Locked In with Ian Bick - HOW I SURVIVED The Most Dangerous PRISON In America | Chad Marks

Episode Date: May 25, 2023

Growing up surrounded by crime, Chad Marks is sentenced to 40 years in prison by the time he turns 23 years old. In this interview we hear how Chad navigated some of America's Toughest Prisons, became a lawyer while inside prison and how he managed to get released nearly 20 years early. Connect with Chad Marks:https://www.youtube.com/@bloodontherazorwiretv Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com/Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos & more:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/joinPowered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are back with another episode of Lockton with Ian Bick. On today's episode, we have a very special guest. We have Chad Marks from the Blood on the Razor Wire YouTube channel to tell his story about how he was sentenced to 40 years in federal prison, becomes a prison jailhouse lawyer, and then gets out after serving 20 years of his federal prison sentence by filing a pro se motion. Thank you guys for tuning in to Lockton with Ian Bick,

and I hope you guys enjoy the show. Before we jump into today's interview, just a couple quick announcements for you guys. If you guys could take a second and complete the survey in the description, if you're listening to this on YouTube or on our audio streaming platforms, click on that link to the survey. It helps us make our show better, gets feedback from you guys, what you want to hear, what you want to see more of, maybe even what you want to see less of.

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subscribe, share. And thank you guys for tuning. in to Lockton with Ian Bick. Chad Marks, welcome to Lockton with Ian Bick, man. Super excited to have you on the show. You know, you have the blood on the razor wire YouTube channel. You're at like, what, 130,000 subscribers now. You're putting out some great work. And the thing I like about your story is that you're very opposite to my story.

We were both in the federal prison system, but I was at Lowe's and Camps, and you were at, you know, United States Penitentiary. So excited to dive in and see you. where that story takes us today. Starting from the beginning, where are you from? What's your childhood like growing up? Okay, so I'm from Rochester, New York. My childhood was pretty much a single mother on welfare. My father left when we were like three. He actually shot at me and my mother with a 12-gauge shotgun and we escaped, got away. My father took off and my mother kind of like raised me as a single mother on welfare in Rochester, New York, kind of neighborhood that's we refer to as ghost town.

So not a nice place when you live in a place. called Ghost Town, right? My family's actually, my mom's had the family's from Penfield. So we'd go to Rochester a lot, probably a way different area than where you're from. Probably. Do you have siblings at all? Are you only child? Yeah, I have a, I had a brother that committed suicide. Oh, wow. And I have two sisters. I'm sorry to hear that. It's all right. And what's the age difference? Are you the youngest? Are you the middle, oldest? Well, my brother's older to me, and I got two sisters that are younger. My father had ended up getting remarried after he left. And he had a daughter and my mother had a daughter too after that.

And what about like the early years for you, high school or elementary school, middle school, high school, what's that like? Well, elementary school was, you know, we grew up in the hood, man. We grew up in the ghetto. Did a lot of fighting, got suspended in second grade for taking a knife to school. I got a 14 day suspension. Elementary school was rough, you know. And when I hear other people's stories, it's kind of like, wow, it's not, it's not kind of like how we grew up, you know. But we grew up in a tough little area over there, man.

And, you know, I had put a short up on my video on my channel where we talk about, you know, Rochester being one of, you know, having one of the biggest poverty rates in the country. And, you know, some people laughed when I said that on 23 and 1, but it's the truth. Higher murder rate than Chicago. And it's been that way for a long, long time per person. So definitely a dangerous, dangerous city. But you know what? I did stay away from drugs and stuff growing up.

I wrestled. I was an amateur fighter. I actually fought Rocky Juarez in 92, 93 at the Silver Glove Nationals in Kansas City, Missouri. And how old are you when you did that? I was 13. You're 13 years old. 13. Wow, that's cool.

13. I fought in the Silver Glove Nationals. So, you know, I was always an athlete. But we were poor. And then, you know, I just kind of got involved in the whole drug thing. Where not wanting to be poor, actually brought my boy here that I first started selling drugs with. That's awesome. Did you think that sports was your way out of poverty? Were you looking at it at that time?

Well, when you're a kid, you dream. I always thought either baseball or football and I'd be out of here or possibly boxing. Wrestling wasn't doing it. I was a captain of my wrestling team in middle school. That wasn't doing it, though. That wasn't going to get me out of the life that I was in. So I used to think, man, I'm going to play football someday. But obviously that didn't materialize. So you always wanted to do something bigger with your life. Like you knew you were above what your circumstances were. You just couldn't find like that way out at that time frame. 100%. So how do you end up then, I guess, selling drugs, which ultimately leads to like a 40-year prison sentence. How does it start?

You know, I remember when I was younger, I had two pairs of jeans, right? Literally. And I'm like, damn, I don't want to be broke. And, you know, I had a buddy that lived around the corner. He was 13, 14. He was selling bags. He kept him in these little films. film things, you know, the little film canisters back in the day.

Yeah, we used to put weed in those in middle school. So, I mean, he's selling cocaine, right? And I'm like, damn, bro, I'm trying to, you know, I'm trying to do what you're trying to do. I'm trying to make a couple dollars. And he's like, nah, man, you don't want to do that. He was playing around, you know. And I'm like, man, I want to.

And then eventually we became partners. And, you know, we started, I think, I believe back then with a 16th, turn a 16th into an eight ball, eight ball into a quarter, quarter into another quarter. Then we went to a half ounce and took off from there. And eventually I would land in prison at the age of seven. 17. How old, so you're 16 when you start selling about? No, I'm probably 13 or 14. How much money are you making at that age doing this? You know, petty money. Let's say petty money. And then I remember at one point you'd be buying a half ounce for 500, half ounce of cocaine. And then you would bag that up and you would only make $300 profit back then. So you'd be, you know, bagging up 800, paying $500 and making $300 in profit. But, you know, you might bust that off in four or five hours. And as I got older, things did progress. You know, I went to prison, though, when I was 17. Now, what year is this just to put it in perspective?

94, 95. Is this before, like, the war on drugs, like that aspect of it? Or what's a time frame like? No, I mean, Ronald Reagan started the whole war on drugs thing, right? So in our community, like I said, my buddy, you know, he lived at a house. His uncle was a drug dealer, drug addict. And that's kind of where it started, him selling bags for his uncle and that I'm like, yo, I need to get in where I fit in.

I'm tired of being broke. And then we started selling bags. And then eventually we would progress. I remember sitting at his house watching on that floor model TV, you know that wood TVs back in the day. We're watching Biggie Smallers rapping about blowing up like the World Trade Center. And I'm like, man, we got to get some money. And that's how it started, man.

And then eventually we would, you know, work our way up, 62s. And he would take a 62, two ounces six grams and turn it into $4,500 in bags. And you might sell that on a Friday night. And you never did the drugs yourself? Never. Never even smoked weed before, bro. Why? Like what was some of the people I talked to, like they get,

addicted, they're doing their own supply, and it never ends well. But what was like your reasoning for never even trying it? I think because I was always an athlete and from seeing the things that I seen in my neighborhood. I didn't want to be involved in that. So you're very like self-aware, I guess, of like the situation of your community. And it was just like a means to an end to just make some money to get out of the lifestyle, I guess. I mean, that's what you think. But you know what happens is, Ian, when you're selling drugs and a lot of people that, you know, watch your show could probably tell from, you know, say the same thing is that, You sometimes get stuck.

I remember making 10 grand and I couldn't get past 10 grand, but I thought it was this big drug dealer, right? And then eventually you get past it. It takes time. Then you got 25,000. And you're like, damn, I got 25 grand saved, but I've had 25 grand for six months. Yeah.

So, you know, yeah, of course you think like, you know, I want to get out of this life. And, you know, I want to, some people do. But it just, it was just a continuous cycle of sell drugs to live for the day. And what about the money? What are you doing with it? Well, eventually, you know, eventually I would go. to New York State prison, right? I would go to prison at the age of 17, come home. And now when I

came home, it was no longer powder cocaine. Now people were selling crap. So I got a job at a factory. That wasn't working out for like 90 days. And I'm like, you know what? I'm taking my paycheck. And I'm buying some dope. When I say dope, I mean crack where we're from. And after that, man, I just took off from there. I ended up owning a home improvement company, ended up owning a pizza shop, married the girl that I talked to you about earlier. This is all before the age of 20 years old. and you've already done what a year in prison? No, so let me rewind just a little bit. Okay.

I do a two to six, okay? I do two years. I get out. I get out on parole. Now I'm out. I start selling drugs again, like I was just telling you. I end up catching a violation. I go back and do another two years on a violation.

Now I come home and I'm home for 14 months. And that's when I was really starting to make real money. I ended up owning a pizza shop, home improvement company, ended up with this girl that I ended up getting married to. And you know what? 14. I was only on the street 14 months. And how old are you? I'm 23, 22, 23 at the time. 22, 23. And you built like, how much would you say it's worth like this drug business that you're building up? Um, I got, let's just say I got knocked with 219,000 cash. Oh, wow.

Three kilos were recovered in the case, 10 pounds of weed. So at that point, I had a home improvement company, a pizza shop. And I was towards the end of, you know, where I felt like, man, I'm getting out. Man, I don't want to do this no more. This isn't the life that I wanted to live. Like I met this chick that I was happy with. And I was like, man, I don't need to do this no more. And I was on my way out. And they ended up, you know, tapping my phone right when I was probably really going to exit the drug game.

Do you have kids at this point too? No, no kids. So when do they, or when do you find out that they're investigating you? So like I said, I own a pizza shop. I leave the pizza shop and I'm going to meet with this kid. And I see these cars. I see these cop cars. And I'm like, hey, man, you see them dudes up there?

And he's like, yeah. I mean, this is all on the wiretap. And he's like, yeah. I see him. He's like, pull up. So we pull up. We pull up. I jump out. We make an exchange. I get back in the truck. I start driving away. And next thing I know, there's all these black dudes jumping out of these cars, right? So my first instinct, and this ain't I know racial stuff, but my first instinct is these dudes are about to, they're capturing me, right? They're going to kidnap me for money. But it turns out it was the police. They end up stripping me right there in the middle of the road. This is a state or federal agents. This is, this is our Rochester police department. up, you know, arresting me right there. They can't find anything because my boy jumps out of the passenger seat and takes off. And they alleged, I don't even care. I mean, I've been convicted. He throws the dough. He throws the crack that we just bought. He throws it and they can't find it. So they're searching everywhere. They, but I'm, it's February 4th, 2003, butt ass naked in the

middle of the street. They took all your clothes off. All my clothes off, man. Why would they do that? Because they didn't, back then, they didn't care. Wow. There's no accountability, right? They just took my pants down, drop them. Look out. All in my, you know, all in my balls. And there's no social media to record this. And none of that. What kind of phone do you have at the time? Like a flip phone? I had a sprint flip phone back then. And that's what they were tapping? Yeah, that's what they were tapping. Wow, that's crazy. But let me tell you the crazy part, Ian, right? I go to prison. I do 18 years. I get out. And about two weeks ago, I run in, I go to this restaurant with my wife. She wants to go this nice place. And I see this lady staring at me. And I'm like, man, this chick's staring at me.

