Locked In with Ian Bick - I Used & Sold Heroin — Then Ended Up In An Ohio Prison | Edward English

Episode Date: November 25, 2025

Edward English grew up between Houston and Ohio in a turbulent home marked by an absent father and an abusive stepfather. Put on Ritalin from ages 7 to 17, he struggled with confidence and identity �� eventually turning to drugs as a way to escape. What started as experimentation spiraled into an eight-year heroin addiction that led to his arrest in 2011 for possession, distribution, and trafficking. Sentenced to nearly eight years in prison, Edward served 4.5 before being released in 2016. Behind bars, everything changed. Through faith, mentorship, and personal growth programs, he transformed his mindset and rebuilt his life from the inside out — a journey he documents in his memoir Emersion. Today, Edward is 14 years clean, a husband, father, and commercial plumber in Columbus, Ohio, dedicated to helping others overcome addiction and find purpose after prison. His story is one of pain, perseverance, and the power of true transformation. #LockedInWithIanBick #PrisonStories #TrueCrime #AddictionRecovery #HeroinAddiction #OhioPrison #RedemptionStory #realstories Thank you to DAWS for sponsoring this episode: Go to http://www.daws.org/ to donate, adopt or send items from their wishlist. Connect with Edward English: Facebook: Edward Lee English TikTok: @emersion589 Instagram: @emersion589 Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro, Awkward Moments & Setting the Stage 00:36 – Host Announcements & Welcoming Lee 01:01 – Lee’s Childhood, Family & Early Upbringing 05:51 – Trauma, Emotional Struggles & Coping as a Kid 10:26 – Turning to Drugs: Early Addiction & First Experiences 13:41 – High School Achievements, Pressure & Fitting In 17:05 – Life After High School: Work, College & Substance Use 19:42 – College Years: Addiction Deepens & Escalation Begins 24:01 – Rock Bottom: Mugging, Desperation & Collapse 28:28 – Moving Back Home & Falling Into Old Patterns 32:40 – Heroin Addiction Intensifies & Selling to Survive 37:29 – Survivor’s Guilt, Dealing Drugs & Losing Control 43:41 – Spiritual Turning Point, Arrest & Reality Check 47:31 – Jail, Detox & The Mental Shift Toward Change 51:42 – Facing Trial, Sentencing & Harsh Consequences 56:07 – Family Impact, Regret & Self-Reflection Before Prison 01:00:32 – Prison Intake, Processing & First Impressions 01:05:05 – Prison Conditions, Programs & Daily Reality 01:10:10 – Marion Correctional: Adjusting, Programs & Growth 01:15:01 – Awkward Encounters, Prison Dynamics & Conflict 01:19:40 – Mentors, Guidance & Using Resources to Change 01:24:01 – Therapy, Recovery Work & Rebuilding the Mind 01:28:01 – Life Lessons, Release Preparation & Reentry 01:32:26 – Starting Over: Building a New Life & True Change 01:36:00 – Family, Healing Generational Trauma & Reflection 01:41:30 – Parenthood, Patience & Giving Back Through Kindness 01:43:07 – Hope, Redemption & Final Thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Edward English spent nearly eight years addicted to heroin, a journey that took him from Houston to an Ohio prison. But behind bars, everything changed. He found faith, mentors, and a new purpose that helped him rebuild his life from the inside out. 14 years clean, a husband and a father today. This is how he turned prison into transformation. Also, everyone, we are having a huge Black Friday sale this coming Friday. The day after Thanksgiving, my whole locked-in store available at Embic.com is 50% off.

So you could get a signed figure, which comes with wristbands and bracelets for 50% off. And you can also get a hoodie and hats for 50% off. Go check it out. Lee, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today. Yeah, thanks, Ian. I appreciate this opportunity, man. Yeah, I appreciate you reaching out.

You're just telling me the story about how when you reached out, you never thought we'd respond. And now here we are. Yeah, it's kind of surreal, you know, I was just like up until this moment of reaching out to you, I didn't even know who you were. I just found a short on TikTok. And I was like, man, I got to give this guy his credit where credits do because nobody really wants to talk about awkward experiences in prison. And here I am writing a book and it's talking about change and stuff. And, you know, come full circle. You know what it's like coming home. And you've got this podcast and stuff. And I'm like, hey, man. I'm writing a book and, you know, I just appreciate the invite. Yeah, and we have the book right here today. You gave me a copy. I love when the guests bring me a book and then always write something.

I got a nice shelf there where I've been displaying all of them. It's really cool. If you want to tell the audience about this. Yeah, so as complex as my life was, it's pretty simple. You know, I just wanted to document my journey. I had a rough childhood upbringing, subjected to, you know, childhood traumas from a stepfather. an absent father, emotional, mental, physical abuse, and it led to addiction. Ultimately, I ended up in prison.

But that's where the journey kind of took its turn. I utilized prison to change my life. And, you know, just conveying what positive change looks like is something that was really important. But, you know, I'm straight to the point. It's gritty. It's raw about my addiction, the emotional, psychological of that addiction as well. And, you know, I just think that stories like that really don't get as much coverage as, you know, the nasty where people don't really change, you know. So there's kind of like a collection between the two with, you know, a brighter outlook on the end of it. Where do you grow uply?

Northwestern Ohio. I was born in Houston, though. My mother's from Ohio. So when things didn't work out, ultimately, my mother moved my family back up to Ohio. And, you know, that's, that in itself was a culture shock. I was used to Houston and the hustle and bustle and getting moved up this way and it's cornfields. And it was definitely a change. But, you know, when I talk about my childhood with the abuse from my stepfather, my mother as a single parent, when she did move up this way to get away from all that, you know, you're raised with the trust. and understanding that the doctors are there for you, trust the police and trust the banks and things like that. So as a child, I didn't really know how to articulate what was going on in my life, the anguish, the emotional, distraught feelings and stuff. So there were behavioral issues

on my end. The doctors put me on Ritalin. And so in the process of this and moving to Ohio, there was an issue that was never really resolved. And so it just became feeling my situation out with the doctors. Well, we'll up his prescription. We'll give it to him twice a day. Well, then now we're going to go to three times a day. So there was this adjustment that naturally didn't really happen for me that should have because of the Ritalin,

not feeling like I belonged and fitting in and the adjustments with the medication as well. So there was just a lot of, you know, hard times within my family's dynamics that just weren't really getting addressed. And ultimately, you know, it led me into drugs. Not to say like I didn't have like a good childhood. I did, but it could have been better, you know. know. What was your favorite memory from childhood before the addiction? Before the addiction, you know, that's a really good question. Um, spending time with my mother, my siblings,

you know, there were happy times, but, um, I think like, playing soccer, you know, that was, that was a good time for me until I got into the drugs, um, fishing was something that my uncle had showed me and taught me when I first moved to Ohio. It wasn't something that I did a lot in Houston. A lot of times it was just riding my bike and playing on the playgrounds and video game systems, you know, but we got up this way and, you know, there was more room to kind of like run around and be outside. How do you have described yourself character-wise before your addiction? Before my addiction, wanting to fit in as far as the character goes, I don't know. Never really thought about it too much.

I guess in a sense, kind of outgoing, but still reserved. You know, I was just trying to figure out myself, you know. The Ritalin was from age seven, so there was like this complex, you know, aspect of it all. It was still kind of blurred in a sense. Really hard to put my finger on. I just never really felt comfortable in my own skin. And, you know, I kind of gravitated towards more of the alternative group of kids growing up

versus, you know, the football players or, you know, the baseball or basketball group, you know. Were your siblings on Ritalin, too? No. Nope, they weren't. My brother did fairly well growing up. He ultimately ended up in addiction as well, but he was really good at baseball. He was more of a social outgoing kid than I was. My sister, she was more in tune to the adjustment as well because she were four years apart each,

me being the oldest. So my sister was like right there with me when, when we had this major change and moved from Texas to Ohio. My sister's dad was the one that, you know, she remembered a lot of the abuse in the house. She remembered that. And, yeah, it was just, it was just hard, man. Did your stepdad treat them the way he treated you?

Well, my brother was just a baby at the time for the most part. So he didn't really remember my father. father and all. And no, to be blunt now. My sister, she, she didn't get that. It was, it was me and my mother that got the, you know, the blunt force end of that. Why do you think your mom didn't leave him? Well, it was, it wasn't that she didn't want to. It's, you know, how do you, how do you get away from something like that, especially after multiple incidents and, you know, the returning? I think that was the, the, the, the, biggest thing for my mother was him constantly returning or the hope of wanting that change,

you know. My father, he had mental health issues as well with addiction and she left him when I was three. And so a year or so later, she met my stepfather and what seemed to have been well at first turned into a whole other, you know, beast of its own. Did you hold resentment against your mom for not leaving your stepdad? You know, early on, I would say, yeah. You know, immature, adolescent, and just not understanding how things worked. There was resentment. Yeah, absolutely.

