Locked In with Ian Bick - I SHOT My Sister’s Boyfriend | Josh Holi

Episode Date: May 28, 2023

After getting into an altercation with his sister's boyfriend, 22-year-old Josh Holi starts shooting. After being a fugitive from law enforcement for over a year, Josh is apprehended and sentenced to prison. Listen to Josh's story unfold and how he was able to not only make peace, but turn his life around.Connect with Josh Holi:https://www.instagram.com/know_vember/https://www.facebook.com/joshua.holi.1https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshua-holi-b7ab2010bhttps://www.youtube.com/@Know_vember Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com/Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos & more:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/joinPowered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We are back with another episode of Locked, with Ian Bick. On today's episode, we have a super exciting interview for you guys. I interview Joshua Holly, who at 22 years old was charged with an attempted homicide after taking a gun and shooting at his sister's boyfriend. Thank you guys for tuning into Lockton with Ian Bick, and I hope you guys enjoy the show. Before we jump into today's interview, just a couple quick announcements for you guys. If you guys could take a second and complete the survey in the description, if you're listening to this on YouTube or on our audio streaming platforms, click on that link to the survey. It helps us make our show better, gets feedback from you guys, what you want to hear, what you want to see more

of, maybe even what you want to see less of. So when you guys get a second, just complete that interview for us. Also, on our YouTube channel, we are now offering an exclusive membership for $4.99 a month. You could get access to interviews days in advance before they drop. You can see behind the scene photos with our guests, and you can also interact with me personally. I take the time to run all of my social media accounts, so whenever you see us liking, commenting, whatever, that's me responding to you. All right, guys, thank you for tuning in to Lockton with Ian Bick. Thank you for all the love and support you've been showing us.

As always, remember to like, comment, subscribe, share, and thank you guys for tuning in to Lockton with Ian Bick. Josh, welcome to Lockton with Ian Bick, man. Thanks for having me, man. I appreciate it. You DM me on Instagram and I looked at your story and I'm like, wow, this is a crazy story. So we had to have you out on the show. Yeah, man. But thank you for driving out here today. I know you had like a three hour ride to come out to the studio. Yeah, yeah. It's my pleasure, man. I'm happy to be here. Yeah. So let's jump into it. Where are you from? What's your childhood like growing up? Originally, I'm from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. So small town and I grew up pretty much in a household of all women. So I have an older sister, my mother, my grandmother. mother, two aunts. So I was really aware that I was the only male there, even though I was a kid. And it's like five different women, five different stages of life, five different sets of problems. And I was kind of always felt like to be that protector for them and be that person that knowing when I grew up, I was going to have to lead that house. And you said you're

the oldest? I was the youngest. You're the youngest. There's a couple years older. I was just a little pup and, you know, I didn't know much about anything, but I was aware that my father wasn't around and, you know, I didn't have any male figure in my life. That was pretty clear early. What did your mom do for work? She worked in, like, jewelry, a jewelry store called Pearson Pagoda and then worked in the bread department at Wegmans. She, she worked, you know, mostly smaller jobs and did what she could. She was a single mom raising two kids. We moved out on her own early. So after, I would say maybe kindergarten of first grade, we got her own place and it was us three. Are you guys like lower class, middle class, upper class?

What would you describe? Oh, we didn't have money. That's for sure. I mean, we did have to hit food banks before. But for the most part, we had what we needed. You know, we lived a humble life and we didn't really want for much. And what about like high school? What's that like for you?

High school is when everything kind of went left for me. So, you know, I grew up as a basic, you know, basic childhood, nothing out of the ordinary. I was into skateboarding. I was into art. but my friends and I had gotten some regular mischief at our rival school. They had this greenhouse and we had broke some of the windows there. This was around the time I was 15. And we got caught, we got fined.

And I was stuck with this $700 fine. And I was thinking, man, how am I going to pay this? I don't have a job. I don't, you know. And I knew people who were selling drugs. And so on a whim, I just went to them and said, look, I have this fine. Can you help me? You know, maybe is this something I can try?

And that's when I end up getting like my first ounce of weed to start selling. And how old are you at this point? At this point, I'm 15, 16. So beginning of high school and you get exposed to this ounce of weed and you start selling it. Yeah. And how much money are you making? Well, initially, to pay off the fine, I think it took me only two weeks. So I had the money hidden and I was making the small payments thinking, you know, I can't tell, obviously my mother would never know.

She would know something happened if I just came up with the money in one shot. So I kept the small payments, didn't sell anymore, and then it just started coming back to me, like, I should do this one more time just to have some extra money and things like that. And within that year, I was making, I would say, like, 10 or 15K or something like that. And then maybe my second year, around the time I was 17, 18, but that's when I started seeing like 50. So you went from having no money, a poor family, very minimal items in your family, to now making all of this money. Yeah, I mean, for me, 50K wasn't a ton of money, but more than you had before, though. Absolutely. But I mean, I kept it all in a shoebox.

Like, I really didn't do much with it. Are you helping your mom out with bills at all? At the time, no, because so after the first year of me selling drugs, I ended up leaving. Like, our relationship became a bit constrained. Things weren't working out. And so I went to the other side of town to live with some friends, and I ended up staying with them for some time. and that's when, like, I started just adopting more and more criminal activities, carrying guns and things like that. The first time I was shot at, I was 16.

So immediately I was like, I think I'm going to start needing a weapon because, you know, I need to protect myself in this game. This is a bad neighborhood? I mean, it's a small town. I think every place has their bad areas. So in our town, this was considered a bad area. I mean, people were getting shot down there. People weren't being killed. But it wasn't anything in terms of the scope of the U.S., like it was ranked or anything.

It was more just like the people you were hanging out with and like the groups and they knew you were dealing drugs. The town's projects and things like that. And your mom had no idea what you were getting into. At the time, no. Even when I left, I don't think she had a clue. But slowly but surely, I started adapting more to the lifestyle. Like I said, by the time I was 18, I was wearing, you know, $12,000 bracelets. I was buying vehicles and things like that.

