Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Michigan Gang Detective | Drew Snarey

Episode Date: October 27, 2025

Drew Snarey has lived a career most people only see in movies — from busting gangs in Michigan to protecting high-profile federal figures. He began as a Michigan police officer before transitioning into detective work focused on gang activity and organized crime. His investigative skills led him to serve on multiple federal task forces, where he helped dismantle violent criminal networks and worked closely with top federal agencies. Eventually, Drew made the leap from state law enforcement to the federal level, joining the United States Secret Service and later working alongside other elite federal agencies. In this episode, Drew opens up about life on the streets as a young cop, taking down dangerous crews, navigating the politics of law enforcement, joining federal operations, and the reality of working inside one of America’s most elite agencies. He also reflects on the emotional toll these careers take and shares advice for anyone considering a path in law enforcement. #GangDetective #MichiganGangs #TrueCrimePodcast #FormerCop #GangLifeExposed #LawEnforcementStories #PoliceInterviews #streetcrimeuk Thank you to PRIZEPICKS for sponsoring this episode: Prizepicks: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/IANBICK and use code IANBICK and get $50 in lineups when you play your first $5 lineup! Connect with Drew Snarey: Frontlineathletic.com Instagram @frontline_athletic TikTok  @frontline.athletic YouTube @frontlineathletic Facebook Frontline Athletic X @frontline_ruck Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 From Local Cop to Federal Agent: Drew’s Story Begins 02:00 Law Enforcement Career Overview: Gangs, Feds & the Secret Service 06:00 Childhood, Motivation & Getting on the Force 13:00 What Working Inside a County Jail Really Teaches You 20:00 Joining the Gang Unit & Learning to Think Like a Criminal 27:00 Cracking a Major Organized Crime Case That Changed Everything 36:00 Inside the Process: How Organized Crime Investigations Are Built 47:00 Informants, Fencers & The Hidden Players Behind Gang Operations 55:00 Why So Many Youth Fall into Gangs: Poverty, Identity & Survival 01:03:00 Misconceptions About Gang Members & The Power of Second Chances 01:11:00 Gang Detective War Stories & The Personal Toll on Cops 01:19:00 Jumping to the Feds: Joining the Secret Service & What Shocked Him Most 01:33:00 How Social Media Changed Law Enforcement Perception Forever 01:41:00 Biggest Lessons from 20+ Years in Policing & Federal Work 01:43:00 Final Thoughts, Advice for Future Officers & Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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My first real organized crime case that I would consider was one of those type of queer cases that nobody thought was going to be solved. How do you know someone's going to make a good informant? I walk in a movie theater with my two nephews. I'm in flip-flops, shorts. I do have a gun on me, but I'm in no, I have no business getting involved in something in a pair of slides and shorts and a t-shirt. And lo and behold, who do I walk into in the bathroom is him? Did you enjoy working on task force? From raiding gang houses in Michigan to joining federal agencies and working alongside the

Secret Service. This is the story of a detective who climbed the law enforcement ladder, one take down at a time. Drew, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for making the trip out here to be with me today. Hey, thanks, Ian. I'm really excited about this. Yeah, and thanks for the awesome Ruck Pack. I want you to tell the audience about your business. It's really cool. And you got me going on a hike after this, too, the first guest ever to get me to go on a hike after an interview. Well, it's great to break ground like that and be be the first but uh yeah so i have a um outside of law enforcement i have a functional fitness company called frontline athletic about three years now it's been going uh but really just this year has been production the first two years we're all um testing and evaluation and development and

stuff like that but it's outdoor functional fitness company and the business is all about getting people outside getting them healthy and making it reasonably price-wise, price-effective, so people can do it, right? Because some of these companies are extremely expensive. And so my goal was to have a lifetime warranty, so it's a high-quality item, and make it a price point that everybody can do it, that more people can afford it. So it's really, the mission is getting people outside and getting them healthy. And the vehicle is the equipment. So that's rucking backpacks that you can carry weight in.

You see a lot that's very popular now. You'll see soccer moms walking their dog with some sort of vest on all the time in neighborhoods. And then work out sandbags right now is what we're focusing on. And we started selling in May. And the interest has been amazing with no marketing budget whatsoever because I'm bootstrapping this. Just social media and word of mouth with like affiliates and ambassadors. we sold out 500 units in two months. And now we're finishing up our next round of production.

And by the time you probably put this show out, we'll be live. We're going to have the first ever women's ruck. And there's other rucks that women wear, but the first one designed by women for women. So I sponsor a couple of hybrid world-class fitness athletes. And they help design it because I think it's an insult for me as a guy. to design her ruck, right? I don't have the same anatomy as her. So to find out what is really needed,

I had two female hybrid fitness athletes, my fiance and another hybrid fitness athlete, go over it, tell what is needed, test them and stuff like that. And the biggest telling thing for me, like the hybrid fitness athletes love it. So people that do like the big time races, like Spartan races, Spartan Deca, stuff like that.

They love it. But the biggest sell for me is my fiancé, who has some neck issues from years of being an ER nurse. And so she's tried everything because I tried to get her out, well, you know, exercise me just like you and Letitia. And she's tried everything. She's tried my vests. She's tried other companies, Rucks.

Within 15 minutes, she's complaining about her, and I'm carrying it the rest of the way, right? first time trying ours, she rucked for two hours and was gushing about how comfortable it is. So you take something that 15 minutes in, she's like, get this off of me. It's hurting my neck and my shoulders to she didn't want to stop. And she walked for two hours with it on. And then she was like, it was the prototype that I showed you earlier. And she was like, I don't care what you do with production and stuff like that.

But could I have this one? because I finally found one that worked, right? So that's it. I mean, that's the company in a nutshell. It is way more than I expected. It's grown faster than I thought. And that's an amazing problem to have. Yeah, you saw the pictures of me.

I was using some vest. I got a dicks where it's kind of, it's just like it's awkward to where it always rides up on you too. Like it'll lean more towards the back than the front. And it is uncomfortable and it does hurt you. But those weighted vest walks are good. So I'm excited to be using this. and we'll have Letitia rocking it too.

Yeah, and that's the thing. Like, so weight invested, it disperses the weight evenly, right? But with the rock on, it's on your shoulder. It's on the back, high on your back. So your body, your core is engaged the entire time because it's not evenly distributed over your front and your back. It's on your back. So without you knowing it, your core is engaging that entire time because you're

supporting that weight. So it actually does more for rucking with then a weighted vestwood. Awesome. Well, I'm looking forward to trying it after. I'm looking forward. I can't wait to see where you're taking us to hike. Yeah. And thanks to Jim Weber for connecting us and putting you on to the show.

Oh, yeah. Jim's a good dude. Yeah. You know, I ended up doing his show telling some stories from work experience and stuff like that. And then I saw him post that he was on your show and I chad with him. He's like, you know what? I got to send Ian a text, man. and let him know that that you'd be perfect for the show.

I was like, thanks, man. I really appreciate that. He's like, yeah, I'd love to help you get on his show. Yeah, we got to text him after our FaceTime. If he's an iPhone guy, I forgot if he uses the iPhone. I think he is an iPhone guy. I'll give him a FaceTime later. Where do you grow up, Drew?

So I grew up in Saginaw, Michigan, which everybody in Michigan holds out the hand like this because it looks like a glove. Everybody does it. I'm going to do it too. So Saginaw is about right here, right? And then I went to, not a really, nice town, but I had a solid upbringing and stuff like that. But like Saginaw typically ranks year and year out in the top 10 in the country per capita of murders and violent crime. So I was

interested in law enforcement as a kid. I also wanted to be a teacher. My mom, my dad, most of my aunts and uncles and stuff like that are all in education. But I had one uncle who was a major with the Oakland County Sheriff's Department, which, is a northern county on the northern border of Detroit. And I looked up to him quite a bit. And so I could not decide. I'm here. I'm a senior in high school.

And I couldn't decide what I want to do, a teacher or a police officer. And I really, for me, it's always been about giving back to the community and helping people less fortunate. So teaching education and law enforcement, helping others find their way. I was a lifeguard in high school. So I've always been the type that wants to help others. And I remember I couldn't decide. And I went to my barber.

My barber hoping to make this decision. He'd been cutting my hair since I was a toddler. And he said to me, he's like, basically I told him the same stuff. And he's like, you're just going to have to go with your gut on this. Like, what's your gut telling you? And I walked out of there knowing that I wanted to be a police officer. What did your parents think of that decision? Because that's very different than education.

Yeah. So my mom, has often said that she wanted me to hire on with the Library of Congress, especially, because, you know, there's not a whole lot going on in a library, right? And I was like, no. And then I ended up going to Fair State University, which is on the west side of Michigan, criminal justice background there. I got a master's degree in administration for criminal justice, and then went out to the

workforce. And I spent my first two years with no experience. it was tough getting a job and I ended up hiring in with the Oakland County Sheriff's Department where my uncle worked. And I worked in the jail the first year. And I would say that experience working in the jail was one of the most influential experiences in my career. And I say that because as a corrections deputy, you deal with all walks of life. I even in my police interview and in my federal agent interview when they asked about history, I said, everybody that goes into law enforcement, I feel should at least work six months in a jail because you meet everybody. And not every,

just because they're in jail, it doesn't mean they're a bad person. Everybody deserves a second chance in life, right? But you learn how to talk to all kinds of different people. A lot of people that have gone into law enforcement, you know, have came from a good neighborhood, you know, They had a great upbringing. Mom and dad were always around, all that stuff, right? So they never experienced, like, tragedy and adversity. You know, they've never seen, you know, real criminal acts until they get to law enforcement and they get out there and they don't know how to handle it.

