Locked In with Ian Bick - I Spent 25 Years In Prison — It Turned Me Into An Animal | Benjamin McChesney

Episode Date: November 19, 2025

Ben McChesney spent 25 years behind bars, serving time in more than a dozen state and federal prisons across the country — from low-level facilities to some of the toughest penitentiaries in America. His story is one of chaos, survival, and defiance. After being accused of stealing several pallets of firearms in what became one of the largest gun heists in his state, Ben went on the run to Mexico for two years before being captured. Acting as his own attorney, he fought multiple cases, beat a federal kidnapping charge, and survived years of violence and transfers across 14 federal prisons. Inside, he ran underground poker tables, fought predators, and lived by his own code. Raw, unfiltered, and brutally honest, Ben’s story exposes the reality of long-term prison life, corruption, and what it truly takes to survive 25 years in the system. #LockedInWithIanBick #PrisonStories #TrueCrime #LifeInPrison #RedemptionStory #RealStories #PrisonLife #SurvivingPrison Thank you to BLUECHEW for sponsoring this episode: Visit https://bluechew.com/ and use promo code LOCKEDIN at checkout to get your first month of BlueChew & pay five bucks for shipping. Connect with Ben McChesney: Youtube: https://youtube.com/@allamericanconvict?si=DLcG3y85Yk9hbX3g Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/allamericanconvictofficial?igsh=MTc3bDNhb21qajdnag== Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@allamericanconvic?_r=1&_t=ZT-91HyOZ4qsWr Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5DoYIuib0HYU65WDZpoyLc Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro: From Wyoming State Prison to Federal Time 02:40 – Growing Up in Montana & Florida: Early Chaos Begins 06:00 – Family Life, Childhood Trauma & First Trouble 12:00 – Institutionalized Young: Juvenile Facilities & Reform Schools 19:00 – Early Criminal Mindset: Manipulation, Hustling & Survival 25:00 – Wild Behavior, Theft & the Road That Led to Prison 32:00 – First Adult Sentence: Inside Wyoming State Prison 39:00 – Maximum Security Life: Violence, Chaos & Prison Reality 46:00 – Solitary Confinement, Instigating & Survival Tactics 55:00 – Negotiating with the Warden & Gaining Prison Status 01:00:00 – Released from Wyoming: Back to the Streets 01:08:00 – Federal Case: Conspiracy Charges & Facing the Feds 01:15:00 – Federal Prison Journey: Medium Security to Camp 01:19:00 – Smuggling, Schemes & Controversy in Camp Life 01:25:00 – Fights, Transfers & Federal Prison Politics 01:32:00 – Sex Offenders, Prison Justice & Yard Rules 01:41:00 – Books, Mindset & Turning Life Around 01:46:00 – Beating a Case & Marriage Problems After Prison 01:54:00 – Financial Trouble & Planning a Major Gun Heist 02:03:00 – Gun Heist Fallout, Relationship Chaos & On the Run 02:13:00 – Life on the Run: Hiding in Mexico 02:27:00 – Captured in Mexico & Extradited Back to the U.S. 02:55:00 – Legal Battles: Kidnapping Charges & Polygraph Test 03:03:00 – Federal Trial, Sentencing & Wild Prison Stories 03:17:00 – Reentry, Parole & Learning to Live Free Again 03:24:00 – Staying Out for Good: Lessons, Redemption & Moving Forward Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at MintMobile. And so I went to Wyoming State Prison. My first day there, I threw up one of those big coffee irons of boiling water on a guy. Do you think getting that taste of prison at such a young age helped you later on in life when you were in prison? So I threw a whole bunch of rolls of toilet paper under the door. It was a real tall door there.

I threw them all under there and I lit them on fire. Do you feel mentally sane in the moment? Like, what's going through your mind? Man, Ian, I'll be honest with you, bro. I just, it's like you become kind of like an animal in there. Ben McChazanee spent 25 years locked up serving time in full. 14 different federal prisons after pulling off one of the biggest gun heist in his state. He went on the run to Mexico, fought his own federal cases, and survived years inside one of

the most dangerous prisons in America. This is one of the wildest prison stories you'll ever hear. Ben, welcome to Lockton, man. Thanks so much for coming out here today. Do you actually fly in from Montana? Is that where you still live now? Yeah. Wow.

I don't think I've ever met anyone from Montana. No, yeah, Matt was like wondering, like, where is Montana? He's like, I'm a little geographically challenged. Oh, I am too, people who wrote me in the comments for it. Yeah. But I've heard of Billings, Montana. Okay. That's, uh, that's, is it cold out there right now?

It's getting chilly. It's starting to get chilly. Is it ever warm in Montana? Oh, yeah. It's warm. It's hot. It's got, Montana has pretty much all four seasons. Okay.

So you actually get a pretty, pretty good mix. It gets cold in the wintertime and snowy, but it's hot in the summertime. I mean, you can't go without AC. You're going to be dying. Is that where you grew up? Yeah, I grew up in Montana. I mean, I, I, I grew up, uh, until I was about 10 years old in Fort Lauderdale, Florida. And then we moved back to Montana.

So why did you guys switch? My dad worked for, uh, uh, Texas Instruments. And so he fixed computer systems at the time. And so they just needed someone in the northwestern sector to fix computer systems. So you had the hook up to those like $500 calculators. They made you buy in high school. Yeah, he used to then like he did a lot of like auto repair, like auto dealership computers. When we went to Florida, it's interesting because we were from Montana.

We lived in, um, in, in, uh, Bozeman, Montana, outside of Bozeman, place called Three Forks. And when I was little, they transferred them to Florida. And you know, we're a white family from Montana. And so we're getting closer to the address that we're moving to in Florida. And they told them, we have a house for you and everything. And it's, you know, it's dark. You know, we're like, we're down in the hood.

You know, we were in a place called Lauder Hill, which is a suburb of Fort Lauderdale. And there ain't no white people down there. I mean, it's so everybody's looking at this Jeep wagon here full of these, this white family, you know, looking like some Mormons, which we were. I was raised Mormon. And so, and it's, it was pretty interesting. And I'm like, who are these guys? And we're like, where are we at?

Like, we're, and so, you know, we moved right into the hood. You know, it was pretty interesting. And so it was a cool dynamic, you know. We were like the only white family in a very, you know, large area. So it was pretty wild. What was it like to be raised Mormon? You know, not too bad. It's just, you know, the Mormon religion.

I mean, they're good people. I'm not a Mormon now. Nobody in my family is a Mormon. We're all what you consider, Jack. Mormons that have left the church. I have a good time sometimes with missionaries and whatnot. So I lived in Mexico. I was on the run in Mexico.

We can get to that. And I lived down in central Mexico in the state of Juanajoto. And I lived in a little town called Yerrera. And there were Mormon missionaries. And so I would see them and they spoke English. One of them was white. The other guy was like some kind of Spanish descent. I don't know what he was.

but and when they'd see me you'd see them they'd be like oh shit i'd be on my motor and i'd see them and i'd pull up like hey you guys what's up man you know it was nice to talk to someone you know that spoke fluent english and from the u.s. i'm like man what do you guys doing and uh i'd like oh man you see them hot chicks you know they're not allowed to like look at anything that could be sin or you know on their mission and so and i'd got to give them a hard time i'd be like man did you guys know that joseph smith and i'd start telling them you know a lot of the history of the church, which people don't really discuss in the Mormon church because it's kind of a, you know, I mean, like I said, morbids are really great people, but I mean, you know,

Joseph Smith and the way it all started, and if you really understand the full history of the church, you know, it's kind of interesting. What'd your mom do for work? You know, my mom's actually, she's a counselor. She was a school counselor up in Alaska and up in a little Indian village on the north shore of Alaska for a lot of years. And then she was on an Indian reservation in Wyoming school counselor for a long time. No, she's retired. So did your parents split during your child?

Yeah, no, they split. Yeah, they split when I was a child. They split. How old were you when that happened? Who, I don't remember, maybe 11, 12, somewhere around there. It's kind of, I don't really remember, to be honest with you, like what real age I was.

I did a lot of time in institutions since I was about 10 years old. So I spent from about 10 to about 19, pretty much incarcerated in one form or another in psychiatric hospitals, different juvenile type institutions like a boys ranch. It kind of started my institutionalization at a young age. If that kind of, you know, I didn't really have Christmases in the same way and birthdays, you know, in the same way that a lot of people maybe did. So, you know, to this day, I'm not a holiday guy. I mean, I don't care about them, but they really don't do much for me.

Before that ever happened, how would you have described yourself? Wild. I was pretty out there, you know, starting fires, you know, things like that, fighting with siblings. You know, just, you know, ADHD. And this was back, you know, in the, you know, the early 90s when I started getting 13. And so, you know, I was born in 77. so I suppose in the mid-80s.

You know, I had a hard time. I was a middle child, which I don't know. Some people say that's bad, but, you know, I didn't adjust very well. I think I needed more attention than my mom and family was able to give me. And so I acted out a lot. And, you know, I started stealing mostly.

And that was pretty much centered around my whole life, to be honest. Like, the first thing I ever stole was a pack of baseball cards. And I felt, so like cool I got away with it you know the other kids were like oh man yeah look at that and then my mind was like and if I could get a pack I could get the whole box so I tucked my my my pants into my into my socks and I went back in the little store called the blue basket and uh I grabbed the whole box shoved it down my pants and they're all fallen and I can hear crinkle crinkle and I'm like fuck this guy's

gonna hear me so I'm like oh yeah I'm talking real loud as I back out the door and I went into this little culvert where all the kids, you know, we were hung out. And I pulled my pant legs up and it was just like this cascade of like silver, you know, it was the upper deck packs. And everybody was like, whoa, you know, and I was like, don't touch them their mind. And then, um, and to be honest with you, I think I, what happened is I found acceptance. You know, I was cool. Everybody was like, dang.

And so that kind of fueled a lot of my life was, you know, being accepted by committing crime, you know, by doing daring things. And so, uh, you know, I really got into stealing when I was a kid. Uh, you know, it was getting, it was pretty, you know, I would put sometimes, I put my sister, had these leggings on. I'd put them under my pants just because I could shove, you know, cartons of cigarettes, you know, down, you know, back when they used to come out of a little thing, you'd pull them, it, go, bing, bing, you know, and, uh, and, and in junior high, you know, when I was in between stints of being locked up, you know, I would steal makeup. I'd take notes and the girls would be like, I need Mabeline number five or, you know,

and I'd be writing everything down and I'd go over at lunchtime to, you know, to the Albertsons and just start, you know, shopping. And it just kind of progressed from there. So later on in life, you know, I just started stealing and I had a neighbor I met, this guy named Buff. Buff was cool, man. I love Buff, man. He passed away.

But Buff was a cool dude and I got close with him and Buff liked to buy stolen stuff like whatever like everything and anything Wheelbarrows I mean boxes styrofoam cups Buff would buy it all I mean and so that really fueled You know I drive around I had a 74 Ford Galaxy 500 we called twisted metal And it would just be packed people in the trunk. I mean it was just distinct we would drive deep and I'm I'd smash into those big round dumpsters in the alleys. Sometimes I'd push them out on the main streets and drive off. You know, I did a lot of really dumb stuff.

I drove through privacy fences at 2 in the morning, you know, bad things. Things that like, you know, looking back, it's like, wow, reckless. What was the first incident that got you institutionalized at 10 years old? You know, there really wasn't a specific incident. It was just kind of like, you know, my mother was having a hard time with me. my behaviors getting in trouble, acting out in class. And so she drove me to, there's a place we have there. It's called a Yellowstone Boys and Girls Ranch.

They call it Yellowstone Treatment Centers now. So, and so she drove me out there. She said, we're just going to look at this place. And I remember I got all mad. And I was like, what are you trying to drop me off here? You got my clothes in the trunk? And so they toured the place. And it was really nice.

You know, I have horses. And it looked pretty nice. And she's like, look, we could try this out. and so I did. So I ended up staying there for a while. And, you know, like I said, I think that kind of just, you have counselors and psychologists and they give you IQ tests and they give you all these different tests all the time,

you know, and try to figure these kids out, you know. Sometimes, you know, I think there's probably more harmed and good done, but I suppose what do you do sometimes? Yeah, do you think those facilities did the opposite of what your parents' intention was for? Probably so. Probably so. So when I was really young, when I was three years old, I took a whole bottle of high blood pressure pills. And so I took these high blood pressure pills thinking they were candy or something. They were my grandpas. And I actually was dead. My brother found me behind a recliner at my grandpa's in Florida. So my dad brought me to the hospital. He's like, you're dead. You're just dead. And so they're working on me. He says they're hitting me with a little, you know, clear. And, you know, I lived. So years later, my mom, you know, like I said, she's, she's into psychology, you know, and she's, she has her master's in social working.

And so she tried to figure it out. She said, they always asked me if you'd ever had any brain injuries. And I always told them no. But I didn't realize that, you know, when your heart was stopped for so long that with the loss of oxygen to your brain, there could have been some stuff there. So she beats herself up a lot for it. She's a great mom. But were you envious of other kids that had, say, a normal childhood, got to go to actual public schools or any schools?

Yeah, there was probably some of that. I don't really fully remember it. To be honest, my memories, sometimes, you know, you start getting years ago, 48. People always think I'm in my early 30s. I get that a lot. They're like, no way, you're almost 50. But so I do forget some of that stuff.

But I don't really remember being envious, but I'm sure sometimes, you know, I'd see kids that, you know, had, like a Christmas or something. And part of me had chased that before. You know, I ended up one time when I got out of prison, I got married. And it was like, I just want the White House, the picket fence, the wife, the kids. I want a calm life. I'm tired of this.

And, you know, had a great Christmas that Christmas, you know. It was a one and done. Yeah, it was a one and done. Did you ever end up back in regular schooling or were your whole teenage years just in No, I, um, so I ended up in college. You know, I never finished high school. I was actually, so I went, I ended up in the state juvenile for breaking. I was in an alternative school and I broke in at night.

I stole the keys out of the desk drawer. And then later on, I came back and I broke in and they had some money. They were going to be taking some kind of trip. And I knew there was some money there. And I stole money and some, you know, gaming equipment. And I stole it. This lady gave me her car actually. She said, hey, steal this.

Take my car and just wreck it so I can get the insurance money. And then she reported it stolen way sooner than she said she was going to. So the next morning, me and my buddy Doug were sleeping in it and were surrounded by cops. They found all the stuff in there. And then so I went to juvie and I had some cocaine in my pocket. And so I went to juvie and then they ended up sending me to the state juvie place, which is called Pine Hills. And I didn't conform very well.

My first day there, I had snuck some lighters in and these guys wanted to use them. And then I told them, well, I'm smoking too and they didn't want me to. so I got to fight with them. And then they told on me. And then I went to a medium security housing unit the very next day and got in it with a guy there. And then when they let me out of myself, 24 hours later, I ran up on him and got it again. So they sent me to the maximum security unit, which was called Range Riders. And I got wild.

I did a lot. You know, so I got in a lot of fights. If I got in a fight with someone, then they couldn't stay on the unit. I wasn't going to feel like, you know, I had to watch out for them. So it would give you 24 hours no matter what you did. You could assault a guard, escape. The maximum you did was 24 hours in your cell. So as soon as the 24 hours was up, I would get out and I would go right back to whoever I got into it with if they were still in the unit and I'd just smash them.

Do you think getting that taste of prison at such a young age helped you later on in life when you were in prison, like in the federal prison system? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Definitely. it gave me a lot of insight into, you know, the behaviors of criminals and being, you know, you know, manipulation. I'd have to manipulate to get, you know, from a young age, I learned to manipulate the guards and the staff to get what I want, you know, so I became very manipulative, instigating. I mean, I instigated stuff just constantly chaos. I would instigate things, you know, if I didn't like somebody, I'd instigating.

you know find little ways to get someone else to you know do something to them um and so it became yeah i learned from a young age you know how to instigate and how to manipulate and uh you know i got in it with a lot of guards this is back in the day when there was like mop ringers you know i mean so sometimes you know there'd be you know i was just wild you know i'd hit some guards with mop ringers mop handles um do you know things like that and uh it be you know it be became so much that the state, they decided, I guess, like, we can't handle this dude here anymore. So they sent me to a juvenile facility in Colorado. It was called High Plains Youth Center in Brush, Colorado. It's now, I think it's the women's prison, state prison. I mean, so it was

a prison. This thing was. And that was a real change. They lied. They had a brochure. It showed me had a pool and everything to get me on the plane down there nice and easy. And I got into that place and the guards from Montana, they took the cuffs off me. And there was, you know, cameras everywhere. And I'm in this little hallway. And it was all these big guys. They're all like ex-football players from college, you know. And they were going to straighten these kids out.

And it was a very violent, very, a very rough place. And so as soon as the guards from Montana left, I mean, without warning, I mean, just bam. I was up against the wall. I mean, the guy elbowed me, had me pinned up there, you know, and he's like, you're not in Montana anymore, boy, you hear me? And, you know, so they brought me in the unit. There's 12 kids in each unit, and there's four guards that would work for each unit.

So, I mean, that kind of gives you, they weren't always right in the room, but there's cameras everywhere. There's a walkway that overlooks the day rooms. And it was all kids from around the country. So it was very interesting. It was actually, I mean, it was all gang kids. There was black peatones from Chicago. There was bloods.

There was Crips. You know, there was, there was gang members from Connecticut. I had a buddy named Kenny from Bridgeport, you know. And it was all kids, you know, like he killed a couple guys at the courthouse, like, that killed his homeboy. He shot him. It was just some crazy, he was from New Britain. New Britain? Yeah, New Britain, Connecticut.

New Britain. He was a deuce-duce. And so, you know, here I was this white boy from Montana, you know, no gang experience. you know, and I'm in this, you know, this, and with all these gang members. And so, you know, they all taught me all their, you know, gang signs. And, you know, it was pretty, you know, I, you know, there was everything you can imagine there.

And there was all these, these kids that, you know, were pretty ruthless and violent for the most part. And that they had been, you know, set there from their state. Sometimes we'd be walking in the hallway, you know, 12, 12 kids in each unit, we'd pass another unit. And next thing you know, man, the gang signs would start flying. They'd like, hey, fuck you. whoop and boom it would just pop off so a guy like you who's white and that age where would you go

like who'd you step back and watch it man so you weren't involved with any of the game stuff not with that stuff i mean there's plenty of fighting we we we were pretty rough kids you know there was four and six man cells so some like your unit would have three four man cells and sometimes we'd switch with another one so we'd all have it would be in two six man cells and i was an a one it was all president's name Abraham won. And it was, you know, they ran like a group on us, you know. And so we'd circle up group. We had to like hold each other accountable.

So I'd be like, hey, do you see your authority problem leaning on the wall? And if you said no, then I'd say, circle up, group. And I'd be like, you know, I'm calling this. Ian, he was leaning on the wall. The situation is I asked me if he saw his authority problem. And he said, no. And the guards start circling around. So what's the problem, dude?

you know, what's going on? And other people would give you feedback. It was really stupid to be truthful with you. It was like somebody had this idea, like, this is the group, this is how we're going to run it, and they just went with it. And really it was just a violent, you know, the guards were just very violent. It was tough love. And it just really instilled more violence.

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I didn't, you know, a lot of them, you know, that's probably how they grew up. Where do you think your life went wrong when you look back on it to end you up in that you've been out of the detention center? I don't think my life went wrong. You know what I mean? I don't think, I mean, I think you're always right where you're supposed to be, you know, So I think that my experiences of my life and the things that I've done kind of shaped me into who I am. I'd like to say that I would do some things over differently.

There's a lot of things that I did. You know, a lot of people that, you know, were hurt by my actions. You know, but I don't think I'd be who I am today without it all. What do you think were your issues you were struggling with at the time that got you there? I just you know my whole life I had a criminal mind so you know most people that are in prison they're in there for drugs a lot of it is drugs it's drug related it's doing dumb stuff while they're doing drugs or drinking it's you know selling drugs because they were using drugs and then they want to you know a lot of it it's a lot of pretty much almost I don't know what

the percentage is but it's got to be pretty high was drug related or alcohol related in some form or fashion. I've never been into drinking. I've never been into drugs. I've never been addicted to drugs. I've done drugs. I can take them or leave them. It was not.

But it was crime. Like what drives me, what, not anymore. But what used to drive me was just, was crime, was getting away with stuff. And I like to plan crime. I like to plan, you know, licks. it was constantly financial. You know, like, oh, man.

So, you know, I have a couple friends, you know, me and my friend, Chris. We used to drive around, you know, all night just scoping, you know, just, I mean, looking at warehouses and businesses and, you know, pawn shops, you name it. And so what happened is my conscious mind was constantly looking for a score, looking for some way to get over. And so my subconscious mind, you know, we can influence our subconscious mind, you know, only through the conscious mind.

And so you really have to watch, you know, like there's that saying, you know, when you think something and it becomes, you know, reality because you're influencing your subconscious. And I didn't learn this until years later, actually about six years ago, when I really started getting into, you know, my mind, my morals, my values,

my conscious thoughts, trying to be a better person and realizing, hey, this isn't, you know, what I want. I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison. So, you know, I think that I just allowed myself to constantly think about hitting licks. It became who I was. And everybody around me knew. So people would constantly bring me their ideas for crime. Do you think that all stem from the playing cards?

Um, you know, it was baseball cards, but, um, you know, it may, I, I don't know. So my mother, I love my dad. My dad's, my dad's been there for me, you know, all the prison sentences I've ever done, you know, for the most part, um, as an adult, like my dad's been, you know, my rock. He's been, you know, he's, you know, he's, you know, he's, you know, doesn't support. things that I've done, but I call pops, you know, hey, dad, I need you to send some money, or can you do this, can you do that? You know, he'd do it. Call this person. And so, my mother recently had told me when she came and picked me up out of state prison, when I got out of state prison, and she, we were going to drive to Florida. The state prison wouldn't let me out and left the state. They basically told me, we'll parole you only if you leave the state. So my mom picked me up, and she told me, you know, you're, your dad, it's your dad's fault.

She didn't even say it was his fault, but, you know, and so she was telling me like, you know, your dad always mentions things. And my dad's not a criminal at all. And so what she told me, so I'd end a couple days later on, I fly down to Florida and I move in with my father. And, I mean, I love him to death, you know, he said,

but she's right. So he's constantly says these little things. And I think he, my mom said he always did it since we were little. So we're driving down. the street and he'll be like look at that door open someone could break into there he'd just like throw this little like nonchalant comment out and then uh he'd be like oh man that's not a smart way the way they leave that cash register open someone could reach over there and grab the money and i really started like holy crap i was realizing i was like damn you know like my dad does mention stuff constantly

and it's not that he's trying to be criminal he's just super observant he's very intelligent you know, when he sees things. And so, you know, he's observant and he comments on him. So, I mean, you know, I'm not blaming my father by any means. But, you know, I wonder, often wonder if little comments like that

in a young, you know, developing mind maybe was like, oh, yeah, you could do that. And so, yeah, I think from stealing the baseball cards and finding acceptance, though, and financial, you know, because I started selling them, trading them, I had a lot of baseball cards. I mean, I had just untrue.

told my mother was like, where are you getting these from? Like I was hiding the packages, you know, down in the garbage can because, you know, 40, 50, 100, you know, and then, you know, I'm trading them for, you know, the little sheets that you put them in and books. And so I have all these books and just, I mean, it was getting pretty. It was pretty. I mean, it was like a business, you know, so. How old were you when you finally put juvenile detention behind you?