She's an older lady. And she goes, Chad Marks. And I said, yeah, I know you. She said, yeah, Terry Deercom. That was the lead investigator in my case. And she's, and she pretty much told me like, look, you know, I feel bad that you got that much time. You should have went to prison, but probably shouldn't have got 40 years. And we talked for a little while, man.

And at the end of the conversation, she gives me a hug and wishes me the best. Wow. This is the case agent. That's very full circle. And that's crazy. And, you know, the other part to it is, and I actually interviewed this cat on my, on my channel. this guy Donnie who is the one that hooked up with her and wore a wire on me and did all that stuff

and eventually I run into him and you know what I interview him on my YouTube channel and you know I've changed my life right so it was kind of like full circle for me I had seen him like when I first got out like eight months he's oh man don't hurt me bro and I'm like dude you said that same stuff on the tape man stay away from you're a piece of shit for real I literally told him that and I drove away

and then a year later I see him and he waves me down This is recently six months ago. He waves me down. And for some reason, I stopped. And he's like, man, I'm really sorry. I've been watching your YouTube channel. You know, I'm sorry for what I did you. And I'm like, look, bro, in all reality, you didn't do this to me.

You were just one of the tools. I did this to myself. I sent myself to prison for 40 years. I decided to sell drugs. Did you help me along make it to prison? Yeah, you did. But you know what, man? At this point in my life, you know, I think I had my kids.

And I was like, you know what, man, I forgive you, bro. Like, I'm not, I don't hate you, man. and you know that takes a lot of growth and a lot of maturity because there's a lot of guys like i'll meet that get out of prison they're like fuck that person if i ever see them i'm fucking killing them this and that they don't have that and they're still in that mindset like you wouldn't risk everything you've been able to build just to do that to someone and screw everything up i did 18 years man i never want to go back to prison and you know what forgiving that cat was kind of something that helped me you know be a better person help me heal find peace within yourself yeah i had to and

did. Now going back to that arrest, how does it become federal? Like the state arrests you. How does it get to the federal level? So what happens is I go into state court, right? They set a bail. I'm like, okay, I'm out of here. It was a cheap bail, like $7,500 or something, right? So I call my wife and I say, man, I got a bail, whatever, come get me. She comes, bails me out. Well, I'm walking out. And I'm like, man, they're taking forever, you know, to give me my belt and stuff. And I'll never forget this. I'm like, man, they're taking fear. It's never been like this. But eventually they get me my belt and stuff and I walk out and I see these two white dudes and my first instinct is to run. And they're like, hey, you're coming with us. And those were actually the Rochester Police Department

who were doing federal cases now. And they drive me over to the federal building. And I go in there and they're talking about 10 to life. Right away. Right away. First day. You're facing 10 to life. I had one count. But you didn't know that you had wiretaps on you or anything. So you just thought you were getting out. Normally they don't even let you get out, right, to meet that. They would just, you know, say you're getting transferred to the feds right away. So like in my city, like I told you, it was pretty dangerous back then, still dangerous. They just had started working with the federal government and the state. Like a task force. Yeah, it was called Grenet, Greater Rochester Area Narcotics Enforcement Team. I think I was the third person to get busted, right, by them. So what

they were doing is they let me go to state court, but you know how state court goes. I had a phenomenal lawyer back then Tom Cacuzi. I'd have probably paid them 10 grand and got 90 days in the Willard program in New York. Yeah. So they're like, no way. We're taking him over to the federal building. And, you know, that was really the start where everybody from Rochester was going to federal court. You'd caught with crack and a gun. Your ass is out of here. So when, what do you get charged with when you make it to federal court? The first charge was conspiracy. And what's, distribute 50 grams or more crack cocaine? So what does that like entail? Like, what's, what's the guidelines range? What, what specifically did they have on you at that point?

So specifically on me, they had them wiretaps. They ended up doing some searches. They found some couple kilos, three keys, $220,000. They had a bunch of shit. But at the time, I don't really know what they got, right? So I'm facing 10 to life. As far as the guidelines goes, I was criminal history category 3, 32. I was up there with the crack back then, 50 Rams or more.

it would have probably been like um 121 to something 156 months something like that somewhere in that area but that isn't what happens you know they eventually supersede me and it just you on the case no it's me um the connect and unknown people oh they got all you guys together that's what makes it a conspiracy okay so they get really they just arrest two of us now we're you know we're going through a year later and they're like you know what we're superseding and they arrest some other people and they supersede me with 16 counts. So now my mandatory minimum goes from 10 to life to 40 to life. Now while this is going on, you're sitting in a detention center sitting in the county jail. Oh, it's a county jail. Can you talk about that like what that was like? Because like in my experience,

I wasn't in a county jail. I was at a private detention center when my bond got revoked. And then from there, I went to like the holdover facilities. So what was like the county jail like? Our county jail, again, ruthless. It's a depressing place, a lonely place. a place that's filled with violence. You know, I had been going to that jail since I was 16, right? I've been in and out of jail because I was an idiot back then. So, you know, I can just tell you the minor floors. They used to say, hey, man, they bring up a new guy that say it's barbecue.

We're going to barbecue today. But they don't really know what they mean. When they say barbecue, they're going to beat the shit out of you. And your blood is the barbecue sauce. So if you come up there, let's say you're from the west side, right? And we, in our pit, we called them pits. There's like, what, 13 people in there? We're from the northwest, west side, whatever.

We usually know each other. And you come in and you're from the east side. And they put you in our pit. They're going to destroy you back then. I'm talking about ruthlessly beat you. And you're just like, wow. And eventually, I ended up getting jumped in there in the county jail. They put me in what they called the white boy pit.

And I had an issue with this kid from our neighborhood. And he was there. He's been there. All these dudes are like following him, big kid. And they jumped me. So I end up fighting the whole pit, you know, 11, 12 people on me. I went to church, came back and they jumped me. But definitely the county jail is, it's different than prison, right?

I think it's, it might sound crazy, but I think the county jail is more dangerous. Isn't it kind of like designed to get you to like fold, take a deal, snitch or anything like that? Like, I've heard different perspectives from people. I think it's so miserable intentionally in that regard. I mean, let's keep it real, right? Like the federal government, do you really think they care if you go to trial? or plead guilty? I mean, they have unlimited money.

I mean, U.S. attorneys making, whatever he's made. Let's say he's making $100,000 a year, right? If he goes to trial or not. Some of them guys like to go to trial. I mean, they're getting experience because this is just, for a lot of them, it's just the step in their career, right? You know, you see a lot of U.S. attorneys go from U.S. attorney's office to, you know, senator, congressman, shooting for the White House,

you know, FBI director. You know, these guys are shooting for bigger things. They don't care about you. You know, people get it twisted. Like, oh, it's not 99% of the time. It's not personal. It's business. Now, do they do. Do they offer you a deal while you're sitting in the county?

Of course. What was the offer? The offer was 11 to 14. And what do you say to them? I tell my lawyer, hey, man, take it, but get the two years off for the gun. They give me a two-point enhancement for a weapon. I said, I can't get the drug program. If I can't get the drug program, I can't get the year off.

He's all right, man, I'm going to look into it. But he was doing a big death penalty case. He was too busy. So eventually they end up superseding my indictment with 16 more counts because he didn't tell them that I would take the offer. He never told them that you would, never. Never. Never. So wasn't that something you could have hit them with on appeal right away? Of course. I mean, well, what it is is it's an ineffective assistance of counsel claim. Yeah. So you can't really address an ineffective assistance of counsel on a direct appeal, not in federal court. You have to go through your appeal and then you come back on 2255 and you do that. Wow. And eventually I did make that argument and I lost. So when do you find out that he never told them? How does that go down? Well, I mean, I find out later on years later. Years later in the case. Oh, so you never knew. You thought. like, weren't you just sitting in the cell saying, hey, when are we signing the deal? What's going on? Well, he's telling me, I'm going to get you a better deal. Don't worry. I'm going to get you a better deal. And then it never materializes. And then I go to court. They call me to court one day and I got 16 more counts. They supersede the indictment. And at that point, you're like, screw this. I'm going to trial. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So for you go to a federal criminal trial. Are you on it like with other people or is it a joint trial or is it separated? So my co-defendant was going to trial with me. But like seven days before the trial.

started he copped out. He ended up taking a plea. He got 15 years. So it was a stop. It was just you on trial. Just me. What's that like being on a federal trial? It's, uh, it's lonely, man. It's lonely. You're in this. And I always relate this to, you know, when I was a kid, you'd watch Leave it the Beaver and stuff like that. When I walked into this courtroom, it looked like to me like some rich white people's den, like from Leave it to Beaver or the Brady bunch, right? And, you know, the judge is up there. He's real high and everybody's around. And you're like, damn, everybody's looking at you. So it's nerve-wracking, you're lonely. You know that you're guilty. Let's, you know, keep it real. I know that I'm guilty. What the hell am I doing going to a trial? I'm being stubborn, right?

The plea was 27 years on the day of trial. So I'm like, I'm not taking 27 years. He offered you 27 years on the day of trial. And you said no. I told my lawyer going there and tell him I'll take 17. He came back and said, they said 27. What's your mindset at that time? Like, what are you thinking? Because you, you're saying you knew you were guilty. They caught you. my mindset at that time is I'm thinking ignorantly right because I'm angry like oh man man 27 years my life's overweight anyway that's what you're thinking what's 40 and 27 same thing I'm never going to have a life so I might as well take a shot take a chance even though I know I'm guilty but sometimes you can't rationalize and you know like I told you before I own a

paralegal company right freedom fighters and you know you get so many dudes that go to trial when really they don't want to they know that they're guilty and then you regret it. Eventually you regret it. People can say what they want. And so, well, they got a conviction rate of 90-something percent because everybody cops out. No, that's not really the truth. They got a high conviction rate because most people that get arrested in there, they're guilty. So why do you think guys fight it and go to trial when they know? Like, what do you think? I mean, I'm sure you work with a lot of guys. What do you think the mindset is? Because like, I know why I went to trial personally, but you obviously deal with more people that go to trial. So what do you think that is that propels them? I think it's the pain, the hurt. the realization that man, you know, they offered you 20 years and you feel like, man, 20 years is forever. But really, when you do that kind of time, I did 17 years, five months, 21 days. When you do that kind of time, it's really not. Your life's really not over. But when you're 24 years old and you're thinking about 20 years, you believe that your life's over with and never really understanding, well, if I lose, I'm going to get 50 years. So instead of getting out at 45,

I might be getting out at 65. And that was my reality. Had I have taken a plea back, back then and he did the right thing, I would have been out when I was 33. But I go to trial and, you know, I'm sitting in prison. And I used to count it and say, wow, I'm going to get out when I'm 64. If you lost. Yeah. I mean, after I, even after I lost while I'm in prison, you know, there would be days where my heart would be racing, you know.

