Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Gangster Disciple — Then I Went To Prison | Pastor Michael Miano

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

Michael Miano grew up with nothing — a mother addicted to drugs a father who wasn't in the picture and a childhood spent bouncing between family homes. He found the family he was looking for in the Gangster Disciples and quickly rose to becoming a recruiter for one of America's most notorious street gangs. In and out of jail from a young age — an attempted firebombing in New York finally put him away for 3 years. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, Pastor Michael Miano tells the complete story of how prison became the turning point that changed everything — how he found his life's purpose behind bars and what it took to build a completely new life on the other side. From gang recruiter to pastor — this is one of the most dramatic redemption stories we've ever told on this show. _____________________________________________ #gangster #truecrimecommunity #prisonlife _____________________________________________ Connect with Pastor Michael Miano: Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pastor.mike.miano/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelmiano Book: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B007XI7Y1A _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 From Gang Life to Pastor — The Complete Story 03:00 Growing Up on Long Island — the Home Life and Aspirations That Shaped Everything 07:00 Family Dynamics and Sibling Relationships That Defined His Early Years 10:00 The Pivotal Childhood Moments That Pushed Him Toward Gang Life 14:00 His First Encounters With Gang Life and What That World Really Looked Like 17:00 Inside Gang Recruitment and the Early Activities Nobody Talks About 23:00 Arrests School Struggles and the Double Life He Was Living 29:00 The Escalating Violence and Legal Troubles That Defined That Chapter 35:00 His Prison Sentence — Facing Reality and What Loyalty Really Meant Inside 39:00 Life Inside Prison — the Survival Tactics and Reflection That Changed Everything 45:00 Searching for Identity — Tattoos Politics and What Prison Life Really Looks Like 53:00 The Turning Point — How He Went From Gang Life to Complete Transformation 01:00:00 Reintegrating — His Plans for Life After Prison and What That Required 01:06:00 Returning Home — Finding Work and the New Beginnings That Followed 01:10:00 Building a New Life — Jobs Faith and the Ministry That Gave Him Purpose 01:17:00 Becoming a Pastor and What Giving Back to His Community Really Looks Like 01:20:00 His Mindset His Reflections and the Advice He Wants the Next Generation to Hear _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My guest today grew up with a drug-addicted mother, no father in the picture, and a childhood spent bouncing between family homes. He found the family he was looking for in the gangster disciples and rose to become a recruiter for one of America's most notorious street gangs. Then, an attempted firebombing in New York put him away for three years. What happened inside that prison sentence changed his life. His name is Pastor Michael Miano, and this is a story of how prison turned him into a pastor. Where'd you grow up? Long Island. What was your upbringing like?

You know, that's such an interesting question, right? As we grow, we learn, we think, we ponder. When I was younger, I probably would have said it was a struggle, right? It was tough. I think I've went through a season of being more optimistic about life and saying, I don't think it was as tough as I may have thought. But then again, listening to some people and sharing my story, even readying myself to be here. sharing people would say, you had a unique experience on the island. It was rough. And so, you know,

so there was a bit of a struggle growing up. What did your parents do for work? My father was unfortunately not there, absent father. And my mother, she, I believe she went to school for engineering. She was an engineer for a while and then fell into life. Life happened. Where was your father? Do you know? somewhere else no no where exactly i think he moved around a bit um i don't know as much about his life as i wish maybe i should you know to understand him a bit better and you know why his younger years looked the way they did that's now that i'm a father i think it's giving me plenty of time to kind of sit there and say give people credit they were they were 25 they were 32 you know and um so i

look back i don't know as much about his his life as I wish I did. Did you have any type of father figure? Throughout life, I think I've had many, for some strange reason I did, I gravitated toward like a male influence, right? And in my younger years, there was probably like mom's boyfriends that I felt like served some sort of role. I can remember them as I think about my younger years. Then eventually I gravitated toward gang life, which definitely fostered that fatherly influence. my life more of the masculine energy. And then later on in my growing experience of becoming a

Christian, I ended up having what you would call a spiritual father. So I have had definite male influences. Do you think lack of a father figure as a kid is what drove you to gangs? It's definitely in there as one of the contributing factors. Now describe for us young Mike before, you know, he ever gets into trouble before he ever joins a gang, just, you know, happy times, Mike. Fun. You know, I think I can, like, as I think about that for some reason, one of those little electronic four-wheeler, you know, trucks or whatever comes to mind in the backyard. You know, I remember one time my mom used to like making salads and all kinds of different things. I remember one time running in the house, some kids in the neighborhood were yelling something

from the street or something. Love going into the woods, building, you know, I've heard some of your stories, so we definitely share the affinity for going out into the woods and building forts and clubhouses and everything like that. Outdoorsy, which is odd to say and think about because so much of my life after like my younger years became being inside, being in the malls, you know, being in prison, being, you know, in class, being in these different environments. But definitely liked being outdoors and running around hyperactive and, yeah, just curious, I guess you could say.

What did you want to be when you grew up? I think in my younger years, it was a teacher. I went to church, which ironically, I went to a church with a woman that invited us. And I said, being a pastor looks cool. That was a fleeting thought, very fleeting, like probably a day. And just that day, sitting there and saying, well, that's cool. He's up there, you know, and people admire him and respect him. And then I think a police officer was definitely one of the who doesn't want to go after the bad guys.

And yeah, so those were some of the roles, I think, I looked up. And I said, maybe that's what I want to be when I'd become. What was the relationship like with your mom as a kid? You know, there's like brief moments with my mom. So I remember I was definitely a mama's boy as, you know, when I was a kid, I can remember always running to mom and, you know, needing mom for something. I don't, I don't necessarily recall a whole lot of influence where like she was teaching me things or other than waking us up for school, which is very important.

You know, I wake my son up for school every day. so I know how important that is. But beyond that, I don't know. Again, looking back, I understand she had a lot going on in her own personal life. So she wasn't really that influence, that too personable with me. I don't recall too many things. I remember just moments, like quick things, like stopping. And she would always like to get a ham at the deli or something, you know, silly stuff like that.

But not too much of a relationship. Did you blame her at all in your trial that for her? say your upbringing or the way things were no no actually when she was in rehab she I would write her letters and one of my biggest things I remember and I was young was probably maybe 15 16 years old I remember writing her and telling her that you know I don't blame her for anything that you know really just trying to encourage her and knowing oddly enough at 16 years old knowing that if you encourage someone and you invest some time in them and try to give them a better way of seeing it maybe they're

that'll provoke change. And I probably wouldn't have told you it that way then. But I definitely, when I look back, I believed in my mom. You know, and she, to this day, I still tell people she's my hero. Did you have siblings or just you? Yeah, I have siblings. We have siblings. We do.

I have a younger brother and I have a younger sister. And then I have three brothers on my father's side. Were you guys close growing up? My brother and I, for sure. Now, what was the age difference? He's, what, four or five? My wife says he's four. He's four years younger than me.

Okay. And my sister's 10 years younger than me. Did he follow the same path as you? You know, yes and no. He definitely leaned in on the mischievous and, you know, being devious and causing trouble. He has a different experience, you know, and I don't want to tell his story for him. But I know he often returns back to his getting arrested one time and just going through the motions of the precinct was enough to say this isn't it this is definitely not a

life i want to contribute to i want to be involved with so that served as a kind of a catalyst to keep him away from you know gangs or violence and anything like that um he's a bit more aggressive than i am um and uh you know but again he was able to channel that energy into other things uh he likes video games and that's a great a method for uh getting that aggression out um my sister being 10 years younger than me, you know, relationship was harsh, but we definitely, we have a closeness about us and, um, yeah. If someone asked you what one moment was that changed the trajectory of your life as a child, what would that moment be? Um, a moment. Uh, there's so many. Uh, a moment that changed my life would be when I left my aunt's house to go and live with my mom,

go back to living with my mom. So to give a little bit of clarity in that, I bounced around a bit. My mom, you know, it went from, at least from my younger year experience, like as a kid, watching her went from different boyfriends

to now we're moving into different locations constantly, to now we're living in an environment that's like definitely not healthy. And, you know, you could see drunks. You could see, you know, just disheveled folks, just all kinds, a lot of folks coming in. and out. It became unhealthy and I think my father's side, my aunt particularly leaned in and said,

you know, we want to help Mike out. And I'm sure she wanted to help all my siblings, me and my brother and my sister. Yet I'm sure they didn't have the capability to do so. So the idea was, let's lean in, let's help him out and get him out of that environment. I was also the oldest one, so probably the most affected by the situation. Again, I didn't know what was going on. And I just knew we moved to a new environment, and this place is different. You know, the kids were a little, there were sometimes other kids that would be there for short periods of time. And, you know, that's where I got introduced to like a Playboy magazine and what was it, the garbage pail kids. I don't know if you ever heard of them.