And your actual dad, your real dad, did you ever ask about him? I did. It was kind of like, you know, lost, you know, lost in translation in a sense of, fell on deaf ears at times it felt like because she didn't have the answer. so she didn't really know where he was. It was hard, you know, carrying that and having this inner understanding or awareness that my family was different. I was different, you know, and like I said, carrying that with me growing up, trying to fit in, you know, going to friends' houses that had, you know, a structured family, not seeing it, but wanting it.

Did it make you feel like you weren't good enough? Yeah, it most definitely did, man. Some of those feelings and tied back to what I think led me into falling into drugs. I was 15 years old when I first got into drugs. It started out with pot, alcohol. I felt like there was a sense of belonging through the socialization aspect of that. And, you know, as I got older, got into high school, it was, it was. It was something that just kind of like grew into more, you know, and let into acid and cocaine.

And now it's not like I was waking up and going to class, doing a line of Coke in my car for class or whatever. But, you know, weekend situations or summers and, you know, partying. It kind of manifested into something bigger. And, you know, at the time when you're young, you feel like there's more control on what you're doing in the day. decisions you're making, but, you know, over time, there's like this compounding factor that, you know, it just continues to build up. And so ultimately, you know, in my 20s is when I got into heroin. When I got out of prison, one of the first things I did was adopt my dog boon from the Dawes Animal Welfare Society. And honestly, that moment changed my life. He was my reminder that

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ends up saving us too. Did you graduate high school? I did. I graduated high school. I was actually in the top half of my class. Even with the drug use. Even with the drug use. Perfect attendance on a roll.

I got into soccer at a pretty early age. My school didn't have a soccer team. So I was traveling to the next town over, which is about 15 minutes out. So I'm playing for a different school. I had my varsity letter in my freshman year. But it's like, could you imagine having a neighboring school's varsity letter on your letterman coat? It just, you know, so it wasn't something that I actually sported.

And so we were undefeated my freshman year. And then in my sophomore year, I played. But it kind of fell off. All the guys started getting into football and stuff. So it ended up dead in the water. I was in marching band. I was in concert band. I played the trumpet.

So I tried to find where I could fit in, kind of if that makes sense, right? But where I wanted to fit in, it just never clicked. It wasn't as organic in a sense. Like I felt like I had to apply myself to try and fit in versus just being accepted for who I am. you know so you leave high school where do you go uh left high school and um right after high school i ended up working at cedar point um one of the guys that i got close with and became a good friend with he he had the bright idea you know hey let's go work at cedar point and so never leaving a small town you know other than like houston as a kid i'm like yeah i want to get out of this town so we went to

Cedar Point. You know, we worked at Hotel Breakers and it was, it was a giant party, you know, had a blast. What is Cedar Point? Is that like a resort? Cedar Point's a resort, roller coaster, theme park. It's like a six flags in a sense, but Cedar Point is one of the largest roller coaster amusement parks in the world. And people come from all over. There's a lot of individuals that'll come over on working passports. So you've got this diverse culture of people from all over the world. A lot of individuals from Europe, you know, from different countries within Europe. And they'll stay for a work pass.

And, you know, they're trying to do the same thing, you know, make it come to America, get the American dream kind of aspect. But, you know, there's an underbelly to that. And it's wild, you know. constantly out at the bars, constantly socializing. And so from high school, Cedar Point, nothing stopped when it came to me and using and partying. What did your mom want for you for your future in your career?

You know, that's a good question. I think for the most part, she wanted the same thing as every family, every parent wants for their child. You know, it's go to college, you know. get a degree, find yourself, be successful. For me, I didn't know what I wanted to do. She was pretty insistent. I consider looking into education. I did it for a while. It just, it wasn't for me. I didn't, I didn't want to be an education, which leads into the next portion of like finding myself, right? It's like, well, if this isn't it, what do I do? Well, you know, my,

buddy that invited me to Cedar Point, he had already had it figured out. He's like, I'm going to Pittsburgh. I'm going to go to culinary. And he had his whole game plan out there. I stayed back for another year. I went back to Cedar Point, you know, and it was just as crazy. More acid, more coke, more alcohol, more weed. You know, I turned 21 up there. So my goal on life at the time, it's like, I had none. I just wanted to be 21. I wanted to buy my first keg. you know and I did you know as soon as I hit 21 called some buddies up from college and you know through a huge keg party and I'm I'm living the dream in my eyes I had no structure I had no vision I was just living in the moment and it's where I felt I I fit in the most it's where I

felt like I belonged it was that social acceptance factor that the it was the facade that was given because of my drug use and my substance abuse at the time. And so, yeah, you know, I stayed back. I went back to Cedar Point. You know, I mean, my 21st birthday, I didn't write about this situation in my book, but did a couple lines of Coke, ran out, went into the park,

went on the Magnum at the time, or no, the Millennium Force. Millennium Force is like 200 feet or, something crazy heights. And I mean, it's just a massive drop-off. So we do this Coke. We run into the line. Happenstance, we end up in the very front seats, you know.

And it's like instant heart attack for anybody if you can imagine doing cocaine, adrenaline off the roller coasters. But that was like the epitome of my time at Cedar Point for those two summers. when that ended my buddy that his name's Tony in the book he hits me up he's like hey man you know things are going good out here in Pittsburgh you know you haven't really figured out what you want to do yet you might want to think about coming out here you know we're living in downtown we're on fifth have you know just come give it a try see if it is a good fit for you you know I thought about it I looked into the Art Institute of Pittsburgh

and I got accepted. No experience at all. I didn't do any visual, any editing, nothing. But based off my grades, you know, yeah, come on down. You know, it's just the art and student ends up getting in trouble later on for false recruitment practice and for-profit kind of practices of bringing in people. So it was a whole scam on my end. I got scammed.

but you know I got a I got a degree out of it by the skin on my teeth I barely graduated from college because I had no purpose going to school and I didn't know the first thing about cables lighting nothing but they're like yeah sure come on in you know you got good grades you'd be a great candidate so I get there you know and Tony takes me in Tony's selling pot it's like this is a great fit you know I'll stay here with him I'll sell some weed. I'll go to college. He helped me get a job. It's like, what more could I ask for at the time? You know, I'm not back home, you know, doing nothing. And then I got into the dorms. And it was just, it was just fuel to the fire. You know, it's more clientele. You know, I'm not having to pay for

anything. I'm smoking for free. I'm partying with people, meeting people, I'm going to school. It was just, it was fast, you know. And then that's when my whole life changed, you know, the opiates. Tony offered me to come by and party with him at his place, you know, which we often did. But it was what happened at one of the parties that changed, you know. I didn't know, you know, my own naivety. I didn't have an education on what over. opiates were. I didn't know, like, I knew about heroin, but I didn't know the diverse of what

opiates were and how they were connected to heroin, if that makes sense. And when I tried oxycotton for the first time, it literally, it stole my soul. I write about it in my book. It's just, it's something that I couldn't let go internally. I, like, mentally obsessed about it weeks afterwards. And it finally found its place back in my lap, you know, months later. But it wasn't oxycotton. It was in the form of fentanyl. And, you know, again, if I'm going to trust the person that's offering me something, you know,

they're only going to give me the answer that I'm looking for and I didn't do I didn't do the research you know what's fentany oh it's it's like oxy it's cheaper stronger you don't have to do as much that's where it started you know I got into it and um you know it was like once a week and then it was twice week, you know, get into a relationship with a girl. They're doing it. That's how I got started and, you know, I'm selling pot and doing acid still and nothing's really changed. I mean, I'm going to school. I'm learning the best that I can, but, you know, everything just really happened so fast and, you know, before I know it, I'm staying up for days, you know, just partying. I'm high three, four times a week, several times a day. Now I'm going to class high. And, you know,

I look back on it all. A lot of it's a blur when it comes to Pittsburgh, but it wasn't easy, you know. I ended up getting a job on the north side working for Aramark. I was at the Pittsburgh Stadium, Pittsburgh Steelers. And, um, I was. you know, that was every home game I would work there. And then I got a second job. I was working for a newsstand. It was right by the Art Institute of Pittsburgh. So everything kind of like fit in, you know.

