Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Milwaukee Cop For 25 Years — This Is The Dark Side Of The Job | Patrick O'Donnell

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Starting point is 00:01:08 Shop the full collection on Amazon or visit Kierad.com to learn more. And I'm like, holy, this is all happening in seconds. I'm going to have to kill this guy. He's literally running right at me with his knife like this. So if you had to sum it up, say, in a couple sentences, what do you think is the biggest difference between policing back then and now? I just lost my faith in humanity after that. How do they even react when you tell them,

Starting point is 00:01:32 hey, your kid just killed someone? They're 10 years old. Do they care? Patrick O'Donnell spent two decades policing one of the toughest cities in Wisconsin, and the stories he shares here will change the way you think about the job. Patrick, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today. I'm excited to do your show after.

Starting point is 00:01:52 And, you know, big thanks to Steve Murphy for connecting us. I was just going to say, thank you, Steve. you know, that is genuinely one of the nicest guys I've ever met. You know, he could be all full of ego. I mean, look at the cool stuff that he's done in his lifetime. And he's the most humble, down-to-earth guy. I had lunch with him maybe three weeks ago. And, you know, we could call each other, bounce ideas off each other.

Starting point is 00:02:19 He was like, hey, I saw you had that guy on your podcast. Would you mind? Yeah, absolutely. Whatever I can do to help you. That's just the way he is. Yeah, bringing Steve on our show this year was the, best thing that could ever happen to us because he connected us to so many gas law enforcement officers. And I don't know if you know her, but Christy Schiller is the one that connected us to Steve originally.

Starting point is 00:02:41 She's the one that does the canines.org program where they place canines with a variety of, I think, nonprofits and police departments. She trains the dogs. Oh, okay. Yeah. So if you don't know her, she'd be great for your podcast. Yeah, that would be great. I would love that.

Starting point is 00:02:56 Yeah. I'm trying to get her here on mine. She's so busy, but she's really cool. And we just started putting some ad reads for her organization. A part of our way to give back this season is putting nonprofits, like where I got my dog, Bella, and Boone. We're doing ad reads for them and then the K-9 program. I had a dog named Boone. Really?

Starting point is 00:03:14 Yeah, I did. That's a small world. Yeah, Moken Boon. What kind of dog? They were Canaan dogs. Okay. They're from Israel. I never heard of them before.

Starting point is 00:03:23 Long story short, my kid was like 11 years old. He wanted a dog really. bad. I had a Siberian husky and a lab shepherd mix. And they both passed away. I mean, they lived to like 16. So they did, they did pretty good. And the house was just empty. You know, it was like, ah, dad, we need a dog. And my wife back then, she's like, no more dogs. I'm done. I'm done with a hair. I'm like huskies shed like beasts. You know, they're, they're crazy. And Yucanuba and I think Animal Planet and Nat Geo had websites where you just plug in what you want out of a dog.

Starting point is 00:03:58 And it's like, doesn't shed much, you know, is good with kids, you know, blah, blah, blah. And Canaan dog pops up. And he's on the computer and the interweb was kind of new back then. And I'm like, well, I'm pretty impressed you found this. Yeah, they're kind of like tiny German shepherds. Boone was about 70 pounds and Mocha was about 45 pounds. Oh, Boone's Avishala Lab, my boon. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:04:20 He's about, he's like 50 pounds now. I got him when he was only like 28 pounds. I got him the year I got out of prison, he was one. Now he's turned seven. That's awesome. Yeah. So, yeah, my kid, you know, I said, well, that's a rare breed dog. You know, we live in Wisconsin.

Starting point is 00:04:35 I'm sure there isn't any, well, actually, dad, there's one in Rockford, Illinois. There's one in Minneapolis. There's one in Iowa. And I'm like, you're killing me, kid. I said, you know, obviously none of them have, you know, like puppies. Well, the one in Rockford, that's only an hour away from our house, you know, she's got a new litter of puppies, you know, blah, blah. And I'm like, oh, God, you're killing me. So you got to go get the dog.

Starting point is 00:04:54 Yeah, so we went to go look, you know, and then you come back with a dog, and then six months later we came back with Boone. He was such a good dog. That's so cute. He was great. Well, tell the audience about the book that you just gave me. Okay, the good collar. That is the first book in the Michael Quinn saga.

