Locked In with Ian Bick - How The FBI Turned Me Into A Criminal — & Sent Me To Prison | Saffron Gustafason

Episode Date: December 18, 2025

Saffron Gustafson shares her experience transitioning from a career in the medical field to becoming the focus of an FBI investigation after she filed a lawsuit against a major insurance company. In this interview, Saffron explains why she took legal action, how the situation escalated, and the chain of events that eventually led to federal charges and prison time. She talks about navigating the legal system, the impact the case had on her work and family, what she learned from the process, and how she moved forward after serving her sentence _____________________________________________ #FBIStory #WrongfulConviction #PrisonStory #FederalCase #TrueCrimePodcast #GovernmentOverreach #JusticeSystem #LockedInPodcast _____________________________________________ Thanks to AURA FRAMES & BLUECHEW for sponsoring this episode: Aura Frames: Exclusive $35 off Carver Mat at https://on.auraframes.com/LOCKEDIN. Promo Code LOCKEDIN BlueChew: Get 10% off your first month of BlueChew Gold with code LOCKEDIN. Visit https://bluechew.com/ for more details and important safety information _____________________________________________ Connect with Saffron Gustafson: My Name Is Saffron is Available on Amazon: Buy on Amazon: https://a.co/d/g4lx7b8 Website: www.MyNameIsSaffron.com Instagram: @mynameissaffronbook Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Life Before Prison & Early Success 02:27 Writing the Book: Telling the Story for the First Time 05:00 Upbringing, Family Values & Small-Town Roots 08:00 Becoming an Entrepreneur & Business Owner 13:00 Building a Successful Medical Business 19:00 Insurance Disputes, Audits & Legal Pressure 23:00 The Lawsuit That Changed Everything 26:00 FBI Raid & the Beginning of Federal Trouble 31:00 Facing Federal Charges & Public Fallout 38:00 Plea Deal, Conviction & Sentencing 43:00 Federal Prison: Life Inside Dublin FCI 54:00 Prison Conditions, Isolation & Solitary Confinement 01:02:00 Halfway House, Reentry & Release 01:09:00 Probation, Restitution & Life After Prison 01:13:00 Rebuilding Life, Purpose & Helping Others 01:16:00 Lessons Learned & Final Reflections Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Do you think it was worth it over the $250,000? There was like rats and mice all over the place. Now, you're someone that, you know, had never been arrested or seen an inside of a prison cell, maybe watch some TV about it before, but this is all new to you. Saffron Gustafson worked in the medical field, filed a lawsuit she believed was justified, and soon found herself the target of an FBI investigation. This is how it unfolded. Saffron, welcome to Lockton.

Thanks so much for coming out here. I love your name. It's such a unique name. Oh, thank you. Where does it come from? So a lot of times people will ask if my parents are cooks or anything like that because it's a spice. One of the best spices. But I actually got it from a late 60 song called,

Mellow Yellow by Donovan. And in the song, he sings about a girl named Saffron. And there's my name. That's where I came from. Oh, that's so nice. And is the last name German? It's Swedish. Swedish, okay. I wasn't too far off. No, it's all in the same area. Now tell the audience about your book. Yes. Thank you for giving us a copy. My name is Saffron. Voices, Silence, Stifled, and Taken Away. It just kind of goes into what happened to me and what I want to do to help others who have kind of went through the same journey. And I started when I was in prison, I'm like, this is so crazy. I can't believe I'm here. And I can't believe that this is happening to me.

So I started taking notes from day one. I just was taking notes. I'm like, I was afraid I was going to just forget everything just because it's so traumatic that, you know, this is the natural thing that we do a lot is just shut down, you know, when it's so traumatic or scary. And I was like, I'm not going to remember everything. And I'm definitely not going to remember it in detail. So I daily took little notes.

And so when I got out, I was like, I really need to write this book because I'm, what I went through is insane. And so I went back through all my notes and I wrote it. Yeah, that's what I did too. I took a lot of notes, which I'm glad I did. And people ask me, like, about advice when they're going to prison and they want to, you know, get into content. I say the best thing you can do is just make a diary and record every single day. That's, yeah, because it's what you witness is crazy. And you're going to eventually probably start forgetting it if you don't because you're just like, I'm moving on. I'm carrying on. And yeah. So some of my friends from prison, they've read my book. And they're like, I forgot all about that. How did you remember that? Oh, my gosh. You know, and I'm like, well, remember, I always took notes. And they're like, oh, yeah, yeah, you were. Yeah, I was listening to you tell Matt outside that for a while you didn't really necessarily want to talk about it or own it. And then you decided to write the book and put your story out here. Yes, no. Initially, I was so shocked that something like this could happen to me. I, you know, I did all the right things in life that you're told. You know, I went to, I did all the school. I have a master's in business. I did all the, I have a background. I did medical cells and I was really successful in that straight out of college. And then,

from that, I went and opened up my own medical clinic. I had five locations in three different states, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. And I worked really, really hard at it. And I was successful. And I was really specialized in a very particular niche. And I thought I was doing all the right things in life. I didn't even have a speeding ticket. I think I had one when I was like 16, but I definitely not somebody that would be in trouble with the law, let alone get sentenced to federal prison. And you know, those are the most relatable stories to average everyday people. That's why it's so important to share those stories.

Oh, it's, yeah. And so that's what really made me write the book is I was just like, oh my goodness. Like this people don't. So I have since found out that that. a lot of a lot of people go through this but I didn't know that you know I thought I was like the only one that something so crazy you know I'm a normal person well I think I'm normal you know and I'm thinking this this is just crazy and so I didn't when this happened I did not it was it um embarrassing wouldn't be the proper word it was devastating I couldn't even process it myself let alone talk

about it and I definitely didn't want anyone to know and it was a very, it was really, really scary and not something I wanted to talk about. Where'd you grow up? I was born in a town called Cottage Grove, Oregon. And then I grew up in a town called Springfield, Oregon. It's just very small. It's east of Eugene, Oregon, which University of Oregon is out of Eugene. So a lot of people know that university due to for sports and that's kind of thing.