But when you go, we're starting in jail, start as a deputy working in the jail, you see and talk to all different walks of life. And you learn how to talk to different people and how to talk to different people constructively. So not only can you get across to them what you want them to understand, but they can then communicate to you and give you what you need to understand. And that helps you on the street. And whether you're a patrol officer, detective, gang detective, federal agent, whatever down the line, it teaches you how to talk to different people because not every person is going to talk like,

Ian Bick or Drew Snary, right? They're just not. People are different. People come from different backgrounds. Some people are city. Some people are rural. Some people, you know, grew up with no furniture and a mattress on the ground. Some people have a million-dollar homes.

So you have to learn how to talk to different people. I thought it was great. So that was my, I did a year in the jail, and I did a year as a patrol officer and working in the courts. That was also very interesting. because working of the courts, you hear a lot of different cases. And then sometimes I would supplement family court. So you would hear a lot of child support and child abuse cases and things like that. And it gives you a certain type of perspective of what else is out there.

But after two years, I wanted to be out doing some more stuff. So I left there and I hired on with the Southfield Police Department, which is north border of Detroit. If you're wondering what Southfield is like, think like the movie 8 Mile. All right. So it has a lot of businesses there. There's some Fortune 500 companies there,

but it borders Detroit and an area that is very much, well, eight mile runs through it, but it's very much 8 mile ask of what you see in that movie. So again, once again, going back to jail, working in a jail, you get to know all different types of what, and you're dealing. with them like people i say like what's it like to work in southfield i said i compared to like the

tale of two cities during the day it's very business class there's crime but you know a lot of business people the population went up by like 100,000 um and then at night it was like it was little detroit it was the wild west so that's how i would compare it i did uh 13 years at that police department um eight of them as a detective and as a gang detective now it wasn't class of fight is like there's a gang unit. But my investigations were gang focused. And so I had a couple of investigations that were, that people would consider career cases. And I was very fortunate that a lot of times agents and officers or detectives may have like one career case in their entire career in 25 years. And I've had like five. And that a lot of, sometimes I feel like that may just be being in the

right place of the right time, you know what I mean? Or just falling into stuff luckily. I think there's a lot of skill and there's a lot of talent to be in a detective, especially when it comes to interviewing and learning how to process clues or tips and stuff like that. But some of it is just luck. Like developing, I've had a knack throughout my career for developing informants. And I'd tell you right now, a lot of my cases would not have been solved without confidential informants or confidential defendants, which the difference of confidential defendant is a person who has been arrested, has a case on them, and they cooperate with law enforcement in an effort to get a reduction. You can never promise them a reduction because that's illegal to promise that.

I can't say, hey, if you help us out, I can talk to the prosecutor or the DA and get a couple years off. That's totally legal. But you're showing, they're shown that they're cooperative. And as a result, a lot of times that is relayed to a judge who lightens sentencing for them as a result. How do you know someone's going to make a good informant if you're able to know it all up front? Well, you have to, you have to verify it. You have to verify their information. Like, it's got to be credible. So when they give you information as a detective or as agent, you've got to track that information down and verify it because the ads happen. There will be people that will come to you and tell you stuff.

And when you look into it, it's all BS. And it's because they want to get out of something, right? Or, you know, whether it's somebody that's been locked up or somebody on the street and you're talking to them and they, you know, they've got something in their pocket they shouldn't have and they want to get out and they start telling you a bunch of BS. and you go to verify it and it is it's BS. So you have to verify it first before, you have to make sure that they're credible before you go through the process. Are there some people you just won't take on

as an informant based on, you know, like your character and what you're not willing to compromise on? Yeah, well, they're not supposed to be still involved in criminal activity. I know sometimes you see throughout the world that like that's, that still happens and people look the other way. but by policy, most agencies, including the federal government,

you cannot, they cannot continue to be involved in criminal activities. So, so they have to be at least trying to be straight at that point. So people like that, like if, if you know they're still getting into it, like, sorry, man, it's not worth it. It's not worth it for us. It's not worth it for us for you to potentially cause trouble for us and get us in trouble, just because you're trying to help yourself, but you're playing both sides. Listen up, everyone.

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there is a 20% promo code when you sign up with your email. Hope you guys start rocking and keeping these around your house because these are pretty awesome. So it's not like what you see in the movies where that person still actively committing crimes or, you know, say killing someone or doing whatever while still being an informant to kind of save themselves. Well, you know, Hollywood movies are good for a reason because it's Hollywood. It's a lot of embellishment. It's a lot of pretend and make believe, but, you know, stuff like Donnie Brasco and stuff like that, like even though movies, even movies that are based on a true story, a lot of times there's a lot of embellishment in them to make it more marketable to the general public.

What do you consider is a career making case? A career making case would be a case where it could involve organized crime. It could be multi-jurisdiction. it can be something that when it happens, everybody looks at it like, there's no way they're figuring that out. There's no way they're solving it. And then you end up bringing it home and you end up solving it and making arrests and recovering whatever off and stuff like that. That's, those are career cases. So a lot of times career cases involve organized crime because, you know, you can arrest one person and, hey, great job. But when you contribute,

a criminal organization to it and you end up arresting 10 people. That's that's career case level right there. No, when you say organized crime, it's not just the mob. No, organized crime. Organized crime is not just mob. Organized crime can be, you know, street gangs, teens, you know, kids that are 15, 16, 17. And then they have like the OGs that are up around 30 or stuff like that. that's that's organized crime and it technically by conspiracy by laws for conspiracy organized crime you and I

and we could do some dirt together and it's organized crime and it's conspiracy and those are enhancements on charges because we conspired to do this together right and then it would be up to the investigator to show that and the the assistant u.s. attorney the district attorney whatever your people are called in in your area that do that stuff, that prosecute, to show that there was a conspiracy there. Are those cases, in your opinion, harder or easier to prosecute? Much harder. As an investigator, you have to have your stuff together. You could, because you could just go for a little hanging fruit and you could just be like, all right, I got one guy, I'm done, I'm moving on the next case. I don't care. This is just a

paycheck for me. Or you have to put in the work and connect the dots and connect different open source media, data, stuff like that, that would connect you and me to the, as a criminal organization instead of just, Drew did something, but, you know, we're not going to waste our time on Ian. And then it would be my job as the detective or the agent to combine the, to figure out how, like, I know you're connected to me, right? I know you're, we're the bad guys. But as the investigator, how are they connected? So I would start looking at all your stuff to try to figure out how you're connected to your social medias, you know, different investigative like wire transfers and stuff like that, you know, very basic things that people just tend to forget about.

What was the first organized crime case you worked? What was that about? The first organized crime case I worked was as a police detective. So this is years before I went, became a task force officer with FBI and before I left local service and went to the feds. So my first real organized crime case that I would consider was one of those type of queer cases that nobody thought was going to be solved. So there was a gun range and shop in Southfield that somebody rented a U-Haul. They got a U-Haul and drove it through the back of the shop. And on the video inside, they jump out.

They're wearing gloves. They're wearing masks. It's the video is just grainy enough that you can't tell that they're wearing like Air Force ones or, you know, whatever shoes. There's no, there's no factors or identifiers that are like, oh, we got to look for that. And it was kind of like a, here you go. Good luck. Go out and interview them and see what happened and then see if there's anything. and if not shut it down.

Well, I went out and I went out to the scene. The news was already there, so reporters are trying to talk to me and stuff like that. And it was a situation where it was, you know, we know what you know. So, you know, I'm sorry that we can't really comment on there. You can reach out to our public information officer on this. And what happened was like a lot of cases like that was I started talking to people on the street. And, you know, have you heard anything about this? Have you heard, you know anything about that?

Because there was two guys that were doing it. So I started talking to people on the street. And then all of a sudden, like one day I just get a phone call of this one guy. And he says, I know who did that. And that's where confidential informants come in. So I had to talk, I had to interview him and sign him up as an informant, which means I had to verify that he was credible, all his information is credible, no criminal history.

you know what's his past history stuff like that i had to look all that stuff up uh and then sign them up as an informant and um and so when you become an informant like you're just a number and reports don't say he or she uh because you have to protect their identity because obviously there's risk in being an informant so um you need as the as the detective or agent or officer uh it's important for us to protect them um and because believe it or not, like, I care. I don't want to see you're, you're coming to me with information. I appreciate your help, but I don't want to see something bad happen to you. All right. That's, that's the scope of law enforcement that I believe is important that you were here caring for other people and helping other people.

So I want to make sure that I protect your identity as much as I possibly can. If you out yourself, well, I can't help that. But I can make sure that you don't get outed on my end. So the informant tried to start giving me information. And this case is long gone. Like this is like 15 years ago. So so the informant starts giving me information and starts just like sending me social media of people of like who to look at. And it was a gang.

