Locked In with Ian Bick - How My $1M Oxycontin Drug Empire Crumbled & Sent Me to Federal Prison | Joe Lawler

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Starting point is 00:01:14 Joe, welcome to Lockton, man. A fellow Boston resident. The crowd loves the Boston. I love the Boston accents. 0-3-8. Because of the accent. That thing is killer. Yeah, yeah, we don't recognize it.

Starting point is 00:01:26 But yeah, I guess people, you know, like it or hate it. love it, I hate it, you know. Yeah. Now, you were actually in that Ben Affleck movie, The Town? Yes, yes. I had come home from a federal prison. I went away in 2000. And when I came home, 2010, when they were filming.

Starting point is 00:01:45 And I came home the end of 2009, 111 months I ended up doing in total. So on the 10 years, you do 85% of the time, as you know, in federal prison. And, you know, lost a little good time, which isn't, you know, with that much time. I don't care who you are. You know, it's probably going to happen. So I lost some good time there. I did 111 months altogether. And when I came home, it kind of fell in my lap.

Starting point is 00:02:09 It didn't kind of. It definitely fell in my lap, you know. It was just one of those things. And, yeah, it was a great experience, you know. And it's something that, you know, normally like, you know, there's certain people maybe, you know, that I'll, you know, sit in hand talking or whatever, you're inquisitive. You're, you know, you're curious about it.

Starting point is 00:02:26 You're asking. And, you know, certainly I like to share the story because it was, was it was a great experience but uh you know something that you kind of keep close to the vests because you know where i'm from you know it's very uh territorial very cliquey so it's like you get a especially being in the in the prison system you know where uh with our master manipulators are you know people you know to this day like still i like to sit against the wall and just take everything in you know so kind of feel the energy and you know i feel like with with that you know there's a lot of haters out there a lot of people that misery loves company whether they realize they're doing it or not

Starting point is 00:03:00 And, you know, there's very, it's hard to find genuine, you know, genuine people, or people that actually, you know, if they are asking you, they're either pumping you for information, you know, or they're, you know, it's not, it's not coming from a good place, you know. So with that being said, yeah, it was, it was an awesome experience, you know. It was definitely something that, you know, fell in my lap and it was, it was, it was really good. You know, I got to meet some good people, you know, net, work or whatever a little bit. That wasn't really the first time I was able to do that outside of like the neighborhood or whatnot, you know, coming home. But, you know, after all that time or whatnot,

Starting point is 00:03:40 you know, I'm sure you, you know, you can relate to this. It's like there's no, and I wouldn't recommend like, you know, anyone, you know, doing any research on it, but like the euphoria of coming home and like, you know, there's no high. I mean, there's, it's the best feeling of the world, you know, freedom. And, you know, to be able to meet those, you know, meet good people. And it was just nice. It was good. It was different and you know, it was good to do, you know, something maybe in the future, you know. It's something I never really

Starting point is 00:04:10 followed up with. But like you said, I know that they love, you know, something about, you know, even with Hollywood, they love the Boston thing. They love all that, you know, so. And there's that curious about people that went to prison and having like the real life thing too. Yeah, absolutely. That's so cool that they had you a part of that because that kind of is similar to your

Starting point is 00:04:26 story. Right, absolutely. And Ben Affleck, you know, that the one thing that they had uh you know he wanted it to be authentic you know and uh and that's why i think that you know he kind of took a liking to me and when i met him it kind of we kind of hit it off you know so he was looking for what he was looking for you know he was doing his thing and and he kind of just picked my brain and he did that with you know a handful of people you know he was going to see my buddy that was upstate that was uh you know kind of he that was the person that he you know kind of that was the character you know it was loosely based you know um so

Starting point is 00:05:00 So, you know, Hollywood does his thing. You know, I think of, you know, the movie Heat, you know, back in the day, that's a, you know, classic movie with, you know, all the stars. And I think Jeremy Renner did, like, Val Kilmer in that, you know, on a lower level, you know, without the star power. But that kind of put him on the map, you know, he was already heading there. But with Affleck putting him there, I mean, he kind of stole the show, you know, Jeremy Renner.

Starting point is 00:05:21 And just like Val Kilmer and Heat, you know, I thought he was, he got to narrow you up and then Val Kilmer was just that he was the man, you know. But as far as a shootouts going, stuff like that, that's when Hollywood gets a little crazy, you know, because those guys tried it in Cali, I think, years ago, you know, with a bulletproof vest and shit, and that didn't turn out well for them. Yeah, I just watched Denna Thieves 2,

Starting point is 00:05:42 and I saw Denna Thieves 1 years ago, and I just rewatch it, and we were just talking about how, you know, that doesn't really happen anymore, like the armored car robberies and the bulletproof vests and the tactical things. Oh, absolutely. Like, it's not like what it used to be.

Starting point is 00:05:56 Well, and I think that, you know, it's funny because I don't know if it's, you know, what do they say? You can take, like, you know, the neighborhood. Oh, you can take the person out of the neighborhood, but not the neighborhood out of the person. And to this day, you know, it's like I still got to, you know, I got to catch myself and like, you know, whether it be financial, you know, insecurity, which, you know, everyone,

Starting point is 00:06:14 everyone deals with from time to time. And, you know, it's like to know that in the past, like when I was younger and like, you know, kind of when there was no responsibilities, there was no, in the consequences hadn't hit yet, you know, I hadn't. suffering enough or I haven't you know I hadn't really faced those consequences and then realize like wait a minute like what am I doing here you know this life's too short and it's way too

Starting point is 00:06:36 good out here you know but um it's a thing to myself like I know that it's it's doable but that's like you know it's like the angel and the devil it's still it's still there and it's like you know listen all you're going to do and you know like if I was going to do anything it'd be like all that thinking is is is just crazy talk you know because it's like that's exhausting and of itself, you know, for me to like waste time and energy thinking like that. But, you know, it still happens, you know, it's from time to time. I try to make it an idle thought at this point. Now, did you grow up in Boston?

Starting point is 00:07:09 I did. So I grew up in a neighborhood called Charlestown. And, you know, anyone that is familiar, if you're not, it's like you think of New York with the boroughs. That's the best way I can describe it, you know. So, you know, Charlestown, it's like, it's a neighborhood. neighborhood of Boston. So when you write a letter from, you know, when I was in Pennsylvania, you'd write Charlestown Mass, right? And, and, but it's, it's, it's so small. It's just, it's, it's, it's too, too small to be its own city, you know, so it's made up of a bunch of

Starting point is 00:07:40 neighborhoods. And, in, in this neighborhood in particular was, one of the, you know, white Irish Catholic neighborhoods, you know, sort of like, I guess, like a Hell's Kitchen in New York or something. I'm sure you read the Westies when you were away, you know, that was a, that was a classic. And, you know, South Boston was also just a bigger version of Charlestown. And it was one square mile of, it's just, it's a different place. You know, it's something that growing up, you know, I, my childhood, I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for the world.

Starting point is 00:08:12 But it certainly was a lot of, a lot of misinformation, a lot of, you know, and, you know, there was, it's something to be said about even, you know, those good morals, those good values. those, you know, the principles that were instilled, you know, good people, you know, loyal, all those things. So all those things, it's like, I feel like we get the good and the bad, you know, from not only it starts in the home and then like even on the street, you know, there's something to be said, you know, my friend, being around like my peers are like, you know, going down that corner

Starting point is 00:08:44 at 15 years older so and finally, you know, and whatever went on at the house or whatever I was taught in the house, like that didn't matter, you know, anymore. It was just like, all right, what do I got to do here, you know? you know, to earn my stripes ought to fit in and be accepted. And, you know, at that time, it's like, you know, no one was, it was almost like, all right, who can out do the other person or like, you know, there was no one to elaborate or no one to, you know, the fear was real, the acceptance was real, the judgment, you know, like I say about Clicky and stuff.

Starting point is 00:09:18 And, you know, I think I was talking about it recently and I say, you know, as far as I'm concern, you know, and I think that maybe it's a mentality that can help us and hurt us. It can be like a blessing and a curse. But, you know, I feel like we've suffered enough. I feel like that, you know, if you've been through, it has to be enough, I think, for the individual, for the person to say like, all right, well, I've, you know, there's no more, it's not about, like, what you think or what this tells me, you know, when I'm not thinking right of whatever.

Starting point is 00:09:50 It's about, like, what I know inside and, like, you know, kind of, kind of just, like, like, you know, being the best version of yourself, or at least trying to, you know, to excel or to succeed or just to be a decent human being, and, you know, on a daily basis and to grow, you know, I know in prison, that's certainly wasn't the story. You know, when I hear a guy say that, I cringe, you know, I grew up in prison or something. It's like, please don't say that. You know, it's like, come on, man, you know, it's a secondhand embarrassment. So, yeah, it stunts you, you know, that's why when I went away at 21, I came home at 30, you know, at best, like, I was still like a teenager, you know, with my mentality and stuff.

Starting point is 00:10:26 And, you know, I certainly, when I was away, I would, I'd love to sit here and tell you that I was reading, you know, these books to educate myself and all of that. But, you know, I was just trying to get through the time like any other person, you know, playing handball and that stuff. And the scary part is that, you know, I know to myself, you know, I think to myself, like I can get comfortable in those situations. I can get comfortable in an environment like that where there's no priorities, there's no responsibilities.

Starting point is 00:10:53 because like I say, like, you know, this saying is I'm big with the sayings with the mantras and stuff. And it's like, you know, I'm not afraid to die. I'm afraid to live, you know. And, you know, doing things like this is like it may be foreign, but at the same time, like, I know, I feel, you know, today I try to just embrace like the good, the positive vibes and stuff like that, you know, meet new people and kind of and step outside the box because where I'm from, like I said, it's very isolated and you can get stuck in a neighborhood. like that, you know, but a lot of pride, a lot of false pride, you know, sometimes too, you know, but yeah, just trying to, just trying to do the, do the next right thing, you know, and be a better, be a better person, you know, for the, for the people that care about me or need me, I like, and that's the, I think to myself, I'm like, you know, for someone to need me,

Starting point is 00:11:43 it's like, as crazy as it may sound to me, it's, it's a reality. So it's like, you know, the memo that I never got, I never really paid attention. to was like never picked up on and that I've realized over the you know over the years or you know going through the shit I have is that in order to be the loyal person the loving person in order to be a good dad and all it to be a good husband you know a good son a good brother a good friend I need to if I really want to you know if I you know if I pride myself on those things and those things mean something to me I wish they do and I try to you know I've always tried to carry myself in that way but um the truth is I have to take care of myself I

Starting point is 00:12:23 I have to learn how to be okay with me in order to be able to give that to you to, you know, for the people that want and need it. And then in turn, I can, you know, we can reciprocate that, you know, so. What do your parents do for work? So my mom, my father was a firefighter, Boston firefighter. And, you know, he's, it's fun, you know, the generations, they've been married over 50 years, you know. I don't know how they've done it, you know, honestly. There's something to be said about that generation, you know.

Starting point is 00:12:53 you know, it's, even the commitment there, it's like no matter what, you know, and things have changed, certainly, with the relationship aspect of, you know, today, nowadays, you know, it's, it's, you see a high divorce rate, you know, a lot of, a lot of different things. But anyway, they've been married over 50 years. My father was a Boston firefighter, and my mother held down the fort at home, you know, she worked part-time. And, you know, like I say, you know, you've heard the term knock-around people, right? you know, there were, there was no criminal element and stuff,

Starting point is 00:13:24 although, like, there was, um, even, you know, my family, my extended family, I have a big, come from a big hockey family. Um, my mom's maiden name is Kachuk. Um, and so my cousin Keith played for a long time. Now his two sons play, Matthew and Brady. Um, you know, if they're on your team, you'd love them, you know, like a Marshawn, but if not, then, you know, but that's, they're, um, you know, so I always, the hockey was a big thing in my family.