And then a lot of people are familiar with Portland, Oregon. And Eugene, Oregon is about two hours south of Portland, Oregon. Kind of given a little reference of where I grew up. But I grew up in Springfield, Oregon, small little town. What was your upbringing like? It was pretty good. My parents owned a carpet cleaning and janitorial business. I grew up literally doing that my old life, janitorial work and carpet cleaning and went to school,

had friends, just your very typical, you know, small town work type family. My parents are still married. I think they've been married for, I don't know, like over 50 years or something. I know. I'm like, oh, okay. But that's kind of the, you see a lot of that in the small town that I grew up in. And very country neighbors having horses and goats. And the elementary school I went to was lined up right next to. I don't want to say it was a farm because I don't think it was a farm, but there was like cows and horses just like right there on our playground.

So that's kind of the environment I grew up in. What were some morals they instilled in you as a kid growing up? Ironically, with everything that happened to me, to tell the truth, to not lie, do good things. You know, I grew up always, you know, believing that, you know, if you did the right thing, if you did good things, and the right thing and good things would come back to you to, to help people and to work really hard. So my parents have been pretty successful in life, but they worked really, really hard. And so I grew up always thinking that on a business side of, you know, if I put in the time,

I work really hard, I'm super dedicated, all the success will come to me. I'm kind of a workaholic. I've heard that you are too. It's hard for me to turn the clock off. It's all the time. And in owning a business, you have to be. If you want to be successful, at least in the business I had, it was seven days a week. Yeah, there's no days off when you're owning your own business.

Never a day off. And I tell people that who have not owned businesses and they're like, what? You didn't take vacations and stuff? And I'm like, no, I did not. Not that you couldn't, but I'd still be working on vacation. So I just never did. But I enjoyed what I did. So it wasn't, it wasn't like horrible.

I thoroughly enjoyed the work that I did because I help people. And that's what I like to do. But yeah, moral-wise, just work really hard. And, you know, if you want it, you can get it. So do whatever it takes to get that. How would you have described yourself as a kid, aside from a hard worker? Yeah. When I was really young, I was probably pretty quiet because I grew up in the country

and there wasn't really other kids around. I didn't have neighborhood kids or wasn't in a cul-de-sac or anything like that. It was like literally out in the country in the middle of nowhere without neighborhood kids. I just kind of grew up with animals and climbed trees. And I was never a tomboy. It was just that's, that was the environment I was in. So I kind of kept to myself. But as I got older, so as a young kid, just very carefree.

And then as I got older and went into middle school and high school, obviously with a lot more kids around, I really started to branch out and realized I was a pretty social person. I really like people. And then in college, definitely, that was a whole different ball game there. But yeah, growing up, I was just very, I would say quiet and a happy kid. And then as I got older, I was a little. the new best skin ever ultra slim precision concealer from Sephora Collection. It's full coverage with a matte finish

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I didn't like working for people. I started working for people when I was in high school. I always worked for my parents, but I didn't, I equated that kind of like with owning the business. I never felt like I was their employee. I was working for the family business. But in high school, I worked for some people, just some job. and stuff to, you know, pay for a car and gas and all that. And I'm like, I don't like working for people.

I didn't know what I wanted to do. I just knew I wanted to do something where I own my own business. So when I was in college, I just kept going back to school. I got a degree in general science and then didn't know what I wanted to do. So I went back and I got another degree in social science. and still didn't know what I wanted to do. So I went into cells because I'm like, well, I'm really good of people. I'll just go into cells. And then I went and when I was doing that, I went to grad school and got my master's in business while I was doing cells. And then I realized I was really, really successful in cells.

So when I was done with my MBA master's program, I went into medical cells. and I was pretty successful at that and had a lot of fun, traveled a lot, went all over the place. But from that, I was like, no, I definitely want to own my own business because there again, you know, I'm working for people. And although it was very much like you treated it like your own business and you made your own schedule and you made it go happen, if you wanted to be successful, you had to go make that happen. But you still had, you know, managers and bosses and corporate stuff. And I was like, eh, I mean, I had fun. I liked it. But I didn't think that I was going to probably succeed the way that I wanted to.

And back then, that was, gosh, probably about 20 years ago now. And back then, it was not as, there wasn't a lot of awareness like there is now for equality. And I was really being, I was very successful, but I was being held back. And I write about this actually in my book a very small part, but I brought it up to my managers at the time, the vice president of the company and then my direct manager. and because I seen a lot of my male colleagues who were doing, we were doing the same. You know, I was very successful and they were too in the company, but they were getting moved up and I wasn't. And so I had a meeting and I'm like, you know, I want to move up.

If I'm going to stay in this company, I want to, you know, I'm proving myself. I want to do something more. They actually said that I was not a good investment because I was probably going to get married and have kids. and then all their investment in me now would probably not return a gain to them. And at least they were honest with me. They weren't mean about it. They fully, they meant it.

But right then I was like, okay, I need to move on and I really need to start my own business because whether it's this company or another company, this is something I'm probably, going to run into. I was young. I was in my 20s and I was like, this is, this is probably something that I'm going to keep running into. And then from that, I started, I really loved the industry that I was in. So I wanted to stay in that. And but then I was like, I need to open up my own business. So I started, I had accounts. And I started telling them that I wanted to open up my own business. And one of my accounts that I sold to, sold medical products to. They actually had a satellite location that they were wanting to sell because it was going under. And they offered it to me. They're like,

do you want to buy it? We need the money and it's in the red, buy a lot. And so I thought about it. And I was like, well, I know this industry inside and out. I know all the hospitals. I know all the I know how to make the business happen, but I didn't have the business background as far as having employees and payrolls and, you know, leases and trying to do all of that. But I was pretty confident that I could do it. And that's how I started. I ended up buying a failing, failing business and turned it into a multi-location medical business. Where did you get the funding for that? Did you have that already or did you have to take loans? So my parents actually helped me with getting the loans because I was still pretty young.

At the time of me owning the business, I was 30. And banks weren't, even though I had a good, you know, financial record, banks weren't wanting to loan me a business loan at 30 years old for medical clinics so easily. So my parents helped, they co-signed and helped me to get that loan. And so that's how I got it started. And I was able to buy the failing business. And that's another thing. The banks were like, this business is failing. On top of everything else, I'm not sure we really want to give you the money for this.

So that's where the co-signing really helped. But my parents believed in me. You know, I was like, no, I know this industry. I can take this failing little satellite so I can really make it into something. And they believed in me, and so they helped me out with that. And I really turned it into, it took a while, of course, that's not overnight. But, yeah, I turned it into a little teeny satellite store that was going under. I turned that into, at the end of it, I had five locations in,

three states and doing pretty good. So, um, yeah. Looking back on it now, do you wish you stayed working for someone else? No. So, um, I was asked the other day if I regretted anything that's, that I did or even if I didn't know that it was wrong or something like that, you know, but now in hindsight, do I regret anything? Absolutely not. I, um, I'm definitely an entrepreneur. I, I thrive at owning my own business and doing my own thing. And I don't regret anything I've ever done. It's all a learning experience. I can't believe what has happened to me at all.