But I didn't have that scope of thinking that I could do something with. that money. My life was living in this town, in this microcosm, you know, buying things and blowing the money I was making pretty much. And you thought that was like the big thing because like that was a whole new experience for someone that young. What, um, what like what made the business get bigger? Why do you keep wanting to grow it? And do you have like partners in that scenario? Yeah, I was kind of working with a team and that's kind of where a lot of my trouble came for. So we had main guy, a main supplier that we were getting the weed from, and, you know, there was time we sold cocaine as well. But it seemed like the other guys on the team who were making money for this guy were the ones always getting into some drama or some trouble.

And then the rest of us has to come through and kind of participate in, you know, maybe jumping some people or, you know, we were getting into some shootings. And it was just a lot of the time I felt like I was a person that was always trying to help clean up someone else's mess. and I was pretty much out of my own trouble for the most part. I was kind of a quiet, you know, on the low style, making money. And again, like I wasn't really managing it great, I would say, at that age. Do you finish high school? Yeah, I finished high school on my own. And then I end up moving back in with family with my aunt, my sister.

Why do you have to move back in if you were doing so well? Again, I just didn't have that scope of, you know, I didn't want my own place at the time. I just thought, whatever, I can help out my aunt. you know she wasn't making a lot of money and i figured i could help pay some bills and you know be around my sister because you know i missed my family being away for some years are you and your sister close yeah yeah to the day we are definitely and back then you guys were close saw each other a lot did she know what you guys were getting or what you were getting into and the drug business yeah for sure she knew she didn't approve but she didn't really say much because things were going

well and even the problems that I was getting in again I was hiding from her she wasn't really aware you know maybe people were telling her some stories but she I think she would kind of brush them off like well he's okay so not that big of a deal now what kind of like drug business is this is this like what we see on TV like in power and stuff like that or is this no I mean mine was very straightforward and rudimentary I mean I would sell in school a lot I would hollow out a book take take weed in like that and when when I moved to the other side of the town in a in a in the bad neighborhood it was called five points in Bethlehem there we were selling cocaine and we were selling crack on the street like literally just meeting with crackheads there hand-to-hand you know small transactions

and periodically people who had wanted ounces or things like that we would make a single transaction with them but it was mostly on foot and in the car not anything complex and we were just again just stashing anything that we're like that you're on the one of the the mill drug dealer basically. Yeah, for sure. So let's fast forward to when you're 22 years old. Something happens that like changes your life forever. Can you walk us through that day? Yeah, sure. So this was Christmas Eve of 2006. I had just turned 21 that month prior in November. And my sister was in a relationship with this guy. I love this guy like a brother and lived with them for some time during the time I lived with my aunt. And their relationship went downhill over the

years and you know we grew a big disdain for each other so we end up getting in front of each other and into a confrontation with him his cousin his friend on christmas eve of o six and it resulted in in me shooting him and i end up shooting him two times in the arm and the leg which i didn't know at the time because it was dark so i wasn't sure what happened to him were you trying to like kill him or what was your intention of firing the gun yeah it was my it was my intent then to to kill him because, you know, we had got into this confrontation. You know, I knew there was weapons there, and that was my assumption. And we got into the car to leave.

The car got hit as we were pulling off. They were firing at you. No, no, no, no one got to fire anything. But they had struck the vehicle physically. And my sister had let go of the wheel. And at that point, I thought, okay, something's definitely going to happen here. Your sister was in vault, like she was there too while this was all happening. Yeah, it wasn't.

There was no plan for it to happen. it just escalated to that. Yeah. Is she like yelling at you while this is going on because that's her boyfriend? Actually, well, they were separated at the time. He had already, you know, moved on. He was with another woman. But I had jumped out of the vehicle at that time knowing, okay, this is it.

And I just start firing. And you don't know who you're shooting at. You're just firing? Oh, no, no. I knew. So I came running around the vehicle. He was backtracking. I fired two shots toward his direction.

And then there was other people outside. I didn't know if they were armed or what they had. So I fired a shot in that direction. And it happened so quick, my sister didn't even see it. So as soon as she went to open the door, I just pushed her door shut and we sped off. Yeah, that adrenaline rush, like when you're in the moment, had you ever shot at someone before in your life before that point? Yeah, at this point, there was a number of them.

Well, there were several, yeah. But thankfully, I had came out unscathed. And as far as I know, the others did as well. So this was like just part of your life? At this point it was. Yeah, it really was. And as soon as we pulled off, we had got about a mile away from the scene. The police were already storming.

And I had jumped out of the car and told her, look, you're never going to see me again. Because I didn't know what happened to him at the time. You know, for all I knew he was dead. So I jumped out of the car. She pulled off. I took the gun apart and threw it into a sewage drain. And as soon as I looked up, I saw three units just speeding right towards me. But in my mind, I knew, there's no way these guys are going to know that I just did this.

So I just took out my phone and I just stood there and I just started smiling and acting like I was joking with someone on the phone. When they're driving by it. And they just blazed right past me. And as soon as the third one did, I just started booking down the street to get. But you must have knew they were going to like tell on you. Like they were going to pin you as the person, right? Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I thought there was a chance he wasn't going to say anything,

but by the time we woke up Christmas morning, I had called a friend that I trusted, and he came to pick me up, nobody knew where I was at. And Christmas morning, yeah, I watched my face on the news saying, you know, I was wanted for an attempt to homicide. What a shitty way to spend Christmas. Yeah, it was shitty, man. So what, did you think that you may have killed him after you're running away?

