Locked In with Ian Bick - I Spent 30 Years as a Cop — These Are the Calls I'll Never Forget | Kristen Ziman

Episode Date: October 27, 2026

Kristen Ziman spent nearly 30 years in law enforcement, rising through the ranks to become the first female police chief in Aurora, Illinois, history. In 2019, she was leading the department when a gunman opened fire at the Henry Pratt Company, killing five employees and shooting five police officers. In this episode, Kristen takes us through her career in policing, the toughest calls she responded to, the challenges of leadership, and what it was like leading her department through a mass shooting. _____________________________________________ Thank you to CASH APP & TALKIATRY for sponsoring this episode: Cash App: Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/6pao71et #CashAppPod Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Cash App Green features, Savings, Direct deposit, Round ups, Overdraft coverage and Discounts provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. _____________________________________________ Talkiatry: Head to https://www.talkiatry.com/lockedin to complete the short assessment and get matched with an in‑network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. _____________________________________________ Connect with Kristen Ziman: Website: https://kristenziman.com/ Book: https://www.amazon.com/Reimagining-Blue-Thoughts-Leadership-Policing-ebook/dp/B09YVPJS8K?ref_=ast_author_mpb _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 The Active Shooter Call 01:04 Growing Up Around Policing 03:47 High School and the Police Cadet Program 06:22 Moving Up the Ranks 08:19 The Women Who Came Before 13:05 Surprises of the Job 15:01 First Body Bags 16:15 Gang Violence and Senseless Killings 18:53 The Public's Perception of Police 23:02 Running Toward Gunfire 26:24 The Stress of Training 27:21 Growing Callous 30:07 Becoming a DV Detective 34:02 Why DV Cases Are So Hard 37:26 From Patrol to Sergeant 40:36 The Lieutenant Test 47:39 Life as a Lieutenant 48:43 The Helicopter Crash 53:08 Preparing to Be a Leader 55:31 Chosen as Commander 58:16 The Value of Education 01:01:32 What Commanders Really Do 01:04:48 Building Community Trust 01:14:32 The Loneliness of the Chief 01:20:46 Should a Chief Be Elected 01:23:04 Preparing for the Worst 01:26:06 February 15th, 2019 01:31:49 The Aftermath of a Mass Shooting 01:41:08 Retirement and Finding Peace 01:49:00 The Beatings Won't Stop _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

He goes, we have an active shooter. And I was like, wait, what? In those words, like the weirdest thing is like they just hung in the air. And it felt like forever, but it was only seconds. And we were stumbling, you know, over each other. And as I'm on the way to the scene, there's the three of us in the car. I'm hanging on to the, oh, shit strap in the squad car. And I hear Officer Gomez's shot.

I hear another officer shot one by one. The officers are shot. They found five people dead. And I'm like taking this. And I'm thinking, this is a movie. This is like a straight up movie. This is not real. That's Kristen Zyman. She spent nearly 30 years in law enforcement, working her way up to become Aurora, Illinois's

first female police chief. In 2019, she led her department through a mass shooting that left five people dead and five officers shot. She later helped review the police response to the Ovalde School shooting. Today, she's sharing the toughest calls, biggest challenges, and lessons from her career behind the badge. I grew up in Aurora, Illinois, home of Wayne's World. Wayne's World, the TV show?

Wayne's World, the TV show, yeah. And then the subsequent movie, so that's all I got. That's all I've got. I never saw the movie. Oh, my God, missing out. Tell us about your early childhood. Born and raised in Aurora, Illinois, to a father who was a cop and former Marine, their only child. And so I, from a very early age, was ended.

enamored by my dad's career. And he would, he would drive around. We'd be in the station wagon. And I noted something when I was like about eight where my dad would go, stay in the car, don't move. I'm like, okay. And he would get out of the car and he would go like pull people out like in an accident scene, right? You know? At one time, I remember a couple years later, I watched him, same, same drill. Don't move. I watched him go wrestle the keys from a drunk. driver who had just like slammed into a toll booth. And I was like, what is happening? And I noted like all of the people driving past. And my dad stopped and helped. And I thought, okay, man, that's what cops do. Like, that's what first responders do. So when I was 10, I solidified like, I'm going to be a cop one day.

And it's never changed. Never have I wavered in that decision. And everything I did in my life was to become a cop one day. And my mom was a stay-at-home mom for my formative years and then went back to work and but just was also super supportive and it was great. But that's the story of how I wanted to go into law enforcement. How did your mom feel about you wanting to become a cop? They were the biggest fans. Neither of them are no longer with us. But they were the biggest fans, especially as an only child and a girl. And now she was cool with it. I mean, I think she saw, and we both saw how much my dad loved it.

And it's just, it was a great profession to be in. And so she was pretty supportive. Plus, I was like that kid that couldn't sit still. And like I could never imagine myself in an office or a cubicle. Like, I needed the difference, the adrenaline. And that's what's cool about policing is every single day. it's something new. Like you have no idea you're sitting in your squad car and then that call comes out and you have no idea what you're going to face with. So no day is different. And I think she saw that

adventure aside in me and was pretty supportive of that. So when you're 10 years old and you decide that's your career path, how does that shape your high school years? Do you do things differently? Do you have a different upbringing at that in that regard? So totally, yes. And you know, with the funniest part is my core friend group that is still, they're still my besties to this day. But, you know, we would go to high school parties. And well, first of all, there was always that, like, stigma of like her dad's a cop, you know? So it was like, you know, don't just don't say anything in front of her. She's a snitch. And I was like, please. But it was even funnier than that as we would go to parties. And everyone would be drinking. And I didn't drink because I was like, I want to get

into the police academy. Like I was so straight and narrow. And then we'd go to these parties and, you know, the cops would come. Someone was like, the cops are on the police. way. And so my friends would literally like hide me in a closet. So the cops wouldn't find me until my dad. And that was a lot of my high school years was just, you know, like staying on the straight and narrow. And all my friends were so on board with that. And so I never felt pure pressure because I was like, no way, man, I'm going to be a cop. Like, so I didn't, I did nothing wrong so I could get into the police academy. It was great. Do you feel like you missed out on anything? Hell yes. Absolutely. I was 18, 17 when I started at the police department. So all of my friends went away to college. And I became a police cadet, which is like an intern. And so it's 17 years old in July of 1991. I graduated high school in June, started at the PD in July. And I would go visit my friends on weekends when I had off at college. And I was like, this is the coolest I have ever seen. And, you know, and I'm

working every weekend and I'm, you know, in a uniform. And no, I missed out on literally everything that, you know, that college had to offer. And so I never went away to school. So they didn't require a college degree? They required an associate degree. So I went to the local community college to get my degree while I was working at the police department as a cadet. And so that was three years as a cadet. And then when I turned 21, then I became a sworn officer, which is, It was a cool program because it was like an onboarding. They test you out as a cadet. You go get your degree.

You have to maintain grades. And then if they decide, yeah, we want you. And then they send you to the academy. And was this the same police department as your father? Yeah. They allowed that to happen? Yeah. My dad was not there anymore by the time I came on.

So, oh, yeah, there's tons of, there's like father's son. There's, you know, siblings. It's all incestuous. Did he go up in leadership as a cop? And he became a sergeant and then he left after 20 years as a sergeant. Was your ambition to rise to the ranks? Funny, no. And here's why, because I didn't know that was possible.

When I started at my PD, there were no women in rank at all. And it's a mid-sized agency, like 300 sworn. It's the second largest city in Illinois. And I didn't know what I didn't know. So when you don't see someone that looks like you in a position, of, you know, leadership, it just never occurred to me. So like the pinnacle for me was just like raising my right hand and becoming a cop getting sworn in. And then a couple of females got promoted to Sargent. And then I was like, oh, well, that's cool. That's a possibility. And then

like so many great stories in many of our lives and I'm sure yours as well, there's always somebody that like sees something in you that you don't see in yourself and it was a lieutenant Doug need him that said you know what you should take the sergeant's test and I'm like what what are you talking to me and he's like yeah you've got some leadership skills and I just thought they were bossy skills like I was just really you know bossy and so and so I took the sergeant's test and I got promoted and then that's when I saw possibility no woman had ever made it to the rank of lieutenant in the history of my department. And so after about five and a half years as sergeant, you know, I thought, I'm going to go for it, man. And that's just a whole story of in and of itself of, you know,

the push and pull of should I do it and the sabotage and, you know, craziness. But I became the first female lieutenant, which was awesome. Were there a lot of women on the force when you first joined in general? No. We, it hovered about 12%. But, you know, we stayed, I think, at that, We pretty consistently stayed at that 12% mark for females in policing, including my department. We stayed at that average. What was the stigma towards female cops at that point in time? So interesting. When I came on, I would say a lot of the stigma really had been lifted.

And I give credit to that to the women who came before me. And there's just a great story of this woman who, in the 70s, you know, I was a girl. born in 73 and my dad was a cop in the 70s and I'd be riding in the car with him and I would see a squad and it was her and I was like my god dad like that's a that's a chick cop and he's like that's Karen he's like she's our first female patrol officer and I'm like whoa like she probably influenced me more than he did because when I saw her I was enamored I was like a lady cop that is the coolest thing and she became my field training officer. So I didn't know her very well during my cadet years. But then when you get

hired, you get three field training officers. And she was one of them. And I was like, we're going to be best friends. Like we are going, this is it. Like this is the woman that I have admired since I was little. And we got into the squad car together. We're riding for one month. And I'd come off of another field training officer, a dude who was awesome. And she didn't speak to me. Like, except unless it was business, she didn't talk to me. And like the other guy was like, we would just yuck it up. He introduced me to his wife, you know. I would go and have dinner at their house. And I was like, she hates me. What have I done? And it wasn't because of my scores because I was doing great. She'd give me my my scores at the end of every week. And she'd be like, you're doing a good job.

I'm like, thank you. But it was just business. So finally, after the last day of week three, we've got one more week left together. And every morning she was on day shift. So every morning she would leave me in the squad car while she went and had coffee. And like, I was just pissed because I wanted some coffee. I was like, what? And she'd like, she'd be like study your map. I'm like, okay. So I would sit there and just study my map and I just started like fuming, right? So the last day of week three, I just looked at her and I go, can you just tell me what I did to piss you off so I can apologize because you obviously hate me. You have not, you have not been kind to me since day one. And she looked at me and she goes, drive. I'm like, that's not going to go very well. So we drive and she's like, all right, park here.

So we're sitting there and she faces forward. And I'm sitting in the driver's seat. And so we're both, you know, it's just awkward. And she's like, I'm going to tell you the story. And I'm like, okay. So when she came on in the 70s, that is when it was horrific for women. She, described to me what it was like being the only woman at the academy. She said that they had like long tables, cafeteria tables, and she's like, they would all be filled. And I would go sit down at an empty seat and they would all get up and they would move to another table and they left me there by myself. She made it through the academy, came back to the PD. She would come out from a call and on her squad car there would be like maxi pad stuck to it. And they would throw sanitary napkins into her

into her mailbox and they treated her like absolute shit. And as she's telling me the story, and it was one story over and over, I just sat there and I was like, she had tears in her eyes and then I'm, you know, crying. And I'm like, okay, I said, but here's what you don't see. And what she ultimately told me was, then you walked in in the 90s. And, you know, everybody was like, hey, cool, you know, nice to meet you. And she's like, you had it so much easier. And she said, and I think I resented that. And I said, but well, you didn't see. was that little girl that watched you drive by and asking my dad who you were. I'm like, you're the reason I'm here.

