Locked In with Ian Bick - How Real Estate Fraud Sent a Mom to Federal Prison for Years | Portia Louder

Episode Date: May 15, 2025

Portia Louder shares how a real estate fraud scheme sent her to federal prison and how she started over after release. #RealEstateFraud #WhiteCollarCrime #FederalPrison #TrueCrime #LegalTroubles #JusticeSystem #CrimeAndPunishment #fraudexposed Thank you to LUCY for sponsoring today’s episode: Let’s level up your nicotine routine with Lucy.  Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code (IANBICK) to get 20% off your first order. Lucy has a 30-day refund policy if you change your mind.  Connect with Portia Louder: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/portialouder/?hl=en Website: https://portialouder.com/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 Growing Up Mormon in Utah 00:04:41 Overcoming Addiction and Parenting Challenges 00:09:28 Nicotine Pouches: A New Experience 00:14:38 Transition from Photography to Real Estate Business 00:19:18 Real Estate Appraisal Fraud Explained 00:23:54 Federal Investigation and Real Estate Troubles 00:28:28 Financial Struggles and Legal Battles Post-2008 00:33:19 Long-term Impact of Legal Struggles 00:37:52 Navigating the Legal System and Its Impact 00:42:24 Navigating Independence After Prison 00:47:00 The Emotional Family Struggles Before Sentencing 00:51:48 Blogging Controversies and Challenges in Prison 00:56:13 Life in a Federal Prison Camp: Truth vs. TV Depictions 01:02:00 Unexpected Bonds and Genuine Connections in Prison 01:05:40 Embracing Life After Prison 01:10:08 Life After Prison: Adjusting with Family and Career Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So whether you're pouring milk, melting of cheese, or just grabbing one more spoonful of yogurt. Keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk by Real California Farm Family. please. Portia, welcome to Lockton all the way from Utah to get here today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, isn't that like Mormon County in Utah? It's, yep. I've had a couple of Utah people on recently that were like Mormon and their story is very fascinating.

Yep, and that would be me as well. Oh, you grew up Mormon too? Yeah, I'm, yep. Oh, wow. They call it the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterty Saints, but yep, I'm a member of that church. So you grew up like no coffee? Our family was a little bit of, yes, initially, but I was pretty wild when it came pretty rebellious as far as the Mormon goes in my younger years. Well, before we hear more about all this,

I want to plug in your books that you brought me here today. If you want to tell the audience what these two books are, where they can find them and all that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I wrote Living Louder, which is my experience in prison. And then a couple years later, I wrote Born to Be Brave, which is more experiences since I got home. And I talk about the people that I've met, a lot of them who've been incarcerated, more men's prison experiences. The first one was my experience in prison with women. Good for you on two books. Most people can't even get out one when you're pumping them away. Thanks. That's awesome. So who did you grow up with in Utah? Who did I grow up with? Yeah, like mom, dad, siblings. Oh yeah, yeah. So I'm the oldest of seven children and I lived with my parents.

My father was a Vietnam vet, so he had pretty intense PTSD. He had received two purple hearts for gunshot wounds. And my mom was like a super hippie. And we grew up out in the country. And so, My mom didn't believe any rules or boundaries, so I grew up just playing and having fun outside. And then my teenagers is when I decided to get wild, I guess, you would say. What did she do for work? My mom was a photographer, and my father had side hustles, but they were also real estate investors. So that's kind of how I got into that. Oh, so they had enough money to support the family despite like that lifestyle?

Yes. My parents, I mean, they both had side businesses, and then we lived on the outskirts of a small town. so the expense wasn't, you know, exorbitant to live there. Did you guys struggle for money or? No, I would say we were middle class, so we always had enough. Were you close with your siblings? I always say I was like a gang leader because I was the oldest. And so, and because things were pretty chaotic, because there weren't boundaries or rules,

we ran pretty wild outside and I kind of ran the group. So I wasn't as close to him as I am now, but yeah. Aside from being a leader, how else would you describe yourself as a kid? Stubborn and determined, pretty rebellious. I struggled big time in my younger years with relationships, like thinking that I had to be with somebody, so codependent. I mean, I started my first business when I was 15 years old, so kind of always been an entrepreneur.

And also I ended up being, I got pregnant young, So I was a single mother and kind of had to navigate that. I guess just had to work hard, hard worker as well. Who do you think you got that from your mother or your father or maybe both? I think that my mother was and is one of the most compassionate people I've ever met. So she taught me to really love others and see the best in people. But my father, I'm more like my father. He's very stubborn and determined and hardworking.

Now a young Portia, did you want to go to college? Did you have bigger aspirations? What was kind of your mindset? that. It's funny that you ask because all I really wanted to do is have kids, which is what I ended up doing. I didn't think I would be the worker. I mean, I just didn't think that I would become who I am for sure. I just thought I'd get married and have kids, which I tried doing when I was young. And it just, I had other plans. There were other things that came for me. So how many kids do you have now? I have given birth to six kids. I raised five. I placed one for adoption. Six kids. Wow. It's crazy, huh? Wow. Big family. So it just got kind of passed down from your mom and dad too. Yeah, you know, I just remember thinking, I just want to be a mom. Funny story, when I was in high school, I recently showed my husband this. There's a yearbook of me, and you know how on the side they'll say, this is who so-and-so is going to become. And for me,

it said, Portia's going to end up going to prison. So I should have brought that. It was so crazy to me that just at such a young age, people saw the stubbornness in me. But yeah, I followed the path my mother did and started having kids really young. They actually had that option as who's the most likely to go to prison. No, I think that people just voted like it wasn't necessarily an option, but it was just something that people thought was funny and they threw it in there. Had you ever gotten in a legal trouble in high school or was it more just like, you know, wild parties, that type of thing. Yeah. No, I didn't get in legal trouble until this happened. How does that translate down to your kids? Like, are you more accepting if they have that type of attitude

because you lived that kind of lifestyle in high school, if they ever did when you were raising them? No, I was way so concerned that they would get into the trouble that I was. So I was pretty strict with them. But also I struggled with addiction that they didn't know about, and all of that came out later. So we were just talking about that because I brought my girls with me out here and just that I wish that I would have been more open with them

instead of so scared and trying to control and protect them. Why do you think you were scared? Because my life had been so hard. I just didn't want, I wanted more for them than, and I thought, you know, don't go get pregnant when you're 17. Like, don't, you know, figure out who you are. And I think I was probably hard on them because I was afraid they would make the choices I made. Do you wish your parents were harder on you and kind of like ran a tighter ship? No. I think what my parents taught me was that I could decide what my experiences meant to me, which really served me well when I got to prison. because people think you go to prison, you're a bad person, right? And I didn't accept that. And even being in prison, there were people that, I guess the whole group think, the way that people were acting, I was like, I'm not going to go that direction either. I got to decide for myself what my experiences mean to me. And I think my parents gave me that. So I'm grateful that they did that for me. I have made some changes in the way that I've lived my life in terms of boundaries and structure and things like that because it was chaotic. I think it was confusing because kids really aren't.

equipped to raise themselves, and we kind of did that. But I really look at it, especially after going to prison and see how much good I had. You know, there were a lot of people in prison that had much more difficult circumstances than me. So I'm grateful for what my parents did do, right, you know? I feel like that pertains even more so to women who go to prison that come from good backgrounds that see some of these other women there of how bad their situation is. And there's a lot of women there that have taken the fall for someone else or got roped in for the man and you feel or how domestic abuse or any of those things and a lot of the women that come on the show share that experience with us and it's it's a pretty crazy thought and a surreal experience to feel that yeah

it changed my life in such a good way to see the struggles that other people have i had no idea how fortunate I was. And I met women that I love and connect to in such an important way. It's completely, my whole life experience has shifted because of this experience. It was also the most painful, difficult thing I've done. I was away from my family for five years, and I had young children when I left. But yeah, I love the women I met, and they would drive me crazy all the time. So, yeah, it was life-changing. Did you graduate? school? I got a GED. So, yeah. So how old were you when you left the house officially? 17. 17. And that's when you had your first child? Yeah. I moved out, moved into a low-income apartment.

