Locked In with Ian Bick - I Faced the Death Penalty — Then Spent 30 Years in Prison | Roger Aletras

Episode Date: June 22, 2026

Roger Aletras grew up in New York — and by 16 years old he was already robbing people at gunpoint. What followed was a criminal career that escalated from armed robbery to working with organized crime running jewel heists across New York. When the feds came for him on a gun charge it was only the beginning. A murder during a drug deal in Vermont ultimately sent him to federal prison where he spent over 30 years inside some of America's most dangerous facilities. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, Roger opens up about the complete arc of his criminal life — from his first gun robbery at 16 to the jewel heists to the murder that changed everything. He shares what life inside prison really looked like as someone connected to organized crime — the politics the power structures and the stories nobody has ever heard. And he talks about what 30 years behind bars does to a person and what life looks like on the other side. _____________________________________________ #organizedcrime #truecrimecommunity #prisonlife _____________________________________________ Thank you to MARS MEN & BLUEPRINT for sponsoring this episode: Mars Men: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, Free Shipping, AND 3 Free Gifts at Mars Men at https://mengotomars.com/ _____________________________________________ Blueprint: For a limited time only, our listeners get 20% off + free shipping at https://blueprint.bryanjohnson.com/ by using code LOCKEDIN at checkout. #Blueprint #ad _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Armed Robber Who Faced the Death Penalty — Roger's Complete Story 00:28 His Early Childhood Broken Home and the Environment That Set Everything in Motion 01:52 His First Crimes and the Juvenile Arrest That Started Everything 06:12 Life Inside Juvenile Detention and What That World Really Looked Like 14:24 Getting Caught Robbing a Gun Store and What That Moment Really Felt Like 20:00 Learning How to Be a Better Criminal Inside Prison and What That Education Looked Like 27:00 Prison Life and the Hard Realities That Defined His Early Years Inside 32:00 Getting Released Reoffending and What Getting Pulled Into Organized Crime Really Involved 41:00 Maximum Security at Green Haven — One of New York's Most Brutal Prisons 43:00 The Escalation From Theft to Armed Robbery and What Drove That Transition 47:00 Shootouts and Life on the Run — the Most Dangerous Chapter of His Criminal Career 54:00 Prison in New Jersey and the Culture That Governed Everything Inside 01:00:00 Prison Violence the Codes That Govern It and What Survival Actually Required 01:05:00 Armored Car Robberies and the Elevated Risks That Came With That World 01:11:00 The Transition to Federal Prison and What That Step Up Really Looked Like 01:18:00 Federal Prison Challenges and the Big Cases That Defined His Time Inside 01:26:00 Facing a Murder Case and the Death Penalty — the Moment Everything Almost Ended Forever 01:35:00 The Prison Transformation — Education Reflection and the Shift That Changed Everything 01:45:00 Release and What Starting Over After Everything He Survived Really Looked Like 01:50:00 His Regrets His Redemption and the Advice He Wants Everyone to Hear _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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escalated to armed robbery, then started running jewel heist for organized crime, and when a murder during a drug deal in Vermont, put him in front of federal prosecutor, facing the death penalty, he ended up spending over 30 years inside some of America's most dangerous prisons. His name is Roger Alatras, and this is the complete story of a criminal life told for the first time.

I was born in Brooklyn. I'm considered a Bronx guy, but, like, I wasn't born in the Bronx. My family was, and then they moved to Brooklyn. They had me. I ended up going back to the Bronx. But, yeah, New York City born and raised. What did your parents do for? work. My mother

was one of the old original operators you know like the... Oh, like the dial-up, tile up? Right, right, right, back in the day. And then my father was a machinist. Like his father was a machinist, my uncle's machinist. So, but they, they separated when I was like a year old. So I actually, I didn't really get to meet my dad until I was like 12.

And so, like, she had, like, part of the reason I got into the whole situation I was in was my mother was one of those abused housewives. She remarried this guy, Eddie, and he used to beat her. And so, like, he would beat her pretty bad, like, you know, put her in a hospital and stuff like that. And they would take us and put her as a person, like, you know, foster care until she got out of the hospital. And so I grew up with, you know, like, that turmoil, you know, turmoil, you know, dysfunctional family type of thing. It's not like, oh, that's the reason I'm at the jail, you know.

But it's, it made me, like, I can read rooms. I could read people. I learned how to, like, you know, see danger and stuff like that at the young age. And, you know, I don't consider that the reason why I went into crime. I got into crime because I was kind of like, I was born into it. It was like everybody around me was into crime, you know, but it was like a natural transition for me, I guess you would say. So do you think you never had a fatherhood figure those early years of your life? No, not in the early years. And subsequently when I ended up going to jail, I went to jail at a very young age. I got arrested at 16 and I was in jail from then on for a long time.

my father figures were convicts that were like older. I was fortunate enough to be raised by good guys in jail, like good guys. You know, they took interest in me, which you don't see much more in this day. Do you think you had any genuine, you know, child moments growing up or was everything just a disaster? No, no, I mean, I had, I wouldn't say I had like this, like, nightmare childhood, you know? I was, I did a normal kid stuff. but it was what happened was because of the

the foster homes and the childhood they'd take me out of like regular school so when I ended up having to go stay at my father I went to live with him and when he tried to put me into a regular school they wouldn't put me in with the regular kids they put us in this Boise school

that's like basically a bad boy school all right for example like I went there when I first I was going with it. The council was taking me to the school, my first day of school. And I was trying to talk him into it and not sending me to their school. I said, listen, if you put me in with these kids, you know, I'm not going to, you know, be a good kid. I'm going to, like, I'm going to fit in with everybody. I'm going to, you know, transition with these guys.

And whatever, they put me in. So my first day, they're walking me through the school and, like, these kids fist fighting in the school. And the teachers are right there. And the teacher's like, let them get out of the system. Let me get out of the system. It was like, like, a movie, you know? I'm like, all right, this is what I'm doing. and I was I think 14 at the time

and all my friends in school these kids in my class they're like 14, 15 years old and this is in 86, 87 and they're like showing me crack vials like yo this is we're selling this and I'm looking at crack vials and I don't, you know,

like we're learning this was like when the crack epidemic was big you know, so we're learning all this like drug stuff in school you know in classes our friends are dealing drugs and that actually that school ends up saving me

and bite me in the ass later on. But I'll get to that in a minute. When I got in trouble, I went to prison. So I'm going to jump right to that? Yeah, to what happens? So when I, in the school, one day I'm walking.

All these kids were trying to break into a free-to-lay truck, steal Doritos or something like that. So my brain, whenever I see something like people can't solve something, I have to like figure it out. Like I'm like a retard like that. So I'm looking, I'm watching them. And I walked up, I had a knife on me.

And they couldn't get into the truck. So I cut the rubber around the window. And I popped the window out. I reached in, open up the door and opened up. And they were like, oh, man, they went in. So this brought me to the attention of these kids that I was, you know, a little brighter than the rest. So they come to me and they're like, hey, we want to burglarize this gun store. You know, they show me a gun store.

And I'm like, looking at it. And I'm like, I don't know what they're doing. I never did this, I can't figure it out. So whatever, I walked away, whatever, but I can't get it out of my head. So I started to go into the public library, and I started taking books out of espionage books, spies. Because what they do in these espionage things, like they have to break into houses to plant bugs, right? So they break the components of a burglow along down in these books. So I used that to sit there and, like, get to this gun store, right?

So I'm like, I was 15 going on 16 at the time, and we're trying to get in there. I figured out how to get through the Berg Alarm. So there was a line, a landline to the telephone poles. That's the call to the alarm system. So I figured out that if you splice the wires to a, you know, the lantern batteries, like a lantern. It's like a six-volt. It creates a loop so that when you crack the door,

the alarm doesn't go anywhere. It goes off, the ringers are all off, so you just knock off the sirens. And then you have a dead box, right? I figured this out at like 15, 16 years old. And we end up doing this gun store. You get away, you know, whatever. We get like 280 pistols, AK-47, M-16s, right? 12-gate shotguns.

We're like little kids, right? And you know, you see the movie The Town? Yeah, of course. Great movie. So you remember the scene when they all come up with the guns and the cop like looks at them and then looks away? Yeah. All right.

So I'm a little kid. It was me and my brother, Robin. And I come running out of the gun store. I got an AK-47. and I got a bag of shotguns in like a laundry bag and I got a sweatshirt over my head like a mask and I come running down and there's a cop sitting there like this looking at me and he looks like Dennis de Menace's father

in the comic books and he's just this he's staring at me and I'm looking at him I point the gun at him and it's empty because all guns are empty in gun stores I don't got a loaded gun I go cop to my brother and my brother like run past me and leaves me there and I just back up you know and he just looks at me I look at him and he doesn't say nothing or doing anything so I'll get to the minute I end up getting caught for this but down the road

But when we did get caught for this, there was no mention of that. He never said he saw us. He never said, like, you know, he just let the scene. Like, he let it go away. Like, he didn't, like, say anything. So, and the reason I got caught for that gun store was, we were trying to sell some of the guns. And we were at these horse trails.

And, like, an idiot, I'm walking, where, we're, instead of being serious and going to get the guns and bring them to the guys who wanted to buy them, we're running around shooting guns in the woods, you know? Yeah. So I got an AR-7 rifle in my hand. My brother's got like a shotgun and my friend Pat had like two pistols.

And we bump into these like older guys in their 20s drinking. And they see us. And they go, get the fuck out of here, a little bastard if I kick your ass. So they don't see I got a gun. I got the thing behind me. I'm looking at him, right?

And well, you heard me, get out of here for I burn your house down. Something like, you know, stupid shit. You know? So I turn around to look at Pat and Robbitt. They're already running. They talk off because they know me better than I know myself. So I see them running.

And I just went, I emptied the gun into the crowd. I didn't hit the buddy, but I just shot at them. And thinking they were going to just run away and not do nothing, but, you know, of course they called the cops and whatever. It was a big, big scene. They ended up pinching me for that. And I was 16.

And my brother was 14, so he went home, juvenile in New York. Juma mentioned it to you. Like, 16, you're an adult. Yeah, I don't know if you knew that. No, I didn't. Yeah, no, nobody did. You know, you hear the song, 18 to Life, you guys. Like, you're thinking like 18, you're an adult.

So 16, they're, uh, all right, before I get to what they're sending me to prison. I'm in the precinct. And, uh, I'm in the precinct. I'm cuffed to a chair. And I'm ready to go to, I'm going to go to prison. And, uh, this cop walks up. His name is Detective Woods. And he's like, he starts smacking me in a face, right?

But he's smacking me, he was, my name is Detective Woods and you're going to tell me what I want to know, right? Smack him like this, right? So now, mind you, I'm a kid, right? I'm a juvenile delinquent I got some stuff but I could go either way like you know

I could talk to me you could say hey listen kid you're on a wrong path like this is the wrong way maybe you could have you know change my life a little bit but when he did that I never felt this feeling before

or again like ice came over me just like just like ice I just looked at this guy and I was like an enemy of state like you know like we were like mortal enemies me and me and cops period back then and so they sent me to

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So I go into jail. I'm in the bullpen. And I'm waiting to go in. And this one Spanish guy is like, he goes, yo, get that look off your face. And the other guys are like, you'll leave him alone, leave me alone. And he's like, no, no, no, he's got to get that look off. He can't go in there like this. Like, I must have had like a, you know, horrified, you know, like, see a look on my face.

I was a kid. So the guys talked to me like, you know, this is me right. So I go into the prison, into the jail. Now, before I tell you, when I went in there, what usually happens to a white kid is when he goes in a place like that, like if you've got good sneakers or you got good clothes on, they're like vultures.

They're stripping you down, taking everything from you, whatever. You're going to have a rough time with it, right? You know, it happens all the time. It's a rough, rough joint, you know, rough jail in the 80s. So I walk in and I get in there and half the, unit, half the unit just breaks out. I was, what the fuck

are you doing here? And they were all kids from my school. The bad boy school he sent me to. Like, you know, like, all the kids that I was in school with were in jail. And they were like, they were like happy because I made good, you know, like I show, I ended, you know, whatever. But I was like a pretty good, I was like a straight student in that school. I didn't get in trouble.

So they didn't ever thought they would ever see me where they saw me. They said, what'd you do? I said, I got a gun store. And they were, ah. They were happy. So my friend Leon was there. And I'm like, yo, Leon, what's up? And he's like, oh, I'm not Leon no more. My name's everlasting.

And I'm like, what? And all my black friends had become, there was a gang called the 5% is. You heard of them? They don't exist no more. But back then it was a gang. They believed their gods and the white man was the devil. Very racial, you know, split. So they always had a problem because they were friends with me, you know, and I would heed him.

They were, why you fuck with that white boy for? You know? And they're like, no, no, no, he ain't white. He's European. You know? Yeah, they were trying to justify my existence. But so a lot of my friends were into this gang and they introduced me to about three or four guys in the jail

that were looking at and ended up getting 25, 25 years. They all had murders, right? And they come to me and they go, hey, if our family bails you out, would you be willing to go home and get Haxo blades and put them in your sneakers and bring them back in for me? And, you know, being the genius that I was, I'm like, yeah, I'll do it, like, you know?

And they never did. My father bailed me out. But I told my friends, I'm like, hey, these guys need hacksaw blades. So my father had been machinist. I don't know if I mentioned that? Yeah. Yeah. So I went in his machine shop and we took hacksaw blades.

We cut them in half, wrapped it in plastic. And I stuck them in my sneakers. I just forgot about them because I knew we were getting in trouble all the time. You know, I figured maybe eventually I wouldn't day I would go back, you know. Do I talk too fast? No, you're doing great. Okay. So anyway, long story short, me and my friend Pat were doing stuff.