Starting point is 00:05:11 I'm a big fan of Dexter when it was on TV. And they've had like two or three different iterations of that, you know, since it went off. And I thought to myself, what if the serial. killer vigilante was the police chaplain. And I'm like, and it's all set in Milwaukee, you know, and there's characters in there that, you know, I worked with. So there's definitely that air of authenticity. And it just explores, you know, right and wrong. You know, it's like, I'm a cop. I took an oath, you know, but something really bad happens in the beginning of the book that totally twists and turns him. And he's, you know, he was raised a good Irish Catholic boy

Starting point is 00:05:49 like me. And, you know, he's just got all kinds of internal struggle. going on and he discovers that the police chaplain that he's working with is actually a vigilante. So if somebody slips between the cracks of justice, he takes care of business. That's awesome. So, yeah, I started that one and that's my 10th book. And I'm about halfway done with another book that's going to be totally nonfiction. And tentatively, I'm calling it street stories, the rookie years. And all it is is every chapter is a different little story.

Starting point is 00:06:23 of, you know, like some funny, some heartbreaking, some, you know, just the gambit. What's a podcast about? My podcast, it started when I wrote two books called Cops and Writers. I wrote a couple of other books under different pen names because I was an active police officer. And in order to do outside employment, you have to write a memo, get approval from the chief. And I know the chief would just say no, because he wouldn't understand it. You know, this is when self-publishing was kind of kicking off. and I'm like, you know, I think, you know, I can do this.

Starting point is 00:06:56 I wrote a book about how to buy a car because before I was a cop, I sold cars, I bartended, I was a restaurant manager. I did all, you know, paying the bills. I did all kinds of Joe jobs. And one day somebody is like, you know what, you should really write a book on how to buy a car. Because I was a cop, but I would help friends and family buy cars because everybody is scared to death. or just really apprehensive about going to a car dealership still. And I'm like, this is easy. You know, it's not that hard.

Starting point is 00:07:28 So I'm like, yeah, I'll go with you. You know, you can pay me with, you know, take me out tonight, you know, go have a beer or dinner or whatever, you know, a thank you. It was just fine with me. I just want to make somebody else's day a little bit better. And I'm like, yeah, you know what, maybe I'll do that. And I had a lock in on an agent and she was going to pitch it to her publisher in New York. And I had these huge dream of my head was getting huge.

Starting point is 00:07:55 I'm just like, man, I'm going to be a millionaire. I could quit being a cop, you know. I remember I went to international autos, and I'm looking at the Porsches and all these BMWs and all the cool cars. I'm like, this is, this rocks. The next day, my buddy that introduced me to this agent, said, yeah, I had a fallout with, I forget her name. And we're not friends anymore.

Starting point is 00:08:17 And I'm like, okay. So I called her up, like as soon as I hung up the, phone with him. I said, hey, yeah, I hope this doesn't affect our professional relationship. She said, fuck you. She says, any friend of X is no friend of mine. I already threw that shit in the garbage. And I'm like, all right. So, yeah, I was sad panda face for about a week. And I'm just like, this sucks. And I was listening to some podcast. I forget what it was. It's like, you could actually do this yourself. And I'm like, you can. So it was a glorified PDF, it was nothing the right home about. And I actually sold copies of this book. You know,

Starting point is 00:08:57 and it kind of like, it's a light bulb moment. It's like complete strangers don't know me from Adam are paying money to buy this book. That's crazy. To me, that's just nuts. And it kind of spurred something in me because I'm not, I was a terrible student. I mean, I graduated from college. I got kicked out twice. I mean, I never got good grades in school. You know, I was no, you know, I don't have an MFA. I don't, you know, nothing like that. So I thought to myself, okay, I'm going to write more books. And I started going to writers conferences. And inevitably, every writer's conference that I went to, you're at the mixer or the, you know, cocktail hour. And people are coming up to me and say, hey, you're that cop guy, right? And I'm, I was still a cop. And I'm like, yeah, I don't have a

Starting point is 00:09:43 sandwich board on. I'm not advertising it. And they're totally cool. It's like, hey, what I need a search warrant. My character. is doing this. Can they kick the door down? Is this legal? Could they do this? Could they do that? What's the craziest thing you've seen? You know, blah, blah, blah. So somebody that knows a lot more about this stuff is like, dude, you're writing the wrong books. You should write books about police procedure for writers. I'm like, I didn't think about that. So I wrote two books called Cops and Writers. And just real basic, you know, like the first book was the Academy to the street. Okay, this is I become a cop. This is the training. This is the equipment. This is how we talk.

