Locked In with Ian Bick - How I Survived 30+ Years in Florida & New Jersey State Prisons | Anthony Leahey

Episode Date: April 15, 2026

Anthony Leahey joins Locked In with Ian Bick to share his story of growing up in the foster care system after being put up for adoption as a baby, nearly finding a stable home before being taken back and moved to Florida, where his life began to spiral. As a teenager, Anthony got into trouble and spent time in both youth and adult prisons in Florida before returning to New Jersey at 21, where a murder charge led to a 30-year sentence in state prison. In this episode, he talks about what led him down that path, what life was really like serving decades behind bars, and how he completely changed his life while incarcerated. Anthony also shares how he was given a second chance through clemency from the governor, the powerful moment of receiving forgiveness from the victim’s family, and the lessons he learned through it all. _____________________________________________ #PrisonStory #30Years #TrueCrime #PrisonLife #ExInmate #LockedUp #SurvivalStory #LockedInPodcast _____________________________________________ Connect with Anthony Leahey: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/groups/infamouslifersgroup YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-R_-vNzaXM _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 From Foster Care to Prison (Full Story) 02:59 Childhood Trauma, Foster Care & Early Loss 07:02 Group Homes & Struggling as a Kid 10:08 From Juvenile Trouble to Florida Prison 15:55 Life in Prison as a Teen 21:52 Prison Violence, Survival & Sports 30:03 Release & Struggles Returning to New Jersey 34:03 Bad Decisions, Peer Pressure & Felony Charges 43:41 Arrest, Court & Taking Accountability 48:50 Forgiveness, Growth & Restorative Justice 01:03:27 Clemency & Getting a Second Chance 01:10:42 Reentry & Emotional Impact After Prison 01:18:01 Prison Advocacy & The Lifers Group 01:44:03 Health Issues & Problems in the Prison System 01:58:18 Life After Prison & Job Struggles 02:06:08 Advice, Lessons & Final Thoughts To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Okay, we're about to get caught. In my mind, I'm like, I gotta kill this dude, Chris. Like, this is where this kid Chris is gonna end up. Like, I'm leaving him right there. Like, he's not coming back. As soon as we come out and we get in the car. My name's Anthony Leahy. Everybody calls me tone.

I've served a total of 30 years in prison between Florida and New Jersey. Anthony Leahy talks about growing up in foster care, getting into trouble at a young age, spending time in the Florida prison system being sentenced to 30 years in New Jersey and how he changed his life behind bars and was given a second chance. I grew up in Plainfield, New Jersey. Actually, that's where I was born. Let me clarify that. And when I was born, my mother and my father actually gave me up. And I was actually started bouncing around from Bloomfield, Nutley, Plainfield. and then in and out of state homes, foster homes, group homes. So I can't really say I grew up in Plainfield, but that's where I was born.

That's where I'm from. I probably stayed there to like 81, 82, and then I got sent to Nutley. And then from there, it was just bouncing around between different towns and states, depending on what foster home or group home I was in. Were you adopted right away, or did you go to the homes first? Well, actually, there was only one family that was going to adopt me, and that was a family, the Bullocks. They actually live in Somerville, New Jersey.

And they wanted to adopt me. They had started the whole process. But Diphis, Division of Youth and Family Services, they stopped it because my mother actually came back into the picture and said, no, I have, you know, a stable home to provide. I would like him to come live with me in Florida. So that got stopped, and I actually ended up going to Florida. How old were you when you found out that your parents gave you up? I think my aunt started telling me, like I was like five, six started telling me,

uh, mainly because we started asking questions. Me and my sister, Michelle, like, well, where's my mom? You know, why are we with my aunt? And it was my great aunt, too, was my grandmother's sister. So it was her and then my mother's brother, which is my uncle Anthony. So they let us know everything. And for them, they didn't make it seem like it was like such a bad thing. It was just like, hey, two young.

parents not really equipped to handle the kids at the time and so they gave them the family. Do you remember how that made you feel when you found out? No. Honestly, because then even then, like I actually ended up getting removed from that home because my uncle, it came out later and honestly, I don't remember, I didn't remember any of this. Like I actually just came across through my sister Michelle like all this new information. but apparently my uncle was mentally, physically, and sexually abusing me and my sister. And so we got removed from that home with my uncle and my aunt. And they sent my sister to live with family and they sent me to a boy's home, mainly because I was acting up.

Like, you know, as far as anger and hitting people and stuff like that, I was real young. So they put me into like a state facility instead of sending me with family. Do you think you had any genuine happy moments in your child? childhood looking back on it? Yeah, you know, honestly, I can remember, and it's funny, I actually just started reflecting on this like a couple weeks ago because, you know, my father actually just recently passed away.

And, you know, so I went to his memorial last Saturday up in Pittsburgh, and we were up in the Alleghenies where the military cemetery was at because he was in Vietnam. And so as I'm up there, I'm like, I'm remembering some moments that I had with him that were actually okay. Like, you know, it was fun.

I enjoy myself. Like, yeah, it took me trying to teach me how to fly fish. You know, so I remember little things like that. We went camping a couple times. So, you know, there were some happy moments, I guess you could say, but most of my childhood is state facilities. No real happy moments as far as that goes, like, from a childhood perspective. What do you think was the worst moment in your childhood?

Honestly, the worst. One or two. The first one, you know, they actually put me into like a youth house, a detention center when I was like 12, 13 years old. And so that was crazy because I was a tiny little thing. Like I'm not, you know, that big now. But like back then I was probably like maybe five foot, maybe 120 pounds. And, you know, you put me into this facility with a bunch of teenagers. I mean, there was other kids that were like 13, 14 and stuff like that as well.

but a lot of them were 17, 18. And so it's like the ones that were trying to protect me, I guess you could say, were starting me off with, now, well, you got to learn how to fight. So they're sitting there beating me up in the bathroom trying to teach me how to fight. So it was scary. Like, it was, you know, at first.

Because, you know, you always hear the stories about what goes on in these facilities and people being raped and everything like that. So, you know, luckily I had people around me, but at the same time, it was still nerve-wracking. and I was scared. But, and I think that also made me the person that I ended up becoming at that time, which led me on this whole life of being in the street and ended up in prison eventually. So that's why I say it's one of the worst because it's the part where I feel like I was separated

from being a normal functioning kid in society or at least having the opportunity to be to becoming somebody that was just going to be incarcerated their whole life. like that convict mentality started to be embedded into me early. And I think that was the worst moment in my life because that's what set me on this trajectory that I ended up going. Right before that happened, do you think that there was a career for you

or a dream you had in your mind for the future? Or do you think you never got to fully have that? I didn't get to discover it. You know, it's funny. What I wanted at that moment, you know, at that time, was to be adopted by this family, honestly. Like Karen and Bob Bullock, they had a daughter, Jessica, and a son Jason.

I was their only foster child. They didn't want any more after that. They were like, you know what? We want to adopt this kid. And I was really looking forward to that because they had this nice life living in a nice neighborhood. They had a lake house in Lake George, New York.

Like, I really enjoyed. So I guess that would be my happy moment in my childhood where like, man, this is going to be good. And then they snatched that from me. So, like, that was my dream. right there, like family, and you kind of like, they took that from me. So I didn't really discover any type of talents or skills until I was in prison. What do you think would have happened if you got adopted by them? Do you think you could have avoided the path that would later come?

I believe so. I mean, you know, you never know what happens. You know, it's easy to say, yes, it would have been this great life. But you never know. You never know what had happened. And who would have known, you know, I was just talking to the brother John that was doing a podcast down the hall. And, you know, we were talking about unremediated trauma. And I had that. You know, I didn't remember, you know, as a youth, what was going on and happening to me as a child, you know. And so who knows what would have came out later? Maybe I would have ended up on a path to addiction and, you know, overdosed and died.

Like, who knows? but I would like to think that it would have ended up, I would have ended up with a little better cushion in life, you know, if I would have went with that family. Walk us through your journey to prison. Well, the first, you know, the first time it was, I was down, when I went to Florida with my mom, and this is kind of like, you know, me and my mom are good now.

Like, you know, we had a little rough patch where I was kind of like, I kind of had exed family out of my life with the exception of my one sister, Michelle, at the time, because me and her were the ones that were going through all the trauma together. You know, but while in prison, I actually got back together, you know, like reconnected with my mother. But anyway, you know, I go down to Florida to live with her, you know,

because they stopped the adoption process. And it really wasn't a great environment, you know, for me, in the sense of the guy at the time there that she was, was dating Rick, didn't really like them, didn't really get along with him. And I was just not, and I was already mentally checked out of being somebody normal in society. Like I said, what happened with, you know, the youth house. And so I ended up leaving that household and being on a street and, you know, just running the street, breaking in the houses, stealing cars, smoking weed, selling drugs, running with some of the local gangs down there that Folk Nation

was down there so I was running them a little bit, never actually joined. But I ran with them a little bit just because it was one of the first people I met down there. And so I ended up stealing a car. We actually, there was a rave I was at and we actually, the rave got broken up. So me and the guy were running. And we see a BMW 325I like this little convenience store with the doors open, cars running. So we just hopped in, took it and peeled off. And in the, the, the, the, The craziest part is, like, I'm high. I'm off like six hits of acid. And I'm not really a driver like that at the time.

And so we took these cops in a high-speed chase. Like, I really don't know how I'm still alive. You know, like, we should have crashed and died in that high-speed chase. But I ended up getting a five-year sentence for that, for Grand Theft Auto and assault and battery on a police officer with a motor vehicle because we actually ran a roadblock. And so I go into prison down there in Florida, you know, as a juvenile. And that's where I really, you know, got introduced to prison prison. Because prison is a little different to prison up here as far as there was the racial break.

The racial groups were definitely big and prominent down there when I first went in. So I had to, you know, when I first went in there, obviously it was the white boys that approached me. But I actually ended up running with my boy who was actually, it turns out later, he's one of my cousins. So he was running with this organization called Sutresi, and they were down there in the prison. They weren't too big, but it was just, you know how it is. Like you have like the little groups that have their spaces in the yards. And so, you know, I started running with them because I don't want to run with Aryan Brotherhood. Like I'm just, that's not what I want to do.

I'm not racist. And I'm just not with it. And he was like, bro, you really ain't got to be in a guy. gang. He was like, you could chill with us. You know, you might have to put a little work in, bro. He was like, but you ain't going to be, you know, held to the same level as everybody else. He was like, you don't have to join a gang. He was like, you just got to stick up for yourself, bro, you've got to fight. He was like, that's really what it comes down to in here, protect yourself. As they know you're willing to fight, they're going to leave you alone, but you

know, you might have to prove yourself. And so that was a little rough at first. You know, it's funny. My first fight was over a 25 cent can of soda, a knee high, great knee because I went to the canteen. I come out of the reception unit and I go on to the first wing that I'm going to be on and then I'm told I can go to commissary so I go to the commissary

and you know the commissary at this particular facility was out in the yard area and you can go there every day except like Monday when they restocked and they sold like little sandwiches and everything, ice cream and stuff so I'm like, oh man, let me go out here

got me a little cheeseburger, a soda and like a butterbee can ice cream. I was like, damn, this ain't bad. You know, so I go back to the wing and I'm eating. I set my soda down on the locker and someone's like, yo, the cop's calling you. So I got to go talk to the cop at the bubble. And so I'm going to, I'm talking to the officer. He's telling me about going to orientation and everything like that. He was like, this is the building you got to go to the center and get a little badge and, you know, go up to the orientation building. So I just happen to look out of the corner of my eye and see a guy take my soda.

So like my heart starts racing. I'm getting that little pit in my, I'm like, damn, I'm going to have to fight. And he was kind of big, so I'm like, damn, I'm about to get my ass work. I was like, but I know I got a fight. So I'm walking back, and I'm like basically trying to suit myself up and get courage and stuff like that. And I see the guy and he's taking a sip of my shoulder and I just punch him. I steal off on him right there.

And I thought at first, I was like, oh, I got him. The next thing I was on the floor getting punched on. But from that point on, it was kind of like, oh, okay, the white boy, he'll fight. So that's when some of the white boys approached me. And then that's when I ended up linking up with the other guy, though. He was just like, nah, bro, like, you ain't got to do all that. If you ain't trying to be with the brotherhood because they had, it was A-B down there.

And there was another one. I want to say, I want to say war. I want to say white-ering resistance. I'm not sure, though, so don't quote me on that. But there was a couple more groups there. But, you know, A-B, obviously was the biggest one there at the time. And so it was like I'm being taught a different way now because I'm used to the youth facilities

but now this is different. This is big boy prison like because I didn't last long in the juvenile facility actually sent me up to an adult facility because as soon as I got in juvenile facility, I got in a fight immediately right there and so they shipped me out to Walton correctional institution. And what was the crazy part of that about down in Florida

of two is they didn't keep you in one prison all the time. Like, I would say like every six to eight months, I was probably being shipped to a different prison because they didn't, it seems like almost like in the feds. I heard they do that in the feds as well. Like they don't let guys stay too long depending on who they think you are or what type of connection you might be building up inside of the prison. They want you to come too familiar with the officers, whatever it may be. So I actually went through like 10 or 11 different prisons in three years. I only did three years down there. But it was rough.