It was like these weird cards. It was like a, I guess, like a mad comic type of idea of the cabbage patch kids, but switching again. And that was the first environment that I heard of these things, you know. And before, I guess, the biggest trouble we got into was, Mark's mom said don't dig holes in the backyard. And now of a sudden I'm reading Playboy and things like that. And that environment was where things began to change. And well, that was one, I guess you asked for the one moment,

but point being where the catalyst for my life, things changed in the situation, but that I don't know that that was the biggest catalyst of change in my personal experience. Then when my aunt leaned in, I went to live with her. and I lived with her for a couple of years, went back to my mom's, and in that period of time, basically from second grade to about fifth grade, or maybe, I'm sorry, second grade to about sixth grade, seventh grade, my mom was going in and out of drug addiction, which obviously as a kid I didn't know much about, was being introduced to it. And when I was in seventh grade,

I told my aunt, I wanted to live with my mom again, and I went back and lived with my mom. And unfortunately at that point, I had already bumped into some people that were a little bit different of an influence, gang members. And moving back with my mom gave me far more freedom than a 13-year-old child should have. Is that because she was very laid back or just because she had her own issues? She was unfortunately at that point in full-blown addiction. So, you know, sleeping all day up at night with her group of friends that are there and us kids kind of just doing whatever we want, whenever we want, disappearing for however long we want. And when she was awake, she was on, you know, on top of things and locking doors and making sure, you know, yelling at us, telling us to, you know, be good kids. But unfortunately, when she was going to sleep, we were doing whatever we wanted.

And that would include me going, hanging out with people that, you know, were outside the confines of the environment she thought she had understood and, you know, wasn't going and hanging out across the street anymore. And, yeah, that was definitely a catalyst of change. Why do you think your other family members allowed you to go back with her? I mean, you're 13 years old. Technically, they probably could have said no. I think it's the unfortunate legal fight in the state of New York with, like, child protection services and everything that goes into that and whatever the money was being received from the government, my mom was receiving money and how that was being worked out in my aunt's life and other family members,

I think, just didn't fully understand or, you know, know, know how to respond to the situation. And let's face it, there were also family members that wanted to pretend everything was okay. Okay, I have to tell you all about this sponsor because it's genuinely perfect for me specifically. If you've watched a show for any amount of time, you know everybody calls me Mcloven. I literally built my entire brand off being the Mclovin looking guy with the glasses who went to prison. My glasses are not just accessories. They are a part of my identity.

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That's Z-E-N-N-I-com slash podcast, promo code podcast 15. Guys, seriously, it takes less than five minutes to get yourself another pair of stylish glasses. It wasn't. Describe your first interaction with gangs. I was at a school. I went to a school fight, and there was a kid there that came up to me after the principal. They walked me out. I was crying the whole time in the principal's office.

I heard an interview recently on this program where they said, all the tough guys crying. And I guess that's true. At least those that think they're tough. And, you know, I remember I cried in the principal's office, and then they walked me out. And there was a kid there that said to me, good fight. And he wasn't from our school. And then the next day, his girlfriend came to me and gave me a phone number. And I called him.

And I think at that time we were using it. We weren't using cell phone. So it was a pager. I paged him. And then somebody called me back and I was being introduced to gang members at that point, which I didn't know. Obviously, you know, I remember my first real interaction talking about gang life. I was like, like the blood's in the Crips.

And, you know, from Long Island. It's, you know, I wasn't very from a 13-year-old kid in 1997. In Long Island, the gang influence in my world was minimal. You know, so I had seen maybe. maybe a movie or two, obviously, I knew something. And that was my first interaction with the gang life. And what gangs specifically for you? Gangster Disciples.

Okay. And that's what kind of gang is it? White, blacks, a mix. It's a Black Street gang. It's from Chicago. In the 1990s, it was finding its way into Long Island slowly. And, you know, the interesting thing is about the gangster disciples is that Larry Hoover had changed the concept of the gangster disciples far beyond far before 1997 and yet here were a group of people using a negative

attitude of using a man's name that wasn't authorizing it and recruiting people under that idea of a negative you know us versus them a street gang mentality so just to clarify because again the gangster disciples had actually changed their name in 1990 to growth and development which really was trying to bring forth a positive message for youth that were in you know earth urban poverty-stricken areas to help give them mentorship, et cetera. Obviously, I'm sure you would, if you've heard plenty of times, where gang life can have a positive and a negative effect on people. And I know Larry Hoover himself was trying to move in that direction all the while you had

people moving from different states, particularly moving to Long Island and kind of furthering this, this gang life mentality. So yeah, it's a Black Street gang from Chicago. Now, why would they be interested in someone that's white? probably multiple reasons. You know, I think getting involved in those neighborhoods, I guess I never really asked that question. That's a good question. I can have my perspective. I don't know why people would do that, but I guess if you're looking at it from the attitude of, you know, the white kids have money. So we'll bring them in and use their money. Yeah, right?

You know, they can contribute to our causes, gives you access to the schools, which again, I think was a big part of recruiting me was giving them access to, it's funny, I never thought that through. That's wild. Giving them access to other kids in our school that would be recruited and ultimately join as well. Yeah, I've met a couple white GDs that I've had on the show. Just like, you know, you meet black crips or white bloods. You come across that. How did the fellow gang members treat you if you're of a different race or does it not play a part?

But, you know, I often tell folks, I really didn't pay too much mind to that when I was younger. Again, I think my aunt had a good influence of kind of telling me like, listen, you know, race isn't a thing. Like that, you know, and she did tell me that, you know, black folks have had it hard. That was kind of like the, and so for me, I was like, all right, well, black folks have had it hard in America. And, you know, I need to give them grace. And I never really seen it as like they're different than me or anything like that. Maybe in high school when it got very cliquey and weird. There was like some moments there.

But as far as how I was treated, I don't think I was treated any differently. I think that I got more accolades for, let's face it, you know, the white guy goes and does something that, you know, same age, same size black kid does. All of a sudden I'm getting accolades and credit. I would say that my reputation definitely furthered because of my, you know, being a white kid in the gang in the neighborhoods that I was in further than other people that maybe a black kid or a Spanish kid that would have had. the same opportunity. So, you know, but as far as how I was treated personally, I don't think I was treated much different. What do you think sold you on it? I know you said the lack of father figure, but was there anything specific? Was it a violent aspect or something different? I was bored. I think when I look back and, you know, because I've obviously I've gone through quite a bit of like

cognitive development, right, of thinking through like, why did I make the decisions I did in life and so forth. For me, I was just living with my aunt. My aunt was sort of strict. She was like, you know, she wanted to really keep me away from what she saw ahead. Like, consider the fact now, you know, obviously, I wouldn't have told you this as a kid. You know, I think I've thought this through more recently because I have children of my own. And like, I look at like, my gosh, like give these folks a break. You know, my aunt knew what I was going back to. She knew the environment. yet had no control over me going back and forth. So her best bet was you can't wear baggy clothes.

You see that guy hanging out at the deli, just hanging out, standing there. Don't ever do that. You know, try to reinforce these things in me that were being very popularized in the 1990s, right? Being that's cool, that's the, you know, I wasn't allowed to wear baggy clothes, so I had to steal my aunt's clothes,

my aunt's baggy pants and wear them the school. And so I could have baggy clothes, which was it turned into an incident where when they had to where when they had guess somebody was like wrestling around in school and knocked me over and I think like my pants went up and they saw like the tag and it was like but I wanted to be cool I wanted to you know I wanted I wanted to wear the baggy clothes so I think coupling that desire to also obviously be mischievous and want to get into trouble because wanted to rebel against like you can't wear baggy jeans and and and now I have this opportunity in front of me let's go for it and then of course just taking the opportunity to move back to my mom moms where I had far more freedom. It kind of just all worked in tandem. Now, how do you officially become a gangster disciple? Is there like an initiation or how does that work? Unfortunately, being that it wasn't authorized from any real authority, you know, for me, my experience, and I've seen it being done in so many different ways, I had to go through like six rights of passage, if you will,

you know, that I would be accepted as a member. And it would include, you know, being a part of beating someone else up um being a ride-along and whatever you know that folks want me to be involved with um fulfilling like a loyalty type of process six you know six steps of uh proving things now i don't know that they were marked down i didn't get like a report card but i passed so um but again i've seen it done in so many different ways um i've seen people in different decks if you will uh borrow from other gangs and other street gangs and then i've seen You know, as I heard somebody say on an interview on this program, you know, the people just being blessed in and just being accepted as, you know, hey, this is the, he has a good word or whatever. So, again, I think it's very open depending on the group.

