Locked In with Ian Bick - I Became a Shot Caller in Federal Prison — Here's What That Life Really Looks Like | Danny Walsh

Episode Date: August 13, 2026

Danny Walsh grew up in Texas with a mother consumed by addiction and a father who was never in the picture — and when he and his brother essentially raised each other as teenagers on their own the path toward trouble found them both before anyone was old enough to stop it. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, he shares how an early sentence in the Texas Department of Corrections led him to become a peckerwood and join one of the most notorious prison gangs in the Texas system before a federal conviction in his early 20s handed him 25 years and sent him into the most brutal maximum security federal penitentiaries in the United States. He opens up about becoming a shot caller — the power, the rules, the violence and the politics that position actually involves — what spending years in solitary confinement did to him mentally and what the PTSD that prison produced has made reacclimating into society nearly impossible in ways that the system that put him there has done almost nothing to address. _____________________________________________ #shotcaller #federalprison #truecrimestories _____________________________________________ Thank you to HIMS & FACTOR for sponsoring this episode: Hims: Visit https://hims.com/lockedin to get a personalized, affordable plan that gets you. _____________________________________________ Factor: Head to https://factormeals.com/lockedin50off and use code lockedin50off to get 50 percent off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year, while supplies last until! _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Growing up in a rough Houston neighborhood 04:08 Early drinking and harmful experiences 06:06 Normalizing poverty and abuse 06:55 Time in isolation and breaking down demons 08:15 Fighting to stay un-institutionalized 09:59 The dangers of accepting prison as home 10:40 A bus station lesson in institutionalization 11:40 Refusing to accept a prisoner's life 12:52 Youthful dreams of the military and football 13:48 Arrested and learning the code 15:15 Brother's tough lessons on loyalty 16:32 Drug use and the cycle of incarceration 17:42 Facing federal charges and refusing to snitch 19:43 The deal is a lie: 25-year sentence 22:20 Betrayed by a lawyer and becoming hardened 24:39 Why the excessive sentence? 25:45 Rejecting the state's offer on principle 28:01 Adapting from state to federal politics 29:49 TDC initiation: riots and lockdown 34:05 Surviving lockdown and a cell fire 36:15 Joining a Texas prison gang 38:08 Your gang arrives in the feds 39:37 Taking control and building respect 41:07 The lie of gang philosophy 44:32 The failure of the prison system 46:40 Fighting for resentencing and 11 years over time 48:42 Release: 23 years later and a new world 52:35 Initial struggles with a changed society 54:55 Getting a job and building a new life 58:02 Fired by the state for tattoos 01:00:49 The struggle for identity and self-love 01:02:55 Jail habits that persist 01:04:24 Why not join another white gang? 01:05:43 Misconceptions about white inmates 01:08:12 A fight for respect over a TV 01:13:40 Relationships with other races and gangs 01:18:00 Prison economy and cross-racial business 01:20:18 How did you become a shot caller? 01:23:56 Dispensing justice and avoiding trouble 01:27:10 Sex cases and the white racial code 01:30:40 The meaning behind prison tattoos 01:34:38 Regretting gang involvement and ink 01:36:43 The origins of the Woods and Texas gangs 01:40:22 Are all white guys 'peckerwoods'? 01:41:06 Why did you stay in the gang in the feds? 01:42:08 Treachery within your own ranks 01:45:39 Can the BOP eliminate gangs? 01:49:10 Why the feds keep you divided 01:55:20 The burden of being a shot caller 01:59:40 Becoming an animal and losing yourself 02:02:50 The mental toll and nightmares of prison 02:05:28 Learning to keep your word and integrity 02:08:48 Feeling compelled to violence 02:11:10 Coping with the trauma of solitary 02:14:24 The need for prison reform and support 02:18:15 Released with no help or programs 02:23:52 Job struggles and endless punishment 02:29:36 The ongoing stigma of a felony 02:32:26 Corrupt guards and a lack of control 02:36:10 The chaos of maximum-security life 02:39:20 Debunking the 'sit to pee' myth 02:43:04 You were left alone and the system failed you 02:45:40 Learning to navigate prison safely 02:48:00 Proving yourself and survival instincts 02:50:07 Good guys in bad gangs 02:53:35 A close call with a conspiracy to kill you 03:00:52 Saved from a plot and changing your ways 03:03:39 Why are you here and how did you survive? 03:04:48 The struggle to find a job after power 03:06:48 Women and bad company send men back 03:08:23 Finding peace in a wine bar 03:10:12 Learning to love yourself and move on 03:12:42 Cherishing freedom and family 03:16:32 Advice to your younger self _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

My guest today is Danny Walsh. He joined a notorious prison gang in Texas and was later sentenced to 25 years in federal prison. He would end up becoming a shot caller inside some of America's toughest penitentiaries. Now he's sharing what that life was really like. I grew up in a little neighborhood called Cloverleaf. Most people that were from the Houston area are familiar with it. It was east side of Houston, more of the industrial area. It was a bandito neighborhood, so you could smell the meth cooking in the air.

What did your parents do for work? My mother was a drug addict alcoholic, and there was a couple of stepfathers, you know. And my mother was pretty much, you know, just one of those women that abused, beat up, you know, and took the abuse. you know, and when I was 12, I came, when we moved back, we lived in Oklahoma for about four years, we moved back to Texas, and in Cloverleaf, and my older brother ran the last stepdad off, and one dad came home to school, and my brother was packing some stuff, and I was like, what are you doing?

He was like, I'm packing her shit, and either you can help me pack her shit or you can pack your shit. And so I was like, I guess we're packing her shit. So we packed her stuff. And it was me and my older brother. He was 18 and I was 13, you know. So just went from there, you know, and try to stay good, try to stay, you know, in the right path.

But it was a bad neighborhood. And played football, was in the sports and everything. And just doing drugs got me squirled away. And the freshman year of high school, the first day of summer, I get out and my brother wakes me up, five o'clock in the morning, and says, what are you doing? I said, man, school's over, man. Summerdown. He goes, oh, you're not going to lay here sucking up with my air conditioning.

You're going to get a fucking job. So he got me out, kicked me out of the house. He said, there's some water in the water hose. I'll be back. He left. Eventually got a job because I was like, man, this is some bullshit. Got a job and I saved up a little bit of money, bought me a motorcycle, right? And my brother was like, okay, you know, I bring it home.

And my buddy from works there, and my brother's like, okay, don't say anything. And then my buddy leaves. My brother looks at the motorcycle, start walking around and goes, I just don't understand. I was like, well, what do you understand? He's like how all your shit is going to fit on that bike. And I go, what are you talking about? He goes, oh, you're a big boy now. He said, you're a grown man.

You're buying motorcycles, doing all this stuff. We're going to get you your own place. I was 15, 16, just turned 16. and he went to apartment complex and lied to him and told him that was 18 years old and that was it where was your biological dad uh he took off when i was born he was a military guy he was in the army uh he was here in he was here in texas but he was from high in sport massachusetts and so when my mother got pregnant you know he already had another family and everything you know so he was like he left you know he was he was out of there you know he was going to hang out but uh so it was

like stepfathers you know uh and different guys or whatever, you know, kind of deal. Same story. Same story as everybody else just about, it was a bad neighborhood. It was this, was that. It was a lot of my poor decisions. But, I mean, the environment didn't help a lot, you know. How did it feel to have, you know, that, I guess, growing up fast pushed on you at that age? I tell people this story, and it does not make my brother look good. I was, I mean, the first time I passed out drunk, I was eight years old. My, stepfather told me that you weren't a man unless you can drink whiskey with your dad and you know

and so I remember you know passing out eight years old you know and so drinking and stuff I started drinking pretty early and I was in the VFW halls at 12 years old drinking long neck bottles you know and I growing up the way we did you know my mother wasn't you know wasn't any parenting going on you know I mean you just I don't know how to explain it it was just she just she just made it you know mean and my brother i remember 13 years old i came home and um my brother was like getting a van he had a buddy named nick a ex-military guy and uh you get in a van he's like uh i was like where we're going he goes i'm gonna get you some pussy i was like dang it's like all right you know i'm 13 years old i'm like hell yeah you know takes me to a cheap motel room and uh a 28 year old

woman you know and uh so uh that was my first experience you know and and and uh so uh that was my first experience, you know. And I look back on it now and it shouldn't happen. You know what I mean? I understand that now. Conceptually, you know, I realized that the way I grew up was not normal, you know, and that type of thing should never have happened. And it changed me, you know what I mean? The way I view women and stuff is different because of it, you know what I mean? And, you know, so the way I grew up, my brother was a violent guy, very dangerous dude. My sister was a very, is still a, she's still alive, very dangerous person. They, we grew up in bad neighborhoods, man, you know what I mean? And so growing up like that, it's quick, man.

You know, there's no parental guidance. You know, you're just, you know. And so I don't know. It's strange. It seemed normal. I mean, now that I'm older, I look at it and go, wow, man, what happened? You know, why did, you know, but it was normal at the time. Everything is.

You know, when you were a kid, you normalize everything around you. There's nothing. I mean, even like, we were poor, too. I mean, no food in a refrigerator or anything like that. But at the time, it didn't feel that way. I didn't feel like we were like that point. or I didn't feel like, you know, that we had that much less than other people. So as I got older, it's when I started looking back and going, wow, you know,

that probably didn't help. You know what I mean? But, yeah, I don't know. It's a different environment. Did you compare yourself to other kids that say you went to school with? No. No, never did. Yeah, I never.

I mean, I never thought about it. You know what I mean? I never really, I never really put it in perspective, you know? And I don't know why. I mean, I think maybe everybody else was that way. You know, I lived in a very poor neighborhood. I mean, Cloverleaf is a very, very poor neighborhood. And I had buddies that, you know, they had no air condition.

They slept on dirt floors. I mean, it was bad. So I don't know. It looked like the way everybody else lived. It didn't seem that much different. So, no, I didn't think of it that way. You know, yeah, I did not. I never did, you know.

Did you put blame on your mother as a kid? No. No. No, I never put blame on anybody, you know. I never, I never looked back and, and remember, you know, I did so much time. I did so much time in isolation. Years. I mean, I went, I think I went like six years one time without seeing grass. You know, so like I went years just being in a cell. And there's long times where I didn't have no cellie. I was by myself. And so you break all that stuff down. I mean, you know, I was in there a long time, and there's a lot of time to go over a lot of different things. And so, yeah, I broke all that stuff down when I was in prison and I was like, yeah, you know, I let it go. You know, I didn't let it, you know, because of the abuse and stuff. I grew up, you know, a lot of abuse and everything. And I, the ex-father who, you know, was doing all the abuse and stuff, I never, you know, I didn't want him to rule and control my life.

I didn't want him to dictate now, you know, I didn't want him to have that power over me. And that's what it felt like every time that I would think about him or I'd get angry about things. And, you know, I was like, yeah, I can't let this dude rule me. I can't let him control me. And control now. He had so much power over me in the past when I was a kid. And it kind of shaped and dictated the man that I grew in to be because of him. And I, in the cell, you know, you're sitting there and you're fighting the demons and that

demon got fought. And I knew right away that I was going to let him have that power over me. And so I never really, I don't think about it. You know, and people, it's funny because people go, man, you seem to have such a good attitude for someone who did so much time. And the thing is, man, I didn't think I was going to get out. And the life that I lived in there was, was, it was tough, you know what I mean? Like, I didn't, it was tough, you know what I mean? And so like, when I got out here, I tell her, people say, how do you?

I said, man, I'm blessed every day. You'd be a lot. And it's true. I'm blessed, man. I mean, I can't get upset. I can't be mad. Why? Look at what I'm doing.

Look at the life I have. I went from a hole in the ground to this. I am happy. I don't look back. I don't think about my, I don't think about the prison sentence at all. It took about five or six years for me to stop dreaming about killing people or people killing me. I woke up every night with the same scenarios going on in my mind,

barely slept because it took a long time for the residual effect to be gone, you know. but I still woke up happy because I was like, man, this is, who gets this chance? Like, this is no, I mean, this is the lottery. I mean, these people did not want to let me out. I still had seven years on my sentence when I got out. I got out seven years early. Overturned my sentence, man, because I didn't give up. I fought the whole way.

And the people who know me that was in prison will tell you, man, I woke up. I was an extreme asshole, man. I didn't allow calendars in my cell. I didn't hang pictures on my freaking wall. I didn't make myself my house. I'm a prisoner. I'm not at home. This is not,

you know what I mean? Like, I couldn't understand people. I would see dudes act that way. They'd get there and, man, I mean, oh, you could, man, they were just kicked back. And I mean, it's like,

I think, damn, dog, you're in prison. You're okay with that? I'm just doing the best of a bad situation. Not like that, you ain't. You know what I mean? Because to me, this is not normal. A man shouldn't live like this. A human being should not live underneath his conditions.

And if you're okay with it, then you're going to accept certain things. And then when you get out, you're going to be that much more condition to come back in. Because it wasn't that bad, remember? You were living like that was your house. I was 19 years old at Huntsville getting out of prison. They got a little bus station. They sent everybody to it. They tell everybody, get on the bus, get the hell out of Huntsville.

They tell everybody that. I'm in that bus station, just a kid. A guy did 15 years. I'll never forget this guy. I'll never forget his face. He's sitting there, and the guy that was overseeing the bus depot area allowed them to go get some liquor. They go down to a liquor store, and they go get some liquor, and they come back, and the guy starts drinking. He gets drunk.

He starts crying in the bus station, talking about all his life was back there and He had nothing to look forward to in the free world. Everything he owned, everything he was was in there. He's crying. That's a grown man. And I'm looking at this guy going, I can't believe this is happening. You know what I'm saying? Because that place sucked bad, you know? And they came and got him and took him away. So when I got sent this to the 30 years, I told myself, I said, man, Danny, you're going to have to, this is going to be a challenge. I didn't want to become institutionalized. I didn't want to. I didn't want to. to be one of those guys, a big sentence. They just make it their home. And so when everyone wonders why I was such an asshole, that's why. I did not accept being a prisoner. I did not accept it. That's why the Bureau of Prisons didn't like me because I was an asshole and I gave them the blues all the way through my sentence. There's a lot, I mean, there's a lot of rural prison guards who would probably say something because, man, I was an asshole. And I didn't give them a break. You know, and I was a, I was a, I'm not a tough guy.

I'm not. And then there's a lot of people that know me and they'll say a lot of different things. I'm just super stupid. That's it. Tough guys don't make it in there. They didn't see very many tough guys in prison. I know people assume that there's a lot of tough guys, but they're not, you know. Those guys get dealt with.

I don't care how big you are, I don't, none of that stuff matters. None of it matters. You go to that max, you go to that penitentiary. If you act like a tough guy, you're going to get dealt with. Before you ended up in prison, what did young Danny want out of life? I wanted to be in the military. I wanted to be a military sniper. I wanted to play football.

I wanted to play for the University of Texas. I was a good athlete. I was full grown at 12. I haven't grown an inch since then. Big kid. So I'd go to a school and people were like, oh, my God. You know, it's Texas football. So I was really good at sports.

All of them, basketball, baseball, and everything. But I got arrested one month after I turned 18, and I was already enlisted to the Army. I was trying to get my GED because I had dropped out of school to work. And I was trying to get my GED, and someone I knew got arrested and told them that I was doing dirt. And they arrested me. And so when I went to the jailhouse, I had never been to prison before or jail before. My brother came up there. And I was in 1301, old Harris County jail.

Not a good place to be if you're white. Very bad place to be if you're white. And a fresh 18-year-old kid, you know, I came in there, but I'm from the neighborhood. And, you know, my brother taught me out of fight and stuff and everything. So he came up there. And I'm beat up. Now they beat me up. I'm not going to say, like, you know,

I mean, I got beat up. But, I mean, I made it hard on him. I made it take two of them to beat me up. And so then they were like, okay, you know, this guy, you know. So my brother came up there and I'm beat up. And he looks at me. And he goes, let me see your shoes. First thing he said to me, this, he's my hero, my brother.

And I had a pair of fours, Jordans. I got a pair of Jordans on now. I love him. But he goes, let me see your shoes. I show him my Jordans. He goes, I'm going to go downstairs right now. and I'll put money on your books. I'm going to come visit you.

If I come and visit you and you ain't got your shoes, you'll never get a dime from me again. He knew what that meant. Them shoes meant that I was fighting and I was staying down. If I didn't have my shoes, that was it. I was like, yeah, man. Absolutely, man.

Yeah, yeah, you know. And he's like, okay, man. And he goes, if you're at, you're not my brother anymore and you're not welcoming my home anymore. And he's my only family I had. You know what I'm saying?

And, you know, I wasn't going to rat or not. I've already been told, you know, the whole play, you know, what you do and everything else. But he was just making sure I knew, you know. And I said, yeah, man, I got this, man. I got this. And so it's like not even, like, I know everybody's not raised the same, you know. And, you know, my brother was on his own at 12. So, you know, you know, you, you know, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you, you,

You, he wasn't a bad guy. You know, he was doing the best he could. He was trying to raise a man, and that's what he thought he was doing. So, you know, life for me was different. Yeah, you know, we was hanging out on gangsters. You know what I mean? Everybody I knew or hung around with were dangerous guys, you know what I mean? And guys who were in a criminal world, you know.

So I kind of just follow along, man. You know what I mean? Just went for the ride. And I did drugs. I don't drink or, and I'm people who know me in the, the feds, no, me for my no drug stance. But I did drugs a lot when I was a kid, a lot of pills. I was smoking crack, doing meth, 13 years old and everything. And, you know, I don't even remember, like when I was 16, 17, 18 years old, I kind of really don't even remember those

years because I was just high and just strung out, you know, and got out of prison, went back to prison. a month later high speed chase got beat up the cops beat me up really bad put me in this horrible place man this county jail man

when I was in there beat up I looked at myself and I said yeah drugs are not the way for me you know and I was like I had to change my life and I did and when I got out again the next time I went to school

became a certified welder but couldn't keep it on that path and they got sideways again, not with drugs, with a woman, and got caught right back up, you know, went right back to jail, you know. And so it was an in-and-out type deal three times. I went to TDC. On the third trip, I went straight from TDC to the feds.

They took me from, I had a four-year-a-sent. They stacked everything, you know. The last offense was the 924C fell in possession of a weapon and carjacking for the Fed. That was my federal case. So I went to county jail. I had a state charged as well. They put me in a bad gang, all blacks.

I was the only white guy, you know, fought my whole 17 months in that place, knew that, you know, I was looking at 30 years, you know. And they were pulling me out of the tank, beat up, beat up, because I was getting beat up. And they pulled me out of the holding tank and say, We'll let you go tomorrow. All you got to do is telling this guy. I was 21. And I was like, no, it ain't happening, man.

You know what I mean? They would send me back. I get beat up, get beat up. And they were using it to try to break me. And the last detective came to me and he was like, if you don't, oh, you're a tough guy. Yeah, you're a tough guy. You know, this, that, and another.

And I was kind of like, yeah, I am a tough guy, you know. And he's like, well, if you don't tell him this situation, blah, we're going to put the feds on you. And the feds, like when someone told me that, I was like, I don't even know what that means. And I was like, man, fuck you in the feds. He goes, okay, okay, yeah. And so they got me, you know what I mean? Like the next thing I know I get to all these indictments, carjacking, robbery, all this.

So, you know, I was looking at a little bitty state sentence, you know what I mean? And then I see all this. And I was just like, whoa, man, this is heavy. You know what I mean? This is going to be a big deal, you know? And I go down there and I fight, I fight, I fight. So I got a cop-out lawyer and I'm telling me, I'm going to trial. You don't never take the feds to trial.

Never. You, the feds come to you, plead guilty. If the state comes to you, fighting. But if the feds come to you, they already got everything they need. You're guilty and they got you. So don't even play games with them. But they were talking about 50 life stack sentences. It's 21 years old.

I feel like I'm going to go to trial because I'm not going to, you know, so I go to, I go to. A week before trial, my ho-ass lawyer comes to me and says, I can get you 15 years. 15 years sounds like a winner to me. I'm like, hell yeah, 15, man, you should have said that, you know? He leaves. They take me out there and he goes, don't say nothing about our deal. Absolutely, man.

