Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was A Lawyer For The Mexican Mafia — Then Got 6 Years in Arizona Prison | Jason Keller

Episode Date: September 7, 2026

Jason Keller became a criminal defense attorney in Arizona, developed addictions to drugs and alcohol that compromised every professional boundary available, took on clients who were members of the New Mexican Mafia, and eventually crossed the single most alarming line available for an officer of the court — smuggling drugs and cell phones into prison for the same clients he was supposed to be defending — before getting caught and receiving a sentence of over six years inside the Arizona state prison system he had spent his career navigating from the other side of the courtroom. _____________________________________________ #mexicanmafia #arizona #truecrimestory #prisonstory #lawyer _____________________________________________ Thank you to PRIZEPICKS & FACTOR for sponsoring this episode: PrizePicks: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/IANBICK and use code IANBICK and get $150 if you win your first $5 lineup! _____________________________________________ Factor: Head to https://factormeals.com/lockedin50off and use code lockedin50off to get 50 percent off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year, while supplies last until 10/31/2026 _____________________________________________ Connect with Jason Keller: https://www.instagram.com/soberithm?stkn=OTVsbDlpbWhnbjM3 _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Intro: A Lawyer's Fall 00:34 Early Life and Legal Beginnings 03:10 Career as a Public Defender 05:43 Early Career and Private Practice 08:36 The Path to High-Profile Clients 12:39 Blurring Lines and Rationalizing Wrongs 15:04 The Plea Bargain System 20:46 First Drug Use and College Life 24:01 Addiction in the Family 26:30 Why Criminal Defense? 30:52 The Best Trial Attorneys 33:11 Respect for Public Defenders 38:42 Why the DUI Wasn't a Wake-Up Call 42:39 Life on Probation and Relapse 46:00 Treatment and the Road to Sobriety 52:00 A Moment of Clarity 54:00 Facing the Bar and Moving Forward 57:00 Drug Use in Daily Life 01:01:02 Did You Hurt Clients? 01:08:26 The Story of the Arrest 01:11:44 The Paperwork and the Heroin 01:21:03 Addiction and Decision-Making 01:23:50 Saying No and the Fallout 01:26:56 The Phone Request and Intimidation 01:31:44 Living in Fear and Paranoia 01:35:38 Getting the Phone In 01:38:48 The Charger and the Arrest 01:41:12 The Arrest and Bond 01:44:19 Family Reaction and the Fallout 01:46:56 Judge Takes Him Into Custody 01:49:41 Fear of the Mexican Mafia 01:52:00 The Second Case and Father's Involvement 01:56:00 Plea Negotiations and New Prosecutor 02:00:00 The Deal Falls Apart 02:04:00 Sentencing and Prison Time 02:06:36 The Extra Years 02:09:00 Punished for Not Cooperating 02:11:48 Life in Prison 02:16:12 Surprising Lessons from Prison 02:20:56 Good People in Prison 02:24:20 Re-Entry and Rehabilitation 02:25:25 Total Time Served and Reflection 02:27:23 Meeting His Wife and Telling His Story 02:28:48 Family and Children 02:30:56 Speaking Out and Helping Others 02:34:58 What He Knows Now 02:37:02 Gratitude and a New Life _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka  

I took drugs into the jail, and it happened kind of, I want to say unsuspecting way, but it sort of, you know, was unsuspecting. I represented a client that he was in there for murder. That's Jason Keller. He spent his career inside Arizona courtrooms as a criminal defense attorney, but somewhere along the way, the line between attorney and client disappeared. What happened next sent him into the same prison system he spent his career navigating from the other side. I grew up mostly in Tempe, Arizona. I'm originally born in Allentown, Pennsylvania. Lived my early childhood there, but my parents moved out to Arizona.

And we resettled in Tempe. I lived for 35 years in Tempe and went to Arizona State. I went to law school in Texas, though. Law school is out of Texas Southern. and it's called Thurgood Marshall School of Law. And then I came back to Arizona. And I initially had a internship with the Maricopa County Attorney's Office as an intern during I think it was my third year of law school.

And I didn't really, it was with the juvenile department. And I really had never imagined myself going into criminal law. I wanted to be like an entertainment lawyer or some big shot. know, criminal law just didn't interest me. But after that internship of the county attorney's office, it really sparked my interest. I liked the idea of helping kids, even though it was from the prosecution side, I thought there was a lot of good that could be done to help kids and help them to sort of navigate some of the issues that they have as young people and stay out of trouble. And so that kind of turned me to criminal law.

And I probably would have ended up working at the Maricopa County Attorney's Office, except for the fact that during, after that internship, at some point, I don't know the timeline exactly, but I ended up getting a misdemeanor DUI. And so that prevented me from becoming a county attorney. But what it didn't prevent me from doing was I then went to the public defender's office. They're willing to hire people. Wait, really? Yeah.

Wow. Yeah. And my cousin had worked at the public defender's office and she said, come on over here. We hire people with criminal convictions and not felonies, but it was just a misdemeanor. And, you know, I did everything I was supposed to do for it. And I disclosed it to the state bar and did everything they asked me to do. do in order to get admitted because it wasn't just a straight admission because I had had that on my record. So I went through all the hoops that they required for that. And then I went to work at the

Public Defender's Office. And it really, even from that side of it, as opposed to the prosecution, it was really interesting. And I think I really had a flare for it. And I enjoyed helping people. you know, sometimes, you know, people think, well, you know, how can you defend somebody that's guilty? And it's more like, for me, it's defending the Constitution, defending due process. I mean, everybody should have an opportunity to be heard. And you're not trying to necessarily get people out of, you know, the wrongs that they may or may not have done. but it's just to make sure and ensure that the process is fair. And, you know, the public defender's office was a great training ground for me.

I did a lot of trials in my first year and a half there and got a lot of good experience and good training. But that's sort of where things started off for me as an attorney. And I did really well. And, you know, I was sort of, you know, I was, you know, I was sort of, you know, I have a, I'm a drug addict and it's a progressive disease. So I didn't really understand that I was a drug addict early on. And I don't know at what point it became, at some point you can't drink and use without consequences.

And that's when, you know, when it starts to interfere with your life and you're breaking the law by using illegal drugs, you know, it becomes a problem. But when I was at the public. Defender's Office, it wasn't really, I didn't really have any issues that were interfering with my professional life. I showed up on time to court. I established a very good reputation for myself while I was at the Public Defender's Office and I was recruited out of there into private practice. I worked for a private firm for about a year. It was mostly DUIs that I did, misdemeanor DUIs in different counties, different cities.

There was some felony work, but it was really a DUI-centered practice that I was part of. And so I got to learn a lot about DUI law. And, you know, that was my early career. And then, you know, as things progressed from there, I sort of, when I was there, I started to have trouble in my marriage and my first marriage. and that sort of, you know, sent me into like a, I didn't really understand how to deal with it in a healthy way. I just sort of was like, I wasn't willing to face the pain of the divorce and, you know, I wanted to blame everybody but myself. and my only understanding of how to manage, like, my emotions or anything like that was, you know,

well, what do you do? You, I drink, I go out, I blow off steam and I had this sense of entitlement. Like, I work hard all week. I'm going through a divorce. I deserve to get drunk. And the issue for me was, you know, I can't stop. I can't drink like a normal person. So to me, I'm not just having one or two drinks.

I'm drinking until I'm like on autopilot. And then there's no telling what can happen. But I was able to navigate that for a little while. And then I decided that I should go into my own practice. Kind of out of falling out with that private firm, I thought he was going to promote me. He didn't. So I had my own clientele that I was getting in.

And I decided to go off on my own. I partnered up with my cousin, who was also at the public defenders, had started her practice. So I partnered up with her for about a year. And it went okay. Still kind of, you know, I want to say that my behavior was looking back on it now. I wasn't really dealing with my, you know, divorce or anything like that, issues that I had outside of my professional life. It was like, I had no life outside of work.

It was only, I'm going to go get loaded and have fun. I get to have as much fun as possible because in my mind, fun was I'm going to go get drunk. and it's actually it's not that much fun for me when I when I think about it now it's it was just an immature reaction and an unhealthy reaction to what I was going through in my life and I think at that point when I was you know kind of behaving in that way I started to be very successful I made some money and I started getting clients that were, you know, I thought the kind of clients that a criminal attorney would want. You know, I aspired to be, you know, I wanted to be the best criminal attorney in the state.

And, you know, I was a young attorney. I'd only had about three to five years experience. So, you know, those are big aspirations. and it takes time to get to that point. And I don't think I really understood that then. Even though I had won trials and done lengthy trial, I did a really lengthy trial that I don't, there's probably a lot of lawyers out there now

that have never done a five-week trial. I mean, that's most trials are three, four days. So a five-week trial is, you know, that's a lot of experience. And it gives you sort of an understanding. of what it takes to be a trial attorney. And I just thought that because I had done all these things, I was so great. And it was, you know, this false sense of ego. And I just, I took clients that, again, I thought were the ones that I was supposed to be taking. And so my cousin and I kind of had

falling out about that because she thought, I don't want to take these certain kind of clients. I want to stick to misdemeanors, DUIs, something that's low pressure. I don't want to do felonies. And I was like, but we're criminal attorneys. We're supposed to be taking like the big criminals. I never wanted to like commit crime or be a part of any kind of criminal organization or be like the guy for, you know, the, mafia or the brotherhood or any sort like I didn't want to be a part of that but I wanted to be

a lawyer that you know a criminal would want to hire um I think that's what my thinking was was like if you want to be the best at your craft what does that look like you know so for me I had it in my head that well if you're the best criminal defense attorney then every criminal should want to hire you if they get in trouble. And, you know, I just, I couldn't really understand the significance of that type of thinking at that time in my life because I was emotionally immature, my substance abuse issues. You know, when you're inactive addiction, those, those, those, lines start to get kind of blurry, you know, you start to, you know, think that, um, the rules, you know, they, they, they apply to you, but for example, the, the, the, the, the

scenario that we just spoke about before we were on, you know, um, if I thought that, um, an inmate should have like a candy bar in a trial, you know, then I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. And why not? I mean, if he's hungry and he's getting jail food and we're in trial and he's got to go through this, what's wrong with me giving him a candy bar? And that's the wrong kind of thinking because what's wrong with it is the jail says you can't give them a candy bar. They can't have anything from outside. And so you start to think in your head that rules don't apply to you, well, I can do this and why, you know, what's wrong with it? And those are the small little things that start to, you know, erode slowly. It's just a small erosion and then you

start to, you know, do things that you normally wouldn't do. And part of that is being an active addiction. You don't, the boundaries sort of just blur out. And it's, it's not really, noticeable at the time. I can only identify it now when I look back on the behavior when I'm, you know, I'm 52 years old about, you know, in a couple of days. And so this is all happening, you know, over 20 years ago or about 20 years. Yeah, about 20 years ago. So I was just a young attorney and I should have known better. But when you're using drugs and you're using them every weekends, sometimes every other day. You just sort of, your brain isn't working the way it's supposed to work.

Like there's a whole neurology, a neuroscience, to how your brain functions. And so I don't even completely understand that still, but I know that it definitely affects the decision-making process. And so when you're unable to understand the truth from the false, it's a affects your decision-making process to your detriment. I mean, and when I say you can't distinguish the truth from the false, it's like your brain tells you, you know, this drug is bad for me. It's telling me, I know that it's bad for me, but my brain is telling me, no, you're going to feel good from it.

So which one is it? Like, am I going to feel good or is it bad for me? And so my brain is like in this conflict. And when that's constantly going on, is this good? Is this good? Is this bad? Is this good? Is this bad? It can be overwhelming and really affect day-to-day decisions. And as we know, it did for me. You know, the justice system, I want to say something because I saw one of your podcasts recently

and you had a prosecutor on. and he was saying something about the plea bargain process using that like as leverage to you know for people wanting to get out and using the plea bargain as leverage and when they don't have bail yeah when they don't have bail and I I remember a case that I had and that happened that's happened to me as the defense attorney there was a client and she was in custody and she was a multi-codefendant case. There was allegations of, there was gang allegations involved and she didn't have the money to bond out, but she really wanted to bond out. And so the plea offer, we went to court and there was a plea offer for probation. And she was saying, well, I really,

I haven't, I didn't do this. And I said, well, then you can't plead guilty to this. We cannot make a factual basis for this. Well, I want to. get out. And I'm like, well, if you didn't do it, then I can't, you can't tell the court that you did this. If you didn't do it, like if the only way I can ask for you to be released is for you to take this plea, then it would be a change in circumstance. And then I can ask for your release pending the sentencing. And she goes, well, I want to do that. I'm like, yeah, but you just said that you didn't do it. and in my review of the case it didn't look like there was I mean arguably I don't think there was much evidence there I don't remember exactly this is 25 years ago um but I remember thinking yeah

there's there's not really much I don't I'm not even sure how we make the factual basis but I don't you can't either you are going to admit that you did this and stand in front of the court and you know tell the court that you did this or we're going to fight this and you're you can't take this plea and we'll set it to trial she goes well this is just i need to get out so i'm going to say that i did it i'm like okay well i mean if that's what you want to do like i can't stop you from from doing that and so she did that she made a factual basis and she said yes i did do this and um so the judge at that point i said well judge since it's a pleaded probation. It's a change in circumstance.