And this is what I thought. I just need to get married and everything will be okay. You know, that's all I need to do. And that pattern continued for me. I did. I married someone that was 10 years older than me, 28, and I was 18. And that one didn't work out. I think I knew him a month when we got married. And then we were divorced, and I ended up, I found out I was pregnant shortly after we got divorced. So it was a single mom with two kids. You just met my daughter out there, my oldest daughter. That was, I gave birth to her when I was 21. So I had two children.

And then I got pregnant again and ended up placing my son for adoption. So by the time I was 23, I'd already experienced some really difficult things. Ended up addicted to drugs at that point. And when I was about 26, I got sober. and then I started my photography business and married the man that I married to now. So I guess in some ways I had experienced things that some of the women I met in prison had, but I had a lot of support. So it was different.

How did you fall into addiction? After I placed my son for adoption, I just felt so empty inside. And I mean, I had used alcohol. I think I smoked cigarettes at that point. And then a cousin moved in with my parents. Actually, he got out of jail. My parents were the nice people, so they'd let anyone in the family move in, and he got out of jail and moved in. And I started using pain pills at first.

They were prescribed to me. Back then they just gave them to you, you know. And then when my cousin moved in, he was using methamphetamine. And I tried it for the first time and just became addicted to it. Just destroyed my life. Why stick to the old ways when there's something better? Lucy Breakers delivers 100% pure nicotine completely tobacco-free with a flavor experience. that puts you in control.

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And here comes to fine print, everyone. Lucy products are only for adults illegal age, and every order is age verified. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical. Now let's get back into today's episode. So your family wasn't unused to, the criminal justice system. You had family members that were involved in it in a way?

I wouldn't say that. My cousin was, my parents, like his parents said, you can't move in, and my parents were always willing to let somebody just come stay at the house. So they weren't really familiar with it, although I found out years later that my dad had gotten into some trouble when he was young and been in jail, but it wasn't something I grew up seeing. Like, I didn't have relatives other than this cousin, but I didn't know him that well. So. Once you started using, what happened to your hustle is your entrepreneurial spirit? Well, at this point, when I started using, I was a photographer and I worked for families and I didn't have, really wasn't actively involved. I was surviving. I had young children,

single mother. And when I started using drugs, I started hanging out with drug dealers and doing all the things you do when you're using street drugs, lying, cheating, stealing. And my life just got really, went to a lot of crappy places. At that point, I was visiting people in jail because most of people I was hanging out with were in jail. For me, because I had children, I remember coming home late one night, and my oldest son had been waiting for me. My parents were taking care of my kids, and he had been crying for hours waiting for me. And so when I walked in the house, my mom just looked at me and said, all this little kid cares about is you, Portia. How could you do this to him. And that night, I walked downstairs with my son, and I remember laying on the floor

sobbing and begging God. I just, I wasn't a religious person, but I was just like, please take this from me. I can't live like this anymore. And my little boy goes, Mom, why are you so sad? Mom, don't cry, you know. And I said, Jace, I'm such an ugly person. And he goes, no, Mom, you're so beautiful. Come look in the mirror, mom, you know. And that's when I decided I'll go to any length to get sober. And so I worked my way out of that. I went to 12-step meetings and just anything I could do to get clean. And then I met the man I'm married to now. And I mean, wouldn't it be great if that was a happy ever after a story, right, that we know things get worse again with, because I end up in prison. But that was in my 20s. And that's when I started my own photography company. And my business just grew. I'm a hard worker. So

I would say that was, I mean, I had a company when I was 15, and it did fairly well, and my parents always had side businesses, but my photography business became a real success in the community. You know, it's interesting that you cure one problem and then an even bigger one unfold, but in most people lives that first problem, like addiction, is the thing that gets them into trouble or death or just down a really negative path. Yeah. And for you, you were able to overcome that, but that still didn't kind of derail your journey. Well, I overcame it, I guess, to some degree, started building a new life and ended up having more children.

You'd met my other daughter out there because that's what I do. And then I had a back surgery and I relapsed. So addiction is a real problem for me because I'm not just addicted to drugs. I'm addicted to hustling. Like I like to hustle. And so when I use drugs, it changes my brain. Like at this point, sobriety is a big deal to me. I've been sober for 10 years since I walked into prison.

And I work in the recovery community because I need to stay sober. But when I use, I hustle too. And that's how that went. When you met your husband, that second husband, what was he doing for work? So he is very conservative. He had just graduated college. We were younger. Hadn't been married or had children or anything.

And he was a finance major. I mean, he worked at a bank, which ended up hurting him later, years later, because of my crimes. They connected it to him, but, yeah. So how does he fall for someone like you at that time? Oh, it's such a good question. Like, I asked, I still laugh at him all the time. The first time we went out, I said, hey, Chad, what scares you the most about me? And he's like, everything about you scares me, Portia.

Like, I guess I was interesting. I think he, just his life pretty simple, and he was, he says, you're still interesting. So you were different, yeah. And I mean, even now, after all these years, you're still different because you have a unique story and, you know, you can do cool stuff now with it, you know. It's interesting. Oh, thank you. I'd rather have a parent that's interesting like that. Like, my dad's lived a very interesting lifestyle. And now my kids, when I have kids one day, will eventually know about my life now, you know? Yeah. And just, I don't know, I feel like life's more interesting when you have those interesting people in your life. Yeah. Well, we have, my life has changed in the way I parent my children on it. is our highest value. So we talk openly about all things now. But I think for Chad, he just really

loves me. I mean, he stuck it out for five years while he's in prison, so he must. And I really love him. We've been through hard things together. So I guess I tricked him into marrying me somehow, and here we are, almost 28 years later. So how do you shift from photography to the business that would end up getting you into prison? So I was photographing like 200 weddings a year, which is a lot. when you consider engagements and bridles. I had employees, and I had two more children when Chad and I got married, so I had two middle children. I had a son I placed for adoption that I didn't know at that point,

and then I had two more babies 18 months apart and hired a nanny to take care of them. And I just felt completely overwhelmed with the company that I had. And about that time, 2004, 2005, I had back surgery, so I started to use prescription drugs again. And the real estate market was booming. It just, we bought a lot, built a home with the studio in it, and the lots behind the house that I was building were going up so fast that I went and locked some up and just figured I'd flip him, which I did and made good money doing it.

And then I just thought, you know, if it worked once, it'll work twice. And pretty soon I had a whole subdivision under contract, started building spec homes, and just jumped right in, yeah. So where does it go wrong? What happens? That seems very successful. Yeah, it sounds good, huh? Yeah, it sounds good.

That's what I thought. That's what everyone thought. I remember somebody showing me, first of all, I have these lots under contract, and you're familiar with hard money, I'm guessing. A little bit. Yeah, I don't know. Too much about real estate and all that. Yeah, well, it's just expensive cash. So if you have a lot that's worth a million dollars, a hard money lender might lend $800,000 on it, cash quick. So rather than going to the bank and filling out all the paperwork, they're lending not,

based on you, they're lending based on the property, but they're charging you a point a week, so it's gonna cost you on 800,000. I mean, and sometimes it could be more than that, it depends, and you're gonna pay an upfront percentage as well, but it could easily be $10,000 a week. Yeah. And you, so you make just the $10,000 payment every week?

