Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was A Mafia Boss – This Is Why I Broke The Code & Walked Away | Anthony Arillotta

Episode Date: November 27, 2025

Anthony Arillotta was a powerful boss in the Genovese Crime Family, one of New York’s most feared mafia organizations. Rising through the ranks in Springfield, Massachusetts, Arillotta became a made man and later took control of the family’s operations — running gambling, loansharking, and extortion rackets that defined East Coast organized crime. After years of violence, betrayal, and federal investigations, he made a decision that shocked the mob world and changed his life forever. Anthony opens up about his rise in the Genovese family, life as a mafia boss, the murders and power struggles that came with it, and what ultimately made him walk away from one of the most dangerous criminal organizations in America. #AnthonyArillotta #GenoveseCrimeFamily #MafiaBoss #LockedInWithIanBick #OrganizedCrime #TrueCrimePodcast #MafiaStories #prisoninterviews Thanks to RULA & CASH APP for sponsoring this episode: Rula: Rula patients typically pay $15 per session when using insurance. Connect with quality therapists and mental health experts who specialize in you at https://www.rula.com/LOCKEDIN  #rulapod Cash App: Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/6pao71et #CashAppPod Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App’s bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. See terms and conditions at cash.app/legal/us/en-us/card-agreement. Promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. Connect with Anthony Arillotta: Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/South-End-Syndicate-Genovese-Springfield/dp/B0DRC2VHWC Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/anthony_bingy_arillotta/?hl=en Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/tony.canoli.378/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 – Intro: Mafia Life, Mob Culture & Guest Overview 00:41 – Guest Background, Upbringing & How He Entered Mob Circles 02:32 – His Book, Untold Mafia Territory & Forgotten Mob History 05:32 – Organized Crime in Western Massachusetts & Connecticut 08:36 – Family Roots, Wine Business & Early Influences 13:10 – Growing Up in Springfield: Family, Business & Early Identity 19:55 – Lessons from Parents, Money, Loyalty & Discipline 24:26 – Childhood Dreams & Early Attraction to the Mafia World 27:38 – First Fights, Street Rules & Learning the System 32:10 – Violence: Where It Started, Justifications & Mindset 37:00 – Teenage Chaos: School Trouble, Street Life & First Jail Time 41:45 – First Prison Sentence & Learning Real Mob Education 50:05 – Entering Organized Crime: Becoming Part of the Mob 57:55 – Mob Myths vs Reality, Age, Recruitment & Street Credibility 01:00:45 – Money-Making Rackets: Loansharking, Collections & Street Hustles 01:14:09 – Being Put ‘On Record’ & Living as a Mob Associate 01:22:28 – Becoming a Made Guy: Hits, Violence & Mob Orders 01:43:56 – The Downfall: Mafia Wars, Betrayals & FBI Pressure 01:58:38 – Prison Time: Surviving as a High-Ranking Mobster Behind Bars 02:05:37 – Walking Away: Internal Conflict & Deciding to Cooperate 02:21:05 – Final Prison Sentence, FBI Cooperation & Turning Informant 02:34:12 – Life After Prison: Regrets, Recovery & Lessons Learned 02:41:00 – Advice to His Younger Self & Powerful Closing Reflections Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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We were going to kill him. Tell us what it's like to actually get made. If I'm a guy that's known for shooting people, and I come to you and say, listen, if you don't have my money tomorrow, I'm going to shoot you. You don't think you're going to be worried? What was it like to be in prison being a high-ranking mobster? I wish the violence did it happen.

But do I lose sleep over it? No. How does it make you feel that you were willing to kill people that did the same exact thing that you ended up doing in the end? Anthony Aralada wasn't just connected to the mafia. He ran part of it. As a boss in the Genevieve's crime family, he ordered hits, made millions,

and lived by the code until he didn't. In this exclusive interview, he reveals what life was really like inside one of America's most powerful crime families and why he finally walked away. Anthony, welcome to Locked in. Thanks so much for coming on the show. Hey, Ian, thank you for having me.

Yeah, you first came on my radar a couple years ago when I was doing Johnny Mitchell's clips back in the day running his TikTok and stuff. I saw your story. Very crazy stories, but I think you were the first former mafia guy I came across. Is that right? Yeah, I think, I think he had you and then he had a couple of the other ones, but you were, I think the first one he had on.

So you were, because you were working with Johnny. Yep, I used to run his TikTok for him. I had met him. What I did was I cold DMed him one day when he did a flagrance show. We picked him up in New York and then brought him to our old studio in Poughkeepsie. And it was like a two and a half hour drive and we were just talking. And then he's like, oh, you run social medias. And at the time I did, and I was like, yeah, and I started working for him.

Oh, nice. And now Maddie Ice works for him. Yeah. So he's out in California now, though, right? I think he moved to Texas. Did he? Yeah, he was in California. He's in Texas now.

Okay, because when I did the show with him, I was in L.A. Yep, that's where he's, I think he splits his time back and forth, but he spends most of his time in Texas. Okay, nice. But, yeah, that's where I first came across your story. Okay. Then there was the bigger guy. I think his name's Anthony, too. Anthony.

Is it Ruggiano? Yeah. Okay. that's who he had too yeah he's had a bunch of them dominic saccali jean beorello uh i think johnny y a he had like a lot of um mobsters on yeah he had a lot of guys yeah um i messaged jean at one point to have him on the show like yeah i think like a year and a half ago and he's and then he right away doesn't even says high or a low he just says 500 bucks for zoom and it was it was an extra amount for in person and then that

was the end of that yeah so funny um but yeah want to talk about your book in the beginning of this episode. And you also brought us a bottle of wine. Yep. So tell the audience about both of these things. So the book, South End Syndicate, was written in 2000. It came out last September. And, you know, like you said, I had a crazy story. But, and you are from Connecticut. So I'm from Springfield, Mass, you know, very close. I border Hartford. It's 20 minutes from Hartford, Connecticut. So. The organized crime stories had a significant role throughout history. And you never really hear anything from Western Mass, Central Mass, which is Worcester, and going into Connecticut. And you had some notorious gangsters to come out of those Massachusetts and Connecticut. And you never heard anything about it.

And legendary bosses in organized crime, you know, not glorifying the life, but in the organized crime, there were legendary bosses, Big No Sam, Billy Grasso, Whitey Troppiano, And so I was a, I believe I put us nationally on the map with my part of history in this, whatever you want to call it, saga, organized crime. But I don't think it should have been like that. I think that it should have been discussed and talked about more prior to me. I was just a part of it. So I wanted to write the book to tell the, you know,

know, the world or the nation, you know, the history of organized crime in Connecticut and Massachusetts. So that was the big part of, you know, telling the story. And then my part of that story was a huge part. You know, there was a lot of violence. There was lots of, you know, money, millions of dollars, a very lucrative crew we had. And so I had a big part of that story. So that was the main reason of writing the book. Yeah, you know, it's interesting growing up, we never. hear about the mob stores in Connecticut. There you go. It's always pretty much just New York.

Why, though? Because New York's bigger cities, you know, you've got names like Gotti and the five families are out of New York. And so, you know, then you got bigger cities outside. There's Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston even. You see books and things written on them, but never Connecticut, Western Central Mass. You never hear anything.

And I could go on. I could give you dozens. and dozens of names of, and I've been around these criminals my whole life. In prison, outside of prison, I've seen, I've been with bosses and other families, the Bonanos, the Gambinos, the Genovese's, and I've been around our own crew of bosses. And it's one and the same. There is no different when you see them, you know, when it comes to being a violent killer, being able to make millions of dollars in the rackets in that life, it's one and the same.

So, yeah, you don't really hear stories. And now you're going to start hearing some. And the wine business, tell everyone about that. So the wine business, it's called pato wine. Pazzo means crazy in Italian. And I grew up in the family. My father was in the fruit and produce business. He was the largest wine grape distributor in all of Massachusetts.

Connecticut also. They used to come and buy the grapes, you know, to make their own. wines, all the Italian immigrants, a lot of Portuguese immigrants, they all came to my father's store. So I was around it growing up. I was, you know, drinking homemade wine at four years old. My grandfather made it. My uncle's my father. So I grew up with that. My father was selling the wine. And so, you know, I know I didn't partake in that business of his. It was a lot of work and everything. I went on my own in the streets and legitimate businesses elsewhere. But when I came home the last time from prison in 2017, I linked up with a federal marshal that worked on my case, the last case, the death penalty case, and out of New York.

And so he reached out and he was part of this group that has wedding venues and resorts and golf courses on them and wineries. and, you know, we talked about getting into some real estate deals, and we both thought it was a great idea to get involved in the wine business. So that's what we did. And our winery is in Maryland. That's where we grow the graves, Bohemia Manor. But our partners own three more in Maryland, two more in New Jersey. And we're looking to buy another one actively right now in Connecticut.

We're trying to, you know, look for a nice spot because it's something very closer. were for me, myself. Tell us about your childhood growing up in Springfield. My childhood was, I had a great life. I had a great childhood, great parents, great, big Italian family. Springfield was loaded with Italian immigrants, a very highly populated Italian immigrant city. And I grew up with a lot of, like I said, my father was in the produce business. I used to work there.

He used to drag me there in the morning, waking me up. that, you know, when I wasn't in school, he dragged me to go to work over there. And hard work. He was a great man. My father wasn't involved in any organized crime activity. Very legitimate, great, great man, but very hard worker. I mean, that business was just brutal, brutal work, waking up at four, you know, picking up 40, 50-pound boxes of orange.

I mean, he used to sell seven trailer loads of produce a week, seven trailer loads. So can you imagine there's like 28 pallets on a trailer? And, you know, on a Saturday, we'd go through like, you know, 30 pallets of produce. I'm just, you know, on one day. So you just picture you've got to pick up the produce, put it on the shelves, and do a lot of work. So that wasn't for me. And but I worked there up until my, you know, mid-teens or, you know, later in the teenager years. And I had a great childhood.

No, no history of fun. I was just a fun, you know, grandparents on both sides, aunts, uncles on both sides. Everybody, and the reason I'm, you know, my father's store, everybody worked there. So I had grandmothers and both sides, grandfather's, aunts, uncles, cousins. It was like 20 of us working at my father's store. And it was a big family, you know, you know, get to a lot of Italian, you know, immigrants, Russian, Spanish, you know, it was a poor people place. He had a place where he would give the produce, you know,

five times cheaper if you went into a supermarket. So if you went to a supermarket and spent 500, you could get the same amount of stuff for $100 at my father's store. And that's why everybody went there and, you know, he had deals and things like that for the poor people. And even the people with money went there because they all want deals too, you know. So I had a great childhood. I used to play sports.

I was involved in all the sports. You know, always in trouble fighting. And, you know, but not, you know, just getting stupid fights. You know, in school, you know, we're fighting each other. You know, we were Italians. We're fighting the Irish or the Spanish or this, you know, whatever. Just over knows stupid reason. And, you know, always in trouble.

Always busting balls and having fun in life. What about your mom? My mom, yeah, she's still alive. She was with my father. They were together the whole time. My father passed while I was in prison in 07. But, yeah, she was, you know, always there. Always, you know, I could never do any wrong, even when I did wrong.

You know, she was like, you know, that's probably not a good thing, you know. Because, but yeah, I was never wrong at anything. And she would go to war with me if there was, you know, teacher called up at school. And I'm going to get suspended because we did this when she would have, you know, she would defend me, you know, over that case, you know. So what do you think was the most important lesson your parents taught you as a kid? My father, really. My father is, you know, he used to always say, didn't want me to, you know, be involved in street crime, organized crime,

because it was a mafia had a big presence in Springfield. So didn't want me involved in that. I told me there's no such things as kings on earth, you know, you know, in that life you're going to end up dead or go to prison. You know, so you always preached me to work, you know, at something. And being around that business helped me out in a way where, his business is at a young age i was like five six years old and you know he used to have and this is back in the 70s and um he used to do like 70 80 000 in business all cash and even the food stamps back

then were money they were paper money like ones and fives and tens and 20s they were all like instead of cards they were money money but you know so you had to straighten out the money so on a saturday he'd probably do 25 000 on a saturday and now the money's got to be straightened out you know the ones, the fives, put them in the right order, put them in $2,000 bundles and get them ready for the bank. And so being around that kind of money at a young age, helping him count it, helping him straighten it out, you know, got my mindset around money at a young age, you know, seeing that type of money. So I was accustomed to being around money like that, which helped me out in the future. I never thought small. I always thought large. I didn't, you know, if something,

You know, I was never a nine to five guy. I looked at things. Even like when it came to the rackets on the street, I was looking for the home runs. I wasn't looking, you know, you start off grinding and everything, but if it couldn't potentially lead to something that's going to, you know, net me millions of dollars, then I want to waste my time with it. Did you guys grow up with money because of his business or did you still struggle? So we were like high middle class, I would say, you know. But the problem was my father was such a hard work. He was never home.

So I used to play sports. He wanted to come to my games. A lot of times he did, but he couldn't because he was, his store was a madhouse. I mean, it was crazy. We had six cashiers working there, and the line was still 20, 30 people deep. I mean, it was just insane. So would you just ask me about it? About if you guys grew up with money.

Yeah, so we were middle class. I had a roof over my house, my own bedroom. I didn't have to worry about food. no bills i never had to pay a bill my mother did my clothes so there was no if i wanted to go out somewhere you know we you know my mother would give me a hundred dollars to go out you know back then in the 70s you know 80s she would give me money to go out and eat dinner we'd go to the movies me and my friends or just be hanging around and so yeah i had it like that i didn't grow up but that doesn't do anything for me in fact you know i think growing up poor helps the

that person in the long run. Because I didn't, I wasn't hungry at a young age. I wasn't, you know, I didn't need to go out and work. My father had a business. I go to my father. But, you know, I would go to him and work and I didn't get paid either. Like, you know, like he just, it's family. You go there and work for nothing.

And then when I started getting older and I needed, you know, to pay some bills, you're still working. Like I was working 80 hours a week, work, work, you know, making $400 a week. You know what I'm saying? So when I, uh, so no. We didn't grow up poor. We grew up, you know, middle class. I never wanted for anything if I needed it.

But that wasn't for me. I didn't, you know, just because I grew up like that doesn't mean that's mine. You know, I want to go out and make my own. And eventually that's what I did. Like working at the store, I was working the wine grape season. Wine grapes is every, like, September, October. That's when the trucks come in. My father would sell like 40 loads of trailer loads of wine grapes every year.

And it's a pain in the ass. You got to pick up the boxes. You got to cut the wires off them and they cut your hands. And then you got yellow jacket bees stinging you because of the sugar of the grapes. And you got to load up 40 pound boxes, seven high, 280 pounds on a two-wheeler. And some guy bought 600 boxes. And you got to load all that in his truck. You know, so back break and work.

And that's how I got into the streets, you know, based on that. I know I jumped ahead a little bit because you asked it first. We grew up on money, but I ended up leaving the store and went and sold 10 pounds of marijuana, and I made $400 a pound. I was back within an hour and I made $4,000. And so I'm working 80 hours a week, making $400, back break and work, just brutal work. And in one hour, I made $4,000. So, you know, after that it was like, you know, the fruit store is not food.