No problem, man. I'm standing up there. Now, I was very uneducated. I probably got fifth grade education when I went to prison, you know. So the guy is talking and he's saying all this stuff were big words to me. He goes, propensity. I didn't know what propensity meant. He said you have a propensity towards violence.

Wasn't really sure. He said that you have little respectful law. I understood that. He said anything less than the upper end of the guideline would depreciate the seriousness of this offense. What he told me. And I'm looking at him going, I don't know if this sounds that good to me, man. You know what I mean?

And he starts doing the months. And then, you know, there's like a, you know, first off, at the, the first one was a stack sentence on top of the state deal. But he said 60 months for count this. And then he goes, for count this, this and that, this 135 months. And, you know, 235 months, like right off the top of your head, you know, how many years is that? And so when they tell me the months and they're all, and they're putting all this stuff together, I'm looking at this guy.

I'm going, man, I don't know. You know, I'm not sure. If this is 15 or not. And when he hit the thing, the craziest thing happened. As soon as he hit the thing, that there's a marshal that transports you from the county jail to the courthouse, a couple marshals, right?

Well, there was this one old marshal. And as soon as they went, bam, they tackled me. Pinned me to the table, talking about, and I'm wholly confused about what's happening here, okay? The guy's patting me on the shoulder going, it's going to be all right, youngster. It's going to be all right.

I'm going, what are these people tripping on? I'm thinking, do they do this, everybody? Is this like when you get your time, they just automatically gaffle you up because they think you're going to act up? And I was like, okay, and they gaffled me up, take me out. I still don't know I got 25-year sentence. I'm like, wow, you know, so I go back,

I go back to the county jail, no one says nothing to me. I go to sleep, you know, they've been to court all morning, I go to sleep, you know, I'll wake up. Somebody wakes me up. What's going on? He goes, oh, he's a Christian guy.

He goes, man, I'm sorry, bro. I'm so sorry. Man, I'm so sorry. And I'm like, I'm good, man. I'm thinking I got 15 years. I know I can do it. And I'm like, man, he goes, you don't have 15. He doesn't have 15.

He goes, you're on the news. So I ran out there because it was the first carjacking case. They had made it a federal crime back then. This was in 93. So I go up there, I'm looking at a, whoa, whoa, 25-year-old. 25, I call my lawyer, and-in-in-in-in-in-in-in-in-in-in-in. I'm like, oh, he got me.

He sold me out. He literally sold me out because he didn't want to go to trial. He did not want, because he's not getting paid for that. You know, he's a cop-out lawyer. He wants you to hurry up, sign on the plane, not a line to get you on out of here.

So I, from that point on, I'd say that I just started becoming another person. You know, I, you know, there's that hope, you know, in the beginning, you know, people start reading Bibles and stuff and praying and hoping that they're going to get out. You know, at that point, I was pretty much like, yeah. Are you trying to lose weight this summer?

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Wagobe Clinical Study Information, and restrictions, visit hymns.com. Wow. That's it. I'm switching to Hems. Why did they give you so much time just for a carjacking? Did someone die? Nope.

So then why so much time? This seems excessive. Because, and they stacked it. It's basically a 30-year sentence because they stacked it on top of a nine-year sentence in TDC. Simply because I wouldn't testify. And I was an asshole. I mean, I was an asshole.

I talked, oh, man, I talked smack. You know what I mean? Fuck you. You know what I mean? I was one of those guys. And when the investigator tried to speak to me, you know, I was just, I look at it now and I know that I could handle the situation differently. But I just was stupid, you know what I mean? And I regret it, man, you know what I mean?

Because it cost me. You know, it really did because they didn't want me. You know, they wanted these other guys. And I could have played it a different way. You know, I could, man, I don't know what you're talking about. I didn't do that. I was like, man, you know, whatever, you know. And it was a mistake.

It was young, stupid, you know, and whatever. And then you kind of get on this rut and this path. And it just consumes you and it takes over and it became more than who I really was. Did you not testify because you wanted your brother's validation or because that was a principle of your own? Hmm. That's a good question. I mean, it's hard to look back on it now, you know. I did a whole life, you know.

I don't believe that you should be a. at if what you're telling like so if you told on me now I'm cool with that you're a citizen that's what we are we're citizen citizen's okay you know you call the cops you do the citizen things you do all that and I'm okay with that if someone could hey cool man hey yeah you're a citizen but if you're like a street guy you're doing dirt and then you get caught my brother told me he's like accept your stuff. Don't try to be out there dancing and enjoying the thing and then, oh, no, party's over and try to get this guy up.

That's the problem. For me, even now to this day, you know, and I have a good friend that told him, you know, and he's a good friend, he's still my friend, you know. But the reason why was very complex. And I was the judge of this. Remember now, I'm the guy that they brought these cases too when I was in prison. You know, I was the guy that said, yeah, he can't stay, you know. So I reviewed a lot of cases, guys that had sex cases who were 18 years old and their girlfriend was 17 years old.

And, you know, I mean, people, you know, that kind of thing. And you have to look at these cases and decides people fate, you know. And so I've reviewed a lot of that. And I'm going to say like this, I'm going to say that, I'm going to say that, I'm going to say that, I don't necessarily say that it was the principles that were inside my heart more so than it was, like you said, about validate my brother. He was my hero, and he instilled certain principles in me, and it's what helped me survive prison. It was not just the no-telling part. It was how you confront adversity. And because of that knowledge and the way he taught me, it made prison easy for me.

What did the Texas system teach you about prison politics that would prepare you for the federal system? Not, not at all. There's no comparison. There's no, the politics in the state completely different. I came in the TDC the third time assaulted a staff member, which I advise you is one of the worst things you can ever do. You're going to catch the worst ass whipping you've ever had in your life when you put your hands on them guards. And I did, 25 years old, a black guy told me, he called me Youngblood, and he said, Youngblood, he said, you've got to set a precedent. I really did. I'd be honest with you.

I don't think I knew what precedent meant, you know. And I figured it out, and I was like, okay, I can set precedence, you know. So I assaulted a police officer. guard there. They beat me up pretty bad. They drug me off to what's called a double door isolation cell and left me back there because I was beat up bad. And they didn't want to let me back on the compound. The gang members and some of the convicts on the yard, black, Mexican and white, got me back out because they said that the staff officer had put his hand on me. It touched me. And as soon as he touched me, I hate him. And I didn't beat him when he got on the ground.

And so they let me back out. And when they let me out, now I've been here for six months. When I first got there, I had only been there maybe a couple weeks. And the only person that I spoke to was your bus buddy. When you're on a TDC bus, you're chained to somebody. One guy, a handcuffed to him. Well, that guy, we went to the same yard together. We got off. We went to the same building together, a whole nine yards.

Well, one day, one night, and no one's talking to us. Like the other white guys, there are no one's messing with us. They want to see what you're going to do first, right? And so it's a wreck time. And it's at nighttime. We go up to, it's at nighttime. We're going to, we go up to the guard. And I'm like, hey man, you're going to let the door.

And the guard looks at me and goes, you don't want to go outside. I go, yeah, I'm going to wreck. He goes, you don't want to go out there. Young and stupid, not paying attention, nothing, not understanding what's going on. I'm like, okay, yeah, whatever, man, I'm going out there, you know. So me and my guy, his name was Mayo. He had some kind of Mayo and A's name or whatever, but we called him Mayo. And he's like, come on, we go out there.

And we go out to the rec yard. I'm still not figuring it out. And I go to the basketball court, and I look around at all the white guys in Mexican are over there, all the black people over there, and me and my buddy were in the middle of them. And I'm looking around and go, oh, we got to go. So we walk all the way around over there and it pops off. Boom, major riot. I've been here like a week, man.

Major riot. Got the yard for nine hours. They called the emergency response team. It is bad. They, they suitcase us, but naked. And there's people that were there that know what I'm talking about. They suitcase us, but naked on a wreckyard. They took the scissors, cut all our clothes off.

took flex cuffed us and suitcase us and left us like that on the yard took us back to the buildings put us in sales five to six deep like that flex cuffed like that came through a processus put us in sales random sales weren't even ourselves i went into somebody else's cell put us in a cell they put me in a cell with a dude named spanky from el paso tex didn't speak absolutely no english put me in there this dude's in there and then they come to johnny sacks johnny sacks or the the lockdown bags that they give you, you know. And so the field bosses were pushing around these carts and they passed out these sacks. Well, they ran out of sacks.

And then when they came back, they started on this cell. They skipped my cell. So I beat all the thing. And I'm a kid. I'm 25 years old. I say, hey, man, you miss me? The guy's like, you ain't getting nothing. I'm like, okay, okay.

And so I look at the spanky, the mess can do from El Paso. And he goes, he didn't speak. I swear he didn't speak no English. And all he said was burn it. It's like, burn it. All right. I'm young. I'm like, burn it.

All right. So we get the little razor blades. I put all this stuff in a pile by the door. It's other people's stuff. Whoever sell it was, I put stuff by the door. And I take the little razor blade and a pencil and I start a fire. And I put it on there. And I started a fire in the cell.

Well, it's just smoldering. It's not really burning like burning. I figured out later, you know, people tie their sheets on the door and then they burned it up or whatever. But so it's just kind of smoldering. Well, they had these nylon green, and everybody knows these jackets. They had these nylon green, like, bomber jackets, right? And I put that jacket on that fireman, and we almost died in there. Yeah, we almost died because that thing hit the fire, and when it caught on fire,

it sends these, like this stuff, this soot in the air. And it was bad, right? And I was praying for him to come put the fire out by this time, right? Because there's no air. They have these little bitty windows, right? And so we're, man, sucking air, sucking air. So the cops come and they got these water hoses on the side of the wall. And they pop it and it's like the Rocky movie, you know,

where the first blood or wherever Rambo, you know, when he's in the thing. They first shot, they hit the door and it hit underneath the door and it threw everything was there all over the walls, right? Everywhere, right? They opened the door and they just blast us, man. I mean, they're, you know, mess with us. But anyways, they come in and they take everything out. When they left, me and Spanky were sitting on steel bunks, wet boxers.

And it was me, him, wet boxers, and nothing else in the cell. They throw us to Johnny Sacks and give us our food and say, don't burn anything else. That was my first week in TDC. I spent the next six months. months on lockdown in this cell, dying of heat, because this was in South Texas, dying of heat stroke. And I'll never forget because they have a like a step down situation where, okay, phase one, phase two, phase three, phase four, after riots or stuff like that, they'll give you privileges back. And I remember one of the phases they were letting us go get our first hot meal.

And we've been eating Johnny Sacks. And Johnny Sacks were like, the breakfast would be like two biscuits. The lunch would be like a peanut butter jelly sandwich and a baloney sandwich, five prunes because they want to keep your regular. And you can eat the prune seed. So you can take the prune seed, crack it, and there's a seed inside the seed, and you can eat that. We're starving to death in this place, right? And a cookie, I think, was the other thing, or an apple or something like that. But I remember we go eat that first hot meal, and I remember sitting there.

And the greens were good, and everything was good. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm starving. And I remember someone say about kicking it off or something. Man, I was like, whoa, dude. No way. We're going to eat. And I mean, I was adamant. I was like, hey, we're eating.

Nothing's kicking off. We're going to eat first because this is ridiculous, man. And so they did all that. We get off. And then I assault the cop. So all this is happening within like a seven month, the first seven months I'm in TDC. I assault the cop. They put me in there.

then they send me to close custody. Close custody is a lion class. In TDC they have SATs, 1, 2, 3, 4, and they have line class, 1, 2, 3, 4. So line class is a lower level. You have less privileges. And I was in the close custody where they put gang members and stuff.

I wasn't a gang member, right? But because I assaulted the cop, they put me in close custody. I go to close custody. As soon as I walk in, there's a white dude in my face. Where are you from? And he's got lightning bolts on his hand.

And I go, I'm from Cloverleaf. And everybody in Texas know, you know, Houston area, they know about Cloverleaf. I'm like, I'm from Cloverleaf. He goes, oh, yeah. He goes, you know this dude? I go, yeah, I know that dude. And he goes, that's me. He's my freaking homeboy.

I was like, I mean, I've been suffering here. I mean, I've been struggling pretty hard. And this has not been an easy time for me. I'm like, dude, what are you? Why didn't you say something? You've been here this whole time? And he was like, oh, no, man. No, we don't see how you're going to act.

You know, I was like, oh, man, that's so crazy. and he was a gang member. And he's from my neighborhood. And I didn't know no gang members. I was just doing my own time, you know. And, you know, I'm a big dude, you know. I didn't have any trouble, you know. No one really, you know, I didn't get pressure or, you know,

somebody trying to get my commissary, you know. And he's like, yeah, you know, this gang, you know, and this and that. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I don't know. It's not really my thing. You know, I got your back. And either pressure. me, man, come on, bro. You know, these black dudes are taking, door knocking,

going in a cell, pressuring dudes, taking their stuff, you know, whatever. But they were only doing it to the ones they could get away with it. They weren't doing it to the Peckerwoods. And so I'm like, dude, that's none of my business. That's them dude's business. I'm doing my time. Dude's like, no.

My homeboy's like, no, I can't do that. So eventually, I let these dudes convince me to become a gang member. And I did, man. And, you know, I did so for reasons that I believe were good. I believe that we were defenders and protectors of our people. And we, you know, it was almost like the military, you know. And I did it. And when I left TDC and I went to the feds, I was like, man, I'm glad that's over.

I thought I'd never seen them people again. Really did. I thought it was like a street thing, you know, because I was in a little street deal, you know, when I was a kid. And, you know, and I thought kind of, kind of equated it to that, you know, and get to the feds and go to the feds and no one even knows them guys, never heard of them, you know. Obviously, DWBs were the gangs and the feds. Dirty white boys. Yeah, dirty white boys. That's only anybody ever heard.

You know, when I first came to the feds, it was like the predominant. And what year is this? This was, I came to TD. I got to, I left, the feds came. and picked me up out of TDC in 97. So I came to, I was in the feds in 97 was my first year. And, uh, I'm tatted up and I have a bunch of gang tattoos and stuff. And so, uh, people are like, oh yeah, it's like, yeah, you know, you know, whatever, you know, whatever. So the federal government took a charge that used to be a state charge, which is possession of a weapon and made it fed.

So all those guys, all those guys, sorry about that, all those guys came to the feds. And so here they come. And I was like, dang, man. And I realized pretty quickly that other people were going to be making decisions for me, and that wasn't a good thing. I'd already established myself in the feds. People knew me. They didn't know about the gang stuff.

They knew me. And I quickly understood that I needed to take control of the situation. The yards that I was walking, people respected me as DJ, not the gang thing, you know. And some of them had even had bad experiences with the same group and didn't like them, didn't respect them. But they knew me and respected me. And there's been many instances where guys that were in my game were extended certain courtesies because of them. by because of me, you know. And I quickly understood that this needed to be done, and I did, and started to kind of like bring everything together. And, you know, as I sit here today,

I look back and I've often looked at the way I did my time. And the things I've done. I mean, you know, you start getting a certain age, you start looking back and it's like, man, did I do this right? Did I do that right? Did I shit bag anybody? Did I do anybody dirty? You know, You know what I mean? No. No one will ever come on here or post on here that I ever did them dirty. I try to stand up for my people. I never pressured any of them.

None of them ever paid protection. None of them paid up. Never. Our members paid, but regular white guys didn't pay us protection. We had gambling tables and different things like that that we made our money from. But never, nothing like that. I didn't like it because it always made me, I don't like the AB dudes and I don't like, I don't like gang members. Let's put that out there.

I think gangs are basically a tool that the federal government of the borough prisons use to run the systems and to make things easy for them. they allow the gangs to exist. They would not exist if the Bureau of Presidents didn't want them to, but they want them to because they control the yards. It's easier for them to manipulate the gang members and the gang leaders and to get them to do what they want. And so the whole idea about gangs is that there's a philosophy that goes with the gang. The philosophy is usually based on racial ideology,

but it's never really practiced other than you're hanging out with white guys. No one's trying to educate themselves. No one's trying to further themselves. No one's trying to further you, the white guy. Well, that's what you're claiming. You're claiming you're about the Aryan race. You're about the white people. But when I got out of prison, hey, man, people were handing me drugs and guns.

Not a job. I'm looking around. They ain't there ain't a job. You can give me the dope, you can give me the guns. You can't give me a job. why are you people not working? Why are you people not have jobs? I did 23 years and the first thing you want to get me

is a bag of dope. That's how you're looking out for your people. That's, come on, man. You know what I'm saying? And so it was all a lie. It was all drag. And listen, I get phone calls to this day of dudes crying asking me what happened

because they had put themselves out there for this belief system and this thing and it didn't become what they thought it was going to be. you know, and I felt bad about it because I'm the one that convinced them to do it. I was the one of convincing them to come on to the side, you know, and it's been nothing but destructive. It didn't, it, all it did for me was cause me pain and anguish. The same people that, that were allowed to survive and do their time in prison because of my name and because of me were the same people that were trying to kill me to set me up.

up to freaking, you know, there was no love and no, you know, brotherhood and all that's all bullshit, man. This is, it's just all a lie, you know what I mean? And so like when I hear people and, you know, and I got buddies there, you know, and I consider myself an ex-game member. I didn't get exed out. I just decided that, you know, this is stupid. I mean, this is ridiculous, you know, it doesn't have the same meaning than which I originally thought it had.

And I was a big proponent for that. You know, I used to teach classes on white history. I used to teach classes on paganism, which I do all believe in all that stuff. But I also utilize it in my life. I don't just fake with it and act like it. You know, I try to perpetuate the belief system that I have into other people and get them to be better people, not to dragging them down and to try to manipulate them or get them to sell some dope over here or something like that, you know.

I want you to be better. I want you to be bigger. I want you to advance yourself. Anything that's calling you to do anything other than that is not for you. It's against you. And the gangs, it's all it is. Because that's what they, when you get out, that's all they want you to do. They want you to do their bidding.

They want you to do what the drugs or the, I don't know, the partying or anything of that nature, but not nothing about, let's get your kids together. Let's get your family together. Let's put some money in a pot and try to help out this person who's struggling. Those are all good things. And there it's just a manipulation game. You know, it's all. Yeah, I have a big problem with the gangs, man.

I'm just nowadays as I look back on it, you know, it angers me because people like you, prison should be a place of healing and correcting behaviors. It should be facilitated and problems. opt up by the government who sent you there. That's their obligation to you. When they sentenced you that time, they took on an obligation to you to rehabilitate you, to make you a better citizen when you come out. If you allow gangs to control the prisons and they do, then that's not happening. The government's fell in in their jobs. The rural prisons fell in their jobs. They're not helping you facilitate bettering yourself.

You don't have the programs in place to get you to tell. But I got out here, man, I didn't have nothing. Nothing. They didn't give me a freaking dollar. Nothing. They told me you're free. I mean, just like that. They just opened the door.

And I got out early. You know, I got seven years early. And they literally just opened the door and said, go. No systems. When I went in front of the court and all my file and I know people, I've seen some of these guys that have gotten on here. And, you know, I have all my paperwork. all my paperwork's on file.

So when I went before the court to get resentenced, because I have a Johnson case, Johnson changed a lot of things for a lot of people in the feds, let a lot of people oil. And when I went from the judge, they resentenced me to eight years. I did 23. So as soon as he said eight years, I was like, wow.

And you can Google my name, it'll come up in the court case. I stood up in court and I said, judge. I said, where's my reparations? What are you going to do for me? Because I got 11 years over. I'm over 11 years over time done. And he goes, you know what, Mr. Walsh? He goes, you're right.

We do need to do something for you. We're going to put you on three years supervised release. Ankle monitor, intense supervision, drug test, made me see a psychiatrist two times a month and a counselor four times a month. And he said, that's how we're going to support you and help you in your endeavors. That was their help. That was their help. And then they told me,

you don't have to do it. You have, and this is in court files, I have 11 years good time on the books. Can you imagine? And the court state, it's all this is court documents, the government got up and goes, what does this mean?