Well, the goal is that you quickly refinance it, right? Like you want to buy this and then get it into some bank money so it's a lot cheaper, but that's not how, when. I had all of these lots under contract. At first I was able to flip in pretty quick, but then we started trying to build, you know, build homes and get construction loans, and they took a lot longer than I thought. So I'm trying to make these payments every month. And the other bad luck that I had, Porsche is a pretty unique name. We were talking about that, right? So I have a guy

reach out to me. He's probably about your age, an investor. And he said, hey, I heard you're a hard money lender, which means I would have been lending the cash. And there was a woman named Portia bunker who was lending cash on these types of deals. And I'm like, I'm not the Porsche. But we met because he thought for sure that I was, and I was confused by the whole thing. And then he showed me a home that was appraising for $5 million that I could buy for $2.5. And I was like, well, and he goes, and you can pull a million cash out of this house. I said, I don't understand if it's worth $2 million, why don't you just sell it for $5 million? He goes, well, it's not like that. Basically, the appraisal just gives you borrowing power. So the bank will lend.

and then you pull the cash and you're just like a bank. I mean, it's arbitrage. You lend at this price, make money on it. And I was, and at first I remember going home to Chad and I said, I would never do that. Like, why would you overborrow on the house? It doesn't make sense. And then all these hard money deals every month. And I was like, I guess I could use that money. So we closed our first deal. And I could, I mean, it was, that deal was just a great big nightmare. I started learning that there was a sweet spot for banks to lend. And so I started locking up and building these houses that fit the criteria to get high appraisals. So they were high appraisals, like higher than they were worth. You couldn't sell that house for $5 million.

Or I would get an appraisal on a house for $3 million that maybe I locked up for a million, and the bank would lend a million on top of the million that I paid for it. And the problem with that for me was, and it wasn't a problem for me, but later on it really made me mad. The banks were aware of it. Like I'd send over the price that I was paying and the appraisal, and they would do their own appraisal. But later on, the government said that was a fraud against the bank.

And I'm like, no, it's not. It's a conspiracy. We're all in on it, you know. And it's a real estate Ponzi scheme. But. So do you need a fake appraiser then to drive up that? You need someone in on it? Well, you have to go into the neighborhood and you have to create the comps. So if you had 10 houses and built them to the right square footage, you have to buy them cash kind of with a straw buyer, so to speak. like you've got to have comps that say the house is worth. And the only way to do that is to close the house that's at that price.

Does that make sense? A little bit. But it just seems like, so that first guy that said it was $5 million, it wasn't really worth $5 million in that house. It was only worth $2.5.5. Someone on me. That said it's $5 million. Right. Okay.

Yeah. So that's how it kind of put the idea in mind to see how it can all play out. Right. So now why are you borrowing from hard money lenders to begin with? Like, why did you experience? enough money to, I mean, I didn't have $800,000 to just go close on this property, but if I don't close now, I'm not going to get the deal. And in my mind, I'm going to make $300,000.

So I'll borrow the $800 and pay you $40,000 a month or whatever I have to pay because I'm going to close it a month later and then I'll make $100,000 on top of it. Like the way the math, it made sense as long as everything worked in the timeline that I needed it to, but it never did. But would you have even needed that money to begin with if you didn't buy all these lots up so quick? Like, yeah, it seemed like you were quick to buy the lots, but then I'd money to build. I was, I had to close when I closed or I wouldn't have gotten the price I did. Like,

I had to come in and close on those lots or somebody else was going to buy them. And they were moving fast. Like literally lots went from, they bumped from 60 to 120,000 in a couple months. So with that kind of movement, I'd lock it in and a month later, I'd have to close on it. And I didn't, you couldn't get a construction on that lap quick. So I would get the hard money lender to pay for it. Now, couldn't you have just said to the hard money lender, take the property, that's That's it. Have a wash and you walk away. Yeah, I could, except that I had 20% in it, too. So, like, I'm going to lose a couple hundred thousand in my own money, which was everything I had.

Like, I just, it was a home equity loan that I took. And I'm basically taking these huge risks with big returns, but when it goes south, it's, we lose everything. Had you consulted your husband because he was in finance about this? No. So there was a, yeah. I mean, Chad is so risk adverse. What happened was the first lot I put under contract, I think I put $2,500 down on it, and he got mad. He was like, you're crazy. You're going to lose that money.

So I went back over and got the deposit back, and then the lots bumped up like $100,000. And I was really ticked about that. And I was like, I'm not listening to you anymore. I'm going to do what I want to do. So were you ever able to successfully build and start selling, or did it just get so overwhelming with how much you are buying up? No, I was able to build and sell. But I was selling to investors that were just building. buying the houses to pull the cash out. Like I became that person in the community. A lot of

guys that were investing in currency and stock were looking for extra cash. So they came to me and said, all right, I need half a million dollars. If I buy this house for three million and the bank gives me half a million, they were basically, these houses were just built for these types of investments. Does there ever come a point where you were able to get even with the banks and the hard money lenders? Or does the thing collapse before you can do that? So what happened was, I was doing okay. Like I was on top of it, making the payments, and then I heard I was under federal investigation.

That was in about 2006, maybe 07. And when I went, I had talked to an attorney early on, and my attorney's like, this is brilliant. They called me back the next day. Maybe you should talk to a real estate attorney. I mapped it all out, and they thought that was, and he's like, you're just not that important. don't stress. And I said, but the title companies are saying things. And part of it was this other

Porschea Bunker was also under federal investigation and ended up indicted. And so they were like, I don't think it's you. I think that they're just confused by it. I also made realtors mad because I wasn't paying them a commission. So they started filing complaints with the division of real estate. And in the end, when the FBI showed up at my house by that time, basically told my husband, are you going to cooperate with us? Like there's a federal investigation. I'm talking to my attorneys and it probably would have been a good time for me to say, okay, I made some mistakes. How can I make it right?

That is not what I did. I was super belligerent. In fact, I even told the FBI they should go take a lie detector test. So that went over really well. What are the odds that there's two Porsches both and doing a legal kind of activity and, you know, one, she's the one that kind of brings heat to you and the same community in Utah. Facts. Bad luck.

I believe it if it was like New York, but Utah. Really bad luck. It was terrible. Wow. Yeah. And it was just, yeah. And at this point, I mean, I had three small children. I had my last baby, so I had three small children.

My two older children were out of the house. My husband is now quit his job and he's staying home with the kids because I had the photography business that I've kind of rolled out of and I've got this real estate that's a massive enterprise. And everything's hanging in the balance and I'm just like, I'm fighting to the death. There is no way I'm going to prison. And in my mind, I'm like, there's a lot of people doing worse things. The banks are aware of this. They're in on it. So where's the fraud?

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count on you. Firestone. Always dependable. since 1900. And I just continued to fight it. How much do you think greed played a factor in this? For sure. For sure. Like I was making a really good living as a photographer. I didn't need to get into real estate.

My addiction played a part in it. Greed played a part in it, definitely. But even not paying the realtors, like you might have been able to save yourself until everything kind of worked out financially. If you paid the realtors, no one was talking negatively about you. Because an investigation started somewhere.

Right, right. It's based off of someone complaining. It doesn't just pop out of thin air. It's truth. Yeah. Greed played a part of it. Arrogance played a big part in it. I mean, I had fought my way through so many hard things that I'm like, you know, I'm just going to keep going and who's going to stop me. How are you guys living? Did you have like the big house, vacations, the flashy cars?

Yeah, all the stupid things. So you were living kind of like above your means or just being flashy about it? Yeah. Brought heat on. Yeah. Things that I would never do again. Like it seems so foolish. But yeah, we were living dumb. How did you find out there is an investigation? Well, I heard when I went to title companies that there was an investigation. When I went to my real estate attorney, he said, nah, don't worry about it.

You're not that important. And then somebody from a title company sent over like a request for paperwork that the FBI had been in their office. So I said, no, there is something going on. And then the FBI showed up at her house. To arrest you or just to talk? No, just to talk. No, I was never arrested. I just walked into the courthouse when I was indicted.

But yeah. Must be nice. Were you arrested? Yeah. They said I could do what you did. But no, they showed up at, you know, five or six in the morning. The whole squad. I know.

I did a TikTok video on that I went to prison and was never arrested and I get so much heat for that. Oh, it must be nice, white privileged. I'm like, I know, for real. Once I got to prison, I realized that it was unique. My situation was unique. So when they showed up that day, that was. that was the first time your husband had found out there was an investigation. No, my husband knew.