I didn't really need the job. But, you know, it was just extra cash, you know. What do you think was the lowest moment when you're at that school and getting hooked on heroin and opiates? So the lowest moment was once I finally knew that there was, there was quite possibly a problem. When I was working at the newsstand one night after work, I was walking down an alley and I got mugged. I got hit across the face from behind. And at the time, I didn't even know what happened. It just happened so fast. Like, bam, white flash. Next thing I

I know, I wake up, I'm on my face. It wasn't anything I had instigated, right? I got jumped from my book bag. Had my wallet in it, had my books, had my record. my footage and stuff and I wake up and I see two individuals run across the road from the alley I just picked up and I took off running I needed my shit you know and I went to yell and I felt like this massive crunch in my jaw and I knew something was like really really bad and I just kept running I needed and my keys were in there everything they end up ditching my book bag across a parking lot. So I grabbed my stuff.

They never got anything out of it. And I ended up like, I'm in Oakland, PA. And I'm trying to find the hospital. And I come across this group of kids and I'm like, I need help. And they're like, you know, they're laughing it off. And I'm like, I'm fucked up. You know, I spit blood in my hand. Like, I need a hospital.

I just got jumped. And this girl, I never saw her after this. she's like oh my gosh you guys he's he's messed up he needs help so i don't know if they were going to a club or whatever you know just other college students and she walked me to the emergency room and i fell asleep in the emergency room waiting and they finally got me in and um for surgery and they woke me up and they're going you're going to surgery like i can't do that like i got a presentation. I have to go. And so they release me. I run to CVS. I get a prescription for like Viceting or something. I jump on the bus. I'm still in the clothes from the night before. I go to school

and I'm just like I'm all busted up. And my lab partner, she's looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong with you? What the heck happened? You know? And the professor, he calls me out in the hallway. He's like, what is going? on. I'm like, I got mugged last night. I'm supposed to be in surgery. He's like, are you nuts? I'm like, I didn't want to fail this class. Like, and I just, I just opened up to him. I'm like, I don't belong here. Like, I got accepted to the school. I have no experience. I'm really gripping at everything, grasping for everything I can to learn this, but it's, it's just not working, but I don't want to fail. And he was like, he told my partner, get him to the hospital.

if you can help him, you know, he's, just get through the surgery and come back and, you know, you can do your presentation. And so I know it's a long, long answer to the question, but so I get to the hospital, I had the surgery and the nurse, she put me on Dilaudid. That's when I knew. It was like, it just, it all came back from the very first time I did Oxycontin. And I'm like, I like this way too much, you know, like, there's, you know, like, there's, this comfortability within me that I'm familiar with now. And it just, it escalated, right?

So I spent a week in the hospital. After that, my addiction, it just, it became full time at that point. I hadn't gotten into using interveniously yet. I was still snorting. But because of, like, the pot that I was selling and the acid and then, you know, now getting high on these stamp bags, the people I knew and the the girls that I was with, I was able to make mine free by helping other people get high as well, you know, that we were using, we were all using together. So that's, that was pretty much like my, my edge to this is like, I'm getting this for cheap enough and they don't know it.

So I'm able to flip it and get mine for free. but it wasn't until after college that it got real bad because I moved from Pittsburgh to Cleveland with my girlfriend, stayed with her mother. And next thing, you know, a couple months go by, I'm flat broke. She's broke. We're driving back and forth to Pittsburgh from Cleveland because that's where the dope was. And before you know it, it's like burnt to like 15 grand. and there's no end in sight.

So I end up calling my mom. I still don't tell her the truth. I just tell her it's not good. Like I can't find work. I can't go back to college. We're not working out. Me and my girlfriend. And I need you come get me.

So she comes get me. We drive back to Cleveland that same morning that my mom drives up to come get me. So it's a two-hour drive from my hometown to Cleveland, and it's a two-hour drive from Cleveland to Pittsburgh. But I knew that my mother wasn't leaving until later on in the morning. So we hurried up. We got up early. We drove the Pittsburgh by to make it back within like an hour of my mom getting to Cleveland to pick me up.

So it was like one of the last times that I got high with my, you know, girlfriend at the time. and you know i'm explaining to my mother the whole ride home because she's got a million and one questions i've been gone for three three and a half years you know why all of a sudden and you know just a lie on top of another lie on top of another lie and you know she was asking about the the mugging and you know and i'm having to explain all this stuff and it just it was not a good point in my life you know I get home, I go about a year drinking, partying in the clubs. I stepped back from the heroin.

There was really no heroin in my hometown. There was like mumblings of it, but I didn't really know anybody. I got a decent factory job, and there were guys at work. I kind of knew my backstory about heroin in Pittsburgh. and they're like, hey, you know, if you ever want to go, just let us know, we'll get you something or whatever. Well, I ended up taking them up on the offer later on in my life. My grandfather ended up passing away, and that was like my tipping point again, going

back into this. And it was just off to the races again, you know. I knew them guys were getting high. So I threw my money with them a couple times. next thing you know they're like hey you just come with us we'll pay you to drive you know little scenarios like that and um it was the one instance where i ended up driving and i met the dope boy and he ends up giving me his number well then you know like a week later or so i go up by myself and uh the amount it gave me for 50 bucks was like wait a minute like

dude I gave you a 50 he's like yeah is there a problem it was like in my mind I'm like hell no I mean it was like way more than I had anticipated to get for 50 bucks so I do what I need to do I get high right I reach out to these guys and I'm like hey just hit me up I got a little bit of extra well then that manifested into more and then you know their friends friends are calling me and I keep going and keep coming back money more money the amount just slowly built up well it got to the point where they were giving me an ounce at a time on the front you know I guess kept coming back because I had a job and everything was working out but um eventually you know I pissed that away too you know they found out I was using and then it got real bad but um

That's where, you know, everything really takes a major turn for me is. So I had several years in Pittsburgh of heroin addiction. I back off. I try to get my shit together. I kind of do, but I don't because I don't stop partying and stuff. And then I end up on heroin again. And so that was 2007, 2007 I started using again. and by 2011

I'm end of 2011 I'm locked up for distribution of heroin didn't even see it coming the guy that I was using at the time to drive for me was ultimately the one that

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Yeah, started small and worked my way up. Tell us about that process. Yeah, so, you know, from the small aspect, it started with that initial visit. You know, at 50 bucks worth of heroin that that guy gave me, I mean, I did what I needed to get high for a couple of days and was able to sell and still got my money back, you know. And so that got me through a week. And then, you know, with the next paycheck, I just kind of. added a little bit to it and it slowly built up to the point where, you know, I bought my first

ounce. And then, you know, once I bought my first ounce and then I'm like, I need to come back the next day because it just, it, that's just how it happened. Um, you know, and it didn't happen overnight. It, it probably, I'd say it took about a year from that initial visit to the point to where, you know, because I was still working too. So I was really just doing it to get high and get by kind of deal. But it wasn't until I started shooting heroin that it really took off. And, you know, I found this whole other group of people in the surrounding areas that were doing it the whole time that I never even knew about. It was like this well-known secret that was a secret.

And it was weird too because like there wasn't like when I said I moved home and there wasn't many people doing it, but there was still rumblings about it. It was those rumblings ended up being people that I knew growing up. And it's like, you know, it was it was just crazy. And I don't know if it was because of the whole oxycotton pandemic or epidemic that was had taken off at the time but it definitely became one of those things where it was like if you knew you knew but if you didn't you know then you weren't going to know as far as like the guys giving me dope um it wasn't even anything that I asked you know it just happened they ended up

just offering me after so many times of coming up and making phone calls and you know and I do him a favor like hey can you take me over here when i drive to the city like yeah i can do that you know i got i got cool with them you know we started going out to eat doing things you know invite me to a barbecue kind of thing i just became like a part of a part of what they were doing in a sense but um personal but not personal if that makes sense it's like i don't know it's almost like they accepted me and they're like yeah man i can trust this dude you know and but once they start to had given me ounces it was you know I was making like a trip twice a day sometimes um you know there's a lot of there's a lot of memories of people that I had initially got high with and they're they're all gone

you know they passed away and it's one of the hardest things to you know to live with now because like ultimately I mean I you know they call it survivor's guilt Um, I'd say it's true. Um, but the fact that, you know, I played a part in it. That, that was, that's the hardest. That's the hardest. That's the hardest of it all. It's like, the fact that I'm clean now, that doesn't bother me. Like, that's, that's the documentation in my book of this mind shift that I had, Ian. It's like, I wanted to be done. I didn't know how to get out of this. You know, I thought I was going to die. A lot of times, I thought I was going to die from this, even though I didn't want to. It's like a weird, catch 22 it's like i'm addicted to heroin i think i'm i'm afraid i'm gonna die but at the same time i don't want to die but i still have to keep chasing this because of how sick i am and how much pain it puts you through you don't know how to ask for help you know and the people involved that are involved with you you know friends that you're just doing the same dumb shit you know trying something out for the first time right ends up becoming the worst decision you ever make in your

life and it's one of those things that you have to live with every single day it's like it's like a freddie kruger version of freaking grownhog day where you're just getting destroyed every single day because of your addiction the worst flu you could ever think of and you you have to you have to feed this shit because if you don't you're not going to you're not going to make it you know and when i say you're not going to make it i don't mean like you may die from your withdrawal but you're just not going to make it in society. You can't function, you know? Do you ever worry that the drugs you sold led to someone's death?