It was a rough three years. Actually, my time in Florida was rougher than my entire 27 years. This episode is brought to you by Subaru. Go further in a long-range Subaru hybrid with up to 581 miles per tank in the Forrester hybrid. Longer range, better fuel efficiency. And legendary symmetrical all-wheel drive standard. The Subaru Forestry. or Rester Hybrid. Visit

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Do you think that builds social skills at that age going to different prisons interacting with so many different people? I mean, you're probably exposed to more people than you would be in, say, high school or even college. Yeah, different type of social skills. But yeah, definitely. Like, you know, I definitely didn't want to be the quiet guy in the corner not talking to anybody. And the saving grace, I would say, for me that made my journey in prison a little easier, which is crazy with sports. Like, I played a lot of sports. I played mainly basketball. That was like my main one. And like that's kind of like the icebreaker in prison. Like the sports in prison is kind of like a unifier. It kind of like breaks down some of those racial walls, I guess you could say.

And so for me, I've always fit right into the prison for the most part because the first thing I would do was go to the basketball court. Who's got next? You know, pick me up because I want to play ball. Like I love playing basketball. But I would also play softball if the prison has softball because some of the prisons down there had that soccer. They'd have soccer games. I play soccer. One prison had a volleyball court.

That blew my mind. I'm like, okay, I'm playing volleyball now. So I always met a lot of people and interacted with a lot of people because of sports. And so I would say my social skills came first through that. But I'm still definitely like I was still rough around the edges as far as that goes. But yeah, I developed better communication skills because I was always involved with sports. Because, you know, when you're on a basketball court, you're talking trash to the other guys on it. But you're doing it in a way where it doesn't lead to a fight, even though that's happened.

You know, there's just times where honestly, like, dude don't like the fact that the white boy crossed him over and took him to the hole and then told him about it. And so, you know, he gets in your face. And then, you know, I can't back down because now everybody in the yard's looking at me. So I got to fight. But most of the time it didn't happen because I was always pretty good with how I talk trash to people on the basketball court. I never got too disrespectful. But, yeah, I would say my social skills developed a little because of that, because of being shableness. ship to so many different prisons and having to be able to interact with people because you know,

like, if you don't know how to conduct yourself and carry yourself, the big would be real bad on many different levels. Why do you think Florida is much more or a much more violent atmosphere than, say, New Jersey? Well, I wouldn't say much more violent. I would just say my experience personally because of I was in two different places mentally. When I was in Florida, it's, I I'm in prison, I'm a prisoner, I have to fight, I have to do this, I have to carry a shank, you know, this is what it is. And mainly because I was in a juvenile,

and you know when you're in a juvenile youth facilities, they are usually more violent than some of the adult facilities that I was in. And because, you know, I was say in Florida, it was definitely a lot more organized around gang and prison politics. Whereas in Jersey, when I can, came up here. There's prison politics, but not in the same way that it was in Florida. It's not as

organized. It's not as life or death as far as like, you know, if, you know, you're running with the white boys, then you're running with the white boys. And this is what it is you got to sit with them and if you don't sit with them in the mess hall or you don't work out with them in a yard and you try to cross that racial barrier. There's consequences. There's repercussion. You can get beat up. you can get stabbed. Like, they don't have that really up here. That's not the experience I had up here in Jersey. So I would say it was a little more violent down there

only because of how I was engaging in that prison life. Because, honestly, when I went to the max unit here in Jersey, in Trenton, people were getting stabbed every day. You know, so it's not that it wasn't violent. It's just because the path I was on when I was in up here was different. I was a different person. I become to understand that you don't have to be a violent psychopath to survive prison. Like, you can just be you, but I had to find who that was, too.

And so that's where, like, in my journey in the New Jersey prison system was actually now, I'm discovering who Tone is as a person, as opposed to, you know, one of my handles, I guess you could say, was Tone Capone. Most people call me Tone Capone when I was in that other lifestyle. But when I came up here, I was like, my name's Tone, bro, that's it. No more Capone. I'm not doing that anymore. So my path was different up here than it was in Florida. So if you were to redo your experience in Florida with the mindset you have now,

what do you think would the big difference would be? Man, I would have been involved with all the, you know, because they didn't have, there wasn't a lot of programming, but they had spaces to where you could be. involved with things. Florida, I did discover my music talent. Like, I discovered that I had a knack for just picking up instruments and playing. Like, you know, there was a guy down there you could have a guitar, but it would have to be held in the wreck building. And so when you go to the yard, you can check your guitar out. And so I just seen a guy playing one day. He's like, oh, you want to learn how to play? I'm like, all right. And so he showed me like three chords. And then he,

you know, he's like, I'm going to walk around the track, man, you know, trying to remember what I I taught you. I'm like, all right. So by the time he got back around, I was already playing a song. And he was like, I thought you said you never played guitar before. I was like, I haven't. He was like, man, he was like, bro, you're lying to me. I was like, I'm not lying, but I was like, I never play guitar. I was like, you show me those three chords. And then I heard a song that I know every rose has its thorn. So I started playing, I was like picking that out a little bit. And I was getting it. And then I started playing Sweet Home Alabama a little bit. I was like, because it was like a little catchy melody.

And so he was like, there's no way. And so he started teaching me more and stuff like that and ended up joining one of the prison bands. So I discovered that talent. And I would have pursued that more down there had I had the mindset that I had up here. And I think I would have been on a different trajectory altogether. Now, when you're sitting in Florida,

do you have any resentment towards your mom for bringing you out to Florida to begin with? Yes. Honestly, like, you know, I was cursing her to no end. Honestly, like, and sorry, mom, love you. But I was honestly, because I was just like, you know, why would you bring me down here, knowing that I was about to get adopted by this really nice family? Now, I get it.

You're my mom and you want to get that redo that, hey, you know, you're my son. I'm going to make sure you're good. You know, I love you. I'm going to raise you. I get it. But at the end of the day, I just felt, you know, like, nah, like, I had this great opportunity up there and you brought me down here. So I definitely had a lot of resentment, a lot of bitterness, a lot of unforgiveness towards her and my father, which lasted a long time. How does she react to you getting a prison sentence when she brings you to Florida?

She was devastated. And you know what? And I can't even, like, it's not her fault. Like, you know, that's the one thing that I had to learn. later on, that I learned later on, like, you know, it's easy to blame everybody else for the circumstances you end up in. And yes, I had a rough life, you know, rough childhood. And these are all the indicators of, hey, this kid's going to end up in prison, you know, from a systemic standpoint. But at the end of the day, I made the choices that I made. I didn't have to leave the

household. I chose to. I didn't have to run the street. I chose to. Now, Mind you, I felt like I was getting away from a bad situation, but at the end of the day, I didn't give it the full chance that I should have. But yeah, I had a lot of resentment, a lot of unforgiveness. How much time total do you do in Florida? I only did three years down there. So it was a five-year sentence? It was a five-year sentence.

The great thing about down there, I actually was only supposed to do like nine months. Like, bro, they were giving out 25 days a month good time at the time when I was doing my time down there. And now I think they're at 85%. Like, I don't think they're giving out that good time anymore. So I was only supposed to do nine months, but because I kept getting in trouble, kept getting to fights, you know, going to the hole, they take your good time from you.

The only reason I actually got out is because there was this big court decision, Brit versus Childs. And what Florida was doing was you would get locked up in the hole and they would take the good time you already had, but they would also take future good time. They'd be like, yeah, you can't get good time for six months. And so this big court case saying like, no, you can't take something that they don't have already. So a bunch of guys starting getting time back.

So I had got a piece of paper in the mail one day saying, hey, you got a month left. I was like, oh, okay, that's good. What do you think that experience in solitary as a teenager did, do you? Was it helpful or did it hurt you? No, that definitely at the time, I, I didn't realize it, but it definitely hurt me being locked in that cell because it's literally 23 hours. And I would say sometimes 23 hours in 30 minutes because like honestly when they like they were supposed to let you out for an hour. But most of the time what would happen is like

they would let me out and they be like, all right, you can take a shower. You can go to the yard. You can take a shower and you can use the phone. What you got to do it all in 30 minutes? I'm like 30 minutes I get an hour They're like no not today you get 30 minutes Well I want to see a sergeant Yeah, all right one might be around later And then when you kick up a little more Now it's like okay take this pepper spray in the face

And now go back in your cell you know it's like it's crazy But it hurt me It definitely was help me Not help me but well yeah I'll say it in a negative way Help me become more of a prisoner and have that mentality of, okay, this is prison. I have to really be locked into this. How old are you when you got out of there?

I was 21. You were 21. And do you stay in Florida or do you come back? No, I went back to Jersey. That was by your choice or? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I went to live with my aunt.

You left your mom. Yeah. I went up there to live with my aunt. I felt like it was a better situation. My sister was living there at the time. And I'm just like, okay, you know what? let me piece myself together, but with what? Like, I literally had no skills, like nothing.

There was no, that's the one thing I didn't like about Florida, really. There was not, and for, like, don't get me wrong while I was in there. It's funny, I actually took a, in the rec department, they had this, like, wellness course that they offered. And so I took the wellness course and I ended up actually getting involved in, like, a bodybuilding competition, all types of stuff. I'm in like first place, lightweight division, second place overall. It was crazy.

They brought a guy in from the street. I forget which one it was. He wasn't one of like the main bodybuilders at the time. As a fact, I wish I would have brought those. I'm a screenshot and send those to you so you can see them. Definitely, yeah, we'll put them up in here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it was hilarious. It was funny.

But at that time, I was like, you know what? I wouldn't mind being a personal trainer. But when I got out, I came up here, really all that went right out the window, you know, and I was just kind of like drinking. And I really wasn't doing nothing. Like I was a bum, like a loser. Like, I really had no actual plan to do anything with my life because I wasn't really equipped for that while I was in there.

Like, there was no real, I got my GED while I was locked up in, you know, in Florida, at Indian River Correctional. That was one of the juvenile facilities I was at. And that was it. No real, like, life's life. skills like teaching you about hey you're about to be out in society and you're about to be an adult like you need to learn what it is that you're going to do you need to begin to plan there was none of that and then the people i was around in the prison they're prisoners and their whole plan

getting out is committing more crime i'm no i'm a link up my bro he's got some weed for me or he's got some coke for me or or nah my my people are up here they already got everything set up you know they control the neighborhood so that's where i'm going like so in my mind, I'm like, okay, I'm going to go up there to Jersey. They gave me a few names. I'm going up here, link up with these guys. You know, I'm going to start going to AC and picking up money. You're doing whatever it is that I got to do in order to make money. I'm thinking from a criminal standpoint, like a prison mindset, a street mindset. So that's what I approached when I went out there to Hillsborough. Uh, uh, that.

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And so he introduces me one week to this guy, Chris. And so Chris starts hanging out. And him and my brother-in-law with my sister Michelle, her husband at the time, they get real tight as well. And so one day that, you know, they come to me and there's like, hey, yo, man, you know, we got to get this guy, Dave, man. He owes some money and this and that. And I'm like, all right, cool, whatever.

And my mom's like, all right, it's go time. Because I was at it. The funny part is like, this is a. nice neighborhood and I'm like, there's really nothing to do. So I'm like finding crime. Like, I'm seeking out like, who's around here doing dirt that I can get money with? Because the crazy part is, is a person linked me up with a job, a landscaping job. And I quit after like four days. And I quit because I was just like, I'm tired of waking up five in the morning. Now mind you, this is four days in. I don't want to wake up five in a

morning, I'm working eight to 10 hours a day for $110, $110, $120 a day. I could make $1,100 in two minutes. So for me, in my mind at the time was like, I'm not worried about waking up at five in a morning and working 10 hours. I'm not doing that. Like, I'm trying to make money now so I can go get my own place and everything like that. I'm like, I'm not even thinking about the basics, like getting a driver's license. I didn't even get a driver's license

So anyway They're like look You know we're going to get this guy Now mind you Now they start adding stuff like Oh we're going to kill him I'm like kill him for what So apparently in their mind it was

This guy slept with this guy Chris's girl And slept with my sister Michelle That was the accusation And I even added something in there more, like, because they seem like I'm kind of hesitant, like, like, nah, that was like a rape. That was like, like, your sister didn't want that and this and that. And I'm like, what?

You know. But I still didn't want to go. I'm like, man, this ain't something. I don't know about this. So anyway, it was late one night. Like, we were partying, dude. We actually, I decided in my mind, like, you know what? I'm not doing this no more.