Yeah, my husband knew, and we weren't doing great. As you can imagine, like he was frustrated and concerned. But when the FBI showed up, the two agents, I remember standing there with my three-month-old baby, and they looked at my husband and said, you're going to have to figure out if you're going to stand by her or work with us. Because if you stand by her, you could get wrapped up in a conspiracy. Like, they felt bad for my husband.

stuck with this girl. You might want to think about what you want to do. And I'm looking at him going, oh, hell no. Like, you did not just do that, you know? Like my whole life, I feel like my whole life is just crashing. Now, were your kids old enough at that point to understand what was going on? My kids were, I had a newborn, a five-year-old, and a seven-year-old. And it makes me sad because they grew up. This went on for years. Like, when they showed up versus, I wasn't even indicted until 2011. I remember Sadie, the gal out there that you met, coming home one day from school and saying, everybody says you're going to prison. And I told them just to shut up. They don't know what they're talking about. And I was like, oh, it was just rough. It was an ongoing thing. I ended up

spending every dollar we had to get attorneys and fight this. And we, and then I kept trying to make payments and keep things afloat. And my lawyer said, it's not going to matter. You're going, I mean, they're going to indict you either way. You're going to go to prison either way. There's no reason for you to try to keep things afloat. And so I just let houses go, quit trying to keep things going, and we moved into a townhome, and I just spent everything, including retirement, anything to fight. That was right in 2008, or was that closer to 2011? From 2008 to 2011, that's when I started letting homes go and things go and just kind of still trying to stand top. I mean, we had some money, but eventually after paying attorney's fees and everything else,

left with nothing. Could you have still retained all those properties if the market didn't crash in 2008? Yes. Yeah. And so you at least would have been able to make everything whole or that still wasn't possible? Well, make it whole. Like, I think the government does funny math, you know, like my restitution is $11 plus million. And that's based on loss. It's not money I got. I mean, you probably understand that. So would I have been able to pay back the money? I mean, if they wouldn't if the properties wouldn't have dropped, then I wouldn't have owed $11 million. So the properties would have been closer to worth what. Oh, yeah, because a lot of that came from there. They're saying the banks are defrauded of the properties, I'm guessing. Right. They're saying, yes, that's what

was a federal crime. Because the banks hold the titles. Yes. Okay. And I'm saying, but the banks were fully aware, because then, you know, I mean, you've watched the big short, I'm assuming, like, you know what happened after. The banks got bailed out and they were fully aware of what was happening, and they were part of the whole thing. That's why I think it's always sketchy with restitution cases and insurance, because a lot of the time in regards to like banks and other types of mortgage and real estate, there's insurance plays a factor and someone's getting reimbursed and someone's making money and it's kind of just extra money you're paying back.

Right. Absolutely. That's exactly what it is. Now, for me, where they really got me was this. Back then they had these stated income negative amortization loans, which is just you're paying like five, grand a month on a $3 million property, and it's going back every month. You're owing more money. And we had stated our income higher than it was. We said they were owner-occupied residents

when they weren't. Little things that most people never get in trouble for, but if they want to come in, it's a federal crime. And that's how they ended up getting me, because the way that I closed and pulling cash out, they couldn't really nail me on that. But when they got the misrepresentation on a loan app, and then it's a federal crime because money was wired. So it was money laundering, why you're fraud, mail fraud. What was your family, like your parents, maybe relatives saying while this was going on? And what was also your husband's family saying while this was going on? I mean, I'm pretty sure my husband's family was like, run, you know?

That's what I told him to go. I said, you should go. Like, why would you stay? I think my family, it's interesting. They were mad and hurt. And I mean, I had everybody involved in these deals. My whole family. Like a home in my mom's name.

home in Chad's name. Like I had everybody caught up in it. And so they were calling my son. Like, they called him into the grand jury. They called my mother into the grand jury. So it was awful for everybody. But the day that I was sentenced, in fact, yeah, my brother was indicted. My husband was indicted. I mean, it ended up being pretty tragic. Luckily, neither of them did any prison time. Like, they knew. They hit me with the leader organizer charge and it was accurate. But I think when it really came time for me to face the music and walk into a federal courthouse. Not only did my parents support me, but they believed in me. Like my dad, I remember the day that I walked out of the courthouse, my dad looked at me and he goes, you'll be fine. You were born to be brave, Portia, you'll do this.

And I know that sounds strange, but coming from my dad, it's like, my dad knows who I am. I'll get through this. So were the charges against them dropped or they just got no prison time out of this? My brother was charged. He got no prison time. Chad, they both picked up felonies. My husband is a felon, yeah, on a conspiracy charge, which really sucked because I came to prison and he had to try to rebuild. And I mean, he didn't have much, he knew what was going on. He lives in the house and that's a conspiracy charge. But he wasn't really involved in it. And, but because he had worked in banking, he worked in marketing and banking, nobody's going to hire him as a banker with a fraud charge, you know, so he had, he's gone into accounting, completely different industry.

So do you think if he had walked away from you in that moment, like got a divorce, he never would have got charged? Probably, yeah. Would you have blamed him if he didn't talk about? No, I wouldn't have blamed him. Why do you think he stayed? Because he loves me. Yeah. And he's glad he did. Like, we're really happy, but it was super painful. I think that's hopeful for people that do go through it. That's why these conversations are helpful because there are so many people that, and that will continue and have gone through it that kind of are lost in that and don't really see like the light at the end of that. There were some rough years. There really were. Chad told me that a year before I was sentenced.

I mean, I think it's interesting. People say, why are you still talking about this? I'm like it was 20 years of my life. From 2004, it's 2025. I just got probation. It's half my life. Yeah, it eats a lot. It's a chunk.

Yeah, it's an investment, right? Mine went from 2013 to I got off in 2022 probation. Right. That's a long period of time. It's a chunk, yeah. It's not like you're just going to walk away and like, oh, yeah. No. But I think what's remarkable about my husband is, he said, you know, a year before you walked into that courtroom, I made a decision that I would stand by you no matter what. And so Chad lives his life by decisions, not emotions. There were plenty of times that he was really angry and hurt. But because he had made that decision, we have a family together and he said, I will stand by her no matter what. What was really scary and we should probably get into was that,

I planned to go to trial. Like I literally was at the gate of trial in 2014 and both of us were going to go to trial. And I said, well, if all else fails, I'll fall on the sword and take the heat for sure, you know. But my thing was, I am going to present that the banks were fully aware. It's not a fraud against the bank if the bank knows what it's doing, right? And in 2014, we were standing in the courtroom and in the courtroom next stars,

and this is unusual. It's a federal courthouse. The marshal shot a guy on his first day in trial. And the marshals come running through our courtroom. We hear gunshots. The courtroom gets locked down. But somehow I walked out of the front of the federal courthouse in Salt Lake City with the gurney of the guy that got shot

and the news was all waiting there. The guy ended up dying. And when the news comes running up to me and asks me what happened, I said, well, the U.S. marshal shot. a guy in the courtroom next to ours eight times and killed him. And then my husband comes out and he sees me standing there with the news all around me and he goes, what are you doing? Like, we're ready to go to trial in three weeks. And so he grabs me and we get in the car. And as we're driving, my lawyer calls and says, you were just on the 12 noon news. What were you thinking? You have made everybody

mad. I mean, the FTC wanted to control the narrative. What were you thinking? And I said, well, I'm mad too. We're all mad. And she goes, it doesn't. work like that. So the next day, they revoked my pretrial release. Oh, they sent you, wow. They sent me into the county jail and they kept me in a suicide cell for three weeks. Like I was, and then they put me on a plane and shipped me to Perump, Nevada, to have a mental evaluation and said I wasn't competent to stand trial. And then they sent me to Seattle CTAC. And I sat there for 30 days. They did the mental evaluation, said that I was competent to stand trial, sent me back to perum for another three weeks and then sent me back to Utah. So I spent three months being transferred

around. And I mean, they literally, we went to the courthouse. My lawyer said, they want to see you tomorrow in the courtroom, revoke my pretrial, send me to jail. My husband doesn't even know where I'm at. He has to call the attorney and try to figure out where she is. And then they transfer me around. And when I get back and I go to the federal courthouse, the lawyer says, well, we need to, you know, she needs to get back out. She's going to trial. And he goes, oh, no, we're keeping her locked up. And I said, well, what's the reason? They said, you're a danger to yourself or others. And my lawyer, I said, well, if I plead guilty today, then what happens? We'll let you out today. So I pled guilty out of those conditions and got out that day. And I was mad because I didn't want to plead guilty,

but I was guilty. So it's really, like, and it's so fortunate that that happened. This was confusing for me. It made me really angry and I had to make peace with it because in my mind, it was illegal what they did. It was. illegal for them to hold me in those conditions until I pled guilty and to take my guilty plea out of those conditions. But me pleading guilty was the best thing I could have done because I would have been given 20 years. And so, I mean, my husband, we both would have been locked up. So it saved me, but it was wrong. And so that was hard for me to reconcile. I mean, that's what they do with the bail system. I know. Across the country. I know. It's crazy. It is crazy.

