Locked In with Ian Bick - I Robbed a Movie Theater & Did 15 Years in NY & NJ Prisons | Dr. Joseph Williams

Episode Date: February 19, 2026

Dr. Joseph Williams was raised in Brooklyn by his mother and grandmother, but the allure of the streets quickly led him into fighting, selling crack, and a 4-year bid in New Jersey. After returning home and falling back into the lifestyle, Joe committed a brazen movie theater robbery that resulted in a stiff 11-year sentence in New York State prison. In this episode, we dive into how Joe survived the New York prison system, earned his college degree behind bars, and turned his life around to become a Licensed Clinical Social Worker dedicated to breaking the cycle of recidivism. _____________________________________________ #IanBick #rikersisland #jailstory #NewYorkPrison #PrisonStories #Robbery #Brooklyn #redemptionstory _____________________________________________ Thank you to LUCY for sponsoring this episode: Go to HTTP://LUCY.CO/IANBICK and use promo code IANBICK to get 20% off your first order. _____________________________________________ Connect with Dr. Joseph Williams: Website Link: lyfechessynk.com Email: [e-mail] Instagram: @Dr.4joegi LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dr-joseph-joe-williams-dsw-lcsw-88b41584 https://www.psychologytoday.com/profile/1100758 https://secure.helloalma.com/providers/joseph-williams/#More-info _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Movie Theater Heist Gone Wrong 01:01 Dr. Joseph Williams: Streets to Social Work 01:18 Growing Up in Brooklyn 02:33 Raised by Mom & Grandma 05:07 First Fights & School Trouble 09:31 Identity, Anger & Violence 13:13 Arrests & No Father at Home 18:53 Meeting the Crew & Street Life 23:20 First Real Hustles for Money 27:29 Guns, Power & Respect 31:01 Losing Friends to the Streets 39:20 Getting Shot in 90s Brooklyn 45:57 Rikers Island on Gun Charges 52:20 Prison Survival & Hustle Mindset 57:59 Out of Prison, Back to the Hustle 01:05:07 The Heist That Changed Everything 01:10:00 Living With the Consequences 01:16:03 Clinton Prison Changes My Mindset 01:26:01 Education That Saved My Life 01:33:02 From Prison to Social Work 01:40:00 Healing Trauma & Therapy 01:45:02 Buried vs. Planted: My Life 01:46:01 New Mission & Community Work 01:48:38 Advice to My Younger Self 01:48:54 Final Reflections & Farewell Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Everybody. Oh, this is my voice. Hold on. And look, if anybody's listening, I was dead. I was a victim. I'm not making light of the situation. Please forgive me. That was however many years ago.

But I am telling my story in full transparency and authenticity and insincerity. So forgive me if it offends. I was like, um, this is a robbery. Nobody be a hero. I want you to make it home to your girlfriend, your wife, or your boyfriend, if you have them. So if I touch you, I'm talking to you. Like face down, eyes flat, palms, face down, eyes closed, palms flat. If I touch you, I'm talking to you.

And so when I first stepped to him, he thought I was playing. He was like, this is a joke, you want to go to jail? So I let a shot go in the ceiling. Boom. And when I let that shot go. Dr. Joseph Williams went from selling crack on the streets of Brooklyn to facing 15 years behind bars after a brazen robbery at a movie theater. He survived the violence of both New Jersey and New York State prisons, but instead of letting the time break him, he came out a licensed clinical social worker. This is his story of survival, consequence, and turning a life sentence into a life lesson.

Where do you go off, Joe? Brooklyn, born and raised in Brooklyn, New York. My dad's from Brooklyn. Yeah, what part? Coney Highland. Coney Island? Yeah. Coney Island, when I think of Coney Island, I think of the Warriors, the movie, Warriors.

I never saw it. No. So the premise of Coney Island is a gang movie, 79. Yeah, I was born. And they were having a gang peace summit. And Osiris was the head of it. And a gang being agned on by the police shot and killed them and then blamed it on the warriors. So the gang meat was all the way up in the Bronx.

The Warriors were from Coney Island, part of Brooklyn. So they had to make it back from the Bronx, and the movie is about all of their trials and tribulations, making it back to Coney Island. That's incredible. Wow. Who do you grow up with? I grew up with my mother. My mother, you know, my mother's side of the family. I knew my father and my father's side of the family, but primarily, you know, mom's side.

So they were divorced, separated? Pops wasn't in a picture. My mother had me a 15, turned 16 that year. My father was 16. He was, you know, trying to figure out his life, his traumas, and got caught up in the streets, got caught up in drugs, and he just wasn't in the picture for the most part. How old are you when your mom explained that to you? Ooh, I don't think we ever had, like, that sit-down conversation, but it was based on observation, based on different things I would hear from my aunt, his sister, my aunt and my father. father's side. It's like, you know, your dad is back in jail or, you know, your dad just came home.

So it would be that pattern of he's gone. I hear, he's back. So. Were your mom's parents heavily involved because she was so young? My grandmother, yes. My mother's mother, we call a ma. Um, still is. My grandmother at one point when my mother went to the military, my, my grandmother moved into the house into the apartment in Brownsville. And she was the one who, you know, will watch over me. I remember times I was in prison and I would get a rent, I might be playing football

and I hear William 04-8-0161 on a visit. And I'm like, what, my mother didn't say, it's my grandmother. She would go catch the bus the wee hours of the morning downtown Brooklyn

and she'd pull up. And she'd be like, hi baby, I just wanted to see you. How old are you when your mom joined the military? Mommy went into the military. I was, I'm going to say late 80s, early 90s, so I was about 9, 10, maybe 11-ish.

Do you know why she made that decision? My mother's drive was always to get us out of the projects. She always wanted a better life for myself and my sister. For the first nine years, it was just me and my mom's. Then afterwards, my mom, she met my sister's father, gave birth to my little sister. And then it was just me and her. So my mother went from working corrections at a point. to working for transit, to taking a leave from transit to the military for four years, to returning to transit.

Then she worked in transit as a station cleaner, then a supervisor. Then she retired as being the vice president of the AAA Union for transit. How old were you when she worked corrections? I was still, I might have been like seven, eight, nine. Do you remember any stories you used to tell you or advice she would give you to stay out of trouble? She will always say it's easier to get into trouble and go into prison and it's so hard to get out. She also used to tell me if you ever go, I'm not coming to see you. You're on your home.

She told me about the people that she saw in there and how it looked like they were defeated. Like it was a cycle of once you get snared in, it was almost impossible to. get out. So she had a very grim, dark look on prison, the prison experience. But in particular, my mother was big on me not becoming a statistic. She didn't want me to be like my father. Who were you hanging around with? Who were your friends? What was those like, say, middle school and teenage years like for you? So my middle school, my middle school years, I didn't have many friends growing up. I was awkward. People didn't get me.

I was super smart, but my behavior always got me, like, in trouble. I had a mouth and I also had a temper. So growing up, I didn't really have many friends. Not until I started going out to East New York in the early mid-90s. And that's where I, like, found my brotherhood, my family, my community. So middle school, I went from 298 in Brownsville to William McKinley out in Bay Ridge. and got kicked out of there for an attempted robbery. And then I ended up in George Gersh went,

Gersh Jr. High School, I was 66 in East New York, Brooklyn. And that's when a lot of things changed. What propelled you to do that first robbery that you were just sharing? The first robbery, I remember we were in William McKinley, and it was after school. I was hanging out with what was considered the bad boys. And I was trying to find my identity For a long time, I would get teased.

I remember writing a girl a note where you be my girlfriend, yes, no, maybe. And one girl was like, ew, no, you're ugly. And so that kind of hit me hard with my sense of identity. Another girl, I did it next grade. She was like, you got to have a J-O-B if you want to be with me. So I didn't understand, like, I didn't understand me. I didn't understand what it meant to be a boy. And I didn't have a model showing me.

Right? So I would pick, like, little friends that wouldn't tease me. or pick on me, that's who I would hang with. I found that when I was at William McKinley, I was hanging out with some of the kids that was in similar situations than me. After school, they decided, this was when the Walkmans were out.

So this one kid had a yellow Walkman, and it was shiny, and he had it on. And I don't know why the group I was with wanted to take the Walkman, but we took the Walkman, and when the kid wanted to give resistance, I wanted to beat them up. And I realized I always wanted to fight, always wanted to fight. And so next couple days, we were in the lunchroom and police came in and escorted us, escorted me,

and a few others out of the lunchroom. And I believe I might have been like in the seventh grade out that time. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving home without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one,

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but maybe everything happens for a recess. Take noise-canceling headphones. Do they block hearing to heightened taste? Hmm. That sound seems to show. Everything happens for a recess. Where do you think that eagerness to fight stemmed from? Trauma.

As a clinical social worker today, I can look back and understand it. At the time, I was mad. And that was the driving force to fight. I was mad that Mommy always had to work. I was mad that she was always tired. I was mad that she was always mad. I was mad that I got a beating for everything. I was mad that my pops wasn't there, why he didn't love me enough, why he chose drugs over me.

I was mad. I was mad that I couldn't find friends, they wouldn't stop picking on me. I was mad that she would always yell at me. And so that anger, when I get outside, it was a, there's no leash. In the house, I can't channel that angle on my mom's or my sister. I would hurt myself, punch walls, punch windows. outside, I get to put hand and foot. And I found I was good at it.

Do you think this all could have been avoided? Had your dad been in the picture? Yes and no. I say yes and no because my dad could have been in the picture, but had he not been dealing with his own trauma, he would have just been in the picture adding more trauma. His absence in the picture was a whole, yes. But in the state that he was in,

what if I would have wanted to be like him? And a big thing that, like, was my driving force for a long time was, before I knew any better, I did not want to be like him. So where does it go, or where do you go after that? You get kicked out of school. Where does your journey continue? So I get kicked out of William McKinley. I end up in Gershwin.

