Locked In with Ian Bick - I Ran New York’s Prison System | Norman Seabrook

Episode Date: October 6, 2024

Norman Seabrook, the ex-New York Corrections Union Boss, reveals untold stories of life behind bars, from eye-opening encounters with celebrity inmates like Diddy, Lil Wayne, and Shyne, to the daily chaos of violence and corruption within one of America’s most notorious jails. But that’s not all – Seabrook himself faced a dramatic downfall, taken down by the FBI in a corruption scandal that led to his own time in federal prison. #Diddy #RikersIsland #NormanSeabrook #PrisonStories #LilWayne #Shyne #CelebrityInmates #TrueCrime #FBIInvestigation #LifeBehindBars #FederalPrison #UntoldStories #InsiderLook Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Norman Seabrook: https://www.instagram.com/normseabrook/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Life Inside New York City Jails: An Officer's Perspective 00:05:59 Journey to Becoming a Union Boss 00:11:44 Overcoming Economic Setbacks and Mindset Shifts 00:18:10 The Importance of Maintaining Relationships During Incarceration 00:23:12 Diddy, Shyne & Lil Wayne in Jail 00:28:30 Addressing Unnecessary Use of Force in Prisons 00:34:18 Preventing Arrest 00:40:06 The Dangers of Cell Phones in Prisons 00:45:52 Importance of Community Communication 00:51:21 Prison System Issues and Contraband 00:57:01 Sentence Reduction and Miraculous Release 01:03:26 The Importance of Family Support and Faith 01:08:49 Overcoming Stigma: Redemption and Opportunities 01:14:33 The Fight for Correction Officers' Rights and Benefits 01:20:14 Embracing Change and Self-Reinvention 01:25:25 The Incarceration System and Reentry Challenges Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Norman, welcome to Lockton, man. This has been a few weeks in the making. You reached out to me. Was it you or someone else that reached out? I don't recall exactly, but I know we did make contact. Yeah. And here we are. We hopped on a phone call.

Absolutely. We had a good talk. And I mean, your story, man, is just, it's a very unique perspective. And I really appreciate you trusting me to share it today with my platform. Well, I think that it's important that people get to really get. a real snapshot from both sides, both perspectives, of what jails, prisons, can be like. And sometimes it can be very stressful. And it depends on how you make it happen for you. For example, I started my career in 1985 as a New York City correction officer. And I worked in the Robert N. Davern

correction facility, which was known as C-74 back in the days. And working back in ARDC and C-74, you get a perspective. Everyone there was an adolescent. And working with adolescents, they had a lot of testosterone. So it was fights every single day. Every time you turned around, the alarm was going off. And they were fighting each other and stabbing each other and slashing each other. And you had to, as a 25-year-old correction officer, you had to allow yourself to sort of try to understand you're dealing with kids.

And in dealing with kids, it gets rough. And there has been some really rough situations in C-74. I remember one specific incident, and there were quite a few of them, but one was the reason why they took baby oil out of the jails. like in C-74, was because under the consent decrees, under the minimum standards, you had to allow an inmate to have hot coffee or hot tea or hot oatmeal. So the water that was provided through a machine was 190 degrees. And they took this 190-degree water and poured it in a bucket. And they poured baby oil in the bucket so that when they doused this inmate,

this particular inmate, with this hot, scalling water and baby oil, it just peeled his skin right off because of the heat and the oil sticking to his body. You know, you see so many things, and a lot of the kids that are incarcerated back then and now need help, need guidance. The place is filthy. Jails, don't let anybody tell you that jails are the cleanest thing because they're, They're not. They're filthy. There's pets all over the place.

Rats, roaches, mice. It's horrible. And the conditions don't seem to be getting any better because for some reason it's out of sight, out of mind. So as a correction officer in my first years of my career, you had to deal with those type of things. You had to deal with violent inmates, inmates stabbing and slashing each other. They had what we call laundry buckets. They were made of heavy-duty plastic. And the inmates was so creative is that he took the top layer of the bucket that was the lid.

And he back in those days, you were allowed to smoke in jails. So he took and he made holes into the top of the bucket and he made a shield, literally a shield, like a bulletproof shield, if you will. and he took two what they called bangers, ice picks. And he made a weapon, he made both weapons, and he went out into the corridor because, you know, it was like movement, free movement. He went out into the corridor, and he pulled out these weapons,

and they began to stab and slash and stab each other. But each time they stabbed at this one kid, it wouldn't penetrate because he had this shield built around his chest and his back. And these were kids, acting like warriors. And that's why they gave it the nickname Gladiator School.

That's how that part of that name came up. But there was all kind of things, man, that I've seen as a correction officer. I've seen where, you know, inmates would fight officers. And I've seen where officers would use excessive force on inmates because I'm not going to sit here and bullshit you and tell you, oh, officers are the best things in the world because that's not necessarily true.

but it's unfortunate when you're in that type of situation when you have 10, 5, 6, 7 officers beating on one guy. You don't do that. That's just not right. But then you don't have the same respect for an individual. And compassion goes a long way. It's difficult sometimes. But, you know, for the most part,

that part of the life of a New York City correction officer just starting out is a traumatizing. life for women, for men. A lot of correction officers don't get the help that they need. A lot of inmates don't get the help that they need. And those that are in the administrative positions in the city of New York or the state of New York, for that matter, they don't want to see what it is that needs to be done because everybody wants to have the best idea. And if you have 10 people in the room with 10 different opinions, you're never going to get anything done. So you have to be able to be creative and think outside the box, help the officer, help the inmate, help their

families, because it's a lot. And then I rose and I kept rising. And 10 years later, I became a union boss for correction officers. And I represented my men and women and their families and the community. And I still participate in representing them, their families and or the community, because I think it's important. I think that when you, reach a certain level in your life, God will sit you down. And God sat me down. God sat me down for 22 months in federal prison. And he gave me a new perspective. Everything else wasn't working. It wasn't working, man. I mean, you surround yourself with certain people. Those people didn't knock on your door and make sure the lights were on in your house. Those people didn't do anything

for you, but when you got out, hey, good to see you, how you feel. Time out. I respect you. I love you. But at the end of the day, let's be honest with each other. You really didn't care that much about me to say, let me help you. So you have to be able to learn something. So God will sit you down and he'll remove all of those people in your life that meant nothing to you. There's a video that I I really, really love. And it's prime time. And prime time sits there and he says, what about me would make you think

that I care what you think about me? God made me. God did this. God restored me. I've been that guy. I've been that guy. I made those things happen for you and your family that and the city of New York

that would never ever have happened. Heart bill, three-quarter bill, variable supplement bill, anti-privatization bill, I could go on and on and on. You have to take step back because your direction ultimately becomes your destination.

You have to change. So whatever you were doing before that got you where you were or were not supposed to be, you've got to figure it out and say, oh, I don't need to live like this. Because that ain't working. Those same people, that's not working.

That's not working. The same thing with life with these kids, with these jails. These places are filthy. They can get, they can, you can be in a room and get sick. And you don't see nothing flying around. But then they have, they have mold. They have all these other things. I was talking to a friend of mine, and we were talking about his company.

and we were talking about chirogenic cleaning. And I'm like, what is chirogenic cleaning? It's dry ice. It's dry ice that removes mold and all this other stuff because you watch people clean up. And it's the same water that they came off the wall with it. They're mopping the floor with, and it's the same germs that are staying there.

We've got to change the way we do things. The mess halls, horrible. I was in federal prison. They're horrible, man. horrible. But you know what? I worked in the kitchen. That was your job? Yeah, actually I started out. I was a substitute teacher and I helped four brothers get their GEDs, which I'm very proud to say. And then one of the officers saw me and said, oh, you only work part-time. You need another job. I said, look, whatever you want me to do. I'm here to do whatever. Whatever I'm told to do, I'm here to do. And they put me in the mess.