My group that's what they were really doing was just kind of accepting people on their own, making their own choices and saying this is how we want this person to come in, this person. It was different. What do you think about those things now? The initiations. Yeah. I think initiations are actually important. I think they're a good part of, now, gang initiation is not so important. Obviously, I think I've done a lot in my personal life to show that there's a positive

to gang involvement, meaning, you know, group involvement, if you will. However, having a mindset that's set on wickedness is, you know, and on destroying lives of other people and not setting them on a path of success is a horrible thing. And let's face it, that's what, unfortunately, you know, you put drugs. drugs in people's hand, you give them access to things they didn't have access to before. That becomes problematic. So as far as my look at initiations, though, themselves, I think initiations are good. Now, is there a money aspect to this, too?

Do you make money? Some people do. I've been wildly naive to making money in my life. You know, my younger years, I kind of just made it by and I was okay with that. You know, I tell stories all the time where I'll talk about, like, we used to beg for quarters at 7-Eleven and this and that. And I can tell people are looking at me like, why was he doing that? Why didn't he just get a job?

Why didn't he, you know, but I've just been wildly naive to like, we'll just get the money when we can't, you know. It's something I'm growing through in my adulthood as well. Now, once you join, does life change at all? Or do you still live at home or do you still go to school? What does that look like? Yeah, I lived at home still. I stayed, you know, I would be in and out. my mom sometimes would be asleep for days at a time so I would be given access to kind of stay out

come back and then obviously as you know it got past 13 14 15 16 16 years old I'm out doing what I we ended up being taken away from my mom which is an important part of my story I lived with my mom for a couple years and then the house went on fire and CPS got involved and took us and then we ended up living with a foster family so now I'm in the foster environment I have told total free access, I'm the boss. You know, all I got to do is yell a little bit. Which, you know, I may say give a whole lot of props to foster parents. You know, that's a, what a job.

What a responsibility to take in. And what a beautiful thing that people would do that. So, you know, this family took time to, the house went on fire. We were scattered. We were living at my grandmother's house for a little bit. And then CPS got involved. And we were able to. able to stay with this family for a little bit and then CPS took my sister when my mom went to court

and this whole mess and showed up to the house where I was at took me and put me in a group home and this family fought for us so they gained foster care of us and the unfortunate part about that going back to my part and it was I abused it right I basically was like I have free reign here I can do whatever I want and that's what I did just used my time to go and be a ride along and do knucklehead stuff up until when I was about 17, I really started kind of recruiting people and creating a whole mess of my own. Why did the house catch on fire? You know, to this day, I think that's still a mystery.

It was, there's a couple factors that go into this. We had drunks that lived in the basement that smoked cigarettes on the porch. There was apparently some insurance claim somewhere, and that's what I think that's where it lands. I was just a kid, so I didn't really understand. And then it's because I say that because, oddly enough, that night I remember being up late doing a school project, nothing like a house fire happening after you finished a school project. And, you know, to back up and help you maybe fill in the environment a bit, I now I'm living in a house where it's, it's, you know, a crack house to use that term. There's people that are staying there that live there permanently. There's people that are sleeping on cots in the kitchen.

here I am I wake up or I'm up at night I'm doing my school project instead of having that cool board that kids had for the science project that was like this thing you buy a dollar tree apparently that you know opens up I didn't know where you get those I didn't nobody would bring me to a dollar store to get a board for a dollar I don't even know if we had dollar stores then but either way I make my project out of two game boards right you know like painted them and everything else made it all nice and The house goes on fire and obviously I never got my school project. And yeah, they, you know, I forgot why I was telling you all that. But I'm pretty sure it was insurance. The insurance claim that somebody burned down the house. Now, you mentioned you moved into, well, if I may say, so I want to double back if you don't mind. No, of course not.

It would be that I, the reason why I was telling you that story was the case was so confusing that they brought up the fact that I shared that with the investigators. that I was up late doing a project, spraying spray paint out my window, and they said, he might have lit the house on fire. And they factored in. For years, I thought,

could the spray paint have caught on fire? Like, obviously now I've given up on that idea. They were, I guess, legitimately saying maybe I was being mischievous and I burnt the house down, which wasn't the case at all. All I was saying was that it was such a weird night that I was doing my project

and I was just out the back window. And then the next thing I knew, somebody was waking me up telling me and there was flames above my head telling me the house was on fire. So that's what I wanted to just finish and help you understand why I was sharing about the doing the project lead tonight. Now you mentioned you moved into recruiting. What does that mean?

So unfortunately, early on in my gang experience, a lot of the people that got me to join weren't from here. We're from other states. We're kind of part of their own little thing that I was far too young to understand really what was going on. So they started here. They recruited a whole bunch of people in a portion of Suffolk County on the island. And then some of them got arrested, I guess.

Some of them had warrants, went to prison. Some got killed on Long Island early on in the 1990s. And so then we were left with like a very small fraction of GDs on Long Island. And then basically they, I guess I was commissioned. I don't recall anybody ever actually giving me permission, but it just began. I started like a group. That was the idea that instead of bringing people in as GDs, we would, you know, bring them in as like a group, a click and then graduate from that into like the GDs and so forth.

So that's what I had started. And yeah, I don't know that I needed permission. And yeah. Back then, how do you find people from different states? There's no social media. Do you use in beepers? So, well, again, all I know from my vantage point was these people had moved here. Now, obviously, looking back, I'm imagining there was probably family involved somewhere,

like they moved to someone's house or anything. I never, you know, this was just cool to me. Like, this is, that's why I got involved, right? I just needed something to do. I didn't ask a whole lot of questions. And, you know, so I'm imagining that's probably what happened was that there was, like, a family member or something. And then that, whoever that person was that recruited me,

which I only saw maybe three more times, because I'm pretty sure he broke up with the girl that was at our school, et cetera, you know. You know, that's, I'm imagining that's how they did it. But I don't know that they're, like, thinking back, I think the only way that we communicated with people at a state back then was like AOL Messenger. So, I don't know.

Yeah. Yeah. Now, back then, you know, around this era, are, is gang, I guess gang policing, gang cops big at the time or are they picking GDs up off the street? So I don't know, you know, 1997, put yourself in 1997, 2,000 Long Island. I don't know, like, to the year 2000, I don't know that the gang unit stuff was, I think it was very early.

It was like just beginning at that time. So they antagonized us quite a bit, though. We would constantly be, you know, when we went to jail, they would come and talk to us. I don't know so much about picking us up on the street, but anytime you got arrested, you knew like, here comes the gang unit, you know. When was the first time you got arrested? My first time got arrested was, well, I got arrested at 13 for arson. It's funny that we told my house fires.

I got arrested for a shed across the street. We and my brother were playing and I lit the rope on fire after we dunked it in gasoline, expecting the rope to kind of just do like a slow burn it didn't do a slow burn and then the building the shed it was an old dilapidated you know abandoned shed that we were hanging out in so the shed burned down so got arrested for that arson got a what was it a cOD you know they put you on a year of pins or something and then i got arrested 16 and 19 years old i was in and out of the county jet was like a thing you know i would get arrested for disorderly conduct i would get arrested for threatening somebody never anything too

serious just these uh you know in short stints like i would do seven days in jail i'd do 60 days in in jail 30 days 15 days uh but constant you know from like 16 to 19 it was just i was out for three months i'm back in doing 15 days again i'm out i'm back in for seven days i'm you know just back and forth um so yeah quite a bit of arrests and what was going on with school at that time were you done i i think at 16 i tried to do the g ed at the uh suffolk community college i went to like two classes And it was like, I'm not going to be able to sit here and do this. Once they mentioned, it's like, you got to come four weeks or whatever. I was like, no, I'm here now.

And I just need my GED. Give me a test. You know, one thing I learned in my younger years and the gang life encouraged in me was that I love to read. Right. So I learned when I was in first grade, I received the Randy Reader Award. I still have it to this day. And I love to read. When I joined the gang, these were the first people to really draw out of me.

You're smart. you know how to read. You understand things. You know how to explain yourself. Maybe that even goes back to, you know, you have this young white kid that's presenting himself a certain way. Maybe that was a part of the recruitment. But, you know, it was definitely what it served in my life was empowered me.