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Absolutely. So I had the business for about eight years when it started cracking. And I didn't know it was cracking. In hindsight, I know it was cracking at about eight years. And so I dealt with insurance companies. I was paid by medical insurance companies. So kind of like how a pharmacy is where you come in with a prescription, they fill your prescription. You give them your insurance stuff. They bill your insurance. The pharmacy. gets paid from the insurance company, you take the product, you go home. You'll have a co-pay or something like that. You might have to pay. Well, that was the same concept. I didn't work with pharmaceuticals. They were actual medical product that people would come in for, but they would come in with a prescription from the doctor, and I would fill the prescription, so to speak. It was more detailed than that, but that's basically what it was. And then I would build their insurance, and if they had a copay or deductible or anything like that, we would collect it at the time. And so I worked, I got paid, the company got paid from medical insurances.

While there was one, and it was as I grew, when I was really small, when I only had like one or two locations, the insurance companies were still pretty easy to work with. But as I grew, they did not like that because that meant that there was more patients I was seeing and that they were paying out more money. And so insurance companies, anytime they have to pay out more money, they don't like that. So I started getting a lot of pushback, probably like by the time I had my third clinic, way more than in the beginning. But then I kind of got used to the pushback and I'm like, well, that's just working with insurance companies. are difficult and that's just part of it. So I, you know, didn't think a whole lot about it. But there was one insurance. It was a very, very, very large insurance company. And most people have this insurance. It's a very large insurance company. And they were, and I was a preferred provider

with these insurance companies. So if you're a preferred provider, you were agreeing to dispense product. But in that, if you dispense it, as a business, you have to get paid for it. And so this very large insurance company was started to stop payment. I still have the contract. I was still a preferred provider, but they were not paying me on services rendered. And so this was a typical thing with insurance companies. And, you know, you have to fight them on it and this and that. But this got to be a very large dollar amount that they owed my business. And it was actually affecting like, how do I pay payroll?

How do I – this is becoming a problem now. So I had lawyers. And so my lawyers talked with their lawyers back and forth for months, you know, and it wasn't getting resolved. So my lawyers were like, look, Safran, either you just don't work with them, cancel the contract, or we need to sue them because they're just not paying. But yeah, I had to still, since I was a preferred provider, they weren't canceling my contract. So I had to still dispense to patients coming in.

And so I'm like, well, let's just sue them, you know? Like, they owe me. Like, if I just cancel a contract, they're not, they don't have to pay me, but they, what they owe me. And they're like, well, they'll probably cancel your contract, though, if you sue them. And I'm like, fine, but they owe me for the back pay. And so we ended up suing this very large medical insurance company, and which was scary. But, you know, I'm going off of the advice of my lawyers. And they're like, yeah, we've exhausted all.

other efforts. So we sued them. I won. They had to pay because I had all the proof that they, in writing, that they said they would pay me and they just were refusing to pay me. It took them a while to pay me. And for an insurance company, this was just like pennies. For a small business, it was not pennies, but to a major medical insurance, we're not talking that much money, not to them. It wouldn't even make a not even kind of a dent. But, but they took their sweet time in paying me. And when it came down to like the last $100 that they owed me, my lawyers were like, let's do a meeting with their lawyers. It was a phone conference meeting. They're like, when you come into our offices, we'll just do a final meeting. You know,

so the final $100 payment, you know, we want to be on good terms. We're done with this. Let's move forward. And so I bent with my lawyers in this meeting that they had with this big insurance company lawyers. and in that conversation, this medical insurance lawyers made a comment that Saffron better watch her back. She hasn't learned her lesson. And my lawyers were like, oh, wait a minute. Okay, you do know this is between you, the medical insurance company and her medical business, not her as a person. And they scoffed at it. They were like, they were like, huh, yeah, okay.

Anyways, she better watch her back. And my lawyers, which were business lawyers, were just like, what? Like, that's so unprofessional. Why would they say that? You know, but we just, we closed it. We were kind of like, okay. And then, you know, we ended the conversation. It was done.

But then when we were off of the phone conference, my lawyers were just like, oh my gosh, poor losers. And I'm like, I know. And so we were making jokes and stuff like, you know, like, oh, better watch your back. And, you know, we didn't take it that seriously. We were just like they're, you know, being stupid. And like, whatever. I don't, I don't want to work with them anyways. You know, that was our attitude. So we're not thinking, I mean, in hindsight, that was a threat. But we weren't taking it that way. We were taking it as like, oh my gosh, how unprofessional, you know, complete sore losers, whatever. So, um, We go, you know, about our way. My lawyers are like, they're going to pull your contract, and they did. But I was prepared for it. It was fine.

Like, whatever. And so it was, I don't know the exact amount of time, but I'm just going to say maybe, oh, maybe like six months later, I notice that massively across the board insurance, all my insurance companies are not paying me. or it's a real struggle, like way more than normal. Like something's going on. This isn't normal. I call up some of my other colleagues in the industry to see if they're, you know, are you having the same type of struggles and just normal struggles with getting paid with insurance, but not like I was dealing with.

It was massive. Like they're trying to shut down my business, not paying me type thing. And so I'm like, oh my gosh. And then not too far after that, I find out that they're raiding all of my medical clinics. I was in San Francisco. So I lived both in Portland, Oregon at the time and San Francisco. And I had clinics in Washington and Oregon. That's why I was in Portland.

and it was easy to get to Washington and all the places in Oregon. And then I had a location in Santa Rosa, California, and I was in the process of opening up one in San Francisco. So I lived in San Francisco. And I just happened to be in San Francisco when this happened. And I got a call, and it was, I had a clinic in a hospital in Oregon. One of the hospitals I actually had a clinic. clinic in the actual hospital. And the hospital called me. And they're like really early in the

morning. And they're like, so the FBI is rating your clinic and you need to get them out because it's making our hospital look really bad. And I'm like, what? I don't even, I'm like, what are you? What? So this was actually on a voicemail. And so I call the hospital immediately. And I'm like, And they're like, we can't even talk to you. And I'm like, wait, what? Because it's real early in the morning. And they're like, yeah, there's FBI everywhere. And they're in your clinic.