We ended up getting pinched for something. And I get to go back into the jail. So I get in there. Now I'm in the bullpen again. same bullpen and I'm looking but this time I'm watching the way they're dealing with the people coming in intake and now they're picking up soles okay they're picking up the soles of the sneakers they're taking people's sneakers off so now I'm like oh man I'm screwed right so I don't know what to do I'm thinking about taking the blades out so on and you know by the toilet you know and just like

whatever forgetting about it mission you know failed but uh there's this big cop in there name O'Too big big Irish cop like six three big monster right so I walk up to him and he's busy and I tugging shirt. I'm like a little kid. I look like a baby, dude. I'll show you pictures of me. I'm like, a little kid. So he looks down and he's like, what, what do you want? I'm like, uh, mister, um, do I got to spend the night here? And he's like, whole face breaks, right? He goes, he's like, yeah, kid. He's like, you're going to have to spend the night if your parents. Don't come get you, man. And he grabs me and brings me through all security to the, to the adolescent unit. And he tells the cop, he goes, make sure, make sure his kid's all right. And I get past security with these hacksaw blades, right?

So now I go in And I got these like fantasies in my head Of like convict prison You know, you know Keep your mouth shut Don't talk So my friends run up to me Like hey, you're back

Lettaeah You know They don't ask me About the hacksop blades Though So I'm sitting down Playing spades With them

I'm playing spades And normally they ask me nothing About the You know They forgot about the blades So I go Yeah I got those things Right

So we're playing And they go What things? I'm like The things And they're like What do you got I'm like

I got the hacksow blades Right So I'm This is where my entire illusion of, you know, convicts get shattered, well, kid convicts. They jump up, they go, yo, he's got the fucking axle blades. And they take it them, and they're looking at them. They're cutting the bars right there in the freaking day room.

And I'm like, what the fuck? So we all got pinched for that. What, they wanted to escape? That was the plan? Well, yeah, actually, and they would have, too, because where the adolescent unit was in that particular jail, they were building a new wing of the jail. So we were in the construction site. So there was no security.

So if you got through the bars and got out the window, you were gone. That was the only place in that facility you could do that. You know, it was like, it was just a coincidence. It was like 1988, you know. So you guys are all saying in the comments how big these guns are getting. And, you know, people have been coming to their own conclusions about what the reason behind that is. And let me tell you, it's not what you think. So it all starts here on this very court a few weeks ago.

I was playing a game of pickup basketball just like we did in prison. You know, every single day we'd be playing basketball in prison. And I got in the pretty good shape. doing it. But a few weeks ago when I tried to play the game, I was absolutely winded because, you know, it's been a few years since I got out of prison. And when I say winded, I was literally on the ground gasping for breath. I thought I was going to die. So I looked into why. Turns out it's not just age. As men get older, our bodies reprogram, storing fat faster, losing muscle easier, a big driver is testosterone, which for a lot of guys starts dropping as early as your 30s.

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and tell them our show sent you. So everyone in the comments, that's the secret. Get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts at men go to mars.com. In 1988, when you went to go to court, it was just a piece of paper with your name on it. No picture, no nothing. It was like the security, you couldn't even imagine how lax insecurity was. Matter of fact, I'll even tell you. One time, the kid, Jose Torres, he was a Dominican kid.

He was looking at 25 of the life. He was part of that whole Haxobloid thing. There was another guy, a grown adult named Jose Torres in the jail with traffic violations, right? So one day I'm supposed to go to court with Jose. I go, I said, you're going? He goes, no. I was like, I thought they canceled him. I get to court, and I'm in court with this Jose Torres.

And he's going, well, am I here? I got traffic tickets. So I'm looking. I'm like, I said, they fucked up. They grabbed the wrong guy, you know? So I run back, I tell Jose, we're laughing about it. Like, you're laughing, right? You know, a big, no year.

Maybe two days, three days later, they come to my Torres. And they're like, Torres, back your shit. Hop off all. And he goes, and we look at each other with it. Now we realize they think he's a traffic fighter. So he passes all the stuff to me. I hide his stuff. So he looks like a new jack, like not a guy, you know, whatever.

And they take him out and you could check. It's all in the news. And he released him by accident. It was all of a manhunt for him and everything. Did they catch him? A year later. Wow. Yeah, yeah.

Like I said, it was a check for newspapers. And, yeah, it was, I ended up getting freaking punished for that because I was hooked up with, you know, he was part of my hacksawbake crew. So they thought I was part of his, like, thing, whatever. And what was going on with your case? at the time. I had, I had, um, burglaries. They were, they were not very, you know, not, um, serious charges. No, the, uh, gun case. Wasn't that still pending? Yeah, it's a burglary, though. So they were going to just sweep that under the rug? Like, they weren't going to give you

much time for it? I ended up getting a year for that. Okay, but you had got violated. You were on bond. You got back to prison, right? Well, I got, I was, I was on, on bail. And that, that all was ever tacked into the, what you called? Oh, so that, it didn't, it didn't, It wasn't too much of a big deal that it got revoked. No, no, not at all. Okay. Not at all. Like in today's world, it's like you got, you could get like two, three, four years.

Yeah, no, no, no. I got to tell you, the stuff that I did and the amount of time I got is incredible compared to what they do with these kids today. You know, and I'll tell you some stories where like, whatever, you'll hear it later on. Where like, if I would have did today what I was doing back then, I'd be dead. The cop would kill me. Like, you know, like on that gun store thing, like I had like maybe 20, 30, cops point guns at me, you know, and I'm looking at like, and they had 38s back then.

It wasn't like, they didn't get the Glock's back then, you know, in the 80s. They didn't get that to later on. So, but today, you know, they just let you up. So, like, when no hesitation and be justified in because you're armed, you know. So, uh, I, uh, I just continued to get, I kept getting in trouble. I would, uh, uh, so when I got out from that, that year, I, uh, oh, so inside. Now, I don't know anything about crime. Like I said, I went to the library, I learned it, but inside now, I'm meeting other criminals.

And I'm learning how to steal cars, how to do this, how to do that. You know, like, I'm getting better and better. So when we get out, we start doing, we're doing burglaries again. But now we come to the attention of the more organized, I guess, if you will, call it, you know, aspects of criminal. And so, like, it was in Williamsburg, and they gave me, like, a keys to just, like, storage you. And do you get, drop it off here, we'll whack it up later on. and, you know, so now I'm with, you know, like, I'm in, like, serious crime now, like, learning, you know. So me, I'm being a big shot.

I'm like, I said, can you get guns? Can you handle guns? They're like, yeah, we can handle guns. I'm like, let's go. So I take me and my friend, we go to do another gun store. We find another gun store to do. And I end up, I end up going there with a gun, a 12-gauge shotgun. And so I'm 17 now.

16 years old, if I fired a 12-gauge shotgun, it was like this. And it would, like, kick, like, like, like, a mule. you know a year in the jail working out and I I unload this 12 gauge like was a water gun like you know I entered into the door blew the door off and uh we go and we take this place out we end up getting a lot of pistols but this wasn't like that first one I didn't even think this out or anything we get immediate cop car chase like immediate surrounded by cop we're getting like 10 50 cops and we're going yeah we're on and going now so something to tell you about me Ian under pressure like that I'm like probably four or five, six degrees

calmer than I am right now. Like I don't know what happened. High pressure stuff, I just downshift. I'm just really cool. And we're speeding and I'm telling my point. I'm like, yo, make a left here. He blows past the left. I'm like, all right, relax.

I said next time I tell you to take the left, slow down, take a left. He's scared of that. There's cops, you know, they're all of us, all over us, on us. And we end up, we get away. I jump out and I make a run for it. and I get away and I'm hiding out and the heat dies down and I ended up, I ended up in a garage,

and I'm looking at this garage and I'm saying myself, I said, man, don't hope this ain't going to be what it is, I think it is, and I go into the garage and showing off the keys are in the call, like, fuck, you know, otherwise I would say it hidden, but I get in the car, get into another cop car chase, right they chase me into another thing i get out and run end up on a boat all right they're looking for me with this boat they get me with the canine unit there's helicopters flying if you check the newspapers on the case it was a two-day chase it was from one day to the next right and uh the headline was like here's one for the keystone cops like because they would chase me for like two days you know from one night into the next and i get i get i get i get pinched for that for that and uh

I got the shit beat out of me, by the way, when they caught me. But that was a normal thing back then. I remember telling my aunt, not to change the subject. I remember telling a story one time, a different story. And my aunt, and trust me, she goes, well, they didn't hit you, right? I'm like, what do you mean? She goes, you said the cops hit you. I'm like, yeah, they hit me.

She said, you know, cops don't hit people. And I'm like, and I told her this story. So in this one, when they get me, I'll tell you this story, they get me and they want my partner. And they put me in the back of a cop car. They got a cop here and three cops in the front seat, right? I'm a cuff behind my back. And they put a milk crate in between my legs. And they start, oh, my God.

Oh, we lost the mic. Sorry. Oh, you're good. Is that better? Yeah, you can move it a little bit. Yeah, like right there. It's good. So they start beating me in my, my balls, right?

I'm like, fucking hitting me, you know, whatever. And they grab me by my nuts and twisting them, you know, and they're like, where's your bond? Where's your bond? I'm fucking like this. And like, one time, the cop grabbed my, the fat of my, my hip, you know, like my thigh. And I'm like, I pretend that it was my ball.

I'm trying to like just get a little breathing room, right? You know, whatever. So this one other cop is a rookie and he's like, he's like, he's got glasses on. He's going, he's giggling. He goes, I like this. I like this. And he head butts. And he head butts.

I'm like, what the, sick fucking cops, you know? So they bring me to the precinct and I left out one part of the story. I should have went back on. I'll tell you that a minute. So I'm in the precinct and I'm hanging from the, you know, handcuffed them, whatever, next morning. So let me stop the story. When we were being chased, I talked too fast, we're zooming and this cop pulled out in front of us and cut us off on, you know, the road. So, just so you know, if you ever have to hit a car, right, you hit him in the trunk.

That'll bounce him, right? If you hit him in the engine block, you're going to kill yourself. Like, it's like, you know, whatever. So we end up, we smashed this guy through the thing. I bounced him. I looked, I see him here. I see him. The cop bounce all over the car.

He wasn't buckled in. You know, we kept on going. And that's how the next stage with the, to the, to the. to the boat than the next car was. So now I'm in the precinct, right? And I'm all beat up and everything. I'm hanging from the thing. And this cop in the morning comes in and he looks at me.

He's like, let me see your face. He goes, show me the other side. So I turn the other side. I'm thinking, you know, it's one of these like leading heart liberal cops. Like, why they beat this kid up, you know, and he just up across me. Boom, right? My head goes white, explodes.

I look at him. And he goes, you hit me, you little bastard. And it was the cop we hit. And he forgot out of the hospital and came and beat me up in a precinct. Like, you know, like, you know, whatever. And I, listen, everything I had, everything like that, I had coming, you know. I'm not trying to say, oh, you shouldn't have hit me, you know. I was a wild kid.

Now, no one cared, the defense attorneys or the prosecutors. No, one cared that there was this violence going on. No, this was a normal thing. The only people that actually cared, believe it or not, was the canine unit. The ones that got me was because in court, they were sitting there and they were all saying, my lawyer was going, did he look like that? you know, when you arrested him, and they go, yeah, it was because he had two or three car accidents. That's why he was beat up.

They were trying to say it was from the car accidents, you know. So they asked a canine unit. That a canine unit was actually the first to get me, you know, before the guy's beat me up. And they go, when you pulled Mr. Elichers out of car, he goes, was he beat up? He goes, no. And he told the truth, you know, but still the judge dismissed it as whatever. They were not trying to like, I couldn't get a case dismissed on what you're saying, even though we tried. You know, it was a very violent time back then.

70s, 80s was a very violent, you know, time and, I don't know, you know, in crime, I guess you'd say. Now, why guns? Why did you want to steal guns so much? Would that have been a better return than, say, robbing a bank? It's what they wanted. And I would, and no, I never had an interest in robbing a bank. But you probably had the skills to pull a bank robbery off.

I had the skills. And if you would have presented to me right, I would have. I wasn't, all right. So it was going to sound weird. I wasn't interested in money. I was interested in action and, like, you know, figuring out problems. I always like, like, if you give me a problem, I'm like, all right, I got to try to figure us out. I would try to, you know, solve it.

Where do you think that comes from? My father was a Swiss precision machinist. So he was very, he had like precision type stuff. He taught me chess. I used to play chess all the time. So problem solving was just something I grew up around. Like when I was like, when I kept, I told you they kept me out of the regular schools. We ended up going to a regular school one time, just like to pass through. And they had a chess club in that with the normal kids.

And I'm like, it was a chess club. I was like, I played their best guy and beat the shit at him. I'm like, I said, you know, I should be in a school, man. Like, I could bring the chess game a little bit, you know? So, yeah, so I just, like, if my brain gets me in trouble. So what happens with this case now? You're at the precinct. So I get, I get, I go there and I ended up, I ended up going, I get in getting a five to ten,

which is going, now you're not in Rikers no more. You're not in the county environment. You're going to go to prison. And the first time I did it. It was called a county bullet. I had a county bullet, which was eight months, and they ran it consecutive with six months, five years probation. So I was in the county.

I never went to prison the first time. Now I'm going to jail. So the cool part was that the older guys would have us like in gladiator training school. You know, they had us like hanging sheets from the frigging bars and working out and everything and, you know, getting into shape. And they would school us on how prison is going to be and this. And I never knew how to like sweep a floor or mop a floor, but they told me how to mop and sweep

because that's how you get around prisons. Like you sit there and you can sweep, you know, like, you know, to go from section to section. I was, I was well-groomed, well-schooled by the older convicts. And the convicts that I was schooled by were like, they were schooled by the, like the Prohibition Days, like the, hey, get, man, like those guys, and, you know, the gangsters.