It made me feel like, all right, so I love to read. I can do these things. So I lost my train of thought. We were talking about schooling. So, yeah, okay. So point being. I was smart. I knew that, right? I can read. I can comprehend. I took the test. If I stayed in the classroom long enough to take the class, I'll pass it. I can do the testing. But the problem was staying long enough to do it. I have so many better things to do. I don't know what they were. But I had so many other things I needed to be doing that I just couldn't sit through the GED. So then I think I went back to public school for one year. Ended up getting kind of a fight with it. It was like I had the worst luck in public school.

Now that I'm like a gang member, and I didn't openly show any like affiliation to anything pretty much until I was about 16 years old. I was recruited at 13. The people that brought me in were very, they were older, so they kind of had this attitude of like, you don't need to be out there doing gang. You're going to attract bad attention to us.

A little white kid running around with a blue bandana out of his pocket, you know. So I wasn't really very open with that. People knew, like I guess people close to me, knew something was different. They see me hang out with people that they knew were outside of our environment. But it wasn't until I was 16 where I really began to, like, show out.

You know, my mom heard me on the phone talking to somebody, and then it was like, I might as well just go all out, you know. And now we're, that's probably where the recruiting part comes into now that I think back is it was just more accessible now. Now I'm open. I'm out there. So my point is with school was just that I went back to public school. Anytime I'm wearing any colors, I'm getting problems everywhere.

You know, like I guess we had a new kid. Once I figured out, like, I got everybody in check. Like, listen, I'm wearing the bandana. You can wear yours. I don't, you know, you want to fight. We can fight. You know, we're going to. But I was always kind of like a, I wouldn't say a peacemaker.

I would say I was just, if you don't want to fight, I don't want to fight. You know, you stay over there. I'll stay over here. And that's just like, you know, because the GDs when I joined, it wasn't so much about these enemies. I had no, like, no other gang really did anything to me to make me hate them. So, you know, that wasn't my, my gang membership. Mine was more about, like, these are my people, you know what I'm saying? Just respect us.

And life could be very simple. I'm in public school and I had to put a couple people in check to kind of be like, listen, this is, I mean, if you want to fight, we could fight. Otherwise, like, let's just, you do that. I'll do this. And that's fine. And we did. We, you know, I had like a movement going. We were, like, calling ourselves, like, infamous gangsters or something.

trying to find a way to like unite. And then there would be somebody that would show up. I remember one particular incident where somebody showed up and he was just not with it. You know, and I was like, here we go. And now we're fighting. And now I'm in the principal's office. And I was on the honor roll. I had just my grandmother went through a lot to get me back into public school.

And, you know, I've just gotten out of our county jail and did 60 days in the minor tier. And you know, it's like, let's bring them the public school. Great idea. Right. So then, and I did good. Honestly, I tried my best. I think I think even the school knew. So he put his best foot forward.

I was on the honor roll. He was doing great. Six, seven months in, now I'm out of the school. And so education was tough. It was earned. And then to make a long story short there, I got arrested at 19 and I got my GED in the county jail. What do you got arrested for at 19? Weapon charges.

Related to what? I didn't possess any weapons up. But you know, Long Island gang, I can. activity is interesting because it's the suburbs right so you know a lot of our stuff is like we're not like living one block away we're living like towns away from the people you have you so you really have to when I look back you have to like amplify the energy of the violence to me or the aggression to even make anything really happen right because it's not like we're living right around the block now there are some neighborhoods where folks are living right around the block

from each other but where we're at with a lot of like you know I guess the word would be white suburbia you know that's not what's going on you know I hate to use phrases like that because I'm like a probably put my foot in my mouth. But, you know, but again, that's where we were at. We were in like a, you know, it was just a middle class, you know, again, my experience might be unique in the midst of that middle class, you know, environment, but it was middle class. So the gang stuff wasn't as, you know, out there as much as people might think or as much as I might even have thought at that time. my group of friends my gang started problems with a whole bunch of other people over god knows what girls money uh somebody offended somebody somebody yelled at somebody who knows

um and it just turned into like all out nonsense people getting jumped at the bus stop people so we did this for like two weeks and then uh my my crowd decided that we were going to go and antagonize them somehow if you want me to be transparent which ironic i'm gonna be transparent here uh i said you know let's go kidnap one of them and like beat them up and like drop them back off guarantee they won't mess with us again watching too many movies obviously i guess my group of friends thank god looked and we're like it's far easier to go there and throw fire bombs like a maltow of cocktails at the house and i said i said do not throw the sad thing is you know i said don't throw it at the house or the property throw it at the people

because again we're gang members this we're supposed to do we don't like people Your house didn't do anything to me. Your car didn't do anything to me. That's what we're going to do. We're going to attack people. And they didn't. They threw it at like the yard and the mailbox and everything else and then came back to my house. And so the police showed up.

Everybody ran but me. Like, why am I going to run? And, you know, again, part of the ego was like, this is who we are. This is what we do. You know, so the cops showed up. And I got arrested first. And I would think I was the only one cuffed everybody, but I think one person, be like 25 kids in the backyard there and and some people not all them are gang members like some of them

are just like cling ons that were there to be like this is cool f that team you know and and uh yeah so then the police showed up and out of 25 of us three of us had to stand up and take the blame uh for the crime they were threatening my aunt with CPS but at this time uh I live at my my other aunt's house not the and I grew up with another aunt and my brother and my sister are living there and my mom's on the run um she's on crime stoppers at this time yeah life got weird i'm telling you there's so many ends and outs obviously as i thought about coming here i was like there's so many ways to take this story in life um but you know so then the police basically um arrested three of us and uh obviously i was like this is great i'm going to jail for something that i never possessed a weapon

So, you know, I never done to do anything. I literally didn't leave my property. They, and I told everybody not to do what they did. So I was like, this is, this is going to be a piece of cake. Hmm. So I thought. And obviously what I learned was that the police were grown men that had a force that they knew what they were doing. And they got my two co-defendants to say that I forced them to do, to throw these mock,

maltow of cocktails at someone's house. And so I got three years for weapon possession. Why didn't you flip on them? I don't think that was, wasn't an option. Yeah. Why do you think they're gunning for you, the cops? I gained quite a reputation, quite a reputation in our, you know, now, again, looking back, I realized, like, yeah, you were taking kids that were in, like, these nice schools and school districts and getting them to join a gang, like, a street gang that, like, you could Google and find bad information about, you know? So I didn't think about that back then, obviously. I was just like, you know, this is what we're doing. This is cool. I think I was even able to, like, talk to adults and make it seem like, all right, they're harmless. You know, they got, because, again, a lot of the ideas that Larry Hoover put forth regarding GDs and in a lot of the organization, there's some positive stuff there that, that, you know, I think when I spend it to adults that way, it was like, it seems harm. It's like it's like a club.

It's like multicultural club, leave him alone. You know, but it wasn't. And, yeah, so I don't know where I was going with that. But now, if they did give you an option to cooperate, would you have? No. They did give me an option. I just, they brought me like to the DA's like office and had me sitting in a hallway. So why are we here? My lawyer's like, Michael, just listen. Why are we here? And then eventually I was just like, I can't. This is not the right way to do things. You can get me in trouble. And again, it wasn't even about trouble. I just, for me, that wasn't an option. It was like, why you guys aren't my friends, you know? And granted, I ended up realizing and learning. And granted, I ended up realizing and learning. And later in life that neither were these folks but i shared this quote a couple times today uh in my in the game culture they they taught us that your loyalty and again i agree with it so much your loyalty is not contingent upon the loyalty of other people so for me it really wasn't like this thing where it was

like oh well they're mean to me or they're they're not loyal to me it was that doesn't matter like i'm still loyal to me i'm still this is my word this is who i am uh so for me it really just Never was an option. How did you feel about getting three years in prison at that age? Scared. Curious, which is weird to say, but yeah, curious, you know. Well, this is what we got to do now. And unfortunately, probably very open to what the experience would form me into.