And they're taking out your computers, your files, like everywhere. And I'm like, I didn't even know what to say. I'm like, what? Like, just one day, just normal. It would be like FBI coming in here right now. You'd be like, whoa, what's going on? It was literally like that. Like, what?

I don't even, I don't know how to respond. So, so I call, and I'm freaking out. So I try calling my other managers. No one's answering their phones. Nobody. Because they'd be opening the clinic right then. And like no one's answering my phone calls. Like if one person didn't answer, that's a bit for everybody not to answer.

I'm like, okay, this is weird. And so I call the FBI headquarters in Portland, Oregon. I just looked it up. but happen to be in Portland, Oregon. So I call because I'm like, wow, there must be some mistake, and I need to clear this mistake up. And I'm still not thinking criminal, nothing. That doesn't even enter my mind. Why would it?

And so I call the FBI, and I say, hey, I got this really crazy phone call from a hospital saying that FBI were in there rating my clinic. And I need to talk to somebody. and they're like, well, let me look into that. We'll give you a call back. I'm like, okay. So I'm like waiting by my phone freaking out. Like I don't, I mean, I'm not in Oregon. This is happening in Oregon.

I don't know what's going on. I'm like, this doesn't make sense. And so the phone, my phone rings probably like 10 minutes later. And it's an FBI agent. And they're like, yeah. That's right. We're raiding your clinic in this hospital, and we're rating every clinic you own right now. And I'm like, what? I mean, I'm super just like, what? I'm not like, I'm not even mad because I'm just in shock. And so I'm like, what? Literally, I'm like, I don't understand. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, what do you need? This is silly. We don't need. disrupt business. What information do you need and I'll get it to you right away? Because I'm still thinking this is like I didn't cross a T. I didn't dot an eye on something and I can get this fixed.

Like, you know, if there's a mistake, let me fix it. Like, sorry I made a mistake. Let's get this fixed. Let's let's not, let's not do this. You know, we got to get to work. You know, I'm still like thinking I got appointments today I got to get to and gosh, that's not good today. If my clinics are closed, you know, I'm not, I'm not understanding how serious this is. And in hindsight, you're like, oh, how could you not? I've never dealt with something like this before, nor did I think I would, and I don't have any reference to it. And I'm, I'm literally thinking that this is just some really bad mistake I made that I can easily fix, get them whatever information they need. And so they're like, well, I'm glad you want to talk to us. So why don't you get on a flight right now,

because you're in San Francisco. Why don't you get in a flight and Portland airport's right next to our headquarters? And I immediately was like, how do you know I'm in San Francisco? Because I go back and forth all the time, like the day before I was in Portland. How do you know I'm in San Francisco? And they're like, oh, we know where you're at. And I just, I was like, okay, I'm going to call my lawyer. I need to get off the phone.

I just like freak out. I'm like, why would they know where they're following me? You know, like, I mean, of course they were. But I didn't at the time, I mean, just mind blowing. Like what? And so I call my business lawyers. Those are the, I have tax lawyers and business lawyers. And I call my business lawyers. And I tell them and they start freaking out. They're like, don't tell me anything. We're business lawyers. Like, if this is a criminal investigation, which it is, if there's FBI, like, we in court could, you know, be made to testify against you. Like, do not talk to us about this. And I'm like, I don't know. I don't like, what's going on and freaking out there? They're like, we're going to call it, you know, with your permission, we're going to call a criminal lawyer that we work with. That's really good here in Portland,

Oregon. And if they'll take you on, they'll give you a call back. But do not talk to anybody. definitely don't talk to the FBI like what what are you doing and um so I hang up and um like I don't know 20 minutes later I get a call from this criminal lawyer and they were not nice and but I mean they're a criminal lawyer and um you know and I'm freaking out right and they're like um so they're just very cold and like to the point which they should be they're a criminal lawyer I get it now, but at the time, I'm like, what? Why are you so mean to me? Like, I don't even know what's going on. And they're like, so why don't you just tell me right now why the FBI are rating you? Because you obviously did something wrong. So why don't you just tell me what that is right now. So then I know what the best way to support you and get this cleared up. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm clueless. I have no idea. And they're like, yes, you do. And like, no, I don't. I mean, I'm literally like, I don't even, I have no idea. And they're like, well, this is massive. FBI don't just go in and start rating clinics unless there's something major. So this was on a Friday.

And so the criminal lawyer was like, let's work out the retainer situation. So they have their money. And they're like, and then this will give you the weekend to think about it. And then on Monday, you can let me know what you. you did. And I'm like, that's not going to make any difference. I mean, I just need this fix. I need to know what document do they need that I can just send them today to get this fixed right now. Like, I can't even wait on the weekend. That's like multiple days without being open for business. You know, I'm still not understanding my life is over. I'm not understanding that. And I remember the criminal lawyer, once we got the retainer stuff, I'll figure out. The criminal lawyer was like, because I was like, you know, I just need this like fixed like for this weekend because I got to get back to business, you know, and be open for patients. And the criminal lawyer was like, no, you don't have a business anymore. I mean, this is all like happened within like this is maybe a couple hours. And they were like, you do not have a business anymore. They just completely destroyed you. So. and you're going to, you need to be prepared.

You most likely will be arrested at any moment at any time. And you're going to go to prison. And I was like, I remember being like, I can't go to jail. And I was like, maybe I could go to jail like for one night or something. I mean, I'm being just silly, right? But this is like, I can't comprehend this. And they were like, no, not gel. federal prison. FBI's involved. This is federal. So they have federal, you know, criminal

charges against you. I'll find out on Monday what those are. And I'm like, I'm just, I don't even have words. I mean, in hindsight now, I mean, it's just like ridiculous because I completely understand how the process works now. But at the time, this is just so left-filled, out of the blue. I'm just living my life, not even kind of in the criminal world, and I don't know anything about it, and I'm not understanding what's happening or why this is going on. And so, yeah, in that moment, they raided all of my clinics. They didn't raid the California one because they didn't have jurisdiction in California. So it was an Oregon case. And Washington was also pulled in that. I guess I don't know the legals, but like they could do that, but they couldn't pull

the California. California's different. But everything was shut down. I mean, I couldn't be open in California with all my other clinics shut down. They instantly put like on my company website that I was under medical fraud investigation and like all this stuff. I don't even know how that's legal. but the following Monday I found out that there was over something like 13 charges or something like that they had on me and I didn't even know what any of them meant like there is I have since learned that they do this to a lot of this is what they do they overcharge you oh yeah and they just like make up stuff and hope that they can find stuff to make it fit And I had like money laundering and wire fraud and mail fraud and I don't even, there was like 13 of just ridiculous. I don't even know.