They push people to take plea deals because it's so miserable in there. Right. But having not been involved with the system and not understanding it. I mean, I remember even my probation officer or pretrial officer at that point. He goes, I've never seen anything like that. Like if she's, if she's a danger to herself or others, but if she pleads guilty, she's not. That's confusing. You know, it was just frustrating. So when I got out, I tried to revoke my guilty plea. And then that made him super mad. I mean, my lawyer fired me. Everybody was so mad at me by the time I walked in to be sentenced. The judge looks at me and he's like, I wish I could give her more. I was facing zero to seven and they maxed me out.

At seven years? Yeah. What was your first conversation with your kids like when you got out that first time after those three months? Well, it was devastating for everybody. My kids were really confused by it. I was really traumatized, to be honest with you. Like, I was really traumatized. I mean, you know what it's like to go on Conair, right?

I mean, Conair, Conair, Conair, Conair, never having been in any jail at all and they're holding me in isolation cells. And I'm like pushing the emergency button and saying, I need to talk to my attorney and they're like, screw you. You know, who cares? You're a nobody. It was just bad. They did take my clothes through me in a suicide cell. I pounded. I was mad.

Like, the whole thing was bad. It was really bad, yeah. So when I got home, I don't know. It wasn't, it was confusing. My kids were confused. Did you have conversations with them over the prison phone in those three months? Or did you kind of want to shut everyone out to avoid that? I kind of shut everybody out.

I do remember when I got home, my son, Jackson came in one morning and he goes, hey, mom. And I said, yeah. And he goes, I want to get a, I want to do a paper route. And I said, why do you want to do a paper route? But he goes, well, because then I can save money and bail you out if they put you back in jail, you know? And I'm looking at, I'm going, kids shouldn't have to think that way. It was just sad. It was just sad for my kids. It was sad for me. I think the reality that I'm going to prison. Like I had been in such denial. I'm like, I'm not going to prison. I'm not leaving my family. It's not happening. But when they had the power to lock me up like that. It was like, yeah, I'm going to prison and that was painful.

Do you feel like you kind of altered your kid's childhood because of the situation? Absolutely. I mean, they went five years without a mother during really important years of their life. Even before that, they grew up. Their whole lives were dealing with FBI. Yeah. Do you think that makes them tougher for the better now? Or do you think that leaves them in a worse position because of the trauma from that? I think that my children are extremely compassionate and see the world through a lens that I appreciate because of their experiences, but it was painful to get there. I think they're better off for it. But I think that in large part is because I made the choice to own it. I got to a place in prison where I was like, okay, I got to start to build something new and we're going to start with truth.

So I looked at my kids and said, I did this, not the government, not the FBI, not that judge, not your principal that you're pissed off at because my son's principal, my son dropped a vape in class, right? And the principal goes, Jackson, I don't want you to turn out like your mother. And so Jackson told him to F off. And he was telling me about this at a prison visit. And I looked at him, I go, Jackson, I don't want you to turn out like me either. I don't want you to end up in prison. And then I said, it's not him, Jacks, it's me. You got to be mad at me. I hurt you. And so I think when we, and Sadie wouldn't talk to me for two years. Like I wrote her letters and she wouldn't even take read the letters. They were really hurt. They were hurt. And it took time. I think people get out of prison and they think, oh, now my kids, you know, no, your kids have been hurt. My kids were hurt for years before I went to prison and then when I went to prison. And what I value the most, I've been home five years, they trust me now. I show up when I say I will and they trust me. But that takes time. Yeah, and a lot of guests that come on the show don't even have relationships with their kids. So I think it's a very full circle moment to see the way they interact with you.

you could go upstairs to our prison salad, show them all those items and take a picture there. And that's where you see like the healing and kind of like the growth aspect of it, which is really impressive to see. I'm glad that worked out for you. I love them so much. I fought hard to get myself right and to take ownership of this and move on because of my children. Did your situation, your husband's situation affect them getting into colleges or applying for credit or car loans or college loans? I think a lot of people are curious about that. Yeah.

No, but I think my kids are independent. They had to be. Our oldest son went to college, graduated while I was gone. Shelby got herself into school and while I was gone. They've all just navigated that and had to be very independent on their own. So I'm super public about, I mean, I've written two books. I'm pretty public about it. You're on TikTok.

I'm on TikTok. I've been on the news in Utah, you know, both for the crime and since talking about my experiences. And so my children are used to that. I speak pretty regularly at different events. And so they're used to that. I have just decided to claim it the same way that you have. And my kids have, I mean, people really, I guess, think highly of my children for handling it the way they have and my husband. Yeah, you get your power back when you claim it. I remember those four years after prison. I didn't talk about it to anyone. Yeah. Didn't share with anyone was embarrassed dating all of that. You know, jobs. I was a guy at work where they're like, that's a guy that went to prison, you know? Yeah. And then when you talk about it, what can they say at that point? They can't whisper about you. Yeah. I mean, I guess they could, but it's not negative, you know. Yeah, it's freedom. It really is freedom. When you're hiding from it, I figured if they're going to say something, I'm going to say something too. Like, why hide? I have friends that I met in prison that have come home and done really well and decided, you know, they're not going to talk about that. And that's okay, too. But for you. But for you.

me definitely, like 20 years of my life, I'm going to talk about it. And the other thing is, like, it really improved my life for the better. Why would I come home and hide from that? I mean, if you go to college for four years and your life changes, you're not going to pretend you didn't go. I think I learned more four years in prison than a lot of people do. Four years

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It was such a shock. I knew, I don't know, anyone that's been in the courtroom, I think can feel this. Like, the courtroom is a very sterile place. It's like, I walked in and I could feel the way. weight of what was going to happen that day. And I remember standing, I sat down and I looked back at my husband and my children and immediately just felt a level of sorrow I never want to feel again. Like, how could I have done this? How could I have brought us here? And I also felt this feeling of,

I knew that it was going to be a long time before we were back together again the way that we had been. The judge gave me a chance to get up and apologize and do my thing, which I did. and I remember he said, Ms. Lodder, I'm sentencing you to 84 months in federal prison, which is seven years. You'll be a mother again someday. And I remember looking at him and thinking, oh, no, you didn't. Like, you are not taken away. Like, you do not do that. You don't get to decide when and if I'm a mother.

Like, you might be able to separate me from my children, but I'm still a mother. And I turned around and looked at Chad. And then the judge said, I want the U.S. Marshals to take her into custody today, which is unusual for a white collar charge, right? Yeah, normally you could self-surrender. Yeah, it would have been. And so, and even the prosecutor got up and said, we're not asking for that. Like, we want to give her time, you know, and he's like, no, I want the marshal. And my husband stood up.

My lawyer's trying to argue with the judge. And he was crying. Our youngest daughter was seven years old, and he handed her to Shelby, our oldest daughter. And he said, Your Honor, please don't do that to her. He said, please give her time to say goodbye to our family. She's going to need that to get through this. and I remember looking back at Chad and I thought oh we're going to get through this together honey like we got this and the judge said all right I'll give her eight weeks and I thought you were better

than the lawyers I hired whenever you know that was powerful and when we left that day our oldest daughter Shelby took the younger ones with her and I remember I couldn't even talk for a couple hours like we were driving home and I was like how could I have done this it just shocked me that I and I thought, what a fool. How could I have been such a fool to trade everything important? My family, my children, the time that I had for money just became so clear that I had been tricked, you know. Had your husband already got sentenced yet? Nope.