Please consider releasing her pending the sentencing. He did that. He released her. And sentencing was set out for like two months. And she showed up after the two months. And she came back. And, you know, it just made me think like the person was willing to say that she did something that she didn't do just so she could get out. And when I saw that podcast, it made me think of that.

And I just, it happens. Like, these kind of things really happen in our system. And it's, it's alarming. So not everybody is necessarily guilty of what they do. I mean, me, I'm definitely guilty of what I did. Was that a major case, like a felony case that she got probation for? Yeah, it was a felony. So it was, she was the girl,

friend of a high well of a ranking member of what they call the new mexican mafia so in Arizona there's the old Mexican mafia and then there was a a faction that split off called the new Mexican mafia it happened sometime in the 90s and this is all according to police reports and things of that nature I don't have any specific personal knowledge of it but this is just what I've read as an attorney in different police reports there's a new Mexican mafia and it actually from my time in prison in the Department of Corrections, they actually have different security threat groups that are divided out. So there are old Mexican mafia is what they call it.

And then there's new Mexican mafia. And this guy was a ranking member of the new Mexican mafia. This was his girlfriend. And I think that the accusation was something like she had put some money on his books. And they thought, or maybe it was, it wasn't the money on the books it was something to do with the burner phone the facts are fuzzy

but they had alleged that she had helped him in some way he's in custody she's out of custody at the time and it was yeah it was a bigger case there was probably about 20 different co-defendants it centered around

uses of burner they had gotten some bunch of different burner phones and were using the burner phones to conduct whatever business that they were alleged to be conducting with these burner phones. And they were willing to give her probation

without flipping? Yeah. Yeah. And I think they were willing to give her the probation because they knew they didn't have they didn't really have much. So usually when you get a good deal, it's because they don't have a case. And so

I mean, if she would have been willing to sit until there would have been a trial, I mean, potentially we could have beat that case. But, you know, the client makes their decision and that's what it is. How did you first start using drugs and why? Did that happen in college or before or after? Yeah, it happened in college. So I was out of high school and I tried my first drug after high school. Well, let me back up. That's not true. It depends on what you. So marijuana is a drug.

So I tried marijuana in high school a few times, you know, some weekends, weekend warrior type of marijuana use and alcohol. But I never, I didn't try cocaine until after, or after high school, I tried cocaine. And it was, you know, sporadic use, social use is what I call it. That's what I did call it. I think it was like the genesis of a drug addiction because, you know, I, I, I liked it a lot of how it made me feel. And I noticed that I was different when I used it than most other people.

I generally didn't want to stop, but life and responsibilities would make me stop to a certain degree. I would never go into like the week. You know, it would be like a Friday night thing. But it wasn't, I thought at the time, like, I was just doing it like everybody else, you know, so just a college guy experimenting with some cocaine. And I think I had tried methamphetamine or something, you know, like I think they called it crystal meth back then. Now they call it something else. They call it G or...

I've never heard of that one. You were also at the biggest party school in the country, right? Yeah, and they partied, man. They partied. It's pretty crazy. I got kicked out for, I was smoking, I got caught smoking marijuana in my fraternity house, and the president kicked me out for it. And it turns out they ended up voting me back in, which was fortunate for me. But that same president of the fraternity, it turns out he was doing cocaine.

So what a hypocrite he was. You know, we did party a lot. I mean, there was a party every night. There's certain, like every, I want to say there's this different special every single night at some bar at ASU. And it's different now, though. So my daughter goes there currently, and it's a very different place. I'm not saying it's not a party school, but the atmosphere is different. It's like really built up before it was.

a much smaller type, intimate, like dive bars and little places. And, you know, there was never really any trouble with fake IDs. Now they're doing big busts, like 30, 40 people. They're busting at bars with fake IDs down there. But it's really built up. It seems like a different world down there. But I'm sure they still party a lot. Now, did an addiction run in your family?

at all? You know, I think that it does run in my family a little bit. My uncle had an issue with cocaine in the 80s. But, you know, my father was never a drinker. He was never a hard drug user, but he did use marijuana. My mother drank beer. But I would say that they were not, I don't consider either one of my parents' addicts in any way, shape, or form, they never had any consequences from their use. They never, you know, committed any crimes. I mean, I guess technically marijuana would have been illegal back then, but, you know, beyond that issue of, like, using marijuana and it's illegal, they weren't, my father wasn't out, like, driving drunk, driving, you know, on marijuana, hurting people, you know, conspiring with, to do crimes.

So I never really, what I saw was people drinking and smoking and that that was sort of normal, that that was okay to do. And there was never, you know, you weren't going to get in trouble for it. There wasn't consequences. But I don't, I didn't come from like an alcoholic father or an alcoholic mother that was like, You know, there was all kinds of chaos in the house. Like that, that really wasn't occurring. Were they lawyers?

No, but my uncle was a lawyer. Is that where you got the idea to become a lawyer from? I have a lot of lawyers in the family. So my cousin is a lawyer. Our other uncle who's passed on, he was a lawyer. My father's uncle was the district attorney in Allentown of Lehigh County for many, many years. I have another, his niece, I have, I have other family that's all lawyers. So I probably have, there's probably six other lawyers currently practicing that are related to me right now. So it does

run in the family. So I think that's what gave me the idea to, that I could, I could do it, you know. What was it about it? Do you think that you gravitated towards? especially criminal defense. Well, it was really exciting to me as opposed to some other areas of the law. When I was in law school, like I said, I never wanted to do criminal law. I didn't think about it. It was actually, I think it was one of my worst classes. Like I got like a C or a D in that class in criminal law.

Criminal procedure, criminal law, I just couldn't understand it. All your old clients are about to hate you. I mean, but contract law, property law, that kind of stuff, like A's top, top grades. Like I was, I think it was like number three in contracts. And it was, it just came natural to me, that kind of stuff. But criminal law is like, yeah, I don't like this. And when I did an internship, my second year, I went for this, like, the products liability firm. And we sat there in this room, like, like, copying copies of paper and like,

sorting through different paperwork and like organizing one stack with another stack it was just the most boring thing I've ever imagined and I'm like I don't want to even do this this is not for me and so I decided well I need to have something that's when I decided to go to the county attorney's office and I just I don't know I just saw what these guys were doing there and it seemed interesting to me and I watch you know know, as an intern, you kind of go around and you watch, you observe different cases. And there was just some really interesting cases. And I liked the idea that I was going to get in the courtroom right away. Because when you work for the county attorney or the public defender's office, they throw you

right in, man. Like you're, you're doing preliminary hearings. You're doing trials. You know, you start with the small ones, but they build you up pretty quick. And so I liked that. that, the idea of getting in the courtroom, that seemed to be the attraction for me. I have a giant ego. I'm a little bit, you know, arrogant in a way. I used to be. And so that attracted me because it was a place where I could be the center of attention and criminal law. Like you can't really do that in other areas of the law, at least not right away. If you go to a big firm. They're going to, you know, you have to make partner before you see the inside of a courtroom or something. And I don't know. Those are the stories. Yeah, maybe like big corporate law

or something. You get that taste of action, but not like criminal defense. Yeah. But I mean, what's more exciting? I mean, you have so there's like there's different tiers of this stuff. So there's, you know, preponderance of the evidence, clear and convincing evidence and beyond a reasonable doubt. Well, you know, preponderance of the evidence is like these guys going in on millions of dollars contract cases you know um people are being sued for a lot of money and things are you know money is on the line and and you have this this 51 percent burden that you have to meet and then you have like family cases where you know your children are going to get taken from you uh and that's you know clear and convincing evidence you you have to show this this standard for your

kids to get taken from you but beyond a reasonable doubt like that's the there's criminal law, that's the only one that has that burden. And in order to, like, go in and have someone's freedom on the line is, like, the ultimate challenge. It is the echelon of, in my opinion, trial practice. So you can do trials and you can do personal injury trials where, you know, there are definitely, those are important cases and there's important issues and people may be guys. They have life-altering injuries that, you know, you have to go in. You have to litigate. And there's, you know, things with your kids.

And that's important. All those cases are important. But I think that if you look at who the best trial attorneys are in the United States, those guys are doing criminal trials. Those are the upper echelon of trial attorneys. And, you know, when you think of who's the best. best, those are the guys I think of. And maybe I'm wrong and maybe I'm going to get, you know, some commentary from some non-criminal attorneys out there. But, you know, you can still be a very

good trial attorney. And maybe you're a good trial attorney in civil and you can hand some criminal attorney his ass. But they're not the ones getting the press. I mean, look at the little Dirk trial. That's a great example. Brian Steele and the other lawyer are all, are all the news. Now it's not like suits where you have a Harvey Specter getting put in the news for sealing a big deal in a corporate case. It's all about the criminal trials, especially with the celebrities, except for maybe Johnny Depp's trial because that was civil. Yeah, those lawyers. Yeah. I mean, you can get some coverage on the civil stuff, but, you know, there's, when you have the criminal stuff, I don't know if you remember Jody Arias. Yeah, yeah. But I know the attorneys

that handled that case, and I'm good friends with Mr. Nirmie, he, I mean, those trials, they are involved. I mean, someone's life's on the line. When you're doing a capital trial, death is on the line or a murder trial, you just really have to have, you have to be really good and be really experienced. And, you know, I have the ultimate respect for anybody that has done a murder trial, done a capital case. I have many friends that do capital cases and they know who they are. And they're great attorneys and I respect them.

But I think that they would agree that, you know, they are. their trial attorneys for sure. And I think that makes it even harder to be a public defender now. I mean, look at the public defenders assigned to people that have killed high profile individuals. That's a tough job right now because you have the media coming at you and you're just doing your job. You've got to sign that case. Oh, yeah. I mean, as a public defender, you have no choice. And that is tough. So, you know, I feel for them, I, the public defender's office in Maricopa County is one of the best public defense offices I've ever seen. They have some great people. There's a guy there that was formerly the head. His name's Gary Kula, great guy. There's another guy that used to be there,

Jeremy Musman, Jim Haas. The list goes on. There are some really good people that have come through that office that I've experienced good things with. But they have a tough, tough job public defenders because they have limited funds, limited resources, they're overworked, underpaid. And there's public defenders that I know that have been there for 20 plus years. And there's a guy named Jamie Jackson, great guy. He actually saved some people in Vegas. There was that mass shooting. Yeah.

He, like, jumped on a girl and saved her and put her over his shoulder and carried her out. And he's a public defender. Fenery does murder cases and he's good. He's very good. And I just had the utmost respect because what they do, they are, that's someone that truly believes in due process and getting a fair trial and they believe in what they do. And they are, those are the kind of lawyers that I wish that the public would understand. They're not public pretenders. necessarily. That's a bad term for them because they're actually the ones that fight the hardest for you. The guys that get paid a lot of money, some of them are just in it for the money. They don't

really care. Once they make their money, they don't care. But I think it goes both ways. There's public defenders that probably don't care and there's private attorneys that probably don't care. And then there's the ones that doesn't matter money, no money, you know, they care. And I've seen I've seen them all, but it's really, the profession itself, it's really, it gets a bad rap sometimes and the media is on them a lot. And there's this recent, what's that recent, the recent case with the, um, Lindsay, is that her name? Lindsay Clancy. Lindsay Clancy, yeah. I mean, gosh, the attorney in that case, I can't imagine when he's going through. I haven't seen a whole lot of coverage, but I've kind of heard a few things.

And, you know, that can't be an easy job to be an attorney on that case, any high-profile case. That's like the Brian Koberger attorney or the Luigi Mangione. I think she might have been a paid attorney, though, because they had the funding from the public. Or even the Charlie Kirk trial, if he doesn't. take a plea deal, that's going to be a pretty high profile trial. Yeah, yeah. I mean, those things are, that stress in itself, just dealing with that. And then you have to actually, you know, do the trial. And you have to deal with all the noise on the outside, too. Football is finally back and prize picks is bringing out their best offer yet. New users who

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all in the same app. So if you see me at the Jets game looking at my phone, just know I'm locked in on prize. picks. Download the app today and use code Ian Bick to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. Again, download the app today and use code Ian Bick to get $150 instantly in lineups if you win your first $5 lineup. Prize picks, run your game. Now, how come your DUI wasn't an eye-op or a wake-up call for you? You think that could be someone's rock bottom moment that at a, you know, a DUI, maybe I have to go to rehab or something. How come it wasn't like that for you?