I'm like, what does this even mean? Oh, and tax fraud and all this. I'm like, I have like tax lawyers. How is her tax? This is a Bose moment. Your 10 boring blocks from home until the beat drops in Bose clarity. And the baseline transforms boring into maybe the best part of your day. Your life deserves music.

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Like, what? And then it added up to be something like a minimum, minimum, 30 years in federal prison. Maximum could have been like for life or whatever. And I'm just like, I can't even comprehend this. I'm like, and I still don't even know what's wrong. I have no idea and I'm I'm looking at you know my my criminal lawyer that I now have which I couldn't even fathom having a criminal lawyer and now I'm being told that I'm looking at you know a minimum of 30 years well I'd be dead you know I'm not going to survive 30 years at this time I was like I had just turned 40 and I'm like my whole life's work is just destroyed you're telling me I'm looking at 30 years. in federal prison, which two days ago I was just living my life normal. I had no idea that I was in trouble. Don't even have a speeding ticket. You know, like how in the world does something like this happen?

And yeah, and it's just been a crazy, crazy journey and nightmare. So what they did is they, because of that, because of the 13 charges, I didn't even know what they meant. I know what they mean. now, but at the time, I'm like, I don't even know with this money laundering. What the heck? I know how to money laundering now. I know a lot of things now. But at the time, I'm like, how would I even do that? I don't even, I don't understand. I work seven days a week. Like, I don't, I don't, where would I even have time to try to think of this stuff? Or to know people that would know how to do it. I was just like flabbergasted that this was happening to me. And so it ended up being like three, three years that they had me under investigation. I ended up getting another, I mean,

my business was destroyed, completely destroyed. So I started, I went back into medical cells and I was told not to dedicate. I couldn't do medical cells where I traveled because my previous, previously when I did medical cells, I just traveled everywhere. So this particular medical company was local. And I could travel locally, but I couldn't like fly all over the place because then they would deem me as like a flight risk. And so I became very successful at that. and within like, you know, two and a half years, I was looking at probably starting a business and that.

But I could only do that if I was not, you know, charged with felonies because you can't work in hospitals and stuff with felonies. They don't allow that. So I was hoping that the judge would see, like, you know, look, I would only have to, with all the schooling I had and the background that I had, for this particular, industry for me to start a new business. And I'd probably need to go back for about a year to get a little bit more specialized in this particular industry to own the business. But I had a business plan. I had an all. So it wasn't just like, oh, yeah, I think I'm going to do this. I had it all

laid out, typed up everything of what I needed to do for the judge. So he could see like, you know, there'd be no point. You've already destroyed me. But I've, you know, within this last three years, I've picked back up, I've built back up. I'm going to do something with. this, you know, just please don't destroy me more so I can actually go forward and do something, right? And so anyways, they, I was, I was forced and I say I was forced into a plea deal. Some people might argue I wasn't forced, but I was forced. There's, you don't have a choice. So it was either I plea out or I don't. and it goes to trial, but my lawyer warned me that nobody wins on a federal case.

If you go like, and it's true, it's something like, don't quote me on this, but it's something like 1% wins, like 99.9% of people, if you're brought in by the federal government, they're going to win because they're not going to lose. It's a lot of money and it's a lot of embarrassment on them and they're not going to lose. They're going to whatever charge they have on you, they're going to find information to support that. Just to anybody. It doesn't matter what it is. They're going to find what they need to find to support whatever charge they're going to have on you.

And I still didn't. I was just like, I still wanted to go to trial. And my lawyer was like, look, he was like, if you do this, I mean, I'll, I will defend you. But you're going to be spending a lot more money. You're not going to win. And I can't sleep at night having you think that you are going to win. So you need to do the plea deal. And I'm just like, but the plea deal says, you know, I'm guilty of, you know, medical fraud and tax evasion.

Those were the two. And it was just nonsense. It was completely made up. I'm like, there was no medical fraud and there definitely was no tax evasion at all. Like I don't even know. And he's like, yeah, they just threw that in. He was like, if that was the only one, we'd go to trial. He goes, but the medical fraud, you know, it's, you argue it's capitalism, which he agreed it was, but they're going to argue that it's fraud.

And it was over my pricing. They thought I priced things too high. Like you submitted at a higher cost? Yeah, yeah. But I had the right to do that. It was, they were on this particular item, it was custom-made things, so there wasn't a set price. So since they were custom, every time you made something custom, it would be different because it didn't exist. And it was different for everybody.

So I had to send in all of the supporting documentation on that. But they did not like the pricing. And so they said I was gouging them. And so that was fraud. And that insurance company reported you? Yes. That is correct. Yep.

And we're talking a very large insurance company. so I think there were some strings pulled. It wasn't just a, oh, we think. And if it was just a normal thing, they would just pull a contract. Like you would never go to the FBI. I sued him, though, when I pissed him off. Fellas, gather around. It's time for an announcement bigger than the Super Bowl halftime show.

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I mean, it's nothing but for a small business, that was huge. I mean, to have that kind of money that was owed to me, I mean, that's affecting my lease agreements. That's affecting my payroll. That's affecting, I had a buy product to render to patients. And $250,000 for a business that's owed that's not paid. Yeah. Couldn't they have just settled for less?

Like, couldn't they have just went to you and say, hey, we'll give you half of that? and you probably would have taken it? They could have, but they didn't. Do they end up paying you the full $250? Yeah, they did. They were just, they got back at you. Yeah, then they immediately reported me to the FBI. And so that's another thing too.

I'm like, couldn't the judge see? Like, if they really thought I was fraudulent, isn't that suspicious that. Yeah, why pay the money? Yeah, they pay it and then they report me. Wouldn't they have reported me way before then? I mean, I had been in business for 10 years at this point, you know? It's like...