And I started cleaning floors. Then I started washing. No, I never did wash dishes, cleaning floors and helping the cook prep. And the cook and the officer got into some beef. And the officer said to me, can you cook? And I said, I come from the South Bronx. I'm born and raised in the South Bronx. Five more brothers, two sisters, on welfare, food stamps.

No father at home. Can I cook? Of course I can cook. My mother taught us to cook. So I ended up working my way up to being the head cook. Best job in a federal prison. It absolutely is. You're the man.

You're the man. When you're the cook, you're the man. Because, you know, this one wants six extra hamburgers. This one won five burgers. So, you know, they get the pack of cigarettes later on or this, that later on. Don't let nobody tell you that. You, look, I'm not giving away secrets. But at the end of the day, we all know how it is.

you know, but you have to be able to change. You have to be able to get a new perspective. I have a new perspective on life. I love my life. I love my wife, my children, my grandchildren. It's such a joy and such a pleasure to be able to really appreciate life. And I appreciate life. And it's unfortunate that some people come out of prison

and they keep talking about when they were, when they were, when they were. Stop talking about where you was. Let's talk about where you're going. Let's talk about how you're going to get there. Let's talk about putting people in your life that's positive. Because obviously the people that you were hanging out with before, you're still hanging out with again. And you see where it got you before.

It can only get you there again. So at the end of the day, you've got to change certain things. Got to step up your game. That's just my thoughts. Well, I think so many people come out of prison with way less than what they had before. So that's why they're thinking in the past. Like if you're a drug kingpin that's making hundreds of thousands of dollars and you come out of prison, you have to go work a normal job, they have that mindset

and it's tough. I don't, I beg to differ with that. Your mind has to be stronger than that, though. You have to be built a certain way to be able to do that. Not everyone can do it. Not everyone can do it, but you have to be able to do that. You have to be able to allow yourself to change the narrative. You have to be able to allow yourself to think outside the box.

I understand. You used to making $300,000, $400,000 a year. Look, at the end of the day, I had a great job. Union president, making good money, you know, traveled, did a lot of things, man. But at the end of the day, let me, I have to ask myself a question.

What did it cost me? What did that cost me for being around people that were disingenuous? that made up stories. What did that cost me? It cost me a lot of my lifetime. It cost me 22 months of my life. But it's not a loss.

It's a learning. It's a learning of what I got out of that. It gives me the opportunity to actually see things for what they really are. When you change the way you look at things, things you look at will begin to change. You get to see. and feel things differently.

I feel my grandchildren. I feel my wife. I feel my life. I go to church on Sundays. I hang out in the community. I do what I'm supposed to do. Don't get me wrong. I still have a cocktail with you.

All right? I don't smoke cigars anymore because my granddaughter made me give them up. But at the end of the day, I'll have a drink with you. And we'll shoot the shit all day long. But my perspective and my priorities are different. I don't have to do that anymore because I'm in control of my own narrative. And that's what some people don't know how to do.

And it's unfortunate. But together we can do it together. All we have to do is trust God and say, okay, I already know what this got me. Switching over to this side, I got nothing to lose and everything to gain. I got nothing to lose. I could always go back to the other side, but I got nothing to lose for going forward.

And to me, you're a brilliant brother. You're doing your thing because you're not looking backwards. You remember it, but you're not living it. Do you understand? There's a big difference in remembering what you went through. It's a big difference in knowing what you went through,

but it's a huge difference and being able to control yourself going forward to the next level. So that's why I'm blessed. Brother, I could tell you things, man, that would absolutely blow your mind, okay, about faith, about God, about trust. These things you can't make up. You can't make those things up. I'm not sitting here because you did it.

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I agree at 10,000 percent on the mindset aspect. I just think that maybe the same. system is not helping guys coming out of prison develop that mindset while they're in there. Like, I got to where I'm at, you got to where you're at because we have that mindset, but not everyone has that. And the question is, how do we fix that? I think you fix that by first understanding that when an individual gets arrested, convicted, and incarcerated, the very first time they walk into a facility sets the tone, the very first time. very first time. And what do I mean by set the tone? If you take a person and you throw them into a

filthy, dirty environment, that's how they're going to remember this from forever. And you go into a jail, they put you in a cell. The cell is dirty. It's nasty. There's roaches. There's rats. Everything's going on. So that's a negative already. Then you go to the, or the officer comes by and say to the officer, I want to clean my cell, the officer goes, F you, he keeps going or she keeps going. So now you're pissed off that you're in this place. You're pissed off that your place looks like this. And you pissed off that the officer disrespected you. So now it's like you got this beef going already.

And I think in order to change that, you've got to start in the beginning. First you start by cleaning the place up. then you start by allowing the individual to have a type of program that allows them to interact with their family because that is the worst when you can't talk to your loved ones and you're locked away and you get five minutes on the phone and you really can't have a conversation and it's clicking in and out it's depressing it's distressing so you have to be able to allow them to have some type of communication i don't get every day it doesn't matter you can't build a person up when you're tearing them down. If you don't allow this person to have communication, they don't know what's going on. So their mind starts to play tricks on them.

And if their mind is playing tricks on them, they're going to take it out on you because you're going to, the officer or another inmate, it's going to say something that is just going to trigger them. So you allow this type of relationship, rather it be video phone, whether it be telephone, rather it be visits. Like for Rikers Island, for example, they have visits. between certain hours. Look, some people can't get off work

to get there at that time. If the person can't get there until three o'clock in the morning, then you set visits for three o'clock in the morning for that person. You try to get them to have that relationship so that when they do come out, they have some type of support.

If you don't do that, you're creating an animal because you're locking them away. You're not letting them communicate. You're telling them what to do the place is filthy. Everything is striking against you right now. You're not giving them the mental health that they need. You're not giving them the medication that they need. So you have to be able to start, I wouldn't say reinvent the will. You have to create all the injustices that occur.

Punitive segregation is not for everybody. Jail is not for everybody. Incarceration is not for everybody. But at the end of the day, when you think about it, there are some people you just won't let go out of jail. I get that. The Jeffrey Dahmers of the world? No, he can't come out. Okay. But the little guy or the little lady or whoever did that, did something, their first offense or whatever the case may be, you throw the book at them. They're trapped off for the rest of their life or whatever it is. Everybody don't deserve to have life. I don't know. I'm not looking at their cases. But what I do know is that communication is the biggest part of incarceration. Because if you have that support, you're going to be able to go forward because there's the communication of what are you going to do when you get out of here?

How are you going to reassess your life? How are you going to move forward with your life? Who am I going to start to hook up with that's going to be able to be helpful in my life? Do I have to move from the community that I'm in in order so that I can do better? There's so many variables that go with that. But it has to start with communication. And there is no communication. There is no compassion.

There is do as I say and not as I do in the system. I've been on both sides of the system. I've seen officers that some would say are rednecks or racist or whatever. You know, they never said nothing to me. I've never been personally involved in that. But, you know, you could see the reaction. And then people look to snatch different titles, you know. I mean, you've got the gangs in the jails.

You've got the crypts. You've got the bloods. got the Nietas, the kings, you got them all. The tentatarians, you got them all. And they're separated. You got Baltimore versus Washington versus New York versus Chicago. You got all kind of things going on. And that's all because of communication. You got the white TV room, the black TV room. You got the Hispanics that sit in the white room because their separate TV has a plug that you can listen to the Latin station. And I mean, come on, I walked in every one of the rooms. You know, no, you know. Now,

But I have a different mindset. I'm a man. I'm not letting myself be influenced by the kids on the street. It's no secret why a lot of these youngsters on the street do what they do. It's no secret. They don't have a job. There's nothing else for them to do. Give them something to do.