You know, when I got out of prison, everyone kept telling me, just get therapy, it will help, like it was as easy as ordering a pizza. Meanwhile, every therapist I found either didn't take my insurance, wasn't accepting new patients, or wanted me to wait months, just to talk to someone for 45 minutes. And when you're dealing with stress, anxiety, rebuilding your life, and trying not to fall back into old habits, waiting months is not an option. That's why I'm a huge fan of Rula, because Rula actually feels. fixes the biggest problems people run into when trying to get help, finding someone who takes your

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You deserve mental health care that works with you, not against your budget. Before you ever turned to the streets, what were your aspirations? What were you thinking up for your future? I never really had any aspirations, you know, young. I just thought that, you know, everyone would be like you're going to take over your father's business because it was a you know he had a gold mine there it was he was one of the largest small businesses in the um western mass area you know back like i said in the 70s and 80s he's doing 70 to 80 thousand a week in cash you know so that was back then and so um you know i was just working there i never i was into sports but you know um i never really thought I would make a pro, you know. So as far as aspirations, you know, the mafia had a huge presence

in our area, huge. And so they used to always come into the store and I always kind of, you know, wanted to know who these people are and that kind of interested me. You know, these guys come in dress nice. Some of them dressed nice. Some of them like Anthony de label dressed like a, a lumberjack, you know, jeans and everything, but still vicious. And they would get treated with respect. The boss, Big No, Sam, Kaffari would come in and, you know, my father would, they all cater to them, show them all this respect. I didn't, you know, I don't know if it was aspiration, but it was something that I liked,

like, who are these people? You know, then especially you ask your grandparents and say, oh, they're, they're, you know, my father, they're not nice people or whatever, things like. that um you know but everyone was nice to them everyone treated them with respect so um it intrigues you you know like who are these people and then you start hearing on the streets the mafia more you know i'm in 15 years you know you're hearing about it since you're a little kid you know and um but as far as aspirations i didn't really have uh any um known that i've known of just, I didn't really have any.

Just go out and make money. In those moments you were just describing, do you ever picture yourself becoming one of them? Yeah. So when I started learning more about the mafia, I knew that there were a bunch of killers. That's what I was told. And you had a kill to be part of that mafia family,

that organized crime family. So at a young age, I always wondered, could I kill someone? and um you know and i used to think about that at a young age like 13 14 you know i used to always think could i do that and i always said at a young age i could but i would always say it where i would want to be like a good mafia guy like you know you know kill the evil ones you know kill uh somebody like that obviously it doesn't work like that in that life if you know you kill your best friends and you might have to kill you know someone who grew up with your whole life but

for the most part um you're killing evil people if you'd say that someone else killed uh someone else i want to call them an angel right so you pretty much end up killing uh evil people so yeah i uh and then you start getting older now now you start hitting your your mid teens you're getting in gang fights on the streets, you know, your serious weapons are being used now, knives and guns and bats and clubs. And your reputation is, you don't know it, but you're getting a reputation for violence.

We had a big gang of us in Springfield. There was a lot of gangs throughout Springfield, but our gang hung around down the south end of Springfield. And like I said, heavily populated with Italians, immigrants, Italians all over the place, and we were always in trouble fighting. and so the reputation is going. And now you could start seeing,

listen, if you're Italian growing up back then, you're not going to try to be part of, you know, the Crips, the Bloods, the Latin Kings. That didn't exist back then. There's only one thing and one thing only, and that's the Italian mafia. You know, so that's what you would, that's the goal right there is to be around that.

What was the first violent act you ever committed as a kid and how do you think it shaped the rest of your life from that moment? So, like I said, I was in school fights my whole life since kindergarten. I was getting into fights. You know, those are just little stupid fights. The first major fight was we had a like,

there was a big like kind of a gang fight. And I was 15 years old and hit the kid over the head with a stick, a broom type of stick. The problem was there was a nail at the end of the stick. And it went into the kid's head, you know. And the kid went down, blood started squirting up, and everybody kind of like, you know, the fight ended. And cops grabbed us shortly afterwards. I got arrested.

And so I was 15 years old for assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. And I was a juvenile. So I was a juvenile in juvenile court, you know. And so that was like pretty much, I would say, the first violence. It didn't change me as far as, it. How it changed me was it got me, so it got me adapted to the court system. First time I had cuffs put on me, you're in a police car. You know, some kids are this is going to scare them and they're ever going to get in trouble

again or some kids are going to be like, you know, it didn't bother them. And you go down to the police station. I remember the detective said you should get your legs broken, you little punk, you know, and he put me in the car and brought me down to the station. And don't forget, I'm a jury. juvenile. So they couldn't put me in a regular, like a police, you know, thing. And anyways, I get out, bail out. I go to court. I get found guilty. And I'm a juvenile delinquent. But someone got, got to the kids, one of the kids, whatever, families of this and that. And we appealed it. And on

appeal, the kid never came forward. And I ended up getting that case turned. So I would say the impact on that is knowing that I could commit violence, number one, and that I could get away with it. Because we had a lot of political power connections that we could go to get us out of it, you know, with things like that, and which happened throughout my whole life. Where do you think that ability to commit violence comes from? You know, with me, I just think it just grows.

It wasn't, you know, I had, like I said, I had a good life. I had, I wasn't beaten by nobody, parents, nothing like that. I had a fun life. It was fun and I love teasing and busting balls every day of my life. And it was a good life. But I just think, I don't know, maybe just the bloodstream of my mother and father, the combination of it. You know, we have like, we don't like when someone wrongs you, you have a temper. And so when it comes to that, it's kind of like,

You react and the violence comes. And, you know, it's just like some people, when they, somebody does them wrong, they can walk away from it. And some people, they don't like that. And then, you know, this escalates and it leads into a fight. And, yeah, but I don't know where it would come. I just think it's in there. And I don't know where it came from.

It was just part of it. and, you know, not for a bad reason. It's always justified, if you want to, you know, say that. You know, it's somebody wants to fight you. You fight them. It's not like you're just going up to somebody, you know, like these things today on the subway and hitting somebody for no reason or pushing someone in a subway for the train to run them over or, you know,

stabbing somebody for no reason. There was always reasons, you know, our gang against their gang. He wants to fight me. I fight him, you know, things like that. Did you end up graduating high school? Yeah. 12th grade i don't know how i graduated i never took a book home you know 11th grade me i never forget this um we had two vice principals you know like one for the a to m and then one for the m to z

and and um my name started with a my friend anthony schabelli started with us so he had one i had one and we were in fights every single day at high school i mean we had the cops with horses there because there was gang fights after the high school you know and it was always us us with this group us with that group, us with this group. And so that year of 11th grade, I remember, we got suspended, I think, and I don't know how many school days there were on a year. What is there, like less than 200? I mean, I don't know, there's 365 days a year.

How many of them are actually school days? Yeah. We miss, like, more than half of them, you know, like 100, you know, 100 days between suspension and absentees, you know, a skip in school. And they passed us from 11th to 12th grade. And I don't know how I never took a book home from my, whole life. I never took a book. I'm educated. I can read very well. I can spell very well. I'm great at math, but I never took a book home. And we passed from 11 to 12th. And then 12th grade,

we ended up graduating. And I don't know how. Maybe your parents' connections again. No, I don't think so. I just, I know we cheated. I cheated on, you know, I had people doing my test for me, things like that. But I remember one report card I got all Fs. F's and I think 1D. F, F, F, F, F, F and 1D. I mean, so I don't know how I passed that. They just wanted you out of there. Probably, yeah.

You know, I ran into the high school principals, like, after we graduated, you know, like a few years, I seen them at the health, at the gym, at the, you know, where we work out. So I said, hey, Mr. Walsh, how you doing? And he's trying to, because he had thousands of kids, how's he going to, and he goes, trying to place me. And I go, who were the two greatest? students you've ever had at the high school. You know, the way I said it, I was being sarcastic.

And he goes, he goes, worship belly. He knew right away. We had them poor guys, you know, like I said, there was a fight just about every day after school. You know, one time he grabbed me, goes, you get in the office. And then this girl comes in and she goes, Mr. Walsh, I need this to you to sign. He goes, please, girl, get to get, you know, I think he's curse and everything. Get the fuck out of here.

I got a goddamn war on my hand. And, yeah, so it was... USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. Whether it's a movie night or just midday,

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No. Jail. Prison. Right away. Yeah, I graduated 18. I was in prison like 20. What happened? So I was always in trouble picking up assault and battery cases. And like I said, we'd get them. dismissed. Lots of them would get dismissed. We had the local, the U.S. attorney, you know, state prosecutor in our pocket. The mafia ended up killing my friend's

father because of this prosecutor. So they had control of him from the 70s to the 90s. So anytime we got in trouble and you were in the right side of organized crime group because we had factions within the fact, you know, within our groups, you know, So if you were in the right, with the right faction, this prosecutor, you would get the charges dismissed. And that's what happened to me. You know, I would get in trouble, assault and battery, case dismissed. Now prost, blah, blah, blah. But on one case, I got probation.

And so I'm serving like a three-year probation for an assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. You know, they couldn't just keep dismissing, keep dismissing. And so they give me a three-year probation. And then I get a shooting case where I get, caught with a gun, a shooting case out of it. No, no victims, though. But I got pulled over with a 9mm in my car. And my car at the time wasn't in chat of Cadillac.

It wasn't insured a registered. So they hit me with the gun, you know, a shooting, but no victim. And I was on probation. So I received a five-year sentence for that in a state prison sentence. So I was never, ever in prison ever. And my first time ever, I go to a state prison in Massachusetts. How do your parents react to this? Because this is not the life they wanted for you.

No. You know, they were hurt. My father was hurt. He didn't want to see me go to prison. But like I said, he's got to get up at 4 in the morning. The poor guy, he's working hard. And, you know, I'm going to be living, going to prison with no worries and nothing. And he's got to get up every day, 4 o'clock, work till 6, work his ass off, come home, tired.

you know so um he's got his own problems with that which problems i mean but you know work and um yeah they were they weren't happy that i was going to prison i had a lot of support i mean i had you know huge family lots of friends um all huge thing of support you know i would have visits every week um tons of tons of letters coming in and um big parties when i would come home so yeah it was um my parents you know because I did so well inside there that was made it easier on I know on them. How do you think that first prison sentence shaped you? The best. It was the greatest.

So I had to do a mandatory year because of the gun. And it was the best year for me. And meaning that it got me, like you said earlier, my parents weren't poor. I wasn't poor growing up, which was bad for me because, you know, I didn't have to do anything. I needed money. My mother gave me money. She'd do my clothes. There was food on the table.

I didn't have no worries, no pressures, no nothing, right? And so now I go to prison, and it's a serious state prison where my first cellie was a guy doing natural life without parole. Can I bring it out. So I go from, you know, I'm a 20-year-old kid, and, you know, I look 15 years old. I looked younger than what I was. And I wasn't a big guy, but I was, you know, capable. of the most violence that you could think of. So when I went in there, I just, the Italians, back in, and this was 1990, the Italians ran

the Italians, in Massachusetts, we had a big, heavily population of Irish and Italians. And they pretty much ran the prison because they had a lot of the guards. You know, a lot of them were, you know, Irish and Italian, and they were bringing in anything that we wanted. So my first year there, it was like as soon as I got in, we were eating Italian food right on the, first of all, the inmate comes up to me. This Bobby Giodoni out of East Boston, he says, you Anthony? He said, yeah. And I was with all the old gangsters back then, Ronnie Cacesso, Joe de Horace, you know, a bunch of, like I said, Irish gangsters, Italian gangsters.

And they were running everything. I go, you, Anthony, yeah, you're coming to East. No, this is when I moved to East up. in Concord. He goes, you Antenegro, yeah, he goes, grab your stuff, pack it up, you know, come down here with us. He's an inmate.

He's telling me to pack up my stuff. I go downstairs, the whole tear was all Irish and Italians. And there was no racial, conflicts there, you know. Blacks, you know, I had black friends, Spanish, I was on the Spanish softball team. There was none of that racial division

where you would see in other states. You know, there was just, we had a, because, and I think because we had, such a high population of Irish and Italians in the state prison system. And like I said, if you wanted dry, don't do drugs, but if you wanted them, they were there. Girls, you could have women at that time.

We had an Irish club and Italian club. Every month, you could have the outside, your outside people come in and eat inside the prison with you. And they bring in the outside food. And so the Irish could do it once a month. They would invite all the Italians. Italians do it once a month bite all the Irish. So we had like, you know, 60 guys, you know, whatever.

our families. It was like a huge party twice a month there. And so anyways, in the meantime, I have to like be, have my own discipline now in prison. I have to, you know, fend for myself. No more, you know, I have to get my own clothes to make sure my clothes are washed. My, I have to buy my own food to commissary. I have to, you know, make sure I keep a solid reputation in there and, you know, which I did. And so, and then with that, I met a lot of connections. That's why I say it was the best. I made a lot of, I got educated with the streets and I made a lot of connections with Boston guys, you know, all throughout Worcester, Boston, Charlestown, in those areas. And the main thing that I've learned during that year was the marijuana

business. I learned the laws of it, you know, connections for that. And Massachusetts, if you got caught with 50 pounds or under, it was a misdemeanor. So you're in district court. You're not going to go to prison. You're probably going to get probation for your, you know, a bust under 50 pounds. And, you know, because they were after at that time, all the, the cocaine, the crack was getting big now. 1990 was getting big, all that type of stuff. So, so I got marijuana connections and the educated on selling marijuana. And so that was huge for me. You know, that part right there was why I say it was the best year. The connections, the education of how to make money, and the connections I made through the organized crime circles was huge. And like I said, I got out in 91 and I hit the streets

running. Now, while you're in prison and before in 1991, you weren't directly involved with organized crime. You were just in their circles. No. So in our area, in Springfield area, you couldn't help. If you're a town and you're in trouble like me, you're going to be, and we hung around down the south end. That was where their headquarters was, all the gangster. is hung around down there. So you're in their circles no matter what. But as far as me making my own money, yes, prior to going to prison, I messed around with some coke, small level, you know, cocaine, you know, half kilo, break it into the ounces

and sell, you know, ounces, a quarter ounce, things like that, you know, this is prior to me going to stay prison. And, you know, we were involved. I was a huge gambler my whole life, huge. So I was always involved in the sports business. you know, the casino type games. I was going to casinos since I've been 15 years old, Atlantic City, with fake IDs. And so, yeah, I was around in those type of circles prior to me going to prison in 1990.

But not officially on record with, you know, the mafia. But they, you might as well just say it wasn't official, but yeah, we were around them. know, after doing time, you learn real fast what a scam looks like. In prison, scams are everywhere, from guys selling exclusive ramen recipes to people betting on fantasy football without any actual football. But the craziest scams I see today, they're happening online, fake deals, fake pages, people trying to get your info. And even when I got home, I had friends sending money to people they didn't even know because the deal was too good to be true. That's why I like using Cash App because I actually feel like my money isn't out there floating around unprotected.

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I got, so officially I got involved with them. I was only 22 years old, 21, 22 was right when I got out of prison in 1991. Al Bruno came to my house and put me on record with the, with the Springfield faction of the Genevese crime family. So, yeah, age doesn't mean anything. Like if he approached me earlier, say in the 80s, which, you know, I was around him in the 80s. It was just never official. But once they know that you, see, to be around officially, once they know that you're capable to make money or are making money, that's when they want you around them officially. So they can grab, now you can, they can grab a piece.

They want to, they want to be around you. So, okay, if you're going to start loan charker, or if you're going to start, you know, in the sports business, I'm going to put. drawing record with us and you're going to be with us because I want to make money with you. And they got, you know, young kids, that's where the money is. The young kids coming up got all, you know, connections to go out and make more money and keep, you know, keep the money coming in. And that's just one. And he's got dozens of them. So do you think this is a misconception with how TV and movies have portrayed the mafia? As far as what? The kids or the youngness to it.

I mean, we don't see in really TV or movies what you're describing. Well, yeah, depending on how, what you're saying is how young in movies, but like if you go back to the, you know, in the 50s and 60s, I mean, you would see just like the gangs today, they're 13 years old. Yeah, you would see them coming out at 12, 13, 14 years old. It's just today it's more, you know, when we were growing up, it's more modernized and you would wait until, like I said,

they see the mafia sits back and watches and they see who's capable, which guy's capable of a violent act which guy's capable of of making money you know he's he's he's kid is you know he's in college and he's got um he's doing a sports book and he's got a hundred guys betting with him it's big money so you know but he's not capable of violence but so what you still he's in a you bring him in you know you bring him around as an associate he's an associate and uh and now you you know he's with you he's in your crew he's making him money with you. The most dangerous is when they can do them both. Because they watch this kid. And, you know, that's pretty much what I was. And most of my crew that I brought around, I made

millionaires out of my crew. All of them, you know, became millionaires. And the one thing about us was we all could make money and we are all dangerous at the same time. That's what makes you dangerous, the most dangerous on the streets, is when you can do both when you're able to, because money is the power. I don't care what anyone says money, you might not be able to do the violence, but with the money, you become powerful and you can get the violence done because of the money. What does put on notice mean? Put on notice. Or put on record, you were describing. Oh, yeah. Put on record is so now Al Bruno put me on record with the Springfield faction of the Genevieve's crime film. He was a

soldier. He has to go to his boss, get the okay. And, he goes to his boss and says he wants me to go on record with them. The boss gives them the okay. And what it means is now I'm on record, you know, and especially back in the day, it meant a lot because now you're just like, you're not a made guy, but you've got the protection and the power of the mafia now. You're like one of them, even though you're not made. You know, you're a 10-minute ceremony from away once you get proposed.