And I'm going to take this kid Chris with me. Like, we're out of here. I was going to go back to Florida. So we throw this little party like a going away party. And my plan is the next morning I'm going back to Florida. Already got the bus tickets. That's it. So they wake me up like maybe one in the morning.

The kid Chris wakes me up. He's like, yo, come on, bro. We got to walk Dave home. I'm like, all right. He's like, let's go. I'm like, all right, let's go. So we go to walk him home and we cut through this little wooded area. And we get all the way through the area.

We're about to get onto the street. And the kid Chris is like, I forgot my keys and I'm like all right so he goes back the kid Dave goes to help him got like a little

little pin flashlight or something like that and I'm watching him they get down into the path a little bit and then I see the kid Dave Chris spin around and I see the kid Dave

hunch over I'm like I know this guy's not doing this so I run like he's stabbing the guy and then so now the guy Dave so he's on the ground And so Chris is like, man, you got to finish it off.

Now I'm drunk. I'm high out of my mind. Like I took the knife at his hand, but honestly, I don't remember anything. Like, everything was like blank. I'm not experiencing anything at that moment at that moment. And I'm just in my mind. I'm just like, you know, I can't believe I'm in this position. Like, it really started to hit me right there.

And I really don't remember what happened. Like next thing I knew, I'm helping drag this kid's body off the path, taking all his identification. It's raining out, so not really worried about, like, evidence or anything like that as far as on the body or us leaving any trace behind. And so we go back and go back, go to the bus station, get on the bus, and start going to Florida. And, well, he ran upstairs and told Keith,

my other guy my other co-defendant everything that happened and so we get on the bus we go down to Florida I'm actually at my mom's house and I get a phone call and it's from Keith and he's like

man I can't believe you guys did what you did and this and that blah blah I'm like in my mind you know alarm bells are going off already I'm like yeah bro I don't want to talk to you so I hang up I already know like I know what it is and so the kid Chris is like, well, I was like, I don't know, but I think he's trying to get us to say

something. So he's like, I know what to do. So he calls Keith back and he's talking to him on the phone trying to like throw everything off just in case, you know, the calls being recorded and everything like that. So he's on there saying like, nah, Keith, you, you did that. You know, you know what was going on. And I'm just looking. I'm like, bro, hang the phone up. So now in my mind, the alarm bells are going off for a bunch of different reasons. I'm like, okay, we're about to get caught. I'm not going back to prison. So in my mind, I'm like, I got to kill this dude, Chris,

because I know he's going to tell. Like, this is what's in my mind going on. Like, I'm all checked out now. I'm already back in, it's time. And so we end up going to this pool hall. And while we're at the pool hall, we meet these two girls. And so they're going to drive us to this spot.

And so down there, we're in Clearwater, Florida at the time. And there's this spot. It's like a little secluded area. It's like this train trussle where people go there to like jump off the bridge into the water or just chill, smoke weed, have little, you know, bonfires and stuff like that. So I'm telling them that like, let's go, let's go there. Because in my mind, though, like this is where this kid Chris is going to end up. Like I'm leaving him right there.

Like he's not coming back. But as soon as we come out and we get in the car, like just when, you know, all the police swarm, you know, they already had the surveillance going on. Two detectives were already came down from New Jersey. And so they lock us up. And, you know, I'm sitting in the holding tank. And I'm just like, all right, whatever. Like, there's literally no, like, I'm not crying.

I'm not, I'm just back in prison move. I'm thinking about, all right, we're going to go on a tear. I got to see where the white boys are at. I got to see who's running a tear. Who's going to be the pod boy? Like, I'm trying to figure everything out in my mind. I'm just. So they come get me to interrogate me, and they don't even really interrogate me.

They just, like, play the tape of my co-defendant telling. You know, and so we end up getting transferred back up here. And when we get into the county jail, they put him on one part and me on the other, and then my other co-defendant, Keith, they put him up in PC. So it turns out that when we were down in Florida, the police came just on a routine. questioning like hey this guy David is missing have you seen him we heard he came here for a party so my co-defendant Keith was like you know what I think you better take me to the police station I have a story to tell you like no question like no they didn't have to press them they didn't have to

do anything just not bring me to the station and he gave like three different statements like three long statements so they got him in PC they got me on one pot and my other co-defendant on another And so he calls me to the door one day, Chris. And he was just like, he was like, bro, I'm sorry, bro. He's like, you know, he's like, is there beef? You know, what's going on? And I, you know, I'm sitting there. I'm talking to him through the door and I'm just like, in my mind, I'm like, you know what?

I ain't got time for this. So I just tell him, I'm like, listen, bro, you're good. Like, you know what? It's my fault because I should have never been involved. Like, I'm here. It's my own doing. You're good, bro. You ain't got to worry about me.

I said, the only thing I'm going to tell you is if you want your bid to go smooth, I was like, bro, don't get involved with gangs, don't get involved with drugs, don't mess around with homoes, like, like, you can't be involved with none because that whole scene in prison is what's going to lead you to everything. Don't gamble. Don't do any of that. He was like, okay, all right, but are you sure? I'm like, bro, you're good, but don't worry about it.

And first thing he did was joining him. Like one of the first things he did. His bid was rough for him. Do you think you had it in you to take Chris's life? Yeah. Like honestly, like, yeah. In my mind, it was a done deal already. And I knew this.

It was like a little, you had the regular fresh water over here. Not fresh water. You had the regular water here. And then like on this other side is like a little swampy type of area. And there's known to be, you know, crocs and gaiters and all that stuff over there. So my mind, like he was done. Like, because the only thing I was thinking of was 30 to life. Like life in prison.

Like, I don't want to be in prison at that time. Like, in my mind, it was like he has to go. So, yeah, I definitely, I would have took him. He would have been done. How long do you stay in Florida for before they extradite you to New Jersey? Uh, I think maybe, maybe a month. And it was crazy because, you know, in that month, like, we're in the county jail.

They sent us up to the wing to the pod. We were in Pinellas County Jail. And I see like four or five guys that I already know that, you know, that I had did time with. You're like, oh, man, what the hell? What are you doing? I'm like, yeah, it is what it is, bro. You know, I'm in convict mode now.

Like, it doesn't even matter. So we're down there like a month and then they extradited us back up here. Are you formally charged yet? Or that doesn't happen until New Jersey? No, it doesn't happen until we get up here. And the whole time, like, I'm now. I'm in like legal mode, you know, so when I'm like, all right, you know, I get with one of the guys on a tier and I'm breaking everything down to him. And he's like, he was like, no, you should be able to

be able to fight this, like, especially the way they, because the cops actually came from Jersey to Florida, didn't have a warrant at first. And we came across some of the police reports where it said, you know, that these two detectives come down and, you know, we're going to make an arrest. However, the NCIC, SCIC, I think, something like that. It was like their database and how they get the warrants transferred to their, to the computers in their cars, hadn't transferred anything over yet. So they didn't know if it was actually there. You just got the officer telling you that, yeah, we got a warrant for his arrest. It's on the way. So they technically arrested us without a warrant. And then as far as my co-defendant statements, it was crazy. My co-defendant Keith,

the one that made the three statements. All his statements were, talking about Chris, like Chris came back in, Chris had blood on his sleeve of sweater, Chris came and told me everything that happened, never mentions me as actually having any part, just saying that Anthony was with him when he came back into the house. And so I was like, well, how did you have, if he's talking about Chris the whole time, how were you talking about me? Because in the affidavit, for the warrant for the arrest and the affidavit, it's, said that Keith said he's seen blood on the sleep of Anthony sweater, which wasn't, that's not what he said. He said, Chris. So this is like we're attacking like, nah, this ain't, this ain't, they

ain't right. However, I end up with like a pool attorney. And he's telling me, he was like, no, this is not what you think it is. And he's, and he's explaining to me the law and everything. Like, no, this is not it. And then the whole time, he's actually talking to my aunt saying, hey, tell this guy he's got to take a plea bargain. Like, he is going to get life in prison because his co-defendant is going to take the stand against him and he's going to be sent up the river and he's never coming back.

He's even saying, talking about the death penalty at the time, which at the time, Jersey had got rid of the death penalty, which are issues I brought up later on appeal. But anyway, so my aunt is constantly coming and talking to me crying. You got to take this plea bargain. Like, none of those issues you think are issues. They're not there. This and that.

And so I end up taking the plea bargain. And what was the plea for? 30 years. 30 years flat. No, 30 with a 30. Like, I had to serve 30. At the time, I thought it was just 30 years. But it was actually a 30 with a 30.

No possibility of parole. You have to serve that 30 years because it's the mandatory minimum for a first-degree murder. And that's the rule they came up with. and they're like tough on crime sentencing and the laws they started passing in Jersey. One of them was that the mandatory minimum for a first-degree murder or felony murders,

which actually we were charged with felony murder because it was technically a robbery. And you have to get 30 years. So that was what I copped out to. What about your co-defendants? What do they get? He copped out to 30 years. My co-defendant Chris.

My co-defendant Keith actually got nine with an 85. Because he's the one that. because he was, it gave him reckless manslaughter. He actually would have got a lot more time, but I didn't get on a stand and lie. Like my other co-defendant got on a stand and was trying to send him up the river. Like he hired me,

like he was trying to make it seem like he was hired to commit the murder by Keith, which would have been, he would have got a life sentence for that if he got found guilty of that. But when they put me on a stand, it was funny, like, how his lawyer's eyes lit up. Because when the prosecutor was asking,

the prosecutor put me on a stand, I was like, uh, so did, Keith told you to go kill this guy, right? I'm like, no. So his lawyer's like,

what? But, you know, I'm not, it's not me. Like, that's not in me. Like,

I'm not lying on somebody, uh, because that's just the code that was instilling me. Like, I'm not snitching. I'm not telling. I'm not saying.

And I'm definitely not lying. Like, so this is my mindset at the time. And, but I definitely, I would have did the same thing again. Like, no,

he didn't know that that was going to happen. And in the discovery, do you find out how they got onto Keith? Yeah, I knew. I knew everything. Like, because I got my discovery and I'm sitting there pouring over discovering. And I'm reading the statements and I'm getting mad. And I'm like, I'm looking for ways to actually get to them. How can I get to them in PC?

But the saving grace for me and like, I would say the beginning of my change, it kind of started right there in a sense. because there was, you know, there was an older guy in a tear. This guy, Hector, Spanish dude, and, like, he's seen me. And I was having some conversations. And, as a matter of fact, he was Latin King. And so I'm sitting there talking to him, and I'm just like, I'm like, bro, I need y'all, man. I need to get this guy. And so he looked at me and he was like, he was like, bro.

He was like, let that go. He was like, because he knew me a little bit. He was from playing field, you know, and him as bros be out there in Plainfield. and they had this little section out there. And I knew a couple of them. And so he was just like, look, he was like, let that go, bro. He was like, you need to focus on doing this damn time and getting the hell out of prison.

If that happens and they find out you have something to do with it, you're going to get even more time. So you need to worry about getting this time off of you. So that was a little bit of like a saving grace in that sense. So I just like let that go. And I was like, whatever. I was like, you know what? I know everything that happened.

I know what you did. And the crazy part is, about six months before I got out, he signs up on my J-Pay, my email account, and gives me this whole thank you. He sent me a letter and everything, like a physical letter as well.

I can't say how much I appreciate you not getting on a stand in line and this and that and telling the truth. You know, if it wasn't for you, you know, I would have been in prison with you. I probably would have had life, this and that. So I thought that was, cool. Like, all right, cool. You waited

to the end of my bid and reached out to me and said, like, where were you the entire bid? Because, like, normally in that situation, you would expect, oh, I'm going to rock with you, bro, I got you, I'm going to make sure you got money on your commissary because you made sure I didn't end up with this all this time in prison. Did he already know you were coming home at that point, or

he didn't know? He didn't know. And, you know, it was kind of odd, you know, I kind of held information back from him, because I was just like, it seems odd that, number one, you would reach out to me now. And so the reason, here's the reason he reached out to me.

A monumental thing happened for me in my bid. David's mom reached out to me. David, you know, the victim in the crime. So his mom ends up reaching out to me. But first, before his mom did, David's brother did. And so

here is the crazy part. I'm in choir, practice in the prison. At the time, I'm the choir director of the, you know, for the prison church community in Rawley, Church of the Reconcil. And this guy comes up to me, one of the choir members, and he said, hey, there's a kid here. I'm on the wing with him. He's on the vet tier. So that for, you know, the veterans organization had their own tier for military. For guys who were veterans that had a veterans program, they started like kind of like a cognitive behavioral therapy, music therapy, stuff like that for the guys that were vets.