Give them something constructive to do. Give them a job. Okay, you want to shoot each other? okay, go to the Army. You could go overseas and shoot as many enemies as you want. They're not even going to stop you. They may even give you a ribbon for it. But at the end of

the day, we got to stop killing each other. Every time you look around, this one killed this one, this one blew up a school, this one shot up a school. There's something wrong here. We're not talking to each other. We're talking at each other. And I think that's just my

opinion, it's all spiritual warfare. It's a spiritual warfare going on, you know. But I'm focused on what I have to do. I'm focused on being able to be thankful for what I've received. I've seen the guys in the jail. I've seen the shine when shine was locked up. I remember a story, You heard this true story. I get a phone call one day, and someone on the other end of the line says to me, Norm, could you do me a favor? So what's that? See, do me a favor, big favor.

Puffy wants to visit Shine. And can you make this happen for me? I said, I got it. Not a problem. So I did what I was supposed to do. And Puff got in my vehicle. We went across the bridge to Rikers. went into the facility called NIC, North Infirmary Command.

Okay, we go inside, go into a visit room. They call it a visit room where the lawyers visit you at. Shine comes in. And this is right around the Jennifer Lopez, this is, this is, this is, this is it. And they begin to speak, they begin to talk. And all of a sudden, Shine gets up. and he's standing up and he's going back and forth

in this small little squared off office area and you can see him through the glass because we weren't inside with him you see him through the glass and he looked like a cage animal that wanted to kill someone so then Puff looks over

and he does one of these he looks over and that's a signal like yo get me out of here so we take him out of there and you know you see people in my profession little Wayne

all right when he got jammed up his people Stacy and asked that you know you go check on him make sure he's okay I walk into the cell I remember that day they open up the cell Little Wayne is sitting on the bed

and he looks up at me and he says to me are you the warden I said no I'm not the warden he says I says I'm Norman Seabrook he says to me I said You don't have to stay down. You're going to be all right.

This area, you're going to stay right here in this area. You know, ain't nobody here to mess with you. Nothing like that. You're going to be, all right. That was the protective custody area, of course. But he held his own. He held his own, you know. And you see these guys.

DMX, you know, you see these guys. You speak to these guys. You interact with these guys. But you treat these guys fairly. I remember a day, man, where a female correction officer was about to be molested by an inmate. And the way that the doors are set up, the way that the security system is set up,

you come through one door, it closes, you come through the other door, it locks, and then that person has to let you into the left side or the right side. But he attacked her before she could open up the door. And I remember a Spanish inmate, little borink for our brother, him and another inmate,

they squeezed through the whole, hole in the glass that you received your mail from or the newspaper from, they squeezed through and opened the gate so that the officers, other officers could come in and help her. And I remember that morning going down to their housing area. And I said, what bed is so-and-so in? He told me it's over there. Go over there, kick the bed bunk. You know, my man, my man, my man, my, man.

Wake up. And say, yeah, yeah, see, I said, listen, I just want to thank you for what you did. for the officer. Can't give you much, but here's a New York bacon, egg and cheese sandwich with an orange juice. And it was my way of saying thank you to them. I mean, they didn't have to do that. So I've seen both sides of this. As we're leaving, I remember distinctly a young inmate. Don't know whether he was white or black, but he was banging on the door, the mental health side of the housing area. He's banging on the door, kicking the door, kicking the door and I'm walking with the warden and someone else, someone else is walking with me and two or

three other people. And I go to stop. I said, what's going on with him? And he said, the commanding officer said, no, I don't worry about it. Come on, let's go, let's go. I said, no, no, let's not go. What's wrong with him? You know, what's wrong with this inmate? And I said, open the door. So they opened the door. My officer is sitting all the way on the other side of the room. And this roommate is going nuts. And I said, What's wrong? He said, they don't have no commissary in the jail. We can't get this. We can't get that. We can't get this. And you guys walking around here and don't want to talk about me. I said, hold on. What do you need? He said, we can't even get cup of soup. They would get that in commissary. I said, okay, I'll get you some. So I make phone call. I said, in the commissary, the biggest jail on Rikers Island, AMKC, they didn't have commissary in the place. I said, that's a sure way of starting a riot. Where you don't even have food to give these guys. You take away their commisers. they visits their phone. You're going to have a problem.

So I make a phone call to another facility. I said, do me a favor, send me a case of cup of soup if you have some in your commissary. So they send it over. And one of my guys said to me, well, what did you do that for? I said, because if I don't help this guy, I got to come back here two or three hours from now.

He said, well, why do you got to come back here? I said, because he could be kicking the shit out of the officer in the corner over there because he's so bent up and bent out of shape. And that's not necessary. So we could stop this now. And the things that I've seen, standing in the hallway one day, I'll never forget, man, I'm standing there. I'm walking down the hallway and there's an inmate banging on the clinic door in AMKC.

And he's saying, I got to see mental health, I got to see mental health, I got to see mental health. And the captain on the other side of the glass, you're not seeing nobody today. go back to your housing area. Now, there's two officers on post out there. So he says, the officer says to the email, come on, you got to go. He says, no, I got to see mental health. And the other inmate begins to put on, getting ready, put on their gloves and get ready to move this. I said, hold on, hold on, hold on.

I said, what's the problem? The inmate wants to see mental health. Listen, let me do this. I'm going to take you down to the intake area. You hang out there. I'll get the captain or the depth to come down. You're going to see mental health. So I took him over there, did what I had to do.

And I said to the two officers, this is probably going to end up being an unnecessary use of force. He has the right to see the doctor, man. Something's wrong with the dude. So why were we going to put ourselves in a room where we have to write a report as to what happened? And if you do something or you do something, now I got to help lie for you for your shit. This is crazy. Something's wrong. And when you have someone that wants to be helpful, some people don't want you to be helpful, brother.

Some people want to move you out the way because you're a threat to them. At the end of the day, I'm blessed. I pray that every single person that gets out of jail gets the opportunity to reinvent themselves and do something productive and positive, not only for themselves but for their family, for their community. Listen, there's nothing wrong What's saying, hey, listen, I respect God I mean, if you go to a show And a superstar walked on the stage

You'd probably stand up and give them a standing ovation If your favorite team won the Super Bowl Or the World Series, you'd give them a round of applause If God walked in the room, you'd probably put your head down some people. Got to pick your head up. Gotta be positive. You got to make it work because it does work.

I remember going to a church a few weeks ago. And I said, I want to thank those that prayed for me. And I want to thank those that didn't pray for me. Because now you know prayer works. And people looked at me like, wow. but you've got to feel good about yourself, brother. And jails, I remember, listen, it's rough. I remember correction officers brought a gun into the jail

and gave it to an inmate. Inmate shot the officer, what the little officer, he got shot in the foot. He was part of the whole conspiracy. You know, and they came, they arrested him. I got no love for a guy that jeopardizes the safety and security of not only the inmates, but the officers as well.

the civilians. But a lot of these officers are the ones bringing in contraband. I'm not going to disagree with that. I am not going to disagree that a lot of the things that are happening in the system are happening because of

officers contributing to that or civilians. I'm not going to say that because certainly we both know if you're in syncing and you can't get out, how did you get a cell phone? How did that happen? I'm not disagreeing with that. There's a way of correcting those things as well. You see, for example,

I don't, me personally, I don't think that an officer should stay on a post more than two weeks because you begin to get complacent. You begin to get too comfortable. You got to keep moving them because then all you have is your rules and regulations, policy, and procedure. But if I'm with you every day for nine years, you begin to think you're my friend. or some shit. You know, and we're not friends. I'm here to do a job. So, yes, there are some officers that definitely do what they're not supposed to do.

And it's unfortunate, I've never, never, never believed in an officer promoting prison contraband. Now, some will say, well, you defended them. Under the law, I have a right to defend their rights. Those are their rights, you know, just like you would want your rights defended. You know, my personal belief has nothing to do with it. It's rather or not what's right and what's wrong. and that's unfortunate

but that's just the way that it is some correction officers are wrong some police officers are wrong and at the end of the day I don't think it's I think it's important that you stop your brother or sister officer from doing something wrong because you're going to get involved in this it's going to happen

it's going to have a domino effect because if five of us beat this inmate four of us got to write something to go along with your shit so you're putting your family, livelihood on the line

to do that. It's just like with the inmates. You got seven inmates in the housing area. One gets stabbed up real best. Six other inmates are going to lie and say, yo, whatever it's going to be. So you're putting everybody in a box.