So on rec, and now you have to follow the rules. So when you're on record now, they tell you the rules of what you, you got to go by what they got to go by. You know, they don't want you selling drugs and, you know, you put on record everything that you do. So that business, so if I want to open up a legitimate restaurant, I still want to put it on record with the family because in case somebody goes in there to try to shake down that restaurant, it's known now that that restaurant is protected by the, the family. So you're put on record, what's your mindset at that time? Do you have a big ego, a big head?

Are you walking? Like, what do you look like? What are you wearing? Yeah. So I'm, yeah, your mind, it's a very intoxicating, powerful feeling. When they tell, like, Bruno used to always say, you're with us now.

The fucking Pope can't touch you. You know, you go anywhere, anywhere. You know, and it was like, but that's how it was back then. I mean, the mafia had so much power. It ain't nothing like that today. But back then, you're a young kid. If you knew what the mafia was, you say you were born in 95.

Like, if you knew what, so you have no clue what, like, the mafia was and the power that they had in the history up until, you know, I would say. I mean, they still exist in New York. Boston's got a faction. Philly's got a small faction. But they're not as powerful as they once were. not even a fraction. And so, you know, when they say you were part of that back then, everybody wanted to be a part of it.

Like I said, if you were Italian, if you were, you know, even the blacks and the Spanish wanted to be around the Italian gangsters back then, you know, and be a part of that, that, you know, the gangs blew up, started blowing up around that time in the 90s and everything. But, you know, on the East Coast and things like that. But it was the presence of the mafia was just, huge. And so when you're part of that, yeah, it's like your ego, you know, you feel like, you know, you can't be touched. You go to play. Now, if you're a real deal, you're still got to be

the real deal. Like, there's a lot of phonies and fakes that, you know, they get that and they go, they go around and feeling that. But sooner or later, they get exposed as to who they are. Did you see yourself becoming a leader when you first came on board? Yeah, I was always like a leader in life. Like, when we played football, I was the quarterback. when we did our rackets amongst us kids, you know, before the mafia, I was always the one putting things together, like in the marijuana business. I put it together. I was in charge.

I gave the splits to who they had to go to. Same thing with the loan shark and same thing with the sports gambling. I put everything together. So I didn't think of myself as better and being like I was just boss material mentally, my own boss. I just, that's just how I am. I hate taking orders. I hate authority. someone telling me what to do.

So that's just in me. So with that being in me, I'm never going to be a one to take orders or not be a boss. Now, in the mafia, of course, you have to start off like that. But even though I'm telling you, the mafia was so dangerous, I still did my own thing. And I'm lucky, you know, I should have gotten killed. But I just don't like, I'd never like taking orders.

So if they found out you were doing your own thing, you would have been killed? Yeah, like you're not supposed to sell drugs. I sold millions, I made millions and millions of dollars in the marijuana business without them knowing, without giving them a piece. So I went on record, like I said in 1991, I sold more marijuana. I was one of the largest marijuana distributors in all the Connecticut masks, you know, these areas. And this was the whole time I was on record with the Genovese family. So I finally got arrested in 1996.

They raided my house. They caught me with 40 pounds of marijuana and some ammunition. It was a misdemeanor charge. They couldn't indict me to Superior Court because it was under 50 pounds. And so, you know, fast forward, 1998, I end up beating the case. So that's just one example.

Then you're supposed to put down who you give the money to, the loan shark money on the streets. You know, you put out $10,000 to charge a guy, three points, gives you $300 a week, things like that. We had $400,000 on the street without telling the mafia nothing. It was our money. my money, but my partners as well. So that's another thing that, you know, they would, you know, not kill you, but definitely

beating material. The pot definitely could have got killed. In fact, Bruno wanted to kill me. Don't forget, I was on record with the, with the mafia when I got caught with the marijuana. And Bruno threatened to kill me, told my friend he was going to kill me. He was going to leave me dead in front of my steps and all this because he was, he could have been implicated because I'm on record with him. So they're probably thinking, his.

His bosses are probably thinking that he was making money with me. You know, and if they knew what kind of money that I was making, you know, they would have definitely wanted to kill me. How did it go under the radar if you were such a big seller? So I would deny it. I don't think I went. Well, so back then, marijuana wasn't, was considered like nobody thought you could make money. Nobody knew the marijuana business in 1990s, early 90s.

Everybody was in the Coke business. and then there was some that were in the heroin business, and then there was the crack business. But nobody thought there was money in the marijuana business. So when they hear about marijuana, it's like, oh, it's like marijuana. And then they're thinking like, well, he's in a marijuana business. What could he be selling? They didn't know I was selling hundreds of pounds a week.

You know what I mean? They didn't know I had it covered from. I was selling it up near Albany all the way up into Connecticut. I was actually selling to my connections back in Boston that I started buying from them. I was now selling to them. I was selling to New York. I would buy from New York. I mean, I had it up and down from the lowest end to the highest end.

New York, I would sell all my high end to. My area I would sell, you know, the low ends, you know, the commercial bottom and bottom grade. So they didn't know what I was involved. And then when they did find out, like I did get questioned about it, you know, I had one boss tell me, they used to call me Bingy, they used to say, if I find out, you're fucking around and uh with this drug business i'm going to chop you in half i mean i've gotten threatened like that before um and i would just say go get the person and bring them in front of me who's telling you

this who's saying that i'm in the drug business go get them and bring them in front of me and nobody would come forward and confront me and but they knew they just couldn't prove it and they're not just going to go out of uh you know um someone saying it but when i got caught and they brated my house now they knew i got caught with it i mean and i still denied it I said it's some, I got set up. Somebody told me to hold a box that was marijuana in it. I don't know what was in it, but they knew I was selling the marijuana. Now, you were mentioning loan shark and can you break down how that actually works?

Yeah. So when we were young, this was started in like, I think 1990, 89, 90, 91 right there. So we had a loan shark is a guy that loans out money. They call them a loan shark. And so we would go to this guy. who was a very vicious guy in the Springfield area, and we would borrow the money at two points. So if you borrow $1,000, you pay $20 a week.

That's two points. And so we would put it out at three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten points. So we would take the 20 and then charge, say, 50. We'd make 30. Now, it doesn't seem like a lot, but when you got $100,000 out, you're giving that guy to, and say you're averaging five. You're making $5. So you're making $3,000 a week with someone else.

his money. Okay, so that's how we had ended up having like 400,000 without he, and he was doing it too without the mafia, not knowing, the local mafia. And like I said, so people think it's like Springfield's a small city, which it is a small city, but like Connecticut, it's a vast area of land. Like Connecticut itself is a, it's a huge area land-wise. It's not one major city, but if you go down, you know, from Stanford to Greenwich to Stanford to Bridgeport to Danbury to New Haven to you know and you keep going Hartford and right it's like there's a lot of cities in between so there's a lot of of business that you can conduct out there without it getting back and hitting the mafia ears when it does hit their ears and then they come and they want a piece of it and but they don't know to the extent of

what you got and the reason how it would come to surface is with this particular own shark his name was Albert, that's the one we owed the 400,000 to. He wasn't given nothing to the mafia. And what happens is he's a vicious guy and somebody can't pay. So he's going to threaten them and hurt them. The kid that he's going to threaten and hurt is scared. Who does he go to? He's either going to go to the cops.

He's either going to go to the mafia guys for help or he's going to go on the lamb and take off or he's going to get a gun and try to kill him, you know. you know and what happens in most cases they go to the mafia guys and they say listen this guy albert you know is he working with you um he's looking to kill me i own 20 000 i can't pay no more they don't know about it now they go to albert they're going to kill albert and then next thing you know but albert's a crazy guy too so you know he's just not going to let him you know kill him and this and that and blah blah so that's how we ended up getting 400 000 on the street without the mom and we gave money to everybody back then i mean we were giving it away like you were giving

candy to a baby. Like this guy owed us $30,000. He wanted 10 more. Yeah, here's another 10. Now the points don't go to the actual payment. Like say you're paying $200 a week. That doesn't go towards the principal. So it doesn't go to the principal, but you can make a loan where it does. So you can, but in our loans, it never went to the principal. So it's like a pawn shop kind of, but just in a faster basis? No, it's not like a pawn because this money doesn't go down ever. If I give you $10,000 and you're paying me, say, $300 a week, you paid me $15,600 at the end of the year. You still owe me $10,000.

So it's an infinite return on your money, number one. I just made 150% on my money in a year. And now I got all my money back. I gave you 10. You gave me $15, but you still owe me $300 a week on that $10. Until they physically say here's $10. They could say here's five. Now they only owe you $150.

But, you know, they know what they're getting into. If I tell you that's how it works, you know, I'm not twisting your arm. You want the money or not, right? So, but it's an insane amount of, you know, it's the same thing that the bankers are doing to the, you know, the world. You know, they call it it's usury, but, you know, that's the same exact thing, smaller percentages. Or the legal way now is the cash advances, the MCAs with the business cash advances. Yeah, well, you can, it's not illegal to do it. Like, um, usually it's only illegal when you go over like every state, like has a, uh, an interest that you can charge.

I can give you money legally and charge you an interest. But if I go over the legal rate, that's how it becomes a crime. And then if I threaten you and I don't, you don't pay me the money and I threaten you, that's how it becomes a major crime. And that's how these guys go away for, you know, 10 years and 15 years because of the violence. Do you think threatening back then work to get paid? Yeah, because of who you were and what you represented. If I'm a guy that's known for shooting people and I come to you and say, listen, if you don't have my money tomorrow, I'm going to shoot you.

You don't think you're going to be worried that I'm a shooter and I'm going to shoot you? Yeah, I guess if you have the history of actually shooting. And some people, you know, push it. But if, you know, I never had to hurt somebody over money. One person ever over money did I have to hurt. You know, if you know how to run your businesses, it's your fault if you let somebody overboard you. And then a second thing is, like I just said, say I give you $15,000. You paid me for a year, two years.

You gave me $30,000 back on $10, right? And you still owe me 10, right? Now you come to me and you say your wife was pregnant. You got two other kids, this and that. And, you know, can I give you a break? And I say, fuck you, Ian, no, you're going to pay me or I'll split your head. one guy said that to the guy and he says I don't give a fuck I got the whole dog

I want my money every week that's the stupidity you know what I'm saying that's the greed you know that's the stupidity of it all because I could have $10 million put away and a situation like that

and I risk it all because your wife is pregnant and you can't pay a couple weeks you know so you have to you what you know you have to be know your business and who you're not going to let a guy bet you sports.

You know, if the guy's a millionaire and he's making, you know, a million dollars a year, give him a $100,000 credit line. Give him a $500,000. Who cares? Let him bet $5,000 a game. He's got the money. But if a guy's making $1,500 a week and he's got three kids and he's got bills to pay, how are you going to let him bet a thousand a game?

So when the guy blows $20,000 and he doesn't have it, whose fault is it? You know, it's your own fault. So don't blame the guy. for, you know, whatever. So you have to manage your businesses the right way, and they were great businesses. They were, the organized crime rackets were the best rackets that they were,

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So that happened pretty much back in the day. I can only speak for our territories, Connecticut and Massachusetts, Western and Central Mass, right? We never extorted up until Al Bruno became boss in 2001. We never went to businesses and told them they had to pay. There's a way to do it that's even worse than extortion. them, going partners with them.

And they will go partners with you. But people don't like to be told that they have to pay you money every week, especially guys that have money. They don't like to be told like, you know, they're worth $30 million. You could go to that guy and tell him, listen, when we, I've done this dozens of times, basketball Hall of Fame is in Springfield. We go to this guy. We want to put a bar restaurant in the Hall of Fame.

Now, the NBA has a big say in who goes in there because it's the Hall of Fame. You know, so, and this guy that was in it was an organized crime, a strip club owner, right? Multiple strip clubs. But he was organized crime, our partner, right, in the Springfield area. So they want to let us. But this guy was going to come up with $2 million. They asked him, how are you going to finance? He said, self-finance.

He says, he was going to come up with the $2 million to make us partner. and he was going to put up the $2 million cash for himself, himself. That's how you attack people. That's how you go into business. That's how you become a powerful organization, things like that. When Bruno took over his boss, we started these extortions, and that's when you said, innocent, you know, if a sports guy on a street, loan shark on the street, that's one thing. They're not innocent.

Those are street rackets that belong to the mafia. Those are mafia rackets. Those guys have to pay. Yes, you can call it extortion, rent, however you want to contribute. But when you go to a business is, that's what Bruno started doing. He got permission to go from New York. I was at the meeting to shake down a couple of guys, the two Jimmy's in our area, Jimmy Santonello and Jimmy Fiore for $500 a week.

So that's how it started. And then it ballooned into $50,000 a month we are getting from shakedowns. And that does, that's all it does is bring in heat. from the people are complaining. They go to law enforcement, which they did. We got big investigations going on us now, which they did. People don't like to pay. And, you know, next thing you know,

you went from a nice, quiet, lucrative, low radar, living with millions of dollars coming into now, you're like the while while west. And it's all because of two guys in New York, Artie Nigro, the boss that took over, and John Bologna, the informant that Artie let around him. When they came up and Bruno took over. Bruno has a part to play in it too, but Bruno was looking to be like a Nicky Scarfo. You know, have everyone pay rent, you know, the boss affiliate there.

He wanted everyone to be like a Nicky Scarfo, everyone, you know, to pay and pay and pay. And he did. He split it up with all of us. But that's what brings in the heat from law enforcement. So, oh yeah, go on. No, go ahead. That's what brings in, you know, it's not, I don't like it. I don't, I'm not an extortionist.

I'm a guy that of my whole life, I didn't have to be. I mean, millions on the street. You go to a guy with money, you make money. Nobody wants to be told. I don't care if it's $300 a week. It's insulting to the guy. Go into business with him. But that was the mentality that these two guys from New York and Bruno had at the time.

So 1996, you beat that weed case. Then what happens? You're probably I was shelved Bruno wanted to kill me Bruno wanted to kill me I was shelved meaning I was banished

from the mafia which is the best thing that happened to me I made millions of dollars in those I was banished from 96 to 98 Bruno wanted to kill me I made more connections

in the mafia more marijuana connections and made millions of dollars without with not being in the mafia see I didn't need the mafia I had a big cruel guy's my friends not my subordinates or whatever.

There were connections that I made throughout, just like I'm making now today, legitimate connections. And I made more money in those two years, 96 to 98, with no heat because now I'm not hanging around the Springfield mobsters. And so what when shelf means is you can't, you know, everyone around the mafia is not supposed to hang around with me. But they all did anyways. We went out of town.

I was always in Boston, New York, Rhode Island. Connecticut. And so I had in that time I had the biggest nightclub in Connecticut, Club Blue in Hartford. And so I was, I had restaurants. I had two restaurants in Connecticut. I had another bar restaurant in Westfield. I had another huge one down at the Cape. And this is all while I'm shelved from the mafia. So Bruno comes out in 98 because Bruno had a, um, uh, uh, indictment that He had to go away for like 15 months. So he's coming out of prison around 98. And I get my case thrown out of court in 98.

The informant on my case was a rogue informant. He was selling large amounts of cocaine. They caught him twice. So he was an informant for the local narcotics task force. But he got arrested twice by the state and once by like the DEA, separate a case. So he was an informer for the locals, but then these other guys investigating drugs arrested him twice. Both times they carried like 20, 30 years sentence. He got caught with like a kilo and a gun, both times.