And so this is all trickled down to me. And so I get sent to, I get sent to prison, prison. And my first freaking day in prison, I seen like it was a, like I seen. So, all right. So now that now, now there's rules involved with being a, uh, with certain people. Like in my, my group, you have to like, you can't have any kind of bad charges, like rape or child molestation or, you can't have told. You know, you got to be a stand-up guy. And there's like three rules you got to follow.

No gambling, no homosexuality. And no, uh, no gambling, no homosexuality. And no, what the fuck's the third rule? Why am I banking out here? No, uh, whatever, I'll come to me a minute. So when I get there. Was it drugs, no drugs, or? No gambling, no drugs or no, yeah, I don't do drugs.

So I didn't even, like, it wasn't even a hard one for me, you know? No drugs, no gambling. No, uh, no fucking around with the face. We're homosexuals. So when I get there, my first day, this, uh, black guy is going home. His name's Manhattan. called him. His name is Brown. His name was Manhattan. This big. Crackhead skinny, right? I'll tell you this for a reason. So he's in a relationship with a, with a homosexual, and he goes to the guy who's, hey, I want to, like, do you, whatever you tell a homosexual guy.

You want to do something with him. And the guy's like, no, I'm not with you no more. You're going home. I'm with this guy. So back then you had these, like, potato cans that they used to use for butt cans, like, you know, put out cigarette butts because you could smoke back then. And he cuts the bottom of that can that lid and he freaking folds it up and he chops this. guy up right in front of me. And he runs out and he chases him and he just cutting him. And then all these big, super big Cs come running in. They grab this crackhead skinny dude, you know,

and like six, seven cops. And he throws all them off him and kicks the sergeant his nose, breaks his nose. I'm like, oh my God. I wouldn't get that crazy over a supermodel. He went that crazy over a dude, you know? So that was like, that's part of the reason why you don't mess around with homosexuals because that's a problem.

Like, they're like, you know, Like later on, I'll tell you later on, like this is in the future. I'm in one of the worst prisons I've ever been, and it was because the COs separated, these two homosexuals, and I killed the cop. And then the cop were like backlash on us. So anyway, my first time I'm in, like, I'm in this prison. And I just, I learn my ways.

And I got a five to ten, right? So I left one part out of there. So when I get to reception, they do my, how much time I did? and they made a mistake. They had tacked on the first year that I did onto this bit. So now, so she goes,

you have 834 days credit. I don't have that. I got like 300, right? I go, I go, oh, there must be some kind of mistake. She was, what do you mean? I said, I got more time than that. She looks, she goes, no, you have 800. That's why you have some 800.

I must have to have 800. That's like a year and a half extra. And my friend Andy's like, he goes, you're not getting away with that. As soon as you go for work release, they're catching that, right? And they didn't. I ended up getting work release

freaking, you know, a head. So on a five to ten, I did three years on a five to ten, you know, a break that I, a miracle that I, that I, of course, you know, ignored and went back into life, you know, crime again. So you're supposed to only, or you would have done five minimum on the five to ten? You do five to five minimum, and then you order to a board, parole board, and then you could, you know, depending on your behavior in prison, you know, you can go home or not. So you got two years earlier? Yeah, I'm walking the yard one day and me and my friends doing my five to ten. And the council walks by. And he sees me, was, oh, Atris, he goes, you want to go to KSAT?

I'm like, what's KSat? He's like a drug program. I said, what does that mean? He goes, you do six months, you go home. I'm like, yeah, I want to do KSat. So he sent me to this, like, program, and I did it, and I got out early. I got, whatever. That was it.

So I was still, I think I'm 20, I was 20 years old, about 10, 21. And what year is this? That is 91. 91. And, yeah, because my state number was 91A, 2365. I remember I was yesterday. So you think, all right, yeah, you've been through all this stuff, you know, you got a break, you know, you'd go back to, no. So part of my release thing was I had to go to this Phoenix house and every, once a week just to, you know, go in there and sit down from meeting as part of the release program, you know, kept you, you know, on your toes.

I kept you like in the good way. What I do, I meet a guy there, a friend of mine, becomes a friend of mine, and what he was doing was he was stealing cars, you know? he takes me to his block and he's got like 10 Cadillacs on the street and I'm like what are you doing with these things he's like nothing I'm like he just deals in the steel like he had like you know he had a collection of Cadillacs he was stealing right so I'm like give him to me I'll bring him to the Bronx you know chop shops and we'll make some money he goes all right so we were doing that right so we had this little thing going where I would take his cars to the chop shops

and one of my friends this black kid comes up to me he goes um he goes hey you go to the Bronx tonight I said yeah he goes you'll take me with you because I got a girl up the Bronx. I'm like, I'm bringing a stolen car to a chop shop. I'm not going to, you know, for a booty call, motherfucker. And he's like, oh, please, please. You get pressure me, pressure me, but I'm like, I, let's go. So we get in the car and we go to the Bronx and it's a bad neighborhood. It's Jerome Avenue. You ever heard of that? Yeah, it's like probably one of the worst neighborhoods in the Bronx. So I'm in Jerome Avenue and next thing you know, the lights come on and I get to a chase, right? Yeah. So by the way, stop. I hit me stop. So I don't do drugs,

right but I am addicted to like adrenaline I can tell and there's no greater one like when you then lights go on behind you that's like you're bloody just gets flooded with like you know adrenaline so that was my big thing this is the exact drink that the tech guy who's trying to live forever takes every single morning one scoop came out of years of longativity research I just turned 31 a few weeks ago and it already got me thinking about getting older and when I'm 60 years old I don't want to feel like crap so I have to do the work now to feel like good at 60 and not when I actually turn 60. I'm already noticing the little stuff, especially when I don't get a good night's sleep.

Nothing major, but something to start thinking about, especially now that I'm getting older. That's why I started taking Blueprints Longativity Mix. If you've been online the past few years, you've seen the founder, Brian Johnson, the don't die guy, basically running himself as a science experiment to age slower than the rest of us. This is what he takes every morning, one scoop in water, mix, done. That scoop helps support energy, focus, mood, sleep, cognitive performance, cellular resilience, and healthy aging. For me, the biggest thing's been feeling more on throughout the day, steadier focus in the afternoon, and a way better night's sleep.

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Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. So I get into this chase, we're driving under the elm, and we're speeding. So the kid Mackey's like, yo, yo, yo, pull over, pull over, pull over. So I'm thinking he knows the neighborhood. It's his neighborhood, right?

I'm like, I pull over. He jumps out. I jump out behind him. He throws his hands up. I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? Right? So now I get pinched with this kid. So what we do was we're in the bullpins and we're taking like M&Ms off the floor. We're putting them in our fingerprints. We're trying to like, you know, dirty our fingers. Mess the fingerprints up. So we go in there, we do the fingerprints and we give fake names, right? So he comes back. He goes, it works. It works. I'm like, oh, this is great. We're getting out of this, right? So I go my lawyer's office and he He goes, you've been arrested before?

I'm like, no, sir. And he goes, never been arrested before? I said, no, sir. He's like, you've never been arrested before. I'm like, uh, maybe. And he goes, and pulls out my friggin rap sheet, right? And I'm like, all right, yeah, you got me. So my prince come back.

He got away with it. I get pinched, right? So I end up going back to, back to prison. I get a, this is 93. I got an 83 number. And, uh, this is where, um, I come to the attention of, you know, the serious guys in like, you know, in the life they call it, like, you know, all life. And they take an interest to me and I start becoming groomed for like, you know, like a higher level of crime, I guess, if you will.

And I finished my time up. I, you know, I do my state bid. I do three years. I ended up my first time at a maximum security prison, right? So they sent me to this Green Haven. You ever heard of that? Yeah. So I go to Greenhaven, and what happened was I got charged with a weapon,

so they sent me to Greenhaven, and I'm on Key Block, right? So this is where the attraction of being in the criminal life comes from. Because now I'm with these, like, more sophisticated members of crime. You know, I'm talking about, like, New York City. I'm talking about the Irish, the Albania, the Greeks, the Italians. Like, those guys, they're all like, you know, they're all a certain level of, it's called organized, O.C., New York OC. So I'm around these guys now.

And I'm on keep block, and everybody on keep block, well, the other white guys, they're wondering, you know, can I get on a court? Can I get on a court? Can I get on a court? So if you can imagine this table has the yard in prison. They have sections around the outside perimeter that are called courts. Okay?

So like from here to here is a court and so on and so forth, right? So like the Muslims have a court, the Dominicans have a court, the Latin kings have a court, the whites have a court. And on this court, you'll have like a heavy bag, speed bag, weights, a picnic table, a little storage spot. So you have to be like really, really accepted to get on the court. You can't just, nobody just goes on a court. You have to be brought in, you know.

You have to know somebody or have, you know, a good case and they have to make an argument. Hey, can he come on? Can he cannot come on? So that's how you, you know. So these guys are all like, oh, I wonder if we can get on the court, you know? I ain't saying nothing. And then a couple, you know, a couple weeks into our keep lock time. This guy, Buffalo comes down to me with Roger.

Yeah, you go, yo, when you get out of here, just come out, come out, come right to the court, and I'll introduce you to everybody. So they all looking at me like, you know, who the fucks this kid, you know? And I end up going on the court. So my, so they give me a job in the unit as an orderly, right? So orderly is a good job because you could go throughout the whole jail. You can move, you know? I'm not to take this hat off.

Yeah. So I'm sitting there and I, my first time, my first day there was before I go meet the guys in the yard, this big Irish kid, Red, grabs me and goes, yo, you're orderly? Yeah, hi, here. I'm with you. My name's Red.

Bo-bah. I'm going to show you our job tomorrow. Teach you how to, you know, sweet through jail and everything. And, you know, good to meet you. Right. I said, I'm going to go to yard

and meet everybody in the court, right? So I go out there. And I'm like a little kid. Like, you know, I'm 20, 20 years old, 21. That's 21, 2021. And I'm meeting all these, like, legends. I'm hearing their names forever, like, you know?

And they're all mean, like, like, like, like, eh, like that. Right? I'm like, wow, this is real prison. This is great. Like, fucking, you know. So, uh, I mean, all these, like, you know, tough guys and stuff. So I go back to my unit and I walk into my cell and my knees buckle.

I'm like, what the fuck? My bed's covered in cakes, pies, you know, little cupcakes and stuff. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, somebody's trying to fuck me, right? So I run the mic, I by awake, oh, Mike, get up. He's his name red, it was really in his mic. I'm like, yo, my name's red. He's real name.

What, what, what? I said, you get your sneakers on. someone's trying to fuck me, man. There's cakes all over my bed. He goes, I put the cakes on your bed. He goes, that's part of our job. Like, we get all the stuff from commissary that's outdated. That's our perk.

Like, they give it to us. I gave you half your, that's your stash. I was like, all right, you know? So, it was not. It was a mistake, you know, my imagination more wild. And so I ended up, I didn't, I didn't last, they wouldn't let me stay too long in that prison because, like, that's for, like, real serious people.

I was only for weapons charge, you know? But they had to pry me out of there because I really, like, I liked it. You know, like, you've seen action every day. It was, it was an eye-opening experience. You know, I was with, I locked next to this guy, Winston Mosley. I don't know if you ever heard of him. In the 60s, he had killed Kitty Genovese.

He was like one of most heinous crimes in America, in New York, whatever. Like, he killed her, and she was screaming for help and ever ignored her. You know, it's a famous, famous case. I locked next to him. I wasn't allowed to talk to him, but, like, I was with the two guys that killed Malcolm X. I was with, who was in that jail? The guy, Ronnie Defeo, from the Amity of a horror,

he killed his whole family. Yeah. And, yeah, that was... He was in that prison, too? Yeah, I was on the same court with him, you know? So this went all the way up to lifers at Greenhammon? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a maximum security prison. But you didn't have nearly that amount of time.

I had no business being in that jail. They had no business. Like, they... So when I first went in, I'm sitting there. I came from Odysville, Otisville estate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not the feds.

And they have pool tables in Oldesville, right? So when I get there, the cop, they're like, it's like in the movies. They grab you, you get off the bus, and they surround you. We have a problem with you. I'm like, oh, sir, you know, like that kind of shit. And anyway, they're going to my property and he pulls out a pool chalk. He goes, what the fuck is this?

I went, pool chalk. He goes, you're going to hate you here. You know, because I was coming from like a sweet joint to a max, you know. But I ended up, I liked it because I don't care how hard a jail is. I care if there's good people, like, you know, type of thing. So I end up, yeah, I went to, they sent me down all the way down to like, I went down to a medium, then to a low, I end up going home. Staples Preferred Business Membership, built for busy business owners,

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Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip. They stay for hours.

They don't move on. They manifest. They're not a demographic group. They're fans. Spotify advertising. You're among fans. I went to home in, um, on that one in 95. So all these organized crime guys, they stick together or do they separate against each other when they're in there?

No, stick together. They stick together. Yeah. Doesn't matter what faction or family you come from. Absolutely not. Yeah. So, and we're not just talking about, so you're, you know, I'm not just talking about like the Italian. No, I'm saying everyone.

Everyone. Yeah. So what happened was in the state, so there's a, I'll get to the difference in between the state and the feds in a minute. but the state is, black guy told me, the difference between the state and the feds is like the state's physical. Feds is mental, right? And so you know the difference between like bodybuilders and weightlifters?