Sometimes you've got to think outside the box. You've got to worry about you. If we worry about so much of what Joe doing or Bobby's doing, worry about what you're doing. If you spent this much time worrying about you as you worry about everybody else, you'd probably be okay. But no, we want to focus on other things. And it's unfortunate. You know, I have sympathy and compassion for the loved ones that are not incarcerated of what they have to go through.

Their mental stress, their anxiety of what's happening to their family member behind that wall, behind that gate in that cell block. I've had officers be involved in situations where they lost their lives. They lost their lives. Some committed suicide. Some got shot because they thought someone was having a relationship with it's crazy. And I responded to those things 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I took care of my brother and sister officers.

But if an inmate got jammed up, I was there to look after that too. I remember when a female, I'll never forget this day, there was a young black female. And she was visiting an inmate at R&C. And she went through a search procedure and they found weed on her. And in finding this weed on her, I remember they called the chief and they wanted to have her arrested. And I happened to be God as my witness. I happen to be going out of the facility or coming in. And where they had her at, I had to pass the doorway.

And I walk in and this young girl, she must have been 17. She's sitting in the chair and she's bawling. She's crying. I said, what's going on in here? New officer said she got caught with we, you know, Chief So-and-So said arrest her. I said, hold on, hold on, hold on. We're not arresting this kid. that shit's not going to happen.

And they look, oh, well, the chiefs, I said, I don't care what he said. This 17-year-old girl were not ruining her life because some guy on the other end of the phone convinced her to bring some drugs in for her. She got trapped off. His ass is already in here. And you're going to jam her up? I said, you're not locking her up. And I meant that. And she didn't get locked up.

She was supposed to be in school. I said, listen, you want to call her mother and father. That's cool. I'm all right with that. and this kid in jail. Not today. Not today, God is my witness, not today. And I don't know where that child is now.

And I don't know whether she changed or she didn't. But she got a shot that day. So everybody deserves to get a shot. The inmate that's already locked up, he didn't give a shit. He didn't care. What would he care? But you know what? It's funny.

When that inmate gets out, what's he going to do with his life? Where is he going to go? We got more problems with migrants coming here to the United States. I have no problem with someone coming into the United States. But according to the law, come the way it's just supposed to come. But all of these groups get all of these handouts, government subsidies. We got veterans. We got former inmates that can't get a job.

And you're giving these people five-star hotels. cell phones, bank accounts. And we got guys that want to do the right thing, but you're not doing anything to be helpful to them. The system, there's something wrong with the system, and it has to be overhauled. And in order to overhaul the system, you have to have people that's been in the system

that know the system to be able to correct the system. That's just my opinion. So when you represent these officers that bring in contraband, what's like a reoccurring theme you're seeing in every case? Is it for money? Is it because they were threatened? Like, how do we stop it? I think that, and that's what I said about moving them every two weeks.

I think there's a lot of intimidation. I think there's a lot of fear of being assaulted. I think there's a lot of fear of knowing them from the streets, so we say. And there's a duty of, I've got to stand up for my peeps. I think that a big part of it is wanting to be accepted by a certain group or certain culture. And I think that that's a problem because it doesn't get you anywhere.

It doesn't get you where you need to be. I think that part of it could be money for some people. I don't know. But certainly I do know that we have to be able to correct it by shifting. And what do I mean by shifting again? If you work in a certain area and you have a certain inmate, I'll use, take whatever celebrity you want to use.

Whoever, Joe Blow. Joe Blow is incarcerated. And Joe Blow is here three years. And you've been working in that area with Joe Blow for three years. you get to learn things about each other. You get to overhear conversations. And you think that you start to develop a relationship. When you develop this relationship,

you think that it's a real relationship. One of you are getting played. One of you are going to get played, guaranteed. Which one is it? Is the inmate playing you to make you think that, oh, you my man, you bring this in for me, starts with a soda, starts with a sandwiches, It starts with this.

The next thing you know it's a cell phone. Next thing you know it's drugs. There's a whole lot of variables that go. There should not be correction officers, police officers, or anyone else doing that or civilians. But it's done. There should not be that type of environment because it doesn't help. So they have to be able to correct the security procedures as well. and that would prevent a lot of it as well.

But we don't have people that sit in the chair willing to allow change to take place because it's been out of sight, out of mind. Don't fix it. But it's broken, but don't fix it. Yeah, I mean, my issue with it from my perspective, because I went to federal prison at a young age, you know, I got in trouble, got caught, got sentenced, whatever. But my issue is that when I get there, prison becomes dangerous, for me because of the cell phones, because gangs are able to operate with them, because they're

able to get weapons in. That's not a fair system in that regard. You know, once you're in prison, so these judges are sentencing inmates for, say, a nonviolent offense and setting them up to potentially get hurt. And that's where it also has to change. The classification has to change. A guy like yourself or myself, we don't need to be around. guys that committed murder and they have all of the trinkets, if you will, in the system, access to everything. That's unfortunate. And in order for that to change, you have to be able to have staffing levels at a certain level. You have to, like I said, be able to have individuals that know the system to be able to work in the system to correct the system.

a guy like yourself that are now exposed to all of this potential violence that can occur because of these things, you are not protected, but you don't have anybody to really communicate with either because your communication has been shut off to 300 minutes a month. Your communication is shut off to seven minutes a day, every day, you know, for 30 days or whatever the case may be. and you still have to talk to your attorney and everything else. And now you're trying to bond with someone that may understand you or you understand them. And you're now into little groups. You come from here.

You come from here. You come from here. So now you've separated again. So not only have you taken away my communication, but you've separated me not to be able to communicate with anyone besides who I'm from the same city with. And now you've also on top of that don't want to give me the resources that I need so that I can do better. So it's a broken system. And the system has to be overhauled from top to bottom, not from bottom to top, from top to bottom because it comes from the top.

And if you have an individual that's from the top that's not willing to take the responsibility and make the changes that are necessary, you're going to have a problem. Change is scary to a lot of people. Some people don't want to change. They're comfortable. But that's the whole problem in our system. You're too comfortable. You think that it's okay. You take it for granted.

Now, how long were you the union boss for before you got into trouble yourself? 20 years. 20 years. 20 years. Now, when we talk about going to trouble and going to federal prison, it's not because you brought contraband or a weapon into prison or anything like that. No. They allege that I took a bribe for making an investment. The Board of Trustees made the investment.

I went to court. The first trial was a hung jury. The second trial I was convicted. But I don't look back on that, you know. I still maintain my innocence, but I don't look back on that. I look forward to say, you know what, okay, a lesson here. A lesson here of the people that I was surrounded by. A lesson here on what I need to do going forward in my life.

I'm not angry. I'm not bitter. I'm blessed. I'm happy I had the opportunity to cleanse myself of the shit that was around me because there were some that were around me. And it wouldn't have done me any good. And it's like I said, it gave me back an opportunity to see my wife for my wife, my children and my grandchildren for who they are.

Not just a partner, my wife, but my wife. Not just my children, those are my children. Those are my girls. Those are my grandchildren. I'm not running 24 hours a day, seven days a week anymore. I feel good. I mean, people sit down and talk to me and ask me different union information, inmate information, all kind of things.

And I'm willing to be helpful to them, you know, And look, I follow you. I love you, brother. You know, I saw your Instagram. I'm like, you know, this guy's on the money here, man. He's doing his thing. That's thinking outside the box, you're blowing up to a place where, you know, are people going to look back and go, you know what?

