Locked In with Ian Bick - I Gave Birth in Federal Prison — Here's What Nobody Tells You About That Experience | Tiffany Vulcain

Episode Date: August 23, 2026

Tiffany Vulcain grew up neglected by her parents, cycled through group homes and juvenile detention, spent her teenage years around gang life, and hit the streets on her own after turning 18 before a credit card scheme and the wrong group of people produced a five year federal prison sentence — and had to give birth in one of the most isolating and most institutionally indifferent environments available. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, she shares what a childhood defined by neglect, group homes, and juvenile detention really produced before the streets found her, what the federal prison sentence that followed the credit card scheme actually looked like from the inside, and what being pregnant in federal prison and giving birth behind bars actually required of a woman who had spent her entire life fighting to survive systems that were never built to help her. _____________________________________________ #pregnancy #prison #truecrimestories #pregnant _____________________________________________ Connect with Tiffany Vulcain: https://www.instagram.com/tjvulcain/ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction and Tiffany's Story 00:22 Early Life and Foster Care 01:18 Life in Jamaica vs. New York 02:10 Dysfunctional Home and Abuse 04:19 Running Away and Finding the Streets 06:11 Entering the Group Home 07:19 Freedom and Life of Crime Begins 09:40 Gang Involvement and Acceptance 10:46 Teenage Arrest and Juvenile Detention 13:13 Inside the Juvenile Facility 14:14 Returning Home and Foster Care Again 16:03 Aging Out and Exploitation 17:16 Escalating Crime and Credit Card Fraud 20:08 How the Fraud Worked 21:45 Facing the Victims 23:42 Self-Perception and Morality 24:42 Getting Caught in Virginia 27:59 The Federal Investigation 29:13 Turning Yourself In 31:28 The Plea Deal and Decision to Not Snitch 33:47 Estrangement from Family 34:15 Arrested Again While Pregnant 35:43 Experiencing Rikers Island 38:00 Sentencing and Lost Self-Surrender 40:08 Transport to MDC Brooklyn 41:40 The MINT Program and Women in MDC 43:57 Husband and Baby Plans 45:08 Giving Birth in Prison 53:16 Compassion vs. Desensitization 54:20 After Birth: Hospital and Advocacy 56:20 Baby in ICU and Special Permission 57:42 Leaving the Hospital Without Baby 01:00:42 Returning to Prison in Depression 01:02:02 Danbury Prison and Transition to Male Facility 01:04:12 Fight and Transfer to Philadelphia 01:07:23 The Shoe and Diesel Therapy 01:10:01 Flight with Chris Brown 01:11:42 Visits and Regret 01:12:24 Life in Philadelphia and Self-Discovery 01:14:00 Another Fight and Return to Brooklyn 01:15:20 Coming Home Without a Plan 01:16:00 Post-Prison Struggles and Betrayal 01:17:20 The Turning Point 01:19:20 Healing and Rebranding 01:20:14 Finding Purpose in Re-entry Work 01:22:51 Current Success and Roles 01:24:10 Message to Younger Self _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

She gave birth while serving time in federal prison. My guest today is Tiffany Vulcan. After a difficult childhood, one decision changed the course of her life and sent her to federal prison. Today, she's sharing what it was like to become a mother behind bars and how she rebuilt her life afterward. I was born in Brooklyn, but I kind of grew up all over New York City because I was in foster care. So, yeah, I've kind of lived in every borough. Where were your parents, your biological parents? So my dad is deceased at the time he was alive.

They were in Queens and living in Roseville, Queens, yeah. Did you know anything about them when you were in foster care? Oh, absolutely. So I lived with my parents for a few years. I actually lived in Jamaica first. So my first memories are in the country, Jamaica, where I lived with my grandmother. And I kind of wanted to come back. I wanted to be with my parents.

I wanted to be with my mom. I had a brother. And I didn't understand why he lived here and I lived there. So I kind of willed my way here. And that's when things went downhill. How vastly different was Jamaica to your upbringing here? Oh, my gosh. It was beautiful.

I had a posh life. We had a driver. I went to the best school. I went to, you know, I had two housemates. or helpers, we called them, I just remember being very happy. So do you think you made the wrong decision coming back? I later found out it wasn't my decision. I was planning to cut.

They were going to bring me back anyways, but I came back earlier because I really wanted to come. So how do you end up in foster care then? So I came back here and the home was very dysfunctional. I don't think people recognize how dysfunctional it was because I guess you could say we had that white picket fence. My mom, she was an educator. My dad, he was financially well off. He had parking lots in Manhattan and a bunch of real estate and business. But they weren't good parents and mistreated me.

Even though I had a brother, he wasn't mistreated. It was me. I didn't understand why I was different. Kind of went into a state of depression as a young child. I even asked to move to the basement and they let me. I was all like downstairs in a basement by myself. My mom, now looking back, I believe she's a narcissist. She didn't like me.

She still doesn't. You still accused me of all kinds of things. There was even like electrocution. She used to kind of get my dad to do things to me. She complained about every little thing I did. I think a lot of it was lies. She accused me of doing things to her in her sleep. It was like bizarre things like that.

I was locked in a room with a potty, wasn't allowed to leave the room. I would have to knock on the door to empty out my feces. So that's the kind of lifestyle, kind of like she created. And I wanted out. I didn't want to be there anymore. And I started to run away. Where would you run to? The street.

I had nowhere to go because no one, everyone was afraid of my dad. My dad was really powerful. and he made a lot of noise. So I would try to go to relatives, but they were afraid to help me. So I ended up meeting people. I was wanting to go to Brooklyn. We lived in Queens, and I was like, I was born in Brooklyn. I want to go back to Brooklyn.

So I would go to Brooklyn on a train to the projects. I remember my dad, he used to take us on drives. And he used to show us, like, that's the projects. That's where poor people are. He had a really judgmental way of describing people in urban communities. But somehow he showed it to me. I was really attracted to it. I'm like somehow these people could be themselves.

And my home is like, you speak a certain way, you eat a certain way. And I eventually found myself in those projects. And what would you do? Meet people, allow people to take advantage of me, try to buy friends, found out how to go boosting. They introduced me to crime. I found out what food stamps were. I found out, like, what goes on in poor communities, or disadvantaged communities, I should say.

And I thought it was a lot more authentic than my household. So I kept running away because it just felt safer to me. And how old are you at this time? So that's hard for me to distinguish, because it's like so much. But I would say between age like eight, nine, nine, and like 12, I was like running away. Twelve, I became like in the foster care system,

probably removed, now living in a group home. Are you going to school during those years? Yeah, I always went to school. I really liked to learn. I was in private school for a lot of the years. My mother stopped paying. The parents stopped paying once I went into the group home, but I was blessed.

My church, they picked up the tab. So a lot of my education was quality education, even though a lot of the peers around me, it wasn't. And none of the teachers are noticing that, you know, you're a child that might be having some difficulty at home? They absolutely did notice. And that's some of the resentment I carried today. Why didn't they step in?

Why didn't they try to support me? Because as I look back, I think I was an obedient child. Like, I would have been open to that guidance and mentorship. There's a lot of judgment. I was in a seven-day event as high school. And so a lot of the kids. had perfect homes or perfect in my way of describing far from what I had experienced. And so those kids got the attention. Those kids got the extra support and I was kind of left behind.

What was the final straw for you to enter into a group home? I think my parents got tired of trying to bring me back and they also weren't accountable to what they were doing. They claimed that I was lying about a lot of stuff that I was saying and they just kind of left me there. And honestly, at the time, I was happy. I didn't want to be abused anymore. I didn't want to live in that room. And like, to this day, I can't smell my own feces. It's like, so we kind of, they let me be, they let me be. And I was okay with that at the time. What was the group home like for you? Freedom for the first time. I was able to go and come as I please. I found out they can't beat me.