I wasn't, you know, I made it to a low my last nine months. But when you're sitting in that penitentiary, you know, people are getting murdered in there. People are getting stabbed in there. It's not a game. It's for real. I feel like people like in my scenario, I, had to like I'm a person that always thinks about the what ifs so I went to trial because like what if there's that chance that you win or it could turn out differently which is why I didn't take like a plea

deal so I feel like that's a big part of it too people are thinking well yeah I'm guilty but what if there like anything could happen like a juror could do something wrong there could be a tactical error the prosecutor could screw up so it gives someone like a little bit of hope I guess I mean I think that that goes back to the thinking of, yeah, you're hoping, you're hoping, but it's probably not going to happen. Just like you're probably not going to win the lotto today. That's true. So you're probably not going to get acquitted in federal court. Yeah. Because usually when you're in federal court, they have, you know, they built a case. They didn't just arrest you today and say, oh, we got lucky today. Those guys going hard. They're ready. Like, they bring the heat. And it's so scary, like, seeing

that side of the courtroom, like, you're sitting with just your lawyer and whoever's supporting you. and that side of the courtroom is like loaded. They have everyone. The agents, the U.S. attorneys, the whole nine yards. You know, let me tell you this. After I lost trial, right, and I ended up getting sentenced, people came from the U.S. Attorney's Office. They came down there to watch me get a 40-year sentence,

to watch my mother sit there and cry, you know, and they're like, high-five. I thought, you know, that's one thing that has absolutely burned me up. And it will for the rest of my life that these people, yeah, okay, you commit a crime. There has to be punishment. I agree with that. I deserve to go to prison, but I didn't deserve 40 years at 24.

And when these people are in there, like these college students and, you know, they're teaching them this stuff, they're in their high-fiving that they just sentenced me to 40 years. How could any person has any type of compassion, whether or not I was a drug dealer or not? How could you have compassion or how could you go home and, you know, spend the evening with your family and be like, damn, we just gave that dude 40 years. Well, no, he gave it to himself. Okay, but his mother was crying. And, you know, it's just, it's horrible that you should, it's not a, it's not a Christmas party.

It's not something joyous. Yeah, dehumanizes. I mean, like, I'm curious about like when you first heard like the guilty verdict, what their reactions were like, like the prosecutors, because I'm sure you're paying attention to how they are. Like what's their facial expressions? So let me tell you this, right? I mean, my prosecutor, I said earlier that most of the time it's not personal.

It did become personal with me. It became so personal with me where my judge on my compassionate release motion had to tell the prosecutor to relax, to be quiet, to sit down. It was personal. And he was excited. He was happy. He despised me. And, you know, I started to despise him because it wasn't just business with me. It was personal. And, you know, I mean, I got my reasons or why I believe that. I think that they felt like white people back then shouldn't be selling crack. And they, they were on me. I was a crack dealer. I'm not happy about it. I don't glamorize that life,

but that was the life that I lived, and it was personal. And they were happy. They were excited. I mean, regardless of what you did or didn't do, you're still a human being, you know,

at the end of the day. And I think that like gets lost in these things. I mean, you didn't kill anyone. You weren't there for a violent crime. You were there for selling drugs. Let me, let me tell you this, Ian, right?

Am I compassionate release motion? I am the person that wrote the first compassionate release motion in the country to ever win. I wrote the Conrado Cantoo case. I said, look, first step back past, I think I'm right. Do you want to do this? He used to be the mayor and the sheriff in Texas. He ended up with 24 years.

I'm like, you want to try it? We'll try it. We tried it and we won. I wrote my own. I wrote a Holloway motion. I don't know if you really know what Holloway was, but I wrote what was called a Holloway motion, then switched it to a 3582. And in my case, the judge ordered a hearing.

The government came in and pretty much brought the SIS guy there. They took pictures, all my tattoos. on my back. They made allegations about the dirty white boy gang. They just like, they just piled it on, right? So they found a cell phone chip in my cell. But it turns out that the SIS guys, he testified and lied. And the judge actually scolds him and says they have gone to every length, you know, to bang me, to destroy me. And the judge grants my compassionate release. On the eve of me getting out of prison, they file an appeal. I'm getting out in the morning. my family drives to Lexington, Kentucky to pick me out.

The dude asked me, hey, you got clothes? I said, no, they brought clothes. He's like, damn, man, if you had clothes, I'd send you out first. He said, I'm going to get these three guys with the clothes and then I got you. I'm like, all right. So then he's walking me out and I see the gate and they call on the walkie-talkie. Stop him. There's an appeal.

Stop him. They appealed my case. They had 90 days, man. You didn't appeal it right away. You waited to the day I was supposed to get out of jail. So they could delay it. And you filed an appeal. And you know what that's like to see my family in the parking lot?

Had I had clothes, I would have been in the parking lot. What would have happened then? I would have been out of there. That was like the same way I felt when I went to trial. It was like getting punched in the gut by Mike Tyson. What was the feeling like when the trial was over? Well, first off, how long was the trial? The trial was, I think, three week trial.

Okay, three weeks. The day the jury verdict is read, how many days were they deliberating for? A couple hours. Just a couple hours. Four of July weekend, I think it was. They wanted to go home. They had the same situation as me on Thanksgiving. Yeah.

It just rushes the whole thing. It's not what they tell you, right? The land of the free and the home of the brave and you've got the best system in the world and you're innocent until you're proven guilty and you went to trial. But, you know, they always get the last word. Well, that's because you're innocent.

Look, when you walk in front of a jury, they already got a picture painted of you, right? And they don't want to be there. Most of them don't want to be there. and they're like, yo, I'm out of here. They don't care about you. They don't know you. And there we go back to the compassion thing.

There is no compassion. They're like, yo, they don't care about you. I'm out of here. I think he's guilty. I mean, we see cases where, you know, there's hung juries and, you know, sometimes there's acquittals and stuff like that. But in a large majority of cases, no. You're innocent until proven guilty, but you're really guilty until proven innocent.

I think the thing that, like, disgusted me the most out of my whole situation was that, you know, the judge every day says don't go home. at news articles, look at your phone. I mean, it's, we're in the modern tech era where that's normal. Like, if someone tells me, don't Google something, I'm going to Google something. And when they Google Ian Bick, there's all the shit back then. There's articles coming out every day. Like, I just don't think that's fair to have that fair trial in that aspect. And then the other thing, which a lot of people don't know about the federal system is, so they came back and they were hung. And they said, we can't reach a verdict. And the judge was required to order them saying,

whatever the terminology is to go back and deliberate once more. Like he had to read something. That's when they came back. It's two days before Thanksgiving. And all of a sudden, they have a verdict. They go from we can't come up with it to now we have a verdict. So that's just like a screwed up. Like it's a screwed up system in that sense.

100%. 100%. Now what's the feeling like waiting? Like you guys do your closing arguments? What's going through your mind? Are you putting a jail cell waiting? Are you in the courtroom? What's like what's happening?

You know, I've never said this before on my show or anyone's show. You know, so when I went back, I remember getting on my knees and praying. You know, tough-ass Chad. Now I'm on my knees praying. You know, in courtroom I'm trying to have like I'm tough. But really, man, I'm hurt, deeply hurt. I know, man. That the only way that I win here is if God intervenes, I guess, right?

And I guess he did. He said, you know what? You're not ready yet, man. I'm about to send you to prison for 17, 18 years based off of your actions. That's the reality. So, yeah, I got on my knees and I was in there praying, man. And, yeah, you have that glimmer of hope like, man, if they find me not guilty, man, I'm going home today and I'm going to eat. That's the first thing I was thinking.

If I did get found out, I'm going to have something real to eat, you know? Ain't that crazy? But that's what keeps people going. You know, like I think the second you lose hope is the second people start contemplating, like, suicide or getting back into a. addiction. Like there's always hope and it's not even just in relation to our situation. There's hope like that that girl or guy could like you. There's hope about getting that job. It's just like that continued. You always need like that little bit of hope. So you get called into the courtroom. The jury verdicts read. What, what's what are you feeling?

I mean, it's just, you know, it's it's hurt, man. It's pain. It's something where in your heart, you're like, damn, man, this is it. My life's over. You know, that, that, That's what I'm thinking. And it was guilty on every count. On every count. Not even one, not guilty, nothing. No, and I supposedly had one of the best lawyers where I'm from. Death penalty lawyer.

He never had time for my case. Paid 40 grand for a lawyer that I got 40 years for. And he was a paid attorney. Paid attorney. Do you think looking back on it now, you would have just got a public defender? Or it didn't matter. I mean, it didn't matter. It doesn't matter.

You're better off saving your money. I mean, that's just keeping it real, right? In the federal system, they say like the public defenders aren't even that bad because they're like regular regular practicing attorneys that just do the like the public defender aspect on the side. I mean, I just did a case with the head federal defender from Brooklyn, Deidre von Dornham, one of the best lawyers in the country. She's the head federal defender. I actually did a case while I was in Raybrook and we won. Kid had 25 years. I wrote it was 2255.

We won. He got immediate release. And she was the appointed attorney. So then I had one of my boys from Ray Brook wrote me like, Chad, man, I got the, you know, I need a compassionate release. He got the 924C stacking with the robberies. And he's like, dude, really, I don't have much money. I'm like, dude, I'm just going to do it for you. And I did it.

He ended up sending me like 200 bucks on cash up. So I do it. We submit it. The court appoints, you know, the federal defender and it's her. So I see her. I'm like, oh, I got to call her. She's like, oh, my God, Chad, how are you? I'm glad you got out.

And we worked on the case together. We wrote the reply together. And we just got his 35 year sentence slash down to 17. That's awesome. So some federal defenders are good. Yeah. Now, when you go back to your cell that night, are you contemplating suicide? What's your mindset?

Like, you just got convicted and you know you're facing life in prison at this point. My mindset is not that I want to kill myself. They wanted to put me on suicide watch. And I'm like, dude, I'm good. I don't need suicide watch. I'm straight. I'm all the way good. And I just wanted to be around people because I was hurt.

I was lonely. I was sad. That's the reality. I just needed to be around people and be able to talk to people and try to sort through my feelings and my emotions, man. Were you able to do that successfully at that time? I mean, I think it was a lot easier to be around people than being locked in a cell all by yourself all alone with your thoughts. When you do, read a book? No, you're thinking about your life. I think when you do stuff like that and you put people on suicide watch, you make it worse.