The state of Montana pulled my contract when I was 19. So I think they finally realized like, dude, this guy's an adult. We're paying, I think it was like a quarter million dollars a year or something to keep me down here in this place. Like, what are we doing? And so they pulled my contract and they came and told me. They're like, hey, your state pulled your contract. You're going to be leaving. And so they sent me back to Montana.

And then I moved in with my mom. And then the state paid for my college. So I started college at Montana State University. What were you going to college for? Business. and I was going to major in business and minor in acting. It didn't last long. You know, actually it was cool.

And then one day, all of a sudden, they called me down to the office. And they were like, hey, and they had this check for me. It was a student loan check. I was like, what is this for? And the lady says, whatever you want. And I was like, because my college was paid for. I already had a lot made for books and everything. I was living off campus.

They had made an exception for me to let me live off campus because you're supposed to live on. campus like your first year but they're like look this guy's been locked up like just and so i got this check and she's like there's more coming and i'm like what and i don't remember how much the check was for it was several thousand dollars two or three or four thousand and i was like i'd never had that much money so i went and cashed it man and i was rich and that's when i went and bought you know i went right to the south side pawn shop and i bought a 74 Ford galaxy 500 for door you know it was like yellow and green diamond tucked for lower interior.

Then I went about a pound of weed. You know, it was like, my mind was like, well, I get some fucking weed. And I went and got my buddies and was like, look what I got. And so I started selling some weed and we started cruising around in the car. And then, you know, we just smoked a lot of weed. And then, you know, I started going back to school and, you know, selling weed to everybody in class. You know, like, hey, and finally just college took a back seat. And, you know, I was just ripping and roaring again.

How long did that last? college yeah when when you finally left I don't remember not very long three four five months at the most that was a short stint yeah I everything was always a short stint in my life freedom was a short stint you know I I would get out of you know I'd get out and it would just be boof you know a wild ride until I'd get locked back up again and then it would always be you know a chunk of time some number of years and then I'd get out and then poof back again so all my friends and family and, you know, community members, you know,

they'd see me in the paper or, you know, whatever, and they're like, oh, then I'm gone. Then everyone was like, Benz out, you know, and then I kind of had this reputation of, you know, to kind of uphold in a little bit, like, oh. And so, you know, it kind of kept fueling the, you know, the criminal lifestyle. What was the first charge you got arrested for

as an adult when you left college? I was, well, I robbed this drug dealer. and I was driving through Wyoming. I bought a car and I had some money and had a bunch of weed. And I was driving through Wyoming with some friends. And I got pulled over in Gillette, Wyoming. And I had three ounces of weed. And you'd think I was Chapo Guzman, man.

I mean, this is, you know, in 1996. And they threw the book at me. and so they end up giving me five years in prison um and so i went to wyoming state prison uh my first day there i threw up one of those big coffee irons of boiling water on a guy um they were calling it was in like the fish row and uh they were they were calling who wants a job you know and i was outside of my cell everyone got out for an hour a day and i was out and i was out and i told this guy, hey, they're asking if someone wants a job. And this other guy, something called, well, he's in another cell.

He's like, hey, motherfucker. He's like, I'm up next for that job. And I was like, yeah, I was just telling this guy they were asking my job, bro. I don't know nothing about that. He's like, fuck you. I'm like, yeah, well, fuck you. So I slammed his bean shoot shut, you know, the little tray hole. He gets hot in there without that.

And I'm like, yeah, fucking cooking that, motherfucker. So I went back down to my cell and I had this really old man as a roommate. I mean, the guy he had a cigarette. He's like, you smoke. I said, yeah, and he grabbed a paper and threw some tobacco in there, one-handed, like, literally rolled this whole cigarette. And he said, I've been smoking since there was nothing but Bull Durham, you know. And anyway, he was cool. So I didn't go and tell him, hey, man, this fucking guy's up here.

He's like, if you're ready to fight? I'm like, fuck, yeah, dude. Like, I'm ready. So I got some sock, a sock, and I put a bar of soap in it first. And then I took it out. And I went outside of my cell, and I pulled that the plug on. there was a hot water for making soups, you know, one of the big coffee urns. And sure enough, that dude was next to be the orderly, and they popped his cell.

So he comes walking down the stairs, and he was a white dude from Utah. And I can't remember what gang he was. He was a blood or a crib. I don't specifically remember, but he started throwing these gang signs at me, you know, and like, this is what can whatever, whoop, whoop street, you know? And I'm like, well, what's up? So he got to the bottom of the stairs, and I grabbed that coffee. fear and he stepped back like and later on i talked to him he's like well i saw it was unplugged so i was

thinking fuck that it's not even plugged in but i hadn't wanted it unplugged it and i just douched him with it and then hit him with that soap i had a bar of soap in my hand and he's screaming and we're fighting around on the floor and the cops come in he bit my hand i've got the scars still from that bite he bit my hand pretty good and so i'm bleeding the cops don't know what's going on and they bring me to medical and uh they took some pictures of him with a polaroid and And they're showing me. He didn't look good. I mean, I remember.

They was like, set him down. I almost passed out. I was like, it kind of looked like buttery, maybe some pink blood. Like, it's been a long time, but it was a pretty bad looking picture, you know. It got a good couple layers of his skin. And luckily, for me, they didn't like that dude. So the sergeant, that dude had been, you know, mouthy. And the sergeant came and told me, look, they actually gave me a charge of a

mayhem, which is pretty cool because in the, I mean, at the time, because in the charges, it was like, for write-ups, it was like murder, attempted murder, escape, mayhem, you know, so I got the list of everything. So, like, I got pretty close up there to the top at the time, which was, you know, for being in prison as, you know, it's like, you know, status. Like, yeah, I got a mayhem. And I'm home. Which was like the bodily disfigurement or dismemberment of another human being is what it said. So they wrote me up, but they, uh, they didn't like.

like that dude. So the sergeant came. He's like, man, fuck that dude. He got what he deserved. He's mouthy. I told him he was going to catch it. So they sent him to the max yard. And they sent me to the hole on the medium yard. So I get down there and there's a guy in there that I'm new from Juvie. We escaped together in Jubey before a guy named John Potts, good friend. And so we, you know, we end up talking and everything. And then I get out. Well, that guy, they sent him at one point over to the medium yard finally. So someone's like, hey, someone wants to talk to you in the music room. I get down to the music room and here's this dude in there

He's like, what's up motherfucker? Look what you fucking did to me I'm like, what's up dude? So it's on. So we're fighting. He's got a big metal dustpan Like a metal one that used to have in there.

They don't have that. And he's swinging at me And I've got the, there's a mic, you know, a mic on a stand. I'm trying to get him with that. I end up somehow getting him wrapped up with this mic cord against the wall and then everyone came in.

and broke it up. I got a bloody nose. He's over here. I mean, I had him good. It was wrapped. There was, and so that was it. And then I had to get into it with all the music room guys. So they're all coming like, hey, dude, you broke one of our mic chords. Dude, like, that's disrespectful. Like, I didn't know what was going on.

They told me going to music room. I didn't know it was a fight or nothing. I wasn't trying to. So it was kind of like, so now I had a bunch of dudes that used the music room. They were pretty upset. And I was like, look, man, like, you know, I dug it. You know, I wasn't a big deal. I can't fight everybody, you know, so. I ended up paying for a new cord, you know, to calm it all down.

And so anyways, yeah, they ended up shipping me. I got some more fights, so they sent me over to the Mack Shard. And, you know, some of this is pretty wild. It's pretty, I got pretty wild. This episode is sponsored by Blue Chew, the original brand offering chewable tablets for better sex. Fellas, let's talk straight facts. Showing up unprepared in the bedroom is like showing up to a UFC. F.C. Fight wearing crocs. You might make it through the first round, but it's not going to end well.

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five bucks for shipping. That's it. Join Blue True's mission to upgrade humanity one thrust at the time. Head to bluechew.com for details and safety info. And as always, big thanks to Bluechu for sponsoring this episode. Give us a good Mac security, Wyoming prison story. I mean, it goes on and on. Give us the best one. Well, there's, I just, I don't even. There's got to be a top one. I finally try to light a sex offender. I don't know what I don't. I don't, I, there was a sex offender and this guy, him and his, him and his wife had been locking kids up in like dog kennels. And let me just say this. Let me just preface this. One thing I don't do with sex offenders. Like, that's my hot butt.

Don't fuck with kids. Yeah, I mean, that's just always been like, and maybe some of that came from, you know what I mean? Me just, you know, growing up as a kid in jails and stuff. But like, it's just one thing. You know, I have, I kind of like my empathy, you know, reasoning is kind of shot a little bit in my head.

But when it comes to like kids and vulnerable people, like older people, you know, it's like that's just not. And so I've always, that's always kind of been in my heart. hot button. And so they stuck this sex offender, this guy that had been locking kids up in dog kennels on our yard in my block, you know, it was like almost a setup, it felt like, and it probably was. The guards were probably like, they called me cheesy in Wyoming State Prison because my name was McChesney and it was, you know, cheesy and I always had this cheesy smile. I was always happy. People like, why are you happy? You're doing all this time, you know, all the time. And so,

then the guards probably did. They were probably like, put them over there by cheesy. you know, I don't know. So I went in, and he was an old man, and so it wasn't much I could do. I wasn't going to go to, so I went and slapped him around a little bit, choked him out, you know, threw him around the cell. And he ended up shutting his door, PC and up, you know, locking it, waiting for the cops.

So I threw a whole bunch of rolls of toilet paper under the door. It was a real tall doors there. I threw them all under there, and I lit them on fire, pushed him out of the door. So, you know, it got smoky, smokes going off. The cops come running up. So I go back to my cell, you know, and I start hiding stuff in my Bible. You could take your Bible to the holes.

I'm trying to hide stuff in the Bible. I'm like, they're going to blame me no matter what. And they did. They knew. They came right down. Ah, cheesy, that's it. Cuff up. And I'm like, how you blaming me?

I don't fucking know nothing about this shit. And they're like, bullshit. So they took me to the hole. And I never got out again. Now they sold matches back then or lighters? Yeah. Yeah, we had cigarettes on commissary. pack of marbles like a buck 65 you could buy the the thing of bugler and whatnot um and so

yeah they took me to solitary confinement and uh man i i'll be honest with you bro i just be it's like you you become kind of like an animal in there so i had two really good friends in the hole there and one of his name was jeep jimmy jake hardy i don't know if i have i actually finally after Like 30 years had just got a hold of him. I found someone that knew him online and anyways. And I got a hold of him and talked to him once, but he has like brain cancer and he's on the run. Still living a wildlife. And then I haven't heard back from him.

And then I had another friend named John Potts. And so I just, we would just rock it with the cops constantly. And I would instigate everybody into doing it. I would try to get all the units popping off at the same time. I would try to pop it off only before shift change. because if something happened at 10 o'clock shift change, for instance, I think that was 10 or 11 was their shift change. If something happened before that,

all the guards had to stay that were involved in the situation until it was resolved. Well, fuck, extracting all of us out of ourselves and fighting with them, you know, that could get to 2, 3, 4 in the morning. And so, you know, I was like, hit them in the pocket, boys! And so we'd block our windows and we would flood

and, you know, just everything that we could possibly do. and then it was never you could never cuff up um if you because they come and they mace you and they you know cuff up and if you cuff up you know and you're a pussy like you know that was it like like you know cuffing up and so you know i would um i would drain the toilet of the water or the sink you can blow out the pea trap and put like a garbage bag you can get all kind of stuff in there you know there's there's uh the protective custody block those guys you know clean and sometimes so there's all kind of ways, you know. Um, and so I would breathe like out of the toilet, you know, you can breathe out of there, you know, sometimes they'd be spraying mace in there and everything's blocked up,

mattresses up against the wall, everything's flooded, the water's off, you know, you're tired. You know, I've got saran wrap wrapped around my eyes and wet towels and you still got mace everywhere. You're snot blowing and, uh, you're still, fuck you. I mean, it's just really, why it's like an animal. And so, um, I took one time a shower curtain, had it all wrapped around. I had like a peanut butter bottle, like a gas mask with holes cut in it,

a bunch of shit in there. It didn't work. But it was cool looking. I was shot a picture of it, you know, and I would write stuff. And, you know, I was,

at the time, it was, you know, it was more racial. So it was like whites, blacks, you know. Were there gangs or it was just race? It was mostly race in Wyoming State Prison. You know,

it was mostly race. So, you know things would pop off racially wise like this black guy ripped me off for some weed one time I went and hit him with a shovel on the yard um and so you know the white boys were like you can get a swastika now you know because you you know you put in some dirt it was a pretty wild you know deal um you know just things like that you know this is back you know in the 90s you know if you had like some political ink on you know like i got you know white pride on my arms down there um i had a swastika on my knee i covered it up it was it's never really been me i've never really been me i've never really

been a, you know, a racial person. I grew up, you know, with kids, you know, every race, but when it was in there, you know, it was like it became, you know, a lot of racial tensions. You know, there's not a lot of black people on the Wyoming State Prison Yard, but there is. And so, you know, there was a lot of tensions. And you guys had access to shovels? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a little, there was closets right there for doing yard work, shovels, rakes, you know, those things are probably changed. You know, while I was there, runt, these three guys, they killed a guard right there, trying to escape and tried to jump the fence.

Then they stole a truck from the guy, but any, a maintenance worker, and they ran in the fence. Anyways, that's their stories to tell. But, you know, I was in the hole with, you know, those guys later on, you know. And, you know, it's just you're getting this, this wanting to get out, you know. I mean, God, if I had life, I would never stop trying to get out. Like, you know, like, there's no way. Like, I don't blame them. I mean, digging a hole.

I mean, like, I, because, you know, I mean, at that point, you know, what are you going to do? You know what I mean? You got life. This is, this is it. You might as well try to get out. And out of desperation, you know, it's like a rat in a cage, you know? And so you start, you know, you put some fire to that cage, that thing's trying to get out of there.

And so it's the same way, you know. The guard they killed, actually, was a really good guy, man. He's like, sometimes it's sad because he's like, man, that was the good one. It wasn't that fucking asshole that treats us all like shit. It was this cool guard who just happened to be, you know, in the bubble that day because it was Martinez. But, and so, yeah, you know, so in the hole, that was it. you know, I was, I was pretty wild.

They would move me around. They had an old death row house from before they had death row. So this cell had been sitting empty for years and it had been built like makeshift. So the whole in the Wyoming State Prison is set up, you know, like this. And it's like a star. So you got all these units. And then in the middle, there's a guard booth. And so in between two of the units, in kind of that general rotunda area, they had built

two cells for a death row. And it was old. they hadn't used it for years because now they built a death row. So they put me in there one time. And I tied myself in the cage and I jammed the locks with pieces of a comb and toothpaste. And so, and I started flooding and throwing all the water onto this. There was this whole wall of electrical boxes for the whole hole on the other side of this, like that diamond expanded metal. And I just started hucking it.

And I had got a little plate off the wall and I yelled in there through the conduit, hey, it's cheesy. And they were like, what up? I'm like, when the lights go off, it's on. So I'm thinking this water's going to like short out, you know, lucky I didn't die. Nothing actually happened. But they came in and started maceing me and they couldn't, they cut the locks off.

They couldn't get the cage open because this had a door in it also had a cage. And that's the only time I've been tear gassed. And they tear gassed me with this big black. It looked like a fire extinguishersers, it had like an eagle with a shield. I mean, I'll never. So they started spraying that in there. And it went in one door.

So this cell had two doors on it. Had a bathroom. They had like a shower and everything. And then that expanded metal. And then there was a door that went out to the rotunda. And then anyways, so it all started flowing through. So the guards are getting fucking tear gassed. They're out there puking.

I'm in here puking. You know, it's the only time I ever gave up like that. I'm like, all right, all right. They couldn't get in the cage. Like they're trying to cut it with bolt cutters. They're talking about getting a cutting torch. I'm telling them, yeah, motherfuckers. You know, and you're just wild in there.

You know, and I got all this stuff wrapped around me for Mace, you know, swastikas on them and just a bunch of shit, you know. You're a real menace. I was a menace. So years later, so let me tell you this one, is a really, really, really good one. So they finally, at one point, they moved me up to, like, the intake unit on a whole other yard. They had a, right by the garage, they had a, like a cell, a solitary cell and had a big white. So they put me in there because that way I couldn't, I mean, you understand, I was instant. gate and so much stuff going on down there.

I mean, fires and floods, we would start fires and pull them out with strings into the middle of the hallway. And they didn't have cameras at the time. So they put cameras on tripods at the end of the unit. And so I'd come out there on shower time and I'd hold a towel in front of the camera and when I'd let it go, there'd be fires behind me. And they'd be because they said, we're going to charge you guys with arson. And so now they wouldn't know where it came from.

But it wasn't me because I'm right there. And so it was just, you know, constant, you know, fighting with them. And so they moved me to this cell. And one day the cop comes by, I said, where's my mail? He's like, it's over in C unit, which is the hole in Wyoming State Prison. I'm like, well, get my mail. He's like, no, dude, I'm like, fuck, you get my fucking mail. So the ceiling had that expanded metal so I couldn't get to the, I couldn't get to the lights.

And the bed was this big medical bed. And you could move it. It wasn't bolted. So I tied it with sheets from the ceiling and used it like a battering ram and just start hitting the door. boom boom boom you know what I'm and uh block the window and I'm over there like you fuck and so now they're like oh fuck dude cheesy's going off again up here now and now you normally they just come in and mace me and it's just me they don't have to deal with everyone else so it's

be a lot easier but now they've got so they've got the sort team out there and they're all turtles suited up you know and they're waiting to get in and I'm peeking out you fucking pussy's come and get some and I mean I'm actually ripping the door the metal of this door is ripped and I'm just bam and they're like what the fuck they don't know what's going on but they can tell it's like you know they don't want to go in there it probably it's a good thing they didn't because he probably would have got some broke ribs i mean it was and so they broke my ribs before um so they finally this sergeant came in from home it's like three in the morning and he's like cheesy come over here and talk to me brand i'm like you're going to try to come in the door

but the bean shoot was on the wall i'm like dude he's like you have my word bro i'm like all right we're on a truce right now man you like you ain't going to try to come in the cell while i'm talking to you And this was one of those ones you could trust. Like, you know, yeah, I could have been talking. They could have hurry up and ran in and got me. But, you know, he would lose his credibility. And so he's like, what's going on? And I explained him what was going on.

And he was like, you guys got me here for fucking mail. Get him his goddamn mail now. So he's like, look, we're going to get your mail. And I'm like, well, now I haven't had dinner. He's like, it's almost breakfast. And I'm, he's like, look at yourself. And I remember he told me, look, and I looked in. And I had all this ink that was like dripped on my face from all the headbands and, you know,

towels that I had. had wrapped around for the mace and i just was tired man it was late but he's like i'm going to get your mail and he said we're going to get you some food we're going to get you cleaned up new mattress and blankets and so i let him in i was like yeah cool man they didn't even cuff me up normally they'd cuff you up he's like i'm open the door you cool i'm like yeah i'm cool you open the door i came out and so the sort team you know these guys are out they've been in here for hours in these suits just sweating and i can see it man like they were deprived of their prize you know what i mean like their prize was like oh we're gonna fuck this dude up when you get him and they couldn't that time so another time i'd got

into a fight with a guard over a roll toilet paper and we got into a physical fight and i'd grabbed his radio was like kick it off and they beat me up and then it's just a and they put me in a set they actually had me so bad i definitely thought i was gonna die and everybody else told me later on cheesy we thought they were killing you in there and i'm like they were they had me in this solitary cell and just stomping me jumping on me broke my ribs they grabbed Father's Day is June 15th, and Point Rees Farmsdale Cheese has a gift Dad will actually love. Skip the tie and give him award-winning California-made artisan cheese delivered right to his door.

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When you're doing this, do you feel mentally sane in the moment? Like, what's going through your mind? I mean, I don't know. Yeah, no. I guess probably a mental person doesn't know if they're mental, I suppose. They probably think they're sane. It's reality to them at the time. So, you know, for me, there's a lot of calculation.

You know, I'm fairly intelligent. You know, I'm just, you know, I just, I could calculate it all so no I don't think I really feel insane it's more just like you know kind of like an animal like yeah come on and get me then you know fuck you guys

I mean there were guards that would come and tell me like hey man tonight would be a good night for overtime you know and then there's other times they would come be like hey cheesy man uh man I gotta get up in the morning bro don't do nothing tonight and I would use that to my advantage I'd be like well it turns out how dinner is man like you know what I mean

you got chicken a night bro how many trays am I getting like listen man just just make sure everything's cool tonight So it got to where it gave me, I think, some form of power in a place where you really don't have very much power. So I think maybe it was more of trying to get the upper hand and try to feel like, hey, I have some influence in what's going on. Do you regret the way you treated correctional officers? No. No.

I'm going to be honest with you. Most correctional officers, in my opinion, are fucking scum. I've been in 14 federal prisons. I've been in state prison in Montana. I've been in state prison in Wyoming. I've been in county jails all across the country. I've been in several immigration prisons in Mexico, in Mexico City. You know, I've been transferred on 23 different times, U.S. Marshal, J.PAT's flights.

That's the Con Air. It's Justice Prisoner Air Transport. I've been bused around the country. I've been in, I don't know, county jails. I mean, I've got a map, you know, of the United States and everywhere I've been at. Did you see the map? Yeah, I saw it. Isn't that what you first message just with? Yeah. Yeah. And then you're like, you want to come on the show? I mean, most people that you're going to meet, just to be honest, that have been in that many institutions, like, for real,

you're probably not going to meet them because they're probably doing life. You know, they're probably, you know, incarcerated forever, you know. But I, and I've met a lot of really good correctional officers. You know, it's not, you know, exclusive to, you know, correctional officers or shit. You know, my, my look on, my take on law enforcement is a little bit, it's a little bit like, we need law enforcement. I'm a citizen. I don't do shit. I'm telling you what. I don't spit on the sidewalk, dude. It's not because I'm scared. It's just because, you know, I don't want to, I want to be a good person in my society. I've changed my mind frame. I've changed my life. You know, I have, you know, a three-year-old that, you know, I'm,

I didn't adopt her. I'm the custodian of her, you know, since she's been a year old right when I got out of prison. And then I have a 25-year-old stepdaughter that lives with me. You know, I love to help people get out of prison. You know, like I said, I wrote a correspondence course, recidivism reduction correspondence course. You know, I've got a book that I've been working on. It's pretty much done, you know, about recidivism. And when it comes to, you know, correction officers and law enforcement,

enforcement, you know, there's always some good ones and there's some that, you know, take advantage of their, you know, their power. And, uh, you know, the good ones really don't say shit to the bad ones. And that's really where it comes. I mean, you watch video after video. We all see them in our feeds, you know, some guy getting beat up by the cops. And some of them are warranted. I'm like, you got what you got coming, dude. Like, that's great. That's funny. Some of them, you're like, you know, damn, that cop is very, you know, heavy-handed. Like, he is forcing this situation, you know, to go there. He's not de-escalating. And the other cops are all standing around. I mean, let's be real. They're not. And so, okay. And so it basically comes to,

like, and it's the same thing in corrections. If there's a cop and he's in the wrong, those other guards, they're not standing up for nothing, dude. They're not going to be like, hey, hold up, man. Hey, Bob, let me talk to you. And then the other one step in and take over and de-escalate the situation. They're like, we're backing him up. No matter what happens, later on, we'll deal with it. Well, they're not dealing with it very good later on because if it continues to happen. And so I think what happens is, you know, you're so dehumanized in prison by a lot of the officers that the ones who are more human and decent, you know, they don't say anything. They don't really stand up. It's very, very, very rare. I've seen it in some extremely rare situations where you'll have

one who's like, hey, dude, no, we're not, this ain't going down like this. You're not going to treat that inmate. like that. And so I think that, you know, I don't mind, you know, when I went to prison for the things that I did, I've been to prison for some things I didn't. But like, yeah, I'm a big boy, man. You know, I stole, you know, I broke into a semi-truck, you know, and stole two pallets of firearms. Like, I'm an adult. Like, you know, I did that. And I knew when I stood there and saw that they were guns as an adult, like, this is the ATF, Ben. Like, this ain't, you know, some TVs. You're going to get a slap on the wrist.