So they, you know, we knew who my, and I ended up, you know, because we were going to kill that kid. That I found out who my informer was. We were going to kill him. But before that, I robbed them for like close to 100,000 and of, uh, of, uh, of money and everything. The informant on my case in that 96 case, I ended up taking him. Because when I got arrested in 96,

he set me up. He owed me. So I was selling him marijuana, right? And he owed me, let's just say like 30, 40, because I fronted all my marijuana. So, you know, I had hundreds of thousands on the street owed to me.

But I got to front it too. So it's like I front it, you know, and this and that. So this kid owes me like 40,000. And so I knew somebody set me up. I didn't know for sure who. And when I finally find, you know, long story, I'm going to make it quick, but I find out it's this guy that this, I don't know if Iranian guy, whatever he was, but he's the

one that set me up. And they try to be cute when they put in the time frame, someone that was at, you know, because he wanted to switch. They had 10 pounds. And he said, can you switch these out for me? And I happened to have it at my house. So I switched out to 10 pounds. Anyways, they raided my house the next day.

That's when they call me. When I find out this is that, don't forget this. Oh, so he owes me like around $40,000. Plus he owes me another $20,000. I was juicing a loan shark. So I'm thinking like, fuck, I can't. I don't want to kill this guy. He owes me all this money.

So I got to get my money back first. So I'm talking with this guy knowing that he set me up. And I said, I get my money back from him. I go, I need my money. I go, I got to pay lawyers. I go, I need that $40,000 quick. And then I also need the 20 that I let you, you know, now he wants to do everything he can to help me.

he knows he set me up. I go, see if you can find out who set me up, who did this, who did that. He goes, yeah, I have a connection that I could find out. This is how stupid this kid is. He's got a connection that he's the guy that set me up, but he's got a connection. Anyways, I get all my money on the street off him that he owed me. And then I said, listen, I'm still going to, he used to buy like 30 pounds at a time. So I said, I could still get you to marijuana, but you have to come up with the money up front for me to get it. So he's trying to do every, he's trying to set me up again. So I don't know if it was the cop's money that I took. I'm assuming it is because he ends up coming up with like, I want to say was between

70 and 100,000. Let's just say that. Maybe it was 70. I don't remember. But I'm going to sell him a certain amount of marijuana. So we're going to meet. But when we're going to meet, I switch cars. I take my sister's car.

And he's driving in a white Cadillac. And so I'm supposed to have the marijuana tell him where the marijuana is. So he drives by. He doesn't know I'm in the car at this corner store. He drives by me. And then he drives by me this way. He's looking for my truck. I'm not in my truck.

So I go like this and he sees me and I go follow me. So as he follows me, he's got the undercover cops following him. So it's him following me. Cops following him, but they don't know that it's me in the front car. So when I pull up to this light, this cop undercover that was at my house like three days before, you know, when they raided me, the same cop car. is beeping a horn and he beeps and he goes and I see him in the rear of your mirror and he beeps he goes like this and he says and he must have went like this he's in front of me so the cop

pretended he was waving to somebody like that right and goes he takes a left where you can't take a left there was no left turn so anyways I have the guy follow me down this street down that street one way one way this way that way we pull into this restaurant down the south of the Springfield I go you got the money he goes yeah give it to me I take it's in a brown bag I go the marijuana will be in the behind the dumpster on plum tree road at the dairy mart at nine o'clock boom i take off boom boom boom boom i go i go to my friend johnny's packet store i say or hold this and now i go home nine 10 comes nine 15 back then was the beepers i'm getting bebed i'm getting bebed i'm getting beat he goes hey and then uh he calls me and he says uh hey he goes uh he says uh hey he says

uh hey he says uh hey he says uh he goes uh he goes uh i don't know what you're talking about and i hang up the phone then he comes to my house and he goes hey he goes what happened he goes uh i don't there was nothing there and I'm mouthing I go on you know and then he he got that look that he acknowledged that he knew that I knew and that what I did and that I knew so then afterwards we were going to kill him still and we set up a meeting to do that and at this meeting it was a perfect spot in the back of this old parking lot and as sure enough before him he was supposed to come there and uh undercar car pulled in, then he came, then another undercover car came in. And so that's when we just,

you know, said, put him out there and, and that was it. Wouldn't it been risky to kill someone that was already that place? Yeah, we were young and risky risk takers, you know, so we were a wild bunch back then. So, uh, 1999 happens when Al Bruno gets out of prison. Right. And then you're back in. So he, he summons me to come down to his restaurant. He goes, what happened with the case? I said, I beat it. And, you know, I still denied that it was my weed and this and that. And so he says, all right, so you want to, now he's under work release. So he goes to his restaurant, Caramea down the South and then he's got to go back to the prison at night, you know.

So he says, you want to come back around. You want to come back around me and this and that. I said, sure. And he says, you all done selling the drugs? And I said, sure. and he says, all right, so you know, he wanted to give me 25% for the sports and 25% for the loan sharking and whatever else. I go, Bruno, if I'm coming back, I'm going to go 50-50 with you.

Because I never got along with his son, Victor, back then. His son was always, his son was the main one that was always going beefing on me, telling him I'm in the marijuana business. And, you know, I'm doing this. We're always fighting in this and always in trouble over here. We shot this guy over here. He was the one going back. So he goes, you all. done with all that shit. I said, yeah. Anyways, I say, I want to, if I come back, I want 50%.

He goes, you want 50%. I said, yeah. I go, if it's me and you, you know, meanwhile, Bruno had 100 other partners who I'm saying me and him in our business, what I get in the sports and the loan shark. And of course, I want 50-50. So that's how I ended up coming back around in 98. And at that point, are you a made man yet or not yet? No, no. How old are you? You're like 26. So I was, at this time, I'm 1998. I'm 30. And now I was proposed going back. I got proposed in 1990 because I went back to prison from 92 to 93 after I got out.

I went back twice for more assault and batteries with dangerous weapons. You know, so both times I beat the case. So 93 I get out. I'm still on parole. And I got proposed to be a made member with the general. a V's family. Like, you know, how we said he put me on record. Now, this time he proposed me. Proposed means that's one more step ahead. That means the next time they're going to make someone, you're a proposed member. If you get, if they okay you, you're going to get made. But it also means

back then, if violence had to happen and someone had to get shot, you have to take part of that now. And you can't refuse. Because now once you get to that level and you're proposed and you refuse, they'll kill you. So, um, so I was proposed in like I said, 93. I get arrested with a pot. I'm not proposed no more. Now in 1998, I get proposed again. Not that right away. In 99, I get proposed. Um, there was two other bosses at the time. Um, Albert Babi Shebeli was a boss when in 1998. And he was, um, turning the power over to Anthony DeLabor who was going to succeed Albert Chabelli as boss. So Bruno wasn't going to be boss at all. So this is like 1999 now.

And how come he wasn't going to be boss and then ended up becoming boss? So in 2000, there was a big mafia arrest in Springfield. They arrested like 9, 10 guys, you know, all one made guy and, no, three made guys, mob associates, and Babi Shebeli, who was the boss and Anthony DeLabel, who was going to become boss because Babu was old. He was stepping aside, giving the brain to Anthony. Anthony was a lot younger. He was Bruno's age. He was in his 50s. So, but they get arrested in this racketeering case. So now they're under indictment.

And they're going to go to prison. You know, it took three years, but now they got arrested in 2000. 2001 comes. Now they're going to, you know, they're under indictment. They can't move around good. They got a court case. They can't. So, you know, so they need somebody to hands out. on run the faction and you know Bruno was the next in line so that's how Bruno ends up New York okays Bruno to become the the boss of the Springfield faction Connecticut faction of the Genevice crime family how long does a proposal take to become a maidman like how long are you in limbo for you could take forever you might not even get it just because your proposed don't mean you know like what me I was proposed in 93 and then I fucked up and I'm

taken off the list or you could be proposed and you know the guys that proposed you end up going to prison and the new regime comes in and they don't they don't want you so you know things like that could happen um yeah just you know because you're proposed don't mean you're officially going to get it but you're on your way you're close but in your case you're proposed in 99 again I was proposed a 99 right and when do you officially become a maid man oh three oh wow it took four years so what happens in between 99 and oh my god and oh three So everything. So Bruno becomes boss in 01.

Now I'm with Bruno. Bruno brings me around. So there's these two guys that are proposed under Babas Shebeli and Anthony DeLabo. It's Reno Saravalo and Joey Bazil. So they're proposed to get made because, you know, Babba was looking to build up his base because they were worried like Bruno was going to take over and power and take away from his family's rackets. They had, you know, huge rackets and money. So they brought, Bab was older.

He wants to protect his family. He's trying to, you know, he brought, he made this guy Emilio Fusco to be made. He was an Italian immigrant from Italy. Babin made him. He hated Bruno. So he's trying to bring in everybody that doesn't like Bruno to protect his family. Even though it's like one family, it's still, you know, um, treacherous, you know. So, um,

In 2000, so now Bruno becomes boss. I'm getting very close with Bruno. And so now he puts me on the list with New York too, because it's got to get approved by New York. So there's three of us now that are going to get made in our Springfield immediate. And then there's another like five guys in the Connecticut area that are going to get strained out with Bruno. So there's going to be like, I think there was going to be like eight total that we're going to, Bruno was going to make and we're going to be under Bruno.

So that's what's going on in 01. O one, I go down to New York. I was there when Bruno became boss. Then they came up to Springfield. They had the big ceremony, not a ceremony, but to tell him he's the official boss. And Bruno was like so excited about it. It was like, you know, you being, you know, having the birth of your first born or, you know, the most unbelievable thing that could happen to you in life was when they told him he was the boss of the

family. I was at the dinner at Springfield, downtown Springfield at his restaurant when that happened. And he was so excited. You know, you could just see it. You know, he was kind of like so excited. Like he was like not shaken, but, you know, just overwhelmed, you know, just so happy. You know, when, you know, just so thrilled. And the bosses that were up from New York at that time were Pat DeLuca, Ari Nehro, and they go, you guys listen to him now. He's the boss. And there was a few of us. I'm not made at this time. I'm just, you know, going to get made. And so now Bruno takes over.

The extortions start, and they start getting big. And that's when Artie Niagara is just a soldier now. Artie Niagara in New York is just a soldier. And they're using a panel, Vincent de Chins in prison, quiet Dom's under lockup. All the other top bosses are under some sort of either in prison or bail or some sort of thing like this. or going, you know, getting ready to go to jail. Ornie Muscarella, he was the boss, Mario Gigante's on the street, Larry Dentico, these guys are all running the family.

Artie Niagara is just a soldier. Now, I start going down to New York all the time. I start, New York starts coming up here. I meet this guy, John Blonio. First time I meet him, I don't like him. He's got a beard. He's got sunglasses, dark hair. He looks.

You know your first instinct on somebody? I just had a very bad vibe from the guy. Anyways, they want, the bosses in New York want to put me with John Bologna to go collect the debt that that was owed to New York from a guy in New Haven, Connecticut. So we go to the scrap metal yard, me, Bologna, I think Joey Bazzo was there. And we meet with this guy and we get the money to go pay New York. So because of that, you know, now I'm working with this John Bologna. And now he comes up at that point from 01, every single week he's coming up. And he's coming up with the bullshit that he's got to mess.

from them to tell Bruno. So every week he's coming up to Springfield. He's having dinner. He's bringing up a few, you know, cool guys from the New York crews, you know, this and that young kids and which we didn't care about any of them, you know, but he's coming up. And so now every week I'm meeting them. And so I'm end up taking them out.

You know, we go to Bruno's to eat, but then we go to the strip clubs and the bars. And we're hanging out in Springfield, Connecticut. I had my club at the time in Connecticut Blue. we're hanging out there. So he's coming up every week. Now, going forward, Bruno is still the boss. We're going into like 2002.

And Bruno's doing a great job. The extortions are coming up. Money never, ever went down to New York. The mafia bosses in New York never got money from the Springfield bosses. It just never was a case. We had our own rackets. had a multi-million dollar rackets. I mean, all the rackets that we had, and there was dozens and dozens of made guys throughout Connecticut and Massachusetts with other families and everything,

and they were all multi-millionaires. So no money ever went down there. Bruno starts doing the extortion. We're doing now 50,000 a month. He starts sending like 12, 15,000 a month to New York, all because at this time, Artie Niagara becomes a boss in New York. Bruno doesn't know this. okay and this is where everything goes bad right around um end of 02ish and the beginning of 03 and that's how everything starts to unfold and when you said i got made in 03 um i start getting closer to the new york bosses and the new york crew of people i'm meeting other bosses without bruno being there like i'm going down meeting these people and so uh one time um I'm in New York and the boss of the Gambinos pulls up and we're on the streets in the Bronx.

And he says, me and Artie get in the car. At this time, I wasn't made. I don't know if I was made at this time. It was around 0.3. I got made in 0.3. But he says, what's J.B. doing here? And Artie, you know, J.B. John Bloney was outside in the streets over there. He says, we chased him.

He's no good. He's an informant. Now, at this time, I put in work where J.B. could put me in jail the rest of my life on the work I did, a shooting in New York City. I believe this was before Bruno's hit, before that hit that. But other multiple murder conspiracies that he could put me in. So he tells me this. I said, Ardy, you know, what's the story with this guy after we got out of car?

What's the story what he said about Bologna being in it for me? He says, I don't pay no mind. They're jealousies around me now. So, you know, that's a big part of the story. So at this time, this guy, John Bloney, he was like the messenger coming back from New York to Springfield, going back and reporting. Now, don't forget,

nobody, Bruno doesn't know. Artie assumes position as boss because Ernie Muscarella, who's a very powerful boss. He's still alive to this day. He's going to prison. He wants Artie to take his place on the panel. The other two bosses, Mario and Larry, don't want Artie there.

He was only a soldier. he doesn't belong there. He shouldn't be there. They wanted, I believe they wanted Pat DeLuca. I'm not sure 100%, but Pat DeLuca's older, you know, more, you know, seasoned at the job and had very good love for the Springfield faction. But Ernie wanted Artie there.

So Artie becomes the boss. Bruno doesn't know. Artie was a greedy, greedy, greedy boss, and he was in a position he shouldn't have been in. He's got John Bologna around him. Now, we just were told by the Gambinos that John Bologna is an informant. But it gets worse than that. When I go back, you know, sometime later, the Connecticut faction of the Patriarcha family,

Rico Petrillo and Anthony Beaver Ascencia, I have a meeting with them. They're both captains with the Patriarcha family. They're both from Connecticut. And they both tell me that the guy that comes up with the beard, which is John Bologna, is an informant. be careful with that guy. They had some good information, right? And so that's two that had this.

And, you know, fast forward, I went down to Artie again with this information and asked to clip Bologna, you know, send him up. You'll never see him again. You know, this is a second people, because this is a guy that could give me life in prison. He knows enough that can get me the rest of my life in prison, you know. So it's not a good feeling, you know. And so Artie protect. him already never sent them back up after i said that already never sent them back up in our area to see us without him being present with him so 2003 is coming and bruno's falling out

a line why because they're looking to take over our area already with john bologna going back with the messages you know they're looking to get rid of bruno not kill him they're looking to get rid of bruno where they can take him down strip him of his rank they want to take him as a boss, which is, he's a boss of the Springfield, Connecticut faction. You know, I always say, people always say, why do you say boss? Because that's what he is. He's a boss. You know, he's a captain overall in the family. But when you, when you Google him and you read newspaper articles, what does say? He was a boss. So, um, so they're trying to strip Bruno of his rank because they want to take over all the rackets. Like I said, we had an empire within an empire. Our faction, the Springfield

faction, Connecticut. My crew alone, we're all multi-millionaires. Just my crew. And, you know, you're talking dozens and dozens of guys everywhere. So they wanted full access. So who's the boss of the, of the faction in New York? Now it's already. He's a greedy boss. He's got this low life around him who's an informant, giving them all information, and they're poisoned in the mind on Bruno. So he's poisoned in the mind. Now, Bruno had a lot of enemies, and I wasn't one of them. You know, I wasn't a Bruno hater, but Bruno had a lot of haters. Everyone hated Bruno when it came to the organized crime guys. The Emilio Fusco, Felix Trangese, Delabo.