Looking back on it now, do you think it was worth it over the $250,000? No, not at all. I simply did it just to, gosh, I'm a small business and, you know, you put this in writing that you owed me, and so I dispensed the product and you haven't paid me and you're not responding to my lawyer, so I have to sue you to get paid. never in my wildest dreams would I think of such a thing that they would now report medical fraud to the FBI and that the FBI would actually jump on it, which they did because that's how they get paid. So what ends up happening? You take a plea deal? So I end up taking a plea deal because my lawyer is just like, no. Because they were also threatening that if I didn't take the plea deal, that there were going to be like more charges

and there's going to be like conspiracy charges, which they don't actually have to have proof on. They just have to have something like four people say that they think I had the intent to create fraud. And I'm like, well, no one's going to say that. And they're like, well, but they will because then they'll threaten them with what they're done to you if they don't. So I'm like, oh, okay, then they would say that. And so that scared me. And I'm just like, and then they threatened to like come after my family and come after some friends that, you know, maybe I had hired throughout the years. And just anyone that I was associated, they were going to come after my employees and just ridiculousness. And so that freaked me out. And I'm like, well, I am not about to have what's happening to me now happen to other people like due to me. Like no way. So. I ended up, I mean, it took a lot for me to sign that plea deal because that was a lie. I'm like, this, out of anything criminal that I supposedly did, this is because this isn't true.

And I'm signing a federal document saying that it is. And I was just so against doing that. But that was, you got two evils. You're going to pick the less. And that was the less. And I was still hoping that I wouldn't be sentenced to federal prison. my lawyer did not say that my lawyer was like oh no you will be but I was praying and hoping that the judge would see like I had already been destroyed enough that I was forced into signing this plea deal because he could see all everything that was the prosecution stuff was presenting to me so the judge would see that you know I was being told if I didn't all these other things were going to happen and um and that I had this other career that I was going to start and, you know, I'd be helping the community

and I was going to be doing good things. And so there would be no point to now send me to federal prison after everything I've already been through. And, but, of course, the judge didn't see it that way. And so it was three years of me being like in purgatory, basically, of not knowing what was going to happen to me in my life just being a standstill and it was destroyed. I was trying to rebuild it. And then the judge ended up sentencing me to, it was the minimum, the bare minimum for the charges. It was 22 months in federal prison. And then I was going to have three years probation. How did your parents react to this?

They were very upset. I mean, it's just devastating. It affects everybody. It affected my friends, my close friends, my family. It was horrible, you know. So my parents were there when, because I had to actually go to, like, court, court and go through all that. And when the sentence came down, I was really hoping it was not going to be federal prison. But when it was, like, my mom started crying. And, you know, it was just like horrible. You're like, oh, how in the world am I going through this? This is nuts. So, um, it was not easy for my parents at all. And I think it was easier for me because I just, at that point, I'm just like, well, that's my fate. I accept it.

But for them, it was a lot harder. I think sometimes if you're the person living it, it can kind of be easier than somebody on the outside because they can't do anything to help you. And if you're living it, you're like, yeah, well, this is just what I got to do. And so I ended up going to, um, I, um, I ended up going to, um, um, I'm. Dublin prison. I've heard of Dublin. Yes.

Dublin Federal Prison, Women's Prison in California, Dublin, California. And they got shut down in December of 2024 permanently for many, many, many counts of rape and abuse. And there was a whole list of things. It was regular abuse. There was sexual abuse. there was rape. And then the living conditions as well were just horrible. And so it got shut down permanently due to that. The warden was sentenced to, I think, like seven years or something like that, the chaplain. And then multiple guards have been sentenced. And I've been asked like,

well how did that you know how did that even how was that allowed well if the warden is doing it it's you know everything's overlooked everything's fine so um it was definitely allowed and so that was um not a fun experience i was not i was not there that that long um so i was not sexually abused but i had two close friends that were that were there and one of them was um someone that was an intricate part in shutting down the prison because it was videoed. It was actually on video camera of what happened to her. No, you said the conditions, like the living conditions were bad. What were those like?

Yeah, so it was just horrible. So it was not clean. The building was falling apart. The water, the pipes were rested. And so the water was actually tinted brown. and then it was heavily salted because there was so much bacteria in it. So you were drinking like this tinted brown salt water. And shipflies came out of all the sinks, all the drains.

The sewer lines were the pipes and stuff were all rested and falling apart. So they always broke. And it was just, it was gross. I mean, it was like hazard, hazard stuff. And in the kitchen, the sewer line ran underneath the kitchen. And so the actual kitchen smote like shit because it was like all right there. The vents were right there. And there was like rats and mice all over the place.

And in the kitchen, because it was a working camp. And so one of my jobs. I had a few different jobs, but one of them was working in the kitchen, which I don't cook. But that's a whole other story. But they actually had like mouse traps all over in the kitchen because the mice and the rats would get into the food at night. It was so gross. It was so gross. No, you're someone that, you know, had never been arrested or seen an inside of a prison cell, maybe watch some TV about it before.

But this is all new to you. What was that like for you? You know, your mental thoughts throughout this, surviving it? It was shocking. Yeah. So when I first walked in to prison, I was just like, so I was told that I was going to a camp. And so I was told all the, you know, fluff stuff, you know, it's not really a prison. It's not this, you know, there's yoga classes.

There's, you can work out, you know, like all this stuff. right so i'm not that naive i knew it wasn't going to be great but i'm like okay it's not going to be like federal federal prison no it was federal prison at least the one that i went to um it the dublin um federal prison was uh the camp part was used to be a military uh prison so it was designed for that and it was very much a prison and it um yeah There was no camp anything about that place. And so we all had cells. And the doors weren't locked.

But, I mean, we were in a cell room with a bunkey. It was not a dormitory or anything like that. Like I've heard some other like camps are. No, this was, you know, when you have the tears and rows of the cells. And, you know, this was a prison. Because it was designed for a prison. It was a prison. And they just turned it into a camp.