Bodybuilders and power lifters, right? Like, you know, it's two different things. So like states like power lifters and the feds are like bodybuilders. You know what I mean? It's like a different discipline, but it's just whatever. It's just different. So in there, you're in the state. you're you're joined more on um racial than then then group wise in the fedsy it's the same thing

i just told you though they stick together but i'll get to that in a minute but um anyway i end up going home in 95 and uh i have uh i'm doing good i'm i got a cafe in a bronx and i'm i'm in so i'm involved in this life i should like that the the the idea of going straight or whatever has never occurred to me because everyone else, you know, is in this life. It's like, it's like everybody I know is doing this. So, like when you're in prison, like in a state prison, everybody you're in jail with are people you're with from the streets. And when you go home, the people you're with at home are people you with in jail.

Like, you know, like he's intermingled, you know. And they go, like, oh, yeah, Ian's back. Where's he at? Oh, he's here. All right. Send him a package, you know. And in the state, it's not like the feds. I don't know if you know that. They get food packages, trailer visits with your wife, you know, your family.

So it's not, like, real. It's like, you know, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like, you know, it's brutal, there's bad things that happen. But it's not like, oh my God, I'm never doing this again type of thing, you know. So I'm out now and, uh, like an idiot, but I never did an arm robbery, right? So I figured, uh, you know, this was time to up my game and we saw I put this crew together and we started doing arm robberies. I thought you're out the last door with a gun. No, no, no, no, it was a burglary. You said you had a gun, though.

I blew the door off with the gun. I didn't tell somebody, get on the floor. Oh, so that's a difference between the armed robbery. There's nobody in burglaries. Okay. I've never ever, I never, I never, so what I, we try to do it. I try to stay away from civilians. We don't, so not all people, like, we don't mess with people that are legit, you know.

If anybody gets hurt, it's, you know, some, it's like other, other criminals. Got it? So, it's actually, like, it's frowned upon if you do hurt a civilian, you know? You try to avoid that all costs. And sometimes it happens, you know. I had a friend of mine just now. He was getting chased by the cops. It's famous.

And then he ended up hitting her. She ran a car with a bike and killed her. Yeah. Tragic. You know, and the guy, so well, like,

I know he's horrified by it. But these things happen. Like, to me, that's my worst nightmare. That, you know, somebody's an innocent could get hurt

and something that we did. So I started that. We started doing jewelry stores. And, uh, I was at, actually good at it, only because, like, when I was away, I would talk, like, if I knew you, like I say, oh, yeah, what are you here for?

And you tell me, how did you get caught? And then, you know, I would have that my, my rollerdex, my buying by how you got caught. So I, from speaking people over the years, I learned, like, all right, don't do this, don't do this, don't do that. So I actually put a good crew together when we were doing, you know, these good scores and stuff like that. And what I would do is I would grab you, like, you're from Connecticut, right? And I grabbed, like, June.

He's from Rochester. You don't know, neither one of the people. I grabbed somebody from, like, you know, Long Island or the Bronx. Nobody knew each other. They all knew me. You're all friends through me. So God forbid somebody went bad, I'm the only guy that could get hurt. Like, you know, I don't want, you know, I don't want, like, I fucking break a whole crew down type of thing.

So I was doing that. And then, and then what happened was in the cafe one night and I should have showed you my wanted picture. We could put it up on screen. All right. You can do that? Yeah, yeah, just send me all the photos. Oh, you go to Leticia. Hey, Lettia, pull that up.

So anyway, I'm in the cafe one night and all these guys come in to have to fight somebody was in my cafe, right? So I walk out, I'm like, what the fuck is this? You know, my friend Chris is like, he goes, they're here for Anthony and he goes, that one, that one, that one, they got guns, right? So I'm like, I said,

don't fuck out of this. I pull a gun out. I got 337 mega, I'm like, shoot in the air. I'm like, boom, I said, get the fuck out of here. So everyone leaves. Now I'm in, this is Pelham Bay, the Bronx, right? And I tell everybody, like, in my neighborhood, you could shoot somebody in front of 30 people

and nobody's telling on you. You ain't no witnesses. Nobody's saying nothing, you know. So everybody scatters, right? And like five guys stand there ground. So now I get scared because I'm thinking, ah, you know, they got guns. So I go to throw a shot at the ground.

Like, you know, we'll shoot at the ground. Like, you know, I said, oh, he said, get the fuck out of here. But I'm like the worst shot in the fucking underworld. I fucking shoot the guy in the leg and drops. Right? So I'm like, fuck, you know, he drops. And I'm like, I turn around, like, shut the gate, you know.

And I ended up getting away. And now I said, you know, How many people were there, 30? Guess how many witnesses were, I guess? How many, how many, how many, how many, how many, uh, people said I shot the guy? Zero. 30. Every, all of them told him.

Oh, they, they decide to snatch. Yeah, everybody told them. Oh. The only one that stood up was the kid I shot. Like, he stood his ground. Like, he said, no, it wasn't Roger. But anyway, so now I'm on, I'm on the run. So they got the guy, I'm on New York's most wanted, you know?

And, uh, I'll show you to picture later on. So they, they posted up the neighborhood. So I'm hide now. I'm hired out. I'm hired out in Jersey. And, uh, I'm driving one day. I see a cop car

you know he drives by he looks at me I look at him I'm looking in the rear of mirror and he turns around I'm thinking I thought that he like maybe recognized my picture from the water poster

so I take off I'm going to a high speed chase right and he chases me and whatever I ended up getting off getting away and and running they end up capturing me and it was trying to pull me over for the

tinted windows and in New York in New York is legal but in Jersey it's not That was a stupid, like stupid thing. So I ended up getting, I got pinched for that. So I go to, I get locked up in New Jersey. So I always tell, oh, so I get, I get arrested.

The cop goes, what's your name? I went under arrest. He goes, you're not going to tell me your name. So I just stare at him. And he goes, what's your name? I went under arrest. He's like, we're going to find out your name anyway. I just, I don't, because when I get arrested in the prison, I'll talk.

I'll say nothing, you know? And the reason I tell you that is because I always tell you that people like, hey, don't say nothing. No. I did five years in Jersey as John Doe because I wouldn't tell my fucking name, you know? That was the story behind that. I ended up, so I go to Jersey,

and it was an interesting experience. I never, I was in central Jersey, and it was just like a lower class of criminal. Like, these guys were all like, you know, like one guy walked up to me and goes, he's like, he's like, yo, they're calling you John Doe. He goes, you're caught, just cooperate, make it easy on yourself, you know?

I'm just like, what the fuck, am I an alien? you know, like alien fucking world or something like that. You know, all these guys like, they're not convicts, whatever. I end up, so like a lot of the white guys were getting picked on by the black guys, right? And there was the five percenters again that were there. And they were robbing everybody. And I'm just, I handle myself the way I handle myself.

So they don't fuck with me. Like, they just leave me alone. But I'm watching them, like, abuse all these guys. There's a reason from telling you all this. So I told these one guys, I'm like, yo, you guys got to speak up for yourself. Man, like, don't just sit there and, like, take this abuse. Like, you know, it's going to keep happening if you don't stand up yourself. And like, no, I don't care.

They don't put their hands on me. I don't do what I don't do. I'm like, I said, they raise their voice to me. Watch what the fuck I do lead to these motherfuckers. So, sure enough, I get into a beef with the head guy. It was Kingborn, right? Damon Thomas. How do I know his name?

It'll be in a minute. So, we're playing a poker game, He's trying to take the pot, and I'm like, I'm arguing with him. I'm saying, no, this is a split pot. You only put this up. You know what pull light means? Pull light for whatever. You don't have chips.

So you call pull light. It means if you lose the pot, you've got to match the pot later on. So he's pulling light the whole thing. So at the end, when we win the pot, he's trying to take half the pot. I'm like, no, no, because we had a split pot. I'm like, no, you're pulling light. This is my, you know thing. So he goes, you keep up that New York slick shit, I'm going to smack you.

I'm like, what did you say? He goes, you keep up that New York slick shit, I'm going to smack you. something like, you know what? I said, kiss me out of this game. I get up and leave, right? And I've told all my friends from New York, I'm like, what does that mean? They're like, you're going to do something.

No, not in there, though. Yeah, you're right. But they don't know that. They're like, they're just so used to, like, people not doing nothing. So I was in a, I was in a place you couldn't make a weapon. There's no weapons to be made. It was no nothing. It was like a, I was in this, like, a unit and no cop on the unit.

Cops are outside in a bubble, and they had a camera. The camera's broken. So we're like, we're all by, ourselves. There's nobody in there. So cops come and you're on your own. And this particular gang, they're like related to each other. They're all like family members or whatever. So I know when I hit one, I'm hitting them all right. So my thing in my mind is like, all right, I'm gonna fucking, I'm just gonna really hurt one, one guy really, really bad and take this ass open and go about my business. The year before I got there, they had beat, not this particular cool, but but the guys in

the jail, they beat a guy to death. They beat him, you know. So I was in the back of my head, like, You know, like I'm in a place with no cop, no nothing, you know, all steel, everything's steel. You know, I could, you know, get killed for this. So what I do is, uh, I boil baby oil in a microwave. I fill this up, I have like a little jaw baby oil. I have enough. So I do as, uh, to fill the rest of the cup up, I put lysol in, with the baby oil. Yeah.

This is, will become significant, too, with the story. So I'm boiling the oil, like these guys are playing poker. They're oblivious. They don't have no idea what's about to come their way. So I'm boiling the oil. And you know how they show them. movies in jails, whatever. So it was like the weekly movie was on.

They were showing from dust till dawn. And it was like a surreal moment. I'm like, I'm boiling oil. You know, I'm a little nervous. And I'm watching these guys turn into vampires. And I'm going, the fuck is it going on here. Like, you know? So I take the oil and I'm walking to the poker game.

So my friend Basin is Muslim dude. He sees me. And he thinks I got a cup of coffee in my hand. He's like, yo, Raj, let me drink with you. He wants him with some coffee. I'm like, nah, Bosch, you don't want none of this. I push him out of the way. And I catch Damon right in his face, right?

So he jumps up and we go at it. We're fucking boom. We're slipping in oil. And I know everybody tells stories like, oh, yo, this guy's big. He's muscles and everything like that. This guy was big in muscles. All right.

And toe to toe, I can't fight this guy. You know, I'm going to get my ass cake. But we were, I hit him with the oil and he was all fucked up. So we're wrestling and we're slipping. So we come to an impasse and the other guy's like, yo, God, do me get him off you, God?

Do you want me to get him off you, God? He's like, yeah, God, get him off me. He threw hot bleach at me. He threw hot bleach at me. So he's smelling the baby away with the lightsore And in his brain it's it's bleach So they pull me off they pull me off Sorry about that

And they spread out And he runs to go wash his face And they look I'm waiting to get the shit beat out of me And they're standing to go Yo, where did you get the bleach from? And I'm like this I'm looking My brain works fast right So I'm going these guys are caught off guard

They don't know what they're saying They're just talking they're gonna get their feet together In a minute and they're gonna fuck me up So I grab a deck brush It's like a broom with a scrub brush and I go to go after Damon again, King born. I go after him and one guy jumps up. He's like, yo, he had enough.

And I like crack him in his head and drop him, right? And then I don't remember anything after that. I had this was a big fight. Only I remember was like, and this guy, this guy, Sinbad, a Latin king guy grabs me. And he said, he had enough, he had enough. Right? So I must have got the shit. I got the shit beat out of me.

So if you look, I got my nose, that was shattered right there. I don't even know how this happened. I don't find this out until like two years later how my nose got broken, right? I'll get to that in a minute. So I go into my cell and my nose is bleeding, right? It won't stop and Simba is in there. And there's this black dude runs in the room. He comes in to fight me, right?

I'm done. I got no fight in me. My legs are weak, right? I'm freaking like rubber. My nose is bleeding. I square off and I just bluffs. I'm like, let's go, let's go. And he looks at me, he runs out, right?

Pure bluff. Anyway, cops come. They lock me up. So we all, like six of us went to the hospital at night. The guys from the oil and the thing. and me because the blood ran out of my nose into my ear and the ambulance guys were like, we know the blood ran into your ear,

but we can't be sure that the blood's not running out of your ear, so we got to give you an MRI. So they take me to the hospital, and I hate this guy screaming all night, like, you know, and I hate a doctor, he's like 100% coronial damage in the left eye, and I melted his face and everything, you know. So they pressed charges on me. I had more, more bail and charge of serious charge

than the cop car chase, you know? So I end up, I get, I get that time run concurrent with what I had. It was like four years. And in Jersey, never heard of this my entire life, but Jersey, at that time, you only did a 30 a time. So if you had 12 years, you did four, you had four, you did 19 months, whatever, that type of type of time. And I ended up getting like four years for the whole everything put together.

So I did two and a half years on that. I made the, my board. So the two and a half years with that. And I get done with that. Now I got over back and face a parole violation in New York, you know. Now Jersey still never figured out who you were or they eventually did. Oh, yeah, it filled out. I was John Doe, Roger.

I was, you know, the whole time. So they changed it from John Doe to Roger? They kept me as John Doe. Oh. But they had me as, like, you know, in parentheses, my name. Okay. So now what happened was, I'll tell you what funny story one time. It was like, you know, because I did the oil thing.

I was kind of, you know, I made like a little name for myself with these people. So one day, I'm expecting retaliation from these guys, right? I'll tell you that before I go to New York. So one day I'm walking in the hall. This shows you how bad jersey was. So I, for New York people, I walk down the hall, I see his black guy looking at me, right? So I'm like, here we go, right?

So he looks at me, I look at him and he goes, yo, you're from the Bronx? I'm like, I'm from the Bronx. I'm like, yo, I'm from the Bronx. I heard what you did. Fuck these motherfuckers if you need me. I got your back. Fuck these rats, motherfucker.