No, so I got eight weeks to say goodbye. Three months later, well, went home. I remember just looking at my children watching him sleep. and wondering how I, you know, how am I going to do this? And then eight weeks later, Chad drove me to Dublin, California, 14 hours away because there's not federal prisons in Utah. And so I said goodbye to my children. And we knew that Chad's sentencing would be three weeks later.

Chad wasn't, hadn't pled guilty yet. Even when I was sentenced, he hadn't pled guilty yet. And he really didn't want to plead guilty, you know, because and I remember the day actually we came home and Sadie said but mom what about dad are they going to put dad in prison too and I said no Sadie dad's not going to prison she goes I don't believe anything you say anymore which is so valid right like why would she I told her everything would be okay and it wasn't and I went to the to Chad's attorney's office the next day and I said you have to plead guilty, Chad, like, you have to, you have to, because they had promised that if he pled guilty,

they wouldn't put him in prison at the same time as me. If he went to trial and he lost, they were blocking us both up at the same time and we had children to take care of. I said, and he just, he started to cry and he goes, it's not what I want to do. And I said, but you have to. It's for our children. And so he pled guilty. And then they sentenced him three months after I went to prison and they gave him home confinement and he didn't do time. So did he end up getting a new job to support the family? It was really tough. We had nothing, like to the point where, and I get nothing is relative because there's people in prison that really had nothing. But a neighbor let him move into the basement for a while with the kids, and he went to work for 12, 13 bucks an hour and worked his way

back up. Yeah. Sucked. What was your last conversation with him before you got out of the car to go through the doors to prison? I remember, Chad's like, I don't know how I'm going to live without you, you know? I don't know how I'm going to do that. And we were eating breakfast and I still had a couple hours before I needed to self-surrender. And I was anxious. And I said, you just need to take me now. We just need to go. We just need to get going with this. It'll be okay. And so he dropped me off and walked in. And you know, it's pretty unceremonious. I mean, they're like, all right, bye. Strip search you and hand just some new clothes. But as soon as he walked away, I felt the weight of what just how I walked into an FCI. I think you went to an FCI too. Yeah, except my bond was revoked.

Oh, okay. So for me it was FCI is as high as security as women have, you know, so it was a thousand women in FCI Dublin and I turned around and Chad was gone and I went, why didn't I take that extra hour? Like what was I thinking? I had another hour and it just became really clear to me. I remember they put me an A&O with a bunkey and I was devastated. I was so brokenhearted. I couldn't even breathe. I couldn't see how I was going to do seven years away from my children. All I could see was their faces. And my bunky kept saying, hey, you got to get up. Like, they're going to put you in a suicide cell because I wouldn't get off the cell. Like, I, off the bunk. I'm just in the bunk and I'm brokenhearted, won't eat nothing. And she's like, well, you got to go, you got to get

out of here. I said, go away. People ask, I don't know about you, but they'll ask, like, were you scared? And I say, fear would have been a level up. Like, I was so broken heart of what you're going to do, you know? Go ahead. hit me, I don't care. Like, I was so broken-hearted. And after three days, I finally go out of the cell into the day room, and I sit down next to a girl named Bubbles. And Bubbles is really good at watching TV. Like, you know, right? She doesn't even, and I'm sitting there crying going, she looks over at me, and she goes, just keep breathing, you'll be okay. Looks back at the TV. It's okay, baby, just keep breathing. I'm like, it's never going to be okay, Bubbles, you know?

But the thing that surprised me was the kindness of the women. It's like, she's like, we've all been through it. You'll be okay. And to me, that was unexpected that people were so kind. Did it help to realize that those first three months and when you got your bond first revoked were completely different than what your real prison sentence would be like? I'm actually grateful that I got that time because in a way, like it wasn't such a shock to me, right? like going to prisons way better than that. But I didn't, the circumstances weren't as important to me as what was going on inside my heart.

Like the devastation. You feel the weight of your prison sentence. I don't know what your sentence was, but a seven-year prison sentence, like I felt the weight of that when I walked in. And so put me in the shoe, whatever. I mean, the circumstances were a lot better in prison than the county jail time or the shoe time. I ended up doing more shoe time later in because I can. So when I got to prison, I was still really mad, you know. It took me a few years to quit blaming everybody else.

But so I was writing about the prison. And they hated that. And they knew that I had started blogging before I went and people were following. And because, again, I was on the news. So I thought, what do I have to lose? They're going to talk about it. I'm going to talk about it. So I started talking about it.

And so I blogged right as I walked in as soon as I got there because you can send emails home and my husband would post it. And pretty soon, lieutenants are calling me over every time I post something because they don't like what I'm posting. I'm either posting about a girlfriend or a fight or something that makes them look bad. And then the lieutenant one day he goes, you're going to make your time harder and yourself louder if you keep blogging like that. I said, that sounded like a threat. I don't think it was, was it? And he looks at me, he's like, who the hell do you think you are?

It was so funny. My boss, she's like, they can't threaten you like that. And I said, oh, they're threatening me. And so I had only been there about a year and they called me. He called me over one day and he goes, do you like it here louder at my office? I said, I don't mind it. You guys have good air conditioning. There's a bathroom I can use. That made him mad, you know. And he goes, well, you might like it better in the shoe. I said, if you don't like it, you can open the door and let me out. And he's like, yeah, you're going to the shoe. So they took me to the shoe. And I spent three months there. Or no, no, I spent three weeks there that time. And but I didn't know my husband was pretty concerned. So he flew out because all of a sudden I'm not messaging or anything flies out. And so they let me go visit him. And he goes, what's going to ship me? And I go, they're going to ship you for what? And I go for blogging, he goes, what's the big deal? And I go, they don't like it. Well, come to find out, like that prison had all kinds of problems. It's been shut down now. So that was the one I think where they had the warden or the administration hooking up with the inmates or something like that.

In fact, my counselor has been indicted now. And so that was one of the things that they did to ship me is they tried to show that it was an inappropriate relationship, which it totally wasn't because I'm totally married and I'm not going to let any officer mess with me like that. I never had a problem with that. But the FBI has reached out to me and interviewed me in regards to my counselor. And so of his attorneys. And, you know, it's an interesting thing when it comes to. that whole drama because there are women in prison who will absolutely try to like get an officer caught up like they'll try to how you know mess with him because they want to sue

the BOP and there were women all the time kind of taking their clothes off and trying to be provocative and I get it like the officer should not they should disregard all of that but it's not the best environment for all of that so I never saw that happen with my counselor and he was never inappropriate with me. And then there's also a lot of drama. I mean, the women would write cop outs for different things to try to manage things in there. I'll tell you what, the most intense real estate deal I ever did. Well, two of them was done in prison. I don't know about you guys, but did you ever buy your way out of a cell or anything like that? Yeah, well, you had to pay off the orderly, the head orderly who had the counselor's ear. So you would give him like a hundred bucks

and then the next day your bunk mates change. But tell us about it. Yeah, you, it was different. So at one point they decided to switch the units from one side to the other and I mean that was a big to do because there's people that have done 10 years in their bed right in their cell so you try you're shaking things up when you try to move things around like that so we were lined up outside the counselor's office and I remember me and the two girls that wanted to be put in the same cell it was a nice cell in the corner right it was a nice one with a good window and everything and so we go into his office and I was like making our case and everybody he's outside there and my little, my bunkey, she looks over at me. She goes, she goes, they can read lips. They'll know what we're trying to do. People outside. And I'm like, what the hell? So I just, yeah, I made my case and we actually got our cell and so it worked out. But the other thing that happened later on was me and a couple of my roommates had a really good cell. And then 17 girls moved across the hall that were really loud and obnoxious. So we wanted to move down the hall to a different sell at the end. And so we went down and my roommate said, hey, I'll put 300 bucks on your

books if you'll swap us. Which is totally, you're not supposed to do to, but all that stuff happens. Now, while you were there, Orange and New Black came out. Were your kids watching that at all? Probably. It made me mad, honestly, like, because I thought, that's, I mean, it's not accurate. It was a camp that she went to. And I'm like, you're making it sound different. But I don't know about you and you watch prison shows. A lot of times, I'm like, nah, that's not how it goes down. Did you watch the show after when you got out? I haven't watched it yet. You should watch it.