But the first three weeks I was there, I was put into solitary confinement. And I was not prepared for that. And they used the excuse of it being for COVID quarantine. So this was during COVID. But I have since learned that they do that to people anyways. They just told me it was for COVID. But this is what, I mean, that's quite often they do. that it's a regular thing so when you when you first get to prison they'll just like literally throw you

they can literally just throw you for no reason into solitary confinement i thought that they got my paperwork messed up and they thought like i was some hardened you know criminal or killer or something there and i was like i was like do you know like who i at like do you even know my name like nobody would tell me anything they just literally threw me in a prison cell locked the door and i was only lit out like twice a week for a cold 10 minute shower. It was brutal. It was horrible. And there was like, you know, in solitary confinement, you're not given a radio. You're not given there's no TV. There's no nothing. So I'm literally like in a closet, not knowing why I'm even in this closet for three weeks. And like that's that's 24 hours in a day, you know, for three weeks of not even

knowing why you're there because I was like in hindsight if I was told like look you're going to be in here for three weeks and no one's going to talk to you they're not going to tell you anything you're just stuck here that would be hard but I could mentally prepare for it because I'd be like I got three weeks and this is just what I got to do but not knowing and so I seriously thought they just got my paperwork messed up and had me in the wrong place and they weren't talking to me because I thought I was some warden criminal or something. I mean, it was like really scary. Like, they literally wouldn't talk to me. And one time the warden even came by and I was like, you know, Mr. Warden, I don't even know his name or anything. I'm just like pounding on the door. I'm like, I'm not supposed to be in here. And he was like,

and all he said is he like laughed at me and he's like, well, nobody wants to be here. And I'm like, oh my gosh. No, I, I'm supposed to be in a camp. And so since the camp was a working camp, One of the jobs was for the inmates to clean this section that I was in. And so one of the girls was from camp. And she was the only one that would tell me anything. Although she didn't know the answers, but she's like, it looks like you're in here for COVID. And I don't think it would be more than a couple weeks, but I don't know.

And so they didn't give us like any shampoo or conditioner or, anything. And so this particular girl, with her own money, bought, like, you know, the cheapest stuff from commissary, but with her own money, bought, like, shampoo and condition and stuff and leave them in the showers for us that were in the solitary confinement because otherwise with a 10-minute cold shower with us getting yelled at the whole time, there was nothing to even wash ourselves with. So she would, she wasn't supposed to. So she could have gotten in trouble. But she would, and so she'd like whisper it to us. You know, she'd be like, I don't know if they're going to, you know, still be in there, but I just left them, you know, these bottles in the showers.

And so one of the times when I got to the shower, none of the bottles were there and I'm like in tears, right? And like, and so I started going through the, there was a trash can. I started going through the trash can. Like, how gross is this? You get desperate. You don't even care. I'm like going through a trash can and I see a empty bottle and I'm like put some water in it. I'm like, I can get some of this out and just something to wash my hair. It was just so gross. And the whole time you're being yelled at and all the guards at this particular place were men. There were some women, but the majority were men and they're yelling at you.

And it was not fun. And it was very abusive. And unnecessary. Like that's just not necessary to treat people like that unless I did something wrong. you know, but you're just like, I'm just living. I'm just here. Like, geez. So after the three weeks, what, why, I don't know, they decided to pull me out after about three weeks. And then that was the first time that I went to the actual, the camp, which was just down the hall. It was still the prison. It wasn't any different. But you weren't in a locked cell and you could take.

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Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. A shower with real soap. How much time did you end up doing there? Did they move you to different facilities or did you do your whole time in that one? So I ended up being at the Dublin for seven months and then due to COVID because it was running rampant in the prison. People were actually being sent to the hospital and stuff because it was it was. spreading like really bad at that particular prison and so they anyone that was a low offense or wasn't violent and had a small amount of time left which would have been me they started to send them

to other facilities like other prisons or to halfway houses and so at seven months I was called in and they said they were going to, they actually said they were going to send me to home confinement and that I was going to be going to a halfway house just to get checked in because that's what they do since it's federal and then I'd be going to home confinement because I didn't want to go to a halfway house. I don't have any backgrounds of doing drugs or anything like that and no offense to anyone that did, but I knew that halfway houses were very prevalent in that and I just, I didn't want to be around that. I was like, I mean, because at that time I had some friends in federal prison and, and I had my routine, I had jobs and stuff. And I was just like, this place sucks, but I'm in a

routine and I can, you know, I can do the rest of the time here. And I have friends here. And I don't want to go to, you know, a drug house. I mean, that's what I knew of reentry halfway houses. And they're like, oh, no, no, you won't be. You'll be going to home confinement. So I'm like, okay. So they put me back into the solitary confinement for another two weeks for COVID. But by that time, I'm used to it. I'm like, whatever. I know the drill.

And but this, the second time, it was really horrible because they, they would play, it was like, war game torture stuff. They would like play at night really, really, really. loud music from like the 80s like, you know, Mariah Carey and Whitney Houston and, you know, the band called Hart, you know, very like ballad type, you know, singing. And they would play it on full volume all night, all night. So nobody could sleep. And you couldn't even like relax your mind. It was just like, oh my gosh. And the guards would leave. So it wasn't like they were listening to it. They just, it was torturous. So for two weeks of that. And then they wouldn't

let you sleep during the day and it was just it was horrible but I also knew that it was horrible and I'm like I'm getting out of here so whatever um so after that um they fly me back to Oregon and I'm thinking um well I knew I had to check in at this halfway house um but they told me I'm going to home confinement so um I'm just going to check in and they'll probably give me like an ankle monitor that's what I was told, and then my parents or a friend or whoever could come pick me up. So I did tell my parents that. They were two hours away. So they were ready to come pick me up. It was all, you know, organized for that. And so I get to the halfway house and I tell them that. And they start laughing at me. And they're like, no, you're going to be here with us for a while. And I'm like, oh, no, no. I mean,

I literally just flew from federal prison and the federal prison manager like told me, like literally just told me I was going to home confinement. I've already let my parents know. Like they're going to come pick me up. Like and they're like, no, that's not, that's not what's going on here. So I ended up being at that halfway house for eight months. And most people don't stay there for more than eight days, you know, like it's. It's usually like you're just there for a short amount of time and you move on. Some stay longer, but it's usually just a very quick. And so I was there for eight months. I ended up calling it the crack house because it was just everyone there did meth. It wasn't crack, but I called it the crack house because I was just like, this is insane.

Everyone here is like literally high on meth. They're drugged out. They're crazy. They're all men. There were, which I don't even know how that was legal because it was all open. I lived with these people. I couldn't leave unless I was working, which I did get a job to leave and just get out of there. But if I wasn't working, I had to stay there.

And it was an open environment. And they were all men. They were federal inmates. And these weren't people that, you know, stole something from a store. These were rapists and pedophiles and bank robbers and like not people I would hang out with. And it was scary. And then so a lot of these. men, you know, they hadn't seen a female in years, let alone be like right next to them.

And there were probably 10 women, including myself and around 200 men. And it was just, it was insane. It was a very unsafe environment. And I actually called a lawyer to be like, get me out of here. How is this legal? And I guess it is because it's federal land. And if the feds want you there, it's legal, I guess. But I don't know how that set up was legal.