You're the reason that I got to walk into this police department and people welcomed me because you hacked through that path that was not even there. That was all you. And we just had this remarkable moment and it really showed me that, you never know someone's story. Hurt people, hurt people. And she took it out on me and acknowledged such. And she became the first female sergeant in the history of our police department. And, but quite a story. But I've had my share of, you know, people believing I shouldn't be there. And especially because of my stature, I'm five foot four, 120 pounds wet, right? And so people are like, you can't

hold your own. So I would constantly have to prove myself. But I didn't have it nearly as bad as some of the first females that came in. Well, it's something that surprised. you when you first became a cop that you maybe weren't expecting? You know, I think that there was a push and pull of what I wasn't expecting was the the feeling of being on a team. I, you know, I didn't, I was like in musical theater. I was on the newspaper staff. I was like a big nerd.

And I played a little bit of sports, you know, like softball. But it's like I felt like I had walked into this team of people that would take care of me no matter what. It was like suddenly I had. 300, you know, older brothers that gave me shit all the time and, like, bullied me, but would never, ever let me get hurt, you know? And so I think that that was the coolest part is feeling like I finally belonged somewhere. And that was genuinely what I wanted was, you know, to be this cop and to fit in. And then just finding this family where I felt so supported. So, you know,

and I know that sounds odd to say that that surprised me, but I just didn't have any reference to what that would feel like being a part of it. And every time, you know, I went to a call that was like, you know, serious incident, it's like I just, I always felt like there, you know, we've got each other's back. And that was a really cool feeling. The other things that surprised me, and this wouldn't shock anyone that's in, that is a first responder, is the level of dysfunction in some people's lives and how people genuinely harm one another. And, And, you know, that was a front row seat that I got at 17 years old. I mean, it is a cadet. They were like, do you want to go to this double homicide scene? I'm like, yeah, man, I do. And, you know, and just seeing the, just the gore and the devastation and just how human beings treat another. It's genuinely the underbelly of society. And I don't think I was quite prepared for that. What do you think was that first call that really showed you what it meant to be a first responder?

That was the one. It was, this is, it was horrific. And I still. play the reel in my head. And I, again, I wasn't even a full-fledged cop yet. They just said, hey, kid, it's your lucky day. There's a double homicide. You want to go with us and, you know, go to the scene. And so I went with the detectives. And it was two people killed a husband and wife and their kids were there. And, and they were still alive. They just killed the parents. And these kids were just crawling around. And man, I just can't unsee that. And that was when I was like, this is insane. And then in the 90s, in Aurora, there was a lot of gang violence. And I think what surprised me was just how,

um, how easy it was for people just to take someone else's life. You know, it just, it almost felt like a video game in, in a way where it's like there would be shootings. We would go just back to back. It was like shots fired, you know, someone shot and then we would bounce to the other side of town. And I'm like, man, it's just the way that in, especially in the 90s when it was the height of crime where it just was blood and gore everywhere. And I just thought this, this idea about human life just not being valued whatsoever over a beef, like over a corner, you know. And at that time we had open air drug market. So it was like that corner's that gang. And, you know, and it was that. I was like, man, these people, you know, just are enemies and

don't even know each other, but there's killing each other. And, you know, it was just crazy to me. How do you think it got to that point? Gang related stuff. Yeah, just being willing to take a life so easy. And it even still happens now pretty often. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think that it's a great. I mean, it's a question that you would honestly have to be for a psychologist to say. But it's like this, I think that there's these moments, these I call them man versus moments where like I'm just so pissed at you because you disrespected me. And, you know, in the same way that a rage incident happens or in, you know, a bar fight where, you know, it's like your life. as you know, can change, you know, in moments. And I don't think, I think what happens is the, it's a lack of emotional regulation is like I'm going to, you know, I'm so pissed off because I've been disrespected or insert whatever my grievance is here. And, you know, I'm going to, you know,

go take this life. But I don't think people think it through. And I also think it's immaturity because it's gang, especially gang violence, you know, a lot of younger, it's mostly men, you know, between the ages of, you know, 15 and 23. And I don't think, you know, we fully comprehend that it's permanent, you know, when you shoot someone and you kill them. I mean, that's it. It's, it's, you're done, you know. And so I think that there's a lot of that, you know, probably just one piece of it. I'm sure there are many layers. When you respond to some of those calls, especially early on in your career, do you feel that those individuals are remorse? when you do catch those individuals that are responsible?

That is not something that I felt much. I didn't. I mean, I think it was very calloused. It was like, yeah, I got caught, you know, now I'm going to go to jail. But don't worry, you know, my boys on the outside are going to take care of my family. And so, and I was, you know, I wasn't even in the gang unit or, you know, I was patrol. So a lot of those. cases. You know, I was the one showing up to the scene and, you know, just doing the initial work, but it was the detectives that, you know, interrogated. And I didn't do that early in my career. I became a detective later. And it was for specifically for domestic violence cases. But, you know, I don't see a lot of remorse other than I'm pissed off. I got caught, you know. What was the public's perception of police at that period in the 90s, especially after Rodney King?

Yeah. So the ebb and flow of my career is pretty. pretty remarkable in that I started in 1991 and that was right during the Rodney King riots. And that sent a ripple effect across the nation. Now, there weren't protesters like there was present day, but we felt it. There was, you know, a lot, you know, cops are thugs. And but there was also the other side of the spectrum that's like, yeah, you ran. He had it coming, you know. And so in my department, brand new, you know, just trying to soak it all in, get the vibe, learn the culture. And amongst the cops, it was, that's what you get. You get a what for? You know, if you run from us, you get a what for? And I was like, yeah, you know, so I started to fall into that culture.

And, you know, and I didn't feel the lack of support. Fast forward to like, so there's the beginning of my career. Fast forward to the end of my career. I become chief in 2019. And we have. a mass shooting in 2019, then we have the pandemic in 2020, and then we have George Floyd, you know, just killed in the middle of the daylight by the hands of a police officer and the same ripple effect across the nation, but times 100. I mean, this time, it was a reckoning. And it was very different. And I think you add in, you know, video now. And back then there was no video. So it was just the cop's word against, you know, the bad guy or the bystanders. And then a very different thing happened. And the protesters set our squad cars on fire. They destroyed some of our downtown. They

pried up bricks from the sidewalk and threw them at police officers' heads. And I remember thinking, Jesus, this is the book ends to my career. You know, like I started this way. And then in the middle of my career, I felt like we were loved. And we'd also done a lot of work building relationships. in our community. And then it was like somebody flipped a switch and everyone hated us. Like I can remember wearing my uniform and driving in my car to unmarked squad, but I was on my way to work. And I'm sitting in a stoplight. And I'm just like, I look over, you know, like as one does to the person in the car next to them. And I, and they're literally like this just flicking me off. And I was like, like, like, so violently. And I was like, what? What did we do? Like, it didn't even happen here, you know?

But I felt it. And so, but to say, I would say that it was very different, the latter, the most recent, you know, than it was in the 90s. You ever check your bank account and realize you spent a little more money than you thought you did? We've all been there. Maybe a couple bills hit at the same time. Or you forgot about a subscription and next thing you know, you're overdrafted. And what makes it worse is when you get hit with another fee just for not having enough money in your account. You're already short on money and now you're being charged even more.

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incidents like that. And again, there still was some push and pull on whether this guy deserved what happened to him, you know? And the answer is no. I mean, you know, once you take someone into custody, that's it, right? I mean, that's just how the law works. That's why we have to be responsible with our power. But I don't think it took that long to die down. And like even there was a video there. You could see it, right, with our own eyes. You could see what was happening to Rodney King. But I guess I, unless I was naive because I was just a kid basically at that time, I don't feel like it lingered as long as the reckoning that happened post George Floyd. Can you share with us a memorable story from your time as a patrol officer?

Yeah, I would say probably the first time that I understood that this is no joke was, you know, you go to the academy and you go through all of the drills and the scenario-based training and, you know, like, you know, you're chasing people, you know, with fake guns and, you know, you're just like, it's all, it's like, it's heart palpitating, but it's like, you know, it's contained. And so intellectually, pragmatically, you understand that you're safe, you know, even though, you know, they're putting you through the motions. But then, I get, and this is with one of my FTOs, and he was a fill-in FTO for my permanent guy. And we're just riding two, man, and it's midnight shift. And we just, we hear the shots fired. And then the call comes out over like literally within second. It was like, shots fired. And we're like, we're here. We just, we heard them.

We are in the vicinity. And somebody had been hit. And the next thing I know is, you know, I leave the car in the middle of the street. Like, we just, we hear the shots fired. and we see people running and we start running. And I'm over on one side. We're running through backyards. And I see the muzzle flash.

Like this guy is shooting. And I think what was interesting to me in that moment, there are no thoughts happening. It's literally reverting back to your training. It is falling to the level of your training. And I just remember thinking, just go, go. And, you know, tackling the guy. and I'm trying to, you know, get my handcuffs and trying to get his hand behind his back. My FTO shows up and we're both fighting him.

And we take him into custody and, you know, got the gun secured. And I have this moment when we get back in the squad, like I looked at him and I was like, holy shit. Like that just actually happened. Like that was real life. This is now my life. You know, I'm 21, you know? And I'm like, this is crazy that that actually happened, the stuff that you see on the movies.

And, you know, the cool part is your training allows you to get through that and to do the thing that you need to do. But I just remember being there with my FTO and just being like, I can't believe that happened. Can you believe that happen? And he's like, yeah, that's what happens, you know. And so it's just like crazy stuff like that that made me kind of lock in and go, wow, this is, this is crazy stuff, you know. How long does it take to react naturally? It, you don't. I mean, there is no time because it is muscle memory if you're trained right.

I mean, the departments and the academies that train, that it makes it so this is second nature to you. And I give a lot of credit to academies and training divisions that, especially the ones that put the stress into those scenarios. And when I say stress, I mean, in our department, we have, you know, our training division would put us through scenarios that felt so real. They would bring in, you know, squad cars and put them, you know, into our range and turn all the lights off. and the smoke, we would go utilize abandoned buildings and they would turn the sprinklers on. We would use simunition, which hurts like hell. It was like where it feels like if you're getting hit with that, like it's it breaks the skin.

It feels. And so you're, you feel it and you know in that moment that you are training for the real thing. You play like you practice. And so if you're trained correctly, there is no thinking. There is just doing. And, you know, that's why afterwards sometimes I'm like, holy, oh my God, that was crazy, you know, but you don't think about it in the moment. It's got to be interesting growing up in a police department too.

You know, joining at such a young age of 21, your mind's not fully developed and going through all the way to your 30s having that mental growth in you. Oh, my God. Yeah. Well, and especially because, you know, I was so naive, you know, I mean, like I said, I'm that, I was that kid that was like, I'm just going to follow all the rules. and, you know, and I just, and my dad didn't do a great job of explaining what I was in for. He was like the kind of quiet stoic and never said anything and like also, you know, went to the bar every day after work. And he was an evidence guy when he was in patrol. And so he's the guy that went to the gory scenes and saw the worst of the worst.