Does this mean that he can break the law? And as long as the guidelines is underneath the time that he has, he gets out of free jail card? And the judge said yes. This is an open court. Believe it or not. And everybody can Google it, look it up.

And the judge goes, I've never heard anything like this before, you know. So they told me, they go, oh, you don't want to do the probation or the deal? You don't have to. Violate. Go back to the county jail for a couple months and you'll get out scot-free. I told them, I'm not never, ever going back to jail, not even for a couple months. I just did 23 years. You want me to walk back in that place?

Fuck, no, dude. No way. So I got my car And I left I went to the probation officer We walked in his office And he goes he looked at me He goes I don't know what to do

I don't know what to do with you And he goes I said well I'm going to tell you what I'm going to do I'm going to go see that car out there I'm just going to get in it I'm going to drive to Oklahoma And the guy goes Oklahoma I go yep

My thought was None of them homeboys are there Does just be me And so I got in a car He goes well call me every Tuesday I'll be honest Over the past year, my fitness journey has been a little bit of a struggle.

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for more details. And remember, guys, I will never promote something to you that I don't personally use. You see me talking about Factor every day on my social media. Go try it today. I called him every Tuesday. Hey, man, I thought I was doing good. Three months. I'm in Oklahoma. I got no probation. Nobody bothered me. I'm just, I'm living it up. Three months later, and they're mad about it. They come to the door. What are you doing here? Why are you in Oklahoma? You're trying to recruit. You're doing this. You're doing this. You're doing that. I'm like, man, I'm not doing none of that. You got to go down here.

So I go to the courthouse. I go to the probation office, the downtown federal building. I go in there. They set me down. They look at me and they go, you're going to have to do this, this, this, this, this, this. And I'm just going, no problem. Well, just that another. No problem.

None. I got this. Are you sure I got this, man? Okay. So they put the ankle monitor on out. come to find out that they had the team in the office next door waiting for me to buck because they thought I was going to go fuck this and just go off based on my record so they were already suited and booted waited and they're waiting I didn't never I got told this later by my

probation officer that yeah they were geared up waiting and you were just sitting there going and people would come by because they'd only seen they'd heard all the stories and they'd seen the file So when they heard me speak, they thought, is this that guy? The guy of the, it can't be the guy, you know. And so I seen one of them look in and see me. I look and see me. I look and see him. I'm like, wow, this is not what we expected, you know. And my pro-based officer, he was a really good guy.

He was a really young guy. And you've seen my ex-wife. She was living with me. And they come in and they take. take her into another room and they leave and she goes, you know what they told me? I said, no. She goes, they asked me if I was okay. They said, do you know who he is? Do you know what he's done? This is my girl now. I mean, I'm trying to live a different life. I'm out here, you know, and they're like, just put me on blast, man, you know what I mean? And I'm like, yeah, I was upset

for a long time behind that, you know, because I'm changing my life, man, you know what I mean? Like, you have no right to do that. You know, did she know about me? Yes, she knew a little bit, you know. I told her some stuff about me, but I didn't think it was all her business to go into my personal details and stuff, you know. You decided to divulge that, you know.

And so being out, getting out after all that time, and the craziest story I'll say is this. You know, 23 years, you know, I get out, and I'm doing all the wrong things. And I go into a, bathroom, convenience store bathroom. I just got, it was the first week, and I go in there and I wash my hands. I go up to the sink, put the sofa on, go up to the sink, and I go, uh-oh, there's no knobs.

I went to jail a long time ago. There's no knobs. So I remember a Kohler commercial where they touched the top of it. So I'm like, huh, touching it, I'm touching it. I'm like, this is fucking ridiculous. I can't even wash my hands. So I step back and I'm looking at the, I'm staring at them now.

I'm going, man, wow, this work, man. And so a guy comes up, sticks his hands up and then come on. I go, what the fuck? I stick him out there. I go, this is amazing, man. That's how difficult it was. Can't even wash your fucking hands. I can't use a phone.

I don't know how to operate a freaking phone. I ain't seen a, I mean, you know, this is if it's foreign to me, any technology. I mean, to this day, I mean, most of my work is done on a laptop, but it's still kind of, you know, it's not easy, you know. But I got out and I'm like, yeah, you know, and I'm looking around. I'm telling myself, this is going to be hard, man. This is going to be really difficult because I don't know how to do anything, man, you know what I mean. I try to get a place to live and I don't have any rental history.

And I went to in when I was a kid, you know, I'm an old man now, you know, and people are looking at me like, what the, where are you, where are you been, you know? Get job application? What do you put on a job application? case, 23 years in prison. You put the kitchen. You said you worked at a restaurant. Yeah, you know, yeah. But I didn't.

I was always in the shoe, you know. So I was like, you know, I got a tire job at this tire company and I threatened the boss and got fired. And then the first job job that I had was postmates. I was delivering food because there's the only job I could get, you know, for criminal history, you know. And then I get a good job. And with the state, I worked for the Department of Mental Health and Department of Health.

I started off as a $13 an hour custodial worker. I was supposed to be a warehouse worker, but the custodial worker died like two days before I got the job. And they go, well, you're cleaning toilets. I just had a baby, and I was like, I'll do whatever I have to do. you know, so I cleaned toilets and quickly got promoted and promoted and promoted and promoted and promoted and then transferred and became material management officer in control of millions and assets. They didn't even know I'd been in prison. And I'm the guy who's all this millions are coming to me and I'm in control of all this stuff, right?

And I'm wearing dress shirt, slacks, loafers behind a desk. And I'm living in another world, man. You know what I'm saying? And I'm feeling good about myself. You know, I'm playing. I did this, man. I did this, man. Good state job, man. Whoa. And I take a trip, a business trip with my direct supervisor who was a female. None of these people know I've been in prison, right? And I got a three-button polo on. Right. I'm driving. And I go to turn. When I do, my sleeve comes up. they've seen these tattoos across my arm.

And I go, and I kind of, you know, you know, I see her look at me, I don't say nothing. She don't say anything. Next thing I know, I'll get called up to the Attorney General's office, investigator, and says, Mr. Walsh, he's looking at me, he goes, and I have a dress shirt on, he goes, we got this thing about these tattoos, this, that, another. I go, tattoos, what are you talking about, man?

It's like, yeah, you know, they said that you guys say, man, I'm not, you want me to take my shirt off for you? I said, man, we're in a freaking, I'm not taking my shirt off you, dude. Well, you don't want to let us know. I said, no, it's none of your business. What kind of tattoos I got? It has nothing to do with my job. So he's like, okay, whatever, you know, so I leave.

So I go straight to HR and I ask the HR department, I go, hey, man, what's your policy? I want to see the policies. I get the policies. I read through them, no tattoo policy. I said, okay, you know anything about this? I don't know. I don't know. Cool.

I leave. Boom. Get called to my supervisor. She fires me on my. the spot. That's a state job. You can't just fire you. I'm like, okay, no problem. What's it for? I look at it says, threat to the workplace. For what? I file. I fight it all the way. I go to EEOC, which is a division that takes care of this kind of thing. I fight them all the way. They don't want to do business. We go to mediation. They don't want to do business.

Go all the way through it. EEOC gives me the approval to sue. They say, they were wrong. Wrongful termination? Because I got unemployment. They gave me my unemployment and everything because I was wrongfully terminated. They do all that. So EEOC decides they're not going to pick the case up, which they do. But they decide they're not going to pick my case up. I'm like, okay, cool. I call every freaking lawyer in Oklahoma, Kansas, Arkansas. This is how far I would get with them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. EOC, they gave you the rights. Yes, I got my thing to sue. everything's good. Well, what was the case for?

Well, you know, I got fired for a tattoo. You got fired for a tattoo? What's the tattoo? I would tell them what the tattoo was, and they would, oh yeah, well, sorry, we don't handle those cases. No action. So losing my job changed my, I mean, that job was everything to me. You know, that's what felons do too.

Felons do that. You know, they'll, they'll, they'll, they're the hardest workers you'll get. They, they'll, you know, the good ones, you know, they'll come out and work to work for you like no one's ever worked for you before. And I love that job. Man, that job was my world. I mean, it was my career. It was like, it was validation. It was like, I did it.

Here I am. I've succeeded. I've made it out of the hellhole alive. Here I am. I'm a state worker. I mean, I understand. Most people go, oh, a state job ain't nothing. But it was to me.

You know, I'm behind a desk. We're going to computer, but I got it going on. And to be fired like that because of the tattoos and because of my past, it really just, I started mowing grass. I started doing all these side jobs. It really was the destruction of my marriage, you know what I mean? Because I took it hard. You know what I mean?

And it was hard to, it's hard to get a job. It really, you know, but I know people say, oh, there's jobs. And jobs, yeah, there is. But, man, if you got that strike against you, man, it makes it that much harder, you know. And so eventually, all that stuff happened and I wound up going back to school you know, went to school

you know, started getting certifications licenses and life is good now but it didn't in the beginning you know I kind of really thought and that's the thing I think about a lot is like how can someone do so much time

and get out and then go right back doing the same thing he was doing what What causes that? The only thing that I could come up with in my mind is that you just don't love yourself. You know, you got to love yourself, man. You know, and I didn't love myself.

I did not love myself because if I love myself, that would have been the last place that I was going to want to be. But it took the birth of my life. kids, you know, to look at it and go, that's not you anymore, you know. You're a different person now. That's not that life and the things that you did in there and everything is over, you know. And I tell people about like the Rocky movie, the First Blood or whatever when he's at the end of the movie, his general comes in there and says, it's over. And Rocky says the whole thing, it's never over. That's it. It's never over. That's it. It's never over.

it stays with you. It's like it sticks with you. And it's like your behavior, your actions, and the way you take in information from people, it's all jaded by that prison sentence. It's all jaded by those things that you've seen. You know, people, I had to be told, I had to be told that people don't mean it the way you do.

You know, people flip you off in the car. You know, I'm going to chase you. you know, I'm trying to pull over, you know what I mean, and, and fight. And my ex-wife would tell me all the time, say, they don't mean it the same way. You are looking at it completely different than they're looking at it. You need to readjust. You have to get societal rules and, you know, realize that now this is you and not carry that. That's what we all do.

You know, you do it. I know that you do it. There's things that you do with inside your daily activity that is gel-related, whether it be the way you sit at the table. And I will say one other things about that. Let me explain something about that. Let's be very clear. If you're from Texas, okay, diagnostics is transfer center. Everybody goes to that or go to their farms.

When you go to TDC, you go to diagnostics, when you walk in a child, when you walk in a child, there's tables and the guards put you're in line you sit at each table as you come in line right and then they go down this row and they go back down this row as they go back down this row as they pass that table it's been sitting there they the guards knock on it not the inmates the guards knock that means everybody gets your plates to get up out there that's where it started from I don't know disrespect that's later like the feds all the peckerwoods hit it and go but in the beginning how it started from the very first time I ever saw it was the guards telling you get your ass up out of there. So I wanted to say something about that because I heard people

talking about that. And I was like, you know, that's not the truth. But yeah, it comes from TDC is where that comes from. And then it would later evolve into the feds. The wood thing. Yeah, I mean, because we did it in the feds, you know. Now when you first got to the feds, why didn't you join another white gang? Did anyone approach you at all? Yeah, but I didn't need to, you know. I mean, at the time, I was like, I mean, I was a big dude, you know what I mean? I was a tough kid. You know, I really didn't, no, you know, and I didn't, I don't know, I wasn't interested, you know. And then when the other homeboys came, you know, I just was like, you know, I mean, it's what it is.

You're trapped in, you know what I mean? You're kind of stuck by, you know. The wisest decision, the choice that a young man can make going into prison is be really. respectful, you know, I heard your story and you spoke about, you know, the way your sentence went down and the way your time went down. Unfortunately, that's circumstances for a lot of people. The other misconception I wanted to address as well was that, you know, white guys in prison get a bad route. You know, there's this misconception that we're all, you know, we're all like vulnerable victims are, can be victimized.

And that comes from ignorance on both parts. If I look at you and assume that you're a certain way because you're a certain color, that's ignorance. That's just racism, you know. That's me projecting these racism on you, which we all, on some fundamental level, understand that the skin color does not dictate the man or who, his actions or whatever, you know. So in TDC, a lot of these people like myself, let's put it this way.

When I went to TDC, I never been around black people before. I never knew any. Where I'm from, there are none. They live in the hood. They live in their neighborhoods. We lived in these housing developments, but they lived in, you know, their little projects. When you go to TDC, everybody's coming out of these different neighborhoods. These black guys have never seen a white guy before on TV or something.

Never been around none of them. They would have these wild misconceptions that we were all rode horses or something and that we like all had money. We're all rich. We're all. And we had it easy too. Oh, yeah, we had it. It was all easy for you because you're a white guy.

You know what I mean? They say that just not knowing. You know, because they've never been around, and it's only what they hear. You know, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the way that they're being told that, oh, that's how white people are. You know, they're like, oh, that's how white people are. And I'm from the freaking hood. I mean, we were poor, you know what I mean?

Like, we didn't have shit, man, you know what I'm saying? And like, I was like, and as far as being soft, man, you know, we, you know, we, we were like that, you know what I'm saying? And if you ask a lot of honest people in the feds, you didn't, you know, you didn't want to mess with the white guy, dude. You know, you're in the max into pins. You're going to get stabbed. And that's the, and really, and we're outnumbered, obviously, you know what I mean?

Why did we make it? Why? Because they knew we were unstabbed them. They knew we all carried knives. Everybody, I carried, I always had a knife. Everybody, everybody around me had a knife, and we're ready to use them. You know what I mean? Because we're not going to get victimized here.

You know what I'm saying? And we carried a lot of respect. There'll be people, I'll be honest with you, I'll tell you one story. And I don't like to tell a war story. I told myself, I'm going to tell a lot of war stories here because I want to talk about redemption, change as possible. What you think today will not necessarily be true tomorrow. So you cannot invest all into that one thing that's happening in the moment and not in projecting into a future invest into that. Let it overwhelm you the problems of the day or your

situation, a way you're looking at it. You can open up a book today and it'll read one thing, and open a book tomorrow and it'll say something different just because of your perspective. So people will be down. They'll come out here. They'll get out of prison and they're like, my life is not going to change. It's going to be in a certain situation, circumstances. So they make decisions based off of that. Well, how are you making a decision based off that when it's evolving? It's always changing. Don't give up. If you want something, if you want to succeed and you want to be successful, whatever it is, what are you doing to make that happen? Are you just sitting there expecting it to happen? Or are you applying yourself and you're doing? What moves have you made

today to make that future possible? A lot of these guys get out, they were like me. I didn't think that I could be a citizen. I didn't think this opportunity was available with me. If someone had set me down, it's like, hey, man, you can be a citizen. This is a real world for you. man, I would have embraced that. How many other dudes are like that? How many other guys get out of prison and have lived a certain existence when they went in don't know what's available to them out here

as far as you can do whatever you want. You can have the life you want, but you've got to earn it, you've got to work for it. You've got to let that stuff go. You've got to let the pass go. But that's the main character. I mean, the main story of this whole thing for me is talking about that.

But I want to say about the, black, white interaction because I know you know about the pins and it's not allowed. You can't talk to them. You can't eat with them. You can't sit with them. You can't live with them.

You can't even, you are not supposed to be associating with them. Right. I did because I could. But I went to a prison and I walked into the block and this is how, this is what it means to be white

or be someone who is what we call front lining. I walk into the block brand new, I just get there that day. I walk in and it was a soft yard for a penitentiary. But anyways, I go in, I walk in, and as soon as I look, I see all the TVs. I don't see not one white TV. That's a problem.

I see one down here with a white guy and some black guys and I'm like, it's a problem. So I go into my cell, my cellie, never a good sign when a white guy is in his bunk, reading a book. during the day with his shoes off. That tells you he ain't on point. He don't want no trouble. That's that, right? So I look at him, I go, hey, man, where's white TV?

I don't even know his name. I throw my mat down. I look at a dude goes, where's the white TV? The dude goes, your homeboy sold it for dope. Oh, that's great. Now I mean, that's a really bad situation.

So I'm like, that figures. So I go, you got a knife? He goes, no. It's getting better and better. I walk out, straight out the range, walk down to do, walk down to the TV, bing, bink, bink, country music videos. And they were mad about it. Let me tell you, hey, dudes started coming out of the doors. They were pissed. DC blacks, and a lot of them, and they're upset. So they come running out and everything. I ain't even got a knife. They don't know that. They think I got a knife. So they come out there

and they're hurrah and woo-woo-woo and woo-woo-wa and everything. So there's a guy. Everybody knows. His name's Windale. They called him Big Dog. He was a shot car for the D.C.'s. Oh, Windale. And a lot of people know Windell. Big Dog.

So Big Dog come out, and this guy was, I don't know, 6-4, 280, 290, big dude, man, you know. He opens the door and he goes, hey, Wood, let me holler at you. It's like, here we go. You know, let's do this. this, you know. So I walk over there, you're not supposed to go in a cell. You're not as supposed to go in a cell. You're not supposed to go in a cell. Never going to cell. I went in a cell and the guy looked at me and goes, you got that coming. He goes, that's your TV. He goes,

I'm not going to stand up for nobody else. He goes, but you stood up for that? That's yours. He opened the door and goes, that's his TV. And that was it. So as stupid as I was, and as tough as I was, and as much backup as I had, I wouldn't have made it if it wasn't for certain other races, I wouldn't have made it because they outnumber you. You know, it's a black dude. If he didn't back my play, they'd kill me, no doubt. I had no wind. I wasn't going to win. So he, he, because of him, and it wasn't just him, there was other instances. There was other black dudes who stood up for me, who stepped up when I threw myself out there and they were like, you know, And they stood up for me, man.

I were like, no, no, no, he's got that coming. You know what I mean? Mexican, same way. Hey, man, he's got that coming. So we had a really good relationship. I had a really solid relationship with a lot of black dudes, Crips, bloods, a lot of Mexican dudes, a lot of gang members. I had a lot of respect.

And a lot of them know me, and I got along really good. And honestly, there's probably multiple times I don't even know about that people were going to kill me and it didn't go through because of other races. How did the woods get along with the arians or other white gangs? Pretty much like I personally, okay, look, the AB dudes are trash, in my opinion. They're dope fiend scumbags who prey on their own people. Most of the gangs are that way. Most white gangs are scumbag praying on other whites, making them pay protection

and freaking just dirt bagging them, making their, time tough you know these are not men building other men these are men praying on other men these are predators you know what i mean and so i don't like bullies i've never liked them you know uh and so like for me and and i'm in the system i am known to hate a certain one certain specific group a lot you know what i mean and they all know it you know and uh so you know for me i i typically didn't get along. I didn't typically get along with anybody, be honest with you. I mean, you know, I didn't have very many friends.

I didn't think that was a place to make friends. I mean, you know, to be honest with you, I mean, Johnny, you know, I know, I know some other groups that belong, guys that belong to other groups that I associated with. Most of the guys that had friends with were just independent white guys, just regular old white convicts. Most of my friends were that. Most of my friends, I don't, I have a couple of friends that are gang members or ex-game members, but most of my, in there I got criticized a lot.

because I've got good friends of this day. They're black dudes that I did time with. I mean, I was at big, I was a lot of prisons. All the crazy prisons you heard about, I was in all those. Florence, USP, Big Sandy, Pollack, Louisiana, all of those. I was in Lee County, freaking, oh, man, Hayes, I'm not freaking, the gang unit, Lewisburg Smooth program, freaking Canaan, USP Canaan, just a bunch of them, right?