And 1992 was like a major turning point in my life and just period. I'm seventh grade, yes, we start 1992. I'm in the seventh grade. By the end of the 1992, I'm in the eighth grade, ready for graduation or ready for the finishing the eighth grade. Once I start going out to East New York, I'm cutting class. Now I'm hanging out with people that we're outside. Start smoking weed.

More robberies start with the jumping. We'll jump somebody in. Then there's go in their pockets. Take your lunch money. If you got a walkman, you got a Jansport book bag, we take a night. Then it would be I get caught and I don't got my crew, so you're going to take mine or I'm a fight. And there's a rumble and I get beat up by all y'all, but you're not taking nothing. And it was just as you go through those experiences, it normalizes the street life.

Now, is your crew just friends that you guys are all riding together or are you guys an actual gang? So in East New York, in East New York, Brooklyn, in Lindenhouses, particularly, the blood gang really didn't hit our neighborhood until like 96. So until that time, like I have a tattoo on my shoulder to four CD, that was our crew. We were corners, four corners of drama. And out of all of the projects and out of all of the buildings and the projects, we were the only block that had four. buildings that form the square. And so with that identity, that was our crew. So we would throw up the fours, you know, that that was our identity. Aside from getting kicked out of that first school, are you actually getting arrested and charged with anything, or are you just kind of going through

the motions? So initially it was the Walkman was my first brush, the first time going to the precinct, first time I didn't go to Sparford. In 1992 was the second time. They, charged me with an attempted robbery, which in honesty, I had a cap gun that I painted black, right? But I was not trying to rob this store. I'm dead serious. I was not trying to rob this store. The store owners, and we have a history of this in our community, the store owners are typically not from our community. And so therefore, when it comes to us being young, they talk to us a certain way, they treat us a certain way, they look at us a certain way. So 1992, I'm 13. It's been a tough year throughout.

My older cousin's best friend whose name was Ian Am Moore, Elo, he got killed in Thomas Jefferson High School. The day Mayor David Dinkins was on his way to talk about gun violence at the school. Him and Tyrone got shot by another student in the school. 1992 was my second suicide attempt. 1992 was the first time in this particular incident. I have the cap gun in my pocket. The store owner is talking to one of my friends in a way he and I start having words.

And so my aggressiveness, my willing to fight, I'm like, what's up, you want to fight? And so going to take a walk, man, out of my pocket, I also have the cap gun in there. It comes out. When it comes out, the store people panic, locked the door. He calls 911. So I tussle with the guy. Then they said, get out, get out, get out. Open the door, I'm leaving out.

Police run up, the 75th. They grab me, throw me to the ground. A white cop, he puts a gun in my mouth, 38 long barrel. He says, I blow your fucking head off, you fucking nigger. Don't move. And I'm 13. Wow. I want to shout out, Lucy, because this is something I actually use.

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addictive chemical. That's how they would treat kids back then? Seventy-fifth Precet, yes. So do they let you go or do they haul you off? Oh, no, no, no. I went, that was my first time going to Sparfoot. Spawfoot was the juvenile version of Rikers Island. Today, it's crossroads and its horizons because they split up so it's no more Sparfoot. But that is the equivalent of housing for minors. And so that was my first time going to Sparfoot. And back and forth with the case, we get a public defender. And I got to find this guy, Brian Zimmerman.

I got to find this guy. Brian Zimmerman became like a staple to, it got to the point, as I'm telling my story with my life, the book should be. coming out summer 2026. My grandmother says a part where she's like, at one point, I thought going back and forth the family court was going to be part of my life. That's how much we were back and forth, back and forth. So I get Brian Zimmerman, he got me like off, got me, got adjudicated as a YO,

and that was the first incident in 92. When you got arrested and you go to the station, who are you calling first? Is it your mother? I never remember ever calling my mother. When I really started getting into trouble, my mother was gone. She was away. She did her basic training. I think she was in Korea for time.

She was in other countries, but then was stationed in Georgia for a few years, then for Campbell, Kentucky before returning home. So while she was away, my grandmother moved in. So if I ever, it was a time I got caught up, I made. called my grandmother, but it would be a lot my aunt. Or I lie about my age so nobody gets called. And hopefully I could get out. Do you think your mom being away also led you to doing these types of things or acts?

Yes, yes. I always used to say that my mother, my mother ruled with the iron, what I called it, the iron velvet glove. my little cousins would tell me and they say this like, Arnie Vett don't play. You know, I was scared of your mother growing up. My mom's was like, my mom's was serious. She was, my mother was no nonsense.

I had you with 15, turned 16 that year. There's no excuse. I don't have anything. Get it together. And so because my mother was just so harsh as she was, I was scared. I was scared of her. But I would act out and.

violent ways, not in street ways. So when she left, now I started doing things for money. And that was one of the turns. Do you think your grandma gave you too much slack during that time period? No. I think I realized early, and this is my love you. So. But I realized that at some point, my grandma had more bark than bite.

whereas my mom was all bite. So when I realized it was like, I'm a hand, but I ain't nothing getting thrown at me. I might get a slap once, but ain't no repeated, like, oh, all right, you know, all right. I think that was the difference. So you get arrested for that case, it plays out, and you get let off kind of a slap on the wrist for that?

Yes. So I end up getting probation. It plays out where I end up getting probation back and forth to court. So that's from 92. 93, it got to a point where the judge and family court. The family court judge in New York kicked me out, told me I had to go down to Georgia to stay with my mother in the military because I was starting to come into the court too much.

Be for fights. It's for this. It's for that. It's for that. And so I went down in 90s. started high school, first year of high school down in Georgia, and didn't work out there, got kicked out, ended up coming right back within a year.

In 1994 was the year, like, I really got into the life. And that's public high school on New York now. Yes, public high school. Sophomore year. Sophomore year, I came back. Thomas Jefferson was the school that my grandmother enrolled me in. Ironically, this was the same school that Elo got killed in in 1992. I ended up getting kicked out.

The school is located in an area by what we call the Bama Alabama Projects, the Bama Houses. And the school is like right behind their projects. So that's home base for them. And where they're located between East New York and Brownsville is like to go to school, going to their hood. So if you're having beef with that neighborhood, that community, going to school is putting you in danger. And that's what it was like in the 90s, the mid-90s, the early 90s, the mid-90s. And so a fight led to a jumping, led to a cut in, led to guns coming, led to, so getting kicked out, no high school wanted to take me. And my grandmother enrolled me in a GED program

that my older cousin was going to in Cyprus out for O. Yes. And I got enrolled at 15. And May 1995, I passed my GED. I was 16 years old. So here it is. I'm 16 and I'm done with school. So what are you doing during the day when you start taking the GED? During the day, so I had to go to school or I wouldn't be able to make money.

especially during school hours. So once I was able to finish school and I get my GD, now I can make money all day. And that was the trade-off with my big homie. In the daytime, if I could hustle, I want to sell drugs. Like I'm getting the crack spot open and like, let's get this money generating because in my mind, like I'm going to be a hustler. I'm going to be a gangster to the day I die. That was my mom.

Who do you think influenced that the most? Where do you pick that up from? Everything from King of New York, Godfather, New Jack City, from the music, from recognizing poverty and thinking that crime was like that was the means, right? You see the movie and you see somebody get some product and you were able to turn 28 grams into 125 and turn that into a thousand grams. and then before you know it, like, you change your lifestyle. You're moving at your own drum, your own beat.

You're able to take care of people, take care of responsibilities. Oh, wow, I want that. I also realized growing up, early I've learned, I'm my own boss. I don't like taking orders from nobody. I don't like working for nobody. And one of the things my boss, my big homie taught me, when you stop hustling for me, you want to be your own boss.

And so I learned this early. So what I found in the street was where I felt small, I felt scared, I felt abused in other places. When I was outside and I was like, I got respect. Where I felt my mom was struggling, single parent and it's just her not on welfare trying to take care of us, but we're not getting designer, we're not getting the newest or the latest. So I'm getting teased and laughed at. but she's paying the bills, I want more.

And so finding that the street, if that's what work looked like, go, you're tired, you miserable, and you do it all over again, nah, I'm good, I don't want that. The streets got me early. When you started hustling, are you still living with your grandmother?

Yes, yes. I'm living with my grandmother, and I'm going over to East New York with my aunt lives and Linda houses. And first I was sneaking out the house. I would be, I'm going to spend a night in my aunt house. And then I'm going to sneak out overnight and start selling the wee hours overnight.

And then by, I think about the summer of 1994, it was like I took my first out of trip, out of town trip to D.C. And after that, it was like, I'm all in. Why do you have to go to D.C.? My boss was we had it in, the way the family was set up at the time, we would rotate buildings. So it would be a different teams. So it was like fraud team and it's his team, it's bees team, everybody got their different teams, their own crew.

And when it's their turn, they run the building. So the 14th story, 180, 190, meanwhile, if it's not our turn for the buildings, like, what are we doing? We're not twiddling our thones. We got to get money somewhere else. So that's how we work. And that's also how we kept. Fry was a genius because it was like, it keeps peace amongst,

the crew amongst the team. So we took a trip out of town during our off time, and we went to D.C. And I was like my first experience of getting out of town money. Now these guys you're working for, how old are they? At the time now, 4 and 15, I think they like in the early mid-20s. So they're not too far in age. Not too far. But based on experience, like some of them been shot already, some of them been in prison

already. Like, we're looking up to them like. Nah, they're it. Now, are they the top of the food chain or are they working for people that are even older? Nah, they're the top of the food chain. In fact, they're hunting for whoever's... They're hunting for whoever might be

on top of the food chain above them. That's crazy, God, they get to that level so young. Yeah. I wonder who it is that puts them on, too. Like, what happens to those individuals because they'd probably be way older at that point? It was so... And East New York, what's ironic about East New York is

because East New York is heavily marked. influence. When you look at this part in the movie The Godfather, it seems that's in East New York. Over on Flatlands was a place where Roy DeMayo where he used to dump, not just him, but a bunch of people, dump a bunch of bodies. So in that East New York area where we lived, it was a heavy mob influence. And when we say that mob influence, it's the Italian-American story coming up as, it's as immigrants here, being out-out-ed by the Irish, having to try to figure it out, turning the bootlegging, racketeering, making a niche, making it work. And when we look as blacks, like, can we identify with the Irish?