Like, are you worried about what the situation is? So again, we had some people that I know I could trust and word got around quick that he was okay. So did that put your mind at ease a little bit? It did. And then it kind of made me feel like, okay, maybe there's a chance he's not going to say it was me. And, you know, when I saw my face, I was like, okay, well, I figured, you know, because even if he wouldn't have said anything, there was still other people there. I knew I knew it was a mistake. Do you think your sister would have told, too?

either way or no? Yeah, she waited until the next day. She had no choice. They have a, they have a kid together. So, you know, she was worried about losing her son through this. So obviously, you know, I just told her, you know, do whatever you have to do. I'm the one at fault here. I'm going to be accountable for it when the time comes. Do you talk to your mom about what happened to? Like, do you call her or anything? Initially, that next morning, since it was Christmas, I couldn't get a hold of a lawyer because I wanted some time. I wanted to talk because I was ignorant to the law. I had no idea what was going to happen to me on the legal lab. Well, you did

just try to kill some of it. Of course. But when I did call the next day after Christmas, I got a hold of a lawyer and I had, I didn't send any word to my family or anything. And the first thing that they told me was, look, this charge carries a 20 to 40 year sentence. And

I just hung the phone up. Because you asked them, you said it in like third person like, hey, I know someone or whatever that went through this and that's what they told you. Yeah. Well, he just said, you know, if you blow trial on this, this is what the sentence is. And I had other charges stacked on top, how they usually do ag assaults, possessing instruments of a crime, etc. So I knew I needed time. So I didn't want to turn myself in right away. I didn't have an idea of how long

I would be running. I surely didn't expect to be running for 13 months, but that's, that is how it turned out. So what's life like on the run for over a year? Like, what were you doing on a daily basis? How are you making money? You got to be like a constant fear of your life. Yeah, for the first few months, I was afraid to leave and I pretty much just shacked up at this place. I did some moving around and I was still thinking, okay, I have to find a way to make money, so I was still selling drugs, but just through other people, just a few people that I did trust. But anytime I moved anywhere, I would have a police scanner. I'd be wearing a bulletproof because I was worried about retaliation. You know, these were a grown man that were upset with me

and, you know, word was getting back. Look, this is what's going to happen to you when we see you, I was expecting to be shot, really. And so I would move around with weapons, move around with the vest, and it was hell. And I knew after a few months I needed to get out. So I found a connection in Philadelphia for fake IDs, and I pretty much set up about 30 of them. And I started booking bus tickets to go across the United States. So my, for example, I would book a bus ticket under the identification of like Michael Morales to maybe Ohio. As soon as I would get to Ohio, I would get to Ohio, I would dump that ID and pick up like Joshua Castillo to go to Houston because I was afraid if they would have found out who I was on the first leg, I thought maybe by the time,

you know, maybe they'll think that's all they're looking for. They wouldn't guess to think of another name. How did you come up with all this? Like, where do you get the idea that too? I was a thinker, yeah. It just, I had time to, I had time to think and I've really, I've always had awareness and an understanding of, okay, if you're going to do something, you do it smart. I was always a nerd when I was growing up. You know, I was big on the books. I wasn't, I wasn't partying or doing anything like that until I fell into that lifestyle around, you know, 18 to 20. Wow, that's crazy.

Were you talking to your mom at all during you being on the run? So her birthday was in February, like two months after that. And I talked to her one time and then. What does she say to you? Is she telling you to like turn yourself in? Distraught, yeah. Like she's classic Italian, you know, high stress, high anxiety. just, she was worried. You know, obviously, she doesn't know where I am, what I'm doing, what's

going to happen to me. She knows the police are looking for me. So, yeah, I put her through a lot with that, but I tried to keep it minimal and told her, look, don't worry, I'm okay. You know, you're not going to hear from me, but I'll send word every once in a while. Everything's all right. And do you have a conversation with your sister at all? Not so much, because I, I, we kind of got disconnected during that time. You know, I think she was obviously, she wasn't expecting me to do that. So I think, you know, she had some feelings about it naturally. Like hatred type feelings?

I think there was some, some anger there for sure. I mean, this was the person that she loved for a long time and it didn't work out. But yeah, we, you know, I knew what she ended up telling the police and I felt some type of way about that as well. But over time, you know, that we build that back up. all it's forgiven. Time heals all. Absolutely. That's good.

So when you're on the run, are they actively searching for you? Or is it just like one of those things where the man hunts off and now they're just, you know, if you come up somewhere, then they'll arrest you. Yeah, I only had two major incidents. There was one a few months into me still being in my town where I heard them on the scanner saying, you know, okay, we got word. This is where he was and it was legit. And you actually heard that on the scanner?

Yeah. That's crazy. Heart dropped and I got out of there in time. Second time I had made my way to California. I had some family and some friends out there that I was staying with. And there was an incident where I was in the house and two police just zoomed into the driveway and I had ran out of the house then. Now, I don't know 100% if they were coming for me, but... Someone probably snatched.

I was the only one home. So there was no one there to answer the door. But, you know, my father is a quiet, older guy, there would be no reason for police to be there. And I haven't, you know, I was able to escape. What does your dad think about this? He just told me, take the time that you need, but you need to go in. He wanted me to just go in and get it over with. He said, the sooner you get it over with, the sooner you'll be home. What was your mindset? Were you planning on being on the run for the rest of your life? Or did you have the intention to turn yourself and face the consequences of your

actions? My original plan was, let me make enough money to either put money away, so I can be good after I do these years or pay him to not come to court because by then after six months of being on the run I had you know I'm by myself all the time so I started studying what my options were and I knew at a preliminary hearing if I could get him to not show or to you know recant his statement that I would be able to be free are you ever thinking like you want to go kill him to solve your problems it did cross my mind the number of times yeah because that's that was my downfall because as I was trying to make the money in california I started running into more problems which drove me down to move to texas and i was

running down there and again no matter where I went the problems didn't follow I would say but I was creating them being the being the person that I was at the time well you were still like in that drug lifestyle in the in the game it's all I had you know I couldn't work a normal job because of who I was and I was, you know, afraid that, I mean, I didn't have social security numbers, so I couldn't use the fake IDs to get some bank accounts and things like that. So I was, it's all I had to survive at the time. When are you finally caught and arrested? How does that go down? So I returned home and... Why would you go back home? I returned home because I was thinking, you know, maybe I need to do something more to him or, and I had money then. So you were planning to

get rid of him at that point? Or offer him the money. That was, that was, that was, that was, that was, was my original intent. And I thought, okay, some of my friends had a case that they beat at the preliminary hearing, the same example that I thought that I could do. But it turned out the DA had refiled these charges against them. It was two guys. And the police came to pick them up, and I was with them. So that's how I got caught.