Like he was like, he was going through the same type of tension I was going through like with these guys. You know, it was bad. It was like mid, I don't want to make it out like jerseys like that. It was mid-juris like that. Jersey, you know, like Southern Jersey, not Northern Jersey. Northern Jersey is more like us. They're more like gangster. But these guys in the middle, they would just, they would tell it dropped for a hat. So it was upsetting. So they, I end up going to prison, right? Before I go to New York,

I'll tell you a couple of things because I went, when I went to prison there, I ended up, I was in, I went to a jail where they killed the cop. I just told you that, they separated the homosexuals. So when I get to this jail, it was like the most brutal, brutal prison I've been in. Like they were beating guys up left and right and getting away with it because it was just green light for the cops, you know? And one time I'm sitting there, I get sent to the hole for cutting an onion, you know, with a can'top lid. Not everybody does that, right?

You know, some sergeant put on, he decided to lock me up for having a weapon. It was just a raise, just a cantop led to cut an onion. Even the lieutenants were like, this is a miscarriage of justice. They said, yo, listen, Lentris, just, listen to what the officers say, don't, you know, to Simon says box is. You know what assignment says boxes? and you're about to find out what the Simon says box is. So I go to, I've been, I know what Simon says boxes.

So I go in there and these guys are in like combat gear. They're not in regular CO's uniform. They're in like SWAT team uniforms, you know, with little gloves on. And they both grab me by arms, right? I fucking pick me up and bring me up to myself. They walk me in and they're like, they are, so it's like six cops behind me, one cop in front of me. They're like kneel on the bed, right? So I get down, I kneel.

So I put your head on the bed, put my head on the bed, handcuffed by my head on back, right? So he gets on top of me. And he's like, I'm going to uncuff your right hand. When I uncuff your right hand, take your right hand and put it on top of your head. If you do anything but put your right hand on top of your head, I'm going to take it as an act of aggression and act accordingly. Do you understand what I just said to you? I'm like, yes, sir. He goes, take your right hand and put on top of your head. Now you don't move. If you do anything, before they tell you do it now, they're going to fuck you up. All right? That's the assignment says box. So you wait. Like if someone's out, if you're on a wall and tell you lift your left leg up, you

wait, you know, lift your leg up. Do it now. Then you do it. Because if you don't, they're going to bang you out, twist you up. Because in the state, they put their hands on you. It's not like the feds. All right. They fuck you up. So my right hand goes to the butt top of my head. He goes, I'm going to cuff your left hand. Take your left hand and put on top of your head. If you do anything, but put your left hand on top of your head, I'm going to take it as an act of aggression and act accordingly. Do you understand what I just said to you? Yes, sir. And this goes on for an hour until I'm buck naked, you know, on the friggin, on the bed. Now he reaches down. He picks me up by the back of my neck, like a fucking kitten, right?

So I'm face, I can't see what's going behind me. I'm facing the wall, and I'm mad because I'm naked and a man touched me, like, like, angry, right? So he's like, pick your left foot up, do it now, pick your right foot up, do it now. He's like, turn around. I turn around, and I'm looking at all the cops like this.

Like, just waiting for me to fuck up so they can beat me up. That's their recreation. They're like, looking to beat you up, like, fuck you up. So now I'm like, oh shit, you know, all the anger's gone. I'm like, all right, they pick you nuts up. You know, I do the whole fucking thing. And they leave me in the same. self. I just told you that story so you know how like with the violence like that, you know,

was in that prison system, you know. So I ended up, I ended up making it through that jail. It was, it was pretty rough. I actually even told the cop one time. I'm like, uh, I said, if you had a machine, you could put me through that would like show you like what I'm thinking. You wouldn't let me out of it. You kill me, you know, because I was like, I was really stressed out over his cops. Like I want to like, you know, come back and do something to them. But, you know, you never do. Anyway, I get out and, uh, right, because, uh, the cops knew, cops can pick me up. They bring me to Rikers. And I get, um, six months time served. So I'm going home, you know, right there. It's 99. You know, I'm like, oh, this is great. You know, I'm going

home. And, uh, they send me to prison. I go to prison, you know, about to do, you know, I even see my friends up there. They go, yo, what's going on? I'm out of here, man. Yo, I'm going home. And like, oh, I'm just starting my bit. My friend, my friend Dominic, right? I'm like, I'm sorry. He said, you need me to do anything for you. I got you. Right. He's starting his bit. I'm going home. Got it. Right. One day they called me. go, yo, you got to go to the visiting room. Like, what's going on? I go, parole hearing. I said, I got a parole hearing. I said, I got a pro hearing.

I got six months time served. He goes, you got a parole hearing. So I walk in, I'm like, I said, yo, I got six months time served in Rikers. And the guy's like giggling like this. He's running. He's like jumping his feet. He's all happy, the parole officer. He goes, did you, you just came from New Jersey? I said, yeah, he goes, you had two aggravated assaults on policing there? Because two cops, they said aggravated assault because they got hurt chasing me. I didn't touch them, but they got hurt.

So because they got hurt, they put aggravated assaults on me. And I'm like, yeah. And they go, oh, that's such and such class. Now you're not, you can't get six months time service. So they end up deuceing me. So I got two and a half years now. I don't got six months. I got the six months I had to, I just did.

And then two more years, I got deuced that, you know. So I end up having to do two and a half years for that, right? So I get out in 2002, right? And like, I get a job in the union. I'm freaking done. Like, you know, I'm working like, you know, regular. I'm not doing nothing. And sure enough, I just, it's a lifestyle.

You don't get away from the lifestyle. If you don't transform yourself, you don't walk away, you're going to fall back into the crime. And I did. I was telling everybody when I was away, I was like, yo, anybody goes home and gets back into, you know, O.C. It's like an idiot. You deserve every year you get. And I got back into it. So I got back out.

I get back into the, you know, the crime business. And so there was one kid. It was a big pot dealer. And he fucked a few people over. and he was so let me stop real quick so in all world like if you got a problem with me and I'm sitting there doing something wrong you're telling me Roger stop doing that you know and I go yeah yeah yeah you know right whatever I continue to do it I continue like you know rob and you sneaking you know whatever you're like yo you can't sue me right so what's the end result

what happens it happens after you get done and done and done telling me to stop doing it it's got to be physical you're going to kill me yeah so that's where people get killed from But no one ever sees it coming. People never see, you know, whatever. So this kid, he, he, a lot of bad things he did. And I don't want to, like, I don't want to speak ill or that or nothing like that. But anyway, he comes to me and he goes, hey, I want to burn my connect up in Canada. I'm like, why don't fuck would you want to burn your connect to Canada?

He's like, I just do. I don't really, I found out later on why he wanted to do it. You know what I didn't realize the time. But whatever. I was like, all right. I'll go with you. if you want, you know. So he takes me up there. We go up to do this thing. And when I get up there, I got a silence 380. And I get up there and we end up not going to Canada. We end up having

them come to us. And we were supposed to meet in New York. We ended up meeting in Vermont. Okay. This is significant. So they come down. There's like a ferry or something that goes whatever to New York and then they cross over to Vermont. It's easy for them to do something like that. or they drove. But anyway, we're in Vermont and Burlington. Yeah. And I get out. This kid's, like, he's just like, like oblivious.

He walks in and gets to hotel. I'm checking the whole place out. I'm in and out. I got the back doors. I got all the exits, that and the other thing. For nothing and nothing's going to happen. This is a regular, simple meeting. You know, he's going to burn and connect, you know, take stuff and leave, right?

So I'm sitting in the car. He comes back to me. He goes, yo, yo, yo. They brought the truck with all the pot, and they brought another car with shooters. He's like, they brought shooters with them. They bought shooters with them. He goes, you're killers. I see it.

I know they're killers. I know they're killers. Right. So I'm like, all right. Somehow you fucked up. You tipped them. Like you made them nervous. Whatever you did.

I don't know what you were telling them on the phone, but you made them nervous. So it's over. We're out of here. We leave it. No, no, I need this. I'm like, there is no need this. There's nothing. You can't do this.

It's over. It's over. It's over. It's over. Right. So now I'm looking at these guys and idiotic me, my brain starts clicking through the motions, right? I start seeing an angle here. So he comes back to the thing.

I said, all right, listen, I think we could do this. He's like, what? I'm like, go tell them I think they're cops and I want to go home. He's like, what? I said, go tell them, I think they're cops, and I'm scared. And he goes and he tells them that and they're looking at me. He comes back, he goes, they want to talk to you. So I'm going like this, right?

I'm going. I said, just give it a few minutes. I said, let one of my own. come talk to me. I said, just tell him I'm nervous. I don't want to do nothing with this, right? So he goes, he's talking to him. So now he said, one of their guys is over. The guy gets out. He goes, I talk to you. I said, listen, man, I don't want to do this. I just want to go home, man. I just want to go home. I won't make eye contact. I was just like, they're looking down, right? And he's going, he's like, yo, relax, take it easy. You, we've done this a lot.

It's just you and me. We're going to go in a hotel. Count the money. I'm going to give you the stuff, but you can leave. I'm like, no, sir, I'm good. I'm good. I'm good. I'm I just don't want to do this. I want to go home. I want to go home. You know, I keep repeating like Forrest Gump or something, you know. So, anyway, he can talk. I'm like, okay, just, just, just, it was.

So I agreed to it was me, him, and somebody else, right? So I said, all right, all right. So what I'm doing is I'm separating them now. So I already know the back of the place. I know the hotel because I checked the place out before. So now we go to the front of the hotel. We go in. The guys with the guns go and they part.

The guy with the truck stays in the back. The guys with the guns go, watch the, the front of the hotel. I separated them now, right? So now I go in with these guys. And when I get them in a room, it's just me and them. And I fucking pull my gun out. I get on the floor, jerk off. And I fucking, I tied them up. But if I cut the, uh, the wires from the telephone. Yeah, telephone. No, no, no, the lamps. And I used that. I tied them up. I take their keys and I fucking run out. Right. So now I leave. I sneak back. And I'm watching. They're still in the front like this. Watching, you know, and I fucking jacked their truck. And I take it out to the back road.

So now, I'm by myself. I'm in a, it's like a Jeep Cherokee or something like that. So I'm on the back road. I'm nervous. I move a little too fast. It's icy roads. It's like ice. And I start slipping and sliding.

I'm going to slide. I'm going to fall backwards into a ditch. Right? Now I'm stuck. I can't get out. Now I got freaking pictures of Montreal hitmen coming up and killing me. I'm like, ah, right? So I look down and like a light, a beam of moonlight lights up the bottom.

I see four-wheel drive. I hit the four-wheel drive and I get out of there and I get away, you know? So the kid I'm with, he fucking left me, you know? So I'm calling him up and I'm like, oh, what's up? He goes, whoa, what the fuck? I'm like, dude, I got, I, you got it? You got it?

I'm like, yeah, no, thanks to you, motherfucker, you know? So we go, we meet up and we fucking, we're gonna, I'm gonna whack this stuff up. Split up. It's like, you know, right? 50-50, right? Right? Yeah, no. He had different, he was like he was his score.

He wanted to take the whole fucking thing. So we ended up, so he ends up arguing me, he's, we're beefing, and I'm like, yo, dude, you're not doing, this thing going the way,

you know, and remember I told you the oil story, the baby oil and the thing? He was there for that. He's seen me. He knows I'm dangerous. He knows like I'm fucking,

you know, but he's, so, so my, my, my, my, my,

my, fucking thinking like he's trying to blow me out of my shit. Long story's short, I end up killing him, like over the fucking, yeah, over this argument,

whatever. And I leave him there. And, and, so, in hindsight, I, I fucked up because later on

I would get like the paperwork, all the things and I didn't know this, but he was very into drug. He was like doing needles and stuff like that. He was like, it was so that behavior wasn't a gangster type. He's trying to rob somebody. That was a drug addict fucking trying to like get the, you know, but I didn't know. I wasn't

I suck it. It's like seeing if guys are on drugs or not whatever. And it was drug related behavior not, you know, I took it as a tough guy thing and it wasn't, it was a fucking drug thing. So anyway, I get back and four days freaking later, and a heat on me, you know, I got state police on me. So, like, this can't be, you know, this can't be the same thing.

Because I did this about, you know, I, you know, I did this by myself. Like, it was like, you know, in a hotel room, like, nobody there. Like, silent pistol, like no witnesses, right? So, sure enough, it was the fucking, it was that case, right? So they, they raid my house and they're looking for weapons. They don't indict me for this murder. So let me, for me, let me transfer here. So I got a friend of mine, friend of mine,

from the state named Mike DeMaco. And Mike is telling me, yo, we need a gun in the neighborhood. This is what we live in the Bronx. I'm like, I don't need guns in the neighborhood. I got two duffel bags full of guns in the city. You know, we don't need guns. You go, no, no, we got something in the neighborhood, right? Unbeknownst to me, Mike's a, um, uh, uh, guess.

Informant? And NYPD, confidential informant. Like, he don't, he's not, he's, like, he makes money tell him. You know what I mean? Like, he works for them, you know? And there was a bunch of signs that I missed. Like, one time he calls me, he goes. He goes, yo, yeah, these fucking cops came to my house.

And I'm in the shower, so I made him wait like 45 minutes. Well, I took a shower. He came out and he'll, yo, we keep an eye on you. And I'm like, all right. I'm missing all these stories. So he comes to me one day and he goes, hey, y'all want to kill my wife. I'm like, what? He goes, yeah, I want to kill my wife.

How are we going to do it? I'm like, jerk off. That's the mother of your kid. What are you fucking stupid? He's like, oh, yeah. You know, but I look back in hindsight, he was like, you know, trying to get me to, like, jump off sides. Anyway, so he wraps me up like a bow And he ends up, he gets me, you know,

locked up with the, with the, for this gun in the backyard. So when they raid the house, they don't have anything from the murder or anything like that, but they have the gun in my backyard. So in my, my, hit my experience, it's a misdemeanor that most they can give you a year in the state.