You know, I was actually a suicide companion in prison. You make it worse because you're alone. No one wants to be alone at a time like that. You want to be able to pick up the phone and let's keep it real, bro. Your mother's going to always be there 99% of the time. You want to call your mom. That's the person that comforted me all my life. What's that first conversation like with your mother after trial?

I mean, she's just crying. Crying. Couldn't even talk to her. And your siblings? My sister too. Just, you know, they know. And, you know, you try to be strong. Like, well, look, I got appeals.

We're going to win this. And, you know, I had told my mom that for years that, you know, I'm going to win. Hang in there, man. got some issues and everybody else, man, even, you know, people very, very close to me would tell my mom, he's not never getting out, you know, just you got to stop. You got to stop. And my mother always believed, man, she always believed that I was going to get out. And I kept telling her, I'm going to get out of here. Don't worry. I'm getting out. You know, next appeal, I'm going to get out. And then eventually I do get out, you know, who thought that Trump would pass the first step back.

That's how I got out. Did she know that you were committing the crimes that you were committing at the time? Did she try to stop you at all? Every time. My mother told me in 2002, around Christmas time, I remember this conversation where she said, this year, you're going to end up killing someone or you're going to end up dead. That's it. She didn't say prison. She said, you're going to end up dead or you're going to kill somebody.

And that year I ended up in prison. So you could say I was dead. I ended up with a 40-year prison sentence. Which is basically like a life-ending blow at that point. You're 20 years old and 40 years. That's a long time. even good, good time aside and whatever, you're still doing, what, 35 years on that? Yeah, 100%.

Whatever it is. About 34 years and some change. Day of sentencing, what's that like? You're in federal court about to be sentenced. So I hire a new attorney out of Buffalo, Thomas Theophilus, great guy. He comes in the back. He says, look, man, he said, you're probably getting 60 years today. He said, I don't think he's going to give you life, but he's going to give you 60 years.

And I'm like, well, dude, I mean, 60 years, I'll be like, I'm not going to make it out anyway. But we go in there and he makes a bunch of arguments and he argues for the mandatory minimum. The mandatory minimum is 40 years. So you were facing, you went into that courtroom knowing you were at 40. Yeah. That was my mandatory minimum. Wow. Mandatory minimum was 40 years.

So that was it. I couldn't even imagine like getting myself up walking into a courtroom because I think the time after trial and by the time you get sentenced, you're just in limbo. That's like when you're in the detention center, you don't know what your fate is. Like you don't have an expiration date. I would rather see an expiration date of like whatever knowing than, you know, being in limbo not knowing how long you're being held for. Well, I mean, hey, when you don't know, you're always like hoping. You still got that hope though, you know, but I knew, hey, my mandatory minimums 40 years. And the judge told me when he sentenced me. He said, it's hard for me not to give you a life sentence for what, you know, the violence. There was violence in the case. I was convicted of a nonviolent crime. But there was violence in the case. He says, it's hard for me not to give you life. He said, but I'm going to act in a moment of compassion. and I'm going to give you the mandatory minimum for the sake of your mother.

Did you speak during sentencing? Not really, no. I did. I said something about how the government was giving one of the co-defendants a plea deal when he was the dude that lit this dude on fire in my case and hit someone in the head with a two-by-four. He pistol-wit people in the case. I said, but if I'm getting 40 years, then we all should get 40, right?

Now on the violence factor, because we didn't really touch on that. I want to finish that, though. Okay. So your viewers don't misinterpret what I'm saying. Okay. I'm already convicted. He already testified at my trial. He was on the stand for like five days.

And that's why I said what I said. I said, if I'm getting 40, we should all get 40. But these are the people that the government gives deals to. You talk about you want to, you know, protect the public and this and that. And, you know, you're banging me with the 40. And this dude lit people on fire in the case. But because he cooperated, he gets a 10-year sentence or nine-year sentence. They pick and choose who they want.

They want that. I mean, my co-defendant, they gave him the best deal. an immunity deal and he got probation in the state because they wanted me. They focus on who they want and it's like whatever. They put everyone else's crimes aside that's involved to get that bigger fish. In this scenario, you were the bigger fish in their eyes, which is crazy how they do that. It should just be like an equal playing field. Because I'm sure a jury, if a jury saw both you and your partner and they're laying out the evidence, there probably would have been enough to convict based off of that. Do you think they necessarily needed your co-defendant

in this? No, not at all. Not at all. He just, you know, like I said, the dude made it personal for me. That's wild. Now, the violence aspect of it was anytime like violence was committed, was that was it with people that were involved in the actual drug game themselves? So, you know, like I talked about this dude that got lit on fire in my case. His name was Abdul, right? He was a Muslim dude that worked at the store, started hanging out with the prostitutes, started getting high. And the kid in my case fell asleep. You know, like we talked about them little film bottles

and he had one of them film bottles and dude reached in his pants and took his drugs while he was asleep. So he wakes up, dude's not there, he finds him, brings him back to the house and honestly,

dude, he poured some stuff on him and lit him on fire. And you're there while this is happening? I'm not there, no. They call me. I come there and I take him to the hospital.

Wow. I had a 9080 clips back then or, yeah, Mitsubishi clips back then, all nice leather. I put him in my car and he caught him with a razor,

played. I put him in the car. And I'm like, dude, what are you doing, bro? Like, you're lighting people on fire? Like, what's up? And I put dude in the car and take him to the hospital. Wow. So did you have like rules as like a drug dealer, like principles about like what, how you abided by? I mean, I was respectful to everybody. Like my boys, you know, my buddy I brought and I got another right hand dude that was involved in the game. They would, you know, do some stuff to people, man. You know, like, you know, because they think because they're drug addicts, you know, you just treat them like shit. I didn't really do that, man. Everybody liked me because I did, you know, it's crazy, right, to say this, but, you know, I treated people with respect, man, even selling drugs. Rules,

yeah, rules was don't rob the customers, obviously. Don't be over here. Like, we had dudes man, like, doing dumb shit. Like, one of the houses that we got busted for, there was a store across the street. And this kid that I told you about that lit the fire, he's shooting the windows out of the place. He trades a paintball gun for a 22 rifle, which I ended up getting 20, years for that 22 rifle. He's shooting the windows out of the store. What do you think's going to happen? The police are going to come over here.

Like, you can't do stuff like this. And when you do stuff like that, it brings heat on the house. And the cops are over there to stop in the customers. And next thing you know, they bust the house. They hit it with a tank. You ever see them tanks with the, you know, they got like the plane down the front? Yeah. Well, that's what they did.

They were afraid to come in. It was officer awareness. I had officer awareness for me. Wow. Where they thought that, you know, I might do something to the police. but this was the stuff that they drummed up in their head. Yeah. They made this shit out.

You know, not based on facts. It's just like, he's a dangerous guy. You know, one person says it. Now two people say it. Two turns into four, four turns into eight. I'm not in the house, but they hit the house with a tank. So you always had like a good head on your shoulders. Like you knew there were certain things you didn't want to get involved with.

You were like laying down the rules with your crew and whatnot. So you've always just been like the stand up guy in that aspect of it. I mean, I don't want to say a drug dealer is a stand up guy. You know what I mean? But you had character. I did have some character. I did have some morals. I didn't mistreat people.

Like I said, man, my father was probably one of the most famous drug addicts in our neighborhood. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstars. Catch the Jonas Brothers return to the Yamava Theater stage on April 30th. The powerful vocals of Demi Lovato on May 17th and the signature Southern Country Rock of Eric Church on July 19th. Tickets on sale now at yamava Theater.com, only at Yamava Resort and Casino, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You in? Must be 21 to enter. What's the difference between butter and butter made from real California dairy? It's the real California farm families behind it.

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Geek and Chuck? Yeah. What does that mean? He was always, you know, whenever he smoked crack, he'd be chewing out his tongue and turn his hat up like this. And, you know, and it was embarrassing, my friends. But, man, your dad's geek and Chuck. So, you know, I just, I felt pain too,

because my dad ended up coming back from Las Vegas and, you know, he'd smoke and crack. Not back with my mom by any stretch of the imagination, but my dad was a well-known crack kid in our neighborhood. So I did have compassion. Man, my father was a drug addict. You know, my uncles and family members were crack smokers, bro. So I tried not to really disrespect people because of their drug addiction. And then it's just common sense, right?

These are the people you want to come. And let's keep it real. Dude, a lot of the people were white drug addicts. Those were the people that came with the money from the substance. suburbs and they felt safe coming to our house. So they spent their money with us. So of course, anytime, you know, you have a business, no matter what it is, you want a good product. You want to treat the people with hospitality, I guess. And, you know, that's, that's kind of the, what I did, man. And do you think seeing like your dad and people that were close to you battling these addictions

motivate you to not follow that same path? 100%. Not a doubt in my mind. Here's the other flip side. My sister, she don't smoke. She don't do none of that stuff. either, never smoked weed, none of that. So it's both of us, who my mother raised. So, yeah, I think that had an effect. That's great. My sister still lives there, still lives in that neighborhood. Kid just got murdered there not too long ago in front of her house. I mean, it's, you know, she hasn't gotten out of there, but that's where we're from, man. But she's not letting, like, that area define who she is as a person. No, but she knows she's got to get out of there. I recently moved my mom to an area where I live, where I live in a nice area now.

I went right in my mother's house. Three houses down, they killed someone. Two weeks later, they killed a guy at the corner. I went in her and saw, hey, get your stuff. You're moving. She's like, I'm not moving. I said, you're moving today. I went and got her rented her apartment, and I got a U-Haul, and I moved her in two days.

She was out of her house. Left all her stuff there. I left her couch there. I bought her new furniture. I left all her Christmas stuff that she still flips out about. You're out of here. You're not living here no more. It's time to go.

Did you have friends that stuck with you that were not part of the drug business that stuck with you through the trial and then the beginning of your prison sentence? From our neighborhood, none of us were kids that weren't involved in selling drugs. So they were all involved in? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like I said, I brought my buddy here with me. He was the first dude I started selling drugs with back then. And, you know, of course, we talk on the phone throughout the year, hey, what's that man?

How you doing? Damn, bro. I feel bad for you. My right-hand man kid that was, you know, I tell people he's my brother. He was my best friend, man. And, you know, a couple times he would send me money. money or whatever, but our relationship wasn't. And then as soon as I got out, I ended up helping him, man. Now he's drug addicted. Like, what happened to all the, all the drug dealers? Man, you guys are all

drug addicted. You know, you got, you're messed up. So I got him off drugs, helping get his life together. And, you know, he's doing all right now. So, and he, you know, honestly, he's, he's a gangster, for real, bro. Even though he started using drugs, he was, he's a gangster. Yeah. Now, you get that 40-year prison sentence. What's that first conversation with your wife like? Well, we had that conversation before I got the 40 years. Oh, you had that conversation before? Yeah. I mean, there was a plea for 27 years, you know, or 25, 27.