Starting point is 00:13:49 That's what I aspire to be. You know, they say, like, I went from sports to courts. My buddy says that. And, yeah, my mom held down the fort at home. My father was working. He provided, you know, in the movie, like, a Bronx deal, you know, the working, man's a sucker. One of those deals. It's funny because, like, as silly as it is, and we can sit here and make light of it.

Starting point is 00:14:10 But, like, the fact of the matter is, like, there's people that think like that. I did think like that at one point, you know. And I never really, I never gave my father the proper, you know, like, the respect all, like, He even looked up to, like, that's an honorable thing. He fought in Vietnam, you know. And, you know, he came home. He provided, he raised three kids, you know, and I think we turned out all right. You know, I got two older sisters.

Starting point is 00:14:32 I, you know, they're good kids. They, they, and believe me, in a neighborhood like that, like, if there was something to be said, I've been around for 46 years, it would be said, you know, whether malicious or not. And, you know, so they've kind of set the, you know, I was the golden shot. That was the boy. I was the baby and I got treated as such and I probably ate it up. I'm sure I did, you know. And but at the same time, the consequences, I had to find those on my own, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:01 because I was kind of, I kind of ran amok, you know, and I think after when it got to me, you know, once I, you know, my two older sisters, once it got to me and my parents were just like, whatever, you know. So they tried their best. And the one thing I say is that they showed me to this day, like I say, we get the good in the bad and um you know sometimes we tend to as human beings you know fall into that victim mentality and and think of just the bad and like you know what was me and it's like um you know i try to check myself and like even even if i have to say it out loud and get vulnerable and like say it in

Starting point is 00:15:34 front of you know and just showing it out where it's like the yeah the bad but you can't forget there's a flip side to that you know there's good also so in that way i try to look at the perspective you know it's like the glass half full type deal you know and um that's something i can control a lot of things I can't but you know the acceptance thing has been has been big with me over the years and even you know even doing time like you know it's like we talked about the diesel therapy right and um you know talk about PTSD it's like all right so if you're not a sociopath right um it'd be nice to be able to check out and not and not live in reality and not fail right um but at the end of the day like you know and as I sit across from you like where I'm a human

Starting point is 00:16:16 being you're a human being I'm gonna fail every second of it and I'm sure that you did too and that's the reality of it um when they'll sell those crack you know i'm not i can't just disassociate you know certainly no without like a drink or a drug in my system you know yeah it's kind of surreal like i think i sit back sometimes because i always think about like how i got here and i got here because i went to prison and when you think about that it's like wow i was actually in prison yeah for three years i know why settle for ordinary when you can have extraordinary Lucy breakers are the next level of nicotine, 100% pure, tobacco-free, and packed with an extra surprise inside.

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Starting point is 00:17:54 And it's just like, I don't know, it's just surreal just to think about it, you know. It is. And it's cool. I think that it's something that, you know, I don't glorify it. I sit here and I'll tell you like, you know, I'll be the last person, you know, I do it. And if I hear someone kind of, I love a good war story. I love a good story to shoot the shit. you know and like to laugh and like and talk about different things and you know just wild

Starting point is 00:18:20 stories or whatnot but as far as glorifying like nonsense and like shit like that it's like there's nothing cool about it that's not a flex you know what I mean it's like that's one thing I've learned and even being in the feds and I am grateful that I was that I went there rather than upstate because as you know like and I'm sure you've you can attest like the clientele is far different you know something to be said I mean you get for what it's worth, you know, like you'd have the Unabom or you'd have like these high profile, these people that are like, even the, even the, the ones that are like terrible people, right, they're still like, you know, there's something, they're, they're on a different level as far as

Starting point is 00:19:01 like their intelligence and stuff or, you know, maybe what they were trying to do or whatever they believed in and stuff as opposed to, you know, just your everyday run of the mill, you know, doing petty crime and stuff like that. So, um, I bet. I met some, you know, a lot of good people. I met some, you know, and they just, they taught you, the one thing I learned there, and, you know, it certainly came from the home, but they kind of molded me. It kind of helped me out too. I had two older guys, two OGs from Boston that kind of had the keys to the yard there.

Starting point is 00:19:34 And they just, you know, they took me out of their wing, you know, thank God. And, you know, like I say all the time for what it's worth. And, you know, Boston has a great reputation, you know, Massachusetts. it's in general. You're from New England and, you know, you know what a rat or a rapist or a pedophile, then you'll be all right no matter where you go, you know what I mean? So the diesel therapy, like you talked about, that was, I think to myself, when I look back in those 111 months, like, you know, before I go out to the feds, you know, went to the MDC,

Starting point is 00:20:08 Brooklyn where they got, you know, they got ditty now and shit like that, right? I laugh and I'm like, and then flew. Cornia. Conair. I was on Conair. That was an experience, bro. Right? Oh my God.

Starting point is 00:20:21 Crazy. I remember. Yeah. That was wild. And it's, that's a surreal part when I think about it because like that shit happened and I don't know if I was numb to it or whatever. I was just like a, I was a kid and I kind of, I wasn't like overwhelmed with like the, wow, like, what is this?

Starting point is 00:20:41 Because like I was on a mission to like get exactly there. And I got what I asked for when I look back in hindsight, you know, because I just didn't give a fuck. And, you know, and I look, and thank God, you know, like, I feel like I was, you know, people talk about being saved and stuff. And, you know, and I check my ego with that at the door because it's like when I went away in 2000, I was the first one to go away for the OxyContin. And, you know, like I say, that's not a flex. It's a fact. It's just part of my story. And like when I did, I believe, you know, I heard horror stories from that point on.

Starting point is 00:21:18 And I don't, you know, no one knew what they were really getting themselves into. And it was, I came home to, I could never imagine what I was going to come home to. Even with all the horror stories, the worst part I was hearing about, like, you know, like I said, I get to all the sisters. So hearing about, like, the girls I grew up with, I got to, you know, raised to be like a gentleman. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I can be a, you know, a caveman like any other guy. but I mean, you know, just to treat women with respect and like, so I got a soft spot with that. And I know that there was a lot of, you know, shit that I just, there's a lot of deviants.

Starting point is 00:21:50 There's a lot of people out there. And then that's one thing. It's to have to live in that environment with them, with those types of people. It's just sickening. You know, it's disgusting. And going away when I did in 2000, you know, I think it masked some things, some underlying issues like alcoholism and, you know, addictive personality or whatnot because anything you know like I used you know like an adrenaline junkie you know it's like um like point break you know that was a big movie you know growing up in my

Starting point is 00:22:22 neighborhood you know um you'd watch point break you'd watch you watch you watch heat you know what I mean all those things that like a small neighborhood and a tight community and then with that you know the criminal element it was like um you went out and reenacted that and like as if life was a movie you know um and in it's in reality wasn't a thing until you know and then when you get there and have to sit with yourself the worst part of the the bid when i look back it was the beginning in the end right and it's a different type of failing the beginning is like maybe fear of the unknown i'm just like you know looking ahead but once you get into a routine you know and you have that little you know that that that bit of structure which i never had out here and like um that's that's huge the foundation

Starting point is 00:23:03 just to you know try to plant my feet and like where i'm at and like where i'm at and and just like be content with, you know, where I'm trying to go. I was always, like, I remember they cloned that sheep dolly back in the day when that happened. I'm from the, you know, grew up in the late 90s. And that was me. I wanted to be everywhere at once. And I felt like I was missing out on something. And in turn, what ended up happening is I missed out on, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:28 quite a bit more just because, you know, that was my, I couldn't sit still. You know what I mean? I wanted to be everywhere at once. and like I thought I was that important and like, you know, they show me exactly how important I was here, you know. Did you guys struggle financially growing up? Yeah, so I say this, you know, growing up in my neighborhood, it was the, I didn't learn this to later on, but like, you know,

Starting point is 00:23:51 there's big comparisons, right? It's almost like, all right, well, and it's like maybe it makes people feel better as far as like, you know, feeling better about their own situation or, you know, or we can do it on the, on the, you know, on the flip side, you know, feeling worse or whatnot, however you want to play it. But when I looked in comparison to like my friends, I had two parents. Most of my friends had, you know, came from like single family. Most of just had a mom or whatever that would work or whatnot.

Starting point is 00:24:20 There was a lot of, you know, there was no guidance. There was, you know, whether their dads were murdered, whether their dads, you know, were in prison. There was, you know, that was a big part of it. And it's weird because I think of like that, you know, you know, when I talk about the misinformation and like just growing up in, in that tight-knit neighborhood, which had all of the, you know, so many perks and like it was, such a, you know, beautiful, like, you know, when I think back, it was like, it was excellent. It was awesome.

Starting point is 00:24:49 Like, I couldn't have asked for a better child, though, but at the same time, it was chaotic. It was wild. It was dysfunctional. It was, and, you know, we get addicted to that, right? It's like, you know, so now to be able to sit still all, like, what's normal? Like, oh, what's, like, peace? Like, what is that? Like I need, you know, I need more and I need more of excitement.

Starting point is 00:25:07 I need more like, you know, chaotic things going on. And so with that being said, like I looked around and, and I thought I was doing all right. You know, I thought I was doing, I certainly was doing better than most of my friends. You know, I had the two parents. I even think of, you know, you talk about shame and guilt and like these things that we don't identify as kids or whatnot, you know, because who wants to fill those types of way. and that I was almost ashamed that I had to, I felt I was embarrassed. I didn't want to show up any of my friends, right?

Starting point is 00:25:42 I didn't, you know, that my parents had moved in, you know, from the projects to the house and development to a house, right? And most of my friends are in the projects or that house in development. And I couldn't wait to like, you know, I wanted to be, you know, these were my friends. You know what I mean? I wanted to let them know, I'm with you. You know, this wasn't spoken out loud, but like from through action. like that's like you know basically what was being said and if they could have spoke i'm sure they

Starting point is 00:26:09 would have said like bro i wish i i wish i i wasn't a house you know i wish i had like some type of normalcy i wish i had you know two parents that um you know that that that are doing their best to provide for you and stuff um so you know that's that's you know that's basically how i grew up you know and you said about like this dysfunction or you know poverty stricken or whatnot um i never needed for anything i'm sure i want to but, you know, my mother should thank God for her, you know. I say, like, if it wasn't for her, we'd be in trouble, but she's good. She's very, you know, she's good with their money, you know, she's the brains of the operation, you know.

Starting point is 00:26:47 But, but in the good and the bad, yeah, we called her, called her Mummy Dearest growing up, if anyone remembers that movie, and she ate it up, you know, she loved that title. So she ran with the gold, you know, with the iron fist, like the Gestapo. She's at, you know, we're Russian and Irish. which is a crazy mix. So there was a lot of yelling, a lot of, you know, just strict as far as like, you were going to fall in line based on like, you know, I laugh. We laugh about it now because, like I said, it came.

Starting point is 00:27:22 It wasn't malicious. It wasn't as spiteful. But, you know, even at the holidays, you know, we'll say like, Mom, I would have you hit me like, you know, like all those times you snap the belt, you know what I mean? And like I still hear that shit in my head. It's like, listen, if you're going to hit me, you know what I mean? Don't like, don't pretend you're going to do something if you're not going to do it.