Well, because my ego was so big, I didn't think that I had an issue. I only realized recently that I was actually an alcoholic and an addict. It started off that I was never an alcoholic. And that was not a wake-up call because I didn't have a problem. The problem was that I decided to drive when I was drunk and I just shouldn't have done that. I didn't actually have a problem with alcohol. I didn't recognize it yet. And again, because it's a progression. So I think early on, you know, getting a DUI in itself is not necessarily like a wake-up call. It's like, yeah, maybe some bells should go off, okay, I probably shouldn't do that again. And for most people, they would never repeat that behavior again. And I didn't for a while. For a while,

while, you know, um, must have been, you know, I don't, I don't, let me see. Was it eight years, eight, nine years after that DUI or something like seven, eight years after that. I, you know, I didn't commit any crime for, for those years, uh, until I got in trouble for the case that put me in prison. Um, but I still even, you'd think me going to prison would be the wake up call too, like, okay, you have an issue. And I did think, Yes, okay, I think I have that drugs, this is a, you know, I did this. I was really, I was on drugs. I have a substance abuse issue. I probably should put down the crack cocaine in the meth pipe, you know, whatever it is. And when I got to prison, that's what I didn't think that I had an issue then. Even though I knew that that, I felt that that was the cause of my bad decision. You know, I don't just. just wake up one morning and decide I'm going to throw away my whole legal career and all this stuff because, you know, I want to. And, you know, it's, I'm on drugs over so many months that I'm making

bad decisions. And once I'm able to get off the drugs, thank God that the judge took me into custody and the police arrested me. Because when I got to prison and I was able to get sober for a while and have some clarity, I thought, okay, that's, don't do that again. And when I was in prison, I, you know, I was there for six years. So I didn't use drugs while I was in there. And I thought to myself, that's where my disease kind of got in my head, because then my disease is like, yeah, see, you're okay. You didn't use drugs. Drugs are everywhere in here. There's heroin and methamphetamine coming in here every single weekend. And you're not using it. You're not an addict. You're going to be okay. You can get out and you don't need drug counseling. You don't need treatment. So my brain had

convinced itself that I'm not an addict because that's what the disease does. It's centers in your mind. So when I got out on, I was out on probation and I was so like full of, I don't know what the word is, but like part of probation is you have to comply with what they tell you to do. And they were telling me, well, you have to go to this substance abuse program and you have to go to this counseling. And I was like, why? Like, I don't have a drug problem. Even though I just got out of prison for a six-year sentence behind me using drugs and bringing drugs into the jail, I didn't have a drug problem.

So that's how insane that disease is in your brain because I was like, I don't really need this. So when they placed me into those programs initially, I was full of resentment. Like, why am I even here? I don't need this. I'm a normal person. I'm not a drug addict. And so I didn't really take any of the programs seriously that I was forced to do. I completed them.

I complied. But the whole time, you know, I was still drinking. And I had a medical marijuana card. So I was using marijuana as well. and because I definitely wasn't an alcoholic. I was just a drug addict and I didn't recognize that till later either. But, you know, that was like a point where it should have been a wake-up call, but it wasn't. So now I'm on probation and I'm literally drinking alcohol, smoking weed on probation.

And instead of being like, well, maybe I shouldn't do this, this isn't right. I know I shouldn't be doing it. I'm not complying with probation. I just know that I can have them. I can, well, I am compliant. I have a medical marijuana card. They know it. So I can technically smoke marijuana.

But I know I probably shouldn't be drinking alcohol because that's part of the terms. Don't drink alcohol. But I know they're not testing me for it. So in my mind, I think, well, if they're not testing me, then why not drink? I mean, I'm not an alcoholic. so instead of me realizing, hey, these are the rules, man. Like, you just threw away your life because you didn't comply with the law. Now here you are.

You're still not complying with the law. Why? Because I'm Jason Keller and I get to do that and I can because I can get away with it. That was the same exact type of thinking that got me in trouble. So those five plus years in prison taught me nothing. I didn't learn that that was the thinking that got me there. I still didn't understand it. I still didn't comprehend it.

And it's sad looking back because it should have. But it didn't. And there I was still with the same mentality. Maybe I wasn't now, you know, I wasn't bringing drugs into, you know, people in the jail. But I'm still thinking the same way. I'm getting away with it. And I'm thinking, well, I'm getting. getting away with it. So, you know, it's okay until it wasn't. And, you know, eventually, you know,

alcohol use led to a relapse on drugs. And eventually my probation officer said, look, you've got to have a plan. I'm going to put you back and I'm going to revoke your probation. You're going to go back to jail or, you know, you're going to go to treatment. And so. I was like, okay, I'll go to treatment. Still not thinking I'm a drug addict. I'm just like, now I just stopped being able to get away with it. So I'll go to treatment, not because I really want to get sober, but because I don't want to go to jail.

And I went to Crossroads. And at Crossroads, I finally, even though it wasn't the moment where, again, I should have got it, I did get introduced. to some good recovery stuff. There are 12 steps, alcoholics anonymous, different things that I knew about, but in treatment, you know, they really, you know, it was a different, it was really intense, you know, inpatient. I'd never been to a rehab before, never.

You know, my whole life and I sort of had this progressive disease that kept getting worse and worse and worse. it led me to prison and, you know, I just couldn't understand that I had this. And I finally at Crossroads was kind of like, okay, well, this is what maybe I can get, maybe I can do this. I might not necessarily, I still couldn't really imagine not ever drinking again. But yeah, maybe I can this will, you know, maybe I'm a drug addict. I can get rid of the drugs. But, you know, still in the back of my mind was like, I'm going to get clean.

And I'll stop doing this so I can get off. probation because then I'll start drinking again, you know, because I could never imagine that I was an alcoholic. Also, I'm just a drug addict, you know. So when I got out of crossroads and I graduated that, I guess I don't know if graduating is really the right word because you don't ever really graduate from recovery, but when I got out of crossroads, I was able to stay clean for the remaining term of my probation. And I got off probation early. I got off probation in four years then. I was testing clean and was doing really well. And just like an addict, as soon as I got off probation, boom, I was like, let's celebrate. Let's go get some drinks. And I started to drink. And again, I was drinking because I was

not an alcoholic in my mind. I was like just a drug addict. So I went many years, not many, but I went a few more years of just being this like drinker, a heavy drinker. And I drank more than I had ever drank in my life because I think I was just kind of substituting one addiction for the other. So I was drinking a lot. And I started to, I thought, well, I've been clean now for a while. maybe I should try to get my convictions set aside.

Maybe I should start working on maybe getting my license reinstated, not realizing I still really haven't addressed the underlying issues of my alcoholism, my addiction, because I thought, I'm just a drug addict, I'm not an alcoholic. And I ended up getting another DUI in 2021. and you'd think that was the moment. Like, okay, is this dude going to get it? Like, is he going to figure this out? Like, he's got a problem.

Like, you can't drink or use drugs, man. Like, you keep, like, you keep having consequences to this. And you could have hurt yourself or someone else. But thank God, I did get that DUI when I did. And it did make me realize, that maybe alcohol was an issue, maybe. And it took another year, year and a half. It was actually about a year.

From the date, I got like the conviction and did all the sentence for the DUI. It was about a year from then. I figured out alcohol was not for me. I could not drink. And it was sort of just had a moment on a family vacation where I was like, I don't, you know, there's a guilt and shame in this, an incomprehensible demoralization is what they call it. And I felt that.

And I had like this moment of clarity where I felt completely incomprehensible and demoralized. And I couldn't understand why I kept repeating this behavior. And after everything I had done in my life, you know, all of these things, like the life that I had planned out, it was not where I was at. And I had, you know, I was such a good student and had achieved so much in my legal career just in a short time. And then seemingly threw it all away because I was addicted to drugs and was unable to establish boundaries and all of these other. There's many underlying reasons that, you know, make this perfect storm of why I did what I did. But all of those things and then and then not learning from it and not understanding it. And then finally having that moment thinking, okay, I don't want to do this anymore.

I don't want to keep repeating. I'm not going to, like I can't, I'm never going to get out of this cycle. I'm never going to have the life that I want. If I keep doing the same things. it's never going to change. And that's when I had to sit down with my wife, my current wife. And I don't know why I said that, but my wife. And we just had a heart to heart.

And she said, you know, she's a very supportive, inspirational woman. And she just said, what do you want? and I told her what I wanted and ever since that I did whatever it took to get sober and I have to do it on a daily basis. It's like a treatment. I finally was able to, you know, not right away, even having made that decision, okay, I was willing to get the help and I was willing to look at myself and say, okay, maybe I have a problem. Maybe it's alcohol, maybe it's drugs, maybe it's everything. Let me look at it.

And when I became willing, it kind of opened that door for me. And I started to buy into recovery and buy into that I needed all of these different things, 12 steps. And I could get help from other people. I didn't have to do it alone. And eventually, things started to get better. And it's a simple discipline that I go through each and every day that keeps me sober. And it was not easy in the beginning. And now it's just sort of like a reflex action that I go through every day no matter where I'm at.

and it's sort of like being at the gym. When you work out at the beginning, you don't really see the results. And then one day it's six months down the road and you look in the mirror and you're like, oh, okay. And you make this progression. And I have really just been able to turn my life around. I'm not reinstated, but I've tried a couple times. They've denied me. Well, one time they, I withdrew my application.

I didn't think I was ready and then I reapplied and then they denied me. But if I'm looking at it objectively, I agree with them. I agree with the panel that said I wasn't, they said I wasn't ready. The application was premature. And at first I was like, kind of. Like, what do you mean? I'm not ready. But when I read the lengthy, detailed denial, I agree. I agree 100%. I think I will be ready at some point. But, you know, I created a lot of destruction for a lot of years. And so having a few years of sobriety under my belt doesn't mean that I can be, be, well, I know that I can be trusted. I know that I'm worthy, that I'm redeemed. But I can completely understand why someone that doesn't know me intimately or just sees me on a piece of paper

why they would think that, you know, I have more work to do. And I'm happy to do it because, you know, when I look at it from their point of view, I can see that it makes sense. Yeah, I get it. And I want to do those things. But at the end of the day, you know, whether I reapply or not, I don't know. I just think we'll take it one day at a time and we'll see what happens. My life is good today, regardless of any license to practice law. I still work in the legal field. I work as a paralegal. I work as a consultant with other lawyers. I'm obviously, you know, very experienced in different areas. And, you know, it's a wonderful way to live in sobriety.

And I can, I'm able to finally look at my life in the rearview mirror and understand a lot. more about my life and what happened, why it happened, I can have a true acceptance of it and accepting responsibility and having a real remorse, you know, because there's a certain maturity that I think I've reached emotionally that I didn't have before, which enables me to really understand and be aware of who I was and how I affected other people. because previously it was really just about me and oh me and how did it affect me and all of that stuff and you know so it's it's a work in progress man but so now paint the picture for us um you were off on your own you split from your cousin uh at that point how much drugs are you

actually using um you know probably uh A lot. It would depend on the day. Take us through a typical day. Are you doing it during work hours? If you're at the courtroom. No, I mean, I have had a couple experiences where I have done drugs before going to court. But I didn't do drugs prior to like doing a trial or doing an evidentiary hearing. But I was an active addiction. I would do drugs mainly on the weekends.

It would drag into the weeks sometime, but I would, if I was really high, I couldn't make it to court. So what I would do is I would send the, like I had another attorney that worked for me. I would send him or I would send what they call coverage. I would hire somebody just to go appear for one appearance, you know, and I would pay them like an hourly rate to go up here. But so the drugs that like, you know, if I was, you know, sometimes I would do drugs all day long. So, I mean, if you want a quantity, it's hard to quantify. If I try to remember it, I spent a lot of money on drugs. How much you think you spent?

I mean, depending. I mean, you know, crystal meth is a lot cheaper than crack cocaine. But so for crack, I might have spent $1,000 to $1,500 a day. but that was not just so like I had probably you know there's always the people that like come in and want to be a part of that and there's you know so I had like a small circle of other drug addicts that I trusted to not reveal my secret to the public and so I would say there was probably about three or four people that shared in that use so I mean crack cocaine, you know, it's a lot. You know, you can spend $120. It could be gone in an hour. So I would spend money till the money ran out, really.

