Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was A Boston Mob Legend - Then I spent 25+ years In Prison | Gigi Marino

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Former Boston mobster Vincent Gigi Marino opens up about his life inside organized crime. Growing up in Boston, Gigi shares how his upbringing and family life led him down the wrong path and into a world of stick-ups, bank robberies, and the streets. He details his time in state prison, and what it was really like to spend decades inside the federal prison system surrounded by some of the most notorious criminals in America. This is an inside look at mob life, survival behind bars, and the lessons Gigi learned after years of living in the shadows. #MobStories #BostonMob #OrganizedCrime #TrueCrimePodcast #MafiaStories #PrisonTalk #BankRobbery #crimelife Thank you to BLUCHEW & PRIZEPICKS for sponsoring this episode: BlueChew: Visit https://bluechew.com/ and use promo code LOCKEDIN at checkout to get your first month of BlueChew FREE & pay five bucks for shipping. Prizepicks: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/IANBICK and use code IANBICK and get $50 in lineups when you play your first $5 lineup! Connect with Vincent Gigi Marino: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/vincentgigimarino?igsh=OWFnaXVzbmF1cHho Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/share/1BTZECv73r/?mibextid=wwXIfr Email: [e-mail] Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DS1H3G8Y?fbclid=PAZnRzaANSrp1leHRuA2FlbQIxMQABp9PbXEZe2c1gZWOBz2vKWLOKCDHIRM8a4uEVl0wCv_qNJx2zg_VkTNTV_44L_aem_pQiGaslTt54dohOKzlJj-w Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction & Big Reflections on Life 01:18 – Growing Up Boston Tough 03:25 – Family Secrets That Changed Everything 06:33 – Childhood Discipline, Sports & Survival Lessons 09:40 – Almost a Cop… Then Everything Changed 13:08 – First Steps Into Crime 16:14 – Stickups Gone Wrong & Bank Robbery Chaos 22:22 – Nightclubs, Hustling & Building a Reputation 25:32 – First Prison Sentence: The State Bid 33:38 – Gun Cases & Federal Time in the 80s 41:46 – Riots, Violence & Survival in Prison 53:11 – Back on the Streets & Wild Turmoil 57:03 – Double Crosses & The Feds Closing In 01:00:51 – RICO Trials, Court Drama & Sentencing 01:04:40 – 35 Years Lost: Impact on Family & Life 01:07:39 – Federal Penitentiaries: Atlanta & Beyond 01:10:23 – Jailhouse Law: Litigating & Helping Inmates 01:15:01 – Prison Gangs, Scams & Daily Hustles 01:22:10 – Stickup Crews & Contraband Behind Bars 01:26:01 – Staff Retaliation & Endless Transfers 01:31:16 – Daily Life, Prison Rules & Harsh Lessons 01:34:41 – Loss, Family & Harsh Sentencing Truths 01:35:36 – Writing a Book & Finding Growth Inside 01:36:23 – New Laws, Early Release & Freedom Adjustments 01:40:05 – Life After Prison: Struggles & Lessons Learned 01:45:01 – The Future, Redemption & Final Thoughts Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Bad advice? You talking to me? Kayak, got that right. I wasn't a good bank rob, I tell you true. When do you think you first started to get a reputation on the streets? A guy calls me up and says,

meet me, but don't bring a gun. That's the worst thing you're going to say to me, because you know I'm going to bring a gun. What was federal prison like back then in the 80s? They were killing each other back and forth. What do you think was the saddest moment during your prison sentence? From Boston streets to decades inside the federal prison system, Gigi Marino lived the life of a mobster

most people only see in movies, bank robberies, stickups, state time, and years in federal law. lockup. This is his story. Gigi, welcome to locked in. Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks for taking the time to make this happen. You don't really do too many interviews. A little hearing there. Yeah, you just got out of prison fairly recently. Yes, about a year ago. After almost a, what, a quarter century? You actually a little over. I did 28 straight years. I got to say, you look pretty good, just like Johnny Bart, who's sitting right next to me over here for

doing that much time. When you think, you know what, I realized when I was in the feds, there would be guys that would say, yeah, I just did my second 20 piece. And you look at them and you look how young they are. And on a 20, you do like 16 or something in the feds. Which is crazy. It's a lot of, it's a large amount of time. But it doesn't necessarily age them. No.

So moral of the story, you look pretty good for doing that much time. Yeah. Where do you grow up? I grew up in Revere. Okay. I was born in Boston, grew up in Revere, lived in E.C. and lived in a lot then. What was growing up like?

It was a lot of sports. involved. You know, we played football, baseball, basketball, hockey. Everything was sports-oriented. What did your parents do? My father died about two months before I was born, and my mother remarried, and he was a longshoreman. And so he was my stepfather, and my mother was basically a homemaker. Were you guys close? Your family, your stepdad? Yeah, we were pretty close. What about siblings? I have a full brother, Eddie, and I have a high. And I have a high, Half-brother, which I consider all of these my brothers and sisters, as four brothers and sisters.

I have a sister, Kim, and a brother Louis that died, and a brother Dorney. That's a longshoreman as well. What do you know about your dad before you were born? Actually, everybody kept it as a secret. It was a secret up until I was about 19, 20 years old, and I found out. And what did you find out? Actually, I found out in an amazing way.

I was at my house. I was living in the Vivaire Projects, and my stepfather came home. He was a big longshoreman, probably about 260, 265, strong, you know, because back then, everything was bulwark. It wasn't like the machines that they have today. So most of the longshoremen

were pretty tough and pretty rugged and pretty strong. And he wanted arm wrestle me. So I was like 19 years old. I was like, yeah, I'll fight Godzilla. I don't care. So I arm wrestled him. He was strong. it wasn't an easy bout, and I ended up beating him. He didn't like it. He says, okay, that was the left hand. He goes, let's try the right. And it was a rough, you know, it wasn't easy. I beat him righty. Then he flipped the table over. I still laughing through the whole thing. And then he starts

throwing punches. He says, listen, you're a pretty strong guy, pretty tough guy. Can you take these punches? I'm like, blocking him, no problem. And I was just taken as a joke. And he was probably like half joke, half serious. And my mother walked into room and said, hey, take your effing hands off my son. And I was like, what? I was like, what, what do you mean? My son. Like, it was just, you know, it was just a shock to me. And that's when you found out that he wasn't really your dad? Yeah, I found out that he wasn't really my dad. And it kind of changed my whole life, you know, upside down. I jumped on my bike and just kept driving through the cities and, you know, crying or whatever. And, you know, it was an impact on my life because I was lied to. I was deceived.

Why do you think your mom kept that a secret all those years? Well, she didn't want it to be like an embarrassment with two, you know, kids with different names. You know what I mean? That was her whole thing. And she probably didn't want me to know the other side of my family, which was the Shaka Sasan side, which is the Marino side. So she illegally, I was an identity theft victim at age two. She illegally changed my name to her new husband's name, which was Portella. So like a lot of people get mixed up in the name.

So you'll hear Jiji Portela because I grew up as a. Vincent Gigi Portela. But then when I found out my true biological name, I changed it back legally due to the biologics of my father, you know, show respect to my father that died. So it changed it back to what his originally name was Vincent Michael Marino. So that's why you'll see the two different names, like my indictment will say, Vincent Michael Marino, also known as Gigi Portela. Did everyone call you Gigi growing up?

They did. And that name came from my grandfather on my mother's side with the, which was the Napal of Don side outside of Rome. And his name was Vincent Gigi Santopio. Santopio's pizza, those are like my cousins. And there were one of 18 brothers and sisters. And when they came over into America, they had to feed the kids. So one was the same stretch.

One was a pizza maker. One was a boxer. One was a Shylock. One was a bookmaker. I mean, they all had some type of trait to feed the family. And it was, like I said, 18 brothers and sisters. and they grew up, you know, grew up hot. And they have no, you know, sneakers, no clothes, no shoes.

And, you know, that's how they grew up when they first came over. Did your mom raise you in an Italian culture? They did. She did. And what was that like? Pretty rough. I mean, there were big disciplinarians. I mean, they're not like today, you know, don't do that. You just get hit with a, you know, a spoon, get hit with a board.

You know, something gets broken over your back. You know what I'm saying? They were really rough in them days. But, you know, you had to be strong-minded to withstand all that. I looked at it as a positive thing. Not that I'm promoting violence towards kids. I don't, but I do promote discipline. And that's what a lot of kids lack today

because they get things handed to them and they grow up like a prima donna. And they kind of grew up with this entitlement card where if you grow up as a girl or a guy, you're not going to be satisfied because you've got everything handed to you. And you had no discipline so you don't know what's right, what's wrong.

There's consequences and respect for your family. What do you think was your favorite childhood memory? Oh, wow. I like playing sports. I think all sports. You know, hockey, street hockey, football, baseball, basketball, hockey. That was like, that's what we live for. Why do you think you gravitated towards sports? Because of the physical aspect of it. You know what I mean? The competitive aspect of it. Would you have considered yourself kind of like a tough? I was definitely a very athletic person and I pretty much excelled in it. sport. How are you doing in school grade-wise? I really didn't.

I mean, I like school. I love school, but I wasn't like, I wouldn't I would have paid attention more if I had to do it again. You know what I'm saying? I didn't concentrate more on athletics than I did on schoolwork. What do you think was your worst childhood memory? You know,

there was times where my stepfather he liked to drink a lot and he would get violent, but you know, like I said, it all comes down to your mind. You have to have a strong mind. You know what I mean? So there was a lot of violence in the family in that regards. You know, anytime there's alcohol involved in alcoholics, you're always going to have violence.

What was your mindset in your teenage years? Actually, believe it or not, when I left high school, I belonged to a boxing club, the Youth Center in Boston, smiling in Palatano was teaching everybody out of box. And I met a few people there that I became friendly with, and one day I was driving down the street and Broadway Revere, and one of the boxes that I was at the gym, it was hitchhiking. And so I picked him up.

I said, hey, where are you going? He goes, Boston State College. I'm taking a state civil service exam. You want to give me a ride? I said, yeah, get in. So as I'm driving him to the State Civil Service exam at Boston State College, he's trying to call me in to take an exam with him. So he finally did. He says, I think it was a $20 fee. I took the exam. I passed. He flunked. It went on end of being for the state police.

So now they ask me to go to the academy to do like a physical adjustment. agility test, which I passed fluently. You know, a three-mile run, carry a weighted body out of a car, all this type of stuff. So they end up interviewing me. They said, you know something, you're perfect for the job. You have no record. But proposition two and a half back in 1980 means we can't hire whites that score high on the exam. We have to hire people that scored 60s that were a minority, such as black, Spanish, and Indian. They said, you don't fit that. I. I don't fit that. I I go, well, I think I might be Indian. I tried that. It didn't work.

I'm not a member of a tribe. So they wouldn't give me the job because I wasn't considered a minority under proposition two and a half. So I never got the job. So there was a chance in your lifetime you could have been a... Actuality, yes. That's crazy to think about. It's crazy since 1980. And I remember driving down the street, and I did like a, call like a Batman of 360 with my Cadillac.

And all of a state police pulled up on me, pulled me over. And he goes, you know something? my ID, he looked at, he goes, I did your back down ground investigation. He goes, and you got fucked. He goes, I'm letting you go. He goes, because you should have, you should have got the job, and you didn't. And people that were less qualified, you got the job and gave me, threw my license at me and let me go. What do you think I interested you in that career at that point in time? I kind of think that I'm more like, I guess the prestigiousness of having a job like that. You know what I mean? I think that would have been number one. And, you know, just,

Just, you know, make sure, you know, to protect the women and children and the community type of thing. When you'd be in prison years later, did you ever think back on that moment that you get in? I have. I have thought back. Yeah. And it just happened. And sometimes things happen for a reason. You know what I'm saying? Guys, enter the room. Meet first. Blue Chew isn't just a tablet. It's a cheat code for your crotch. Stronger, harder, longer lasting. Like your junk just signed a record deal. Blue Chew is the original brand offering chewable tablets for better sex. Last time I used one of Blue Chew's tablets,

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Big thanks to Blue Chew for sponsoring the podcast. So what happens when you don't get into the force? When I don't want? Get into the force, into the police. Well, then I worked all my life pretty much. I started working washing dishes at 13 at Durgan Park. I worked at a deli department. I worked pumping gas.