Starting point is 00:27:41 You know what I mean? That's just like mental. I'd rather the physical pain, you know, or the, you know, at least I can feel that as opposed to like, no when it's coming because now you're like, you grow up and you're like, you know, and you're always on your toes. You're always like, you can't really get comfortable. But at the same time, I think it, you know, provides like, you know, a dick skin. Like, you know, and, you know, you kind of get through like some, some, some, some, some,

Starting point is 00:28:06 things that maybe a lot of people couldn't, you know, that, that, and maybe their stuff looks good, better, good on the outside, but, you know, there's no one, it doesn't discriminate, you know, and I, I think to the saying, like, what goes on in this house stays in this house. And, you know, I have this thing where I'm like, that was, that's a great saying. And, um, but to hear that as a kid, like, that was the, that was like period. It's like, wait, no, there's a lot more that goes on to that. Like, you know, maybe elaborate on it. Maybe let me know, like, what does that mean? Because now, when you told me that, I didn't need to get down in the corner to learn how to keep my mouth shut out. I learned that in the sandbars, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:28:41 Like, you don't tattle on people. You don't, you know what I mean? My mother would give me a back on it, you know? And so that stuff there is like, you know, I look back. I would try to do that with my kids now. Just elaborate a little bit with these old cliches, these old sayings that like, yeah, it comes from. It makes sense. But maybe the person needs to, you know, maybe you need to elaborate a little more and let them know, like, where you're coming from, you know,

Starting point is 00:29:04 so they can better understand it and maybe if they're going to receive it and take it and run with it, then they will, if not, that at least you tried, you know. Did you have a plan for the rest of your life as a kid? Like, did you have a career in mind? What do you want to do?

Starting point is 00:29:19 No, I didn't. And, you know, that's like, you know, I think to myself, I'm 46 years old, and that's something that, even you were asking that question, I kind of like, I, you know, tensed up a little bit where it's like, you know, I try not to regret,

Starting point is 00:29:36 but as like a human being, like, of course, there's things that I wish I had done different and stuff. But I try not to live in the past and like, you know, and, you know, wallowing pity or whatnot. That doesn't get you anywhere, that's for sure. But when I was a kid, I guess I had the fantasies, you know, they were probably, you know, I don't want to say like, you know, my expectations of my, you know,

Starting point is 00:29:57 I wanted to be like my cousin. I wanted to play hockey, you know, that was my goal. Like what kid doesn't want to be, you know, do something they love and get paid for it, right? It's not even about the money. It's like, you know, that's why hockey's like as far as, you know, it's like hands down. I saw the trasher shirt and stuff, you know, the most down to worth,

Starting point is 00:30:15 like the most like normal people and they just get it. And like those, they're like little kids out there, you know. They're out there still, they do for the love of the game, really. You know, it's really not about the money. But so I wanted to, like I talk about my dad, you know, he was a firefighter. Right? Who doesn't love a firefighter, right? You know, they save fucking kittens and trees, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:30:39 Even though I'm not a cat person, but yeah, the city cats, they used to, I think they used to, I have bad memories of them. The alley cats, I'd hear them in heat or I'd hear them fighting and stuff, you know, in the summertime. But with the row houses, you know, our backyards, every one was probably the size of this room. But, you know, I'd hear them out there. But, yeah, a firefighter, I never, I didn't aspire to. be to be those things you know um and i really it was about you know like i say once i went down that corner um i say my mother could have been mother teresa and my father could have been the pope you know growing up in like that irish catholic um household right where um what goes on this

Starting point is 00:31:22 house stays in this house and like you know the silent treatment and um you know if if we don't talk about it almost like it didn't happen i'll sweep it under the rug and just that shit gets heavier and heavier and push it down, push it down, right? And don't say, you know, don't be careful what you tell. You know what I mean? Don't tell them too much and just always being on guard and living like that. Yeah, I never, my mother could have been Mother Teresa. My father could have been the Pope. And once I went down the corner, in hindsight, I look back. I was going to be whatever I thought you'd accept me as, you know. It wasn't until I started saying those things out loud. And to me, like I'm passionate when I say it, like, I, I'm passionate. When I say it,

Starting point is 00:32:01 Like I feel like it's more so for myself to hear, right? Because like I can easily fall back into that, you know, that old, the old behaviors, the old mindset, which will lead to the old behaviors, you know, and getting comfortable and uncomfortable situations, right? And like, just like settling for less. And yeah, being down, going down that corner, like I say, I checked all the boxes that I thought that, you know,

Starting point is 00:32:28 it was like a resume, right? Like an application. Like, you know, where do I go to, Where do I sign? And like I signed, you know, I signed my life away. I basically, there was at that point, like, there was no identity being formed. There was no self-esteem being built, right? And I chose, you know, I based, you know, I ran on fear.

Starting point is 00:32:46 I ran on, and it wasn't, I wasn't alone. This was my whole community, right? Or anyone, any other kid that was doing that, right? We weren't individuals. We weren't our own person, right? We were, because we were too nervous to be too scared to be. Maybe we just didn't know how, right? and that's okay

Starting point is 00:33:02 but like no one was going to admit that when they were kids you know like we didn't even know how to articulate that or to express that and to communicate it with each other and we laugh because I don't know you know in a neighborhood like that especially in the city environment like you know

Starting point is 00:33:18 you weren't going down the corner and you know talking to your friends about your feelings all like you know let on your house you know let alone your feelings and or vice versa so the conversation were kind of very surface level and very, there was no meaning behind them, you know?

Starting point is 00:33:36 And with that, it was like everyone almost had to, you know, play a character that, you know, I'm sure they didn't know that they were even playing, you know, but it was like based on what you, what I thought that you thought of me, all your expectations of me, you know, that I created in my own head. And that's a recipe for disaster, you know. And what I've learned is like, you know, to be yourself and to be, I attract, when I'm on point, I attract to people, like, that's one thing. Like, you know, I see you, I saw your stuff.

Starting point is 00:34:07 And there's nothing better than like someone that like, I want to learn about it. I want to be creative. I want to be artsy. Like, I like to write, right? That's a passion of mine, right? And maybe the old, like, you know, the kid growing up, like, that's not how we walk, talk, act, right? Or like, certainly don't say that out loud. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 00:34:25 You might sound silly. Oh, you know, that's corny. And it's like, there's nothing. something cornea than what I put myself through. You know what I mean? Like that's, that's really, that's the truth.

Starting point is 00:34:34 And, and it's something that I, you know, I, I kind of, it keeps me going. You know what I mean? It really does.

Starting point is 00:34:42 It gives me, I'm passionate about like, just, I attract to people that are real, that are authentic, that are, and maybe that person don't even feel that way about themselves or think that.

Starting point is 00:34:51 But I can let them know that, right? I can let them know, because what, why I tell myself my head, you know, with that negative thinking and,

Starting point is 00:34:57 you know if i'm if i'm if i'm not taking care of myself or i'm living dishonestly right because it could be like the slightest thing right what are you what are you going to lose sleep at night you know um you know stealing from the government you know what i mean like it's like i'll be honest with you right and and you know i don't need no fucking no one coming after me for this right but i wouldn't lose sleep over that to this day like corporations and stuff like that it's just that's my i don't condone it i don't you know i mean like to each their own like you know but just be ready when when the um you know ready to to face the consequences are you know i don't care what anyone does like you know it's if you're if you're willing to take a shot or

Starting point is 00:35:39 you know if you want to whatever the thing is you know i'm i'm too busy i can't think of it you know i'm so much in here that um i don't have time to think about anyone else but but it's and that's fine when it comes to like negative stuff or stuff that isn't going to you know help me move forward or be there for the people that care about me, but at the same time, I have to, you know, humble myself in order to, like, be able to be present for the people or to sit here with you and to meet new people,

Starting point is 00:36:07 to network, to, um, you know, to do my best to, like, express myself and, like, speak my truth. Because I always say, I don't think that there's, I don't think you can fuck up the truth. I don't think that you can, you can stutter. You can get red in the face, right? You can feel all types of way. But, like, if it's your truth,

Starting point is 00:36:24 I believe that it's going to resonate out there. Like people are going to receive it exactly the way it's supposed to be received, right? And you're going to get the most, in turn, you're going to get good feedback, right? You're going to attract the right people to your life, right, as opposed to like me just regurgitate not telling you what I think you want to hear or, you know, kind of, you know, not being your authentic self. So I don't know. I just feel like, you know, in that regard, it's something that, you know, I, I, I love that.

Starting point is 00:36:55 You know, I'm big on, it's funny because you talked about, you know, being away and like, I think when Johnny Barton, being shoot around and how people, you know, people suck, right? They can't, right? But people are great, too. You know, it's all perspective. And, you know, there's times, I feel like those things we have to go through as well, right? Which may be super uncomfortable, but being in a situation where someone judges you based on the way you look or the way you talk or whatever the case may be. And, you know, that shit, I don't get to.

Starting point is 00:37:24 time for that where it's like um you know i'll stick up for you if someone's willing to defend them someone fight for themselves and they're like if or someone that's helpless and can't help themselves right it's like i don't we don't you know where i'm from it's like you know bullies get bullied you know what i mean um and for people to label someone and stuff like that like that's where it's like you know being away in in in prison you see it all the time right and guys get hung up on it and i know that's part of their you know that's part of this that that's an unhealthy healthy routine where it's like they're around they're going around every day it's like they're rat hunting or like pedophiles it's like bro like that all like as long as you know if it affects you or

Starting point is 00:38:05 it's got you know what I mean yeah do your homework do your research or whatnot but as far as it consuming me and me like caring what you know if I don't if I'm not breaking bread with you like it doesn't matter right if I'm not have a relationship with you or dealing with you then what am I going to be like I'm not am I going to go around and like um you you you know, and play that role. And because that's, to me, it's like, that's exhausting, you know, I, I don't want to, I just want, I got to learn how to take care of myself. That's just getting, that's just focusing on shit that is, that there's no control over, right?

Starting point is 00:38:38 Like, that person has to live with their shit, you know, that we can sit here and look in the mirror. For what it's worth, it's like, that to me is everything where, you know, I'm not, I don't, I'm not proud that I went to prison, but I'm, I'm not ashamed of it. right? What happened happened, right? And I believe that everything happens for a reason. I do. And you may not understand that at the time, but, you know, just hang on. And like, that's about, that's where faith comes in, I believe. And, you know, and then you come out the other side. And it's like, all right, so that's why that happened. You know, sometimes it's easy to get caught up in that mindset or whatnot. But, yeah. Why do you think you decide to go down that crime path, even though you came from such a good family and you had good roots? What was that like first decision to enter into that world? Fair. Fear.

Starting point is 00:39:29 I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Acceptance, right? Every person, right? You know, especially a kid, okay? It's no one's unique, right? It's like we put on this facade or this like bravado and, you know, we can, even the way to the, you know, even, you know, the way we dress or whatnot, you know, it's like, I can, you know, they say like a lot. You know, it's like, I can, you know, they say like a dressed up garbage can, right? Like, I like, I like, I like fashion.

Starting point is 00:39:57 I like dressing up. I like, you know, feeling good. But for a long time, like, that only gets that, what I realize for myself, it's like when, and it's a blessing and a curse in that way where, you know, who wants to face it? But, like, I feel like that's the only opportunity for growth is like the internal stuff where someone like me, like pain's a great motivator, right? And, you know, I'm stubborn, hardheaded. And at the end of the day, really, it comes.

Starting point is 00:40:22 It's consumed with like, you know, like I say about people, they wake up, they have anxiety, right? They have depression. Well, join the fucking club, right? And I say that in light, I say that in Jess where it's like, you're not alone. You know what I mean? Join the club where it's like, yeah, I get it, you know. It's fucking, it can be crippling. It can be debilitating, you know, so I can, you know, I have compassion and empathy towards that.