Never said a word about it. It was like, how's your day? Great. you know and so uh i don't think he adequately prepared me for what i was going to see so that became the evolution and you know and i don't know any other word for it except to say it it's a callousness that just develops it's like you just start to get some thicker skin like that first homicide double homicide kept me up that my first um and you know the first time i i you know went to the medical examiner and saw an autopsy i i didn't sleep

for three days. I was like, I can't believe I just saw that with my eyes, right? And then, then the next one just is like, all right, now it's, you know, it's a gaping, you know, gunshot wound and all right, get the, get the first aid kid and deal with it. And then it's just, it's absolutely nothing. I mean, and that's a really weird way to describe, you know, when you see someone die in front of you. And that's how it became. It just gets easier and it becomes, you just get callous to it because you have to. Otherwise, I think, probably you won't survive it. Do you think seeing those things with your own eyes made you understand how your dad

operated or acted? Yeah, but too late now, right? Because, like, it's a sad story. I mean, my dad was the guy that said to me, never let them see you cry. There's no crying in police where there is no saying, I don't know. He's like, you know, like people already don't want you there because you're a woman. So, you know, he's like, never let the bastards get you down. and so don't show your feelings is basically what he taught me.

And he then became an alcoholic and then took his own life. And so he was wrong. And so I had to, so what I learned from him, you could say, you know, kind of protected me throughout those years where I was like, yeah, okay, this is what I have to be. And then I had to unlearn that in order to survive. And unlearning it took a whole lot of time. and I think I finally unlearned it right about the time I left. When did you make up in your mind that you wanted to be a detective?

So that actually just happened to me. I didn't. I wanted to be on the street. As I mentioned, like sitting at a desk and I, the mundane stuff is boring to me. And I was in a community policing unit at that time. And we had so much autonomy. And our role at that time was what's the crime happening right here, figure out a way to solve the problem. And I loved that creative problem solving. And so we did a lot of

undercover stuff. And we had really a long leash to go do some really cool things. And then that same lieutenant that said, I see a lot of leadership qualities in you. He's like, hey, he said, you do a really good job of responding to domestic violence calls. And he's right. I did because I have this, This is this, it's just a communication style that I have where I can talk to a bad guy and, you know, I can, I just, you know, can separate them and I can, you know, elicit from them what's happening. And people will feel a sense of ease with me. And he's like, you do a really good job. He's like, your reports are great. He's like, we're standing up a brand new unit. It's going to be called the domestic violence reduction unit because at that time, domestics were just, it was terrible. We were just people were beating the shit out of each other all the time. And, And we have just repeat offenders. And so we wanted to, he wanted to launch a unit dedicated to just those calls. And so he's like, I want you to go research it. And he picked me and another dude.

And we went and traveled around to other departments. I wrote policy. And little did I know as, you know, a patrol officer that writing policy was also, you know, was a gift because then I would later learn like, oh, I've already done this before. I know how to write that. And so we built that domestic violence unit from the ground up. So I became a detective kind of against my will. Why was detective domestic violence so bad at that period of time? I think that it was one of those close the blind situations where if there was someone who was battered, people were just like, it's a family business.

It's, you know, even though they would hear the screams, they would hear, it was just, you know, the terror. Even if it, you know, it happened in public, people were just like, like, oh, not my problem, right? And then, you know, new domestic laws, domestic violence laws came out, like in 1987, where it got more stringent, where, you know, a victim didn't have to be the complain because notoriously the victims are not going to complain or be the complainant against their abuser, not because they don't want to, but because they're protecting themselves from the next beating. You know, they're, so they notoriously will recant, won't show up in court, we'll say, no, it's okay, it didn't happen. So then laws came into place to protect that victim where a

police officer could be a complainant. And so it was, you know, finally starting to get, I think the visibility it deserves. And then we started looking at like the homicides and, you know, the aggravated assault and people were being harmed. I mean, one of the first cases that I dealt with as a detective was a guy who took hot oil and just threw it onto his wife. And, you know, and I'm like, this, this is like, you do this to someone you love, right? You know, it's like there's gang violence over here where you don't even really know the person that you're, that you hate. And then here is a person you're married to or you're in a relationship with. And you're harming them, you know.

And one woman was, for three days, he handcuffed her, restrained her to his weight bench. And, you know, she was stuck there for days. And I was like, these are people that are supposed to love you. And so I think. that the reason it was so prevalent is because nobody wanted to get involved because it's a family matter. And then that started to change. And I think the society started to say, no, we need to step in here. When you respond to those types of calls that are that severe, how do you hold back, you know, keep your cool refrain from going after someone like that? Yeah, well, it's really hard.

And honestly, it's one of the reasons I got out of it because after I did, I think it was like five years, there I had so many success stories so many so many victims and survivors of so many survivors that that got out of the relationship and like you know realize this is not normal and you know I deserve better but they were also the ones that you know we would go to court and they would call me a liar on the stand and you know it's like we'd show the pictures you know the busted lip and the black eye and they would be like no well that's not what happened you know and they would recant everything and it started to drain me where I was like I am devoting a lot of my time, effort, energy into getting this person convicted. And I'm at odds with the person that is harmed here. And I just, I had kind of a like, I wasn't midlife yet really, but I was like, this is kind of a midlife crisis. So I went to my lieutenant. And I was like, I think I want to go back to the street. I just, I loved this job. I'm grateful for it. I was so glad to be a part of setting that, you know, that unit up. But I was like, I've kind of had enough.

Do you find that the men in these situations have successful fronts or are big in the community? Oh, many times. That is one thing about domestic violence is that there is absolutely no, you know, like, you can look at someone and make inferences about them based on their socioeconomic status, whether they're gang affiliated, you know, and in, you know, and in, in, you know, domestic violence, it is, there is none of that. You, you, you, we have million dollar houses in Aurora and, you know, and we had poverty in Aurora. And you would never know, no, you know, unless you knew what was going on behind those closed doors. So it knows no bounds between a person who is educated, successful, uh, versus a person who's, you know, perhaps, you know, breaks the law. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's, it's equal opportunity when it comes to an abuser. What about women against men cases? Did you experience that? a lot? I did, but relatively minimal. And just as far as statistics go, you know, so perhaps you could wonder, do men maybe not report it as much? That would be a factor. I would take a look at, you know, in research. But definitely very minimal, was it women, you know, abusing men?

How far into your career were you already when you left that department or that unit? about 10, let's see, I had roughly nine years on. And I went back to the street. And that's when I decided to take the sergeant's test and got promoted to a supervisory position. Are you still a detective when you go back to the street? No. So you lose that rank? How did that make you feel? No, it's a lateral transfer. So it's not like it's a, you know, it's, you know, it's, you don't get paid more. It's just, it's just a title, but it's a lateral transfer. And no, I just like I said, I never really wanted to be a detective. So it was, especially when I asked him, like, please, I just got to get out of here. So I went back to 3 to 11 shift and then got promoted shortly after that.

What was that transition to Sergeant like for you? That was probably the hardest transition ever because you go from being one of the guys, proverbially to being the boss, you know, and then I'm 30. So I'm supervising, you know, people that are in their 50s have been there 27 years, you know, and they're like, you don't know shit, kid, you know. And so, and I think the reason that, that I did okay is because I, man, I don't, because I'll tell you what, I learned what not to do from a lot of supervisors. Like some of the biggest leadership lessons I have had in my life have been by, you know, what not to do. And I remember as a young sergeant, like, you know, I just would look at the guys and go, you know better than I do, man. Like, you know, you tell me what do you think we should do

here. And I just didn't have that sense of like, like, because I had stripes on my arm, like, suddenly I knew exactly what the answer should be or that I was smarter than anybody. And I think that served me well. Plus, you know, I'd worked with these guys for 10 years. And so they knew that, you know, I wasn't an asshole. But I came at the approach like that as like best idea wins. And I don't have the, I don't have the best answer every single time. When was the first time? you were really tested as a sergeant and put in a tough position? I think probably just disciplining people, you know, and especially, you know, coming from the street and there's like people had this joke

because, you know, even, you know, when you commit infractions as a patrol officer, well, now you're in a position where you have to now discipline people, right? So on the midnight shift, my friend and I, we would just take turn. We would pull our squads up next to each other and we would go sleep. So, and people knew that. because I told everyone. I was like, we just, we just went sleeping that parking lot, but we had each other's back, right? You know, like, one person would stay awake, the other would sleep. So, I hated midnight shift. And so then that became a, like, I have to discipline you now,

but, you know, I was a guy doing that, right? But you can't not do it just because you have been there and didn't get caught. I'm like, I just didn't get caught. That's your problem, you know? But it's, just hard. I think the accountability piece is the hardest thing where it's like, okay, you know, you forgot where you came from. Like, I didn't, but, you know, I still have to, still have to follow policy here. Were you a sergeant on Midnight Patrol again? Yeah. I was on Mids.

I was on second shift days, all of the shifts. What's a worst shift to work? For me, it's midnights. Well, it's this kind of, it's twofold, though, because Midnights is awesome because there's no, like, nobody's around. And so you can get from one end of the city to the other and, like, you can just fly down the streets and traffic, you know, so it's just, it's cool and it feels very, very loose. And the cool thing about Mids, it's like right out of the gate, you know,

like 11 p.m. It is busy. And then the bars close at one. And so it's just popping all the way. And then at 4 a.m. it's like, all right, man, it's like you can breathe a little bit. And so then we would all go get breakfast together. And so as much as I hated the hours, because it's just I don't sleep well during the day, those, that was my favorite shift with my comrades to work just because we were such a tight-knit shift. And that was awesome. I missed that. How long did you say a sergeant for? I was a sergeant for five and a half years until I became a lieutenant. Was that a usual amount of time?

Yeah, pretty usual. Like the guys that, you know, we're trying to promote, you know, probably some had more, some had less. I mean, the cool thing about the promotional process is that anybody can take the test, but you'll get seniority points or you'll get, you know, kind of a rating based on how long you've been in your position. But that was a nice sweet spot. was, you know, about five and a half years because I'd proven myself. And, um, but that's the story

in and of itself because I almost didn't take the lieutenant's test because I had a commander who was a a saboteur. And, uh, he called me in his office. And he, he just, we had a disagreement about just the way I wrote my annual evaluations on my officers. And he, he said to me, like, you're really into this empowerment thing, are you? And I'm like, it was a bad thing, right? And I was like, am I on camera? Like, yeah. I mean. of empowerment. That's kind of what leaders strive for, you know. And he's just old school, traditional, autocratic. And so we get into it and I explain my position. I'm like, yeah, I want my officers to read their annual and to not want to kick the garbage can on the way out the door.