You take these, you know, you're playing with the feds. And so as an adult, I made the decision and I took them. So doing the time is easy. Like, you know, they say, don't do the crime if you can't do the time. You know, it was like, cool. So. So you're in your 20s. You get out of state prison in Wyoming.

What happens next? So I actually beat my case in Wyoming. I fought for the whole time. I was in there for three years, nine months on a five-year sentence. And I had lost all parole privileges. But let me tell you, so they put me in a cell, actually, though, is kind of interesting. They locked me up. They stripped, cut my clothes off with a scissors and had me in handcuffs and belly chains.

And they put me in a juvenile cell. They had built for juveniles. And I just sit there. And it was up by a cage. It wasn't in the housing units. And I was up like by the counter's offices and stuff. and finally after a week, 10 days, the warden, and everybody comes in. And he says, you're going to hit me with that chain?

If I come in there, I said, no. He said, why don't you have a seat? He says, look, dude, just like this, what do we got to do to stop all of this? The fires, the floods, the overtime. He says, what do we need to do? I said, well, I'm not going to ask you to put me back on the yard. Because first off, that would be weird. Everybody on the yard, on the max yard and Wyoming State predentistry knew, like, you know,

Cheezy's back there cutting up because they're getting locked down sometimes when they have to pull staff. And so they'd be like, how would they let you out? You know, it would just look bad, you know, they'd be like, it doesn't even make sense. It's hard to comprehend some of this stuff because, you know, most people have never lived in this. And so I said, tell you what, give me Jeep and pots, our TVs, PlayStation's and leave us alone, dude. And he said, done. What else? I said, just don't fuck with me, bro.

I said, but I get my PlayStation 2, right? Because they have an honored unit in the hole. If they want, if like your time is done, but they don't want to send you to the yard yet because, you know, you're like a risk, not the PC rat unit. That's different. But they have one.

It's like a step down. It's like, okay, you don't have any more time. You're not on disciplinary anymore, but you're on administrative detention until we're ready to put you to the yard. And those guys could have just their TVs. And so he cleared three dudes, sent them to the yard. and put us down in there and didn't have no more problems.

One time a guard came down giving me shit and I never saw him again. I was like, that fucking motherfucker, you guys, we got an agreement. The agreement's over. You let the warden know, it's over. You know, it's manipulated. I'm like, and they're like, whoa, whoa, he's new. Look. And then they moved.

I mean, it was pretty. And so anyway, long story short, one day they called me up. And they said, your counselor needs to see you. And I went up there. And I called this, this like legal assistant that, was helping me with my appeal. And she's like, you beat your case. You're going home.

You won. Complete reversal. And so now I'm in my counselor's office. I'm like, I was innocent the whole time. And these guards are coming around there. They're like, they're letting this guy out. And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to move right here to Rollins. I can have guns now.

And they're just like, you know, because I mean, I was pretty. If you looked at it from that point, but you're like, wow. And so that, you know, I didn't move to Rollins and I got out. And so I ended up called, they wouldn't let me, I tried to mail some money. And I tried to write my friends back. in there and they were denying them. And I called and talked to the warden. And the warden's name was Vance Everett.

Hopefully someone knows him and they can send him this and tell him to get a hold of me. Because I've actually looked him up. You know, he was a good guy, you know. And he told me, he says, you're the worst prison I've ever seen in my life. He says, you still owe me a door, by the way, that door with a bad incident. And I told me, yeah, he says, man, he's like, I hope you're doing good, man. And you'd be good out there, you know. and we had a good conversation, but he was like,

I never had nothing like you, you know, and so I tried to look at him up. I couldn't find him though anywhere. But anyways, so yeah, I got out. You know, so after getting out from that, you know, let's be real, I got out and I was fucking wild, man, Ian. I mean. At least you're honest.

I was fucking, I was wild. Definitely probably not somebody in a frame of mind that should have been in society. You know, I just, my brother picked me up from up in Gillette, Wyoming. They brought me up there. And my brother picked me up. And he was living in a little house and all his friends. This is November 3rd, 99.

And, you know, this is meth was a big thing then. So he's got a house and he has all biker friends and saw biker friends and saw bikers and meth going on. And, you know, it's a pretty, you know, I was right into some, you know, and everyone's like, ah, you got out. And, you know, everyone's like, oh, you're going to. get millions you know you're in prison and so i used that you know i did have a lawsuit i was and uh you know girls are like oh man you're going to be rich i'm like yeah they said a couple million you know so you know it was good times and it was and i was just so wild and so i didn't have any money

and i tell people who owes you money let's go get it and they were like fuck cool man and so you know i'd roll over and and just you know get their money or whatever i could and i mean i you know they'd bring me the doors. I'd knock on doors. Do you want this fucking guy money? You know, anyways. And, you know, just and that, um, and a lot of times these guys would just let me keep it all. They just were happy someone got the guy that ripped them off, you know, and said, like, did you keep it all? And, uh, and then that kind of evolved into drug dealers and, you know, I'd never really been into selling drugs. You know, there's been some times in my life. But, um, and it just kind of evolved into, you know, finding people and people would come

me and tell me things you know hey this dude's over here he's got a bunch of shit he's selling you know and i'd be like oh yeah and so you know it's a small town you know this isn't you know new york city where you've got some mafia boss you just robbed his stash house and they're going to kill you you know um so some of it's probably hard to believe from someone who's living in you know a certain parts of you know the country and they're like you wouldn't steal it from us you know whatever was the next case the federal case the next case the next case was yeah so I got arrested I I got on probation for some burglaries and me and my my buddy Rolo and so they ended up I ended up getting probation and I was like

look I had a daughter I stayed out of trouble I was on probation for several years in no problems you know no dirty UA's and and and One day, my probation officer called me. I was selling cell phones for a company called Airtel. Anyways, it was like the next telephones. We didn't have them. I was top salesman. Nobody beat me.

I was making money legitimately, you know, doing very well financially. And my PO called me up, says, hey, come on in. And I came in. And they brought me to a conference room. And it was a bunch of cops, the drug task force. And I was like, what's up? And they were like, have a seat. And I think I'll stand.

And they told me, you know, hey, do you? You know this guy, David Spencer, they call him Spacoli. I'm like, yeah, I know who that dude is. What do you know about him? I said, he's selling drugs. He got caught, started ratting on people. Like, you know what I mean? That dude was just some rat.

You know what I mean? Some dumb-ass drug dealer. And they were like, what about you? And I said, I never got drugs from that, dude. They were like, what about your brother? I told him, I don't know. Ask my brother. You know, and they were like, well, we're asking you.

I said, well, look, man, I'm not a cop. I didn't sign up to be a cop. That's your job. I have a job and I do mine, you do your job. This is almost word for word. I mean, how this conversation went. And there was an FBI agent right there that was Matt. I never know his full name.

I never forget him in my life. And he looked at me and he says, you know, we can indict you too. And I said, for what? And he and he says to me, whatever the fuck we want. And I left. And my PO, she was in there. and I go to her office with her and she's like just I'm like fuck

what the fuck I don't have nothing to do with this I don't fuck with none of this meth shit I don't and she's like you'll be all right just don't worry about it I'm like no you hear that and so a few months later all these indictments came down and they indicted me with my brother and all his friends I didn't know none of these people I mean and uh so the judge let me out until trial he also let my brother out

I said no you know I was doing good and and uh so you know these lawyers man they don't fight for you. They don't want to do nothing, dude. They get that CJA money, that criminal justice act money, and they're not going to go to trial and risk not getting any more cases. You know, what I have to say about that is extensive, but, you know, the federal defender system in this country is a joke. You know, they whack up the extra money at the end of the quarter that they've got left over as bonuses. I mean, it's all permitted. They got to, you know, and so the more someone's going to trial, you know, they're going to get exed out. They're like, hey, Bob, what are you doing?

us all are bonus. I mean, it's a joke. It's a, it's, it's, it's, it's not cool. And, uh, so this, none of the lawyers, they gave me private lawyers, you know, and I finally fired a few and the judge said, go find a lawyer. You pick them and you let us know. So I found, they gave me the sheet of all the criminal justice, you know, contract lawyers. And I found this guy named Mark Garibault. And he's like, I'll fight the case. I'll take the case, man. And so I told him, we're going to trial. And of course, trial days come in. And he's like, you sure, you sure. Because they, everybody says are going to trial. And these lawyers are like, yeah, yeah, they all say that. So I'm like, oh, no. So I go to trial. I think five of us went to trial. And I've got to sit with all these

guys I've never met. And it's a conspiracy, you know, big drug conspiracy, 83 pounds of meth, several million dollars laundered, you know. And my brother's there as his lawyer and all these other guys. And, you know, so they get all these guys up on the stand to tell. And there really was no evidence against me. I didn't do anything. They got a couple people to live. up there, you know, so one guy, you know, a good friend of mine, you know, he was really solid dude, I thought, you know, I mean, like the most solid dudes you can imagine, you know, and this guy actually was in federal prison and wrote them and was like, I'll tell, you know, and so Lonnie Vandersluat, they bring him back up and he gets on the stand and, boy, Ian, you know,

these jury just ate it up. He sat up there and he was like, I'm with the Lord. And, And I prayed to God in my church group about what was right, you know. And then this dude just lied his ass off, said that he had bought drugs for me. I mean, the prices didn't he make sense. They were actually cheaper than the price that the head guy said he was selling him to. So how am I getting them? And then I got it from my brother. I mean, none of it added up, you know, and says I was selling him, you know, this drugs were so cheap.

But he only did it once or twice. Like, if I'm giving them you cheap, why would you not keep coming to me? And it was the same drugs. That way it was part of the... It was just a joke. And so the jury came back and convicted me. I thought there's no way. Drop my kids off at the babysitter and went in for the verdict.

I'm like, yeah, clearly I'm innocent. The prosecutor offered me probation to plead guilty during trial and said he would give me just marijuana charges and give me probation. And I told him, no, no deal. And the jury whacked me and found me guilty. They found me not guilty of the counsel. that I was charged with, but guilty of another count that I wasn't even named in.

And so no one knew what to do. And the judge was like, well, they found you guilty, so who cares? And so, you know, off I went. And so at sentencing, you know, I gave it to him. I've never, I speak my mind. You know, I'm not one of those guys who's like, Your Honor, I'm sorry.

So my brother went in and was like, Your Honor, I'm sorry. I sold drugs and I'm so, I mean, I love my brother, you know, but he told him, you know, I'm sorry, you know, and I want to get out. And then in the newspaper article, it says, his brother, Ben, was a different story. I take no acceptance for responsibility whatsoever, Ben McChesney told the judge. And then I just went on and said, you know, this is all the farce,

the whole drug, you know, thing. They go after the little guys. They don't go after the big guys. They're easy and they're, you know, easy pickings. It's like shooting fish in a barrel. And so, and the judge wasn't happy. And he was like, at the end, he says, you're blaming everybody but you.

And he said, I think a sentence at the high end of the guidelines. And I had told him, if this gets me the max, Your Honor, I stand by what? I didn't care, dude. I got it. And I said, the marshals were part of it. The lawyers. I said, this whole, you guys are all part of this. And, you know, I was mad.

I didn't have nothing to do it. I'm losing my wife and my kids and, you know, my freedom. And that's why I told him, you know, a father's being taken away from the ability to protect his children. Your Honor, this is not, you know, you're not doing any good here. I didn't do anything with these drugs. I never did meth. And so, you know, yeah, I got, I went 188 months.

So what happened is the, the, they felt bad, you know. And so they found where the judge made a mistake. And there was, you know, the guidelines, you know, all these points. So if the judge gave me, before I made my sentence, he gave me a minimal role in a conspiracy, which is a four point reduction in the matrix of sentencing. So it turns out if you give a four level reduction for minimum role, it says your base offense level can't be higher than a level 30.

Mumbled Jumbo, you probably understand it a lot better than most. And so the judge pulled us back and he has 10 days to make any fix a mistake in sentencing. Anyway, so he pulled us back and he said, look, I don't agree with it, but I have to drop you to a level 30 and then give you four points off. And so he did that. And he had to give me the maximum sentence of 10 years. And so I went to prison and I fought it. for 10 years. The U.S. Marshals actually told me in the van that the head witness had told them that he lied on me.

And my lawyer, that Mark Arabo wouldn't do nothing about it. And he didn't go bring it to the judge or anything. So when I finally beat it after six years, you know, I went back. I was my own attorney. They actually flew me in a nice little like Learjet from USP Victorville back to Billings. And it was like, where are you going? I'm going back to court. And usually when people hear that, they're like, I'm like, oh no, everyone's got my paperwork, you know, because everyone knew in my unit what was going on. I have all my paperwork, you know, boxes and boxes of paperwork. So, you know, when you hear someone, you know, especially at a USP and they're like, I'm going back to court, your mind automatically says, you know, what's going on? Because most of them are going back to court to tell or testify on somebody or something.

So anyway, I flew back. They flew me back, you know, on a little private jet because I had to get there for the hearing. And I wouldn't allow them to appoint a lawyer. The judge said, look, can you have a lawyer for the judge? the hearing. I said, no, no, we're not doing that. And thank God, too, really decent human beings, the U.S. Marshals, they came forward and they made me statements after, you know, a lot of years. And they said, yeah, this guy during a prisoner transport told us that, you know, Ben McChesney wasn't involved. And, uh, you know, we told him about it. No, his lawyer never

contacted us. They were like, he was real blasé. He said one time mentioned it to us, but like, you know and uh yeah and so the judge i did my hearing i put the prosecutor and this is the head assistant u.s attorney i subpoenaed him to the stand and he he didn't like that at all um i subpoenaed him and i subpoenaed the spacoli they call him from the for like that movie back in the day you know Spacoli, they, they pulled him on, I pulled him on the stand and, um, and I put my, uh, lawyer on the stand. And I question them, you know, right there in handcuffs. The judge wouldn't take me out of my cuffs. I said, Your Honor, can have me? He's like, no. So I was real loud with him and set him up on the podium. You can see him thinking like, oh, my nice podium,

I should have, and so I just, um, you know, I questioned the U.S. attorney, you know, how many times you put someone on a stand in trial and you know that they're not telling the truth, you know, all kind of really good questions and he's like ah um ah well uh and i'd be like your honor would you please instruct the witness to uh answer the question and you know they're friends basically you know the federal judge you'd look over like oh mrs cicora answer the question you know and this just went it was a joke almost the way this guy but and it went back and forth and so then i put the rat on the stand and my lawyer and said hey you know did you and at the end the judge said you know you did a great job representing yourself you know i'm thinking well fuck let me out there's no way i'm going to win

right like that's not happening so I go back to the county jail and I'm waiting and then the federal flight comes and goes and I'm like why wasn't the on it because I want to hurry up and get back you know to um you know USB victim you know you're in county jail people are a little more disrespectful and I'm in this kind of mind frame of you know USP and so you know things are happening in there you know and you know I'm getting in some fights and I was pretty wild you know I wasn't putting up with any disrespect and people in county jail are more likely they don't really you know, you're at a different time when you're on a, you know, like a USB yard. Your mind frame is all about respect and, you know, making sure I don't die or have to, you know,

do something to someone else and get more time. Were you in a USP the whole entire federal sentence before you beat the case? No. I worked my way up to a USB, truthfully. So, Ian, I actually worked my way down to a camp, which is pretty impressive, really, to be honest with you. And then I worked my way up. through a USPE. What did you start at L.O.?

I started at FCI Florence, Colorado Medium. Why did they start you at a medium? Because technically you didn't have any criminal history. Yeah, I was on probation at the time, though. So that gave me some points. And, you know, they have a whole scheme of custody points that they do. They changed it a few years back, quite a few years back. They used to have a different scheme and they changed the system.

But so they started me. Now, I was supposed to have like four points taken off. because I was out until trial. And so custody points, they had this thing and they wouldn't give me that. So they started me out at Florence. And I said, hey, man, I'm supposed to be in a camp. And they're like, no, no, no, dude, it ain't working like that. I'm like, no, I was out to trial.

I didn't have no violations. I went to court, you know, myself. They cuffed me up. I'm like, I get these points. And so my counselor said, look, give me about a year, a year and a half. And I'll put you into a low and you can argue it when you get there. And so I did that. And he sent me to a low.

And I went to Sandstone, Minnesota. and I got to Sandstone and I manipulated my way. In Sandstone it's all dorms, but there's an honor unit with cells, F unit. You've got to be there years on the list and you have to have clear conduct. It's hard to get an F unit. I manipulated my way into F unit within about a month

and it caused a lot of problems in their controversy because I couldn't sleep in the dorm and I was having all these issues like, hey, motherfuckers, you got to be sleep. And I'm going and telling dudes, hey, you guys mind? Like, we're all sleeping. You guys are over here being loud and I'm putting boots on.

And, you know, and I mean, I'm not Billy badass by any means. Don't get me wrong. I'm not, you know, but it's like, you know, I'm asleep. So I got into it with some gang members of another race. And I'm like, you know, anyways, I'm backed up in the corner and I got a big rod sharpened down. I'm like, well, what's up? And then their leader came and was like, you know, stopped it. What are you guys doing?

And so I told the psychologist, I'm like, I don't know. I just want to go back to the medium. I can't deal with this. It's fucking just, I just, I'm someone's going to die. I'm going to die. They're going to die. I don't know. I just don't know what to do, you know.

And she's like, what if I could get you into a, like a cell? I'm like, what? Which, you know, that was my whole point in the very beginning going over there. You know, I planned all this out, you know, and it worked. I couldn't believe it. And that day, two guys got caught making wine in the unit over there, which so cells never come open. And it was just crazy. All of a sudden, they were like, Chesney, roll it up.

And I'm like, yeah, they come with like, you're going over F unit. And so I'm over there packing my stuff. People like, where are you going, dude? Hey, Mon. Montana, Montana. Everyone called me Montana in there. Where are you going? I'm like, I don't know, it's over here. I'm an F unit. What? F unit. And then everybody started getting mad and it became, you know, everything's racial. It became a big racial thing. You know, there wasn't a lot of, there was a lot of black people there. I think at the time there was any in that unit. And so it became, because I'm white. You know what I mean? I'm getting to go to F unit. And these dudes been on the list for years. And they've been waiting. And it was just big. I'm just packing my stuff. Like, I don't know about none of that. and I'm gone, and so I went over to Epunit. And so I started filing grievances, right? I'm pretty good at it.

And the key with filing grievances in the federal prison system is you've got to see it all the way through. So you've got to file an informal with your counselor, then you've got to file the BP9 with the warden, and then when he denies it, you've got to go to the regional, and then you've got to file to D.C. And then after that, you can file in court. And it's a process that takes about six months,

And you have to, there's all these pitfalls. If you don't do it just right, it gets denied, you got to start over, and then people give up. And it's designed for that. But if you can learn how to do it perfectly, you know, then you're golden. And then it's like, okay, this guy's putting his paperwork the right way. And so I started filing and filing. And one day I went to the warden at Mainline.

I'd tell him, oh, you guys been violating policies. I'm like an inspector. Like I would carry my file folder. And he'd be like, go get something to eat. I'll wait here. I'm like, no, you did that. last time, Warden, you did that last time. His name was Warden Cross. I'd say, you, you told me that, and then you slipped out, man, I'll eat another time. But look, and so I'm printing out, you know,

policies that cards are violating and things. And I'm like, look, this is all wrong. And so one day I went up to them, they had taken smoking out of the feds, but the guards were still smoking on the, in a little smoke shack. Well, they had an appeal. They were saying it was a change of working conditions, so we're allowed to smoke until our appeal is finalized. So I went to the warden, And I told him, so look, here's the next one. It's a big one, warden. I'm like, so your guards are smoking in violation of the Clean Air Act. He's like, I'm like, I know that they have an appeal.

I said, but the actual intent of Congress was to change the working conditions of all federal employees. So their appeal we both know is going nowhere. I'm like, I'm just saying. And so in the meantime, they really are violating the law. And I understand that the Guard Union has an appeal. And so I start, and he says, what is it you want? And it's all I've been waiting for. I closed my book.

oh I just want to go to the camp I'm supposed to have camp points and they won't they won't change them he said hold on to that and that afternoon my counselor came to me and was like Bchesney said yeah he says I don't know what you fucking did

because we'd already got into it and he says but you're going to the camp and you don't get a pick which one you're going to Duluth I was like cool so they transferred me to the camp I get to the camp my first day I met a guy named Shannon Power he's a pretty cool dude he's a good dude

I'm in contact with him to this day. I'm in contact pretty much with, you know, a lot of the people that I did time with all over the country. I've got my little black book. You know, I've, you know, I've never been a rat. I've never been, I've never been run off a yard. I've never had any of the bad things put on my name. So, you know, I'm, I have a lot of friends from all over the country that, you know, I've done time with from everywhere. And so anyway, Shannon Power, I met him and, you know, he was doing moves, man. He was a wealthy guy in there. And, you know, we all had cell phones.

And he would structure, you know, stuff. He's out now. He's not on paper or nothing anymore. He's all the way out. And he would structure, you know, things. And so he would get duffel bags full of stuff, you know, mailed to someone's relative who was getting a visit. And I would jump the fence and get the duffel bag and bring it back. And, I mean, and it was a lot actually there.

There was a big fence there, actually. So to get the bags and some people just have their family drive by. and like throw it over the fence by the yard where you walk. I would actually had to go under cameras, around cameras. I mean, all the way to the back at night, where you're not even supposed to be through, it's an old Air Force space. So past all these buildings,

and then I would jump the fence and wait by the road. And then it was struggle sometimes these big duffel bags. And then I'd bring them up and I had a key to a bus that was, I was in the machine shop. So I was a machinist apprentice and that's where I worked. So we had old buses back there, you know, and there's old equipment and stuff. You know, it's a camp.