I think we can all agree that during the summer, our diets definitely take a hit, especially when we're busy going on vacations and doing a lot of traveling. Now that summer's coming to an end, it's time to get serious. That's why I'm all in on Factor. I've been surprised. so dialed in on Factor Meals lately. I mean, literally right now in the office, I have myself a bacon, mushroom, and Swiss scramble. Factor's breakfast items are delicious, and I wash it all down with one of their protein shakes, with a little bit of caffeine in it to keep me hype and ready

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for one year while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code locked in 50 off at factormeals.com. Locked in 50 off at factor meals.com. See website for more details. Do you think you hurt anyone's case at all? That's a good question. You know, know, I think I hurt a lot of clients. I don't know if I necessarily hurt their case exactly, but I think that because they hired me and if I sent someone else and they didn't expect someone else or if I, due to my arrest, I was no longer able to represent them, you know, they had a trust me. And so, yes, I absolutely hurt a client because I broke their trust. Was I able to competently and effectively represent someone but be a drug addict? I believe that there's a level of competency

that was met, but I don't, was I my best self? Absolutely not. I can't say that I was my best self as a drug addict, but I won cases as a drug addict. I still showed up as a drug addict, but if I was high and I was unable to do that, then I wouldn't show up and I would send someone else. But I absolutely hurt clients, yes. And I, you know, I think that's part of the issue is that, you know, I've tried to make amends with a lot of the clients. And I've, I've, I've tried to make amends with a lot of the clients. and I've paid back money to several of the clients that had orders of restitution against me. I've repaid that money to them and I've done it willingly. It's part of, you know, cleaning my side of the street.

That's the only way I stay sober is to do that. And, you know, I've, when I think about the clients, you know, that's, you trust your lawyer. A lot of my clients, you know, they're criminal clients and they, they, I got them through being in that lifestyle, the drug lifestyle. It's not an excuse. It's just, it's a fact. When I first got arrested and I was taken into county jail, I actually saw a client of

mine and he was pretty pissed off. and you know I'm being carded through there with my cuffs and he's going he's going one way he's like what are you doing here and I'm like I got arrested and he's like but what am I going to do I'm like I don't know man I'm here I can't do anything and I was unable to see it then you know exactly I was like, you know, thinking of myself, not what I had done to clients. And I actually, when I got out of prison, I saw that client at the probation office. He was just getting out as well. And, man, he was staring at me.

And he stared me down. And I thought he was going to hurt me. But he came up and he sat next to me at the probation office. And he said, you know, they were my lawyer. And I said, yeah, and he goes, he's like, what happened? You know, you got off my case. And I'm like, I got arrested, man. Like, I didn't like intentionally get off your case.

Like, I was forced off your case. I would have still represented you. But I apologized. And he was like, that's all I ever wanted, man, was an apology. And that felt good to kind of clear that with him. because I imagine there's a lot of people that feel that way, especially the ones that I owed money to. I, you know, I had to contact them each and every one. One of them was very angry, you know, and I have a, say, I have a sponsor. I have a, you know, in the program and you have a sponsor.

And he told me, you know, be prepared for the person that, you know, pushes back and is not like, oh, I'm so happy that you're doing good and you're recovering your life and all of that, there's going to be the person that's going to say, you know, bullshit. And that happened. One person, I was, you know, it's a lot of money. So I had to make payment. I'm not, you know, I don't have a lot of money. And I made payments, you know, to people.

And I was trying to make monthly payments over a certain period of time to each person. I have so many people to pay. And I had to make like a $20, $25. dollar payment every month to these people. And then one person was like, look, this is, I want to make this right. What I did was wrong. I left you without an attorney. And I, I, um, I was wrong when I did that. I was wrong for what I did. I broke your trust. And I went through the whole, um, you know, breakdown of my actions and how I was wrong and how I wanted to make it right. And I owe this money. And, uh, But here's, I can only make a $25 payment.

And she was like, oh, fuck you. No, I don't, I want the whole amount now. And I think it was like, I might have been like $4,000 or $5,000. And I was like, well, I can't do that. I mean, can't you just take the $25 a month? And I mean, I'm going to make the payment every month. She's like, oh, no, no, no, fuck you. And all these F bombs and profanity.

and I can't believe you did this to me and why can't you pay me and what is all this and you know I just I don't even want to talk about this I'll have to think about this and she's slammed the phone down and so I prayed I prayed about it and um you know the next day she called and she was like look um I was really upset you know you left me without an attorney I ended up, you know, having to do some years and I blame you for it. And I said, I completely understand and I wish I could take it back. I wish I could, you know, turn back the clock and change it, but I can't, you know, there's no hope for better yesterday. So, but here's what I can do now. And so she said, okay, send me what she can. And I, send me what she can. And I, and I,

ended up being able to pay her then. Grace of God, I was able to, I borrowed some other money and I got her paid. And I got everybody paid. I had to borrow. But I'd rather pay them and then pay the bank back than that way they could get their money. They probably should have been paid years prior to that. Tell us a story of why you got arrested. Well, I got arrested because I took drugs into the jail.

And it happened kind of in a, I don't want to say unsuspecting way, but it sort of, you know, was unsuspecting. I represented a client that he was in there for murder and an armed robbery. and let's see his girlfriend came to me and said hey can you bring in this paperwork and um i was like i mean i don't know like why my thinking was like why would i take paperwork like for what but i looked at it and it was like from a textbook it was like a constitutional law paperwork and so i just thought okay well maybe he's studying up on the law. And, you know, in my mind, that's that addict brain just telling me, you know,

justifying it, rationalizing it. At the end of the day, I should have known better. And I just didn't really, I don't know. I didn't care. I just rationalize it in my head like, okay, it's constitutional law papers. sure. I looked at it. I kind of fan through it. Didn't see anything really wrong with it other than it was a textbook. But I shouldn't have taken it into him because it came from her. Like if he wants to study up on his case, the right action is to go see him and say, hey, man, what do you want

this paperwork for and to kind of figure it out rather than just deciding to just take it in? Like, and me deciding, okay, well, I don't see anything wrong with it. So I'm just going to make this decision and go against the rules. And I rationalized it in many different ways. Like, well, it's constitutional law. He's probably wants to, you know, study on it, even though he's probably not the type of inmate that would actually study up on his case. There's guys you can tell.

Like, this guy's assisting in his own defense. This guy doesn't care. He's the one that doesn't care. And I reflect on that. and I understand it. So I think, well, I'll just take it. And I have to give it to the guard too. Like, it's not like I can't just hand him something.

Like there's a trap. You know, the guard has to come open the trap to have me put the paperwork through. So when the guard would open the trap, I would have to hand him the paperwork. So he would get the paperwork and he would look at it. and then he would give it to the to the client to the prisoner to the inmate whatever the term is you want to use So that was another rationale in my head well I'm giving it to the System and they're looking at it and they're giving it to him so if there's something wrong with it

They'll discover it. It's not my problem right like if it's if there's something in there It came from the girlfriend. It's not even coming from me. It's from her. I have nothing to do with this. So it's plausible to not ability and so again another rationalization in my head. And probably that first packet, there is real plausible deniability. Like, okay, you know, it is the wrong action to take to do that. But even with the rationalization, it's still wrong. But I really don't, I have no, like, I don't see anything. And I'm not, like, there's no by the statute, by criminal law, like there's no mens rea.

There's no culpability. There's no criminal mind there. There's no intent because I have no knowledge of anything wrong. I'm committing a wrong. I'm violating prison or jail policy, but I'm not like committing a felony because I don't have knowledge of a crime. But when she keeps coming back like on a monthly basis and she's bringing me the same paperwork, well, what's with this? Well, it got taken in a shakedown. Why?

Like, what do you mean it got taken in a shakedown? Well, okay. now I have to bring a new set of paperwork in. So now, you know, it's not like I'm an intelligent person. So there's more to it. So did I think something was wrong with it? Yes. Did I know what it was?

No. But I think that just the thought of there's something wrong with it places me in a position where I'm culpable. So I continued to do it. And, you know, that's part of why I got arrested was those pages that I took in. Turns out there was heroin in there flattened out, like black tar heroin flattened so thin between two pages that it's not even discernible. Like you can't like you could literally flip through the pages and not know it's there. Like I carried this thing around with me in a brief case once not know.

I did not know it was heroin until I did, which was after I'd done it several times. And then I had I had the last packet with me when I found out that it was heroin. And I'm carrying it around. Like in my car, I was taking it to court, putting it through the scanner and everything. They didn't even see it. And I had this heroin with me. And I had the guys of the jail were like, hey, are you going to get down here, man? Like, when are you coming to visit your client?

I'm like, who are you? like it's someone that's not even my client who's dope sick trying to figure out when is the lawyer coming with the heroin and I'm like I don't know you like why are you calling me well you know so-and-so client aren't you supposed to come down here and visit him and I'm like yeah I'll get there when I get there man like who are you and so I started to get these calls like this and that's when I was like went to the girlfriend I'm like hey check that out like What is happening right now? I haven't got down there and I'm starting to get calls from everyone about this paperwork that you gave me.

You're going to have to tell me now. Now you like I didn't ask before because I didn't want to know wrong action by me. But now I'm like, okay, now all of a sudden the lawyer hats on and all of a sudden the, you know, I'm ready to like be a good citizen and do the right thing. Like tell me what it is. well I've been putting heroin in those pages oh okay well now I can't do this anymore now I can't do it so I didn't and uh it was taken in another way and uh that's you know it was already too late for me though because all of the you know when you have something like this happening in the jail and all of these people know you can imagine that a lot of people were were telling police uh hey this lawyer this

is what his name is, he's bringing this stuff in. And so they had been watching me for a while and, you know, running the surveillance. And, you know, that's part of it. Is it like a book? How is it? Or is it just like a couple pieces of paper? Like a magazine? It was about like about maybe an inch thick.

So now do you think the average person would be able to find it or no? No. You couldn't find it. And what is it so thin? Like I've never touched heroin before. Is it like thin in between the sheets? and it's like stuck together? How does that work?

Yeah. So black tar heroin is like I don't you can, I've seen it a lot. I mean, I didn't know anything about heroin when I was taking it in because I was a upper guy. You know, I did cocaine and meth. But heroin I never even tried. But and since being in prison, I've seen tons of, the heroin is everywhere in prison. And I finally saw what it looks like.

But it's so like, it's like you can like roll it out or something. Like it's like it comes on like it's flat. You know, you can just roll it flat on paper, you know, so that it's almost like it's indistinguishable and it's kind of sticky. So they just take another sheet, I guess, and just put it right on there. Is it like a wax paper that like a kind of like a magazine paper that you're bringing in? This was just regular paper. And you couldn't tell it all when you skim through it. No, well, it wasn't like I went through every single page.

It just kind of like, oh, just like, you know how you kind of like flip a. thing I'll just kind of go like that like you know shake it and that's what the guards would do too yeah the guards are just like they would go like this they kind of shake it and like and they would just hand it to him and it wouldn't come up on a scanner at all either it wouldn't show I mean if it did they didn't do anything about it I don't I mean I never knew that it did now who is this client is he like a gang member he was a gang member he's passed now but um or deceased I guess. But yeah, he was a gang member. And I know he was like at that time I think he was one of the,

what they call like a probate or there's a term for it in the in the Mexican mafia, but it's like a probate. Someone that was like on their radar to become a validated person. And so I think once after this case happened and he went to prison. I do believe he eventually did become a validated member. At least that's my understanding. Now, were you getting ready to go to trial with him or how far along in his case were you defending him? He was still, so it was still early on.

We were going to go to trial though. It was a trial case. It was a murder case. Well, it was an armed robbery. That case, they had a pretty solid case. But the murder was a little thin. I thought he had a decent case on the murder. He had a couple people that were involved also that were co-defendants.

They had been the last people seen with this person that was murdered. But one of those people actually had turned against him and was going to testify. And he actually ended up being a witness against me as well because he was one of the people that knew that I was bringing in heroin him and so he turned on me as well. I think he, they ended up giving him a deal. He got out. He was facing like a murder sentence, but he got out. And I think, and this is just a rumor. I don't know for sure, but I believe he got out and committed another crime and then ended up going back in and getting another deal or something. But I don't think he, I think he did less time than I did. So that would be less than six years. I could be wrong. But,

Yeah, he was in there. He was going to do a murder. He had a murder charge. He ended up pleading guilty to the murder and got sentenced to natural life. So now do you think your own addiction threw you off your game in this? The fact that you even said yes to bringing in and breaking protocol and not being more diligent about this? Of course. It was definitely my addiction played a role because I was not making the right decisions.