Starting point is 00:40:44 But when I look back, like, why I went down that road, it's the, that's the answer right there. And, you know, it's my answer. And because I could sit here and give you a story and tell you like this, that, the other thing, like, my parents didn't raise me to go down the path I did. But they talk about product of environment, right? And even with that being said, right? Because I remember I held the resentment against the neighborhood where when I did go away and I was young and I was probably looking to, you know, point the finger in my own head, like to just, you know, to be like, you know, feel like the victim and kind of like pity myself a little bit because I could. handle those emotions and whatnot and um couldn't accept my my my fate or reality and what what i had done that you know face those consequences so it had to be someone you know some place person place or

Starting point is 00:41:32 thing something other than me right and uh who who wants to look at themselves and the fact of the matter is like that's that's a lie you know and uh and when i when i was faced with that it's like all right so now what do you want to do because you can continue to suffer like that right but um you know there's nothing worse like i feel like it's like pergher on earth when like you know the truth and you're still you know you're defying it you're denying it and it's like you have to be okay with yourself so um and i believe you know being from that family that like taught me those morals values and principles that like um a community that i grew up in right yeah we glorified like when i went down that corner if you like i joke around but it's the truth right so marijuana is

Starting point is 00:42:15 like it's legal now right so growing up like PCP angel dust right which has um you know on fluid in it and we you know it was uh for generations you know that was a moneymaker but also it was a big um it was like smoking marijuana right and and it's childstown's known for like pcp and um when i remember when i was in wyatt there was i found out there was another neighborhood um bridge for it maybe like Aaron Hernandez i know he used like to smoke the smoke the dust and uh yeah just numbing yourself right i think that's why it was so popular and prevalent uh and to this day, you know, it's, um, you know, out of reality. But, um, yeah, growing up there, it's like, if you were a bank robber and if you smoked

Starting point is 00:43:03 angel dust, you know, um, in any order, you know, one, one you were cool and two you were cooler, you know, and, uh, and then at that point, right, you know, like I said, I checked those boxes and right. And it's like, okay, what do I get to do here? You know, how do I get to this position, right? that like um and then i thought i had made it right when i had you know an older friend tell me um you know that i heard he heard i was doing big things i like oh you're doing big things when i you know i had a brand new lexas truck and i'm 17 18 years old and uh you know coming down new york to meet to meet the connect um and you know i hold the you know hold the you know hold the keys to the to the neighborhood, like legend in my own mind, right?

Starting point is 00:43:46 Just a scared kid, just a kid that, like, you know, didn't know or wasn't willing to and was so consumed or, like, so worried about what I thought that you may have thought and then what in turn this had told me or what this was telling me to, you know, initially, you know, as soon as you wake up in the morning, it's like, that's my thing that I figured out, you know, over time where it's like I wake up untreated, right? So you can label it whatever you want But like at the end of the day It's what you know about yourself

Starting point is 00:44:17 And I know that certain things like I know They just don't they don't go with me They don't they're not gonna turn out well You know and I feel like Yeah there's so much there's there's more This and what makes me feel good is You know it's is the truth right And spreading the message spreading the word that like

Starting point is 00:44:41 and letting people know. And if someone picks up on it, right? Like, that's awesome, you know. It's just, it's a good feeling. And like I say, it's, uh, there's something to be said about it. And to be able to sit here like we are and, and to be able to hold your head up, right? It may not count for, it may not mean nothing to most people, but in our situation, right? Like, it means everything, right?

Starting point is 00:45:00 Your name, right? My family's name. My parents, right? Yeah, those knock around people, right? They, they're proud of their son, right? Even though, you know, it's like what they instilled in me? Like, I confirmed it by, like, not going to prison, right? All right.

Starting point is 00:45:15 So, yeah, going to prison and not, like, that's, that was my shit, right? But then they can still be proud of the person. Like, I came home and because of that, having that support system, right? And I say, I believe that love trumps all, that unconditional love that, like, is dysfunctional, chaotic and, like, abnormal as, like, a household may be growing up. What the fuck is normal, you know? And everyone has their own experience. But, like, I believe that that Trump. Saul. That's why I think I've been able to stay home, you know, for the past 15 years,

Starting point is 00:45:45 you know, there's been some close calls or whatnot, you know, but, you know, I haven't, I haven't went back and I think it's because of that. And so for people to have that support system or even to, you know, Jim Velvano, you've heard of the guy that died of cancer, the Villanova Coach, he was on ESPN before he died. And I think of this all the time, because when he said it, it was so deep and like, he said that his dad, he talked about his dad and how his dad used to tell him these simple words used to say i believe in you and like i say growing up in that household right i knew i felt you know there was love right i felt it right it was more like like come on what do you like like stop it like it wasn't there wasn't mushy you know

Starting point is 00:46:26 there was no i love yous and stuff like that and now i say it all the time right and uh and that's that that that rubs off on people but um that wasn't even even those that you know communicating like that expressing like that where yeah my father was provided my mother was like holding down the forward and like she had the three kids and um you know life life's going on and um you know here's this here's a young kid you know a little boy or whatever and it's like i never heard those words right and that's not a jab to my dad he'd have a few drinks and be like you know i love you know and i'm like dad listen you know my mother say what's he telling you he loves you again tell him to say when he's not having a you know having a couple of beers or whatnot and even

Starting point is 00:47:08 To be able to say that, to communicate that and express that to someone. Now, like, I'll say to my kids, like, listen, I believe in you, right? Sometimes I want to, you know, strangle my son as long, you know what I mean, choke them and just shake them. But it's everyone has their own journey. Everyone has to, and to be able to say that to someone, sometimes, you know, words are very powerful. So, you know, and actions are even more powerful. But to be able to back that up, you know, it starts with the words, you know, the actions. And then, like, to be able to say, like, you know, to tell someone, I believe in you, like,

Starting point is 00:47:38 I think of that. Like, when he said that, it's just, it really hit home where it's like, we second guess ourselves. I'll speak for myself or doubt ourselves or those fears and insecurities and that are embedded. And then in turn, now you're stunted emotionally and mentally because you're making bad decisions and you're putting yourself in harm's way. And like, now you're behind the eight ball, right? And I feel like even with prison, you know, I know that that's going to, that's going to

Starting point is 00:48:08 follow me for the rest of my life, right? Whether it be job opportunities, whatever the case is, right? But I believe that we're resilient, you know, where survivors, where, and that goes for anyone, you know, like I said, like, I'd never tell on no one and I'm not a fucking weirdo, right? Like, I don't like, you know, so I'll be all right. I tell my kids the best thing I tell them, I'm like, listen, I can't promise your success. I can't promise your financial, like all that stuff.

Starting point is 00:48:35 But I will tell you this. if you treat people the way that you want to be treated, you'll be okay in life. And that's, I believe that firmly, you know, and that's, I learned that in fucking grammar school,

Starting point is 00:48:47 you know, just treat people the way you want to be treated. And it's, yeah, I think that's, that's the way to go. Did you end up graduating high school at all? So,

Starting point is 00:48:57 I did graduate. I was, believe it or not, yeah, I was, I was a honor roll student. Really? Huh, okay.

Starting point is 00:49:04 On a roll student, right? Actually, it's, yeah, it looked like, Like you in high school, dude, freshman year. I had the glasses, right? I remember walking around. I had my books.

Starting point is 00:49:11 Everyone had backpacks. And, yeah, now I wear contacts. And that's a funny story. You talk about fucking craziness. I was in sixth grade. I went home. This is why my eyes, like, if I didn't have my contacts in, I wouldn't be able to function like throughout the day.

Starting point is 00:49:26 I'd be like legally blind, probably. I'd say, in sixth grade, I must have thought, like, saw someone on a magazine. I thought someone was cool that had glasses. And I went home and I told my mother, right? because how do we get, you know, the manipulation and like, you know, and I went home and I told her, all right, I can't see the blackboard, ma. And she said, all right, so she makes an appointment for the automatrist,

Starting point is 00:49:48 and I go and I fail the test on purpose. So needless to say, I can't see now, right? So I have to wear the contacts, which I, you know, I sleep with. They're supposed to be taken out. And like a little kid, you know, I still need to be handled like that sometimes, you know. So it's trial and error. but I made honor roll and I attributed to like my mother

Starting point is 00:50:07 that being, you know, mummy dearest being, I was scared of my mother to this day, right? She, she, I still have that fear, right? And, you know, I try to look at it like, you know, there's probably more, more for like, therapy, therapy, a counseling session where it's like,

Starting point is 00:50:25 you know, that shit's real too, you know. You know, PTSD where it's like, you know, just being, when someone, Someone feels small when someone, I remember being a little kid and being at the top of the stairs. And like, we don't realize how we affect other people. And like, it really runs like, you know, shit rolls downhill or it's like we have a profound effect on people. And it's not like a malicious thing.

Starting point is 00:50:49 Like, you know, like, you know, my intent, I feel like I've always had good intent, right? But what's that I mean? What's that count for? Right. I've also hurt people because, you know, I'm not perfect, right? So that's more for when you know, to say that, that's more for myself, more for my own, like, you know, well, I didn't mean to or, you know, or even growing up thinking like, you know, my middle name was like sorry. You know, I always saying sorry. And like that doesn't, what I've learned and like that doesn't help build self-esteem.

Starting point is 00:51:18 It doesn't, it doesn't help like build character or anything like that because you're self-loathing, right? You feel like for someone to always say sorry, right? Well, I had to always say sorry because maybe I started off feeling less than whatever, right? And that's my own, that's something that maybe, you know, whatever the case is, I'm obligated to do something about it, right? Because or else I'm going to suffer, right? And I'm going to be that victim and I'm going to be on the installment plan, right? And, yeah, that's, it's not, that's not for me anymore.

Starting point is 00:51:49 But it's certainly there, you know, there's, like they say, there's jail cells for, for sober people, there's jail cells for, you know, people that are just living, you know, just living their life and they're not, you know, it doesn't seem like, uh, check a little, the skies falling, everything looks good, you know, it's, there's, there's, there's certainly jail sells for them, so I don't want to. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet. How much did we save?

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Starting point is 00:53:35 So I, like I said, I hit the corner. You know, I went from sports to courts. You know, I played sports growing up. You know, I went to, you know, Catholic school, you know, went to high school. And after I graduated, I graduated high school. and I went to school. I was either going to go to UMass Amherst or I ended up going to, I found

Starting point is 00:54:01 a school that was like the biggest party school at the time. It was like North Adams State College. That's where my mind was at. I just, and I went there in the first year. It was like, it was turning into like mass college of liberal arts, right? So that was right there. This should have been like a, you know,

Starting point is 00:54:17 kind of a red flag or something that I picked up on. But I didn't know it was kind of like led to where, you know, I was about to go and stuff. I couldn't see it. You know, I certainly couldn't see it. So I ended up around 15, I went down the corner around 15, high school, you know, I was, I was there down the corner. I was with my friends and, you know, there was a lot of fun there, you know, but, you know,

Starting point is 00:54:42 a lot of chaos, a lot of, a lot of, you know, abnormal, just wild shit, you know, stuff that we can, you know, maybe laugh about, but there's stuff probably that should be, um, either for garden or rarely, you know, garden out and purged of. But I went down that corner and then, you know, I had, like I say, I had a run from like maybe 15 or 16. And, you know, at this time, you know,

Starting point is 00:55:11 now I had to be like, you know, that legend in my own mind. I had to create that character that I didn't know I was creating. So I started out and, you know, I made my bones. I earned my stripes and, and uh and i i went above and beyond to like make sure that like you knew that like i was um you know i was one of you you know and uh and it got me exactly where it was supposed to get me

Starting point is 00:55:35 and and um at 21 years old i had that run from like you know that that was my child that basically that was my it wasn't my you know the the good failings that was my that was the wild and crazy and um basically where you know where it got me and And at 21 years old, I, like I said, I was driving to Maine. I was driving to Maine. I had a few friends that played for University of Maine. They had won the national championship, I think, the year before. And one of my friends called me, he said, are you holding?

Starting point is 00:56:08 And I said, absolutely, always. And he said, all right, well, he said, won you come up with is a big party tonight. So at the time, I remember I had, you know, my parents, I was like, they, I thought I was like a big boy now. I thought like I had it all figured out. I was going to get my own apartment. I didn't like the way that, you know, I felt like I'm a man now, you know, like, you know, I don't need, you know what I mean? Like, show me some respect, you know? And so I remember I was kind of like just, I was in the car.