And so I would open up under the bus and I'd put the duffel bags there until the next day. The next day I'd check out the truck and I'd go over there and I'd have pillowcases inside of laundry bags. So you can't see. And I'd load everything in there, cartons and cartons of cigarettes and cell phones and pornography DVDs and DVD players and, you know, lobster tails a couple times. I mean, just, you know, and load it in there. And then I'd bring it back to the unit and we'd stash it. And we had some pretty good spots. You know, we'd have to, he had so much stuff that he would have to number the bags, like number 14 and keep a list.

Like bag number 14 has, you know, six cartons of Newport's in it. You know what I mean? All this in it. Bag number 12. So we actually had this spot where you opened it and there was all these pipes. Well, the pipes had been cut and soldered new little pieces so you could lift it up and open it, almost like a cage. So when the guards looked in this pipe chase, it's all these pipes. They didn't realize you could lift them up and move them.

And a small guy could get up there in the ceiling. And it was a good spot. And there was another spot, you know, that we had had. But that was just in one of the units. Did you ever think about escaping? They closed that. I think they're closed. Duluth is closed now.

I don't know. It's supposed to have been closed, I think. Did you ever think about escaping? No. I did go to the hotel once with a girl. You know, that was pretty wild, you know? And would you have someone at the camp doing the lookout? Oh, yeah, great.

Because I'll tell you what, you jump and you don't get back. Can they do account or anything? You're done. How did you meet the girl? It was a friend of mine from Billings. They drove there. She drove there. I had him go get cell phones, a lot of stuff.

You can only buy, like, three cell phones at a time back then because of, like, terrorist reasons. And so they had to go to, like, all these stores all over and all over on the way here just to get enough phones. You know, I had, like, 50, 60 phones in a bag. The funny thing is, so I had these sweatpants and I had sewed pockets down them. So I was thinking I was going to fill them up and just come back in with them. So I get to the hotel and I got all these cell phones.

in these sweatpants and it's just, you know, it's dragging me down. I'm like, you can't wear these. And another thing is, so all these cell phones, you know, they come in these packages, right? Well, you're hard to get into. Well, there's no knife.

She didn't have a knife or anything. So I'm in this hotel room. You know what I'm, I promised everyone, I'm bringing them back, you know, Burger King, you know, some guys that are watching for me. And I, all I had is she had a little pair of,

um, uh, scissors for cutting eyelashes. And so I'm like digging it into the packages. and I'm ripping them open and I'm pulling the chargers out. Most of them I'm not bringing because we have a lot of charge. And I'm pulling the phone and the SIM cards. And it was just, you know, and it's like cutting them. And I'm trying to hurry because, you know, we got count time coming.

And, you know, no longer you're out there, the more risks that something happens. And I got to go. And so finally I got, I did have a bag too, you know, a laundry bag. So I go it in there. So she pulls back up by the back. I jump out of her car and tell her, go, go. So they don't see a car stopping on the cameras. There's a blind spot.

you know, if they see a car go past and it doesn't come back out the other side to some point, they're going to want around the corner. And I jumped out. My coat sleeve got caught in the door. So she drove off. And I'm like, so she drove off dragging my coat, you know. And I chipped over the fence and I get all the way back safe, man. And, you know, there was a few times, too.

When I, one time the cops were chasing me through the place. They didn't know who I was, but they knew they had someone that got something over the fence. And so I've got this. And I had, I didn't have all the stuff, but I had like a small duffel bag. of like the really important stuff that we had got that time. So like some cell phones and some portal mags and DVDs. And so I'm running, man, and I'm going in a unit. I go out a window.

I mean, it was pretty, anyways, they're trying to catch you there, you know. And there's a lot of that stuff's happening, you know. But anyways, I finally actually, so I got kicked out of there for fighting. That's pretty much everything. Who did you fight with at the camp? I wasn't trying. Oh, there was sometime. One time I was actually in Chow Hall and I was telling a story. You know, and I have a lot. I've done a lot of stuff. You know, I mean, and I don't exaggerate it.

The average person is probably like, oh, this is all exaggerated. Yeah, well, fuck, whatever. You know what I mean? I don't blame you. You know, you lived, you know, a very protected life. So I was telling a story and this guy's like, oh, yeah, right. Ah, yeah, yeah. One time, the cops had raided me and I, and I, they couldn't get in and I had a pound of weed and I was flushing it and it was a brick, so I'm beating it. Anyways, it was a, And it wasn't a big deal, you know It was actually, you know, a real story, you know This guy's just overhearing it in Chowline And he starts, you know, and it's cool If he doesn't believe it, I don't mind But he starts, you know, in my face, you know,

Getting disrespectful, you know, like telling these guys Yeah, one time I had 10 keys of Coke and not And making fun of me And so, you know, I turned around and said, Hey, dude, I beat the fuck out of him right there in line You know, I'm just being honest with you like, That was it And that's not something that happens, you know,

in the camp. Matter of fact, like my second day there, the cops raided our room and got some shit. One of the things I got was some porno mags I bought, you know, as soon as I got there, I'm like, I can get pornography here, you know, it was a big deal, you know, I'm like, so I bought, and so they raided and this guy's like, none of this happened until you got here, you know, basically calling me a rat, I don't know, you know, so I took off on him right then and there, walk, wow, and later, everyone's like, dude, you shouldn't have done that. I'm like, why he didn't say anything. I'm like, he was calling me a rat, and they're like, well, he didn't actually call you a rat, you know, And I'm like, no, man, the dude said none of this happened until I got here.

So the guards came in, you know, and raided. So if that never happened until I got here, he's saying that I caused that somehow. You know, I don't fucking anyways. And so, whatever. And so this last time, though, so what happened is I lost my job in the machine shop. And which sucks, we cooked out there mostly. Like, we got like 50 pound bags of potatoes stolen from the kitchen. We get everything right back.

there and just cook constantly. And, and so I got fired off that job. And I needed another job that I could move around. So I talked to this boss of, because they started making it 10 minute moves. You used to be able to go everywhere. And they started saying you can only move every 10 minutes on the top of the hour from, you know, one to 110. You could go make moves. And from then, you couldn't really move around. But if you were a guard worker, a yard worker, you know, you could move. So I went and told this inmate, I said, hey, bro, you know, you know, in the clerk, I said, hey, I talked to your boss, man. He said, come let you know to put me on the, you know, put me on.

And the dude was like, you know, that's my job. You don't just. I'm like, well, I don't know, bro. I went to the guard and asked him and he said, yeah. You know, and this dude felt like offended. You know what I mean? That like, I didn't come to him, you know, just. And so I was like, well, look, bro.

And he just started, you know, getting real disrespectful. And so, you know, that was it. I snatched him up. He wasn't a very big guy. You know what I mean? but I mean, fuck, I don't care. He's like, you know, it was, I mean, he was like, you know, and I suppose for a camp, that's acceptable to talk to somebody that way, you know,

but I've just never really been that way. And so I snatched him up and just, you know, it was pretty, and he broke his arm somehow. He hit a chair. And so the cops come running in, and I'm like, all these chairs are everywhere. He's breathing heavy. You know, it's clear. I'm like, ah, I'm very fast.

I'm very fast. When the cops come, it's a minute. immediate that I'm like, ah, I would just play a bad. Hey, man, see, I would just have a good time in here. I mean, it don't matter, bro. I could be bloody, you know, whatever. And I'm like, ah, yeah, we're just playing. I'm always trying to not get caught. And he's like, no, we went playing, motherfucker. So they fucking put us in the hole. And then they're like, look, dude, you broke this dude's arm. And then so we both got shipped out. And there's only two cells in the camp right there. He's in the cell next to me. I'm like, you fucking worm. Dude, like, well, you started all this.

Like, I didn't start it. I don't start anything. I've never started anything, you know. So anyways, and so I left the camp, and they sent me to Oakdale, Louisiana, a low. And there's child molesters on the yard there. You know, the camp, there's no sex offenders. They can't go to a camp. And when I went through Sandstone was a low.

But at the time, when I went through Sandstone, there was like no sex offenders on the yard, at least not white sex offenders. You know, I mean, you know how it is. Like, I can't get in other people's business. You don't really, you know, you don't have a say-so no matter what in this other racial groups, you know, who they let there. But there was a relationship. There was like one guy that was like, you know, had a 16-year-old girlfriend and he was like

half-retarded. You know what I mean? He wasn't, you know, no offense. You know, he was like a little bit mentally ill. But anyways, so I didn't, I don't do well around any sex offenders. Like, I can't live on a sex offender yard. So I got to Oakdale, Louisiana, and there were sex offenders. so I just started doing things to him.

Slopping him around. You know, like, I was like, I'm not staying here. So it wasn't like I was going to make a life of, you know, like this is where I'm going to be, you know, staying. So I really didn't give a shit. I choke him out. One time this guy tells me, he's like, man, Montana, he says, man, I see you walking across street.

You had your arm around that sex offender. I'm like, what the fuck is he doing? He's like, I get close from your fucking ground. I'm like, you're going to go. You know what I'm going to? You know what? And he's just like, oh, my guy, you're a fucking little piece of shit. I'm smacking him.

Anyway, I'm not saying all this is appropriate necessarily. You know, that's not who I am now, but... Do these sex offenders fight back? No. No. They're not fighting back. And so finally, that's actually what happened. We had one called Super Mo.

And I went in there to the bathroom. I had told him, hey, don't look at me, don't come around me, you know? And then, like, later on, I look over and he was just sitting there staring at me. And so he went in the bathroom. I went there bashed his face on the fucking sink. I mean, literally just, bam! Just lit him up a little bit and walked out.

And a lot of times, they won't tell. And the reason that they won't tell is because they're scared of getting shipped somewhere too. And then they've got to start all over and maybe there's a guard that puts them on a place they can't be. And so, you know, I have some controversial thoughts on a lot of that. It's not just with the sex offenders, Ian. Let me tell you something. It's with everybody. It's with the dudes that are all tatted up, fucking face tatted, neck tatted,

gang members. You know what I mean? And to be real, a lot of those dudes ain't doing fucking shit. I see it every day. I see people that got out of prison. I see some of the things that they're, you know what I mean? You know, they're too hard for the yard, you know? And, uh, I've been to so many places where there's like sex offenders on the yard and there's all these like, you know, gang members, you know, some of them are like pretty heavy gangs, you know, and, uh, they don't do shit to them. And then they get out of prison and they tell all their homies, yeah, I wasn't there doing a hard time. I didn't do this. I didn't do that. And I'll be honest with you for me you know no offense you know and i'm not saying everyone's like that but look the fact

the matter is bro you wasn't in there smashing no sex offenders you know people think that these child molesters are going to prison and they're being harmed this ain't the 70s man that's not what's happening they're completely and utterly protected i mean you put hands on a sex offender you know what they do they fucking ship you i don't give a fuck about getting shipped i do time anywhere i mean i've been doing time my entire life. I mean, just being honest with you. So for me, I don't care if I get shipped. I got paperwork to the moon. I got stacks of it. Everything about me is online. You can go Google it and look it up and be like, oh, fuck, here it is. It's all there. You know what I mean? I've got my FBI files and I've got all the, the, which is important for me and for the way that I carry myself in

there. It's important that I don't have just an envelope with my docket sheet saying that I'm not a rat. they've taken out all the paperwork in the federal prison system that would show if you told on somebody. So everybody has their docket sheet. And it just shows basically, oh, he had a court hearing for this, a court hearing for that, right? It doesn't say that you didn't tell on anybody, you know, just because. And so a lot of them, different districts,

a lot of them will have like little padlocks next to them, you know. And it's like, you know, so a lot of people in prison and even in the USPs and other gang members and other race, I had a lot of times they would come to me and they'd be like, hey, Montana, you know, very privately, you know, they'd be like, hey, we got a homie, we heard some shit. Would you look at his paperwork for me? This is his docket sheet. And that's something you really got to be careful with. You know, I'm white. I didn't really run with anybody ever in there. I never ran with no gangs. I'm white. So no matter what, I'm white. I mean, I'm running with the whites, you know, but I didn't politic. I didn't go sit at the big white. I've sat at like white tables. You know what I mean? It sat where I wanted to in those situations, you know, but there's like gang tables. And I stayed away and I taught people, you know, hey, look, you know, there's got, you know, gang, white gang tables. And they'd say, Montana, man, come sit with us, bro.

And I would always, you know, hey, and thank you, brother. I appreciate, you know, the offer, you know, because once you start sitting there and hanging out with them, you know, you're going to start hearing all these politics and things and they're going to ask you, hey, what do you think, Montana? You know, this dude did this and this dude did that, you know what I mean? and next thing, you know, you're kind of in the mix of things, you know. And so I tried to stay away from all that. And one of the things that allowed me to do that, Ian, was the fact that I have all my paperwork. I have every word spoken in my cases. I have transcripts from trials.

I have my pre-sentence report, the PSR, which, you know, people can't have in there. And if you told it's in your PSR, it's like, that's your big report, you know, that they make for the judge to tell them how to sentence you. You're not allowed to have that. I was my own attorney. So I have that, you know, and I have. You know, I had three copies hidden throughout all my paperwork. And in one place I went, USP Beaumont. Matter of fact, my first one, they went through it pretty heavy.

I was surprised. And they found most of two of them. So I was left with only one and part of one. And so, you know, I'd make more copies, though. And so, but long story short, it gave me a little bit more credibility, you know, if you would. And so, you know, it's like, you know, when you get to federal prison, anytime you get transferred, you know, as soon as you get to a new prison, which, you know, I've been to a lot, you know, they're like, oh, yeah, man, it's all about the paperwork. And it's funny, because

let me be real with you. Most of the dudes that want to see your paperwork don't have clean paperwork. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah. It's a fucking joke, bro. It's like, you know, especially even you get into the lows, even more. You know what I mean? It's like, all these dudes are running around checking paperwork and you're like, dude, there's no way. And you can talk to them. And, you know, if you have a, I have a very legal mind and I understand it, federal law, you know, intrinsically. And it's like, oh, yeah, I had 20 pounds of meth. You know what I mean? They gave me six years. And you know, and you're like, okay, 20 pounds of meth sentencing guideline. You know what I mean? You start adding it all up. And, you know, it's all math in the feds.

They don't just pick a number to sentence you to. It's so it's like, how did you get to such a low level? You know, you got six years. Like, no, it sounds like you got 12 and maybe you got a 50% reduction, you know, for testifying or agreeing to testify. And in a lot of these, people don't know. And a lot of the plea agreements, there's wording in there. So my brother was going to take a plea agreement in our federal case. He said, I'll plead guilty. And he only said he would if they would take out this one sentence. And they actually refused. And a sentence said, you agree to cooperate in any and all future proceedings. You know what I mean? Concerning like this case. And it was basically, and so it was like, it's a contract. People don't think, this is a contractor

signing here. So later on, he gets sentenced. And then later on, one of his friends is selling dope. and they come to him, hey, you're going to go to court and testify on this dude. And he says, no, they can, like, we're taking back your agreement and you're going to get sentenced, you know, to what you were gotten. And so they use that leverage, and that's how the federal system operates. And so anyways, I've seen that, you know, a lot. And, you know, a lot of times without paperwork now, no one knows that you're hot except for your co-defendant that you told on. And they've got, you've got separaties on him. So he can't even be in the same prison as you. And so what happens is nobody wants to.

to transfer. If you're hot and you're on a yard, you definitely don't want to get a transfer, right? Because you're comfortable. No one knows. You got friends. You got homies. You know, dudes that are going to back you up. And so you don't want to do anything that's going to get you shipped. And so if you're already a rat, you'll tell, you'll do anything secretly. So if there's someone, you know, like me who maybe is getting close to fucking thinking like, I don't know, bro, something's up with this dude. You know, you're going to go fucking tell the cops or something. Like, hey, counsel, like this dude is fucking checking paperwork or something, you know, try to get me jammed up. So I get out of there because I'm a threat to your livelihood.

You know, it's just, and so these are the things that happen in there. And it's all this, all these deep, dark chess moves happening, you know. And it really is like a game of chess. And you've got to constantly, you know, and fortunately for me, you know, since I was, you know, 10 years old, I've been playing this chess game, you know, of incarceration. And so it was a lot more easy for me. and I'm able to watch things. And so I smashed the child molester there,

and they shipped me. So Ian, they shipped me to, um, what was that dumbass place? I don't know, I'd have to look at the map. But they shipped me to a medium security prison. Um, didn't last very long.

Uh, and, uh, there were sex offenders on the yard. And the day I got there, I got in a fight with a dude who had made some kind of comment about me. I don't remember what it was, but it was something that, like,

I didn't like the way that he said it. You know what I mean? It was like saying, like, I was suspicious or something. You know what I mean? I don't fully remember. All I remember is that the way he said it in the room, you know what I mean?

Whatever it was, it wasn't right. It wasn't what he was saying was I felt, you know, he was trying to throw something at me. And so I fucking got it with him right then and there. I don't hesitate. You don't wait. I don't wait for someone to get a knife.

I don't wait for someone to go get their friends. I don't wait for someone to go tell. If the shit's going to go down and I know like, look, it's going down. I'm trying to gain the advantage. And that's just part of, you know, survival, you know. You know, you're not going to wait for somebody to prepare better. You know, if shit's going to go down, they should have prepared for they started talking shit.

But they're not thinking that this guy's going to. And so I did. So that kind of started me out already. with like the white dudes on that yard because this dude had already been there and I just got there they don't know me and you just beat this dude up you know what I mean and I beat his ass you know I mean just being honest like and so it's like oh you think you're tough like no I don't think I'm tough man none of them he didn't actually it was something he didn't actually call you a rat you know but whatever he said was close enough basically you know what I mean and so I started

telling all the white dudes I got along with some of them right away you know And I was like, hey, let's clean this yard. So, you know, let's get the child molesters off this yard. And it's kind of hard to do, but it can be done. It can be done. You know, everyone has to just to start, you know, getting them. And then, you know, you're all going to get locked down. And there's going to be some casualties.

Some of us are going to get shipped. You know what I mean? They're going to be like, all right, well, we're shipping you to a USP now. And that's the big scare thing for all these dudes. Oh, don't want to go to a USP. Let me tell you something. out of all the 14 federal prisons I've been to from camps, lows, mediums, and USPs, three USPs, multiple mediums, camps, transfer centers,

I would rather be in USP or camp. Like if I could pick one, I'd rather be in a camp. But if I can't be in a camp, I would rather be in a USP than a medium or a low. Because you've got so much more respect than a USB. Like, if you're a dumbass and you just talk greasy to people, or you get high and you can't pay your business, bills or you're a rat or you've got some past sex offense no one knows about you don't want to go to a usp but you know if you're a good dude and you're solid you're not a rat you're not a sex offender

you're not an idiot the usp is the place to be you know i mean it's cool everybody you meet some really good people there and that's usually where like the more cream of criminals are the more criminally minded instead of just the ones who were like yeah i mean my homies were smoking meth i had a pistol I was running around like an idiot and got pulled over and I got 10 years. And now I'm in prison. And so they go into prison. And what do they do? They hurry up and get a fucking neck tattoo.

I mean, listen, I'm going to be honest with you, man. This might be controversial. And I know a lot of dudes who have facial tattoos and neck tattoos and hand tattoos. And a lot of them are really good, solid fucking dudes. I mean, like, you know, killers or, you know, solid dudes. But the majority of them are. If I was a rat, the first. first thing I would do when I got to prison would probably get my neck blasted.

And I'm going to be truthful, man. I'm giving it to you. Why, it's a little... You know damn well what I'm talking about, Ian. Nobody says it. I don't think so, because I've seen some of your people here that you've had, you know, and some of them seem all right. You know, I'm sure there's some good dudes and some are maybe seem full of shit.

You know, I'm sure in the comments there's going to be a bunch of little fucking pussies running their mouth about me. I'm cool with that, bro. It's cool. You know what I mean? That's what you do. I get on there and run my mouth about these dudes, you know, that seem inauthentic. You know, but I'm authentic and I don't lie.

You know, one of the things I learned years ago, when I started is like, you know, not lying. The Four Agreements, you know, always tell the truth. And it's a great book. That thing saved my life and changed my life a lot, the Four Agreements. Have you read that? No, I haven't. I'll check it out.

Every prisoner should read it, you know. Don't lie. Always be precise. Anyways, it's really, like, amazing. You know, don't take anything personally. Nothing other people do is because of you. And when I really started understanding that, it made it easier in prison. And I didn't fight as much anymore.

Like towards the last three years of my sentence, I really started changing quite a bit. And I realized, like, you know, people would get mad. I had a guy in state prison come yell at me in my face. Motherfucker, I'll tear you apart. Big dude, doing life. And in the past, what I probably would have done was de-escalate the situation. I probably would have went and microwave something in the fucking microwave some water

and douched his ass with it. You know what I mean? Because he was big. and I probably couldn't take this dude and he was big and angry and a big dude. We were talking about religion with somebody and he was Jewish and I was telling this dude well Muslims actually, if you think about it,

their religion is actually pretty solid. I was like, you know, I'm not religious but, you know, I was telling him because I had a friend that was Muslimist and he ran a lot of shit down to me and it was interesting. But anyways, and so this dude just got mad and all of a sudden wah, it was in my face, like motherfucker! And I was like, whoa, like, hey man.

So, but in the past, you know, but instead, I didn't take it personally like he's living the life and doing what he wants to do because of the agreements that he has made with himself on how to live his life and how to treat people and how to respond to certain stimulations and situations and so I was like hey man yeah I got a problem you do you know what I mean I was like and he's like get in your fucking house I'm not gonna get in my house not a bitch so I stood there and I didn't escalate the situation I learned about not escalating and watching my body language and my you know those nonverbal cues and I said hey man by the way I didn't get to meet you before my name is ben mcchesney and I just kept I count with him and, you know, straight face. Like, I don't need to fucking meet you. I'm like, oh, that's cool, man. And I was like, so anyways, no disrespect to you. You know, I kept the tone low.

But I learned these things, these de-escalation techniques that I never learned before in the past. It was like, brah, I got to get it right now. And so, you know, we, we walked away. And at the end, right before the end, I told him, I said, hey, hey, you need a hug, man? And he was like, what? I was like, I mean, you know what I mean?

I mean, I don't know what you're going through, bro. or if you are going through anything, I'm like, but if you need a hug, you want to just talk. He's like, I don't need a hug, dude. And he left, but I saw it, thought, you know, you can see him thinking. And later on he came to me, he's like, look, bro, usually if I get in a situation with somebody,

they can't live in the unit no more with me. You know what I mean? He's like, because I'm not going to watch my back, you know? And I was like, yeah, yeah, he's like, are we cool? I said, listen, bro, come in the house, bro, let's come talk. And I got really good friends with a dude. You know what I mean? Like, we ended up being, you know, and it was like,

you know, later on, he's like, you have any problems. You let me know, I'll handle them. You're getting your parole, brother. You know, I got life. You don't, you know, so let me deal with anything. And so, you know, it was, you know, using people that could, you know, help me just in life in general. And so, but he was always like, man, I can't remember. I can't believe it that day.