Because I was beat. They were beating me a lot. Bicycle locks and belts, all kinds of stuff. So when I came to the group home, you mean that I could just, like, go and come back, and I don't have to listen to the rules, and they can't put their hands on me? I became exactly what they described. They told the courts that I was a child that was disobedient and oppositional. And I wasn't.

But then when I got into the group home, I became that child. And I didn't listen to a lot of the rules. I fought. I stole. I started learning about name brand and Gucci and started becoming mesmerized by that kind of life. And so that's where my life of crime kind of started. When you enter into the group home where your parents stole legally your parents or do you get, is it like being put up for adoption? That's actually a really good question because I'm not entirely sure what happened with me.

That's actually something I plan to do, like read some of the rules. records of family court. But from my understanding, they still had some rights. They came to visit me in the beginning. But I was triggered when I saw them because it was like they were acting like nothing happened. So I think eventually maybe they lost some rights towards the end, but I was already aging out maybe around 17. Did you ever find out why your parents treated you like this? No. I just know my mother has a problem with me. Up until right now, she didn't want me to be a part of the family. I remember hearing that it was her idea for me to go to Jamaica. So she, you know, my grandmother had me for a couple of years. So I only really lived with them

between age six and age 12. And during that time, I can't remember closeness or even her telling me she loved me. I really don't understand what the issue was with between her and I. It's something I'm still looking for the answer for. But maybe I'll never get it. I'm okay with that. Now, you said you started your life a crime when you entered the group home. Did you get arrested at all in your teenage years? Oh, yeah. I got, so I had some gang involvement as well. I didn't mention that. I always wanted money. I was like, I need weed. Everyone's sitting around in the gang smoking weed and just like chilling in his room and like smoke, like I want to get some money. So I think that's why I got in trouble. I always wanted to like, I wanted stuff. It's another thing.

My parents, they have real wealth. I didn't understand that most people who are really wealthy, they don't really care about materialistic stuff like that. So I was focused on the wrong things, I could say. No, go ahead. What did it mean for you to be in a gang? It meant community. It meant acceptance.

It meant that I could be myself. I had an inkling that I probably didn't fit, really. They made fun of the way I spoke. I spoke well. everyone else was using slang. So I remember trying to study the slang, trying to figure out what to say. Like, nah, son, you know, like.

So it was a lot of that, but they still didn't abuse me. They still didn't play me. They still felt like I was included. And I think that was the most important thing to me. So that's why I went that way. How common was it for women to be in gangs during your upbringing? Not common at all. I didn't see a lot of my pairs in gangs.

It was a guy thing. I also thought of myself as tough, and I didn't see myself like other women or other young girls. So I didn't care, really. Did you end up having to serve any time in your teenage years? I did. I ended up going to Auburn, a facility that was open at the time for OCFS.

with OCS for robbery. I had run away so much. I'd been so disrespectful to some of the staff. When I got arrested that time, they didn't come and get me. So if you're a foster child, you don't have parents to come and pick you up, you stay. And that's what happened. I ended up staying in crossroads juvenile detention center in Brooklyn. Maybe about a year, could have been less.

And then I ended up getting 18 months. So a lot of my time as a teenager was spent in that placement. So when you got 18 months, you go to a state facility at that point? Yeah. So it's like similar to like how you have Rikers and then prison. So with the juvenile process, there was the detention center and then a placement. And where was the placement? Upstate New York.

And that's for all juvenile offenders or is that adult at that point? Women juvenile. I mean, girl juvenile offenders. Is that a large population? of offenders? Back then it wasn't. It probably grew now. Women are the fastest growing population

to enter the prison system currently. What were some of those girls doing in prison? What do you mean, like, why they were in prison? Yeah, at that age, a teenager. Was it similar circumstances to you? A lot of it... I saw a lot of youth that had parents that were on drugs, a lot of poverty.

I couldn't identify with a lot of their stories. A lot of violence. Some even violent towards their parents. I also saw some girls who had children, like a mixture of situations, but one commonality was we all had a lot of dysfunction. Now when you're there, what's going through your mind? Are you thinking this is the life you genuinely want for yourself?

You don't think when you're a kid. It was kind of like you just adapt. You're having fun. They have recreation. You find, you tell stories. Some of them are true. Some of them are exaggerated. I remember trying to make it seem like I was big and bad because I felt like I had to do that so that nobody bothered me.

Kind of like what happens in prison. It worked. They saw me as tough, I guess you could say. I was really broken deep down inside. I know that now as I look back. What was that facility like? It was like a, it was. structured. It wasn't a facility that had to be locked in a cell, but you still felt locked up

because it was so far away from everything. So you couldn't run away if you wouldn't get far because there's nothing around where it was. So limited was that was one. But I also, and I feel like people are going to bash me for saying this, it wasn't the worst thing for me because back what I was doing when I was in the community was way more harmful. That was safer, I could say. How old were you when you got out of there? Roughly 16. 16 or maybe 16 and a half.

And do you finish your diploma inside there for high school or you never get it? No, I actually went back to my parents. I went back into a private school. But it didn't work out. I ended up back in foster care shortly. You must have been the only criminal in private school. Actually, no. There were others.

There were others. Some of them, they learned the habits I'd picking up, shoplifting. Some would come along with me. But I kind of felt bad for taking them because I knew they weren't those kind of kids, so I'd stop them from coming. But kids are kids. That's why I'm really big on the influence on my children now. You've got to be careful.

Just exposure is enough to turn any kid. Why did your parents decide to take you back? Did they think that sentence fixed you? That would be a question for my parents. I have no idea. I just knew I was open for a new chance. I thought it was going to be different because I was older. I grew and was more mature.

And I was willing to forgive all of the stuff that they'd done. But my mom, she was terrible. So it just didn't work. And she ended up placing me back into the foster care system. And you stay there for another two years until you're 18? Yeah, I stayed there until I age out and then I help you get you housing and all of that. So you're just on your own once you age out? Yeah.

They give you, I think, at the time, it was $750 bucks. What can you even do with that? Where do you go? My point. something I always say. So what happens? So I never knew I was attractive until I started getting attention from guys.

Meeting the wrong guys, meeting the wrong friends, just being in the wrong place, in the wrong time. I believe I was exploited for my intelligence. And I started boosting heavy. Like all kind of schemes, electronics, high-ticket items. I used to get away with a lot of stuff. So they were grooming me.

One guy in particular I had a relationship with, and that kind of like, I quit my jobs once I realized I'm making this amount of money. And then crime just escalated from there. I started getting into the credit card game. Not the same guy. I wasn't with him anymore. but I started making a lot of money and I realized I could be rich or so I thought

and I just become obsessed with accumulating cash money I didn't need at a certain point and just kept going and going and going until I couldn't go anymore now are these older guys guys your age all the time older everyone that I was associated with was older significantly older Some significantly over. And some I still carry resentment for resentment because of that.

It's like you had no business with me. You had no business engaging with me or even had like you're the reason why I committed this crime. Right. So yeah, there was a lot of that. And when you, I learned that because those people couldn't afford to be arrested anymore had a whole bunch of felonies or whatever it is on their background. you're looking for the next person who can afford an arrest or two. And so, again, I was exploited.

Why do you think you stayed around them if you were making good money yourself doing, say, fraud? Love. Love. Four sense of love, but belonging. It's what I always wanted, was always missing because I didn't have it from my own family. And you kind of realize people can pick up when you have a love. low self-esteem, when you have issues with wanting to belong, when you want to be a part of something. And it doesn't make you attractive, right? And so you get the bottom of the barrel type of treatment.