And I was at Big Sandy, which Big Sandy, it's a popping little spot, you know what I'm saying, a lot of stuff going on. Then I was at, where was that, the one, that was, where was that with the black dude? He was a black mafia. Face is his name. A little dude from Missouri. It was Big Sandy. Yeah, it was Big Sandy. So in Big Sandy, in every penitentiary yard, the whites have a TV, black have, you know, like that.

you know so the white's TV was right here in the dirty south which is you know Florida and all the dudes they were right here and I'm sitting there and your chair takes up four squares one chair four squares that's your four square right so my four square everybody knew where my chair was was the very back in the corner set my chair there so a new black guy comes in and nobody said around me I was a miserable bastard no one liked me you know what I was a miserable dude right and so this black man sits down right next to me so there's two squares because there's a hallway and there's two squares that's that's that separate us and he says his chair right there and I kind of look at him like all right whatever don't say nothing I think about maybe a day goes by and I'm sitting

there and a black kid comes across the chairs and cuts through the chairs that's a no no no no right there i mean you get killed for that you know and so i stand up because he cut through my chairs my the white area right so i stood up and as soon as i go to stand up this dude never said a word to me he goes i got that and got and this dude's about face is about i don't want to be mean i'm going to say he's let's be nice and say he's 5-7 5-8 which i think that's stretching. He's the little guy. But a dangerous dude gets up, walks in and follows this big kid, opens the door and goes right in there with him. Next day, I know the kid comes out and comes to me and goes, hey man, I apologize. I'm so sorry. I didn't mean, I didn't know. I wasn't supposed

to cut the chairs. I'm sorry. And the dude leaves. Me and this guy, I broke bread with this guy, which is a no-no. You know, I've eaten with this guy. No one was going to say anything to me because they were punk-ass, mull-hors, but me and him's buddy, to this day, he calls me from prison still. this is my guy. He's my friend. And we did a lot of, we did a lot of time together. It's my guy, right?

He's a black dude. And so most people, they assume they see people like me in prison, they hear about the stories about in prison, la, la, la, la, la. You know, and I know, prison has its own economy. Okay.

Now, you know, and I know, everybody wants that money to keep flowing, right? So don't you think that the people who are controlling the vibe that we don't talk? that we're not doing business together. We did business together. We're doing business.

We're doing business. We're making money. You know what I'm saying? You know how much money I got? I had a bank account when I got out. You know what I mean? Because I made money in there. You're making money. If you're a Mexican dude,

you think I'm not going to mess with you because you're a Mexican dude? You have no customers. You might have the drugs or you might have what I need. You can't be all I'm just all white. It's going to be all white. Come on, man. You're in prison. You think that that's really the, that's not the reality.

Now, it's a reality for a lot of people, obviously. But, like, when you get to a certain, you know, the shot callers and the people are making decisions up, we all do business together, man. We all know each other. I mean, we're doing business in the streets, a lot of us, together. Black dudes, white guys, basicans, you know what I mean? So, like, that's a, that's not even true.

That's, but again, as, and that's the, what's so important about all this is, everybody's time's different. you and I can go in the same block together, and your time won't be like my time. I mean, it's just the way it is. And I dictated a lot of my time. I mean, you know, I did time, I did time in which a way that I should not have been allowed to do it.

I have privileges that I shouldn't have had. I was treated a certain way, and I don't think that it's right. I think that everybody should be treated the same. did you get to that point going into the federal system? I was stupid. I told you that before. When I'm, when I tell you, Ian, and people will tell you, you know, I, I, I had this weird,

and I'm not a tough guy. I'll say that again, but so let's say, for instance, if you and I were walking down the yard and you bumped into me and it got whatever happened, whatever happened, I went to my cell, my mind. would not allow me to sleep until I took care of it. I would grit on it. I would sit and pace and just, oh,

until I checked you, until I made sure you understood that, you know what I mean? And so that's how I did it. That's how I did. My whole sentence was derived from just, you know, the precedent, setting the precedent,

you know, and listen, I ain't even been stabbed before, which is amazing, considering that I was a shot call, at these max yards and I never got stabbed. I never got stabbed because I treat everybody respectfully. Every man gets respect from me.

I don't care what color you are. You get respect. You're not going to, I'm not going to let you run over me, but I'm going to initially give you that respect and hope that you'll return it. You know, so that's how, I mean, the power that, I mean, yeah, of course you've got to be a tough dude. of course you've got to be able to fight.

Of course, there has to be a level of violence that you're going to bring to the table. And I think that a lot of guys, and I had killers around me. You know, I mean, I had killers around me. You know, there's, you know, that gives you a lot of play too, you know, and I think that look what you're dealing with. And, I mean, most of the people that you interact with,

And I can name a handful that were intellectually superior to me, a handful. But the majority of the people were very uneducated and easily manipulated and maneuvered. You know, for people like me, yeah, I've read freaking Nietzsche and any kind of philosophy or psychology or freaking history book. I've read thousands of books, dude. Thousands of books. I mean, I went from like a fifth grade education to, you know, I'm pretty educated. dude now. I've read a lot of books. I've evolved a lot. And Seg time and being in the shoe allowed me to do that, you know. But a lot of those guys in there are guys that are, you know,

you know, I don't want to sound, it sounds mean, but you know, drugs is a motherfucker, man. I mean, it addles the brain, man, you know what I mean? So it didn't take a lot to, to, to, you know, to, you know, to be the guy, you know what I mean? I mean, I don't do drugs. I don't drink alcohol. I have a moral fiber, you know, I have certain belief systems and I stick to it and I believe in it. And so, I mean, that pretty much gets you a lot. I mean, it gets you a long way in there, you know what I mean? If you, because other people see that conviction in you. You know, I wasn't fucking nobody over, dude. I wasn't dirt bagging nobody. I wasn't, hey, give me a bag of coffee, punk. I wasn't doing that, dude. I didn't treat people that way.

Now, that I was I friendly? I wasn't friendly, but I wasn't pressuring them. And every mother frickin' knows that if something was to go down, I was there. I was right there. I got your back. I'm there. So, you know, that was a lot. And again, I really don't know.

I really don't know the real answer for why. I would, a combination of everything, I think. You know what I mean? I don't think that there was anything special, special about me. other than being just slightly more educated than everybody else and maybe being just a little bit meaner or something, you know. But other than that, or just really wishing people, or another thing, it's like, I always try to keep people out of trouble.

You know, I got some crash dummies around me, man. You know, they want to stab everything, you know what I'm saying? And just, you know, being that guy that's that voice is like, come on, man. We're not doing that. doing that. You know what I'm saying? And I was one of those guys that when I first went to the feds, everybody wanted to stab a black dude. Everybody was like, I'll get a black dude, you know. And in TDC, they used to have, uh, the old school guys got these tattoos called bones. And the only way you could get your bones is that get on a black guy and stab him and try to kill him, right? I get to the feds, you know, and I'm hearing all these dudes and you know, they got these, all these guys want to be dad. I want to be down.

I want to be down. I want to be down. And I was the guy that, and I am known for a couple things. And one of them is, if you got a sex case, run and hide. Because I'm going to find you and we're going to deal with you. And I made it that a point to where when guys would come up there to complain about a black dude did this, he's rapping or he's doing whatever. I go, that dude's a sex offender and he's white. You're going to overlook the sex offender white guy to look at the black dude is just rapping?

rapping? I don't think so. Get the sex offender. You know, so when dudes came to me and was like, hey, man, I want to be down. I want to be down. Okay, here. Here's this. Go handle that. And then you'll be down. So I made it to the point to where even the guards would come to us and were like, they were cool with it. You know, we're getting sex offenders. We're getting child molesters, man. They were, hey, man, we're banging these dudes out and they're letting us right back out. What about the ones like you were describing earlier where they're 18 and the first of 17? What do you do with them. You let them make it.

I did. You keep them. Yes, sir. Yeah. Because, I mean, you can't do that. You know what I mean? Like, you know, there's other cases. I have a good friend that's in Houston now.

I mean, they wanted to kill him. I went to Florence, Colorado. I got there and they'd come to me and I was like, man, we're going to kill this dude. And I just got there. And Florence was a, not a good spot. And I'm like, what are you going to kill him for? He's like, well, he, you know, him and his brother, his brother was a member. And he had said something about his brother.

And it was some, you know, these guys. I mean, it wasn't ratting. You know what I mean? It was his fucking brother. You know what I mean? And these dudes just wanted to stab something. They just wanted to kill something, right? And the kid's one of my best friends, you know, to this day.

He's a successful businessman with a freaking awesome family. And he loves me. I'm sure he really loves me, you know what I mean? Because he knows that they wanted to kill him. And he tells me to this day, he's like, man, you know, thank you. You know what I mean? Because they were going to get him, you know? But it's boring in there.

It's so boring and people are looking for any type of activity and a new dude gets in there. He's fresh meat. He's looking like a victim. And so people will do things like that. And I've seen it happen. I mean, we've had guys. I mean, oh, man, dude. I mean, I've seen some crazy things.

I mean, I've seen a guy. I've seen a, at Pollock. I've seen a Muslim get there who was an ethnic Muslim. He was Arabic, you know. And they had a bunch of, more Muslims there black Muslims you know, black Muslims, you know.

And the ethnic Muslim got there and was like, you eat pork, you do this, you do that. This ain't no joke. They canoot him out, you know what canoe is, right? No, what is that? A canoe is like the stretchers. You ever seen the ones that are on the wall? Oh yeah, yeah. Those are called, we call them canoes

because, you know, they kind of shape like canoe. The canoot him out, but they did it in a blanket. So they just, you know, demolished this dude, put him in a blanket, and then And each dude on each side carry the blanket, each dude. And they carried him up right across the yard in this blanket and dumped him right in front the lieutenant's office.

Like, hey, come get this dude. You know what I mean? Like, go on. Yeah. But they'll do something like that over that, but then they'll protect sex offenders. Absolutely. Why is that? It's the craziest thing, man.

And that's another thing about people don't realize. And the white guys, okay, so let's diverse the differences in the races. A white guy comes into the federal prison. at the max. He comes in there. He has a sex case. He will get dealt with harshly if he's white. Now, if he's black or even Hispanic, he gets a pass. The white guy comes in, gets caught with his dick in his hand. He will be slaughtered. They will butcher him. He will get done so dirty, dude. Black and Mexican does it,

not a big deal. White guy can't get away with that kind of thing. You know, because we, we police it. We, we were big on that, you know what I mean? And so, like, there are, now the Hispanics, the Mexicans, they are, I've often felt sorry for them, some of them, because you're like, man, God, dang, them dudes got it tough, man, you know what I mean?

Because they're, they're all in them dudes. Hey, them guys are. I mean, they get no breathing room, no break. You're a white guy, you can get a, you can get, they'll give you some breathing room, man. Like, white guys will be like, ah, you know, whatever, I mean. But the Mexicans, they're like, oh, no, bro, you're, you're, you're in. You know what I mean? You're in.

You're a Mexican, you're in, you know? So I've always kind of felt kind of a little sympathy for them, you know, because of what they do at a time. But a white guy, man, it's, it's a tough deal, man. It's a, it's a, especially if you're, like, I mean, I want to say especially if you're, a, you know, and one other thing I want to say, too, white boy is not a good thing, okay? If someone call it a white boy, they're calling you a bitch, okay?

I don't know how many times I've heard these dudes get on these podcasts, and it really pisses me off because I don't, I never let anybody call me white boy. I'm not a, I'm not a white boy. In prison, in TDC, they called you wood or peckerwood. They never called you white boy. They called you white boy. I mean, they're fixed to fuck you, you know. So I hear people get on here and say the white boy, and I even see people have shirts and

saying white boy and this and they. I'm like, no one ever called me that. That's like, think about it. Do you think they're trying to be nice to you when they're calling you white boy? You think that's like some kind of good moniker? It ain't. It ain't. It ain't.

It's a derogatory comment about you. And so I never, I mean, you're going to call him black boy? You know. That's what I'm saying. So like, I never allowed it. I never allowed it. They called me wood a lot, or pecker wood. And it was funny because I remember one time I got in this conflict with this guy,

he called me a cracker. And he was like, like, he thought that I was going to be mad. And I was like, yeah, okay, all right, yeah, I guess I am kind of a cracker, I guess. You know what I mean? But like, for me, you know, and I'm all blasted out. So, you know, I got a guy hanging on my leg and white power across my back. And I think I have like 135 swasticles on my body. you know, it's, and I take my shirt off, it's people get silent, you know what I mean. And so,

you know, I got treated differently, you know, because of it, you know what I mean? And sometimes good, sometimes bad, you know. What did that mean to you at the time when you got that all over your body? Honestly, I was setting that precedent, man, you know, setting that precedent, you know. It meant that it was a, it was your initial, a conversation with me without talking to me, knowing who I was, what I was about. So it kept a lot of people away. All those fake-ass dudes, like all the black dudes that were convicts, they loved it because they knew what came with it.

I was going to take care of my business. I wasn't going to play no games. I was going to be about it. You know what I mean? And so it kind of like was that, you know, stay away from me, deal. You know what I mean? And I, you know, I, I, do I, did I believe in the principles of it? Yes, I did.

Yes. And I still do. You know, I mean, I still don't think there's anything wrong with being proud of who you are. You know, I don't admonish other people or I'm not trying to hold anybody else down. I just, you know, I've read history. I think this has been, I'm pretty proud of it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't see anything wrong with it, you know?

And so, for me, the swastika is not. not a, it's a Thor's hammer in motion. It means perpetual movement. If you look at the it's a hammer, each one of those little links is a hammer and it's going clockwise, okay? So to me that it meant self-improvement. It meant onward and upward. It means being better tomorrow than you were today. So that's the way I always looked at it. I approached it in that way, and I taught it in that way that it was about being a better man, evolving, you know,

nothing in nature stays stagnant. It's always growing, it's always moving, it's always going forward. And I believe that about ourselves. And especially in there, you know what I mean? You see the guys

will lay around and watch TV. I didn't watch TV. I had a TV. I made sure of that. But it stayed on History Channel or Discovery Channel. That's it. I didn't let them do as well.

I didn't let them do as well. And a lot of guys hated me. I wouldn't let them. watch the dumb stuff, man. I talked trash, dude. Like, I was a big proponent, you know, because I was always believed that it was my duty to teach, to be someone that was there to show the guys the way and lead by example. And, you know, I felt like I did that, you know, that's why I quit, I quit drinking in prison because of a riot that happened. And I was going to be able to tell other people what to do if I was doing it myself. So I quit drinking. I was like, okay, no more

drinking and now you're not drinking either you know what i mean so but yeah i think was more of that i mean i think it was like you know i i believe that it was a good thing you know i i uh you know now that i have them and i'm covered and i got kids and stuff and you know um i wish i didn't have them i wish i didn't had them and you know i got them in a i got them in a time of my life where i was a different person you know what i mean and uh it was a reflection of who who i was at the time, but not who I am now. And so I have to live with it. You know what I mean? And, you know, it's, it's something I got to deal with, you know, can't go, you know, I don't, uh, I don't like to go places with my kids, you know, the swim areas, you know, uh, that, you know, I take my shirt

off or something like that, you know, or even when I wear my shorts, you know, people are like staring at me and stuff, you know, and so, but, you know, it's a, uh, I look at it as, something that God gave me to remind myself of the situation, circumstances, which I found myself in, and the way I conducted myself. And, you know, when I left, I looked at it, and I reviewed it not too long ago was going over everything in my mind about the way I treated people and the way I acted in there and the things I did. And, you know, I don't feel bad about it. I feel good about it. I don't look at any individual and say, did I do this person dirty? I didn't. I don't feel like that, you know, the only problem that I have with what I did was the gang stuff. That's it.

Only because I, because of me, people were led down the wrong way. Because of me, people followed me. And I don't think I led them in the right direction. And that's the only thing that kind of bothers me. But we were all doing what we were doing, you know what I mean. And, you know, the gang thing was just, I don't know, you know, I feel bad about it. So if the woods were technically independence, how did it become a gang over time? Well, the wood pile was a softball game, a softball team at Three Rivers. That's where the dirty white boys came from was the wood pile and became the dirty white boys and all that. And I haven't never mentioned the gang that I was involved in, obviously.

And I don't, I don't want to let anybody get any hype of, off of what I'm saying and I don't want anyone to get any props off of it. It's including the group. I don't want people look because that's what happened. That's how a lot of this happened is with people, they followed me down the wrong hole, you know, and I don't want anyone to do that or get any kind of props off of what I'm talking about now. But the group that I belong to, like all Texas gangs. Let's put it this way. All Texas gangs came into existence because of the Ruez bill.

The Ruez bill overturned the way in which the Texas Department of Corrections ran their facilities. In the 70s, Texas Department of Corrections run their facilities using turnkeys and building attendants. I don't know if you're familiar with them. A turnkey and a building attendant is an inmate guard. That's how the prisons were run before. The inmates passed out the mail. They had the keys to the prison. They unlocked doors.

They whipped your ass. If you got a line, there were no gangs, none. Ruiz came in. It was a bill that was passed. And it overhauled the whole system. So, here arrives the 80s. There's a vacuum in the Texas Department. Corrections where who's doing the hustles, who runs the kitchen, who runs laundry, who

run, you know, who's running stuff. Gang started happening, you know. The group that I was involved with came in in 85, right? I became a member in 10 years later, 95, which I would like to say was like the second generation of the whole deal. And along with my group came another group, white group, you know, the ABTs. And there was conflict immediately and power struggles, you know. The Mexicans had their own power struggles between the Texas mafia and the pistoleros and, I mean,

Baucos. I mean, there were so many Mexican gangs at the time and towns and cars and stuff. But it was just basically It just flipped from the turnkey building attendants To gang members Who was running and controlling the yards Because obviously we've discussed it The prisons are not running anything

They're just there You know what I mean? They're letting the inmates run everything So but yeah that's how the gangs got started That's filling the power void Was the way they got started in Texas And when it moved to the feds it just kind of because of, it grew, I think, because the existing gang, which would have been the brand,

were not on the yards. And so you had all these other gang members coming from all these different states. And that's why you have so many gang members in feds. There's a lot of different gangs, a lot of different white gangs. And none of them get along. So, but now individual white guys, like your staff are still considered a Packerwood. That's not a gang. a pecker. No, no, you're just a wood. That means you're a white guy who will get down.

That just means you're a wood. You're a white guy who will fight. So an Aryan brotherhood guy could be a wood. Just like another white gang could be a wood. Any white dude can be a wood. Any white guy is a peckerwood. That's what we were called. I mean, all, you know, that's all the blacks or Mexicans, whatever, they just called you wood or peckerwood. You know what I mean? So that's, yeah, it's, anybody can be a wood. As long as you're a get down type guy and you're going to stand up for yourself, you're a wood, we're a wood. So did you come into the feds already in a gang? Yes.

Okay. I was a gang member from Texas from the state joint. I was a gang member from TDC. I just, like I said, when I left TDC, I kind of thought that it was over. Could you have stayed independent in the feds? I mean, I could have done what I wanted. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, of course. Yeah. The one who's most violent can decide what he wants. I mean, I just, you know, I just carried it on because I was already a part of it, I guess, you know. And I was like, okay, well, you know, this is what it is, you know. And so, yeah, you could have, I could have easily said no, but in there you have so little control.

That's all you want is some kind of control over something, over your environment some way. And I quickly understood that I could use that to my advantage. advantage that, you know, you've got to be smart, you know what I mean? And, you know, for me, it was like, okay, well, this is what it is, you know. I'm going to use the tools that are available to me, you know what I mean? And that's what I did. I mean, I didn't, I knew when, before I got out of prison that I was done, I knew that I was in the gang unit, sitting in the gang unit going, man, if I ever make it out of here,

this is, I'm over this, man, you know what I mean? Because it was heartache. It was just heartache, man. I mean, for instance, these people that you're dealing with are some of the most treacherous evil people you'll ever deal with. I mean, you know, these people are like,

I've been in a cell, and I'm not going to say this guy's name. He's an ADX, life sentence will never get out. And he was reputed to be one of my main lieutenants. So this guy, we're in a shoe cell together, and we did a bunch of shoe time together, And we're in there. It's the early days when I first came to the max yard.

I came from a medium. I canoed a child molester out of there at El Reno. And they sent me from there. I was 25. They sent me to the max because of the assault. And when I got to the max, there was some homeboys there. Like about eight or nine of them. There's a lot of them, right?