You know, I think I looked at it at 19. I looked at it like, this is going to be, I'm going to be the man. You know, I'm going to be, when I get out of prison, I'm going to be the man. Like, I went to prison for something. do you know I stuck up for everybody blah blah blah it didn't end that way what was the reality of it um what was the reality of prison or going into it versus what you expected um okay so uh the reality of it was my most of the people i thought were my friends obviously proved not to be my friends my mom proved to be my hero my mom was close the whole time my mom got clean while i was

in prison um the world changed around me a lot um The girl I was dating had a baby with the guy that I testified against me. You know, I think a lot of the people that were in like the gang culture kind of faded away. I was definitely like a force, right, of keeping people together and uniting people. I realize that looking back now and even after I came out of prison, definitely not what I was expecting. Prison wasn't, you know, I remember when I was like younger, I thought like, yeah, I'll go to jail and I'll be like the big scary guy. well that's just not what how god has designed me right it's not my personality it's not my look it's not uh so i think when i was in prison at 19 i didn't really think or going to prison at 19 i didn't think

that that was going to be a reality so i didn't have that problem anymore um but i thought it would have been i i thought it was going to be harder than it was if i might be transparent in that um it was hard but i remember leaving prison and saying you know they serve you three meals a day, they do your laundry. You know, the safety is a factor. I think that's obviously, but I mean, when you take a bunch of people and some people that are, you know, set on doing the right things, some people that are set on doing the wrong things and people that are in the middle and you put them all into like a big room and you're like,

I hope you guys all get along and do great. I mean, what are you expecting from the environment? So that just shows, you know, there needs to be work in that environment as far as like making the safety and making the environment. if we're going to call it corrections, well, then help people correct themselves. And I don't think lumping, I don't know what the solution is, by the way. So if you ask me, I'm going to answer. I have no idea, but I think we have to reinvent the wheel here and figure it out.

And then when I came home from prison, I changed my life in prison. So, you know, I would say God saved me. I became a Christian, my second year in prison. And so when I came home, you know. The whole world was different, right? Everything I expected from the world, the way I looked at the world, the world in reality. Everything was so different. When you first went in, were you planning to stick with the gang?

Yeah. And what's it like to be a white GD in New York prison system? You know, I only have one experience where I could say like the white factor really factored in. And that would have been I was in a camp. Because I, you know, here I am with a three-year sentence. tell people, I do some work in Albany. I've been going and advocating for prison reform in Albany. And what I often tell a lot of the legislators is when I got sentenced, I got a three-year sentence, and I was supposed to do shock. I didn't get shock. I got sent to a camp. Somehow I graduated

from a camp and I got released from Auburn Correctional Facility at Max A. Prison. That should tell you about my experience. It was rough. It was a rough experience. But the only experience is the only experience I have regarding being a white GD, interestingly enough, was early on in my time I was in the camp. And I remember somebody coming to me and telling me, listen, there's a peace treaty between anybody that's under the six and anybody that's under the five, except for white people. What does I tell you about the experience? That was a pretty weird. I was like, what?

I was like, so I don't get to be a part of the peace treaty? That's crazy. And, you know, obviously I survived and I made it through. But it was like, so I'm just getting sold out. you know and i thought that was so again i just i've never really looked at the world through that lens of like a you know black white i just i still don't so um even though i'm learning um yeah you know so but prison was rough i'll say that it was you know as far as being a gd that's a whole other problem um you know gds aren't exactly the uh number one gang in the new york prison system uh probably

the lowest on the totem pole um and uh the what i guess i the one thing would be I stood out a lot, you know, everywhere I went because it was like, you know, if word gets around, the white kid, eventually I put a teardrop on my face for that very reason, uh, was to kind of provoke, ask about me. Please ask about somebody ask about me. That way. One of the worst things I hated, by the way, about my gang experience in prison was I would go to jail. I'd meet you. Hey, what's going on on Mike, you know, I guess I wasn't up there and throwing up gang signs like the minute I walked on the tier. You know, I'm talking to you, I'm meeting you you're you know you're you know you let me know about the the environment and then maybe that night

or however it might be when i go to the shower people would see tattoos and now all of a sudden it's out he's a gd now people hate me the same guy that was like yeah i'll give you crackers and tuna fish you know in a couple hour you know before lights out now all of a sudden i'm the enemy and i hated it so big part of a lot of my tattoos was to just get it out of the way that way if i'm fighting i'm fighting i'm just going to show up and we're going to fight um So I had a lot of nonsense, a lot of politics, prison politics. I had to go talk to people. And I remember getting yelled at by like the leader of the bloods,

get my hands out of my pocket. Now I'm getting yelled at. This is crazy. Why can't you have your hands in your pocket? Well, I mean, could have had a weapon in my pocket or something. You know, and I remember I walked up just kind of being like nervous and like, this is crazy. Like this is my life. I have to like go up and like, can I live here?

You know, like I'm a GD. I don't mean no trouble. You know, and I, uh, I, I did well. I think, you know, I think I was able to speak my issue and be like, you know, because obviously it was like, what are you in prison for? You know, do you have beef with the homies? You know, just, and if I did, I mean, would it really be that big of a deal? You know, I think back, I think that was probably another part of it. It was like, I wasn't much of a threat. So it was like, you know, if you want to give them a hard time, I had a couple

folks try to give me a hard time. And, you know, so. Hey, y'all's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what it. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.com.

Wayfair, every style, every home. It was definitely an experience. What does the teardrop tattoo represent? It means all kinds of things. It means you killed somebody. It means you have a reputation for killing people. You did a year in prison. You did 10 years in prison.

I mean, I've heard a million different things that it couldn't mean. I think for some people it means that they lost someone. For me, the number one reason why I have a tear drop on my face is because I was in prison and I was not thinking about coming home and being on a podcast or talking to the girl at best by about it. Or, you know, I never thought about like what happens when you're home from prison. I didn't think. And honestly, I told my mom when I was on my second year right before I had become a Christian, I said, I'm not coming home. I'm not coming home.

Like, this is, I knew because I knew when I went to the box, I did quite a bit of time back and forth in solitary for nonsense. Like, you know, they said I gave a threat on the phone. I never gave, but I wouldn't tell them who the bloods were in the picture they showed me. You know, there's just constant going back and forth to the box. So the last time I was in the box, I knew I was going to a max B or a max A prison. I said, well, I don't know if, like, having the tattoos concealed and like that's going to work this time around. So I need something that's going to be like, I'm here, you know, and ask about it. You know, figure it out.

And obviously, you've ever tattoo on your face. the majority of the time people assume you're in a gang so the next step was going to be what are you rep and it worked it worked right away next day i got to the minute i walked in the gate they were like you know it was popping i was like oh this isn't a good start but um you know obviously then i had to introduce myself and go and talk to leaders and you know for the most part you know one thing i tell people is and i'm sure you've probably seen in your experiences there's a lot of good people in prison and i don't think the larger majority of people even gang leaders really wanted to to stirred what they had going on, you know, which, again, it's not to say a bad thing, right?

I think everybody wants to kind of just keep their life balanced. And if you're in prison, you're doing a heavy amount of time and you have a certain amount of comfortability, you got this, like, young GD that comes in the jail. It's like, oh, God, just let him, if he's not being a threat in which I know I wasn't, leave him alone. Is there a tattoo for the GDs? Yeah, there's a star David, pitchforks, free Larry Hoover, you know, stuff like that. Why I star David?

The six, that's the six point star. So the six points of, so the star of David actually goes back to David Barksdale, who was the founder of, it's like, you know, I'm sure you know how gangs like they morph like comes from like one thing and that splinters into a million other things. And I don't want to give you a long boring history of the GDs. However, David Barksdale was the leader of one of the form,

like the groups that formed into the GDs and he was shot. So in his memory, they took on the story. They took on the star of David as a symbol. And then eventually it came to be like it meant each point meant something different. Do you think you ending up in prison got your mother sober? No. I think that it probably was a catalyst. I think when you and my brother and my sister were taken away, I think that was probably like a turning point from my mom.

But let's face it, addiction is vicious. And, you know, I think she, because she showed a lot of even when she was writing, to me from rehab and everything. There was a lot of potential for her to want to change. So I think she had like moment after moment. I'm sure me ending up in prison, her being on the run, having like dire hair and being on crime stoppers and probably just life hitting her at that point being like, and then she ended up in prison. So she ended up, well, not in prison. She ended up in the county jail, did like a program. And then during that time, she began to change. When you're in prison at that age, are you thinking about all the things you're missing out on?

Yes. Things kids your age should be doing? Yes. Yes. All the time. I would always think, like, you know, I'm sorry. I mean, I had one reminder. I was being transferred to solitary confinement, and it was March 3rd, 2000, whatever year, I guess, 2001.

Or two, no, it couldn't have been. It was 2004 or five. And I had a guard say to me, today's your birthday. It was my 21st birthday. And he said, well, you should be at a strip club. But it's time for you to strip. And there was my strip search. I was like, dang, I'll never forget that, obviously.