I remember that guy. Yeah, that was the same guy you didn't want to be bothered with before. Remember that guy? That's where you're at right now. I get a lot of that. Well, that's where you're at, brother. And that's where I'm at that place where I'm sitting here with you. You, man, that's an honor that I'm sitting here with you.

I got Instagram. I'm on my Instagram at Norm Seabrook or my Facebook, Norm Seabrook. I'm there. My guy, Chris, that was supposed to be here, wait until I see him. I'm saying, Chris, you really messed this up, Chris. Yeah. Chris is my man, you know? And I look at this and I go, wow, this is a lesson.

This is what I'm talking about, moving to the next. level. There's levels to life. You can't skip the process. You can try all you want. You can't skip the process or you're destined to start all over again. And that's why you have people that go back and forth to jail because they try to skip the process. If you was a heavy drug deal doing $500,000 a month, whatever you were doing, and you get out and you try to do that again, you fail again. You fail the first time. What makes you think you're going to be successful is second time. I mean, okay, we're not talking about, you know,

keep getting up in your baseball player. We're talking about doing stuff that you ain't supposed to be doing, you know? The streets are not helpful. There's kids burying kids. 17 years old dead, 18 years old dead. This one get a gun, shoot up to school, 12 dead. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

It's communication. We're not talking to our kids. were letting them sit on their phones and the phone is talking to them. It's time for us to talk to each other. You know and I know that there were times we knew everybody in the community

where we came from. Now if there's a person watching this right now that can name 10 people on their street, they win the price because they can't. It's changed drastically.

There's a lot of people that end my apartment building. No one says hello or is friendly. you know, maybe a handful, but you don't get their name or anything. It's a different world. So let me hit you with some. What are you going to do about that?

I guess you'd be kinder, right? Well, when you see people, do you say, hey, I'm so-and-so, I live such and such? Do you do that? I go off of their body language. You can kind of tell if someone's approachable or not, you know, to a certain extent. But I don't go, like, if they're just standing there, I don't, I do have friends that do that. I give them credit. I'm kind of introverted in that aspect.

Okay. Okay. Well, I'm that guy. I'm that guy. If I make eye contact with you, I speak. My mother always taught me that. If I make eye contact with you, I'm going to say something. Hello, how you doing?

What's up? You know, whatever. You know, now in prison, some people just walk around with their head down. They don't want to say nothing to nobody. That's because we've been programmed to believe that that's the way it's supposed to be. You can't grow like that. So maybe that's something I need to work on, you know, and do that and be more social in that aspect. And you can do it.

You are that person. The person that I see right here right now sitting across from me, you are that person, brother. You know, you just got to crack that shell. In order to make an omit, you got to crack the eggshell. You're right. You know, so crack the shell, man. The most that could happen to you is that they ignore you. All right, cool.

You know? But that might be that person, that just might be that person that needed that hello. That might be that person, man, that you just saved their life and you don't even know it. You see, there's so many variables that go along with what you are, who you are, and the potential that you have. You interview people. There's nothing wrong with sitting there going, how you feel today? And someone says to you, you know what?

Man, you don't know what that meant to me. You just asked me that. Not that you may be able to help them or not, but just listening sometimes helps a lot of people. It gives them the opportunity to vent. I mean, when I was in prison, you know, I spoke to everybody. Everybody. Didn't matter who they were. White, black, gay, straight, green, yellow, officer, civilian, didn't matter to me because that's just who I am.

I remember one day, I sent the letter to, uh, uh, I put in a grievance. All right. And they, they, they, they, they sort of like didn't really care for me that much because because me being able to put in grievances and knew the law and stuff like that. So they really didn't, some of them, didn't really care the staff, not the inmates. The staff really didn't because I wasn't stupid. I'm just going to use that. And I remember one day signing a document.

And at the end of documents, when I write a letter to somebody, anyone who knows me will know that I will invoke God somewhere in what I'm speaking about. God bless you. Have a nice day, whatever. And I remember sending something off, and I thought, God bless, have nice holiday, whatever. And one of the supposed to be the counselors gets my letter back and he opens it up and says, oh, why do you always write that? I said, because that's just the way that I believe.

Oh, nobody believes that. Okay. the lady wrote me back and she said God bless you too and he had to open it and I looked at him I said nobody does huh and I got a kick out of it because some people can't handle that man and I want you to know that and your listeners to know that you can handle that you know

and it's about making that change there's somebody in your life man that that's praying for you that really wants you to be successful and Some people are afraid to accept that. I'm not afraid to accept that. It's a challenge. It's a journey.

Every single day is a journey for you, for I, for others. But it's also a lesson that you can do it. If he's allowed you to be here right now, then he's already given you another opportunity. Take the best that you have and put it all into it and just go from there. because at the end of the day, man, you know, all right, so you get out of prison, you get back into the drug game or the number game or whatever game you're going to get into. Remember, that was the game that got you in prison.

So how could that be a good game? I don't think so. And as far as officers are concerned, they need to tighten up. Stop allowing themselves to want to be down all the time. And the inmates, they have to tighten up too. stop allowing yourselves to be divided and killing each other and stabbing each other. You got the same thing. Three squares a day, a cell, a bed, a pillow, and a blanket.

There is nothing else that you're getting. Oh, yeah, there's some that, like you said, get the cell phones and the contraband and all of that in. Yeah. But those officers, they're going to get theirs too. They're going to get theirs. But it's not going to be what they like. I know it's not going to be what they like. I've seen it.

It's not a good feeling to have someone take your freedom from you. That's not a good feeling, man. Do you feel like the charges against you were politically motivated? I don't know. That's, you know, that's up to someone else to think whether or not it's politically motivated or not. I know, let the work that I've done speak for me. I've done a tremendous amount of good for so many thousands, tens of thousands of people, you know. And if I got into a conversation like that,

then everything that I just spoke about before that means nothing. It just, you know, I think that you see, because you were a high up official, you know, in New York, and you see what's going on in the atmosphere right now and they're all claiming politically motivated and this and that. So it just, I'm sure the audience is curious what your thoughts are on that. I think that New York, like any other, other city is a very unique city. I think that you are always going to have those to pass judgment

on you when something happens or you're indicted or arrested or charged or accused. I think that what you have to do is let the process play out, but government has to go on. You have to be able to run the police department, the correction department, the social service department, the fire department, sanitation. You have to do those things. and you have to be able to stay focused on those things. So wherever and whatever situation that comes from this with the city officials and or state officials or whomever is involved in this,

I wish them the best because if there's one thing that I'm not going to do, as I'm not going to dance on somebody else's downfall or as they're going down and help push them down, I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to allow myself to take on those individuals' identity of being selfish and hateful towards other people in what they've accomplished or what they have not accomplished in their life. I would challenge anyone,

look in the mirror at themselves and first judge themselves before they judge others. When you got arrested, were you able to stay in your position? Or were you forced out? No. No. I wasn't forced out. I retired out. I left because I don't think that, I don't think that, it benefited me to try screaming and yelling about certain other things. At the end of the day, it was your word against my word, and that was it, you know, and, you know, look, it happened. Unfortunately, I still maintain my innocence about it, but the process took its place, but it gave me an opportunity to know who God is. So I don't look at it as a loss. I look at it as a loss. at it as a lesson because it gave me a new perspective on my life. And it gave me an opportunity

to be able to reach even deeper inside of me to get from me what he has put in me. Did they do the whole like show of, you know, raiding your house or did they like to turn, they did that? Yeah. Helicopters in the sky and everything else. There are some officials that don't get that. You know, they're not even arrested or handcuffed, you know. They get indicted and everything. But like in my case, they showed up at, you know, crack at dawn. Five o'clock in the morning. Yeah. So they did that to you, even though you were a member of law enforcement. Yes. Yes. And but you know what? You can't be mad at them. I mean, that's procedure. That's the job. You know, there are some people that it's going to happen to and there's some people that's going to

be able to walk in and not have it happen to. But I don't look at it as, well, you didn't do it to him so why you're doing it to me, you know, because that's ping pong. That's back and forth, back and for let's just finish it up, do what you've got to do, and let's move on, and let's learn from everything that goes on in our lives. And you know what? It's like the boats that pulled up at some guy's house in Florida. I forget his name. I think it's in Stone, Stone, Stone.