And I'm like, it's over, man. Did it hurt? Hell, yeah, it hurt. It was shocking. You know, it was like, damn, man, I loved her. I cared about her. You know, when you go to jail, and I'm sure you probably know this, everybody loves everybody, right?

When you go to jail, like, man, I love my girl. And you're like, man, I love my, whatever. I love my kids, but, you know, you're out here robbing people. but I just went through some stuff with her, man, and I was hurt deeply, man, deeply, deeply hurt. Do you feel like you knew that's what you had to do? You had to let her go because as a man, like you got yourself into that situation. This is what, and you couldn't hold her back from seeing other people and pursuing.

I mean, this is the deal, bro. She was young. She was pretty. I ended up, you know, I'm facing at least 20 years at that time. Like, they superseded the indictment. There's no way out of this. Yeah. And I'm like, I had to accept that she had to go on with her life.

She couldn't wait for me. 40 years. I mean, that's selfish, right? But in that state, you want to be selfish. You're like, please wait for me. But then eventually as you get older, man, reality kicks. And you're like, wow, she did have to go on with her life. And she did.

But to be, I'm amazed that you're like 23 years old. You're able to have that conversation because there's guys like my age now, I'm 27 or even younger, that aren't facing prison time. but they're selfish and they're not mature enough to have a girlfriend and they won't let their girlfriend go because they deserve better or whatever it is. So to have that, that's pretty remarkable at that age to be able to have that conversation. Well, I didn't want to let her go. You know what I mean? But you did. You ultimately did. Well, she let herself go. Yeah. I don't want to come across as, you know, saying something that didn't really happen. She came to see me in the county jail. And she said,

look, you know, I'm tired. I'm tired of being alone. You know, my cousin, who's her cousin, she's like, My cousin, you know, she just got engaged at Christmas at my grandmother's house and I want someone to take me out to dinner. I want to be normal. And she's like, I love you and I care about you and I got to go out with my life. And I hurt for many, many years over it, man. Many, many years. It took me years to get over it.

And I don't think I ever really got over it because when I won my case, I told one of my home boys that I'm in there with an older dude, been in Victorville, Atwater, old school dude. And he's just like, bro, you want the truth? he's like let her go man she's got a life she i mean she was already she remarried and had kids and went on with her life and i was like damn bro you think she'll want to see me he's like do let her go and then eventually i get out of jail for those that don't know um i looked i looked her up on facebook seeing her pictures and it hurt me and eventually her mother contacts me and says hey you know we're

happy that you're out and you know she would like to talk to you there was a lot of things left unsaid I'm like, I'm in my mind like, nah, this probably ain't what's best. You know what I mean? But eventually she came to my house, dude, knocked on my door. And I'm like, look, you need to go home and be with your family and just forget about me. Go on with your life. You know, and it hurt me to say that. And she's like, I can.

I just can't. And eventually, for those that don't know the whole story, we end up getting remarried. And we got two little 17-month-old twin baby boys, man. Do you think she was like your soulmate? Like that was the person that you were meant for? I do. And then she weathered that storm for you. I mean, distance apart and time apart.

Like sometimes you have to let things go and see if they come back or not. Something like that. But let me tell you this. Even her coming back in my life, it wasn't always good. It wasn't always great. I dealt with a lot of stuff where I was like, look, man, I suffered over you. You know, I suffered, man. I'm just going to keep it right.

I suffered. I was like, look, there was a lot of hurt, a lot of pain. I didn't know if I was, you know, getting out of prison after doing damn near 18 years. I didn't know if I was a, you know, I wanted to believe that, yeah, I'm all right. I'm going to get out here and be normal. I don't have PTSD and I can get over the past and I can live a good life. And it all sounds good until you get here. Then it gets real.

So we've had some, you know, we had some issues in the beginning of the relationship where I told just go on with your life, man. Forget about me. I don't, I don't think I want to do this, you know, and it went back and forth. but eventually man you know we work things out i've been home almost three years and june it'll be three years yeah and like i said we got two little boys we own a house um i own my vehicle she owns her vehicle that's great we're living our best life man you know what i mean i mean i think like some of the biggest pain i've ever experienced in life is losing something you're not prepared to lose at the time like when it gets taken away like i've lost so much like even just with my criminal case like

it took away girlfriends it took away friends like and i wasn't prepared to lose that stuff so that stuff haunts you for a long time. And until you fully let it go, you know, it keeps like catching up with you in ways like mentally. It just like fucks with you. So I can't imagine you being in that cell and just thinking about those things. You know, like I said, I had to find something to keep my mind off it. So I played basketball every day, all day.

And then at night I do legal work. And, you know, for many, many years, I was messed up. And then in 2009, I had her number. for years and I called it. And when she answered, I hung up the phone. And then I called it right back. And then she hung up the phone. And I told my sister call her, man.

And my sister called her and she said, look, tell your brother, you know, I love him. I'll always love him. I'll always care about him. But I have a different life now. You know what? I hope the best for him. And had he not went to prison, we'd have been together for the rest of our lives. And that was the first time where I kind of felt like I finally had some type of closure,

where I was starting to get a little bit better. but for years, man, it hurt me for years. And that's almost a decade into your prison sentence. Yeah. Now, let's focus on the prison aspect. Where are you sent to for your first official prison stay? My first official prison was USP Big Sandy. Now, what is Big Sandy for people that don't know?

Hands down, some people might disagree, but I think it was the most dangerous federal prison in the country at the time. I went there when it was for real, when it was popping, when people were killing, people were stabbing. You know, eventually my cellie, he's from New York. He stabs the CO seven or eight times over some wine. It's definitely a dangerous place.

The first day on there, they sent a dude out on a stretcher that's trying to do some, you know, some sex stuff to another white kid and the white dudes just pound him out and he leaves on a stretcher. A kid named Skeeter from Tennessee.

That was my first day. Then I'm in the unit and this dude from New York, black dude from New York, slaps the CO. Just slaps the CO. Yeah, he slaps the CO. And everybody in our unit, all the black dudes, and, you know, I know you had Johnny on.

And he talks about Homicide Lou all the time. He's the shock caller, man, for the New York car. They surround the cop. And the cop touches his face and says, what did I do? What did I do? What do you? I'm like, this is federal prison. He slapped the cop in the day room.

And the cop was scared to death. And you're 23 at this point, 24. I'm a little older after I get sentenced. Okay, a little older. Who do you ride with? Like, who are you grouping yourself with? So immediately when you walk into a USB, the white dudes approach you. You know, I talk about this in my book.

What it's like on that first day when you walk in, you walk into prison and the white dudes approach you, who you run with. You're like, they're like, you're white? You're like, well, last time I checked I am, they're like, you're running with the white dudes. I'm like, yeah. You know, I had already heard all this stuff. And I had some homeboys over there that were, you know, that had made it a big Sandy just before me. So I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, they got you going in this cell with this.

kid from Rochester that's white and a white boy hatchet and they're like dude he runs with the blacks you can't go in there i'm like all right and they're like we're going to find you a place you're going to go in with this cat or this cat and one of the dudes was like this super white supremacist dude and they're like you know he just started a race ride in the unit a couple months i'm like dude i'm not going in the room with that cat so i end up going in the room with this old man mr young from tennessee so and you know immediately you know how this goes you got to have your paperwork within 30 days You got to, you know, get a knife. You have to have a knife.

In a penitence of rule. I mean, yeah, pretty much. You have to have a knife. Now, how much influence do these shot callers have in the prison? Like, can they move your cell? What can they do? Back then they could. Just do whatever.

Yeah, just tell the cop. Hey, he's going in this cell right here. This is what it is. How much power do shot callers have? Let's talk about reality. You want your viewers to know about federal prison and no reality. Yeah.

They have a lot of power. They manipulate people, man. And sometimes it comes from the time that you had in, the stories that you tell people. The shock caller then was Stevie Burke from Boston. One of the dudes from the town, the movie The Town is loosely based on, you know, their case. Stevie has the car. Very well-known guy in a federal prison system, little skinny guy. And I'm like, damn, this dude's telling dudes what to do.

But you have so many dudes in prison that have never been leaders in their lives, right? So they got a leader now. And no matter what the leader says, they're going to do. They want to please the leader. You know, man, I need someone to stab this dude. You'd be shocked at how many people raise their hand. I'd be like, bro, I'll stab them. I'll get them tonight.

What do you want me to do? And, you know, like I said, I was semi-intelligent. I used to be like, these motherfuckers are out of their minds. That's what I was thinking, literally. I wasn't signing up. But, you know, they acted like because, you know, New York, we had a Boston, East Coast car, Boston and New York, My cellie was Adam Oliveary, who eventually stabs the cop at Big Sandy.

Adam was probably the toughest white dude on that compound, hands down. But Steve was the shot caller. Adam was like second in command. And they acted like, well, you know, you're young, you're a big kid. You're from New York. We're not going to send you on dummy missions. We got all these other dummies. And that's really how they talked about these dudes.

The dummies in the car, the lames. You know, they use this word lame. And I don't subscribe to that stuff, man. You know, as I got older and realized the life that we were living, so many people are in federal prison in a maximum security. prison, faking it to make it. You know, you were in a low or whatever, and you guys probably all heard the stories about the USP and, man, I don't want to go to the USP.

Well, fuck, I didn't want to go there either. But I'm here now, and this is the life that I'm living. But there's so many dudes that are there, they're like, damn, bro, I really don't want to be here. But I'm going to pretend. I'm going to give you an example. There was this dude, really dangerous dude, viciously violent white dude, put in that work, do whatever.

But really, man, I used to be like, man, this dude really ain't. he was kind of goofy, right? And usually if you can't play sports, you probably can't fight too well, in most cases. He's kind of goofy. But man, he did some viciously violent things to people.

And eventually, man, he makes it down lower security. And he becomes this full-fledged Christian, bro. Bible thumper, but a gangster in the penitentiary. Yeah. You know, he was living a life that he really didn't want to live, man.

Were there things you had to do personally that you needed to do in order to, like, fit in with the group and to survive a situation? essentially? Of course, man. I mean, you know, they call it putting in work. We had a dude that, you know, he got drunk, was using the N-word. And they're like, yo, you know, you got to do something. You got to show something. So we went in the cell and they're like, yo, you got to stab them. And I'm like, dude, I'm not stabbing. I really was like, dude, I'm not stabbing the dude.

We'll just beat the brakes off this dude. And that's what we did, man. And you know what, man? Ian, I felt so much anger and, you know, hostility in me. And I regret doing this now. Because I do feel bad for what I did. But I enjoyed it for the moment when we were beating us. Then he goes downstairs and he starts yelling, you white bitch ass, look what you did to me. And bloody and my boy runs up, kicks him in the ass. There was another thing on the baseball court, I mean on the basketball, on the baseball field.