Starting point is 00:56:39 I'm staying at hotels and just just living, living crazy, right? And thinking, it's all. I'm trying to think it was fun. And I remember I drove to New Hampshire. and when I drove to New Hampshire, I drove to Maine, and I had missed the exit for, for Maine. I was looking for one specifically for Maine, and I ended up seeing, like, New Hampshire, Maine, and I realized that I had, like, went around in a circle. So on impulse, I, you know, I get annoyed, and I hit the gas, and I ended up, you know,

Starting point is 00:57:12 now I'm, now I'm speeding, and I come under an overpass, and, you know, in the dip there, there's two stadiums they're they're they're facing each other like that and um i was probably going 90 or so um i wish you know when i look back i'm like you know it's it's it's pointless now but i i'm sure i could have at least like got to an exit or whatever but i think i think even even that i think it was bigger than me i think that that was like you know my higher power god that you know that i that i grew up knowing that that he was just like all right enough's enough kid you know what i mean like you're not stopping so like this this you know i'm going to be you know i'm going to going to put an end to this and I ended up deciding to pull over for whatever reason and I pulled over

Starting point is 00:57:53 a pharmacy's worth of um you know I had over 5,000 oxyconin um and I had a nine millimeter I had a gun underneath a seat and now with that being said right you know where I grew up it's like yeah notorious and like it's like you know bank robbery and armed trucks and stuff like that and um that was glorified and like that that happened that was that was a real thing and and and something that, you know, that was, that was, that was where it was at. That was like what kids aspire to be teenage kids, teenage boys, certainly. And when I look back, yeah, I ended up, I got pulled over. We never, we never carried guns around and stuff, unless you were going to do a score, right?

Starting point is 00:58:36 That, like, are, you know, someone had an individual beef or something, you know, typically, you know, in the, you know, 80s and, like early 90s, like, yeah, there was, you know, guys that, you know, there was a lot of murders and stuff like that. and, you know, code of silence and people, even mothers that knew that their child had gotten killed by a certain person, like they just, you know, was just not talked about, you know, was handled on the street or whatnot. But for the most part, like, you know, I fought every one of my friends growing up. And, you know, you get closer like that, you know. And that's just boys being boys.

Starting point is 00:59:06 And, you know, there was, so there was no gun, like, people didn't carry guns around where I'm from, you know. Like, that wasn't, you know, gang bang and all shit like that, you know. That wasn't our story, you know. we didn't need to. But when it was time to get down, that's what, you know, they were very available. And, you know, everyone, everyone was ready to go.

Starting point is 00:59:27 So I had that gun. And I remember I got pulled out. The guy said step out of the car. And, you know, he, you know, the inventory, the old inventory search, you know, which they're not supposed to really touch anything. Just look around. And, you know, so he ended up opening, you know,

Starting point is 00:59:43 he ended up, you know, looking around. And he had me in the back. of the cruiser and at that point what are you gonna do you know you know you know he asked can I search the trunk absolutely no you know come on you already got me you know what I mean you think I'm gonna make your job easier and um but I remember failing the weight like a gorilla I felt like a huge weight

Starting point is 01:00:01 come off my shoulders um I didn't know what it was at the time but it was almost as if I could you know I exhaled for the first time since I was that that kid with like there was still some innocence left or still some uh you know that five six years of like just madness, you know, um, was exhausting. And, and I felt like I, you know, almost held my breath the whole time, you know, just, just in when he put those cuffs on something, just, I was just like, you know,

Starting point is 01:00:31 like, you know, I needed to be stopped. And, um, you know, I look back and, you know, at the time I wasn't, obviously I wasn't throwing up, you know, I wasn't celebrating that. You know, I wasn't, I was broken at the time, you know, I was a. kid. I was, I was scared. I was more than anything. I was just hurt. You know, I was just like a shell of a person. And, you know, my family, like I said, they showed up. They supported me, what on it. They've always been there for me. And, you know, I was 21 years old. And they sentenced me, you know, with the feds, they go by the guidelines, you know. So hire a lawyer for 50 grand, you know.

Starting point is 01:01:10 arm and they plead out like you just took 50 grand for me and fucking to plead out for the lower end of the guidelines like I'll take my I'll represent myself next time right how did it become a federal case from the state troopers arresting what so fired so 924c means use and carry a firearm in relation to a drug trafficking crime right I'm no law expert but I know this from my from my case and what they're saying is that you are using and carrying the gun to protect the drugs okay which wasn't the case. But that's how they get you. So now they get me for crossing state lines.

Starting point is 01:01:46 That's federal. Okay? While at the same time, they had started in 2000, right before I went away, I was, like I said, I kind of put a little resume together, you know?

Starting point is 01:01:58 And, you know, I had the fed show up at my house and with my parents there. And that was kind of a funny story. That's one of the stories I told the Affleck, you know, that he got a kick out of, and you know, play good cop, bad cop,

Starting point is 01:02:12 and just trying to let me know. Like, that's what they were doing, but they were, you know, they were trying to pump for information, but it was like, you know, you got the wrong person, you know what I mean? This is because you were selling oxy?

Starting point is 01:02:24 We were robbing, you know, at that point, I had stepped out, I'd started, you know, the banks and then from then realizing that the banks, there's not enough, there's no money in banks, right? If you're going to make it worth it, right? Like, you're going to make that move.

Starting point is 01:02:39 you're going to step out, then like, the almond trucks is the way to go, right? And that's just... But you never went to prison for robbing banks. No, no, right. So in statute of limitations, too, that's a good thing. But yeah, I remember, you know, so they were investigating for that. So the feds were already, they were investigating for that. One of the kids I was running with my running part of the time, you know, he's doing life now.

Starting point is 01:03:03 And I had no business being, you know, but I was, like I said, I was a follower. where I, you know, I got in where I thought I could fit in, and like, and I ran, I would have ran, you know, like I say, I'm the asshole, like, and I say this for my own self and, like, to humble myself where, like, you know, that loyalty, like, loyal to a fault where, like, I'll end up catching a life bit as your co-defendant because, like, you know, because you're my friend or I grew up with you all,

Starting point is 01:03:34 like, you're from the neighborhood and, like, you're a good dude, you're solid, right? maybe you might be out of your fucking mind, right? And all that sociopath or psychopath or like, you know, untreated, like, you know, off your meds, whatever the case may be. And next thing you know, you know, I'm an accessory to murder or whatever, you know, whatever it is. And now I'm doing life in prison because I put myself in a bad position around, you know,

Starting point is 01:03:58 someone that doesn't matter. Like, it's not a moral thing, right? They may be if I can, I may think very highly of them, you know, but, um, so I was, I ended up, they were investigating, you know, the feds, they had investigated that, you know, this bank robbery task force. So they were already on your tail when the stateies pulled you over. Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 01:04:18 So they must have got the call and they were like, you know, okay, you know, they must that. That makes it. How much was those drugs worth, like dollar value? So the total, the score altogether, and I know this from my paperwork and stuff and, you know, just being bored and in there, you know, when you're fighting your case, is, you know, one of the kids, my friend from South Boston, that I ended up just, he was hanging out with me that day because a couple of days prior, you know, like I said about

Starting point is 01:04:45 the pharmacies, like, you know, people, when I went away, people, like, I heard horror stories of people like, they were going in with butter knives. Like, I never was, I wasn't addicted to these pills, right? I was, I was, I was, we were getting them. And I was flipping them right away, you know? and my two buddies that that we started that we started doing it um and then it was monkey see monkey do but my two buddies they both passed away you know and they were two younger kids these kids have balls their balls were they were these kids had so much heart but like and i wish that like you know i wish that they could have another chance to just like you know put that heart like

Starting point is 01:05:23 where it's you know and i talk about the code or like you know there's something to be said about like yeah we may fuck up our life so I'll put ourselves in positions where we end up in prison but like I feel like when we do something we go all in right and when we take an oath we are we you know we honor a code right like I said it doesn't have to mean anything to anyone else but like from where I'm from and like you know where where we grew up like and where you've been like that counts for everything you know what I mean so God forbid if like if if the If things ever, you know, if you ever have to end up in that environment or whatnot, it's nice to know, like, you know, you can survive anything.

Starting point is 01:06:06 And what, you know, what I try to survive now is life, you know, on a daily basis. But they had the Bankrobry Task Force. Then they had started an OxyContin Task Force. And Margaret Cronin was her name. Yeah. And, you know, it's all in the paperwork. But the total value for that school was like close to like a million dollars. Wow.

Starting point is 01:06:27 Now that's between four people, you know what I mean? And like street value, obviously, you know what I mean? You'd take, you know, it'd take less. That's a catchy headlines. I got to do that, you know. Yeah, yeah. And but like I said, you know, I look back and, you know, my friend from South Boston, he was just hanging out with me one day.

Starting point is 01:06:45 And my buddy who passed away, he said, Joe, we got to, you know, we're going to do that score. And these kids, the wild, they, now I'm the older kid to them, right? I'm a few years older. And they, these kids didn't give a fuck, right? I've said, you know, they'd hop the counters and at banks and, like, they were, they'd watch the movie heat. They get all am up, right?

Starting point is 01:07:09 And like, and here I am, right? So the younger kids, they're asking me. So I can't say no, right? And I'm like, fuck, I really don't want to, you know. The shit that everyone's through your head too, it's like, yeah, it's an ultimate high, but it's like, why, like crazy shit. Like, you know, silly stuff. Like, it's almost, it's comical.

Starting point is 01:07:26 but that rush is like so intense um you know i remember i talk about this you know my my first one of my first the bank robbery was i remember i had like a dirty hair he was like a 45 right and i'm like this you know skinny like 17 year old kid and i got a painter's outfit on and uh like that wouldn't stick out right and i'm i'm suited up like on from head to toe and it's a friday morning because like you know um you know we watch movies right we do our homework We learn from the older guys in the neighborhood, right? And that's, you know, we, that's Bible as far as we're concerned at that age. And I remember going in and I was supposed to hold the floor.

Starting point is 01:08:06 So it was holds the floor. So my buddy helps the concert and I'm holding the floor. And it's a Friday morning. Now people are catching their checks, right? We're in a Spanish neighborhood, right? Because we don't do it in our neighborhood, right? You don't shit where you eat. And I remember I had like a 45 and like, this thing was huge.

Starting point is 01:08:24 It was like, I must have looked so ridiculous, but there was a couple of Spanish girls and they were huddled up together, you know. And I look back and like talk about being raised with that family where like that's not, like doing this, yes, I did these things, but like that's not how I was raised to be. And I remember now we're in there in like 10 seconds probably feels like a minute. A minute feels like an hour, right. And I'm like, all right, all right. You know, I'm trying to be patient.

Starting point is 01:08:52 A guy comes in and I like, all right, you know, put him on the floor. floor and like uh and i always tell people it's like you know in pope fiction you know everybody you know everybody you know everybody be cool this a robbery you know what i mean you know i can't come out with nothing original at that point you know maybe maybe now i could but uh and i remember the i had maybe i got spooked or i was paranoid you know like i got a little i kind of um you know because you want to be calm like i never did i never did a robbery when i was i never was under the influence you know that's one thing and um but that just fed into the ego where it's like I label myself these things, like, for us to drug deal or a stick up kid.

Starting point is 01:09:26 Like, I'm, you know, I'm, I'm that guy. And, like, the fact of the matter was, like, you know, no, I'm the guy that will do these things to, like, let you know that. And I remember I pointed the gun. I pointed the gun at the, um, at a woman, uh, in, you know, a middle age woman. And to this day, like, and it's not something I'm proud of. It's, you know, it's not funny. It's fucking actually, it's probably, it probably haunts me.