It was the first yard. I've been on with any homeboys since TEC. And I get there, and there's some people there. And they're hating on me. a little bit, you know what I mean, and this, that, another, or whatever, because I don't do drugs, and I'm against it. And so they hated it on me, and so they sent one of their little guys down there, and I beat him up and sent him back up there, and then they were going to stab me and all kinds of stuff, oh, this bullcrap. Anyways, we go through it, and we're in a hole. I'm in the bucket,

and I'm with this other guy and some other guys. We're in there, and I'm sitting at this little writing table. And in the shoe, they got these little bitty tables and this little chair that swings over and you're sitting there and I'm sitting there. I'm a big guy. I'm like 280, 290 at the time. And I could barely fit in this thing, man. And I remember sitting there and I'm writing something and the one homeboy jumps on my back and starts choking me out. Gets on my back and gets me a choke hole and starts choking me. Well, I can't get up. I'm stuck in this goddamn little chair. I'm so big, it's hard for me to get out. And so eventually I get up and I'm swinging this dude around and I'm almost there. You know, I can feel it coming in. You can feel it. You

know, the edges start closing in, you know, and I'm almost there, I'm almost there, and I get the dude off of me. And he was quite a bit smaller than me, and I finally get the guy off of me, and I just start pounding the dude, right? And the dude starts screaming, oh, brother, oh, brother, brother, whatever, you know. So I stopped beating this dude up, and I look down with the guy. And he's a psychopath, this guy, he's a killer, you know, and he looks up at me, he goes, And I remember that look at this weird look that he always had, and he was a crazy motherfucker this guy. But he looked at me, he goes, I almost got you, didn't I?

I almost got you. And that's what you had to deal with. You never knew. You never knew one of these motherfuckers, you know, what they were going to do. I mean, if you were next, I mean, they were literally, and it was that cutthroat with your own people. You know, it was that cutthroat that they would try to kill you. And they did a couple times.

They try to kill me a couple times. But, you know, they didn't work out for them. You know what I mean? But, yeah, that's how treacherous that thing is. You know, and I've seen them do some dirty shit, man. You're killing women and just things are against my beliefs. You know, you're not supposed to hurt a civilian. You're not supposed to hurt a woman and child on any circumstances.

And some of these dudes, you know, they don't get a fuck about that, man. I'm saying? They don't care. They just want to do dope and kill people and shit, you know what I'm saying? No, couldn't the federal prison system have avoided all of this if they saw, say guys like yourself coming into the system, if that gang didn't even exist in the federal system yet? Yeah, they could have.

They could do it now. You could stop all gang members. You could kill, you could do it. You could destroy them. It's really easy. You just take all the shot collars and take them to a child molester yard. They got those protective custody child molester yards. Just go stick them all over there.

Who are they going to recruit? A bunch of fucking child molesters. Put them on a range and a lockdown range, where everybody on the range, is child molesters, but them. But doesn't when you take one away, another one, sprouts? In some regards it does. But look what it did to the brand.

Look how it devastated the brand. Pelican Bay tore them dudes out the frame. They're not big. They're nothing. They're not, there might be a couple of brand dudes on the yards in the pins anywhere in a federal system, a couple of them.

And they're going to mind. They're going to do what they're told to do. So they did that. When they put them all them dudes down like that, that controlled it. And they could do the same thing through the feds. They got plenty of facilities. The Lewisburg Smooth program, that's all that is. It's a bunch of people who stab people and gang members over there.

And they lock them all down. But guess what? They're recruiting. Because it's all gang members on people that fucking stab people. You just put all them in the same yard. Congratulations. You didn't do shit. But don't these guys still manage to call shots even from solitary and stuff?

Yeah, absolutely. 100%. 100%. Start snagging them off the yards and start breaking their wheel and it will end quickly. I'm telling you, but they don't want to.

They don't want that. The Bureau of Prisons do not want there to be no gangs. How many people realize, how many people know that segregation is not a policy in the feds? Segregation is not a policy.

The feds do, if you look up in the federal, there is no segregation until you go to the max. Now, why do the feds put chomos and say people that snitch on a yard with people that are against that. Why do they do that? Good question. Well, you remember, well, you don't remember, but back in the day, the feds used to only send

certain people to the max. You had to be a certain age, and you had to have a certain amount of time. Well, what that does is there's six of us here. We're all killers. kind of iffy about walking into that building you're a guard knowing all six of them dudes are killers okay now all these six killers can conspire and do all kinds of stuff like that throw a couple of lames in there

it helps okay keeps things quelled down you know you can't put all killers on one yard you're gonna have a bunch of killings you gotta throw some fish in there you got to throw some other some other dilute the pond okay you have to dilute it

because you can't have it all in one strength than one level. Then everybody can come together. They want division. They don't want people to come together. I got sent to the gang unit for having too much control and too much power over the federal yards. They sent me to the gang unit. I didn't have a shot. I didn't stab nobody. I didn't do anything. They just said that I had too much sway over the federal yards just because I didn't divide. I didn't divide. I always communicated with people.

Black, Mexican, didn't matter. I mean, I was in Lee County. There's a lot of people know this story. I was in Lee County, and there's probably 15 Tango Blast and like 13 of my guys on one range in the shoe. All Tango Blas on one side, all my guys going up the other side.

We hear something going, we're on upstairs. We hear something going on downstairs and Johnny Bart knows about this. They're going, they got the team suited up and they're going in each cell and they're taking the radios from each cell. Well, they holler up at us and they're like, hey man, they're taking radios.

It's like, oh, cool, man, no problem. I holler up my buddies, I said, flag it, everybody put your flags up. So it's in the shoe, you put your, you cover your windows, flag. We call them flags. So flagging up. So we put our flags on there.

So the police come down, they come right to my cell. Mr. Walsh. Rush, I open the flag. I said, what's up, man? He says, hey, I said, we can't do nothing for you, man. I said, we're keeping our fucking radios. Every one of us. The philosophy or the thought processes behind this is, these fat bastards are going to get tired after about three or four cells. I mean, and I got a couple buddies now. They're going to go hard, you know what I mean? So it's going to take them a long time. You know what I mean? And they know it. That's why they don't want you to be together. Okay. So they didn't realize,

I had a great relationship with the Tango Blass. As soon as I hollered, they had a Tango Blass named Mark, and he was on there. And he hollered down at me, what are you doing? I was like, hey man, we're not taking, we're going to fuck that. And he told all his homeboys, okay, flag up. So the whole shoe range, we're going to take the team.

And they come down there, politicking. So they send the lieutenant and the captain down there, and they come to my cell and are like, hey, Mr. Walsh, if you would just let us cuff you up and take you out of your cell, we won't take your radio. Absolutely. Boom, cuffed up. They went in there,

they didn't take nothing, came back out. Y'all hello to everybody. They didn't take nobody's radio. So in Lee County, the top range had the radio and the bottom range didn't. Because we stuck together. We stuck together,

all races, you know what I mean? So that's why. They don't want that to be the prison yard, to where we can come together and be on that same level and say, you know what, fuck this. They don't want that. So they will throw.

I mean, I've been on a prison yard. I was at Florence Colorado, a horrible place. And that white kid comes out. We go up on him like, what's up, man, who are you from? Where are you from? What's that? This guy got five motherfucking years. Five years.

He's 18 years old. I walked him right back up to the lieutenant's office. Let's go. We're walking right by saying, man. he don't belong here. He don't, he, he, he's not going to make it. He does not belong here. Y'all fucked up, you know.

They don't care. They don't, I seen them put a rival gang member, Big Sandy, they took a rival gang member who was a medium custody, wasn't supposed to be in a pen, and put him in the cell with another rival gang member who had killed. one of this dude's homeboys put him in a cell with them they come out to the rec yard and they're like you know and i'm like no i'm fighting my case i don't want no trouble i mean i am i am in my case

i think i'm fixing it's released i'm oh man i'm these dudes were talking about killing and and she i'm like oh no we're not killing nothing no so we'll go out to the rec yard and they're they're going to do this or going to do that i say man we're not doing that man we're not doing that And they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They go and fucking butcher this dude. They don't listen to me. They go and butcher the dude. We all get locked up.

I get locked up. I'm in back there. I'm pissed. You know, because these dudes got me jammed up. And now they're trying to charge me because I'm the shy power, supposedly. And these guys got to be following me. But that's not the way it really works. We don't really, our group didn't dictate.

You know, it didn't really work like that. You know, I mean, you're a member. I'm a member. I might be the guy that's the old OG, you know, whatever, but I can't just dictate to you. If you say you want to go kill somebody, I can't say, you can't go kill that guy. You know, it don't work like that.

But they assumed that it did. They assumed that I must be controlling all these guys. These guys are killers, man. They don't give a shit about what you're talking about. If he wants to go kill this dude, he's going to go kill him, you know what I mean? And so they did what they did, you know what I mean? And it wound up almost getting me more time, you know. I mean, they almost got me more time.

So what do you actually have sway over then as a shot call or is it more just being the facilitator with the other gangs? That, for the most part, is your biggest thing. You're the spokesperson. You're the person who talks to other gangs. You're the one who's the head, the one who's thinking, the one who, you know, make certain decisions, you know what I mean? So, yeah, we do, do definitely.

And don't get me wrong, people listen to me because they respected me. And so they naturally would listen to me anyways, you know what I mean? but certain circumstances and with certain individuals, these two individuals in particular, they were, they're a psychopaths and they don't care. They just wanted to kill some shit. And so they did what they did,

you know what I mean, whatever. I mean, the one that did the kid tried to do, that one tried to kill me a couple times. I'm saying? So, you know, it's just one of those things where, you know,

there was no way I could control the situation. And a lot of times it was that way. I mean, there's a lot of times, man, bro, you can't, there's anything you can do? What are you going to do? You know what I mean? There are,

They're already trying to kill me. You know what I mean? So it was a, it was a, it was a, it was a hell of a deal, man. I mean, you know, when I look back on it, you know, you're dealing with the guards. Because you remember now the guards, hey, they do you dirty in there, man. I mean, they used to try to do us all kinds of bad sometimes. And so you go from that to, you know, these other inmates, these other races who didn't like you. And then you had your own people who was trying to do things to you because they didn't like the, you know, you told them.

They couldn't drink or you told them they couldn't do drugs. And then two of them were doing dope in another cell and they're over there talking each other. Man, fuck him, man. Yeah. What if he finds out? Because they already know if I find out.

So what if that in mind thing? Well, we got to get this dude. We got to get rid of him. Because if he finds out we're doing this, then he's going to kind of get us. So we got to get him. You know, that whole weirdo dope theme mentality. You know what I mean? Comes out.

And that's all you're dealing with with them people. That is absolutely it. I mean, when I got out, I had money and I had associations with other people that took care of me and I didn't need anything

from these people and they would just it was just dope this guns drugs breaking the law I mean nothing legal

not nothing legal not one conversation I'd go to some of these meetings man and you'd struggle to find somebody that was sober just sober and then they want to freaking then they want to freaking burn somebody's patch off or something like that

or and you're like you have 50 people here someone's probably got a federal wire on them okay women and children are here and you want to burn or cut this tattoo off this dude in front of all these people you're a fucking genius

you know you're a genius here man you know I mean so I hurried up and got way from me. I hurried up and was like, yeah, man, this is these people, man. You know, this is a fast track back to, you know, jail, you know, fuck with these people, man, you know what I mean? And then I reviewed my whole sentence and look at everything. It was like, you know, it was all, if I think about all the years I've spent in the shoe, years behind the door, not because of me, because other people, right? The dangers and the things that I had to go through and put myself through and the fact that I wasn't able to go to school

or to do any kind of programming or anything because I'm on gang time. You know, I'm on gang time trying to do this thing over here. And I got a good friend that was at Lee County as well, another guy besides Johnny. And he knew me there too a little bit. You know, we didn't talk or nothing. But, you know, he was there

and he had a perspective of me that I didn't have or one that I didn't. You know, it's hard to tell. people think about you. You and I can sit here and you can have these thoughts about what you see, how I present myself, right? And he told me just the other day, and he goes, you know, they call you Napoleon, right? Little Caesar, right? And I was like, really? Little Caesar and Napoleon? I said, yeah, they call you little Caesar because you were the one, you were out there deciding who got to stay, who had to go, you know. And they told me that, I was like,

I didn't, I didn't, I was like, I don't like that. I mean, I didn't make, because at the time, you know, I really was thinking that I was serving my people, you know, that I was just doing what was good for my people. I'm standing for them, you know, representing them, you know, I was the representative. And for how to think that how other people are viewing you and how people are seeing you is you're, you're thinking you're the savior, but you're the enemy, you know, that you're really not the savior. You're the devil. And apparently a lot of people thought I was a devil, you know. And I feel bad about that, you know, because I don't, I don't feel right about negatively impacting anybody's life. I want to be there to help you and lift you and build you.

And I think that a lot of that got lost in there and the violence takes over, you know. And you know how it is, man, you know what I mean? It's, it becomes a, we were kids too. You know, we were young, violent and a lot of time. And so things go really bad, you know what I mean? And it did. And I got on, I mean, I was sick. I'd be honest with, I was sick, man.

I was sick. I was a, I was sick. I became an animal, man. You know, the shoe time did it to me. It, it changes you, man. You know what I'm saying? I mean, you do a significant amount of time behind the door. It just makes you different.

And I did. It just, by the time I got out, man, I was not barely human, you know. And it took a lot when I got out to just try to. find myself, man, just to find myself. And I had to show the picture of someone when I first got out. And it was my ex-wife, across from like I am, and she took a picture of me. And I had been doing something. I remember I looked up when she took the picture.

And when I looked up, you could see just my eyes are just dead, you know? And I looked at myself. And this was years later, I looked at that picture. And I was like, who the fuck is that? Like, that is not me, man. You know what I mean? And even when I told you about the pictures, I don't look at those pictures. man, you know, that's not me anymore, man.

That's not who I am. And to get yourself out of that, to go from that mentality to this citizen mentality and try to heal yourself, heal yourself from your behavior, your own behavior is, it takes time, you know what I mean? I've been working really hard at it because I'm getting old, man. And I think about what I've done. And I think about how my kids. kids are going to see me. I worry about it. I worry about the tattoos and my prison sentence and

all these things and them looking back and going, Daddy was a gang member scumbag. You know what I mean? Or whatever, you know, and how I'm projected as now the people, most people who talk to me in my real life, don't know anything about any of this. When this comes out, this will be the very first that they know anything about who I was or any of the things I've ever done. Most of them don't know any of it. Because I don't talk about it. My ex-wife doesn't know half this. And we were married for nine years.

Didn't talk about it. It was just, I was, I was, I, it, it, it, it was in control of my life on the inside, you know. And I was fighting a battle every day. And I didn't want to talk about it. You know what I mean? You know, how are you going to tell you, you know, your, you know, your, you know, your ex-wife, my wife did, you know, about the killings and stuff, you know, people dreaming and, you know, thinking about it and, you know, thinking someone's going to kill you and, you know, just all, you know, you're, you know, I'm getting four or five hours sleep at night, you know, and you're just freaking, you know, you just, it's a, it's a, it's a, the mental health part of it, you know, and y'all just went there. y'all just came out of it. I don't care if you go in there for your first time, for one day, you're never the same.

When you walk out those doors, there's something that it does to you. It's a cancer. It's a cloud. It's something that you take with you. And the longer you're there, the more of it that you take. And then when you come out here and try to reintegrate yourself into this society, those things are not applicable to the things that are out here. It's completely different.

You can look at me a certain way, and I can be, like, cool with it. And even when I first got out of here, the best advice ever got was don't make eye contact. An old Vietnam vet told me, don't make eye contact. If you don't make eye contact, you'll never be offended. You'll never get upset. And he was like, I was like, man, you're right. Because I've had some incidences since I've been out, and it was because I made eye contact. You know, I thought somebody would be in disrespectful.

And, you know, he told me, he said, never make eye contact. contact. So the mental health aspect of it, me coming out here and, you know, and the part of me wanting to talk to you today was about hoping and not to tell war stories about tough guy shit, but was hope that other people like me and you who got out, who are processing the things in which they saw, you know, what they had lived through, and how they dealt with it. For you, do you think about the black guys, the D.C. dudes that did that to you? Of course. Okay. Let me explain something to you. You did nothing wrong.

You could not have done anything right in that circumstance situation. People go, oh, man, you should have, you. First off, that sounds good. That sounds real motherfucking good. when you're Monday quarterbacking it. But when you're in a situation and in the circumstances, it's a big difference.

You know what I mean? As you know, because I know you reviewed that. I know you think about it. I know you look back on everything you did. All the circumstances, everything that happened to you and you, I know you do because we all do it.

Every one of us has those moments in their minds and their hearts. And maybe not in that circumstance, situation, but things that you could have done different. Man, what if I would, that's life. That's just not life in prison.

That's life out here. So the best, and the best lesson to be learned from that and to carry from that is the one which I tried to carry my whole sentence was that I didn't. If I stood to a certain pattern, like say, if you tell the truth, you never lie, it's so much easier because it's straight line. It's a straight line truth, right? if you put everything on that straight line and say, okay, this is, but you're, you were a young man too. Okay, we develop this. This is who I am. This is what I stand for.

This is what I'm going to do. It's all down that one line. And you never vary off that. You never go this way. You never go that way. You just keep going, okay, that's the answer. Keep walking. That's the answer.

That's the answer. When you go back to look back, it's a straight line path because you've always followed who you were. You always followed your integrity, your principles, the things that you believed in, you know, and you build those things over time. You know, when I first went to prison, there was many incidences that I did things that I did out of, not fear, but this anxiety of having those negative thoughts about not doing something I was supposed to. I didn't want to, I just couldn't, man. I'm a little bit of a bug, and I'll get to tripping on things, you know what I mean? And there was another, it was a really good instance. I landed at Pollock.

These independent white dudes were running their mouse on the other yard. And I was one of the rare guys who didn't allow bodyguards. I never allowed a bodyguard. I just, I believe that the compounds respected me for me, you know. So I wouldn't allow a bodyguard. So I got my knife, didn't tell nobody. I had like eight and nine homeboys there. I went over to the yard where these dudes were talking crap.

to their table, now sat down at their table and waited, were called. They would even come out and they saw me. They knew what time it was. I seen them peeking out the door and they see me down there and they wouldn't even come down. They sent a representative down and he goes, what's up? I'm saying, I'm just checking the pulse, homeboy. What's up?

Oh, no, man, it's cool. Okay, cool, man, it's cool. I go back. What people don't know about the story is that night, I didn't sleep. And I got a knife on me and I'm pacing and I'm nervous because I'm feeling forced to do it. It's not me. You know, you, you know, I was being compelled. There was something in my mind telling me I had to do this.

I had to do this. If you don't have that in your mind and mine come from my brother, my brother's influences on me. If you don't have that in mind, how do you know how to react? How do you know how to deal with that type of situation? What do you do? I mean, who know? I mean, like I said, you know, for me, I grew up different.

I was in, you know, I used to see guys come into prison and they didn't, never broke the law in their life. They were coming from good neighborhoods, good families. They're not prepared for this or things like that. You know, I was being told about shit like that when I was 12. At 12 years old, I was told already about that kind of punk-ass shit. I mean, it was laced up to me. I knew exactly what to do.

There's a difference. You weren't given those tools to prepare you for that bullshit. shit. So I feel for those people that, that, that, that, and I used to see them come in all the time, you know, and you're like, God, dang, boy, that's going to, man, this guy, you don't know nothing, you know what I mean? But those kinds of things are, well, I think about how I treated people and the things that I did or the way I responded or way I reacted in certain situations. And I think that there's a lot of us like that out there, like you, me, all these guys that got out, we carry these things with us. When we come out here, who do we talk to?

We normally, if we're going to stay out, we're not associating with convicts. So everybody in my life, who am I going to talk to? I don't have a convicts in my life, but I'll tell you that right now. I got one good buddy of mine. That's it. But everybody else, ain't nobody been in jail. So do you, am I going to talk about these thoughts of what I went through? They're not going to understand.