I only made decisions that I, you know, would, I didn't want to be any, anything that was uncomfortable or that if it was, you know, if I was scared or this or that, I would just do whatever was the easiest. And so it just, if I could rationalize it in my head, then I did it. I mean, I don't know how drugs didn't play a role. I mean, drugs really just affect your decision-making process, and they affected mine in terms of, you know, the ability to know right from wrong completely. Because, again, I'm so selfish and self-centered in my head, and I'm not making wise decisions because the drugs are affecting my brain. the neuroscience of it, and I'm not really able to deal with life on life's terms. So when I'm

faced with a moral dilemma, if I'm able to rationalize it in some way, it made it easier for me to make the wrong decision. You know, it's hard to identify exactly, you know, the why. I just know that there's so many different factors and drugs play a role in that decision to do that. And I want to say there's an element of fear there too. And, you know, wherever there's fear that can that can also cause poor decision making. Anytime I've ever made a decision based in fear, it's always been the wrong decision. Fear because you're afraid to say no to her. and who your client is? Well, yeah, fear that, you know, what he might do if I say no,

fear that, okay, now I've taken it in. What if I say no now? You know, I know there's something wrong with this paperwork. What if I stop taking it? What are they going to do? You know, even though I'm able to at some point say, no, I can't do this anymore. that doesn't mean I didn't like two things can exist at once like there is an element that is like an unknown like what is going to happen if I stop bringing this what is this person capable of

is he going to be angry is he going to try to report me to the state bar does he know I'm a drug addict is he going to say that to somebody what you know all of these million different thoughts are going through my head. And so it's just complete chaos. And I don't, I can't make, I can't make a rational right step in chaos. In sobriety, if I have the kind of thinking that I have right now in my life, I can absolutely say without question, if someone approaches me, if I had a license of Brax law and someone approached me and said, hey, can you bring this in? Absolutely not. Are you kidding me? No, I will not do that. But it's easy to look back and know that now. And, you know, yes, I should I have known that then. And I think that if I wasn't in the place in my life that I was at,

I would have made a better decision. I just didn't make the right decision. And, you know, it definitely is something that I have to live with for the rest of my life, you know. So now what happens when you say no to her? Is that it? And then... No, it's not it. Then they're like, well, we still have to figure out how to get it in.

So, you know, that they they figured out another way you know I don't know what he did going for but there was another attorney after my arrest another attorney with the same client um did the same thing and got caught he brought it in a legal pad um and he got caught with it in court trying to pass him the legal pad as a legal supply in court. And he got charged, same charges. He ended up getting a like a dismissal, not a diversion or deferred prosecution. They changed, they transferred him to a different county and he got his case dismissed.

But he ended up getting suspended, not disbarred, and he never did any prison time. But that was it for you once you told her no. That was it for me. That was it for me once I told her no. There was another part of the, I had other charges. There were some other members of that same organization that were asking me to bring in a cell phone. And they were on a different level of the jail, a much higher security level. And they were much more serious, at least at the time.

I mean, I think that every one of my co-defendants was a very serious person. those guys seemed to be just the environment having you know just as a citizen as an attorney I'd done many jail visits and I'm gone to different jails and seen different clients and different spots but this area of 4th Avenue jail is SMU is what it's the SMU area of 4th Avenue jail. It's like, it's very high security. They're in like sort of, they call them turtles. They're in SWAT gear. You're like, they're isolated. They're housed alone. They're in big, it's like Hannibal Lecter type stuff. And the way that you're escorted in there and the way that it's set up, it's intimidating. It's frightening. And I took my assistant with me once.

She never wanted to go back ever. She's like, don't take me on a visit like that again. And this is a state prison? This is a county jail. Okay. This is county jail. But a state county jail, not federal? It's not a federal. Yeah, no, it's state county.

And it's very scary there. And so the guys that I had met with there, they were in my, at that time, I perceived them, not taking way, they were serious guys, I'll just say. They had serious charges and I understood them to be very serious people in terms of what my understanding was from, you know, reading police reports and where they were housed is intimidating. And so they had asked, well, there was a guy in there that I was meeting with as he was a I represented a guy on a case who said, this is my co-defendant. If you talk to him, he will exonerate me.

He will say I had nothing to do with this. And I was like, okay, well, let me ask his lawyer if it's okay for me to go speak to him. And so I asked the lawyer and I said, hey, can I speak to your guy? My guy says, your guy's going to exonerate my guy. He said, sure. I said, do you want to be present? He said, no, you can go ahead and talk to him, which is crazy. but so I went and talked to him and when I went and talked to him it was just it was really

intimidating and he hadn't mentioned something to me about hey you know we're going to get I said I was representing the other guy downstairs that was I was bringing the paperwork in I said yeah you know because I was I was trying to you know it was ingratiate myself. I was trying to name drop to kind of establish a rapport with the guy so that he would talk to me about the case that I wanted to talk to him about. So I name drop. Yeah, you know, I represent so-and-so. He's down on this level. You know, he knows you. You guys in the same organization. You know, I've represented this other person too. And I use that to try to establish a rapport. not thinking that he would then use that to think, okay, well,

so I guess I can, you know, how about you bring a phone in to me? And I was like, at first I was like, is this guy really asking me to bring this phone in? I mean, he's more like telling me to bring the phone in. I wasn't really asking. He's like, you know, there's these little phones out there. And he was just showing me, you know, describing. how this little cell phone and, you know, they had these little phones and, you know,

could get a phone in here and I'm thinking, yeah, okay, sure. And I was acquiescing, but I really had no intention of, like, bringing the phone in. I was just kind of like, I don't know if acquiescing is the right way. I was placating him, placating. Like, yeah, sure, okay, yeah, I'll, okay, you're going to give me a phone and I'm going to bring it in. and I didn't really think anything of it. Like I was just kind of like,

this is kind of weird. This is crazy. And then someone showed up at my office, a person with a phone. And I was like, ooh, yeah, she gave me the phone. She gave me some money to put on his books, which I didn't put on his books.

I kept it. I pocketed it. And I sat on this, phone. I held on to the phone. And I thought, ooh, what am I going to do? And then he was calling like, hey, when are you going to come down? Bring the phone. I'm like, yeah, I don't know when I can get down there. And I kept pushing it off, pushing it off. And I thought, you know, the last thing I my brain thought at that time, like, I'm a drug addict. So I'm already really, really paranoid. Like, I'm paranoid just sitting at my house at night using drugs on a Friday night.

I'm like looking out the windows and, you know, how that's, there's a drug induced psychosis where everybody's out to get you. The cops are coming every single day. You're being watched. And in reality, I was actually being watched. So when I'm peeking out the windows and I'm thinking cops are out there, they're really out there. When I'm thinking that they're across the street watching my office, they really are.

But that, those things happen to a drug addict even if they're not real. So everybody thinks I'm paranoid and I'm convincing myself, well, yeah, I'm probably just paranoid. But the point of me saying that is like my state of mind is like I'm scared. I'm living in fear daily. Like not just from like I'm taking paperwork in there. I shouldn't be. But like I'm in fear. I'm going to get caught for my drug addiction.

I'm going to get caught going to court and being on drugs. I'm going to lose my license to practice. this law. I can't get help. I can't stop. So I'm, I already took this paperwork in. I can't, I can't stop using drugs. How am I going to stop bringing in paperwork? How am I going to, like, say no to the phone? Like, I don't know what to do. I'm in complete chaos. These guys are calling me. Now they want, these guys want me to bring paperwork in. These guys want me to bring a phone in. And they're both at no point did I bring the other guy a phone or the other one of drugs. Like they were actually two, even though they kind of, they know who each other.

are it's totally separate totally separate deals and i don't think the police ever understood that or believed that but it was totally separate and um the guys of the phone so that guy when i wouldn't i wouldn't bring the phone i was i didn't know what to do i i felt like i couldn't call the police and like i'm going to report myself and i'm on drugs and i don't know what to do this guy's like This guy, he's there, it's just a very dangerous situation. And so I didn't bring it to him. Do they offer you money to bring in the phone or even when you caught them with the drugs? Do they offer you money at all?

No. So this sounds like terrible business on their part. They should have at least, you know. They were offering no money. That's crazy. But my drug addict brain was like, well, you know, you. You know, like I mentioned in the first part of this interview is like, I wanted to be that guy that all the criminals would come to. So I thought, okay, well, like, look, I'm getting these dangerous people are actually interested.

Like, they actually thought like, you know, he was, he had some other cases and he's like, well, maybe you could get on my other case, you know. And my brain is like, oh, he must really want me on his case. No, he just wants to like see what he can get from me. but when I wouldn't bring him in the phone then some other guys started calling me his neighbors he's got two other neighbors to his when I don't know if it's north, south, east or west or whatever it is

but it's to his side he's got two other people on his other side that's not connected to him by the like they only go to two people two people two people so these other two are over here they start calling me and they're like well we need you we need to talk to you

because we want to get rid of our attorney we want you and I thought oh okay well maybe that's a great idea and so I sent my brother-in-law down to talk to them to get you know talk to them about their case if they had some paperwork they had their police report get that let me review it let me see if they have a case and I did that I reviewed it and I thought yeah maybe I can't help these guys and then I went down there to talk to them and they said look you're not dealing with this guy over here anymore. He's down here.

We're up here. And we're the guys now. You're going to deal with us. We need that phone. And I'm like, oh, yeah. Well, yeah. But what about representation? Can you pay me and I can come on your case?

Look, I'm going to got this murder case down here and we're going to win. We're going to beat this case. So maybe I can represent you on this case. I looked at it and I think it's a good case that we could maybe win. And they're like, yeah, well, we'll figure it out. We'll get you some money. We got to get money from the top to get you paid and all this. And I was like, okay, well, let's do that.

And I thought, okay, well, we're going to do that, not the phone. But then they would keep, kept calling. And so I just thought, man, what can I do here? You know, I want to be that guy. I want to be the lawyer that is, you know, beating cases and getting, you know, dangerous high-profile criminals. I want to be this, the Johnny Cochran of Maricopa County and, you know, or the Garigos or whoever the, you know, the Jerry Spence is the Clarence Darrow.

I want to be the guy that is the guy, you know, but not knowing, look, man, I'm a drug addict that needs help right now. I can't be the guy. If I ever wanted to be the guy, the first thing I have to do is get off this drug. But I didn't, I couldn't see that. All I could see was, you know, well, if I wasn't completely scared and frightened of what would happen, if I don't do this, if I wasn't completely scared of, am I going to get caught for my drug addiction? Am I going to lose my license to practice? Then I was, my head is inflated. I, yeah, maybe I can do this. Maybe we can, I can manage this situation. My ego is trying to navigate me through this.

And so I thought, okay, well, look, if I just get them the phone, then this, we can move from this. I can, I can move past this and they can leave me alone. And I can just move on and I can represent them and do it legitimately. And that's, I don't know what kind of thinking that is. If it's magical thinking or like, you know, what I was thinking. but I decided that I, you know, I ended up getting the phone in there. I can't remember exactly how I did it, but I went in there in a visit and I put it in the trash can.

I think it was I put in some garbage, put in the trash can and they, when they get out for their call, there's like a phone there, you know, this is before tablets and all that stuff. So they, they would get released to come out into the, there. It's like a day room, but it's like the day room is like two feet. eat by like, I don't know. It's like no, it's not even longer than this room, but it's a small area just for a phone. And they come out to use the phone and then he can get the trash. And so I think at some point they did get the phone.

And when I got them the phone, I thought, okay, that's it. It's done. Like, I can move on from this. And they, and then I get a call like, I don't know. Maybe it was like a week later or a few days later. I'm like, hey man, we need the charger. Like, the phone is dead. We can't use the phone.

We can't, like, this is no good to us without the charger. And I'm like, oh, man, just when you think you're out, they pull you back in. So they said also, you've got to modify the charger because we don't have a plug. We have to, you have to take the plug off the edge and just leave the open wires. We're going to put it on some batteries. and we're going to use the batteries to do the charge. Like, man, these guys are creative. But I did that and I modified the charger

and I did it the same way that I did before. I went in and I put it in the thing. But only this time the police, they were ready. So I did make it out of jail that day. But they had, as soon as I left, they went back in and they searched the, they initially searched the trash can, they found nothing. They didn't know what to look for. They saw me drop something, like the one detective who I have really reconciled with,

I've talked to since, you know, now 20 years later, I've talked to him on many occasions. He said, no, go back, bring me the trash can. There's got to be something in there. So they brought him the trash can. He's good. and he went through it, man, and he found the charger, and he said, here it is. And that was it. So I think like five, six weeks later, they came and arrested me.