And as long as I wasn't being electrocuted like I was at home, it was all right with me. So I think that that's the reason why. Now when you say credit fraud schemes, what did that entail? So it was, I think it was when a lot of people were doing this a couple years ago, well, significantly a couple years ago now. But we were basically using credit card numbers and reprinting them on cards to be able to use them in stores. But the credit card numbers often didn't match the actual credit card number, if that makes sense, like the visible number. So a lot of us got caught. But that was the way I got caught anyway. Yeah.

So the card doesn't work if you don't get the right number. The card, the card, so the last four works. Oh. The last four worked. As long as the last four matched, the only thing that's going to, was at the time, was printed on a receipt was the last four. So as long as that matched, we were good. So we were buying merchandise.

I was, it was a free lifestyle. I didn't have to pay for anything. It became addictive pretty quickly. What year is this? What time frame? So I went to prison in 2012. So this is like 2010, 2011. And how do you get the numbers? Well, it was a device.

So my charge was access device fraud. Oh, like one of those ones that they put on, like, a scanner or an ATM or something, which they still do now to the. this day? I don't know what they do. Yeah, you're not involved in it. Thank God. No, you see it in the articles and stuff. I don't know if it's still going. Like, really, I don't, I'm not sure. But I know back then it was a device. And my mistake was that we were involved with this device that was on a Navy base. So that's why it became federal. It's actually, I was arrested by the NCIS. How did you get involved on a Navy base? Someone who worked on a Navy base. Someone who worked on a Navy base.

Bay said that they would hold the device and collect numbers. And so I worked with people. One person, so I worked with people who were related to my best friend. So I had this friend, she was like my only friend. And her family really was deeply entrenched in a credit card life. And that's how I became involved by following them. So this was a connection of the guy who, who started, I'm trying to not say names

and trying to leave out details as much as possible. But basically, my best friend's cousin, he was the one that had a lot of relationships. And some of these people I hadn't even known personally, they were my co-defendants, if that makes, like, I think that context is helpful. Now, did you feel like there were actual victims in your case or no, because you knew people could, you know,

just dispute the charges or? They were absolutely. They were victims. But I didn't know that then. I see that now. One particular story that stays with me and I really feel bad about is when a person who had, their husband was across seas serving in a military. And she didn't have diapers for her baby. And she said as a part of my discovery that she'd been trying to go to the ATM to get money for her child.

and the baby had no diapers because of that, because it took time to rectify what I had done. Before then, I never connected those numbers to actual people. I kept thinking, like, oh, they're going to get their money back. It's not big of a deal. Like, I really warped my thinking. I could remember thinking, like, I would never steal from you. You could trust me.

Like, I could come to your house. You could, there could be money in front of me. I had great character, right? This is insurance money. It'll be fine. until I heard those stories on my case. And I realized that's actually not the case. Do you think it also had to do with, you know,

you growing up well off or you didn't experience not having money for, say, basic necessities? No. I think it had a lot to do with the company I was keeping. And the mentality of those people, they don't have empathy because it's survival. It's, I got to get the next lick. I got to get money in my pocket. You know, people in those environments, they don't think that they can get a job. They don't see themselves as professionals.

And so I don't believe criminals want to commit crime. It's really your back against the wall. And me wanting that acceptance, wanted to be around them because I didn't have that at home. I was influenced negatively. Would you have considered yourself a bad person or a criminal at that point in time? Absolutely not. I used to take the money that I made from crime and help people. help people with bills and daycare and just buying people's stuff.

I bought love. I bought my friends. Like, let's go shopping. You want a new kitchen? Come on, let's go get a new kitchen. And I didn't even realize, like, a lot of these people don't even care about me. It was just what I was able to do for them. Before any of this happened, did you have a career in mind you wanted to get into?

No. This was my lifestyle. You never had any hopes or dreams. I felt like I was slick enough to get away with it. I was like, maybe I buy some real estate like my dad. I'm an entrepreneur at heart. I can't remember. That's a really good question that I don't think anyone else has asked me.

No, I didn't have any dreams besides of what I was doing. I was focused. So now this scam went on for a couple of years. Yeah. How did you end up getting caught, like the day you got arrested? So I was arrested in Virginia. and I was arrested first with the state. So the person who was babysitting my kid,

because I had a son, one son at the time, I was trying to get her stuff, trying to be nice. And I was like, she was like, you need to come back, but she doesn't know I'm in Virginia. So I'm like, what do you need? I'll get you some stuff trying to distract her. And I stayed in the store much longer than I should have. And the loss prevention officers,

They were watching us. We kind of felt something, but you have credit cards. It's not like we're stealing anything. Nobody's going to run up on you like that. So we're walking out of the store. I was with my best friend at the time. And we see police officers coming. And I'm like, okay, but that can't be for us.

The police officers walked past us. My best friend took the cards that she had and slipped them in her underwear. Me? I had them in my wallet. So the loss prevention officer comes behind us and says, them, right there, I called because of them. So the police officers, they come, and now they're, like, escorting us back into the room. So he's like, let me get that. They took the wallet out of my hand.

I was caught. They saw the cards. They were able to – it took them quite a bit of time to figure out that they were fraudulent. But eventually what happened was I was arrested and she was let go. And so I didn't know that the federal government was actively investigating me at that time. They had investigated me for about seven months. So I thought this was a petty charge. I ended up getting a bail.

I think it was a very high bill. I had to get a lawyer to get a bail hearing. First, they said no bail. So it took some money to get out, but I had the money. I had my husband there supporting me at the time as well. And in the midst of going back and forth to court for that case, I got a phone call from the feds. And they were like, hey, we just missed you at your pretrial. Because another condition for that state case was that I had to report every week.

So I wasn't supposed to be leaving Virginia, but my whole life was in New York. So I had to go back to Virginia every week. So I had a phone call and said, we know you're on your way back to New York. We know you're not supposed to be going. back to New York, but that's not what we're concerned about. You have a federal indictment. And I was like, is this a prank? Is this a joke?

Like, no, you've been, the same thing that you got arrested for with the state case, we have a much broader investigation we've been conducting. You need to come and meet us at X. And I'm like, my husband is like, no, tell him in the morning. You're just going to sit in the jail. Court that's not open. So I was like, you want me to tell the feds tomorrow? Like, what?

And he's like, tell him tomorrow. So I told him tomorrow, they're like, sure. Can meet us at the courthouse. And I did. My whole life changed with one phone call. Who were those guys on the phone, the FBI? They were NCIS officers. Navy police.

And your husband, is he just a normal citizen? Or is he a guy from the streets at that time? He was a guy from the streets. He was, say, a leader of a gang. Now, why Virginia? Why were you there to begin with? Because that's where the numbers were coming from at the time. We had gotten numbers from everywhere.

But Virginia is what is the investigation they started building was in Virginia. And was your name on the cards or would you use a fake name? No, my name was on the cards. To match your ID. To match my ID. In case anyone asked. Yeah. Were people asking at that time for ID to match a credit card?

Mm-hmm. And I had the idea. It wasn't a big deal. Now, why not just do online shopping? I didn't think that far. Because Amazon existed, right, at that point in time, yeah. It wasn't as big as it is now. And it wasn't something, like online shopping wasn't my thing.

I think we've done some stuff online, but that wasn't the way to get the most out of the card or, like, the limit, the credit card limit. So tell us about the day you turned yourself in what that was like. It's like a blur. I was with my husband. I remember standing in front of the courthouse. The officers were strangely nice, just extremely nice. And they're like, oh, giving me a phone.