It was a Detroit gang that was involved. And what they did was they had ran the truck through the through the back of the shop and they had still 22 rental rental guns and then we found of course like a day later we found the U-Haul burnt out to a crisp on some abandoned street in Detroit it's Detroit's notorious for that like half the city the downtown is great but like half the city is burned down so like we would literally be doing surveillance on our gang task force and you'd see like a boat sitting in the

middle of the road because people would be committing insurance for us would just drop their boat off their trailer and then go scrap the trailer. So you would see odd stuff like that. You just see a boat sitting in the road and nobody's moving it because there's only two houses on the street that are active, that one, you're surveilling and somebody else. Right. So but so it was left in Detroit, right? And left in Detroit.

And so of course there was no prints, anything like that. It was a waste of time processing it. But she had to. So evidence tech was out there. didn't find anything. Well, this person, this informant, started sending me in the right direction. And then lo and behold, on I-75, there was a gang shootout. And so on the freeway, as they're driving, they were shooting. And then, so Michigan State Police passed that information to me. And then they exited, cameras show them exiting and then go into a gas station.

And one of the guys goes behind a dumpster and then watch. walks out. And then they go in the store. So then the video in the store is really good, right? And behind the dumpster, well, lo and behold, it was a gun, one of the guns from the shop. So that was our next big clue. And so the video inside was great. So I start looking at all the social media. Next thing, you know, I'm matching it up to a bunch of guys, right, that were involved in the shooting. And so we start looking at them. I ended up getting the ATF involved. There's an ATF task force in Detroit. And a lot of this at that time also came to management of personalities as a detective because I wasn't a supervisor.

I was just the case detective. But we had our own group in Southfield called the tactical crime suppression units. Those were the run and gun guys. Those were the jump out boys. Those were the cowboys. All right. So they, there was a. directed that they be involved because my supervision wanted to be and then I had this ATF task force

which the ATF task force was big on surveillance big on developing large cases and stuff like that so I have this this one crew from Southfield that heats up the neighborhood wherever they go they're going to be doing traffic stop after traffic stop trying to identify and then we have this other crew that likes the neighborhood cold as ice because they want to be able to see you operating in your own element right So these two are working together and finally I had to separate them because they were they were button heads. And they're doing stuff for me. Like so I'm not out there doing 15 different things on the case. They're doing it.

So I had the one group go over here and work this neighborhood on this stuff and I had the other group go over here because I was realizing really quick they couldn't work together. Like they were their their styles were not meshing well. So we ended up recovering. So we ended up figuring out who the main two players were. And we ended up executing a search warrant on the residence. And of course they had ID theft. I say of course because it's so common, but like they had ID theft going on where they had like a computer set up

and a whole bunch of like blank white cards and a magnetized strip thing and a whole bunch of people's ideas and stuff. So they were running credit card fraud out there. But we also recovered guns in the house, which was the big, like, man, what are we going to get here in this situation? And when you recovered guns from the incident in the house, like, you know you have a good case, but it was kind of like that situation like, oh, you know, like we know we had the guys, but I'm so glad we recovered guns there because it just cements it, right? And in that case, we ended up recovering nine out of the 22 guns, which in a gun case, especially a larger gun case like that, nine guns is significant. It doesn't seem like it is because it's not even half.

But to be able to still take nine guns back off the street, that's very significant. So that was like the first real career case that I had where I turned, I turned nothing into something. the whole burning the car thing, burning the truck thing after a crime, does that actually help criminals? Or does it kind of draw more attention to law enforcement? Maybe law enforcement didn't even know there was a crime committed and then they see this inflamed car. Like I didn't understand that. And we see that in every TV show and movie now. And clearly it happens in real life too.

Yeah. It depends on the situation like that is to destroy evidence, right? And it really didn't matter. but like you'll see cases where there was one in Chicago where they they get called to a car and fire in an alley and there is a woman bound up and dead in the back. Well, you just drew attention to the crime, right? Like they ended up solving that crime because of that car being on fire, whereas the criminal was thinking the guy that did it was thinking, oh, I'm going to destroy evidence and burn this up. And they're like, you just, you just gave them the clues they needed, right? Which is great for us in law enforcement.

But yeah, burn in the car nine times out of ten, it's not a good idea. I just feel like now, too, you can't even use a car to commit any type of crime with the cameras, with, you know, tracking with everything. Oh, yeah, cameras are everywhere. So, like, you're going to be, you're going to be recorded someplace. It's just how it is. I mean, your phone in your pocket is a tracking device if it needs to be, you know. everything's a tracking device. Even burner phones are tracking.

People will buy burner phones, you know, which for people that don't know on the show, a burner phone is something that you go to the gas station, you pay 50 bucks. It's preloaded with minutes. It's still electronic device. The only way for you to not be tracked is to go off the grid, like completely. Like you're going to go out in the middle of the country and you're cutting all electricity. That's it. At this day and age with society, you cannot not be tracked.

So what's the benefit of a suspect? using a burner phone now in today's world if there is any benefit. None. I tell you right now that like if you have investigators that are worth their weight and anything, burner phone is no different than a regular phone at this point. The only difference is it might not be registered to that person, right, or to their girlfriend or whoever's paying their bill. But it's no different.

You know, in prison, we were using boost mobile phones. Were you? Yeah, because you didn't need a put like an actual. driver's license to the name of the account so you could just sign up for the unlimited plan with a random name. And put just put like some joke name or whatever. And then you just paid on a prepaid card. But it goes back to like with a burner phone, they could just look at where that phone

was purchased from. And I'm sure there's a camera at that location too. Right. I mean, and there's a lot of other other ways to, you know, that we won't get into investigative measures that they're going to be able to figure out where that phone is used. Have you heard about that singer's car where they found the body in California, David, or whatever his name is? But it wasn't a Tesla. They found a body, his like ex-girlfriend.

And out of all the cars, there's a body. I feel like a Tesla is the worst car to put a body in. The thing is full cameras. Yeah, that's loaded. I don't know how they're not, that the police are not going to. And then, like, all the data that the car saves, you can tell you exactly where that car has been down to the second. And the car's registered in his name, too. But they put out a statement saying he's not a.

suspect or not yet a suspect, but it's pretty crazy to see. The car was found in an impound lot in California. And it's been sitting there for a month and then it started to smell and they opened it up and it was a half-decembered body of his ex-girlfriend. Yeah, it's a pretty crazy case. And then last night, Letitia and I were watching, I don't know if you saw it on Netflix. It was, it was the whole documentary is body cam footage of a woman who ends up shooting someone in charge with manslaughter. Did you see that one? I guess it just came out. I forgot the name of it. I'll find out the name of it for you. That's interesting, though. Yeah, the whole documentary was body camp footage and this woman kept calling the cops on her neighbors

for the kids running in her yard and stuff. And then eventually she shoots through the door when the lady was coming to complain about her and kills the woman. And she got charged and convicted a manslaughter. Wow. That was an interesting police documentary. I'll have to check that one out. I like watching stuff like that. So it's my fiancee. So, you know, we'll check it out. If it's legitimate. Like, there are a lot of cop shows I can't watch because it's just so, so off base. But, like, if it's legitimate documentary ones, sometimes I'll watch them. This episode is brought to you by prize picks. You and I make decisions every day, but on prize picks, being right can get you paid. Don't miss any of the excitement this football season on

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I don't know how legit that is, but. The rookie, is that that series that they had that was it where the female officer was like the FTO of the young guys at the same show? That's a different one, but there is a female FTO in ours, but I mean, in the rookie, but in that one you're talking about, that's the one where the young officer died. I think, and she's the female officer. It starts off, I think, at California, she does. She's on a traffic stop and she gets killed on the traffic stop.

And like everybody's shooting hoops. And True is like it is today, people just started like recording as she's bleeding out and dying. That was a really good show. Yeah, that was excellent. I hope they make a second season. I was going to say, I wonder when they're going to bring that back because they did a very good job. You know, they had the teaser at the end like it was going to come back. I'm like, I hope it comes back because that was, that was gritty.

It was very good. Do you think that your degree in? criminology helped you at all in your law enforcement career? No. No. In fact, if I would, to do it all again, I wouldn't have gotten a master's degree in criminal justice. It was, I mean, it helps you with structure and it helps you with time management and things like that. But it was built around a police academy. So the police academy was built into the bachelor's degree, but you could have just gone through a police academy and gotten the same type. of training. It was just more from, excuse me, it was just more from an educational standpoint.

And then the master's degree, like when I was going through, they had just started the program. We were like the pilot class that went through. And I can honestly say that I've never used it. I've never used it. I'll tell you it helped me get hired with the police department and then with the federal government because I had a master's degree. And at the time when I came through for these things. Not a lot of people had master's degree. So a lot of people like, oh, wow, he's got a master's degree. But now master's degrees are really common, especially in the federal government. So it's not a big deal. And I don't really have an interest to be a supervisor. So why do I have a master's degree in administration? If I were to do it all over again,

I would have got my master's in business administration. And especially with frontline athletic now and building that company because everything I've done is I'm learning something new every day. So that first case you're just telling us about when a case like that closes and it's such a big case for you, what happens to your career after that? Well, people, I start to be on you, you know, as like a guy that does more. And that's always been kind of my thing is like I'm not okay with just doing the bare minimum. Excuse me. I got into this to actually help people.

so I always try to go to the next step and help those in need. And so you tend to get noticed a lot more. You tend to get called a lot more to work, you know, major cases. And that was really like the trajectory of where I am now because I had that case and then I had a jewelry store robbery case that kind of catapulted me into working on an FBI task force. and then from there working for the feds, not as an employee of the feds, but basically for them, I'm on loan from the police department. That catapulted me into federal service, seeing that, like, I can take the next step and I can

still be good at what I do. Like, it's time to take the next step for me. Did you enjoy working on task force? I loved it. I loved it, man. It was, so I was on an FBI gang-in-bion crime task force called their St. Street Street's Task Force Initiative. And it was based out of Detroit.