We were in a car. The police swarmed the car. I had got out, ran into my friend's house, whose mother had just been. and just so happened at that moment to be walking out of the door. And I had a 40 caliber on me then, some drugs. And I went through my same motions. I got the drugs down the toilet. I couldn't get out of the back door because they already had units back there.

So I started taking the gun apart, left it under some towels, and took my jacket off. And when the police flooded in there, I tried to walk downstairs. Like, I was just some normal guy who was living in the house, rubbing my eyes. Like, oh, what's going on? But they knew you was here. And the one cop was like the main cop that was our representative in high school. And he just shouted my name sold out.

He was like, that's Josh Holy. And then everyone just like started putting their guns out and were just, it was crazy. So they pulled you out of the house, brought you the police station. I'm guessing they don't give you bond at all. Dude, they were applauding when they brought me in there. It was just embarrassing. Wow. Yeah, we, yeah, they brought me in.

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and be sure to check out all the special offers. Tirec.com, the way tire buying should be. They did give me like a quarter of a million dollar bail, but I didn't post it. Does your mom and sister come visit you at all? Yeah, so I was in the county jail there for about 14 months, and they were coming to see me, yeah, because it was only a 20-minute drive. And that was your first time ever in prison before?

My first time, yeah, I was in Maxim Security in the local county. What was that like for you? It was an experience. I mean, I was connected by then, so when I came in, I did know a lot of people, so it did make it easier. but yeah it was my first time ever be in trouble really strange process by then i was pretty numb to to fighting and to seeing things happen so i kind of feel like i was prepared but it was just the uncertainty of you know i have to wait a year and a half to get sentenced how long am i going to have to

be here now what is the actual charge like that you're charged with or charges the first set was attempted homicide two counts aggravated assault and possessing instruments of a crime and then when I got caught, they did find the gun in there taking apart, so I got charged with that as well. And that was a different gun than what you used to actually shoot them. Did they ever find that gun or no? It's probably still in that sewage drain to this day, you know? They never asked for it when they brought you in?

No, no. I'm surprised they didn't ask for you. You would have thought that they wanted the gun. I think they knew it was long gone, you know, a year later. Yeah. So what's like the time frame? I know you had talked to that initial lawyer, but once you actually get charged and everything, what time frame are they saying you're facing now?

So it was only maybe five or six months before I end up getting the preliminary hearing. He showed up, everything bound over. And my first initial offer was a 10 to 20 years. 10 to 20 years. Yeah, and I turned it down. Why did you turn it down? I just felt like me being a first time offender. My lawyer did advise, like, look, there are mandatory minimums for this.

Five to 10 years is the least you can get. So I was shooting for, okay, let's get as close to that as possible because I had no record. And I thought it was going to play in my favor. And it did, thankfully. They came back and offered me a 7 to 14 a couple months later. I said no. And once they put the 5 to 10, I knew I couldn't get any less than that. So I immediately just took it.

Why do you think they didn't just say, oh, he fuck it, he didn't take it or going to trial? Because the evidence is probably pretty clean against you, right? I mean, they had a clear case, no doubt. So what do you think it was that they were, well, to play ball in that aspect because that's a big gap going from you know 20 years down to to seven yeah but i think the the the process of them going through the events of a trial is really expensive for the city and they they kind of you know weigh people out and and try to make them really think and i just think it they knew already me going in like okay we'll give this kid a five

to ten it's his first time but let him sweat it out let him feel like he he has to go to trial And also, I think they were giving me a little bit of rope to hang myself as well. Like, go ahead, say no, and go to trial. Then you're going to get roofed and get the 20, and that'll be on you. Now, at sentencing, does the victim speak against you at all? I think in my sentencing, his mother did. And it was completely understandable. You know, obviously people are going to, you know, feel a certain type of way about you do something to their son.

What about your sister? Was that impactful at all if she spoke? Did that help you? She didn't speak there. And she, yeah, she went through a lot emotionally, I would say, from it. It was a pretty traumatic event for her. Did you guys ever have, or ever had the chance to have, like, a sit-down conversation about, like, what happened and, like, just talk the emotions about it?

Yeah, yeah. Years later, after I got out. But during, you know, we were disconnected for some years. And then, you know, I just decided, look, as I was changing, because I did go through a serious transformation in there and to understand look i need to be living a different life i need to be a better person and it starts with you know the people around you and and who you are so there was forgiveness to be to be given and to myself and to the people around me and i was supposed to ask and you know i was open to ask for it as well so and how does your mom react to to you getting sentenced yeah she was

she was there in the courtroom yeah wow for sure how much time did they end up giving you Five to ten, yeah. So it's just a, it's like a group together. It's not like a set time. Yeah, so usually the way they sentence is they give you a front number and a back number. Mine was a five to ten, meaning the minimum I can do is five years, so I have to complete that. But if things don't go my way and I'm, you know, not not improving as a person or not showing that I'm ready to be released, they can keep me there up to 10 years if they wanted to.

Wow. But five years is my first opportunity to see parole. Any probation at all? No, no. It was just the parole. So by the time I had went through my jail sentence, I still had five years of parole once I got out. Because you got out at the five year mark. Yeah.