Him and Delabo actually got into a fight. DeLago bit him in the air. So the Pugliano's, all the made guys, because Bruno was, you know, just not liked amongst them. He was liked amongst the public, but the gangsters didn't like him in our area. Now, the outside of our area, you know, Boston gangsters, New York gangsters, yeah, Florida, when we go down there, you get treated good, but our own guy. So they all start knocking him and trying to get him demoted. And it's working. So now what they're, you know, they're saying that he drinks too much, that he's, you know, he's, they're just coming up with excuses that he shouldn't be, boss.

And they're trying to get him demoted. Never killed, though. Never killed. And so what's happening now is I'm going down and getting more power in New York. Like the bosses are calling me down without Bruno by myself. And because they know I had the biggest crew. When the New York guys came up here, like I said, John Bologna, they seen my crew. They seen what I had.

They seen the guys around me. They seen how we conducted ourselves. We were in fights all the time. And I'm talking vicious fights where, you know, and they seen how my crew acted and what we were capable of. And then the amounts of money that we were bringing in, they didn't know for sure about, you know, my exact rackets. Like I was still selling the marijuana.

Nobody got a piece of that. But so more and more they keep bringing me down there. And that's how I end up getting made because Artie wants me to, he's the boss now, like I said. So he wants to make the Joey Bezile and the Reno Cerrovalo, those two guys I told you about that were going to be made under Babbage Chabelli and Anthony DeLabel. But now I'm involved. He wants to make me. So he wants to make the three of us, but he wants to make us down in New York City under him.

You follow me? He wanted to steal you from Springfield. He wanted it from Bruno, right? So instead of Bruno making us up here, he wants the loyalty to come to him where we report to him. So the difference is if you get made in New York City, I'm going to report. to New York City. I don't report to Springfield. Now, even though Springfield's its own faction,

the power base is in New York. So who do you think is going to have all the power? The guy that reports to New York. You know, he's going to be the actual guy with all the power. And so that's what's happening. So now what happens is this treachery is getting really bad now. This John Bologna is out of control. And he's looking to shake down,

even like friends of mine, my partner in the bar business. and I used to sell marijuana with him. He goes, who's that? I go, that's my partner. He goes, tell him to pay you $500 a week. I go, I'm not telling him to pay me $500 a week. I go, that's my friend. He goes, you got no friends.

All your friends are in New York, right? And this is how he would talk. And then I asked him another time, I go, John, I go, you know, you want us shaking down, you know, all these people, you and Artie, you want to shaken down all these people and, and I go, would you do that in New York? And he was from Porteous. Would you do that there? He goes, are you fucking crazy?

I get 30 years. I go, what the fuck you think we're going to get here? But they didn't care. They didn't care. They were going to destroy our area. You follow me? So now I get called down to New York. And Artie wants to see me.

Now, Artie's official boss now. Bruno doesn't know Artie's the boss. I know, but I can't say anything. I'm told to not say anything. They want me to kill a union guy down in New York. the streets. Artie brings me there in John Bologna. They bring me to a place where he comes out at the Bronx and he comes out every, he's a head of the union. He's a labor union boss, you know, one of those guys. And there's some sort of beef going on and blah, blah, but already already wants them dead. He tells

me this is where he parks and boom, have it done. Okay. So, and oh, he says, have Joey and Reno do it with you because those two are going to get made. So he wants the three of us to, you know, and I have a huge crew. I didn't need Joey Reno. I had my other two friends, Freddie and Thai, I had a vast amount of crew of guys that were capable of doing this type of hit. But Joey and Reno, when I went back to them and told him what the boss wanted in New York, they both got scared. Reno, I can understand his thing because he was a construction worker. He had nothing going on in the streets. You know, he was just like a figurehead type of thing.

And he wasn't a bad kid. But Joey was a one that wanted it, you know, always coming around and, you know, acting like. Like, you know, he wanted to get made. And as soon as the order comes and the gun, the pistola comes out, he ran away. And he was going to get killed for that. If everything, if nobody goes to jail and everyone stays out, he's a dead man for that. And you can discuss any street guy that refuses a boss's order. Like I said, once you're on that list and you're proposed and the boss it gives you an order and you don't do it, you're gone.

So he's lucky he's alive. And you can talk all the shit he wants, but he's lucky he's alive for the timing of it all. And so I go to my other two friends, and it was like asking them to go to dinner. Because we grew up, we were always, like I said, violent. Crazy, crazy fights our whole life, violence, even me and Thai. So when I went to prison in young age, Ty Giaz was with me. He was only like 18, and we were causing trouble all throughout state prison. And we got warned if we keep getting in trouble, we're going to get thrown to the max.

And he ended up getting in more trouble and got thrown into the max. And then he beat up guards. and then he went to, you know, the hole and whatever. So I go to them and boom, we get the job done. Long story short, we go down and shoot the union guy nine times on the streets of New York. That was in like April of 2003. And then in August of 03, that's what gets me made.

Artie, the boss in New York says what happened to Joey and Reno. And I said, Joey ran away. And Reno, I just gave him a pass because Reno didn't know who was like the boss. He was working for Felix. You had John Ballone, you're coming up, giving orders from Artie. You had Bruno's still alive telling him he's the boss. And then you got me saying, you know, listen to when Bruno's there, listen to Bruno, when John's there, no, listen to John. And so he was all confused.

So he didn't know what was going on. So he says, tell Joey, Artie was pissed. Artie was going to kill him. He goes, tell Joey, shelved. And we'll deal with him later. And I know he was going to have him clipped. But this episode is brought to you by Netflix. The Four Seasons is back for season.

Season two, starring Tina Fey, Will Forte, Coleman Domingo, Marco Calvani, Carrie Kenny Silver, and Erica Henningson. After a difficult year, your favorite group of friends continues their tradition of vacationing together now with a baby in tow. From the Jersey Shore to upstate New York and Italy, their getaways are sure to take unexpected turns where comedy ensues. Watch the four seasons May 28th, only on Netflix. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which you. means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing.

It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. No one goes to Hank's for spreadsheets. They go for a darn good pizza. Lately though, The shop's been quiet, so Hank decides to bring back the $1 slice. He asks co-pilot in Microsoft Excel to look at his sales and costs. Help him see if he can afford it. Co-pilot shows Hank where the money's going and which little extras make the dollar slice work. Now, Hank says, line out the door.

Hank makes the pizza. Copilot handles the spreadsheets. Learn more at M365 copilot.com slash work. Everything happened bad after that. There was so much, you know. So that's how I ended up getting made. Doesn't it not make sense to bring multiple people, though, to a murder? There's like so many witnesses. So you definitely need help when you kill someone.

And, you know, everyone says do it yourself. You can't really do a murder yourself. It's impossible. It's not impossible. But, you know, I just don't think it's very hard just by yourself. And in this case, with the union guy we shot, So there was Artie that knew. I mean, the bosses in New York knew.

That's why we were loved in New York. You know, my crew, you know, I put us on the map, like I said. They loved us in New York. The fact that we could come from Springfield and shoot a guy nine times on the streets in New York, you know, meant something. So they loved us. But yeah, you had John and Artie. And then, you know, like me, like I'm not going to tell anybody.

Like, they told me to tell Joey and Reno. know. So, but they don't know who we're hitting, when we're hitting, and how we're hitting. So all they know was they wanted us to go on a hit. They don't know who, though. And then you had the two brothers. What were your thoughts about murder back then? I didn't have any thoughts. I just saw an interview like, it didn't, you know, and I'm being honest when I say that people can say it bothers them. It would bother me if I had to kill somebody that didn't deserve it or was innocent, they're getting killed for a lie or,

but we all chose that life to get into it knowing that, you know, you could die on the streets. And so when you kill someone, you could be on the other end of it going for, like even me. Like I participated in murder. Tomorrow I could be killed. That's it.

So I'm dead. Um, so, yeah, it didn't, um, affect me because I know it's part of that life. It's like, and, and I'm being honest when I say to it, it didn't affect me when I killed people when I participated in murder. And I slept beautiful afterwards and people can say they don't believe that, but that's the truth. That's me. I can't speak for any other guy that did that. Now, if I want to come out here and tell you, oh, um, you know, for, you know, I changed my life and it hurts me.

and all that for the cameras and for the this and that. Do I, now, yeah, I'm saying it for the cameras. Now, do I, here's what I will say, regret, do I wish it didn't happen? 100%. Do I wish I never took place in the murders? 100%. That's what I will tell you, 100% honestly,

that I wish the violence didn't happen. But do I lose sleep over it? No. And because the same circumstances, if they killed me, they wouldn't lose sleep over it. The same people that I participated, and wanted to give two shits about me if it was the other way around. Would you have killed that guy if you were in order to do it?

I have no reason that. I didn't know him. I never met the guy. I'm going to the streets and I have to drive two hours to New York to shoot a guy I never met in my life. You know, and so, you know, and take that risk. You know, we're driving down there with silencers. We have bad records, state prison records, numerous arrests, you know, the worst of the worst. If we get caught with those guns, we're getting 20 years.

And then if we get caught in the act of doing that crime, we're getting 100 years. So here we are risking all of that to go to New York to shoot a guy that I don't even know that did nothing to me. And we get away with it and nobody can know about it except for three guys that did it and the bosses in New York and the informant, John Bologna. Tell us what it's like to actually get made. So it's a dream come true for someone in that era. And like I said, if you were a town and you were young and wild, your dream, if you were violent, your dream is to him be a maid guy. So everyone that's in that life back then, today, no, but, you know, back then there was only one, it was like the only one major leagues. The mafia was the major leagues.

Everything else was, I don't care what group of criminals they were. They were beneath the mafia. It ain't like that anymore. and it hasn't been like that for years. But when I was growing up, there was only, there was the major leagues and that was the mafia. So it was the goal to be a made guy. And so being made, but in my case,

everything bad happened after being made. You know, I never needed to be made. I was a multimillionaire prior to being made. Like I said, in the years that I was shelved from the mafia, I made millions of dollars. And the only thing that being made did to me was make me participate in murders, which made the, withdrew the scrutiny of every law enforcement in the region.

I had the New York, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Mass, FBI and state police all down my throat, bugging in everything I drove and phones and cars and restaurants and strip clubs and bars And, you know, so it was just, it brought me nothing but heat. And it didn't bring me anymore. The only thing positive it did for me, networking-wise, if I could have lasted on the streets, I would have made hundreds of millions because in networking, I'm good at that.

And I had, you know, with the interactions now that I'm a made guy, and I'm sitting down with bosses. I said with the Boston Providence, Louis, the bosses in Boston. I was always there. It's only an hour away from Springfield. So I'm going to, everywhere I go, I'm able to sit down and what type of deals, legitimate deals that they got going on, whether it's the construction, the concrete, any type of, and the whole foods type things where you can sell to rent, anything that we had the Costco's, the ATM machines, you know. So that part of networking, it was, it was good.

And that's what they're doing today, the mafia is they're keeping it legit and they're not doing violence anymore. and they're keeping it uh and it's like a it's a you know and that's why they're lasting you know in the bigger city so after you get made what happens so after everything bad happened so i got made in um august uh 11th of uh oh 3 and then i get i'm in a war uh my two friends freddie and tie they hated this uh the mansy family um and the mansy family um and the Manzies were, I was not partners. I had the kid selling, he sold marijuana for me my whole life through the 90s. I got him started.

They came here with nothing. They live like peasants. You know, the family was from it. They got chased out of Italy and there was a war going on. They got chased and they fled here. And the father ended up getting stuck there. The father was a serious guy. Tony was a serious guy.

He was the only one. but they all could make money. So what would you just ask me? What happens after you got made? Oh, yeah. So Freddie and Ty, they, you know, they've been in prison. They're real serious prison. You know, they, Ty, especially been in prison his whole life.

And they see a kid like him, this kid, Joe Manzi, Giuseppe Manzi, making money and acting a part that he doesn't deserve. Like he'll tell you, you know, he can do this. He's all, he's full of shit. You know, he can make money. He's, you know, as far as making money goes, but he's full of shit when it comes to the violence. Yeah, he did this and he did that and he's going to do this. He ain't going to do shit.

And there's multiple tests that always said that. So they hated him. Now, I didn't care because I made money with the kid. I made money with the Manzi's kid. And, but they hated them. They would go around and just harass them. They robbed the cousin for 150,000. I never got a piece of it.

I never, they robbed the Manzi family for the cousin for 150,000 like a marijuana deal. When they told the kid he was going to pay, they brought him to his house, stuck a gun to his head. Ty picked him up, slammed him to the ground. The kid shit his pants, pissed his pants, begged for his life. And the funny part about it is their cousin is married to the Manzi family. So it's like, they're like, it's crazy.

Like the cousin is married. So anyways, they rob. the family. Then they go over to the other kid, Manzi's restaurant. They, they break his windows. Ty goes to his house, smashes his door, telling him to come out. The kid's hiding in his house. He's calling me. What does this kid want with me? What does he want me? Then he has the kid's father, the kid's father, Tony Manzi, from Italy, from Italy, why is it? You're friends are bothering my son. Please, please, please, please watch out from my son. Please, I don't let nothing happen. In the meantime, I already killed and shot and stabbed my two friends. And I'm saying,

They don't like them. I go, it's got nothing to do with me. So everything I'm telling you has got nothing to do with me, they don't like them. It's got nothing to do with me. They robbed a cousin. It's got nothing to do with me. They robbed a cousin for $150,000. They didn't give me a penny.

I didn't want a penny. They were in prison. I'm not going to take a penny for them, but guess who they gave money to at the time? Bruno. They gave Bruno $5,000. And this is after Bruno Slap Thai around. You know, Bruno slapped Tai Gia's around five times, you know, in the car. Boom, boom, boom, boom.

And Ty, let me tell you, and probably one of the most vicious guys you'll ever meet in the world. I'll put him up there in the world. I mean, he's that type. You talk to guys in the federal prison will ask about him, and I'll put him right up there

with anybody as vicious as there is in the world. So, but Ty didn't do anything because of me. I was there. But Ty, I thought he was going to get out of the car and kill Bruno. So because of this, they're abusing this man's, and we're out one night. I'm dressed like in a sports call.

We're having fun. I'm made at the time. And we get a call that the Manzi kid got into a beef with someone that Ty knows. So we go down to the bar. They had left, but they're at this other bar. So now we go to this other bar and we beat and shoot and stab and, you know, Ty stab someone with an ice pack for, you know, we're shooting guys. We shot three guys and we're hitting guys with golf clubs, you know, big, big thing.

We almost get arrested. The cops pull us over. took off with the gun so we didn't get arrested we just pretended you know like oh yeah it was a big fight here and you know we don't know what's going on and so because of that now i'm involved in this hatred of my two friends got so my house gets shot two days later i'm at my nightclub and someone goes by and shoots my house 30 25 times so that's what this is right after i got made and from that point on nothing else matters to me is to kill this manseys and that's all i wanted to do So that's it.

After I got made, that's all I wanted to do was kill the Manjys. Obviously, other people got murdered, but so now I'm on a mission to kill them. And then Manji didn't do it. This bullshit in Weasel take, like he takes credit like he did it. He ain't got balls to do something like that. But like he'll tell somebody, he goes, you know, I did that. I did that. He's a weasel.

Just like when they were coming up from Boston, they were going to make him and Bobby DeMarco, he kept Bobby tell him, stop telling you people, these guys, you did that because they're going to come up and tell people that. did that and they're going to want us to do that and I'm not doing that. So stop telling him that you did this in Italy, you bullshit her. Everyone knows he's a bullshitter to kid, you know. He's a salesman. That's all he is. He's a big mouth salesman.

So, uh, um, so that's how it started. Right after I got made O'Tree, all that shit starts happening. Now I'm looking at, you know, you know, we were driving around that same night with AK-47s. Um, I have four car loads of us. So, uh, so now that's going on. And then, like a few weeks later, we, you know, all kinds of violence happened. Do you end up getting those guys? So we, I attempted, I pled guilty to conspiring to murder them, but I never got them.