Oh, you probably want to give this up. Up, your earrings. And I'm just like stripping myself, like, okay. And then we walked in. We interrogated me a couple of hours. asked me if I wanted food. You know, I was pregnant also at the time with my second child. And I didn't want to tell.

I didn't want to tell her my best friend. I didn't want to tell her family. They were my family at that time. And they, like, had pictures of us together, different seasons. I realized they'd gone in garbages and gotten receipts that I'd thrown out. like a real TV show. I couldn't believe it. But I refused to tell on her.

I loved her. So I ended up getting five years instead of the one year that I could have gotten. Now, do they release you that day? Do they give you bail or after they interrogate you? They gave me bail.

They gave me bail. They gave me a signature bail. I don't believe we had to pay any money. I could be wrong. I don't remember I was paying any money. I got out like a day later. And do you get a paid attorney or a public defender? I had a public defender for that case.

And that's because I had a paid attorney for the state case. And then I had to stop doing what I was doing. So my money was going down and I'm not making any money. So I chose. And then I felt like I didn't have much of a defense. they literally had everything right in front of me, like a big binder. So I ended up going with a public defender, but it was like an 18B attorney. So he was a private attorney, but under contract with the feds.

Now, how much are they saying the dollar amount is that you stole? I can't remember. Maybe over 100,000. I can't remember the exact number. I'm still paying that restitution, so I should know that. number. And that was 100,000 collectively among everyone or just you specifically? No, collectively. It was over 100,000. But the thing is, the way that they did it, because the investigation continued even after I was caught. And so one thing I did dispute was that the

dollar amount was much higher. But what I was responsible for collectively, so they stopped counting the dollar amount against me after that first arrest. So I was able to prove that, hey, I hadn't went in any stores. I didn't commit any more fraud once I was arrested with the state. So then the dollar amount reduced to like over a hundred, a little bit over a hundred thousand. They separated it. Yeah. Okay. And they wanted you to flip on everyone else involved. Yes, correct. And you would have gotten only a year? A year and a day, which would have been, I think, 10 months. Looking back on it now, do you think you made the right decision? Or do you wish you flipped on them.

That's an interesting question. I think everything happens for a reason. I don't think it was the wisest decision. I know most people, like, there's a street culture that no stitching. That wasn't the reason why I didn't snitch. It was because I loved her. And I couldn't do something like that to somebody I really loved. I didn't live by the streetcoat.

It's not, you know, that wasn't my concern. It's very easy for me to say I wish I would have because of the way she treated me afterwards. But I don't think I would change anything because of who I am today. Do you think she would have done the same for you if she got coffers? Absolutely not. She told me that she probably wouldn't have been able to. How does that make you feel? I'm different.

I always knew I was. I can't say that because, ooh, I'm sorry. I can't, because of how what she would have done, that doesn't change what I did. That's who she is, and we're two different people. Now, are your parents still in the picture at all when you get arrested? No. I was estranged from my family for years at this point. What about your brother?

My brother, we never had a relationship. My parents didn't want me to talk to him, because especially when I started getting involved in crime, he wasn't allowed to talk to me. Any other family? I had a sister. We hadn't had a relationship. I was completely estranged from my family for years. Now, how long is the legal process play out from the time you're arrested by the feds to the time you actually have to go to prison? So quick.

They wrapped it up so quick, which was odd. Maybe about four months. From entering not guilty all the way to taking a plea deal? From my arrest to my imprisonment because I was pregnant. And I maybe about five months and then I still didn't have the baby and I was already in Denver in prison. Couldn't you have fought that to wait till after to have the baby on the free world? Or you didn't want to. I was trying to.

But I got arrested before I went in. Arrested again? For what? For boosting. Because I was trying to get clothes for my unborn baby. Boosting, like stealing out of a store? Only it wasn't just any store. It was Bloomingdale's.

You tried to steal from Bloomingdale? Yes. Wait, there's baby items. Yeah. So I had this thing with materialistic stuff. And I had gotten, like in urban communities, you get this. respect for having this thing. And I was like, everybody's going to talk about me.

I'm locked up. Now my kids are bombs. So I went to get, like, expensive jackets and clothing and mindset was just completely off. And I ended up getting arrested. Right. The NYPD. The NYPD. And then they revoked your bond.

They revoked me. They basically kept me. They, they had a hold. By the time I went and saw the judge, I had a federal hold. And where they send you, MDC? Rikers. Oh, you go to Rikers and you're pregnant. I had to wait on Rackers for a few weeks for the marshals to pick me up to transport me to MDC.

How does that work being gang related to and pregnant? Do they separate you? I wasn't gang related anymore. Once I was released from the juvenile facility and I saw those gang members didn't show up for me in any capacity. I was really smart. I was like, I'm done with the gang. Now what about just being pregnant at Rikers? Do they have special housing for you?

No. So they just put you with all the other women? Just like I'm not pregnant. Wow. That sounds risky. It was hard, but it's funny how when you're in that kind of trauma, you don't even realize it. It's almost like your brain just figures it out and you just adapt and try to make friends and make the time pass. And what were the conditions like in there for you?

The condition and records are disgusting. It was dirty. It was disgusting. I can't even... Do they give you specialty food because you're pregnant or medical attention? No. I had a lot of grievances because I was hungry. I remember, like, having hunger pain at night.

I used to try to, like, eat the commissary, the noodles. I was nauseous. It was just, it was horrible. It really was. I just interviewed one woman recently who was saying that they would just give her a bag of lunch in Texas when she was pregnant. Yeah, they gave us. bag lunches, like, if you're in a holding cell. And, like, some, like, I couldn't eat peanut butter.

So I would try to ask, like, I can't eat, can I have a cheese sandwich? Oh, you get what you get. And then, like, in Rikers, it's the incarcerated individual who's giving you the lunch through the bars. So I'm, like, trying to negotiate with that person. But sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. It was just terrible. Now, do they give you medical checkups?

Yeah, they were good with that. I could say that. They checked on me often. I didn't get like a sonogram or anything like that, but they would check the baby's heartbeat. They would just check to see that I was okay. Now, do you go from Rikers to you sentencing? No, I was already sentenced.

Oh, you were already sentenced. Oh, I skipped that. I'm sorry. So much stuff. So by the time I was re-arrested, I was sentenced, but waiting to self-surrender. Oh, you were going to be able to self-surrender? Yes.

But I was trying to get an extension so that I can have the baby first. And my lawyer was working on it. It was looking pretty good. But once I got that arrest, it was like no self-surrender, no extension, you stay there. Why would the judge not bring up that issue at sentencing? Like they do for, you know, say the holidays, they'll tell the person you can come after the holidays. It wasn't a priority. It wasn't something that she even considered.

I remember trying to advocate for it. But my lawyer also was discouraging me from pushing too hard for that. So I was trying to advocate for myself, like, please, can you please try to get an extension? You know? But he was saying, like, you don't have a job. There's no reason. You don't have connections with your family. Like, what would be the reason for you to have this baby first?

I don't have a good argument. How much time did they end up sentencing you two? Five years. Five years, yeah, I mentioned that. Okay. So you get five years. you go to Rikers after you get arrested? Well, I actually got 59 months, sorry.

So it's four years and 11 months. So I go to Rikers and then I stay on Rikers for a couple of months, a couple of weeks, waiting for the feds. Every week I'm just, I'm asking, hey, are they coming this week? I think it was like a certain day, like Wednesday. And one week they showed up and they took me. And then oddly, that time didn't count. They didn't count that time?

They didn't count that time. Wow. Yeah, I did the whole computation thing in the feds and said, but I was on Rikers, and I didn't have, technically that time, it never counted. They never, it never, it didn't work. I'm surprised they didn't just bring you to Brooklyn when you got arrested, too. I guess because they. Because I had that other case. Yeah, they didn't process it as a bond violation.