Ours was in Oakland County where I was at, but we spent most of our time in Detroit. That's how we saw pictures I could show you of, you know, chopped up cars and sitting in the street and boats and yards and stuff like that. But I loved it because it was, you had a lot of reach in regards to you weren't just, you know, pigeonholed by jurisdiction. And you were working real stuff, right? Like you, you weren't just getting assigned, you know, 40 cases and half of them aren't going to go anywhere, nor do you have the time to work that much. But you are, you had a couple of cases.

And on that task force, like they were all conspiracy. They were all organized crime. So they're all very serious cases. I know when I went, how I got sort of chosen for that case was, um, I, um, I, um, I, um, I, um, I, I was at training and I get a call that there is a jewelry store robbery in Southfield. And video shows them coming in with sledge hammers and they were smashing out the case and they were taking Rolexes and stuff like that. And well, this had been a big thing going on in the Detroit area. Like they were getting hit all over the place.

But at the time in the 2010s, 2000s, whatever you want to call it, police, police department. still weren't really communicating that well. You know what I mean? Like this is our case. Yeah, you have the same case, but this is ours. And so they weren't communicating. And so I ended up making an arrest on that case. And because I made an arrest on that case, I ended up interviewing the guy. And he ended up providing information into the criminal organization and what they were involved in. And it broke it wide open and we ended up solving that we ended up arresting like three four guys off of that case uh and then i ended up taking uh that case to interviewing for the task force when we were getting assigned of the task force and it wasn't even a thought they they took me on and i brought that

case with me because he had told me that they were going um that they were going out of state doing these and that as a result of going out of state doing them and he wasn't informant so i can say he right uh But them going out of state, he was telling me what they were doing, how they were doing, and all this stuff, and what to look for. And I ended up taking that case to the FBI task force. And in a year and a half, my partner on that task force and I ended up indicting 48 subjects with interstate robbery and then also charging six subjects stateside with various possession of stolen goods, conspiracy.

things like that that didn't fit the parameters of what they wanted at the federal level. So 48 people in 18 months were absurd. Like it's unheard of at the federal government because everything takes so long in the court system. But it was so we were dealing with two to three robberies a week. And we were in reaction mode a lot of the time and flying all over the country to interview people that got locked up because nobody knew the case better than my partner and I. So instead of having some agent or detective there to the interview,

we'd fly out there and talk to them and interview them. And our assistant U.S. attorney on that case, you know, God bless his heart. He's since moved on to other sections. But he even said he's like, I've never processed a case this fast ever. You know, grand jury after grand jury, affidavit after affidavit. And yeah, we did 48. The one of the, we ended up there was like two main ringleaders. and one of them we arrested fairly quickly.

The other one bought a new identity and moved to Arizona. And he was actually up until two years ago, was it two years ago? No, I was still with the, I was still with the Secret Service at the time. So it was actually 2019. So it was a lot more than two years ago. It just time flies. We got a tip. and he was actually on the FBI top, top, most wanted list.

So you have, he was so elusive and he had been involved in so much, you know, millions of dollars of jewelry store robberies that he was on their most wanted list next to like terrorists and stuff like that. And that case that I had in 2014 alone, Jared Jewelers, just in 2014, off of that crew, was at a loss of $29 million. And Rolex jewelers were at a loss of $17 million, just off of those guys. Well, they ever got that money back?

I mean, insurance, probably. They won't get it back from the suspects because as soon as they got the money, they were spending it. You know, they're taking it to a fence and they're getting $60,000 for these diamonds or whatnot. That's spent like immediately.

on, you know, on the flash life, on being flashing and stuff like that. Strip clubs, cars, you know, just throwing money wrong. It's no big deal. Does law enforcement make the effort to go find the fence and try to recover the items? Or is that one step farther? I think it's actually very important. And it's a great question, too, because on that case, I arrested two fences and ended up pulling their videos from their shops.

and that told a lot. Like, you know, you can't deny saying, no, I never sold diamonds to them if you're on video selling diamonds to them, right? So that was that was huge. I ended up arrest in two fences. They both ended up getting convicted. Did, I think, a little bit of time, but the ringleader ended up getting taken down in Arizona.

And, you know, he had like long dreads at this point. He totally changed his whole. image, his whole personality, everything, his whole identity. And he got grabbed up and he's, he's doing like eight and a half years right now. What's the liability on a, on a fencer? Do they just have to be proven that they knew it was stolen? How do they even know it was stolen items? We have to prove that they knew it was stolen. But can't their defense just be that they, you know, I didn't know was stolen? Yeah. And that's, that's, you know, plausible deniability, right? But, I mean, it gets to a point like, all right, so these guys that are driving rental cars that don't have two

nickels drove together are showing up to you every week to your store or whatever your business is and they're selling you loose diamonds and Rolexes. Every single, where do you think this came from? Right. And eventually you're going to get to the information that you need that like, yeah, I knew it was stolen, right? Because when you present it, like that plausible deniability doesn't really come in like we all have common sense and common sense is going to tell you if this guy's coming into my shop three days a week with and every time he's coming in he's got a bag of loose diamonds and they're good i know they're good you know i'm checking them and stuff like that they're legitimate diamonds well where does he get he's not a diamond broker

you know where's he getting them from and a diamond broker is not coming to the hood to sell at you know some mom and pop shop on whatever street, right? They're going to go to another diamond broker or a retailer. So stuff like that that doesn't make sense. Like you can poke holes in their story and their accounts pretty quickly because it's just not plausible. I just feel like there's so much risk too on the fencers. Like they have no idea how close law enforcement is and is enclosing on the suspect that

gave them the items to begin with. They could be right outside the door and you're getting ready to make that deal to begin with. Oh, there's huge risk. And I think that's why they pay pennies on the dollar. Like they'll, you know, you may have a $10,000 diamond, for instance, just for example, and they're paying $1,000 for it. And then they're turning around and selling it to a jewelry store for, you know, like $5,000,000 or $5,000.

Just examples. Like, I can't give you exact numbers of what they'd be selling it for. But I did learn from that from Jerry Jewelers, from their investigative people that a significant portion of diamonds in the United States that you go and buy for an engagement ring or whatever there are stolen goods. Like it's very, it's very high. I can't put a percentage on it. One, because I don't exactly remember what it was that they told me at the time, but it's high. Like you need to go to reputable places, not some place in a strip mall. You know, that this is, you know, we sell, we buy and sell diamonds.

You might not want to go there, right? But if you're going to a reputable place, you should be in good shape because the amount is high. Because it's difficult for, unless they're, you know, laser etching serial numbers on a diamond, you don't know. You don't know. So it's, there's a lot of risk in it. Do you think when these criminal organizations hear the words task force being assigned to investigate them, they're actually scared and it deters crime? Or do you think it doesn't matter? I don't know. I don't know how that. I mean, you hear like in social media and in, you know,

videos and stuff like that, they'll actually talk about like, you know, the task forces on me and stuff like that. And it's almost like worn like a badge of honor. But I think it obviously, it could definitely or would definitely create anxiety because it's not just, you know, uh, Joe detective looking at you. You've got, you've got a whole group of people looking at you and working on you, right? So, so it's you against a whole task force. When you're assigned to a task force, does the department that your, your home bases, um, hire a new detective to replace you to kind of fill your spot? Or is that kind of just a vacant spot? Uh, yeah, they, it depends on the size of the department and the budget, right? But typically a detective will replace you and you'll be assigned

out as a detective with the understanding that when your time is up with that task force, you're going to come home to the Detective Bureau. Unless you don't want to, you say like, no, I'm done, I'm burnt out. I want to go to patrol or something like that. You'll have a spot. You'll have a home there when you get back. But yeah, they need to fill your seat because the cases aren't going to come stop. When I got into gang investigations, I was a property crime investigator or detective, which was I was, I was, my partner and I investigated commercial, uh, breaking and enterings and home invasions, uh, which also was a lot of gang stuff too, by the way. Uh, but yeah. So, and then when I got into that, they replaced my position.

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Yeah. A lot of it is seeing what other people have and coming from whatever their socioeconomic situation is like or their family life is like, they don't have that. I mean, I've been involved in search warrants where you go into the, you execute the search warrant and you go in there. And, you know, there's a dirty mattress on the floor. There's no furniture. There's a huge TV that may or may not be stolen. And, you know, there's, you know, if there's a child run around, they have, like, you know, they have feces kicked up on their back because nobody's really taking care of them. And then the person you're arresting is wearing a $500 Gucci belt, you know, like $300 shoes, you know, you name it, anything designer, because it's image, right? So a lot of times this stuff is committed by younger individuals because they want a certain lifestyle that they see from one of the, you know, OGs that really aren't doing anything for themselves either.