Now, how old are you when you get the sentence? At that time, I'm 22. And where do they move you to? Like, what type of prison do you go to after? So I went to state prison. Normally in Pennsylvania, we go through classification. So you go to our, everyone in the state who goes upstate will go to, Greatford, which is like the level five supermax, you'll go to Camp Hill, which is another

high security prison. And there you go through a classification process to decide what is your home jail going to be where you'll do the remaining years. So where did you go? You went to the max? Yeah, I went to Grateford and Camp Hill for a couple months each. And then I went to Cold Township was my home jail. What types of people are like house there? Anything you could think of, man. I mean, there's murderers, there's rapists, there's people who have killed their kids who have starved their children. It's, yeah, about anything you could think of. What's it like to be like 22, 23 years old, that young going into a prison surrounded by those individuals? Yeah, it was hell, man. Honestly, I mean, I didn't get into too much trouble while I was there

because I wasn't involved in gangs and I wasn't involved with any particular cultural group. I'm Hawaiian and Italian, so it's not like I was with, you know, how many Hawaiians do you know? That's a good combination. But for the most part, I was by myself. Did they think you're Spanish at all? You kind of, yeah, and I learned Spanish while I was there. I kind of, you know, that was a big thing for me to try and learn some languages. I worked a lot with the Muslims to read and write and learn some Arabic and the Spanish guys to learn

Spanish. So you were staying out of trouble basically in prison? For the most part. So you gave up, like your mentality changes over that, like you're being on the run, getting to prison. Like, you're not in the same mindset. In the first few years of me being in prison, I still had that same. I was fighting. I was going, I went to the hole a few times. You know, I was selling drugs and things like that. I was getting in the prison. But after, after I got upstate, there was a pretty pivotal moment where I started to realize,

okay, I need to make a turn. Interesting. So when you were saying you're selling drugs in prison, can you describe that process, how you get them in, how you sold them, what, people would give you all of that yeah so it happened majority of it happened while I was in the county so I had some connections where we were selling tobacco they today we have these pouches of tobacco the loose tobacco that you can roll cigarettes with yeah we used to get that in the feds and roll it in paper and stuff so on the street they're like 89 cents and what I had found a connection who could bring them into the prison and they were charging me a thousand dollars to bring in a hundred of these pouches and these pouches could go for $50 a piece in the jail.

So I basically would get these pouches, stash them in the insulation of my cell, because I'd end up paying for a tool that had the vent, like the vent that was on my wall. I paid for this tool that I can undo the vent, stash these pouches in the insulation, and I started selling them to inmates using like a number system because I can't speak with names on the phone, on the prison phone. So what I would do for you, for example, if you wanted to buy a pouch off of me for $50, I would tell you, okay, Ian, your number's $42. I need you to tell your people out there, put $50 in an envelope with the number 42 off and drop it off at, you know, this address. So when I'd get out of my cell in the evening, I'd call my friend and he'd say, hey, what's going on? And I'd say, who showed up today? And he would say, 42 and 37. So once I knew I had your money, then, you know, I'd give you your pouch.

Oh, wow. That's a pretty intricate system. Yeah, it was nice. And then eventually I started making good money in there. I think in the last nine months I was there, I made about 10K. So you're just a natural hustler in that sense. Yeah, even when I was a kid, man, in school, I used to like draw tattoos on people. And, you know, in high school I was changing people's report cards for money. I was always trying to think of some sort of hustle. That was definitely in me.

What are like some of the other like hustles that guys are doing for contraband at the prison you were at? Because you couldn't have been like the only game in town either. Right, yeah. So there was other people doing that. They were selling individual rolled cigarettes. Other people were bringing in marijuana. You know, we had a long run of deer park water bottles that were full of vodka for, you know. How did you get those in?

Same, same game. People connected in the kitchen, you know, they would. There's always a connection for something in prison. Yeah, for sure. It's all there. Wow. And what about like a prison nickname? Does anyone call you anything in prison?

I didn't have anything. I mean, when I was upstate, just amongst the Spanish crew I was in, they used to call me a loba solitario. So you did ride with like the Spanish people. Sometimes, yeah. I mean, for the most part, a lot of them were my cellmates. And yeah, they used to call me that, which meant like the lone wolf because I was always by myself. And you didn't have any hard time at all being that young in prison? Yeah, yeah, for sure. It was challenging. I mean, I got into some bad fights there. I did, you know, I did time in the hole, which again, that was also. an eye-opener. What's like the hole like in a Pennsylvania state prison?

And for those who don't know what the hole is, it's the shoe or solitary or whatever you want to call it. Right. Yeah. So for people listening, the whole is basically solitary confinement. You go down, it's away from general population.

General population in a prison gets out a couple times a day. They get to go to the yard. They get to walk to the chow hall. People in the hole are in one cell for 23 hours a day. You're most likely living through this small slot in the door. or the bars and you get a shower once every few days. For me, it was once every three days. And yeah, it's just you get an hour out to walk in this little small cage.

And, you know, a lot of the worst of the worst are down there. How are you passing the time? For the most part, I'm reading. I'm reading a lot, studying a lot. You probably had a lot of time to reflect, too. Did you get to reflect in your head on what exactly happened that landed you there? like the shooting of your actions, their actions, the aftermath? Yeah, for sure.

I mean, I developed a ton of patience while I was there, but I think really the pivotal moment for me was a lot of the violence I ended up seeing there. And there's one time I can tell you I was out in the yard. And I remember we have a weight pit out there, which is basically a cement slab that's surrounded by a pavilion, a roof, with weight machines attached to the ground because we couldn't have weights in prison because, you know, people would get smashed with them naturally. So the weight pit was the place where everyone got into the biggest fights because naturally people filling in this pit, it covers the

border of the pavilion. So the COs and the guards that are on their stations can't see inside. So most of the time people would fight and get in, you know, stabbing and things like that would all happen in the pit so people wouldn't get caught. And I remember there was a time where I was going to do my set of pull-ups and this fight broke out. Two of these guys were stabbing this guy. And they were getting him good, man. And I remember going up on this pull-up bar doing my set and I was watching this guy. And, you know, normally you see someone fighting internally, even if you don't show it externally.