So he's like, hey, there's a guy in the tear with me. He said he knows you wants to have a sit down, what you can talk to you. I was like, well, how does he know me? He said, well, he's the brother of the victim of your crime. So, you know, alarm bells start going off of my head because I'm like, oh, man, you're like, here. They notice the moment that you fear the most. Like, when you are involved in a crime that takes a life, the one thing you think about the whole time in prison is,

when am I going to cross paths with one of his relatives? And so now in my mind, like, here we go. Like, you know, I went to one of my, you know, and at this time, I'm like fully out the game. I'm not involved with anything. I'm hardcore in church. I'm going to college, getting my college degrees. You know, I'm in the life group.

I'm not the president at the time, but I'm like, I think I was a treasurer. You know, they're like, I'm hardcore going. But in my mind, I'm like, like, it's time. Like, it's go time. Like, I might have to, like, really defend myself and might have to, like, end up killing this guy and it's going to be like I can't you know so and he the guy seen the expression on my face is like bro he's like it ain't any that type of party like he's he doesn't want any type of drama he just wants to talk to you so I'm like all right so I actually went first and sat down

with the president of the veterans organization uh because we were on we were all up in that same area like the lifers group veterans group uh toastmasters all the inmate run organizations were kind of like in the same area. And so I was very familiar with this guy. So I talked to him like, hey, look, this is what's going on? So he was like, whoa. And so he's like, all right, I'm going to set something up in a veteran's office and we'll do it there.

He's like, this way, because if he's a vet, I know he's going to listen to whatever the hell I tell him to do, ain't nothing going to kick off. So I'm like, all right. And so we set it up and I go there. It's like a Sunday morning. I miss church and everything. I go there for this. And I walk into the room.

guy stands up, shakes my hand. We sit down. He was just like, I forgive you. It was crazy because at that time, like the crazy part is at the time, when he says that, I'm also like, besides the choir director,

I'm one of the leaders in the community of the church. And like, I'm working on a sermon at the time about forgiveness. So to have that happen simultaneously. So he was like, look, bro, like, I forgive you, bro. He was like, I know everything to have and I've read the discovery. He said, I know about your life. I know everything that you've been through.

And he was like, bro, I've been here for a year and a half watching you. And, Ian, you know, a guy in a prison for a year and a half and you killed his brother and he's never put his hands on you. Like, that blew my mind in that moment. And I was like, and he was like, bro, I've been watching. He was like, and honestly, like, I've seen that you. are not that person anymore that you used to be like, I see what you doing at church. I've heard you preach. I see what you do with the lifers group. And he was like, he's like everybody on my tier, like the vet tier. I knew most of the guys on the vet tier. And, you know, in the prison at the time, I was the

photographer as well. So we would take guys pictures at visit or if they just want to take some pictures to send home to their family. We would take their pictures. The lifers group ran that, the photo project. So I would go to the wing all the time and drop pictures off. I've dropped pictures off to him. That's the other thing. Like, man, I've been interacting with this guy on a regular basis for a year and a half. But he said, everybody that I spoke with and said, oh, who's that guy? Oh, that's tone. You don't know tone. Oh, man, good guy. Help you out, whatever you need. So he was getting nothing but good report. It's like, so at the time he came to the prison, I'm in full goal mode of just, you know, I found out who I was. I'm walking in my

identity of who I am. And it's all good. You know, I'm not messing around. I'm not gambling. I'm not smoking weed in the yard. Like, you know, because when I first went down, I'm doing the normal prison stuff, you know, making hooch, you know, smoking weed, gambling, playing basketball, got like maybe one or two fights. That was it.

Like, I was never on no tough guy stuff. Like, you know, most people that know me in Trenton or Rawaway, I'm just known for being tone or white chocolate. That's one of my other names, white chocolate, mainly from playing basketball and a lot of the rapping that I used to do in there too like I did a lot of rap I rapped with a church community

I did gospel hip hop and I was just also part of this movement we had a little movement called war correspondents that we started in Trenton it actually started with poetry one of the guys, two of the guys that got on clemacy were part of that to Timitia Harris his name's Sung God and his other kid

Joachim Wise and they're both out now as well too through the clemency So I'm just known for just being Cool, laid back Like, not no tough guy stuff Like and uh And so this kid's seen that Like like man you know

You're not at all what I thought you would be And he was like you know And so my mom is gonna reach out to you as well And she did you know At first I got a letter in the mail her Forgiving me Man I wish I would have brought that I'm gonna send you a copy that too

Because that really blew my mind like to think about about a mother sitting down at a table to write a letter because she wrote a letter not just forgiving me but she also wrote a letter on my behalf

to the prosecutor saying we think he needs to be at a prison like that and that blew my mind like what moved her to be. Relax and let Ralph's delivery handle your grocery shopping this week.

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Oh, man, it brought me to another level of mental and emotional freedom, honestly. And it also helped me in my journey with forgiving my father and fully forgiving my mother, because I forgave my mother. But I still, you know, honestly was holding still some resentment. But, you know, that moment right there, like, man, that really opened the door. And I was already getting there just because, you know, because I got saved, you know, when I was in prison. You know, so I joined the church community. I get baptized. And, you know, for lack of a better term, you know, I grow and mature spiritually, rise up through the rank, so to say.

And so now I'm teaching Bible studies and I'm preaching. So I'm preaching the word about forgiveness, love, and all of that. But the whole time, I'm not really tapped into it fully myself because I still have these. little spaces of unforgiveness in my heart towards family members. And at the time, too, even though it's crazy, it's crazy. Like, I'm in the church, I'm a leader, but I'm also, there's still some prison politics that I was following in the sense of, I don't talk to child molesters. I'm not talking to you.

Don't come near me. Don't sit at the table with me in a mess hall. You're definitely not locking in a cell with me. You know, like I still had that. Like, there's a line. But that moment right there destroyed that line. And it was funny. It just seemed like God always found ways to put me in a situation

to where I had to deal with people that I normally wouldn't deal with from a prison politics standpoint. You know, there was a guy in there that, you know, he was a child molester, but he was in the church. And he had this high-pitched, super feminine voice as well. and when I was announced, you know, in front of the body as one of the leaders now in the community, it seemed like he was the first person to run to me.

Oh, I need to talk to you, Tony. And he had this high-pitched voice. So he was like, Tony, I need to talk to you. And I'd be like, oh, my God. And I would look around to see, like, who's looking? Because I'm like, I don't want anyone to see me talking to this guy because he's a child molester. And a lot of times I would avoid him. Like, I'm not talking to you.

And so these, you know, the more I read the word of God, obviously, the more it got inside of me and the more it began to break open those spaces. And the more I would talk with the in-house pastor at the time, this got Russell Owens, this got Howard Thompson, just got Phil Reardon. And like, these three guys were very instrumental in helping me see things differently. Like, you know, bro, who are you to judge? Like, you know, you're in here for someone dying. You took somebody's life. Like, so who were you to look at this? this guy and say, like, he's not worthy of God's forgiveness. Like, if you're going to say God is, you know, forgiving and it's for all, then, you know, that word all means all. There's no, like, exclusionary clause within all that says, except for sex offenders and homosexuals. Because that was kind of like the thing guys would do, you know, in prison. Like, you know, you've been, you were in there long enough to know, like, there's this divide. Like, no, you stay over there. I stay over here. Like, don't talk to me, don't look at me. But I couldn't shake this guy. He was, even when I got shipped out of the prison and shipped to Rawaway, he was, he ended up coming in.

Like, I'm in the chapel one day in Rawaway. I'm thinking I'm free of this guy and I'm talking to somebody and that's all I hear. Anthony, hey Tom, I'm here. I'm like, oh my God, can't shake this guy. So, yeah, so like I was already on the journey to like really breaking those walls down. but this specific incident it got me like it broke everything fully open I was like you know what Lord you got it like

because for her to be able to not only forgive me but to say hey I want to help you get out of prison that was a very big moment in my life very big moment how long into your sentence was that 26 years like it was like literally and this is why I know like

for me there's no coincidences. And this is what also strengthens my faith in the Lord is that essentially all my appeals were already done. There was like I already fixed my mind. Like I'm trying to get out like they're passing new laws about juveniles and youth offenders. So I'm like, oh man, I fall under this youth offender, you know, young adult.

You know, technically they should give me a second look and let me out. I'm applying for it, but they don't make it retroactive. So they passed the law in Jersey but they don't make it retroactive And so that gets shot down All my appeals got shot down So I'm just in my mind

I'm like all right I had hope too I'm like around 2018 Was when that youth defender bill Like was coming out And so me and a bunch of other guys Were excited And you know nothing came of it

And that was devastating Because it's like man Because now I know in my mind I'm ready for the world now But nope got shut down. So, you know, at this time, I'm just like, you know, it is what it is. You know, I'm going to have to end up serving this whole time, which sucked.

But at the same time that this executive clemency order, this executive order gets put out by Governor Murphy, primarily because of the ACLU, they did all the legwork. Rebecca, you walkway. She was probably one of the primaries on there. And she, you know, she really pushed this. Then you have a bunch of Alicia Hubbard. Alex Shalom. There's a bunch of people from the ACLU that were like really working and fighting because they understood that because they didn't make this law retroactive, the youth defender law,

and because they were dragging their feet on a juvenile law. It's like, you know, nationwide, they've been letting juveniles out of prison. If they were locked up, you know, if you were locked up 17 and down to 14, 13, it's like, no, if this guy's been in prison 15, 20 years already, give him a second chance because you're locking a juvenile up and giving a life and saying there's no hope for him. You're saying he's incorrigible and can't be rehabilitated. That doesn't make sense. So Jersey, while every other state is letting guys out of prison that were like the juveniles, Jersey is sitting there dragging their feet. And they're still dragging their feet. There's still guys that are juveniles that are sitting in prison right now,

fighting, been fighting for two, three years, four years to get into court so they can get their second chance hearing just to get out of prison. So the ACLU understood this. So this. So this, is one of the reasons they really pushed for the executive order. So it was around that time that this woman reached out to me. It was a little bit before. When she first reached out to me and then she said, is there anything I could do? Let me write you a letter.

I'll write it to the prosecutor. I was actually about to hire an attorney. And there's this clause, this exception within the rules of the court for New Jersey. And it's called a showing of good cause. So like once you have a sentence, if it's a mandatory minimum sentence, you cannot get out of prison

until the mandatory minimums serve, no matter what. The only exception is if you get, to get out early on a sentence is a showing of good cause. And that good cause term is very vague. Like there's no, and so what I found out when I first was going to hire a lawyer, he was telling me that this good clause term

is really for prosecutors that are trying to get people out of jail who might be a federal witness or something like that. going to give information up on somebody that's in prison or somebody that's out there. And so they'll work something out to get him out. He was like, you could possibly, the prosecutor's going to have to agree. The prosecutor has to agree or else you got no shot. And it was going to cost like $2,500 to $5 grand for me to even be able to. And I didn't have that money.

And so I'm wrestling with that. I'm trying to get down, I'm trying to put something together, a brief together. And I got some guys in the prison helping me out. and that's when this executive order for clemency comes out. She had already wrote a letter saying, okay, I'll write a letter to the prosecutor. So the letter she wrote me was actually addressed to the prosecutor. So when the clemency comes out,

at first I'm not even filing because I didn't think it fit my fit into any of the categories because they had certain categories. The main category was trial tax. So it was a guy that gets locked up and he's facing, let's say, he gets a plea offer for seven years, but he turns it down. And as a punishment of making them take him to trial, when he gets founds guilty, they give him 50 years. So they call that trial tax. Like you're punishing this guy for going to trial, knowing that he didn't do it.

So, you know, like one of the guys that got out, my boy, Third Eye, Rashon Barkley, that happened to him. They gave him 50 to life. 50. And I forget 25 to life, 30 to life. They gave him 50 to life. And when the clemency came around, he still had 18 more years to go before he was eligible for parole. Like, he'd have been in his 70s when he went up for parole.

So this clemency was monumental. Like, so he got out on it as well. So he's one of the ones time. He was like, bro, you fit the category. So we start putting everything together. My main push was this letter. Like, literally the only reason I even had like, one guy from the ACLU, oh my God, it wasn't Alex Shalom.

Peter Bloom was another one that was working on it. And so he heard my story. One of my friends, this guy, Ron G, he's home to up to Clemency. He put me in touch with him and said, hey, just talk to him. So I talked to him and tell my story. And, you know, he's kind of like, I don't know, bro, you might not fit. And I was like, you know, I even got a letter from, you know, the victim's family. He was like, well, you should have led with that.

So he was like, man, he was like, and you're working on a master's degree because at time I was enrolled in the master's program. He was like, all right, he was like, just send me all your stuff and I'm going to see what I could do. And, you know, he puts me in touch with the public defender's office. And, you know, now I'm here. You know, now I'm home because of that. What year into your sentence was that?