Yeah, but no. Can we identify with the Russian mob? Yeah, but no. Can we identify with the Italian Mafia? Hell yeah. So I think it was, that was the early drive for us. So the mob, the Italian mob was running that whole area? No, no. The Italian mob was not running the area. They might have been, when I say their influence, it's like their presence is known. Certain things you just don't do. That's a can't go over there and just do certain things.

And as we learn, well, all right, let's set it up over here like that. So you guys were inspired by them. Yes. Now, did you guys ever cross paths with them at all? learn. Not in a family. positive-sounding metric I had. Impressions. Cut the bull spend.

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you're getting kind of that out-of-state money. How much are you making personally at this time after you do your kick-ups and everything like that? Oh, it's a little dude. I don't even... I wouldn't even be able to tell you. Was it life-changing money? No.

It wasn't life-changing money. No. And this is why I also recognize the story of, like, the underdog that needs to be told. Too often we hear these stories about the kilo pushes and the, that ain't the average. The average regular dude, I might have been moving a big eighth. Which isn't that much.

It's not that much, right? I might have gotten to, even if I've gotten up to a key, have I been able to maintain that. Some have, but the average haven't. So in that lens, how do you guys function? And fraud to care me, If I made sure that I had fried clothes, I had money, and I had weapons. Now, what did you think about weapons and the nice clothes and all of that at that time as a young kid?

The clothes I didn't care about, the chains I didn't care about. The guns got me. Growing up, experienced trauma, abuse at the hands, like as a little little boy, the first time I've had gun in my hand, I felt big. I felt strong. I felt powerful. The Lord was actually like, yo, when he pulled me in, there's a few times he tried to recruit me. Yo, I want you coming.

I was like, nah, I ain't selling drugs. My mom always to kill me. I was shook. Then he was like, yo, I just want you to come carry a bag of guns for me. I said, a bag of guns. He said, yeah. I said, where? He said, we're going to go from here to there.

I said, I get to keep one. He said, yeah, you get to pick whatever. I was hooked since then. Did you ever feel bad? about hustling knowing that your mom despised it and didn't want that life for you? No, not at all. At that time, like, no. I looked at the scene from Bronx Tell where Little Colodulo was telling his pops

that the working man is a sucker man. And I really looked at like a nine to five. Like I looked at my mom's like, ew, I don't want that. You miserable. I don't want that. So her view of my lifestyle, I kid less, to be honest with you. Where do you see yourself going when you're 16, 17, say 18 years old? Where do you see yourself in five years?

There was none. My mother had me seeing a psych because I told I wasn't going to live past 18. And I, like, knew it. We had, by 96, we had lost, like, two, three of our people's, the gun violence. And these were the good ones. Like by 95, 96, a few of us, you know, my right-hand man, he got shot at that time. I wouldn't get shot until 98. I mean, 9-7.

But when we lost Buddha and the way Buddha got killed, like, Buddha wasn't active. He ain't do no crimes. When we were snatched chains, snatch earrings, whatever we did, he would hold the door. He'd come with us to get the weed. But he wasn't doing nothing. nothing at. And the way they killed them, they killed him like he was active. Like they, they violated our bro. And then we saw a pattern one one bro down another bro arms, another bro down

another bro arms. And it was like, oh nah, we kill it. We ain't, nah, you ain't getting us. And so that kind of put us on a like a, we was young and we was nuts. And that was when you think about us being young the way we were, a one. with the old heads that we were amongst, we stood out. Why do you think that makes you, or didn't make you want to leave? Walk away from that life. You see your friends around you dying. Because it was the life.

Like, if, if I saw myself as a grasshopper in the land of giants, everything looks like a giant to me. Me having this lens of, I'm going to be a crook, I'm a gangster. This is what I'm born in. to watching the movies. You watch the Godfather and you see young Vito's assent. Everybody think is Michael, when you watch young Vito's assent, when you came on got nothing and he made it and established,

no, I want that. Nobody going to take it from me. You're not going to threaten my family. And so, fonding community where it was like, the more er I am, the more respecting, yo, Little Rookuffs, yo. That felt good. I didn't get that no else.

So I want this. So I'm not leaving that. I'm just going to be more so I could get more of that. What happens in 97? 97, 4th of July. So 1996, I got arrested with another gun. This was out of the guns that I personally had, one we had to get rid of. This was this one.

I got caught with, so now I don't have no gun. So, but in fighting this gun case from 96, I ended up getting a paid lawyer, get it reduced from a felony to a misdemeanor, and I got to do 30 days on the island. And so I go in, June, I come out. It's 4th of July. So we have a little party on the block, 4CD. No, excuse me. We have a cookout on Jones Beach that day. And later on, we have a little black party on a block.

4th July. My right hand tells me, go in the crib and stay in the house. Because every time you outside late, we end up in some mess the next day. That's what banks tell me. So I go in the house, but I'm horny. It's late night. I just, so I remember this one female that's been, you know, she's been trying to shoot her shot. I wasn't really interested, but it's one of those nights. So I go creep over there, we start chatting. She's like, yo, I'm going to finish up with my friend. She outside smoking. I'm like, I'm going to store. I come back.

I ride past my own building and I cross past with one of my childhood friends. Who's been having issues throughout the hood lately? Words get exchanged. They both blood at the time. And I'm like, yo, y'all could jump me. I was 5% at the time. So at the time, I was a part of the 5% Nation of Guards and Nerves. I'm like, yo, I'm like, yo, bro, you have both blood.

So y' y' y'all could jump me. Just fight me. Like, I want to fight you. I don't fight him more root-ups get your gun. Next time I'll see you how your gun, I might have mines. Get to his gun before I get mines. I get shot. I get hit in the hip and the foot.

And my hood split. The old heads on the strength of his uncle, hold him down, my right hand and my team. So it was a major divide in nine seven. But with me not being able to walk him being out of the projects, by the time I did start walking, now I'm back and forth getting money out in Charlotte, North Carolina.

No, they never catch you and get arrested for that shooting? Oh, no, they... In fact, no, they never... No, because I never... The night I got shot, the detectives, like, let me bleed for like 20 minutes

because I was being funny. So a homie who hit me, he was bigger than me, taller than me, bigger than me. When I described, I said, it was a Mexican who was 5'1. He had on a green shirt.

shirt, no, yeah, I'm a purple shirt, green pants, and white hat. So the dude looked at me, he was like, oh, you want to be funny? You think this is a game? All right. And so I passed out twice waiting for the ambulance to come. I was in the streets. My mom, I'm a killer. Like, I'm not telling.

I'm not giving up no information. I was taught these rules. I'm clear on all the consequences of this life that I'm in. And any of my consequences, I'm willing to eat. So when I'm in the hospital, like, I didn't tell my family I got hit. The only way my family knew I got shot that night because a lady that lived in my aunt's building, her little sister got hit by a car

and was in the ER when they brought me in. And when they brought me out the ambulance into the ER and she sees, she calls her family, sends them upstairs. That's how they found out. I got hit. Do you think cops treated people like yourself, like gang members, or people on the street differently back then than they would say now? Yes, yes, definitely.

It's a, I think it was a lens of disdain. I even say even now, today, I don't really see a difference. I think aside from public outcry, if someone is known to be active in a life of crime and harm befalls them, the approach to law enforcement is like, how do you deserve? I'm not putting an extra hours as opposed to some law-abiding citizen, it's hurt. Now, going back for one sec, that was 30 days on Rikers that you did. What was Rikers like back then in the 90s? Even though you were there just for a brief period of time.

So, and that was my, that was my second because when I first got arrested with it, I had to go to Rikers.com. Rikers was, I guess going to Sparflit prepared me for Rikers, but what it was was you got to hold your own. Certain things that, and Fry taught me this. When you go to jail, because you're going to go to jail in this life, you're not going to have a gun. And so you want to have to know how to take care of yourself, going to have to know how to defend yourself and how to fight. And fighting don't always means how you perceive fighting when and losing. He says if anybody ever hesitate to want to shake with you again, that means you won that fight. So when you're in prison, if you ever faced with a situation where you feel somebody is pressing you or.

You let the animal out. And in preparation from Sparfoot into Rikers, it teaches you how to move a certain way. So the initial, yeah, they're going to come to the bunk and they're going to try to feel who you know where you're from, bop, bop, bop. We could talk in the bathroom, we could talk here. Being stand up, moving with sincerity, authenticity,

and transparency. No matter where I go, I think that helped me experience. It's like survived that Riker's experience because it was ugly. You saw the cut in, and you saw the stabbing's. But I wasn't worrying about it. I ain't cut nobody. I ain't stab nobody. And I ain't go to PC, not one time even.

Did anyone, did anyone look at you funny for only getting 30 days for a gun charge? Or was that normal back then if you had a paid attorney? Because now it just seems like no one's getting that type of deal. They're caught with a gun. I think what it was is, yes, recognizing, I think, no, nobody looks. nothing funny at that time. Nobody questioned. And maybe there was a question like in hindsight, so what happened? What did they say? You know, and maybe some paperwork might have had to been shown. Like, you know, but aside from that, it was, nah, because who I was at heart,

like, I was really Jai Rookups. Like, I was really, really Jai Rookups outside. So 97 you get shot. When's the next major turning point in your life? Um, 9-8. I get arrested on our 78 with 86 grams of crack and two guns. Tell us that story. So I start back walking in the 9-7 and I'm in and out of, um, I'm in and out of New York back Charlotte, North Carolina. We have a spot over by Greer Town selling grams, half grams.