Oh, they charged, they arrested you? Well, no, when I got arrested in the 2010 case, that was one of the charges, yeah. You know, because, you know, we shot at his car with a machine gun. He escaped. We had the guy waiting in back of his restaurant with the AK-47, but he never came out that night. We had people at his house that were, see, he was a paranoid weirdo. So he wouldn't come out of his house. He'd go through the backyards to go to his restaurant because his restaurant was like right there.

So we would have to get him, we would have the car drive and just catch them by chance. You know, we were trying that. Well, and then one time me and Freddie were going to walk in there and shoot him right inside the restaurant, but there was cameras everywhere. He had staff there. but we were going to try to get him out the back door. He had a back door, but there was cameras there. So, and then other murders happened, and there was just so much heat all over the place.

So that took part in it as well. What ends up happening to Al Bruno? So Bruno was, Bruno ends up getting killed. Yeah, in 03. Oh, the same year you got made? Yeah. Oh, he got, I got made in August. He got killed.

November. And did he even know that you got made? He didn't know. We weren't going to tell him because I got made in New York City. They told me not to tell him, but he eventually, he knew that I was made, but he didn't hear it from me and he didn't hear it officially from, he just, he heard it in a way where he knew. He was told by a boss in New York that when he sees me to treat me like he would treat the boss in New York. So New York called the hit for Al Bruno? Yeah, New York. They decided to, why did they decide to, instead of push him away, ended up killing him?

Because you said for years they didn't want to. Right. So they were going to take them down from like end of O2. They were going to demote him. And then O3, you know, they were looking to demote him. They were going to, don't forget, I'm going to get made. So now they figured me, Joey and Reno were going to get made. But they didn't need Joe Reno because my crew, I get made.

And I got the biggest crew in the most vicious. crew and the most lucrative crew. So they got me. And then they got this idiot Felix Tringese, who was just a soldier. And they were going to take Bruno down. And they were going to prop Felix up as like a lightning rod, new boss, right? And he was going to be the one to take all the heat from the feds. Because that's what the Genevice family does.

They're great at it. They're going to, you know, like, oh, Felix is the boss. And let all the informants go around and tell, you know, so it gets back to the feds that Felix is a new. Meanwhile, I'm already made it. I'm the most powerful guy outside of New York, right? So I got made in New York City with the bosses of the most powerful family. So I'm the most powerful guy outside of Newark, especially in my crew, in my Connecticut

and mass, you know, faction. So Bruno's going to get demoted, taken down. And what happens is there's a, those guys that got arrested in 2000, those nine guys, you know, the, Frater Rico case, they're going to get sentenced now. is like in 2003. It took three years, but now they're going to get sentenced. And one of the made guys, Emilio Fusco, is going to get his discovery. And he's going to ask, he's going to get like 23 months. But instead of getting 23 months, he gets 33 months, right? Instead of 24, he gets 33, something like that, right? And so he goes, why are you giving me more time? And he says, because you're a

made guy. And he says, I'm not a made guy. He goes, why you say I'm a made guy? And he goes, he speaks broken English. You know, why do you say I'm a made guy? And he says, I'm a made guy. Why do you say I'm I'm a made guy. And he goes, here, this is why. And they show him. And he had the worst attorney to Anthony Cardonelli's the worst attorney that there is. Everybody, Anthony Cardinali, defense attorney, you know, represented in Jullo's 45 years. God, he's case, 100, life, this, that, everybody, 20 years.

He's a buffoon. He's a gangster wannabe. So he's representing a million. Now, anybody that goes, anyone that knows, all right, so he shows him this paper. You were in federal prison, okay? You know what a 302 is? Yeah. Okay, so Emilio Fusco gets a 302.

Let's just pretend I'm going to read you what's on it, and I'm not going to tell you who said it. Okay. Amelio Fusco gets a year more in time, right? And it's on the paper, it says, why, how do you know I'm a made guy? So in the 302, it says, they ask this person, is Amelio Fuscoe? and made guy. FBI agent asked this person, the Millio Fuscoa made guy. Yes. When was he made? He goes, he was made while I was in prison. I heard you guys don't like him that he's got, he's a fresh mouth or fresh kid, but yeah, he was made. I was against it. I was in prison when he got

made. And how many other made guys you got in the immediate Springfield faction? You tell him how many guys they got made in the Springfield faction. Something about this other guy that cooperated, well, Cookie Durso. That his name, because Bruno was going to do something for Cookie Durso. He was another violent Genevice guy. He was in New York. They tried to kill him. He was down in Florida.

So all this stuff comes out on a 302. And Emilio Fusco gets an extra year for it. And it's Bruno, the guy talking on the 302. Bruno is the one that's a snitch? Yeah. Well, there you go. You just said it. Why did you say snitch?

Because he's on the 302, right? Yeah. Okay. So you ask anybody. You're a guy. You're not really. like a street street guy, right? You're into more of a, but you even said, you've been in federal prison, you know. That would be considered a snitch. Right. And if you went to a serious federal prison and you

had that type of a 302, what would happen? If whoever's written on that name, you wouldn't be able to walk or you wouldn't be able to hang out with them or be a part of them. And if he was in a penitentiary and it came out, he'd probably get killed. Yeah. Right. If his name was on that as the person has. But Bruno's name was on that. So that's why they were out. So Bruno was on the paper. Now if you ask that, This is how stupid people are. You know, they're like, you know, I don't want to see Bruno die. Like I said, my beef, I wanted to kill the Manzies. You know, I want to live a good life and eat, drink, good, you know, and boom, boop,

but Emilio Fusco gets the paper. He shows it to Felix. Felix, they both hate Bruno. They both call up New York to the informant John Bologna. John Bologna tells Artie, who's the boss, Artie tells Felix to bring the paper down. Felix brings the paper down. Artie sees it. Artie goes and has a sit down

with the other two mafia bosses, Larry and Mario. Artie calls for Felix to come back down to New York, right? And then Artie gets the order with the three bosses together and the order is to Felix to kill Bruno. Not me. So am I in it at all in any way?

No. Right. So all that I just told you 100% is 1,000% is true. Why do people say you're involved? Because now, and you said it earlier, Why do people know so much about a murder, right? The less is better. Yeah, the less is better, but you still need help.

So Felix comes back. He's not supposed to tell me he got an order from New York. I'm more powerful than he is. I'm the boss. I'm the guy that got made down to New York. And if anything, the boss in New York is going to tell me to kill Bruno, right? I don't take orders from Felix, right? I don't take orders from nobody.

I got made in New York City, right? So I take orders from the bosses in New York City, right? So Felix comes back, he's not supposed to tell me. Like if I got told to kill somebody in New York, like I didn't tell Felix about the guy we shot in New York. Why didn't I tell him? Because like you said, nobody's supposed to know. The more people that know, the worst it is, you know, the less better, right?

I'm not going to tell somebody to put another witness that could, you know, eventually testify against me one day. So Felix comes back and he tells me because he knows he doesn't have a crew that can kill Bruno. So he comes back and tells me and he says, oh, yeah, we got to kill Bruno. I said, no, no, no, no. You got to kill Bruno. You got the order to kill Bruno, not me. I take orders from New York, not you.

So they gave Felix the order. Felix couldn't get it done. A few weeks go by, you can't get it done. I get called down to New York. I'm not supposed to know about the murder. Artie gets me on the streets. We're walking up and down the streets of New York. He says, you know what's going on?

I say no. I say no. And meanwhile, the informant, John Ballonia knows about the murder. He's not even a made guy. He's a known informant. And it comes out, all this is true. He isn't informant from the 90s. He isn't informant.

And so John Bologna knows about it. I pretend I'm dumb. I don't know nothing about it. Like, no, what's going on? And he says, we're going to take Bruno out. He goes, I don't want you to get involved directly. I don't want you to use your guys and this and that, but don't, you know, and try to make the body disappear.

And that's how I ended up, you know, getting involved in a Bruno murder. But you didn't actually pull the trigger on him. No. They had guys. They took them out. We had guys. My crew took them out. But, you know, we helped plan it after I got told. That's when we participated a little bit. I still didn't think it was going to happen. You know, Freddie was in prison with this kid Frankie, who was a serious, serious kid. You know, they all said he was on drugs and he's a cracket. 100% not true. The kid could do 25 sets of 20 pull-ups. The kid was scoped like a Greek god, like he was made out of

cement and he had a reputation throughout state prison and as a serious serious badass dude um what happened was they arrested him with one of those big ar-15s or whatever when they were arresting him and so he lost a ton of weight he came into court looking all skinny so they labeled him oh why would you get a crack head to do the uh do this head he was not a crack head he was a furthest thing from it serious serious i mean he was respected by all inmates black spanish and whites and serious prisons. And I was told that to my face. So Freddie was in prison with him, said he could get the job done. And he did get it done. When Bruno's taken off the board, do you take over Bruno's position in Springfield? No, see, I was already ahead of, I didn't have to kill Bruno. See, that's so, so I get

made in August of 03. Bruno's alive and there's no hit out on Bruno. In fact, there's another hit on somebody else at the time. And we killed somebody else on the time after that. So there's no word of Bruno getting hit. Now, when I get made in 03, I am. the most powerful guy, I just have to be introduced to, you know, outside of our area, to Boston and Providence and throughout Connecticut to guys when I need to be. So like, for instance, if I go to Boston and I'm looking to do a garbage business deal with a garbage route and it's mob connected and they say, that's okay, set up a meeting and now I show up at the meeting. I need them to acknowledge who I am instead of saying, who are you? Why are you here? See, we have to be

officially introduced. Once that happens, I sit down with anybody throughout the whole country. And I'm an equal, but I'm more powerful because I'm representing the Genovese family, the most powerful family in the country. Gotcha. So, yeah, there's no thought of Bruno being taken out. I'm made. So I'm the most, but see, we're trying to keep me, Don't forget, it's 03. All the racketeering laws came out to RICO. There's informants everywhere. Those streets are loaded with informants everywhere,

especially, you know, everywhere, every city, New York. So they're trying to protect me. They want me to last. I got the biggest crew. I'm making the most money. And they're trying to make it so nobody knows I'm a, I'm a maid guy. You know, it's never mind the boss.

So they're trying to insulate me. That's what they did with the Genevieve's family did for years with, They're all their bosses, but most notably the Fat Tony Salerno and the chin. They put Fat Tony up as the boss. Meanwhile, the chin was the boss, you know. Same thing they did years later. They do it forever. So they're trying to insulate me so I can be safe from law enforcement scrutiny.

So how long are you able to stay safe before you finally end up getting taken down? Two days. Two days? Yeah, Bruno gets killed November. November 4th, no, November 23rd of 03. And I get indicted November 25th of 03 for a rack, not murder, but for racketeran. So, so, so I get, I bail out like $250,000 bail, you know, all kinds of, it was a state case. Money, sports, gambling, loan shark and extortions, you know, all this usual rack.

numbers, number business, money, you know, all the regular rackets, right? And so I bail out 250, but now I got all heat on me. Well, they know Bruno's dead, but I'm not a suspect at this point, but I get heat on me. And so I get put on a curfew. I can go out from 6 a.m. to 6 p.m. So they got me on a 250 bail and a curfew that I can go out to. I got to be home at 6 p.m. because they're getting word now that me and my crew took out Bruno. But they don't know why. But, you know, obviously they don't know why. But, yeah, so two days later, I get arrested.

And that's the state case. And that's the first state case. And how long are you fighting that case for it? So, 03 comes. Now I'm out and I'm trying to. And like I said, I got rackets that are bringing in millions of dollars and I'm in charge of it all. and I'm also trying to kill my enemy still, right?

I'm not going to stop trying to kill them. I have lust to kill them. Like, that's what I want to do is kill them. Like you say, like people say when they kill and they go to sleep afterwards, yes, I go to sleep afterwards. But with them, I'll have like a party before I go to sleep if I could kill them. And party every day the rest of my life. So that's what I'm trying to do is make money, avoid lawn.

force because now at this time they know that I'm responsible me and my crew and you know we're dangerous individuals because there's more murders that happen right after that before murder there was Bruno there was another murder that the guy went missing and we were the um the the principal um you know guys the suspicion that did it um so we got I got nothing but lawn for it. Like I had a, I had them parked in front of my house. If I left my house, I'd have to go out the back door, go through two bushes and then go to the next three, get picked up. Because I had to still put together these rackets. Don't forget when Bruno died, I had to put together all the stuff that we had, that he had, the street stuff, and get it so no one else gets it. You know, and so like

the numbers business, I had a fight and fight to tell people. And don't forget, they don't know them made. And the old time where Babba's got it. And I tell them, tell the guy to work for him, I go, No, it's ours. And he's like, who are you? Dude, I'll cut your head off and leave your head on the sidewalk. Don't ever get involved in a number of businesses again. It's my business. But they don't know who I am because, you know, we're keeping everything secret.

And so I'm trying to make money. So 03 goes by, you know, still doing the same thing. We're trying to kill Manseys. We shoot them down at the downtown Springfield. He survives that. We're trying to get him at his restaurant. You know, I'm still putting together the number. Now we're taking over Babish, all his stuff.

You know, I'm in the vending business. We got the Joker poker slot machines everywhere. We're expanding on that. You know, we're going everywhere. I'm meeting with all kinds of captains of different families and doing it. 05 comes and I get indicted again by the feds. And it was from an old gambling case from 01. You know how they go five years?

They investigate you. So it started in like, 2001 or 2000 and you know they go for an 18 month extension then an 18 months extension then a 24 month extension so they went five years and the only thing they got on me was sports gambling and money laundering so so it was nothing so i get bailed on that so i get that was like in february of 05 so now i got two cases pending so i get bailed out on that and now i got two cases pending and then i'm out there doing the same thing trying to kill them making money trying to do all that and then i get indicted again by the state organized crime task force. This time they had a listening device

in where we used to do the work every Sunday. We used to do the loan shark and the sports and the numbers and they put a listening device inside the house of one of my guys. So I get indicted for that. Now I got three cases and I get no bail. Okay. But there was no violence in the three cases. It was just all like money cases. That's why I say the money cases, if I could go back in life and do all the money cases, I do it in a heartbeat. You make millions of dollars and risk not going to jail at all. Three money cases, no violence. O five, I'm in prison, no bail. And I plead guilty to three to three and a half in the state. I had the best attorney, Vinnie Bonjournerny's the best attorney out there. He makes Anthony Cardinali looks like a dumb mental patient. You know, that's how good Vinny is compared to. And Anthony is supposed to, you know, they say he's supposed to be good.

So Vinny gets me a deal, you know, a plea deal where I plead guilty to all three cases, three to three and a half in the state and 29 months in the feds running concurrent. So I take the deal. And then I already got six months in. So I go to jail from 05 to 08. And then while I'm in prison from 05 to 08, I'm doing my time. I get indicted again in 07 for an extortion case. Um, me and the two brothers, Freddie and Thai. And this time, you know, I go to trial and we get found not guilty.

So I beat that case and I'm finally free in 08. I get on the streets in 08. During those state cases and even in the feds during that period of time, what was it like to be in prison with being a high ranking mobster? It's good and bad. Um, I never needed that reputation to get by in prison. You know, I'm not a, um, and I'm not a, um, I'm not. not a drug addict. I don't, you know, I take bets. I don't get in trouble. I'm not looking, you know, I'm easy to get along with, so I'm not going to be getting into fights. I don't get into none of the bullshit. But being a made guy is good because everybody wants to be, you know, it's kind of like, you know, you gets, I'm not sick of it, but everyone is around you. They want to be around you because, and for the most reason is they know they can make money with you when

they get out you can put them on son hey you know guys in wister a can you know you know you know it's all about you know making money when we get out but it's also bad is because i was notorious at this point you know i had a notorious um name and when you that happens they send you to the max you know because you're high level high security in fact i was at a medium and i got called to the ip the interpritim security you know they're like cops you know they're like cops inside the prison. And he goes, he goes,

how did you get by us? You know, because I go in, I'm very low key. I'm, you know, I'm not, you know,

walking around like I'm, you know, flamboyant gangster, you know, like that. I'm not looking to, I'm already got money. I'm not looking to make,

you know, a few dollars on selling tuna fishes and macros in prison. You know what I mean? It's like, I'm just trying to get by with my time and not getting trouble.