Starting point is 01:09:53 little, you know, it's, but I remember I saw the look in our eyes and it was like a deer in the headlights. And, um, and I remember lowering it, right? I'm not in there trying to hurt anyone, right? I just want, I just want what I want when I want it. And like, you know, um, and I remember lowering and I was like, you know, I'm sorry, you know what I mean? I'm not here. Now, here I am explaining like, I'm robbing this bank, right? And these people are probably like, um, you know, I don't know what happened to that woman. I don't know if she had a heart attack. I don't know, you know.

Starting point is 01:10:25 Those are the things that like, you know, I tell that story because like it's, it happened, right? Where into no like, it's like that, I look back at that and just the thinking and like that, like what I was willing to do and who I was willing to put in harm's way and, you know, not thinking about anything but what I needed and what and what I want. wanted, and that's not how I was raised, like I say, you know. So this, you know, I don't condone that shit. You know, I would be completely against. I'd be the first person. I'd walk an old lady across street with their groceries, you know. That's how we were brought up, and I'm sure you would do the same thing.

Starting point is 01:11:06 But when it came down to that stuff, it was like, you know, just almost as if you, you should have known when I walked in that, like, you know, all right, we had a collect and like, this is, you know, this is our tribute. How did your parents react to your arrest when they found out? What was that first conversation with them like? You know what? I remember they came to the state police barracks. And I was, you know, I talk about shame.

Starting point is 01:11:35 I remember I was just like I had my head down. I couldn't even look at them in the eye, you know, and I had the shackles and the cuffs and they were just, they were sad. They were just devastated. You know, my mother had told me later when she, come they'd come once a year once i went to palan with to pennsylvania and and she would come and she you know i remember her saying like it was she could sleep finally when i was when i was away you know um the stuff that we put our families through and you know that was that felt good you know

Starting point is 01:12:08 it's like um the last thing you want to do is hurt hurt her to love to hurt you know hurt anyone uh for that matter um but it was like that selfish like you know that immature selfish attitude and um even even when i got sentenced i remember thinking i had already taken the plea for 111 months and you know in my head because who i couldn't wrap my head around that i'm 21 years old and i remember being in the boat in the tank in the cage um and they brought me down right before i went up to get sentenced here i am thinking in my head like you know pacing back and forth i'm like you know they're going to see my family they're going to look at me and be like look at this he's not that bad you know what i mean

Starting point is 01:12:49 mean they're going to know who joe is at his core you know i mean they're going to see through um and they're going to see that like this kid don't don't deserve this right well that's not that's not the way it works uh my judge was the space shuttle that blew up when i was a kid uh christin mccullough she was from new hampshire i want to say she was a school teacher and her husband judge mccullough he was my he was my federal judge um and i got sent inside new hampshire and they ended up yeah and then I ended up going after like a year and a half almost two years I stayed in New Hampshire in like a county jail which was um yeah so I kind of ran amok there you know I was young and wild and um you know and I had the energy to be able to do that stuff

Starting point is 01:13:38 um you know since a money owns my dad for the cigarettes and stuff you know um like I said I was still playing that role and still like you know um along the way and and I guess I needed it to like, you know, survive at that point. And then I went, when I went to the feds, like I said, those, my, you know, my two older, older guys, you know, Steve L. and Ritchie G., you know, they just took me into their wing and they, they showed me. Like, I grew up with them as far as, like, they taught me about respect and, like, more so, how to respect, you know, yourself and in turn be able to show, like, true genuine respect

Starting point is 01:14:13 for another person, you know what I mean? Because they, they had been there. They didn't, they weren't, you know, I wasn't a crash dump. me, you know, they weren't, you know, gassing me up all like, you know, putting batteries in my back to like, they cared, you know, they're good people and they had seen enough and they had been through enough and they were still going through it. And they saw a young kid come in that, you know, certainly didn't have a clue. And, you know, when I needed to be, you know, they needed to fuck with me. You know what I mean? They certainly let me hear it. They needed to,

Starting point is 01:14:44 like, humble me or whatever. I'll let me know, like, my place. And they did that, which I'm grateful for. And when I needed to be uplifted, or needed to be like called of a little, you know, as that, like I said, that kid, that the baby boy, you know, of the house, that mama's boy, like, they did that as well. So, you know, I look back and I'm, you know, for those guys, like, I'm forever grateful, you know,

Starting point is 01:15:04 I mean, those are my friends, like, you know, and I believe a friend is someone that you don't have to see, you know, the best way I can say it is like, I don't have to see, you are friends, I don't have to see you for X amount of time. When we see each other, we pick up where we left off. They'll never. be that, you know, when you got the person that says, oh, where you've been?

Starting point is 01:15:22 I'll like, oh, you know, when they make you feel a type of way, it's like, bro, I'm living my life, right? You all live in your life, right? There's no love loss, right? And everyone's just doing the best they can. And you pick up what you left off. And it's very rare to find those types of relationships, you know? But, you know, I cherish them. So as far as like the, yeah, I ended up, I got the 11 months.

Starting point is 01:15:44 You know, you would ask what my parents thought. They were just, they were sad. They were devastated. and I think they were relieved, to be honest with you. Is Richie in Boston? Is he from Boston area? You know Richie. Yeah, I do.

Starting point is 01:15:55 I met him at Revere, right? Captain Morgan. Yeah, we're trying to get him on the show. I know. He wears glasses, right? Yes, Rishi's the best. Yeah, I didn't know he was there with you too. Yeah, I think he's leaning towards doing it.

Starting point is 01:16:05 He's seen me film a couple episodes. Old school guy. No, that's the guy right there. And, you know, if Stevie could come on with them, them, too, like the odd couple, right? but they're like, you know, there's so much alike. They're so different. And like I said, you know, they would, there were times and they would, they would switch, you know, they talk about good car, bad car, but it's like good, good con, fucking, you know,

Starting point is 01:16:29 or tough love and like then like, you know, some affection where they would, they would play that, right? If Stevie was bullshit at me, right? Because I'm a kid. I'm making mistakes, right? I'm doing things that maybe, you know, I don't see like a few moves ahead like they see, like, you know, what could happen, how, you know, how to, you know, how to, act, how to carry myself, how to, how to, how to, you know, basically just fall in line and, like,

Starting point is 01:16:55 you know, kind of almost be invisible, but, like, also have a voice, like, when need be. And, you know, knowing that you don't want to stick out in an environment like that, you know, you just kind of want to keep your head down. But, you know, let people know, like, don't, that's not for, you know, that doesn't mean anything about being soft or anything like that, you know, it's like that, that's, and that's what they taught me. So right there, Richie, he is, I tell him. I told them, the last time I talked to him, I'm like, Rich, you got to, you got to, um, he helps a lot of people.

Starting point is 01:17:24 He's very selfless. And his story is amazing. And I told him, I said, you can help a lot of people, you know, even more so than you already do. And I think you'd be the perfect person that, that could, you know, present him to, to, to an audience or whatnot, you know, with the platform that you have. I think, you know, that, that's a, that's a no-brainer, you know, that's a definitely. He's the best, you know, and he's friends with Johnny Bart. Yeah, great guys. Yeah, they just, there's very, it's a rare breed.

Starting point is 01:17:56 It's a few and far between, but you know what? I wouldn't have it any other way, you know. So share with us some prison war stories. I'm sure you got some good ones from, you know, that many years in there. So prison war stories. So I got, well, the one that sticks out, the one that comes to mind is, um, I had a beef with, um, like I said, 111 months, you know. I don't like confrontation.

Starting point is 01:18:17 I'll look for fights or whatnot. but if you will be tested, you know what I mean, whether intentionally are just like spontaneously, you know, there's a lot of hormones, a lot of, a lot of, yeah, egos and hormones, like, you know, bouncing around in there, and it's very heavy, as you know. And I had a fight with a, I had a beef with a kid from D.C. He was a black kid. You know, in Boston, when I say that, like, where I grew up, like,

Starting point is 01:18:48 it was white Irish Catholic, right? With that being said, like, I'm a city boy, right? I'm a city kid. If you're from the city, right, like, even though I grew up in that environment, right, when I was on the bus and it was like, you know, me and a Canadian kid, like, who's a different type of, you know, where he's, he didn't grow up like I did, like,

Starting point is 01:19:06 but he may have the same complexion. And, you know, I was only white kid on the bus for what it's worth. There was no, I was more like wondering, oh, what's it going to be like this and that? But as far as like another person, like, you know, being worried or nervous about another person based on their complexion or something like that. That wasn't the case. You know, we had our own story.

Starting point is 01:19:31 You know, we had made our own, you know, our own noise. And I had a fight with a kid from D.C. And we were playing fly football, right? So they had on Sundays, right? It's like, you know, around Thanksgiving or something like that. You know, we get out of the blocks. And at this time, you know, they had made us, they had swished it up. So the Boston guys used to have their own team in 0-3.8.

Starting point is 01:19:56 And then we would play with like the New York guys, right? The New York guys, the Philly guys. And they started it so you could only play it with your unit, right? So there's four units in Allenwood at the time. And Stevie's our quarterback. Richie plays. Richie's like the tight end or something. on the tight end and

Starting point is 01:20:19 I remember Stevie you know Stevie was the quarterback he was like Johnny Utah and fucking point break and off from the the other one that the I can't think of the name but it's a funny one a funny movie with the I think Keanu Reeves or something

Starting point is 01:20:35 so I remember playing it was a Sunday and we're up in the yard and I remember they're playing the politics that goes on there right so I'm like the only one there's a couple of us right but it was like Steve's the quarterback right and he's running the show and I'm on the sidelines right and you know I'm kind of you know

Starting point is 01:20:53 know quiet for the most part you know I know and just kind of taking everything in and I'm 20 probably at the time probably like 24 25 I'm in my prime at least I think I am right and there was an older there was an old there was an old dude buck from uh from the Bronx right and he was washed up right this black dude buck and he was like and he was playing he wouldn't come out of the game so now like I'm like I'm like I'm like getting my feelings. I'm like, bro, this is fucking bullshit. I'm out of here, right? So I leave, right?

Starting point is 01:21:22 I don't say nothing to no one, right? I'm like pouting and I'm walking away and I go to grab my netbag and there's about, there's about five or six dudes from D.C., right? And they're on the bleachers. And there's a kid that just hit the compound, a tall kid, right? A young kid. And he was sitting on my net bag and I'm like, excuse me. And he didn't move.

Starting point is 01:21:45 Right? So now I'm already annoyed that they end up, right? So I'm like, excuse me, and I pulled it and I ripped it out. So now he looks at me, right? Right. And when he looked at me, I'm like, I'm like, what's up, bro? And he's like, now when I say that, right, now I'm not thinking, right? I'm thinking about how they just fucking were playing politics.

Starting point is 01:22:04 They wouldn't let, you know, they're playing this dude over me. And, you know, and when I pulled it out, I said, what's, you know, he looked to me like I had 10 heads. I said, what's up? and he said, he got up in front of all these dues. I had been at this compound now for like four or five years. I had seen these, you know, these dues on the weight pile and stuff, right? You know, we don't sit down and eat together, but like they know me. I know them.

Starting point is 01:22:28 They know, you know, Richie's TV. You know what I mean? It's like a mutual respect, you know, more or less. And, you know, you do your thing. We do our thing. And these dudes that I had been on the weight pile with that I had seen for the past, you know, four or five years that, you know, walked by and high and by. you know at that point when I was by myself and they showed their true colors and the kid got up and like put on a show and he was trying to put on a show and he got up and he stood up and he started taking his jacket off right which is a bad move so here I am now right right there the butterflies the adrenaline kicks in right like I said I don't like confrontation I don't want it right so I'm trying to think quick but it's not quick enough because I don't want to go to the hole right I'm trying to do my time like you know smoothly but at the same time like you know smoothly but at the same time like

Starting point is 01:23:14 Now you got me, you know, it's fight off flight and I'm not flying anywhere, right? Like something like this, we're going to have like a standoff here, right? And so I'm thinking, I'm like, all right. So the kid says now he thinks he starts taking his coat off. He says, yeah, you know, you know, what's up with all? Fuck all this. What's up, shit, blah, blah, blah. And I said, bro, I don't know what this all is.