Internally, you're like, holy shit. Like things are going down right now. You get nervous. Your heartbeat changes. I just remember mine didn't almost almost to the point where I couldn't even it might have it might as well not even been happening. That's how calm I was. And I remember finishing my set and looking at this guy and he hit the ground and he, you know, he was trying to do his best wipe and it just kept coming out. And I went into my cell that afternoon.

I thought, man, like what the hell am I becoming to the point where I can see stuff like that and not even be moved? Like this is definitely a problem. So that awareness in me is what made me really start reflecting and understanding like, okay, I should be doing something else because this is a dead end. And did you stick to that, like going forward with the rest of your prison sentence? Yeah, 100%. 100%. And that happened right after I got into the fight and went down to the hole.

I got sentenced three months down there. And, yeah, everything just changed at that point. I was always studious while I was there and learning, playing chess, working out, but my mindset really started shifting on that. That was probably my last two years. Do you think if that incident never happened, you never saw that, then your life would be different now? Or do you think you eventually would have got it through your head that this is not what you're supposed to be doing and you want to mature and grow? Yeah, I think over the years, people were dropping pieces that, like older people were giving me those gems of wisdom to do the right thing.

And I think it was just a culmination of right before that event happened, I was right on the cusp there. And that's all I needed. I needed one more thing to just push me over to the other side to understand. Was your family coming to visit you at all? Yeah, they were coming. And that was rough. Your sister too? Yes.

She came to visit you in prison. Oh, yeah, many times. Wow. What was that like first face-to-face conversation with her like? Yeah, it's, you know, it's just a very strange feeling to. It's a strange situation. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

And, you know, we, our relationship, it's found, you know, especially with family, the foundation is love. So it's easy, you know, to push past that anger and, you know, all those other feelings are just temporary. So, you know, we got through the first few and after that, everything was, you know. Do you think she wanted to hate you but couldn't because your family and that love was deep rooted in that? I mean, I think she understood that all I was trying to do was protect her. and do what I did out of love for her. And, you know, if I didn't love her, I wouldn't have even been there, you know.

I wouldn't have cared about what was happening with her. Would you do it again if that opportunity happened? I mean, I think I had other choices that night, you know. I think I definitely had other choices, better choices. But at the same time, I don't think I would be in the position I'm in to, if I wouldn't have made, if I would have made a different choice. And I kind of believe that everything that I've gone through previous, has prepared me to be the person that I am.

So I kind of believe that's just how God works sometimes. We have to go through that pain and that fire to come out forged. Absolutely. You have to go through those like that tough shit in life because that's what makes like our stories, individuals like us, like inspirational to others because people see that that you go through those tough times and you come out better and stronger and you like don't let it define you. And that's like the purpose of this podcast.

That's the purpose of my life. And hopefully like others that see that. you know, pick up on that and whatever they're struggling with, whatever they're going through, they could take that and turn that into a motivator factor. Right. And you're doing great work, man. That's what if we can change one person through this, I mean, it's mission accomplished. Thank you, man. Now, how much time do you end up spending? Like day to day, what's the total amount of time? Is it five years? Is it more? Is it less? Yeah, I spent the full five. And I got out on the fifth year to the day. And what year was that when you got out? January 30th, 2013. And how old?

do you when you got out? At that time, I'm 27. What were some like hard adjustments you had to make getting out of prison? Yeah, I mean, it was a different world for me. I just felt like everything was first, the clothes were very different. Everyone was wearing fit clothes. I didn't really understand that. My friends bought me a lot of clothes and I was like, I don't think I could wear any of the stuff. The jeans seemed too tight. And the culture also was a lot. I just felt like the culture was so sexualized and it was just a different thing for me and I knew okay I'm just going to stick with my same circle some of my friends were professional fighters so I got into the boxing gym with them you were boxing yeah I mean not not to compete but it was just that camaraderie and to keep you

disciplined and like that those prison workouts and fitness to keep me somewhere where I could still be strong and I could still be tough in a way but on the right path and that help your mindset big time Because there was people in there that were, again, on the cusp of the streets. A lot of people used fighting as an outlet to stay out of trouble. So I was able to start connecting with the youth there and help guide them and show them some of the things that I've been through for them to not have to experience. What kind of job do you get into after getting out? Or are you trying to get back into the drug game? What are you doing?

Yeah, I never look back. Thank God. So you're done with the drug game? As soon as I came out, I've walked a straight line ever since then. Even the money, like, you weren't thinking, I don't, I can't work a regular job. I've always been a hustler. I need to go, you know, get that drug money again, make lots of that. That was never, that didn't pass your mind.

No, it passed many times. It ran laughs around me. So what kept you grounded, did not do that? Just to understand that I kind of, you know, my family was there for me. I had a close circle of friends that supported me, and I just, I just felt like I didn't want to let anybody down with that. Now I have people that have seen me go through hell and I came out okay. Like people believe in me now and I wanted to deliver and I wanted to, I really wanted to get back for the time that I had lost. So I started working a small job at like a glass tempering plant with my stepfather.