And they never knew I got the phone in. But they did end up knowing because I told them. I'm like, yeah, you guys didn't get the phone? Like, he's like, what? And he went back and got the phone. So what did they end of the phone? No, actually, I don't even think they actually recovered the phone. But they charged me with, um,

promoting prison contraband, conspiracy to promote prison contraband, participation in a criminal syndicate, a few other charges. I don't remember exactly, but maybe it was, it's all centered around, it's all like maybe multiple counts of conspiracy and multiple counts of promoting, and then the participation in the criminal syndicate and assisting a criminal syndicate. I believe there was seven total charges. Which is the Mexican Mafia? Is the syndicate?

Yeah, new Mexican mafia, technically. And where did they arrest you at? Your office, your home? They arrested me on my way to court around the corner from my house. Very ironic. Yeah. Like, I had stopped to get, I used to be a smoker, and I had stopped to get a pack of cigarettes. And then I was looking in my rear, I was just lit a cigarette.

I was looking in my rear view mirror, and I saw a little Suzuki or something. something behind me and it was like flashing red and light and it's and it's grill and I was like what is this and all of a sudden like 20 cars came and just blocked me in and you know they were like get out of the car you're under arrest for participation in the new mexican mafia and I'm like whoa uh-oh this is not good and I'm like I have a gun I have a gun because I used to carry a gun and I'm like I have a gun and I put my hands on and they just, they cuffed me, they took my car and, um, took me to jail, man. Did you get bailed out that day?

No, it took eight days. They set a half million dollar bond. So, and I was really arrogant and, um, I thought, man, I'm, they're going to release me. O.R. I was in there and I'm like, okay, I'm going to get released OR. This is no problem. Like, I have significant. community ties. I have a law practice. I'm a lawyer, like, presumed innocent. Like, there's no way they're going to set a bond on me. And they set a half million dollar bond. And I thought, oh, like, this can't be happening. So then I got back to the cell and I started calling. I'm like,

dude, my bond's a half million. Like, we need to get like, get me a bonds guy together. And I, I had to get 50K and then I could get the 50K but I didn't have the collateral. So that was a challenge. So then I had to like find the right like I had to go through a bunch of different bond guys. It took eight days to get to the bond guy that would allow me to. I said, look, I can get the collateral. I have the 50K. I need the collateral.

I can't get the collateral until you get me out. So I had to have a bondsman that was willing to. go based on my word that like I'll come up with I'll get the houses or whatever I need to get to sign over to you but I can't do it from in jail so you got to get me out first so I had I forget the one that was able to do that but they're like okay we'll get you out and they got me out and I got the collateral now who'd you call your wife well at that time I wasn't married uh he said brother-in-law uh married to my sister uh okay yeah so um um Yeah, I called, well, I had my son's mother at the time.

So I called her. I called my parents. I, you know, and they ended up getting it together. Were your parents alive at this point? Yeah, yeah, they're still alive. They worked for me. How did they react to all this? They were really kind of, it was, they were devastated, you know, because my mother was like

my office manager. My father was like an accountant there for me, like kept my books. And so I employed them. Plus I employed my brother-in-law and another attorney and his daughter and another two other people. Like I had like seven people that were getting a paycheck from me that it just ended overnight. So the firm was doing really well at that point despite your drug addiction. Yeah. That was what was so, you know, I think that's what enabled me was. was that like I wasn't self-destructing so to speak like you would think I mean I was internally and emotionally and I wasn't making right decisions but somehow I kept getting clients and I kept being able to pay the bills and the money kept coming in I might be spending it as quickly as I'm making it

but I'm able to I was able to get it done and um that was part of like fueling it like you know, I think if I would have hit like some sort of bottom where I wouldn't have been able to make payroll or, you know, some tragic event other than my arrest, like short of an arrest. Like if something would have happened, that might have stopped me before any of this other stuff did. But it didn't. I mean, everything happened the way it was supposed to happen. I, you know, I was off the rails, so to speak. And so this put an end to it. It stopped it. It stopped what I was doing and I bonded out after eight days. My son was born while I was in custody for those eight days. But I was when I got out and I saw them and then I was out for about four months and could not stay clean. Which is again, you know, just another piece of evidence that shows the strength of my drug. addiction like look man all of this stuff and you're like a shell of a person you can't get clean I'm out on bond the conditions is not to use drugs to stay out and I can't even do that like

drugs are more important than my freedom drugs were more important than anything I mean I was willing to break the law over it so after four months the judge I went for like a status kind of conference and the pre-trial services is what it's called the report came back like I have all these dirties and the judge god bless her um rest in peace her name was uh judge maraz she's passed away and uh it was the first time i was faced with uh you know i thought i was pretty good at talking my way out of things i i had been um that was also part of what fueled my you know rathes of like I can do anything I want because generally I could I got away with things that I should not have gotten away with and it made me think that what I was doing was okay somehow in my warped

drug addict brain but when I walked in that morning and I was like judge I'm on a path of success here I know I have these dirties but look I'm in this program over here I'm I'm doing the program uh look I've attended uh three classes you know whatever I said, I don't remember exactly, but I tried to spin the fact of like, look, yes, I have these dirty UA's, but look, I'm doing good. Like, you can't take me in now. And she said, Mr. Keller, you are going to get sober in jail. I'm taking you into custody. Bealiff. And they came around, cuffed me and took me in. And I didn't get out for six years. But I wanted so badly to tell her thank you after I had gotten out and I was just too you know I don't know it's one of those

things that you look back and you wish you would have just made the decision to go talk to that judge like I had been in that courthouse many times after I was released I just wanted to tell her thank you from the bottom of my heart like you took me into jail it didn't I didn't ultimately get sober completely from that point but by taking me in it it did help it did stop what I was doing and I needed that. I needed that tough love. What she did was contrary to law and when I got in to custody I told my attorney she can't do that and so we filed a motion to reconsider and the judge said you're right I can't do that. I will change my ruling and I'm going to reinstate your bond. And so I was like great.

And the bondsman was like, yeah, I need another 50K. And I was like, I'm broke. I haven't worked in four months and I'm a drug addict. I don't have $50,000 to give you. Can't we just count the other 50 that, you know, no? So I was stuck. Now, were you worried that the Mexican mafia or the new Mexican mafia would come after you for, you know, or worried that, you know, you were potentially snitching.

So they would come after you for that? Yeah, of course. I was worried. Definitely worried. And, you know, that's a real fear. But I can say this as my co-defendant, one of them, he did go to trial and they called me to testify. And that fear, there's many reasons I'll get to, but when I ended up getting a second case, because I was then charged with hindering prosecution,

witness tampering, and assisting a criminal syndicate again, and my co-defendant was my father. And because my co-defendant went to trial, and I was not cooperative with the state. So they gave me three additional years on top of my sentence for not going in there and testifying against him. Wait, so your dad went to trial? No, my dad got charged with me as my co-conspirator,

because my dad told me on the prison phone, he said, you better not testify for the state. You don't say shit. Don't do anything for them. You can't, you can't do that. He was just, you know, saying things that were indicative of like, don't tell the truth. Don't do anything for them. I don't know if he said don't tell the truth. He just said he was encouraging me not.

to remember things and to not testify and not cooperate in any way, shape, or form that they didn't do anything for me. I didn't get a deal. I didn't, um, that, I got the sense like if I were to testify for the state, he would be disappointed in me. I would lose respect in his eyes. And that's tough, a situation to be in as a son. but I think when I look at it, you know, look at hindsight's 2020.

I can't change anything that I did or what he did. And, you know, should he have given me different advice? Hey, I don't know. He is his own man. And I know that what he was saying came from a place of a concerned father. It came from a place of how he felt. instead of thinking about it as the total, you know, the totality of like what's the right thing to do and what, what, you know, there was a lot of anger and resentment, uh, that he carried that I also carried. You know, I felt that I was treated poorly in my first case. I didn't, I wasn't yet ready to accept my role in it. I wasn't taking accountability completely. Even though I said I was, I was still blaming others for my actions and, you know, I thought that I should have gotten probation and maybe some jail.

And, you know, not a class two felony. I thought I should have got like a class four and or a class six. And I, you know, I was really resentful and angry that the prosecutor gave me a harsh sentence and was recommending, you know, 10 plus years for me because, you know, I just, I was really full of like myself. and like that I was not I shouldn't have been treated like that that was my mentality it was a wrong wrong type of thinking she's doing her job and um you know she's allowed to she's allowed to have her opinion you know she she if if I was her looking at me I would and the way in the things that I was doing and saying like I wouldn't want to help me either um but because I felt like that I felt like I was entitled to get something for my testimony.

So if you're not going to give me a deal, why am I testifying? Like, I deserve, I deserve, you know, something. If I'm going to put my life in jeopardy to testify against this man, I mean, I'm in prison at the time. And I'm going to testify against this guy who is probably not going to take it well. and I'm not going to get anything for it. I mean, this doesn't seem fair to me. And it's a scary proposition. I mean, it doesn't, you don't even have to be testifying against a person.

If you tell on somebody in the yard, you're getting smashed. So testimony and putting a case on somebody in trial is like a whole new level of snitch. So it's a scary thing. And I thought that that fear was worth something. and if I wasn't going to get what it was worth, then I wasn't going to cooperate. And, you know, so they charged me in another case. And I'm shocked.

They didn't offer you like a deal to walk to get those other guys. Well, that's what I had initially thought, but I was the target. That's the problem. I guess that's juicier headlines. Those guys are already awaiting trial for something else. Those guys were already doing, they were in, they were already facing,

long, long senses, all of them. So they were either facing life or 30 years, all of them. And so I was the target. And that's where I kind of didn't quite understand it in the beginning. Like, no, man, I'm the target. And they made an example out of me. And rightfully so, they should have. And they did.

So you pled guilty? I pled guilty. I pled guilty. So that was. was part of the resentment was I had initially the plea. So there was one prosecutor and he, I went to a settlement conference. Like after they took me into custody the second time, the guy was like, okay, can we start talking about a plea now that he's in custody? And so they came with a plea and the plea was to a class four felony, which was assisting a criminal syndicate

and they were going to make it an open range. So that means they call it Stip DoC open range. stipulation to prison with an open sentence. And on a class four felony, on a first offense, it's a super mitigated of one year and a super aggravated of 3.75. To get either the super aggravated or the super mitigated is like a bolt of lightning. No one ever gets it. But they're there. Every now and then you can maybe pull one of those out.

But the real sentences are one and a half, two and a half, three. Presumptive is two and a half. I thought I could get a mitigated, a one and a half. half on that on that deal but um i didn't want to go to prison i didn't want to take that deal and i told the guy look can you just hold this offer open i have these i had other motions pending like i was litigating an evidentiary issue in the case and i thought it was going to be dispositive of the drug counts i thought i was going to beat the drug case and i would only have this cell phone matter And so I thought, look, if I can beat these, the drug counts are class two felonies, which is much more severe than the class four.

It goes two, you know, one through six, six is the least severe. And so I thought if I litigate these issues and I get rid of these drug charges because I didn't really have knowledge was my thinking as a lawyer. Like if I can show whatever evidentiary issue that it was, I get rid of those, then he's got to make a better deal than this class four stip DOS. deal. He's got to offer me a six open with probation. So I can earn a misdemeanor and keep my law license. I can I can manage this situation. I can control the outcome. Because as if me looking at it as a lawyer, this is what I would be trying to do. And so I said, hold the offer open until we litigate this issues. And he said, okay, no problem. And I thought, wonderful okay so the date was set to litigate those issues on a certain date and so i thought okay it's

going to go to that date so in the meantime i thought okay i'm going to cover my base i knew that judge moraz bless her heart um rest in peace i knew that she was a harsh sentenceer because i had cases in front of her which is another issue it was like why am i doing why am i in front of judge that I appeared in front of like how is this even a fair it's not even the appearance of impropriety I could be treating unduly fair like with too lenient or too harshly depending on which judge but anyways that's another start portion of this I kind of off on a tangent with that but nevertheless I knew her to be a harsh sentencer she was she was not someone you want to your client in front of for sentencing so I was like let's get out of Maraz so let's try to judge

shop so to speak and so we did that by my attorney did a motion of change of judge for cause because there was there was an issue there with her which was legit so they did change the judge I was getting so I'm like man things were working out I've got this offer held open and I'm gonna get if I do have to take it I'm not gonna be in front of Maraz to I thought she'd give me the three you know instead of the one and a half or maybe even the two and a half so I got it out of her care court, but it went into this void where it was in front of like another judge who this judge was trying to figure out who it would go to. And so in the interim, the date that what the hearing was set for those issues, it came and went. It got reset. So that date never actually

happened until much later. And so when that date did happen and the hearing came, I told my lawyers, look, we need to find out if the deal is still on the table, like at the beginning of the hearing, like, we need to make sure that deal is still there. Because I will take it if, you know, if we lose the hearing, that deal is a good deal. But if we win it, it's not so much, but I don't want to risk losing it completely. Make sure it's still on the table. So then we had the hearing and nothing was said about the deal. But after the hearing, the state's prosecutor said, hey, just so you know, I'm off the case. There's a new prosecutor coming in. And I was already gone. They'd taken me back to jail, but everybody's in the courtroom. So when I got back to, you know,

my cell and, you know, I went to the phone. I got on the phone. I'm like, hey, you know, what's going on, you know, what do you think? And my parents are like, hey, just to like, hey, just to like, let you know as soon as you left, the prosecutor turned and told your attorneys that there's a new prosecutor and the deal is off the table. Like the plea that you were going to get, it's gone. Like there's a new person coming in and I'm like, what? Like this can't be happening. So I was very upset with my attorneys because usually if the deal's going to come off the table, they let you know. You, you solidify that. Like if a plea bargain is usually in Maricopa County, they would have a plea deadline.