Should I? Yeah, it's interesting. I've seen a couple of things with it. There's some, the first couple of seasons are pretty kind of accurate, but just like the contraband and the guards and all of that. But then it gets a little bit far-fetched. But there's not really many TV shows that accurately depict federal prison, like with the bunks and like how there's not really cells and in the lower security, like a camp.

She was at a camp, and that also. Because I'm like, she's trying to make it sound hardcore, but the camp is not hardcore. You've done time at both, right? And I was behind a fence for four years, so it just kind of got on my last nerve a little bit about it. Did you ever make it down to the camp? The last seven months in my prison sentence, I went to a camp. Oh, at that point, why even bothers to you a camp? Yeah.

I mean, I was low security, but they put a management variable on me because I was blogging. So they kept me locked up in a higher security prison. Did your kids come and visit you at all? Not a lot, about once a year. Yeah. What was that experience like in there with them? I remember my first visit, and I remember my co-worker, she came in and she's like, hey, louder, I know you've got to visit today.

Hey, it's going to feel great. You're going to feel like yourself again for just a minute. But when they leave, they're going to take that piece of you with them. You'd be prepared for that's going to hurt, and you can talk to me about it if you need to. And, you know, my husband came out with the kids. My youngest daughter was seven, and she's sitting on my lap, and we're all together, and I felt like myself again. And then three days later, inmates to the left, families to the right,

and my seven-year-old starts to cry. And then my husband starts to cry, and they walk out. And I thought I was going to throw up and die. And I waited an hour to be strip searched, and then I went back to my cell, and I just laid on my bunk, and I sobbed like a little baby. I was so brokenhearted. And my bunky had been in visiting that day,

helping with the kids and stuff. And she came in, and she put her arms around me. She goes, hey, I can't imagine how much this hurt. She goes, you should know this. I saw the way they look at you. You're their world. They love you so much. It's like, you'll be okay.

And I just, it took me weeks to recover. Like, I couldn't have regular visits. It was too heartbreaking for me. Would it have been better looking back on it now to have no visits? I think it was good the way it went for me. Like, I saw women that lived closer to family that got regular visits. And I think that I needed it the way that it went. Like, I thought sometimes it would be better to have no visits.

but I think it was part of that growth process for me, like to make things right to my children, to be able to be honest with them. And each time I was in a different place and so I was able to stay connected to them in a healthy way. Now, you were telling me before we started about your little hustle you developed, you were making some prison food in there.

Oh, yeah. Well, we have a lot of time in there, you know. So I perfected the prison cake. I don't know if you guys made the cookie, like break down the cookies, add a pudding cup, about a half a can of soda because it helps the cookies rise and then bake it in the microwave and it's usually about nine and a half minutes. And then like you take a Hershey's chocolate bar,

melt it down a little bit and make a frosting. And it was good. I taught classes in there on that prison cake. It's on YouTube if you want to find it. But yeah. And would you sell that too or it was just for you guys to eat? No, no. See, I was fortunate because I had money or I mean my family helped me I had a sister that I had money on my books to buy what I needed. So I didn't really ever hustle like that. Honestly, like, I could see when I got to prison that it didn't, like, money became a lot less important to me. It was like meaning. I found ways to kind of fill my soul. I needed to find a new purpose. I was 43 when I went to prison. Like, it felt like a death to me, leaving my children. It just felt like a death. And I had to go much deeper than money.

I know that a lot of people were hustling. They have the stores and they double their money, and I saw people do that. But I worked in reentry and just helped women prepare to come home. And I became a leader in a program that I did there. And really... This is a Bose moment. Your 10 boring blocks from home until the beat drops in Bose clarity. And the baseline transforms boring into maybe the best part of your day.

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I kind of rebuilt my character and came home a different person. Yeah, you know, back to the microwaves for a second. Growing up as a kid, you're used to a microwave 30 seconds, two minutes tops. Your parents are always yelling. You don't put it in too long. Then you go to prison and these microwaves do not stop running. Oh, yeah. You see 20, 30, 40 minutes out of here. People hog the microwave. Oh, yeah, yeah. I got up in the morning. I would get up at like six in the morning, five, and six and make prison cakes all morning for the weekend because people would be having parties. And I'm like, yeah. I mean, I just did it because I loved the women and I would make him for him. But yeah, I was, I was really making a lot of prison cakes for a while.

What would you say was the most surprising thing you realized about prison that you never would have known had you not experienced it yourself? Yeah, I think the most surprising thing was that there was genuine connection there. Like, everybody makes it sound so hardcore. And there's some crazy things that happen that are like you're sitting in the chow hall and some little tiny thing. A girl that weighs 120 pounds comes in and hits an officer over the head with a great big lunch tray and the whole room erupts and you're just like, okay, that just happened, you know. But mostly, I think, the genuine connection. Like, you don't have, we did not have cell phones. I know that the men hustle and do things that women don't, but we didn't have cell phones.

And so the genuine connection. Like, I missed that when I got out of prison. And that surprised me. I didn't expect. And when I see things on TV, I'm like, you guys aren't showing all the little moments. I don't know about you guys, but we supported each other through hard things. Like somebody's going through something and we had each other's back. And that surprised me.

Yeah, I feel like that's not there in the men's. Maybe certain communities in the men's, but for the most part, it's every man for himself. Yeah, even the ones that look as if they're together, it's still when it's a fan. Yeah. It's really solo. But from all the women I speak to. and I think that's also accurately portrayed on Orange as a New Black is that it's very family-oriented and they have their back and everything.

And I wonder why that is. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think connection for women. And I also think the heartbreak of being away from your children drives us in a different way. And, yeah, I don't know. What surprised me the most was how many really good people there are in prison. there's a lot of really good people that just made some mistakes.

I had been in the real estate market. I mean, there's some cutthroat people in the real estate market, you know, and some of my best friends I met in prison. So just some really solid people that I totally trust. Now, you were mentioning before about rehabilitation. Do you think that prison helped rehabilitate you and teach you things that you wouldn't have gotten before out of your life had you not went to prison? I think that prison might be one of the best.

things that ever happened to me. It absolutely changed my life for the better. The way I connect to others, how authentic I am, my integrity is a lot more important to me. I value my time with my family and just the way I see the world. I think that I needed it too because I'm an addict. Like that gave me years of sobriety where I wasn't using anything, right? No pills, no this, know that and I've stayed sober and focused on that and that's become a superpower for me. It made me appreciate my parents and the way that I was raised and I read a lot. I mean, I probably read 12 hours a day. I exercised a lot. I started having kids when I was 17. I mean, in a way, I finally grew up when I got to prison. You know, I had that time to myself. It was like

the best, most painful thing I've ever done to go to prison. How much time did you end up serving? on seven years. About five. Yeah. What were some of the challenges upon getting out? Well, I felt disconnected. Like when people ask what changed the most while you were out, I'm like, I did.

I changed the most, you know? I get phones and everything else, but like the whole world looks different to me because I'm different. I mean, I felt insecure. Like, I just felt insecure, and that wasn't something I was used to. I didn't, I felt, different, like even things that I used to be good at. I was a photographer for years. I went to

work as a photographer and I just felt nervous. And I think it was difficult because my children were used to me interacting with them in a certain way. I had money and I was this and that. And I came home and I was like really a lot more conservative. Surprisingly, like prison made me a more conservative person. And so that was difficult. And then earning their trust back. Yeah. Also like I couldn't even sleep with my husband. I'm like, you sit on the couch. Like, I'm used to just sleeping in a bunk. Like I don't even, and then the silence, I was like, it is so quiet here because I'm used to noise and the connection. When I got to the halfway house, I sat on a chair like this and they just sat there feeling so weird. And this young guy walks up to me, he goes,

are you okay? And I said, no, I feel so strange. I said, I just want to go back to prison. And he goes, you'll be okay. He's like, I saw your husband and your daughter. They seem really nice. And I said, no, I feel weird. And he goes, you know what surprised me the most about prison? And I go, what? And he goes, that mayonnaise made everything taste better. It really does. I would put that in my ramen noodles and everything chips. Yeah, you walk around with a bottle of manhaze.