Oh, Roger Stone. Yeah, Roger Stone had motorboats outside of his house, you know. I mean, you know, Puffy had Homeland Security. You know, I mean, look, at the end of the day, you know, it's whatever they decide to do. I'm not going to judge them for it because if I was a subordinate and was instructed to do something, I'm going to do it too. And you would do the same thing. So look at it as, you know, a lesson as opposed to a loss. And I was in the same shoes as you.

Like what I went through turned out to be the best learning experience ever, whether I agreed with it or not at the time it all played out. Absolutely. Now, something that was interesting about your case is that you're one of the rare cases where your sentence got kicked back. to the court to lower it. Yes, well, look, and that's God. You see, I was scheduled to do 58 months in federal prison. I did 22 months in federal prison. And God brought me home.

I have in my bag, I remember, in this makes sense, strange to some people, but it's the truth. It's the gospel. I dreamt on a certain date that I was going home. A few days later, they released me. That's God, my brother. That's God. I wrote it down. On my 636 day, I wrote that down. And all of all, all I want people to understand is that you have something, there's uniqueness about individuals. I remember a day that I was dreaming. I came from work and I'm laying down in my bunk and I get up, I wake up and always write down your dreams, always write down your dreams, always. And there were testimony. So I get and there's a brother that was across from me

in the other bunk area. Two bunk cell area, but not cells like cubicles in federal prison. And no one on top, just me on the bottom. And I said to him, you know, I had a dream, man. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Sure enough. Sure enough.

An hour later, that's exactly what happened. That's scary to some people. But it's not scary to me. It's not scary to me. Were you at a federal prison camp or a low? Do you think your experience would have been different if you went to a low as someone that came from a law enforcement background? No. No, because of who I am and what I am.

And what do I mean by who I am? I'm a man that born and read in the South Bronx, New York City, But I could go in any community and not have a problem because I've always treated people the right way. I've always treated brothers the right way. I knew they were gang members. I knew they were leaders in their gang and everything else. But you showed them respect and they showed me respect. Just because I put on a uniform, that didn't make me better than them.

That was my job. And going into a low, it wouldn't have been different because I wasn't there for something, that was disrespectful to them in that environment. It was more of a, to some inmates, certain things are badges of honor, you know. Some inmates don't like officers at all, but it's how you carry yourself. I've never had to walk into an area on Rikers Island

wearing a raincoat and a rain hat where others had to because the inmates would throw shit and pissed through the window at them as the officers walk past and they'd get in their mouths. They would urinate and as the female officer walked by they just douse them or douse the captain or douse the commissioner. They didn't care. But I never had that problem

because if an inmate had a problem, I had a problem with that because that inmate's problem, became my officer's problem, which became my problem, but you're supposed to give them what they're supposed to have. That's the problem. Give them what they're supposed to have. And then you don't have a problem.

But in there, no, everybody wants to be in charge. But you notice how, and I say this, how when these officers leave work, you don't know if you're going to be walking in Walmart in Walmart somewhere and Seven Cell is in Walmart with his family. He just decides to beat on you because you beat on him. Treat people the way that you want to be treated. They're not going to disrespect you.

If you give them what they're supposed to have and you do what you're supposed to do, you're going to be okay. But when you don't do that, you're going to have a problem. And at the end of the day, I don't need those type of problems. So if I would have went to a low, I don't know. I don't think I would have had a problem because at the end of the day, I know how to carry myself. I don't think I would have had a problem at all.

Was it eye-opening to be in an inmate shoes after all these years in law enforcement? No, because I worked in that environment. It wasn't like, oh, my God, what happens to me now? No, it was, oh, my God, what are you going to do for me now? That's what it was. I remember one time, the very first, time, I received the letter from my wife, and a tear came to my eye.

And I was in quarantine because of COVID and everything else, and a tear came to my eye. And the guy that was the bunky, he looked at me, he said, don't do that. And it hurt me. It hurt me because I felt that I let her down. And I didn't listen because she told me, don't hang out with those people. She told me. I'm not going to say that she didn't when she did. I've been married 40 years.

40 years. And she's stuck by me. She didn't give up on me. My kids stuck by me. They didn't give up on me. 40 years. That's a blessing. My mother is 92 years old.

She didn't give up on me. But that's a blessing. And it's almost like, man. So no. I didn't. get it, I think I got a different perspective, yes. I wasn't eye opening or eye popping because I already seen it. What's a different perspective?

It was a different opportunity so that when I do write my book and you're going to be in it, you're going to write the forward. I love it. You're going to do it. Watch what I'm telling you. And it's, it's just, wow. It's powerful, man. Powerful.

What were some tools or tips that helped you? family stay together because so many families aren't able to stay together through that? What were some things that helped you guys? I think I want to say it was communication. Being able to communicate, being able to be supportive mentally to each other. You know, as you know, you could get a cell phone. As you know, there were cell phones around, you know, and you got an opportunity to just encourage each other.

Faith. Faith is very important. Faith is something hoped for, yet not seen. Okay? But my faith and my wife's faith and my daughter's faith kept us together, kept us strong, being able to communicate. And my daughter's communicating with my wife in my absence, but I called her every day. We spoke every day, you know, and that's something that,

others don't have the opportunity to do. They don't have that foundation. I call it faith, family, and foundation. Those three things are going to, that's, that's it right there. Faith, family, and foundation, you can do anything after that. Anything. But I think that's important that you be able to have that communication. Because if you don't have that communication, you are not, you are certainly not going

to be able to do it by yourself. You have individuals that have. I've had their loved ones die while they were incarcerated. I've seen it. I've seen it, man. And it's a tough time for them. But I've taken the time and I've chopped it up with them. We sit down, we chop it up.

We talk about it. And as an older brother, I let them know that your brother, I'm here for you, man. I'm here for you. And we're going to talk about it. You can't be afraid of it. And then there's the ones that were there that I told them, what are you doing here, man? I got court selling this.

Hold on, bro. So what are you doing to get out of here? And what are you going to do when you get out of here? Are you studying your case? Are you doing what you're supposed to do? Trying to encourage them to uplift them to be able to say, I got to do better. And every time they call me OG.

Say, yo, OG, let me ask you. Okay, cool. I'll be OG right now. All right? Young blood, I'm going to be OG. All right? go down to the track, we smoke a cigarette, okay, we do that too. I'm cool with that too.

But at the end of the day, let's do something positive that you're going to do. I went to Bible study every night and tried to help as many as them as they can. And it was a pretty good crowd, you know. But you can't take religion just as a Christmas present and think that, okay, if I pray, if I do this, if I do that, I'll get out and then go back to what you used to do. that don't work like that. You really got to surrender. You really got to turn your life around and say, you know what, I'm not doing that.

It's not worth it. I'm not working out with him. It's not worth it. I'm not hanging out with her. Not talking to him. I'm not talking to her. It's not worth it. It's not worth it.

And at the end of the day, when you allow yourself to make that transition, that's the hardest part. People say, I'll tell you something, and I find it to be true, when people say, you lose something when you really accept God. Think about that for a second.

Yeah. You lose all of the people you used to hang out with because some of them don't even want to hear it no more. You lose all of the places you used to go. Some of the places that don't talk to him no more because they're not comfortable in who they are. They're not comfortable. Every day they're trying to find something

to occupy their time. Put three or four of them together. If you don't agree with what she said up, get up and find four people that will agree. That's bullshit. I'm my own man. God is good to me. And he's good to you, too. Look what he's done for you.