He always sits on my mind. I'm like, dang. I talk about missing out an experience, even though I doubt I would have been at a strip club. We were too busy causing whatever nonsense we were doing with our lives. But yeah, oftentimes I thought about, you know, the joy is also what I could have.

I had a great experience in the county jail. In the county jail, I got my GED. and the teacher that was there, she had me reading the Occupation Outlook handbook. I don't know why she had me reading it. I don't know what caused me to want to read it. But I remember reading it and like it gives you like a list of different jobs, how much they make, what you need to do to get the job. And I remember it just kind of like creating like ideas in my head.

I could go home and be the first G.D. sociologist on the island or, you know, like, again, never with the intention to like leave the gang lifestyle, but at least move into like. like a what does it mean to be an adult not the kid that like is has no car has no job is just relying on you know finding some money to make the day work what is it going to look like to become an adult and um that carried with me i think when i ended up in in the prison system i think i think i constantly was thinking about if i do go home who am i going to be you know and like i said i got to a point where i didn't think i was going to go home i was like this isn't going to be a good time but thank god like that that moment was transitionary i went to the box it did six months in the

the box. I got released. And the next, the last prison I ended up in Auburn Correctional Facility proved to be really just beneficial. You know, I found a man that, you know, was willing to invest in me, lead me through reading, reading about the Bible, reading about politics. And it changed my whole, you know, looking back, that's how I would describe it now, you know, and I would even say it was God intervening. But it was, there was such a, you know, just to see how life worked that I ended there and ended up in that experience. How did you meet him? So I got to the next jail and I remember walking up the tier and somebody said to me,

what's your name? You have gang affiliations. I said, I'm a GD. He said, you're going to have some issues in this jail. You've got to check in with somebody, this and that. And then I said, okay, I said, do you know how I could go to Catholic services? And no, no, I'm sorry. I said, do you know how I could go to Protestant services?

Because I had gone to Catholic services and Kaksaki, I was in a Kaksacki Correctional facility and I would go to Catholic services. It was cool to like sit there, but then I was like, I don't understand a thing these folks are talking about. You know, I don't know what's going on. They seem very religious and very like, you know, it didn't seem like engaging. Like nobody was like coming over and be like, hey, how are you other than like when

they say to go give, say peace to the person around you or whatever. So I was like, you know, um, you know, can I, maybe Protestant services will do it. Maybe it's like more because at least when I saw people coming from like church in the Protestant community, they seemed happy and like, you know, they were caught up in something. So I was like, I need a little bit of that in my life. So maybe I'll understand what's going on. You know, so I had asked, this guy said, I have the perfect person for you to meet.

Just like that. I met Paul. And Paul, you know, was just one of those, he said, yeah, I'll get you to go to Protestant services. He said, but before we do all that, what do you know about Jesus? You know, what do you know about God? What do you know about the Bible?

And obviously that was like speaking to me. And he took the time to say, you know, forget bringing the kid to church. you know, do you understand what's going on? What are you thinking about? And I had nothing. And I'm sure, like, he was older, so I'm sure he realized, like, this is a kid that needs some help.

Like, let's sit him down. Let's get him reading. Let's get him thinking. And, uh, and he did that. Why do you think you were willing to make a change in your life at that point in time? I was dissatisfied. I realized, like, most of my, like, friends on the streets, obviously. And then even in the gang culture, I think there was waning.

It was, like, kind of like, you know, there's still, you know, still some of my friends to this day that, you know, believe firmly in Latter. Hoover should be freed, which I believe in. I believe Larry Hoover should be freed, believe firmly in the principles of growth and development, which by and large, I would say I agree with them. And I don't know anybody that, you know, on the island at least, that's claiming GD that's running around gang banging. So to be clear, I don't think that's happening anymore. So that was a factor. I think people leaving and kind of just like waning that lifestyle waning. My mom changing her life was a big factor. Like she'd get away from drug addiction.

you're over here like doing what for what reason you know who are you pleasing and i think that was like a big uh catalyst for me and then i had one moment in prison that really uh changed in my mind about like the street life and like gang life and it was uh i had somebody if i have to back up i guess and try to bring in on the whole thing there so i'm in kakshacki correctional facility and they have um they're doing the six riders and the the five rider because GD's like there's like one in every four jails like it's you know it's like silly for us to try to think we're going to be a prison gang uh so you end up clicking up with like the crips and but the problem was that was always kind of shifty because that's like some sort of alliance that nobody

knows where it came from or what it's about so um and then you know yeah again people from different neighborhoods where there was an early beef starting to brew which is pretty bad now in new york city so um you know so i did the six rider gang whatever i'm um i'm click up with these guys and I just disagreed with the way everything was going like they wanted to plot against the bloods but then like they're over there getting the hair braided with the blood and it was just like this big thing to me that I was like I'm not understanding like if you're not my friend and like you remember my mentality has always been just you stay over there and I'll stay over here but if you're saying we're going to go attack them and then you're hanging out over there I'm like

what? Like now we just sound like we're creating problems like you know why don't you just not go over there and like we can be over here and that was a problem so then it was like oh well no now we can go we need to all go pop on them right now I was I was like, no, I'm also not going to be dragged into that. Like, I don't want to do that. You know, and then it turned into now them versus me. And now we're going to go over there where we're getting our hair braided and tell them that you're causing issues.

So now there's this whole thing where the bloods are going to come and get me. And I knew, I knew it was coming. And they, one kid came, one kid punched me. They made the mistake. One kid punched me first. And the other one swung. And he tried to cut me. Got me really quick.

I made my hand in my face over here. And I like turned quick. And I stood there with three weeks till my parole board. Gotta go. Got to go. So I just chased them. Chase the kid that I knew had the razor. And chased after him.

And my friend said that it appeared as though angels saved me in that moment. I just ran up, started fighting, hitting him. My friends luckily did what their people jumped. Everybody just started a whole out mob, which is why you're talking to me today probably without a cut face, you know, because I think everybody just jumping in and creating a little calamity there. to make a long story short, obviously the guards intervene, boom, boom, the bells, you know, doing the whole mess. They said that we had 20 to 40 people fighting in the yard.

So now I go to the box, right? Well, we're not at the box yet. We're kind of like in the cells, the holding cells before you go to, you know, they get transferred. And I'm listening on the gate, which this is like my moment of glory. Like, come on now. Somebody tried to cut me. I chased him. We're fighting.

And I'm sitting on the gate. and I hear the white boy blew it up blew what up and I'm sitting there I'm saying what and I'm listening to them talk and they said that I should have held down that the kid tried to cut me and waited I guess

like they didn't say it in these words but basically that I should wait and go out the next day I guess and get him no that doesn't make any sense and it was that night that I said you can't please anybody you can't please everybody that makes no sense

like to a logical mind a prison i guess you know prism mind somebody tries to cut you what do you do next you don't sit on it and say like hmm maybe tomorrow like i just couldn't so for me coupling that coupling with other things going on in my life things have to change and it didn't begin with Christianity or with that man that i was talking about in the yard it began backing up a bit it began with me reading just really reading and taking in like uh honestly i was trying to get as far away from Catholicism and Christianity for a period while I was up north that I didn't want to didn't want to navigate into the Christian thing. Paul made it real and spoke to my level, but backing up

like probably six, seven months, which is so weird, things in prison felt like they were like a lifetime. Like I always sit there and I look at my like faith journey and I'm like, it was like seven months of me like thinking and like I read the Zohar. I read a couple of mythology books. There's only so many seven-headed dragons and this guy eating this guy's kid and spin him out and that's God. So I'm now I'm like I think I got it figured out I think I know God better than these people and kind of found myself in that rut and that's when eventually I ended up meeting Paul and you know saying like I need I need some substance to what I believe so I think coupling all that to kind of get to the point there and answer your question coupling all that was really a part of me saying I'm moving away

from this lifestyle and I again I don't know that I guess the reason why it was it takes a lot for me to say all that is that I don't know that I ever found myself there. I don't know that I was ever like I'm leaving. I think I just grew up, right, moved on, started doing different things, plowing my mind to different areas. Is that hard to walk away? What do you mean? Well, I mean, say you're in prison, one day you're riding with the gang and the next day you set up, you know, I'm not doing this anymore. How do they react to that? Well, the gang, the gang life, I don't know that anybody was really trying to gun for me to be like because I never made like this thing like

I've done this in gang intervention is I don't really promote going to your gang and being like I want to leave it just sounds and it's not I don't want to create humor here it's not the right thing to do it's not that's not it's not it I don't know who's telling people

to do that that needs to stop you don't go and tell you gang you want to leave what you do is you do what you would do next after you told you gang that you were going to leave right which is probably move apply your mind to something else and that's what I did I applied my mind to something else I don't think I ever offended anybody I don't think people felt like I was you know that's bad you're bad people no it was just listen this is what I'm doing with my life I'm gonna go in this direction um all the while

agreeing even you know to this day I still tell people I agree with a lot of the values that you know Larry Hoover has taught I agree with I mean but I could go across the board like I could say I agree with things that uh king tone or king blood from the Latin king so then I'd be like but I'm not I never was a member of those groups, you know. So I definitely agree with like the mentality. So I never offended anybody. I think that was a big part of it. Dare I say, maybe that's a good part of gang intervention is right.