It's like guys that come back from the war. They need war buddies to talk to. That's how they get past it. That's how they are able to heal, is they're able to communicate with other people and say, man, you know, and just talk about it. That's what this is, this is what this should be. This should be cathartic for people. This should be, this should be an opportunity for people to come up here and talk about the struggles.

I watched your show and I watched some of these other guys and you get somebody, you had a couple characters and you know, and you look at them, you know, and it's like, you know, And you know what I mean? You know. I know you know because you've been in prison and I don't care where you've been. Prison teaches you things. One is human nature. You're able to look at people, you know.

You have an advantage. That's for sure. I mean, no one can analyze people the way a guy who's been in prison can. You know what I mean? Like he's, you know, he's on it, man. You know what I mean? So like some of these guys would come up here and talk about this tough guy thing. And I was like, wow, you know, that's not.

what I want to do. That's not the vibe that I want to give. The vibe I want to give is that it can get better and you don't have to go back and you can change your life, you know, and there's a lot of guys that know me and they'll look at this and probably go, wow, that doesn't even look like the same guy, you know, because I'm not. I am not the same guy. I'm completely different. Do I battle with the same, you know, scars and drama and stuff that, you know, we all do? Yeah, I do. And I deal with it. It's tough, man. You know, I'm, I've struggled with it more than anything.

I mean, the mental health aspect of it, of just getting past all that, the violence and the ugliness of that situation, you know, and just the treatment, you know. The being in a cell and knowing that you can't get out. I used to, oh, my gosh. I used to sit in that cell, man, and I would think about what if the war happens and they leave us locked in here and then no one comes and feeds us. What if someone does to open that door and gives us some water or food? And man, that thing will consume you. I've said for, I mean, looking at, I can break this off.

I can break escape. I mean, just the things that go through your mind, man, thinking about the lack of control that you have over your life. You know what I mean? Like the degradation of who you are as a human being, people want to look at your butthole and shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, that shit didn't sit well with me, you know. And I'll tell you another goddamn thing on everything I love, ain't nobody ever saw

my butthole. And the guards, I mean, I, man, I mean, I've had some bad situations because they, I come through R&D and they want to shake you down and look at you, look at, and I tell them straight the fuck up. I'm not, you're not looking at my asshole, homeboy. We'll fight up in this motherfucker. You know, and they didn't like me, but I mean, you know, but yeah, I never did that either because, you know, I just, it was war. That's the difference.

Man, that was fucking war, bro. It was war. Yeah, that was war. You know, that's the way I looked at it. It was a war with myself, with the people around me, with my environment. I was just at war, you know, and that's how I survive. Just, you know, thinking of it that way, you know, just projecting it. that way. That's why I didn't watch TV. That's why I didn't try to be all the, does all that

bullshit, you know what I mean? To me, this was just a, I had to survive. I had to fight. I had to, you know, I had to, you know, I had to do these things, you know, to make it out. And, you know, it just, and at the same time, probably never thinking that I would ever would get out, you know. I never really, never really imagined it. I never really thought it was possible. I never gave it any hope. I wish I would have, because I think that I would have done things differently. I would have tried a program, you know, as odd as that is to take a program, you know what I mean, or whatever, and that really was not a person who did that. And I think that schools and vocational classes and if we really want to help these guys,

if we really want to, we want to change the whole environment, let's give people trades. Let's give them a hope to say that there is a future, that you'll be. can get out and you don't have to sell drugs. You can get out and you don't have to be a junkie. You can get out and be a citizen. You can do it and prepare them to be a citizen. I wasn't prepared to be a citizen. I didn't know what it was required to me. No one set me down and talked to me about the differences that, you know, you don't have to, you know, check somebody because they bumped into you in the, you know, in a freaking store or, you know, what I had to do about paying bills. I had a friend of mine asked me what my budget was.

I don't know. My budget. I don't know. It's like, no, your budget's not in your pocket. You know what I mean? Like, you need to figure these things out. Why I didn't know none of this stuff, man? You know? And so like, I wish someone had it. No, not I wish. That's their job is to prepare you for the free world. If they're locking your ass up and they're going to keep you in there, then they should have some type of responsibility about what they're going to release.

Well, all these people don't understand that. There should be a big push for this. Why are we not advocating more for having programs? Why are we not advocating more to have these people, you know, reintegrate to our society in a positive way? Instead of just being tossed out there and go, well, he'll come back because the statistics tell them that they're going to come back. So they already know that they're going to come back. Why are we not doing anything about it? We're not doing shit.

And it's just, it bothers me. And I don't understand why. I think that if we get more of the senators and congressmen and more of these political people to start pushing for these activists, you hear these people talking about the neighborhoods. And, you know, in Oklahoma City, we've had some shootings and some bad stuff going on. You can see these activists get up there and they're like, oh, this, that's that another. Hey, man, push for advocacy to go people to go into these prisons and program it. Make it more than just a penal institution. make it where it's someplace where people can heal.

We're all sick. Why do you think we're in prison? Why do you think we're breaking the law? You know what I'm saying? This is fucking, you know, we need to address these things. We need to figure out what it is that's causing these problems in our communities and what's leading people to go there in the first place. Then what's leading them back?

It must be something wrong with the system if the people that is supposed to be to punishment and then they just keep coming back. Well, then that's not working. If you punish your kid a certain way and they continue to do the same damn thing, are you going to keep punish them the same damn way? No, you're going to look at it for a creative way to make them listen to you or change. We're not doing that with our prison systems. We're not doing that with these people who are getting out.

We're not supporting them. They go, oh, well, there's programs. Bullshit. You know what I mean? And to me, that's our obligation. This is, you know, Gandhi said that you can tell a lot about a society. by the way they treat their poor. You know, the lesser people in the society,

you can tell a lot about the society itself, by the way the lesser ones are being treating in that society. You look across the world and look at their judicial systems, their prison systems. They're far advanced to us. Why is that? Why is that when you go to Europe? Their philosophies about prison and reintroduction to society

is far advanced to ours. They think so much about the person, the human, and what we can do to make them good citizens. Why don't we do that here in the United States? It's ridiculous. Man, we're supposed to be a first world. I mean, Western civilization and like the pride of the world here, but we treat these people like animals

and do nothing for them and expect something out of them, I guess. I mean, you know, we're letting them back, out into our communities and, you know, I mean, look at me. Bro, they took me from a gang unit. Do you really think they should have just tossed me out into the streets like that? You think that was, I mean, let's think about that, okay. You know, I have a, I have a, what's it called?

You know, they had to notify the community when I got out, you know, because of my violence. So they just kicked this guy out who was considered to be a very, violent dude, gang member and everything else and just let him go. Just let me go, man. And no one complaining about that, no one thinks that's a problem. What do you mean,

notify the community? What did they have to do? Public safety factor. They put it in your file. You have a public safety factor, so they have to notify the community upon your release. But how do they do that?

The cops. Oh, they tell the cops about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They notify them, you know, that you're out. You know what I mean? So it's kind of like notifying community. But, you know, you're like,

you're just releasing people like that? So people like me are getting out just out, I think there's a better way. You know what I mean? And I think that we can do so with programs. And I think that like I told you before, people like me, if I would have known that there was options, I would have made different choices even before. I'd have made different choices. But they just, they didn't seem available to me.

And they didn't, I didn't see them going on. And I didn't. And, you know, you were in the prisons. I mean, it's a fucking joke, bro. I mean, to me, borough prisons is like the fucking, U.S. Postal Office. Another shit-run government facility. That's all it is.

I mean, you look at these individuals, these guards that they hire. I mean, these people are freaking, I mean, come on, man. You know what I mean? Like, this is run in such a Mickey Mouse way, and it's just absolutely ridiculous, man. It makes me so upset

because these are people's lives who we're talking about, man. This is human beings, man. And we're just like, you know, I mean, in my circumstance, my situation, you know, I was a kid when I got all that time. And, you know, the system just chewed me up, spit me out, man. And it was because I didn't have any money. I didn't have any money.

I don't have family. So you don't have family and stuff. Hey, man, they'll run you through like you ain't nothing. You know what I mean? So there has to be changed. There has to be sentencing guidelines that has to be adjusted. I think that we need to have more community support, and then we need to have a whole overhaul of our borough prisons

to where we are establishing norms for our prison systems that are leading the world. We lock up more people than anybody else in the world. So why are we not the head of it in figuring out what's the best way of doing it? What's what's going to create behavior? Because you had support right when you got out? Yeah. Okay.

Can you imagine getting out and no one being there? Like, what do you do? Like, what if they just let you out and you got no family, you got nowhere to go, and they just let you out? That's it. What do you do? And there's a lot of people like that. What do you do, though?

I mean, that's sad, man. You know what I'm saying? like what options are you leaving them? I mean, they only know one thing. And especially, I would say 20 years because the world's different.

The world's different. I mean, it's not even giving you any, and again, there's a problem, and you're exactly right. There's a good example right there. Think about that.

Okay, you got guys, shouldn't there be some kind of standard there? Like this guy's did 15, 20 years? Well, then if he did that much time, then we need to do this. What is that? Make sure he's got to,

he's studying the drive. driver's license book. Make sure that he's got, there are some classes on how to do his, uh, uh, uh, handle his budget, uh, classes on how to reintegrate into society, how to get a rental property, how to get a job, how to get a job, uh, programs that puts you in work programs when you get out. What a novel idea that would be to hire a guy coming straight out of the joint and give him a freaking job. That would be awesome. You know what I mean? Think about how many people that would help. You know, and not only just giving them a job, a career.

Man, if someone had told me I could have a career? Like, give a dude a career, man. Give a dude to future. You know what I mean? Like, let's give them that. Let's give these guys coming out of prison a freaking a chance. And that's how you do it. You do it by supporting them, but giving them some kind of freaking support,

especially when it comes to a job. I mean, that was the most important thing. That is it. If you just give them, you know how we could change, you know, a lot by just giving some these guys jobs. Well, and a lot of states are on top of that, like with their work release programs, but the Fed just can't get that together. No, because they'll just let you out.

But half the problem, I think, where most of the problem is the halfway houses have turned into money grabs and they're not doing what they're supposed to do at all. Yeah. Not everybody gets halfway house. No, but even the ones that do, think about how many that do, that just fails them to. Yeah. Yeah, that's true. That's true.

Yeah. So you have that and then you have the circumstances like yours where you're in a war zone one day and the next day you're in the free world. Yeah. What 20 bucks they give you. Yeah. Yeah. They didn't give me that. Yeah.

They didn't give me a dollar dog. Because you're a commissary. Yeah, I had a 200 bucks in my, yeah, I got lucky on that one. But yeah, you're right. And that's the thing. That's what really bothers me is because like what is the whole, the whole thing is ridiculous to me because. You break the law, okay, and there's a sentencing, right, which I hate that part too because who knows how much time you're going to get.

You and I can admit the same crime and get different time. Absolutely stupid. And I don't like that. I never thought that was absolutely ridiculous because if we committed the same crime, you know, that, you know, there needs to be something fixed on that. There needs to be some kind of way, or I told you about reform, judicial reform, when it comes of sentencing guidelines.

When I went before the judge, the feds, you know how they do their little points, you know what I mean? Which is a ridiculous thing as well because points don't,

you're not points, you're not a number, you're an individual, man. Shouldn't we try to figure out who you are and how we're going to do with you,

your case, your situation, that's going to be beneficial to you. Obviously, yeah, we're trying to punish you. I get that,

no doubt about it. But you're a human being that's going to come back out in society. We have obligations. If you're a parent, you have obligations to your kids. If you're a judge or if you're in a position of power,

you have an obligation of the people that you're controlling. That obligation is, why are we going to, when you're sentencing me, is this strictly punishment? Are you just, is this strictly, we're going to, this is our policies here in the United States that if you break a law, we're going to give you your pops, we're going to spank you, and be a good boy next time. because that's what they're that's what that's what prison is it's just giving you some pops and then

sending you back out of the street without any type of reform nothing and we're never going to get anywhere like that we're always going to have the problems that we have we're always going to and there's a lot of people listening to this that their family are doing time and are or are possibly going to do time but are doing time and you look at it and you go you know we're First, the hope. The hope is that he's just in timeout right now and hope that he's better when he gets out. Well, hope that timeout worked.

You know what I mean? And now here he is. Here's little Johnny. Oh, how's the timeout work? That can't be it. I mean, that cannot be the way that we're going to think that we're going to correct this behavior. This cannot be it.

It can't. And so it bothers me a lot. And it always has because I've gotten out a couple times and I've seen the struggle and how hard it is. And it's something that we'll have to fight against. And I think that us as a community, we can come together. And I think that there's a lot that we can do to advocate. Did there be change?

There's too many of us that have been in prison or have relations that have been in prison that we can't change certain policies in our country. I think that we need to look at and review it and say that what is that we can do to make things better for these men coming out? And not, I'm totally against the whole. lifetime loss of your privileges. You know, me as a felon, I can't own and possess a weapon, right?

Why? I've served my time. Why can I not get all my rights back? Well, they say, oh, you can, you can, you're not me. I got a violent offense. I'll never be allowed to have my rights back because of my crime. And I understand that too, but that doesn't apply to everybody.

So why should someone have to wait so long? When a judge sentenced me, he didn't say, and you shall lose all your rights for the rest of your life, he didn't sentence me to that. So how'd that happen? How did I lose all this? He didn't sentence it to me. It's just a given that I'm going to lose all my rights because the dude sentenced me to this shit. And then even today, when they run my name through the computer, why should I have to suffer that? Why should I have to pay for that still to this day, man?

And how long am I going to have to pay for that? How long is a 30-something-year old crime going to deprive me of living a regular life? How long do I have to pay? I mean, I'm being delayed right now for my state licenses to sell life insurance because they're saying that they had to hand it over to the legal department because I answered truthfully on my, on it, do you have a felony? And I said, yeah. and because I said yeah

I'm getting drugged through the bushes and I still haven't got my license almost two months later and I'm writing senators and stuff trying to get my fucking license why should I have to deal with that man you know I'm trying to do something I went to school man

I'm doing good I got a family I'm doing the right thing and I still gotta fucking deal with this shit I still gotta be because you're a felon this shit happened in 93 man I mean how long is this have to hold on to

and that's where we're felon these guys it's a failure man they shouldn't you shouldn't have to you said something about your felony how long is this last you know what i mean can we not get some respite and some reprieve on this man you know you know i i just there there's things that can even something as simple as that could change a man's life if he didn't have to have we put he was a felon on that thing how many job opportunities that would open a lot you see what i'm saying so why why should we have this you know it's almost like double jeopardy we're getting stacked sentences We're getting the sentence the judge gave us, and then this other sentence that just hangs over our head out here in society.

And I've been out since 2016. I'm still dealing with it, man. You know, and you're like, God, dang, how long is this going to go on, man? You know what I mean? So it's a handicap, man. You're handicapping these guys that already got a handicap against them. So, yeah, that's fucked up, man. Yeah, it's a, it's sad.

It really is. It's sad because it, I, you know, I love this country, man. You know, I do. I mean, I got a flag on my watch. I'm a big, I love this country, man. I love it. But we are behind times on a lot of things. And there's a lot of reforms and a lot of things

that we can do these prisons. And inside the prisons, not just outside the prisons, inside the prisons, hire that and do better at putting people of power and position in the federal borough of prisons. And let's reform it. Let's take control. And the people are going to hear me say,

the government needs to take control the prisons and be mad at me about it. And I'm okay with that. Because why should Young Inn go to prison and have to deal with fucking jackasses? Why? Why should, why? Why?

If you're the authorities, the borough of prisons, the authority, why are you not the authority in prison? Because they're not the authority. in prison. It's the inmates. It's the gangs. There are the authorities. Why are they being allowed to be the authority? Why should an inmate like me walk into a maximum security child hall, Florence, Colorado, I had my own, this was my chair, this is DJ's chair, when nobody going to sit at it. I could walk in there and sit down at my chair and when I sat down, I would have everything that the officers were eating the officer at the room at my table.

And no one was going to say anything. Why? No inmates should have that power. Nobody. That should not be allowed. If I was a warden, that shit ain't happening. No one's special up in this motherfucker. Every one of you got numbers and you're going to be treated the exact fucking same way.

Why should it? This is a well-spoken story. And this would happen. And a lot of the prisons, a lot of the pins, you'd walk into R&D. and the man would come in there and tell you if you're fucked up, go that way. If you think you can make it, go that way. That's what they told you.

It depends. The warden is famously spoke about, and there's been a couple of them. They would pull the knife out and do all that. They did that. If you're going to go there, you better get one of these and pull one out of the knife.

And at Lee County, they did it. You're going to need one of these. You're going to go out there? you better get one of these and don't get caught with it. Now, how are you going to tell me that, though, fucking warden going to tell me that I got to break the rules and get a knife? But on the same fucking sentence say, I'm going to charge you if you kick somebody.

It's called a shod foot that were charging people for kicking people and giving them time. You threaten my life coming in the motherfucking door, okay? And tell me I need to get a knife, but going to tell me that you're going to fucking charge me? That's bullshit And that's the kind of trash That needs to be taken out of the borough prisons

We need to get people in there It's going to be men And take control of men Take fucking control of prisons And allow men to do their time That's their job Their job is to Make sure

That everybody is doing the same time of time No one's getting no benefits No one's life's being threatened They're supposed to protect you I was at Florence Colorado him. And I'll tell you like this. And not just for it. Big Sandy. Most of Pollack, most of the more violent yards that I was on. But in particular, Florence, because when I got to Florence, I had a very, very good buddy of mine that was a cellion there. And Dustin, very good guy,

a little short guy. I'm going to give him five, eight, but I think he's a little shorter than that. Very strong guy, a little peckerwood. And I go to Florence, Colorado. I walk in. I walk in. I'm going, They're a lockdown. They just had that 2018 right where they shot some people and it was a big deal. Hitler's birthday riot. My home boy started it. Jackass. And so I go to the yard.

They send me there. I'm the first pagan to hit the yard. Odinus to hit the yard after the riot. The first gang member to hit the yard after the riot. I walk into Dustin's cell. They open the door. I walk in. And the first thing you see is,

Knives cut out of everything. So if you look at your bunk, you see all down the bunk, knives cut out, multiple ones. Look at the lockers. Shit broke off, knives made out of everything. So I'm looking around going, oh, wow, okay. I know what time it is here, right? Dude looks up at me.

He's on and a bunch. He goes, yeah, it just killed my last cellie a couple days ago. I hope you make it longer than him. This is my cellie. Dustin and he was a good dude but we stayed locked down for I mean we didn't go to Chowall for like six or seven months you know what I mean and they let us they finally let us wreck in the day room they finally let us wreck in the day room so we could go in the day room and get a little bit of wreck time in the day room and stuff and

come back up and everything you know and he's like he told me he goes you know he was telling and he was telling me a different stuff you know like yeah yeah yeah whatever man school you know what I'm saying so my homeboy started the riot it was my guys that did it and it caused a bunch of shit and uh I wound up meeting two Crip dudes brothers Washington and Hughes were their names last thing and I know dudes know them because these do were legit fucking guys and I had the utmost respect for these dudes and I consider them to be friends of mine you know meeting them there but that place taught me a lot because the level of violence that was always there and was always right there on top.

These guards would walk in to this podge. And I am not exaggerating. There would be a dude shouting in a knife over there. There'd be a dude cooking moonshine over there. There'd be a dude smoking dope over there. There'd be dude gambling over there. And this got, I swear, there must have been something painted on the roof up there

because this motherfuckers would come in there. And he listened. And was gone, son. And you're like, I can. get killed in here. It ain't nobody's going to help me. Okay. So what do you do?

Well, fuck, I got to be violent too. I got to go get me a knife now. I got to fucking, you know what the no one's going to help you. You realize that. I mean, like, this cop just went in here and was like, oh, I don't want to see. No, that is bullshit.