Like I want to point out how they add value and, you know, how they elevate the shift. But I'm like, but there's also tons of things in there about improvement. I think, I think feedback and criticism when it comes from a sincere place of caring and wanting you to get better is a gift. And that's always been my favorite thing is to fight for feedback. And I tried to do that to my officers. Well, this guy was a punisher. It's like if you weren't punishing people, then you have no business being a supervisor, right? So we got into it and he leans into me and he's like, you take in the lieutenant's test. And just that morning, I had signed up for the lieutenant's tests. And I'm embarrassed to tell like how long I stood in front of that sign up sheet. It was like a manual sign up sheet. And I just

like stared at it. And I thought, you know, never, never been a female lieutenant in the history of our department. I was like, oh, shit, why, you know? And then I mustered up the courage. I was like, all right, man, I'm just going to do it. And in this meeting, he says, did you sign up for the lieutenant's test? I was like, yes, sir. I just signed up this morning. And he goes, you will never become a lieutenant in this police department if I have anything to say about it. And I was like, oh sitting like just like you and i are right and then i remembered that my dad told me there's no crying in police work so i bit my lip like so i could taste blood you know and i was like all right all right is that it and i got into my car and then i went into the dry heave ugly cry and uh and i thought

what do what do i what am i thinking there's no way i'm going to become a lieutenant in this police department i'm not going to sign up for that i'm not going to go through with it he's going to keep me down him and whoever would an army of people that he'll bring in to sabotage me. And so on the way home, I convinced myself, like, what were you thinking? Why, why you? Why did you think you could even attain that rank in this department? And then, I don't know, man, something snapped in me, and I just was like, wait a minute. Why not me? And I got home and I was like, wait a minute. Like, why not me? I ordered all the books and they sucked. They're boring as hell. But I I started to read the books. And every time I got tired of reading those books and studying,

his face would flash inside my head. And I was like, nope. And I picked him up again. I read them once. And then I read them again. And then I dictated them onto a tape recorder. And I played that cassette in my yellow Sony Walkman. Probably don't know what that is. No, they have any presents and stuff. Are they coming back? They should come back. That's vintage. And I scored number one on that test. And I became the first female lieutenant. And that story is so important, not for me, but for literally everyone, is that when you learn to use criticism as fuel, you will never run out of energy. And that's exactly what I did. I took all of his criticism.

And I just let, I mean, there was no depth and breath to the reservoir of energy and strength that. So I credit him for my becoming the first female lieutenant. It was because of him that I pursued it so vehemently. How did he react? As you can imagine. I mean, not at all, you know. And, yeah, he was just, he was an arch nemesis throughout my entire career. Don't lieutenants have to work together because there's fewer of them than, say, the sergeants?

Yep. There's, yeah, in my department, there was like 39 sergeants and 11 lieutenants. And so, yeah, and as you move up, you know, the, yeah, it gets smaller. But, you know, it's because it was a bigger department, you know, you're in a different unit, a different department, a different division. And you don't often run into each other. But, you know, so it was, we coexisted. One thing I've learned from doing this podcast is just how much the things we experience in life

can affect our mental health. I've sat across from people who've spent decades behind bars and law enforcement officers who've witnessed some of the most horrific things you could imagine. And something that comes up over and over again is how those experiences can stay with you long after they're over.

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an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's T-A-L-K-I-A-T-R-Y.com Slash Locked-In to get matched in minutes, tachiatry.com slash locked in. Is being a lieutenant less on the street time? Yes, that's when you actually hit the administrative role. This is the lieutenant's position is the position where you genuinely have to get work done through others. You rely on your sergeants who do admin stuff, but they're also on the street supervising. And, but the biggest transition is from Sergeant to Lieutenant where you are admin. You're running your shift. You're looking at numbers. You're looking at crime trends. You're looking at manpower. All of the things that honestly are not fun. For someone that love patrol and being out there so much, it seems like you wouldn't want to do that.

Yeah. It's, that was the juxtaposition of getting promoted. It's like, I never wanted to work behind a desk. And then I was behind a desk. And then from lieutenant to commander to chief, you're, you know, you're behind a desk. Are you ever called out into the field as a lieutenant? Oh, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Every time there's a serious incident, usually, you know, especially on midnight, I was on midnight as a lieutenant. And so I was the highest ranking individual there. And so whenever there was, you know, an incident of magnitude, then, you know,

lieutenant shows up on the scene. What would one of those incidents be? We had a helicopter crash. There was the air angels that transport the medics that transport people to the hospital. This was another film reel. plays over and over in my head. And the helicopter had just picked up a little girl, one-year-old girl, and the parents were driving.

And they were taken, they were medevacking them into Chicago. And parents were on the ground. And that helicopter crashed and everyone on board died. And that scene was absolutely horrific. And so that was one of the first scenes that I had to respond to as a lieutenant. Why did crash? Hit a like electric wires and it was dark and somehow didn't see those. I believe that was the cause according to the ETSB. But yeah, it went down no survivors. And a scene like that, how do you respond as a lieutenant? It's honestly, it's just making sure everything, you know, it's the checking the boxes, making sure that this now who needs to know. And at that point, this is bigger than our jurisdiction because it's, you know, the ETSB has to.

come out and review the crash and then making sure that, you know, you're notifying the chain of command and then managing media because media is just heading out to, you know, all these big scenes. And then also making sure that your officers are writing the reports and doing everything that they need to do, you know, for this incident. Not a criminal incident, of course, but still one that needs to be investigated. So you have a lot of plates spinning in the air when you're running those kinds of scenes. How did you feel talking to the media? Oh, easy. I love talking to the media. I don't know why. I think it's just this is, and I'm a keynote speaker to this day, and I do a lot of media appearances because I talk a lot about mass violence. But and people are like, how do you, how do you have this ease when it comes to talking to the media? And I think I just cut my teeth on being a community policing officer where when I told you we were solving problems, well, the problems that we would solve were a lot of pissing.

off neighbors, like community members, residents, where they're just like, there's too many shootings in our neighborhood, or the noises are too loud. There's loud music. It was like always something, right? So I would be in front of people as, you know, as an officer going, okay, all right, I understand, you know, that this is what's pissing you off, but, and here's going to be our response to it. We're going to take this back. And so I got real comfortable being in front of people. And then as I moved up in rank, then the microphone, you know, came into my face, like at a podium. specifically as a commander and the chief. And it just got to be something comfortable.

And the way that I see the media is that they have a very honorable job to do. They have to hold us accountable. And, you know, I never subscribed to the no comment, you know, or it's under investigation. And the reason is because the truth always finds its way. And I always thought, why, if something happened in our department and I have had, had to say, you know, hey, we were not our best that day. Policy was violated and there's going to be accountability. And the way I see it is there are three parts to an apology. I'm sorry. I was wrong. And here's what we're going to do to fix it so it doesn't happen again. And I've

always found that just having that relationship with the media and being honest about what has transpired is the best thing you can possibly do. But it just comes relatively easy to me because it's just humans talking. Do you find that when a no comment statement is made to the press and that's how things get spun to and the truth doesn't get shared the way it should be? Absolutely. I mean, you know, in the absence of, you know, of a true statement, people will write their own narrative, you know, and that's, you know, it's exactly what happened in your life, you know. I mean, like a lot of people like to talk and to, you know, insert what they are calling facts or, you know, their perspectives or perceptions as they see it. And it's not factual as to actually what happened. And so that's why I

always err on the side of like, this is what I know right now. And I'll tell you everything I know. If I don't know, I'll say, I have no idea. But once that information becomes available to me, I will let you know. But human beings in the absence of information, they will write their own stories. Now, do you think all of these moments throughout your career prepared you for what you would face as a chief? I do. I see. still think that every chair that I have sat in, like, you know, I'm sure many people can relate to this, but it's like, you know, you think about your boss and you're like, what the hell do they do all day, right? And I used to think, I used to have that thought like 20 times a day. I was like,

I don't even, I don't even see our chief. And, you know, I was there for 30 years. So I worked for a lot of chiefs. And I remember thinking like, what do they even do? I never see them, right? But every chair I got into, you know, I'd like sit in that chair, you know, like symbolically, right? And And I would be like, oh, this is why they do that. Like, they have to hold us accountable for crashing squad cars because it costs a lot of money. I'm like, holy shit, this is how much money that we spend on squad crashes, you know? And I'm like, so we have to discipline people for getting in crashes.

And so I'm like, oh, that's why they do that. And I think that every position prepared me for the next one, but I still, you know, was surprised when I got there. I was like, oh, wait, this is what we do now. okay, and I just tried to, I tried to have the mentality that I don't know what I don't know yet, but I had better learn quick and I'd better earn the fact that I now have, you know, these stars on my collar. When you're lieutenant, do you think that's it or do you still have hopes to move up more?

I think that's it. I think that's it. And the reason is because every chief before me, you knew exactly who they were going to promote to commander. So when you go from, from sergeant to lieutenant, that's all testing. So, you know, you don't have a lot of control over it. It's like how a person takes a test and there is a rating, you know, attached to it. So, you know, leadership has some say, you know, in kind of, you know, molding that final rating. And, but ultimately it's, you know, it's a civil service test. But then from lieutenant to commander, that's all appointed. So commander, deputy chief and chief, and that's just the rank in my department. Different, you know, agencies have different rank structures, all appointed.

And so I thought, oh, I'm just, I mean, this is cool, though. I'm like the first female lieutenant. I'm like, I'm good. And it never occurred to me that I would ever get chosen as a commander because every chief before me kind of promoted their friends. And I'll tell you, this guy, the chief that he broke the mold. Greg Thomas and he deserves the biggest shout out. He's the guy that promoted me to commander.

And he made it very clear from the onset what his values are as great leaders do. He said, I value education. He's like, I want anybody who is looking to move up and rank in this police department, I want you to take your education very serious. Now, there's a lot of debate in our field on whether a degree makes you a better police officer. So that aside, these were his. values. He was a very educated individual, and he demanded that. And so I heard that. And when he said that, I was a sergeant. I went back and I went back and got my bachelor's. Then I went back. I got my master's degree.

And then I got a second master's degree. And when it came time for a position to be open as commander, he said, anybody who's interested can put in for it instead of just appointing like they used to do. So I thought, fuck it. I'm doing it. And that time, I was tired of all of the second guessing myself, you know, and I felt confident and I felt like I had done the work. And so I was like, yeah, I'm throwing my name in the hat, never expecting that I was going to get it. And he chose me. And I later asked him, I'm like, seriously, tell me why you picked me. And he's like, well, he said, you think differently than I do. And he said, and I don't understand the way you think, which is why I need you around me. And I was like, what a really cool

thing to say and to believe because everyone before him picked people that thought like them, that looked like them. And this guy was all about diversity of thought. And he's like, because I, he's like, I need you because you fill a gap for me. And he's like, you know, I have my concerns, you know, because you're younger. And he's like, but he's like, I think that you'll bring a nice back. And that's what he wanted. He created an environment where we had a lot of diversity of thought. And a lot of leaders don't do that. They stay with what's comfortable. So that's cool. I always like to give him a shout out. What were you getting degrees in criminology? Or the first by bachelor's degrees in criminal justice, criminal justice management. And then I went back and got a master's degree in criminal justice with the emphasis on management. And then I got accepted to the naval postgraduate school. And I. I got my second master's degree in Homeland Security and Defense, so like terrorism. And do you think those degrees helped you? Here is why that debate, you know, as I said, you know, that's for another day.