Then I got a spot like in the projects where I'm selling like Dom's and 20s. Shout out to my man, Travis. I don't know if Travis is still out there, but he was like, a staple connect for me out there. I was like a partner for me with my brother Sa. Back and forth, back and forth, we get pulled over on the highway. I wake up to state troopers. I'm seeing the lights flashing and knock on the door, on the window, asking me to step out. At the time in my book bag, I had a loaded 9mm, but also had like my paperwork because I was in the process of getting a part, making a job. It's right after I got shot. So I'm armed up everywhere I go.

So I'm like debating on Because I'm This is just my mind I get out I can't talk them into it Search farm weed in my pocket I get arrested Search the passenger side

Finds the gun Then takes the car down Takes the car down They do a search of the car My bro He consent to let And he consent to the search They come back

They find the work 86 grams of crack Now we both had So Fry taught me rules of the game. It don't make sense to people going down for a crime, same crime. If one is already hit, you do the hit, the other take care of you. Like, I learned things. So we're in the county for a few, and this is tough. This jersey was tough. I ain't going to, let me not front,

like, oh, my business, Jersey was a tough bit. I had to fight a lot because I wasn't from out there. Whereas on Rikers, even though I'm in for 30 days, I'm going to know somebody. So my, My bro is working as a port over here. I know I'm a guard body. I'm five percent of her. So when I come on the house, peace to the guards. Oh, peace, God was today's mathematics. Now we build it.

So now you know who I am. So in Jersey, though, yeah, I'm guard body, but who you? We don't know you. And that was a tough bid. So it was a lot of fights in Jersey. So do you immediately get a target on your back just because you're from New York? A target in a sense of you got. prove yourself, a target in a sense of somebody going to have a mentality.

If I was on Rikers, if we was in New York, I wouldn't be living. Like, as soon as that conversation start, I'm punching me in your mouth. If we were on Rikers, I'm snuffing you. We are fight. I go to a box after, but I'm punching you in your face because in my mind, you're about to try to play me because you think I'm from New York or I'm outnumbered. I'm, all right, allow me to reintroduce myself. So that's how you prove yourself in New Jersey.

Yes, I was in, and that was in the beginning. And then it's like, you know, you do the county, then you get to prison. I'm in Yardville. So again, I'm a guard body. So that at one point, the 5% nation of guards and nerves was looked at as a gang, although it was never a gang. It was a culture. It was a way of life even seemed to be not considered a religion,

but like the nation, like the fruit of Islam, the nation of Islam. it's a sect of Islam, right? But being seen as a gang, you know, peace to the guards. I'm here. I ain't by myself. So now there's no bail in that New Jersey case at all for you? Yes, half a million dollars. Who was putting up half a million?

Remember, my mommy said, when you go to jail, don't call me. I'm not coming. So what happens to your whole operation then? Oh, everything falls apart. Everything falls apart. But while we're fighting the case, bro gets bailed out. His mom puts up her house, gets him out. And he's in the military.

I met him while my mother was in the military in Kentucky in Fort Campbell, 9-5-9-6. Once I started going down there, I started selling weed on the Army base. So I'm selling to military people. I'm selling to high school people, and I'm 17 in college. I'm selling the college kids. So always I got to hustle because I'm not working. I'm even taking money on hustling. This was my mentality growing up.

So as I'm hustling and I'm making money, I meet Sa. Sae introduces me to the military side of things, and that just opens up a whole new door. And so nine, nine eight, we back and forth, we back and forth. When we get arrested, like, we got to fight this case. They found 86 grams of crack, and both the guns are really tied back to me. So I say, you know, I'm going to eat, I'm cutting you loose. And when I say my family was like, are you out your mom?

What's wrong with you? They don't understand the street rules. They ain't understand the dynamics of this. They ain't understand my lens. 90, I'm 19. I don't have no kids. I'm not in the military. I don't got a career.

I already got a jacket. I already got a few. So at the end of the day, and the hammer was in my bag with my ID. So that gun, I can't get rid of that gun. That's Mons. If I'm hit with that, what's the difference?

Nah, the drugs is Mons. He ain't know that they. They was in the bag, the guns, mine's too. Cut them loose. In order to make that deal go through, I had to cop out the eight years. The judge sentenced me. Cracker Cayman Jack Margarita

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and a full tank of fuel. Actual mileage in range may vary. Is Territoff? I'm right here. Don't miss the return of Marvel Television's Daredevil Born Again. So what's next? I'm going to take this city back. All new season, now streaming only on Disney Plus.

They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with that. This should be tons of fun. Marvel Television's Daredevil, Born Again, now streaming only on Disney Plus. Me to seven years, I ended up doing four. Do you think he would have done the same for you? Probably not, but I never, and that's what like my mother was saying.

People don't do you. For a long time, this is a beautiful thing. My mom's and my aunt had to talk. And for a very long time, my mother used to think that I was people's followers. Like, I was following behind people. And it wasn't until I was on a New York bed. My mother came up to visit. And she was like, you know, I was talking to, I was talking to my sister.

And Tony told me some things about you that I never knew. And I'm like, man, you always thought, like, you following behind people, you follow it. And I wouldn't say nothing. Man, that's me. I'm not nobody flunky. I'm a boss and myself. I got a, my will nature. I'm sincere.

I'm authentic. I'm authentic and I'm transparent. Now, as a little kid, that looks like stubbornness, strong-willed. You want to have your way. Fast forward, I'm not working for nobody. So we get caught, we get knocked on the highway, you know, I make that decision. I cut them loose. And the deal was while you're out, you put money to the side so that when I come home,

I got bread. You send me some bread, so I got money for commissary. And whenever my mom's or my family want to get up here on the VIA, you make it happen. And, you know, he tried the best that he could for the first two years. And then the last two, like, it just fell apart. What did that teach you? I mean, I wouldn't say it taught me because if it was reverse, I'm doing the same shit. Like, it ain't no, I ain't do that for him.

I did that for me. Like, that don't make sense. You in here with me. Get out there and make some money for us. Like, that's the way I'm doing. You ain't no good to me in here. Get out of here. Now, if I got a way I could get out and it ain't,

I ain't violating my morals, my principles, I ain't telling you on nobody, I ain't doing no nefarious, nothing, then I'm out of here. But I can't. But I get you out of here. So I think it just taught me, it definitely taught me to move wise

or more strategic. It also taught me the liability of a co-defendant. Because I'm gonna be honest, I can't say I ain't question, yo, did he go out there and tell him where that bag was? Because that was mad fast for them to find that bag. They went out and searched the V and they came back. And I'm sitting cuffed to the rail.

Now I gotta go through the motion of playing the... That's not, man. I gotta go through the whole acting. I gotta put my Cigar-Sosay on him. Come on, bro. So now as the big, bed going on. Then when you drop the ball, now I'm gone. I'm contemplating, yo, bro, you left me for dad. Now I'm coming home with that mentality. So you left me for dad,

brodie. You got to answer for that. So now four years in New Jersey State Prison, what was that like for you? It was tough, but it was fun. It was tough because it was my first bed. I went to the box a lot. I had a sergeant, Sergeant Savagio. I remember his name. He hated. He, like, he had it out for me. I'm going to get you, Williams. Um, I fought a lot. I was on, I was like, I was like, I had an old head on my second bed tell me, um, we don't do jail, we do the streets. And I was like, I am, what?

What does that mean? Some jail philosophy. He was like, yo, while we in here, we, without compromising our morals and our integrity, we do everything. that we can do to get up out here. We don't do things to keep us in here. My first bid, I ain't had that lens. My first bid, I'm hustling, we extorting. Y'all can't gamble up here unless somebody from the team

getting a pot of the gap. What? How many people you were sending a PC, fighting? Like I broke my knuckle out there, duck, hit it on the bed. Oh, bed was tough in Jersey, but it was fun. still like I was betting. I'm having dice games. So I signed up for Mercy Cod.

Was it Mercy College? Or I think it was Mercy College in Jersey. I signed up for the college. I got class. But in my cell, we got the dice game, and I got the bank. And I got 20 crates of Newport and five bricks of black and miles in my bank. I'm not leaving to go to class. You bugging.

I got the bank. It's a brick of better. What's y'all betting? I'm still a big. the streets. So now fast forward, 9-8-0-2, I come home, April 8th, 02. Two months home, I'm back in life. Right back into drug dealing. Right back into hustling. Two months home. Was it hard to get back into it, find your footing? Is there new players? How does that work? Whole new players, but what I learned early, what Frye taught me early by taking me out of state,

early told me how to go out of state and set up shop and out of state places. And so when I came home In 2002, my mom's had a house in Warwick that I didn't know at first she was struggling. She ended up losing the house. So then it's like we're in transition, homeless losing the house, going like finding our stay our footing, I'm just coming home. So it's like I'm riding a wave with moms, my husband, my step pops, my little sister. And you know, we figuring this out together. Two weeks home, I got a job at the movie theaters.

So I'm in parole. And then, you know, with the ladies that work there, it's like, you know, let's go hang out. So they take me to the little local area, the bar area. It's where you see the players and you see the, okay, these the, okay, these the shot callers. These the guys and I'm sitting back because I learned how to sit back and watch. I was young amongst sharks, they taught me, sit back and watch. And it's like, okay, he hustler. Oh, wait, did he just sniffing one? Oh, no. The hustlers is getting hard too.