Walk right out. Didn't even, they don't hang out. They don't hang out. That's one thing everybody will tell you. Like, they're not hanging out in the max pen day rooms just chilling. because they're fucking killers out there, man. These dudes are fucking dangerous, man.

You know what I'm saying? And so they would bounce out, you know what I mean? So like that kind of shit. Is that the way a prison should be ran? The prison, we're running it. We're running it. They're not running it. You know what I mean?

So like that's not cool, man. There has to be something to be done about that kind of shit. You know what I'm saying? That's the kind of thing that bothers me more than anything is that kind of stuff. Like, why is that being handled that way? People being victimized and, you know, taking advantage of, a job because the guards are not going to help. What are you going to do? Go tell the guard. Now what? I go up to you and press you. You're going to go tell the police, man. You're not going to tell

the police, bro. You're not. And I don't care what anybody says. You're not going to tell the police. You know what that means. You know what I mean? So, like, you know, it's a, it's a tricky situation, man. It's a very touchy, touchy, touchy situation. And if you don't really know the rules and I hear people talk about, oh, yeah, people lace you up. White dudes come up to you, hey, man, they do. If you're a white guy or man, it don't. It don't. You don't. I hear people talk about, you It don't matter what you are. Someone's going to meet you at the door. They're on you.

They're going to tell you, and they're going to lace you up. Hey, man, this, that. Another thing, I want to say this, too, because this has been bothering the hell out of me, man. The pissing on the commode backwards bullshit? Do you know about that? No, what's that?

Okay. I heard about one of these things. I don't know if it was you, on this one or no, this guy got on here, what's talking like he was a peckerwood or whatever, and it's talking about, yeah, you know, it's a respect thing. We sit down and pee and stuff.

stuff like that. Bro. If I see someone sit down and piss on it, I'm, bro, no, we don't sit down and piss. That is not happening, okay? I've never seen anybody. Oh, they made me sit to pee, but that wasn't another white man that would do it.

It's like if you're sold up with a Muslim or a black guy. That is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my whole life, that's what I said. I've never, I mean, bro, you can imagine someone telling me that I need to sit down and pee? To sit down and pee? Are you fucking kids? Like I didn't even never heard of that and I heard someone say some shit all that. I was like Where are the fuck does they come with that shit from? I don't even know. You know what I mean? So yeah, you seen that? They do that? Oh no, bro. Yeah, no, no

Yeah, no. Yeah, so anyways. Yeah, that's not a thing. Okay, this is I want to clear that up. Okay, there ain't nobody Nobody. There's no respect thing and all I don't give a fuck about that. There is nobody that we do not practice that. That's not a thing. That's crazy. It's not a thing, I promise you. So yeah, I've seen that. I heard that. I was like, where the fuck is that a thing at? I mean, you know, who the hell does that? You know what I mean? But again, I understand now. So yeah, I get that part. Yeah, but yeah, not, as a general rule of thumb, that's not a thing. So people don't do that. But yeah, I didn't, I had never heard of that before. So when people said that, the couple of things was the knocking thing and the thing about the peeing thing on backwards deal, I was like, man, I don't know about all

that's a different time that I've ever did you know they like I don't know but but yeah that is that is ridiculous is what that is and and where were you at you're a medium oh was at a low a low and low and so they're but this was at the detention centers because at the low is open dorm so you're using detention centers like what is that I mean like you know like an Oklahoma City or a like a Brooklyn detention so when you were in Oklahoma City you went to Oklahoma City did so you're a population, obviously. So they sell you with whoever, whatever. They put me with, they normally put me either with a Spanish guy. Actually, they put me with whoever. Okay. They put me with a lot of sex offenders. They put me with, you know. The custody level. Yeah, it was when I was in Brooklyn or no,

when I was at Wyatt Detention Center or private detention center, I was in with a black guy and he explained it. It was a Muslim guy. And he just said, you got to sit to pee and courtesy flush and all that. Yeah, that's Wally. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot. Yeah. That's wild, man. I think it really all depends on who you're with and what their practices are. You didn't grow up in the neighborhood, though, did you? Like, you're not from, like, the hood or neighborhood? No, I'm not from the hood.

Okay, yeah, yeah. So, like, when you went to jail, like, you just didn't even know, did you? Like, you didn't, did you have any idea, like, about prison? No, I didn't know anything about politics or paperwork. They don't teach you that, you know? I didn't know anything about that. But also, I think, like, the, my own people, like, failed me at the prison because no one, they just automatically, they didn't even come up and say, hey, let's see the paperwork.

They just categorized. Yeah, automatically. Yeah, yeah. There was no. Well, see, that's so fake because if they thought that, then why didn't they do something? You did what I'm saying? Yeah, they just wouldn't let me sit with them. But why not even ask or check or go to a guard because my case was pretty public?

A guard could have said. But the guards failed too because they could have stepped in and said, hey, he's good. I'd have some guards like in the shoe or whatever. They'd say this guy's good, you know? That would have never happened at a max. even at a medium Not even at a medium The white guys

Who pulled you right up immediately The Connecticut car did not pull me up at all That's where I'm from Connecticut Yeah that's no pull up nothing So it caused problems because I got friendly With the New York car Yeah Like higher up guys

One of the shot callers and And lieutenants or whatever And when the DC guys Tried to extort me The New York car got involved The guys I was friends with But then that caused beef With the heads of the car

So the heads of the car Go to Connecticut it and they're like, why aren't you, you know, looking after this deal? This was a whole big thing. Yeah, we don't allow that. And we don't, we don't, and it's a no touch policy. Like you can't, a white guy, a black guy cannot pressure a white guy. Like you can't, they don't, we don't allow that.

That's, that's not acceptable. I mean, that's crossing that. Well, I think the racial line. The black saw that I was alone, the D.C. guys. Sure. They had just came, that law passed in 2018 where they went from like a pen to a, a low overnight. Oh, yeah, yeah, I remember.

Whatever that thing was. But they got ran up out of there by the New York car within a month. They planned at a phone because they were too hot. They were young DC guys. Yeah. They didn't want, they were causing too much heat. Yeah. They were walking around.

They're notoriously like that, though. I mean, but think about where they come from in this environment they're coming from. It's pretty bad, you know what I mean? And so like their mentality and philosophies are skewed towards a certain way, especially looking at a young white guy. They're like, oh, that had the phone and just running around. Yeah, they're like, yeah, you know this guy.

You know what I mean? So like, yeah, I can see that. Yeah, that's, that's, you know, and that's a strange experience, man, because I never really had those experiences. No one ever, I have to say, you know, I never got, you know, even when I was really young, I never, I was a big kid, though. I was a tall, big kid. And I just, I think I had a certain look, you know what I mean?

And the way I looked at people. And they, I never really had a part. I mean, obviously I fought a lot in the county jail. I mean, I was always in all black county jails. So I did a lot of fight in the county jails and stuff. But getting into the prison, when I went to prison, had it pretty easy, man. You know what I mean?

I never really had anybody, I never had any kind of pressures like that, you know what I mean, thankfully. But again, I was schooled, I was taught. People laced me up. I already knew what time it was before I even went there, you know. And I think that it suited me. It was more, I come from a really bad, I come from a really bad neighborhood, so it was like, to me, it was just like,

I mean, this was like, it was no different to me trying to walk to school in the morning, honestly, you know what I mean? Like, it was just the same amount of violence, the same stuff. So I think that I kind of, it kind of suited me, man. You know, it kind of, I did good at it, I guess. You know what I mean? What had happened to your brother and your mother? My older brother died when I was 18 years old on a motorcycle accident,

and my mother died when I was in jail too. So, you know, I didn't really have any family or nothing. So I guess it kind of, it changed your mentality. You know what I mean? And war is about your mentality. It's the way you approach it. You know what I mean? And for me, I told you it was war to me, man.

I mean, it was war. I was there. I was there. It was a serious deal, man. You know what I mean? Like I wasn't, I took it very seriously. I mean, back then, I was, I'm small now. But I mean, back then, I was, I mean, a workout to me was like,

I'd drop and do 2,000 pushups 100 at a time, you know. And I could, back then I was, you know, usually one of the strongest guys on the yard. You know, I mean, big dude, you know, whatever. So I had that advantage. A lot of guys didn't have. I mean, that's a big advantage, you know, you don't realize that if you can just, if you're a big guy and if you're a big guy and just say you're a big guy and just didn't talk a lot, you'd never have a problem.

because it's that mysteriousness to it just keep don't even feel your cars no one wants to be the one to try no no no and just let them keep guessing you know what I'm saying and uh you know keep to yourself you know do your thing be be be be uh very direct in what you're doing you know to mean, like, uh, uh, uh, don't look like, uh, some guy wondering around, not knowing what's going on, but just be very, you know, purposeful and every, all your actions, whatever you do, be very purposeful. This is what I'm doing. And when someone interrupts it, it's like, boom, they're in, you know what I mean?

Okay. Okay. You know what I mean? And boom, boom, boom, boom. And people will leave you the fuck alone. They'll leave you alone. I mean, and, and I've seen every kind of, I've seen dudes do. do, and you hear people, I used to hear, and the reason why I went to the Max, I was in the

medium. I got the child blester. I did him to good, but I did it on purpose too because I wanted to go to Max because I hear these dudes coming from Max, oh yeah, I was in the penitentiary, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, oh man, this dude's a lane. And I'm like, all right, so I go to Max and I get up there and it's like, it taught me that anybody can do time. I don't care how tough you are. I don't care what's going on. I've seen some lamest, weakest dudes in a world do time up there. They just knew how to do their time. You know, it didn't have to be tough. They just needed and know how to navigate the system.

How to stay out of trouble. How to stay out of people's way. You know, and that's the biggest thing is people are bored in there, man. You know what I told you? People are bored and they're looking for something to do. And you look like something to do. You know what I mean? And that's it. that's basically it I mean because you remember that we're all in there just looking you know we're

oh how can I take this apart you know I mean like you know it's there's nothing to do so fucking boring you know I mean so that you know that's what it becomes a game and honestly in the very beginning

I remember old timers they would sit up on the range and they would just observe that was their that was their TV that was their this is how they passed time was watching new boots flounder through this system

and just see oh I bet he doesn't make you know they're making they're making bets on you like hey listen that's what they did and it was that way when I came in because dudes were like man we're not going to invest in you until we see what you're about until you show us and then we see

that you're going to be right and you're good then we're not gonna we're not fucking with you you know what I'm saying and then then once you show improve yourself and then they're like okay they want to involve themselves but if I would have had do all over again man I would have I would have kept my fucking mouth shut and I would have been way laid back

I wouldn't have got involved in nothing I'd mind my own fucking business. I wouldn't have never done anything, got involved in anything. I will say that people, you know, I talked bad about the gangs, and I will say this. There's been some good guys. And I'm going to count myself because there's people will say that we got TVs and we got tables and, I mean, Johnny Barter tell you, them white tables at Lee County, there's a many a day that you saw old DJ out there

by himself holding them tables down telling them dudes, hey, you can't sit here. You know, so there's a lot of people, but there was good Peckerwoods, white guys that stood up for that. So there was, in gang members too, there's a lot of good white guys who, the reason why white guys have rights in the maxes is because of guys like me,

guys like Johnny, guys that will stand up. and say no, you know what I mean? Remember now we're pretty bad outnumbered. You know what I'm saying? You know, for, you know, having white TVs, having white tables, having all that stuff, that's a pretty big accomplishment, man, you know what I'm saying? And it's because old good white dudes standing on it and saying, hey, this is what it is. So I do absolutely hate gangs and think they're absolutely destructive and nothing positive

comes from them. But there has been to gang member individuals. Not all of them are bad. Not all of them. I have all my teeth and I don't do dope. I'm educated. I think that that's a, that in itself is completely different

than what the perception of most people would imagine that they see someone who's like, okay, yeah, he's a, especially the group that I was involved in whatever, you know, me. He were like, oh, this guy, you know what I mean? And even my buddy of mine,

when he, you know, I told him that I was coming over here and he was like, fuck, finally, man, someone knows how to speak and has all his teeth, you know what I mean? They can be honest about it. about it because I'm not I'm not gonna lie about anything.

And most of the stuff I tell you, anything I tell you is that, hey, man, people are going to say something. People are going to comment because they know they were there. They were with me when I was doing all this stuff. You know what I mean? So like, and I don't, and I don't, I don't want to, I'm not trying to glamorize any of it, myself included because there's a worst time of my fucking life. Like it was horrible, man.

You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, think about, you know, being in that little cell and seeing, you in no future, like just existing in the moment and like waiting for a life sentence, basically, you know what I mean? Because I kept waiting for it to be charged for more time, you know, and I got out, when I got out, and I got with my wife, she saved my life. She saved my life. and we're not married anymore. We don't talk, but she definitely saved my life about two years later after getting out. First, about seven months after getting out, I go into the, they didn't make me report because of PTSD.

They didn't make me report into the probation officers because I told them I can't do it, man. It's just too much for me. So they would meet me outside and my probation officer is a really good guy. and so one day they said you have to come in so I go in and I walk in and there's a table

full of people I'm like whoa what the fuck it was there was a district attorney there was some gang dudes TDC bureau prisons

all these people were sitting there and they sit down and they're like what's up they're like you did this you're this

you're this that another this that another I go man I don't know what you're talking about and the guy goes no you you you and the prosecutor guy

and I go man you and he's said some, he called me a liar and I'm not a fucking liar. A liar is a coward and I'm not a coward. Right. So I got up and I was like fuck this, fuck that. And they do these and everything gets dispersed and the gang dude tries to talk to me. I'm like, yeah, man, fuck this shit, fucking whatever man. And he was a good guy though. I got to give him credit. Both of the task force guys were solid guys and they leave or whatever. So I messed up the guy. The New York guy says, I'm going to get you. And I'm free. He was, I'm going to get you. I'm like, fuck, man.

at this time I'm having the baby you know first kid was being born and all this goes down so like about 2017 I think it was 2018 I get a phone call out of the blue and it's another district attorney from New York from all places

I don't even know how the New York got into it but she goes Mr. Walsh I say yes she goes this is fucking such such such I'm like yeah she goes and I wish I knew her name because what an awesome individual this person was. And I owe her my life. And so she goes,

Mr. Walsh, I'm about to give them a lot of time to your homeboys. And I was like, wow, you know, she goes, and I believe, and you could tell by the way she was talking. She goes,

I believe strongly in making sure that everybody who deserves it gets what they got coming to them. And this thing's sounding good to me, man, you know what to me? Like, right off.

And I'm like, oh, man, this is not good, man. Oh, my God. And she goes, she goes I just don't think you deserve it what

like can you imagine I couldn't imagine I couldn't imagine someone saying that to me man because I never heard anything like that I'd only heard just that I was a dog

and that I didn't deserve anything and I didn't you know I had all this coming to me and you know all that never anything positive you know and the lady told me that it fucked with me man you know what I mean

and I was like wow what the fuck he was yeah She goes, you'll be hearing about it. You know? I was like, wow. You know, I told my ex-wife, I was like, man, you know, they were going to put me, they were going to put me away, man. You know, she was like, yeah, she was, I said the lady told him, said that, you know, that they're not.

And I was like, wow, you know, and then I get a message from someone that says, hey, man, look at this. And I pulled it up. Life sentence, life sentence, a bunch of years, bunch of years. I'm like, oh, my God. The two life sentences, two close buddies, you know. that I did a bunch of time with. And I was like, oh, fuck, man. And I tell you, man, that feeling, you know, it never leaves you.

You know, it's a, it's like, you know, very scary feeling. And even to this day, I don't like to talk. People have told me about talking on hearing, you know what I mean? Not saying anything criminal, you know what I mean? But I'm scared of them. I'm scared of them. Burrow prisons, man, I'll tell you, man. The federal government, bro, you know.

I mean, they can decide at any moment. moment to take your freedom from you, you know. And the lady told me, she goes, we've been watching you. We've been watching you. And they had. They've been under surveillance. And what did they see? I changed my life, man. I got a family. I've got a job work for the state. I got a wife and a kid and stuff. I'm not fucking with none of them dudes. I quit talking to them, quit fucking with them. and the first incident that happened with that was I'm at IHOP with my ex-wife and they get a phone call.

This is a weird story, okay? The guy who started to ride at Florence, Colorado, okay, he went to the ADX, he got out, he went home, okay? Before he went home, he was in the shoe at Smooth Program, I mean, at Florence, Colorado. Him and another dude were supposed to hit the yard because they were going to get disciplined, but they took the team.

It's kind of like a check-in move. They're in the shoe. They get drunk. They get, fuck you and take the teams. They get beat up. Well, they know they're not going to get out. They do that to keep the void getting the action out there, right? That guy gets out.

That guy is in Houston. That guy is best friends with a chick that I am staying with while I'm out. Okay. This guy knows that if, he got out over the whole it's a big scenario right well the other another one of the guys that gets in the hole is in the life sentence got out too right so they're conspiring to kill me and a lot of the homeboys don't know all this story's the first time he might hear's a story but they conspired to kill me one of the ones that's conspired to kill me was i thought like a son to me he was a really close friend of

i thought and uh but he's a drug he did drugs and they were all scared that i was coming after him for the drugs. So I didn't know what he was doing drugs. I didn't even know. I didn't know until later he did drugs, right? And so the dude who was in the shoe that did the move or whatever, I get a call, and it's him. And he's drunk or high, and he's talking. He's like saying some really wild shit.

And I'm on, this motherfucker's tripping, right? So I go, okay, okay. I'll have the phone. I tell her, let's go. Go to the house. put some things in a bag clothes that don't have my DNA on them take me a hammer

drive straight to Houston Oklahoma City to Houston about seven half seven 15 seven hours seven half hours straight there home boy go straight to that dude's apartment it's like fucking 530 in the morning

no one answers I got a hammer in my hand dude opens the door it's a black guy it's not even the white guy this is in this is in humble Texas right so the guy

looks down at the hammer and goes they live over there and just pointed them out so dude closed his door I'm creeping across these motherfucking apartment complex I go to the next

one nobody answers nobody answers ring ding I get a phone it's the other homeboy hey man where are you at oh I'm in Houston

what's going on, bro? I'm trying to find this motherfucking dude. That's what's up. Where is he at? Well, let me call you back. You know what I mean? They call me back. Well, he's at his dad's house.

Okay, where's it at? I go over there. I drive up. This dude, it's in June, July, in Houston. The guy's on the front porch with his 80-year-old dad and the guy's got a bomber jacket on. Right? Look at this dude.

He gets in the car. He sees the hammer. He gets down, looks, sees the hammer, looks at me, and I go, I will bury you out here. No one will find you. What's the problem? I was high. I was on drugs. All these stories, all this bullshit.

Okay, so I let it go. Call my other partner. Hey, everything's cool. I go back to Oklahoma. About two weeks later, three weeks later, go by. I get called to the probation. What's up? Hey, we've got to talk to you.

Go in there. What's up, man? Why were you in Houston? well I just got ratted out obviously the two homeboys they're the only ones know I'm in Houston because I'm under I'm on probation I ain't supposed to leave the state I go man I don't what you're talking about he goes oh yeah you know what we're talking about he goes uh check this out uh we have the phone being bugged we had the apartments being watched uh they were you're on camera the whole time that you were doing all your little

funny business. You're on camera. We heard the conversation the night before and we were all looking at each other. We hung up, we, everything got,

you hung up the phone, we went to bed, we get a call that says, this motherfucker's here now. They all fucking rush, you know, because it's the task force,

the gang task force. They're all like, what the fuck, this dude's down here? I done jammed back before the, they didn't even know what had happened,

right? Okay. I jammed back. So they tell me he goes, This is you walking across. Look at you, man. What the fuck are you doing? I'm like, fuck, man, busted dude, you know?

I'm like, he goes, you can't do that. He goes, you're not in prison anymore. Do you want to go back? And I go, no, not really, man. He's like, we heard him threaten you. You know, but you call us. You don't go and do that. And I go, I'm not fucking calling you, man.

So the best thing I can tell you is keep them away from me, you know. And he goes, don't worry. You know, don't do that no more. And they didn't have to, they didn't have to be nice to me like this. I broke my probation. I left, they didn't see the hammer, but I left the probation. They knew I was, they know why I was there. You got lucky, you didn't do anything.