You asked me if I need a hug, you know. And that's kind of like the four agreements. So I started really changing the last, you know, three or four years of my life. I actually had three books that I read over and over and only three books. And that's it. I didn't read anything else because I said, if I can master these three books, then I'll be good. And, you know, that was it. One was Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Amazing book. I've got three copies, you know. They were highlighted. I got them in my glove boxes and my cars. And the other one was 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. And the other was the four agreements by

Don Miguel Ruiz. And I just, those was it. I'd read them. And then I'd try to teach other inmates. and say, hey, you know, I learned, you know, in think and grow rich, you know, basically how the conscious mind is the gateway to the subconscious. And so my whole life, Ian, I never realized that by thinking about crime and allowing myself to think about crime, that it was leaking into my subconscious mind, you know, this fertile garden that will grow anything. And so I started realizing that I can't allow myself to think bad thoughts. So you have to be your own parent. And that's actually what drugged me out of it is,

is I have an avatar of me in there. So you've got the angel and the demon. You know, it's all the same thing. But you can't let the demon win. You know? And so the only way is to make the angel stronger. And so it's the same thing. And so I have to be my own parent because

I never really, I love my parents, don't get me wrong, but I never really had parents. I didn't really have, I was guided mostly growing up by other criminals and kids that were wild and guards and treatment teams. And so I have becoming my own parent. So if I have a bad thought now, I instantly get myself in trouble. I have to.

So if I'm driving down the road and I see a pawn shop, and it's like gold and silver pawn shop, and I'm thinking like, dang, I wonder what kind of security they have. Let me go rob the joint. Right. I've got to stop. And I've got to tell myself, hey, dude, what's fucking wrong with you? Why would you even allow those thoughts to come into your mind?

And that's actually the key, I think, to staying out of prison. One of the keys, you know, it's a whole ring. And so I would teach that to people in there about becoming stronger in the mind and creating that parent avatar to where you have to get in trouble with yourself. And for me, truthfully, I mean, that did it. it's hard at first, but the discipline, you can't just say, you've got to stop what you're fucking doing,

and you've got to go somewhere peaceful and quiet, and you've got to get in trouble with yourself. You've got to put yourself in the corner for your thoughts, because the thoughts turn to actions. You know, thoughts are words, words are actions, actually become who you are, you know, all those little. And I'm like, damn. And so when I really started doing that,

it really, and lying, I mean, God, you know, I don't think we ever realize how much we lie, just in general, when it doesn't even need to be. And so always telling the truth, you know, that was one of the four agreements. And then there's also a segment, you know, in 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. And I pretty much cut lying, like, out of my life. You know, it's been like five and a half years. And, you know, it gets you in trouble sometimes.

Sometimes it makes me too open, you know, and you say things, you know, that maybe you shouldn't have, you know, Doesn't mean that you have to say everything, you know, I've got, but it's just great. You'd be like, who I am, you know, like, I don't care if people know him a felon, for instance. I can give me shit, dude. Everything in my life guided me to be in who I am today. So, you know. So you get out of prison, you beat the case that from that federal sentence at like the six-year mark. Yep.

So I got out, I beat the case. You know, I was in county jail waiting to go back to the fed. you know, and I called this girl that I was kind of loosely talking to, and her dad is a really good local attorney and her stepmom, and I called her up, and she's like, you beat your case, you beat your case. I'm like, what? She's like, you're going home. The judge just signed the order today, and I'm like, what?

No way. She's like, yeah, yeah, you're coming home. I was like, holy shit. She's like, you can come live with me. I was like, that was not the plan, you know, so I was like, ah. So anyways, and I told everyone in jail, yeah, I beat my case. Everyone started kicking the doors and the whole place was rocking. It was pretty cool.

And the cards ended up coming down saying, pack your shit. I got out, you know, and this good kid, you know, and this good kid, he's like, look, bro, I'm going to prison. You can have all my clothes. And he had a lot of really nice clothes or nothing. I had a lot of, he had all nice clothes and shoes, all his packed up in boxes and tubs at his sisters. And I went over there and she's like, hey, he told me give them all to you. So I was great, you know, I'm really good friends with him still to this day.

He's back in jail, unfortunately. But so I, you know, I had to, you know, clothes right away. and it was, you know, pretty wild. And so I, but, you know, I was like, look, I don't want to get in trouble anything. So I ended up, I ended up kind of staying with that girl, Lisa. She's cool. But, and then I met my wife. And a friend of mine was like, hey, bro, you know, you got to meet my old lady's sister.

She works over here at Burger King. And I went over and I'm like, wow, you know, she's, you know, she's a pretty girl, you know. And we had a good time and talked to her. And, you know, I fixed her car for her. It was something simple. And then she was like, oh, I'll pay you for that. I'm like, no, I just got to go out on a date with me. Let's go to a movie, you know.

And she's like, you know, all right, cool. And then, you know, I was like, I don't really like to go to movie theaters. You know, let's just watch a movie at home, you know. And I don't. I hate movie theaters. I hate anywhere. I don't go to comedy shows. I don't really like to go out at all.

I mean, I go out. I just don't. Anyways, I don't like to have appointments. I don't like to have somewhere that I have to be at all. It makes me feel. controlled. So, you know, I don't like how, I can imagine have a job just, you know, I like working for someone that could fire me and then having, basically I don't like my life being in the control of anybody else at all, possibly. I want to be in complete control of everything.

And so, anyways, yeah, I met her. And so we got together. And she was, you know, I was very attracted to her. She's hot. She's fucking nuts. You know, And it just, you know, she was only 19 at the time. And my, you know, my stepson, he has Down syndrome, just a fucking amazing little boy, you know? I mean, he was just awesome. I love being his dad, you know. It was just he needed that like, rah, male presence, you know.

Like a little caveman. You know what I mean? And it's like, you know, a big wolf mad, you know? And so, because, you know, he hit his mom a lot and stuff. And I'd be like, hey, and I'd grab him by his shirt, you know, and I'd pick him up. And you could see his eyes just go wide. And he'd like, ooh, big wolf angry.

Like, into my mind, that was like, he was like realizing like, you know, hey, and I'm like, don't you hit your mom, you'd be nice, you know. And I love that boy, you know, he was great. And so, but so it, she's, she decided that she didn't want to have, be married. You know what I mean? Well, so I'm trying to, anyway, sorry, in my mind of, let me see, I'm trying to like process how to give it in the best, shortest, because it was such a influential part of my life and my future.

You know, this, this, this, you know, the only time I'd been married. And, you know, so she decided she didn't want to be together. She had an ex-boyfriend, wanted to be with her. And then she came back to me, and this went back and forth. And finally we decided to get married. So we got married on December 23rd, a couple days before Christmas, went down to the courthouse. And I was thinking maybe this will let her know that I'm serious. And I just want to have, you know, a good peaceful life.

And by the way, we never fought, which is really interesting. We never, ever, ever had any fighting, any arguments. We got along great. It was amazing, right? But there was something else that was always going on in her mind. And her mother hates men. I mean, just being honest with you. So her mom would be like, you don't need a man.

You should leave your man. You don't need a man. And, you know, she was living at home before with her mom and paying the bills. And mom kind of wanted her back. Just to be honest, like, I don't, you know, I'm trying to say anything bad. But this is what I've got. I'm really close with some of her sisters to this day still. really good people.

And I, you know, I love them. They're like family to me. And so, you know, and her twin sister, she's a twin. And her twin didn't like her. You know, it was like I was the bad guy, you know, taking her away from her best friend. And so, you know, her twin would tell her, you know, leave him, leave him, leave him.

This is a constant thing. And so she'd come home and back and forth. And it was always she had this going, you know, in her mind. And so she, so with this happened on a, so after we were together for one month, I went and brought her a big basket and she, you know, stuff at work, flowers and everything. And I caught her text in her ex-boyfriend.

And so she started lying about it. And I didn't even care. We argued all night. And I finally was like, dude, whatever. Like, you know what I mean? And so the next day, now I wasn't like one of them, ah, sneaky guys, like trying to find out what my girl's doing. But the next day, now I'm like, all right, well, hold up.

So I see on her Facebook, she had added him back. So I messaged her at work. I'm like, hey, why did you add that dude back? She's like, I didn't add him back. A friend did. I'm like, whatever. I'm like, well, I'll see you when you get off. And so I went to pick her up at work.

And she's in the back, she's in the front seat of a cop car. I'm thinking that Burger King got robbed. And I'm like, what's going on? And she's like, not looking at me. And a cop comes home. He's like, hey, did you assault your wife? I'm like, no. And then put hands on my wife at all.

Does she say I assaulted her? I'm like, this. He's like, yeah, dude. Like, she says that you assaulted her. I'm like, and she's like 95 pounds. I'm like 220. I'm like, if I assaulted her, like,

where's the marks? I didn't put hands on her. So they're like, well, she said, she told him I put a knife to her throat. I mean, this is like a pretty, so like, we have to arrest you.

And I'm like, dude, there's no way. This is bullshit. Take the knife, put it in a bag. Check it for fingerprints. Check it for DNA. You know what I mean? I'll take a polygraph.

I'm like, whatever you want to do. So I go to jail. Next day, I bond out. No contact, you know. And then a few days later, she's hitting me up. I'm so, I'm like, I'm fucking, what did you do?

You fucking lied on me. She's like, I'm sorry. So her sisters are calling me and they're like, look, she already told us that she lied. She just decided she didn't want to be married and she didn't want to look like the bad guy because, you know, you're always so good. You know, I mean, I'm not the greatest, but, you know, like, she just didn't want to, I'm a good dad to Christopher. And so she didn't want to look bad. So she decided, you know, I'll make this big lie up. Apparently there was one of her managers told her the same thing too.

This little dude was like, you're going to have to do. something so anyways long story short she goes and tells them look i lied so they drop the charges but they're not happy prosecutors don't ever like dropping charges whether you're guilty innocent or not it's just like it's something in their DNA where it's like no we don't drop charges you know we'll take a plea bargain they don't mind convicting and this is one of my problems with the justice system you know it's like they there's many prosecutors that don't mind convicting somebody for something they didn't do it's just it's fucking weird that doesn't get it like when they find out you didn't do it instead of just saying, look, you know what, this really didn't happen right,

we're going to drop it. It's like, they can't let it go. It's like, it's like a score. Like, I can't have a negative score here. I've got, I don't know exactly what it is, but it's, it's, it's something that really should change. You know, once they find out you didn't do something, you know, then they should be like, yeah, I'm going to drop it, you know, this guy didn't do it. But anyways, so it was a big deal, you know, and I kind of made fun of the prosecutor and danced outside and, you know, ha ha ha, and,

uh, you know, kind of egged it on. And so this continued to happen. We got back together. Why? I don't know. I just fucking like,

you know, I'm, I'm not the greatest guy in the world. I've made a mistake. You've got a sickness here. You've like, you made a big lie. But you did come and say you came forward and told it.

And they even, even the arresting officer was like, look, I don't believe it. Like she said I choked her till she passed out, bashed her face on the dash. Just not a mark on her to the, To this day, I actually have all the police reports and, like, the picture of her, were they write if there's any marks and all that?

It's nothing. It's even all the paperwork. I mean, there's nothing. Like, they couldn't brutally do this and happen. And so anyways, but whatever. So I got back with her and this went on and on a couple times. She did this again and then went and said she lied. And so now they're like, oh, she's just a abused woman and she's covering for her abuser. You know, I mean, and that probably happens quite a few times, but not in this case. So she, she, she, she, uh, she. So we were broken up at one point. I had a business called Magic City merchandise. So look, I'll be honest. When I got out of prison, I acquired some money. I took some money from this guy that was selling drugs. I didn't know who he was. And that's a whole other story, but I went in there and took it, you know, from him.

And so I took that money and started my business. And that's all I had known at the time, you know, like, And so I started this business, Magic City merchandise. I bought a bunch of like DG sunglasses and watch sets and whatnot, was doing parking lot sales, you know, entrepreneur. And so I thought I was going to lose my business. My daughter, I had full custody of my daughter. So she's living with me.

And I'm thinking, like, I'm going to lose, you know, everything right now. I'm like, I'm broke. All my money's going to these lawyer fees and bonds. And I'm like, so I started thinking, you know, I got to get some financial. room and my mind went back to crime. And so I was like, you know what? I'm just going to break into a warehouse and just steal something, you know. And so me and my buddy, he'd never got in trouble for any of this before.

So he was never thrown in it because I'm not a rat, you know. So I'll leave his name out of it, you know, even though, you know, statute of limitations or whatever. But anyways, so I told him, hey, bro, like, you'd hit a lick. You know what I mean? And he's like, yeah, yeah, for sure, homie. Like, I'm down, you know, let's do it. And so we'd always been scoping out warehouses and stuff all the time since we were younger. We broke in a lot of warehouses and semi-trucks.

It's like, I'll be honest with you, for a criminal, it's like a grab bag. And it was a lot of, like, excitement kind of, you know, because it's like, you know, you go break in these semi-trucks, man, and it's like, they're full of engines and ties. you know, and it's like, man, there's all this stuff. Who knows what it is, you know? But you know, there's going to be something, you know, of value in there. And so we picked out this Conway freight. It's, you know, it's called like XPO now.

So we picked out the Conway freight. It was a, you know, it was like just, you know, it sounded bad, but it was like begging to be broke into. I mean, it was like, you know, no lights. It was in an industrial area, you know, with, you know, no other businesses really. easy access points. And so, you know, we stole a FedEx van and hotwired it.

And took it there, parked it next to the fence, cut a hole in the fence. Because I didn't know what we were going to get. And there was really no, there was no agreement. Like, for instance, like, I'll tell you something about, as a side note, a lot of people understand about conspiracies, you know, so with a conspiracy, you've got to have an agreement between two or more individuals to commit an overt act. And that's actually the legal definition of a conspiracy. And a lot of people don't know.

And this is something that's kind of important. A lot of people don't really fully understand what a conspiracy is and how easy you can get charged and convicted for a conspiracy. So conspiracy is, you know, an agreement between two or more individuals to commit an overt act. So me and you, as an example, if me and you say, we're talking drunk at the bar. And, you know, I'm like, hey, bro, I'm not. to go down to Mexico and get some coat. And when I bring it back, we can sell it and make a bunch of money.

And now you're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's cool, man. That's cool. So that's the agreement. Even if you're drunk and you don't really, you weren't really like, look, I'm really serious like trying to turn my life into being a drug dealer. We just made an agreement. Now, it's not a conspiracy under the law yet, right?

It's just words at this point. So what happens is some physical action, has to be taken to initiate this conspiracy, right? It's almost like taking two chemicals, you know. You've got to actually pour one of them in to have the reaction. And so that's the overt act part of it. And so let's just take, for instance,

you forget all about it. We were drunk, drinking, right? The next morning, I go rent a car, and I get on the highway, and I get pulled over. And the cop says, hey, and I have some weed or whatever reason, whatever the, And I say, look, man, me and Ian were going to sell some drugs. Like I was going to Mexico to get some Coke.

And, you know, I was coming back and we were going to sell it. Now, that's a conspiracy. Doesn't matter that I didn't have the money to buy the cocaine. Doesn't matter that I never articulated specifically that I'm going to get, you know, X amount of cocaine from this guy named, you know, Juan, down here. You know what I mean? Basically, the fact of the matter is two or more people came to an agreement. and then at least one of those people put that agreement into physical action.

So now you're sitting at home, it might be six months later. Fed's bust in your door. You know what I mean? Cuff you up. Throw you around. You're charged and you're going, what? Now, whatever the amount was or that I claimed, I could say it was going to be 20 keys, right? That's the weight now in your conspiracy.

There never has to have been a 20 kilos of cocaine. ever bought, sold, transacted, or even exist. That doesn't matter. The fact of the matter is you conspired with me to get 20 kilos of cocaine from Mexico to bring them back here and to sell it. And that's it. By the definition, like, and you can go in there all you want

and be like, I didn't have anything do with it. You know, if they have some kind of evidence, it might just be me up there testifying on you now. And like, what the fuck this asshole? You went and got a car got pulled over. and now it's you and that's how it works and it's fucked up and you know you've been in prison you've heard the story so you know what i'm talking about in anybody that's fend to federal prison and actually did some talking about real you know really met people and talk to them they know the damn

well truth too and uh that's fucked up man now i was charged in the last time with something called the pinkerton theory of liability are you aware of that one at all no so the pinkerton theory of liability in a conspiracy comes from common law crime, like way back. And it basically says, you're liable for any of the actions that your co-conspirators took, whether you knew about it or not, right? Because once me and you make an agreement to commit a crime, so let's say I go shoot somebody down there and steal their drugs, you're now liable. And the reason you're liable is because it should be reasonably foreseeable to you that further criminal conduct could arise through this agreement that we had to begin the drug trade. So it's fucked up. So what happens is they get somebody with

a conspiracy somehow and they get them in front of a jury. Well, these jury, they're just regular people, right? And there's no one that's going to explain to them that this is not really cool. So they're just like, huh, what, huh, what? I don't know. We don't know what. We don't know what's going on. And I'll be honest with you, man. Between me and you, I fucking hate juries. I do not do jury. trial. I would always take a judge trial if it was possible. Only because, man, juries, I'll be honest, in my experience, dude, I mean, they'll convict the ham sandwich, just like a grand jury will indict one. You know, I mean, they're just like, I don't know, we don't really know what's going on here. It sounds like maybe he could have done it. You know, we didn't see any video,

we didn't see any fingerprints, we didn't see any evidence, you know, other than this guy getting up here. Well, they don't know this guy's getting 10 years off his sentence for telling on you. They don't know that this guy's been pressured by his lawyer and his, his fiance and their kids and all of his friends and his roommate and his celly to say whatever he has to do to save his own skin. The jury doesn't get to see all that. They don't know that. They don't see the behind the scenes. They see the guy, Lonnie Vandersluke, you know, that the friend of mine that went

and told. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle restrictions apply. He's trying to get time off. They don't see that. They're not like, hey, he's trying to get out and see his kids. So he's just willing to say anything.

And so. So you pull the tractor trailer up to the building? No, so we broke into all the tractor trailers. And then I found some guns, man. I just happened to find these guns, you know. And I took them. lined them all up on i took all the uh the dollies from this because i actually went into the trailers and then i finally went into the place and uh lined them up on the dollies and strapped them

down and just rolled all the dollies out and threw them into the truck and the van so once i realized you know what a what a you know what i'd done i knew that you know like one of my um bolt cutters broke and I had someone drive by and throw me another pair and so I threw those in a dumpster next door but now I went back to that dumpster and pulled the bolt cutters out to take them with me so I made sure I actually went where they had broke

and got some of the little bolts you know and then kicked the rest of them because I just didn't want anything there you know no fingerprints no nothing and so um and then I took the FedEx van to FedEx Wait, why was there just guns sitting in these trailers? I don't know. So, I mean, apparently it was some warehouse shipping them.

I mean, I found out later, you know, in the discovery. So it was a company that like sells guns or something, some sporting good company. And they were decided that they had too many guns or whatever. So they were shipping them from one warehouse to store in another warehouse. What kind of guns are in the crate? Pistols, rifles, shotguns, pretty much. Thorough, like a, of, like, all of that. So you thought you hit the mother load?

Yes and no. Yeah. I mean, I'll be honest. I mean, straight, I didn't want to take the guns. I wanted TVs. I wanted some, like, you know, some pallets of some kind of electronics that I could sell. And if I got caught would be basically a slap on the wrist. I'd bond out of jail.

I'd get a lawyer. I'd, I'd, you know, make some agreement for probation, you know, some deferred. time served something so I didn't really want the guns but I you know I was desperate and financially I was like so when I saw them I was like you know what yeah I could I could I could do this and then something I learned in the drug program the ARDAP in the federal prison system was super optimism so my super optimism kicked in and I said oh you're smart enough to do this man you know what I mean you take them all to someone who will just take them out of the country you know every one of them you could get away with this you get the money no one will ever know you've got no fingerprints here

you've got no dna no you know i've got no like i'm good and that's and i that's you know that's you know that's you know that's you know that's you know that's you know i'm gonna do this that's where the decision was made you know with me personally in my mind you know what i mean no one even knew about the guns i was the only one in the world that even knew you know what i mean and so that's when i went and said all right i'm going to take these guns and so i uh i uh You know, I took him, man. I took him and threw him in the van. And my buddy, he had already hotwired the van.

You know, I told me, hey, we need a van. I called him up. Good kid, man. I said, hey, bro. You know, he's, you know, my co-defendant. You know, we went down together. We went to trial together. And my other buddy is the one that never was involved.

But so we brought the van back. We went unloaded him. and brought the van back in a, like a place that was making apartments, brand new apartment complex. It wasn't open yet. Because I was thinking, like, there's got to be a tracker in here, right? I was like, dude, these things, they got to be like some kind of GPS tracker. And these, you know, there's not just going to be sitting here.

The trailer wasn't even locked, by the way. It didn't even have a padlock on it. It had a little piece of metal, like with two pieces of lead on the other sides. Apparently, it was never supposed to be there. It was supposed to have been shipped already. the guy got it there too late. So they said, I just locked the thing up and let's go home.

So it's just this semi-trailer just sitting outside of a warehouse fucking with guns in it. No padlock. I mean, you know. So, uh, we went and dropped them all off.

We took the FedEx van back to FedEx. Because like, there's no point, you know, put it back and kind of made it look all nice, made sure everything was cool. And that, to this day,

that was never, they never could figure out like, what vehicle was used, you know, I mean, there's no point telling them. I mean, and so then we went and ripped through all of them boxes, man, looking for GPS for hours. I'm like, I'm like, there has to be something here, but there wasn't. So we rented a suburban, loaded them up in there, and, you know, took them to L.A. And sold him to a guy that a friend of mine knew down there.

and so that guy um you know he's supposed to be this you know solid guy so to speak you know I mean you know he works for a cartel and he's got all this stuff going on you know and moving shit around the country I didn't know the guy I just met him that he actually flew up from uh L.A. to Salt Lake uh to see him see if he wanted to buy him because I had another possibility I could have took him to New Mexico someone else I know and so I was like I could take them either or so this guy just got first dibs basically he flew up I showed him look this is what it is you know and he says yeah I want them I'll take them all and I was like well it's 50 grand and he was like cool can you bring him to L.A and I was like that's 3,500 more so he gives me

the 35 and then I I didn't drive on my co-defendant had him drive him he drove him down there and we got down there and the guy pulls up to the hotel I get in Fontana and uh I call him up in LA. He's like, where are you at? I'm like, I'm in Fontana. He's like, yeah, you can't get a little closer. That's like the first town, you know, getting into L.A. I'm like, look, man, I'm here, bro. Like, you know, I'm trying to go any further than I have to. And so he shows up and he's got a truck and he says, look, bro, I don't

got all the money yet. I'm like, oh man, what do you mean? He's like, look, I got 30 now. He's like, and I got the rest coming. I tell him, all right, man. I'm like, well, let's get these things moved into your truck. So I get them all moved in there and he gives me the 30 and another car pulls up and he's got like five more. And then he's got all these fucking bags of weed. You know, and it's still wet, you know, but it's good weed. It's not.