Whereas this kid from Minnesota, he's in the East Coast car. He's making the knives. They're using them, right? And he does some disrespectful stuff. And there's serenials out there, South Siders. and he said, you know, he invited people to his midsection. So I just tagged him a couple times. And, you know, that kind of made things better.

And eventually that night or the next night, Boltz, if Boltz is watching your show, he should hit you or me up. They're like, yo, bolts, man, we're going to have you, you know, get rid of this dude. And he comes to our unit and they pound him out and get him off the compound. But, you know, we've done some bad things to people, man, that I do regret. Now, there's different types of white boy gangs or, white gangs in prison. Like there's some that are racist or some that are not and there's different groupings, right? Yeah. There's all different gangs, white gangs, SACs, soldiers of Aryan culture,

DWBs were pretty prominent once upon a time. Arm, they were pretty dangerous dudes. But for me, the most dangerous white gang in federal prison, it's not the A-Bs anymore. That stuff faded out. I mean, they got a big indictment now and eventually they're going to come in. But you'll be on a compound with, you know, one AB, but now you got 15 dirty white boys. Who do you think is going to control the compound? That's what people associate gangs, what they always say. My comments are, were you in the Aryan brotherhood? This and that. First off, that doesn't happen in lows and camps, but a lot of people are curious about, like, what that gang structure is like. To me, the most dangerous gang in federal prison, white gang was sack. Soldiers of Aryan culture.

They were dangerous, dangerous dudes, played no games. I had a couple dudes I was really close with. actually chaos Jeremiah Kirby looks a lot like you I should send you a picture of him I ended up doing his case and got him out um he you know he went to prison young but he was a very very dangerous dude very influential um just got him out about three weeks ago so now did you have like a prison nickname what were they calling you Chad just Chad you didn't have a cool nickname or anything no I guess that's maybe for the better though I just don't talk about certain things okay now um prison hustle did you develop like a prison hustle while you were there. I've always been a hustler, bro. No matter where I'm at, what I'm doing, always. I did things in prison that, you know, a hustle. We'll say that.

I also had a snow cone business. A snow cone in prison. In prison. In prison, in USP. How do you make a prison snow cone? Okay. So what you would do is you would take in that bag, fill it with ice. Remember the big gray boxes?

Did you have gray boxes over there? For the ice bins? Yeah, well, people would put sodas in it and all that. Yeah. So you put a garbage bag in there. And then you remember them big black. gloves from the chow hall yeah so you got these big black gloves you beat the ice boom boom boom then you put it over the top of that gray bin with a garbage bag in there and you take them black gloves because

if not your hands are going to be cut and cold and you're touching the ice and you just start you know moving it and it starts flying out of them little holes in the net bag right so now you got these you know this big ass garbage bag full of chipped ice remember the hot sauce bottles yeah you fill them with kool-aid you know get the kool-klaid mix from the kitchen or from commissary usually the kitchen because you know you buy it cheaper and you're out there making snow cones, man, with paper cups. Wow. How much would you sell a snow cone? A dollar, four stamps.

Stamps for 25 cents a piece back then. What was the currency at the US pay too? Everywhere I've been in stamps. Never mackerel's or anything? You know what? When I went to Lexington, it was mackrels for like three months. Okay. And then they changed, you had some big time.

It was it came there and they changed the currency. So what did the shot callers get together and say, hey, we're changing the currency on the compound? Yeah. Wow. So do you guys have like meetings like in the gang? Or they're like nightly meetings? what's a structure? There's always meetings.

But, you know, like with Stevie Burke, the dude I talked about earlier, you know, we would have meetings where he wanted people to see how many people we had. We're having a meeting. There's 110 white dudes out there because there's power in numbers no matter where you're at. You know, even if you've got 110 people and 50 of them won't fight or 50 of them are scared. Well, now they will fight because they got another 70 other people to help them, right? So he wanted other white gangs to see that we had the numbers, man.

So if you get out of line, this is what it is. We got the numbers. Now, I'm curious about this because I asked the two brothers that were on my show. Did you wear the boots to the shower, like walk with the boots? 100%. And what's the like the logic and reasoning? Well, you ever get in a fight or ever seen anyone getting a fighting shower shoes? You're slipping and sliding.

So you wear your boots to the shower. You usually have a lookout. Someone stands in front of the shower for you. Your homeboys holding you down. I always went to the shower with a knife. I had a fiberglass knife that I kept. And your partner's got a, he's got a knife too. And he's standing out there in front of it.

See, the showers are different in the penitentiary. I don't know about where you were at, but we got cages on them. Because when there's a lockdown, they cuff you, walk you to the shower, put you in there. Lock it. Put your hands to the slot. Unlock your cuffs. So, you know, you always close that metal grate. You get the shower.

Your home boy's there for you. I would always dry my feet in the shower. I brought my chair with me, sit in my chair, dry my feet, put my boots on. Because anything can happen at any guys. at the same time. You might not even be involved. Like, here's another example. And I actually put the video up on YouTube, and it's on there on my channel where something happened in Polack.

And, dude comes in and says, hey, man, first white dude that comes in, I'm killing him. And he did. He stabbed the dude in the neck. Dude didn't even know. They called him Bubba Sparks, not the rapper. But he stabs Bubba.

And I put the video up where Bubba gets murdered. So Bubba runs to his cell. He's like, yo, bro, he stabbed me. Bro, he stabbed me. And his cellie's like, yo, bro, I'm about to kill. him. And he goes out there with a knife and they start knife fighting. He hits the dude in the neck a couple times. He falls on the ground and he kills him. That's wild. Yeah. So you could be something could happen in A4 and they send a message and they do it sign language through the window like, hey, hit them dudes.

Hit them white dudes or, you know, hit this gang or hit that group. And next thing you know. You've got to be ready to go. You're watching TV, man. You're all involved in the voice. You know what I mean? Yeah. And someone walks up behind you and stabs you in the neck. Did you get tattoos in prison at all? My whole back. You got your back done. What's that like at a USB? I saw how it went down at a low. What's the tattooing process like in a penitentiary?

Dude, we had cops in our unit that were like, yo, I don't care what you guys do. If my lieutenant comes, just stop, you know, stop tattooing. And what would they use for the needles, for the ink? Mine was a guitar string most of the time. And the ink they make it. They make it with chest pieces, Vaseline. They burn the soot.

They do all kinds of crazy shit. Has it faded? over time? I don't know. Have you gotten touched up at all or anything like that? No. You want to see it? You want to do it on your show or no?

I mean, we can't if you want to show us. You got that whole piece done in prison? Wow. That's wild. That is crazy. So for anyone that's just listening to the podcast right now, come to our YouTube channel, Ian Bick, C.T. And you can see Chad Mark's full tattoo.

That's how long did that take you? Um, it depends, man. I got both of my sides done. Kid did my side in three and a half hours and dude, vicious, both sides, about three and and a half hours for each side. Was there ever a time where you're getting tattooed and something pops off? Like, and you have to like get up and it gets screwed up. You know, it's crazy to say that because eventually I ended up going to Raybrook and I had this

Mexican kid, I'm real close with South Sider, Spanky. He was doing something. That pot on my, was it the pot? The gold pot with the four leaf plover? And something happened where they were sending up a sex offender. When I say sending them up, that means they were sending them to the protective custody. They were beating them up. And we had to stop.

And then, now, listen, I got all them tattoos, but dude, I'm like, man, I'm like, I'm not doing no more. And he's like, after, you know, they lock us down, they block the dude up. And we come out like 30 minutes later, he's like, you ready? He's, oh, you ready, fool? And I'm like, he's from L.A. and I'm like, bro, I'm not going, no, I'm not ready. And I didn't have them, you know, finish it for another two, three weeks until after it healed. Wow.

That shit hurts, bro. I don't care what no one says. What do you use for like aftercare? Honestly, dude, nothing. Just soap. Just cleaning. That's it? Yeah, I use dial soap.

Wow, you're going to put a lot of tattoo shops out of business by saying that that it heals on its own. Dude, all that stuff that they say, dude, I never had an issue. All my tattoos are from prison. Now, how long into your prison sentence are like, I'm not fucking. around anymore. I want to get focused and you get into doing the legal work. So I'm doing the legal work as soon as I go to jail, right? I'm fighting my own case. I'm learning or whatever. And eventually I end up in USP Coleman and I start doing legal work over there. But when I really started to change my life was more, I changed my life when I'm on the bus. I'm in USP Lee and Cedric Dean, who the dude I

asked you, he spoke at that same reentry conference, you were at. And he's like, hey, man, come to this Leaders breed leaders class, man. You know, they're going to change the law. What are you going to tell him? You know that you stab this dude? You fought that guy? Come in my class, man. So I go to his class, kind of in one ear and out the other.

But a few years later, I'm on the bus and I'm going to Raybrook. And he's on the bus. And he's like, oh, man, you remember me? I'm like, yeah, he's a real educated dude did 25 years, turned his life around, ran for Merr and Charlotte and everything since he's been out. Been in a couple, just a good dude, man. One of the most intelligent dudes I ever met. And he is the reason why I'm probably one of the main reasons I'm out of prison.

And I'll tell you about that in a second. But I'm on the bus. Like, yo, you remember me? I'm like, yeah, man, I remember you, man. He's like, what you've been doing the last four or five years, man? Nothing. I ain't been doing nothing. Well, so you made it to FCI.

Yeah, but I ain't really been doing shit. He's like, look, man, I'm telling you they're changing the law. Man, you need to start programming. I'm going to get an education over here. I know the supervisor. I'm going to help you out. Get you a job over there. And, you know, it was probably eight years, nine years into my bid when I started to turn my life around.

I'm going to an FCI. And I'm finally back close to home. I'm in New York. FCI is a medium? Yeah. What was the class, like, how did you get to the medium? Like, how many years do you have to have left? I mean, dude, you can go to a medium with life.

Oh, you can. They send lifers. I've been a mediums with life. I got a client right now that's got life. Oh, I wasn't aware of that. That's in a medium. Okay. You can go there as long as you, you know, you got to behave and program for a certain

amount of time. And really, you know, I had stayed out of the way for a little bit. So they're like, hey, man, you're heading to an FCI. So I finally make it back to New York, dude. And that hurt me too. because now I smell the pine trees. It's like on the way driving here. And I'm like, damn, man, I'm so close yet so far away.

So I may get to an FCI and I still got, what, 30 years left with good time, what, 24? And I'm like, damn, man, I'm home. I used to come. You know, I fought in the Junior Olympics up there and driving there and just seeing that stuff. I'm like, damn, man. This is a lot of memories. Yeah, man. And it hurt.