Yeah. That's, yeah. That's the survivor guilt. Absolutely, man. It's one of the hardest things I've had to deal with in my life and live with is the fact that, like, I did not twist their arm, but I most definitely did contribute, you know, and people that I cared about, childhood friends, you know, that are gone. and it's you know it's it's part of the it's part of the change that i've made in my life now

where it's like is it fair i'm no it's not fair that they're gone and i'm still here but i'm not saying that it's you know it's not like they would say the same thing it's not fair that they're here and i'm gone you know so it's like i know i know for a fact that like if they were to change as I have changed, they would be living their life today the same way of not letting my memory fade, right? Because it wasn't something like, you're going to do this heroin with me, right?

Like, I'm going to make you do this. But at the same time, it's like this naive, innocent, immature, we're going to get high, you know? For me, it was an accident. I was just kind of exploring. I didn't know. But it dug into me. It stole my soul, like I had mentioned earlier on.

And this is where, like, my story kind of takes a turn because it wasn't until I got arrested that this mind shift had changed for me. Like, I knew I was going to change my life. It was the scariest shit in the world. Like, I'm driving home. I've got close to an ounce of her. I just made this drug deal. And we're driving home.

I've got all these plans for this weekend. You know, I don't have to, I'm not going to be sick this weekend, and I've got some money, and I've got this dope. And next thing you know, out of nowhere, freaking car just comes straight out of the left lane. Like, I'm thinking we're getting in a car wreck. I put my foot on the dashboard and the driver that set me up. He just straight rips the car to the,

a, sorry, rips the car to the right and pulls over. And the DEA jumps out. They're screaming. Guns are drawn. I mean, it's straight out of, straight out of the TV show or something. I mean, but it's real life. And they're freaking screaming, yelling, pissed off. Get out of the car.

And I locked the door. And I panic. I'm like trying to hide the shit, but there's nowhere to hide it. You know, I've got a newspaper. I've got scales. I've got a needle. I've got dope on me. The kids got dope.

and all he's saying is I'm sorry man I'm so sorry they they said they were going to take my kid and I'm like freaking out like you have no fucking idea what you just did dude they're gonna fucking burn your house down dude they're gonna kill you I swear to God you have no I you know what I mean like I'm full panic mode and um all of a sudden it's like everything had just went quiet and so I got to back up a minute because there's there's more to this so at my absolute bottom and my absolute bottom my brother had his second daughter

and I'm deep I'm going through full withdrawal at this point like I couldn't find dope at the time there was this drought and um my brother had his daughter they invite me to the hospital to see her I go there they're like do you want to hold her and I'm like no I don't want to touch her

like I felt like I was going to get her sick because of you know being sick. And I didn't have any money, you know. My brother just had a daughter and I asked him for 50 bucks, like, hey, you float me 50 bucks kind of situation, right? I get home. I still can't get a hold of the dope boy. It's, you know, been going for a couple days where there's just no dope and it's bad. And I finally, like, I really hit my rock bottom of being done with this shit. and I'm flipping it through the channels. And at this point, all I can do is laying to bed, literally crawl to the bathroom,

run the hot water, and at the same time, crap my brains out from going through detox. Because like I said, it's worse than the flu. Physical agony, you know, body's screaming. It's just your joints, your bones, everything hurts. And so I'm laying there in bed and Joel Hosting comes on TV. And there's this like prayer forgiveness moment where he's, you know, pray with us, you know, kind of situation. And I do. I start praying.

I'd never prayed so hard in my life, man. And like white knuckles praying, crying. And I told God everything. Like I'm 30 years old. I'm at my mom's house. I don't have a car. I don't have a job. I'm addicted to heroin.

No one trusts me. and I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do it anymore, you know, and I just, I started crying. I started bawling my eyes out asking for God to help me. And I kid you not, like that for a split second, I didn't feel anything, man. I was not like, it felt good to cry. Ten minutes later it goes by, fucking phone call. And I'm right off to the races again.

Right back to getting high. That was in August, 2011. A month later, a month later, we get to the DEA situation. And so here we are. I'm pulled over. I locked the car, right? They're screaming. Everything goes quiet, dude.

You can't make this shit up. Everything goes quiet. And all I can hear is this inner voice. You did this to yourself, son. I got plans for you. And it's not going to be easy, but you did this to yourself. I look over at the driver, and I'm like, you saved my life. And it was like he'd seen a ghost, dude.

Like break, neck, neck break. Like, the hell did you just say? I'm going to change my life. I knew it right then and there. I knew it. And I unlocked the door. They ripped me out, you know, foot on my neck, knee in my back, you know. And I'm like,

I'm not resisting kind of situation. Like they ripped me up. One of the arresting officers was in my senior class. He was like on the wrestling team. And the look on his face was like, holy shit. Lee? And I'm like, it's bad, man. Like, I've been sick for a long time.

I'm going to change my life, you know? And nobody wants to hear that shit. They've probably heard that a million times. I'm going to change my life, you know? Fear God in you. I'm going to change my life. right it's like being punished like I'll never do that again you know and then you find a different version or a different way to do it it's it's the same it's the same bull crap but it's just a different

version of it right well I get to county jail they put me on medical observation for like detox medical detox it kept me up front for a week and I'm like it felt like three days and I came out of it And they're like, yeah, you, you haven't eaten. You haven't eaten in a week. I'm like a week. Like, yeah. Like, it felt like three days. Like my, I was in my cell naked under the blankets, rubbed my sides wrong from the constant tossing and turning. But I was just, I was out of it. Like the worst agony that you could imagine. And I swear to you. And I write about it in immersion. I had this situation where somebody had opened the cell and put warm blankets on me. So as I get out of the detox observation, they put me into like general population.

I asked, like, who gave me the warm blankets? They're like, fuck are you talking about, man? There were no warm blankets. I'm like, no, somebody opened my cell and gave me warm blankets. And they're like, there's only been two guards that have been walking. you, you've got day and night shift. And nobody's giving you freaking blankets, dude. Those are the same, that's the same blanket, you know, and I look in there and it's just one blanket. I, you know, I don't know if the night shift guard did. I don't, I don't know. Somebody gave me a worn blanket.

Switch my blankets out. I know it. And it was the most comforting feeling. Like, I was so weak. I couldn't even lift my head to see what was going on, but I know that it happened on multiple occasions where, you know, this blanket was swapped out. But then, you know, they put me into general population and I'm getting to my racket.

And I don't know what to expect from anything. I've never been in trouble at all. So I didn't know if I was going to have to fight. I didn't know how many people were going to be in the dorm. I didn't know if it was going to be overcrowded. loud, whatever. I get in there, there's like 10 tables where you could sit and play checkers, dominoes, whatever, and probably like 50 racks. It was 50 bunk beds. It was in a gymnasium part of the of the jail. I just wanted to use the phone at the time, you know, get a hold of my mom.

But as I'm walking up to the phone, there was a guy sitting at the table with the newspaper. He's like, you were on the front page of the paper this week. I said, oh, yeah. He's like, yeah, he's like, come with me. I got it. I'll let you see it. Get to his rack and he hands me a Bible, dude. He's like, I don't know if you wanted or not, but I've got an extra one.

I took it, you know, for me, because I'm going to change my life, right? I wanted to have a different aspect of understanding of who I am. I wanted to change not just mentally, but spiritually, emotionally, you know. And like, I grew up as, I grew up in the church, you know. I was baptized at like 14 or 15, right around the same time I started getting in the pot. But it was because I had a misunderstanding of what, like, my relationship. entailed and required for me with God, you know. I'm baptized. My foot's in the door. I'm good. Like, I didn't have this understanding, you know, but. So, like, I, I knew God, right?

I just didn't have a working relationship. And so I felt like this was, this was another sign. Like, hey, you know, this is, this is part of your change. You know, I prayed to God. Everything went quiet in the car, the blanket. And now the first person in general population asking me if I wanted a Bible, I'm like, okay, you know, I'm going to work on this. And so, you know, I sat in county for six months. And it was probably, I'd say about 90 days before I talked to my lawyer. Because I didn't have any cash, so it was like court appointed. and um you know they they tell me yeah the prosecutors recommending 11 years and i'm like

there's no way 11 years i've never been in trouble in my life so i start advocating for myself i tell my lawyer like hey like as crazy as this sounds i'm a victim of circumstance due to due to my addiction like had i not been addicted to heroin i would not be in this situation right I look back on it now and it's like, it's kind of bullshit because, you know, I was smoking pot and dealing drugs. So technically without heroin, I mean, I still could have gotten trouble. But I don't think it would have been to the extent of freaking 11 years that the prosecutor was recommending. And I told my lawyer, like, you've got to help advocate for me. Like, I need help.