I worked in construction. I worked as a bouncer in a nightclub. I, you know, I just had to try to find a way. I end up owning a restaurant in Everett called Something Fishing. That was years ago. You know that's the name of my dad's catering company. Is it really? Something's Fishing.

Isn't that amazing? That's so funny. That is amazing. Yeah, something fishing. The cops used to drive by it and says something fishy going on in there. And they certainly thought there was. You never went to college. Actually, I believe it or not, I went to Bunker Hill Community College.

They called that in Charlestown. They called it a bank robbery school. I went there for like six months a year. Did you learn out of a bank? I didn't learn out of rob a bank. I wasn't a good bank robber bank rob, I tell you the truth. I had some catastrophe fees, but... So up until college, you had never gotten in trouble in your life?

Actually, no, I was actually pretty clean. I didn't even have a parking ticket. Did you do anything and never got caught for anything in your childhood? Probably in the... early 80s, I would say, yes. And that was pre-teen, or that was like pre-20 or? I would say, I'll say in my 20s. In your 20s? Early 20s. Is that when things start to shift in your life? Well, that's what we were shifting. Because remember, I found out that I was deceived, which you never wanted to deceive your kids. You always want to be honorable to your kids and be telling them the truth

because that's not going to be good because, you know, it can have an impact on their minds adversely. one of the things is never deceive your kids and never force them to do things they don't want to do. In other words, you want to play sports, you play sports. If you want to play hockey, they want you to play baseball. You should be able to play what you want to play. You understand? As an example. So do you go on a deep dive in that moment and find out your kind of your roots?

I kind of was like, yeah, I was kind of like I was cheating in society. You know what I'm saying? And I kind of lean more towards, you know, criminal activity. Was that because of your dad's side? I'm thinking not so much because of the side, but because I was deceived. Was your dad involved in criminal activity? When he was younger, he actually died at 22 years old, God versus Soul. I guess he was involved with some things at 22.

He was young when they had you. He was young, right. How old was your mom? My mother, she was born in 1940. She's deceased now. She died in 2017. She died at 77. So she was five years older than your dad?

Yeah, he was actually. Actually, no. My father was born in 38. She was like two years older. No, my father was two years older than her. Okay. Yeah. Do you end up moving out of town when that all happens? Actually, because me and my stepfather were at odds with each other. It was basically after that situation, it was basically me or him. And of course, that's when I got thrown out and pretty much to the streets. And I worked as a bouncer and I worked at, you know, certain jobs. When do you start turning towards crime? Right around that time. Do you remember the first crime you got in trouble for? I didn't get in trouble for a lot of them.

It was mostly, I was pretty good as a stick-up guy for a while. A stick-up guy? Yeah, I was pretty good at it. How do you learn to do that? Trial and error, like I did with the legal work. Wait, so you just get the idea in your mind to do that? Yeah, it was just aggression. Try to get aggression out.

Nobody ever got hurt, but, you know, I was actually pretty good at it. And you think the aggression came, from your mom? From being deceived. Not so much decided my family that I've discovered but more because I was deceived

and I felt like I got gypped in society and then of course my father died before I was born that was also a contributing factor. Now when you're doing stickups is that innocent people

or is that people that are involved in crime as well? Both both. Pretty much both but nobody innocent there was no women's children ever got hurt or nothing like that.

And that's like on the streets or are there like places? Yeah, streets. Now the bank robbery thing you were telling about. I'm terrible. I'm terrible. The bank, it's funny how the thing went down. It was over the statute of limitations.

Nobody can get in trouble. What happened was I roll into the north end of Boston, to little Italy section of Boston, and I seen an old-time wise guy. And I wanted to pull him up because there was two guys directing, like in the middle of the traffic, like both had suits on. And I was like, who are these guys?

He goes, that's FBI agent John Conley. And the guy in the left is Eddie Walsh, who's deputy superintendent of Boston police. He goes, when they're down here, there's no crime ever happens, and they got this whole city under control. I said, what do they think? They're like, Prince of the City here? He says, yeah. I said, all right. I said, what's up with that bank?

He goes, what about it? I go, they're, like, near the bank, and they're, like, drinking their coffee. I go, do they go for a coffee break? He goes, they do. So I wait for them to go for a coffee break and rob the bank. Because I did it was because every time they're down there, they think there's no crime. They thought they took over the city. You know, two Irish cops coming in the neighborhood, you know, taking over an Italian neighborhood.

So I did it more for spite. So I got away. The alarm went off. It was catastrophe. I mean, the frigging dye went off. It was horrible. There was smoke. Oh, it was amazing.

But, you know, there was so much work involved. I wasn't about to let this money go. It was like $15,000. I said, fuck. So I threw it to the side until it smolded off the, you know, because the gas that was coming out of it. I put it in a bag. took a back and I scrubbed it and I cleaned it up. I ended up getting nil for possession of so on bank money

because they couldn't actually identify me in the bank but they also identified the money had some certain chemical that was related to a red dye and that's how, so I ended up pleading guilty and got a plea on that. Did you rob it with a gun or a note? A gun. And back then that was more common or the notes you had to do it? Yeah, there was no nose.

So you had to do it the real way. And that's like put a mask on or there's a camera? Yeah, I'd have a mask. And so that was back in the day when you could rob a bank and actually get money. Yeah. You know the funny thing about it was from after after that robbed a freaking bank, right? And I get away. It was, you know, it wasn't a professional job.

I wasn't a great bank robber. But after I get away, I had a fence guy, won't mention his name, that was down to North then. I would be selling high-end items like manks and links and diamonds and anything. Because he always paid me good. So I always brought my stolen stuff to him. So he called me up and frantic. He goes, you got to come down here now. This is after the bank robbery.

I go, why? He goes, it's real important. This is really life of debt. So I come down, I got a 357 on me. So he's like, hey, you don't come down here on him. I go, why not? I show him the gun. He goes, oh, my God, I knew you were crazy.

He goes, I got to tell you they want that money back. I go, what money? He goes, that bank, you robbed that bank. It was owned by the underboss of New England mop. I go, I don't care who owns it. I go, do you get that money back? There's a lot of fucking work involved there. There ain't nobody getting this money back.

He goes, well, the execution of the neighborhood wants to see you. I go, he wants to see me about what? He goes, about the bank. I already told you, nobody's getting the money back. He goes, you've got to be careful of this guy. They call him the zipper. I go, what's the zipper? He disciplines people in the neighborhood with a straight-edge razor and he slices their face.

I go, listen, I'm telling you right now, I'm not like these kids in this neighborhood. I'm not that type of kid that, you know, you're going to do that to. He goes, what do you mean? I go, listen, if the guy scratches his balls and I'm going to pluck and blast him right in the place. He goes, oh, my God, why are you going to do that? I go, so I'm not going to let nobody put their hands on me. So I go to the meeting. I'm ready.

He don't even mention the armed robbery. He just wants me to get tires for his car. He has a brand-new Mercedes. I said, yeah, I'll get it for you. He goes, I'll pay you good. I go, don't worry about it. So I got him the tires. He asks to pay me.

I said, no, this one's on me. But the bank never came up. And how would they even have proved it was you anyways? The only one that knew that was the fencer. How they were? How did he have even approved that you were the one that robbed the bank? Well, because, you know, the neighborhood. And plus, you have FBI agent John.

Conley running around the neighborhood and Eddie Walsh, Deputy Superintendent, telling everybody I robbed the neighborhood. Trial to rile up the neighborhood on me. They were all my friends over there. And he was a corrupt FBI? He was a corrupt FBI agent. He got 40 years for a murder in Florida. Oh, wow.

Yeah. And that was during your time that he was out. Yes, and he actually targeted me because he was so mad about me robbing the bank under his nose. I did it more for spite than anything. Now, who is that New England mob that owned that bank? They said Jerry and Jullo. We actually became a good friend of mine.

and 87 in Charles Street jail and 92 and 11 were penitentiary. So was that, they were running that area at that time? I guess, yeah, although they were real strong there. That was probably his bank, but hey, like anything else, you're insured. I didn't know mobs ran banks. Oh, they, I mean, hypothetically, everybody was involved with whatever. But this guy had this bank and, you know, it was a nice little bank, you know what I mean? Actually, had $350,000 a safe.

I just couldn't get to it. I was looking for it. But I didn't know it was his bank either. Now with fencing, how does that work? Like when you bring someone... Right. If you get some hard items, like I was getting high-end stuff like lynxes and minks and three-carat diamonds and, you know, all kinds of high-end items. And what you do is you have it appraise and use yourself for about a third. But I had a great fence guy because a lot of these fence guys tried to jip you.

And he was paying me good money, so I brought everything to him. And how often do you find these fence guys rat on the actual person? Very really, but you have them. Believe me, they're out there. And they basically have to undercut you so they can make a profit. Exactly. So if I'm giving it to them for a third, like I saw this three-carat diamond, I think it was worth like $20,000.

I think I let it go for like $7,000 or something like that. You know, they're going to sell it for $10,000, $15,000. I'll keep it for their wife or their girlfriend. Yeah, because there's a big risk on them, too, for even having that product. Right. Now, nowadays, everything's serial numbers and this and that. It's very difficult to do anything today because of the cameras and all the surveillance and all the technology involved.

But back then, you could pretty much do anything. Did you try to do other bank robberies after that, or you let it stop? I could stay away from banks. It was too messy. The figure, I was blowing up and everything, so it pretty much stood away from that. What did you go into next? I kind of like nightclubs, restaurants, stuff like that. And how would that work?

Well, the guy gave me a score, what I was saying specifically. And what happened was I walk into this nightclub. I can't get into this nightclub unless I have a tuxedo one. It's one of them high-end places. So I get in there. and now it happened to be in the back of the room at a certain time. So I said, so everything's on time clock when the money goes in, the money goes out.

So I happened to get there because I used to work at a nightclub. Everybody's coming up to me that know me, hey, you know, bend in my ear. I got to shake these guys because I got to be in the back. And it was difficult because it would bend in my ears. Listen, I got to go to the bathroom. I'll be right back. Boom, I took off and went to the back. So I went to the back.

I got somebody with me, right? So I got to hide in the place, and the place is dark. It's a restaurant pot that's close. at the time during the nightclub hours. Now, the schedule was he was supposed to come in, and I was supposed to get him coming in to get the money. But because these guys were bending my ear, I was late. But while I was waiting for him to come in or come out,

the guy I'm with, it's getting scared. I go, what's the matter? He goes, I see a cop outside directing traffic. I go, good, we got good security. Don't worry about it. He goes, no, I want to get out of here. I was, listen, nobody's leaving. You got me in here.

We're finishing this. So when the guy was supposed to come in because I was late, he was actually leaving. And if I don't get him before he gets to the outside where the party is, you know, where the crowd is in the club, the whole thing's going to be blown. So as I'm coming out of my spot, this guy looking at me, he starts running. I go, oh, this is not good. He's running to get to the outside. So I got to put race him to get to him and grab him before he gets out there because then it's going to be blown.

I got him right in time. and I asked him, I go, you know, how much money is in there? He goes, there's no money. So I had to convince him to tell me the truth. A couple times cracked him. He said, listen, is there any money now? He goes, yeah, there's thousands and thousands. We went back there and got it off.

Left. And these are restaurants and nightclubs? Or just nightclubs? It was a restaurant. The place was huge. Brought in good money. Well, how often do you go there to that same spot? Oh, I actually never been there.

I just went there that night to get the money. Oh, so that was just a one-time thing. Yeah, that was a one-time thing. But when I went there, people recognized me because I used to work at the nightclub. Okay. But you can't juice that same person consistently. Can't what? Juice them like that's a one-time hit and that's it?