I know. And they're watching me the whole time, but I don't know. You know what I'm saying? And so then it comes out in paperwork and some testimony that the trailer that I went to, that's where they were going to kill me. That they, him and the other dude that are, they've been plowed. And that's why the dude who called me, he was drunk, they were, been talking about it. And he got to feel a little, feeling himself a little bit and want to come talk shit to me,

kind of let the cat out of the bag. So they got arrested? No, no, not too long, not too, way later. Because they were investigating. That was the whole thing. But when I, once he told me, hey, man, I was like, oh, fuck, I didn't talk to nobody. No calls. I'm not visiting nobody.

I'm not going nowhere. I'm not going to. I just, I'm going to work every motherfucking day, bro. You know what I mean? Like I didn't, you couldn't even talk to me then. You know, I cut off everybody, anybody I knew. I was like, dudes that I was doing other shit with, I was like, I'm done. You know what I mean? You know what I'm done? And then that other call happened, you know what I mean? So it was a very and those two dudes are in ADX underground. That's where they were trying to put me is ADX underground, life sentences. And that's what they gave my two partners. And so like that perspective, it changes you. You know, the perspective of, hey, I wasn't expecting it out. I'm out now. then hey you might go back you know and so i was like wow man like my my my my thought processes of being out here is like god is giving me a gift and he's blessed me man and i have nothing to be upset about i have zero to be sad about i don't think about the loss of my my life you know what i mean because i'm an old man now you know and i don't have a lot left there's a lot less ahead of me than there is

behind me and, you know, I look at all this and go, why am I here? How do I make it? Because it's a very, it's a very tenacious thing. Like, how did, how did I make it? How did, how am I here? It's like going through, you know, it's like, I guess everybody going through war and torn situations, they get out and they're like, man, look back and go, what the fuck happened, man? Like, how does this, why me? Why me? Why am I here? I was, I was a fucking asshole, man. I definitely don't consider myself to be what have been a good person. Why me? Why?

Why this opportunity? Why this chance? Why? You know, I mean like and then all the, you know, yeah, I lost my good job and I've struggled out here.

I'm not, I'm not even going to act like this has been a cakewalk. This is been fucked up. This has been tough, man. This has been a very hard deal. It's been hard to deal with. It's been hard to deal with it psychologically.

And it's been hard to deal with it. It's just in general, man, because I'm not, I'm not a shot caller out here, man. I'm just a citizen trying to figure it out, man. And I'll say, I go back to the Rambo part of it where I've always looked at that speech he made. It's never over.

It's never over. He says, in there, I was in control of a million-dollar equipment. And out here I can't even get a job at fucking McDonald's. That's how I feel. I was the man, you know, in rural prisons and, you know, out here, in that criminal element, in that world, my name was well known. They knew me. And now I can't get a job in McDonald's. It's hard to take, and that's what causes a lot of people to go back.

That disconnect is why people go back, because there were somebody over there. Even if it was, whoever it was, he was the teacher. TV guy or he was the sweeper guy. He was that guy. What is he out here? He doesn't even get to be that guy. And that's the problem with a lot of these dudes and why they go back is because they can't break away from that. It's been difficult for me. Very difficult, man. A very hard thing to do, especially like I said, you know, I never had to worry about money in there. I was rich in there. I didn't have to worry about anything in there. Everything was taken care of for me. Out here, it's not like that. I'm not rich out here, and everything ain't taken care of for me, I heard.

I got to take care of everything, dude. I'll do my own laundry. I wash my own clothes. I do my own dishes. I feed my kids. I do all the cooking. I work. I fucking do all this stuff.

It's a lot. And if you compare it to what, I didn't have to do shit in there, but work out. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so it's a big attractive to people. You know, people are drawn in by that,

you know, because they can't get that same support out here with jobs and careers and stuff like that. They have that already established in there. The other one is, the other major downfall of guys getting out is women, women. You got to be careful. Women, women, women, bro. Okay.

I had a buddy. He just went back and he got out and he was told specifically about this one woman who had already sent another dude back. This dude was a kingpin. He was a freaking boss. he thought like me that man I'm so far ahead of the game they can't catch up because I thought that I thought look what I just did look what I was running shit you know what I'm saying I get out here and hey man you're behind the game you ain't ahead of the game this is different out here these women hey listen you know you can't you know

you got to be careful man you know what I'm saying so that's a big downfall and then spin off of that is just the company you keep. So important. The company you keep. You need, just like you're a woman, to be in tune, right? I don't associate or hang out with people that don't got it better than me. That they're not got more going on in their life. That they're not headed somewhere.

If they're not headed somewhere, they got shit going on, man, I don't got time for that. You can't do nothing for me. I want to be around people that are better than me. I want to be around people who are smarter than me. I want to be around people that I can learn from. I don't want to be around people that are just like, we're all just fucking in the same situation. How's that going to help?

I mean, that's just stupid, dude, you know what I mean? Like, I go hang out, and I'm not embarrassed to say it. I go hang out in a wine bar. In a rich area where I live at, I hang out in a wine bar, and I don't even drink alcohol because I like the fucking people. Okay? They're not talking about killing nothing. They ain't talking about doing no dumb shit.

No one wants to fight. That one motherfucker ever, I ain't ever see that argument one in that motherfucker. You know what I'm saying? And that's where I hang out. And I fucking love it. And sometimes no one even talks to me. But it's so fucking peaceful.

And I feel like home. You know? And that's a good thing. And I had to find that home. I had to find that place, because I went to bars and clothes because I'm a kind of a loner. You know what I mean? I was trying to find someplace I could just be.

around people but not be with people. You know what I mean? And I looked. I went to bars and this and that. I would see some fucking dude and I was like, man, this is, fuck this, man.

And then eventually worked my way around and found this wine bar. I know. And people are going to hear this and we're like, this motherfucker's crazy. But there I am. You know what I mean?

in the wine bar. I've had conversations with lawyers and doctors and... Little do they know. They don't know. I don't tell them. Yeah, I don't tell them. I don't know. I never, I never tell me about it. You know what I mean? I don't want them to know. Imagine they see this and they're like, oh, yeah, I mean, I'm sure a lot of people will see that and be like, look at this guy. You know what I mean?

Because, I mean, you know, it's embarrassing how stupid I was at one point in my life. You know what I mean? And I know it's because I didn't care about myself. I didn't love myself. I didn't have, I just didn't. I did not care about myself. I did not love myself. And I was trying to throw myself away is what I was doing.

That was what the actions of my actions were all about were they were self-destructive because I just, I just, you know, I just didn't care. You know, I just didn't care. Didn't, I just generally just didn't care. There was nothing to care about. I didn't, you know, didn't have family. I didn't, well, I didn't, I didn't think much of myself either, probably. You know what I mean?

I know I didn't love myself the way I should have. You know, I think that that was a lot of the problems, you know what I mean? I thought that way, but I think that I want guys coming out today and in the future to realize that realize that you are your own company. You should make decisions and choices that are beneficial to that company and that improve that company's standing. You don't have to fall back into the same lies of the neighborhood and the whole persona of this, that and that and another. you can be happy just being you. Learn who you are.

A lot of us didn't even, you know, for me, I learned a lot about myself in there, but being out here and go sit by yourself and be quiet for a little while and just think and see yourself of who you really are, the man that you are, you know? And it's tough. It's a tough fucking thing to do, dude.

You know what I mean? Men, we go through so much and we do so many things, you know, don't be too hard on yourself. It was a hard, it was a fucking tough. up deal, man, you made it. You fucking made it, man. What are you doing now? What is it that you're doing now to be a positive impact on your community? What are you bringing the table? In your instance, these fucking scumbags that played their little move on you, wonder where they're at.

I wonder how their life turned out. I actually get a lot of DMs from people that gave me a hard time in prison. They're like, I love the show. Glad you're doing good. Yeah, man. Because think about that. Exactly. It's what you're doing now. People can, how am I going to judge you? I hate to be fucking judged. I fucking hate it because that's all I get from people. So I'm not going to judge you, man. I see the situation and circumstances like, we all need to move past it.

And these guys that, again, get out, I don't try to live on that life. I don't try to use that part of my life. I've cut it the fuck out and hope that I will be successful in doing so within inside my spirit that I'll be able to, one day, it will be gone. And that's the dream and that's the hope. But for now, yeah, I did all those things, but what am I doing today? I'm a father. I have two beautiful kids. I have a great job. Even with all the trials and tribulations, I could have quit at any point in time in the situation when the state fired me for the tattoos. You know, I could have folded at any moment and, and, and, you know, I could have folded it at any moment

and gave up and went back. My kids made sure that wasn't going to happen. I was like, you know, but, you know, it's like letting that go, you know, letting that whole life going,

coming out here and we need to show these men that there is a great life out here. This is, I was on the street, the strip last night, walking around. and it's almost overwhelming the joy

that I have for being free and for changing and not being the way I was before and I walk around and I got picture I took pictures of a fucking building dog look how beautiful this building is and I know people look at me like this guy was a fucking terrorist

you know what I'm saying? Yeah I was but I got this gift God gave me this, man, this chance, this opportunity. And when I wake up and I swear to God and he knows it, I wake up every morning, man, and I'm like, somebody fucked up. And I'm glad they did. You know what I mean? Straight up.

I mean, I know it. I wake up every morning. I'm convinced. Like, I'm convinced. I'm like, man, this is fucking awesome. This is so cool, man. I'm so blessed. I'm so lucky.

Why me? I mean, I got Survivors' guilt. I mean, for real. I got survivors guilt because I'm looking back going, this seems almost in a fucking possible, man. This happened to me, man. And even the neighborhood I live in an area I live in, a nice neighborhood, man.

I live in a nice area, man. And I just look around. I'm like, what the this can't be real, man. And, I mean, that was a problem for me for probably the first four or five years, man, I would wake up scared because I thought this is a fake. I'm going to wake up. I'm going to be in a fucking prison again, dude. I just knew it.

I just fucking knew it. I just, it was like that instant right before their eyes opened. Oh, shit. Yeah. I'm still fucking here, man. This is awesome. And I just,

I don't see how dudes get out. We have to change that mentality. We have to change that. We have to somehow instill that in them. And I'm not a Christian, but if it's through religion or education or fucking something, that we can give them that, that you won the lottery.

Here you are. Enjoy it. This is heaven. This is heaven. You need to make it so. Leave that shit there. It's gone. You've done your time.

Let's go over here and let's do this. And I like lame shit. Okay? Like I like the lame. The lamest thing. Think of some lame shit. I like it. You want to go look at the museum,

walk around, look at some shit. I'm down. Okay. Anything lame. If you thought, if someone thought it, I want to do it. I want it. That's what I want. I want it to be the lame as possible, oh boy, okay?

Because that's my life. And I fucking love it. I love every minute of it. I'm the guy that, and some people might see this. And, you know, I'm the guy that was watching your kids at the zoo. And I was the fucking the chaperone of your kids, home boy. Okay? That's facts.

And as I was doing it, I had to kind of laugh at my, and myself to go, man, look at this fucking this crazy. No one knows, you know. And I fucking loved every minute of it. It was a fucking amazing. And I am so thankful. Like, so thankful to be there, man. So, I'm looking at my kids are playing and shit. I'm looking at all these other kids.

And I'm like, wow, what a fucking trip, man. It's a trip because it shouldn't have happened, man. And I never would have guessed it would happen. So you think about all those guys sitting in them prison cells projecting what their future will be and not having any fucking clue what it's really going to be because who knows, you know? I guess my last question for you would be, you know, what would you tell your younger self, your teenage self before, You know, you got involved with street life and went down this path. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that's a tough one, man.

You know what I mean? I don't blame my situation and circumstances on my past. I wish that I could have been more mature. I think that the decisions I made were more. more because I didn't care about myself. You know, I genuinely didn't want to live, you know. And my actions were, that's what they were. I mean, it was just me being self-destructive.

Me, at one point in my life, really just wanting someone to end it for me, you know, because I was miserable, man, you know what I mean? And, you know, so a lot of the way I acted was because I just didn't care, man. You know what I mean? and so I look at it and to tell myself that just to love yourself, you know what I mean, and to believe in yourself and, you know, don't give up on yourself because, I mean, that's what leads us to that, is that we give up on ourself. There's no reason to do that to yourself, you know.

There's no reason to put yourself through that type of circumstance situation. You know, you have a future, you have options. you have a chance. Some of us just don't know or not aware of it. But, you know, I think that's pretty much it. I think I just having faith in myself, man, and believing, you know. I don't think I was very confident. I don't think I was very, yeah, I definitely know I wasn't very confident in myself.

You know, a lot of my actions were that of someone who just was, you know, you know, not secure in who he was, you know what I mean? And most of the crimes and the stuff that I did was like with other people. and I was just, you know, you know, you want to be the tough guy or you want to prove yourself to people. You want to show other people who don't matter, you know. You'll probably never see any people again. And if you put them in the grand scheme,

if you wrote it all into a book and you looked at it, they wouldn't even be added in any of the chapters later on down the road, but we give them so much importance in the moment of what people think or who you're trying to press this one individual that might change the rest of your fucking life. So I teach my girls. The first principle is the first rule is family first. And so prioritizing family, yourself, your relatives, prioritizing that over everything else.

People, situations, situations being like me, okay, I get an incident with someone and, you know, I want to, I want to act out. I want to selfishly, you know, address this situation, but that's not family first. It's me first. Me can't come before family. And so I teach my girls that, and I think that for me, that's the overriding principle that needs to be learned

that most of them didn't grow up with family. I didn't grow up with the family, really. You know what I mean? I just last night spoke with my half-brother that I haven't seen since he was eight years old. first time we ever seen each other was last night at the motel room. And I think that a lot of the guys who go to prison don't have good family lives, don't have solid family units for the majority of them.

And I think that that philosophy of that understanding changes everything because then you start thinking about your actions and what you're doing based off on how it affects other people. People who are in that lifestyle only concern themselves with themselves. They don't think about anybody else. When you're committing crimes and when you're doing dirt, that's you. That's all about you. It's a very selfish thing to do. You're not thinking about your family and they're not putting family first. So, you know, for me, I tell my girls that and I believe that. I believe that that's the foundational principle that will keep you free is that you prioritize other people beyond just yourself.

And that's how you stay free, I believe. It's hard to do, though, you know, because a lot of us don't have it. And a lot of the guys getting out, you know, I wish, my hope and wish is that, that like you, I hope, I hope, this is what you as well hope, is that some way, something I say will help someone, that they'll be, that they'll get something from this. jibber-jabber that I'm going on, that will benefit them in a positive way and that they will use it to springboard them into their new future, one that is free as you're meant to be. And that's my hope.

I volunteer at the juvenile facility in DeColm's talking to kids, and I enjoy doing that. I like to talk to people, and I like to talk to kids especially. and I've even thought about advocacy to get into the prisons and teaching them how to do their job. And also talk to them about mental health because let's don't forget, you know, these guards

they take that shit home with them too. You know, they see a lot of fucked up shit and they'd have to do a lot of fucked up shit. And you can think about the mental health situation with guards. Can you imagine? These people are walking around in our fucking society, okay? And mental health

is an issue with prison guards, just as it is with prisoners. So that needs to be addressed, too. I've already contacted a college over there where I'm from about coming and speaking to a criminal justice class and, you know, talking to them. I think that for me, I get the reward out of it is that it starts to, you know, it starts to, to make me feel better about the whole situation. And it's a release. You know, it's a release. When you talk to your, I go, I get on the phone,

I talk to one of my buddies, and he's talking about the prison thing, this, that, another. And then when we get finished, when we're done, he hangs up. I notice that there's this feeling of almost release, you know. And I think that that's something that we need to spread more of. And I like, this is the thing I like about your show is that I hope that it's utilized. in that way, that I'm not, I mean, I know that a lot of, don't even wrong, I understand that a lot of the crowd wants to hear the, the war stories. And, you know, I've seen people raped,

murdered, set on fire, you know, just ugly things happening in people. But I don't think that that should be the thing that draws us in. I think we should all be searching for an answer to how we change it. I think we should all be searching for an answer on how that we help these guys when they get out with their mental health and with their jobs and with everything else. I think it should be a support to that because we're part of a fraternity, man. You know, we're part of a club and we need to, there's a lot that needs to be done. A lot.

You know what I mean? And even if it is like, hey, man, give them, you know, they have these freaking hotlines for veterans and police officers call when, you know, you know, that kind of thing. You know, you have a support group that's really supporting you that's actually wanting to see you do good in your life and wants to see you further it. You know what I mean? So I think that a lot of that, there's a lot of that that needs to happen. And for me, that's my desire. That's what I want so much to do is to help people and talk to people and try to get them to see the light.

You know what I mean, basically. And it's like, it's funny because I'm not Christian, you know, I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian. and I want to, I want to be able to give them that spirit of hope and, you know, believing that you can succeed in this world and because you can do it, you know. And it's all possible out here. Everything that you, all those little dreams that you had while you're laying in that bed looking out that window, it's all possible. There's nothing changed.

All those dreams that you had, everything that you thought about, it's all things that you can make happen out here. You just got to work at it. You got to make it happen. You got to let go of that pass, though. You can't hang on to it because what are you hanging on to anyways? Trash. Fucking shit.

You're hanging on to shit. You know, it has no bearings on your day to day. I woke up today. I've already went and walked around and got to shop and got to, you know, bullshit with you and everything else. Man, this has been a wonderful day. I'm going to leave here. I'm going to go to my adopted mom's house and get to visit with her. and then go home and go back to work and be a citizen.

And, man, I love being a citizen. Citizen's awesome, man. It don't pay as good as other job here. But it don't come with all the repercussions either in circumstances. So, yeah, man, this has been an experience, man. It's been a hell of an experience. It's been a hell of a ride. And it ain't all went my way.

It ain't all went my way. It has not all went my way. I got divorced, lost jobs. It's been rough, man. you know what I mean but I still love it man I still I wouldn't trade it for nothing man I mean give me the fucking struggle I want it because man look at this man look at the life that you live I know you can't I know you can't even imagine it must be wonderful to you man that's crazy it must be man it's got to be and if you don't that's the

thing you got to give that what you got that that's if you could give it to them if you could give it to these guys coming out of jail they could get that man that that how do we do that, though. You know, how do we get instill in them that? How do we, what is it we, that's the only, that's what I'm looking for, you know, what is it we can do for these guys to, I want them to have what I got. I want them to have it. I want, I want to give it to them. I just don't know how to explain it to them, and I don't know how to get them to accept it because we get trapped in our old ways and old ways of thinking, you know, and we don't, I don't know. And I don't even know, like said, the birth of my child did it for me.

I was like, oh, man. Wow. Well, that's why having these conversations are important. I agree. I agree. I think that this is a, I think that this, I think people listening to us

and understanding about humanizing because this is a way to humanize us. We're just people. We're just regular guys, man. We did things and whatever. We had to go through things and this, that, another, whatever, you know what I mean, but it's the,

redemption story. What are you doing now? You know, look at you, maybe from that to this, you know, that's the way I look at it. I don't look at where I'm at. I look at where I was. I'm going to be at. That's, that's ever evolving. We're going to get there. It takes time sometimes. You know what I mean? But I never look at about where I was at, man, because that's fuck that. You know what I mean? That's just over with me. It's past. You know what I'm saying? All I can do now is just take that experience and use it to build. Build. I want to be a build. I don't want to be a destroyer. Absolutely. You know. Well, Danny, I appreciate you coming on the show today.

Thank you, man. I appreciate you having me. And, man, it's been a good time, man. I appreciate that, man. Good. I hope it helped you with your healing journey. Absolutely. Yeah, I think it will.

And again, I think that another reason why I did this is because my daughter's going to watch it one day, you know. I want them to see not the gang member, you know, guy, this, that, not just a dude, just a regular guy, you know, who, you know, did the best he could. And, you know, that's it, you know. So thank you for having me. Of course. My pleasure. Thank you.