Like, I want to change. I need to change. Or not that I need to change, but like, I want to change. and I need this, but I know I need this time, but not 11 years. So, you know, time goes by, and it felt like it was forever. Probably like a month, at least a few weeks where I didn't hear from my lawyer. And they come back and they told me eight years. and I'm like, my lawyer's name's John.

I said, John, dude, there's no way. There's no way I'm going to do eight years. And it's right around the holidays. So I got arrested in September. So, you know, there's that delay factor too when you're going through the holiday process. It finally comes back. I think it was like after Thanksgiving.

Yeah, it was in between Thanksgiving and Christmas. He comes back and they're like, it's a final offer. seven years, 11 months, mandatory three with a possibility for judicial based on good behavior. Well, in the state of Ohio, I missed doing all seven years, 11 months by one month based on the mandatory time that they gave me in non-mandatory. Because had it been ran at five years, I would have had to do the five on top of the three. and it ended up being three years mandatory with four years 11 months. And so I was like, all right, I can do this.

And the rationalizing that I did in my head was like, this is great. I knew I was going to prison. I know I'm going to change my life. I know it's not going to be easy. I can do three years. It's not five years. I'll be 34, you know? and I'll be clean. I'll have this, you know, I'll have like almost four years because, you know,

you have your process of having to wait to file and then after you file there's a waiting period. So by the time I get home, I'll have close to four years. So in my head, I'm like, it's like a bargaining chip for me. Like, this is a win-win on both ends because I don't think I'm going to get a better deal than this, you know. So I took the time, right? it comes time for the judge and it was like it was the hardest thing I'd ever done at the time listening to that and my mother in the background crying and just knowing the pain that I put on my family and my family's there to support me but I think they're really there to support her because she needed it the most I felt at the time is just because it hadn't been easy you know

like she leaves my father when i'm the age of three because of his freaking psychotic mental health stuff right she remarries ends up marrying someone that's even worse just completely not just verbally like my father was verbally abusive emotionally abusive because he had like he had his mental health substance abuse issues my stepfather was physically on top of all those other things so trying to escape that was worse and so you know to move up here raise her family as a single mother you know it was just it wasn't fair it wasn't fair to my mother the the the way the cards laid so to speak right um things should have been a lot a lot different but i think the the absence of the father in our lives there was

just there was that element of structure that just it wasn't there you know there was What were your final charges? They were probably getting in possession of heroin. So I ended up with, I think, like, seven felonies total. And this was back in 2011, but I ended up with two F2s, three F3s, and two F2s, three F3s, an F4 and an F5 in total. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for today's superstar.

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Priceline is here to help you make it happen. With millions of deals on flights, hotels, and rental cars, you can go see the game live. Don't just dream about the trip. Book it with Price Line. Download the Priceline app or visitpriceline.com. Actual prices may vary, limited time offer. And the F-2s ended up being the mandatory time. And was the case federal at all or was all-state?

No, it was all-state. And did you ever find out why that guy flipped on you? Yeah. I know they threatened him, but what was the initial? Yeah. No, good question. So as the story goes, apparently, from what I've heard, and I wasn't the only person he told on, but the dude was in a car wreck.

That car wreck led to pills. When the pills got cut off, that led to the harder stuff, right? Well, somewhere in there with that car wreck, he was on probation. and so the addiction and the failed drug test and probation and stuff he ended up selling his parents TV they pressed charges on him again and that's where it was like you know he ended up flipping to get out of all this trouble and so you know I was in the crosshairs and I didn't even know it at the time I'd been getting high with him and his brother for a couple years you know back and forth, paying them to drive from time to time. Because like I told you, man, you know,

towards the end of my addiction, like, I didn't have a car, I didn't have a job. I was just running. You know, I got caught off. They weren't front me dope anymore, but they were still like, letting me come up. And when they were front me the dope, it wasn't the same prices as when I got cut off. Like, it got rough. But I still had to keep running in order to accommodate my addiction. But, yeah. How old are you when you actually step up? foot in prison after sentence. 30 years old. Yep.

So age 15, start getting into drugs and alcohol. By the age of 30, I'm in prison. Tell us about your prison experience. Yeah. So, you know, and like with watching your show and stuff, it's kind of interesting. You know, I hope you don't mind if I ask you some questions too, because like with federal, do you have, is there an intake processing and then you go to the federal main compound or is it all in one?

because ours, we have a processing center and then you sit there until they figure out, like, how they're going to classify you. Like, if it's like an ag, an aggravated, then you're going to have a higher classification of, like, maximum or like if it's murder or capital type deal, then you've got like a supermax, right? Or you've got like, for me, where it was non-ag, I was medium to low level. From what I've heard, most states do have like the separate processing centers where you go to first before going to your spot. In the feds, it depends on a couple situations. One, if you have no bail, you'll go to a detention center.

And from the detention center, you'll go to your actual place after you get sentenced. Or if you self-surrender, you're going right to the place that they send you to for your sentence. It seems like at every place you go to, they process you. It's the same process. Yeah. Like you're still there. Each time you go, you're meeting with the, the, the, nurse, you're meeting with the counselor, you're meeting with the case manager. It's still like a six

hour or a deal. So every prison you go to, it seems like there's a processing center within that prison. Yeah. So in the state of Ohio, we've got 88 counties in the state of Ohio. And based on the geographical location of where that crime was committed, determines of like where you're going to go for processing. So you've got like a CRC, which is like Franklin County, Columbus area. And then you've got for like my area I was more northwestern so I went Lorraine which is more up by the lake north northern Ohio

so I went to Lorraine it took two months and my processing in all was like two weeks total and like I don't know about you but for me that you know pulling up to the processing

did you self surrender I can't no I got my bond revoked so I didn't have that luxury. Yeah. So I went from a detention center right to prison. Yeah, I got you. So like, I went from county jail to the processing center and it was like, that's, that's when shit got real. You know, you're pulling up to this compound. And it's everything you see on TV, right, the fence, the barbed wire and all that stuff, but it's different when you're on that bus. And so you pull up and you've got this, this hanger gate set up. It's doubled. So the bus is there. They clear the bus.

you go in right and then that gate shuts and then and you come in and it's just like eerily quiet and you've got this vibe on the bus where like guys have been through this process before but then you know there's this other like level of energy that you can almost cut with a knife where you know people are experiencing this for the first time and it's like oh shit moment right and when when you get in it's like for me it was crazy because they look at loaded us off the bus. They line us up. They get us into like what's almost like a garage carport hanger kind of, you know, visualization, right? But there's this yellow line that traces the wall. Have you come in, do not cross that yellow line, fall that yellow line all the way around

until the line stops kind of situation. And then they have you turn around. and they have you stripped down and they have you turn back around to face center so you're in this room with like 50 dudes it's almost like it's i mean it's institutionalized their process too like the guards and how they do this intake but you're you're standing there butt-ass naked and they have you turn around have you squat cough kind of deal and then when you're done turn back around you get dressed right and then there's the next step of so that whole process of like strip down, given a bag, given your, your outfit, you know, it all happens within, you know, a couple hours. And then, you know, they shave your head and stuff and you get your picture. But like the other part of what you were saying, the intake part, where you meet

the counselors or they do like the psyche vow and figure out your paperwork, they actually give you a choice when you're doing the paperwork of where do you want to go if you can go anywhere. So I tried to pick the closest locations to where my mom is in case she does decide to come visit me. Because at the time, you know, my emotional process, I'm like, she's not going to come see me. You know, as much as I would want her to. Like, and it was over-dramatized at the time. Like, I knew she would, but it just felt like she wouldn't. Even though she came and visited me during county jail and all that stuff.

But, like, Lorraine is pretty far away. So I get to the the counselor part. And did they ever ask you if you wanted to be an organ donor? Did you ever get that question? No, I don't think so. It was like the most random, unexpected question, you know? And I kind of like chuckled at it at first like, Oregon, like, what the hell is this? You know, I'm not getting my license.

She's like, she stopped what she was doing. She's like, in case you die. You know, and I'm like, that was my oh shit moment. Like, where the hell am I going? You know? It's like, no, I don't want to be an organ donor. But, you know, it was, that was sobering. Lorraine was nasty.