Yeah, well, it wasn't a bond because I was already sentenced. So it was weird. It was a gray area. It was like a gray area. So who picks you up? Is it like a ban or a bus? The marshals. Just you or other people?

Just me. And they bring you to your prison? They brought me to MDC, which was a holding facility at the time. Now they have cadres. But at the time, there was no one that was sentenced. They felt it was risky for me to go all the way to Danbury, which was where I was designated. So they wanted me to have the baby in MDC first. and then once I was well enough, they would transport me to Danbury.

How long would you have to stay at MDC? Maybe two months, three months. That's not the best spot to be at. No. It was hard. MDC was a little bit better than Rikers in terms of the conditions. It wasn't nasty and dirty. Some of the women there, they were really nice.

I would say, I feel bad for putting it this way, but like a different level of people, a higher quality of people. A lot of the women were, they just helped me get through the time. They helped me understand how prison worked, what kind of programs. And I kind of planned what I would be doing for the years ahead. And also I was looking into seeing if there's a program called the Mint program where I might have been able to have my baby with me in the feds. But unfortunately, I had come in, my pregnancy was too far along.

and I wouldn't have had enough time to apply for that program. So they were just like, they changed the way that I see women, honestly. I'm still a fierce advocate of women because of the experience that I had. Those women were really good to me. So in this Mint program, you would have been able to keep your baby in prison the whole sentence? I don't think it's the whole sentence, but it's a significant amount of time, maybe a year or so. And it's in a separate unit? They have a whole facility.

Oh, yeah. I've never heard of this before. I was doing my research. Now, are you housed with women that are just pregnant at MDC? No. I had, there was maybe one other pregnant woman. We were, that's not a thing to separate pregnant women in general population. Do you think it should be?

Probably. It probably, it would have been safer for me. But I didn't feel unsafe. It's like, There's not as many pregnant women, so if I was separated, I would have been lonely. My mental health may have suffered. And I didn't go through that, so I can't really speak on how it would have been. But only with considering safety, then yes.

But other than that, I think it was healthy for me to be in the dorm with the other women because it helped my time go by. Now, what are they teaching you about prison and what kind of plans are you putting in your mind from their lessons? So they taught me about count time, how serious count time is. I've been in Rikers, but stand up for count, the times that they count, they taught me what was on commissary and how to cook, like, potato logs for plans. They told me the kind of programs that Dan Barry had. There was a college program that I was planning to get into, unfortunately, by the time I got. got to Danbury, they had cut it. So that's something that I plan to do.

They told me the kitchen was the place to be if you weren't going to get money because you could sell stuff. They kind of just told me like how prison politics worked. There were no surprises. I was well prepared. Did you and your husband stay together? In prison? Yeah.

No. You guys got divorced? Oh, you mean stay together in a relationship? Yeah, yeah. For a good while, we did, but I can't give that part away because it's the arc of my book. We ended up having a lot of problems, but I don't want to get into exactly why. Now, did you have plans for where the baby would go? Yeah, he was supposed to take the baby and also my older son, which wasn't his child biologically.

I don't know why I thought he could handle it or I guess because I didn't have anyone else. but his aunt who wasn't my favorite at the time stepped up she went and got the baby from the hospital she was like this is my baby and I didn't like it then I resented her you know we didn't have the best relationship as I mentioned but in retrospect I'm grateful for her

because there were so many women who had lost their children to adoption and named changes where they had never going to see their kids again And so I had the support that I didn't realize I had. Tell us about giving a birth at Brooklyn. What was that like? It was a mess. Basically, I knew I was in labor, but I didn't say anything because I wanted to make sure.

I didn't have natural labor the first time I had a baby. My labor was induced. So this time, it kind of snuck up on me. I remember curling up in a fetal position in the morning count. And the officer came and she said, are you okay? And I was like, I don't know. I was like, can I take a shower? But we're not allowed to take showers until a certain time.

She allowed me to take a shower. And the shower, I started feeling more pain while I was standing up. And I realized I was in labor. So I let them know I was in labor. And they tried to bring a stretcher. the stretcher kept collapsing. Now, the housing unit is like a mile-long walk to R&D. So first you have to stop by the infirmary.

You have to get permission from whatever medical professional is there to confirm your own labor. If the doctor wasn't there, so they called him. We have to go to R&D. I remember there was a Caucasian masculine presenting. officer who was to escort me. She wasn't nice. She didn't want to go to the hospital.

It was overtime that she didn't want. So we ended up getting in the ambulance. They didn't handcuff me. Thankfully, that law had passed where they don't handcuff in the federal jurisdiction for labor or pregnancy. And so I, well, no. They will handcuff for pregnancy, but not when you're in labor. In the ambulance, I remember being in so much pain and I grabbed her.

Like one of the contractions hit, I grabbed the woman's arm and she snatched it back from me. And it just reiterated that you are all alone. Like there's no one here to support you. And I remember like my eyes are welling up right now. But I remember crying, but I didn't want her to see me crying. So I would just put my head to the side and I just grabbed the rail of the bed. And I was squeezing the railing every time I got a contraction. And then we will go to the hospital and we're sitting and we're talking to the nurse.

And it was like an out-of-body experience where the nurse is not talking to me. She's talking to the officer. So she too treated me like a number. Just because she knew I was incarcerated, like she would not. talk to me directly. And if there was a question that the officer didn't have, the officer would ask me and then say it to her as if I wasn't sitting there. And then she says, she checks me and she says that I'm not ready. So my head snaps. I'm like, what do you mean I'm not ready? You're only, I don't remember maybe two or three centimeters dilated. So she has to go back

and come back. And they're like, I'm like, I'm incarcerated. Like, I'm locked. up. I'm going to be going back to the prison. She's like, well, that's where you're going to have to go until you further along. And so the officers did try to advocate for me. The hospital didn't have the bed space. So I went back to the MDC in active labor. And I walked and I laid down and I got in a shower about 15 times a day. And that's when I discovered the beauty of those women. They put pillows under my stomach. Like they really, really, really helped me get through that time. And then my water broke on the bunk, like all over, like a lot of water. And I was like, I think I'm ready now. So my bunkie at the time, she went and got the officer, but now I'm an excruciating pain.

This pain was unbearable. I could barely walk. So they went and went and got the stretcher and the stretcher was still doing the same thing but I couldn't make it. So I'm walking really slow. I'm stopping. I'm holding onto the walls. Officers are not really supposed to touch you. So I'm holding myself up. Finally they get a wheelchair. They wheel me to the infirmary. They have to call the doctor. They have to get clearance. We go to the R&D receiving discharge area. And I remember I couldn't even sit in the wheelchair. Like I I was crawling around on a nasty floor. And I'm just, I was crying.

Like, I'm looking at the floor and I'm looking at the nasty dirt in the corners. And I was just like, this cannot be my life. You know, like this just, I don't deserve this. But that situation, I believe, showed me how real God is. I am, I should have said that first. I believe in God, a Christian woman. The woman and the guy that escorted me the second time, they were wonderful to me. That woman was rubbing my back.

She's not supposed to do that, right? She's like, I'm here with you. I got you. She helped me with my breathing rhythm. And it really felt like I had a family member with me. And I believe that I had to go to the hospital and come back. I don't believe in coincidences for this woman to now be there with me. She ended up being the woman that was there with me for most of the time.

I ended up finding out that they were a couple, so that was cool. I was in labor for a couple of hours. I still wasn't ready to go when I went, but they kept me because once your water breaks, they keep you. So I'm like fetal position. I have the gown on. The back of the gown is open. I'm like crawling. the guy is like, no.