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And people should really see your studio. They should really see who you really are. They have no idea. They see a snapshot here. All right. Snapshot there. Okay. They have no idea the man that you are, that you put together.

And I think that's what people like, like former mayors and governors and stuff that went to prison, I think they need to see that to be able to get themselves to come here to do an interview. Because so many say no. But they don't see that side of me. They look at me as like another felon that wants to capitalize off of a, a crazy story. No, and that's not you at all. I think that people getting the opportunity to meet you, to see you, to have you allow them

to speak about whatever it is that they want to speak about. I think that that's important. I think that that's what change comes from. You see, some people still live in poor, poor me, world. Oh, look what happened to me, poor, poor me, poor me. Poor me. What are you going to do? You get down five times, get up six, nine, ten.

And you keep going and going and going. You never let someone change your narrative. You never let someone change your thoughts like that. You don't do that. What do I mean by that? For example, if you're sitting down and you're at home and you get a phone call from the guys and they say, come on, let's go out and have a couple beers. And you go, nah, I don't feel like doing it.

Come on, come on, come on, come on. I'm sitting here with the wife. I'm sitting here. Come on, come on, come on. And you get up and you go, they've controlled your life. When you say no, it's no. That's it. You say yes, it's yes.

That's it. Some of us are sheep and we're led around by the wrong, by the wrong shepherd, man. It's time to pop off and go, oh, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. governor man you know you need to sit down have this conversation because this is the future it's not always in a book of 300 pages people don't want to read books anymore they want it faster they want it furious so at the end of the day you bring something to the table that others just don't have they're trying to get there but they're trying to get there for all the wrong reasons that's why you've been so blessed because you're going there for the right reasons given those those that are not spoken about anymore, the opportunity to be heard. Let the work that I've done speak for me. I've done, man, people are still benefiting from the work that I've done.

Heart bill, three-quarter bill, variable supplement, all pension issues. Put it's money in their pockets for the rest of their lives. It's unfortunate that a lot of other people don't have those benefits. benefits. But realistically, you know, guys like me have that experience in being able to get those things done for others. Take yourself, for example, you could have a program where you could hold classes and you can show inmates, former inmates, and those who are not inmates, those that will probably be potential inmates if they don't straighten out their lives. what can be done when you seek E-first the kingdom and go from there. That's just me, brother. Now, what's life, how hard was the transition getting out of prison, getting back on your feet at your age, you know, at that point in your life?

What was that like? What do you mean age, brother? Well, age meaning, all right, so. I'll be 65 years old. No, I don't mean it from like an older. I mean it from I was 21 when I got out or 23. I have, you know, I had nothing really going into it. You had a whole life and everything, a family.

I still do. But you had that going in and then when you get out. I still do. Yeah, but like no, like it's just different, you know, reputation. Everything changes a little bit coming out of federal prison. I think that the reputation becomes of what the narrative that people want to paint of you. My reputation is still great.

My reputation is intact. My reputation is what I've built and what. God has allowed me to build for myself. You ask any correction officer, any correction officer in the city of New York. Did he do anything to benefit you beneficially? They're going to say, yeah. And your family? Yeah.

So I didn't get out and put my head in the sand. I didn't do that. I got out and got right back up on the horse, man. I didn't mope around and, oh, poor, poor me. No, no, no, no, no, I'm not doing that. That, the doubt is the devil's playground. I'm not doubting anything. I'm doing what it is that I'm supposed to do.

If I allow myself to think outside the box, then I got to get outside that box. If I could come home, if I would have come home and go, oh, man, I used to be this, I used to be that, I used to be. I still am. You can't take that from me. I earned that. I wasn't honorary.

I was blessed. Every single thing in my life has been a lesson, every single thing. That's why I'm still here. I'm not here because this one or that one. I'm here because God said, okay, this is what you got. This is what my plan is for you, son. Now you're going to follow my plan or you're not. So, no, I got out, brother, and got right back into it.

I didn't mope around. I didn't hide my face. I didn't duck my head. I didn't hold my head down. At the end of the day, I used to have a slogan when I was running for office. It was, what's in your wallet? How much did we put in yours? How's the benefits going for you and your family?

How's that, how's that program going? How's that VSF going that you get every December 15th? Every December 15th, they get a check for $12,000 from the city of New York on top of their pension. How's that going for you? Every December 15th for the rest of their natural life. How do you qualify for that? Like how many, did you have to have X amount of years in? Yes, you have to retire with 20 years, where it started with 20 years.

It's probably 22 and a half now. But you do 22 and a half years with that plus your pension? You get $12,000 every year. New retirees too? Yes. And the only people that used to get it was, police officers and firefighters. But correction officers are mostly black and Hispanic.

So I fought like hell. I fought like hell to get that for them and they got it. That's huge. Huge. I fought like hell to get them the heart bill. Only police and fire had it, mostly a white organization at that time. Correctional officers have it. Three-quarter disability bill.

That means you can't work no more because you have a back injury or a heart injury or whatever, you get three quarters of your salary for the rest of your life. So no, I've been that guy. I've been on the field. Like primetime says, I've been that guy. I did what I'm supposed to do, and I'm proud of it. So no, I feel good about who I am. I don't care what somebody thinks of me is what I think of myself.

If I worried about what people thought of me, I don't know what I'd look like. Some people hate me. That's not my problem. Every day they worry about me. And guess what? I don't give a damn about them. It's just the way it is. I mean, you look at it.

Look at the world that we're living in and how it's moving. Man, it's moving fast. And it seems like we're not catching up. We're seems to be in a different place. And we've got to get back to basics. We have to get back to basics. We have to get back to the fundamentals

of how this thing works and how we're supposed to make it work. We have to get involved in our communities. We have to change the direction of our children in our communities because, you know what, they don't even talk to each other. It's unfortunate.

Now, looking back at everything, if you go back to the decision you made to join the force as a correctional officer, would you do it again? Yes. I'd do it again because I went there for all the right reasons. I mean, yeah, it was a job,

good city job. But it was a community that I came from. I came from the South Bronx. I came from the gangs on Kelly Street, the savage skulls, the savage nomads, the black seven immortals, the black spades. I came from that. I lived.

that. You know, I grew up, that didn't, I wasn't fearful of that. You know, I wasn't fearful of being around people like that. You can't, you can't take a person from Connecticut, let's say, and put them in the middle of the South Bronx for the first time and tell them, now you've got to supervise these people. It's hard. But when you come from that, you, have that much, a little bit extra that you can do. See, I've always believed that a correction officer can become a police officer, but a police officer can't become a correction officer. You're locked in 16, 18, 20 hours straight through three tours sometimes. All you smell is urine, feces, and piss and shit all over the place. That's why I say the place has got to be cleaned.

That's why I say, listen, yeah, I'm going to support people like, uh, chirogeny, cleaning that's going to be able to clean an environment that is green free where you don't have to worry about chemicals and everything else. I'm going to support that guy. I'm going to support what he's doing on cleaning up the schools and cleaning up the jails and cleaning up the different public places that need to be cleaned using dry ice. I'm going to support that. Absolutely I'm going to support that because I think that that's way of the future.

Green. That's where we're going. You know, how come we have to suffer with Legionnaires disease in the Bronx coming out of the water towers because they haven't been cleaned? So you have to be able to get somebody to do it. And when you have people out there that can do it, that's where you turn to. So I think that those things are important. So, yeah, I would have taken this job again. And I take it again and again and again.

Because I want to make a difference in a person's life. That's just who I am, though. What do you think is the most important thing that someone listening should take away from your story? I think that for just the brief part of it that I gave, and I didn't even give a full description of the story, and I'm sure I'll come back to you. We'll do another one. But I mean, I think what they should take away from it is that they have the opportunity to make a difference in their life. They don't have to allow themselves to be what someone else wants them to be. They can be who they want to be.