It was, it was a foul experience for me. Like, so it's a huge range. And then you've got these different buildings. And like on your one one show that I, or interview that I watched, it was the, it was the vice lord. And he was talking, how they described. things like cars and stuff right that that was new to me i'd never heard that term because they're like units but it just wasn't you know so i get to my holding cell or my unit and it's just it's disgusting dude it's a freaking dungeon it's in february it's up by the lake you know snow it's coming through

the cracks in these windows. We've mush faked toilet paper and kind of used it as like caulking to fill the cracks on the windows. There's like this brown substance. I was hoping it's pudding or something, but I don't think it was pudding, dude. Like, I mean, it was very nasty and disturbing and decrepit and you could just, you could see the mental health breakdowns in this room, dude. I mean, bitch written as big as you can get it across the ceiling and the word, the F word and, you know, people writing their gang click stuff on the walls and people writing with etching the calendar and people writing prayers and scriptures on the wall. It's just, it was sad. It was sad to be in there. And I knew it was just, it was, uh, it was a psychological.

emotional, spiritual warfare waiting to find out like the next bit of information. Where am I going to go, right? And that took about two months. So I finally find out where I, well, my buddy, so I got back up. So while I'm in Lorraine, my buddy, Jordan, who's in my book, childhood friend of mine, he had went to prison early on. He got in trouble. He ends up getting out changing his life.

you know he's doing great now he's a civil engineer he's flourishing he's uh you know he's pivotal in my story and in my life but i get a letter from him he's like hey you need to get to marian marian's got all these programs it's i went there and this is the closest you're going to get to home. And this is how you do it. So he gives me the roundabout way to do it. My mom's got to reach out to the state and pretty much file a request for like a furlough type deal to for consideration to be close to home. And it freaking worked. You know, it took like an, it took a while, you know, an additional two weeks from the time that I had spoken to my mother to have that thing that I finally got you know, notified that, hey, you're going to Marion. So I get to Marion in March of 2012.

And it's another one of those, oh shit moments, right? You know, I've got the two-hour drive from Lorraine to Marion, well, hour and a half, whatever. And same thing. You pull up to this huge compound and you got to wait for the process to let everybody off. And as soon as we, we get off, the captain is like, you know, don't take kindness for a weakness. And I'm just like, what the hell does that even mean? Like, kindness for weakness, I'm in prison. Like, I don't, I don't understand. But, you know, Marion is unique in a sense of how it was structured with the programs. And it kind of clicked later on to why he said what he said. Like, don't fuck this up, you know, because we'll ship you out quicker and you can blink.

And, you know, it's like when I got into Marion, it's like the whole population of this compound is moving in between. So like medium has a tendency to be controlled movement or open movement. Marion was different. Like it was controlled but open. Like they had interval. of when they would let guys move around the compound. And when we got there, it was like during one of those open movements. So we're down at the laundry. We're getting issued our outfits. And it's just, it's chaos, man.

You know, the whole, you're talking about thousands of people within this compound moving around and, you know, all eyes are on the new guys kind of thing, you know. And you just, you don't know what to expect, you know. It was really, it was really weird. The old bricks and the hallways and the, you know, this place is from the 50s. And to me it's just like, dude, this place has some history. You know, they've got like corridors where the halls were with the steel gates and stuff. Like you could tell like this place has been shut down in its time, you know.

And it's very sobering. So they put me in a They put me in a dorm There's like It's double range Like you got in their alphabet And numbered And I ended up in

E dorm at Marion Correctional And there's like Probably like 200 200 guys It's probably like a quarter Of a basketball court It's probably the closest I can describe it And then below it would be like

a numbered dorm. But they're not connect, you know what I mean? They're their own units, if that makes sense. And that's how it was. And then they had sections in this range where it was like lifers dorms. And that was where they were individual cells within that dorm. But yeah, I didn't have a cell. Did you have a cell?

So I was in the detention centers. I was in cells. Then at the low security, it's like rooms, like 12-man rooms. Yeah. And then there was four-man cubicles at the camp. And then in some spots, it was just open dorms. I got you. Yeah.

So the dorms, it was open dorm kind of deal. And this is what led me to you. And it's ironic because, like, I commend you on talking about the awkward shit that happens with prison, right? And so when I'm writing my book, I'm like, what do I leave in? What do I, you know, do I, do I just, am I an open book about this, you know, because my most awkward situation was from a well-known serial rapist that fucking smelt my feet in the middle of the night that I didn't even know about.

It wasn't until the following morning that the neighbor guy that was on the bottom rack, he had just woken up to like use a bathroom or something and he he caught the dude like literally at my rack smelling my feet and i thought it was a joke like i thought i'm like they're trying to get me to crash out or something this doesn't make any sense but he was like dude you're you're gonna have to you're gonna have to handle this like so it's just weird right i go to prison i get some fucking guy smelling my feet kind of thing and it's like Like, I just want to go home. You know, I don't, you know. So how did you handle it? I went to breakfast. I'm furious about this. I'm processing it all.

And I'm like, I don't know if it's real. Like, what do I do? Like, you can't just confront somebody, right? I mean, you can. If that's the type of individual you are, which there's plenty of them that just don't have any tolerance for bullshit. And they just crash out. I'm like at this part, I'm just kind of like practical about it. trying to be strategic.

And long story short, I get back from breakfast, the dude's at my dorm or at my rack. He's literally standing at my rack. And I'm like, you've got to be fucking kidding me. This is like, this is really happening. So like, here we go. You know, I'm going into my dorm, get to my rack and he's like, hey, young blood kind of, you know, just weird. He had like the predator coat beady dick lenses, you know what I mean? like you just know if they've got like the sexual predator freaking glasses that and that's what

they were and dude was built like Mike Tyson so you know and mind you I'm like a hundred days clean I've never really been in a fight you know I've been in confrontations and stuff I'm not a fighter to you know like for survival I'll fight you know I will defend myself but I'm not just going to go out and try and punk somebody or start a fight right um I'm more respectful in the sense. So it was just weird, man. And so he says, hey, man, you're trying to work out today. And I'm like, no, I'm good.

Like, I don't want to work out. Oh, I know what's going to say. So I'm 100 days clean. I'm like 155 pounds, dude, you know, coming into prison. I'm like, I'm 6.3. So today I'm like 190-ish, 195, you know, I work out. I've put some weight on over the years. But at the time, I was still, like, getting into a workout routine and stuff.

And this dude asked me if I want to work out. I'm like, I know what this means. No. Like, no, I don't want to work out with you, bro. Do me a favor. Just stay out of my area. All right. And he just kind of stood there for a second.

It just stared at me and didn't say anything. And then his whole demeanor changed. He's like, what the fuck do you just say to me? I said, no. No, I don't want to work out with you. I don't want you in my area. you. You can at least give me that respect, right? Excuse me. And so he's like, like I said, he stood there for a second after he snapped and he's like, oh, I got something for you. And he turns

around and walks away. And he says it again. He gets louder. So he's like, he's creating a scene now. I'm like, this fucking dude is like, what is going on? He's like, I got something for you. I got something for you and your white bolt friends. And he's like calling me a racist. Like, what the fuck, dude? and he goes to his rack, he reaches under his mattress, puts him in his shirt, right? Like his shirt's unbuttoned, like right here. And he starts walking back to me all aggressive. He's like, get on the fucking wall, bitch.

And I was like, don't call me a fucking bitch, dude. We're not doing this. Like, you're fucking getting loud and all this screaming and shit. You know what I mean? And I'm just like, like, fuck you. And he gets about as far as you and I are from me. And next thing you know, the CEO calls my name.

Like, English, get in the fucking hallway. I go in the hallway. Oh, right when that happened, the dude stopped in his steps and, like, pivoted. It just turned around and walked away, right? So I kind of, like, held off for a second because I didn't want to, like,

follow right behind that dude that was just, you know, creating this confrontation. I get in the hallway, and he sends me to sergeant's office. He's like, you haven't even been here that long. You're causing issues.

I'm sending you to the sergeant's office. Like, it's not, it's not, that it's not necessary, you know? Like, I'm going to get a freaking ticket for this. I just want to go home, Ian, you know? It's all I want to do. I want to change. I want to focus on myself. I want to go home.