But that debate, it helps with critical thinking. Like, you know, when you think something and, you know, we have a tendency, like this is our belief system, you know, and this is the way that we see the world and the lens with which we see the world. Well, academia challenges every thought that you have. And it says, oh, cool, you think that way, prove it. And so you can't just say, well, here's what I heard on TV and regurgitate what a pundit says or, you know, what someone else's opinion is. And when you do that, they'll go, oh, yeah, well, why do you think that? You know, tell me how and why you got to that opinion. So it forces you to research.

And it also forces you to hold two opposing opinions, you know, and choose which one you think is better suited based on research, not about how you feel. It's about facts. And so for me, it built critical thinking in me and it exposed me to ideas that I just never would have been exposed to. So does it make you a better cop on the street? The answer is I have no idea. I think yes if I had to choose because I think it makes you a better problem solver. I think it makes you open to new ideas and being creative and problem solving. So for me, it's been very beneficial. And I was a shitty student in high school. Like my parents did not value education. And plus, as I told you, I wanted to be a cop. So anything like you put me in a history class or math class. And I was like, I don't even care about this. I just want to be in criminal justice. Right. So I was a solid C student, you know, with a couple Ds and F's peppered in there in math. I sucked so bad. And then the only classes I got A's in were English. And then funny, you know, I would become a writer and write a book. that was from an English teacher that brought me onto her newspaper staff and I started my own

column. And so I credit her for kind of bringing that talent out in me. But when I got to college, though, I took criminal justice classes. I'm like, this is what I want. And so I loved it. And then just I became like, I just had this insatiable thirst for learning. And I'm back in school now just because I can't quit. What was your role as a commander? Commander was we had three different units. And so you've got your patrol division. You've got your, it's like what, and then the next one is like where detectives fall under. So investigative division. And that's where vice and narcotics fall under your specialty units.

And then there's admin that handles all the records and kind of the non-sexy things, right? So as a commander for almost all of it, I was the patrol commander. So I oversaw the entire patrol division. And what type of things would cover to you in that day? So that was manpower. That was putting people in the right places, you know, moving lieutenants and putting them in charge. There's this thing that I always said is that some people should be in charge of things and some people should be in charge of people. And so in the patrol division, you're largely in charge of people.

And so I wanted to make sure that I had the right people in those positions. And I've been an astute student of leadership. And so trying to apply those theories, trying to understand what motivates people. And, you know, what we don't, we don't have a profitability in our organization, but our bottom line, our profitability is, does crime go down? So let's look at how we reduce crime. And so that was a part of my job is, you know, let's come up with initiatives where we will reduce crime. And then a lot of that is admin as far as accountability because it's the largest department, which means there was the most, you know, in, Internal Affairs, officers that, you know, discipline. So I spent a lot of my time looking at officers

discipline and making those kinds of recommendations. What did you find was the best way to reduce crime? So a lot of things. I still stand by community involvement is the best way. You know, we were a department of 300 sworn, you know, in a city of, you know, 200 and something thousand people, we can't be everywhere, right? And so we have to rely on our community, which is a force multiplier. And when the community distrust their police, they don't tell them shit. And any cop that's like, hey, we had a shooting over here the other day to just see anything. And they just closed their door. And they're like, no, we don't want to help you. And what I learned, and I think had the greatest value was these officers who were actually really good

at community engagement. And I said, instead of letting one unit do it, the community policing unit, how about we all become community policing officers? And I challenged my cops when I became chief and even during commander. And I said, when you're not responding to a 911 call, you got some downtime. So we call that self-initiated activity. You can go run traffic stops, you know, stop, pull people over. I said, or what if you pulled your squaw car? over, put it in park, got out of your car. And what if you just went and walked down the street and you're, you know, in the jurisdiction that you patrol? And I said, I'm going to bet a couple things happen. One, people will look out the window and they'll go, honey, a cop is outside.

What do you think happened? And then they'll start talking. And then eventually someone will come out and go, is everything okay, officer? And your response will be, everything's great. This is my, you know, this is where I'm assigned. You know, my name is Officer Jones. And, hey, if you need anything, if you see anything, if you have any issues, contact me. And so I made a goal in our police department to engage the community more. And those officers, they blew that goal out of the water, man. They just started, they built, I think the relationships that helped us drive down crime because they felt those residents of Aurora felt that they were part of our team.

That, I think, is the biggest case that I can make for crime deterrence. And not only that, but just visibility, you know, getting officers, you know, just not hiding in a parking lot, but driving, you know, on their beats and talking to people and being visible and, you know, out there doing those self-initiated field activities where, you know, you're looking for things that are out of the ordinary. But community I still stand by is the great force multiplier. Why do you think departments over time had lost sight of that and now it's coming back, but there's been a long period of time where that didn't exist? I think because we are under so much pressure to look at the analytics.

You know, it's like, here's your 911 calls coming in and don't spend a lot of time on that call because you've got to get to the next one. And I gave officers permission. I was like, if you could solve a problem, like a domestic would be a great, you know, great example, instead of just taking a report and leaving or, you know, like, is there something that you could do, you know, could you hook them up with another social service agency, maybe a substance abuse, you know, like, could you do something that you see as causal to the problem here. And if that means you spend a little more time on the call and then

somebody has to wait, that's okay. We can't wait on priority one calls. That's when like someone's bleeding, right? But, you know, if they're priority three calls and it's a report call, I don't mind if you spend a little extra time trying to solve the problem because all that does then is it helps us so we don't have to respond again. If we can solve the problem, then, you know, then we can alleviate the haven't, it's like the address would pop up and like, oh, we're at it again. You know, they're fighting again. You know, it's like, well, how about we solve the problem, you know? How often would you see something in the news maybe about a police officer doing something wrong or just anything in general? And you say to yourself, that'll never happen in our department

and then it happens. Oh, yeah, I would never say that. So I'm smart enough to, I am smart enough to look at someone else's shit show and go, oh, God, like, what if that happens here? In fact, that's part of going back to school and my second master's degree is in terrorism basically where you constantly ask yourself what is the worst thing that could possibly happen and I always tell people I'm really fun at parties but I'm still looking at like what's the worst thing that could happen and it's no different when I look you know at something that has happened somewhere else and think yeah that's coming here like that's that's coming here so we need to get out ahead of it and make sure that, you know, if it's maybe officer, you know,

malfeasance, we put that in front of our officers and say, this happened here. Here's how we're going to ensure that's never happens, you know, in our jurisdiction and retrain people, talk about it, you know, look at other people's mistakes and go, hey, let's not make that same mistakes. So I love, love learning from the mistakes of others and never have I ever said that will never happen here. And, you know, I was on the DOJ team that did the Uvalde review. And I heard a lot of that when we were on the ground in Uvalde from citizens, residents, and police officers alike, is, oh, gosh, we never thought that would happen here. And I think that's the worst state as a first responder or a planner for, you know, risk that you can, that's the worst mindset you can have is that

will never happen here. I mean, look at Newtown, which is right next door to us. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, I mean, and tragic. I mean, absolutely. There are no words. There are absolutely no words. But, you know, I, as somebody who is a subject matter expert on mass violence, I look at these incidents. And I think there are so many red flags that we trip over, you know. And that's why I'm constantly thinking what's the worst thing that could happen and how can we prevent that from happening? And, you know, in many of these cases we can. Was there an incident early on your career that happened in another state that you really fixated on to ensure it didn't happen in your community? No, I think I just, they happen, especially at mass shootings. Columbine was a big eye-opener for us. And the reason, and I would say that's maybe one I studied from afar. And that's when the entire industry of law enforcement really hit the pause button and said, we suck.

Like we need to get into those schools and into these incidents and not set up a perimeter and wait for SWAT. And that's exactly what we were trained to do is mass shooting. That means somebody is inside with a gun. You know, everybody just build a perimeter so bad guy can't escape, call the SWAT team. Well, it takes forever for the SWAT team to get there. And I love SWAT. But, you know, it's like that's where you call in for high incidents. And so what we're realizing are people are dying and they need to be triage.

And they didn't have to die. But the reason they died is because they were left there to bleed out because we didn't get first responders in. And so I think that probably, to answer your question, was the first case where I looked at. And, you know, we all collectively, as law enforcement went, we cannot respond that way anymore. Would you guys run through drills for situations like that? Yeah, that's exactly what we would do. That's exactly what I described in the experiential and scenario-based training is we would do mass shootings. And the cool part about it is like our training team would like they would

throw us curve balls. Like there's a mass shooting and we're tending that actors and everything and we're tending to, you know, these victims. And then like a bomb would go off over here. We're like, what? Come on, man. You know, but it was like constantly throwing stuff at us so that, you know, it's just like real life. You never know what's going to happen. And, you know, we're taught that if there's one shooter, then you always assume there's two. If there's two, you always assume there's three. You know, if this happened, you always assume that there's, you know, something's going to detonate over here and there or there's, you know, somebody else at another location. Just, you know, kind of like in 9-11 form, right? You know, they're just, it was choreographed, you know. And so we build our scenarios. And I give all the credit to our training officers that put those scenarios together. Did the public confuse your city for the Colorado city that had the shooting? Almost every freaking day. So the funny part is when I was chief, there was a lot of. shit going on in Aurora, Colorado, a lot of things that were, that made headlines and really did not

serve the officers well. So first of all, after the mass shooting, everybody, you know, when I was from Aurora, they're like, oh my God, you're mass shooting in the theater. I'm like, no. And we hadn't even had our mass shooting yet. That happened in 2019. But constantly, because I traveled a lot to conferences. And so it was like, Aurora. So I always had to set the record straight. And I know, I'm from the other Aurora. Well, then we had a mass shooting. And then it was even more confusing. It was like, wait, you both had mass shootings. Well, the funniest thing, and I say funny, but it's probably the wrong choice of words. Well, so many of their officers were making headlines for doing horrific things. And I would get phone calls every day in my office. Like my admin assistant,

she would be like, there's the person on the phone that is screaming over, you know, what happened, where I would get voicemails that are like, you, I mean, the worst voicemails. And I would be like, we don't even have that officer here. Like there's not even, you know, and then that street didn't, wasn't here. So I started forwarding all of those complaints to the other Aurora chief. And her name was Vanessa at the time. And we became pals, never met each other. But I was like, here's another one of your officers that screwed up. And I'm getting a hit for it. And so I would just like forward voicemails and, you know, be like, hey, you know, you want to deal with this? So I don't have to. So it became kind of a joke. That's like on social media, people will tag the wrong police department.

because there's so many towns that are similar and that'll say similar things I saw a post the other day. Someone was totally hating on some Connecticut police department, but they tagged a police department in a totally different state. Like, this is just, we just need to get our facts right, you know, before we start throwing fingers, you know, in accusations. And because there's nothing that makes you look stupider than, you know, and those phone calls were my favorite. Though when I had to call back, I'd be like, yeah, you have the wrong state, you know. And they were like, oh, you know, never like, sorry. You know, it was just like, oh, my bad, you know. What was a journey from commander, the chief like, for you?