That was the clemacy or the letter that I got from. The clemency. The clemency was, it started 2024. I filed in 2025. I filed, my petition got filed in February of 2025. They came to see me in July. They told me

you're gonna get it. He said, we gotta give it to the governor. Most likely he's not gonna shoot it down because we're recommended you. We'll let you know what's going on hopefully by September. So they see us in July. September rolls around nothing.

So now I'm panicking. Me and like the seven other guys they have seen were panicking. We're like, oh man, they're not going to give it to us. October rolls around. I still haven't heard nothing. Like we're calling the office. Like, oh, what's going on?

And then end of October, they come back and see us. You got it. You're out of here. You're leaving the 13th. How many years did you serve total? 27. So they took off three years with that clemency? Essentially, yeah, they just took off three years.

But that's big. Like, you know. that's huge yeah especially when you're mentally prepared to do that yes absolutely it's it's like i knew like this was the time and it's just how everything was unfolding and the craziest part is and if you ever get a chance to speak to my boy shylo he'll tell you he's Kevin lee he's the new president uh he took my place when i left the prison he became the president of the life group uh you know me and him did the whole journey together i met him in shrenton and we were you know we were close ever since

a Jamaican do. And so at the end of last year, at the end of 2024, we're up, late nights in the dorm, we're talking, and 2025 is about to roll in, it's New Year's Eve. And, you know, we're sitting there talking and I just look at him, he's like, what? I was like, this is it, bro, we're out.

I said, this is like, like, I'm out of here in 2025, but I know it, I feel it. I said, my, this rest of the, this rest, to this year is going to be preparing. I said, bro, I want you to be ready. And you and the other guys, you know, to take over. I'm going to start pulling my side. I need to really focus on what it means to be out of prison. Now, mind you, I don't know anything. Like, like, there's no guarantee about this clemency. I'm not even banking on that. I'm actually banking more on like the lawyer working with me on this reconsideration of

sentence because of the letter. And I was like, you know, no matter what happens, I'm leaving this prison this year. And it's either I'm going home or I'm going to a camp spot to where I go to the camps and begin to transition to the halfway house because I need to start focusing more on that. So like I knew 2025 was my year. I just didn't know what it was. I didn't know if I was going home or if I was going to the camps to transition to the halfway house. Now do you think the timing of when the brother and the mother forgave you was important? Like imagine if they did that earlier in your sentence, would it have had the same effect on you? Overall, yes, I believe it would have the same effect as far as getting me to the next

level emotionally and helping me heal and helping me see forgiveness in a different way. Depending on how early, I would say that, depending on how early. Like super early in my bid, like, no, I don't think it would have, I don't think I would have felt the same impact, like first five years in my bid or something like that. because I'm still I'm still a prisoner at that time. Like, I'm just still a convict. I actually identify, like, I'm a convict.

I'm a prisoner. Like, that's what I am. And so, I don't think it would have hit the same way that I didn't did this point. Because by this point, like, I'm a fully matured person with an actual identity, with an actual vision,

with an actual purpose, with a better understanding of myself. No one's perfect. Nobody has it all figured out. We're always growing. But I was definitely much further along in my life at that point. And so the timing for me was perfect. Like it was perfect simply because of what space I was at mentally and spiritually at that time.

And like I said, even the timing of I'm putting a sermon together about forgiveness. And I still have never talked to my life. father. So I actually had my first conversation with my father not too long after that, which was, it was a great conversation. It was short, but it was good. It, like, tore that, you know, it took the scab off, like, and it opened that up for it. When you're involved in the loss of someone's life, does the regret and remorse set in immediately months or days or weeks or years after? When does that hit you? Years after. Like, honestly, like, in the beginning, it's The impact of what happened and David being killed and me being responsible.

Like I take no shorts and do not try to sugarcoat or leave myself of any like, oh, no. Like, no, like, I took his life, like as simple as that. Like, because honestly, I know I could have stopped it. Like, I could have easily stopped that whole situation. The impact didn't hit till later. And here's the crazy story. going to sound weird. But like, so I get saved, you know, I'm in the church, and I'm talking with the older brothers

in the church, and they're the ones that are like trying to help. Because I'm still so rough around the edges when I first get, I'm still a convict. I'm still kind of cold. I'm closed off emotionally. I really have no attachments to the outside world except for my sister Michelle and my aunt. She had passed away. So it's really just my sister Michelle. And even her, I get a little distant with, you know,

not because she did anything, but just because it's easier in prison when you're serving time to not have a connection to the world. Because it hurts. Like it hurts when you get pictures of your knees growing up and you're not there. It hurts around the holidays. You know, it hurts. So it's easier to, you know what? I don't have a family.

You know what I'm saying? Like it's easier to be a convict than stay connected to the street. when you're serving that much time. At least it was for me and some of the guys that I dealt with. What do you think you missed the most from being in prison for 26 years? Miss?

Well, honestly, yeah, and you know what's crazy? Is the day I was leaving prison, me and like two or three guys were crying. And so one of the, there was a new kid on a tear, like, like he's fresh, bro. Like, he'd been in prison maybe two years.

years. So he's looking at me and he asked me because I took his pictures a couple of times on visits. So he's like, he's like, told him, bro, why are you crying? You acting like you don't want to leave. And so I told him, I was like, I said, what you don't get is, I said, that man right there and I pointed to this guy Marcus, his name's Marcus Vargas. And me and him, you know, we came up through the trenches together. And we grew together in the prison system. And him and other guys like Kim, like we were family for each other where you don't have any. Because not everybody in prison. In fact, most people in prison don't have a strong family support network.

Like, it's rare that you see guys in prison, at least the experience that I had, where they got someone coming up and beating the door down every week to visit them, put money on their books all the time, making sure they got letters coming to them at all the holidays and birthdays. Like, most guys don't have that. And so, and also, when you're looking for someone to talk to, when you got something weighing heavy on you, most of the time your family can't relate

because they're not similarly situated. They're not in prison. So they really can't relate to the pressure. Because I've tried to talk to family, like my sister. And while my sister gets it because she's been through some of the struggle with me as far as when we were kids and everything that we went through.

Because, like, honestly, like the abuse and stuff we went through was intense. Like just with my uncle. I didn't even remember the stuff for my uncle until he had actually passed away. And so I sent, oh, I'm sorry to my sister. And she sent me back like a vicious email. Like, fuck him.

What do you mean, sorry? After everything he did to us, and I'm like, whoa. I'm like, and so then that's when stuff started flooding back. But it wasn't just him. It's like when we live with my father, like our stepmom was abusing us and stuff like that. Like we'd be chained up in a closet for a couple days. No food, just some water. Like, like, it was rough for us.

But even though we went through that trauma together, there were still just certain things she couldn't connect with because she'd never been inside. And so, you know, these brothers that I built a relationship with over time in prison were family. Like these guys, I look at them like, that's my brother. And, like, got love for him. So the fact that I'm leaving them behind in prison, like, that hurts.

Like, I'm out here and, like, you're not. And because I know how intense the pressure is in prison and how bad it feels and how much it sits on you, especially when you're serving a life sentence. Like, but it hurts even more. Like, so I try to stay in touch with them, talk to them, you know, and everything like that. But leaving them behind. So I missed that bond, that fellowship that I had with them guys, honestly, the work I was doing with the life group. You know, I definitely miss a lot of the stuff that I was doing in there because I'm not doing it yet out here. It's definitely something I'm pushing my way into those spaces.

But so I missed that. I missed the church that I was involved with. You know, I forged some good relationships in there with them. And, you know, so I missed that aspect of it. And like the fact that I had carved out this life for myself in there to where I had responsibilities, a role to play, to where I'm looked up to, you know, by a lot of the guys in the prison. simply just because of who I was and the things that I was doing in the prison.

I had a very good reputation that got built up over time and that's what I'm missing a sense of having that them things to do, them people to help, to reach out to, and then having that cushion to fall back on as well where I know I can turn to this person

and talk to them at any time and they're going to understand everything that I'm going through whereas out here I can't always get that. I'm fortunate to have somebody in my life that can relate to my experience for the most part. So, you know, and she's a rock. You know, she's been there for me, met her about seven years ago. And, you know, it's just, it's been good.

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makes integration back into society and reentering into society a lot harder for someone that's spent that much time inside? I mean, you spent more time in prison than you have out on the street. Yeah, I calculated it one time. And I included not just prison. like when I say like I've been in group homes

I've been in residential boys homes one's called Bonnie Bray Woodbridge Diagnostic Center Somerset Academy like I've been in all these different programs homes and prisons and I think I calculated it up to be like 37 years so like literally 12 years on

the street and most of that was as a kid so I've you know I've never been a functioning adult. So the hard part for me was, okay, here's what it means to be a functioning adult in prison, but to be a functioning on adult on the street is a different, it's a whole different ballgame. Because in prison, most of the things that you have to pay for out here is provided for you in prison as far as got a roof on my head. I'm not paying for that except the time that I'm doing. There's always food available. You know, there's three meals a day, even though they're not always

that good. I have the church community. I have my responsibility. I have my responsibility. responsibilities. I had a job that I was going to in the prison. So I had this role where like everybody knew me and, you know, my spaces were carved out. My path was easy as far as that goes. So leaving that behind that rigid structure to where out here, there's no structure. It's on me to create that structure. And that's the hard part that I've been finding, like creating that same balance and structure that I had in there. You know, because, you know, being in an institution, whether it's a prison or a military. You know, you become used to this rigid structure of every day.

This is the time you wake up. This is what time of lunch is. You get used to asking. Like, that was the funny part, too, like getting out, like, you know, telling my family or my girl or whatever, like, yo, I'm going such as I'm going over here. I'm going to do this. And so one day she was just like, you know you don't have to report to me, right? But it's not computing.

Like, I'm still, when I'm talking on the phone, I'm still waiting for the GTL. operator to come on and say you have five minutes left, you have one minute left. Like I'll sit there and be talking to somebody and when I get past that, it's like I have that internal 15 minute clock. Like then we're still on the phone or like I'm still antsy a little bit like if I'm driving somewhere and I'm not driving but I'm with somebody and we're driving somewhere and we're leaving the town. Like even coming up here, I'm like, damn, is it okay to leave, you know, Jersey? You know, so that the hard part for me honestly has been leaving behind years of structure to now having to create that structure for myself, which I haven't successfully

done yet. Like, not the way I wanted to anyway. Don't get me wrong. Like, I'm getting a nice little routine, but having it and having that well-defined vision and purpose, because honestly, you can sit behind the wall every day and plan for whatever you want to do when you get out of prison. But once you get out here, it never happens the way you think is going to. What's a moment in prison that happened to you or that you witness that's going to stay with you forever? You know, you're going to be 80 years old on your deck and you're rocking chair and you'll still think about that moment. Oh, there's a few of them. I would say the most pointed one. So, you know, I'm in the mess hall. This is Trenton. And this guy gets stabbed up, bad. This, it was bad.

And I've seen some bad stabbings. Like, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen guys. Lid on fire and heard them screams while they're burning up. Like it's so like and that even makes my skin crawl thinking about it like but this one particular incident only hit me just because of how callous I felt in a moment or you know and in reflecting on it. So this guy gets stabbed up and you know they're fighting all around the mess hall. Every time they get near the like the door to the cage to exit to the mess hall you got the cop up there yelling make it to the cage.

guy every time he gets near the cage the guy snatching the back punching on him stabbing him so you know most of the blood ends up pulling around the section where uh the hot tea was and the and the juice and so this guy it's bad so they get the body out of there and there's this big pool of blood in front of the tea that's cold outside and all of us the only thing we were thinking was i want to get some tea before i leave So we little trampled through this guy's blood to get some tea. And as I'm walking out of the mess hall and I'm following bloody footprints out of the mess hall. I'm just like, when I got back to the cell, I was just like, y'all, I really just did that. Like, that hit me.

And that's like one of the main things that has stuck with me for a long time. And I think always will because it was just, and for one of the reasons is because I remember, hearing a sermon one time about, you know, the blood of Christ. And they talk about, you know, Christ shed his blood for us and just the preciousness of blood. But that makes me just thinks about the preciousness of human blood. Like, it's literally why we exist, why we're living. Like, this blood is pumping through our body. And then here it is spilled on the floor. And all I'm worried about is getting some tea. So it was like indicative of who I was in that moment, like completely lost. Like, because the person I am now, like, I'm not walking through somebody's blood just to get

some tea. Like, I'll get some tea tomorrow. Like, you know, but at that time for, like, the only thing I'm concerned about is my routine. My routine is I get tea every night before I go back to the wing, this nice little big jug. I fill it up with hot tea and I'm sitting in my cell and I'm watching TV because the cell's cold as hell. It's an old prison. Like Trenton is, the section of Trenton I was in, the West compound, was built into 1800s. There's no AC. There's none of that. Just a big exhaust fan and a couple more fans that do nothing.