I got this guy smelling my feet. And so I get down there. I'm standing there in a hallway. And then like three minutes later, the foot smeller comes down. And he's like, hey, man, whatever she says. I'm like, dude, I don't give a shit, man. I'm not saying your name. it was misunderstanding i don't give a shit just stay away from me and we're cool right she ends up

moving me and um i end up i had a porter job i'm in the hallway right and he freaking i'm mopping right and this was like a couple days later so i'm mopping the i'm mopping right after breakfast that was my time to mop this section of hallway and next thing you know dude's in the hallway he's like i'm gonna see you on the yard we're gonna finish this and i'm like we're not going to do anything thing, bro. Like, you're fucking weird. And so I get it in my head because you know how food works, right? You know, it's how people have their hustles, you know, whether it's ironing or stitching or artwork or whatever. I'm like, I'm going to, I'm going to pay and have this dude's ass beat. I'm like, I'm going to get the fucking message across. And so my buddy Jordan, who was in prison prior to me

told me about Marion, I ended up being introduced to some of the lifers that help change Jordan's life, right, help get him into certain programs. Well, they're lifers, dude. It doesn't matter how much they've changed. They've got a pass and they know how to handle this shit, right? So I'm thinking, I'm going to, I'm going to say something to him. Like, I want to, this is my situation. This is what I want to do. Dude told me, he's like, you have to handle this. I'm not taking your food. I'm not doing this. He's like, I'll make sure nothing happens to you. I mean, even if you get your ass beat, that'll be the end of it.

But you're going to handle this. You have to handle it or else the problem will handle you. And that's how we deal with our issues in here. You're not going to pay your way kind of thing. And I'm like, that's not the response I thought I was going to get. Dude, I thought this was going to, I thought this was different. But this guy was just, he was changed. Like in the sense, like he was going to see it through and allow it.

to be handled appropriately, and that would be the end of it. And it never got to that. So I get moved to the dorm about, so that was March, April, so by like June, a couple of months from by, it never came to it. And didn't really see the dude outside of, you know, he was on the yard a couple of times, but it's, you know, it's a massive population of guys out on the yard. and never had any other interactions with that that foot smeller. Well, the neighbor that told me, remember, the neighbor that said, hey, that dude was smelling your feet.

I saw him do it. He's like, he just tried to rape some kid up in the dorm. He tried to pull him into the mop closet and rape him. And a bunch of young dudes out of Cleveland stomped the shit out of him, made him check in. Took all his stuff. so by that time it had been like you know a month or so of this happening because i never heard about it until he told me and so we looked him up and he had already had another rape case at the new maximum security he raped his cellar or whatever it's just it's freaking crazy you know

but outside of that you know um i i utilized prison like And it sounds crazy, but I used it to my advantage. I used the programs, and I treated them like college in a sense. What kind of programs did they have there? Well, just cognitive behavioral therapy. There was, you know, ministry programs, you know, Bible study stuff. It was another one. It was called the Green Initiative where they, this was crazy.

So this project was going on in Marion. And they had this whole department to where they, they'd, did waste reduction for the institution. Like they recycled the pop cans. They recycled the food waste versus actual, you know, trash that could be recycled. And they turned Marion into like its own recycling center. So I got into that.

And you know, like with the jobs, you have like a pay, right? Well, some of them, some of the other jobs are like incentivized. You know, when I was working with Green Initiative, it was like 70 bucks a month, man, I was, you know, I was living high on the hog for state pay, right? And so, like, after a year, my, my security level got dropped from medium to minimum, and I ended up out at the camp. And one of the benefits of being in the Green Initiative was that they allowed me to go outside the gate to the recycling center. But yeah, as far as programs like that, they had computer programs. They were teaching guys to code.

It was a program called Lifeline. And guys were in there learning how to, you know, write code on computer. They had like a mush fake room. You can do stuff with that. They had a band room. You can do stuff with that. Yeah. I guess it'd be about the same as how federal or any other state is as far as, you know,

jobs and stuff like that. But Marion was, Marion was unique. I did a lot of psychology through the mental health department. There was a buddy of mine. He was out of Toledo. His name was Jason. And this dude knew how to move through the institutions and how to get passes and get into classes because a lot of the classes was determined on like your,

release time. So if you had too much time, you weren't able to get in. But Jason knew how to maneuver through that stuff. And he kind of showed me the ropes on, you know, getting kites put in to actually talk to the instructors versus like, hey, can you put my name on this list? So I got like dual diagnosis was really interesting. A lot of the cognitive behavioral therapy, like I'd said, the psychology approach to just how things are. So it wasn't like I didn't have a mental health case, but I was able to get into a lot of the mental health psychology classes. And it was really, it was really beneficial to me because it just kind of like,

I'm like scratching at the surface of wanting to understand more of like how we think and behave and, you know, stress and those things of that nature and plus you know because of my addiction with heroin I wanted to learn more about me as a person and um from a psychological standpoint it was it was just you know it was really nice to be able to get into those classes what did you find out about yourself just with trauma um there was a lot of unresolved issues from my past as a child so it wasn't so much like, and it wasn't until later on that I really understood more about it, but there's a doctor, Dr. Gabor Matei, and he talked about childhood trauma. And it's not so much

why the addiction, but why the pain, right? What's the underlying fundamentals of why this person is in so much pain that causes them to, you know, go into, substance abuse because once the substance abuse is there it's there's a reason why why do they continue to suppress something from within right so it just you know the the bigger picture for me was like i'm not as fucked up as i thought i was you know there's a lot of complex things that happened in my childhood that, you know, I just wasn't prepared to handle, nor did I have the tools to understand how to handle it. So, yeah, there was recovery while I was in prison, but it wasn't until I got home that I realized it wasn't just recovery, but I needed, you know, therapy as well.

And it was through therapy that has put me on this different journey of what healing looks like, You know, because it's like when you're in prison, you become very institutionalized in the sense of like everything is super rigid. Like, this is when I wake up. This is when I have to do this. This is when I have to do that. And it has to look a certain way when I'm doing, you know what I mean? But it's it's more organic than like when you get home to where if it doesn't fall in line, it's okay. You know, if you're if you're still on this progression of, you know, doing the.

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That's the realreal.com. Terms apply. right thing and changing, then, you know, it just, it becomes more organic. Did you feel a peace in prison? I mean, you finally got sober. You were clean in there. Yeah. Life was probably a lot less disastrous than what it was before you went to prison. Yeah, you know, and that's a really good question because. And you finally got hope for the future too for the first time. Yeah. You know, it's crazy, very naive.

to like what I thought it was going to look like coming home. You know, I'm preparing, got all these scenarios of, if plan A doesn't fail or doesn't work, then I'll go to plan B. And if plan B and plan C, right, well, you probably know as well as I do, all those plans are just wiped.

Yeah. I'm not doing anything that I remotely thought I'd be doing. Yeah. So, um, yeah, man. So there's, there's a poem in my book.

It's called the other side of the fence. And you hit the nail on the head with the question because when I was in prison, I was given a perspective of two different worlds, right? You know, the society is what I've known versus the society within prison. The happiest people I knew in life are the ones doing life. And it's because of that question that you just asked of that sense of peace, you know. and there was it's it's kind of strange you know you you have that rigid routine of what to expect right and you kind of fall in line with how that routine is and as long as you continue to work on

yourself you know like i stopped counting time like and i still have a perception of time that's different than how it was before i went to prison where it's like my work days my work days go why and it's just like I just because I don't look at the clock like I used to you know um the program the routine the regimen workout you know count time kind of thing it's yeah um and I can understand I understand and I see why um we have such a high level of recidivism you know there's that comfortability, I think, that falls in line with a lot of people that if they don't make it, if it doesn't work out the way that they had anticipated it to in life, they just, they go back to what they're most familiar with, right? You know, regardless of the destruction that's left

behind when they go back in. I saw it myself. I think I was in prison like six months when I saw the first guy that was in my dorm back. I'm like, damn, dude, you just got out. You know? I knew guys I had like 14 numbers, dude, over the span of 22 years. 14 numbers. It's crazy. How much time did you end up doing? All together I did, I did three and a half in Marion. So basically because of the wait, I did my mandatory three.

And then there was like the 90 day waiting for the judicial. And then 90 days to bring me back. But then after that I had, so total four and a half years because I had to do like a CBCF. if you ever heard of the correctional-based community facility. So it's like a halfway house. Yeah. I think we call it a RCC or residential community. Yeah, RCC.

Yeah. So ours was a CBCO. So I was only supposed to be there for, you know, a couple months and it ended up being a little bit longer because they ended up, like my probation officer forgot to do something at the very end. So I had to stay like an extra two weeks. But at that point, I was working at Bob Evan. and, you know, it was real food.

I was doing like eight to ten hour days. I'm like, that's another two weeks of just eating real food. Oh, whatever. You know, and at that point, I'm changed. Really, I have changed. So it's just like my mind shift that I had told you about early on, you know, I never lost sight of that. I was like constantly when I'm outside on the yard, like I'm looking past the fence.