But they look flashy. They're 30 years old. They look flashy. neighborhood, you know, they're breaking a kid off, you know, $100, hey, go to the store and get me McDonald's and they come back, keep the change, right? Well, now this kid's like, oh, wow, I've never even held $100 until I met this guy. And he just told me to keep the change. And when he took out his money, there was like, you know, 10 hundreds in there. How do I get that? So a lot of times it is youth that I get caught up by adults that are praying on them.

Because like the, you know, that jewelry store robbery case with 48 people, the ringleaders were who they were. They were older guys in the neighborhood that never went into a store, never were on scene. You know, it took us, it took other investigative measures to figure out who they were. And the people going to the stores were like 17, 18, 19, you know, still classified as adults, but just kids. and what they're doing for what are they doing for all that exposure and the chance of getting caught their taking it was like $1,200. Hey, we're going to take you out of state and we're going to do this robbery. I'll pay you $1,200.

The guy that is running it, $60,000, not putting himself at risk at anything. So back to your question there, yeah, youth is a lot of times it's the image that they see around them that they've never had. And oftentimes they can't see that there's other options for them because there is no options in their neighborhood. So you get into socioeconomic situations where, like, if you come from a bad neighborhood and all there is is liquor stores, daycares and churches, well, you don't have any job options, right?

So it's tough for you to get out there. You know, you might not have a community center where you can go spend your afternoon. So the street is your community center. you see that stuff and it's hard not to get pulled in. Like it takes a special type of person not to get sucked into that life when that's all that is around you. Do you think the parents are at fault and should be held responsible for these children joining gangs? Well, I don't think you could like legally hold them responsible. No, I don't mean like a rest, like morally hold them responsibly.

Yeah, like morally, yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, whether they have both parents, you know, someone has both parents, the home or not. And by the way, like, I'll take this, for example, like, I was raised by my mom, you know, for the most part. Yeah, I knew my dad. My dad was in the picture, but my dad played a significantly lesser role than my mom in the, in the raising of me. And I'm here. I'm okay. You know, I didn't grow up in a great neighborhood. And I grew up in Saginaw, you know, in the city, not in like some township or some suburb town. And there was opportunities for everything. So a lot of it has to do with both your own mindset. One is your own mindset of,

you know, your own integrity and morals, but that comes from your parents, right? So those things are taught to you by your parents. And I'm not saying that people don't make mistakes, right? Like, I mean, people get caught up. Like, you talk, I've listened to your story. Like, you clearly made a mistake, right? Like, you've made a mistake in life. And people are allowed to make mistakes and people are allowed to turn it around. You should be. But if you're in a lot of these situations that it's not cookie cutter, if your parents aren't involved in your life, you have a much better chance of ending up in that world, then you did if your parents were active in you and active in talking with you and active in teaching what's right and wrong and how to say no to

things and, you know, also put in structure and stability around you. And a lot of times in certain areas, certain socioeconomic climates, that's just not available. When you would make arrest on some of these young people, teenagers, kids for gang activity, what were some of the reactions from the parents or interactions with the parents? Maybe at court, or I'm sure you encountered them throughout the criminal justice process? It was, there was a a broad scope. You would encounter everything from, oh, not my baby, to, yep, I'm not surprised, take him away, to just not even be in the room.

Sometimes you'd go try to find a parent. And, you know, because it's a juvenile, especially if it's a juvenile, you like, if it's bad enough, you're going to take them to the juvenile facility, right, for a hearing in family court or in juvenile court. But if it's if it's a lesser, a lot of times you will release them to the parent. And sometimes it was extremely hard to find a parent to the point where like you're searching for any relative. And the, you know, the kid knows. The kid is like, you're not going to get a hold of my mom. And yeah, I don't, I don't even have a number from my dad. You might be able to call my aunt and like sometimes it was it got to the point where you were releasing them to an older sibling

because there was nobody else how'd that make you feel do you feel bad for them a lot of times you'd have especially in juvenile lockup because in an adult lockups at like the police department other people processed them for you right like you bring in you fill out some paperwork and then they would take care of it. But then Juul allow lockup, you're processing them. And it's just like a holding area, right? Like, it's not a lockup. Lockup.

And you'd end up having conversations with these kids a lot of the time. And in my mind, I saw that as an opportunity to talk to them. I didn't see it as like a nuisance. Like, I have to process this person and, you know, and whatever. Like, it was an opportunity. to actually talk to them and and do my part, whatever that was, whether they wanted to listen or not, to try to steer them on the right path, even if it was just like, oh, man, you know, that cop that arrested me, he was pretty cool, you know, like, just having conversations.

Like, I remember one kid, I was a stolen car as a patrol officer, chase, foot chase. Now, he was like 16, and I caught him. he's like man you are fast how did you catch me and i and i was like well i i ran track and i played sports in high school i played some sports college and stuff like that so it was like i was like just because you know then you're joking around you're like just because i'm old doesn't mean i'm slow and uh and so you'd get this rapport going and you would talk about sports and sometimes you hope that that's that's just the difference they needed like the kid didn't need to be didn't want to be a lecture, didn't need to be a lecture. But we talked and he saw that I was a human

being. I wasn't just a badge and a gun. And we were having conversation about school. And, you know, I would always ask like, you know, how are you doing school? And they tell me like, man, I don't even go or, or, you know, I'm failing this. I'm like, yeah, what we would talk about like, you know, without being preachy, making, making something of themselves. So they don't end up here again. And a lot of times, like I said, it was just about, like, having rapport and joking around and, you know, so they see that you're a human being. And that could potentially sway someone in a different direction because society, you know, Maddie, Mattie Ice and I were talking about, like, society, like, in the news media and stuff

like that pushes you in a certain direction of whatever, whatever their scope is, possibly, whatever they're being funded by, right? Like it's either this way or it's that way, but it might not be the whole story. So a lot of times, especially in inner city, they are given this perception of law enforcement be in a certain way, right? And when they actually interact with you and they find out you're not like that at all, like it can turn their world upside down and realize that like, man, what I thought was a certain way is not that way.

I can get out of this. And that may sound like kind of pie in the sky like just one conversation. but it actually works. It actually works because you're actually having conversations and they realize that I'm not just out here kicking indoors and, you know, violating people's rights and stuff like that. But I'm actually just some guy that is doing a job. And I see that you have some issues and let's chat about it for a couple minutes.

Yeah, on that note, what do you see as the biggest misconception the public has about law enforcement? How much time we got, right? Like, so the biggest misconception, there's a lot of misconceptions, but I would say probably one of the biggest misconceptions is that cops or law enforcement are inherently a certain way. And I think some of this is media-based too, like what narratives that media want to push, that law enforcement, are bigots, they're heavy-handed, they're racist, all this stuff. And from my experience personally, working with officers and agents of different color, yeah, there's people that have preconceived notions, whether it's in law enforcement

or anywhere else. But it's just, it's really, it's just not even there. Like, people are just doing a job. I could be on a task force with, you know, people have severed over different. backgrounds, whether ethnic background, sex, you know, race, color, creed, all that stuff. And it's just a bunch of people working together. Like, nobody cares. And when we're out there working the streets, we're just working the cases that we work.

It doesn't matter what your background is. If you did it, that's what I'm working, right? I don't care what you look like. And in my personal life, like, too, like, I don't care what you look like. If you're a funny guy, I'm going to joke with you, right? Like, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what your upbringing is. Like, I think that's a big misconception is that a majority of law enforcement just views

that people are people, right? That there's not that I think a lot of that is that divisive stuff is media based, being pushed on people. Yeah, something I realize with my show is I have a big listener base of law enforcement officers and they'll reach out to me. They'll DM me on social media. Hey, love that episode with some. and so and so, and so might have been a gang leader in a prison for 10 years and now is out

and is doing better. And law enforcement was interested in that story for who that person is as a person. Right. And that's another great example. And a great example of misconception or perception of law enforcement. Like just because I'm in law enforcement doesn't mean that I think somebody that committed a crime is a bad guy. It happens.

Right. you should be allowed a second chance in life. If you make a mistake, I've made mistakes in life. We all have to different varying degrees. But if you learn from it and you come out of that mistake a different way, you should be allowed a second chance because mistakes build, you know, strength. They help you to handle adversity. They help you to handle stress.

They teach you to be patient. And they teach you how to do the things the right way. everybody did things perfectly all the time. Like, man, this would be a boring society, right? Like, and, and nothing would ever go wrong. And you would never learn anything because everything just kind of happened for you and just happened a perfect way. So, like, just because somebody did a bank robbery doesn't mean they're a bad guy.

It couldn't mean that they were hard up that, you know, they had a family support and they had lost their job. And, I mean, I had a case like that where a guy was robbing hotels, hotel counters. and I ended up catching him when I was a patrol officer and had a conversation with him and he had lost his job a while earlier and he had a wife and two kids to feed and he was instead of, he was too proud

instead of talking to his wife and trying to figure something out, he took it upon himself to try to find a solution and the only solution he could come across was robin counters, robin clerks at counters. And does that guy, is that guy damned for life? Absolutely not, man. The guy made a mistake.