Very scary. And for eight months, eight months. And again, it's not like they told me eight months. I mean, so I had no idea. But it ended up being eight months due to a CARES Act that passed. And that was that they, could end a sentence for somebody who wasn't violent and had like zero recidivism and that sort of thing. And so I was able to leave the, with no warning, though, they just, I was at work and I got a call saying that I was getting kicked out of the reentry place and out of the crack house and to come pick up my things.

And I'm like, I'm at work. I can't leave. And what do you mean? And they're just like, yeah, so we just got a. call and due to this CARES Act, you're being released, you're immediately on probation, you have to meet with a probation officer tomorrow morning, and you got to come and pick up your stuff right now. And I'm like, oh my gosh. What a shit show. It was the whole thing. I mean, it was just constantly like that. So I didn't want to get fired. So I had a call my

manager at work, and I'm like, hey, I'm really sorry, but this is my situation. And they were understanding due to that, you know, it was out of my control. So I went and I didn't even like fold things or anything. I just took everything out of my locker. I threw it in my car. I even care. Because they didn't want them to change their mind. I just wanted out of there. And so I left. I left and then immediately the fall. I went to my parents house because there's like nowhere to go. Like there's no warning, no planning, nothing, you know. Like if I didn't have my parents, I'd be like on the street. Like, what the heck? So I go to my parents' house and the very next morning meet with a probation officer and I'm immediately on probation.

And that was a whole kind of crazy thing too because they treated me like I was, you know, this big drug lord or something. Because that's what they're trained to probate on. And I'm like, okay, that doesn't really fit my situation, but whatever. Yeah, I was just reading an article. I guess they're passing something about. supervised release changing so that way it's more, you know, focused on people that need it, the supervision and less on the people that don't necessarily need it. Yeah. Because it is a lot. Like I was on three years, release and it's excessive. Very. It's bad. Yeah, mine was three years too.

And you're finished now or? Yes. Thank goodness. Did you have restitution or? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I have like, I think there's interest, so I don't know. Wait, they're charging you interest. Yeah, every day. I got interest on it. And it's so I don't know the exact amount, but it's like one and a half million dollars. Why? I didn't realize that they charged. They didn't charge me interest. Yeah, no.

So the judge ruled interest? Uh-huh. Yeah. I got interest on it. Yep. So how do you ever repay that? I have no idea. Are they strict on the enforcement of it?

Like, what does that look like? I have to pay a minimum amount every month, whether I have a job or not. I have to pay it. Or I go into default, which could be another criminal charge. Or they could seize things. Yes, yeah. At this point, I don't have anything for them to really cease. But, yeah, I'm like, you already took everything.

Do they leave you alone by paying the minimum amount? Yeah, yeah. I don't ever hear from them. But I do, my plans now is now that I'm off of probation. So the three years I was on probation, and I just got off of probation about six months ago or so. Congratulations. I know. Oh my gosh, right?

That was insane. And it was heavily, heavily regulated. I'm like, what the heck? This is like, I'm still in prison. The prison sentence is not over. This is stupid. Yeah, it was insane. And they would like contact my place of work and stuff.

And I'm like, yeah, good way to get me fired. The place I worked out were actually really cool, but most places aren't, you know. And like they wouldn't be okay being contacted all the time about. that like oh so anyways my plans now is to start another business and I'm just looking for some capital right now because everything was taken from me so I'm starting from scratch literally from literally from scratch and so I'm working on trying to get some capital start another business and I'm going to start hiring women coming out of the system because it is just so difficult, as you know, to when you're out to, to, you know, build back up.

And people don't always want to help because they don't understand how corrupt the system is and how easily somebody's life can be destroyed and how hard it is that once you go through all of that, how hard it is to now live your life again. It's very easy to get sucked back into it. And so in seeing that, I want to open up businesses that I'm able to hire. There's a nonprofit that I'm wanting to get started. I have started, but I'm working on capital to get it really going. But there again, just to help women who are coming out of the system to get good employment,

not just employment, but actually good employment, housing, transportation, education, all those things that a lot of people just take for granted and they don't realize that when that's stripped away from you and if you don't have family, if you don't have anyone that can step in and help you, what do you do? It's all gone. How do you rebuild? And now you got, you know, a felony on your record and people don't want to work with you. They don't want to deal with you and they don't want to talk to you. And so you're being shunned constantly. And so I'm, doing the best that I can to try to be a help in that and helping women coming out of the system just to not go back into it. So will that business be medical related or are you done with that?

Nope. It's still medical related, but it doesn't deal with insurance companies. Yeah. So it's actually, it's a, so I worked for a franchise company. It's a chiropractic clinic. and it's a franchise. And so I worked for them for four years and I'm like, learned the business inside and out and I'm like, and got to know a lot of doctors and a lot of contacts. And then they got to know my story. And we're like, oh, so you can do this. You could like run this. And I'm like, yes. So I have plans to do that. Just need the capital. So if there's any investors out there, I'm just looking for some capital to get it started, but it's a great, it's a really great business. It's medical. And I can do it. I could even probation let me work there because

they don't deal with insurance companies. So that's the medical fraud felony thing is I can't work with medical insurance companies ever, forever. I'm like, okay, I don't want to anyways. What do you think this whole experience has taught you? Like, what's the lesson? you think you needed to learn by going through this, the silver lining. Yeah, and I've thought about that a lot because I'm like, I'm not perfect, but I'm a good person. And so why in the world was something like this happened to a good person? And I don't know the exact answers, but I think the biggest thing is I had always worked to help. people, you know, work to make, to help people and making money, you know, like, yes, I will help you

if I can get paid for it. And this whole experience has changed my whole view set of that. Now I want to make money to help people, not help people to make money, but to actually make money to help people. It's a whole different kind of giving. And there's such a need for people. coming out of the system to get help and to have understanding. And I would never, ever know about that if I didn't go through this. And I've always wanted to do things career-wise that is helping people. That's just a passion of mine. But this particular part, it needs so much help, need like a thousand of us out there to help all the people that need the help. And I would never, ever, ever have known that. Even if somebody told me, I wouldn't understand what was actually needed

if I didn't go through it. Well, Saffron, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Oh, thank you for having me. Yeah, you're such a great storyteller and you tell it so well. Well, I hope I can help some people even through this podcast. Yeah, definitely. And we'll have the link to your book in the description of this episode. Awesome. Thank you.