I got three kids I want to get visits from. And, You know, so I'm just looking to do a piece, you know, my bidding is a nice peaceful time. And live comfortably. Live comfortable. Like, we ate good. We busted balls. We have fun in there.

We play sports. We work out. Bus balls constantly and make the best of it. Read all good books. And, and yeah, who wants to get in trouble and go to a hole and sit in the hole and stare at these four walls all day for, you know, for something stupid? So no one messes with the mafia in prison? It's not that they don't mess with them.

You know, you still got to conduct yourself a certain. way. I mean, you still got to, you can't be, you know, but they, they want to be around you. You know, blacks, Spanish, whites, whatever, they want to, you know, be around you because, like I said, they know, if you're a made guy, you had to be pretty something, you know, you had to be smart enough, powerful enough, and something to get that position. And once you're in, I was in the papers all the time, newspapers, news, you know, we'd go back. They'd see. me on the news inside prison we all had TVs you know and so um they want to be around you they want they love the camaraderie of it they want to be part of it you know if you need anything done

you just let me know i'll shoot anyone for you for nothing they just want to be part of that you know you know so uh yeah there was no um it helps though you know you build that reputation up on the streets and when you go to prison that's where you know it falls back on you you know where you um You build it up for a purpose like that. Now, are you guys able to corrupt prison officials, just like you're able to corrupt officials out on the street? Yeah, that, you know, I, there's all, it's prison guards, you know, mostly prison guards.

Prison officials would be if you want moves. Like, I had them all, but I was just so high profile that nobody would touch me. Like, nobody would go near my case. Like, when I went to prison in 1990 and I was, you know, nothing to do with the mafia, just a young kid, I could have anything I want in prison. Any food all the time from the streets, woman.

You know, I didn't do drugs, but if I got drugs in, I got, I had my guy, a guard bring me in. So he goes and meets my friend, and because one of the black inmates I was friends with, he goes, Anthony, you got all these guards over, because I knew them all. There was a local jail, you know, there was half of them bet with me or they owed me money on loan chart or all our guy's money on loan chart, grew up with my father. So they would come and visit me, bring me grinders and all kinds of stuff. And, you know, back than the 90, there was less heat on all that stuff, you know.

And he goes, but this was in, um, 05. I did this. No, yeah, I think it was in 05. So, um, he comes up to me, goes, can you get me any marijuana? I go, why, you want some marijuana? He goes, yeah, you know, can you get it? He goes, I can make a lot of money with it in here, you know, because they make those little pin joints or whatever and this and that.

So I have my friend Louis. meet one of the guards. So he goes, yeah, he wants me to bring him in some marijuana. So Louis takes out a pound of pot, a pound, you know, like a bag like this. And he goes, yeah, here, bring him in that. And the kid's eyes come out of his head. He goes, I can't bring him in that fucking much. He goes, are you crazy?

He goes, he starts laughing. And he goes, no, you know, can you bring him in? How much? So he brings him in like a lot, a huge amount. I give it to the black guy. He drops off of myself. I give it to the black dude, Willie. And he comes back up to me.

He goes, Anthony. He goes, what are you crazy? He goes, how long you plan on staying in here? And I go, I'm planning on getting the fuck out of here soon. He goes, I'm going up, you know, I'm getting bail or whatever. I'm forgetting sentence. And he goes, he goes, you got enough pot to last your next two years. Because they make those little joints, you know, they make them small and they sell them big money in there.

Then there was this older guy, black guy, Mitch. He reminded me of Sanford and son, you know, remember Fred Sanford? You never watched Fred Sanford? No. Oh, his funniest show there was. And I go, Mitch, come here. He goes, hey, what's up? He goes, I go, look at what I got for you.

He goes, oh, he was so happy. This guy was like 70 years old. He was, you smoked by the vents. He was on his, like, all fours. He's like puffing on the joints, putting it into the thing. That's funny. But yeah, then I was on the phone. The guards walking by.

She goes, hearalada. She goes, you smell marijuana in the unit. The whole unit was. People are full of surprises. especially when you travel together. Thankfully, Verbo is not. When you book a Verbo, you get Verbo care and 24-7 live support. So your house doesn't surprise you like your friends might.

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The whole unit was high on marijuana. The whole unit smelled of it. It was everywhere. So you get out in 08. I get out in 08. Is your mindset to go back into what you were doing before? No, I want nothing to do with it. I want nothing to do my, you know, once you go away, your priorities and everything

come in to your life. And mine was my, at that time, I was married. I had kids and I had a girlfriend. But that comes first, my kids. I had two little daughters and a little son, right? So when you get locked up, not only do you lose your freedom, but it comes into your life, what's most important? And to me, it was my kids, you know, my family.

My father, and, you know, like, he died in 07. It was one of the worst losses that happened to me. I was in prison. So, you know, and I was very close with him. So I don't want nothing. And plus, I seen what the mafia did, you know, by already becoming boss coming up, doing what they did, you know,

with us having us going and shooting a guy down in New York. You got the biggest crime filming in New York, why you got us going down there shooting us. Then they wanted to do more murders afterwards. If I wasn't getting indicted and taken off the streets, they had other shit they wanted shot down in New York. Now they figure they got these crazy kids in Springfield will have them wipe out all of New York, all their enemies, right?

But we're not to crash dummies. You're not going to use us like that. And I even told them, my guys, don't do nothing. I'm the boss. You don't have to answer to them. I'm the guy that has to answer to them. Don't do anything for them. And the whole thing is I was just worried about getting indicted for the murder.

Like, you know, because I don't want to spend the rest of my life in prison. I want to be around with my kids. I want to enjoy life. I want to, you know, live like I was before, Mafia. Man, like I said, once I got made, everything went down the hill. Everything went down the hill from the day I got made. Prior to me being made, millions of dollars I made, great life, eating dinner every night, drinking and smoking the best cigars, the best liquor, the best wine, having girlfriends,

just going anywhere I wanted, treated respectful, and I wasn't an in-made guy. So that's what I want to do. I wanted to go back to that. And I wanted nothing to do with New York anymore. And Arty was in prison. So they were trying to reach out for me. And I kept sending a message. I'm not going nowhere. I'm under, I got, I'm under state probation and parole and federal probation. I go, If I be seen with any of you guys, it's a violation. I'm not going nowhere. They wanted me to come to New York. John Bologna now calls me.

Now, don't forget, he's an informant, right? But you guys don't know that yet. Well, we're told it by three different types. I told you the Patriarchas, the Gambino boss, but the faction in our family, the Babba Shabelli faction, those rats, those are the rats, Baba, Johnny Bezill, Joey Bezile, Michael Semino, those faction knew that John Bologna was a rat because they're rats. And so, and it's in newspapers that Johnny Bezell testified, you know, was in cooperated on Richie Finnelli's case.

That's in the newspaper. People don't have to listen to me and think I'm badmouthed and somebody. Go, Google it and look it up in the newspaper about Johnny Bezell. And Joey testified at the grand jury. And, you know, so they knew that John Bologna was an informant. So he calls, yeah. He calls me and he wants me to come meet him. I sent one of my guys to go meet him.

And I said, tell him I'm not going to meet him. So he goes and drives down to near Albany. And he tells him, he comes back. He says, no, he says, dude, he goes, he says, the bosses in New York, they got to give you a, now he's just trying to get me down here because he's trying to get me on wire because he got indicted again for something else. So not only was he an informant, but now he has to be a real informant, an aggressive informant. See, before he was just giving information and he was an informant. But now he's got an indictment. He's got to get out from under.

So he wants me to come down there. So he tells my guy, he goes, oh, no, tell him he's got to come. It's very important. Only he can answer these questions. It can't be messages. See? Because I have to answer it because the feds are going to be listening. So I go out in my house, go two streets down, get picked up by my guy, get in the backseat,

getting in the backseat until we get out of the city, you know, down. And then we go to Albany and meet them. We go in there. I don't remember if he was in there first or I was in there first. He comes in, big, big huge. She's like six foot three, big fat guy, beard glasses, slick back here. Looks like, you know, it's no good. As soon as he comes up and he's always playing, you know, kisses me on both cheeks,

Junior, smoking out, junior, you know, how's everything? I'm this and that. I go, ah, you know, my father, just come home and this is an 08 prison. I go, my father died when I was in prison. He goes, yeah, he was a good guy. blah, blah, blah. He, you know, anyways, long story, he wants to start talking business.

He goes, listen, New York is worried about the kid in prison. I go, what do they? So right away, I go, what are they worried for? I go, he's innocent. He didn't do nothing. And then I get up and whisper in his air. I go, I'm not talking about none of this. I barely even could he.

And I did whisper it enough because they didn't hear it. The feds were outside listening to all this. So I whisper in his ear, I go, I'm not talking about none of this. Don't ask me nothing about any murders. and I think I mouthed to him. I go, I'm not going to none of this. You know, like so he could hear my lips. And he goes, but anyways, I go back to the point when he brought it up.

He goes, they're worried about Freddie. Because Freddie was in prison for the murder. Because what happened was Frankie, the shooter of Bruno. On the day before he was going to go to trial, he flips. And he test cooperates. But he can't get nothing on me. He can only get Freddie. So he cooperates against Freddie.

So Freddie gets indicted for the Bruno murder. So Freddie's indicted for the Bruno murder. So when John comes up and he starts talking to me about it, goes, Freddy's innocent. I said, he didn't kill Bruno. I said, the guy Frankie killed him. He had a personal beef with him. Because see, that's what we were putting out there.

Because they did have a personal beef. Bruno was looking for Frankie because Frankie busted up a bar that Bruno had a piece of. So it made sense that Bruno was looking for him. Frankie went off, half cocked and fucking killed him. So we are using that as the story. And by the way, we were supposed to kill Frankie afterwards. We just couldn't get to him, too. That was another thing.

I think I pled guilty to that too. But I already ordered that one. And he said, leave his hand, chop his hands off. To make it seem like he killed Bruno and we're retaliating, you know, for doing that. So we chopped his hands off. You don't put your hands on one of us. So then, so I tell him, Freddie's innocent. He didn't do it.

Frankie did it. And blah, blah. I whispered it. I'm not talking about none of it. and then boom, he knew he wasn't getting nothing else out of me. And then he goes, we leave. And sure enough, you know, later on we find out.

And the reason they didn't send them back into me was because they knew they weren't going to get nothing out of me. So they didn't want to, you know, the more they put down, now it starts looking like you guys are, he really is innocent. And, you know, so they never sent them into me again after that. But he wasn't informant. So how do they end up then arresting you again?

So then, um, And so now he's, don't forget, he's, now he's given them all the information. He knows about multiple murder conspiracies that I'm involved in. He knows all of our rackets. He knows Artie's the boss. He knows Artie ordered these multiple murder conspiracies.

And he's also wearing a wire on Artie. Artie's in Fort Dix. He's going into Fort Dix wired up. And Artie's talking to him? Artie's talking. Well, he's visiting him. So, you know, he's probably going in there, you know, and saying, you know, I talk to the kid.

meaning me. He goes, I talked to the kid Anthony. He said, you got nothing to worry about with Freddy. Freddy's going to keep his mouth shut and blah, blah, blah. And I don't know what Artie's going to say to it. I know if he said that to me, he goes, I don't know what you're talking about. I would say that. But yeah, he, multiple times he wore the wire on Artie. And that's what led to us getting indicted. Wouldn't he know better, though, because there's already rumblings of him being no good? That's, all right. So I'm glad you said that. So today, it's, and now, Now, don't forget, it's 03. You hear bosses flipping in the mafia.

You hear this guy was an informant for 30 years, Scarpa. You got Whitey Bulger. He was an informant for his whole career with the guys in there. You've got informants that are around everywhere. And bosses today are informants. You know, the mafia, and the mafia is on the decline. It ain't what it once was. It's 03.

And so, and you hear these stories. All right. Scarpa was an informant with the persicles, right? with a, with a, Carmen Persico was the boss. You don't think Carmen Persico knew that Greg Scarpa was an FBI informant and working with him so he could kill their enemies. And it came out in the New York Daily News. Now, people could say they don't believe it.

People could say it isn't true. I don't believe it was an informant, Carmen Persico, but it was on the front page of the Daily News that Carmen Persico wasn't informant. So you're going to say that the New York Daily News is a liar. They put it in the front page of the newspaper. But what I believe is Carmen Persico knew Scarpa was and informant. And that's what these gangsters do. They, just like Bruno was going to do,

Bruno had guys around them that would have law enforcement reach, and he would tell them, you get the information from them and put them up front and tell them, tell them, tell on this guy. Yeah, tell on our enemies. You know, tell on the guys in West Springfield. Tell on this guy, the campite selling the drugs. Tell on Larry Stone and this guy's in it. Tell on Tony Manzi he's living at the house over there because he was, an illegal, you know, they're illegally.

He was from Italy, you know, telling them. Use them as your weapon. So in my mind, and in my mind, already could be using John the same way. You know, you got a good, if you got a good connection in the FBI, want it to be smart to use them for your benefit? Like he's going to tell you where the wiretaps are. Ain't that great? Where they're going to put listening bugs?

Ain't that great? And it goes both ways. Like, maybe you want to get your enemies off the street. you're going to put a bullet in their head. So what's the difference of giving them, putting them on an indictment or putting a bullet in their head? You know, tell them, you know, they're doing this or they're doing that over there or this and that.

So, you know, that's how I would take it that was going on. Just a lot of loose lips. I mean, look at even the Gotti thing, too, how they caught him on wiretap. Well, that's different. You know, like wiretaps are, you know. But even talking about it to begin with, why? Well, I was just going to say, you're going to, you have to do business somehow. when it comes to your illegal sports business.

But when it comes to murder, you know, the street rackets are the street rackets. They might pick up, you know, you have to, the guy has to say, hey, I want dollars for $500. You have to say that to somebody, you know? But when it comes to murder, you should never, ever, ever talk about murder without whispering in their ears.

That's how we did it. Never in a car, never on a phone, never talking to somebody because of these, back then it was beepers and phones and all that. You should never, ever, discuss it without, we used to, we used to go at my, one of my places was a cigar place that we used to meet. And we'd go out in the back. We'd leave all of our beepers and electronic stuff inside. And when we, because we were talking about murders and we whisper in each other air. And that's how we would talk about them. So yeah, if you get caught talking about murder on wiretabs, shame on you. You deserve what you get after that. So they end up indicting you now for what? In 2010, I get a hit with a death penalty, New York, major racketeering case. Federal or state?

Federal. Federal. Yeah. Okay. And what happens? So I get, already gets indicted. So about, I get indicted February 18th. About a month before I get word that I'm going to get indicted.

John Bologna, I get a call from a cousin of mine in Florida. He gets word because they had a faction that knew. John Bologna down in Florida with something that knew his family and he was around. He said, John Bologna, tell my cousin, so he calls up my friend. I was at an Italian club. My friend tells me what? He goes, tell my cousin that the guy with the beard that comes up with the beard and the glasses just went into the witness protection program.

So what happened was they pulled up at his house with them SUVs and packed them up and boom, they took him off. He went into whatever, safe house, wherever, right? So when I heard that, my heart saying, because don't forget, I got out in 08, and I, well, nothing to do with the mafia. I wanted to go back to, you know, but I can't, obviously I'm stuck in the mafia,

but I'm not going near none of them. I'm doing my own businesses, my own legitimate businesses. I'm going back prior to the mafia. I'm hustling my own stuff and my crew. I'm going more into legitimate. That's what my thing was. And we can go on and on about that,

but I want a legitimate business. That's where all the money is, especially today. So, you know, all the nightclubs are stripped clubs, the food industry, the garbage industry, all of it. So, um, so, uh, Artie, uh, so he tells me that John Bologna is going into the witness. So now, you know, I'm like, fuck, you know, I'm, I'm living so good now. I'm back, you know, I got rid of that shell shock. I figure I'm, I make this and I, I leave the part, that club and I feel like there's

going to be a hundred agents outside going to pound on me, you know, like, because Bologna knows everything about me. And I asked Artie to kill him and Artie wouldn't have me. You know, and now I'm thinking like Artie protected him because maybe Artie could be no good, you know, because that's what they do. They, you know, they work it together, right? But, you know, Artie's doing his time in federal. He gets indicted first, February 10th. But I don't know this yet.