And it would say it on the plea, like there would be a plea deadline on the plea. This plea expires on such and such date. Sometimes they have them, you know, within the first two weeks it'll expire. Or sometimes it's at the IPTC or whatever. And this one was specifically for that date that we have the hearing. And they did not make sure.

So when the new prosecutor came in, she said, yeah, I'm not giving him that deal. I'm going to do two class two felonies to run consecutive to each other. a class two felony is the minimum super mitigated is three super max is 12 and a half presumptives five and she said look I'm I'm recommending 12 and a half 12 and a half 25 years and I'm like well nothing's changed in the case nothing new and so I just went from a maximum of 3.75 to now a maximum of 25 so I'm angry very angry I'm like I didn't kill anyone like what's happening right now 25 years over this, 25 years?

My kid was just born. Like, he's going to be a grown man by the time I get out. Like, that's it. I might as well just, like, close up shop. Like, I don't even know what's happening right now. I was in total disarray. And she ended up not recommending the 25 years, which I knew was totally unreasonable. She would have seemed really unreasonable doing that.

And, you know, but she did recommend the 10, I think she recommended 10 years. and then a probation tale of the maximum, which was seven, so she recommended 10 years and then a seven-year tail. And the judge gave me four with a seven-year tail. Did you think about representing yourself at all? Like as a criminal defense attorney, is it wise to go pro se or no? No, I mean, I thought about it, but I couldn't have done it. You know, if I was out of custody, it might have been something I could have entertained,

but in custody it's very difficult. The system is not meant, it's not something that's really easy to do if you're in custody. I know some guys that have done it and they have done it really well, but it's difficult. And I think that there's an old saying, you know, a lawyer who has himself for a client or has a fool for a client, a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. That's what it is. And so I just needed someone objective that could look at it. The issue is, you know, I just, I probably needed to be a little bit more involved rather than I kind of was involved when I wanted to be.

And I, I trusted. And, you know, I don't know. It's hard. It's easy to think back and like Monday morning quarterback. and think, well, if I would have done this or I would have done that or, you know, I should have fought this? Like, should I have fought the venue thing in the beginning? Like, shouldn't I have gotten a change of venue or something like that, you know, in the beginning? Or, well, I asked for one. They denied it. Should I have appealed that? Or, you know, all these different things. Or should I

have gone to trial or, you know, should I have fought the drug thing? Should I have done this? Should I've done that and I could go crazy with it but at the end of the day exactly what was supposed to happen happened how long had you been in for by the time you got sentenced I had been in for about nine months when I got sentenced so it was you know I had some time and I mean I thought like I remember thinking initially when I went in I was like okay I'm going to get in here I'm going to get a probation deal. I'm going to get out. Like, I'll do three, six months, and then I'll be out on probation, and I'll do like a probation tale. And I was even thinking at one point, okay, maybe if I just do a year, sometime when they do probation, anytime you have probation in Maricopa County, and it's

an open probation, you can, the judge can give you up to a year flat in county jail, meaning you have to serve every single day of the sentence. You can't do half time or early release. So you get a year flat as part of probation. So I thought, okay, well, I get probation. Worst case, a year flat in county jail. It's manageable. I can do it. And no, it just didn't work out like that. But, you know, I thought, you know, at some point, like, I could do a couple years, you know, if a couple years could be manageable. And, you know, right when I was going to get off that first sentence, I had to do, done three. So you have to do three on four. It's 85%. So it's about three in a month or so on four. And I had got to two. Or was that about two. I was almost out. Like, and then I got the second case.

They pulled me back. So that's how you ended up with an extra two years. I ended up an extra three years. Why would they? It had to run consecutive too. I almost got them to run a concurrent. but the police were at the court date. And the prosecutor, she actually was somewhat, you know, I don't know even why she would agree to it because, you know, the way that I treated her and the things that I did. But she said, yeah, I'll agree to the concurrency. And she signed it and everything was like,

we was going to be concurrent. And then the police that were there, because they followed the case, They were like there. Like there was like five or six of them. Every court date I had, they were always there, the gang squad. And they knew that she had agreed to the concurrency. And I saw like all this activity.

And I'm sitting in the, you know, where they sit all the inmates. And then my lawyer comes back and she goes, look, prosecutor. I won't say her name. She's, she agreed to this. But, you know, the police, they're not, they're not having it. It has to be consecutive. And I'm like, well, why do they get to run it? They're like, well, she can't do it.

She said it has to be consecutive. And so then it had to be consistent. I said, okay, well, just sign me up. At that point, I already done like two and a half years. I was, I knew the yard I was on. Like, I was familiar with the whole deal. I'm like, look, just sign me up. If it's less than, I said anything less than five years,

I'll do it. Sign me up. And I knew at that point I was institutionalized because my initial fear was if I just don't want to go to prison, I can maybe do a few months in county and then I can get out. And now I was like a few years, just sign me up, man. So that's all because they were after the other guys now. You weren't really the target and you didn't cooperate. And so they punished you that way. No, they just wanted to punish me. They weren't after the other guys. The other guy got convicted. The other guy was convicted. Why wait, though, two years? Why not just hammer you?

No, they wait. So the way I was, they only waited a year. Okay. So what happened was the trial was, so I was already. It's just the way it played out. Yeah, I was a year into my sentence already when the trial happened. So they called me out of back to go to court. And then they hit you with new charges after that.

And then when I came back to prison, I was like, you know, I had no idea I was going to get charged. Got it. And then all of a sudden one day. time was. Yeah. So then I was like almost about to get out and I was like everything's great. And they come to, well, actually my father came to visit me. And when he came to visit, they said he couldn't come in because he had a warrant for his arrest. And so I was, because I called. I'm like, why can you guys come in? And they go, well, your father is a warrant. I'm like, he has a warrant for what? And they tracked it down. They found out that he had a warrant for felony cases for like hindering

prosecution assisting criminal syndicate and we're like whoa what is this all about i'm like i can't believe they're doing this to my father i can't believe it and i had no idea still about me and then uh then i even found out that he had a co-defendant my father and i'm like i wonder who the co-defendant is who could it be you know i wonder what's going on and then i don't know it was like a sunday night or something the guard came to my cell he goes roll up and he goes you're going to court I'm like, what? Oh, no, I'm the co-defendant. So then they took me back to court, and I was like, what could I be, what could I have done?

You know, I'm like, man, I guess, you know, something. I don't know what they're trying to say. I did. Because he was charged with witness tampering, and I'm like, I couldn't tamper a witness. When did I tamper a witness? Like, so it was just. What happened to him? Did he get prison time?

No, they gave him a felony, a class six. felony witness tampering, but the judge designated it a misdemeanor at sentencing. So he ended up not doing any time. But I wasn't able to have any contact with him from that point forward until he had to get off probation. So he did like, they designated it. And I think he had like a short probation period. Once he was done with all that, then I could, I could have contact with him.

I had to get special permission from the deputy warden of the yard to be able to have contact with him again. But I was able to have contact with him for like the last year, I think, of my sentence. How was prison for you? What kind of yards did they send you to? Minimum custody. So you were away from like the Mexican mafia, the New Mexican mafia? Yeah, I didn't run into any validated guys when I was there. It was all minimum stuff.

I did, you know, I mean, I saw some really. crazy stuff for being on a minimum unit. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't really have any trouble. I was in a, you know, they call it like a, you know, like a, it's like a, what were they calling a camp Snoopy? Like nothing happens because everybody there just wants to go home. They have five years or less. And what better place for a criminal attorney than a prison, right?

well, I mean a convicted felon criminal attorney. But, you know, I had a lot of people that would ask me questions. And so that was really helpful because I didn't, because I had like that knowledge, it didn't, I didn't, there wasn't not a lot of problems created for me because I could be helpful. And I worked as like a, in the law library or the, I guess it's not really, so there's just a just a library, but they had legal materials in there. I could be helpful with telling people which forms were the right forms for what they wanted to do.

And, you know, I didn't give legal advice, but I could, like, guide them in, you know, different, like, here, you need this form for, if you're filing a divorce, this is the divorce thing. If you're filing, you know, for to quash a warrant, this is the form you need or, you know, that sort of thing. but it was also helpful just guys would always want to talk to me about their case like hey do you this is what happened in my case in my trial this is what my lawyer did do you think my lawyer screwed me over and you know there's a lot of lawyers out there that um they should be thanking me because um if they oh if they ever came to me and said my lawyer is a public pretender and this and that. Usually, like, I know at that time, I knew every single criminal defense attorney in Maricopa County. And probably all of them knew me as well. And I would always tell them, you know,

your lawyer is a good guy, man, and he's probably done everything possible that he can do. And whatever issue it is that you think that he's not addressing, he probably didn't address it for a very good reason. I know this guy personally or I know of him and I've never heard anything bad about him. So you know, maybe it was just, you know, you can't control a jury, man. You know, no matter how good a lawyer you are. It doesn't sound like you got railroaded or whatever. I would, you know, I guess I wouldn't, you know, be dishonest with them. I mean, if there was something, an issue that I think that maybe the lawyer could have done better. I might have said, you know, said that, but I don't, I don't recall ever like that coming up. I just recall, like, telling people, hey, you know, I probably wouldn't

have done it any different. And a lot of the questions guys ask, they don't really want to know the answer. They just want you to tell them what they want to hear. It's like, one guy was like, you know, here's my police report, man. The gun, it says the gun is silver, but my gun was black. The gun was black, man. They got the color of the gun wrong. Don't you think that's something? Don't you think I should that this is a point of appeal and I should get my case overturned? I'm like, well, you know, I don't think so.

But, you know, maybe. You can always try. You got nothing but time. But if I was the attorney on it, you know, I mean, I don't know if that's enough, my friend. But, you know, certainly you can contact your attorney or contacting appellate lawyer or file a motion, you can explore that issue. But, you know, they just want me to tell them, yeah, that's a huge issue. Yeah, you need to file an appeal and, you know, take it all the way and you can get your case reversed. That they just, that's what they want to hear. And so, you know, I can't always

just tell people what they want to hear. What surprised you the most about prison, especially as someone that was on the other side of it for so long? You know, what surprised me the most was that I think really there's just a lot of good people in there. And there's a lot of good things that can come out of prison. You know, a lot of people think that prison is just a breeding ground for people to learn how to do crime better and that it's not really about rehabilitation. some extent, you know, I think that prisons can do a better job with rehabilitation, with reentry and all of that. But I think that what surprises me is that there are many good things that you can take from prison. And, you know, it's somewhat like the military in many ways. Like, you know,

there are good habits that can come out of prison that I learned personally that, you know, I thought that I was a well-adjusted adult and could take care of myself. But, you know, there's something to be said about keeping your area clean and making your bed. Like, I learned how to make a bed, like, and tie that thing on there tight so that I would have a tight rack and, you know, folding my clothes and doing my lawn, like, you know, there's ways to, like, fold your laundry to make it look nice and setting up your shelves and keeping your area clean and being in compliance and looking nice and keeping good hygiene and conducting yourself in a way where you respect other people and how to handle situations with other people appropriately to where you know,

you're able to just learn ways to deal with situations differently than you might in the free world. And I think that there's a lot of good takeaways from some of the discipline and the compliance issues in prison that, you know, people might take for granted. You know, I think there are some people in there that don't recognize like, hey, you know, being having a job, showing up to your job in prison on time, being there, showing up for count, keeping yourself clean, keeping your area clean, looking at someone in the eyes. when you talk to them, respecting others space, you know, following rules. Those are all good habits

that can be taken into the free world with you. And if you learn from those things and you take them into the free world, they can actually help you when you get out. And so that was surprising to me that I could actually learn something in prison.