And then I had finally seen my parents, my mother, eight years later. I hadn't seen my mom in seven or eight years. bro and I finally get close to home and she comes to see me and she looked totally different she looked old and you know her voice was still the same on the phone but her she didn't look the same bro yeah and that's when you said I'm changing my life yeah pretty much I said I gotta turn my life around and said you know I started programming and stuff and I'm thinking you know I'm programming but never getting out of jail right but I'm still going to programs he's like you got to write

the judge and tell the judge what you're doing I'm like man I ain't writing the judge he's like man write the judge so I'm like all right I write the judge never expecting to hear back. Three weeks later, I get a letter back from the judge and says, you were always an intelligent young man. You just did it the wrong way. So then I would write them. Everything that I was doing, I was writing them. I was writing them. Sending them, hey, look, I did this. I took a college course. You know, I got a college degree. I did this. You know, I'm facilitating alternative violence project seminars. And I keep sending the stuff to the judge. The law hasn't changed yet. Don't even know if it's really going to change, right?

But I've been sending this stuff to him. And eventually, I ask him for a recommendation for clemency, and he gives it to me, the judge. I get denied by Obama on his last day, but the judge went out on a limb and wrote that for me. Oh, so you applied to Obama's clemency. Yeah, and my judge wrote a letter and said, I've never, ever done this. Republican appointee, never done this ever,

but I'm doing it for this guy because I think he deserves to get out. And eventually, you know, my story, obviously I'm here, he grants my compassionate release. The same judge. Yeah, four or five months later, four or five months ago, I end up going into his chambers with my wife and my kids. He wants to talk to me in person. And I went in there and talked to the judge.

He said, I went out on a limb to help you. And he said, you know, you've been doing the right thing. Continue to do that. I'm happy for you. You know, I think you did turn your life around. And I have nothing but the utmost respect for that dude, man. What was that feeling like to get out halfway through a 40-year sentence? What's going through your mind?

You know, it's just when you walk out, I think you're just thankful. And you don't believe that it's happening, especially in my case. I'm walking out and then you're putting me back in. Like, you know, I was getting out and then I'm not. But that was temporary. That was temporary. But three weeks later, I ended up getting out through the second circuit. John Gleason is the dude that represented me.

He's the dude. I know that. He used to be a U.S. attorney, right? He prosecuted John Gotti. That's, oh, and he was also, was he a judge? And then he was a judge for 23 years. He was Jordan Belfort's judge. That's where I know that name from.

You could pass for his son. John Gleason's son? Yes. You ever see a picture of him? No. He was on Jeff Nadeu show too. Wow. That's interesting that John, that name.

That name is so familiar because I read the Wolf of Wall Street books and that's that name. He was in New York Second Circuit and everything like that. He wrote the second circuit handbook. So he's the one that helped you put your motion through? Well, I wrote my motion pro se and then he took over. Once it was filed and everything, he took over. Was he giving you hope or is he being cautious saying we don't know? Or is he saying you're going to get out from it? In the beginning, there was a lot of hope. But then, like I said, the government had the SIS guy come testify against me about, you know, gang stuff, selling drugs in prison. It's all, it was bullshit.

It's all a lie. And the judge actually scolds him in a 49 page decision and says that the government manufactured evidence in this case through the SIS department. They did everything they could to try to keep me in prison.

Did you go to a hearing too? I went to two hearings. And the government's there in full force? They usually never have hearings on compassionate releases. I had two hearings. And the government's just trying to throw ammunition at them.

Yeah. And then we get to a point where John Gleason tells me, we go on the back, he says, look, he said, we're not going to win this. They thought I was going to be the first person to win a compassionate release motion for Stack 924 Cs. It wasn't. It was Urkovich. But they thought it was going to be me. But my judge was, you know, taking his time, had all these hearings. They thought it was just going to happen. He says, you're not probably going to win. He said, we have to make a decision.

He said, I told the judge that you were going to testify and now I don't want to put you up there. He said, and if I put you up there, he's going to bang you on some, you know, he's going to to ask you some questions about, you know, gang affiliation, DWB affiliation, and he's going to go through your tattoos. He said, I don't want to put you up there. So we go into the courtroom and this is the crazy part. My judge, my lawyer, Leeson tells my judge, he says, he's not testifying today. We're not going to do it. And the prosecutor slams his paperwork down and says, well, that's not what they told us. You have to force him to, he's telling the judge, he has to force me. And the judge tells him on the record, I can't force him to testify.

He has a right not to testify, and that's what he did. Because he thought he was going to get me on the stand and be able to ask me questions. And he couldn't enter that in. And had he known that I wasn't getting on the stand, had he prepared, you know, appropriately, he would have just did his questioning through the SIS guy. Wow. They brought me down there, humiliated me, made me get butt ass naked, took pictures of all my tattoos. And, you know, he would ask the SIS about certain tattoos and all of that stuff.

And now that I, he thought, well, I don't have to ask him because Chad already said, he's going to get up here through his lawyer. And I didn't get up there. And he, dude, he went nuts. And the judge told him, look, you know, we act responsible and respectfully in this courtroom. He like, you know, he really got on him. And he was very disrespectful to Gleason. And, you know, Gleason's a former federal judge, former prosecutor.

Under Giuliani, prosecuted John Gotti. So when he was talking about him, the judge is like, hey, you know, we deal with people, you know, respectfully in this courtroom because he was just. nasty, nasty. How long until the judge gave you a decision in your favor after that? It was a long time, nine months. You were waiting nine months for a decision? Yeah. So do you think he was just like waiting to see if you got into any issues in prison? No, I think that he was writing a decision. It's probably one of the longest compassionate release decisions ever wrote. He was writing a decision that was sound for an appeal. And he pretty much told me that when I went to his chambers.

He wanted to make it bulletproof so you didn't get screwed. Yeah, well, he wanted to make it bulletproof. Yeah, and to cover his own back. He wanted to justify with the law and with his reasoning. You think he knew that he was going to let you out right then and there on that day? I asked him that. You did? He said, yeah, of course we were.

Wow. He said, I was letting you out before the hearings. That's awesome. And I didn't think I wasn't either did Gleason. I told him, I actually told me, maybe I shouldn't say this publicly. I'm going to say it. he told me in this chambers. I told him, I said, Gleason told me that I wasn't getting out that we weren't going to win.

He said, I'm going to have to give him a call. He said, he didn't know. He should know me better than that. And I said, no, he thought that I was hit. He was like I was letting you out before the hearings. That's awesome. Yeah. So you get out, what year is this, and how old are you?

I get out in 2020. I was 40, June 2020. I was 42 years old, man. Went in at 24. What was life like? What was some of the biggest changes? Like aside from technology, what's this new life like? It was hard for me to be around people. When I walked out, I had a hard time crossing the street.

I was embarrassed to try to use a credit card because I didn't know how to use one, how to tap or how to stick it in there and type in your number and hit enter. I didn't know any of that. My first day, I'm driving to my mother's house who still obviously lived in the hood. And there's some dude, like on the main road at 12, I get to my mom's around 12 o'clock, 1230, he's just on the sidewalk taking a piss. There's like, there's kids around here, bro. And I'm like, and now people got these like signs and there's tents.

And when I went to jail, people weren't really on the corner begging people. People weren't living in tents and under the bridge. So it was shocking. Also, like I said, I got out. I'm like, man, I don't have PTSD. I end up getting my own apartment out in the suburbs, you know, pretty safe townhouse. And dude, I had a hard time sleep. and I slept with a knife for probably 15, 16 months.

I used to put my dresser in front of my door when I went to sleep at night, kept all the lights on in the hallway in the bathroom. I would actually move the dresser, open my door, and look around and say, all right, and go to the bathroom, but I'm like peeing on the side, like, from the toilet. I'd piss on the, so I could see the door. That's crazy. I really had some issues, man. Did you see a therapist at all?

I did end up seeing a therapist. Did that help? A little bit, but I think time helped. I think time helped. But, you know, being locked in a cage, man, it does affect you. You think that it don't until you get out. Even the physical, like, intimacy part, like I talked to guys in there, like, they don't want to be touched.

They want to sleep a certain way. And it can scar you for years and years. So to do that much time and then come out. And unexpectedly, it's not even like you could prepare yourself because you didn't know. It was just, it just happened so quickly. Reality hits you hard, right? What did you do to get into work when you got out? So when I got out, I didn't work.

My probation officer said, hey, you got to get a job. And I told him I am the job. He's like, you got to get a job, man. And he said, I'm going to shit. If you're working at McDonald's, you got to get a job. I said, give me 30 days. I'm going to show you what I could do. And I started a paralegal in prison consultant firm immediately, freedom fighters.

You knew you were going to do that. Like whenever you got out, whether it was 20 years later, or then that was your calling? Yeah, I told him that. And I said, look, I got a book. I'm about to publish my book. The book sold out the first day on Amazon. You self-published.

I self-published, yeah. Narrated my own audio book. But the books, the same name as the channel, blood on the razor wire. And you know what? It's filled with violence because that's the life that we really lived. So I told him, this is my job. And he's like, yeah, all right.

Well, I can show you better than I can tell you, right? And I did it. I put the paralegal in prison consultant firm together. And honestly, dude, I've been home three years. I bought a house. own my vehicle. And, you know, I'm living my best life. I make good money.

I help people for free that don't have money, but it is a for-profit business. And I do exceptionally well. And while you're building this, you're building a YouTube channel. Like when you, what made you go into YouTube while you're building this paralegal business? So like I said earlier, I kind of wanted to do the stuff that Cedric Dean was doing, talk to kids. This dude hit me up.

And he's like, hey, man, you want to do an interview? I had a couple people hit me up. I didn't know nothing about this stuff. and I'm like, dude, do you make money doing this? And he's like, yeah. And I'm like, man, I'm like, want to try this. And he did help me. This cat, this cat I'm talking about, help me, told me what to buy, what camera.

He hooked me up. He told me what to do. And I did what he did. I said, man, if I'm teaching classes in prison, I can teach this. You know, I mean, I can do this. It's not a problem. I can do it. I got 18 years worth the stories.

And really, I just started doing a lot of interviews, talked a little bit about a few, you know, few of my prison experiences. I didn't really, I haven't even gotten into all the prison experiences yet. I've just been doing a lot of interviews and, you know, stories, some true crime stuff, narrating my book on the, on the channel. But really, I designed a channel. I said, man, you can make money and help people. Nothing wrong with making a dollar if you're making a difference, right?

And you got in at a good time, like, during COVID when people were watching? I got in, like, probably, you know, I got in during it first started, right when it was kind of like, we're starting to be able to go out. I think if I would have got in then, it probably would have been a different story for me. Yeah. Now, how did you come up with the name Blood on the Razor Wire? Well, I read this book, right, about the Attica riots. from New York and it was blood in the water. And I'm like, man, blood on the razor wire. Why shouldn't it be that?