Yeah, you don't want to come back. Okay. And you definitely don't want to be hanging there after anyway, even though he had something on. You don't think they knew it was you? No, they definitely didn't know it was me because I had gloves and I had... And it's over the statute of limitations like 40 years ago.

No, I'm saying back then if they knew it was you. I mean, if I went into my face, they probably would have. Okay. You got to change your appearance. When do you think you first started to get a reputation on the streets? Probably in the 80s. I was saying in the 80s.

Well, in high school I always had a reputation, but a reputation as an athlete. You know, I would always pretty, you know, go with my hands, that type of reputation. But then as the 80s went from the 80s to the 90s, it kind of escalated. And what was that reputation coming? Probably as somebody that would use his hands quick,

use a knife, or use a gun quick, if necessary. But never as a reputation as a bully and never is a reputation of I would never hurt women or children ever. How did your mom feel about your newfound lifestyle? I'll tell you one day. She called me up and says, what are you doing? I go, why? She goes, the police just called here.

I go, for what? She says, they said you grabbed $30,000 in diamonds. I said, 30,000 in diamonds. That's not true. So what happened was I have to walk into a diamond place. And I picked out two diamonds. one was 20,000, one was 10,000 I was holding it, and I got mugged.

You believe I got mugged. I was a victim of a crime. You got mugged. Yeah. So they said that I scammed them. That's funny. You believe that? I got mugged. Fucking victim.

It was only in my 20s. Did your mom come to find out pretty quickly what you were getting yourself into? Ah, little by little. She would see things. Like, you know, would you get that money, this and that, but she would have no.

Now, take us to your late. 20s and early 30s. What was that like at that point? Well, there was a lot of prison time in between because I did all together. I did 35 years. I did 28 straight on this one. It was turbulent. You know, it was some good times. It was some bad times. You know what I'm saying? When was the first time you got popped and went to prison? Okay. That was, oh, it was receiving stolen property in New Hampshire. I got popped there. I put out to a one and a half to two year bid. I had no record. And I did a bid there, and I got out.

Can you tell us that story, what you got popped for? Oh, this was weird. This was freaking weird. Literally, waiting outside to stick up a fucking restaurant, right? So now there's three of us. So cops pull up on us. We take off. It was a high-speed chase.

So we throw the guns out the window, and one of the guys in the vehicle flips. And they told so many different stories. The cops didn't even believe them. You know what I mean? So we had a suppression of him to get rid of the stories they were telling him. One said we were robbing the club. Another one thought he was going to throw him off for saying we weren't robbing the club.

We were rob a drug dealer. I think it was legal to rob a drug deal, but you can get in trouble for robbing drug dealers. So it just kept getting worse. But neither one of them were believable. So we had a suppression and we ended up being that, which was good. Because now we're just down to a stolen car and the firearms they found to the side of the road, which they can really connect other than the informant in the car. So my lawyer was smart, Alphari Senior.

This guy would have been a judge. He was super, super intelligent. He said, listen, I'm out of handling these guys up here. It was in Hampshire, so I had a Boston lawyer, and we had to hire a New Hampshire lawyer. Because if you don't have a license, you have to have somebody that's at the table as your defense attorney has a license in that jurisdiction, which was in Hampshire. So I had to hire two lawyers. And this guy was phenomenal. He goes, look at, he goes, the judge likes me.

He goes, look. He goes, let's get rid of the stolen cop. He goes, we'll plead out to the stone car. And we'll plead out to the guns. He says, Your Honor, receiving a stone property. Take the deal. I go, really? He goes, yeah, you're only getting one a half, kid.

You'll probably got a server a year. I go, all right, take the deal. We took the deal. How integral was it to having a good lawyer in your line of work back then? It's very, very important. You have to have a lawyer that's on his game to shop. If not, you know, you could be sewn up the river. And how do you find that right lawyer for you?

I usually word them out. You know what I mean? Usually word them out. I mean, it's not like today with the technology where you can Google this, Google that. You had to really know who was who. And it had to be one that you could trust that wasn't working with it. It had been one that you trust, absolutely.

Because there's probably a lot of like rat ones too. Oh, yeah, you got plenty of them. Plenty of them to give you up in a second. And once you find the right lawyer, he sticks with you for forever. Usually, yeah. Yeah, this lawyer was phenomenal. He was really good. What was prison like that first time?

Fun. I'm Michael Lydie. you. Workout time. Sports, just like I did in the projects and revere projects. Workout, you know, sports, you know, eat right. You know what I mean? To me, it was fun. And how are you treated in prison? Did you have a big enough? I was treated pretty good. I mean, you know, I was quick with my hands,

but when necessary. You know what I mean? I only had to use them a few times. And it worked out good for me. What was one of the first times you had to use your hands in prison that first time? I forget. Some guy tried me in the wreck yard, I dropped them, and they should have made a big deal out of it because he was doing life. but ended up getting worked out. Now, in state president at that time, was there gangs, was their cars? How did people?

Oh, there was, yeah. You can remember now we went up to New Hampshire, so we're doing time in another state, so we're really at a disadvantage. It was only three or four guys from Boston. Now there's probably hundreds of Boston guys up in New Hampshire. But when we were up there, it was only a handful of us. And you guys ran as Boston people or Italian? We ran the Boston Italian.

We ran the Boston Italian, but we got along with everybody. And that was a pretty short bid that time. Yeah, it was only like probably a year, year behind the walls and the state prison, Concord, and then like maybe six months out in the, you know, minimum security, I had no record. When's the next time you get in trouble? Hmm, that's a good question. I think it was a fire round, 1989. And how old were you in 1980s?

My 20s, my late 20s, well, 27. What happens with that story? That's a weird story. A guy calls me up and says, meet me, but don't bring a gun. that's the worst thing you're going to say to me because you know I'm going to bring a gun. So I show up with a gun and my friends got guns. You know what I mean?

Because you made me power not to bring a gun. So why do you want to, you know, why are you telling me not to bring a gun? So I got arrested by the state police, which I would only done one year about Lee Fox law and they carried it over into the federal because they were trying to squeeze my balls on their slimy attempt.

So they gave you fed time for that gun? They gave me fed time for the gun. But the way it works is your priors. if you have a lot of priors, you're going to do more time. In other words, some people for a firearm can do 15 to life because I'm correct criminal. But if you don't have prior predicates, you're not going to do that much time.

So if I was charged in the state, I would have done one year about Lee Fox law. I was sought federally, I'm facing a year to 15 months. But because they try to squeeze my balls concerning the slimy attempt that day, because it was seven hours after the attempt, they end up enhancing you for this, for that, and the other thing,

before you know you're doing double the time you would have gone normally or a normal person would have gone. So did you guys get pulled over on the way there? No, we were actually talking. I was talking to one guy in the vehicle and then there's just, hey, police just jumped out and, you know, Pat searched us and found the guns.

So there was an insider, you think? It could have been. I think it could have been. Because, you know, two guys slipped off the whole thing. There was four of us. Only two of us got nailed. Now, was this the first time you were ever put on the Fed's radar or you think you were on it before? I think it was on it before in the 80s for bank robberies and armored cars. But they never did anything?

No. Oh, can you tell us a good-to-armored car story? Pretty, I mean, there was one successful one. I mean, guys pull up, right, in a phone company truck dressed as phone men and jump out with Uzi's and walked away with about 150. $150,000. Yeah, it was pretty good. That was a good one.

That was a good one. Then there was not so good ones when you didn't get nothing. This episode is brought to you by prize picks. You and I make decisions every day, but on prize picks, being right can get you paid. Don't miss any of the excitement this season on prize picks

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here's the deal. Download the app today and use code Ian Bick to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. That's code Ian Bick to get $50 in lineups after you play your first $5 lineup. Prize picks, it's good to be right. Now, do you ever have the guys that are running the truck like we see in the movie? No, I wish I did. Man, I wish I had them. You want them to fight back? Yeah, I wish I had one of them that would have been beautiful. You know what I mean? Because you could probably take the whole truck. But you don't want them to fight back and someone dies. Oh, no, no, no, no.

What do you mean? What was the question? I meant, like, in the movies, sometimes you see the guards fight back. What do you mean, shoot back? Yeah. Oh, no, there was a couple of that. Yeah, that was definitely prevalent, for sure. Did you ever see, what's that movie?

Heat? No, the other one. No, not the town. The other one that came out with Gerard Butler. No, what was that? And 50 Cent, where they robbed the armored car? I don't think I've seen that one. Oh, Den of Thieves, yeah.

Yeah, I don't think I've seen that. You've got to watch that. I'll have to watch that. Yeah, that's what I agree. Yeah, I don't think I've seen that one. Yeah, we had some successful ones, but I'm successful ones. So how much time do you end up getting for this gun charge in the feds? Okay, now, if you don't have no record, like I said, in the state, it will only be one year, Bali Fox.

And back then, in 89, the statute was zero to five. Then it jumped from zero to ten. And, of course, if you have the prior predicate violent convictions, it can go 15 to life. you can get, you know, anywhere from 15 to life. But because you don't, I didn't have the prior predicate convictions. I had no violent or drug convictions. So I was only facing, like I said, a year in the state. And the federal was like 15 months.

They ended up giving me 30 months, which really wasn't bad, but I should have only gone maybe. I was on the guideline for like 12 months. So if you realistically, if you don't have a record and you get charged federally, and like I said, you're only looking at a year in the state. You're probably only looking at a year or two. Now, aren't there some mandatory minimums in the feds for gun charges as a phone? Right, now it's been changed and it's been evolving throughout the years.

Like I said, the statute was 922G1, Chapter 44 Code 18, and it's zero to 10. Now it'll go according to your prior predicates. So you can do anywhere from, say, the year, up to 10. But where it jumps extravagantly is because of your prior predicates. What was federal prison like back then in the 80s? Wow, it was a lot sweeter because they had everything. You know, after the crack riots of 95, everything went to, you know, one key to lock everybody down because, you know, they were destroying everything. But before it was nice.

You had movie, you can go to the movies and the weekends. They had popcorn and sodas and beans, like beans outside. It was really sweet. You had a full breakfast. Now everything is really, really tight. Yeah, I heard you could get a made-to-order breakfast. Ah, well, were you in line? Yeah, you could pick what you wanted back then.

But no way now, forget it. You're lucky you get that in a backhander. What prison did they send you to? Oh, I was everywhere. Like, what did you bid now? During the 80s. Okay. Well, I was in Danbury at one point.

You were in Danbury in the 80s? Yeah, I had the kid, it was super because I was actually living pretty good there. And what happened was I was working in the vegetable rooms. They had these knives where they were attached. you know, with like a steel cord. And you chopped the vegetables in the morning. So we had a radio on there. And the kid from the bakery said, hey, listen, I get here.

You get here at six. I get here at four. Can I use you guys radio? I said, yeah, no problem. You can use the radio. I said, but make sure when we, you know, when we get in at 6 o'clock, we get the radio back. Lo and behold, he uses the radio. He don't want to bring it back.

And so he got a little wise with me. And so I said, come on, let's just, because I wasn't about talking. Let's just handle this in the freezer. We went in the freezer, boom, one shot, spit his lip or face or whatever. And it looked worse than what it was. It was really nothing. Because you had white on, by you have him white on,

you know, blood short looks worse than it is. And so I had like a little mark. I still have the mark right here. And what I did was I just wrapped my hand up and walked out of there, got away. And this guy just blood all over the place and it was a mess. So, of course, he told on me. And later I get arrested and brought to the hole and all this type of stuff.

But I ended up getting thrown out of the endberry because of it. He originally told my friend was sweeping the lieutenant's office, well, mentioned his name. He stole the whole file, which was beautiful. I mean, there was no evidence, no pictures, no nothing. By then I'm sending a commissary to guy, cigarettes. I had cigarettes over there. Trying to bribe the guy not to tell.

And I ended up getting him not to tell, so he recanted, which was perfect. And they couldn't find his original statement. So I beat the charge. I got out for one, not even a day, two hours. And when the SIS seemed that I was out, he goes, what are you doing out? I go, I beat the charge. He goes, you can't be on this compound. You assault on one of my inmates.