That was an interesting one because, talk about a big leap, you know, going from commander running the patrol division. And so it, but then it's like there's always this sense when you're in, I was second in command, you know, just like my other commanders. But there's the sense of there's still someone else calling the shots. You know, you always have like, well, the chief decided this, you know. And that's such a cop out in leadership to ever say, well, the chief said we have to do this. So, you know, I learned that leadership 101, you know, you fly the flag. But I don't think I realize like how much the buck stops with you when you are the one calling the shots. And, you know, it's like people would come in. They're like, well, here, you know, what we have to do about this? And I'm like, I don't know, you know. And I was expected to know everything about everything. And I didn't. And I think. that's where kind of my personality served me to be like, well, I'm not really sure of the answer here. I've never had to make a kind of decision like this. We've never had this before. So let's put our heads together and figure it out. But the one thing that I will say that people warned me about when I became chief, it was, it's going to be very lonely. And I remember thinking that we hear that

all the time. It's lonely at the top. There's no one you can turn to. And I have to say that I never experienced that not one time. I had the great fortune of putting a wonderful team together of progressive-minded, really competent men that would serve in my command staff. And every time I didn't know what to do or I felt like something was overwhelming, I was like, all right, guys, like in the pandemic, I had to lead a department through something I'd never lived before. I didn't know what I was doing. We were sending officers out on the street, not knowing if this virus was going to kill them or not. And then I'm putting their family in harm's way.

And I'm like, you guys, I don't know what to do here. Best idea wins. And I think a lot of leaders don't feel like they can turn to their people and go, I don't know the answer. And I turned to my department and said those words. I was like, I don't know what to do. And it turns out the best ideas came from patrol from our union board that decided to change the hours, our officers work just to give them more downtime in case they did get exposed. And so I think because I realized that I don't know or don't have all the answers, that asking for help, honestly,

I never felt like, you know, like no one would catch me, you know, just in that whole scenario of trust, you know, it's like you fall backwards and no one's there to catch you. I never felt that. I felt like every time I fell backwards and asked for help. So that was the best thing that happened is the chief. The hardest part was the critique, you know, every time you make a decision and, you know, people are going to shit talk you. And I got really good at the imagery of the man in the arena. And it's like, I'm the one standing in the arena, right? And I'm making these decisions. And you're sitting in the cheap seats and, you know, you're criticizing when you don't even have the balls to stand in this arena. And so I learned really quickly that as long as you're

as I was making the right decisions for my organization for the right reasons and at the right time, you can point and laugh or criticize, ridicule all you want. So I got real comfortable with a lot of criticism as long as I knew that they were going through those three gates. Did you spend time as deputy chief or did you skip that? No, we didn't have a deputy chief when I was a commander. That position was not even there. And then when I became chief, the mayor allowed me to create that position. Oh, okay. Yeah, so I picked a deputy chief that was awesome.

So the mayor picked you for chief. That's how it works. So the chief is appointed by the mayor and fortunately the mayor did not go outside. Like you'll see a lot of national searches for a police chief. That happened in our town too. And two schools of thought on that. You know, one is do we do we have a bench that, you know, a succession plan? Are there people in your department that, you know, can readily stand into that role as

chief. And I genuinely think that if you are the chief, if you're in any organization, if you're in a position of leadership, your job is to build a bench so that the next person who's choosing the mayor, the council, whoever it may be, can look at that and go, wow, man, we've got a lot of people to choose from that will be awesome. But there's a lot of departments and there's a lot of leaders and departments that don't build their bench because they don't want to bring people up. You know, they just like to hoard information and their ego gets involved and it's like the less you know the better. And to me, I never thought that way. But our mayor stayed inside and he felt that there were a lot of people that could fill that role. And so he just said, whoever's interested,

apply. And I applied. And like it said, at that time, I was confident. And, you know, I was, like, I was ready. And I was in my second master's program. And, you know, I was even more competent in my ability. And he put us through a process and he did a survey. I think the hardest part for me was having to keep a secret for so long because the mayor told me he's like, I'm not going to announce this, you know, for a while. He's like, but, you know, the survey results from the department came in and after the interviews. And so I had to keep a lid on that, not tell anybody that I was chosen for a while, but that was, you know, a great gift from from him that he chose me. I wonder what the numbers look like of who lasts longer in a chief position, whether it's someone taken from the outside versus someone hired internally.

That's a great question. And you know, and you have to look at what your goals are. Do you want to be a transformational, like do you want to have a transformational leader come in? Like, are you so, you know, bothered by the traditional or the same status quo? And then you get somebody to come in and shake things up for a little bit. Those kind of leaders that are considered transformation. they don't last long. They come in for a couple years, try to write the ship, and then typically bounce, you know, like, and plus their job is to build the bench. Like, we'll find somebody on the inside. But I don't know the statistics. I'd have to look up that research to see who lasts longer. Isn't it amazing how important timing is to, I mean, if that chief before you didn't leave and if that mayor didn't come on and have that mindset and an election determined, if he was, if he would be mayor, It's just so many things have to fall on the place at the right time. Oh, and especially in city government because unlike, you know, a CEO of an organization that is really only bound by a board of directors, right?

But the political wins shift all the time. So you'll have a mayor that brings in a police chief. And then, you know, if you're that police chief that comes in like, you know, if the mayor's got two years left in their term, then a new mayor is coming in. Well, it's a risk. And that's what I was told. They were like, you are going to come in when mayor one is. leaving and a new mayor is coming in, that's a risk. And I was like, it's a risk I'm willing to take. I was pretty confident in my resume. And I thought if the next mayor bounces me, then I will go

get a job somewhere else. I'll, you know, apply for a chief's job somewhere. So, but you're, you're genuinely at the political whims of a city manager or a mayor. And it's a, it's a very dangerous position to be in, which is also why people advise me, like, you shouldn't be a chief until you can retire until you're 50 because then you're at you fall into the political whims. Well, I was very young when I became the chief. I was 43. So that meant if the next mayor came in and bounced me, I couldn't even collect my pension yet. So I would be leaving without a paycheck. And I still was confident. And I, and I thought still, I'm not going to bend to political will. And I'm not going to do anything that isn't outside of, you know, my, you know, alignment with my morals and integrity. Do you think a police chief should

be hired by a mayor or do you think that creates political issues? I think it creates political issues, but I don't really know the alternative because everyone has a boss, you know? I mean, a mayor oversees city, which has division heads. And it just so happens that public safety is a division head, just like, you know, water and sewer and transportation. And so, you know, I don't know who would put that position in. And, you know, hey, that's why there's sheriffs, like sheriffs are elected, you know, But there's a danger in that too because there's some sheriffs out there I know that are like, I'm elected. I can do whatever I want. You know, it's like the people have spoken.

They can't get rid of me. So I think there's a certain accountability measure. But what I worry about is just weak leadership in government, you know, that's weak leadership that maybe will fire a chief as a scapegoat when, you know, there's a bigger problem at hand. And the chief didn't do anything wrong. But it's like we have to make an example out of someone. And that's just weak leadership on part of city mayor. If you thought there was a bigger problem in the department, would you have not taken the chief's position? No, I would have. I think, I mean, I can answer your question by telling you this. I applied for the Chicago Police Department's position as their superintendent. And this was in 2020 when I became or when I was the chief. I got a phone call saying that the position was going to open in Chicago. You talk about problems. I mean, Chicago had many.

many problems, understatement. And I remember thinking, can I tackle those? You know, am I, like, do I have the capacity to do it? And I remember thinking, like, I just want to sink my teeth into that department. I just, there are so many great officers there. I want that job so much, but it probably would have killed me. But I didn't get it. I made it to the final two. So I'm the winner at losing. But so to answer your question, no, I was like, I love solving problems. And, you know, that was one of the things I did as chief when I came in. There were so many things that we just needed to fix our policy and just culture. And there were so many systems and processes that were broken that had just been stagnant. And I guess just the way I think is like I'm always looking

kind of like what's the worst thing that could happen. And that means we've got a lot of work to do because there's a lot of bad stuff that can happen that we need to fix. What year did you become chief? 2016. So you had three years on before the mass shooting happened in 2019? Yeah. And so that was, You know, people say things like this when they introduce me. I'm a keynote speaker these days and they'll say she led her department through a mass shooting and that's complete bullshit. I did one thing and I will take credit for this and this only. In 2016, when I became chief, we were sitting with my patrol, I'm sorry, with my SWAT lieutenant and the commander overseeing training and SWAT. And we started talking about what's the worst thing that could happen? I asked them. I was like, what's the worst thing that could happen, right? Let's spitball. And we started talking about it, mass shooting, a terrorist attack, you know, and we just, like, started using our imagination. And my next question was, are we prepared for any of these things? And the SWAT lieutenant looked at me and he said, absolutely not. He said, our equipment is expired for SWAT.

He said, we lack the training that we need. We want to add another training day. The technology were behind. And I was like, what? And then on the street, we didn't have ballistic shields. and we didn't have like all of these things. So I said, do me a favor. Make me a list of a utopia.

Everything that you think we need. And it was like explosive breaching, nine bangs. It was like all these equipment. And that was not my trajectory in the police department. I was, you know, detective community policing. I was never in SWAT. I was never on that like tactical trajectory. So I don't know what I didn't know.

So I relied on those guys to tell me what we needed. And I said, just do me this. Write me a list of everything. shoot for the stars and then demo everything to me. And so they would take me, we got like these explosive breaching equipment. And it's exactly what you think it is. Like they blow up shit. And I remember going to a demo and watching them like they just, you know, they place these and the whole door blows off. And every time after that, every time there was a SWAT call out, I was like, are we going to blow it up? And they're like, chief, we don't need to blow it, blow it up.

That's why I could never be in charge of any of that because I would blow, I would blow up everything. And so anyway, these guys gave me all the demos, taught me what we needed. And it was my job as chief to fight for that stuff from our city government, from city council. And that was a tough sell because it costs a lot of money. But I did the whole, what's the worst thing that could happen? And no, we are not prepared. Do we want to stand up in front of this podium later and say, we were told we needed these things and we didn't get them for our officers? Or do we want to stand there and go, hey, we trained, we prepared?

and, you know, we did the very best we could. And thankfully, I had a very supportive city council and they got us everything we needed. So from 2016 through 2019, we got prepared. We started utilizing all of that equipment, got it little by little, more training, all of that. It was just such an emphasis on what's the worst thing that could happen. And then it happened, you know, kind of to your point, did you ever think it was going to happen here? I was like, yeah, I know it's coming. February 15th, 2019 worst day in my professional life. I was sitting in an office with another commander and it's 124 in the afternoon and another commander runs in. He's like, are you guys listening to the radio? And we weren't. He was actually telling me his lemon caper recipe that he had just cooked last

night. And it was a Friday afternoon. You know, we're just yucking it up. And he goes, we've got to, we have an active shooter. And I was like, wait, what? In those words, like the weirdest thing. It's like they just hung in the air and it felt like forever, but it was only seconds and we were stumbling, you know, over each other. And as I'm on the way to the scene, there's the three of us in the car. I'm hanging on to the oh shit strap in the squad car. And I hear Officer Gomez's shot. I hear another officer shot one by one. The officers are shot. They found five people dead. And I'm like taking this in and I'm thinking this is a movie. This is like a straight up movie. I'm I'm this is not real and that day those officers one by one got shot trying to stop the shooter he was on

the mission to go shoot more people he'd already killed five he was walking around but those officers did not retreat they didn't I mean you talk about like you know the opposite of what's happened in other jurisdictions where people wait outside and don't do anything and they one by one got shot and they stopped that shooter from killing more people so It was as a result. I mean, in that day, I was in the command post. I was safe. I was not on the front lines.