The guy made a bunch of mistakes in a row, but got caught. And if he took that at lesson and turned himself around, why should he not be afforded every opportunity that the rest of us are afforded, you know, people need to forgive at some point. So that's another big misconception about law enforcement, that once you're in their sites, you're in their sites for good. No, you're still in their sights. If you get done with dealing with your mistake and you come out and you're the same

person that you went in as. But if you turn around and are doing your own thing, man, more power to you, brother. Go get it, you know? How often are you seeing drugs and alcohol be a precursor to some of the crimes you've investigated? Drugs a lot. Drugs a lot. I'd say alcohol.

And I saw that you said recently that you were going to stop. drinking. Kudos to you, man. That's awesome. Good for you. Yeah, I wasn't even like I drink socially, but every time, like, say it was a Saturday night. Yeah.

And I interview the next day or something. I just feel like crap. Yeah. I just, I don't like it. And I also don't like that. What I realized is it only takes like two drinks to put you over the legal limit, too. And I could draw it. Like, if I had two drinks, I'd feel fine, but I'd still be over the legal limit.

And when you have like a following and a platform, the last thing I need is getting pulled over and getting a DUI, too. So I didn't want that either. And there's just all these different things that I kind of put into my decision. Yeah, you're in the public eye now, right? Whether you, whether, and you chose that. So now your image is, you know, and you know how judgmental people can be on social media, right? Like, they're judge jury and executioner when they don't even know half the story.

So your take on that is absolutely right. Like that's why I say kudos to you, man, for giving it up. And not because of what people think in the social media world, but for your own good, right? Like, I, I pretty much don't drink it all anymore either. Like, occasionally with a meal, if it's a gathering, like, yeah, I might have a beer, but drinking, drinking, then those days are done because the same thing. Like, you feel like crap, right? So that stuff does play a role for certain, especially drug use.

Because drug use, if you get addicted, like with heroin or meth, stuff like that, Like, you'll see, you see the mugshot pictures where their first arrest, they look, you know, very normal, just running the mill person from the neighborhood. And then 10 arrests later, they have, you know, they have sores on their face. Their skin, you know, their cheeks are sunken. Like they're, they look like they have permanent bedhead, you know, stuff like that. And we would see that too, especially working in the jail. Like you'd see, like, their first arrest. And it could be some, like, absolutely gorgeous woman, right?

and then by arrest 15, you wouldn't, if you were at a bar, you would not even look at, look twice at her because she's scary looking, right? And it's the same person. And it contributes to crime too like that because when you're addicted, the chemicals in your brain start telling you, you need to get this in any way possible. So you start stealing from your family, you start paunting stuff. then you have nothing left. So now you start committing crime in an effort to fund this addiction.

So yeah, absolutely like it can be totally be a driving factor. You know, it's interesting. I put up that post and I didn't realize how many people are kind of either sober or quitting alcohol too. It kind of shows why there's like a decline in bars that I've kind of been reading about too, where they say like the bar industry is a lot, is doing a lot less sales than it once was. Yeah. And it's normalized. because alcohol is so normalized that it's thought of like it's no big deal.

But alcohol is actually so toxic for your body that it does so many bad things to your body when you use it that it should be worse than some of the other drugs because it is so bad for you, breaks down so much. And we don't think about that in our, in our, you know, 20s and stuff like that because you're just having a good time, but you realize later on that it can take. its toll on you. What's one moment as a gang detective that kind of you still remember to this day that you still think about? One moment as a gang detective that I still think about. It was getting, uh, getting assigned

to the FBI violent crimes task force and then work in that case. And another one that we had was another task force officer, so a police officer from or detective from another local agent. had this heroin distribution case. And it got started because all these people in his town were OD. And so, of course, his command staff said, we need you to work this because we have a, we have a, we have a heroin epidemic in our town and everybody's overdosing. So we started working on it. And it turned out to be, you know, a local gang in to.

that was distributing this, started working up the case. And in one day, we had to do, we had to hit like a whole bunch of doors. We had to do a whole bunch of search warrants. So it was a multi-jurisdictional thing where we had a command post. And that day, so we hit, I believe it was something like 10 search warrants were executed simultaneously across Detroit. And off of those search warrants, our task force, which was a bunch of police detourts. some sergeants, police sergeants, and then some agents, we ended up executing seven warrants in that day. So it was just like one after another, one after another.

So we had a state's attorney or a state prosecutor in Michigan assigned to the case. And literally we would hit a search warrant. We'd get the evidence. We'd get information. And the way it was rolling, it would lead to another warrant. And so the case detective was taking that information and in real time typing up an affidavit and swearing it out in front of a judge, like within the hour. And then we're rolling and we're doing a workup on that address and we're hitting the next address. And that day, our task force as a group hit seven addresses from 6 a.m. in the morning till 7 o'clock at night.

So like we were literally going from one to another and we would stop and we would have a briefing outside. side of Jimmy John so we could get something to eat, right? Because we were, because, and I was the shield operator. So I was the first guy in that carries the shield like this. So I'm carrying around this 40 pound weight all day long. We're exhausted. And like the last house we, we hit was like, and it being a whole bunch of drugs, like $25,000 in cash, two rifles and four guns. And that was it for the day. We're like, all right, let's take, let's take a break. We did seven today. We're all exhausted. But, but I remember at like, six, o'clock at night. And it was the middle of summer. So, you know, the sun's not going down until

at 10 in the middle of summer almost. Yeah, sitting outside of Jimmy John's eating a sandwich while we're briefing because we're all so hungry and dehydrated. The amount of logistics that go into bus like that, give them a lot of credit because that's just the amount of organization and figuring everything out is incredible. Yeah, it's, it is. And then what people don't think about, like, because you see it just on TV and then the detectives or whoever are on to the next thing, the report writing afterwards is substantial. The report writing afterwards could take two weeks because of the report, because you're writing a report for each incident and logging evidence and doing other documentation and so on and so on and so on. Like for those,

that amount, like I believe that that case agent and the people that were helping them closely were writing reports and doing documentation for like two weeks afterwards. How hard was it for you mentally to go from one call to the next to the next. I've interviewed a lot of law enforcement where they explain that feeling of, you know, you go on that, you know, really heart-wrenching scene or case and then it's over and you have to go on to the next one, like the first one never happened.

Yeah, that's very true. And I think what happens is as law enforcement, a lot of times you get desensitized. You become desensitized. Like, you know, it is what it is, but like, you know, you'd be on a homicide scene, and as your process and gather information, you'd be talking about where you want to go get something to eat afterwards.

Because it's, and you don't show that to the people, at least I didn't, because there's victims there, right? And there's family there. And so I want to make sure that I'm showing that I'm empathetic, that I'm not cold to that situation. Even though I may be ditty sensitized, they're not. This is the most significant event in their entire life. And I say that same thing about somebody that gets,

arrest like yeah i may arrest three people in a day but the person that's getting arrested this is the most significant event probably in their entire life this their their life just went to shit right uh whereas for me it's like my first arrest of the day you know and i'm i end up having two more between lunch and grabbing a you know a monster energy drink somewhere um and so you become desensitized to it, but you have to find that balance of even though you're desensitized to it. And that might be like a coping mechanism in itself. So you don't get sucked into it. You have to still learn how to talk. You have to know how to talk to people. That goes back to the working in the jail thing, right? And be empathetic. That also goes back to the jail thing is, you know, listening to people's

story life stories and stuff like that and talking to them and have an empathy for their situation just because they're locked up doesn't mean they're a bad person there's life circumstances and yeah i took that out to the world and you have that homicide and even though you and i we may be pushing a patrol car together um and we're talking about where we're going to eat as i then i'm turning around and i'm talking to the victim's family and they're crying and i'm empath i need to be empathetic and I need to be understanding and I need to be supportive and I need to be giving you documentation for you know resources in the community and stuff like that and I think sometimes that's lost in law enforcement because you just see crazy crazy crazy all the time that you that

certain people in law enforcement forget that these are people and that they need to be treated like people and that they you need to have compassion for them. because the victim's family, they might not be, you know, they may have a criminal history, they may not be good people, they may, you know, whatever, whatever your views are, they're still people and they still have feelings and they're still dealing with a very traumatic event in life. So you still need to show that you understand that and you're compassionate to it. And then you may leave there and you have to go do like a recovered stolen car, you know, so you are, you're going from like zero to 100 back down to zero.

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Especially if, say, you're living in the same state or even in the vicinity just to be that normal civilian yeah it is absolutely uh because the cases the cases draw you in so a lot of times on this was this was an issue um in my my marriage at the time i'm not married anymore uh but um you end up working longer hours especially like when you're on like a really like case with a lot of hot leads uh you'll be working at home on it because uh at least for For me, I want to solve it. And that is interesting and it drives me. And so you have this stuff like, I don't want to just leave that for tomorrow.