Sent me back to the hall and I got shipped. But they couldn't give me a disciplinary transfer. They gave me administrative. That was Danbury, Connecticut. Wait, how did they get into the lieutenant's office? Was it not a separate building back then to get the paperwork? Because, no, it was, in other words, because it was a law. Danbury's a law.

So some people have jobs sweeping. Some people have jobs. he's seen the pictures on the thing. He put the whole thing under his file. Put it right under his shirt. So I seen him on a fitz. He goes, you're good. I go, what are you?

I'm good. I'm in the hole. He goes, no worry about it. Everything is, evidence is gone. He goes, I chopped it up and flushed it all. They go, beautiful. So by then, I'm already trying to calm the kids, sending them food, send them cigarettes, and everything else.

And anyway, long story shot. Long story shot, he, he ended up not telling at the end. Like, he recanted. You know what I mean? I don't know why this is not shutting off. So would he had been safe for not telling, or for recanting, or would you guys still would have attacked him?

Oh, I would have went, I would have went to, I would have went to a medium institution. And, but because I beat the charge, even though they didn't want me on the compound, the cops, I had an administrative transfer, which is equivalent to where I was at, which was a low, and I went to, like, Loretto.

But the kid, say everything worked down, you would have been able to stay? Would you have hurt him? Realistic? No. He would have been treated like gold. I would have took care of him. I would forgot everything.

Even though he snitched to begin with? I would have let it go because this is how I look at it. Okay, the guy snitch, he recanted, but I got out. But he probably wouldn't have been comfortable with me on the compound with him. I would have let it go because you got to know when to hold them, when to fold them. You know what I mean? I don't agree with people snitching at all. But you got to, like I said, you got to know when to hold them when to fold them.

I can't believe you brought him into the freezer. I had to do it. It was quick. I'll tell you, he definitely didn't use the radio after that. Now, back then, what was the contraband? Because now there's phones and stuff, but in the 80s, what was the contraband? Where in. In federal prison, say in Dambe.

Oh, shit. In Dambe, they had everything. I mean, phones were probably, well, when I was there, it was no phones. But I heard later on there was phones. Well, like some older phones, like those brick phones they were getting? Oh, them brick phones were nice. Them motor rolls? Man, you hit somebody over the head.

It won't even break the phone. They were good. I remember when they first came out, there was like $5,000. Then they went down to $4,500. I actually bought it once, $2,500. Now they were worth nothing today, probably $100. And the politics back then, what was that?

The law was not so much politics as, of course, the pen. Now, that's a whole different animal there. A lot of politics in the pen. So back then in the 80s, there was no politics in Danbury? Back in the 80s, I mean, if a guy was a sex offender or a rat, you would have a problem anywhere. I don't care if you run up in a freaking halfway house. You know what I'm being?

But the sex offenders right now, they're pretty much taking over the prisons. I mean, they're in the lows. They can't go to camp because of the public safety factor. They're in the lows heavily, and now they're in the mediums. Now what happens is the warning threatens everybody on the compound and say, listen, if you touch anyone, one of these guys,

you're going to pick up a hate crime. So they're, like, protected. But in the pens, nobody can't. can help them. They're going to get hurt. All right. So you get kicked out the dam bear and then you go to the medium. Which medium was it? No. Because it wouldn't have been a disciplinary medium because remember I beat the shot. I had to go to an equivalent

low. I went to Loretto. And then I got released from Miletto because I only had like a hundred twenty days left. And back then they had parole. No, because that was private 87. I was 89. I missed it by two years. Yeah, no parole. It was all supervised release. Yeah. I always thought I'd get parole, but then I realized I looked at it up and I was like, oh, wow, did they get heard of this in the 80s?

Supervised release. And then I'm on supervised release. I think I set a world record because I was only supervised release for like 35 days. And what happened? Oh, whatever. That was catastrophe. That was a story and a half. So I'm in the little early section of Boston and North End, and I'm in my vehicle. So some kid ran his mouth, so he got cracked, right? So the guy must have been on drugs or something because he ran to the state police and told him my pistol weapon shot at him. It never even happened, believe me when I tell you.

but the newspapers, and even it made court, it also made the law books. The lie made the law books. How do you like that one? He told to say, please, I pistol weapon shot, and I was trying to kill him, shot out of his car, whatever. It never even happened. All it was a sucker punch, and that was a very, very expensive sucker punch. Believe me when I tell you. When it was all said and done, I ended doing two more years on that, and it cost me,

I don't know how much for the lawyer. I had to give him my bends. I had a 380sL bends. I had to give them that in cash to represent me, and I had a state charge over it. And we had a suppression hearing. And when we had the suppression hearing, in actuality, this guy ended up coming in for me and actually saying it wasn't me. But that in 25 cents didn't stop anything because I still did two years on a supervised release

violation. Who was this kid? Actually, he did the right thing at the end. Kid name was Dennis. And like I said, it was only a sucker punch, but he must have been doing drugs and hallucinating or something. something. But I end up doing two more years in federal prison over that. Was he just a random kid or someone in your career?

He wasn't even in my circle. It was just some random kid that ran his mouth. You know what I mean? So they send you back to federal prison for two years? I went back for two years on that. And do they send you to the prison that you left from? Actually, no. They actually sent me to Levinwood Penitentiary, which the average time was 25 for life. Here I am doing a year. They call it a drunk beef. Like, I'm doing it. a year on a violation. I'm here

with people doing 25, you know, to life, you know what I'm saying? But the way I looked at it was workout time. You know, they had the, back then, they had the heavy bag, the speed bag, they had the handball courts, and they had, you know, it was a nice place. Why did they send you to a penitentiary? Because they wanted to,

because, you know, when you have overzealous prosecutors and agents, that's what they do. They want to make your life miserable. Yeah. So what was the penitentiary like that? It was a serious place. It was a serious place. Actually, I was in the middle of the riot there. I mean, people were actually getting killed, you know, over politics. It was mostly black on black. But, you know, I was in the middle of the riot there, and, you know, you had to

survive. Tell us about this riot. What was it like? Well, here's how it actually. What happened was, I'm walking the wreck yard. I don't know if you ever heard of Jerry and Jullo. Really nice guy. He was the guy that owned the bank, by the way. Here I am in prison with him. I mean, we never mentioned the bank job, by the way. He never asked me. I never volunteered it. That was only 15,000. I'm sure he was a tax write off. So we're walking the track together. This guy's doing 45 years. At the time, I was just doing that violation.

And he was a very, very intelligent, very smart guy, very comical. And I remember that day specifically, because he says, hey, you want to go to the, there's a movie, they're playing Silence of the Lim. You want to go to the theater? Let's go to the movie. I go, yeah, let's go to a movie. It was almost like a movie on the street, the way it was set up in there. But when the lights go out in there and you hear a scream in the movie, that's when somebody gets it. I mean, it's pitch black.

You can't see your hand in front of you. And all the Boston guys stayed together, but we sat in a chair and there was a space, and then there was another, somebody else would sit there and so on and so forth. And one side of the child, the right side, was all white, and the other side was all black. I won't say it was racism.

I was just say, that's the way it is in federal prison, especially in the penitentiary. You know, guys would be communicated with each other, but that's just the way it was. So what happened was if there was a scream, somebody would get stabbed and killed. And at the end of the movie, you'd see one day, some guy there would have a knife in his chest or in his neck or whatever. But it wasn't all the time. So anyway, get back to the right.

So the blacks were fighting. The D.C. blacks were fighting the Crips and the blood from California. Now the Crips and the bloods from California hate each other with a passion. But they hate D.C. worse. So they teamed up to fight D.C. because D.C.'s dick in the system. because every crime that's committed in D.C. is a federal crime, so then when they're in federal prison, they have numbers. They have a lot of people.

So they fought. They were killing each other back and forth. Had nothing to do with the whites, had nothing to do with nobody. But you know how it works in prison. Sometimes if the other side has knives and weapons and they got a couple under their belt, a couple of two or three murders under their belt, they might try to make it racist.

So the first thing I did was make weapons right away. I said, listen, let's do this. You know what I mean? So I had a good friend of mine. I don't know if you ever heard of Jimmy Cooner. The West East, they did a movie about him. Really good guy. He was right next to me to the whole thing.

So keep in mind, statute of limitations is up. This was back in 1992, I don't know how many years ago that was. But so I made weapons for everybody. And when I tell you weapons, I'm talking like I'm breaking chairs. I'm just making splintered woods, piece of steel. I pull out of the wall. I mean, we got weapons. We're armed up.

So after they just got killing, they're killing each other back and forth, 20 of them running to the movie theater after all their hits. You know, who knows? Maybe they'll go for Whitey, maybe not. But I'm just being ready. But they wanted peace. One of our guys who was half Italian, half Cuban, went in the middle of the floor and met with another guy.

They were in Marion. Back then, Marion was like Alcatraz. Then you know, then you came to Supermax, which is Florence, ADX. So back then that was the Supermax And they were born in Florence and Marion together And they met in the middle of the floor as a peace thing And he told us and tell your guys this is not racism We have no problems with the whites

We want you know all of us to stay together It's all of us against the cops and we did We all stood together Until them doors got blown out They blew out the doors because we had them barricaded With the chairs from the movie theater And they were coming in But before they came in, they gave a warning to the old people and the handicapped.

Use one out. Come out now because we're coming in with the tear gas. So a bunch of old people come up to me. I don't want to leave, I don't want to leave. I go, listen, go, it's going to get bad. Okay. I didn't take too long to convince him to leave, especially Jerry, but he was a nice guy. I said, Jerry, you're 70-something years old.

It's going to get bad. They're coming in with the tear gas. Goal. A couple people that weren't old and weren't handicapped, they left too. I go, don't worry. Got to get out of you. You want to go, go ahead. One guy was involved with the execution squad

and Walpole, and they sent him to the feds, but we won't mention anything because he was a really good guy. And he didn't want to get in trouble no more. I said, I don't blame you. Go. Get in the line with the old people. He's walking out of Olympan. So me, Jimmy, and a bunch of guys, we stood back,

and we knew what was going to happen next. I mean, you had a couple of crazy Boston guys there, too. They're coming in. They just blew open the doors with explosives because we had them barricaded. They're coming in with tear gas with petons. They're armed from their head with body armor and helmets. You're not hurting them.

And there's plenty of them. So what we decide to go is hold on to our weapons because now the cameras are coming in with it. If you have a weapon on, they're going to charge you. So let's work our way to the back. Don't drop our weapons to the last second because somebody could drop you, and we want to keep working our way to back.

We're not going to challenge them. But we've got a crazy couple of Boston guys that will challenge them. As soon as they come through the door, they get the hoses on them, They're falling over the place, like F Troop, and they hit them with a couple of, they had the walking tall sticks. They were hitting them with them.

You're not going to do none. Eventually they're going to overwhelm you, which they did. But we're working our way back. We're not stupid. But we're not going to drop the weapons until the last second, until they're pretty much brown, you know, breaking the door down where we're at. So we're working on our way back.

They had like a church. They already tear gas already went off. Some people are stupidly battling them, you know, because these guys are doing natural life. they got nothing to lose. And eventually, when it's all set and done, right, the last second, we dropped the weapons, they cupped everybody and brought everybody out. And what happened was they actually were really close to taken over the prison. The whole prison was surrounded by National Guard, state police, every law enforcement you can think of, because, you know,

here it is, the United States penitentiary being taken over by inmates. That was back in 92. too. So they came in and ended up clean up the dead bodies and whatever and this and that and we got gas and believe me, that freaking tear gas, it'll fuck you up. Now, you're someone that was just there on a violation. I was just here on a violation. Here I am in the middle of a riot where people getting killed. Did you have a choice to not get involved in that? No, I had no choice. I was in the movie there and it happened. I wasn't about to have not, you know, be ready. But do you feel like you loved that type of stuff? Like you lived for that?