I think that's important that they don't take from this glorifying jails or anything else. Because there's nothing to be glorified about. Some stories that you hear of guys saying they did that's bullshit. Some guys went in there and cried like babies. Some guys went in there and put their head in the pillow and cried like babies. Some don't talk a good game, but they don't walk a good game. I know that to be a fact. That's a fact.

I've heard cries in the night, and we were at camps. I heard cries in the night. I've heard guys, oh, my God, oh, my God, what am I going to do? Because you're not a hold. You've got to get a hold of yourself. So I want you to take from this the opportunity to reinvent yourself. I want you to take from this the opportunity that you don't have to do that. Just because there's 10 guys on the corner selling dope, crack, meth, whatever you're selling,

you don't have to be an 11th person. They can call you, a punk, call, late. want, but you could bet your last bottom dollar. Those 10, those numbers are going to start to dwindle, but your number is going to stay the same. Your number is going to always stay the same because you're not doing that. But their 10 is going to become nine or eight or seven because one got killed or one to one to jail or whatever the case may be. They're in the minus. Stay on the positive side of it. You have no choice at this point. That shit there ain't working. So you've got to move on. How do you move? How do you move?

on. You focus. You communicate. You reach out. That's how you communicate. The reason why you're successful, in my opinion, is because you've taken that step to move on. You could have easily went back to the nightclub business to all the stuff you was doing. And I wanted to. Yeah. And look what it. Probably, I don't know. You're probably saying to yourself now, I'm glad I didn't. Well, COVID played a big effect. But that first year, man, when I got out before COVID, I got out 2019. I tried everything. man, I wanted to get back into it. And it was when, like, I, you know, took a step back, took that $15 an hour job at Whole Foods and put my head down and grinded. I got everything I ever wanted at that point.

I had a girlfriend. I had a car, my credit, an apartment, things I never had when I owned a nightclub, you know. Okay. It was a whole new world. And do you love the world you're in now? Because it led me here. I did four years. I think everyone getting out of prison, whether they could be a drug kingpin before.

owned the biggest Fortune 500 company, I think it's a humbling experience to get out and work a regular job, even if it's for a few months, because you're going to learn the basics and it's going to get whatever you had before you or while you're in prison, because I didn't learn in prison. I read and stuff, but I still had the same mentality when I got out about going back in the nightclubs. But it was working and grinding and doing regular labor for minimum wage that changed my life. You said something that you said humbled yourself. And that's a lot of people don't want to humble themselves because they're, they're prideful, you know. Pride will get you killed. There's no question about that. They're prideful to the point of, I'm not doing that.

But they're going to think this of me or think that of me. No, man, swallow your pride. It's, it's like swallowing this sofa chair right here. It's a lot, but it's doable. It's doable because at the end of the day, when you regurgitate, when you finally get that gas out of your, you're going to feel better. You're going to look better. You know, and I admire you, like you said, because you took that job. That's part of the process. God made you go through that. You had to go through that before he took you someplace else. But look at that smile on your face now. That process walk is pretty damn good, huh? Because I swore up and down. If you pulled up my prison phone calls to my parents, I'm not working a regular job when I get out of here. I don't care. What the

court orders, this and that. And I did it. Good for you. You know? And I think the biggest thing now is I just have to be extremely careful of staying humble and making sure I don't get an ego or anything like that. Because we all have that within us. And when you're giving fame and a spotlight, you know, that's why I try to respond to as

many DMs as possible. And, you know, just invite just anyone that reaches out here to come be on the show. There's no one I'm going to say no to, even if I have to find an angle to that person's story, you know, to have them come on. So that's what I do. And, you know, something you said about, we didn't go through your whole life story. I feel like my job is to give the highlight reel to bring attention to your book or to whoever comes on. So that can set them up for success too.

And my job is to pull like a summary of the story and engage the listener and promote what that person wants to share. And that changes lives in itself. Absolutely does, man. It really does. And it's a blessing. because when you're in a system that is designed for failure, there are over a million individuals incarcerated in the United States of America. There are over 170,000 federal inmates in the system.

There are over a million in change of state, local, federal combination in the system. 80% of them were going to make it. The other 20% will probably end up coming back. But the 80% goes down because you didn't give them nothing to go home to. You didn't give them anything. You took everything away from them.

You didn't give them a chance. You didn't give them another opportunity. You put your foot on their neck and you kept it there. that's discouraging to a lot of people. They want to do better, but they need help to do better. You have to stop the red tape, the bureaucratic BS, and allow them the opportunity to prove themselves. If they don't prove themselves, certainly they're going to end up back there.

But give them the opportunity to prove themselves. Give them the opportunity to reinvent themselves. Give them the opportunity to communicate with their family so that they can build a relationship with their children, even though they're away. Give them the opportunity to visit with them, even though they're away. Have visits more often. Have communication more often. Have picnics, if you will. They're still in jail.

They're not going anywhere. But if that person has less of a problem, then that officer has less of a problem then you as the supervisor or the manager or whoever you are has left less of a problem and the officers that are in there and the staff give them what they're supposed to have if he's entitled to two blankets, three blankets,

give it to him. Don't tell him F you'll freeze because one day you'll freeze too, my friend. If they're hungry, feed them, man. You ain't paying for it. It's not yours. Give it to them. You're going to dump it. I never threw food in the garbage. Take it.

Everything, whatever it was. And don't get me wrong. If I had to cut up, if I had to prepare a meal for 150 guys, I prepared 175. I did 175, the extra 25, 30 pieces of chicken, if it was fried chicken or baked chicken, this one wanted five pieces. He worked in the mess hall with me. He got five. He got seven. He got five.

Everybody got their little share and they went back and they sold it. You know, that's what they want to do. You sell it. I gave it. Ten extra hamburgers, somebody said they hungry. Yo, go ahead, man. Go ahead.

Because I was eating good. So at the end of the day, I'm going to starve you? No. We're not doing that, man. So give them what they're supposed to have. And it's really heart-wrenching when you know, you know this officer's a piece of shit.

You know he is. And I can't do nothing, but I got to stay in my spot because I'm an inmate now. So I got to handle that right now. Oh, I remember. I remember my last day working in the mess hall. It was, matter of fact, it was New Year's. We prepared New Year's lunch.

We had steaks. yeah we did I prepared it and me and the officer got into some beef he didn't too particularly care for me and he said I should fire you I said no

quit and I walked out I remember that it was kind of funny to me you know and then two months late I was on my way home I didn't know that though but God knew it

God knew it but I'm blessed brother I really am And my story is going to be told. And I thank you for the opportunity of giving me to be able to sit down with you for the minimal amount of time that we had to sit down. Very valuable. It's a lesson.

Everyone should look at Primetime's video when he says, what makes you think, I care what you think about me. Because that's a true statement. That's a true statement. And that's the same thing in your life. What makes you think, what people think about you? You know who you are. You know what you've accomplished.

You know that you have great things ahead of you. So that's me. Thank you so much, Norman. I appreciate you coming here. I appreciate connecting. And you got to stay in touch. We will. We definitely will.

Yeah, we'll bring you back after your book comes out for some more, you know, Rikers Island stories to promote the book. There's their stories on Rikers, man that will really blow you, will really blow your mind. I mean, you know, I heard some stories. Some of it. I really like that.

Okay. But you know what? Some of it is the real deal. You know, some of it's the real deal. I mean, it's, it's rough. It really is. And it's sad. I remember when that kid got killed,

when he got out of jail, his name escapes me for a second. That happened a couple years ago? Yeah. and he got out of jail, he committed suicide. Like I said, we're in an environment, man, that if we don't try to help and save these kids, it's going to get worse. But I appreciate you. I love you, brother.

I wish you nothing but success, nothing but the best for you and your family. And we'll definitely stay in touch for Tita. Same to you. Until your friend he missed out. Yeah, I can't wait to tell him, man. I wish I could send him a copy of this right now and let him see. He missed out. Yeah, he did.