I'm like, whatever, dude, I don't care, you know, I'll call people up and have them waiting for me in the prison system. So I go to Rikers, I'm on, I'm in Rikers, and one day I go to court. And my lawyer's there. And he's like, yo, the Fed's here to get you. The Fed's here to get you.

He's all panicked, right? So I'm like, yo, Adam, calm down, dude. He's like, I said, relax. So I'm, no, you don't understand. You're going to be high exposure. I said, whatever it is, we'll face it. Like, I'm calm. Like, I don't, you know, I'm kind of interested because I never been to the Fed.

You know, I never experienced that. In the state, the Fed was always, like, glamorous. Like, you know, like, you know, Cub Fed and everything. And whenever you had something going on, you know, in the state, good. Oh, you got like the feds. That was the saying. Like, oh, you got to look at this guy.

I live like the feds. You know, we thought the feds was great. We had no idea. It was hell. But whatever. I don't find that out till later. So the feds come and get me. Now I go from a misdemeanor,

looking at tops a year in prison, to a mandatory minimum of 15 years, you know? For murder. No. No, no murder. I'm not charged with murder. Oh, these are just the feds picking up something else. Oh, gun.

So you remember Juma was talking. last time you see, June was talking about how they had, there was a project Exodus in Rochester, in the Bronx, it was called Trigger Act. So what happened was they were, the feds

started picking up state cases and they would pick up crack and guns, which they never dealt with before. So the feds prior to the 2000s would deal with like a highly sophisticated bunch of criminals. They had like, you know, they weren't dealing with animals, you know.

So, they started bringing all these state guys to the feds on Project Trigger Law. So because of my juvenile stuff, like when I was a kid, under 16, stuff like that, oh, 16, whatever. So if you get caught with a gun as a felon, it's a five-year mandatory minimum. If you get caught with a gun with a felon with a violent felony or a drug felony, it's a mandatory 10 years. And if you get caught with three, like a mixture of three chug charges or three violent felonies or a mixture of three, you get man to a minimum of 15 years.

It's called the ACCA, Armed Career Criminal Act, okay? 924C, 924C, 924E was the thing. I lose all my legal jargon the further I get away from prison. So now I'm looking at 15-year man-trim, I'm like, get the fuck out. I'm not taking 15 years for a, you know, a gun. It's not happening, you know, I'm going to trial. I'm going to fight this. So big, big names in the joint in the feds will tell me, oh, Roger, listen, this is the feds.

It's different. You've got to like, this guy's doing 30 years for bullets in the feds, you know. So I'm like, I don't care. I'm not, I'm not, it was on, I couldn't even wrap my brain around it, right? And so I'll get to, I'll get to the case in a minute. So my first, my, I, I come to the unit and there's a bunch of us from Rikers were in Brooklyn, was you in there? Yeah.

So, you know, was you in the old building or new building? There was MCC is what, the old one? No, MCC's Manhattan. Yeah. Was it MCC?

No, I was on MDC. I didn't know there was an old building. So in MDC, Brooklyn, there's new building. That's all nice, the new, whatever, and there's the old building.

So they put us in the old building. I must have been the new building. Yeah. A lot of people are. I get screwed and I got sent to the old building. But anyway,

so I'm in the old building and we're in there, we're just like, we can't believe this, like, you know, like we're not used to what we're experiencing, right? Because everybody's telling us, oh, don't talk about your case, everybody's telling them.

We're not dealing with open rats, where people are outly open telling them. Like, you know, a rat keeps it to himself, he hides. Like, he always sits there and tell you, you know, whatever. Out in MDC, these guys are openly, you know, like, they're on TV, they go, that's my work right there. I buried that motherfucker. We're like, holy shit, right?

So, matter of fact, when the Spanish cop comes in on a weekend, And he's like, everybody's standing up, stand up, count. Oh, so then you weren't in the old building. So in an old building, it's 60 beds, bunk beds, in a dormitory area. So you have 120 guys in an open area, you know, and they have like these like showers over here. And I got a little cooking spot and they got a little, you know, where they serve your food and everything. And I have a wreck deck outside, you know, it's like like in the new building.

Yeah, it was like the concrete garage looking thing. Right. But so in the old building, it's like, so you have these bunk beds. So this cop comes like running. And he's like, you, everybody's standing up for the camp. So I'm like, shut the fuck up, you know. He's like, who said that? And guys in the back were like, y'all said, fuck you.

He'd run to the back, running back, you know. And finally, like, we got tired of his shit. So the guy, I was in the front. The guys in the back jumped up and they, they started throwing bars of soap out. Boop, light him up, right? So he runs in his office, slams the door, calls for backup. And they came in and they went in his office. And they started, they're screaming at him in his face.

And they were telling him, like, don't fuck with these guys. These guys ain't the fucking regular guys. he's like, you know, he's like, you know, he's like a little, you know, a little kid, docile, right? We got treated with kid gloves because we weren't broken yet. We weren't like, you know, we weren't assimilated. We didn't know anything about the feds. So you know what recall means?

Like, you're locking. So the first day, we're all sitting at playing cards. And this black lady goes, see, O'Corp correction officer. She's like, recall, you know? So we're like, this, right? She's like, I said recall. So we look, we look at each other. We ignore.

So she flips out. She's like, I said, Raquel. I'm like, yo, lady, lady, calm down. Look at me. What are you saying? She's like, recall means lock in. I said, we don't know that. Just tell us to lock in.

We all got up and we locked in. But we don't know the terminology. We don't know what's going on. Like, you know, we're new to the federal system, you know? So we're in there. So you know, like, you ever heard about how the Dominicans are in the feds? Yeah. Okay.

So we're dealing with that. So they're like half the unit is Dominicans. And they're just, they're doing what they do. right and they just everybody's getting fed up with them fed up with them fed up with them and it's like building it's building so one day i get they the the dominicans were talking about checking in this israeli-d-fmobile a fucking idf member right i said what's going on they said oh he's got to go he's got he's got to go i said you're going he's not i'm telling the head the midding guy said yo he's not getting checked in you know so he got i said i said you want to do this in the back he goes let's go

do in the back so we run to the back of you to fight so i run to the back right and before i get to go, before I get back there to fight, I hear like a, you know, like a thing. So I run out to the front of the unit, and it was like, Braveheart, dude. So the brothers, the blacks were having, they were tired of their shit. And they chose my fight as an excuse to pop off. And we just end up, we end up fighting this big, frigging melee big thing where we beat the fucking, we beat these guys that, like, bloodied them up, crashed them out, you know, sent them on their way, like the hospital.

Cops were like lined up outside. They wouldn't even come in the unit. It was like a riot. It was like a riot. It's a fight between people, not against cops. But it was uncontrollable for them. Why would you stick up for the Israeli guy? He's a friend of mine. Oh, okay. So he wasn't just like running with you or anything. It was just.

He's a friend. Okay. Somebody I knew, whatever. I'm, uh, yeah, if I'm your friend, I'm your friend for life. I don't like, you know, like I'm not going to, I'll never, you can't, you can't, you can't, if I'm your friend, you can't get into a problem without me getting to a problem. That's like, it just doesn't happen. Like, you know, I don't know if I should have made that clear earlier. you know but um anyway so we end up we end up going so they took uh 60 of us out 6 they lock 60 guys up and you know moved them off the unit kept 60 on the unit right so now we're being so they're kind of like nervous about us like you know like they're leaving us alone with we're

like wild like indians so i'm making wine and not to make wine right i'm sitting there make i'm getting everybody drunk freaking whatever so one night i get i have everybody lit the fuck up and Do you remember the blackout of 2000, I think it was like the end of 2004, 2004, 2005? No, but I've heard of it. All right, it gets blacked out in New York. So we get a blackout, right? So now we're all drunk. So we're running around like maniacs in this unit.

And we grab this one kid, we snatched him up and we like tie him to the beds in the back, you know, like, you know, accident and tied him up, you know, and put a gag in his mouth. And we just, we're young. We're idiots, right? So we're running around. They come in for the count. And it's dark. So they got flashlights. They're like, stand and count.

So they go, yo, we still got. Smitty back in the back. I'm like, fuck, I forgot about him, right? So the lieutenant's like, like, she's going through the countering out. And I hear in the back, she's got screaming. She goes, oh, my God, they got a guy tied up back here. Right?

So they untie them and they go, who did this? He goes, I don't know. They had masks on, right? She's like, I fucking hate you guys. I fucking hate you. And she leaves, you know. So we got like a name for ourselves. That was Six North.

So when anybody went to court and you call Six North, everybody look at us, you know, because we had like a name for being, you know, crazy Wild Indians. And that was my interesting. introduction to the feds, the federal system. I ended up, I ended up going, I got a, I get, oh, so now I'm fighting my case, right? I'm fighting this case, fighting the gun case, fighting the gun case.

It becomes apparent to me that I'm going to have to take this 15 years. What I did was, I look at a bunch of cases, and what made me cop out was a case I found in Tennessee. It was a guy, he had done stuff in the 70s, and he had a record. And he had, he went 10 years or 20 years, a felony, without any kind of like charge. And he applied for and got a liquor license, right? And he opened up a poolhole beer place. And he was making a lot of money. And because he was taking so much money from the poolhole to the bank,

he went and purchased a gun, legitimately. So he thought that if he could get a liquor license, you know, that he could buy a gun too. It would be legal. Agents saw a felon in possession, and they locked them up. And the judge said, I don't think this is what the law was made for, you know, in your case, but the law says I have to give you 15 years, and they gave him 15-year man to a minimum. So I said, Jesus Christ, I'm a career criminal. Like, you know, like, they're going to

crush me. And sure enough, I go to cop out for the 15 years and for the gun, by the way, just for a gun, not the murder yet. So I go for, for the, for the, for the, for the cop out, and I had Michael Mukasey was my judge. Michael McKayze is a big, big name in the feds. He actually became the attorney general a couple years later. And, uh, Michael McKeysie. Michael McCasey was the guy who did he, he handled the Wall Street terrorist stuff. They called him the waterboarding judge because he wouldn't, he wouldn't rule on the legality, illegality of waterboarding, whatever. So he's my judge and he's really, really good, like a real, real smart man.

And he ended up, he, when I copped out to the 15, he gave me, he goes, all right, I'm giving you, uh, 217 months or something like that, right? I'm looking out to count in my head, like, what the fuck is, you know? It was 17, 17 years I got, whatever. you know, whatever months, 200, whatever 17 years comes out to in months. So I get that. He gives me two years over, you know, the, I was supposed to get, you know. So I ended up going to the feds.

They sent me to a school kill. You ever heard of that? Yeah. Yeah. So I go to school kill. And a bunch of people there I know. And when I get off the bus, this pertains to the story, this guy, Kevin, he's one of the Westies. You heard of the Irish mob?

I've heard of the Irish mob. I didn't hear you hear the Westies. Westies is the Irish mom. Okay. Yeah. So anyway, Kevin goes to me, he's like, listen, he goes, I take these classes, the psychology classes. He goes, they can't do nothing for us now.

They're not doing nothing for nobody. But you never know down the road, so you should take these classes. I'm like, I'm, Kevin, whatever, you know, I'll do it, you know, I'm in your hands. So I started taking these classes where I met the guy, Dr. Walters. I sent you that chapter of that book I'm in, like, well, Letitia, probably got it. But I'm in a couple. So this guy's, Dr. Walters was in the. military. He works for the BOP. He wrote the drug program for the BOP. He wrote like a hundred and three

different books and articles. He's like a pretty big name. So he gave these classes in prison. It's called criminal lifestyle. Okay. And I started taking him. And they changed my life. It like transformed me. Like, like, it's using your brain as opposed to just, you know, being in a lifestyle. You start to, he focuses on the fact that it's not like the drugs. you do or the crimes you do or the gambling you do, it's the lifestyle. You get addicted to that lifestyle. Not so much the, we keep thinking like, oh, we're addicted to drugs or we're addicted to alcohol or we're addicted to gambling. It's you're addicted to the lifestyle. You know, that's your lifestyle. You like to do that. And until you change your lifestyle, you're not going to

change your life. You can sit to say, oh, I'm not going to do drugs again. Okay, that's fine. But if you continue on that same lifestyle, you enter that same path, you're going to eventually go back to drugs. You know, here's the antithesis to the A&NA model. which is a disease model saying you're going to have you're sick for the rest of your life his is like he doesn't believe in that he doesn't believe you know whatever so I took criminal lifestyle advanced criminal lifestyles France gambling you know all these different things I took it I took parenting I took all these different classes right I said pages and pages over the years um and how old are you when you got locked up in the feds in the feds I was 30 and do you have

kids yet or no I have one son my son I was married and I have a son okay yeah I should have probably talked about that but I try to keep my personal family out of it. But yeah, my friends always told me, oh, this time you did, Roger. How'd you have time to put a family together? That's what I'm thinking. Everybody, everybody says that.

But it was when I got out in 2005, not when I got out in 2000, no, when I got out in 95. And so, all right, I could. No, just continue on with the story. Anyway, so, yeah, when I shot the guy in front of the cafe, that's when I had gotten my wife pregnant. Okay.

So anyway, I'm in the feds and I'm learning the difference between state and the feds. It's a different world, you know, whatever. It's interesting because it's more than the state. So in the state, you know, it's like whites against blacks and Spanish, it'll be separate, right? In the feds, it's cars, you know that. Yeah. Connecticut cars, this car, it's that car, whatever. By your state.