I mean, back then, it was an adrenaline rush. Don't get me wrong. It definitely was. Of course, and nowadays, I would consider, you know, try to avoid that. Did you get extra time for being a part of that, right? No, because there was so many people. Their hands were got tied right in the shots. It was so many.

It was like 500 people involved. So you get out of that violation? I go, well, now, my case manager, who was a nice guy, come up to me, goes, why are you here? I go, you tell me. I did, what do you think? I walked in there and had a key to the door. He says, no, he goes, I can't understand why they were sending you here.

You only got six months left. but I was playing on the football team and I didn't want to leave. I was actually playing. It was rough because we had no pads and it was a lot of violence. And I love playing on the team. And my friend from Boston, I don't know if you ever heard of Jimmy Curranes, they blame him.

Jimmy Curran's, they blame him trying to kill the prosecutor in Texas where the judge got killed. It was a hit on both, the prosecutor and the judge. He was a Boston guy. It was a real good guy. It was like 6'5. He was like one of my favorite fans watching me play and he used to go to every game.

Because I used to do crazy stuff playing football. So my case manager tells me, you got, we're sending you a Raybrook. You're going to go to an FCI. You don't belong here. You only got six months left. Everybody's doing life here. You know what I mean?

The prosecutor rigged your paperwork to send you here. He says, I'm sending you out. I said, no, no, let me stay here because I'm playing on the football team. You've got no choice. He said, you're leaving. So all my teammates were mad at me. I said, my points dropped. I'm not supposed to be here.

You're mad at me. me. Well, we wanted you to play football. I said, I want to stay too and play football. They wouldn't, they had a transfer of me. You didn't think about just going, getting another charge in there? No, actually, no. I didn't pick up no charge. It was luckily. But then they sent me to Raybrook. And then from Raybrook, I finished and I got back out. Okay. What happens when you get out? Oh, wow, deck stacked. I mean, at the time, they had me suspect in trying to kill the boss in the wing of mob. And all my friends are in prison. So the deck is stacked.

So normal people would probably leave the state or not come out, you know, and not come around. But I'm not the normal person. So, you know, I'm like, here we go with the adrenaline rush again. Let's do this. You know what I'm saying? When did the killing happen after prison? Before, after, before.

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Even the Jeep Grill or registered trademarks of XIAUS LLC. And, okay, happened before. Everything was quiet. Then I got out, then everything got crazy again. And then, but before I got out, my, my adversary, Solemy, went on a killing spree. He ended up flipping going to witness protection program. So he went on a killing street, killed like 30 people. He was a mob, too?

Well, he was a guy that blamed me trying to kill. Oh, he's the one. He got shot up. So he got something to prove to everybody. So he went on a killing spree. So when he went on the killing spree, he's taken over all of New England. I get out of prison, all my friends are in prison. I'm out there pretty much by myself.

So things changed and people teamed up with, teamed up with so on and so forth. And then, you know, we had even the playing field. And this is the case that the feds would pick you up for? This is the charge. They said the conspiracy was from 89 to 96, and we got arrested in 96, 97, late, early 97, late. I got arrested late.

96 on a separate drug case coming from Boston to Arizona. And that's a funny story too because what happened with that one is, I mean, this kid was like my brother. This Italian kid and this Irish kid was like my brother. Both were wearing wives on me. And both of them didn't know about each other. One was white. McConnell was wired by the FBI. John Smiley Mealy from East Boston was wired by the DEA.

So John Smiley Mealy, while he's wired by the DEA, is targeting me and McConnell. McConnell's targeting, while he's wired by the FBI, talking to me and Mealy, not knowing that Mealy's an informant. So now, the way it works in the case law, prevailing case law says you cannot conspire with known agents or informants of the government. So therefore, the FBI informant is targeting me and Mealy. It's not a crime because he's an informant too, you know, Mealy. And Mealy's targeting me and McCormant.

is still not a crime because I can't conspire with agent or informants of the government. So what they were doing because they weren't working together because of the Conley Whitey-Bowzer fiasco, the DEA and the FBI split. Now they're all together, but they split because they didn't trust each other. You understand? Because the FBI was tipping off Whitey Bowser, Flemy, and Mercurio, while they were top echelano farmers. So the DEA just trusted them.

So they had both entities wired up against me. So what drugs were you moving from Arizona? So what happens is McConnell, while he was wired by the FBI, tried to get me to pull the trigger in Boston and wipe out a bike crew that I was actually friendly with the leader. I said, that's not happened. These guys are my friends.

You know what I mean? The FBI is telling him, just get him to pull the trigger. He even tried to get me a hand grenade to throw in the club on a meeting. I said, I'm not doing that. They just wanted me to kill somebody so they can arrest me for it. So I wasn't going for it. So McConnell was wired at the time.

time. Now, Meeley was trying to get me to go out to the West Coast. He wanted me to get me to go to Vegas to lose me up, go to Arizona, do a buy, go back to Boston, and he was going to send the drugs back from Arizona and Vegas to Boston. So he's wired, but he's targeting myself and McConnell, but it's not a conspiracy because McConnell's an informant. They don't know this at the time. McCarnow's targeting me and Maly. And trying to get us on a conspiracy, but can't because Mealy's an informant. So what it did was short-circuited. And the charge that I ended up pleading guilty for,

the government wasn't forthcoming in their discovery to reveal that McConnell was an informant until years later, after I took a 10-year plea concomit with my recall 35-year sentence. And I only took the plea was because they told my lawyer that if I don't take the plea, that my brother's going to get arrested for it. So my brother wouldn't take arrest. 10-year plea. So the FBI would have been okay with you killing someone? Well, they were instigating and fomententon violence. Well, they actually instigated for mental violence with the slammy. I didn't get to that part. Do you want me to

tell you about that? Okay. Well, what happened one day, I was walking to my house and Revere, three FBI agents approached me. John Conley, they got 40 years for a murder. Robert Cowan, who got thrown out of the FBI for choking out of federal prosecutor. And Michael Buckley, who slipped through at all, was worse than the other two. And he just slip to everything. They come up to me and they show their badges and say, FBI while I was walking into my house, they said, we want to speak to you. I go, speak to me about what?

We want to let you know that Frank Selimmy's trying to kill you. I go, really? I start laughing. They go, what are you laughing about? I go, listen, just don't come by here no more. They said, well, you know, we can help you. I said, see you later. Don't come by here. So now I'm thinking, who's this guy, Salemi?

This guy's a bomb expert. This guy was prevalent during the Irish gang wars. They wiped out 65 people, him and Boboza. This is somebody you've got to take serious. You can't take this guy lightly. So everything was lock and load after that. Then they seen the famed Boston lawyer, Anticodinale, who represent Salerno in the commission case in New York, represent La Castio in the Gardi case. It represented big names at the time he was representing Vinny the Animal Ferrar. And he's seen his lawyer in the restaurant, Do Cho Chachi's restaurant in Boston. He asked him, why was he there?

and he said, I'm waiting for my client. So calmly says, don't meet your client in public. He says, why? He goes, Frank Slemry's trying to kill him. So they put a bug in his ear. So then he got a bug in my ear and a bug in his ear. Before you know it, they instigated and fomented violence. And it just all exploded.

So then they end up charging you with the RICO and the drug case. They charged me a cold. The drug case was interrelated because there's only one conspiracy. So that's why they ran it together. But they charged me right with a separate drug case, the East Coast, West Coast thing, Arizona, Vegas with McConnell and Meeley, but they're born informants. I took a 10-year plea on that because they never revealed that McConnell was an informant

because it's really not a crime. Then I went to trial on the RICO prior before that. I went to trial on the RICO, but they never handled a discovery that not only that they instigated for mental violence but gets even better, now the informant steals the hit cause and the slimy attempt. So not only the FBI put a bug in my ear saying, this guy's trying to kill me, they have an informant getting the hit cars. They got another informant getting the

machine guns. Okay? Who calls them to the location to be assassinated is James Whitey, Boucher, Steve Rebren, Fleming, and Andrew, Sondy, Mercurial, for meaning because they're trying to get him killed. Now they charge me with being the

Trigger Man and three other people. Actually, no. They charged me and one other person. The other two guys never even got charged. So, I went to trial for it. I got an art proven beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury on December 22nd, 99, Darkman 107.9 is not proven on a RICO in a RICO conspiracy. But I got enhanced for that attempted murder because the judge took the power away from the

jury and enhanced me 25 X years. And he said by the preponderance of the evidence, I think you try to kill him to shoot your way to the top. That was his response. And it was really illegal what he did. And I got a 25 year enhancement for that conduct. Wait, how could he that if the jury said not guilty? Back to Nazi America again. This is what they're doing the judicial system. There's no accountability. This judge is a 33-degree Mason, multi-billionaire, and got away with it because the FBI was on board with it, the Department of Justice report was on board with it, and the judge obviously was on board with it. He was a program judge, and that really happened. Now, if you look into the history of the judicial system,

1895 case called U.S. v. Davis-David said they weren't allowed to do it. Clearly and conceitedly, they had no authority to do that. Once a jury has spoken, I don't care who you are. You don't have to power to take that verdict away. But they did it with me and they got away with it. Now, who else was charged in this RICO case? My good friend, Enrico, Rico Ponzo. It was just you and one other person?

Well, he went on the run for 17 years. Now, he would have still been on the run if had his girlfriend not giving him up. His girlfriend gave him up. They were fighting over custody of two kids. He got charged with it. He got convicted. He's the only one on the plan that got convicted of the head.

was the only one of a plan to beat the hit. And the other two wasn't even charged. So they could do a RICO with just two people? I'll be honest with you. They can charge a nursing home patients with a RICO. All you have to do is protest twice. And it's called predicate racketeering acts. You could be a shoplifter.

You get two predicate acts, two separate occasions, and furtherance of the enterprise. They can make anything in the enterprise. Now, they were alleging that you were involved in organized crime. They were saying that. They were actually saying that. Now, I was reading an article that you denied that. Yeah, yes.

So why would they say that you were against the Irish mob? Well, because what happened was the Italian mob at the time was the leader with Salemi, who teamed up with Whitey Belger, Steve Wright, and Flemmy. And keep in mind, the Irish mob is not all Irish. A lot of them are Italian and Irish, and some are half Italian and half Irish. So most of them, believe it or not, like Howie Winters was. half Italian, half Irish. He was the leader of the Winter Hill game.

Was Sean Wick rolling with you guys back then? Who was it? Who was the name? Sean Wick. Who the fuck is John Wick? Who the fuck is Sean Hicks? Oh, Hick? I never heard of him. You never heard of him? Have you guys heard about that story? I never heard of him in my life.

Yeah, I never heard of them, actually. I'll be honest with you. But that's why they say we were bound the Irish because Slemy teamed up with the Irish Mark to fight us. Okay. They lost the war and they lost the politics because half them guys flipped. Although there's some good guys on that side, they're well friendly with today.

And everybody's at peace today, by the way. But you personally had no beef with the Irish mob. I was friendly with everybody. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Whoever was looking for a beef with me had a beef, but I had no beef with nobody. So they sentenced you to 25 years? 35.

35. Oh, because it was consecutive. No. 10 was a separate case that got concommonant. So I got 35 years in federal prison. The only reason why I got out early was because of the first step back of 2018 and the second chance act of 2007. What happened was they said if you program in prison, everybody gets this,

unless you're a sex offender or they're for fentanyl. If you program in prison, you get a year off. So I got the year off of programming because I took every class under the sun. So I got the year off. And then you can get up to a year and a half home detention halfway house. So I got off two and a half years early. Now guys are getting out even earlier. They're getting up to three, two to three years,

halfway house and home detention. How old are you when you got that 35 year sentence? 35. When you're read a sentence like that, how do you feel what's going through your mind? I mean, anytime you're dealing with stuff like this, you have to have a strong mind. If not, you're going to either kill yourself

or most people either kill themselves or they flip, and I didn't do either. Did you look at it as a life sentence? No. I looked at it. There was always hope because I knew there was a lot of holes in my case. Although my federal judge rubber stamped all my motions since 1996, even when I'm in the halfway house and home confinement, I'm still filing motions, and he's just ignoring me.