I didn't care. I was just like, childbirth is a pain that, ugh. And then finally, I ended up getting medication to help me. And so they told me, now I'm reliving it, they told me I had to get a C-section because he wasn't breathing properly. So I didn't trust the hospital. I thought it was a scam. I thought it was some cahoots.

They're going to try to take out my uterus. Let me see. Let me see. Let me see what you're seeing. Show me his oxygen level. I'm in pain, but I'm trying to make sure that, you know, because I don't have anybody there to advocate for me. And the monitor started beeping, and one of the nurses just grabbed my arm.

She's like, if you don't get a C-section, your baby's going to die. And so I signed the paperwork, and as I'm signing, they're shaving me, they're rolling me. Like, all of this is happening at the same time. And I just closed my eyes and I said, Lord, please protect me. Please protect my baby. But I had that guard with me in the corner. Like, they had the sheet up. And she was like, you're okay, you're okay.

And she was just that voice of reason. And moments later, I heard him cry and I knew he was okay. And I saw him. and I fell in love, but I was torn at the same time. I knew I wasn't going to be with him. Probably, I was like one of the hardest times in my life. Why do you think some officers are compassionate and others aren't? Is it because of other previous experiences with those that are incarcerated?

Or do you think it's just the system in general that forces them to be that way? I think it's a myriad of reasons. I think these, some of the, Some of them become desensitized. Even as a person who works in reentry myself, I have to make sure that I maintain empathy. Sometimes it's burnout. A lot of correction officers are doing so much overtime. I mean, even you doing this podcast, you hear story after story after story.

It's just like after a while it takes away from maybe empathy you can feel towards the person. And so I will say the officer that accompanied me the second time, she was a newer correctional. officer. I can't speak for the first one. That may have been why she was more empathetic towards me. But I think it could be based on background. It could be based on how that person is raised, how they see people who commit crimes, you know? I think it's a lot of different reasons. Now, who takes care of the bill when you get birth in prison? Is it the prison system? Yes. You don't get hit with that bill. No, thankfully. That's interesting. Yeah. How much does a pregnancy cost, do you know? That's a really good question. Ian, you have some great questions.

Thank you. Well, you know, when you're doing this for a while, you come up with someone. Yeah. Your first pregnancy, though, that was on your own? Yeah, I was home. But one of the things I forgot to tell you was that while I was pregnant and I was in MDC, I advocated for myself to have my husband join me at the hospital. This was not a common practice. This was something that was unheard of. So you've been in prison, you know about mainline. So I had to speak to my case manager, and they're like, you got to speak to the next person. And ultimately, you have to get to the warden.

And they're like, he's never going to let you have your family come. Like, that doesn't happen. And I was just so determined. I'm like, how do you expect me to have a baby by myself? And I got up to the warden, and he was like, sure. We can try it. Like, yeah. You can't have him when you're giving birth.

But as soon as you give birth, he can come to the hospital. He can stay there with you as long as he can until you come back to the institution. So immediately after I gave birth, I asked the officer to call my husband. She was able to verify it with the facility, and he was able to come. Oh, that's great. Then the facility started to do that with other women. I found out later. So he took your kid home that day?

No. So my baby ended up going to the ICU because he had jaundice. He had to go under the light, which was another challenge because now I couldn't go into ICU. So we only have three days. Now, you know, I know it was because of me. I'm like, there's something wrong with him. He has, his eye has mucus. I'm trying to get the attention of the officers.

They're not paying attention to what I'm saying. Until one nurse, I was showing my baby and she took him. She did some tests. she said he has to go to ICU right away. And so now I had advocated for him, which I knew something was wrong, but now I can't see him. I don't have him in my arms. So I asked the officer, I was like, can you please call the facility to see if it's okay for me to go into ICU? The issue was the hospital didn't allow the officer to enter the ICU with guns.

But I couldn't be anywhere where a person wasn't armed. This is why I believe in God, because the warden did it for me again. He said that one guard was to stay outside of ICU with two guns, and one officer can escort me inside without any weapons. So I was able to visit with my baby regularly while he was in the ICU unit, which was really nice. It made a big difference. It's also crazy.

They have three officers for a nonviolent offender. It was two. It was two. Oh, okay. One person outside and one person inside, yeah. Even so, it still seems like a lot. Excessive, yeah. And five years is considered short time.

Yeah. So now what happens after you give birth? You're in the hospital for three days and then you just go right back to Brooklyn. Like nothing happened? Yep. This is, yep. I remember the last day. I actually write about it in my book.

They were like talking about it. The doctors, they have like a team of doctors that go around to each bed and they just read the chart of the patient. So they did that with me. And they're like, yeah, mom's all ready to be discharged. And I'm thinking in my head, like, you're saying that like I'm going home. Like, it was just, it was irritating me. And then they're talking about, like, my stitches are good and all of this stuff. And then I just was like, I can't go back yet.

They were ready to, like, they're making plans to escort me. And I was like, I can't. I can't go. And she's like, what do you mean you can't go? I was like, I cannot go back yet. I need some more time. So she was like, I tried to talk to the hospital. So they called the facility to see if I could stay for a little bit, a couple more hours.

And the facility said I could stay until three. This was maybe around 11. So I took so many trips to ICU that day, even though I was in pain, couldn't barely walk because of my C-section cut. And then the hour came. When I was there, I was holding the baby. My husband was there. They asked him to leave first because of some security protocol that he couldn't walk out with us. And that was the first time I heard him cry.

He screamed. They took him out of my hands and I had to walk out of the door and I didn't look back. And I just remember counting the tile. They were pushing me in a wheelchair and I was just counting the tile, trying to keep my mind off of what was really happening. And then we got into the van. I saw my husband drive by with my car. And it was just a moment of, like a surreal moment for me.

Like this, you're about to be gone from these kids, from this man. You're going to prison now. Because the whole reason why I was in Brooklyn, MDC, I was getting visits and stuff, I would now be traveling to Danbury. There was nothing holding me there anymore. So we get in the van and it's just hitting every bump. There's no seatbelt. I can't brace myself.

It feels like my stitches are ripping. You're like, what do you want to listen to? I'm just like ignoring them. I'm like, high 97. And it seems like even in that instance, those officers, not intentional. but were desensitized to what was happening to me. But I didn't cry until I got into the facility, and I remember hearing the metal behind me, the door closed.

And then I started crying. I was like, this is crazy. Like, I can't believe I did this. How do you go to sleep that first night, you know, back in, especially after all that? I didn't sleep for nights. I was in so much pain. I was so depressed. some of the women who had been really supportive of me prior to coming into the facility,

they were even more supportive, but I didn't know how to receive that support. So snapping at some of them, it was just a blur. Deep depression. I didn't want to take perks because I didn't want to be hooked on drugs. So I was taking more, what is it, Moulterin, and I couldn't deal with the pain anymore. So they ended up giving me something a little bit stronger. But it was just days of laying on that cot, hard cut. You're feeling your hip bone.

I'm feeling this. I was ready to go. I wanted to go to Danbury. But they wouldn't chip me because I wasn't here, my stitches. So I ended up staying for a couple weeks after anyways. It was just an eagerness to get out of that dorm. You know, NBC is one room. Just three televisions.

I'm not a television watcher. I can't really work out because I'm hurt. You know, it was just, it was horrible. Dan Bearer is probably a night and day difference for you. 100%. 100%. I appreciated Danbury. As bad as that sounds.

And now that's a all-female camp. Well, when I went there, it was an all-female prison. And while I was there, they transitioned into a male prison. So the female camp was there, but I wasn't eligible. You can go to the camp? My points. I still don't know why I had high classification going in. And then it didn't help that I always got in trouble with.