Oh, and they smell, and they smoke weed too? Hmm. Hmm. Okay. What's new to come up here with? I'm new in town. Y'all got some good bud. I got some fire weeds, y'all. How'd I hear? Yo, this is fire. All right. Now I'm pulling up. So now I'm seeing more money from being on the block than I am at work where I want to be. Put a couple little homies on the block. So we start with the weed. From the weed, we transition. Since I know y'all play with that nose candy, I got a good connect. I get some good, good. Coke. Try that. Yo, New York, yo, son, it's fire. I got the bud and I got the soft, y'all. We got the bud and the soft now.

What's next? We got the buds soft and the hard, y'all. That was the progression. This is what I wasn't prepared for, though, yeah. I came home April 8th, 2002. I was home for nine months in a week. In that nine months in a week, my pops got killed in the setup. was meant for me. Two months in, you know, we grind in. Two months home, I'm back. I'm shaking.

I'm active. Fast forward to that night, it was like a greed on my part. I made a stop and wasn't supposed to make. And it got ugly. And after that, it just got ugly and uglier. And when January We rode the round January 03, like my daughter's mother is three months pregnant. At the time, another female was pregnant. I'm broke. I'm like, my student loans is due. My car's impound. I'm stressed.

And it's just crazy. January 4th. I had to go to work. I was working at TGI Friday's in Harriman. But I was only getting 16 hours a week, Saturday and Sunday. I wasn't consistent with the work. I mean, especially after Piles got kept, like, it was low go time. I need to get a ride to work.

I asked my mom's for a ride. She's like, yeah, but you need to shovel out the snow. And it snowed the night before. So I called myself going outside, and I'm shoveling. I got my Tams on. And I stepped in a pile of snow that went, like, to my shins. And the snow got in my boot. And it snapped inside of me.

And I said, fuck this. Through the shovel down. I went to the back where me and my daughter's mother were staying in the place where my mom's with my family. And I grabbed my black gold bag. And in my black go bag, I had my A.R. I had my black outfit, black boots, black jeans, black hoodie, black. Got the black bubble coat, gloves, masks, everything blacked out.

Grab the bag. Come out. I shovel some more. No. Yeah, I grabbed it by the time I came. and come back out, my mom's finished shoveling. She was like, come on, you're going to be late. What's in the bag?

I said, it's my change of clothes for tonight. I'm going out. She was like, all right, it was my change of clothes for tonight. I'm going out. So I get the work. At the time, I was messing with one of my coworkers, an Italian female. And the plan was her friend, we were going out to the club. I got this in my mind.

I'm about to use her. car. I'm going to drop y'all off at the club. I'm going to tell her I need to go back home to change clothes. I'm going to go do what I need to do. Get low. Get back to the club. Blendin, that's my alibi, call it a night. It worked out somewhat like that. But nine days later, state troopers raided the house. So January 14th, there was about 15 state trooper cars coming down the driveway on a no-knock search warrant of 2003. What did you do? At first, when I, so I was getting dressed.

My daughter's mother was in the back of the house where we were staying downstairs. I was in the front of the house upstairs with my mother. My stepdaughter, she had came out the room. I just got out to shower. My mother was getting ready to go to work. She was working for transit. She worked nights most of her career. I was waiting for somebody to pick me up

because I was getting ready to hit the streets through some running. So I just got out to the shower. I was getting dressed. And little Jai came out the room and was like, Jah, there's a bunch of cop cars coming down the driveway. Now where the premises was,

there was like a bowling alley next. So I'm thinking, somebody might have got drunk. It was a disturbance. They spilled onto the property. Let me make onto the property. Let me make sure my. daughter's mother is good. So I slip again boots, no socks on, slip my boots on. I go to step out onto the top deck of the porch. They're coming up the steps and single file like they do in the

movies, arm on shoulder with the heckling cots, with the troopers across their vest. And the first one, as soon as I open the door to step out, the first one says, I have the suspect of sight. Freeze! He pointed out. I say, yo, you see my palms. You bet not shoot. You see my hands. You see my hands. y'all better not shoot. And so he was like, yo, we're here for a no-knock search warrant. We're here for a gun. So when he said that, I was like,

yo, where that's coming from? Because we're out here looking for a gun. I don't like that. Ain't no guns on my property, but why are you looking for a gun with me? And then they get me to the date, get me and they say, you know, we have no-knock search warrant.

We're looking for a gun. And, what is that? something about stuff from the robbery. And it was like, this is from the robbery of the movie or the gallery of the movie there at the gallery. I was like, oh, all right. I wasn't worrying about that.

All right. But yeah, they came. So did you rob the movie theater? Yes. When was that? That night. That January 4th night, so I finished work. We got off.

I had to go back, put it in the car. Worked at TGI Fridays. We closed. I was with the young lady and her friend. We drove over to Middletown. I think it was club, 54 at the time or some something like that. I dropped them off. I was like, yo, I got to go to the house.

I got changed clothes. Let me go get my fit. I'll be right back. I'm going to put gas in the car. She was like, all right, go ahead. I went, drove to the gallery and moved to the parking lot. I parked the car. I had the song, Excuse Me, Miss, by Jay-Z on the Blueprint 2.

That was my theme song to go ahead and do this jugs. Excuse me, miss, what's your name? So I'm sitting in there. I go in. I'm like, I'm changed up. I slide past the ticket counters, get into the bathroom. Now, I used to work here, so I know the ends and the outs. I know that the cameras don't record.

I know that based on each manager, how much is in the safes, etc., etc. I know I'm not going to have any arm resistance. And I pick this because it's like, you know, I don't want no blood. shit right now. Like, like, after everything that just happened with my pops and all, I don't know. I need something easy. So I'm like, I'm going to do this. And, um, it struck two in the morning. I said, yo, it's now another. If you don't do this, you're going to lose your family. And so I came out. I changed, I like, shortened my knees. And I walked up to, it was about eight employees that were at work all males. I walked up. I walked up to, I was about eight employees that were at work, all

I walked up to the main manager. I pulled the AR out. And I was like, I put on a Mickey Mouse voice. And I was like, this is a robbery. Everybody? This is my voice. Hold on. I said, um, and look, if anybody's listening, I was dead.

I was a victim. I'm not making light of the situation. Please forgive me. That was however many years ago. But I am telling my story in full transparency and authenticity and insincerity. and in sincerity. So forgive me if it offense. But I was like,

this is a robbery. Nobody be a hero. I want you to make it home to your girlfriend, your wife or your boyfriend if you have them. So if I touch you, I'm talking to you.

Eyes down, lay face down, eyes flat, palms, face down, eyes closed, palms flat. If I touch you, I'm talking to you. And so when I first stepped to him,

he thought I was playing. He was like, this is a joke? You want to go to jail? So I let a shot going to cell. And when I let that shot go, it was like you had three behind a counter, two over on the kios, him right here, two over there, everybody round up, everybody in the back office, lay down, palms flat, eyes closed, if I touch you, I'm talking to you. So I frisk each one of them, make sure nobody got no guns on them.

You open up the safe, so he's mad, nervous, he fumbling. Tell him, take a minute, take a breather, take three deep breaths. I'm doing it with him in real time. Take three deep breaths. The fast you get the safe open, the fast you could call it cops. You make a statement I could get it. Emptied out the safes. The bag was so heavy.

Took the coins in all. It put a burn in my shoulder from how heavy the bag was. So I had to run from the back office down to the corridor where the movie theaters was playing on that ground level floor, out those back emergency doors to the parking lot where I had to, where the car was park. I couldn't make it to the car with the bag. It was so heavy. I had to drop the bag, run to the car, drive over, scoop it, throw it in.

So now I'm driving and I'm getting ready to head to the club. But as I'm driving, like, I took off the jacket. And at the time I had locks. So my locks was in a ponytail you couldn't tell. So now I got my locks out. I got a light color shirt on and I'm driving. But I'm looking at the seat. and I got this big assault rifle sticking out.

I got a bag full of money. And I'm like, if I get pulled over, I'm going to have to bang out with police. So I'm like, let me get a hotel room. So I pull into one of the nearest hotels and I walk down. Now, that morning before this Jux, I have $15 to my name.

So here it is. I'm getting a room. I got to use all robbery money. And thinking after I get the first room, I'm like, yo, hold up. She did with her friends. and her friend man going to be there. We're going to come back.

We're probably going to be freaking off. Do you want her friend and her friend man in the same room with your money and your guy? No, let me get a second room. I stand out to him. So when the state troopers are canvas in the area, yeah, it was a guy who came, man. So state troopers did good homework

and hence they raided the house nine days later. Now, did you leave the drug game? Why were you working at normal job at that point in time? And why do you have no money? I was on parole. So although coming home in 2002, I still had, I think, four years, maybe five years of parole. And part of parole stipulations was getting a job. And, you know, learn the maneuver.

You get the regular 9 to 5. You keep the people off your back. You do your hustle on the side with whatever you're doing. So at the time, that was my logic. No money because the mob, they call it, taking it to the match. You know what I mean? When they get ugly, that's expensive. You know what I mean?

Bullets are expensive. Cabs are expensive. Hotel is expensive. Eat and out is expensive. It's expensive, you know what I mean? And if you focused on that, you can't be focused on keeping an operation going. It flows apart. So, and I was only getting 16 hours a week in two days.

That ain't. Now, when did your dad come back in your life before he was killed? Was that while you were in prison that you reconnected with him? No, so my pop's always been in my life. But even in that instance, my pops was actually hustling for me at the time when he got killed. He was working for you. He was working for me. He had called me, he had called me a few weeks prior asking me to, first he called me asking for a gun.

He was like, yo, yo, let me have a gun. Yo, I got into some beef with some guys over in the star, best star. And I think it was Crow Heights. And at the time, that was my AR. It was the only one I had. And I'm like, Bo, because his nickname was Rambo. He had a few nicknames. He was his nickname, but he was also called Rambo.

And he called me Jai. He called me my street name. And so I was like, yo, Bo, all I got is my AR. And I'm not giving this to you. Like, I'll never see my hammer again. I know he get high. Like he suffered from from crack addiction and heroin addiction, right? So I'm like, I'm not putting this in your hands.