And he's 87 years old, and he's like basically, fuck you. You know what I mean? He's not about the rule of law. He's not about the Constitution. He's about whatever the government says, right, wrong, or in between. He'd been rubber sand by my motion since 1996. I got over 2,500 docket entries. I'm not saying I filed all the motions, but I filed a lot of them.

How did your family react to that sentence? They probably thought, like, I talked to a brother I haven't talked in a long time. He was like, oh, when you got that sentence, I don't think you were ever going to know. So some people consider you dead. Where did they send you to first? Atlanta Penitentiary. Tell us about Atlanta Penitentiary. Wild.

A lot of high. Every penitentiary in the country is wild and very dangerous. Some are more so than others. What was the first violent act you witnessed when you got there? Oh, there's people getting stabbed. That's like regular. That's like some guy got stabbed over a chicken wing. One guy's stabbed got stabbed over. He cut in line. You know, people get stabbed over dirty looks. I mean, it's bad. Now, you at that point have a high profile case when you arrived there? Yes. How are you treated when you got there? Good. I was actually hanging around with other high-profile guys. guys and other crews. And it's the Italians who approach you right away?

Mostly, yeah. And Boston guys. Boston's very strong, very prevalent, and very respected in the system. Now, do they, someone like you that's notable when you get there, do they even bother checking paperwork? No, they know who you are. You know what I mean? They know who you are right off the bat. And are you guys at war with anyone in the penitentiary? Do you guys have rivals? Not really. Not really.

Now what about people from rival, like say, mobs or organized crime? Usually, sometimes the beef brings the prison. You know what I'm trying? And sometimes they just put everything on hold until they get out. But then sometimes people take care of business in prison too. Yeah, I was talking to some ex-Hels Angels members, and they were saying that rival motorcycle clubs,

there's no beef when they get to the actual prison. Sometimes that is the case. But it's individual basis, too. Like, let's say you're in prison and another crew kills your, your brother or something. And you don't feel like going by the rules at the time. You just want to take the guy out. It happens.

Deal with it later. Now, when you get to a place like Atlanta, are you thinking that I'm going to spend the next 10 years here? Or do you know off the bat you're going to get into some trouble and move? I usually don't stay long in the prison because I'm a litigator. And I learned again, like I did with bank robberies and I'm robberies, true trial and ever. And I got pretty good at it.

So I usually don't say long. And usually sometimes you don't want to stay long. You want to say two, three years and break it up, especially if you're doing a big number, it changes the environment, and the time just goes by. What do you mean by a litigator? Let's say, for example, you come to me and say, listen, there's a new law route called Compassionally Relief Motions. Can you put in a motion for me?

I have siblings at the house I want to help feed. My family's destitute. I have medical issues. That's for as an example. I'm a litigator. I would file a motion for you in court after exhaustion. Remedies, which is BP 8, 9, 10, 11, and according to the Prison Litigation Form Act in 1996, you have to exhaust your administrative remedies first before you seek judicial inquiry or review.

So in your Pacific case, so you want me file a motion for me, I would tell you, will tell me all the positive and negative in your life, and you and I would put it together a motion, and I got a lot, a lot of people out on that. Couldn't get myself out, but I got a lot of people out. Then, of course, another case law might come down, like the Davis case, of June 24th, 2019, where conspiracy armed, let's say, anything, or conspiracy itself is not considered a violent predicate crime. It can't be used against you on, say, a career around crime crime.

I would file a motion on that, or Taylor, which is attempted, Hobbs Act robbery, not a violent crime. And I got a couple of people out on that. But you weren't a litigator when you first got there, were you? No, I actually learned trial and error. Again, fighting my own case. That's what interested you, just fighting your own case, helping your own case, help. Actually, it kept me busy for all the years. Between the workouts and the reading and the working out and the litigation,

it kept me busy throughout the years, you know what I mean? Fighting my own case and fighting other people's cases. How did you start to see the federal prison system change now that you're going in the early 2000s versus when you were there in the 80s? Well, in the 80s it was more comfortable. You had more features, good features, more benefits, more programming, more, you know, full was better. it was safer, then it just became more constraint. You know what I'm saying? More restrictions and less novelties.

How long do you stay in Atlanta for? Same where? In Atlanta, how long do you stay there for? In Atlanta, I was there about two years. So they picked, a hand-picked people to open up USP Lee in Virginia, another penitentiary. And any penitentiary, regardless of its new world, it's usually wild. It's like the Wild Wild Wild West. you have different crews fighting different crews.

Now what does it mean to open up a new prison? Why do they select certain people? Well, because they don't want to, they want to open it up with people more like model prisoners, people that don't get in trouble, you know, to relax the staff. And then they're going to bring more prisoners in to have more problems where they can easily adapt to that new prison. You understand what I'm saying? They show they train the gods too at the same time. And they looked at you as a model prisoner? I guess they did.

I guess they did because I was picked. Did they not know your back record? They probably didn't know my back record or whatever. But, you know, I'm trying to get out of there too. I'm not trying to cause problems either, you know. What's it like to open a new prison? It's positive and negatives. The positive is you get good food, you get everything new.

The negative is they're using you basically as a speed bag. So if you're walking out of the unit, you're already getting past search. By the time you get to Chalo, you got past shirts like 17 times. You know what I'm saying? And sometimes when you bump into new cars, they're too technical. You know what I mean? They might charge you with a razor blade as a knife or something when you're just chopping up vegetables as an example.

Now, at USP Lee, how violent does that get? Oh, that got pretty violent. Quick, too. Quick. It really did. And then again, it usually resolves around blacks on blacks, Mexican on Mexican, white-on-white. Usually that's what it is.

It's very seldom able to step over the line. And usually in prison, your problems usually start with either, you know, somebody owes you money, or you owe somebody money, or you have bad paperwork, or you can't mind your business. Those are you use four big prongs you've got to watch out for. What was the number one rule you followed throughout your whole? Those are my four rules. I don't owe nobody.

I don't let them owe me. I have good paperwork. I mind my own business. Those are my four main rules. So if you have a problem, let's say you have a vice. Let's say your vice is drinking. Make sure you pay your bills. If it's drugs, pay your bills.

If you're gambling, pay your bills. Or don't do it. If it's alcohol. If it's cigarettes, pay your bills. You know what I mean? And just mind your business. You see somebody get stabbed or killed in front of you? You didn't see nothing.

Mind your business. Would you ever give someone advice like a new kid on the block? Oh, yeah. I would always give them the right advice. And a lot of people coming in there, they're drunk driving. What I mean by drunk driving, they're on drugs, they're gambling. I had one, Sally. He had all devices.

He was an alcohol. He was a drug user. He was a generic gambler. He was a cigarette smoker. He ran bills like crazy. He had a little flow coming in, but it couldn't keep up with the way he lived, like you thought he was in Beverly Hills. Whatever your thing, it could be anything. Canva helps you make that thing a thing.

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But he owes too many people. He could get killed any day, but they didn't want to kill them because he owed too much money. Who do you think was the worst sellmate you ever had? That one. He was probably the worst as far as that. Not counting the snorers. I can't deal with snorers. They got to go.

If you're snoring, you could be the best guy around, but you got to go. What do you do to a snorer? Well, I tell him straight out. Listen, I got too much time in. Too much time left. You got to go. Nothing against you. You're a good guy, but you got to go.

Find another cellar. Now, what do you do when you have a bad sellmate like who you're describing when they almost, money to someone and they're coming to you. Okay. Now, I had a sellie then when he first came about, he showed me his car collection. It was like two million, which obviously he didn't have a car collection with two million. He was a con artist. But he did have a little flow coming in, but he was such a degenerate gambler and such a drug user and an alcohol. He had every vice it was. But it didn't, it didn't, like it creeped up on you. It wasn't all at once. You know what I mean? Then he had to go and hop the block and he ended up moving out with

somebody else that was compatible with him, which was running the same thing, you know, the bills and stuff. What were some of the scams you witnessed in prison over your years? Oh, I mean, like I said, you, you can see some really crazy stuff. You might have a guy say, oh, invest in this, and then he'll go check in. You know what I mean? You see a lot of that going on. You just can't trust people. And people are actually investing, though? Yeah, they'll think of their investing in something that's really doesn't exist, or if somebody will give somebody drugs and they'll check in with it. I mean, you've got a lot of junkies in prison. And what do they just call their people back home to send them the money,

this person that they've just met? I mean, that's what they do. If they're stupid enough. Now, you're a guy that like to hustle on the street and have different rackets. Right. What are you doing in prison? What I'm doing in prison is I'm actually helping people with legal work, so I was getting paid for that.

That was one thing. That was basically my only hustle. Like if I was in Fort Dix, it would be the cell phone and the tobacco. light stuff, nothing heavy. You know what I mean? Because you can't trust people in prison. You can get arrested, too. How much do they pay you for the legal work?

I could get paid anywhere from 400 of a project up to 1,500. $1,500? Yeah, and in some cases you get results. You can't guarantee everybody results. But that's cheap. You go to a lawyer pay for a motion and see what it cost you. I've seen a guy pay $150,000 for a lawyer,

and he never got anywhere with it. And how do they pay you that $15,000? 100 in prison. Oh, they could either pay you, you know, you can either, you pay, send it to my commissary, you know, send it to my account, you could send it to the street. I mean, there's so many ways. You cash app, there's so many ways. So now after USP Lee, where do you go? Okay, wow, there's a big list. And how much time do you do at USP? Lee. So Lana Lee is a whole protocol. I went. I was in McDowell. I was in Hazelston. I was in Fort Dix. I was in Allenwood Medium. The Penns I was in was originally Leavenwood.

I was in Atlanta. I was in Lee. I was in Kain and Penn. I was in USP Pollock. You ever hear that? Yeah. There's Blood House of the South. I almost killed somebody.

It has a long story. Oh, you've got to tell us that story. Oh, this story is, this you're going to like this story. Okay. So this guy kind of deserved it. First of all, he's in prison for headshots to his mother, his father, his brother, and his sister. kills his whole family. He was 15 years old.

He took off. He originally had a state charge. Okay. You can Google his name. You're going to find out everything I'm telling you. It's true. His name is Michael Noomberger. He was out of North or South Dakota.

So he's in USP Polack, and we just got a white TV. So I'm holding it down for the white guys. I'm watching the Patriots play the Jets, and they're losing. So I'm already in a bad move. So this guy comes up to me, jacked out of his mind, all white lightninged out. White lightning is a liquor in prison.

And he's trying to tell me that I cannot watch the New England Patriots play the Jets on a white TV because he said this is a white TV and we don't watch football. I mean, this guy's making his rules as he goes. So here I am watching the TV that I helped get for the white guys. So all I did was take my earbuds out. And I said, listen, you're trying to tell me what I can watch on TV. He takes his headphones off.

He has this rack of headphones. He throws him down. So I know at that point there's no more negotiation. So I hit him with a beautiful left lucky left hook. And it worked beautiful because it knocked him out in mid-air and he hit the ground, splattered and didn't move. And I looked at his eyes. They were open, but the whites were all waiting back.

So the whole eye was white and it was just blood kept up. It was like a sci-fi movie. So the first thing I think was, well, pick up my radio, let's get out of here. I didn't have a scratch on me. And I left. They come running in. It was done so fast and so quick. they didn't know what this guy got hit with.

They thought he got stabbed in the neck or something. And I get away. So, when I get away, they do a search. They got the whole place locked down. They're running in with the, you know, the, what do you call? The rubber bullet guns and the big tear gas. And they're reviewing the film, trying to review the film. And the informants are telling him I stabbed them.

So they're looking for a knife that don't even exist. If they don't exist, it was just one left hook. So they couldn't believe it because this guy got knocked out, and they had to take him to outside hospital. He suffered a concussion and the tuition in the back of his head. And right there and then and there, once you go to outside hospital, it's usually an outside charge. But that place is a zoo. Everybody's running around with knife.