I don't know. Ended up in the shoe. So classification ended up going higher. But in the beginning, Danbury was not a male facility. was all female facility. So was it all three parts or was it just the main part and they didn't have the two separate parts at that point? So they had the main part and they had the camp. And then they built the third one.

Yes. So they shipped us. So how it happened was we all had to prepare the prison for the guys. So I saw modern day slavery. If you didn't do construction, if you didn't do sheetrock, if you didn't help, you know, moving furniture, all this stuff, you went to the shoot. Me, I worked in the kitchen, which was good. up working in veggie prep. I think you know why. So I, it was just crazy. Like, people were shipped out 10 at a time, 20 at a time. Your name was on a call out. You were shipped. Property is a big

thing while you're incarcerated. People who've been incarcerated for 50 years had to part ways with stuff because you only couldn't travel with two T-shirts or this amount of bars or so. People were really crying and depressed by losing stuff. Then you had women who had been in relationships for a long time, getting shipped out going to two different prisons. It was interesting to watch. And so eventually the prison closed. I was in the last batch. I was in the shoe when we got shipped.

I ended up getting into a fight. and my next stop was Philadelphia. Why did you get into a fight? That particular time, I think it was over Hooch. You were drinking in there? No, I was trying to make money. I was trying to, I was trying. So I worked in the kitchen, so I had access to the ingredients to make Hooch.

And so someone else, I always never wanted to get my hands dirty. I worked in veggie prep, so they always. was searching my room. So the person who I was trying to do the business with, she ended up selling the hooch, moving it after I got all the stuff. Probably was missing one item. And I saw her bunkie. We worked together in the kitchen and she was drinking hooch.

And I was like, there's no one else on this compound with hooch. So I was like, where did you get that hooch from? She was like, my bunky. So I realized what she did. done, I approached her about it. She was like, yeah, Anne, what you're going to do? I was like, what am I going to do? So this is a person testing me. I already have a few years left. If people hear about that, what's going to happen to me? So I packed up my stuff and I put my hands on. I know, it's hard to believe. But I did. And I ended up getting caught. Did she fight back?

Yeah, we had a fight. And would people snitch on you or did the guards catch you in the act? They always snitch on me. They hated me in Danbury. Like they snitched on me about the vegetables. I was taking vegetables out of the kitchen selling it. Those guards searched my room every day. Any little thing I did, they couldn't wait for me to go to the shoe.

So they do the hand check. So they checked our knuckles. The knuckles, yeah. So did some people get to stay in Danbury when they made the low, too? So no. They had to move. Everyone had to leave. And for about two years, they built it.

And then folks who were still eligible or still wanted to be in that region came back. So what year did you leave Danbury? So I went to Danbury, 2013, maybe 2013, 14. Wow. So I literally was at that same facility just a few years later. Because that now was for men. Yeah, that was the Men's Low. And they had the field and the gym and the Chow Hall and the different.

units. So they had that many. So really quick. I just want to know. How was your experience in Danbury? Was it bad? I was only on the yard for a few hours because a guard reported that I dated his cousin and that we were friendly. So they put me in the shoe. And what's interesting about the shoe too at that time, one, they have the jail cell bars, which you were there. But at that time, when it was the men's low, if you were a female that had to go to the shoe, they'd bring you to Brooklyn because there was no woman's shoe at that time. Oh, yes, because I was in the shoe with some of those Yeah, they got rid of them and they brought them straight to MDC. So that reduced fighting, I guess, at the camp and the low.

Well, I guess when you go to Shoe from camp, I don't think you get, a lot of them don't get to go back to camp. Yeah, most of the time they don't. Yeah, but honestly, Danbury's shoe, mental health-wise, wasn't bad because you get to talk to people. And you fish through the. Yes. And then it was, you saw the windows, you'd see the sun every morning and everything. Yeah. It made a difference.

It made a difference. So they send you back to Brooklyn or you go to FDC Philly? From Danbury. FDC Philly. Straight. Sorry. I went to Brooklyn in my travel. But now they told me that I was in the shoe pending transfer.

So once the compound was closing, I was in the shoe, prison was closing. They're like, you're designated to Philly, but you're going to Brooklyn first as a part of my transportation. So I'm like, okay, at least I'll get out of shoe. I get to Brooklyn, they hand me orange. I'm like, I'm finished with my shoe time. They're like, oh, well, we don't have, you know, the tools to compensate your time. So we'll just let the next facility worry about it. I'm like, so I have to go back to the shoe.

Brooklyn MDC shoe and Danbury arm shoe is, that's two completely different experiences. I was in a steel box. You couldn't hear anything. You couldn't see anything. So that was a hard time, too. How long were you there for? Or how long is it take? I'd say a month.

Yeah, it takes forever to get to one state over. So then you finally make it to Philly. That was your designated spot? No, I went to Oklahoma. They bring you for, oh, they put you through diesel therapy. They brought me to Oklahoma transfer center. So you go from Danbury to Brooklyn, then to Stewart Air Force Base, then all the way to Oklahoma just to go back to Stewart Air Force Base?

Holy cow Wait Yeah How long do they Where do they just keep you in Oklahoma For like a day or two I was there for probably a week Yeah that's called diesel therapy

That's what you guys call it Yep No I don't remember that term What did you guys call it back then The Transfer Center No no just the experience of why There was no need for you to go to Oklahoma

Air Force One The Air Force One The airplane but they didn't have a name for the experience. It's crazy that they did that to you. Yeah. So what did it take you like four months to get to Philly? No.

Oh, like from Brooklyn. From Danbury? From Danbury? Because I went to Brooklyn after. And then I went to not four months, maybe a month and a half. Still a long time. Yeah, to go one state over. How was your experience on the plane?

I hated it. Because, you know, the cat calls the guys. There's like a million guys. on a plane, probably like four girls. But Chris Brown was on a plane. You were telling me that off camera. Yeah. I didn't realize that because he had a DC case, it's automatically federal.

Yeah. So where was he going to spend his time? I'm not sure. But it was entertaining because I was always really afraid to be on the plane handcuffed. And then, like, outside of the plane that I was on, you saw some duct tape. So I was like, did they duct tape that wing on? I was scared. So Chris Brown was talking about like some movie stints and behind the scene stuff.

Everybody was asking him some questions. And it was just really entertaining. So we didn't have to actually think about being on the plane. And the women sit in the front of the plane, right? All the men are like cat calling you and everything. And some of the women like, they like that. Me, I was uncomfortable. And plus I had been in the shoe for so long.

I was skinny. When you're in a shoe, you don't eat properly. Your skin is ashy. They don't give us lotion. Hair was matted. Yeah. Do they put you in the shoe at Oklahoma, too? No, which was good.

They took me out of the shoe. I was able to use. And then when you're transferred, you have all your minutes. And then your minutes restart. So I got to burn all of those minutes in Oklahoma, talk to people I hadn't talked to in a long time. And then about a week later, I got transferred to Philly. I ended up some girl knew how to break.

She ended up braiding my hair. You kind of like, I kind of got a little break. Were you able to see your baby when you were in Danbury? I did for a little while. But I ended up getting in trouble in Danbury. So they ended up taking away my visits a lot. So I didn't get a lot of visits in Danbury. I didn't get any visits on Philly.

Do you regret, I guess, getting in trouble in prison to make your experience harder? I don't have regrets. I think I was, I think I needed to see it. I needed to experience it. I love the person I am today. And so would I be her if I didn't have all of those atrocities? Maybe not.

How was Philly for you? Philly was strict. Philly was like MDC, but we were with cadre's so we could go off the unit and work. So I was doing maintenance. except my boss, who was an officer, he didn't come and get me often, so I was just stuck on the unit. That's when I fell in love with fitness. I started working out a lot. And then I learned to knit.