Starting point is 01:23:39 I came over to get my bag and you looked at me like I had 10 heads. and right before that I had looked at all the dues that I had known almost like a last-ditch effort to be like, bro, talk to you, talk to your boy, you know what I mean? Like control them, right? And when I looked at them, right, they showed their true colors and they all went like, you're on your own, you know what I mean? And they could have stepped up and been like, bro, leave it alone, you know? They didn't, right?

Starting point is 01:24:04 So they wanted to see something, right? So they got to, they got it. They wanted, I guess. And the kid says, yeah, next time he must have done. thought I was carp and he must have thought I was like carbon a plea when I was like you know explaining you know what I was trying to do was just like you know I was trying to just uh diffuse the situation you know um and when I said that you know the ignorance he just said like well next time keep walking so at that point it was just like all right so then I attacked him right so

Starting point is 01:24:31 now all these years right I had like a couple of beasts before but like I said you know that wasn't I try to you know I would like to you know try to avoid them but when they're there they're there and um you know sometimes they're unavoidable and i took so much aggression out on this fucking poor kid i remember i had his dreadlocks i was turning them they were like pulling out like i was pulling out chunks of his hair and you know the hillbillies in pennsylvania there was like you know the ceos the screws had like two teeth one for soup one for steak you know and they're like they're racist these motherfuckers right like they say boston's racist it's like no dude we we don't like we don't like ignorance you know what i mean like it doesn't matter if you're white black fucking

Starting point is 01:25:07 Spanish or you know what I mean? Where the, and so that we get, you know, stereotypically, we get like a bad rap for that, you know what I mean? I met so many, like, if you know, real recognizes real, like, you know, that's one thing that I am glad about, you know, being away and like learning about different cultures.

Starting point is 01:25:23 Like, you know, it's something that I didn't grow up around, right? And I was, that was fine. But like, like, to experience that and know, like, not that I didn't know before, but I had never been, you know, that's something I wasn't accustomed to. So to meet people that like, you know, just good people from different races, different nationalities, different cultures,

Starting point is 01:25:40 to learn about their, you know, their little mixes with the food and stuff like that, you know. That's something that, you know, I try to, that I am grateful for, you know, I try to, I look back and stuff. Would you run with the New England car? Yes, Boston, yeah, 038, yeah. Is that small in Allenwood? Because I feel like there's more of them in, you know, like Massachusetts, Devons, Fort Dix. Yeah, well, no, no, there's, no, we had a good, we had a good size. I mean, there wasn't, it was probably small than most places, but like, not.

Starting point is 01:26:07 Now, Alan was like, you know, they're spread out. Now you have, it's a huge compound, right? You have the pen, you have the medium, you have the low, you know, and. Where were you in? The medium, I went from the medium to low when I was in, and because it goes by point system. So now, this was my first time in prison. So I'm not going to go straight to a penitentiary unless I, you know, unless it was warranted, right? So I was going away for drugs and a gun, you know.

Starting point is 01:26:35 They gave me 10 years. They smoked me, and they made an example out of me. Like I said, I think that they, like I was the first one to go away and when they probably got that call, they were like, all right, you know, they, they couldn't get me for other stuff, but they knew exactly what was going on. And so they made up for it in the end, you know, like, you know, I always, I never could have imagined. I didn't know. I was ignorant to it, you know, and to the law, you know, where I thought that if I, if I was to get called with a gun that I, you know, that I had no business even having, you know, but I didn't. didn't need at that time at that point, right, once in a while, and that I'd get like a year and a day in the county or something. And so those were, those were consequences I thought out, you know, that I could handle. I was willing to face. But little did I know it's,

Starting point is 01:27:23 you know, they hit me with the five, you know, using carry. So now you're getting five for a gun, you know, and I couldn't even fathom it. And then five for the drugs. So, yeah. So at that point, like I said, you know, I made the big time. And it wasn't all it was cracked up. It was, you know, all it was cracked up to be, you know. But it's certainly something that I look back and, you know, I'll never get that time back. I know when I came home, I try to maybe make up for lost time for a little bit. I realize that that's not an option and that's not, that's not reality.

Starting point is 01:27:56 That's, I'll never get that time back. And now, how do I, you know, what do I want to do from that point, you know? You know, that's a shitty feeling to think. but at the same time, you know, it does, it served me no purpose or it hasn't, there's nothing good that's come out of me, you know, being resentful or holding, you know, feeling like I'm entitled or that, you know, if you have been through what I've been through, you know, like, you know, I put myself in that position, you know, I cost myself that time. And I wasn't the only one to suffer.

Starting point is 01:28:26 Really, my family probably suffered worse than me, you know. You know, they were out here living life, you know. they were dealing with life on all. Bonjour, compadre. It's the Priceline negotiator. How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget. The Price Line app.

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Starting point is 01:29:44 Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards. Ralph's SoCal for over 150 years, savings may vary by state fuel restrictions. apply. See site for details. Life's terms and, you know, I wasn't there just, you know, just wasting time, you know. Was it a struggle to readjust because you missed like some pivotal years, 20s to 30? So was it a struggle to, you know, readjust socially back into society? Socially, I would say, um, maybe like some, you know, anxiety had, you know, that had kicked in.

Starting point is 01:30:30 but I always um yeah you know as far as like being personal and stuff like that and like I said I it was either here's the thing when I had come home right um I'm on this the people I'd you know I'd run into people and now this person has to see me for X amount of time what they remember me as is the person that they're going to treat me as or talk to me as right now I've grown but they don't know that and I don't even know how to like I don't don't know what that feels like looks like or anything i don't know how it's going to apply to life in general and uh what it's going to look like so when they're talking as much as i'm cringing like dude this isn't i don't want to hear that nonsense right you're talking to me like i'm fucking 20 you know

Starting point is 01:31:14 20 21 and a teenager and you it's like it's like i don't need your validation you know i mean i don't need i don't need to you know i i had grown in that way and but i at the time i don't think i was ready to kind of step outside of myself. So I had to do some more, you know, in that department, I had to grow, you know, grow more. And like with that, like I said, pain is a great motivator. I had to bang my head some more times. I had to realize that like, you know, what's my agenda? What's my motive?

Starting point is 01:31:46 I never looked at those things. So like if I'm uncomfortable in the past, what I do is like without even realizing it, right? With, it does, the intent is irrelevant. if God forbid Joe's uncomfortable, right? Like, what can I do? Like, you need to make me comfortable. I'm not going to say it aloud, but like, what can I do to, you know, so I'm comfortable.

Starting point is 01:32:08 Fuck you, right? Not that I'm thinking, fuck you. But I can't, I'm so uncomfortable that I can't think of anyone but me. And so when I came home, as far as that goes, yeah, there was, there was an adjustment. The biggest adjustment was showing up for, everyday life, work. I thought that, you know, I thought I was just going to grab a bag of money

Starting point is 01:32:33 for the rest of my life. I did. I still have these fucking thoughts, right? I still think, like, man, like, you know, I thought it was easy come, easy go, and I thought that it'd always be like that. And it proved true for a short period of time. But as far as, you know,

Starting point is 01:32:55 like I talked about my dad, the firefighter, And it's like, who wants to, it didn't serve me purpose. It's actually something that I still struggle with where I never, the work ethic that, you know, my father showed me through action stuff. But I wasn't, I wanted easy fast. I wanted, you know, I wanted everything without doing any work, right? I want to get in shape without going the gym, right? I want to, I want these things.

Starting point is 01:33:26 I don't want to earn them. And in turn, what it's cost me is, like, a lot of wasted time, a lot of, you know, it's been, it's, that's, that's the stuff that really that I think about and like why I'm trying to do things differently and why I try to like just, you know, focus in the present and like these little cliches, these little things that may seem sound corny or whatnot. When I think of the word corny, I check myself now because I'm like, Joe, your thinking was fucking ridiculous. Your thinking was warped.

Starting point is 01:33:57 your thinking was twisted, right? And when I have to remind myself that, you know, the fact that I'm able to do it and acknowledge it is great, but now I got to put it into action and, you know, the work ethic, the, just feeling like, all right, scheming, scamming, what's the next move? What's the next score? Right? Because like that right there, when I'm thinking like that, it doesn't feel good anymore, right? Because I know the truth.

Starting point is 01:34:27 and if I am getting like if the endorphins are kicking in if I'm like getting like high off that and like that feeling and that thinking I got problems you know what I mean that indictment's fucking is coming you know

Starting point is 01:34:41 and as we both know it doesn't get less they're not going to give me less than 111 months if I you know next time I go it's going to get worse you know what I mean and so it really doesn't matter whether Joe whether you know Joe comes from a good family whether Joe thinks that, you know, I'm a good guy at heart, you know what I mean? That right there is something that I have to constantly remind myself because, and it's scary

Starting point is 01:35:05 to think because, you know, they'll go off, if me or you go in front of the judge, if you went in front of the judge today, they're not thinking of being with the podcast. They're not thinking of being helping people, you know, spreading a message, like showing like that, like, you know, reform, showing that, you know, recovering from, like, you know, adversity and like bouncing back in like all these things that are like pivotal and like that like actually define who you are right and you've always been that but like it's it's it just builds that character and like you know maybe it's something that you need to realize and you need to believe in you right because other people see it right um when you're doing your thing and if you went in front

Starting point is 01:35:40 of a judge that judge is going to look at that paper and they're going to and you're going to be the person that like did that fed time you're going to be the person that for that crime and stuff like that you know, I'm 46 years old. I go in front of the judge for a driving offense. They're talking about in 2000 when I fucking, you know what I mean? Rob the Amundtruck or did 10 years. It's like, and I don't get to raise my hand or like I don't have a voice. I can't be like, here I am to the public defender because like, you know,

Starting point is 01:36:05 because all those times, because all that fantasy in my head about like those bags of money I was going to grab. It's like, you know, weighing the options. Like there's too many people relying and counting on me in that I've let down already that like, you know, like I don't want to do it's myself, but sometimes a lot of the time, you know, thank God I have the people that I can think of that, you know, they deserve so much better, you know. But yeah, I don't want to, I don't want to do that. And I'm sure, you know, what you're doing, like that's for the rest of our life. We go in front of that judge, you know, it's something to keep in mind.

Starting point is 01:36:35 I guess it's a healthy fare in a sense. What's your life look like now? What do you do now? So my life looks like today. I am in recovery. I learned about, you know, so they talk about sobriety, right? I didn't know that like, you know, I drink Bud Light. I'm 6-2, 220, right?

Starting point is 01:36:52 Like, I don't fall. I'm not a mess, right? If we can't have a conversation, I'm going home, right? So, you know, and I think I'm the life of the party, right? Like, and here I am, like, happy, go lucky, like, why would that be a problem, right? You know, alcoholic, that's someone that fucking drinks out of brown paper bag and stems outside a liquor store or whatever. Well, I found that Joe, another, you know, the.

Starting point is 01:37:13 like all these things that I would have loved to believe, right? Because they worked for me and they served me at the time. That wasn't the case, right? So when I was educated about it and it's like, bro, when I, this isn't a moral thing. Like, you know, it's hereditary and like it's a disease. And like when you put a drink in you, right? All bets are off.