So that was like a joke. So he doesn't give a statement against me, but somebody in the block does, but they don't use that because they don't want to expose the informant. So they go by the films. So I go to D.H.O. Disp. Hearing Officer, and he's like, hey, I'm fine. you guilty. How do you plea? I say, I plead not guilty, and I'm bringing him as a witness, and I want the films. He said, you ain't getting the films, you ain't getting the witness. He goes, in fact, there's going to be a separation between you guys. I said, no, we met out in the rec yard. Everything's cool. He goes, look, you serve your time in the hole. I'm letting you

out, but I'm going to separate with you guys. I go, no, don't separate us. We're good. So we went to the shoe lieutenant. I said, listen, you guys, please, don't make nothing happen between you. He was, I'm going to let you boat out. Everyone was cool. And I was like, listen, he was like, the TV's yours. I go, listen, I'm not a bully. I'm not a looking to stale the TV, but we are watching football. No, football's on. I said, look, when you go to you in a call, when you come back, I'll give you the remote, you can take the TV the rest of the day, I'll have it the day before, and I'm watching football. He says, all right, so I made a deal with him, and everything worked out good. Yeah, can you tell us how these TV rooms operate?

Okay, everything's usually, like I said, it's usually jurisdictional arts, this is the white TV, this is a black TV, this is a Spanish TV type of thing, and it depends on how many TVs there are, so it's jurisdictional. And sex offenders aren't allowed to walk. No, but now, like, let's look at Fort Dix, for example. Okay, Fort Dix, New Jersey, I was on the west side. There was 1,000 sex offenders. There was 2,500 on the West, 2,500 each of inmates.

It'll fluctuate from 1,500 to 1,500. So that compound could hold about 5,000. It'll fluctuate from 5,000, 4,000, 3,000, 3,500. So usually there's 1,000 sex offenders on the west, thousand on the east. And they call the white ones chomo. They call the black ones bromo. And they call the Spanish ones his spomos. So, but the black ones could blend in. But when you start taking the check on the paperwork, you find out who they are because everybody got phones. All you got to do is Google the name. So they had this one that was in my room in Fort Dix.

This kid was one of the best basketball players I've ever seen. He was 40-something years old. He was Reped, great shape. And he used to complain about the phone, like, because I had a phone, I was making money, renting the phone out. And he used to whining, like, so my friend goes, let's run his friggin name. So he ran his name. He goes, because something peculiar about this guy. He would run down to the child hall at the last minute and run back.

He'll never run down when they called child, but it's like the last minute because he couldn't sit in any table. So let's run his name. So he ran his name. Lo and behold, he was a promo. This guy, like I said, you would never suspect it. He was living outside a Y, and then he was casing out. He was like, they call clickers.

You know what clicker is? They download pornography. They call them clickers. And they had different levels of sex offenders. You got the clickers, the touches, you know what I mean? When you talk to a sex offender, they tell you that. So what did you guys do to him when you guys find out? Oh, no.

Well, there's so many of them. I mean, every room has three or four of them. You can't really do it. I mean, the laws is different than a pen. At a pen, they're putting the knife to them. They're getting checked in. They're getting hurt, if not killed. And I realized there's so many undercover chomos at Fort Dix.

So many. Especially in the black and Spanish communities because they protect each other by skin color. They protect each other. And then you get the trainees. You've got to watch out for them. Them guys, girls, whatever you call them. They're coming out with shanks. They got them in their legs.

They're vicious. They sent two black hitters on three chomos. A white one, a black one, and a Spanish one. They all pulled out knives from under their blankets and chased them out of there, hitting them with locks and booting them. They were beating up the hitters. No one believes me that when I say

that they're literally playing like Dungeons and Dragons on the yard at 4-0. They do that. You're right. They're prevalent with that. You're right. The little gazebos outside of 4-Dix. Yes, they do.

And they have their own community. Now, tell us about phone rentals, how that works. Okay, because Fort Dix is prevalent with phones. If you had that same phone, let's say in the penitentiary, you're renting it out for $200 probably for 15 minutes. But because it's so prevalent, you're renting it out for a book or two an hour, which is cheap. And now they also know that if their cops come in on it, they're responsible for that phone.

So a lot of these people, when the cops come to the rest of the phone, they're running with the phone. It's like the three stooges. They're running down the hall, waiting for this fat cop to catch them. Now a book or two is a book of stamps. Exactly. And that's probably anywhere from $5 to $7 a book. How much do you think you made renting phone time? Oh, I have a lot of money with that.

I mean, I'll tell you, they had a stick-up crew when they were sticking up people for phones. Wait, really? They used to run for me. They had a stick-up crew with masks. They were running and stick-up people for their comments during the phones. Wait, the inmates were sticking up people? There was sticking up people on the west side.

Yes, it was insane. That plate, listen, people look at Fort Dix as a non-violent place. There's no cameras in there. there's so much violence. There's more violence than Fort Dix than there is in Pollock Pen and I was in Bolt. It's like the projects in there with those buildings too. It's like the projects and then during the summertime

because they have no air, you suffer like crazy. Yeah. The wall sweat, the floor sweat, the salons sweat. You got to put sheets on your windows. You got to worry about the mosquitoes. One day I should, let me kamikaze this. And I got bitten alive by all the bugs, right? I said, I can't do this.

So I got the dryer sheets and then you put Vicks all over you. and I had the fans, and then I would take a shower in the morning after I work out with the weights, and then I would take one at night just to go to sleep. And I had two fans on me, they're not doing nothing. And I got all this fix all over me to keep the bugs off. So the stick-up crew, how would this happen? Have you witnesses? They, oh, it's insane.

But they know who to stick up and who not to. But they would rent for me. You know what I mean? Because once I give you that phone, it's coming back, one way or the other. So, but they would stick up everybody. They didn't care. And they're running. What are they using for masks?

Like the hats? They can home make the masks. They run in. They got the mask. They get the knives. And they're sticking people up for their food. All those vicious in there. People getting stabbed, getting cracked, left and right in there.

That's crazy. Yeah. Now, what would happen if you're renting a guy a phone and he loses the phone? Okay. They're responsible for the phone. Like I said, if you're renting the phone and they get running on by the cops, they have to pass that phone off. That phone got to go back to the owner.

Or you're responsible. You've got to pay for the phone. Otherwise, they'll just check in. Right. What I like to do was I act as security for them. So if the phone comes, just give me the phone take off. And I'll hide it. And you were fine doing that?

Yeah, I didn't mind it because I want to secure my phone. The phone goes anywhere from $1,000 to $5,000 in there. Now you were in Fort Dix towards the end of your sentence, like the last few years? 2019, I left 24. Yeah, towards the end a little bit, yeah. Because then I got the first step back. Why do you get kicked out of Fort Dix? I, cell phone and knife.

Yeah. It's like America Express Don't leave home without it You know what I'm saying? So you were one of those guys That carried around the knife And I was a nice one Mine was you had to figure it out

It was a James Bond one What happened was I had a bolt In one pocket I had a sharp nail In the other pocket And I had a handle Then when you screw it together With one screw,

It made a nice bone breaker So if I'm walking with you And you're holding The one's holding the sharp nail The other one's holding it you know, the part that you screw in, the other one's holding the other handle, and just passed it together, and you got a nice full knife. Did you ever have to use it in there? Never. Never. Luckily. Never. I mean, like I said, you better to have or not have. Where do you go from Fortex? Well, disciplinary. They sent me to, they sent me to McCain. But McKean is a care level one. No, yeah, it's a care level one. And then I had a, my heart would speed up. So I went to a care level one, the care level three.

had to send me to Allenwood. Alan was a meeting, it was a care level three. So I went there. Alan Wood, the staff routinely retaliates against you for litigating. And I was a victim of, you know, staff retaliation because I was getting a lot of people out of prison through motions. How would they retaliate against you? Oh, forget about it.

They were create, like they did. The last one they created on me was saying I checked the white, head white shark caller and there was no evidence. And he told them he don't even know me. Oh, yeah. tell us the story because we were off camera when you told me. Yeah, it was so insane. What happened was, okay. So I have this tech service where I can Google and I can text.

And when they find out, but you shut it down and it reopens under another service. So a guy comes up to me, says, listen, this guy's running around the compound, I was trying to take over the white guy. He was, I know the Boston guys have your own car and, you know, you ride with the whites, but you have your own politics. He says, but we're stuck with this guy. This guy's had white shark. call and we think there's something wrong with him. So all I did was Google his name. And it didn't

even come up bad. The next day he checked in. Found out I was Googling his name. Checked in. So when he checked in, he said his life is in danger, that he's in a format or whatever. All of a sudden they called me the lieutenant officer and say, you are not to check in anybody off this compact. What are you talking about? What would I check in? There's the retaliation. The unit manager teamed up with the DHO officer, teamed up with the captain, teamed up with the SISs, which is like the FBI in there, and teamed up with who else was involved? There was like five.

There was an associate warden. We've got to get this guy off the compound. He's getting too many people out of prison. So they created a charge on me. Can you explain how the whole charge system works in prison from the different types of tickets to go into the hearing and how that all works? How it works is you get charged when it called an incident report, I have.

They have within 24 hours of survey with the incident report or it has to get thrown out. They have within five days to UDCU. UDC stands for unit disciplinary committee. So if they don't go by them two rules for this region to throw it out jurisdictionally, you know, because they didn't meet their criteria. Okay. So from there, you go to DHO.

DHO stands for disciplinary hearing officer. So once you go from the incident report, you get heard, you bring your witnesses in, you put down who you're going to bring for witnesses, and they're supposed to handle over discovery. then it goes to the DHO, at this point of hearing an officer, and then they hear the case, and you bring your witness, and then you cross-examine witnesses and stuff. Do you think it's a fair system, or is it corrupt?

It's definitely corrupt, because most of the time they don't handle the discovery that exculpatory evidence, which is exculpatory and impeachment evidence means it favors you. They don't bring it in. Like in my case, they didn't bring in the witness that supposedly got checked in that says he don't even know me and never he talked to me.

So a lot of it's a sure. sham in that case. In this case, with me, they had the DHO officer in their pocket. They had the two SIS lieutenants in their pocket. They had the unit manager in their pocket. They had the captain in their pocket. They had the A.W. in their pocket. We got to get this guy off the compound. He's helping people with legal work, whatever way we can, and they'll do it. Then they put an incumbence on my count, and they incumbent my count where I had $2,000 in my count, I couldn't buy a bar soap or a stamp. For three and a half months, locked down 24 hours of days. seven days a week. Then they retaliated again by taking my jail credits, my good time earned

credits, and then they sent me to a higher, a higher level penitentiary, which was a USB Coleman 1, from a medium to a common 1. Oh, so they sent you back to a penitentiary? Oh, yeah, 100%. That was a repunishment. This is on like 2020 now. Right. And they hope, most of the time, they hope you kill somebody or get killed, because that's the reason why they send you there. They don't send you to because they like you. Now, a guy like you that at that point has, like what, 20 years in? Yeah. How is Coleman for you at a penitentiary?

Well, actually, I mean, a lot of people really like me there, all the different races in college, Korean, and religions, they all like me there because, A, I was a litigator, B, because I had 28 years in prison, not too many people have them credentials. Even guys who were doing life probably started there with two, three years, five years, maybe 10. You might have a couple guys with 20 in.

You know, I had 28 already served day for day. What does serving that much time feel like? I try not to think about it, Because why think about it? I try to think positive every day. You know, laws of the universe, you think positive, positive come back. You think negative, negative, come back. When you're in there, though, does it feel that long?