And then I joined this logistics company, United States Cold Storage. They're just a warehousing company and I was driving a forklift there and their freezers, you know, picking orders and things for a normal. wage. And something I'm like curious about with your story is what's it like to have like an attempted murder charge on your record? Like because that shows up if someone searches you right? Oh yeah. I have to live with that forever. There's no there's no way I'm getting that. How does that affect your life? Like even when you're in the early stages of looking for your job and dating, anything like that like it were in 2023 like anyone that's going on a date or something is searching the name. Oh yeah. That's got to what what are some challenges you've

faced with that. Yeah, I've been through, I've been through all that. No matter how far I've came in my career, I feel like I'm doing well now. I'm a product manager at the same company, you know, designing the software that runs their warehouses all over the U.S. And I can't, I'm like permanently banned from Airbnb, for example. I can never book one of those. You can never get an Airbnb. Never. They per-they deleted my account immediately and told me. They background truck, I guess. Yeah, even I tried to book one in Europe, same. I can't get it. I can't get even a one-bedroom apartment. in most places because I can't pass the background check. So there's, I mean, I've been through all of those definitely meeting new people

when they find out that judgment right away. Yeah, what's dating like? How do you go about that with someone with a record like that? Yeah, well, thankfully I didn't date too much. I mean, I came home for the first six months. I was really, really focused on just training and I reconnected with a childhood friend of mine her and I end up getting in a relationship for the next nine years so I didn't have to and she knew me long before that and didn't judge me on the situation so yeah we ended up getting married

we were married for a few years and that that that didn't work out so we divorced just over a year ago year and a half but yeah I mean plenty of my friends are in the same boat they're meeting people and then their parents find out and they're not approving and how do you deal with that like that's got to be mentally draining when that when that happens yeah for sure i mean i think at the end of the day this this every decision you make comes at a price and i think you to come to the realization of look there's no there's nothing i could do to get rid of this aside from like a presidential pardon you know this isn't something i could get expunge i have to live with it so you know when one door closes we just look for another one what do you do about the apartment situation

Thankfully, my first apartment, I ran into the owner of the apartment building, and I had did a speech on this same story in my school. I had went to college and videotaped it, and I told him, look, you know, I made a mistake when I was young. I'm trying to do the right thing now. Can you take a couple minutes and watch this video before you run my background check? And he watched it, and he was like, okay. And I stayed at that place for like years because I knew I couldn't get any. PTSD to go somewhere else. Nobody wanted me, man.

Nobody wanted me, but. Yeah, I always get nervous when I'm like filling out applications for stuff because I don't know if they'll reject me or not. And I've been like fortunate and lucky enough to like always not have issues like that I know a lot of individuals have with felonies on their record. Yeah, I've been. It's scary, man. Many a times.

That shit goes with you for the rest of your life. And I couldn't imagine like having it like an attempted murder charge. Yeah. On there. Like you Google search you and then that. pops up and that just like and it's not you because like that doesn't match your personality like that's someone from so long ago we're talking over a decade ago now and like that's still like like the system needs to change in that sense like you're not that same person anymore yeah i wish there was a way that

they could do some sort of evaluations or i think if you just you know you keep talking about it and you keep sharing your story and people like i think it's like important to like show people the real you and have those conversations and show people your personality. Yeah. And that, you know, will help, I guess, change their opinions in a way. Like, a lot of people that I'll meet for the first time, they have a certain opinion on me based on, like, social media or what they've heard about me. But when they meet me, it's like, it's totally different once someone genuinely gets to know me and takes the time. Right.

And if someone's not willing to take the time to get to know you, then, you know, fuck them. They don't deserve a place in your life. Yeah, we become a number of people. over our lifetime, so many different people, to the point where you can't even recognize who you were at a prior time. So I think it's important people get that second chance, no doubt. What about your community? How is your community looking at you and responding to you when you got out? Because it's a smaller community. What's that like? Yeah, when I got out, I wasn't, I wasn't really feeling the love. I would say, you know, I stuck with my circle and I was steadfast there because, you know, people were kind of

of thinking they see the recidivism rate, they understand people who go to jail, you know, three out of every four who leave, go back within the first three years. So most of the people were thinking I was just going to be a statistic. Like it's only a matter of time. He's going to get back involved with the same people. And by the grace of God, you know, a lot of the people that I hung out with that were doing the wrong thing respected the fact that I didn't want to do anything anymore. And I didn't run into many issues.

They still have love for me, but they understood and that it could only be. at a distance. Did you get to make amends or make peace with your sister's boyfriend? We did, we did. So over the years of me being there, I prayed for him a lot, you know, like, and I let my anger and things that I had for him go. And I remember by impulse, again, this is how I believe God works. I went to Wawa to get a sandwich. So for people that don't know, Wawa is just a local sandwich store, a gas station that we get food at. You make your order on this computer. You have to go pay for the sandwich.

And one day I was in Wawa. This is why I was still on parole. I went paid for my sandwich and I walked back to wait. He's there standing there waiting for his sandwich. And he's with, you know, he had moved on. He's with remarried. He's with his wife. And he came over to me and said, look, you know,

is there a way we can talk? And at first I was resistant to it. But then I realized, look, this is a moment that, you know, I've been preparing for it for a long time. This is a chance for me to be a man. You probably rehearse that in your head a lot, what you would say. And I just kept thinking, you know, I'm on camera right now. I'm on state parole as well.

Like if something goes wrong here, I'll be back in the mountains like the next day. So I did what I could to protect myself in the sense of I said, look, if you want to talk, let's go in my car. You know, at least so I could have some sort of, you know, something, him being in my vehicle. And so, yeah, it was a surreal moment. You know, we walked to my car, I got in the driver's side, he got in the passenger side, we faced each other, and we just said, okay, you know, let's talk. And we talked it over. It wasn't a long conversation, but enough that we were able to apologize to each other, you know, we shook hands, we hugged each other and we said, look, we don't have to be friends, but at the same time, if we see each other, you know, especially for the sake of his son, my nephew, you know, it's not going to be a problem. It's okay. Things, you know, things are forgiven. And I have to be. I have. I have not seen him since. No, that's at least good closure to the story, though.

Yeah, for sure. And this was, this was maybe like five years ago, five or so years ago. And now they're not even together. He went separate ways from your sister. No, now they're, yeah, they're just co-parenting. My nephew's 18 now. So do you ever think back and you're like, wow, it wasn't even worth it in a sense. They didn't even end up together.