I'm not going to be able to sleep. I want to figure that stuff out right now and follow those leads up now. And so you end up, you know, being in bed at 1130 at night and, you know, with a laptop or with the phone working on stuff. And then also you end up taking home because you see, especially working. gang work, you can see some of the, the worst stuff. Like, you can see, you see the depths of society. And then when you've seen, you feel like you've seen the lowest,

then a week later you see something worse. So I think a lot of the general public is, and understandably so, and probably for the best, is naive to a lot of that world. But in law enforcement, no matter what position you're in law enforcement, you you see that stuff and so you know the evils that are lurking outside and so it also also causes you to be more vigilant like i remember that interstate robbery case that when i was the task force officer one of the main guys on it um i had arrested him we executed warrant on his house i had arrested him he jumped out the back window

uh like his girl was still in bed she's like oh no he isn't here uh well he had clearly been here because there was a big wet mark in the bed, right? So, like, we surprised them. But he jumped out the window and we found him on the street and we, and we ended up, you know, pulling up on him. And he had like, in his pocket, he had like $10,000 cash, right? Because he was making a run. He just grabbed a stack of cash took off. Well, after he got indicted and then was released on Bond, I took my, my nephews to go see that movie Southpaw. Do you remember that? It's good movie, right? It's so good, Jake Ellen Hall. Dude, he is a heck of an actor, man.

But I was taking him to see that. I walk in the movie theater with my two nephews. I'm in flip-flops, shorts. I do have a gun on me, but I'm in no, I have no business getting involved in something in a pair of slides and shorts and a t-shirt. And I have, plus I have my two nephews with me, like two teenagers, right? I'm taking them in the movies. And lo and behold, who do I walk into in the bathroom is him?

He's going to the same movie. his girl sitting there and I um and he walks out ahead of me and he's standing by the movie door and I'm standing with my nephews like in the you know the common area of the movie theater and I tell them what's going on and him and his girl are looking at me because he recognizes me and I'm like I I had to diffuse this right now like I'm in I'm in no shape to be doing anything here you know I'm not gonna I'm not going to make an arrest because he had he had skipped bail or he'd skip bond so he had there was a warrant out for him so um I just walked i just i had no idea what's going to happen but i was like i got a role with this i just

walked straight up to him and i said don't worry man i'm here for i'm here for the same reason as you to watch a movie and and and we walked into the theater and sat down and he took off like he didn't stay for the movie him and his girl um so yeah like it heightens your awareness uh you have incidents like that where you run into somebody that is a bad actor and you have to figure you have to figure it out because you're not you're no longer in your law enforcement element right so you got it so for me the situation was to diffuse it right to let him know that we're not going to get into it right now I'm with my family and I'm trying to watch a movie I think sharing a story like that too on the flip side also help show that you're just a normal person too like law enforcement is normal they have a family they have a

life they do normal things that someone not in law enforcement would do yeah yeah right like I like to go to the movies. You know, occasionally you might run into somebody that doesn't like you there, but I'm just here to see a movie, man. You know, I have time off too. Why did you end up leaving the police department? So at the time, I was seeing that working at times the police department was hamstrung by jurisdiction, right?

So a big thing that I did in that case, the Jewish or robbery case, when I was still a detective and not a task force officer. was I organized a local fusion meeting, which a fusion meeting is just bringing all these departments together. So I put out emails to all these departments that have been hit and anybody else around there. And there was like 20-some. And I said, we're going to have an intel meeting at our police department, which, by the way, blew my boss's mind that I organized that on my own because it was unheard of. And that also led to me getting on the task floor because they thought that I was, you know, I was one that would think outside of the box.

And so I had everybody come in and I had like a PowerPoint put together, you know, like they didn't call them like decks back then. It was just a PowerPoint slide and put together. And then after I provided all the information that I had, I like just opened up the floor. And if you got a case that you need help with related to this, come up. And that was, so those were the first steps. and then I got in the task force, and I was flying all over the country, and I was working stuff

like, you know, I was running down to Cincinnati, Ohio, or Asheville, North Carolina, or out to, you know, San Jose, California, stuff like that, on cases that were happening in Detroit. And as a police detective, that's never going to happen, right? Like, I remember as a police detective, I had that robbery case, Jewish store robbery case, and I presented it to an FBI agent, and he took it, and they took it, and they did. told him, no, we're not going to work that. Then I won the task force, and it turned out to like 48 indictments in 18 months. So like as a detective, you know what's happening, but there's

nothing you can do about it because it's outside of your area. As a federal agent, you can do more and you have more resources. So what I did was I started applying to agencies, and this was right around 2009. And then that was during the Obama administration. And the sequestration happened. So basically all hiring in the federal government stopped because the budget had blown up and, you know, there was no money for anything. So there was no more hiring in the federal government. It completely halted. And the sequestration stopped or there was a budget that was passed. And I, I was getting ready to age out. Like I thought I had planned it perfectly

because I started applying when I had nine years with the department. And you had to attend to be vested to get a pension, a partial pension. So I started applying at nine. And then that happened. And I ended up getting hired at 13 years. And everybody had aged me out. The ATF, FBI, DEA, all said, sorry, thanks, but no, thanks. Because you were too old?

Because I was getting to be too old. I was, so as a federal agent, you have to get hired by your time of your 36 because you have to and be in it with agency by 37 because you have 20 years and the mandatory retirement for federal agents is 57. So if you can't get your 20 years, you don't get a retirement. There's no vesting. It's 20 or nothing. And there is waivers.

There's, you know, agents can technically work up to the age of 62. if needed per United States coat. But they had started aging me out because I was 36. Well, lo and behold, like two weeks before I turned 37, the Secret Service called me and said, hey, would you like to come downtown? We want to continue your process? I said, yeah, absolutely I do.

But you know that I had turned 37 like two weeks, right? And the agent that was doing it and said, No, I didn't know that. Hold on. I'll call you back a little bit. An hour later, I get a call back. He said, don't worry about it. We looked at your conditional offer, which was back when I was early and when I was 36. And your conditional offers technically with the federal government is technically your onboarding date. You're not an employee, but you are like their property, I guess, you could say. And so your conditional officer is your time with agency, not. when you actually get to the academy. So we're going to give you a waiver. So I was like one of the oldest guys in the federal academy at 38 and ended up with the Secret Service as a result. And they sent me to Chicago.

They offered me, they offered me the job. And they offered me L.A., New York City, San Francisco, or Chicago. And with me living in the Detroit area at the time, it was a no-brainer. First of all, they're all expensive places to live. But Chicago was the least expensive. still close to family, which ended up paying huge dividends later on during a divorce of being a single dad that I needed help. And so my family could come from mid-Michigan and help me because I had only been there when I ended up getting in that situation where it was just myself and

the kids. I don't have been living there a year. I didn't know anybody yet. So I didn't have friends. I didn't have a support system or anything like that. There was no strong. structure yet. So my family came to help me out, which was, which was a huge, huge blessing in disguise of choosing Chicago. But yeah, I ended up going to, to the Secret Service and stayed there for quite a while. And I worked in organized crime with them. And then I also worked protection. So in the Secret Service, when you live in D.C., for the most part, you're assigned to protection. He had the president's detail, vice president's detail, a bunch of other groups there that you could be assigned to. But when you're out in the field, so like Chicago, L.A., Miami, whatever, you work investigations.

And then you supplement protection. So you're on rotation. So every couple of months, you are basically added to protection and wherever they need you, they're going to send you. So I may have been working, you know, I may have been standing next to President Trump one day at Marlago. and then two days later I may be with Obama in New Jersey and then right back a couple days later I'm with at the time Vice President Mike Pence in Billings, Montana and then down to the border whatever it's wherever they need you and you know for that month that you are at you're at the needs of the agency so you go wherever they want you to go like there was one month where I was home one day the entire month. And my kids were young. My kids were like four and six and then

five and six because they're a year and a half apart. And when I when I had the month where I was only home one day, I was like, I'm done with this. Like you can only see so many cool things working in that job, standing on top of the White House, you know, hiking this, doing that until they're not being inside the border wall down at the river on the real grand river, real grand river, real. Grandi River and stuff like that, working, helping out on a protection detail where it's not, it becomes not cool anymore. It becomes old. And because you're missing your kids growing up, or you're missing time with your family. And so at that point, I decided that I was going to try to do a lateral transfer to another agency. And the way the federal government works is typically

once you're a criminal investigator for an agency or a special agent, you can go to pretty much any other agency if they hire you, but you go with your time on job and your pay. So, you know, like it's not like a police department where I may go from New York City, you know, NYPD to Danbury PD and I lose all my time on the job. And I start over as a rookie police officer. You know, it's not like that. You, you, everything transfers. How long were you with the Secret Service four and a half? I was with, I'm sorry, interrupted you. I was with them four and a half years, and it afforded me the opportunity to work. One very high profile organized crime case that, again, was gang members in Chicago.

I seemed to end up finding that a lot that had informants again. And that case, just to touch on it for a second, was a counterfeit case where they were turning one dollar bills into $100. And in a year, I was able to attribute to the gang over a million dollars in counterfeit, made and spent. And that money was funding all their other operations, credit cards, human trafficking. They did a lot of human trafficking, gun trafficking from Atlanta and Ohio, and then moving around narcotics packages, so moving heroin around Chicago. And it was all funded by counterfeit.