I'm going to never see it again. I come through if you need me to. He's like, nah, don't worry about it. I'm like, all right. Called me again a few days later. He said, yo, my PO said I tried to rob somebody. She's trying to violate me. I ain't try to rob nobody.

I got to get out of here. So I said, yo, Bo, I'm going to be up this week in the rear. Go to Sean House. my aunt Sean said his sister, pull up the Sean house. If they don't know Sean, they don't know to watch that. Just wait till I come,

I'm gonna come scoop you. He like, I bet. So that weekend, I came, I read up, did my run, picked him up. We went back up to Middletown. I got him a room,

got him to the barber, get clinked up new clothes due to the gap, the, what was it, aeropostale, get him in a new wardrobe. Even, you know, females that get high,

like y'all, I'm going to give you some, go take care of. my pops, go spend the night with my pops. So he's good. I mean, he's good. There's no need for you doing nothing, you good. And then return what I found, and I wasn't asking him to the household for me.

I just wanted to get him out the situation he was in and take care of him. What I found, no matter what I did, where I went, he would get out. If I jumped out at the corner store to get black and miles, he would get out. If I jumped on the side of the building and take a leak, he would get out. So it was like no different when I hit my hood on that last run that it was. He hesitated. And I was like, yo, boy, what up? You ain't coming with me?

He said, fuck it. Come on. And that shit eats me, yo. So who ends up killing him? Why did they want him dead? Or why'd they want you dead? And then he gets in the crossfire. That's what we're not going to talk about.

Okay. Yeah, that's one we can't talk about there. So now you get raided by the troopers for this robbery, but you said you weren't worried about. Because there was no guns in the house. There was no guns on the premises that they were looking for. But even the robbery when they mentioned the robbery. I wasn't stressing it because in my mind I had an alibi. So part of with my father for getting killed, when we came up to New York and the car was my driver, my lieutenant check, me and my pops.

What they have on footage going back up was just my driver and my lieutenant chick. The driver, instead of the work, instead of him doing what he was supposed to do with the work, he tried some funny business and he got arrested. When he got arrested, homicide in Brooklyn found out, and like them doing their investigation, they went to interview him. When he interviewed him, one of the detectives told my mother, your son think he's being slick. Middletown police got a profile on him as a drug dealer.

So when I'm going into the robbery, I have that tidbit of information. So I'll sit, y'all could, we could go to trial? Who I'm subpoenaing? The narcotics department? You guys got a profile on me? Yeah, as what? As a drug dealer. Isn't it possible that I have this money,

that you found that's related to the robbery that I could have gotten it in the course of a drug deal. I mean, that's all I need is probably who calls? I ain't do the robbery. What happened was when they raided and they came. I had work in the house that was for like direct clients that would hit me direct. My daughter's mother, instead of leaving it in the drawer,

puts it in her bag. In her mind, she's helping me so that they don't find it so it's not more against me. But they have a no-knock search warrant and they're searching everything. They find it in her bag. So now they bring her into the prison. So while they're interrogating me for the robbery, I'm smoking black a mile. I don't know what you're talking about. It wasn't me.

I don't get what you said. Because I'm good. Book me, charge me. I'm going to fight this. I got a good argument. I got a good case, I think. And then I see them walk her by. And this is an hour, two hours after.

I'm like, yo, what's she doing here? But we found drugs in her. And she looks at me and says, Daddy, I'm sorry as they walk by. And I'm going to the bathroom. And I'm like, yo, what the f? Yo, my whole plan is out the window. I was taught the game.

She can't sit. in this state troop of barracks? Y'all not about to threaten her unborn child, let alone her born child to use her. Y'all bugging. That's not working. And I'm standing at that urinal, and I'm like, yo, bro, you got to do something.

You know you, you've been taught not to do. That was the longest piss I ever had in my wife. No, that was the second. The first one was on that roof. I never even got to pee. I took it out. And then I heard the door, I heard the money bag,

like the scrape on the gravel, and then heard the door close again. I was just standing there with my dick in my hand. Then I come around, I waited like five minutes. I'm standing there like, yo, nah, nah. And then I walk over and I see him laying there like that. That was one, that's the longest piss out of the hat. And that state trooper Barracks, them walking her by, I said, damn, I got to confess to this robbery.

And so I went back in there, sat in front of the investigator. All the cockiness, all that cockiness should I have before the bathroom break. That was a real bathroom break. It was gone. He's sitting and cleaning his glasses. I'm like, I couldn't even, I had to, like, get courage to say it. Like, I'll confess to the robbery. Let her go.

He said, he looked up. He said, what? I said, let her go. The drugs is mine as I put them in her bag. I'll confess to the robbery. She didn't know that they was there. Long story short, they took her home. I got to speak to her on the phone, confirmed she was home.

I confessed to the robbery. Full confession. I did it by myself. I threw the gun in the river and the money I used for bills. That's all y'all got left. How much money did you end up getting? It wasn't even 20 bands. It wasn't even worth.

It wasn't. The monetary risk wasn't worth it, even if it was a million dollars. It wasn't. My lens at the time was I needed something small to get back up on my feet that I didn't have to spill no blood. That was like my lens. When I think of the worth and the work that this thing has propelled, it was worth it. But why a movie theater? Out of all the places,

you're heavily armed and you pick a movie theater? Because it's easy. The back, when you know the office, so I don't like going out to clubs. I don't like going out to places. You asked this before about, well, why, Rob, if you,

my big homie cautioned me about being a mad dog. And a mad dog is like this idea of, you do everything. If you're going to sell drugs, sell drugs. You want to stick up, stick up. When you try to do both, you're doing everything. I was always taught we never sell our gun because when your bread is low, you go do a robbery to get back on your feet.

So the idea of taking money in a lump sum was part of the code. That was part of, if you think of when they speak about the different burrows, Manhattan keeps on making it. Well, they say Queens keep on, we ain't going to go there. But when they come to Brooklyn, they say Brooklyn keep on taking it. We have this stigma that we take, we take. We're known for stickups. We're known for taking bread and then making it work.

And so that was, my thought process was, if I could hit the movie there, hit the back off, three safes. That's a minimum of, eh, plus a little bit of this, eh. I said, easy. If I hit a drug spot, I might have to hit something. If I hit a check-cashing spot, I might have to hit something. Any other spot, I may potentially have to hit something. I want to avoid that right now.

So I said the movie theater. So how much time do they end up giving you once you cop out? So I copped out to 13 years. Judge sentenced me to 13, and I did close to 11. So from January, January 5th, 2003. Wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd. But too often, life gets busy, or the price holds you back.

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While supplies last, selection varies by location. See associate or Lowe's.com for details. I came home August 30th, 2013, and been done. And this is in the New York state system. New York state system, yes. Where did they send you first? So from after the county, because I was in Orange County, not on Rikers, because of where the crime was committed, I spent about a year fighting a case in Orange County.

From there, I went to Downstate. I was only in downstate for about a month before I got to my assigned jail, which was Clinton Danamo, first stop. And I remember the spill when you get to Clinton. You drive up as it looks like this big castle, like building. Like, you ever saw He-Man, Gray-Skull, it looks something like that. Like, and driving, the dude gets on the bus. He got on the hat.

He got his sleeves rolled up. And he's chewing snuff, chewing the tobacco snuff with the Mountain Dew bottle. And he says, Yeah, comes on. He says, welcome to Clinton, Danamora. If you have any problems, you handle it in the North Yard. When we tell you to stop, you stop. If you touch one of our officers, we'll kill you. Does anyone want to sign in the PC? No, get off my bus. I was the introduction right there. And I was in Clinton for about three years. years before I ended up getting transferred to my next facility. But Clinton was that, that was the starting point. What kind of offenders are housed at Clinton? Clinton is a maxi-max. So you have predator, you have super predators, you have violent offenders, you have people with high-profile cases. Sean was in Clinton. Tupac was in Clinton. Um, separate.

separated, of course, general population versus is PC and then as IPC, involuntary PC, and then protective custody, please put me there, never in either. And then it's general population. But you got a lot of people that they have a lot of time. They've done a lot of violent things. Or they're just getting out the box. What was the biggest difference between that prison and your time in New Jersey? Jersey

I was in Yardville which was a medium and I was a minor So although I was What Yardville was 98 to O2 So I was 19 to 23 In Clinton

Like I'm all adults And I mean you see the old heads With the grades Who got 89 numbers 89 A such as such As like damn You've been down since 89 bro

I was 10 and 89. So Clinton, you have that. Do you think it's easier to go into prison having already have done time before? Yes. I think it depends on who you are, right? Easier to go in because the thing with prison is adapting. And as humans, we're malleable. We adapt to environments and situations.

The scariest thing is, it's easy to do a bed. If you stay out of trouble, you meet someone, that's willing to do the time with you, you can get married. You can have trailers. So you get your hump on every 60, 90 days, have kids. You get what's the best job in the jail and mind your business. And you can have a modicum of a life. You don't have the responsibility of bills on the outside, but can spend time together. We do a bit. I ain't beat for that. Now, were you able to adapt pretty quickly and kind of integrate into the prison? than at Clinton?

Yes, yes. One thing, not just being in Sparfoot, but also I've been in psychiatric institutes before. I've attempted suicide twice. After my second suicide attempt, my mom, she tricked me into a psych hospital where I ended up staying for like a couple months. And you have to learn systems.

You have to learn how to maneuver. You have to learn what the people above you are looking for and what they're not looking for. And you have to, I had to learn how to get my way, but maneuvering it in a way based on where I'm at to still get my way. So give us an example of that. And the psychiat, not the psychia, when I was locked in the psych institute, because of my anger and my outbursts, they questioned giving me medication. I didn't want to take medication. I figured psychiatrists were dumb at the time, so I was going to trick them.