So that was kind of one of the reasons I named it that. And you wrote the book in prison? Wrote the book in prison. And you just came out and retyped it or how did you do that? So I ended up typewriter in prison. Well, I had a buddy that typed it in prison. Then you get out here and you're like, dude, we don't accept type manuscripts. That ain't going to work.

So I ended up hiring an editor. And he typed the whole book up and put all that stuff together and put it on Amazon. And he misspelled some stuff on the first run. So it was stuck on there. He spelled violent wrong. I'm like, damn, this is a dude edited in our book. And then we had to re-put it up there, but it still stayed up there with the misspelling on the violent. And the book took off, dude.

But I'm, you know, not anymore. I could be. I just don't have time. But, you know, I was a staff writer for Prisoners Legal News, Criminal Legal News. You ever read those in there? I read a couple. They would, when you log on to True Links or whatever and they have like, I'd, something to read, something to do when you're bored. So I'd read all those.

I'm talking about the magazines, the paper magazines. No, I never read the paper. I just logged on to the TV. So I'm a staff writer. for prisoner's legal news or criminal legal news. People knew my name, dude. I wrote the first article about compassionate release as well as the motion. And it was in the prisoners legal news. And once I got out, people like, hey, man, we want that dude to help us. But I had one numerous cases in prison, man. So I kind of had a, you know, good name. I did jinx de Juvie. He was on that Runs house.

Russell Simmons adopted son. The rapper little baby, his real dad, not the dude that died. His real father's name's Rodney Love. Did his case, got his life sentence knocked down. I mean, I've won four or five life sentences. I've helped those. over 100 men and women get out of prison, bro. Do you think it's easier for you to work as a paralegal and work with these individuals because you've been through it and it gives you a better sense to fight because you were in that position where you had to fight and you know what that feeling was like. Because like to put in a perspective, like I know some lawyers or like going through my whole

process, they're not going to fight as hard as you're going to fight because you know like you're fighting for your life whereas they're not necessarily fighting for theirs. You know, I told dudes before I left, man, I'm going to be the voice of the voice. And I meant that. I was really coming out here to do some things. I actually do care about people, man. It does bother me when, you know, I'm in prison with an 18-year-old kid that's got 30 years and he don't know how to read and write. Can't even read his own letter from his family members. And the government just gave you 40 years for selling drugs. That bothers me, man. I did a case for Billy D. Williams. Eventually, he gets out from Obama. He cops, he gets, you know, bullshit three or four dime bags, got a prior conviction. gets caught with an eight ball two years later.

Now they ate 51 them and give them a life sentence out of 50 grams or more a crack. And he didn't deserve that, man. You gave him life. He copped out. What lawyer is going to cop you out to life? The lawyer knows that if you cop out, you get life. If you go to trial, you still have some type of hope, right?

Yeah. And then you can appeal and do something, but he copped him out, knowing that he had a mandatory minimum of life at 24 years old. So when you do stuff like that, that bothers me. I do work with lawyers all over the country. many lawyers. And, dude, it's sad that what some, you know, I hate to say it, but it's just the truth.

You've been through it. I can't imagine what you paid. You had a white collar crime. Lawyers, man, a lot of these lawyers don't give a shit. They take your money in. And you know what? On to the next case. I actually care, man.

Or do I have clients that piss me off? A lot of times. But I always answer the phone, dude. And you know, like I know. There's cell phones in there. I'm the dude that answers your call at 1030 at night. You know what I mean? I answer your call.

call. And I got a client right now that calls me every day. I just got one more question. And I'm like, dude, you and your wife call me every day. You know, my goal is to get you out of jail. You have to let things take their course. So I do care, man, because it's not right, man. It's not right to take a 18-year-old kid and throw him away. And he can't read and write or, you know, I got a case where this kid from Tennessee goes on a shooting spree and his parents kind of harbor him. And his mother's 60-something. years old and they give her 20 years for harboring her son. Same thing with the father. He calls me and says, look, dude, we don't have no money. And I did their case for free because it's wrong. You know, the parents, they weren't, they didn't kill anybody. They let the kid come there and gave them some

money because it's their kid. And you give them 20, these are law abiding citizens that you just gave 20 years to. And people are like, no, they don't do that. They do do that. They do do that. What do you say to like the haters or the people in the comments that are like, oh, they're glorifying prison by telling stories of violence, like from your experience. So like I said, I got a YouTube channel, right? Blood on the razor wire TV. Blood on the what blood. But the mission is to save kids from life and imprisonment and premature death through our stories and experiences. This ain't scared straight. People that get in the comments and say you glorify, I don't glorify prison. But sometimes you've got to give them the

violence, Ian. In order to give them the message, they're tuned into the violence. That's the story that they want to hear. And then they can get the message too. But that's the reality of prison. Is federal prison a dangerous place? I've been in New York State prison. Federal prison is more dangerous than New York State prison hands down. It's not camp, good day special times. People aren't out there playing tennis and eating steak. The food's absolutely disgusting. Things have changed. If you're in a penitentiary, violence is at an astronomical high. Just Google what happened in Beaumont. Google what's happening in Polack. I think they just had a murder the other day in McCrary. Like Google that stuff because this is the reality. So we're not

glorify in prison. We're giving people what it is. I have dudes man, gang members, bro, that write me on emails. Prosecutors. I interviewed a former federal judge that went to the White House with Kim Gardashian. You know, people email and say, hey, man, I like what you're doing. Hey, bro, you know what? When I watch your show, it makes me realize I don't want to go back to prison. Why? Because I've seen too many people stabbed in there, bro. I don't want to live like that no more. I've been stabbed in prison. You know, people, you know, write me and tell me that. I've been stabbed in prison. So it's not, um, it's not. It's not. It's

not to glorify prison. I mean, see the cup half full, not half empty. You know what I mean? Do you think there are some creators, though, that just push the violent aspect and not the message aspect? Of course, because that's what people want. And do you align yourself with it?

Like, do you pick and choose, like, who you collaborate with because you want to make sure your message is in sync with that? Well, I mean, if there's dudes out there that are, like, you know, doing the wrong thing or something, yeah, I'm probably not going to get involved in that. You know what I mean? I don't, and, you know, let me tell you this,

right? because there's a lot of people in the prison genre, right? And I kind of mine as prison, but also a little true crime in there. You know, you see dudes, you know, doing sports. They're not fighting with each other, bro. People are talking about cryptocurrency. You've got five YouTube channels. They're not, like, beefing with the other cryptocurrency guy.

So why are the prison guys doing that? It just makes, you know, when you do that, it just makes you look like, I don't know, maybe, you know, people are going to be like, well, they do belong in there. Yeah, there's a lot of drama in our genre. Like, I have people coming at me that are other creators. and I'm like, I don't start beef with anyone. Like, I like to work with anyone if I'm not answering some directly just because I'm genuinely busy.

Like, I'm trying to build this on my own. But, like, I'm very responsive. Like, there's no one like I wouldn't like say, fuck you. I'm not having you on the show to. Like, I want to work with everyone and just grow. Like, we're a community. And I don't think a lot of people realize that. Yeah.

I mean, there's enough room for everybody, right? Everybody's trying to get to the top, right? Yeah. Some, you know, YouTube makes millionaire some. times. Sometimes it don't. You know, you make a little bit of money or whatever, but. And we're all doing different things in our own ways. Like you have different stories in mind. We have different perspectives. Like I could never go on my show and talk about a USP because I've never been in a USP. Like I have a different unique perspective just like you do. So it's interesting

in that. Now, if you could go sit in a room with your 20, 21 year old self, what would you say to that person? The same thing I tell people all the time. Know what you're worth? What are you worth? I've said this numerous times and I don't want it to be redundant but it is what it is. You know, I used to teach classes in prison I'd ask dudes, man, what are you worth? You hear the craziest, man, I'm worth

100,000. Man, I'm worth the million. And when people say that, you just think about man, how uneducated. You know, how uneducated. And I wouldn't say nothing to them about bad about them, but I'd say, well, I'm going to tell you what I was worth. When I was standing in front of the corner store with a 9mm in my waist and, you know,

$1,000 worth the dime bags of cocaine, I was worth $1,000. Took a chance of being killed, took a chance of being robbed, took a chance of going to prison. But today I'm priceless, man. Look in the mirror. Look in the mirror and just ask yourself what you're worth. And if I would have been able to do that back then and understand that concept, I would have never been in prison. But I made you the person you are today.

Yeah, it made me the person I am today. But, you know, I gave up 18 years of my life to be the person I am today. Would you take it back if you could if you had the opportunity to? Yeah, I would. You know why? because I hurt so many people, man. I would take it back. I'd rather be broke and poor on the street

than to have to put my mother what I put her through, my community. You know, I destroyed that community, dude. I was part of this, you know, I know what it's like not to get Christmas presents, you know, I know, and to see, you know, we contributed to that where parents would sell their Christmas presents

that they were going to give their kids before Christmas. A little kid wakes up and don't have a Christmas. We had this chick named Peanut. My boys over there, he could tell you after the show. They came and sold us their, what was it, Sega Genesis back then. Sold the dudes that were in my house. And they bought it. Man, I'm like, nah, bro. I'm taking that back. I took that shit back to her son. And I kind of like was, even though I was a drug dealer back then, I was kind of like a little mentor to this little kid. I don't know what happened

to him. Eventually I go to prison. But, you know, we contributed to that to little kids waking up without Christmas presents. Mother selling their food stamps, little kids not being able to eat. I was part of that, man. Do you live with that regret or do you use that as your motivator to keep going? I think it's a motivator to do what's right, but there's always the regret, always. Yeah. Well, Chad, thank you for coming on the show today. Where could people find you at? Well, you know, like I said, that blood on the razor wire TV, come check us out. You might like what we do. Chad Marks 101 on Instagram have Freedom Fighters, Paralegal and Prison Consultant firm, FreedomfightersPC.com. And, you know, like I said, that YouTube channel, it is important to me. It's therapy.

I like doing it. I enjoy doing it. We got about 133,000 subscribers. And growing. And growing. You might like what we do. So, you know, come by and check us out. And again, thank you for having me. And I see you got some big names on here, you know. So. Well, now we got the Chad marks on the show. I'm kind of like the middle guy. You know, come on. You got to give yourself more credit, man. You're blowing up. You, J. Williams, you know, JD. All those guys, you know, they're getting big. It won't be long until you're out of a million. And the thing is, like, you guys just build like these communities. A lot of people tag you on my page, like to say, get this person on. I think the top three, I would say are J.D., you, and Jay Williams. And I've talked to Jay, and we're having him on the show. And he's just like, he's great.

He reminds me of you in a lot of ways, just like your personality and the humbleness and, like, the character. That dude's a good dude, man. He helped me with a couple things, man. And he's just a really good dude. Yeah, this has been great, man. Thank you so much for driving out here today. And I'll see you soon. Thank you.

All right. Thank you, buddy.