And then in the summertime, in the wintertime, it's freezing cold because the heat doesn't reach the cell. So I'm just thinking like, man, I'm going to have my tea. I'll have my little sweatshirt on. I'm going to be watching a show tonight, whatever. It's the only thing I was focused on. So that's one of the things that is going to stick with me for, I think will stick with me forever, is that.

and then honestly just my moments in, you know, in the lifers group. Yeah, you've mentioned that a few times the lifers group. Can you explain what exactly that is and how you got involved with it in prison? Okay, so the lifers group is actually very famous. And as a matter of fact, you know, let me give a shout out first. Before I get into the real history of the lifers group, I just want to say, like, the person that set this interview up, his name's Ralph Alvarez. And so, you know, this is a man that did time up in Chicago.

and, you know, I actually met him through another brother in the prison, you know, and he reached out to me and we talked every now and then. And so he runs this page called the infamous lifers group. And so I remember when he told me one time, he was like, bro, he was like, I was going through and I came across this stuff with the lifers group from back in the 70s and the 90s. And he was like, man, I just couldn't believe that nobody knew about the lifers group. Like, why aren't you guys being talked about more? He was like, so I just wanted to. to do that. Like, I just wanted to, you know, big you guys up and talk about you guys and, and help you guys out in any way that I could. And, and he did that. Like, he put it in this, this Facebook group together. And, and man, he's been looking out for guys. He talks to guys. He helps guys out. He'll send guys money. He organizes, like, a little brunch. And he comes, like, he lives over in the UK. Like, he'll fly over from the UK and organize this little dinner. He also is helping to, like, the music project. So originally the Lifeers Group, he knows a Scared Straight program. And so they end up doing this album, this music album. I believe they did two, if I'm not mistaken. The next guy coming on Latif, he was actually part of it. So he's going to give you a better history of that because he was part of it. But so Ralph sees all of this and he sees them rapping and talking and telling his story.

And so he seeks out and finds some of the old guys that were part of the project, the original project, gets them back together. They got a song called State Number that already came out. You know, that's on YouTube. You got another song called Prison Life's about to come out in May. He got something coming out in May as well. He's flying in actually in April. We're going to meet up at a studio in Norque. We're going to work on some songs together.

And it will actually be my first time meeting the original members, with the exception of Latif, because I was in, you know, Latif was one of the guys that was still part of the group when I joined. but we're all going to meet up. So that's going to be fun. I'm looking forward to that. But Ralph, shout out to Ralph, man.

You know, he's a good dude. Some people actually hate on him because he was never actual, like, in Rawaway prison and was never part of the actual library group. Some people feel some type of way about that. Me, I don't. Like, I appreciate and applaud, like, the things that he's been trying to do for the guys that are in the group, man. You know, that's a big project to handle.

And for somebody that's never been a part of the group, in the prison to try to big guys up this much and help guys out. Like, how could I not give back and work with him and shout them out? Like, you know, I appreciate everything that he's done. But, you know, back to the life group itself in the prison. This guy, Sal Bass, Calvin Bass, he's one of the original members.

He was part of those original scare straight videos as well. He got locked up at 14. So anyway, I end up on one left in, in Rawaway when I get shipped from Trenton. And Sal comes to my door. And he says, he's like, yo, young blood. And it's funny, he's like one of those real old school convicts, bro, like with the mustache. You got the handlebar mustache coming all down.

A little short guy, man, brown skin comes up to doors like, yo, young blood, man, I heard about you, man. You want to join the life group. He's like, let me, I'm bring you up to the office. You know, I want to show you around and stuff like that. I'm like, cool, what's that? Like, I don't know what it is. So he brings me up there.

and, you know, he's giving me the story and the history of the organization and stuff like that. And it's essentially, you know, it's the lifers group is the originator of scare straight. Like the original, you know, I know some people seen on A&E, like years ago

where they're yelling at the little white boys in the county jail and stuff like that, trying to scare them so they didn't come to prison. They stole that from us. Like, they literally hijacked everything we did and they pushed the lifers group. They slowly pushed the lifers group to the back burner.

They were very popular in 80s, 90s, life is group, man, worldwide global movement, almost won a Grammy. Like, we lost like, Shanei O'Connor for their song, for Best Video, Long Play. And so, like, it's a very storied organization, and I'm sitting there learning about all of this. And I'm like, you know what, this is something I wouldn't mind being part of because it's about telling your story. It's about talking to kids and deterring them from coming to prison.

Like, how can I, like, share you, share with you my story to hope. So hopefully when you hear everything that I did and everything that I've been through and everything that I still have to face serving this bid in prison, you won't come to prison. And at the time when I joined, they were still doing the yelling, too. They're, like, yelling at the kids. They come in. They'll take one of the kids. Like, when I first watched the tours, it's hilarious.

My boy Latif, as a matter of fact, when he comes, he's what we call the Cracker. So he's the opener. So it was his job to, like, get up in the kid's face. You little punk motherfucker, who do you think you are? Give me your sneakers. So they'll take the kid's sneakers off and throw it. Now what's you going to do? You want your sneakers back?

So Latina was one of the ones that used to do that. And so that would be the opening. And then you settle in each person from the life group might give up. And you would have a particular spiel that you would have to give about life in prison and the life that leads to prison. And so when I seen that tour and then I seen them do a high school tour where they just bring high school kids in to talk to them,

allow them to ask questions, and they do the same with colleges. And I was like, man, I would definitely love to be part of this. So I joined like 05, 06, 06, as a matter of fact, 2006. And I loved it. You know, I loved being able to share my story and see the impact of it. And what really sealed the deal for me, honestly,

was we're on a tour and this was like a crazy moment too. This is another one I'll remember for a long time. I'm sitting on the panel and they bring this group of kids in and there's this counselor that they come in, you know, they have to be escorted obviously by their counselor from where they come in. So they bring the kids and they sit down. We're sitting there talking and they get to me and I'm telling a little bit of my story and the counselor starts crying. And so, one of the guys from the life group goes from like, yo, what's going on? And he was like, I know him. And it turns out this counselor,

man, I forget his last name. His first name's Craig. He worked at this spot called Woodbridge Diagnostic Center, which is literally right next to Raw, like the prisons right there. And I went to this spot for like, I was, I think I was in Woodbridge Diagnostic Center for like maybe six months. And I was a little young kid, man. I think I might have been, I might have been 11 or 12.

It's like right before I went to Skillman. And so we would play basketball and stuff against, like they would bring other institutions there, like Greenbrook Academy, like they would bring their players in basketball. And so I remember the game, we lost one of the games and we ended up fighting them. And I remember I took this kid's Ewing's. This one, the Ewing's were real popular back then, Patrick Ewing Sneakers. So we had some green leather ones on. So I was like, I called this.

I got them you. So you get in the fight with the kids and stuff like that. I take your sneakers and stuff. And so they take them away. The cops come. They settle everything out. They're like, nah, this is good. Don't worry about it.

And I had to get the sneakers back. But this guy, Craig, walks us to the edge of the property. And he points to the prison. And there happened to be some guys walking around the wall, like guys from the camp doing work and stuff like that. And he said, that's where you guys are going to end up. If you don't get this shit straight now. And him in particular, he always, like, he took a liking to me.

He was, like, really trying to get me, like, like, man, like, work through my issues because I had such anger issues and stuff like that. And he was one of the ones trying to keep me off medications because honestly, they were experimenting on me with medications. And it's actually, I found out later in my conversation with my father, like, he was actually fighting, like, to get me off of these medications the whole time behind, like, I never knew that. And so anyway, he's crying.

taking down and and but it turned into such a powerful moment for the kids because once I realize who it is, I start crying. I'm like, damn. And so we, once we tell the kids, the whole story, they're now looking at me like, wow, you're really here. And it hit me in that moment, like, wow, I'm really here. I'm like in East Jersey State Prison where he said I would be. So that, that, that really, that, that hit me, uh, that hit me pretty hard. But that's also also what sealed the deal for me, like, this is what I need to do as far as just in life in general. I need to share my story. And that's, you know, one of the songs Lifeers Group did was called Living Proof.

And, you know, that's what it is. Like, all of our stories, yours, mine, any other person you have on this podcast has been behind the wall, anybody that's made it and been successful and transitioned off of an addiction and has now changed their life around, you're living proof, right? You're living proof that there is light on the other side. Like there is a way out. Like you don't have to be stuck. There is no such thing as this is what I'm destined to be because I grew up in this area.

You know, like a lot of kids will come in that we talk to from Nork, Patterson, Jersey City, like all these spots. And they're just like, nah, man, like this is all I can be. All I can do is gang bang. All I can do with sell drugs. All I can do is this. And it's like, nah, bro, like, we're living proof that that is not all you can do. Like, here's the other side of the story. So, you know, for me, like, that's where, like, it really hit me, like, man, this is, this is what I want to do.

So I went full tilt with, with, with Sal, Bass, like, I'm in. And, you know, he was kind of mentoring me and, like, teaching me the ropes of the organization and the Livers Group. It's a legit. It's a legit. Like, like, it's full, it's legit. And mainly because of how popular it got in the 90s, Danny Glover actually. did a special with them, like, you know, a look back in the 90s with UPN. And that put them back on the map again as well. And that's why they always got so much favor inside of the prison

and they never shut the organization down. Because they shut a lot of inmate organizations down in that prison. But the lifers group never got touched just because of how much popularity that it had at the time and the amount of people backing it from the street. Then after Sal, Sal ends up actually getting shipped out of the prison. and this guy, one of my bros, man, his name's Dequan, Domingo Man, he becomes the president. And, you know, I always looked up to him as like a little older brother and stuff like that. And, you know, he kept mentoring me, like, you know, pushing me and encouraging me,

trying to give me opportunities and stuff like that, especially when it came to, like, music. And, like, we would throw banquets and stuff like that in the prisons. And I would put music together and stuff. You know, so the lifers group was very, it helped me process who I was. who I was. It helped me process my crime. Because when you're sitting on that panel and these kids are asking you questions, they're asking you very deep questions. And it helped me reach different levels of understanding every time I talked about my story. And I never told the story the same way, same details. But depending on that question, I would have to think about it in a different way.

So having to approach my own life and that case in particular from all these different ways, depending on what the question was, help me really process and work through a lot of my unforgiveness, a lot of my bitterness, a lot of my false worldviews that I had. You know, these worldviews that we take on as, you know, it's okay to be this way. It's okay to not have a heart. It's okay not to have, to value other people's lives. Like, they didn't mean nothing in the larger scheme of things. Like, they're just pieces inside of a game.

Like, that's kind of how, like, you train yourself to think, you know, to remain emotionally locked off and not have to worry about any of those types of feelings. So the lifers group really helped, you know, like, yeah, we help people, but the lifers group helps the people that are part of the lifeers group as well, because we don't, they don't allow you to get up there and live. Like, they look at your disqual. They ask you what your crime is. They look you up.

They make sure you're not lying and all. Like there's a nice little investigative process that goes like. They really vets you before you get into the lifers group. Some people slip through the cracks. Like we had this one guy who he actually ends up getting exposed on one of the group panels. And the funniest part is the college kid that exposes him ends up being a correctional officer in the same prison. Officer Labu. I don't know if I was supposed to say that.

But it was crazy because this guy, when he would tell his story, they would ask him, like, what happened in your crime? And literally, this is what he would do? Ian, he'd do this. He would fold his legs. He would put his hands just like this, take a breath, and he would tell the story the same exact way verbatim, same voice tone, no emotion to it.

And so for me, that was a red flag. It's like, because I'd never take it. tell the story the same way, always the same facts, but never from the same angle, depending on the question. But no matter what the question is, someone would ask him, he would do the same body movements. Literally like, I've seen it over 50 times to where he would fold his legs, fold his hands, and then go into this monotone voice and tell the story the same way. And these kids would go back and research the case. And the one time they came back in, you're like, you're lying. I looked at the discovery, like they were on his behind. Like, he ended up

get kicked out the group. But so that was the good thing. And then the lifers group was also a bond. Like you become like a family because everyone in the group has at least 30 years or better. Because the qualifications to get in the lifers group is having at least 25 years or more to serve in prison. So to be a member of that group means you might not go home. Like you might be in prison the rest of your life. might die in prison or whatever the case may be.

So it's not a good group to be accepted into in that sense. Like I used to tell guys all the time when they be like, y'all want to be part of the library's group. I'd be like, you sure? You know what main qualification is, right? Like what? Like, life. Well, I only got five years.