Starting point is 01:37:31 The worst thing that can happen when you put a drink in you and I can walk outside and hit the liquor store and grab a pint of fireball right now. Right? I'll feel good, right? I'll drink it. I'll feel good for about a half hour if that. And what I know today is like, then I'll feel like a complete bag of shit

Starting point is 01:37:49 because it's not about hiding it from anyone else. It's about what I know that now it's on, right? Now, once I do that, I can't stop and I've proven it in the past, right? Because with someone like me, if I'm not failing, I'm not growing. And if I'm not willing to fucking fail and like sit with myself that I never was able to do it

Starting point is 01:38:07 until I was locked up. That's, that was the, that's what it came down to. Like, kid, you know, you don't have the balls, you don't have the courage, you don't have, you think you're the man, but really you're fucking,

Starting point is 01:38:17 you're proven to be a coward, like what you're doing isn't, you know what I mean? Like, you can't even sit with yourself, right? And who wants to show that side of? Who wants to be vulnerable, right? So the masks have to just keep coming.

Starting point is 01:38:29 When I learned about that in 2018, you know, I realized like it's so much more, like sobriety, like I can't put a drink or a substance, right? And it's not about labeling. It's like, you know, I can judge, justify all day long what I do when I do it like you know um but it's really what it comes down to

Starting point is 01:38:49 is like knowing you know being being educated and knowing what I do today and like that's even that I look back and it's like I'm so grateful for it in 2018 I learned about sobriety I learned and I learned that the phenomenon phenomenon of craving they talk about like when I put something in my system right um it's not in being an alcoholic and have an addicted personality being an addict calling it whatever you want right it really all those things those labels that we tell ourselves or at least i would in being from that you know that judgmental and that clicky and that fear living in fear and god forbid someone thinks this to me it's like bro you're the last person first of all to like whatever people are going to date they're going to think right but like to sit

Starting point is 01:39:29 there and not live in truth and not in in self negative you know that the negative affirmations rather than the positive ones and feeling shitty but how could you build any self-esteem how could you build any confidence when you're not taking care of yourself. All you're doing is pouring alcohol. You're taking a substance, whatever you're doing over the feelings and you're numbing yourself, right? There's no growth there, right? That's purgatory on earth.

Starting point is 01:39:53 And what I've found out, once I waved the white flag and I needed to be broke, I needed to fail that much pain. When the pain got greater, I say it's like a pendulum or like the laws of justice, you see. When the pain got greater than what this told me from when I was a kid, right, that scared kid, or what I thought that you may have thought, you know, negative that I may create or may true or not, it's really irrelevant. When the pain got greater than that, for me, that was like the game changer. That's when I was able to, all right, now, now we're like at square one.

Starting point is 01:40:26 Let's, where do we go from here? And with that being said, like, I look back and I'm grateful for that pain, right? Because, like, I needed to feel that and it needed to be greater than what I, what this told me and what I thought that you may have thought. And when it got greater, I was willing to like, all right, you know what, dude, I'm a fucking train wreck, right? At least fucking mentally, emotionally. I feel it like, and to wake up like that, like,

Starting point is 01:40:50 and having, you know, they talk about like not being afraid to die, being afraid to live, it's like, you know, people say that, you know, waking up and like wanting to, not wanting to show up for life, not wanting to, like, I'm not trying to, like, first of all, I'm not doing that to my family. I may feel like, dude, I don't, I don't want to feel like a lot. Like I'd rather be dead.

Starting point is 01:41:12 Like to have that idle thought, which like human beings do, right? Because like that's an emotion and like feeling. But it's a sad one. It's very heavy. And then, you know, to wake up like that every day and have no solution, not know what to do with those feelings and not, you know,

Starting point is 01:41:29 and then in turn being so loyal and so proud and so like, you know, loving your family so much. It's like, I will suffer, I will curl up, I will fucking feel like death for as long as I have to before I'll ever put them through that. But what you're doing is like, you're not changing nothing. And what you're doing is you're staying, you're suffering, right? They say like pain's inevitable and suffering is optional. So you're choosing to suffer, right? That's a choice.

Starting point is 01:41:59 You're choosing to suffer. And you're so fucking broken and so hurt that you actually have to fucking. manifest these fucking foolish thoughts of, you know, these egotistical thoughts that like, you're doing your family a favor by not doing that, right? Like, dude, you're fucking mental, bro. You know, maybe, like, go get some help. Maybe ask for help. Maybe, like, put down that, you know, humble yourself, put the ego away, you know, ask for help.

Starting point is 01:42:30 You know, say, like, dude, I can't do this on my own. Like, you know, stop being, like, part of instead of, like, you know, apart from and, and isolating and being, I don't want to carry that weight anymore. I don't want to, that's, to me, it's a burden, you know. That's never how it was supposed to be, you know, and thank God, you know, you know, someone else can carry that title now, you know what I mean? And I wouldn't, I wouldn't recommend that I suggest it, but like, I don't, I'm not that, I'm not that strong, nor do I want to be, you know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:42:58 Sometimes, like, I need another person to lift me up and help me up, help me out. And, you know, that's okay as well, you know, and like I said, the best part, what I've learned in, you know, first the sobriety and then if anyone knows this that have been familiar with it, I certainly didn't. I learned about it in 2018. I wrote that pink cloud, that wave for like three years. I ended up staying sober for another year and a half, but at that three year mark, you know, life had happened. And like Joe, that emotional, that mentally stunted emotionally stunted, you know, a teenager that's now, you know, dirty some years old, dirty some years old, doesn't know how to fucking regulate his emotions, can't handle this.

Starting point is 01:43:37 thing in life, right, that threw at him. And he has like essentially a nervous breakdown all like goes off the rails. And, you know, and then the ego by default has to kick in and like, I'm going to stay sober like, fuck you. Like no one's going to, you know, I'll show you. When I start saying I'll show you, I lose sight of what I'm doing because it's, it's not about, like I say, I don't, I need to, you know, just, you need to focus on yourself. so the recovery aspect

Starting point is 01:44:07 because sobriety in general if you're just sober they talk about a dry drunk when someone just stops putting alcohol or drugs in their system or something anything gambling I was a gambler bro right I lost so much that it fucking

Starting point is 01:44:19 I never had the urge again I was betting on cricket and fucking St. John's on my fucking honeymoon bro at three four in the morning I'm in paradise and I'm fucking I'm betting on cricket

Starting point is 01:44:30 just fucking flip of a coin and everything I touched I was losing you know so that that's my that's my personality that's like the impulsive like that's the addictive behavior anything to make me not have to fucking just sit and like and fail what I'm feeling um so the sobriety aspects if you're just if if you're anything like me you know if yeah that's great you put down a drink you put down a drug if it was only that easy um because they say like that's the drink

Starting point is 01:44:58 and the drug is someone's a solution you know or the gambling or whatever the case may be women whatever someone does to get outside of themselves women go shopping you know that's the solution that's the yeah that's exactly what that makes total sense what do you do if you're an alcoholic can addict yeah drink or put a substance in your system right any mind or mood altering substance that's the answer but that's not their you know that's the solution that's their solution it's just it's really their thinking is like it's so twisted you know like that's right yeah you put a drink or a drug but that's not that your real problem is you're thinking that that i was taught and uh that takes some work bro you know and um you know i'm certainly i i don't do it perfectly but what i do

Starting point is 01:45:42 what i i am grateful for in that it's taught me is like you know the recovery aspects i i have there's a lot of recovering to do right those 111 months that time that i was away that time that i you know when i went on that corner 15 or 16 and you know i started running on fair and consumed by and basing my decision choices on on that as opposed to like um you know form in any type of identity you know that's why i'm you know billy madison that's why like the bill the big kid which like we can laugh about but like it's at some point it's like you know it's time to grow up a little bit right we can still have fun but like when it's time you know it's time to grow up a little bit you know and um that right there is you know slow and steady and like you know progress not

Starting point is 01:46:31 perfection they talk about i know this and um as far as the recovery thing goes and anyone out there that's struggling or whatnot um because it's it's wild it's crazy out there um anyone that can relate or that this resonates with if if there was a reason i'm sure and i'm sure there's been plenty right when joe's having a bad day i joe's feeling off and you know like i said the white flag the white flag was waived. There's no going back. I'm never going to, I may, I'll do my best to try to think so, but I'll never have fun again, right? I've been there, done that. I did have some fun as a kid, right? Right, but those days are over. I'll never have fun again if I put something in my system for like, you know, because I know that if I do that, it's going to be because I'm emotionally

Starting point is 01:47:18 like, I can't handle something. I'm overwhelmed with life. Like, it's just, it's too much. And that's not an option anymore. So as far as a recovery, goes if there were like I say if there was a time when I could you know if if anyone had given me over the past six years a reason to like say fuck this these people are frauds they're full of shit they're phony like they did this they gave me bad information you know they they they um if I could do that I'm a human being right I'm no different than anyone else did be if if I could have done that I would have already done it right it doesn't feel good to think like that but I'm sure that like that is crossed my mind where like even subconsciously

Starting point is 01:48:03 I've been like give me a fucking reason to not have to fucking to not have to do this not have to you know so I can be like okay see like Joe got this and no one has in the past six years no one has we've been in prison right yeah we've been with good guys right um we can pride ourselves on being on being good guys and stand up guys that's that's great right that's always been in us though to begin with. We've also been with like the dredges society and like some real sick like ugly dark demons, right? Some people that um just don't belong fucking in society, right? And like this, as far as I'm concerned, like, listen, there's no coming back from. You know what I mean? Like there's, there's, you're just, it's a lost soul and, uh, I don't make the rules. You know what I mean?

Starting point is 01:48:47 That that's, that's, that's, I didn't make this shit up. You know, that's, that's just what it is. but as far as I'm you know people lifting you up and like encouraging you and wanting literally wanting you good for you wanting like to see you succeed wanted to see good things for you without any there's no agenda they're not looking for anything like what is that bro that shit to me it's like now it's like this void this fucking hole that's that's been there that I never fucking filled with anything but like more pollution and more fucking darkness now it's like wait a minute like that's why i say love trump's all right it's like oh like it may make me cringe or whatever but it's like there's something be said about it and then when you're able to give that back to another person

Starting point is 01:49:33 are you able to help another person it's like now it's like wait i'm turning into a human beam bro you know what I mean, like, you know, just in a person and form an identity and, like, in being useful, having a purpose, it goes back to what you said. Like, that, I guess it makes it all worth it where you said as that kid, did I have aspirations, dreams and like, did I have a career and know what I wanted to do? No, I didn't, but I can't say today about that. What I've learned through my pain, through my struggle, and true, you know, the trials and tribulations is that, you know, I want to get better so that I can be better and like do better for, you know, for the people I care about, for people in general, you know.

Starting point is 01:50:16 That right there is like the most fulfilling thing that no high, no score has ever made me more fulfilled and, you know, fed me that way, you know, and yeah, it's, and I love, you know, it's nice to talk about it, you know. It's heavy shit, it's like, but it's. It's therapeutic. Yeah, man. Yeah, just build my insurance after this, bro. Well, Joe, I appreciate you coming out here today to chat, man. Thank you, brother. Yes.

Starting point is 01:50:41 I'm glad you were able to get a lot off your chest today. You could always tell when someone has a lot built up. Yeah, I always do. Yeah. Well, definitely keep in touch, man. You know, next time I'm in Boston, I go there every few months. Oh, absolutely. I'll take you to dinner.

Starting point is 01:50:55 I'm going to bring you through Charles down. We'll hook up with Richie G. Yeah, yeah. Tommy G2, who does all the, you know, him, who does all the clips and stuff. I love those guys. Pursudeau Poppy. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:51:06 Well, they're doing big things too with Walberg and all that. Yeah, we're putting Boston on the map. Massachusetts for that matter. I'm putting Connecticut. I got Connecticut. You guys got Boston. Yeah. But yeah, safe travels back.

Starting point is 01:51:16 And if you ever back out this way, I got to introduce you to AJ too. 100%. Yeah, I would love to meet them. We'll get you some merch and all that too. Yes, I would love that. Thank you, my friend. Yeah, thank you, brother.

Locked In with Ian Bick - How My $1M Oxycontin Drug Empire Crumbled & Sent Me to Federal Prison | Joe Lawler

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