And then on top of that, like I worked, I ended up having the opportunity to protect both of the Bushes, Obama, Trump, never Biden, but I heard some crazy stories because agents will talk to each other. But, and then both the Clintons too. So both Bill and Hillary, I did details for. Wow. Probably pretty interesting. It is very interesting because when you're behind the curtain and they're just talking how

they want to talk like just they're not trying to put on a political persona uh for whatever reason you hear how they really are when they're talking to their staff and you're around them so much that it's almost like you're a stanchion or you're like a fan in the room like you're not even there so they will say some of the stuff that you're just like i can't believe this is coming out of this person's mouth and you there's you know there's so much division in the media world between Republicans and Democrats and independence and Trump versus Obama and, and you know, Biden. And I can tell you personally from standing next to these people, none of them are all

that different. They're just how they, it's just how they, the media wants to portray them. And some people have the vocabulary of a politician and some don't. You know, some people say, like Trump right now will say whatever's on in mind. He doesn't care, right? He tries to run the, and I'm not supporting Trump, and I'm not supporting Obama or anything like that. But Obama is a very polished politician, and he's a very good talker. And Trump was a businessman before coming in politics.

He didn't spend his whole life in politics like the rest of him. And he says whatever he wants, whether it's, behind closed doors or in front of the camera. He's just going to say it. He's trying to run it in the country like a business. And if you don't like it, well, you're out of here. That's how he runs a business. That's how you run a business, right?

If you don't like what we're doing, well, beat it. You know, right? You're not helping the business. Whereas Obama, as a politician, he'll say whatever he wants behind closed doors. But out if he was on a mic like this, like, man, you're going to think he's amazing because that's, That's what politicians do.

And I can tell you from standing next to these people as they talk and how they interact, that even though one is perceived this way and the other is perceived this way, they're pretty much the same guy. And same with the other ones too. Like you may say, you know, Bill Clinton was like this. And then, you know, George Jr., the other Bush was like this. But they're pretty much the same guy. you know, when they're behind.

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backyard, and beyond. These savings won't last. So don't wait. Shop Wayfair's Memorial Day clearance now through May 25th. every style, every home. I close doors in here talking, like they have a lot of the same talking points. It's just how they're related to people. Is that a big part in the background check to become a Secret Service agent,

finding out what your political affiliation is? Because you have to stay so neutral in those positions. No, you can have any political affiliation you want. What you can't do is you can't broadcast that, right? Like, when I was there, there was a lot of secret, there are Secret Service agents that would get in trouble for making a Facebook post. you know, about Trump at the time because, you know, there was such a media push on Trump about how bad of a person he was.

And this agent was a liberal. And she made some comments on Facebook. And this is, keep in mind, this is a person that, you know, is expected to take a bullet for that politician. And so there's a lack of trust there, right? So that person, see you. You can't, you can't do that. You can't be in this position.

There's non-disclosure agreements that you have to sign. Like the stuff we're talking about is fairly common knowledge because there's there's agents that are now, you know, pundits and, you know, for different media outlets and stuff like that. And they talk about the job all the time, but there's stuff that you can't talk about, right? And you have to sign an agreement that you won't and you're held to that. And one of those things is it's expected that and as a federal agent for any agency is they expect you to be impartial when it comes to government. So even though you may personally talk with

someone and not like who's in the White House or not like this Congressperson or this, you know, person on the Senate in the Senate and stuff like that, I can talk to you as my buddy about it. And that's fine, right? We're just chatting, you know, but I can't post that to social media. Because whether you're trying to be or not, you're a representative of that agency. And you, you're You can't, you just can't do that. Like, and then your agency can't trust you because if you're saying something negative about the president, well, how can we trust you to protect that person? And you're seeing that more too. Like, I see a lot of teachers are getting fired too.

Oh, my goodness. Because they're bringing politics into the class. Yeah. I mean, it's just, I mean, the best practice is just don't do it, right? Like, social media will bury you. Like, why are you putting this, you know, Facebook is Facebook. Why are you putting social media post, you know, political stances on Facebook? Just post the pictures of your vacation like everybody else.

I tell my dad that all the time because he's always posting stuff about one party versus the other. And I'm like, dad, one, you're in the hospitality business. You're a caterer. You're alienating 50% of the people right there. Right. And two, you know, why does it matter? Just keep it to yourself. But he's like, ah, I'm old.

I want to do what I want in my final year. So whatever. But I'd never want to get political. It just, I think it's the best way, especially in business. You always kind of want to stay neutral. Yeah. And when did we, and you need to be because like you said, you lose 50% of your clientele. I mean, when did we, when did we get to the point where you are ending friendships because

of somebody that they, because somebody your friend voted for? Oh, we can't be friends anymore because you voted for Biden. Or we can't be friends anymore because you voted for, like, what? dude we just shot hoops together yesterday what are you talking about like you were you were the best man of my wedding what are you talking about man like who cares like it's just it's somebody that's totally removed from us that's over here running the country we live in small town suburbia like what does it matter but that happens and it's a lot of it is media based you know and and that push so like yeah i would never ever post

anything on social media politically, not just for the job. The job is, it would be a deal breaker for my career. But it's just not worth a headache, man, because everybody gets riled up. Like, I'll see friends I know that they'll post one way or another and it'll be like some very divisive stuff, whether it's from the left or for the right. And like the comment section is like tens and tens and tens of people and it's just like bickering and nobody's actually listening to each other. Right?

Like, like, they all just want to make their point. They're not actually listening. How are you going to, you know, have a constructive conversation if everybody's just trying to tell each other how wrong they are? Do you think social media helps or hurts law enforcement? I think that it can do both, right? It's like, for instance, you have a lot of departments and agencies that are embracing it and it helps with recruiting because they're showing that this is what we do.

this is how we do it. You know, you put a little bit of, sometimes they put a little bit of Hollywood flair to it, you know, with some music and stuff like that, like a nice drop on a reel. And it helps. And also, like, it can air out some issues. Like, you know, the public may be like,

I can't believe that that person, that happened to this person, that they got arrested for that. And then the police department releases the body cam footage. And they're like, and everybody's like, oh, no, never mind. you know what I mean or it could have the have the opposite effect right I think body cams are an excellent excellent tool people don't like having them but if you're if you're doing your job right

like it's going to do nothing but help you it's if you're doing your job the way that it's supposed to be done that body cam footage is going to save you and it's going to protect you because inevitably somebody is going to make a false claim against you and you just turn over the video and that claim goes away because video is not going to lie now I'm On the other scope, it can hurt law enforcement because, as we've discussed, social media is so instantly reactive instead of, you know, social media doesn't take time to gather facts. And during a criminal investigation, a department or an agency is not going to be like, all right, let us lay out the investigation for you. especially if it's still an active investigation

because that's going to kill, it's going to destroy some of the stuff they're working on because you're letting everybody know. So like, all right, let us lay this all out for you so you have a good understanding and you can make an educated decision. No, you got to hold that stuff back

because if I tell you A, B, and C is what we're doing, well, we're never going to get any results from A, B, and C, because now everybody knows we're doing A, B, and C. right so it can actually hurt because people will jump to conclusions they will make presumptions and you know it can cause civil unrest it can cause either peaceful protests or violent protests and sometimes it might like everything that has been done may be totally warranted and it's like just slow down and wait let us do our job what we need to do and then we'll get there you'll see

you'll see, but we can't tell you right after it happened what we're doing because we've got to do it. So it can go both ways. What do you think is the biggest lesson in law enforcement or working in law enforcement has taught you? Compassion, empathy, and definitely how to talk to people. I've learned that I can go into any room and I can become relatable and talk. with people. And I think law enforcement and working in the jail has taught me how to do that. And also to, it has helped me to look beyond what's right in front of me. So like what we just ties and what we just talked about in social media. Like it's here so must be that way. Like there's

nothing behind it. That's what a lot of people do. That's what I other overreaction is. Well, it's taught me to look beyond that. You know, like so and so gets arrested. But, what's the reason behind it? It's not just because they're a bad person. It's because there could be more to it. Like what is what contributed to this? There's, we're all people. We're not just, you know, we're not just statistics.

We're a lot of, a lot of people, whether it's political business, you know, whether you're sitting at a desk as an accountant or stuff like that, they just become statistics, right? Where it has taught me that none of this is about stats. It's about people. helping people and every person has a backstory every person has been through it in somewhere another and they've had good days and bad days and it all contributes to what they're involved with right now in front of you what's presented to you at the moment

Drew I appreciate you coming on the show today man thanks I feel like it flew by I'm like like there's a ton of stuff that still talk about man but like I totally get it like that time flew by yeah hour and 45 minutes we've been for it is fun man Well, that's the thing. Like when you have a good conversation going and you have a good rapport, it's easy to make that time fly. Yeah, it flows so easily. I mean, like, I've done two hour interviews. I've done, you know, three hour and it just like it goes so quickly.

Yeah. Especially with the, I feel like the law enforcement ones, you could sit there for literally days, just, you know, sharing stories. Oh, yeah. The stories could go on and on. Yeah, definitely. But, you know, we're going to get, we're going to get this ruck in a little bit. So we can continue to chop it up. and we can talk about stuff, man.

I'm an open book. I love to share. Yeah, I'm excited to hear more of your stories, man. All right, man. Thank you for your time. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I appreciate you too.