And so anyways, I'm like, dude, I don't want that weed. Anyways, it gets into the woods and the weeds here, so to speak. But long story short, the guy still owed me $10,000. And I call my buddy back in Montana who knows this guy. He got a lot of weed from him. That's all he ever got. You always got weed from the guy. I tried to push other crap on him.

He's like, no, I just want the weed. We have never been into any of the other stuff. So he says, I said, hey, can I trust this guy? He's like, yeah, dude, fuck yeah, you can trust him. So the dude left. So my co-defendant, I had a pickup truck. I just said him and his girlfriend took that. I gave him, you know, his money, and they went their ways, and I stayed down there.

And so I was already going to buy a car. I didn't have any money. You know, I had been driving a little Volkswagen Fox around. you know because um you know when i was broke up with my wife so let her take the car and uh so i didn't have any money or anything really so i've been driving his Volkswagen Fox so I'm like shit so I'm looking up you know I found a BMW convertible in Pasadena you know I was like great deal like eight grand you know in Montana it looks like a 30 40,000 dollar ride you know down in LA a little three series BMW convertible is you know what you know high school kid drives and so

I'm actually on the way to Pasadena in a cab, and I get the call. And it's my buddy in Montana. And he's like, hey, bro, this dude fucking doesn't want him anymore. I'm like, what do you mean? He said, well, he wants to pick and choose. Well, there was a lot of 22s in there, like 1911 models, but there were 22s.

And he says, he doesn't want all those. He just wanted, you know, all the real good shit. And I said, well, bro, he doesn't get a pick and choose. I told him in the beginning, it's all or nothing, bro. And I told him, like, you got to take all these and they get them out. Like, you know, they're always going to be forever linked. To this day, every single one of those is linked. If the cops run a VIN number on one of them guns, it's going to come up the Conway freight theft from Billings, you know. Um, so, you know, it was really not cool. Uh, this dude

didn't want to do the deal, he says now. Well, I'm not giving in the money back already got. So we get them on three way. And so we're arguing. And I'm telling them, look, bro, this ain't Walmart. Like, you know what I mean? You're supposed to be a good dude. We made this deal in good faith you said that you would pay me the rest of the money and now you know what I mean you and he's like well I just want something like no bro I ain't doing it like that he's like I just can't there's nothing like I can I'm like I don't bro I'm just saying it's funny because this whole time by the way the cab driver he can hear something's going on and he's like like what the fuck are they talking about you know but so finally I just tell him like tell my buddy I act like my buddy I'm

like you owe me when I get back he doesn't know that he's in on all of it you know he's 50-50 with everything basically so I'm like he's like uh I'm like, when I get back, you owe me. So if it's Fontana, buy the BMW. I fucking drive, I put it on a, on a dolly of U-Haul and drive it back to Montana. And then that's it. And then, you know, I'm now financially a little more stable.

So months and months go by. And, uh, and I kind of feel the heat, you know, like, I'm like, yeah, something ain't right, you know. This is a pretty big deal up there, you know, for the, the law enforcement, you know, it's over and over again. It's on the newspaper and it's in the news. You know, police have no leads. You know, this happened, you know, all this time ago and they're still looking for

him. Anybody has any information. There's rewards. And nobody really knew, but my co-defendant, his girlfriend, knew. So he had left her. So she got mad that he left her. So she started trying to get him back. Meanwhile, he's got a new girlfriend.

So they get to fighting with each other on the phone all the time. and it's like, I'll shoot you, I'll shoot you, fuck you, bitch, he's mine. And it's just, you know what I mean? Like, this was between the girls and him, if that makes sense. So they get into all this, you know, this arguments, basically. And so, and I had, my sister had known a little bit what went on, and they had went down there and subpoenaed her. And anyways, and she'd apparently said something to this girl while the, well, the guy flew up to Salt Lake, my sister took her and her kids out and apparently said something to her like,

you know, hey, they're using you to cover the fact that they've got a bunch of guns. And then, I don't know, there's all different kind of conflicting things in that, you know, and came out, you know, that maybe she saw a gun, you know, but she never saw any of these firearms, by the way. Never. And at trial, she said that she saw them. And I pressed her. And then she said, I saw them. I'm like, well, what brands were they? What were they? Like, you know, she's going to say a brand that wasn't in there. Then I'm going to be like, and she just, she just lied.

You know, she just said, oh, they were in a tote. I'm like, a tote? What kind of tote? She's like, like, like a plastic tote. I was like, like, the little square tote. And you saw them, she's like, it was clear. I'm like, it was a clear tote. Did anybody, that's why I said the juries.

Anybody could tell, like, this girl is not telling the truth. And that should be like, you know what? How much do we believe of all her testimony? And she was like, yeah. And I was like, well, what kind of guns? She's like, well, they were boxes. That's like, they were boxes. So you didn't see any guns.

You saw gun boxes? They were gun boxes. And then I'm like, so what were the, did they have like names on them? Well, no. Like, well, how do you know what was in them? They were just cardboard boxes. And by the way, what happens is this whole time at a trial like this, you're fighting the prosecutor.

Objection, objection, because they're like, you know, they don't want to see their case unravel or see just come out. So they're just, and that way, the jury's over like, huh, what? She's saying this. He's asking this. This guy's yelling objection. The judge is banging it. You know, it's a fucking charade, man.

It's a, it's a fucking, it's a whole charade of, anyways. And then the juries are like, we don't really know what happened, but he probably wouldn't be here if he's not guilty. So let's just go ahead and find him guilty. So, yeah, I end up back in Montana. I see, where were we at? I got off track for a minute.

I'm sorry. So the girlfriend was getting mad. So the girlfriends were fighting. Yeah. So his girlfriend. Trying to tie it back in. So his girlfriend, his ex-girlfriend and his new girlfriend are fighting. And they're arguing back and forth and talking about shooting each other.

You know, I mean, this is them. Has nothing to do with us. I don't even know this. I actually found this mostly out, like at trial and in the discovery. So his girlfriend and ex-girlfriend decide to meet up at some point at a storage unit. And there was some gunplay. so they started shooting at each other. And his ex-girlfriend got shot in the eye by his new girlfriend.

And it took out, you know, like, she lived. Thank God, she lived. And took out like a whole, you know, piece of her. But she lived. Her kids were in the car. So I guess, like, her, and I wasn't there, so I don't really, but her kids were in the car and her husband. She's fighting over, over, you know, I mean, my co-defendant,

but the whole time, you know, she's with her husband, you know, anyways, it's just, it's a mess, but, and so apparently, like, they had a gun and they threatened his girlfriend, and so my co-defendant's new girlfriend is sitting on his lap in the passenger seat of this truck, and they pull up to the windows together, and there's some kind of a gun battle. Like, they start shooting each other. and, you know, this girl ends up in the hospital, of course.

And then after that, more started coming out. Her mom came up and was like, yeah, this, you know, these guys stole these guns, some guy named Ben. And then, you know, the local cops are like, I could only be one guy, you know, we know who. And so, and they probably, I don't know for sure, but they were probably already, like, I have a couple friends when I'm the bondsman,

you know, former bondsmen and some people that I know, and they were already like, bro, like I remember this bondsman after it happened it was in the paper and the first time I seen him was like hey dude did you see that shit in the papers and let's all them guns I'm like oh yeah I heard about that he's like bro I ain't gonna lie

he's like first thing I thought of was like that's gotta be Ben I said damn bro he's like no I know you didn't do I'm like yeah why would I do that he's like it was just my first thought so if it was his first thought it was probably a lot of people's first thoughts you know I mean Billings isn't you know that big it's also not that small

but so they were probably already like we think it's him let's tie it to him somehow. Even if it wasn't, I might have got convicted. But anyways, so, yeah. And so after that happened, she, so she got her discovery, his new girlfriend got her discovery. And in the discovery, it had my name.

So she released her discovery to my co-defendant sister. My co-defendant sister calls me up. She's like, hey, Ben, I got this discovery. I'm like, look, I give you a couple hundred bucks. And she's like, your name's in it. I'm like, go to Kinkos and get it all copied. So she goes and makes a full copy of this. Meanwhile, the next day, the feds find out that she released all of her discovery documents

to my co-defendant's sister. So they get a warrant and they go raid her house to get this discovery back. Like, it's just the paperwork. Like, they're just, right? Anyways. And so they get it back. I already had a copy the whole thing. They didn't know that.

And just to show you as a side note, so what they did is they actually found a newspaper. She had newspapers, one of the ones from the gun theft. They took that newspaper. They set it down, right? They took a card I had sent her years before from prison with my picture in it. They set it on the newspaper. They pulled my picture out, right, and staged this whole looking thing.

and they took a photocopy of that, right? And that ends up in my discovery later. Like, what? It's like, you know what I mean? It's kind of like what they did with Trump, you know what I mean? Like where they found out they were pulling out, you know, like confidential documents

and putting them in different spots and trying to, it was all that stuff, you know, with Mara Lago and it came out like, they were staging it a little bit, you know, like. And so it's kind of like, dude. But anyways. So they, I knew, you know, look, man, the word's out.

Like, they're going to get me. Like, they're coming for me. You know, like, it's only a matter of time. And so what ended up happening is I was going, I was flying down with my friends to Vegas the next day. And I was dropping my daughter off at her grandma's house. And all of a sudden, a couple, you know, I thought it was getting robbed. Like a suburban pulled up, a truck pulled up.

They blocked me in. And they jumped out. didn't pull any guns on me. But at first, I was like, who is this? I go to throw it in reverse, and I see someone like, what the fuck? And they're like, hey, hey, man, it was, you know, U.S. Marshals and Task Force.

They didn't pull any guns or anything. My daughter was already in the house. And they were like, hey, man, we got a warrant for you, dude. I said, all right, man, well, let me say goodbye to my wife. You know, I gave my wallet. And she's like, what's going on? I was like, it's over. Like, I'm thinking, you know, it's over with, right?

Like, they got me. Like, the feds are here. I said, write me, I guess, man. have a good life and I get in the car the the the the they cuffed me and I get in the the the suburban they take me to the jail but I hear him on the phone and they're like yeah we're bringing me chesney in and they're like oh the bond on that's 50,000 and I was like there's a bond and they were like yeah I was like this isn't federal and there's no bond in feds like that I said and they're like no were you expecting it to be I say well why are you guys arresting me and they're like oh well

you know we're whatever you know like we're arresting you know we're just helping out. And so I get to the jail. I'm like, I got a bond. And it's some bullshit, bogus-ass misdemeanor that I already beat a partner family member for my wife when she lied. I've already beat this, but they decided to turn it into a felony, right? Now, months and months later, they knew it was bogus, but at least it would get me in jail because the feds, they got to go to a grand jury to get an indictment on you. They're building a case. They're building a case. And they're like, get him in jail before we get a grand jury to indict him. Well, fuck, I had a lot of fucking money at the time, man.

It's from other activities, took that money that I got and I flipped it pretty heavily. And so I was like, bonding out. You know, I'm like, let's go. A $50,000 bond in Montana is a 10%. I'm like, five grand. I call this bondsman. I'm like, hey, dude. And he's like, yeah, bro, I'll come get you right now.

No signature, no nothing from anybody. No collateral because I, you know, I had a good name. I've never so and and I said hey I can go to Vegas I'm leaving for Vegas in the morning like I'm cool right the bond just says appear for court there's no stipulations on travel yet that happens you know when you go to court and the jail guard's like yeah this says appear and then the bondsman's like look bro you go to Vegas I don't care so I fly to Vegas weekend in Vegas have a good time fly back get home it's about midnight boom boom boom boom the door's getting beat off the Inges, you know, I'm here people beating out there.

I'm like, what the fuck is going on? Right? So my wife's sister, the twin, I had actually helped her move into an apartment across street, so they could be closer to that. I call her up. She's like, I don't know, man, there's a truck and there's a car. I'm like, is there any cop car? She's like, no.

So I'm like, fuck, someone's trying to rob me, right? That's my thinking is like someone's trying to rob me, like, you know, the words out that I got money. And so I said, we'll call the cops and tell them. And I can't have a gun. I'm a felon, so I don't never fuck with guns. I'm taking them that time. So I'm like, dude, call the cops and tell them, you know, someone's robbing your neighbor.

And so she calls me back. She's like, they told me that they were serving a warrant and go back to bed. So I'm like, what the fuck? A warrant? I just bonded out a few days ago. Like, it's just a weekend. Like, how can they have a warrant? So I go into the bathroom.

My wife covers me with all the blankets and pillows, right? I'm in the bathtub. And I call the cops because this thing's stopping. They're beating on the windows. I mean, it's. And, uh, I call the cops. And I'm like, yeah, this is Ben McChesney. And my old neighbors told me there's cops over there at my old apartment.

And so, and she's like, let me transfer you. She transferred me as one of these guys outside. Dude, they're probably pissed. I shouldn't, so they don't really know, you know what I mean? Hopefully I don't even hear this, but I'm like that motherfucker the whole time. So, and meanwhile, I got my co-defendant and my other buddy, Chris, are coming to my house. You know, up there. I'm like, hurry up, get up here.

I'd already called them, actually said, I'm getting robbed. Hurry up. Come over here. Like, bring something like, come. And so I tell him like, hey, dude, I don't live there anymore. Now I can hear that they're like intensifying the beating. I think he's trying to hear it through the phone. They're like, dude, if he was in that apartment, they would have heard it through the phone.

They're not realizing I'm in the bathtub with just piles of, and I'm a pillow guy, so I have a ton of pillows. When you go to prison, there's certain comforts. I don't play around with my sheets, my mattresses, my pillows. You know what I mean? Like, I have nice. I don't, you know, my bedding is like, I don't, anyway. I don't play with that. So I got a lot of pillows. And it's like PTSD, you know. So I tell them,

look, dude, I don't live there anymore. They're like, well, we got a warrant. I'm like, look, dude, I already bonded out on that. And they're like, no, we have a new warrant. I'm like, this is, how can that be? So I'm like, well, look, I'm going back to bed, dude. You know, good night. So they leave. And there's only one car of them driving up and down around. So when they're like out of view, I have my wife and steps on run across the street to her sisters. Then I have my code offending. He backs up to the, it was an apartment building. I was in a lower unit. He backs up. So the next time they take a trip, my buddy Chris is down there. So we're all coordinating pretty good. I jump out the window. I jump in his trunk and he pulls off. We're actually at the stoplight.

And I'm in the trunk. And I hear LJ saying, they're fucking right next to me, bro. And they know what he looks like. So he's like, fuck, bro. I'm like, it's all good, bro. So he turns right. They turn left. and I get away and I call my lawyer, this lady Lisa Bazant, really cool lawyer. And I call her up and I'm like, look, dude, the next day I called her. She's like, look, just lay low till court. Don't let him arrest you. So the day of court, her and my investigators got Kent Ewalt, really good dude. He used to be a cop for years.

And now he's an investigator. And they're like, look, dude, they're trying to arrest you before you even get into court. So I'm like, fuck, I don't want to miss court. So I like have to sneak into the courtroom into the court. house and some they told me some people told me like hey you know like go this way this way this is the way that the cops go over this walkway and come back to anyway so i get into court room and uh they're like there's undercovers in there now there's people they're like damn he made it in the court and so the judge i've got the bondsman there and he's already telling me like look bro

i'm gonna go to bat for you like you know i'm like dude i can't afford another 50,000 dollar bond like i just fucking lost you know five grand on the bond the other day and then i went to vanguard lost a bunch of money. I'm like, dude. And so everybody's there. And the judge calls my case up. You know, Majesdia and I get up. And she's like, yeah.

And then my lawyer's like, Your Honor, we found out he has another warrant he was informed about. So he wanted to see if we can get that dealt with the day. And Judge's like, yeah, yeah, that's cool. The prosecutor jumps up. Well, Your Honor, Your Honor, wait. And my lawyer's like, well, we can just run the bond concurrent since he's already bonded out.

And they're like, Your Honor, he went to Las Vegas. And he was just like contentious in here. And the judge is like, did you go to? to Vegas? I said, yeah, yeah, but I came back. My, the bondsman's here and he told me I could go. So did the jail. And then he's like telling the prosecutor, what's the problem? He's here. And she's like, well, your honor, he left. And he's like, and the judge was like, well, there's nothing that says he couldn't leave. And the bondsman's there. He's like, your honor, he stands up. And he's telling him like, look, you know, if you do give him a bond, I'm ready to post it for him,

you know. And he's a good guy. I feel bad because he was just going to post it for me, too. like a $50,000 bond without nothing down. And in the end, he kind of ended up taking it in the shorts. So the judge gives me a concurrent bond. He's like, look, you're here, come to court, no more going to Vegas. I'm like, all right, cool. So they give me the bond. And I get the bonds combined.

And I start to kind of plan. Like, I'm thinking like, man, this, you know, I'm no one now. So my sister messages me, I put something. on Facebook, I said, a true friend will tell you, you know, when your face is dirty or something. She said, your face is dirty, brother, call me. So I'm like, oh, fuck. And she's, so the fed said, went down there and told her like, look, we're going to subpoena you to a grand jury, you know, and she's, you know, telling them, I'm not doing shit. I'm not going to a grand jury.

And so I kind of knew. I said, you know what, dude? Like, it's a matter of time, you know? And I started thinking of myself, you know, like, so by the way, I'm in the middle of the this big lawsuit because I went to prison six years, the federal judge, you know, and he was a good federal judge. I didn't think that the first time, the second time now. And so he had basically said, look at your attorney's fault. If he would have done what he should have done, then you would have never went to prison. And so I'm suing my lawyer, you know, and he didn't have insurance,

apparently. So I actually had lawyers from around the country calling me and they're like, this is what we do. We, like, we specialize in suing other lawyers. It's like a special thing. It's like, you know, the internal affairs of the police department, you know, they, and so I, uh, I was like, nah, I'm going to do it myself and give you 35, 40% of this, you know, I can, because, you know, I've got certain things that have to be proven, you know, the causation and whatnot. And that was already pretty much proven by the judge. So I'm suing him. He runs the federal court tries to say that he's protected. I'm like file and say, no, he's not.

They tell him you're not. So now we're in the middle of this. Pretty much it's all about the amount, you know, at this point it's going to be. So at some point, I'm going to get paid, you know, something. So I'm like, yeah, so now I did this. And I'm like, all right, look, I can stay here and, you know, probably be a millionaire and get, you know, who knows how much in prison. I'm thinking a lot, you know, or I can just fucking leave the country.

screw that lawsuit and, you know, make it on my own. And I'm pretty confident. So it was a pretty easy decision. I was like, dude, I'm out of here. And so I decided I'm going to go to Mexico. Now, I had friends down there from my first federal prison sentence. And so, you know, I called my buddy and I'm like, hey, bro, like, I'm coming down. Well, he's in jail for shooting someone at a strip club down there in Mexico.

So he's like, I'm in jail right now, but don't worry. My brothers are, you know, here. And my mom and dad, you know, you can come stay with them. They all grew up in Chicago. He was a Latin king. And so I'm like, look, I got to come. So I sell everything. I'm like, fuck it.

I sell all my cars. I start consolidating money. And I had a lot of, you know, stuff I had been accumulating. And so total I got together, probably around $60,000, between $50,000 and $60,000. And I'm trading my buddy all his, because we always would like argue who got the $100 bills. you know, in 50s and 20s, you know, you don't want stacks of 20s. And so I traded him all, you know, his, I'm like, you got to take, you got to give me your hundreds, bro.

And so he trades me. So I have a pretty good amount. Well, me and my wife aren't together. So I call her sister, I'm really good friends with Amanda. And I'm like, hey, Amanda, I'm like, look, I need to see you. And she's like, come on over, Ben. She's just a wonderful person, just, you know, I like a soccer mom. She's a barista.

anyway, she's a good person. And I'd call her up and I come over to go over to her house and I said, look, I'm out. I'm going to Mexico. I just want to say goodbye, you know, to Megan and my stepson, you know, before I leave because, you know, I'm realistic. You know, this is it. It's like, you know, there's no Facebook, no calling nobody. It's like a whole new life.

Are you going to run, dude? You've got to cut everything. And so I'm like, so my wife comes over and my stepson and I tell her, I'm like, I'm like, look, I'm going on the run. And she's like, what? No, I want to go with you. I was kind of like, I was like, ah, yeah, that's not a good idea, you know. And now she's like, I love you.

And, you know, she's like, she's sitting on my lap, like hugging me and telling me she loves me. And, you know, she doesn't want to, you know, and so her sister, you know, God bless her. But she's like, I think you should go with him. She's like, you know, you've got everyone in your head all the time about shit. And he's a good man and he's taking care of you and Christopher, he's day's dad. And she's like, you should just go with him. them and you know and so I'm like well all right you know so I decide she can go with me so I plan this out you know pretty quick and so for about three or four days now we're back together

you know and I'm getting all this money up I get rid of my phones and I'm like look we're going to take the bus so we get on the Greyhound bus me her and my stepson and we split leave everything behind and we just go. So I didn't want to go straight to the border. Now I'm not wanted yet, you know, and so I'm on the bond for these bogus charges. The second charge, by the way, when they were knocking on the door and I got away,

it was some old marijuana charge that I wasn't even guilty of that they just brought up. It was just some BS to throw at the wall. So now we're down. We go on a roundabout way and I end up having a guy drive me half the way. back down to the border trying to short it

and so we get to the border I get a hotel as a matter of fact my buddy from that was bringing in the Shannon had all the anyway my buddy that was bringing in in the camp like I said I'm really good friends with pretty much quite a few people from every prison that I've done time with and I'm in contact with them still

like we're all from all over so it's his he's in prison still and he tells his son hey you need to help him out like whatever he needs you know legally nothing illegal but you know help him out and so um you know i went down there and he didn't really know i was on the run and uh you know he let me stay in a house for like four or five days then one day he comes like lou i don't know what's going on but i got to do with you or something to do with me but so i'm like got to go so we split back on the bus and then came back around anyway he brought me down there and uh we go to the get to the border

well i didn't want to cross all together because i'm like i didn't want to cross all together because I'm like the feds are probably looking for, a matter of fact, they were. It was all over the news. Like my buddy's mom in Chicago was like, I mean, and, excuse me, Seattle was like, you're on the news over here. They're looking for you and your wife and kid,

traveling together. So I'm like, dude, so we get to the border. So, you know, I'm going to the run. This is all the money I have. If something happens to it, like my life is, you know, much, much, much harder. So I take all the money and I got my wallet packed full and I got some condoms

and I roll up all these hounds. And I roll up all these hounds. and I stick them, you know, tight down in the condoms to a roll on top of each. And I make a couple of these things, you know. And it's kind of funny because I tell my wife at the hotel, I'm like, now listen, I'm like, I'm going to put these in my boxers and stash it. I'm like, and you got to put this in your underwear, you know. Like if something happens, if we get arrested or the cartel tries to kidnap, you're going

to have to, you know, you're going to have to hide it, you know, where it ain't going to be found. and she's like, it was funny, she's like, why is mine bigger than yours? And I'm like, well, look where mine's got to go. Shit. So anyways, and then I had money, you know, everywhere. It's, you know, it's hard sometimes. It doesn't seem like that much money, you know, 50, 60 grand. But even in hundreds, it still adds up, you know, when you're trying to hide it on your person.