That's why I led my department through mass shootings. Bullshit. They did. They were absolutely remarkable. Those are the heroes from that day. And all I did was try to prepare for it when I became chief. And like I said, that's the only thing I'll take credit for. But that day changed all of us.

What do you do when you first get onto a scene like that? Manage resources. So the first mission when you get on the scene is to stop the shooting. stop the bleeding. And so that's the first order of business. This guy was actively shooting. Our officers were getting shot. So it's not only stop the shooting, stop the bleeding, it's also tending to our people that are shot, right? And so you can't get ambos in there because gunfire is happening. And so you can't bring any medics in. So we started throwing officers in squad cars and getting them to the hospital. But the biggest, the number one thing is

to tend to the bleeding, you know, try to find them and to stop the shooter. And, that's the mission and it's twofold. And so that's everything that I did on that day was just trying to manage resources to get more SWAT teams in to go find the shooter and to get medics close by to get, you know, when we found them in the building to see if there were anybody who could sustain their injuries to work in tandem with the fire chief who oversees the medics and, you know, sending our officers in along with medics to go in and triop. people who were hurt. So that's it. Your only two missions is to stop the shooter, stop the bleeding. As a leader, how do you hold back yourself that will to want to run in with your team?

It's funny that you asked that because that was the hardest thing is that we originally ran towards the scene. When we were driving, we pulled up right to the warehouse where it was taking place. And it was like this moment of like synchronicity where we all looked at each other and we were like, this is not our function. So like the commander that was with me, he's the SWAT commander. So his function was to oversee the SWAT team who was on the way. My function as the chief is incident command, which means I need to be away from the scene because I have to have the objectivity and the clear mind to call the shots from the outside looking in. And then I have to rely on that SWAT lieutenant who was right there on the inner perimeter to tell me, we need another SWAT team,

bring, send, roll them in. And so I, our jobs were vastly different. That, day. But because I came up in the department and that's the training, my first instinct was to just go right to the scene. And I had to remind myself that it's not my job today. When you make decisions on a scene like that, are you second guessing yourself or are you just calling them as they come to mind? Calling. It's literally, this is the moment that you train for. It's like a lot of times we have the, we're afforded the ability to make decisions by saying, hey, can you get me a little more information on that before I make this decision? And, you know, you should spend your time in times of peace doing that as like, don't make a decision. You don't have to

make a decision fast. You know, it's condiments work thinking fast and slow. Sometimes you've got some time. Go get the research, get some feedback, and make the decision. These are not those moments. These are where you just rely on everything that you have learned, everything that you know, and the information with what you have. That's it. And sometimes that information is wrong. You know, we're like, we learned on the scene that there may be a second shooter because someone left at a high rate of speed. And so we thought, remember, one shooter, there's two.

And so we locked down all the schools. Well, it turns out it was a guy who was shot by the shooter. And he flagged down a car and a Good Samaritan scooped him up. And that was the car leaving, you know, but we were like, that's a shooter. But that's the information we had at the moment. And then we get a call hours later from the hospital saying, hey, I have another victim here. But you don't have time to be like, hey, you know, let's get a, you know, everybody, give me your feedback.

It's just call the freaking shots. And then if you call a wrong one, stop, pivot, and make the right one with new information. Do you think that's something that the public, politicians, people in higher authority, don't understand when they look back on these incidents? Thousand percent. Because it's easy to arm your quarterback something. It all is easy to go, why didn't you do that? And in the moment, you know, and then to add gunfire on top. top of it where, you know, people are actually getting killed, then, you know, it makes it a little more

complicated, you know, when most people don't realize that these decisions have to be made in this moment, you know, the moment of truth and choice. And so I think it's really easy for people to connect the dots backwards and to go, you should have done this or why didn't you do this. And there's a time and a place for that. And we answered to that. I mean, I called in FEMA and I said, here it is. Here's our incident. Here's what we did. Interview everyone. I wanted someone objective to tell us what we did right and what we did wrong. And so there's a time and a place to question that. And then it's our job to look at this report and say, that's absolutely right. Now we need to fix the things that we got wrong. How long were you at that scene, though? Oh my God. Well, I mean, the shooting happened at 1.24 in the afternoon. And it took us 90 minutes to find the shooter and the shooter opened fire on our officers. They ended up killing him. So the interesting part after that is that, and this is what I didn't anticipate, you know, kind of like, you just don't know what you don't know, is the shooter is now dead, which means, okay, the incident is over, right? It's an incident. And it's, it's an incident. And it's, you know, It's over now.

We have to tend to those who are injured. But, you know, bad guy, bad guy is not harming anyone, right? And so you think in that moment, okay, you can breathe for a second. And then I was told Governor Pritzker is on the way in the black helicopter. And he wants to meet with you immediately and you need to do a press conference. And so I'm going from, you know, active shooter, you know, to all of this to my officers are in the hospital. I don't know whether they're going to live or die at this point because we had no status on their injuries because they got thrown in squad cars. One got shot in the neck. And I thought, I mean,

and one got shot in the eye. I was like, I don't even know. And so I just said, stop. I appreciate that the governor is coming. But I need to find out the status of my officers first. And I'm not, I'm not being rushed anywhere until I find that out. And so it's like once the scene is secure and the incident comes to a close, well, then there's just a whole other, it's just, then there's more craziness that happens. And that craziness didn't stop for days because I had to, I didn't sleep for days like many people. But I had to meet with the victim's families first thing the next morning. And no one prepares you for that. That was the hardest thing I've ever had to do in my entire professional life. You know, our role was to tell them about the investigation. You know, it's still an investigation,

a criminal investigation, even though the shooter is dead. And then give them back their loved ones belongings, their cell phone and all the things that were, you know, in their office or cubicle. And it was absolutely devastating. And then a prayer vigil the next day. And then, you know, fundraiser. It just, it didn't stop. How do you return to your own normal life after an incident like that or even just your daily duties as chief? You know, while you're making the assumption that it has happened. So it took a really long time. And, you know, because the physical wounds started to heal, but the emotional ones are ongoing. And so we made it very anniversaries matter. So like, you know, a month after the shooting, we made sure that we had

mental health professionals in to talk with officers because even though these officers we knew we're going to make it, there was still a lot of people who were very traumatized by this event. And I had an officer show up at my house on the Saturday night after it happened with his wife. And he had a bottle of bourbon in his hand. And he was one of the ones who was on, like, he was the only one of the two that didn't get shot, one of the two that didn't get shot when all those officers were shot. And he tended to one of them that got shot. And he was having trouble coping because he felt like, wait, it should have been me, right? And you just, in those moments, You just do everything that is necessary to try to get people through it.

And that night just resonates with me because, you know, it's like when your officer shows up at your house with a bottle of bourbon, you sit and you drink that bourbon with him. I mean, and that's exactly, and he cried. And at that point, I couldn't cry yet. I hadn't broke down still a little bit of my dad and me because I was trying to take care of all of my officers. And then, you know, a month went by. And we were like, okay, let's check in with everybody, you know. and also keep, you know, keep in contact with the victim's families, you know, even though they weren't part of our police family, they were part of our community, you know? And then it did get to a

point where an officer said to me, you know what I would love? I would just love for a day to go by where I don't have to talk about this shooting anymore. And that was like, I think we're ready to heal. And I think that was maybe about six months in where we will never forget, but now we've got to move on. and we have to, you know, and I remember taking that to heart thinking, am I harming them? Because I just kept saying, we got to keep talking about it, you know, like we have to just, I want to make sure everybody makes it through this okay. And, you know, and then, you know, and then awards came and, you know, it's like there's just still so much. And finally, when that officer said that, I thought, okay, that means it's time to just start, you know, healing from this

and moving forward. Who helps you in a moment like that? How do you heal? Oh, that's where I think for everything that all of the talk that I gave, I was a chief who came in and decided mental health as a priority because we had had an officer commit suicide and we had an officer attempt suicide. And that second officer that attempted suicide did all the right things. He had the gun to his head and he made one phone call that night, late night. And he told himself, if someone answers the phone, this person I'm calling, if they answer the phone, then I won't do it. it. And it just so happened. It was his sister-in-law who was up studying late for a test, and she answered the phone. Thank God. And so I came into the chief's position with that in mind where this guy did everything he was supposed to. He checked himself into a facility. He got better. And he still had trouble getting his gun and badge back because of the way the law works. And I made it my mission that we have to fix this. So I got mental health professionals set up at the ready. I got an app on every police officer's phone.

We gave everyone a cell phone. And on that phone is an app called We Never Walk Alone. And they can hit that app when they're in crisis. And they will either be connected with a peer officer who's trained in this or a mental health professional. They get to choose. And they can do it completely anonymous. And so we did all of that. So I walked, I talked to the talk and I got everything for my officers.

And then this shooting happened. And I would not let myself fall apart. I just didn't because I thought I can't. This is my job. This is, you know, as my dad said, you know, it's like you can't ever let them see you weak. And so I thought I have to be strong. And it happened weeks later. Like I felt like I was like, I'm good.

As long as my officers are good, I'm good. That was a story I told myself and that I actually think I believed in that moment. My son, this is, so let me back up in one of the five people who were killed. was a 21-year-old. He was working at this manufacturing plant. It was his first day on the job as an intern, and he got killed by the shooter. And he was 21 years old, just about to graduate from Northern Illinois University. My son was just about the same age. My son was at college. And I, it's like weeks go by. And then I, like, I see that, or I try to call my son. I just, like, he was at college. And I just called him and it went to voice.

And something happened. And I just like, I'm like, he's not answering. Like, like, you know, is something wrong? And so I, I literally like a crazy woman. I just kept calling. I just kept calling. And he calls me back five minutes later. And he goes, mom, what are you doing? He's like, I'm in class. I had to step out. What's wrong? And I'm like, I just had to hear your voice. And I was standing in my closet. And I, I just collapsed. I just, like, once I heard his voice and him rightly making fun of me for calling him 12 times, um, actually. And I just had to hear him 12 times. Um, I knew then I was not okay. And so it was in that moment that I was like, okay, maybe I need to talk to someone. But you know, and I have a great support system. But I just was stoic. I was just like, I'm like, I'm a badass. I'm just, I'm here to take care of my people. And what bullshit?

Because I mean, I literally fell apart. And I think if I would have, you know, taken better care of my mental health, I think I probably would have not done that. A year after that COVID hits. And how did that affect you? After COVID. Well, after COVID hit, then the civil unrest happened. So COVID was interesting because at the first, at the onset of COVID, again, we didn't know what we were doing. And we also didn't know whether this virus was going to kill us all because it was so new. And so I was trying to lead through a thing I'd never, you know, lived through. I had no idea what to expect. None of us did. Well, then we started to figure it out, right? We started to do the PPE. You know, we got those, the those N95 masks.

And then we did the six-foot distancing. And then, you know, and then, you know, all the events were canceled, you know, but it was like, okay, we started to figure it out, right? And we started to, you know, officers went solo to calls, which, you know, typical, but they, you know, maintain their distance. And so we started to figure it out. And we did. Just like everything that happens, every crisis, we start to figure it out.