I didn't think that prison was going to do anything but make me a worse person. And I think that there are things in prison that if I would have engaged in those things, that I could have come out worse. And I think that, you know, it's easy to fall into those things. But early on, you know, people said, you know, don't gamble. Don't get into debt.

Don't get into drug debt. You know, don't sit on someone else's bed without permission. Don't smoke. you know after someone else like don't take us don't eat like there's certain rules for eating smoke like conducting yourself and not that those certain ones are not really applicable to the outside world but um some of them are and if you take them in a certain way like not sitting on someone's bed is just sort of like understanding someone else's personal space and you know asking permission to do certain things with people can translate to the free world.

That's surprising. What else is surprising is the number of people that are in there that are genuinely good people that just have drug habits that are sitting in prison for lengthy sentences that are either in there for selling drugs or doing drugs. And when I see them in there and they're sober, they're not using drugs and they're they're clean and they're you know you know maybe there there's different programs in there that we can do and you know when people are really serious about it and i see some of these men in there they're good people they're good hearts they're generous people they're kind they look out for one another

um they they they have kids they have families they see them when i see them how they interact with their families at visitation and you know I see the type of person that they can be it's like it's really surprising that they sometimes you see a person they're like and then you understand what why they're there and you're like man you did that like and it's all behind drugs and it's like drugs really change a person they can change they can change you at your core your character you think that you know your character is your character whether you're on drugs or not but a lot of people it can change who who you are because you can't you just can't control it and that's surprising to me how many people are in there that really don't need to be in there what they need to be is in a like maybe

some sort of intensive drug rehabilitation center um you know there's there is a punitive measure that needs to be enacted but you know once you get beyond the punitive measures you know, I think that rehabilitation is important. And then, you know, what else is surprising is it's a lot better now. But previously, when I was there, they have a reentry program. I didn't get it. Like, they didn't give it to me. I don't know if that's because they thought I didn't need it or what, but like I would have

really helped me because I didn't reenter society very well, as we know. So imagine a 20-year-old kid who's got no life skills, never knows how to, he doesn't pay a mortgage, he's never paid a car payment. All he knows is he's, you know, out there slanging dope or stealing cars or whatever. And he has no trade, no work skills, no employment history. And he has no driver's license. And he's going to get released. How do you just release him out into the wild, man?

So there's no reentry program. again, new freedom, wonderful program. What I thought about when I saw New Freedom was like, everybody should have to go through this. Not everybody. There's always exceptions. Like some people can get out and adjust. But a lot of people with the benefit of a program like maybe that mentorship

and then leading into a program like New Freedom, it will mean the difference between assimilating back into society and becoming successful and adjusting and recidivism, going back and committing another felony because, you know, you just can't, you're having a challenge and adversity and you're not equipped with the tools that you need. So you revert to old behaviors and now you wind up back in prison and you're part of the machine and now you've got two felonies, now you've got three felonies and you're just, you're caught. instead you get a program like a new freedom or like maybe even a crossroads or there's other programs

oasis where you can get out and really learn life skills get set up get a get your warrants taking care of your little fines your get your driver's license and be able to you know become an electrician or get your get your law degree i don't know whatever it is and um that's surprising to me that it's not, there isn't more emphasis on educating young men and their, and women, on not only just educating them in general, but educating them on what to expect when they get out. And, you know, it's like you have to qualify for it. Like everyone should qualify. And that's, that's really surprising.

But I know that, you know, when I was there, it was just, Arizona Department of Corrections. Now it's Arizona Department of Corrections rehab and rehabilitation or something, a reentry, rehabilitation and reentry. And I don't know if those are just terms or if they're really doing it. But I know that new freedom exists. So how much time did you end up doing in total? Five years, nine months, 23 days. Do you think you deserve to go to prison looking back on it now? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I don't know if I needed to do as much time as I did, but I deserved everything that I got. Yeah.

It's always interesting. I always talk about this with my guess, you know, how much time they think they needed. And I feel like when, you know, society or the justice system can get that right, then I think the sentences will be a lot different and a lot more fair. But the problem is how do you even figure that out, you know? someone that got 20 years might only need two years to change their life. Or vice versa, the person that got two years might need 20 years. Yeah. I mean, I think that I could have done with less prison time,

but what I needed was some prison time stacked with I needed rehabilitation. I needed drug rehabilitation. But, you know, when I think about it, like, I didn't recognize I was an addict or an alcoholic at that time. So it probably wouldn't have done me any. good. But I don't know like if I, even if I would have done more prison time, I don't think it would have prevented anything that occurred after my prison sentence either. So I think I got, you know,

just the right amount of time. I mean, I definitely, you know, can't change it. Now, you mentioned this was 20 years ago. What year was it when you got out of prison? So I got out of prison in 2014. Okay. So my crime, so the crime. was I did the crime in 2008, so it was almost 20. 17 years ago, is that 17, 18 years ago? 2008? Yeah, no, that's 18 years ago. 18 years, yeah.

Now, you met your wife after prison. I did. What did she think when you told her this whole story? Well, she was like, I won't judge you for it. I mean, as long as it's in your past, you know, I would never judge you for your past as long as you change your life now. And, you know, she's a wonderful woman to have that attitude. I mean, I think a lot of people would judge the past. She didn't really, I don't think I described to her in as much detail as we've gone into, but I kind of, you know, kept it general and, you know,

know, said, oh, you know, it's just this is what I did. And it was, you know, not, I probably minimized it. But since that time, you know, now she knows everything. And I hold nothing back. And, you know, I had told her that, you know, when I was on probation, I never had a relapse. And I had to come clean about that. And, you know, she found out just like I did that I have a drinking problem as well. You know, so she's been on the other end of that one. And, you know, she's, she's been by my side. And I love her very much for that.

She's stuck by me. What about your child? Have you had a conversation about this yet? Yeah, he knows. He'll probably watch this. He knows it. He knows all about it. He's a great kid.

I hope that he will. become a lawyer. He's expressed some interest in becoming a lawyer. Same with my, so I also have three stepdaughters, all three wonderful women. They have taught me a lot about what it means to be a father and especially with daughters, because I had a son for so long and I come from a very male-dominated sort of background with my culturally. And so my stepdaughters, I consider them my daughters, all three of them. They're all very headstrong, very opinionated.

And they're all three of them are going to be very successful in their own ways. And one of them also, I think, is headed to law school as well. So I might get like a family crew of like, you know, a son, a daughter starting a law firm or maybe I could work there. Yeah, maybe you're the paralegal or doing. Yeah, I could be the paralegal for them and guide them. And, you know, I could be the man behind the scenes. And, you know, that would be a wonderful thing.

They're, you know, they're both very smart. All of them are, are smart, talented people in their own. Each one of them has sort of their own different talents. And they all know my story. And I don't hide it. I totally transparent with it, with them. With the legal community, I talk to conferences. I do continuing legal education for, for lawyers.

I speak to the public defender's office, city of Phoenix, Maricopa County. I, to the, they have a statewide conference that I speak at where I talk about, you know, being a young attorney, having the stress and pressure of having to run a practice and then facing a substance abuse issue and how to deal with it and how you know the state bar came to me well before any of these crimes and and and tried to help me and I was too scared to admit and be honest with the the person at the state bar that was working for them mr. Nevit when he asked me you know if I had a drug problem I would deny it because I feared that I would lose my career in my life if I said I had a drug problem and I asked for help.

And it's the irony is that like because I was too scared to ask for help, you lost it. I lost everything. Whereas if I a year and a half, like it was sometime in 2007 I was using drugs before any crime. Well, using drugs is a crime, you know, using hard drugs. So I always have to remember that. But before I had, you know, committed the crimes that put me in prison, you know, I could have gotten help and I wish I would have, but, you know, I was too scared to do that. You know, that was the whole thing.

I was always too scared to admit I had a problem because I thought I was going to lose everything. So my daily life was living in fear, whether even if I wasn't using that day, it was always like, is someone going to know I'm using drugs? Is somebody going to see me? Like, and that's the crazy thing, you know, that fear gets you. But so hopefully, you know, my kids, son and daughters, you know, they, um, they learn from this of what not to do. And if they ever find themselves having an issue, they're not afraid to ask for help. And I'm always here for them.

I'm here for the legal community. I'm always willing to speak somewhere to tell my story so that somebody can maybe decide. that, you know, they don't want to do what I did. You know, it's hard, though. Like, I don't think I would have, if someone would have spoke out back then and said, oh, I have a drug problem and here's what you need to do, I'd have been like, yeah, right, that's not me, man. I'm okay.

I can, I'll be all right, you know. And I, and I see that now. Like, I know of a turn, like, there is people that I know that are struggling in the legal field that need help, but probably hear what I have to say and they say, well, that's not me. I didn't take drugs into the jail. And so that's tough. When I talk about my story, it's hard. When I get into specifics, like, oh, I used crack or I used meth and I did $1,000 a day,

that sort of takes away from the message to somebody else that could get help. because people that are drug addicts, they look for those differences. Instead of looking for the similarities, they'll pick out, oh, well, see, he's doing a thousand dollars a day. I'm only doing 20 bucks a day. So I can manage. I'm not that bad. Or I'm just doing it once a month.

Or I'm not him. I don't do it exactly like that. So their disease creates the difference in their head. And then they make up an excuse not to get help so that their disease can continue to live and feed off them. And that's really the struggle because you have to surrender. You have to ask for help or else you're going to wind up in jail or dead. It's one of the two.

There is no other way. If you're truly an addict, you go to jail, prison, or you wind up dead from it. So thank God I was able to surrender. What do you know now that you wish you knew when you got offered to bring that paper in to the prison? I know now that what I wish I knew was like that there, I wish that I knew there was I knew there was heroin in it that first time. And I wish I knew that it would have been all okay if I would have just said no, you know. I wish it would have been different. But that said, you know, I think if I focus too much on like woulda, coulda, shoulda,

that's also, that's the kind of poison that creeps back in and creates like reasons that can cause relapse. So I try not to focus on, well, I could have done this. There's a person that's in recovery that I like a lot. Her name's Rhonda. And she has the saying. she says there's no hope for a better yesterday and she's an amazing speaker and uh that right there no hope for a better yesterday i just um i love that because i can't change the past it's done and i even if i wish something different would have happened it then i don't know where i'd be today

Like if I wouldn't have taken the drugs in, like I still had a drug addiction and a drug habit. Maybe I would have died in a car wreck. Maybe I would have fell asleep at the wheel. Maybe any number of things could have happened. So I believe that God put me on that path for a reason. He has walked alongside me this whole time. Of course, I've made the wrong decisions. But he stayed there and I'm here now and I'm alive to tell.

the story for a reason. And I love my life today. Today my life is amazing. And like I said, I have my son and those three daughters and my wife. Both my parents are still alive. My sister, my brother-in-law, I have a wonderful family that I'm so grateful for. And I get to be a part of that today. And I'm sober and life is good. And I'm here in L.A., like doing this podcast. with Ian freaking Bick from locked in and I mean life is good man I mean how can I complain or wish that something went different yeah sometimes I like to think well things could have been different and you have these visions like I could have been the criminal attorney that I wished I could have been but then I couldn't be here with you having this podcast and you know

there's something to be said about it there is is, you know, I'm grateful to be here, man. I think, you know, I've told a lot, but there's really a, there's a story to tell here, and I think it's worth telling. And, you know, what better place to tell it than, than right here with you. I mean, I appreciate you. I'm a little starstruck. I see all these, you know, reels with you and the podcast and the stuff.

And then I see you in person, man. And, like, it's amazing. I'm like I'm so happy to be here I'm happy to have you And you know it's such a powerful message in itself For the people that are currently going through something

Because I wish I saw these types of stories When I was going through it Because it gives you that hope I mean you hear the whole from like the famous people You gotta fail to succeed this and that But when I was going through my situation I didn't get to see someone that was like me Going through that that had came through it

on the other side to see that. So I think that's so powerful, too. You know, you have that knowledge. I interview a lot of, you know, like doctors that were in your situation. Nurses, I just had an episode last night with a nurse. So you appeal to that demographic, too. It's not just attorneys or any professionals and that were cops. That could be in your position.

So it's a very powerful story. And I appreciate you giving us the opportunity to share. share it. Yeah, thanks. Of course.