Like, whatever that was, it's so small compared to, like, the bigger picture. Like, imagine if he had, like, died or something. And those two weren't even meant to be together. So like it just puts things into perspective. It could have went many ways. Yeah, definitely could have went in many ways. But I'm thankful, you know, we all came out of it and we're all still here. And, you know, my nephew's okay.

How's your relationship with like your mom now? It's great. Yeah. It's really good. My family's really happy for me now that I'm doing the right thing. And, you know, I've got a career. I went to school. I got two degrees and, you know, kind of broke that curse with our family.

family generationally, they weren't big on college when we were coming up. So I'm just trying to build, build on and just add value to the family now, especially after all that I've taken away over the years. And you've been able to create a really good career for yourself now. After everything, what's the job you're into now? Yeah, so the job I do now, like I said, I started off as a forklift driver for this company. And I actually worked for them for a number of years, just picking orders in the freezer, but, you know, learned about their business. And I basically had a dream one night that I had an app for this company. I had made this app that did X, Y, and Z. And so I woke up in the middle of the night and I thought, look, I'm going to write this down. This is a good idea.

And I wasn't a technical guy. I didn't know how to code, but I was able to go online and get images and, like, build a prototype in a way, enough that I can give a presentation to my general manager. So I presented this idea to him on my day off. I asked him for five minutes and he loved the idea and said, look, I'm not a technical guy, but let me send us up to our corporate headquarters. You know, let him look at it. And by the time I had got home, I had an email from the vice president, like, hey, can you come up here on Friday? We want to see what you got. So I was like, holy shit, this is the place that runs like 45 of our warehouses. So I went up there, you know, bought a suit, went up there, tried to look professional, gave a presentation. They loved it. The idea didn't take

off, but it got me in the door to corporate as like a quality assurance tester. And that's when I realized, okay, I need to push hard on on college here. So I went to college for computer science. I ended up finishing with a general studies. But yeah, walk the ranks through software development with the company. And now I'm managing and designing the product, the system that runs all of our warehouses. That's awesome, man. So, like, with having this job and stuff and it's going so well, do you ever get, like, hesitant about sharing your story, like, coming on doing things like these or going on social media to talk about it? For sure. It was a balancing act because it wasn't something I thought, you know, maybe I shouldn't be shouting this from the mountaintops, like working at this place. But then I came to the realization, look, what I want to do in my life is be comfortable, but I, and I want to, you know, work to my potential. but I also want to help people and I want to affect people and I have a story that I know

that really can help people. So I kind of just said, look, whatever path happens, let it happen, I know my heart's in the right place, my intentions are in the right place. And as long as that's intact, I'm not worried about, you know, what happens with work or anything, honestly. Have you gotten any, like, backlash openly talking about it? No, thank God I haven't. I mean, people at my job slowly finding out more. Do they ask, like when people, people, find out you've been to prison. Like I know with me, everyone's super curious. They ask questions. Yeah, when people that have never been to prison before meet someone that's been in prison,

there's like a light bulb goes off and they start asking, what are like some of the questions that you get? You know, have you ever seen, you know, people, did you ever see anybody die? Like, have you ever seen anybody get stabbed? Drop the soap. Yeah, yeah, all sorts of crazy shit. Yeah, they come out of the woodworks. It's comedy. But at the same time, it's through no fault of their own. I try to give them the benefit of the doubt. You know, there's things that you're going to learn on that side that you'll never learn on this side and you can't expect them to know. So I try to. I think people are just curious and like they don't mean to do wrong.

They're just like genuinely curious about these stories. I think that's why there's like a market for talking about things like this. For sure. Because it's like something that so many people go to, but the majority don't. So it's just like interesting. It's like a life within a life, like a different planet and people are just like fascinated by that. Oh yeah. And there's that mystique behind it because, you know, what's happening there and people don't have that insight or, you know, most people who are doing the right thing don't have friends that have done some long time.

If you could go back to that 22-year-old self, the night of the shooting, and you were able to stand right next to yourself before you pulled that trigger, what would you say to get that person to not pull that trigger? I would have told him, you know, you're about to pay like a. price that you have no idea how how high you're you're about to go through some real hell here and and i think i would have told him there there definitely is another way that you can still come out on top and not have to suffer as much as as you did no doubt about it and if you could take it back would you or do you think it defined you as who you are today if i you know i'd love to say i'd love to say I would, but I just think everything, every even turn that I've made on a street in my car has prepared me to be, you know, in the state that I'm in. I'm in, I couldn't,

I really couldn't be happier with the way things are right now. You know, I'm working as hard as I possibly can. You know, I'm at peace with, with everything that has happened. And again, my heart and my intention is in the right place. And I just feel like, as long as I'm leading with that that for me is is the pinnacle that's awesome man well josh thank you for coming out here on the show today it's been great talking with you we appreciate you sharing your story where could people find you at uh people can find me on instagram at no underscore vember but no is kno w like no because every month for me is you know a chance to learn and a chance to grow so and i was born in november and you're growing your social media pages like you're into like travel and and whatnot like yeah so my my

My big passion is traveling the world. You know, I get to see a lot of different countries through my job. So in late February, I started, converted my page into like a personal blog, give travel advice, advice about what to do in other countries, some tips, some hacks and things like that. So people are taking interest in it. So go follow me there, check me out. Has the criminal record effect you're traveling to other countries at all? Not yet.

I don't think we get into Canada, right? Canada, we need to pay like 10 grand to get it. Yeah, you have to like contact. the consulate or something oh yeah what about other countries european countries anything like that have you ran into any issues none yet so far you know i've been to places like chetchia spain poland ukraine do you research to make sure you don't get jammed up or anything like you cautious about that oh yeah oh yeah and so far i haven't i haven't ran into any roadblocks thankfully that's good well hopefully we don't see you on the news or anything like that only for the good shit man

thank you man appreciate having you appreciate you man thanks for having me brother