So I waited until like they would time their rounds when they would come do their talks. A few times I would go in my room when they two doors away from me, take my shirt off, start doing some push-ups with my Walkman on. And when they come in, I feigned a scenario where I was using proper coping mechanisms. Hey, Mr. Williams, what's going on? Oh, hey, guys, yeah. Now, how you doing? I'm all right. I'm all right now.

I just had a bad phone call and I got upset. And I figured I need to come in my room and do some push. Oh, okay, that's good. Gotcha. I don't want to imagine I want to get out of here. That's not what I mean I'm going to punt somebody in the face. I'm just going to be a little more strategic about it. In prison, I didn't want to be there.

I wanted to go home every day, but I can't. So I had to ask myself during sailing time, see my life play before me, recognize all my soul. series of decisions throughout. And now that I got my daughter and I swore I wouldn't be like my father, how am I going to do this bed? I got to do this bed in the way with my checkmate, my endgame and mine.

What's that going to look like? I got to do this different. I got to do this different. And that was a focal point at the start of the bid, which made it different from the jersey bed. The Jersey bed I was on Play Play. It was about me. This New York bed, I hated every day being there.

I did not want to be there. And I said to myself, when Judge Rosenwasser sentenced me and the back of my mind, I said, you know you don't fuck that right. You know you just fucked up right. And that's that scene from minutes to society.

In my mind, I knew I was about to have time to sit down and plan. And that's what changed. That's what made the two beds totally different. Was there a part of you that always wanted to get your life on track? Because you mentioned in New Jersey, you attended college classes. It seems like there was a part of you that wanted that. There was a part of me that wanted to keep my promise to my mother. My mother was the first one in my family to graduate from college. My mother was like, my mother was like, my mother was a a trailblazer in a lot of ways, in our own ways. And I made that promise. And I was like, I wanted to keep that promise. So because school was like, I excelled this school, it wasn't

tough. It was just always my behavior or the commitment of sitting and learning. I was bored. You bore me easy. Like, if you don't engage me in a conversation in a lecture, I'm, oh, my God. And then I'm a reader. So I might know, then you might be saying, son, I know it's wrong. I'm good. So I think college was a drive for me to keep a promise. I didn't realize that higher education would be the change. I did know, to your point, I knew that a child would change my life. And I wanted a baby early.

So did I want to change? I did. I did. But I knew I could only do that by having a baby. You said your mom eventually would come visit you in prison. What was that first prison visit with her like after promising never to visit you? It was a lot of hurt. You know, you got to sit there and, you know, hear I'm disappointed and I want more for you.

And I think it was tough because it was like holding the space for her. But then the reality is like, I don't want to hear this. It's like you put me in a vulnerable state. I got to go back and hear. Like when we're done, I got to get butt naked in front of these. two people. I got to grab my butt, spread my cheeks and cough so they could see if I'm hiding anything

in my butt. Like, I got to go through this, the humanizing process just to go back into an animalistic environment. I don't need this mentality that you're trying to do to me. And so, I think the first visit was more like

a guard or wall up. Like, yeah, I ain't actually come. And if you're going to sit here and doing a lot, like, respectfully, you don't got to come. But my mom's going to be my mom. So although she said one thing, she showed up. And the first bid, you know, being in Jersey, she was trooping. She would make those trips. The second bid, first stop was Clinton.

I got there February 26th, February 29 for how to visit. What stands out about that at that time? Because when I went down to visit. visitors like in the basement of the jail. So it's like you're going in a dungeon. And it's literally you got to go through these gates and long hallways and things. My bad, I mean, I said, no, you're good. All right.

And so you get there, you give the dude your ID. And so he looks at my ID and he says, huh, you just got here because it states what date you got to your picture. It was issued. So he says, huh, you just got here. I said, yeah. He said, somebody must love you and gave me back my ID. And I told my mom's that.

And she says, no matter what I told you, I always want whatever you are, for them to know, you have people who love and care for you and will show up. And so if that means me pulling up, then I'm a pull up because they ain't going to just do what they want, bury you, and then you disappear. Oh, no. So did the woman you took the charge for stay with you the whole time? No, I don't know. My daughter's more, how I don't know.

How old? That's my, I love Ray. Nah, but she ain't had a capacity, to be honest. Like, she ain't had a capacity. Little job was 11 at the time. Then she had my baby. It was a lot going on in her world. So she, no.

That's interesting, how things play out, right? Yeah. Yeah. So how long do you stay at Clinton until you go to the next prison? So from Clinton, 405,06, I went on a transfer towards the end of 06. I don't go to Shawonga. Shawonga was another a max-a jail. It's built, I think, like in a horseshoe in a box.

And that movement is like every few feet is doors you gotta get pop buzzed through, but it's like through this camera. So we're in Clinton. They got the keys and his. Like, you don't even see the gods. What was ironic? And I was questioning God at this time. Throughout this bid, I gave my life to Christ.

So I don't want to say denouncing the nation of God's and earth, because I ain't denounce the nation. But I left, right? I left. And I pledged my allegiance to Jesus. I became a disciple of Christ. And so in that, Part of like my bed was also like, God, you align my steps during his bed.

I don't want this to just be for nothing. I'm like I'm going to pour. So I'm looking to get transferred to a facility that has college. I was trying to get to Sing Sing. So when I get to Shawongam, I'm like, God, what are we doing? I'm trying to get to Sing Sing. I'm near. And the first one I'm there, my classification goes from Max A to Mag.

So had I still been in Clinton, I would have been stuck in an upstate hub. I would have ended up going to Clinton annex or, so instead, Max B makes me eligible for Eastern Correctional Facility. So a few months there by 07, I'm on a transfer to Eastern. I get to Eastern, I'm mad at God. I'm like, yo, God, I'm not understanding you. Like, you know I don't want to come on and pick up no guns. Like, I'm trying to do school, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I'm there for the second night. We got late wreck, and I'm talking to one of the Christian brothers. And I'm airing my first race with God. I'm like, yo, I'm really frustrated, blah, blah, blah. I'm trying to get to college. I'm trying to get to sing, sing for college. And so he looks at me, he says, you know they got barred here. I'm like, barred.

What's that? He said, college. Word. I said it three times, don't. Word. When I say the chess piece, the chest piece is just like, do-do-do-do-do. it all fell in place for me. So me getting at the Eastern at 07,

I went and I applied. I applied, put my application in. I got accepted into the BPI program at 07. And I started my, like I started college, graduated in 2000. Oh, I got my associates in 2011, applied to the bachelor's program, which was a competitive process. Got accepted into that and graduated.

January 2013 right before coming home. And what were you majoring in? It was liberal arts, but mine was social science. And so because it was the focus of social science, I wrote my senior project paper on the gangster and hip-hop. And what I argued, that in 1998, there was an Tom article that hip-hop became the top-selling genre of all musical formats

surpassing country western. And, you know, critics argue culture, changing of this and that. I'm like, no, it's because rappers realize America is obsessed with the American gangster. And what they did, they took a three-prong approach. Consciously or unconsciously, they changed their names. They changed the content of their lyrics. And they changed their appearance.

So gone was the fatigues and the Tims and the hoodies. Now you got the Fasachi with the linen and the fedora. gone was, I'm in the hallway and I'm in the lobby, selling doms. Now is, I'm in Miami and I'm moving keys and the names. Went from Biggie Smalls to Frank White, the notorious B.I.G., which is mobster. You got the commission, right, which is, we know is mirrored after the mob and Murder Inc., the hit division of the family. So all of this tied into my paper, I made a scholarly argument for something.

that was hit close to home, and I got an A-minus and ended up getting my bachelor's. People that would attend college classes, do you think they were less likely to participate in gangs of violence in prison? Oh, yes, definitely. Those of us who, we actually changed the prison culture. Like, any facility that barred is in, depending on the individuals who are attending, because anybody's not stand-up cats, right? But when you find in the facility, especially by I was at, we would have, we would have

We were the dudes that was the wolves. And we just figured out, like, we, instead of being in the yard, be like, I could go in the yard, lift weights, pop off sell drugs, or I go to school builder and get this degree. So let me pull up here, see what, then when I'm seeing the homies, I'm seeing some of the big homies, I'm seeing people who I know get busy. But yo, you're involved? Yo, let me see what this thing about. Oh, this is how you're, oh, it changes. So what was your plan getting out of prison this last time in 2013? So I had this audacious plan.

It was like this plan was how dare I come up with this plan? Here it is. I am a two-time violent felony offender. Shot when he was 18, single parent household, bye, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. How dare I come home and think I'm going to be a social worker? And I had this plan. I'll tell you how it happened. I leave the yard.

I'm in the school building. Professor has some information about Columbia's, the Columbia's University School of Social Work, the different programs. And the brother that is reading it, he's in the school building, and he's looking over. So I'm like, yo, bro, let me see that.

Slide that down in favor for me. Let me get that. So I'm looking at it over, and I'm like, huh, the School of Social Work. So they got a two-year plan. They got a three-year extended. They slowing it out. Then they got to accelerate it 16 months.

joint. Now, the 16-month joint, you got to apply by October. And you start January, and then you go 16-month straight through, and then by May. Hold on. I just graduated. So technically, my CR date is March 2nd, 2014. But when I get the six months off, because I just got my papers, that means I'm going to get out September 2nd, 2013. September 2nd is Labor Day. That means they're going to make me out, let me out that Friday, August 30th. That means I'll be home to make this October deadline. And if I could be home to apply to this by October, then that means I could potentially be starting Columbia by January 2014.

Now, if I start January 2014, then I mean graduate May 2015, and then some social worker. I ain't that a job for women. son, you people come to you and talk to you about things. Yo, all the times you were spending a yaw, that's like you're doing social work, so why not? And what do you be doing as a social worker? You talk and you listen.