Don't offend. Just try to do everything you can to be move away and do your own thing, do the right thing. And, you know, if you made commitments and, you know, that becomes a whole evolving conversation because people have asked me that like, how do you get people to leave gangs? I'm like, we need context here, right? There's no one size fits all. It's probably the worst thing to do is like create a one. one-size-fits-all mentality.

For me, it was easy to move away from that, I think more so within myself because that's where I found my identity, right? That's who I am. So for me, that's always been, and even to this day, I think it's like this process of saying, like, you disavow that, you disagree with that.

Yeah, I think it's tricky. It's tricky to think about it, again, from the personal, like the physical reality, it wasn't hard. But the mindset and dare I even say the brainwashing, that comes with it, it's tricky to get away from. What was your plan for when you got out of prison?

Well, it changed, obviously, from the day that I told my mom, I wasn't going to come home from prison. I went to the box. I think phase three would be where I guess I would say I began to think about going home. So phase three in New York State prison, closer to like the end of your bid. I think when you're going home, you had like three months to go home. They put you through a program. That's when I began, like, really thinking, like, I'm going home. and I remember there was a man named Malik that was just inspiring and kind of made me think like

I want to be a better person like he spoke in ways he was a five percenter and he would often talk about like when he goes home um no man uh according to like you know the dictates of Islam and as he understood them uh no man can enter into the home of another man without the man's permission and the fact that he was even talking like that like in prison right like that's pretty inspiring like this man's already thinking about like honoring his wife and honoring his home and he goes home that was like a kickstart for me like you know i was already i had been committed to be you know a christian and been out in the yard talking to people about god knows what um you know that's the good thing about continuing to learn as you look back and you're like i don't know what i was talking about

um i uh i used to believe that like you know we needed to get ready and flee to the mountains so was a big theological thing and i've luckily i've moved away from that idea so i'm sure i was out in the yard telling these guys when you get home from prison you got to move to the mountains. I think, you know, sitting in that phase three class and being, and again, having the foundation of that Occupation Outlook Handbook that I got in the county jail, I think there was always like that catalyst of like, if I do go home, I can become something, I can do something, I can apply myself.

Doing the phase three definitely put some flesh on it. Like I was like, okay, so you can go home and try to get a job. You can, like, there are companies that, a parent. are being given funding to hire felons. I've never really heard. I don't know if you've ever met anybody that got employed by them, but I hear about it a lot. It sounds like a nice idea.

And if it was to just give me hope, that's great. And I hope that we might flesh that out a little better and actually have people employed by the organizations. So that was kind of like my willingness to, you know, I'm going to go home. I'm going to change. I'm going to, when I go home, I guess to answer your question about what it was I was going to do.

I don't know that I I don't know that I had a real plan. I think it was when I go home and try to get a job and that was a big one. Get a job. I learned in my lived experiences that getting a job is the biggest thing. You have to do something with your time. Otherwise, especially if you were involved with knucklehead stuff like I was,

you're going to end up just getting swipe right back into that world. Getting a job. Probably a good place to land. What was the reality of going home? Intimidating, right? Or you mean like when I got home what it was like? Yeah, what it was like. My mom and my brother picked me up, went to Dunkin' Donuts, stopped by Lake George, looked around at the water and said, I'm free, you know, walk down the dock.

I guess what you're supposed to do, right? Like, take it in somehow. Go to a mountain top, you know, free. And then went home, and ironically enough, my aunt was getting married the next day. So it was pretty cool because I came home and like had to hit the ground run and go get a haircut at the barbershop. One thing I've learned about myself is purpose. Like if purpose keeps me moving, right? So that goes back to even joining the gang and everything else.

So it's interesting to look at how that was designed when I came home. And I don't think anybody designed it that way. It's just life where I had something to like commit to. Like I'm going to this wedding. I'm going to get, you know, all ready and done up. And then I came home and obviously it was pretty hard to like touch base. People you expected like the coming home party. Like, you know, everybody's like, you're home.

You know, that didn't happen. I just like, there was no coming home party. It was like begging people like, hey, you want to hang out? I think I found myself like three days later, like on a swing set with like this girl I know, like talking about life. Definitely not what I thought I was going to like come home to, you know what life was going to look like. Probably talking about like, I need to get a dang job. And, yeah, that was it. It was just very simple.

Right. I came home and I knew I needed to get a job. And I put it I went with my brother to go to UPS. We applied to UPS and I was told that I had been the guy when I told him I was like, He said, how long you've been out of jail? Eight days? He was like, I can't hire you. I was like, why?

I was like, I need a job. I'm trustworthy, I promise. Like I have no reason not to trust me. And he was just like, listen, you seem like a good kid. He said, but I can't, I can't, I'm 23 at this time. And he's like, I can't hire you. Oh, that's crazy. And I remember being so depressed, but I kept putting the word out, told people I needed to get a job, got a job as a cook.

So I'm kind of committed to that for a bit. What year was that? 2006. So now we're 20 years later. Where did that path take you? Jeez, right. So I got a job. We'll start there.

That was the key. Get a job. And I worked in one job, a job. as a cook, unfortunately, I went through three years of prison with nobody physically touching me, and I was working at a cook job for about three weeks, and somebody decided to, like, joking around. You know, everybody, a bunch of guys joking and laughing and, like, smack my butt. And I just looked up. I was looking at him, and I was like, because, like, I'm just not that person.

Like, I don't need to fight you. Like, I get it. It's not that big of a deal. But it is. Because now somebody thinks that, like, you know, like, in my, like, it just creates. created this whole crazy construct. I was like, you know what? I'm never coming back to this job again.

I walked out, walked all the way home. It was like a two hour walk, walked all the way home, and never went back. And I remember the guy calling me, he's like, what happened? I was like, you know what, dude? It's not even worth like, I can't come back there and work. I just couldn't like mentally deal with it. You know, obviously I look back now.

I would handle that so differently. And so, and I feel bad because it was disrespectful to the, you know, the company, but it was, I didn't have to like form, you know, like, oh my God, how do I deal with this? You know, and it was just, yeah, it was a mess. So I worked, I worked, I ended up getting a job of Victoria's Secret, which obviously didn't come

of like me going into Victoria's Secret and getting a job. I had a friend that told me that they were doing a thing at Victoria's Secret on Good Friday where they need people to come in and help. So I came in. At the end of the day, lady said to me, I heard you looking for a job. You need a job?

I was like, yes. She said, I want you to go online, fill out the application. She said, fill it out, which I always think back to. She said, fill it out like you're filling out a job application, which I didn't understand what that meant. I told a couple people that were like, lie. I was like, she said, you know, which again, for me wouldn't be a lie. Like, I don't know if you filled out any of those job applications in recent years

where, you know, like some of the questions like, you know, would you go to a manager if, you know, this situation happened? I don't know that I think that's a lie. I think that's the proper thing to do. So like, I'm glad to look back and say, I didn't have to lie on that. I just actually said, like, this is what I would do. I ended up getting the job, and I worked at Victoria's Secret for six years.

And I was stock. I was sales, which is a nightmare. I had to wear a band-aid for a little bit. And then eventually they said, you know, Mike's all right. Let them take the band-aid off. And it was weird, but, you know, people get past it because usually I just keep it short. You know, I'm like, it's prison tats. It's you don't really need to understand it.

You know, leave me alone, please. What size you? What size? And then I moved to fly. Florida, kept working at Victoria's Secret. I did the, I worked at a couple different, like working as a chef, but it was like very short term. I did learn, I had a man that was an Indonesian cook and he taught me everything I know about

cooking. So I developed like, even to his day, people say, Mike cooks a lot. Mike loves to cook. And I do. It's just from that man teaching me a passion of like, if it tastes good, you could put it together, you can make all kinds of things work, you know? And I remember being like, wow, this is amazing. So I did that.