Well, but that's when George Floyd happened. So I felt like with the shooting, the pandemic and George Floyd, the civil unrest, I felt like I'd been a punching bag for three years. Like I felt like I had not had eight hours of sleep in three years. And so a good leader never leaves through in the middle of a crisis. And so I waited for the dust to settle. And then I got the hell out of there. And I retired at the end of 2021.

How did you feel about the George Floyd? Oh, I was. I knew that this was a moment of reckoning for our, for law enforcement. And, you know, I make this joke because like, nobody would say anything. And that's the thing about law enforcement is like you're real careful not to criticize another police officer. You know, you don't want to arm to her quarterback something. And we do this thing where we're like, we're going to wait for all the facts, except that I saw what happened. You know what I mean? Like I'm like, I saw what happened. And regardless, you can say

a million things about, you know, whether that was a bad dude and whether he was on drugs or what. But I know, I saw what that police officer didn't. It wasn't in line with policy, you know. And so, you know, My Twitter, this is when before it was, it's, before it's the dumpster fire of X. But Twitter was just like a place where, you know, I go. I had a lot of followers on Twitter. And I, you know, I was like so brave, you know, and I'm like, I'm like, this is bullshit. Like if anybody who has seen this, we saw what happened. And so I was kind of defiant about my profession.

And I stand by that to this day. I think that, you know, when police officers are right, I will stand with them. I mean, and defend, I will stand with them vehemently. But when they are wrong, we have to part with them. And so I was conflicted about my profession, as I said, starting it with, you know, Rodney King and ending it with George Floyd. It was these two bookends. And it was just crazy. And but I knew that that's not how we train our police officers.

It's not what we do in our defensive tactics. And, you know, and so there had to be a reckoning. Do you feel that protesters took things too far? Absolutely. I mean, I have zero tolerance for protesters that destroy things. I mean, to me, you know, if you have a message to send, you do so peacefully. That's exactly why we are allowed to protest. That is our First Amendment right. And it is why, you know, we are a democracy and it's what makes us the United States of America. But the minute that you start to loot and you start to become violent, then I, and to me, that drowns the message, you know, is like, I understand what you're fighting for, you know. But the minute that it's, you know, but the minute that it's, becomes violent or that you break the law, you know, to me, then your credibility is gone. And I, I feel very strongly about that. Were you still there to help rebuild community ties with police? Yeah. In fact, you know, we, I mean, we stood through the protests and, you know, people,

I mean, people were calling on me to, you know, Chief Zeman must go. And I was like, wait, why? What did I do? You know, our whole department kind of felt like that. And that was actually, like, I joke about it now, but it was, it broke my heart into a million pieces. where I was like, first of all, the people who are protesting in our, you know, in our city, they're not even from here, you know, like they came from Chicago and, you know, I'm like, what are you doing? But there were also a lot of people in our city that, you know, right in the, you know, the early hours of that that just hated us immediately.

They were like, you guys all suck. And I'm like, but you're painting us all with a broad brush. And that was the hardest thing. And I lost some police officers just by resignation who came into my office and said, And they were like not ready to retire or didn't have the time in, but they were like, you know, on the cusp. And one guy gave me its badge. And he's like, I can handle a lot of things, but being called, you know, a racist is not one of them. He's like, I've never in my career done anything that wasn't, you know, that was outside of the law or policy. And he's like, and every time I walk out, you know, people are like, you're a racist. He's like, what are you talking about?

And I lost some good officers to that. And that breaks my heart, right? So that was, if you asked me to pick one, the mass shooting or that, I don't know what broke my heart more. And it was just the hardest thing to do was rebuild, but I understood. I understood, but it still pissed me off that, you know, how people say, you know, facts don't matter. It's just how people feel. And I understand that, except that when I was like trying to tout facts, I was like, our police department has hardly any complaints against officers, you know? And I'm like, and most of the complaints generated in my police department against our officers were supervisor generated, which means

we police ourselves. There was such a low percentage. And I'm, and I'm like standing in the middle of these protests going, look, we didn't do any of this, you know? And it didn't matter. People still hated us. And so I was so mad. I was like, why aren't people listening to the facts, you know? And I understand emotion just takes over and they just need someone to hate and take it out on. But that was hard to absorb. Like that almost broke me. And then the pendulum started to shift. And we saw this in Seattle when they decided, you know, no, we hate cops and, you know,

we're going to abolish the police and, you know, like defund the police. And I just thought that was absurd, you know. And first of all, I'd been saying, yeah, you should defund the police because we're handling substance abuse, homelessness, you name it, you know, when kids don't show up at school, whatever. Like, we're handling all that. I'd love for you to defund us and to put those social services in action to deal with the things that people call us for, right?

And so I just thought that was a, they didn't think that through. I'm like, we've been calling for that for years. But we saw what happened when the police were taken out of, you know, Seattle. And it was lawlessness. It was, you know, it doesn't work. So then people were like, oh, wait, maybe we need the police. And so the pendulum started to shift. And that's where I think we are now is, you know, people very much appreciate law enforcement again when it is built on the principles of trust and integrity.

And so when the community believes in them, because it cannot exist without that. Why do you think there's some people that no matter what they just label all the cops the same and hate them so much? I see, you know, some comments on Facebook. And even when I promote law enforcement stories, there's some that just can't get past it. Yeah. I think it's just anti-intellectualism. I think it's just globbing on to, you know, a narrative, an identity. And it's happened to me.

I mean, I, you know, just even in retirement, you know, like people, you know, on my Facebook page, you know, it says, you know, former police officer and, you know, and someone wrote ACAB. And I was like, you don't even fucking know me. Like, what are you talking about? But I think that shit. People, it's, to me, it's the most anti-intellectual, which you. just is a nice way of saying they're fucking idiots. Like, just how about you, how about you maybe go on a ride along with a cop? How about maybe you sit down and have a conversation?

I don't condone getting locked in a jail cell for a hundred days with a cop like you did. But hey, that worked out great too. But you, you know, you probably saw the humanity of that guy when you were with him. You know, it doesn't take long for the uniform to, you know, like to stop clouding you. And you're like, this is a dude. This is a dude that loves his family. and is like, you know, just drawn to this profession. And man, you know, we could do that on both sides, too.

So, like, you know, we could most certainly give people some grace, especially for, you know, having made mistakes. God damn, we can't judge people by the worst day in their life on any side of the equation. But the differences, in my humble opinion, is that police officers have to be held to a higher standard because we have the power and the authority to take away someone's rights. We have the power and authority. to take a life if, of course, the circumstances, you know, present itself and if it is in alignment with the Constitution of the United States. So we have a greater responsibility. But those people who

just broad brush everything, I'm like, maybe educate yourself, maybe put yourself out there, maybe go have a conversation, go on a ride along. How long were you on the force for when you retired? I was there for 30 years. What does 30 years and one day feel like afterwards once you retire? I had an identity crisis because, well, first of all, you know, I'd worn a uniform my whole life. So now I had to figure out like what I was actually going to wear. That was the hardest thing. But it's genuinely, it's like I've been a cop since, you know, I'm 17. I've worn a uniform for that many years, for 30 years.

And the identity that comes with being a police officer, it's kind of like full circle, what I mentioned earlier. It's like you become a part of this team, this club, this tribe. And it becomes who you are. It becomes your identity. It's the way that you see the world and it's the way the world sees you. And when you are stripped of that, I was like, I don't know what to do. I felt like even though I was still staying busy and started getting, I wrote my book and started, you know, getting book to speak. I still was like without the uniform, will anyone take me seriously?

Like, you know, and people who still call me chief. It's still, I'm just like, wow, that's crazy. You know, like that title is gone. And, and, and I think that's where we really have to separate ourselves from this, you know, this identity that we have built. It's, for one, it's what keeps people too long in the profession. I mean, there are police officers and chiefs in the profession that should have gone like 10 years ago, you know, but they can't. They can't imagine their life without that title or without that uniform, without that badge. And that's a dangerous thing to be. So I just had to work through it. And time was the thing that helped me work through it. And what I started to realize is it's kind of cool on the other side.

Like, first of all, much less stress, you know. I get to pick and choose the projects. You know, that's when I joined the DOJ team to do the Evalde Review. And I get to, you know, consult and coach and go deliver keynotes, which, you know, have a greater impact. But it was an evolution of just trying to fight through it of like, I'm not a cop anymore. Are you enjoying life now? do you feel at peace? Love it. Absolutely love it. The freedom that comes, and a police officer told me the other day, which is something that really made me think. But I was standing on a stage and delivering a

keynote. And, you know, I talk in my keynotes about, they're called moments of reckoning. And it's in your personal life and your professional life. And these moments of reckoning are when you go from blind to aware, like a disruption happens in your life. And you are suddenly aware. And now you're standing at this moment of reckoning. And it's this moment of truth and choice where you have to decide what you're going to do. And if you do nothing, you're moving towards a crisis. So it's like this gauge, blind, aware, moment of reckoning. And on the other end, in the red is danger. It's crisis. And in this moment of reckoning, we have to make decisions that are going to move us away from crisis. It's accountability. It's action. And, you know, I finished this keynote. And this guy walked

to me and he was retired. It was actually not a law enforcement conference, but a security conference for major corporations, but he'd been a cop. And he said, do you ever feel like you want to throw your name in the hat for a chief? And I was like, sometimes I get the itch. Like, you know, I just saw Kansas City just opened up, you know, and I'm like, ooh, that would be a cool city. And then, you know, and then the feeling passes because I'm like, oh, God, no, I don't want to do that. But he said, I think you're making more impact on the stages and you're touching more lives here than you would in one police department. And that, like, that got me, man. I was like, okay, that feels very purposeful. And so I'm reminded of how lucky I am that people invite me to

speak at their conferences and to talk about my failures and my successes. And it's a really cool thing. What would you tell your 17-year-old self if you could sit across from her right now? I would tell her that you need to stop wasting so much time on what people think. I think the greatest affliction that we have in our lives is we are so worried about here's the imagery again of the people in the cheap seats, man. And it's worse now because of social media. But I was always just so worried about, you know, just my image, my reputation. And, you know, if I did become a disruptor and say something that maybe wasn't popular, like amongst my patrol officers, if I went like, you guys, the policy really isn't that bad. Stop whining about it, right?

if I said that, would I be ostracized? Would I be tossed into the outgroup? And it took me a really long time to find my voice and to get comfortable with people not liking me because every one of us wants to be liked. And then the criticism starts coming. And then, of course, the higher you move up in an organization, people start criticizing you because they want that job. And so suddenly they're, you know, the false accusations. And I would have told my 17-year-old self that honestly, don't give a fuck what anyone says, but I spent, I wasted way too much time caring. And this is the nice part about now being in my 50s is that, I mean, it's been the evolution. But man, I just don't care. Like I said, if you're not standing in the arena with me, then I, in fact, there's this thing

that I think I would have said to my 17 year old self that I apply now. And this is for everyone, is that when someone criticizes you, you know, like I said, criticize them. Criticism when it comes from a sincere place of caring. But if somebody says something to me, and it's a person that I would never trade places with in life, you know, if I don't respect them and I don't give a shit about what they say. And so that, I think, would have served me well in my younger years as I think it would serve everyone in life. Well, Kristen, I appreciate you taking the time to come out here and come on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, I really enjoyed this conversation. Me too. Thanks.