And so I have some here and there, little bundles and different. So we crossed the border. So I leave her on the U.S. side. I says, listen, I'm going to cross first. We crossed in Laredo at the foot. bridge. I said, you wait for me and I'll call you and then you and Christopher come across. So I walk across the bridge, uh, go through the x-ray machine. They're like, yeah, yeah, cool. Come on in. So then I call her. I'm like, it's all good, you know, come across. And I'm watching her

come across, you know, and here she is. She's 20 years old at the time now. You know, she got this little sundress on. She's pushing a stroller with a little kid, you know, and, and I'm like, oh, God, I'm watching like, they're not going to let her in Mexico. They're going to be like, what lady, whoa, whoa. and so they do well i had a big huge knife you know like a like a ramble knife it was a sog but and i told her you bring this in they'll probably let you bring it in they won't let me and so they gave her a hard time about the knife and she's telling them for protection my dad give it to me and so they let her in so she gets in there so we get on the the bus and we head down to uh oh we got we we we had down you know to central mexico to wantahua where we're going to go at one point

the bus gets pulled over at night and there's these big lights lit up you know and it's we're passing a state border and it's a checkpoint and they get everybody off the bus and I thought it was busted. They get on and they're looking at me, you know, the only white face that doesn't belong and the guy's telling everyone they're getting off and outside

the windows are all lit up and you know there's military looking vehicles. I'm like ah fuck how the fuck do they get me down here and he's looking right at me he's coming down he's like you got to get off so I'm like fuck all right so I get off and I had some weed on me too. And I just always And that's highly illegal in Mexico, you know, at the time.

I think it still is. But so I stash it, you know, and I'm like, fuck, I stashed a knife. We get off. They searched through all of our luggage and everybody's luggage and then they let us go. So we get down to Juanajato in the first city is a place called Erdiengato and Moro Leon. And we get down there and I move in with my buddy. You know, his brother's there. He picks me up, takes me their house and meets their mom.

She's a wonderful lady. Their dad, they lived in Chicago too, so their dad's in Chicago. He calls me up to say, hey, you know, just respect my house. You can live there, you know, I'm like, thank you. And so after about a week, you know, that story's Mexico. God, I mean, that could take up a whole other four, five, or six or ten hours. But my life is just always, I don't know, anyways. So it's just always been so not chaotic, but just so alive, you know,

so much like stuff I never really just lived a calm life. I never really now I am and it's great but I never really lived you know and so and so I end up moving into an apartment building I find an apartment me and her move in and I'm like I got this money's got to last it's not just to be blown like we're on vacation so I'm kind of in a hurry like I've got to invest it so there's a big empty lot across the street there's buildings and it's just like a big you know big empty lot with buildings on all three sides And it looks nice where I'm at. So I'm like, I'm going to build a restaurant.

So I build this restaurant down there. And it's called The Hideout. I'm on the run. You know, I like to play around a little, you know. And so it's called the hideout in Spanish. It's Al Escondite. And my actual logo I used, so we have an indoor football team in Billings, Montana. It's called the Billings Outlaws.

And they have a, it's like a masked bandit, you know, with like a cowboy hat. They won the national championship a few years back. But anyway, so I actually used the Billings Outlaws logo as my logo. And it was kind of hidden around a corner, you know? And it was like, and so I start building this restaurant. And my wife, after like three months, she's like, she's kind of tired of it down there, you know. She could go with me, but she's always just like, I'll just stay at home with Christopher. And she just hangs out.

We'd go out a lot. But so we start kind of getting. and in little arguments, you know, and it was her 21st birthday. And, you know, she's a twin. And so they have been planning their 21st birthday since, you know, I don't know, they're three or something. You know, who knows? But, you know, it's like, we're going to be 21.

And so, you know, I spent, I mean, I spent a lot of money actually coordinating a phone call between them. So I had to have somebody up in Billings, buy several cell phones so they could call her on one cell phone. And then we could call them on the other cell phone and they could just, you know, turn them upside down to each other. That way, because I know, like, whatever she calls her sister, the fed at this point the feds have been calling family members knocking on all kind of people's

doors just the other day i found out another person my buddy's mom was over there having dinner she's like you know the feds came here when you went on the run i'm like really in her husband's like they're older and like yep they were here i'm like they came to you guys and then i hear stories you know all the time from people that are like you know and they were getting phone call my little brother they were his clients and other states were getting phone calls from the feds like so they were getting into like phone records and they were really looking trying to find me. And so anyways, I did this phone call for her. So she decided she wanted to come back. And I told her, look, let's plan it out. You know what I mean? Let's, let's just plan out. If you want to go back,

that's fine, but let's get you back. So she had a warrant for a witness warrant. Like, they actually put like a warrant out for her to try to testify on me. And it's like a felony warrant. Like, they'll arrest you anywhere for it. So I didn't actually know this at the time, but I knew they were going to like catch her at the border or something so we end up getting in a fight one day and she leave she like fuck it and she leaves i leave actually and then i came back she was already gone she got on the bus went back to the border and i could have went i called her sister and she's like dude she called me and like told me she's coming back but i told her to go back to you she said you guys got a fight she said she's going to come back to where you're at but she actually went the wrong direction

into a place where like the cartel was burning buses at that time and i mean it was so anyway she goes back to the border and uh i split I'm like, I can't live here anymore. I got to move. So I moved in a matter of hours. And I moved into an apartment building that was full of, um, uh, prostitutes like in a shady side of town.

But that's like there was a apartment there and it was cool. And so anyways, I'm trying not to get, um, so I'm trying to get the weeds off too much because there's so many different angles. And so I, um, you know, I ended up starting a,

I started a stainless steel business down there and I made staying the steel equipment for restaurants and homes and stuff. And then I started a security business called Protection One Sugoridad. And I did alarm systems and camera systems on the run. You know, I was down there for a few years. And I had a girlfriend and I have a child down there now. And so one day, one of my ex-employees found me online somewhere. I had a fake name.

I made a fake. I printed out a fake Canadian ID online, put my picture on it. And I glued it to a like a car. from a hotel and I made it into an ID and that's always what I used and my name is Jesse Cruz because I thought it sounded white but it might blend into databases and so anytime I had to deal with the police or the military checkpoints arguments with the transit police down there happened frequently you got to argue with them I was trying to get the money from you you're like so anytime that happened I use that but and then um yeah so one of my employees set me up called me up

My ex-employees said, hey, bro, you want to sell that motto, you know, little modos. And I had one that I was selling two of them. But I said, yeah. And then I was waiting for him. And I saw this truck coming flying towards me with the lights on, you know, like a federality truck. But it was just one. And there was a, it was way down the street. And I was like, I don't know what the fuck's going on?

Because usually they're going like way deeper than that. And then I saw like a, there was a jeep behind him. And so I was like, dude, I don't know what's going on. This dude hasn't showed up. I'm out of here. So I started trying to take off. off and that's when I realized they're trying to get me. So I was trying to get to a one-way street, you know, to drive up it, you know,

full of cars coming to the way, they can't get me. And they just smashed it to me. They smashed into me, jumped out. It's like a kidnapping. Now, in Mexico, when you get arrested, something like that, it's not like up here where there's going to be a scene for 20, 30 minutes or an hour, you know. It's like, get him, throw him in, cuff him up, and get the hell out of here. So they threw me in, it cuffed me, tossed me in the back,

a truck. These, you know, federalities around me like, no, move it's no, no, it's okay. Relax. You know, and they throw my bike in after me a whole motor cycle. And then we take off. And so we get to the jail. And it's all the drunks from town. These guys know me because I hang out with them sometimes. And they're like, what, what do? Are you drinking? And they're like, you could see, like, you could like break out of this jail. This is just like the little drunk tank. I'm like, oh, I'm getting right out of here tonight. And then they came and got me and brought me to another place far away, not too far away, like an hour and a half away. I'm trying to like convince these cops to let me go, these federalities,

they're immigration agents and some federalities. I'm telling them like, I'll give them 50 grand. I don't have 50 grand to give them. But we'll figure that out later. Like let's just, they're not going for it. I'm actually thinking to myself like, where in the fuck is all this corruption? Everyone's saying you can buy them off. And I'm telling them,

Cinque de Mille. Chaz, Chaz, Chaz, Effectivo, and the cash, you know, and he's just looking at me. One of them was looking at me in their rear view, like, And I mean, I'm actually literally, actually, Ian, I was actually considering like reaching up and like just hitting the steering wheel. You know, I mean, I'm thinking I'm getting life in prison. They're going to lock me up forever. Like, you know, have some PTSD, you know. So I'm like, this is going to be forever.

Like I might as well just wreck the car and try to get out. But anyway, so I get to the place and I try to escape all night. It's like a room and there's a bunch of Hondurans that were in there that got caught. And so it's like an immigration. So I cut this padlock off the deadbolt. I cut this deadbolt off the door all night, and these Hondurans are watching me. And then I get in the office,

and there's like a federal, uh, a federality, like a guard outfit. I mean, like a cop outfit. I put it on and cover myself with a blanket. I mean,

and then they come and open the door in the morning, and I try to run out, and they grab me and catch me. And, uh, they put us in a van and they drive me to Mexico City to a big prison. I mean, it's got like doors or like four, stories tall opens up you know we're like this little van jiving i'm like i'm never going to get out of here

and so i go there uh you know that place was cool man i it was all right and i tried to escape there i got the bars off the window and i had everything ready to go and uh they basically so i found out that they told the united states like because they had to extradite me so um anyways um so here's look it's kind of funny this is actually a really really this is this is an interesting part that I think you're going to enjoy. So I had been planning, like, all this for several years, like, what's going to happen when I get arrested? Now, this is January 2013.

So I've been all into, like, the NSA and, you know, the Utah Data Center and some of their programs that they've developed. You know, I watch all that online. I'm like, you know, seeing, you know, all these different programs that they have, you know, for, you know, listening to people. And I've been into that pretty. heavy for a while. So when I get arrested, I start telling these guys in the prison inmates. I'm like, look, dude, this is how they can track your phone. This is how they track this. This is how they track this. This is how

you make a broadband jammer. Like you can jam any wireless signal. And so I have all this, you know, this criminal like knowledge base, you know, and I'm explaining to them all this, you know. And so the human rights come to that prison, you know, these human rights, they go to prisons internationally all the time. So the human rights guys are there. And I'm telling, and these other inmates are telling I'm like, you got to talk to weddell. So I'm telling them, I'm like, look, dude, they're lying to you. I didn't steal anything up there. I'm like, here's the deal. I'm part of a network of people that want to get the U.S. government to stop spying on people. I'm like, I had to fucking go and hide out down here because they were going to find out, like they knew who I was. I'm like,

if you send me back, like, it's all bad. Like, they're going to try to like use like the sodium pentothal on me like and so this is my you know i'm trying to get out of prison you know i'm trying i'm like dude they're they're lying to you this is all bullshit so and i'm telling them and the shit that i'm telling them i'm and at the time you know they had just got caught spying on like the president of brazil uh the president of germany that angler merkle you know what mean so things have been coming in the media slowly by surely now by the way edward snowden you remember him right so he didn't come out so i think it was like may or june of the same year of 2013. So this is all timelineable. I'm just saying you can see that the timeline is.

So I'm actually, but a lot of what he came out with was actually already out there if you knew where to look. You know, if you were already looking at all the, you know, the internet and seeing like, hey, look, man, they've got all this, you know, all these programs, you know, Operation Stellar Wind and just, you know, all this stuff was in there from like Wired Magazine had already had a lot of stuff and you can go from there and you can just start jumping around. And then you can start use in your own mind and realize like, okay, well, if they have these programs and it's only natural that they would have these other programs, you know what I mean? And so you like, I mean, why would you not have this if you've already got the technology? And so you can start kind of building on that,

which is what I had been doing and like, all right, so they're already doing this. They've got cataloging programs. You know, they've got, you know, databases. And they have something, I don't know if you're familiar with it, it's called the Utah Data Center. And it's actually uses enough power to power 250,000 homes a day. This thing's huge. I mean, and it's there. It's right there. And it's actually basically a big thumb drive. So there's like five supercomputers. And this is, some of this is old information at least from like 2013, you know, in Fort Mead and all these. And so they get all these international communications so they can check them. You know, you say, you know, the word bomb and president in the same sentence. You know, there's some computer

somewhere that's like, hey, flag this. But what happened is they're getting so much digital technology and traffic is moving so much that they couldn't store it. So they're getting so much stuff in that they can't look at it before they have to delete it. So that's why they got, you know, approval from Congress and ended up building the Utah Data Center. And it's like a big thumb drive. It can hold a Yoda bite of data, which they didn't even have that numbered back then. So they say it can hold enough digital data for the next hundred years, like every conversation, every bit of digital data. So anyways, this is all knowledgeable. You can look it up online. I mean, it's not like some hidden secrets yet. You know, they had a big article, like

a set in Wired magazine and about these things and explain it. So I started, you know, telling these human rights, like, look, this is what it is, bro. Like, you can't send me back. I'm just trying to throw whatever monkey wrenches I can and slow this up. And they were like, we're not going to send you back. I'm like, you guys should be debriefing me right now. Like, you know, I'm like this. And they're like, we're not sending you back.

And as a matter of fact, when they actually told me, we're not sending you back, right? It was literally about 10 minutes later. They came in and they were like, United States, they call you. out there by your state. Estado Cudence. They call me, Estado Ceresi, United States. Like, yeah, I'm like, you're leaving. Well, my poor Selle was from Ecuador, and I had convinced him, like, if they take me back, I'm going to have to kill myself to protect my, you know, the secrets and all of the people that are, you know, secretly in my little group. And so I'm leaving. He's like, whoa, I don't want you to die. He's, like, worked up. I'm like, don't worry,

bro. And then the cops are acting like, I'm getting out. And they're like, hey, like, dude, you're good. Like, don't trip. You're not like, and so I go get in this van and they don't cuff me or nothing. They're like, you're going to a meeting, they told me. And I'm like, a meeting. Where am I going to? I'm thinking, this guy, this human right guy did not have time to go get anything done yet. I'm like, but maybe, maybe he just said, get him in a van and we're pulling.

So I don't know. And then we got to the airport in Mexico City. And I see a plane and a bunch of Mexico Federal Alley trucks lined up and we get closer and closer to it. And it's just off somewhere. I'm like, what the fuck? And I was thinking, man, they must be doing like a lot, you know, like what's going on here? and then I realized, oh, it's for me.

And I'm thinking, it must be, you know, they're taking a bunch of people. I didn't think it was all for me. I was like, fuck. And it turned out like, damn, it was a big, so they made a big deal of it, you know. So, and then I saw the U.S. Marshal that I knew from Billings. And we and him had a lot of contentious little arguments starting there.

Well, we were in the van, and there was some hot mess confederality ladies in there. And so I'm in the back of the van that they put, actually it was a suburban. and he's up in the passenger seat and we're waiting for all the documents for me to get on this plane. And I'm just having a good old time

with these ladies. I'm talking to him in Spanish and he's getting pissed. He's telling me speak English, like you're white. I mean, anyway, I don't even. It was a very contentious and I'm telling him like he's a racist

and Spanish and they're laughing and giggling and I'm telling him what I told him in English. And then so he's just getting pissed and we're, so they cuffed me up and we get on the plane. You know, there was some incident, like I said, on the plane. with the Marshall and whatnot.

It was a pretty big kind of deal at the time. Probably no point in getting into all that. And then so I land back into, you know, into L.A. And they eventually get me back to Montana. And, you know, and I find out too, while I was in Mexico, that there's this kidnapping charge. And I'm like, that actually blew me. When I first found out, I was at this guy's desk,

and he's telling me this immigration agent, and he's like, well, they say kidnapping. I'm like, no clue. I'm like kidnapping. I'm like, holy fuck, they really are just lying about shit, you know? And they've got a, it's called a red notice, which is an international arrest warrant. And it's through Interpol out of a Leon France. And so anytime that one of the member countries of Interpol, it's like 163 countries or something like that, I don't know.

But anytime they want to like, I have like a felony type arrest warrant for somebody that's fled internationally, then they have to get, they have to do what's called a red notice. And that's, and so they had a red notice on me. and I see that. And it's basically they have to have, you know, the phone number of like a law enforcement that will answer 24-7. I mean, it's like a lot of, you know, stuff to go through so they can arrest you internationally

because one of the member countries wants you. And so, but he tells me kidnapping. And I'm like kidnapping. I never kidnapped in my life. I've actually never had any sexual, no violent crimes. I mean, I'm like, whoa. So I didn't really know actually what that was about. I was like, what is this even about?

They didn't tell me. So I get back to the U.S. and I find out, oh, so what happened is my ex-wife, they arrested her when she got to the border, took her son from her. You know how they do it. Everyone knows. Everyone who's ever been to prison has heard the stories about they use, you know, it's just a tactic. They use the kids with a woman and use them to try to influence them to give them some kind of information.

And that's what happened. So they took her son. She's never been away from her son before. And she's a good mom to her kids. But, yeah. And so she told him, well, he kidnapped me. And then she just started running with it. So they flew her back to Montana.

They took her. Now, unbeknownst to me, Ian, they had never indicted me for the guns. Apparently, I didn't find this out until later. They didn't have enough evidence. And the grand jury didn't give them an indictment. So I kind of went on the run for nothing. They were like, dude, just not enough here. So what they did, this is actually dirty.

What they did is they had a new, grand jury sitting so they brought her in there oh he kidnapped me and you know she's just a little pretty you know i mean it's kind of you know like i said these are power like chess moves but you know when the person that gets to move the chess pieces you know is is you know the government they can pretty much you know you know i mean a horse doesn't always have to go in the same direction you know the horse can be like the king or the queen you know what i mean uh pawn can do what it wants so unfortunately the rules of the game, you know, there's no more honor, so to speak. So they brought it to a grand jury.

I have the grand jury, like, transcript. Like, I actually have all the transcripts. I have files, like, you know. I have one, Megan's Lies, Volume 1, Volume 2, Volume 3. And, I mean, it sits about this high of file folders. I mean, like, I had to break it into volumes. And these are different times that she went and made statements to the police. that were clearly false.

And you can go through them and look, what? Like, none of this even adds up. It's insane that they would let. It was almost like a 12-year-old just going in there and lying. And then they're like, oh, yeah, none of it even jives.

It's all conflicting. So, yeah, they went to a grand jury and her statement changed multiple times. First, she said I kidnapped her in Texas. Well, that would mean that they would have to indict me out of the Texas, eastern district of Texas, or Western District. You see what I'm saying?

Wherever that crime occurred. Well, that's not going to work because those prosecutors aren't in the pocket, so to speak. So then it turned into, well, actually, I kidnapped her in Billings at Knife Point, told her I'd kill her, forced her on the bus all the way through the country, forced her across the border into Mexico, and held her hostage for three months before she escaped. So, I mean, had that happen, when you're talking what? A Lifetime Originals movie, right? I mean, think about it.

This ex-con forcibly kidnapped. you know, a 20-year-old and her special needs son at knife point and forces them across the country into Mexico, holds them hostage for months until she finally escapes and she said she ferreted away money. I mean, it was the whole thing was just like, if that was real, you know, it'd be a Lifetime Originals movie. That's a movie plot right there.

So, you know, instead, it was more like that movie Girl Gone. You know what I mean? Is it Gone Girl? I think Gone Girl. Yeah, so it was like that movie Gone Girl, basically. you know and so they never did nothing to her bro they never did nothing they actually indicted me for kidnapping her which was a minimum mandatory 20 years in federal prison because of the minor um so i was my own attorney so i told the prosecutor i said look i'll take a life sentence if she can pass a polygraph i said right

now i'll sign whatever you want i'll i'll you know i'm my own lawyer i'll wave everything that it needs to be weighed. We can, you know, cross all the T's and dot the eyes. And they told me, and so I had a standby attorney. So he came to the jail. He's like, look, this is what they said. They said, you take a polygraph. And if you pass it, they'll dismiss the charges.

And they'll investigate her for lying to a grand jury. And I actually have that document too. He actually typed it all up in a memo first and brought it to me. So I was like, yeah, let's go. He said, well, we have some time. to think about it. But once again, it's chess, you know. I said, listen to me, Daniel. And it was just early in the morning. Like, he had just got this. So it was still pretty early in the morning. I said, listen, Daniel, I want you to go out to your car and I want you to call them and tell them that we

accept immediately. He's like, well, we've got time. I'm like, no, I want them to know that I didn't think about it for an instant. I don't want them to be like, is you going to do it? Is he going to do it? Change their mind or nothing. I said, you go let them know that I said, right now, I'm ready today. they actually had a date for when I would meet with an FBI polygraph examiner. It was like, you know, on May 10th or something. So we went and that's what he did. You know, he went and called him. And the next day, they dismissed the kidnapping,

said new evidence has come to light. You know, it's been just, and then the paper, you know, they fall in line. It's just, you know, and they make it sound like I still did the kidnapping. But for some reason, some shady unknown reason that they couldn't go through with the, you know, it's kind of very. interesting the way they do it, you know, um, so, you know, the paper in my town, they, they, they just back up, you know, the government. And, uh, I'm always online talking about it to this day.

Um, and everybody, most people know it. But anyways, uh, they didn't like say, hey, you guys, like, let's look into this. Like, that's pretty heavy right there. Like, this girl, you know, lied on this guy. I mean, you know, and so, uh, you know, I'll be honest with you. So, But, you know, look, that, that whole situation there really affects me more than, more than you might imagine. You know, it's like PTSD. I don't date, you know, I have cameras in all of my vehicles. I would never imagine anybody getting into a vehicle that I have without having my, my camera up and running. I've got, you know, the dash cam with the one that faces in the cab, you know.

I don't like to date women. I mean, anybody. I love women only, but I don't date, you know, because it's scary. You know, anybody can say anything about you. And I've had it happen to me, you know, and been arrested multiple times. And so, you know, something like the kidnapping, like, and, you know, being in prison, you see some people sometimes, and they're like, hey. And, you know, I try to help a lot of people that have got out of prison.

And I really try to help them stay out of prison, you know. In prison, I did it. I mentored a lot of people. Like I said, my last four years when I really started, and I started trying to show them. And, you know, I developed, like I said, a prison correspondence, a recidivism reduction correspondence course.