It don't, because what you do is it's your life. You've got to cut all the negativity on the street. You've got to stay away from toxic people on the street, just as well as you have to stay away from toxic people in prison. What do you think was your favorite memory from prison? I would probably have to say besides winning a motion getting people out of prison

helping them out with their families was a very positive thought positive incident event I would say holidays when they feed us good I like them days and the Christmas bag yes yes

sometimes I got jip from them they put me in a hole they don't save it for you I think the best holiday meal I had was a cornish hen Oh those are good You got a full hen those were good

I like that I like Thanksgiving usually Thanksgiving you know if you have a decent warden they give you a good Thanksgiving not at the detention centers when you're in transit those meals are skimpy

what is it when you're in like Brooklyn or something forget that's just like a tray oh you eat like a dog you can lose a lot of weight especially you don't the bad thing is the lockdowns they lock down

because the lack of staff they're locked down for staff assault they're locked down for an emma assault they're locked down for any reason and that's the bad part because I look to get to the shower every day. I look to get to my email every day and a phone call.

Now, when you're at the end of your sentence in a penitentiary, are you still doing like the boots to the shower, the chair, the... Oh, you have to wear, you should wear your shoes to and from the shower. And usually in a penitentiary, you have an arm guard outside your door to make sure nobody runs in while you're in the shower. I wasn't that...

I wasn't that, like, fanatical. I was ready. But, you know, you're in... environment. You know what I'm saying? You're good to people. They're good to you. You don't owe nobody. Nobody owes you. If you go by them rules, usually don't have to have all them precautions. But a lot of people still have them security measures, you know, being applied. But they're not going to just randomly come up on you, right? They're not. They're not. And like I said, there's usually a reason. You know what I'm saying? And if you don't have that reason,

it's not going to happen. What do you think was the saddest moment during your prison sentence? My mother died. My mother died. And and my brother died, was those two. And then my aunt died, and then my niece died. So those were four very sad moments. Do you feel like you never got closure with the- And not being with my son and my grandson and my other son, you know what I mean?

You just couldn't be around them, you know? See, when judges over-sentence people, that's what they do. They ruin families. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? I'm like my sentence required no more than 10 years in prison. I got 25 years extra because of conduct I've been. be the trial because of vindictive or vizelious judicial judges,

uh, abuse in their weaponizing their position of power. And for prosecutors weaponizing their position of power as well, as well as agents, they just, there's no accountability whatsoever. From a life perspective, though, do you feel like that that large sentence kind of may be made up in a karma type of way for things you didn't get caught for? I mean, I don't look at it that way. I look at it this way. I look at it. That karma, Bad comma, right. There's common, there's good and there's bad comma.

I think karma came back on the prosecutor because he almost got indicted for a crime that he committed while he was a prosecutor. But because of the Department of Justice when they investigate themselves, it's like having the fox got the chicken coop. Jeffrey Awa-Han, who committed corruption on my case, committed a pressure on the Ferrari case, Tampa with witnesses, lied in front of a federal judge, should have been in prison. But because the system is corrupt, they protected them. So that's common that came back on him. Karma came back on some of the witnesses. He might have died of overdoses or whatever.

But, you know, some things happen for a reason. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So I like to think, you know, the time I spent the 28 straight years I spent in prison, I learned a lot. I learned how to, you know, do legal work. I wrote my book, which I have here, the Patriarch of Purge. I wrote out while I was in prison for 28 years.

We're making it to a TV miniseries with Rex de Palmer, who is going to be the next Quentin Tarantino, Montesquise. Also with his brother, Jake Paddy, who was a phenomenal actor, as well as a producer in our film. And we have another film coming up called Press. So some positive things can happen while you're in prison. just negative, you know, besides your family dying off and being in time, you know,

getting extra time in prison, you've got to look at the positive aspect. Tell us about the laws getting changed and you getting released because of that. Okay. What did help me get released early was called the First Step Act that Trump brought in on his first term he signed into law along with Congress. It was a bipartisan bill with the Republican Democrats on board. And what it did was to promote inmates to have, to program to better their lives by taking classes to getting out and rather than reoffending, you have a low sense of recidivism because of you're learning a trade or your programming and you're taking all these classes. So by you taking these classes, you get a year off.

So I got the year off of taking classes by programming. Then I got a year and a half off for the first step back and the Second Chance Act of 2007, first setback of 2018. It's funny how this worked out. While they were retaliated against me in Allenwood Medium, and they sent me to USP Coleman 1, they sent me there for punishment. The case manager looked at me, she goes, she goes, I was seven years old when you went to prison.

She goes, that was 28 years ago. She goes, I'm 35 going on 36. She goes, I'm putting you in for the first step back. I go, what's that? She goes, oh, I'm putting you in for the halfway house. I laughed. I thought she was just pulling my chain. And she did.

She put me in. I got a year and a half, halfway house home detention, and I got the year off, which had nothing to do with her for programming, and I got out early. Now they have laws in with Trump behind it and with the bipartisan bills, and like again, first step back, second chance act, where they're letting people out two and three years.

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Conditions apply. So I got the year and a half benefit along with the year off, and that's what got me out. What's the first meal you have when you get out after that long? That was funny. The first meal. I think it was an eggplant parmesan.

It was amazing. I was incredible. I mean, I'm sure. you had street food in there because of the way contraband works. Right. That was the first thing you wanted. That was, I think, the first thing I actually ate. And then I think it was maybe a lamb. I love lamb.

Did you feel institutionalized by the end of this? I would say to a certain extent, but not to the extent that I've bumped into other people that have served the time that I've had in. Like, for example, I bumped into a D.C. guy. He had actually a couple years more than I had in. And what happened was this is how the encounter worked out. I was in the typing room and

Hazleton medium. And I was in there, and he knocked on the door. He goes, hey, can I work out? And I go, first of all, I don't own the room. You can come in anytime you want to work out. He goes, oh, I'm just drawing a little respect. I go, yeah, you can come in and work out while I was typing. So I go, how much time you got in?

So he had like a couple years more than me. And he goes, yeah, but, you know, when I get close to being released, which I am about now, he goes, I always do something stupid. I go, why would you do that? He goes, are you kidding me? This is what the government does to people, by the way. He goes, I get free food, free clothes. He goes, I ain't going out there.

He goes, I got to work. He says, usually when he gets released, he cracks somebody with a lock and chooses a sex offender. He'll pick out a sex offender, crack him with a lock, and get more time. I said, really, that's what you call institutionalized. But the government and judicial system does it to people. When you over-sentence, when we're the only country in the entire world, there has the most people in prison there's something wrong with the system

when somebody's supposed to get 10 years in prison you give him 35 years in prison something wrong with the system when somebody goes to get sentenced and you answer him for crime did he beat a trial something's wrong with the system and it has to be corrected what do you think was the hardest adjustment

after coming out after that long of a time well you know it's like you got to get your license you got to get your permit you got to get your license you're off balance like the deck is stacked against you. You can't move around without a permit, without a license, without a car. You need housing.

You need things. And I'll tell you the truth. I applied for, what's that called, the medical, what's that called, mass health? You know what they told me? I make too much money. I just did 28 years in prison. I come out with nothing but my prison sneakers, right? And they said I make too much money.

I worked as a plumbing company, and I was making $600 a week. They said that was too much money. They denied it. But if you were a migrant and you just came, you snuck into the country after murdering three people in your country coming over and committing, you know, murder and rapes on the streets of the United States of America, and you ask for mass health, you got it. You asked for a debaicah with 9,000 on it, you got it.

Thanks to the biodynamics. What do you think you missed or you missed the most while you were, gone. Like when you look, when you reflect back on the time now, what's something that you wish you could have back? Growing up my kids, my two sons. And now my grandkids. You know, you missed that. Being with your mother, when my mother died before I got released. What they do is they destroy families when they over sentence. They really do. They put people in prison for stealing, but they'll steal lives without any transparent, corresponding accountability. What are some of the biggest life lessons you've learned? Um, how corrupt the system is.

it really is. It really is corrupt. When you can get a federal judge, who will sit behind that, and he only has, by the way, two, three years of law school behind his, under his belt, I think two,

two years of law school. And he just has control over your life with no accountability. He don't have to go by the Constitution. Even though he swore, sworn to go by the Constitution, he'll the extra sentence. They think it's credentials,

an extra feather in their cap by giving somebody an extra 25 years in prison. for conduct they beat a trial. Like, that's criminal. You know what I'm saying? You stole somebody's life, you know? There's no accountability. No, you're on house or us now?

I'm on pre-release home confinement. And I notice I have a new feature here. That's what they have today. That's crazy that they have. That's what they have. It's like a watch. It's a watch, right. And it's very sophisticated.

Very sophisticated, yeah. And so what can you do? You can go to work and... Well, actuality, under the first step back, I earned this call FTC, Federal Time Credit, it, I earned 490 days to knock this off. Because while you get the 365 days under the First Step Back and the Second Chance Act, you're also supposed to earn time off your home confinement slash supervised release.

So when I went to go get my 490 days, which would take this off and bring me to supervised release, they're saying, well, you're right, but we can't grant it. Washington has to grant it. So I have to call Washington, D.C. This is what they're saying to me. the way I said it. And so I'm calling Washington, D.C., guess what I'm getting on the phone? An AI, an artificial intelligence automated machine telling me basically, you know, not answering my question. So I'm supposed to get credit for this.

So the system is upside down again. So not only I was held 25 years over in prison illegally, but now I earned 490 days to get this off and it's slow step in me. So when is this supposed to come off now? It should have been off 100 days ago. So once they grant me my 490 days FTC of federal time credit for a setback time credit, then I should be in supervised release, which is less stringent. And how many years of that will you have? Three.

But with the time credit, I'll knock off a year or over a year on that, and I'll probably be down to about a year. Do you feel free now? I feel really good. I feel free. But you'll feel really free. But there's still a leash on me. Yeah. Of course.

For me, when I got off Supervisor, at least that's when you really feel. Then you feel even more. Yeah, more for you. Where do you see the next five years going? What's something that you want to accomplish that you have? Like I said, the book, promoting the book and maybe do a part two on the book. We have the film Press coming out. Like I said, Rex de Palmer, who was the director and the writer, screenplay writer of the film, the creator of it,

and his brother who was the producer, Jake. And like I said, with Rex credentials and the way. how artistic he is and creative he is, he's going to be the next Quentin Tarantino, the next Mons Casizzi. And so we're working on that. We're at the editing stage on that. And then we're going on to the TV mini-sharys,

which is going to be based on the Patriarch of Purge, and part one and part two. And I'm basically going to be an author and a filmmaker. Do everything legitimate? stay away from all the toxic people. Yeah, do you feel like a lot of those toxic people from your past life are around still? Or are they all gone? Oh, they're around.

I mean, some are dead. Some are witness protection. Some are around. But I stay away from everybody. Is it hard to do that? Not really. You know, you bump into somebody here and then. You say, like, I can go bye, but say away from everybody.

At what point in your sentence do you think you felt like I'm done ever committing a crime again? I probably had to finish to really, really learn everything, probably after the first 10 years, I started to realize what the real deal is. It's interesting because it puts in perspective how is a 25-year sentence actually necessary. Like could someone learn content? Well, I did. Actually, I did 35. But in general, like just some of the-

Yeah. Like I feel like a 10-year sentence is- I think everything's overkill. I don't think anybody deserves that amount of time. I think, like when the people arresting people, for example, they're arresting people for drugs. They're responsible for bringing the drugs in this country as the United States government. I mean, I read case law where they were paying informants to import drugs from Mexico and Columbia into this country where they pay the informants to bring it in and arresting everybody every end.

I'll give a quick example. I handled a case myself on a 2255 motion where homeland security moved 2,000 pounds of marijuana, controlled delivery from Mexico with a cartel informant, they gave $15,000 to, brought it over the border to Douglas, Arizona, and flew it all the way to Boston

and set up my friend for 2,000 pounds, which he only bought 700 pounds. Is there something wrong with that story? It's crazy. I mean, think about it. We're willing, our government is willing to spend money when you got terrorists blowing up everything around here, right? on something like that, creating a manufacturer crime,

or arrest a working guy in the neighborhood because he's paying a guy under the table. Who cares? You don't hurt nobody? You know what I'm saying? And they have to get their perspectives in order. Absolutely. Well, Gigi, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Thank you so much. I appreciate you having me on the show. Yeah, it was a great conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to do this. Thank you again.