And all of a sudden, I just started to laugh. And I thought, he gets it. I need to find people that get it. Like, I can't just pretend this experience didn't happen. And that's when I knew, I got to embrace this. If I come home and try to pretend five years just didn't happen, I'm going to lose myself in this. Like, I got to figure out who I am going forward with prison in it. No, I feel like men who have kids.

these men that have been to prison, there's, you know, among the kids' friends or the kids they date, there's always like, oh, his dad, her dad went to prison. This is really bad. Is it like that when the mom went to prison? Is that kind of like the rumblings in a negative way? I mean, we were fortunate. I, you know, I'm a member, you call it the Mormon Church, of Jesus Christ of Lattery sense, a nickname, the Mormon nickname, but I'm fine with both. But our community is really supportive. Like people, even when I got to prison officers would say, what's it like to be a Mormon and go to prison? I'm like really good. People totally back us up. Like we got a solid community. And so my kids had friends and people

that loved them. My best friend came out to visit me in prison and took my whole family on vacation. It took, like we had a neighbor that let my husband move in there, rent free for a while. Like we have people that paid plane tickets for my husband and kids to come out and see us. We just were very supported. And so, but I think it was hard for my kids. I remember Sadie saying, When they came out to visit one time, she goes, Mom, it just sucks. She goes, I'm okay that we don't have anything. Like, I'm okay financially that we lost everything. She goes, I guess it's just hard living in a community where nobody else can really relate to that, you know?

Not on top of that, besides the fact that financially, like even coming out to see me is a huge burden. On top of that, they don't have any friends with parents in prison. Like, my kids didn't. In the community, we lived in a pretty high-end community. And my older daughter, Shelby really took care of the younger kids. like she was really there. My kids really bonded. Since I got home from prison, I've been able to, I've watched my kids support other people going through that, which is really cool.

How long did it take to finally feel like you're on your feet again getting somewhere in life? I mean, I recently talked to a group of people that were coming home from prison online, and they said, well, how did you do it? How did you do it? I said, I just kept focusing on my own integrity and taking the next step. I told you when I came home I went to work in drug treatment for 13 bucks an hour and I was working gravest but I wrote my first book too and the girls loved the story

so I sent the book into prison and I had now it's on tablets in prisons across the country right so there were things that I was doing that were meaningful and then I just did a really good job at everything I did and new opportunities opened up financially things have gotten a lot better for me in the last year like I have companies that are now going we'll pay you more we want you we want you you know

But the first few years, like, I didn't make any money. I mean, barely getting by. We still don't own a home. I don't know when that will happen. But we're fortunate. Again, we have people that really cheer us on that have helped us out, getting into housing and things that are reasonable. But it's a completely different life from what I had before financially.

It'll never look the same, and I'm okay with that. Did you feel like you have to rebuild or had to rebuild a relationship with your husband upon getting out? Like going on dates, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we just laugh because we're like, I mean, like, me coming out here, he sends me a message. And he's like, I miss you so much.

How are we going to be apart? I'm like, you're so goofy, Chad. You know? I'm gone for three days. But having gone through that together, I can't even tell you like, because he was waiting for me with flowers when I walked out of prison, which is kind of cute, right? Super cute.

Oh, yeah. And today's Valentine's Day. Oh, yeah. You missed him on Valentine's Day. Yeah, but we love each other a lot. So, like, just holding his hand when I walked out of that prison, what was kind of cool, too, was that all the girls. girls came running out. We love you, Miss Portia. We love you. Like cheering me on when I walked out.

And then Chad's waiting with flowers. And I remember holding his hand and feeling so much love for him. And I still feel that every time I hold his hand. Like, it's kind of a love story. It's a prison love story. Would he and your kids ask you questions about prison when you got out? I think my kids did not want to hear about prison. They were over it. In fact, the more I was talking about it and I wrote the book. I don't even know if my kids have read the books. And they're in them, of course, you know, so they got sick of it because there were so many people reaching out asking me,

I've been on several podcasts and I've been on different TV programs and I've written books about it and I'm known as Prison Portia, so. Prison Portia. So, yeah, I think they just got sick of it, but they're okay with it now. How's your relationship with your family?

Like your parents, your siblings? Really good. Better than ever. Because of what I've been through, I've been able to support them through hard things too. And my parents are older now and I just love them. And I feel like they gave me so much strength. Like never once. When I was in prison, people asked like, are you parents mad at you. I'm like, no. Parents are cheering me on, man. They believe in me. My parents have always just, they've always believed in me. And I'm so

grateful for that. So what's some advice you would tell your teenage self if you could stand next to her? Oh, man. I would say you are so much more amazing than you think. Like, do not sell yourself short, you do not need a man. I mean, I'm grateful to be married, but I'm fine on my own. And be patient, you know, just be patient, Porsche. It's going to work out. Like, don't you dare give up, which I never have, so. That's awesome. Yeah. Where do you see yourself in, you know, five years from now? What's the plan, the end game? Oh, man. It's a really good question. I mean, right now, I am part owner in a company that's going crazy that is helping people out of prison, get into addiction programs and housing and things like that, and that will continue to grow. I have done,

I've done a TED Talk. I've done some, even some international speaking gigs, but I expect that I will do, I will speak to bigger audiences and be in prisons more. I'm still, I'm in prisons now and in detention centers. I expect that my books will continue to grow. They've done fairly well. I self-publish them that they've done fairly well. I expect also 10,000 copies of living louder this year and in the next few years I'll sell 10,000 copies of Born to Be Brave. It's a long game for me. Like it's not something that I'm trying to this year hit it out of the park, but I'm consistently moving and trying to make a difference. It's not really money that drives me, but meaning. And so changing the narrative. There's a real human side of prison that doesn't get talked about. And I'm glad that you're doing what you're doing and other people are making a difference because it humanizes it. And you can't, lock people up for 20 years on nonviolent drug charges if they're human, right? It's that demonizing people that are in the system that makes it possible for prosecutors to lay people down. And so it's my hope that as we humanize it, if they look at me and they look at you and they think,

you know, we're pretty, I mean, yeah, I think we connect the average person to the prison experience in a good way. Did you ever come across Shelley, winter? Yeah, I know, Shelly. Yeah, she was at Dublin with me. Oh, you guys served time together? Yeah, we did. Holy cow. How do you know, She interviewed her in California.

Her episode came out a couple weeks ago. Oh, cool. She hit one of the top 50 on Spotify. That's awesome. And I had her husband on at the same time. Like, we took a break and he came in and shared her story or his story because they met in the halfway house. Okay. I didn't know she met him there.

We've talked since, but not a lot. You remind me of her in some ways. And, yeah, she's very interesting. And seeing her success after person. stuff. She's great. But Portia, thanks so much for coming on the show today. It was an incredible conversation and I wish you the best. And, you know, can't we just see your TikTok growing more after, you know, throwing you some tips? Yeah, you did too. I just do things and never know how, by the way, your dad makes amazing cookies. Just shout out to Ian's dad. He's amazing.

Yeah, well, I'm glad you got to meet him. He likes to hang out here lately, which is also a really cool, like full circle moment for me. Like, I don't have kids, but having my dad see, like, the success that's come from it is big. He speaks very highly of you when you were out of the room. Yeah. It's cool to see that. Yeah. Well, it's cool to see you here with your kids traveling with them and being a part of it together. Yeah. Someday you'll have to have them on and hear from their side what it was like. Yeah, and your husband, if you ever wants to talk about it too. Absolutely. So definitely. Well, thank you again and enjoy New York City. All right. Take care.