You're right, you're a state or religion. You know, if you're a Muslim car. whatnot. So I'm in what's called the New York organized crime car, right? And again, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, uh, Albanians, that's Italian, that's, that's Greeks, you know, and to answer your original question, yes, they all get along, everybody. Um, as a matter of fact, uh, there's some famous stuff in newspapers where guys were beefing, you know, war, like physical beefing over territory. And they like lived together. They were lived in, they were same cellies, you know? That's like motorcycle clubs.

100%. Exactly. Right, right, right, right. You sit there and you meet these hell's angels and they're hanging out with the frigging pagans and whatnot. Yeah, in prison. They sit at the same table as everything. Everything, right.

Same thing. All that goes out the window in jail. So, and then that leads me, so that's an interesting point too because one day I'm in the hole and I'm with the Mexicans. So they have the serenios and the norreños and they're living together in the hole.

So when we get out, I'm like, where's your friend? He goes, oh, he can't come to this yard. I'm like, why not? It was Noreno can't walk this shot. I'm like, yeah, but you guys live together. Yeah, it's in the box. It's different.

And I'm like, that makes no sense to me. I said, so I never understood like this, this separation like that. It was always weird. But anyway, so I'm in the feds. I'm in, I'm doing my time, you know, learning the thing. And in 2008, they called me to the visit room. So it's a Wednesday. And I'm like, there's no visits on Wednesday.

So I'm thinking it's a urine. I walk in there, I see the cop. But I'm going, I said, urine, he went. I went, I went, I said, fuck. So I have my watch on. I hit the chronograph. I want, you know, show like how fucking long I've been here, you know. I want nobody thinking I'm a ratting like that, you know.

So I walk in there and there's the two New York homicide guys and a FBI agent, a guy named Michael Breslin, who happened to be my friend's case agent. But anyway, so they put a picture of the victim and they're like, you know, And so you know what 302 is? Yeah, the report. Yeah. So my 302 is a half page. They said, we showed Mr. Lietras, picture the victim.

Mr. Liches looked at the picture and said, and we said, and we then said that Mr. Lichers, we feel you have information we're interested in. Would you be willing to cooperate? Mr. Lueger said, gentlemen, I'm sorry you made a trip for no reason, but I'm represented by counsel. We then terminated the visit. So what you do is like whenever you have, give it the FBI, would I just say, I'm represented by counsel.

They have to stop, you know, the visiting. So let me stop this story. Let me back up. So in the beginning in Brooklyn, when I'm fighting this case, they wanted me to flip. They went like five times they came to me. They approached my lawyer for me to flip like five times. Four times they had my lawyer, asked me, do I want to cooperate? And the fifth time, they took my lawyer away from me and gave me another lawyer because

they thought my lawyer was the one keeping me standing up. You know what I'm saying? Because my lawyer was like... Like an organized crime lawyer? Yeah. And she thought they were like protecting whatever. which I was offended, by the way. But anyway, I need the handle that.

So I told the new cop, the new cop, the new lawyer, I'm like, I said, tell the U.S. attorney. I said, I don't know nothing. And even though I did, I wouldn't tell him. I said, he can give me a thousand years or the death penalty. You know, I'm not telling him nothing. You know, and meanwhile, they end up giving me, they did put the death penalty on me later on, but I'll get to that in a minute. So I'm in the visit room. They leave.

And I come out of the, out of the visit room. And my friends, like, there's like five or six of my friends there. So I'm thinking, oh, wow, my friends, like, they're nervous, like, you know, worried about me, right? So they come running down and me like, yo, what's this murder? I'm like, yeah. So they said, how long was it, you know, you committed the murder? I said five years ago, right? And they go, and they're all like this.

They're all with their eyes up in the head. I break out laughing. I'm like, they're not worried about me. They're worried about their fucking cases. Like, you know, they're, you know, because in, you don't know, I don't know if you know this in the feds. After five years, the feds can indict you. Even for murder. Murder?

There is no. There is no. there is no statute of limitations for murder but the feds can't come after you after five years

so it'll be a state you know what I'm saying but it can't be it won't be after five years the feds can't pick it up unless they do a RICO thing and then they can go back

or they have a little tricks don't get me wrong but for straightforward cases no once you get past five years you know you're you're dead so anyway I get

so now they come and pick me up I get it's a death penalty case they make it they they they put like you know like like a like Like, they're not, they haven't passed it as a death penalty.

They're seeking the death penalty, you know? I should have showed you that on the thing, too. So my jail don't care because they know me, like everybody knows me, whatever. But when I get transferred, every jail I went to in transit, I'm locked, I'm in the hole, I'm in shoe, I'm going, I'm going box to box, shoe to shoe. And I got to fight this case. So I end up, I end up getting bounced all the way up to Raybrook and then into Vermont. So what they did was because of the robbery took place in Vermont.

They used Vermont as the court thing because I guess they figured they would have higher optics up there because nobody, you know, had a death on the case up there before. So I'm like the big fish in a little pond up there. And thank God, this animal named Donald Fell, he raped and killed his niece. he got the death penalty and I just took all the focus off of me. Like, they all were focus on this guy, you know. And so I got, I ended up getting offered a 15 years for that, for the whole, for that thing to run consecutive, right? So they, so they gave me less time for the murder than I did for the gun.

And you took that deal, I'm guessing. Yeah, I got, it's all, I actually called my wife up. But I'm like, hey, listen, they're offering me 32 years altogether. Whatever you tell me to do, I'm going to do, you know? So she's like, all right, um, I think you should take it, you know, this way, you know, one day you'll get out. You can have a couple of coffee with your son. And I'm thinking, yeah, it doesn't sound like you're going to stick around for this. You know, it didn't say I was waiting for like, oh, I'll wait for you or nothing.

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You know, the handwrite was on the wall. She couldn't do 32 years ago. I don't expect anybody to do that either. What did you do with the body? You just left that at the hotel? Yeah. You didn't take care of to try to clean it up or anything? No, I didn't leave any evidence.

I took the bed sheets. I took all the stuff. I took everything. So I guess everyone's probably wondering right now, how did they find you? How did they connect it? Oh, that's great. I like to hear it. So now I just told you that.

How many witnesses do you think? had in that case when they went well I was going to go to trial I was going to court how many witnesses do you think I had it's got to be someone like at the hotel or something give me a number of how many witnesses do you think they you they were going to bring to my trial I'm thinking one or two right sounds good right go up a little higher than that five 80 how'd they have 80 witnesses they had fucking 80 witnesses five years later this is what this is what the government does they didn't have a they didn't have a case it was nothing they took you and they they grabbed they had like um correctional officers from the past they had um oh

people down the blog, people in this restaurant. So what they do is they have to create a case out of nothing. So this leads us to the, the feds have a 97% convection rate. You know that, right? Yeah. Okay. You gamble, correct? Yeah.

What if you went into a casino that had a 97% win rate? You wouldn't play it. Why? Because it's so high? No. I mean, the odds are. But also? You know it's crooked.

Oh, yeah. There's no way they have a 97% conviction rate. There's no way without being crooked. They're crooked. Well, it's because of the plea deals, though. That's why their conviction rates are. But also, the plea deals only because of what they do to you. They sit there and they manufacture evidence.

They, they man, they, they, they, they, they threaten you. They go after your families. Everything. I, that's what they meant by when they said that the state is physical and the feds are mental. So, all right, I'm in the, I'm in the hole. I hate to jump around this. I'm in a hole in the fed, in, in, in D.C. Brooklyn. I get into a fight.

I'm in the hole. And I'm locked up by myself. And the guy next to me starts kicking his door. Boom, boom, boom. Right? So my eyes popped out of my head. I said, oh, they're going to beat the shit of this guy. Because I'm used to the state, right?

So the cop comes down and goes, what are you kidding your door for? He's like, I didn't get a milk at lunch. I'm like, oh, my God, they're going to kill this guy. They're going to kill him and they're going to ask me questions. You know what I'm saying? I'm in the state. This guy would have been massacre. Right?

And the cop goes, oh, hey, take it easy. I'll get your milk and walks away. I'm like, what the fuck just happened? So I'm asking people. I'm like, yo, what's going on in the feds here? You know what I'm like? So this guy was old. guy's been in the feds. He's the one I actually talked me into

cop and out. He's like, Roger, listen, because the fed's got something for you. He's like, you don't realize it right now. They don't beat you up. They don't, they have something for you. They go after your family. They go after, they'll bounce you all over the place. They sent you to Oklahoma, Kansas, right? I went all the way to Wisconsin. Wisconsin. Like, this is what they do to you. They have these, these

things in place to break you. They said they're in, they didn't break guys. And they don't even need them. Guys were getting flipped. I was calling, I called Brooklyn, M.D.C. IHop. International Spankeks. They were flipping guys like left and right. Guys will lift the right.

Guys will come in like gangsters. They were like this. They would go, oh, fuck this. No, no. I mean, look what they just did in that gambling case. Yeah. They bring them to Brooklyn and then, you know. That's it.

They're over. You know? I had a guy I was walking with every day. This guy, Jimmy. I used to pace with him, right? So, and I get one day, he's like this. He's like crying, right? I'm like, you're Jimmy.

I'm thinking something happened in his family. Like, what's wrong, man? He's like, my lawyer says, I'm looking at 24 months. I'm like, Jimmy, you want to walk with me every day? I'm looking at fucking 15 years for a gun, you know? I don't, don't, whatever. Anyway, one day he gets off the phone, he hangs up the phone, right? And he's like, he's like, yeah, yeah.

I'm like, what's up, Jimmy? He goes, I just beat my case. I beat my case on the phone. He's like, he freezes, right? He goes, oh, my lawyer went to school with the U.S. attorney. I'm like, get the fuck out of it. You know, like these guys, everybody's just like making deals. They're all flipping these guys.

Nobody stands up. So how do they connect you the murder, though? Even witnesses aside, they must add some type of evidence to even find you. Yeah, he had told people, like, you're all going to happen to me, Roger. So it was like. But it took five years to catch up to you then? Five years for them to build a case. Okay.

You know, no, I told you four days. They were after me. But it took them five years to build that case. That built the 80 witness case. Like, you know, I just told you about it. So they were on your trail for five years, but they didn't actually press you till the five years. 2008. Okay.

Yeah. So it wasn't like a cold case and they were struggling to find. someone and then they when they when they hit the newspaper whatever you know case finally solved that they're like guys have been onto me since that they happened okay you know what I'm saying like it's it's all smoking mirrors it's all like a dog and pony show now do you think they gave you less time for murder because he was in the life too and he was committing a crime with you in the act and they knew all those facts 100 so like like um I had friends of mine in the feds that were like one guy got 19 years for five murders uh another guy got like 15 years for three murders in the feds if you're like

as long as you like you kill other gangers other criminals like they don't care. And I really don't. It's like it's pretty cold-blooded, you know, but, you know, if you do anything to a civilian, you know, it's a whole different story. Unless it's manslaughter and they give you three years for killing a kid, drunk driving. Yeah, but I've seen guys get a lot more than that, you know, for the manslaughter thing and not just not a kid, like adults. Like if they drunk driving, I've seen guys get seven, 10 years for that, like, you know. But even still, that's kind of low for taking an innocent life. No, it's, it's, yeah, but it's, it's a double tragedy, dude. It really is. You know what I mean? It's like both sides. I was with, uh, I was with, uh,

I was with a bunch of guys in jail that were like civilians that were like citizens. I call them my noble grapes. Why noble grapes? You're familiar with wines, like Marlowe, Chardonnay. So if you sit there and you have a chardonnay in France, it's a chardonnay, right? But if you plant that grape in Italy, it's still a chardonnay. You plant it in California. It's a chardonnay.

You plant it in, you know, Washington. It retains its nobility. It's called noble grapes. Those are the grapes you can plant them anywhere. and they're going to retain their characteristics. So I meant a few civilians that were like, they were innocent people. So there was a guy, the Trump administration locked up. He was a banker from Turkey.

I'm Greek. I don't know if I told you that. So he's Turkish, and Greeks and Turks are mortal enemies, right? I used to joke all the time to the other Greeks. I was like, yo, if they have a big Turkish guy in here, we're checking him in, you know, like that kind of thing. And so anyway, the first time we get a Turkish guy, he's a banker, international banker. His name's Harkon Etilla. You could look it up.

And what happened was he was kind of like me. He was a banker in the thing. And his bank came to him and said, we need to get money out of Iran, but they froze all our assets. How do we do it? So he figured out a way to sit there and get their money legit, you know, out of Iran based upon,

even though America puts sanctions on Iran, Iran. And they locked them up. They got him in America. When he came to America for a bank meeting, they put him in the feds. And he ended up getting 30 months, you know. So, yeah. I used to walk the yard with him and talk to him every day.

He was a real good guy, very, very good guy. And he was like, I don't know what I'm going to do. I never had a felony before. I don't know if I can go back in the banking industry. I said, relax. Everything's going to be okay. You're going to be fine when you go back. And sure enough, when he went back, Erdogan, the president of Turkey,

made him the CEO of the Turkish Stock Exchange. He became like, he was like famous overnight. He was like, I go to restaurants. I go to, nobody takes my checks. Like, you know, yeah, he was. He wrote. a book called The Televerse America. And if you give it, I'll show, I'll show it the other thing, but I'm in the book. He put punches of me in the book, me and him all in the book, and he's

his articles in there. He's like, he's like, it's funny because I'm in America and it's a Greek guy that took me in. Because I made him part of my world. I took him with us. I made him, you know, he stayed with me every day. And I took him, you know, so he had a comfortable bid. I don't want to have a harsh bid, you know. And then I was locked up with one of those, the Blackwater guys, the mercenaries. Yeah. There was a guy, so the bunch of this crew had a firefight in Iraq, okay? And the Obama administration gave them all 30 years here.