A lot of people are like consumed by what's going on on the inside and I'm just thinking like man I can't wait I can't wait till this is over dude I can't wait to have a job I can't wait to have bills I can't wait to be able to complain about having bills I can't wait to not have to take a shower with shower shoes and freaking dudes and have to brush my teeth in the morning and smell somebody taking a dump because the food is just you know what I mean like I just never I never lost sight of it but at the same time it was like, you know, I knew it, I knew it was going to be a challenge, but I was like, I'm not going home either. I can't go home. My community that I came from, like my small town,

it would not be able, would have been able to provide for me what Columbus has given me, you know, the diversification of second chance employment and the programs. That's another, like, key important thing too about what Marion provided was the organizations that were there to help prepare you to come home. I utilized one. It's called Kindway Embark, and it's a prison ministry program, but the way that they're set up is they run classes. Well, they're very, they're very rigorous in screening their applicants, and they'll go through like this huge kind of interview process to determine like that they're to ensure that they've made the appropriate decision on who the candidate will be for the next class and there's several individuals per season and um but the way

it's structured is your last year in and then your first year out and they've got cognitive behavioral classes too like one's called getting it right and basically you know they'll throw scenarios at you, financial situations or, you know, social interactions to kind of like role play. Well, if this happens, what are you going to do kind of thing? Or if you had this money and then you had these bills, you know, they're just kind of breaking you away from being on that rigorous routine, that rigid routine of prison and start thinking differently about like how things are going to be when you get home. But then the other one was like a 12 steps, celebrate recovery approach to, you know, recovery, but through scripture.

Because like I said, it's a prison ministry program. But so Kynway and Bark was one that I got linked up with through my buddy Jordan. He told me about it. And, you know, I knew that this was going to be an option, a possible option for me to make that shit. from my hometown to Columbus to where I wouldn't have to, you know, I wouldn't have to go to a shelter because people are like, well, how are you going to make it in Columbus? I don't care. I'm going to a shelter if I have to. I, you know, I'll, I'll ride a bike. I'm going to make it happen. And it just, it just so happened that I was selected for, to be one of the candidates for the

Kynway Embark House. And, um, and actually, it just, it just so happened that I was selected for to be one of the candidates for the highway embark house and um and actually like when i got my judicial i'm the first that's ever been released on a judicial reached out to the organization and said hey i you know is there a spot for me i want to come to columbus so um they've been around for quite a while and um you know they're they've spanned out for more than just marrying now they're the ORWC for women's corrections and then they're in multiple other facilities throughout Ohio as well, helping guys and women come home. And, you know, the interesting thing is, like, each candidate is paired with what's classified as a navigator.

And, you know, that person will help, you know, get them on their feet and set up a schedule. But one of the other organizations was called TAP. And they help with, like, veterans or people who are getting released from mental health. and that's how I got my first job, dude. You know, I was riding my bike five miles one way, working 12-hour shifts and, you know, in the brain and just fucking suck, dude. But, you know, you got to do what you got to do.

What do you do now for work? I'm plumbing. Plumbing. I do commercial, residential, remodel, new builds, mostly remodel and service work as well. But I came from commercial of just, giant half million million square foot warehouses from from the ground up gas and everything just kind of navigated my way into a different chapter of my life and you know working building a

family i've got a four-year-old boy and it's you know i'm married to a wonderful woman who's put up with a lot of shit you know and a lot of a lot of times we've had to pivot but it's especially with writing this book, it's, it's been ongoing since prison, you know. It's straight to the point, you know, I don't sugarcoat a lot. There's a lot of death in there. There's been a lot of death in my life, you know, and like you had asked earlier, you know, it's one of the hardest things is knowing that a lot of my acquaintances and friends, childhood friends are dead because of heroin. And, you know, as complex as my life is, it's pretty simple.

You know, I just wanted to set a positive message that this is what change looks like. You know, everybody's life is different. Everybody's complexities or, you know, but the end result is the same when it comes to setting an example of what that change is, right? And that's what immersion is. It's like if you're submerged, you're being held under. You're being, it's suppressed. You're, you know, restricted.

But to emerge, there's a process, you know, and the process is immersion. We rise up out of that, right? That's what changes. And for a longest time, it's like you talk to somebody and you get that glass to overlook. Like, yeah, they're not hearing you. They've heard it a million times over. They've seen it a million times over. Individuals coming out and then going.

back in, people leaving and dying within two weeks. I've seen it all. Do you still talk to your mom? What's your relationship like? So my relationship with my mother is amazing now. And, you know, I do anything and everything I can to help her. I mean, I'm two hours away from her, but, you know, when she gives me the call, if there's something that's needed at the house, you know, I do it. I talk to her on a regular basis. My sister is a social worker. she ended up adopting my brother's two two daughters my my brother had a belt with addiction and you know he's he's he's working his life and you know working on his journey of of change and what change looks like but you know um it's just a no man it's like you look back and it's like

my life was a pink floyd song you know next thing you know 10 years passes by and it's like what the hell happened you know you're in prison like this is going to be it you're either going to this is going to be the end of your story or this is just the beginning you know what i mean and now you have a new 10 years to look back on when that time comes absolutely and not have that those memories of the prison memories right when you're reflecting on the last 10 yeah you know and it's there was a guy that had posted something and he was in the CBCF at the same time I was but he's just now celebrating like I think two years or four years but I commented and I'm like that's amazing you know like he had a relapse but that doesn't matter because the fact that the matter is like it's today

right and he's celebrating these these couple years of clean time but you it seems so far in the distance of when that was but yet when you talk about it or you look back on it, it's like it happened yesterday. And that's how it should be, right? Because we can never forget where we came from. Like, I don't think you'll never forget your number, right? I'll never forget my prison number. It's just one of those things, as much as I want to.

There's a lot of people that have changed their lives that don't want to talk about it, but they'll never forget where they came from. Did you ever have closure with your stepdad? No, nope. Oddly enough, he and his. up having a massive heart attack while I was incarcerated. And I remember being on the film with my mother and I just, I prayed for her soul, man. I did. It's just the amount of shit he put my family through, man. The, like, there's, there's a certain level of bruising that, that leaves a feeling

behind it. And, like, that coloration. I'll never forget it, dude. You know, just like the pain I have from the friends that have died, you know, I'll never forget it. It's just one of those things I have to live with, you know. But I'm living my life for them as well, you know. There's wins and there's losses in my life. And I still talk to those friends, you know, like, the one main character, his name's big country, you know, and dude, he was, he was the type of dude,

he would roast you so bad and there was no comeback. You had no comeback to these roast. All you had was the fact that you had to go along and laugh with it. That's how good this dude was. He just, you know, as much as an asshole as he was, there was a certain level to his character that It was just, yeah, man, it just, you know, the laugh, he had one of those contagious laughs, you know, and in the end, I just, I'm doing, I'm doing my part for him, like I know he would for me, if that makes sense. What's the most important lesson you've learned throughout all of these years of your life so far? The most important lesson I learned.

I'm still working on it, man. Patience. I'm horrible at it, but I've gotten better at it, especially with a four-year-old. It's like, like it makes sense now. The Homer Simpson and the Bart, I mean, I won't do that, but, you know, it's like, it's, it's, you're going to have kids, man, be prepared, buddy. It's the, it's the most wonderful blessing in the world and at the same time it's the most challenging, you know, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for anything. that was one of the hardest things too is is having having my son Elias because like as much as my wife and I prepared for us to have him there were there's just some things that like if you if you

haven't been around others you won't know and like Elias was born he was jaundice I didn't know what jaundice was and they didn't really tell us until he was admitted so there was that whole like shocking factor of, oh my God, my son has jaundice because you think, like for me, I come from an addictive background. I think of like liver failure. You know, if somebody's jaundice, you know, but it's different from a newborn. And so I shared that perspective too, but, you know, I guess another answer to your question would be just act of kindness. You know, it goes a long way. It's very impactful You know

You just When you ask somebody How are you doing? They're like, I'm good You know, are you, are you really good though? Like, like, how are you? You know? Because you just, you never know.

Like, you got somebody standing at a sign with a, or at a red light with a sign. I'm not going to give you money. But you have the, you have the time to stand here with a sign. You've got time to listen to me until that light turns green because it doesn't have to be like this.

I've been. there, right? You know what I mean? Like, envision the best version of you and don't lose sight of it because you never know when that time, when that, when that clock clicks and it's time for you to make that change, that's, that's, that's when it's the most important. Like, you can't lose the best vision of yourself. Because if you do, then you're just always going to be lost. But if you have hope, you know, eventually it's going to happen. You know, it's just when you apply it, right? Lee, I appreciate you coming on the show today, man. Thanks, Ian. I appreciate this, man. It's been a joy.

Good. I'm glad. Thank you again. Yeah, man.