I also, I knew how to crochet before that, but then I started learning how to knit. I found a group of people who were positive. That's when my mindset started to change. I'd gotten tired of being in trouble. When I first came to prison, I was like, well, when I get out, I'm getting some credit cards. My mindset was still the same. But I think it was Philly. It forced me to see myself.

I had a good group of women who I fellowshiped with. And we minded our business. We knit. We talked. I even ended up teaching a knitting class or crochet class. I asked for permission from the case managers. And they gave me the yarn. I got started.

So my behavior started to stabilize at that point. What did you learn about yourself? during that time there? That I was so much bigger than my circumstances, that I was a leader, that I had a lot of influence, that I had to be careful about what I did and what I said because there were people who were going to follow behind me. I learned my talent.

I saw my strength with working out. I pushed myself to the limit. I faced myself. I read a lot. I just saw the beauty of myself for the first time. Did you go home from there from Philly? No. I got in trouble.

I thought you were on the up and up in there. I don't want to go into this part, but I ended up having another fight because they got to get the book. I can't give too much of the book. But I ended up going back to the shoe. But this person assaulted me first. So as much as I tried to stay out of trouble, trouble found me that time. But I think it was also God's plan because I ended up in MDC, Brooklyn where I got to. visits. You know, I was trying to get a transfer the whole time. You know, you got to wait 18 months to

get a transfer for good behavior. So I was trying. And then I have this incident and boom, I'm back in Brooklyn. So I don't regret that. And you finish your time in Brooklyn? I finished my time in Brooklyn. How long do you end up doing on nearly five years? Yeah, because I lost nearly all my good time. Oh, so you did pretty much five years altogether. It probably helped us switch up the spots, right? Yeah, it broke it up. That helped me. Yeah.

I couldn't imagine doing, say, five years in just one spot. Yeah. Maybe Danbury, because Danbury had a, it's a big compound. We had a lot going on. But somewhere like Philly, that's hard time. I don't even think a place like Philly or MDC should have cadres. Mental health-wise, that's not healthy for any person. Yeah, it's miserable.

Extremely. What was your plan coming out of prison? I don't have one. Unfortunately. And that's, if I were to say, talk to someone who's incarcerated right now, I would say you need a plan because I was so eager to get out. I just felt like I'm talented. I'm going to get this right. I'm not coming back to prison.

So it's going to be all good until it was hard. It was really hard. What happened? Well, with what? When you get out of prison, what was your path? I got into, so let's put it this way, my best friend who weren't friends anymore, she betrayed me deeply. And I was going back to stay with, in her complex, with my in-laws, which was not a good thing. I was super impulsive.

I had a problem putting my hands on people. I put my hands on her. I was on the ankle monitor on home confinement. In fact, it was actually a repast that I went and dragged her out of because of what she'd done to me while I was in there. And the fact that I'd taken this time because of how much I loved her, and it was just a reoccurring theme. You know, she said things, I think she wrote me a letter. It was not apologetic. And she just said things to me that made me see, like, I was really in this by myself.

She didn't take care of the children like I thought she would. but, you know, she did some stuff, but I wasn't in my right mind, yeah. I was not considering the decisions I was making still. I was still bump in my head until, you know, I started drinking, which I wasn't a drinker before that. And then I found myself in a state where I got jumped by her and her family. and I found myself laid out on a concrete, drunk, knocked out. It changed my life.

I said to myself, I will never put myself in a situation like this again. And at that moment, something happened to me. I just got this momentum. I started working on myself. I got deep in my spirituality. I did everything I could do to improve my mindset. I studied everything from social media. You know, that was an Instagram and thing.

That wasn't out when I was pre-incarceration, as I was saying to you off-camera. It's like two lives. Pre-incarceration, post-incarceration. And I did programs, personal development programs. YouTube University became a thing. I listened to podcasts. I just, I healed my own mind, intentionally. And I started to see what was around me

Because before that, I wasn't aware of how low I'd gone, you know? And eventually, at first I was like, I don't want to have to do anything. Like, I don't deal with people in prison. Prison people, ugh. People would see me that were incarcerated with me. And they'd be like, TIF!

And I'd be like, you weren't incarcerated with me? They're like, girl, are you crazy? I lived on a... unit with you. I'm like, not me. So I went through a period of shame. There's a stigma when you're formally incarcerated, you know, as an ex-offender, a person, I'm the first person in my family to be incarcerated. And I had to live with that and learned to rebrand myself to, first, before being accepted by people, I had to accept myself. And then I realized how well I worked with people and motivating people.

I was life coaching. People's lives were changing. And the same stuff that I'd learned and taught myself, I realized I had the power to teach others. And then it almost happened naturally where I had a business where I was doing sales. It was an accessory business. At one point, I had shared a store with someone.

It was doing really good. I was making good money, but I didn't feel. feel fulfilled. And I realized my customers were buying for me to talk to me. It wasn't because, because when I wasn't there, my sales were dropped. So I'm like, they're not buying the items. They're buying me. Then I started talking to people who were formerly incarcerated, and they were listening to me and coming back for more advice and more support. And then someone that I knew worked at an organization, the Fortune Society. I had been, when I came out of prison,

I went to the Fortune Society to help me get a job. So I was very familiar with the organization. So I was first hired to be a facilitator on Rikers Island. Now, I'd facilitated with other organizations. I'd done contracted work, but never full time. This particular time, I went into the prisons and it's almost like it was what I just knew it was what I was supposed to be doing, dealing with this population of people. And so I became obsessed with learning as much as I could learn. Policy-wise, research-wise, program-wise.

I took several cohorts. And I really began to see a lot of the gaps with people who. become incarcerated, some of the challenges that they have, how to properly address those challenges and creating programs, workforce development programs, right now oversee programs for women. And there's probably nothing that I would much rather do. It makes sense now, you know, everything that I had went through. Some of the things that the women come to me and talk to me about, I can't really relate to because I didn't have a parent on drugs.

I wasn't on drugs, you know. But the incarceration piece, the juvenile part, the having a baby in prison, even me losing my children. I lost my children to the child welfare system when I came home. It took me two years to get them back. So I navigated the family court system and how unfair they can be and how they treat mothers particularly. And suddenly I was equipped.

that lived experience that I was so ashamed of and so embarrassed about suddenly was value. And then I haven't looked back since. I no longer carry fear. I no longer carry shame. I no longer care what people think because I understand that this is purpose-driven work. And I'm sure you can relate to that as well. So, yeah. Where are you at today?

How are you doing? Oh, I'm doing well. I'm doing well. I wear so many hats. I work with so many different organizations. I'm an author. I was also in a film. It's called Preschool to Prison,

where we highlight the injustices of the educational systems and how people are actually funneled into the prison system. we want to end me last year, so that was good. I'm a chair of a board, O-CFS, where we provide oversight for the facilities that youth are placed in. Unfortunately, the facility I was in is not open, but it's still a honor to be able to serve in that capacity as a person who has experienced myself. I'm a consultant. I do a lot of facilitating, a lot of program creating, and I just have a special lens when it comes to working with people who have been impacted by the criminal legal system, particularly women. And I just, I don't even know where God is going to take me, but I'm very proud of how I'm doing today.

What would you tell your younger self if you could sit across from her today? If I could sit across from my younger self, I would have hug her. I would tell her you have amazing talent. You are absolutely beautiful. You've made choices based on your circumstances and the information that you have. And the more information that you have and you get, you will make even better choices.

The sky is the limit. There's nothing off limits for you. You just have to believe. Well, T.J., thank you so much for coming on the show today. This was an wonderful episode. Thank you so much, Ian. I really appreciate you having me. Of course, we appreciate you.