I was like, good. You don't qualify. So that group really helped all of us. But it really helped me because, especially with the guy I told you about Dayquan, Like we ended up being on the same wing a lot. And so it was just like anytime I would have issues or I'd be trying to work through something,

I could just talk to him because he's right there and we had built that bond of trust. And so that really helped. Like we help each other out, Latif, same way. Like this guy Mustafa champion, like we all became close. And then just being part of that group also gave me this larger vision of, man, you know what? I want to be the president one day

because I felt like there was more that we could be doing I had all these different ideas. You know, at the time, though, I couldn't be the president because only in the Constitution of Bylaws, it said only lifers. Someone actually has a life sentence could be the president or the vice president. And so that was a whole journey in and of itself and like me constantly going before the executive board and saying, hey, we need to make an amendment to this. Mainly because the life sentence is not that it's not being given out, but it's being phased

out. and the majority of the guys coming into the prison have 70 with an 85. So how are you going to tell that man he doesn't have a life sentence? He's got a 75 year sentence to serve. And 85% of that is 67.2 years. And he's 30. So that means he's going to be 97? Like, and you're telling him he doesn't have life.

So, you know, there was this, you know, so I actually became the first non-lifer to be the president of the lifers group. And my boy Shiloh, I told you about he was the vice president. My boy Vic is the treasurer and this guy Shafeek was the, no, he was the treasurer and Vic was a secretary at the time. And we just came in with this vision of, hey, let's get the lifers group back to where it was because of that kind of falling off.

And mainly because administrations change, which means politics change. And Lifeers Group didn't have as much backing as it did back in the 90s, you know, from people on the street and then wasn't looked that favorably from the top people downtown in Trenton, you know, New Jersey Department of Corrections, the commissioner, the assistant commissioner.

They're looking at us like this dinosaur program needs to be phased out. It was never successful in the first place. The crazy part is, is there was this professor, Finkenhower, at a Rutgers, who actually did a study on the Lifer's Group. And he used some very crafty wordplay to say that we weren't successful. He said 49% of the kids ended up still getting involved with some type of crime or, you know, touching a prison facility. But what that really means is that 51% didn't.

Right? You said 49%. But tell me what program, what juvenile intervention program ever had a 51% success rate? and the answers none. So the lifers group was actually very impactful. And what we try to do also is make it more impactful within the prison as well. Because most of the stuff was focused on

the kids coming in, the colleges, the high schools. But for us, we felt like there was a gap, this missing piece. How do we help the lifers in the prison who are struggling with addiction? Because addiction is running rampant through the prison system, especially when this K2 stuff hit.

Like, it's crazy. And we're trying to figure out what can we do to make an impact. So this is when we started really developing these other curriculums. You know, I was just telling the brother that was doing a podcast down the hall, John, about that. Like, how do we create a safe space inside of the prison for people to heal? Because the one thing I understood is that it wasn't until I was, like, able to confront myself and honestly look in the mirror and say, hey, you know what? you, you were a piece of shit. You were a monster.

Like, you were a bad person. And, like, until you can get to that point, because most people try, in prison, justify. Right? They, and they, they have this balance of, they're telling these different lies to themselves. So what they'll say is, oh, because I grew up in this area, I had no choice.

I had to live this type of lifestyle. So that's the first lie we tell ourselves. The second lie is usually, I have no choice but the gang bang. That's usually the second lie. But once a guy gets into prison and he's serving all this time and, you know, he's in prison for killing somebody, he's telling his family one version of the story. Oh, I didn't need to. I accidentally, you know, like there's all these different like coded language of like to

negate or diminish, I would say, how vicious or heinous the crime might have been. You know, at the end of the day, you know, we used to tell guys like, bro, if you pulled the gun out and shot somebody, you pulled a gun out and shot somebody. It wasn't an accident. Like, we know the difference between the accidental shooting and you walking around carrying a gun gang banging and shooting somebody. Like, you took that man's life. But in order to not push their family away,

sometimes guys feel like they have to lie to them and tell them a different version of the story to kind of like make it a little softer and not as, like I said, heinous are cold. Like, they don't want to be looked at from their family as this cold, vicious killer. And so they, you know, they're lying to their family and at the same time lying to themselves.

So the one thing the lifers group was doing was helping guys confront themselves. Like, and be honest with yourself. Like, you was running around the street, killing people. Or at least attempting to, shooting them. You were destroying your community. You were destroying your family.

You were hurting your mother. every time you went to jail, like all of these things, like trying to stop playing the victim. You're not a victim. You're in jail because you shot somebody or stabbed somebody or because you were selling drugs. Like, let's take that first step of, you know, we know there are innocent people in jail. We are no other people that are overcharged and given sentences. They should absolutely. But don't try to deflect.

So that's what keeps a lot of people in their identity crisis is that they're still trying to justify something that happened 27 years ago or 15 years ago or however much time they're in until they finally confront themselves. So that's where I feel like everything really plays a role at as far as identity. Like start there, start with yourself. And that's what the life group really helped do. And that's what we try to really push some of the curriculum that we started building up in the organization over the past like three, four years. And it's been, and it's having a huge impact. Now, you've spent nearly three decades inside prison. What are some of the, you know, the physical things that come along with that, you know, dental health diet after getting out that you

realize that that effect has had on you? Man, well, you know, I'll say this. I was very fortunate to meet some of the people that I met along the way. So, you know, I've always kind of kept myself. I've always worked out. That's one thing. I've always played sports, always worked out, you know, in jail. That was just like something you always, I always did, just always played basketball. So I was always in shape from that standpoint. But I met this brother, uh, uh, seafood. We called him seafood at times because he, before he got locked up, he was a martial arts instructor. Uh, he goes by Humza now. He's Muslim. Uh, the funny story there is when I, when I first met him, he was actually,

FOI for anyone watching it doesn't know that's the fruit of Islam. They're like the militant branch of the nation of Islam. And so it's a funny story. If it's okay, if I deviate a second. But when I first walked into the mess hall in Trenton, you know, I'm kind of like, you know, thinking about Florida. I'm like, all right, where's the white boys at? Where's the Spanish boys at?

Because those are one of the tables I'll probably have to sit at. So I'm walking and this guy stands up like, oh, Tonka-Bone. And so it's this guy see foo. And so, you know, because I met him briefly in Kraft, which is like the reception area because he was back on like a court case or something like that. I believe I had met him in that way prior to me being in Trenton.

And I knew of him from the street, you know, some of the things that he was involved with. Like he had this little martial arts team. They were running around breaking and entering, you know, into houses and stuff like that, like some ninja type stuff. You know, so I'd run across him a few times. sometimes. So I go sit at the table with him. I'm like, all, whatever. Because I'm seeing certain white boys at a table with black people. I'm seeing Spanish boys at table. So I'm like,

oh, okay, there's not the same politics here. I don't know the whole story yet, but I'm just like, well, I know him. And I know if anybody tries to get at me and I'm fighting. And it's more than one person. I know this guy can handle himself because he was real sharp with his hands and feet. So I go sit at the table with him. And little do I know, like, this is the FOI table. because that's not, he didn't lead with that. Like, oh, by the way, this the F-O-I table. So there's O-Head comes and sits at the table. He looks at him and then he looks at me.

And then my boy looks at him. He's like, no, he's good. He's good. Trust me. He's like, okay. Sat down. Other guy comes at the table like, man, what the fuck's this cracker doing sitting at our table?

So I stand up, like, ready to go. And he's standing up like, no, no, no, no, no. Man, he ain't even white. He's like, you could have fooled me. in my eyes are blue as hell, right? So he's like, you know we don't like the blue-eyed devil and he literally has blue eyes. So this is like what this guy's saying.

And I'm just like, I'm ready to fight now. Like, because, you know, but he's like, man, his name's white chocolate, bro. Just sit down, trust me, he'll grow on you. He was like, so he sits down at the table because he really had no choice because the old head to table was like the head of F or Y. And he didn't say anything.

He just looked at him and was like, so the guy was like, sat down and stuff like that. And so, you know, I sit down at the table with him and stuff like that. And we're just sitting there talking and kicking it like that. And so I find out later about the F-O-Y stuff. I'm just looking at him like, really? You got me sitting at the table. Like you put me in jeopardy, bro.

He's like, no, no, no, no, no. I was it, what was the question? Just about how the physical aspects. Yeah, physical. So he was very sharp with Eastern philosophy and meditation and stuff like. So he put me on this book called Authentic Self-Knowledge by Lupaz. And, you know, the book was just really like breaking down the mind, the body, the spirit, how it all connects to the universe.

Then he gave me some books on like proper dieting and everything like that, which, as you know, is next to impossible in prison. But I got fortunate when I got to Rawaway is I ended up getting a job in the ODR, which just means the officer's dining room because I know how to cook a little bit. And the guy that was in there, you know, he was like, I'm going to get you in, brother. His name's Rosalam. He's home now. So he gets me into the ODR.

And because I'm now in the ODR, I now have access to better food, not top quality, but just better food in general. So I'm able to cook for myself. And so I end up not really having to go to the mess all that much at all and eat that processed food. So from a diet perspective, I was always pretty good for the most part. dental you know they brush your they do teeth cleaning

like every two years when I first got in there was no dental floss it wasn't until later until they came with like the little dental loops that they allowed us to start buying

toothpaste was trash until we the wing reps you know the guys I don't know if they had wing reps in the feds but in the state in Jersey anyway

we had this thing called wing representative so they would appoint one guy one of the prisoners from the tier to represent the issues of the tier. And then all the wing reps together would represent whatever issues they felt they needed the administration to hear as far as the prison goes. So they did a lot of fight in as far as getting better healthy products, better equipment

in the yard, better toothpaste, you know, better soap, all that type of stuff. But honestly, their answer for everything in prison is Motrin. Take a Motrin. The minute I got the raw way, it was like maybe. Three weeks later, I had a stomach virus, H. Pylori, which is not too bad at first, but it's actually something that can get worse, and it can even lead to, like, stomach cancer later on. And at first, they were like, oh, it's nothing.

I said, you just said I have bacteria and infection in my, and you're saying it's nothing. Like, the nurse was just kind of like being nonchalant. And I almost got locked up right there because I actually got up, walked past her, went to the doctor. You can't go back there. I said, I'm going back there to see the doctor. I don't know what you're talking about.

You're going to send me back to the tier, and you just told me I have H. Pylori. And at that time, I don't even know what H. Pylori is. So for me, you know, in prison, you're kind of like a hypochondriac because, you know, the biggest fear about being in prison is dying in prison. Either that or losing your mother while you're in prison. Like, guys fear about losing their loved ones

or they fear about dying in prison. So any medical issue is exacerbated. like we're hyper vigilant, you know, especially serving that much time. So like when she was like H. Pylori, for me, that was cancer. Like it's not just some small stomach infection. Like, no, this is cancer and you better treat it. And so I went right past her. I was like, she just told him I got H. Pylori.

He was like, what? What are you doing back here? Are you on this? I was like, yeah. I was like, she's trying to send me back to the tier. He wasn't, she's running behind me. He's not here to see you. He was here to see me.

I'm like, look, Doc, I'm not leaving. Luckily, the officer that was working there, this officer, Logan, he was running an infirmary at the time, was like, you're really going to try to send a man back and you just told me he got H. Pylori? What is H. Pylori? So I ended up getting a little, you know, antibiotics and stuff from my stomach.

But it's just bad. I remember one time I actually had a full-blown tumor, like what they call, lipoma on the back of my head. It was like the size of a softball. And so I go to medical for it. And, you know, I had talked to my sister, my one sister, Annette. I had started connecting with her through the email once we got our email system. So I'm asking her like, yo, what's the procedure for this stuff?

Because she works in a medical industry. And she's like, well, technically you're supposed to do a biopsy because any lipoma could be a sarcoma and it become cancerous and all of this type of stuff. So they're supposed to send you out. They didn't want to send me out. The doctor touched the back of my head. it's a lipoma, you're fine. I'm like, I'm fine. I was like, I got a softball on the back of my head. I said, I can't sleep at night because he's like, well, there's no pain. So that was my fault. Like, I was supposed to go into medical. Like, it's pain, it's killing me. It's hurting.

He's like, so they're not going to do anything. I was like, what? They're not going to do anything. So I go back and I tell one of the guys, and he gives me this phone number for this woman named Gene Ross, who was like a prison advocate. So I call her. She calls up the prison, like literally 20 minutes after I talked to her, calling me to medical, the same doctors in there, like, you're not going to sue me, right? I'm like, bro, it took me getting a lawyer to call up here for you to want to do your job.

So he starts panicking. He was like, it's not me, it's not me. And so he turns to computer screen, he says, look. So at that time, they had, what they had now is a board. And any medical procedure that the in-house doctors in the prison recommend say, oh, this guy needs this, this guy needs that, they would send it to the board. And literally, unless like your head was hanging off, the board wouldn't approve anything.