They locked them up. These guys were like soldiers and they put them in the feds. They were like not criminals. Like they had a firefight in a war, in a war and the Obama administration locked them up. And they just carried themselves like very nobly. They just, they did. It's like I always admire that. admire like that these people that like civilians you know never committed a crime and like they're just

they retain their their honor you know now do you think if you got a longer sentence when you're a kid for those robberies you would have you know not gone down the same path i think if i didn't know anybody in the in the adolescent unit and i got the shippie out of me i probably would have went down a different path but i was accepted and it became like you know part of my lifestyle like you know like you know like it was it sets you apart you're you know you're you're different we all want to be different. Nobody wants to be the same. Everybody wants to be more than what they are. Now, where were your parents in all of this? My father, when I got pinched at the first time, he was like, you got yourself into trouble,

get yourself out of trouble. And I was like pretty much on my own, you know, like that. And my mother, she's like, she's not a, you know, a very strong person to be able to, you know, take care. I correspond. They come to visit me, this, that. The other thing, I stayed in contact with them. But they weren't helpful as far as my case went at all, you know. So now the feds, how long do you do there before they switch you to the state? What do you mean? You said you got it consecutively, right? So don't think you go to state town?

No, no, no, no. For the murder charge? No, so they did. Both charge were. So the 15 years and the 17 years were run together as a consecutive bit. I did, I got 32 years for that case. Yeah. Okay.

Oh, but they let you stay in the feds for that whole time? Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I'm in the feds. Well, hold on now. So now I'm doing 32 years. my release date, I'll show you the paperwork, my release date is 2035, okay?

And what happened was, so like 2015, I'm walking a yard and somebody goes, hey, Rod, you got nothing coming, no appeal? I'm like, I got nothing coming, dude. You know, I'm done. I did all my appeals. I'm dead. I'm done my time. I'm very relaxed.

You know, I'm settled in, you know, people that find out, they go, they go, yo, yo, I can't believe you got all this time. Like, you're doing. Like, you're so calm. You're so relaxed. You know, I just accept my fate, you know? My father told me when I was a kid. He's like, always accept the consequences of your actions.

So, you know, it makes that easier when you accept the consequences of your options. So, uh, 2015, I go to Lowell Library. There's a black guy named E. He's a guy you might want to have on your show. He's an amazing story. Another kid, they locked up 19 years old. Did a lot of time. He's doing life.

And so me and E over the years, we had a relationship. He was a very, very, really, really good law library guy. He got so many people out of jail. it was ridiculous. Like he would do their peer work. He couldn't get himself out, but he can get everybody else out. So every couple years, I would go in and I say,

E, I want to put it appeal in. And he'd be like, what's your issues? And I'm like, I don't like the pillows here. He's like, all right, I'll put it up thing in. You know, I'll go in there. I'm like, oh, E, put an appealing for me. He's like, what's your issues? I just want to be here no more.

He's like, all right, I'll put it appeal in. We used to joke over the years. We break, break balls. So in 2015, I walked into the little library and E goes, your Raj. Something's coming down the pipeline. he goes, you're going to get instant release. I'm like, yay, instant release?

And he's like, I'm not kidding. I'm dead serious. You're getting instant release. So it was, U.S. First Johnson. Do you ever hear about that? I think so. People were talking about it when I was there. Right.

So U.S. Johnson changed. What they found was what they did to me for the gun. Give me the 17 years for the gun was unconstitutional. So now I have access back to the court. So I don't have instant or grounds for instant release automatically. it's up to the judge's discretion. Okay, so here comes when I got off the bus in 2005 and they put me in those classes,

this is where this comes in. So now I go before Judge Fiala. Fiala, Fiala, Fiala. Fiala, Fiala. Fiala. And she can sit there, and if I'm like doing drugs my whole bit and fucking up and not doing anything positive, whatever,

she could just say, all right, and just give me time served, as in, not time served, keep it as 17 years. You can sentence me to the 17 years. It's up to her. They put it up to the judge's discretion whether or not to uphold the sentence

that I was originally given. Does that make sense to you? Okay. So I don't really realize this until I get to court. And the fact for me, I could have got, she could have just got rid of the 17 years.

I would have walked home right there in 2016. I would have went home, you know? So because of the murder, she goes like this. She goes, what I'm going? Oh, so she's just there. She's going to my hit work

and she smiles in court. She's like, smiles. She goes, I'm in a unique position here. She goes, I get to see what a guy does after I sentence him, but before I sentence him. So she has pages and pages of the things, classes that I took that no one could imagine Johnson was going to happen. So that was like, it gave to the legitimacy of the me changing my life around, me trying to make a better person on myself, me taking these classes, me trying to be, you know, I'm not going home until I'm 60, 70 years old, you understand, but I'm still trying to become better. Right. And

So she took that in consideration. And because of the murder, she was like, listen, I'm not going to release you right now. What I'm going to do is I'm going to just, so I haven't done to do another five years. So I was supposed to get out in 2021, the end of 2021. And I got out halfway house in the end of 2020. You know what I'm saying? They gave me a year halfway house. And that was because I helped the guy out in prison.

So if you never had the murder, you would have got out right away in 2015? 16. 2016. Yeah, all right out right there. Wow. So you at least, you knew what your new end date would be in 2016. Like, you knew that you had five years left. Yeah.

So how did you feel those years? So what I did was, so I've never, ever, ever, I've never gave any interest in, like, economics and businesses and whatnot and whatever. I was always in their life. I was like, this is what I was born into. This is what I was, you know? So when I went back, I went to this, there was a cop there, CEO, and his name was Brown. He was in charge of the culinary arts school.

And he actually worked in a five-star run. restaurants, five diamond hotels, just a miracle that he ended up in the BOP. He was a really, really talented guy. And he cared about the students. Like, he wanted this, like, his fantasy was like, somebody changed a life friend, go home and open a restaurant. You know what I'm saying? And I might have been that fantasy, but you don't make a lot of money in the restaurant

business. So, but anyway. So I go to him and I'm like, hey, Brown, listen, I need you to make me a chef. I need a job when I get out, you know? So he's like, I don't know if I can make you a chef, but I'll do my best. So I became, like, his right-hand man. And he trained me how to be, you know, run a restaurant, taught me how to balance a checkbook. you know, get in, you know, do my finances, how to invest.

He was very proactive with, with students, you know, he was a good man. And, uh, that was it. And I, uh, I finished up my bit. And, uh, they sent me to, they sent me to Brooklyn, um, halfway house at the end of 2020. And, um, I walked out into COVID and all the, the, the, the new world. Like, it was like, I never, this, the stuff that I walked out until I never experienced, you know, the they them thing I had like learn that you know so I worked I told you they gave me a job in the

movie business you know and making um my friend spider he pulled me in with them 52 so that's uh it's the movie business you know so you have these like on one side you got all these like blue collar construction workers and then on the other side you got these like you know artsy you know due to you know do the painting everything you know people so I met my first you know they them people you know I had to like learn that and become you know I made friends with a bunch of them You know, they still, they're still in contact with me, you know. But I was in, I was in, I was in an affid construction. I'm in a, I'm in a place called Hanlon right now.

And it's 7.31 is a union. And everybody's like, all the people I work with, all the, like, you know, the, the bosses and stuff, they, they love me because, like, I'm turning my life around. I'm, you know, I work every day. So that's why I got, I got off, so I get out, I get out, I get out of a halfway house. I get off, I get out of a halfway house. I get into parole. And my parole.

is like, you know, I'm working with that should come in my job. I'm dirty, filthy. You know, I didn't, I didn't like, I literally, you know, changed my life for it. I said, I just went to work, got a house, you know, have my relationship with my son, blah, blah, blah, blah, met a new girl, you know, moved on to bigger and better things. How did you, how did you get rid of that, you know, quench or for thirst of adrenaline? Uh, it's, it's, it's, so I'll back up a little bit. I'll back up a little bit. A few older gangses died in jail in the place I was at. And I went to the funeral inside.

And I'm like, I just looked at it. I said, I'm not dying in prison, you know. I'm not, like, I don't want to die in jail, you know. So I made a decision like, all right, I'm not going to, I'm not coming back here again, you know. I stood up, I ain't a rat, you know, I'm not going to ever, you know, I'll never, I'll never, I don't break under pressure. But I just don't put myself in a position where, you know, I have to. You understand? Where I would, you know, be like that, you know.

Because if, if, like, you're my friend and we get caught up in a case that has nothing, you know, nothing to do with me, you know, and whatever, I'm going back to jail for you. I'm going to do that. It's just the way it is. I can't be not what I am. So I stay away from all my friends. I stay away from, like, you know, I do have, I'd say 90% of my friends are from schoolkill or whatever, but the people that I deal with are, they're, they're. business owners, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they've, they're all model citizens now, you know what I'm saying? So do you think other people in your world have kind of

seen, uh, the same writing on the wall and, and the times have changed? A lot of them, yeah, of course. Yeah, a lot of people, you know, like, I'm, uh, I just told you my friend Teddy, he's like, he got out, did his thing, he's, and you start a coffee company, uh, I got a, uh, I got a, there's, I can say you got a bunch of guys your way that this did that change the lives around, you know, I got a friend of mine of a mom, kind of roofing company, uh, all these You guys are successful businessman. You know, my friend got plumbing companies. Everybody works.

I got, I work union, but I have like a business. I got an ATM machine business. I got a vendor machine business. I do, like, different things. Me and Juma right now, we're starting, he went to Baltimore a few weeks ago. And one of our friends was doing in, inmate reintegration programs. So we're looking to do that in New Jersey right now. Like, we're looking to start that.

We're always running, you know, everybody's putting businesses together and always trying to, like, better themselves. So how old are you now today? 154. How many years of your life did you spend incarcerated? Probably about 30. Wow. Yeah.

How does that make you feel when you think about it? I try not to think about it. But, yeah, I got more than half my life in prison. I'm trying to, like, you know, change it around a little bit. But there's going to come a point where you'll have more time, you know, outside of prison than in prison. Yeah, I'm getting there. I'm working on it. What do you think you missed out the most on?

So, there's different disciplines in the criminal world. the one I admired the most was the Russian, the Russian mob. And what they do is they don't have any possessions. They don't have wives, families. They don't have children. They don't have houses, cars. They are dedicated to their lives. You ever heard of Vovovovovina Viva Zalconi?

He's from the thing of them all this, no? So they're like the Jedi's of frigging the crime world. Like, you know, they're really devoted. So the thing I, so I think you shouldn't, if you're involved in crime and whatever, you shouldn't have a family, you shouldn't do that, you know? And that's the one thing I missed out. I didn't get to raise my kid, you know. I didn't sit there and see him grow up.

I didn't, you know, he was, thank God he had a good, good family. You know, I have a good support system with the family. And they raised him right and did everything. But I missed all that. I didn't get to do that. And I would get aggravated because I would, you know, I had kids around me in jail and I would teach him, you know, like things.

I'd teach him how to, you know, conduct themselves and stuff like that. And I'm thinking, like, I'm wasting all this on these guys. I should be teaching my kid like these lessons and stuff like that. So I feel like I missed out of my child. How's your relationship with him now? Great. I actually got him. He's in the same business with the movies.

He loves it. He's actually a shooting grip. He's like on, like on, you know, shooting movies, you know, where I build the sets type of thing. What would you tell your 16-year-old self before you route that store if you could sit across from him today? Yeah, don't do that. Yeah.

It's not going to work out like you think of this. But I understand that we didn't have any illusions back then either. Like, I remember me and my friend Pat, like, whenever we did something, we would look at each other like, hey, if we get caught, I hope they put us in the same cell. You know, like, we knew the possibility existed that we were going to get caught. We weren't disillusioned like that. You know, we weren't like living at Disneyland. Do you look at, like, when you see some of these crazy cases that might be similar to yours come up on the news? Do you, what do you think about them?

I don't really don't think, I don't watch the news, all right? But I'll tell you this, though. I'll answer you a question with other thing. I watched your show a lot all the time. And I actually, I didn't, I was going to come on your show because there's so many guests that you had that kind of mirrored the stuff that I had. They said, but I was like, I said, what am I going to? I got them to bring to the table to the table. You know, I really don't.

I don't think I have anything to bring to the table new, you know. So I don't know if that, if that answers your question. Well, I think the, the, you could tell the same story in multiple ways in the sense where you're going to hear a lot of the same stuff across different guests, but you're your own person and you're your own story. and then you're another individual that changes life around. Yeah. You know, so I think that's the benefit of it. All right. Like I said, I just, I remember it was a, it was a couple of, a couple of your guys.

I was like, wow, I said, he pretty much said everything I wanted to say. Like, you know, I'll. I wonder if you ran into John Moore at all, too. Who? John Moore. He did like 30-something years in the New York system. No, I don't think so. Big guy with the beard that I had on a couple times.

No. I would have. I actually was looking for like guys. One of your guys, my friends told me, yo, this guy went on before, whatever. So I got to find out who it is because one of my Boston friends told me, you know, like that you had one of one school kill guy.

Was it Johnny Bart at all? I know Johnny. I know who Johnny. I know Johnny Bart's co-defendants. Okay. You probably ran into him in the feds, right? No, I ran into his co-defendants. Okay.

Yeah. Johnny Bart was with my friends and other joints. He's a great dude. Everyone loves him. Yeah. He's doing so. well now too. Yeah, sadly enough, his co-defendant got screwed.

He ended up when he did all, he finished his Fed time. Ohio picked him up. Yeah, Ohio. And he's like doing life over there now. Oh, wow. Yeah, and we didn't see that coming. But yeah. Well, Roger, I appreciate you coming out on the show today.

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, you did great. Thank you, man. I really enjoyed this episode and the audience will too. I like meeting your father, too. He's a good dude. He's an OG. Yeah, I put a, put a,

face to the story with him with that thing. It was cool. Yeah. I appreciate you, man. All right, brother. Awesome.