I'm going to get us a shot. When I came home, I put my application into Columbia, I got a job at Fresh and Coe making $9 an hour chopping salads and we're smiling. Hi, welcome to Fresh and Co. May I take your order? I just went from making 30. cents an hour in prison, 42 to max, 42 cents an hour. How dare I complain about minimum wage?

I'm gladly taking minimum wage. My lens changed. So my plan was, I'm coming home to get that minimum wage job. I'm coming home to go to college, to higher education. I'm going to be a social worker. I don't know what that's going to do, but it also tied to this mission. And it's ties with being at school, high education. While I'm in Bar, one of my literature classes, we went over the book, The Souls of Black Folks, by W.E.B. Du Bois.

And the book was famous for, quote, the chief problem, the problem with the 20th century is the problem of the colored line. And so we know W.E.B. Du Bois, one of the founders of the N.A.C.P. The book was published in 1903. So at the height of a major American turning point, I read in this book in chapter nine, the chapter of masters and men, he says this quote, but the chief problem in any community cursed with crime is not the punishment of the criminals,

but in the preventing of the young from being trained to crime. I'm going to say that again because I had to read that again. and it hit me. Yo, he wrote this in night. It got published in 1903. So that means he wrote it in the late 1800s, early 1900s. And he said, but the chief problem in any community curse with crime is not punishment of the criminals, but in the preventing of the young from being trained to crime.

And so I thought as a social worker, I'm going to come home. and I'm going to help steer not just one kid from going to prison and that's going to be my measure of success. I'm going to dedicate my life to if I can help steer one kid from going to prison from picking up a gun from selling drugs.

Shout-offs to me. So what do you think was missing from that period of time when you got out your first bid versus your second time? Do you think that has to do with not finding your passion and purpose in life? or partly not finding my passion and purpose. Or do you think it was the amount of time that was given you the second bit that really,

like if you had gotten that amount of time the first time, you would have reached the same outcome? I don't think so. I think it, I, so I credit two things. One, I credit, I credit the birth of my daughter. My daughter's mother said to me while I was fighting the case. And I told her, I'm facing a minimum of a decade. She looked at me and said, I don't care I'm having this baby. That gave me a reality that it is really about to change.

Compared to the first bid, it was about me. I really didn't care. Crime was still an option, the first bid. This second bid coming home, crime was not an option. I don't care. It was not an option. Now, I won't say I ain't have a hiccup in these last few years. 2018 was a tough year.

I'll be fully honest and transparent. It was. It wasn't tough year. It was a year where things could have went all the way left, right? But I think that difference was in between the first one and the second, not just time to think. It was one, a level of maturity, but two, it was the reason for living. First one, I didn't have one.

It was me. Second one, I got a baby. No matter what, she didn't actually be here. and no matter what, I have an obligation. And so that's why it was like, no, I got to do the bit different. And then the other part to that was giving my life to Christ. And then giving my life to Christ,

it gave me a new lens and new identity, right? I'm not religious. I'm not a Christian, and I'm a disciple of Christ, right? The difference is, one, as a religious doctrine, it's a means of teaching to suppress us, especially the black enslaved people. It was a mechanism of enslavement for as a disciple, it's a walk of spiritual activation that denotes a relationship with God. So it ain't about me preaching to nobody.

It's about how I live in love. And so when I think about my work as a social worker, like, I live in love. I mentioned sat, sincerity, authenticity, transparency. You talked to anybody that knew me from when I did the bed, that knew me before the bed, that knew me since I've been home, before college or before Columbia, let alone me get my doctorate, because I just graduated with my doctorate from NYU, hence the name Dr. Joe. I'm the same. I'm the same me. I'm sincere, I'm true to who I am. I'm not going to talk about you behind your back, be funny.

I'm authentically me. I might say some shit that might hurt your feelings. I'm apologized, but I'm me and I'm transparent. I'm an open book. I've been molested. I've attempted suicide. I've been through shit. I'm not the best.

I don't always make the best decisions. But I love the Lord and I love me. enough to walk in this healing walk for it to be real. I really want people to heal from their trauma because I know what it looks like when we're hurting. Me. Do you feel like you're able to connect to people, your clients more because of your lived experience?

Definitely. I think because of my lived experience, it helps me to center the ability to lend shift. Right. And my father in Forward Workshop, I speak about, we parent the way we were parented until we choose differently. And part of our, you know, our ABCs and father and forward is H is humbly human. It's remembering.

When we become parents and adults, we forget what it was like being eight. We forget what it was like being 10th. Feeling awkward, feeling inadequate, feeling embarrassed. feeling things not fair, feeling abused, feeling like you powerless. So when you can remember those feelings, one, you work to make sure you don't perpetuate it. Two, you give space for understanding. And so, no, I get it. And when there's, I get it, people are willing to open up.

It's less of a guard, it's more vulnerability. And therapy is all about vulnerability, because we got to pill back the layers. is how was my lens form, right? I use the analogy. If I have the lens of a hammer, everything outside looks like a nail. The prescribe interaction between hammer and nail is a breast approach. From people on the outside, oh my God, he's aggressive.

Oh my God, he's mean. Oh, my God, he's this. I have the lens of a hammer. Now, how did I develop this lens? Well, people will say, well, you need to change your lens. You need to change. First of all, how? So helping my clients understand how their lens was developed.

You understand ACEs, adverse childhood experiences. When you understand the social determinants of health, how community and how it was formed and structured impacts the growth and development of a child. When you think about arrested development, this psychological concept where an individual's emotional, cognitive, or social development or growth, it stops or stagnates at an earlier stage and is because of trauma, neglect, dysfunctional environments or chronic stress, and it leads to immature behaviors and poor coping mechanisms in adulthood. So when we see adults throwing temper tantrums, and we see the kids throwing temper tantrums with bullets

and shootouts, we see all this violence, this is trauma. This is pain on a scale. That's crazy. How do we heal this? Because that was me hurting. And so me recognizing me and numb, this is where it's like, this was my drive to do this passion work. Altogether, how much time do you think you spent in prison? Over 15 years.

Four on the first one, close to 11 on this one. And then out the spa foot, clear over 15 years. Now that you're in the position you're in now, how do you look at that time when you put it all at their perspective? I'm working on a book, Buried versus Planted. And I love the analogy. Buried versus Planted. When something is buried or something is planted, they both go into the ground. The thing that's buried is dead.

The thing that's planted is dormant. When something is buried, it goes in the ground, the activity. stops. When something is planted, it's dormant, it goes in the ground. Well, that's when the gestation process starts. And what we have when that happens, well, first, that out of shell got to get crushed. That's been, that was my image, my ego. That was the hard rock out of me. I'm gangster. I'm jeed up. That she had to get crushed. Now, when the seed is crushed, the life that's inside of the seed gets free, but I got to find my roots. I got to find my foundation.

I got to get anchored. And so the seed goes down, digs down. And it finds his roots. And when it anchors on and it's sturdy, it redirects his course and climbs up. And this is the process of life that I had to learn. Prison for me was my planted process. And it's to climb up and to climb up and to climb up.

and then you sprout above ground and then it's the shoot and then you keep sprouting and you keep sprouting and now before you know it you're a whole trunk with limbs and fruit that's bearing seeds I wasn't buried in prison I was planted but who defines buried or planted

is you and I want the brothers and sisters that's behind the wall I want them to learn or know that they got the power to define you self-define Are you buried or are you planted? And when you choose to be planted, your outcomes get different.

You know, my life chess, ink model is a series of decisions. One move, another move, another move becomes an outcome. Your checkmate, what's the checkmate you want. And so helping brothers and sisters understand that that power is inside you. In the words of the great Jay-Z, I show you how to do this, son. That's what I look to do when it comes to this social work. That's what I look to do with therapy, just all my endeavors, everything that I'm doing. What are you doing now?

What do you have going on? Ooh, ooh, busy, man. I need more hours in a day. All right. So a few plugs. I've got to plug in. I have my own private practice. Joe Williams, LCSWP LLC.

We just started a part of the, group practice, lived experience therapists, and that we're recruiting therapists with all sorts of lived experience because we know and believe therapy works with the right therapist. I'm in position to become the director of Project Restore Brownsville, and Project Restore Brownsville is a interdisciplinary, interdepartmental initiative that is part with the mayor's office, part with the Kings County District Attorney's Office, part with Columbia University, part with a local organization,

this one being Canber, and part with Inside Circle, all vested partners to see the successful development of 30 active Warren street formations. It's not 30, but two street formations, two gangs, that's actively beefing, working with 15 participants on each side to help them through a restorative justice initiative. So looking to take the helm as the director of that.

And I'm from Brownsville, born and raised. So I'm like, I'm super eager for that. I'm also work. I'm the clinical director of in the field sports therapy. It's a sports-based mental health. It's a sports-based mental health therapy and wellness program, and we're looking to tie mental health as well as sports-based training and therapy combined. And as the clinical directors, not only overseeing the clinical approaches that's done and practices,

but also training staff to, you know, provide these services. And that's just a few. That's like, that's just one, two, three. Like, I'm my work. I consider myself to be a conduit of comfort healing and peace. I'm a chap, right? And in that, my line goes off. So I'm a therapist to the family.

I'm a therapist to, you know, to the streets. I'm like, and for me it's rewarding because I'm modeling healing. And these are people who knew who I used to be. Like, and we're still saying, now, you're still nuts. You're still a little off. But we love you. So. What would you tell your teenage self?

if you could sit across from him today. Trust the process and forgive yourself. I think trust the process and forgiving yourself. That's two big things. Well, Joe, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you for coming. This was an incredible interview.

I love your storytelling your energy and just, you know, everything you've been able to overcome and accomplish. Thank you. Thank you. I'm on it, and I appreciate being featured on lockdown. Of course, and we'll have to link to all your stuff in the episode description. Covades.