And so there was actually a lot of guys in that prison that died because of that board. Like we lost a brother named Grims, Ab, last name was Grimsley. He was on this thing called Chronic Care. So when you're on chronic care in the medical and the prison, they have to call you down monthly for physicals. And then every 90 days you do blood work. So he had been on chronic care for like four or five years. And then he just starts getting weak and sick. And, you know, they end up taking him out and running some tests and telling him he comes back,

oh, you got stage four cancer. Like you got like six months to live. So he was like, well, how did you guys not detect this? Like I've been coming down here getting blood work for five years. Oh, well, we weren't running blood work for that. So wait, you went and see the white blood blood blood. Bloods out counts going crazy. Like, like, so I'm hoping that his family, like,

ends up getting some money off that. I don't know if they're pursuing it or not, but the medical's terrible, and especially in most state facilities, it's even worse than private prisons. But especially, like, the state, man, it's like everything I went down there for, whatever it was, it was always motoring,

and mochering for whoever don't know, tears your stomach up, especially, and that's all they put you on. And so it just wasn't that good. It was cheap. Five bucks. You know, so I guess you get what you paid for. Now I'm out here.

I'm on the NJ Horizon family care. You know, I'm finally working, so I know I'm going to end up paying for all of that anyway, regardless of having an insurance policy. It's definitely different. It's expensive out here. You know, the healthcare industry, they don't play. So I'm finding those obstacles now. It's funny.

I think my girl tried to put me on her life insurance, then they denied me because of my criminal record. Crazy. Like, what? You're going to deny somebody because of their criminal record life insurance? So those, those, like, I'm happy now that I'm out and I can eat the way I want to eat, eat healthier, you know, drink water that's probably not infected. Because, you know, in there, like, especially in the facilities up here, they're so old. Especially, like, Rallway.

Rawaway should not be open. Like, literally, I know they are paying. off the inspectors to keep that prison open. Like, I know what's happening. That prison should have been shut down. It's got asbestos in it. It's got black mold in some cells. The plumbing is terrible.

The heat never works. Like, you're just in ungodly conditions on a constant basis in that prison. And I just had a scaffolding up inside of that building for 15 years to keeping the roof up. And I'm pretty sure OSHA rules are very, very strict about that. You cannot have a scaffolding up inside of a residential building where people are living.

If you do have a scaffolding up, that means the people can't live there anymore until you get whatever the problem is fixed. That was what crazy. They offered OSHA certification courses in a prison. And so guys are taking these OSHA certification courses and looking around a prison and saying,

it's an entire violation. Like this whole prison is a violation, yet it's still open. That's what's crazy. So, yeah, like, coming out here and being able to get all the things I need, whether it be vitamins, nutrients, good drinking water, you know, it's a different shock. But now it's also now understanding the insurance game and how all that is actually going to play and how much money that's actually.

Because it's like you're telling me I have to have insurance. What if I just want to pay for the procedure myself? But they'll penalize you for not having insurance. So now I'm trying to figure. So like I said, it's my first time trying to be a functioning adult. Luckily, I have my girl and she's helping me. And I know she gets frustrated with me sometimes because I'm just ignorant to just a lot of things. A lot of things like, you know, and like, and that's kind of frustrating for me because I'm used to picking things up quick for the most part.

But it's like, you know, trying to figure out just my phone has been a journey. Like I got locked up. I had a beeper. you know now they got a computer in your hand essentially like your whole life is literally on a phone like I used to make fun of people when I see them walking around with I'll be watching people on TV like with their phones everywhere and I'm like I ain't gonna be like that and sure enough I am because I get it like I understand like you can literally do most of the things you need to do right there on your phone you should have seen my first time trying to pay at self-checkout

that was hilarious but yeah So it's been an experience transitioning from how poor medical is out there, but to also how poor medical is actually out here as far as like getting, getting the right care that you need and getting an insurance plan and all that type of stuff. Like it's kind of a little overwhelming. I guess everything is a little overwhelming. What kind of work are you into now? Right now I got lucky, honestly, like a lot of the places I was applying for,

you know, even though they say they banned the box, everyone still does background checks. Like I remember, you know, I actually work out at this gym. My boy was bringing me to the gym with him because he had a membership to retro fitness. And so he brings me on his membership. He can have a guest. So I'm doing all, you know, I'm working out in there.

And, like, they see, like, the people that work there are seeing, like, the stuff that I do. And, like, when they find out how old I am, they're like, you're not that old. How are you doing all that stuff over there? And they're not realizing, like, the average person in prison that works out, as strong as hell, like in comparison to the average person out here.

Like the average person out here might get 185 pounds up on the bench. The average person in prison is pushing 315, at least where I was at. I don't know about anywhere else, but, you know, we go out to the yard and jokers are working out. And then, like, the type of workouts we do, they're essentially, like, the stuff that I was doing was kind of like CrossFit, but I was doing, adding more reps to the stuff that CrossFit would even do. So when I'm sitting there doing some of these workouts,

They're looking at me. Like, and I'm also, for the most part, a sociable person, I would say, and they see that part of it too. And they're like, man, you'd be good to working here. So they put me in to get interviewed. And I'm talking to the lady that, you know, that runs the spot. And she's like, oh, man, you'd be perfect. And I tell her my age, she's like, there's no way you're that old. She's like, but that's even better because I know you're mature.

I got a bunch of little 19 to 20 year olds running around here and you can kind of like keep them in line. I'm like, absolutely. So I'm thinking I got the job. She's telling me like, yeah, you're going to start. I'm going to try and start you like Monday. Next thing you and I get a little text like, oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know that the guy under me, my manager, because she's the general manager, and then she had a manager.

I didn't know he already hired like two or three people. So I'm like, yeah, okay. Like, I know what it is. You Googled me and seen what. And then I knew instantly that's what it was because the next time I went to the gym to work out, I felt the energy shift. Like the way she didn't engage with me the same way she was before. like she would always greet, because my boy, he's been going to that gym for like 15 years.

So they all like really like them. They get along with him. But now he's even getting a little, from her, a little like, like, igging them off a little bit. So it's like, oh, okay, you know, like, you were punked for that too. Like, really? Like, you went and looked that up and now you're giving us this energy. So that job got shot down because of that. And then this landscaping job, I apply for it.

I'm up front with the guy telling him everything. and this dude's just like, bro, I got you. I don't care about none of that stuff. We just need people that are going to work. And I know you want this job. I know you're going to bust you're behind. And so now me and one of the other guys got on a clemency

named Shahid Alexander, pop off. We both, he's the one that got me the interview. So he was already applying for it too. So we both got a text. They tell us we're going to start on the 15th of March or something like that. No, the 16th. The 13th of March. we get a text.

I'm sorry, you know, you guys were strong candidates, but we had some more qualified guys. So wait, out of all the guys, the only two that you say were not qualified were me and the other ex-con. And the funniest part is, in the prison, I used to have a job called Internal Grounds, which was essentially landscaping.

Me and his guy Poppa. So I know how to operate the zero turns, the stand behinds, the weed waggers know how to do maintenance on them a little bit and everything and I'm sitting. So that's why he was like, oh, I really do want you to work here. But yet, so fortunately, one of the guys I was locked up with, his name's Jimmy DeFazio, he works for this company called LJK Management LLC. And what they do is they respond to fires and floods in people's homes.

And like once it happens and, you know, once they sign with us, then our job is to go in there. if there's any like broken windows holes in the rules or whatever we board everything up we protect their property uh and then make when we work with the insurance companies to make sure they get as much money as they can you know for the damages whatever it may be repair whatever it may have been uh so sometimes we may have to fully got a house sometimes we may only have to pull up a piece of the floor in their kitchen if it was a flood uh and so but it came through really clutch like honestly like, because my boy found out I needed a job and was just like, man, I got you. Prior to him, it was my boy, PJ Mealy.

I was actually talking to him before I even got out of prison. And, you know, he's been, man, I got to give a shout out to him, man, because he's been a rock for me. Like, besides my girl, like, when I first got out, you know, he lives in the same neighborhood as my girl does. And he had just started, he started up his own business, a sanitation company and a paint company. And so whenever he could pay me, he'd be like, yo, bro, come work with me today. I'll make sure he get some money in your pocket. So he couldn't hire me full time because he didn't have enough township contracts for the sanitation company to hire more employees. So he couldn't hire me.

But whenever there was extra work, whenever he had the money, he would bring me long. Bro was taking me out to eat, buying me clothes. Like, he really held me down when I first got out. But he just couldn't give me the steady work that I knew. need it, but he's always been there for me. Whenever I needed anything, like putting money in my pocket, like, like, bro's been very helpful. I love him for that, man. I actually, you know, was doing time with his brother. So that's how I met him. I met him through his brother. And the goal is eventually for me to be working with him full time helping get that sanitation company to the next

level. So that's the plan. Right now, I'm doing this work because it puts money in my pocket every day, it's like 200 bucks a day. Whether I work eight hours or two hours, they're still giving me 200 bucks, so I can't be mad at that. You know, it helps me, because you need money for, like, the stuff that I want to do. You know, like I said, I discovered my music talent in prison. That's something that I, like, you know, I was really passionate about in there.

But it costs money to do all that stuff out here. So, you know, it's hard to walk into a guitar center with no money. Like, hey, let me get that MPC and that keyboard. like it don't work like that so I definitely my plan is get all that going and off the ground you know get my music going and maybe do some producing behind the scenes like I really want to do that

I also got to learn the new technology and then as far as the nonprofit the life group I've been working with Fairleigh Dickinson University one of the professors there and he's trying to get me some space there to actually help build the nonprofit up because again even that takes money

and one of the sad things that I've been finding out about, like, the nonprofit world out here and how they're supposed to be helping us with reentry and all. It's a lot of it's not, I don't want to want to say a scam, but a lot of the people that are in charge of these nonprofits that are supposed to be helping prisoners, with the exception of, like, returning citizens. Shout out to my boy, Chino and Mello.

They just want the money from the state. And so they'll get the money from the state for the contract to help people coming back into prison, coming out of prison, but they're offering minimal services because it's like they're trying to keep. They're only trying to spend whatever legally they have to spend based on laws that govern 501c3s and stuff like that. And also just the fight for the money is dirty. So it's definitely harder than I thought it would be to get that going. Like it's easy to pay 100 bucks and get a nonprofit started, but to get the 501c3 and then actually starting to get grants, that's also,

it's very hard. So that was kind of disheartening. But, But it's not deterring. Like, you know, I'm definitely still focused. Definitely, I've already drawn up my constitution of bylaws. Like, you know, I'm definitely ready to pull the trigger on that. Definitely want to get the music going. But it's just a matter of making money so that I can secure all of those things. And then once I can, then I can start easing away from the job that I'm doing now.

What advice would you give your younger self? Before you ever got into trouble, you know, if you could sit across from him today. and, you know, give him one really good piece of advice. Open up. As far as I always kept things in. So that's why I was always very angry. It's kind of hard, like the younger self thing, for me, only because, like I said,

I was in all these different programs. And it's like maybe take advantage of the programs because some of the programs I was in, they did offer a lot like the spot I was in Bonnie Bray you know they had an auto mechanic program so I probably could have learned that trade while I was in there a carpentry program I probably could have learned that trade don't be afraid of hard work because it pays off long

you know in the long run like you know the younger version of myself that had that landscape here's the irony right I turned down this landscaping job and mind you this guy when I got this job, this is what he told me. He said, you're going to be working with my son. I'm getting ready to retire. My goal is to leave everything to my son. You could possibly be right under him and have a piece of this company.

Now, I'm not looking at it, you know, in the larger sense of what that would actually mean when I get into my 30s, when I get into my 40s. Because here I am about to turn 49, and I'm not even close to being able to retire. But yet that's where the space I should be at right now. Like I should be 49. I should be ending my career, not starting a career. So I would say like, don't be afraid of hard work. Like, and learn, learn what really makes this world take as far as money, credit, what employment really is, what owning a company really is,

like following your passions and how to monetize your passion. Like, all of that is important, but none of that stuff is anything that I knew at that time. And perhaps if I understood that, maybe I would have been on a different path. And maybe I would be retiring right now. Well, Tony, I appreciate you coming out here on the show today. You're an excellent speaker. You told your story beautifully. And I wish you all the best in the future.

Man, listen, I appreciate you. I've only watched a few of your podcast. I'm definitely going to watch a lot more. But I really just, I love the fact that you give a space for guys to share their story. Because like I said, it's about sharing your story. It's about people being able to hear your story so that maybe they can learn a lesson. Maybe they could pass something along to somebody else.

So I definitely plan on keep doing that. And I just want to encourage you, man. Just keep doing what you're doing. Do it bigger. Do it harder. Get more people involved. I definitely would love to work with you in the future on some projects or something, bro, because I really do like what you do.

100%. And I appreciate you. Thank you for your nonprofit or whatever. You know, we're here. Yeah. I definitely, and I heard I can even rent space out and do podcasts and everything here. So I definitely, I definitely want to hit you up again and talk about that and see what I could do.