And I'd look forward, you know, to someday, you know, seeing that go out. So how much time did you end up getting? I got the maximum of the sentence was only 10 years. The maximum they could give me. The day of trial, so they kept trying to get my, co-defendant to, uh, they tried to get my co-defendant, you know, to tell on me. Uh, they offered to drop

all the charges against him, which is pretty heavy. I mean, that's, you know, his lawyer is working on. I'm like, you're getting 30 years. There's nothing you can do. What is, you know, what is wrong with you? You better just, you know, you better tell now. And, uh, he's a good kid. He was like, no, like, I don't, like, I've got nothing to say. So when we went to trial, you know, I was my own lawyer, um, his lawyer really, his lawyer had had in. prepared at all. And he pretty much told the judge that, like, you know, Your Honor, Mr. McChesney's been preparing for this. So I was a lead defendant, which means that I get to go first with questioning. And the judge was like, you know, well, you're not a lawyer,

so we're going to let, you know, this other lawyer go first. And I'm like, no, Your Honor. And he did, he got up. He goes, Your Honor, I've been instructed by my client to let Mr. McChesney, you know, dictate, you know, take the lead. And so, and he told his lawyer, like, look, whatever Ben says, I love my co-defendant, bro. He's a good kid. I love him to death. he's a he's a really really really good person and um he just you know uh you know he's solid kid man he's you know he had a chance to you know tell on me and probably lie they would have wanted him to lie to that it was a conspiracy uh you know which there was like i said there was no agreement so there was no nothing of knowledge of it but and that would have you know probably

got me you know way more time and uh he didn't you know he did you know the solid thing and just said you know what I'm going so we went to trial together they wouldn't let us around each other and then after we got convicted so I had a federal judge from another state flying to do my trial because I kept I was filing I was my own lawyer so I was filing massive I'm I was filing and they were just getting pissed it was kind of like you know they were like ah this guy he's filing this he's filing and they have to respond and then the judge has to you know make a ruling and so I was really like you know trying to jam it up and so they kind of bounced me around federal judges and so I had a federal judge from Washington fly in to do my trial.

So after we got convicted, you know, it was like a few months, three months until sentencing, you know how that goes. And then they sentenced us in Missoula, Montana, which is like four hours from Billings, because that's what the judge wanted to fly into. I think he knew the other judge. So it was like, well, golf and I don't know what exactly, but, you know what I mean? For some reason. And so they drove us up there.

And then we got the maximum sentence. I could possibly get was 10 years. Thept of firearms in interstate commerce, possession of stolen firearms and something else. So the most was the 10-year sentence. You know, there's no drugs involved, no conspiracies involved. And so they sentenced us each to 10 years. And then they let us in the cell together, you know,

and it was like a reunion. I hugged him, you know. And I mean, I told him, I said, we won, bro. oh, we won. Like, you know, like we won, you know, getting 10 years in the feds or under, no matter what you did is actually a win. And when you've been, when you've experienced

and met so many people in federal prison, you know, you've met a lot. And you've probably seen some numbers, you know, some years to add up. You know, in the higher security you go, the more larger numbers you see a lot of. And, you know, there's kids in there, man, that weren't really doing shit.

Like nothing. And they're doing, 20, 30, 40-year sentences, and you're going, what? You know, my buddy Gary Settle, I mean, he just passed away. Bless his heart, man. A really, really, really, really good dude. Literally, by far the best dude I ever met in federal prison. And me and Gary were, you know, pretty tight, you know, for the few years that I was in

USP Beaumont. I ran a poker table there. And, you know, the dynamic of running a poker table in a USP is pretty interesting. I mean, you've got to have, you know, just being real, you've got to have, you know, people have to respect you, first off, because, you know, there's a lot of money involved. If they're going to owe you money, then you're, you're not going to pay you if you're a chump. And you've got, you know, serenios and, and, you know, dirty white boys, you know, and, you know, airing resistance movements. And you've got all these different gangs, tangos, and, you know, you've got everything, Paisas, you've got everybody playing at the same table, you know, you know. know, in a prison that's, you know, a maximum security prison where, you know, there's no fighting,

you know, if something pops off, it's, you know, it's knives. And so, you know, it's pretty interesting. I loved it. I enjoyed it. I took good care of my players. I ran my table good. I dealt every hand. I had chips. And it was every single day all day. I actually started out on a garbage can because there's only so many tables, you know, in there. And it's like there's a black table. There's a white table. The whites used our table for the TV. And so there was a few poker tables. And I wanted to start my own poker table. So I took a whole bunch of big toilet paper boxes and I sewed them together with ripped up sheets. So I had like a big table top. And then I had a blanket that went over it and I sewed some little stretchy on it. And when we'd come out,

I'd go grab a garbage can and I had it counterweighted with books. So it would set right on the garbage can and hold down. And we would all sit up around the garbage can poker table and play poker and uh this really cool dude from um named boston bobby and he was the shot caller for the boston car and uh he was a good dude so there was i had a friend of mine named cheddar uh he was from billings montana actually uh i met him in there and when i got in there he was really great because he's like when i got to the unit that i got to with him he was like bro we got a boston cell over here you know you can have it it's a montana cell bro that's yours we waxed the floor it was an empty sell, you know. In the USPs, the cells are a little more regulated by the inmates.

I mean, you know, the guard will tell you, hey, you're assigned to this cell. Dude, that don't mean shit. They know it too. So they'll be like, you're going to sell 14 and you get in when you first get in. You don't even go to that cell, really. You're going to meet everybody. Come say hi to you and you're going to find out what cell works for you. You're going to go tell the cop, hey, I'm moving in with so-and-so. And they're just like, yeah, okay. I mean, once in a while, you might get one that tries to buck it, but that's it. It can't. you know, whoever will come over and tell me, hey, hey, dude, he ain't moving in there. That dude's already moving or this dude's been going to move in there when he moved.

And, you know, like, no, he's going in here for right now. And then when this dude leaves, he'll move here. Like, we got a handle. Don't you worry about it. You just put it in there. And it's like, that's what they do. So I got to this unit. And actually, another white guy got me moved there.

He's a dirty white boy. He had me moved in with him. And I don't live with gang members. So I'm like, no, because, you know, you can be sitting on the toilet taking a shit, dude. And somebody trying to kill a dirty white boy comes in and gets me. You know, his. shitter sign says dirty white boy on it. I'm like, I'm not a dirty white boy.

I mean, yeah, they're cool. Some dudes are all right, you know, but I'm not going to be involved in their shit. So I don't live with gang members. How much time did you end up serving? 10. Well, about 11 with the state. Oh, so you didn't get any good time or anything? I got some good time.

I got like the 15%. So on the 10-year sentence I did about eight and a half. I couldn't get any halfway house because I had a state sentence for bail jumping for them bogus charges after that. which my lawyer, I had let this lawyer deal with it, which is always a no-no for me. And that's why he told me, oh, the judge is going to make it concurrent.

You're not going to get no more time. So I pled guilty to the bail jumping. I bail-jumped those other charges, remember, that I wasn't really even guilty of. So like the bail jumping was a process crime. And then I get into the judge says five years after your Fed sentence consecutive. And I'm like, what the fuck?

And I told the lawyer, you told me that you and the judge talked about it in chambers. And he's like, oh, I'm like, you got to make me a statement, bro. You guys hustled me, you know? Like, that's, you lied to me or the judge lied to you, but either way. And he's like, I'll make you a statement. And then he never did, of course.

So, you know, that's, that's, you know, it's like you can't, you know, your own lawyers lie to you, bro. You know, and that's unfortunately what we live in is where your own lawyers are going to. And so, but yeah, one day Boston Bobby came over because Cheddar left. There was no more, no more Boston guys there. And there was a Boston table. And he came over. He's like, hey, Montana, what's up?

I said, what's up, Bobby? He says, you still playing poker on that garbage can? I said, yeah. He says, no, that's your table now. So that was really cool. He was like, you can use that table till some Boston guys come in this unit. And so I was really comfortable, but, you know, Gary, I tell you something. You know, I don't like, I don't really tell other people's stories because I, you know what I mean?

A lot of people just have, you know, stories of like other people and what they did. But those guys can tell their own stories, but Gary's passed away, so he can't. But Gary robbed a lot of banks, got like 150. years in prison. He did like 30 years in federal prison. At one time he tried to escape from USP Atlanta with Woody Harrelson's dad. Him and Woody Harrelson's dad made a ladder and tried to escape. You know, you guys got 150 years in federal prison. I can't blame him for escaping, you know, trying to. I mean, fuck. And he got caught. So, but Gary was very, very, very well respected throughout the entire federal prison system. And, you know, in USP Beaumont, he was like me.

He kind of ran by himself. So me and him really kind of hung out a lot together in the same unit and we you know kind of stood on her own two feet just you know we're white you know but anyways but gary was like the mayor to see this guy work you i mean there should be a movie i mean his guy saved so many lives and so much shit from happening that i mean other every other race and gangs would come to him for advice you know sometimes there's some matters you know there's a lot of politics going on in there and you know this guy stole from this guy or this guy beat this guy up or something and sometimes it's it's a little gray area and you've got to figure out because just black and white.

And so everything's got to come down to like, you know, in politics, like who was wrong and who was right. Whoever was wrong has got to go, whether it's on a stretcher, whether it's checking in, depending on the severity of what it is, them and their people figure that out. You know, and so a lot of times when there was complex issues, you know, they'd call Gary, hey, man, Gary. And he'd be like, come on, bro, we got to go out the yard. And we'd go out there and I'd stand ways.

Because I had Gary's back, like whatever happened. And he didn't have to worry about anything. But I'd stand a little ways away. and he'd over there, and these guys would be just telling them, you know, like I said, it might be some black gangs, something, they'd be like, well, Gary, we was wanting to what do you think, this dude did this? And Gary was like, the mayor, he knew, so he didn't run them. He wasn't the head of any of them.

They're going to make their own decisions. But sometimes those decisions can be hard to flesh out. And someone that's done so much time. So Gary would listen to both sides, and then he would tell him, well, you know, that dude's in the wrong, you know, whatever, whoever it was. And then, you know, whatever happened after that would happen. But a lot of people saw. Gary's advice and he was a really calm reasonable you know they did a lot of articles about him he was

in this atavist magazine a while back angel of mercy so he ended up developing cancer and he got over 50 people out of prison at a federal prison on compassionate release the whole time while being denied on his own and just getting sicker and sicker and just wanting to go home to his mom been locked up since he was young. And unfortunately, he passed away on Thanksgiving. I mean, he passed away on Halloween. So another guy I was in federal prison with Eminem, who's from Texas, he called me up and let me know.

So anyways, that's unfortunate. So. What year did you get out of prison? I got out of prison in, well, because I, so I left, I left state prison. I mean, I left federal prison. They flew me back to the state of Montana, and I had to go to there.

I thought I'd get paroled right away because I was been good. I didn't get no write-ups in federal prison. I'd been good. I changed my life. I've done a lot of things. And so I was like, I'm going to get parole. So I got there.

And when I did finally see the parole board, they were like, no, dude, you're not getting out. And I'm like, devastated. And I was like, this sucks. So, you know, I ended up the next year, I actually started a website called fake kidnapping. com about how my ex-wife had said that I kidnapped her. And because that was actually,

that affected me quite a bit. even though I beat that bogus charge, you know, that still followed me quite a bit. I've been in several fights over it. You know, dudes are like, well, I've fucking seen you. You fucking kidnapped your wife and kid. I'm like, dude, I need kidnappers. She fucking lied. Yeah, right.

And then boom, boom, boom, it's on. So, you know, I mean, I've had to physically, my life has been put in danger. I mean, realistically, especially. And I've had to, you know, sometimes that happens. And then so, you know, it brought up at my parole hearing. I went to parole. And they're like, Your Honor, he was accused. He was to kidnapped his wife and child into Mexico.

Well, fuck, dude. Like, I'm like, this is ridiculous. And, you know, no parole. So, you know, conceivably I might have done some time for that, you know. Anyway, it's a pretty big deal, really, you know. The fact that they never charged her, like, you, even that lady, Sherry Papini, they had a, she faked her kidnapping in California, no victim. She just faked it.

She didn't say, you know, Ian did this to me, you know, and she went to prison for that. And the difference is in my case, my ex-wife never faced anything. So she actually, like, lied and created a victim, you know, victimized me, you know, by saying that. And when I got out of prison, by the way, now let me tell you something here. This is kind of important. Anyways, the whole time I was in prison, on and off, my ex-wife wrote me. she emailed me and she wrote me i love you you're best man i've ever been with um blah you know on and on you know sent me pictures of the kids you know um and then it would stop when she'd get a boyfriend

and when she'd break up with him all sudden here we'd be talking again and i just wrote it but one thing i did do is i um i printed all the emails so i have a i have a fat folder you know of all those So, you know, for 10 years, she's writing me and telling me that I'm this great guy, you know, sending me birthday cards and cards. And, you know, then I get out of prison. The day I got out, she posted on her Facebook. This is the man that kidnapped me. This is the man. And then people are commenting like, he should be killed, locked up, key thrown away.

What a piece of shit. I mean, it's very interesting, you know. And I didn't really say anything. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to lay back and wait, you know. Her friend, her sister came and saw me the day I got out and took a picture with me and put it on Facebook. And so she's like, my own family, it's because they know she's full of shit.

I mean, they all knew. None of them believe her. Like, they're like, dude, stop it. We grew up with you. You're our sibling. Like, we know when you're telling the truth and when you're not. So anyways, yeah, I got out of prison. I finally, after I started the website, fake kidnapping.

com, I got out of prison. I started writing the governor in Montana constantly. I mean, like every two weeks, letters, letters. My kids are out there. They're doing fentanyl. Like, I need to save them. Please let me out. I've done all the time I can do.

I'm trying to help other inmates. I'm not doing anything criminal anymore. And then finally, I went to the parole board. They let me out. I got out of prison. I was out for 10 days. My daughter ended up, she was clean and sober too, and she ended up overdosing off fentanyl and passed away.

that was 10 days after I got out. So I was in Florida. So I flew back to Billings and I, you know, I put her to rest. And there was really no one else to do it. So I had a really nice ceremony at a really cool place. I officiated it. I was like, you know what? I'm just going to do it myself.

And so I did that. And then the parole board, the head of the parole board told me, hey, if you want to stay in Montana, you can. So I switched my paper, federal and state back to Montana. my state PO was like look dude nobody wants you here you should probably stay in florida he's like i've got more phone calls about you than i've ever got about anybody ever before he's like you are not welcome here nobody wants you here you're going to have a lot of enemies enemies and law enforcement here and he's like i would strongly suggest that you just stay in florida and i told him dude i'm not doing nothing bro like i'll go talk to him you know i went went to the sheriff department

went and saw the sheriff um he came out he looked at me he said oh they let you out I said, yeah, they did, man. I said, I just want to stop by and let you know, man, I'm not on nothing anymore. Like, you know, I have a story of history here. And he was cool. He was great guys. So come into my office, went in there for about an hour.

And he was like, look, we're going to go down to the jail sometime, you know, and we can talk to these kids, you know, I'd like to do that. I told him, yeah, and I still stay in contact with him. And same thing with some of the people and the probation and whatnot. The same thing, I'd like to go do that. So we're going to set that up at some point soon. And then, you know, I just pretty much did what I could, you know, to just let everyone know, like, hey, I'm not, I'm not on nothing anymore, man. I'm almost 50, you know, I'm tired of this.

You know, thank God I never got a life sentence or, you know, and I'm able to still have some life. So, you know, I have a lot of, I think there's a lot of issues with recidivism that could be fixed very easily. but unfortunately, you know, prisons are a big business. You know, the more people in prison, the more overcrowded, the more money, the more that money slides off into some of these private companies. I mean, there's, goes on and on, and that's something, you know, I mean, a crowded prison. If a prison isn't crowded, you're not going to get a lot of money appropriated

to build a bigger one or a new one. So these prisons and jails have to stay. And it's a business model. Let's be real. I mean, any good business model needs repeat customers, you know, you need people to continue to come back to your podcast or, you know, to your, to your videos, right? Restaurant needs you, they don't want you to come eat one time and never show up again. What business model would that be, you know?

Businesses rely on, you know, building a customer base. And I feel like the prison industry, and it is an industry because, you know, you've got all these, you know, these corporations, lobby in Congress, you know, they want tougher prison sentences and, you know, but, um, it's big business man big things are happening you know there's big budgets out there budget's got to be used uh you know a lot of budgets in the federal prison system man uh you know a lot of people see these things like oh they have this program and this program and this program and this program you've been there it's fucking bullshit you know half of those programs don't exist they're on paper on a wall that says there's a welding program and you send an email and they're like we don't have an instructor

It's like, well, you got a $100,000 robotic, you know, welder over here, you know, in this room that you guys installed and no program. And I saw that constantly in all the prisons I was at, you know, computers that would come in and get set up for a computer class that never materialized. And then the computers disappear one day and new IT guys come in, you know, with a new budget and put in new computers. And, you know, there's a lot of things, you know, that make it difficult. What do you do now? I flip cars. I just buy and sell.

Staying out of crime. Yeah. Staying out of crime, bro. I don't, I don't, you know what I mean? I buy and sell, you know, I bought and sold some mobile homes, you know, some cars, different things. You know, and I'll be honest with you. Like, to me, the secret, if there was a secret, which it never should be, about staying out of prison. For me is I looked at myself every day in the mirror, and I had the,

what like I was going to do to stay out this time. And I promised myself and I'd look at myself and I'd say, if you fucking don't do it, then you better punch yourself in the face and I would just drill it into my mind, you know, these things. And it's like,

don't get into debt. Don't start buying stuff that I can't afford. You know what I mean? Like don't, you know, get financially, you know, stressed out. Don't date.

Like, like, don't date. I can't tell you like, Half of the people I've met that went back to prison was some kind of issue with a relationship that went bad. They got out and they either were doing drugs or not doing drugs, fighting with their ladies. She calls their PO or she calls the police or her new boyfriend. I mean, it's just a constant.

And in my mind, it's like, I need to focus on me. I need to focus on building a stable foundation. And it's really hard for me to focus on that. And a lot of people, before you're stable, you know, if you've got to worry about focusing on somebody, else as well. You're now a caretaker and you have emotions to deal with. And I also, you know, financially have all these plans. And so it's like most of the friends that I have that have girlfriends, man, like, there's no free time. Like, they get off work. They have to go. And so it's like you don't have time. You know, I've met a lot of guys that got out of prison and even friends. And I'm

like, oh, man, they get in these relationships. And then some of them are very content. relationships, man. And then, and it's like, bro, you're like playing with fire because you're on probation. So if you get an argument with your girl and something happens, you're going to jail. And it's like, focus on, you know, so I don't, I don't commit any crimes. Another thing is I don't hang around anybody who is committing crimes or who is criminally minded. I see people every day of my life that I've known in the past all around town. And they're like, man, hey, man, I've been trying to find you, bro. I'm like, hey, nice to see you, man. How you doing, bro?

Cool, cool. And I'm immediately looking for the exit. I'm like, yeah, so anyways, hey, and I hate to, you know, hey, get my number. Yeah, yeah, I'll take it down. You know, and they asked me for my number. I'm like, you know what, bro, I'm getting a new one tomorrow. Give me your number. I'll get a hold of you.

You know, I make excuses and I push on, man. I don't let anyone around me. I don't have friends that I hang out with. I don't, I stay to myself. I don't, I really don't, I don't go to the clubs. I don't go to, I actually have a wet release on my federal paper. So I can drink and I can go to bars. For what?

I don't drink. I don't go to bars. It's not really much of a, you know, great deal for me. But, you know, I just stay to myself. That's it. I completely, and, you know, I don't get in debt. So, like, if I sell something, I take that money and buy something else, whether it's some drills, you know, whether it's, you know, like I said,

I have a food truck that I bought and I put a lot of money into. I was leasing it out. She stopped paying so I had to repo it from her. But, you know, that sucked. That was, you know, $2,000 a month rent that I was getting for that. But, you know, the food truck's there. And it's still worth a good $35, $40,000. You know, I'd probably just end up selling it soon.

Use some of that money to pay towards my restitution. And then, you know, but I just stay. I live in a camper, man. You know? I mean, I love it. I don't want to pay rent. Rent is dead money to me, you know? So it's like, yeah, I go get a house.

I can rent a house, pay $12, $1,500 a month. It's not too, you know, start filling it with everything that we do in life, you know, and couches and pictures on the walls and stuff, you know, and then I can just be broke, like, and chasing this, you know. And then same thing with like a job, like a actual job, you know. It's like, what do I do, man, you know? I go get a job and then I get fed. fired, you know, that's the American dream. Get a job with good credit and build it up and owe everybody

and get a car on credit and get a house when, you know, you're on credit. And then you're on this hamster wheel and you're like running around and the minute the hamster wheel stops, like your life is flying. And, you know, you're going to lose your girl because now you're broke and you're fighting about money and then you're going to lose your car and you've got to have full coverage insurance on your car when you have a, and so all these things I planned and that's what I kind I used to tell people in prison, you know, like the people that I mentored, I try to explain them. Look, when you get out, to this day, Ian, I'll go to like the convenience store and I just look at prices sometimes.

And I'm like, team, I'm not paying $4 for a candy bar. I would broke. Everybody I know lives their life at these convenience stores. Like it's constant and they're getting big. Like, where I'm from, I know how they are. I here. There's convenience stores everywhere. And it's like they're growing big.

And because people are broke. And so they get money in there. And you want to feel good about yourself. You're like, I finally got a little money. I got paid. I got 200 left over. You're not thinking maybe I could invest this and create a new revenue stream

to get financial security. Instead, they're like, shit, I'm going to buy me some new shoes. You know what I mean? I bought these shoes recently. For instance, dude, most of my stuff is used, bro. I mean, I'll be honest with you. Could I afford some shoes?

I mean, yeah, I could afford. You know, most of the stuff I get is, you know, goodwill. You know, when I'm a millionaire, I'll go buy some shoes and some clothes. When it is such a small fraction of the money that I'm bringing in every day, then I'll use that.

But until then, it'd be like a mechanic getting rid of his toolbox. You know, if, if, you know, like a car, someone lists a car cheap, I gotta be ready to buy it right now.

Those cars, when you got on a Facebook marketplace, for instance, people will list a car for super cheap that's worth way more. Let me tell you something. You got five, ten minutes, even where I'm from,

and that's it, it's gone. So you've got to be like, oh, car, too cheap, quick scan. Look what it is. I'll track them down. If they don't answer back, I'll find them online.

I'll find their address. I'll find their phone number. I'll start contacting them. But you know what I mean? And I'm like, hey, I need this. I'll buy it. I got cash.

I'm coming now. And so that's pretty much it. I'm kind of in this, you know, I have some other businesses that I'm starting. You know, I've got some websites. And I just,

it's hard to, that travel. I can't leave the state without two weeks notice. And so, you know, if I want to go meet with somebody in California about financing a project that I'm working on, I can't just do that.

And so it really is kind of hard. And when I asked to get off a paper early, I told the federal judge, I said, look, I don't even care about being on paper. Will you just take away the travel requirement in two weeks? You know, I mean, because it's the feds. So who cares? In my mind, it's like, look, as long as I tell you where I'm at, you can have a federal probation officer come over here right now and be like, hey, man, how you doing?

Dude, we need a UA. And I'm going to say, yeah, that's no problem. let's go. You know, in my hotel room, if I tell them every day, you know, hey, here's where I'm at. This is my hotel room. You know what I mean? And, like, in the minute I don't, then lock me up, right? Like, lock me up.

Like, if I can't. And then, you know, you can come. And so it's really hard not being able to travel. And if I was in a bigger city, it would be easier. There's more opportunities. Yeah. But I create opportunities where I'm at. Well, we got to get you to your flight, man.

Anyway, he's better get on my flight, man. Yeah. I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Yeah. You have a crazy story. You know, you go for hours with you. those people. But I appreciate you, man, and then safe travel spec. Yeah, it's been funny, and I appreciate it too, man.