Worked at Victoria's Secret, went from Victoria's Secret, worked at Star. In the midst of all this, I'm serving, I started a church in my mom's backyard in her garage, even almost lit the garage on fire one time teaching about hell. And then, you know, did that for a bit and became known as the guy that had a church in his mom's backyard for a bit. And then two years later, 2008, I moved to Florida. I took up an internship in a church in Florida, a church that was willing to take a chance, right? Willing to say, this guy doesn't have any real background in the church.

But I told him, I said, listen, I'm willing to learn, give me a job, give me a position. I have a couple little certifications I did through the Bible, you know, different courses. I'm going to enroll in Gordon Conwell. I'm going to, you know, get my seminary degree. Give me a job. And they gave me a job. Let me come down there. Obviously, it was part-time.

So, you know, I was working at Starbucks or working at Victoria's Secret first and working at Starbucks and going to my, you know, my church to work and then helping set up on Sunday mornings and doing all that. I was a connection group leader. So I would go to like Bible studies throughout the week. and basically do like a Francis Chan had a book called Crazy Love. He did these like six segments of teachings. We'd watch the segments and talk about it in a group.

And I'd get like a stipend at the end of the week for my pastoral duties, right? And serving on staff. That's where I was at with my jobs and working. Now, I guess where I'll transition, which becomes a bit churchy, but that's where my life went if you're talking to a pastor. So, you know, I guess that's where I'll let the cat out of the bag. there and which is a phrase I never understood by the way because I always made the joke and I have to stop with dad jokes at this point of my life because I'm already getting started but it's a you

always say why is the cat in the bag in the first place yeah we put the cat in the bag what is that so anyway I so that church really took a chance with me and shout out to Matt Keller you know they were just a great church and still a great church and took a chance I got involved there doing the connection group leader then I get offered, well, eventually we had some issues there where, again, I believe you needed to move to the mountains. Like, and I was pretty firm on it. Like, I was like, you know, I had the Antichrist figured out all the numbers and everything, all that weird stuff. And I said, we got to get ready to move to the mountains. And they were like, listen, we're over here serving like the people in our community. We're like helping people. We're like, you know, trying to teach people about the love of God. And you're over here, scaring people. Like, relax. You know, that's not what we're doing. And I couldn't do it. I was like, no way.

Like this is no, no, you know, I have to leave this church. So I left, left the church. And then luckily there was another church that thought I was probably nuts. Well, I know they thought I was nuts. But they were like, he has a lot of passion. Give him a job, you know, give him, get him an internship. So I got an internship working there. Unfortunately, I'm a thinker.

So I read a lot. I think a lot, things, I need things to make sense. Kind of like if you think about where I took you so far today, even if the story doesn't make any sense at least there are things about the story that I needed to make sense like you know I'm sitting on the gate and I'm listening to these guys talk about I didn't hold it down what like so from that moment like I've learned like I'm one of those people I need things to make sense it's been a lot of trouble in Christian ministry needing things to make sense and uh lost the internship uh over some theological views so I started a church at Starbucks and uh we would meet at Starbucks got about 40 people on a Thursday night coming in and You get free Starbucks. I worked there. So I was able to get us free Starbucks, you know, the whole thing.

It was a nice setup. And I did that for a bit. And then somebody told me I needed to have an online presence. And so I started a podcast on a blog talk and I was doing that for a bid. And somebody told me, why don't you write what? People always told me, like you should write a book. You got a lot to talk about. You got a lot of interesting things going on in your life.

And I wrote a book. book and then sure enough I'm now at this point I'm in Florida I'm in Fort Myers Florida sure enough a church from New York contacts me and says would you like to come up here and do a debate with other pastors and like it's like I'm going back to Long Island like that's cool and I'm going on a panel as like a you know I know it all and they brought me up there and I ended up bumping into a church that said we need a pastor you want to come past our church I was like I moved I live in Florida. No. You know, why, who does that? You know, goes from Florida, New York.

I heard a lot of folks going from New York to Florida. No, I don't want to come to New York. My mom heard about it somehow. I think people kept talking about it. My mom called me and said, you know, they're offering you a church on Long Island. You know, you're going to consider the opportunity. I have no idea what this is going to look like. You know, what? The church, I'm going to be their senior pastor. So I'm a connection group leader. I'm an intern. You know, I'm not like, you know, this is wild. By the way, at this time, I'd gone through Gordon Conwell.

I've gone through, you know, I did a couple things. I went to business school. I got my associates in management and marketing in Florida. So hopefully you catch the wind that. I just kept myself busy. It just, you know, stayed busy. That's why, you know, did the gang life look at me and say, you know, it's like, folks, can you keep up?

You know, if you guys keep up, I'm down. You know, let's do this. I so I ended up accepting the pastorate and I'll kind of land here and breathe for a moment but I accepted the pastorate and this is in 2013 so yeah I was in Florida for 2008 to 2013 and then I came back here accepted it then it was a you know the church offered you know a salary offered you know living you know expenses and it was like wow this is such a blessing for a person who is really just doing it because and you know that's this is what god has taught me this is where i'm living my experience i'm not trying to fake it i'm not trying to sell anybody

on anything you know i think you could probably understand that um and it's been amazing it's you know so i ended up uh i've been there since i'm still the pastor of bifloid bible church um and uh it's been interesting at this point i've done uh since 2013 i've done public debates i've done uh written books at this point. I've more recently engaged prison reform going back and doing, you know, advocating for the Second Look Act in New York, working with different organizations. So really just, I guess you could say for the last, since I came home from prison, it's been a, it's been a busy time. Good for you, man. Thank you. What do you think's been the biggest attribute to keeping yourself out of trouble past 20 plus years? Purpose. Staying motivated.

obviously, you know, we would give it all the God. I would give it all the God. And, you know, God's definitely been there. I'd say an intimate relationship with God. But really just staying busy. You know, there's a Bible verse that stands out to me all the time. It's a man that puts his hand to the plow and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God. And I hope I've walked further of it.

When you, you know, when life turns out the way it does, do you think that, you know, everything happens, specifically in your childhood for a reason, not having a father figure, your dad leaving, those things were intentional. Yes. And before I came here today, the one thing I said I have to say on the show would be mindset is everything. Absolutely. You know, my younger years, I had the privilege of having a mindset where I've kind of, I guess I've always been like the cup is full, right?

I forget how that goes. A glass half full. Yeah, I still don't understand that. It's another one, right? Where do we get these things from? You know, but I've always been that optimist. And I'm still, you know, sometimes to my detriment, but I'm an optimist. And I think not everything deserves an optimistic attitude.

Sometimes you've got to be like, as I heard you say, something I think that was very influential for me was all good things come to an end, right? And that idea is that, yeah, this is good for now, but are we like, you know, you're looking out? You're making sure we are we planning ahead? And I think that's just been formidable. for me right is to be willing to do the work be willing to go through the bumps and bruises be willing to say mindset is everything that you know looking back now i could sit there and i could have a woe is me right that's the phrase people would use like a woe is me attitude um not faulting people that have that attitude but knowing for me it's being willing to say those experiences actually without them you know and i've

told my mother i've heard my mom has apologized to me at some moments you know where she'll say you know i'm sorry for some of the experiences, the things you had to go through. And I always tell I, I like who I am. Those experiences made me. You know, and that, to me, is, that's how life works. You know, if you take these experiences and you allow, you allow them to build you up. I think that's the meaning behind another Bible verse I would bring up

would be all things work for the good of those that love God and are called according to his purpose. What would present day you tell teenage you right before he was about to join a gang? What would you have said to him? Ironically enough, I don't know that I would say don't join the gang. I would say, make sure you're learning. Make sure you're developing your, I use the term before, cognitive skills.

And I say that because I have a desire to work with younger people that were my age. And I think that's what's needed. As I think it's not so much, I don't know that we could keep people away from troubling experiences or bad people. But what we can do is give people the skills, the resources, the mental wherewithal to say, that's not right. doesn't make any sense. That doesn't, you know, work. And that's what I would want to do is, I think the best advice I would tell myself is pay attention, learn. And if things seem wrong,

don't do them. Mike, I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show today. Thank you. This is great. Yeah. Love your energy. I'm so happy for you and continue blessings for your future endeavors. And we'll have the link to your book and then your socials and whatnot and description this episode. Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate the time. Thank you.