I get indicted. They come and arrest me at my house February 18th. So that's when I get arrested for the racketeering case. It's out of New York. District of New York. You know, I get a rain. The judge asks, what does he face for his maximum sentence? The prosecutor goes death by lethal injection. You know, and it's when you hear that in court, it's like, whoa, then when it kill me with the lethal injection, you know, I got my family there and everything. And not that we don't deserve it. You know, you kill someone, you know,

you deserve to, you know, you could be killed too. That's how it goes. But I'd rather get shot on the streets and shot in the head than the lethal injection, you know. So what do you end up doing? What do you decide? So I go to, I'm going to fight the case. I got a great attorney. out of Springfield, Vinny Benzrinit 20. He's the best, but he can't handle the case because, well, it's in New York. So he gets me the best, one of the best attorneys that had was on the Gotti case, John Mitchell. He gets me him. He's going to charge me 150 if it goes to the court.

You know, I'm preparing to go to trial. They move me from there. I go to Wyatt. I'm at Wyatt. And so this is when it starts to all go bad. So I'm at Wyatt. And first is Vinny comes up and tells me that Felix Tringese is going to cooperate. He knows about the murder. So that puts four guys that with direct knowledge on the murder

on our thing. Felix, Ray, Frankie, and John, four guys that can put us. The second thing is I had a girlfriend. The day my father died March 8th, three years to the day, I call it my girl, my wife, but boom, boom, they both find out about she finds about my girl. And she's having a nervous breakdown. So I got the death penalty case going on. I got my wife catching me with you know, with the girlfriend. I got a death penalty case and I'm trying to get the lawyers to come up and fight this case. And so everything like that is going on. But what got me to finally make a decision of what I finally ultimately did was when my New York lawyer came up.

And John Mitchell and the first things he said, you know, was he's close with the New York bosses in my family. And he said the New York bosses are working. worried sick. And I said, why? What are they worried sick about? And he said, Artie's not in the system. Artie, the boss, Niagara was not in the system. And when they say that to you, I don't know if you know what that means. That means they're off the map hidden, probably in witness protection. Probably cooperating, right? Yeah. Okay. Even if they took him out of the prison and transit, someone's going to know, someone's going to know where he is, right? And he should still be on the system. Right. So you're talking, so Arty's not, so I asked him, I go, so he's not in the system.

I got four guys that put me with the murder and now the boss that ordered it is not in the system. So if they're worried sick, what do you think I should be? And he's like, well, just, you know, wait, let's see what happens. Let's see if, let's get the discovery.

And now, this is the first time I'm seeing him and he wants to know more about this John Bologna. So I'm telling him. I go, the guy's a piece of shit. I go, I told Artie, what they told us he was an informant from day one. I go, already knew he was a fucking informant. I go, he kept them around us.

I go, you know, I didn't tell him. I asked permission to kill him, but I go, the guy knew he was an informant. He goes, all right, well, let's just see and this and that. But now, a month goes by. So anyways, when I hear that, I figure, you know, it's like I'm a dead man, you know, I'm a dead man, even if Artie, it isn't true about Artie, but it's like, so what do I got to lose? So it was like, that's when it started putting into my mind, you know, what am I going to do here? That's when the first thought of cooperating came into my head.

if they would even let a guy like me cooperate. You know what I'm saying? I'm thinking like, you know, how would I even be offered? You know, like, but they did offer that to me. They did offer that. I never, you know, I just say, no, I'm good. I'm all set. You know, like you get arrested.

If you want to say anything, if you want to, you know, talk about your case. Like when I got arrested for this case, they said, he goes, you know, bosses flipped today. And I thought it was kind of a weird message warning that this guy was given me. He goes, boss is flipped today. You know, you're second on the indictment. you know, Artie's an old man, you know, it wouldn't be nothing for him to flip and blah, blah, blah. So I remember them telling me that and now this guy's not in the system.

Where do you go for a month? And here's the funny thing. The federal marshal on the case, who I'm partners with to this day, can verify everything I'm telling. He dropped Artie. So Artie was doing time at Fort Dix, right? This marshal was in charge of our case. You know, they pick you from prison, bring you here point A to point B. from trial to prison, you know, this, that, and the other.

They drop you off at prison. He picks him up at Fort Dix. He drops them off at MCC. So meanwhile, now you fast forward. I've been in jail over a month. I think I got to, I was indicted February 18th. I didn't get to New York until like the beginning of April. I first went to MDC and then I went to MCC.

Over a month, Artie's missing in the system. And then finally when I get to MCC, the bosses of the Genevice family are there, Danny Leo's one of them. And finally, he whispers in my ear. He says, they found Artie. He's at MDC. How did he end up at MDC?

The Marshall dropped him off at MCC. And where did he go for the month? But at this point, I already had made a move to reach out to cooperate while I was in Rhode Island. After I found out that, that's what, you know, I put a feeler out. Is it even possible for me to do that?

That's number one. And then I have to hear back from them if that's, then not only does, I'm going through the thing with my wife, death penalty case. Now I'm thinking about cooperating, but now my lawyer's father dies at this time. You know, Vinny's father dies and he's close with him. So now he's mourning his father. I got to wait for him. You know, that's why it's taken so long for me to do this. So in the meantime, I don't know what I'm going to do.

I need to him to tell him. And then, you know, because then when he did finally come up, he wishes him to my ear. He goes, you want to make a preempt. You know, like, what do you want to do here? I go, well, Vinnie, I'm dead. I'm going to die in prison. I go, I'd rather die in the streets. Let's let's, let's me get out and I'll go to, we'll have a shootout.

I'd rather get killed in the streets than just to, you know, lay, you know, get led to the slaughterhouse. So it goes, let me see. Then his father died. So I'm waiting to hear back from them. So in the meantime, I'm going to tell my, my guys. So there's only, um, three guys, Freddie Ty and Amelia in my area that is, is, um, in jeopardy of going to prison.

So I want to tell them what I'm going to do. Now, meanwhile, I haven't talked with nobody in the federal government at all. So my plan is to have their cousin, who's my wife's friend, you know, best friend, come up and visit me. Because that, why, you can get a three-hour visit a week for three hours. Or you can get three for an hour, but one week for three hours. So I was going to explain to her what I want to do, what they have on us. Artie's not in the system. We're all going to get toasted.

I go, let's make a deal with the government. We're from Mass. You know, fuck New York. We'll make a deal. We all are capable of doing what anybody can do. We're all killers. And we'll come back to our area and we'll get into legitimate business and we'll be back with our families.

And that was the message I gave to them. And that was, I was stupid for doing it because I was the target that they wanted. You know, I was the maid guy. I gave that message three weeks before I even sat down with anybody from the government. And this is all verified. The lawyer said it down. And Kelly has said it in on news channels, on news, you know, things on the news that I reached out to them.

It's in newspaper articles that I reached out to them. It's in trial transcripts that I reached out to them for them to join me and to make a deal. What was the deal you ended up making with the feds? So I ended up cooperating. They accepted my cooperation. Here's the funny thing. So they accepted it. and because, you know, there's a chance they won't.

A lot of guys go in, like John Gotti Jr. sat down with them and gave a 302. They didn't accept it. Anthony Casso sat down and gave them a 302, confessed to like 30-something murders, right? They didn't accept him. They get rid of him. And then you die in prison. Not only do you try to cooperate, so you're labeled, then they don't accept you,

and then you die in prison, you know? So they end up accepting me. and I end up so so John but you've got to be careful how you talk now baloney is their golden goose you know he's their their informant so you got to be careful because you know you if you badmouthed their golden goose or you or you say in certain things they might say you know what we don't want you because you're going to jeopardize all the good stuff that we got with him so you know you have to say things in certain ways but uh you know you know it also started he never told them about the shooting in new york he only told him about all the crimes the

other murders and the bruno murder uh but he never told him the murder conspiracy but never told him about the guy in new york because he was involved and that's a union official right so he left that out so he wasn't going to do one day in prison he was on the streets so what they did was they went and scooped them up after this. And they said, hey, you got to have to go to Allenwood. They shipped them to Allenwood, you know, the unit there. And they said, yeah, just until the trial's over, right? That's what they said to him.

Then they wait. And then they go back to them. And they said, hey, we don't think you're being honest with us. Is there anything you're leaving out? And he says, no, no, they gave him a chance. They go back to him one more time. And they said, we know you're not being honest with us. And if you don't tell us, we know you know about this, this and this.

And then he says, oh, I had a stroke. I don't remember these things and blah. Anyways, he ends up getting, he got eight years in prison. He wasn't going to do one, and he died in prison. Wow. And he wasn't going to do one day. How much time do you end up getting? Eight and a half.

Do you think that was a fair sentence, given everything? So based on what I was told by the U.S. attorney in New York, Ellie Honing, who has been around since the 90s, he was like the Elliott Ness of the modern day. And this is going by what U.S. attorneys, they said I got fucked. They said, Anthony, there was guys in New York that did way more than you that got way less. Now, if you look at it, all the murder conspiracies I did, my whole life of crime and everything, eight and a half years, is that a, you know, is that a lot? I should be in jail for the rest of my life. So, so no, they're going to say, people will say, no, that's not, you, you,

you didn't get a lot of time. You should have got 20 years, 30 years, you know, blah, blah, blah, but the people that know the life, and this is coming directly from the prosecutors, mouth. They said, yeah, you got fucked. E and F. You know, because in New York, if it was in Massachusetts, no, they would have gave me 20. But New York, where all the mob families are, these type of cases go on. There's guys that go in with multiple murders. And they're looking to destroy the mob families in New York City. So you can't do that and give a guy to cooperate 20 years because then the next guy's not going to want to do it. So you got to make an incentive worth it. Now, if they destroyed a mafia and there's

no mafia left and then the guy wants to do it. No, you ain't really giving us. The mafia's dead. What happened to Ardy? Artie, so Ardy ends up reservicing. And I believe this and I believe people that know about this believe that he attempted to cooperate and try to do what they all do. Give up certain things, not everything.

Their enemies like John Gotti Jr., give up your enemies, not crimes that you were involved in. and I don't believe it uh it um and and and I think his deal got rejected and he ended up dying in prison so when you get at you do the eight years right you get out of prison are you worried and fear your safety or even in prison are you worried in fear no so I never they offer you the um witness protection program if I never took it but they um when you do cooperate and you're like that they have units that you go to that people there have cooperated so you're a serious, dangerous guys.

Like every guy in my unit had multiple murders. You know, you had one guy that killed 24 people in prison with the Aryan Brotherhood. You had black gangs, Mexican gangs, Chinese gangs, else the MS-13s, the Italians, and everybody there had at least two bodies or more. And so you're around dangerous guys. What the problem is, it's, you know, everyone's cooperating. So, you know, you're not going to have, um, uh, the, you know, you're not going to have, um, uh, the, know, that type of violence coming at you.

What about your family? Were you worried for their safety? No. No, just that I was worried that, I was worried how are they going to survive out there, you know, and make it? Because I'm not going to be out there. But as far as their safety, no. Do you think this, if this was further back in time, it would have been a bigger issue? Yeah.

Yeah. If it would have been. Like, say, 20 years ago. Well, it was 20 years ago. I mean, you went away from 2010 to 2010. 2008, 17. Right. 2010, 17.

Right. But if it was like anything before... Like in the 90s. Yeah, if you cooperated. And not... I would still do the same thing I'm doing now. If it was the 90s, because I want to care.

Like, I want to be as, as laxadaisical and like, you know, free and going places like I do if it was the 90s. But I would, would go where my family is. I came back from, because my kids were here and I came back from my kids. If you're going to kill me on the streets and kill me on the streets, but that's what I would have did. I came back. Um, but yeah, like New York in the 90s, yeah, you're, you're, you're not going back to the, uh, to, uh, the areas like they do today. Um, yeah, you would have a

problem. And I would have a problem too back in the, in the, um, the 90s, but don't forget, The bullets can go both ways. So, I mean, if, you know, it's like if you're, if you're going to go that, but then, you know, you're not going to want to get out of a situation to go back into a situation. So, you know, that's why, like, a lot of guys are just better off going to another state. How does it make you feel that you were willing to kill people that did the same exact thing that you ended up doing in the end? That's a good question. You know, tomorrow I could get killed. My life ain't over.

I mean, Bruno was 58 when he died. I'm 57. So who knows what's going to happen to me? And in that life, what about the people that they killed that didn't do what they did? And for no reason, you know, because of some other reason. What about the people that they killed? My friend's father, Antonio Facente, you know, what about him? What about the DeCarros and all these other people that were clipped and killed?

you know, you join that life. That's what happens. Are you at peace with your actions from the past? 100%. Even to part of cooperating at the first, you know, it was the worst thing. Living, you know, like I don't, I didn't want to surrender on this. And I thank God I did what I did. I'm out here living my life like I did before I was made.

And, you know, I'm around my kids again. And everything is, I almost didn't make that decision. If it wasn't for, like I said, my girlfriend at the time. and, you know, the things that way they broke out. I almost didn't make it. When I finally made that decision to do that, it was like an all-day thing. Finally, they said, listen, either you're going to do it or you're not,

but this is it. We're not leaving the room again. It almost didn't do it. So, but now I'm totally fine with all that. The, yeah, and everyone makes their own decisions in life. The guys that end up staying in prison, they made their choice. They chose prison over their families. Do you ever think about how you would be feeling right now if you didn't make the decision to cooperate and you were in prison for the rest of your life dying?

Prison, yeah. If prison is so good, why is everybody appealing, doing appeals, trying to, you know, do law work to get out of it, you know, counting the days when they're almost home and they're pevin parties when they get, if it's so good, why is everybody want to get out of it? Would you, you know, take this room and shrink it in half and then shrink it in half again and then put a bunk in there and. go live with somebody for the rest of your life, right? And you think that's going to, you don't think, you think that's fun and that's a good way to live. It's a miracle if somebody gives you a chance to get out of that. Now, the bad thing is, is who has to go down because of that? Well, nobody has to go down.

Do what I'm doing. If I'm willing to risk and take the scrutiny of doing what I did, you know, I hear a guy saying it's the coward mover. It's the, it's the coward. and what was the other one? It was the, I don't know, what did this guy say? I don't know. But if it's such a coward, then take back what you did and go to prison and let all the guys you testify it out back on the streets.

I mean, the coward is going to prison and leaving your family for dead. Who's more important than your kids? You got kids? No. So if you have kids, who in life is going to be more important to them? So if you have to die, but nobody should be able to come in front of your kids. kids. So I'm going to put guys that we're going to kill each other. We're going to take an order. We'd kill each other in a heartbeat. I would kill my friends and they would kill me in a heartbeat.

Even my two friends that were in prison. If they got an order from New York to kill me, they'd kill me in a second. If I got an order to kill them, I'd kill them. So I'm going to put them over my immediate family. And the only thing I could say is I did what I thought, I don't think that not too many people would do. Have some balls. Go up against everyone and do it for your family and come back home and be here with me. And we could open up legitimate businesses and that's it. If you could sit across the table with your teenage self right now, what would you tell him? Never get made.

I would live the same exact life except I want to get made and participate in any murders. And I would take all the millions I made and put it into real estate and legitimate business. And I'd be worth a billionaire today. Anthony, I appreciate you coming on the show, man. Hey, Ian, thank you for having me, brother. Yeah, this is a great interview, great conversation. Yeah, I appreciate it. And it's just one shout I like to do with, you know, with my social media.

Yeah. I'm on the Instagram, Anthony Rolata. Also, I have the YouTube channel, Money, Mayhem, and the Mafia. I'm partners with Roll the Bones, Chris from Roll the Bones. And obviously, the Potsel Wine and the South Ensenigate is the book is South Incidentate and the wine patsal. And we'll have the link in the description of this episode of everything, too. Yeah, we'll make sure you're all plugged in. Yeah, thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming, man.

Yeah.