Starting point is 00:10:25 You know, like the 10 codes and all that. And the second book was crime scenes and investigations. And that was, okay, you got a dead body. Who's going to do what and when? You know, so I literally take you by the hand and walk you through all of it. And sure, shit, it's, they sold. I mean, it was just, I was writing books for like four or five years. Just me. It was beer money, you know, whatever. Now of a sudden it's a car payment in utilities, you know, and I'm just like, this is kind of neat. It just popped in my head and I'm like, I got to advertise this somehow. So I tried Facebook ads, Amazon ads, and it's like, there's algorithms you got to worry about,

Starting point is 00:11:06 you know, blah, blah, blah. None of this was simple or easy. And it was way over my pay grade. And I'm like, oh, boy. So I'm like, podcast. I'll just start going on podcasts. So I started going on podcasts. And sure enough, it just exploded.

Starting point is 00:11:24 You know, the podcast was meant to advertise my books, more or less. But then I just started getting really good guests just by word of mouth. And then before I know it, I'm like, hey, this is kind of fun. Then, you know, you go from like a handful of downloads to a thousand downloads to 100,000 downloads. And you're like, now you have advertisers and sponsors. And you're like, this whole thing just. And as you would know, I mean, it's a slow burn. It doesn't have.

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Starting point is 00:13:22 Oh, it's a girl. I'm going in the, I'm finishing up year three right now. Yeah. And I'm just starting to get kind of like my footing. Well, you're doing great. I mean, you have a great story. You have a great, great show. And yeah, you know, it's nothing but hard work.

Starting point is 00:13:39 And it's the same thing with writing books. Yeah, I've interviewed authors. Most of my guests are police officers or some kind of law enforcement that have written books or about to write a book or have a cool story. and I also have cons on there too, you know, that, you know, some really good redemption stories. And, you know, it's just morphed into something else. So you kind of let it grow legs and take off. And you're just kind of watching as it, you know, gallops down the road. You're like, all right, that's kind of cool.

Starting point is 00:14:11 And I started a Facebook group at the same time called Cops and Writers. And it was me, my editor and a couple of buddies. And I'm like, again, to advertise my books. but I offered a service where if you have a law enforcement question and you're a writer, I'll help you. Well, before I know it, I have, it's international. I've got 8,500 people in there. And I was on the cover of the Wall Street Journal.

Starting point is 00:14:36 They did a story about it. And I'm like, at first I thought I was getting punked. And he said, hey, this is, yeah, Rich Tramberg from the Wall Street Journal. I'd really like to do a story about you. And I'm just like, shut up. Who's doing this? He said, no, really, I am. Don't hang up.

Starting point is 00:14:50 And I'm like, oh, okay, and sure shooting. There we go. That's great. Where'd you grow up, Patrick? I was born on the south side of Chicago. The hospital that I was born, did you watch the Blues Brothers? I've heard of them. I first found them when we went to, what was it, Universal Studios.

Starting point is 00:15:11 Okay. And they would have the, like, the reenactments of the Blue Brothers performing. So that was my really first intro to them. Oh, okay. It was one of my favorite movies. But I was born across the street. They did a scene in the Blues Brothers of the park that I used to play at when I was a little kid. So I'm just like, this is so cool.

Starting point is 00:15:29 Both my parents are Irish immigrants. My dad came over when he was 19 and my mom came over when she was 12 with her entire family. My dad came over by himself. They both wound up in Chicago. What they did for work? My dad worked in Derry's almost all of his life. You know, it's funny because my mom and dad were. both born in Ireland in Cal McCraid County Mayo. It's the west end of Ireland. And it was a little

Starting point is 00:15:58 village. I mean, there was no running water, no electricity. You'd go to the community well every morning and get buckets of water. That was your life. There was, like, some had outhouses. Some didn't even have that. I mean, it was dirt poor. My dad started working in a slaughterhouse when he was, like, 11 or 12. He had to help support the family. What about your mom? She didn't work. She did all different kinds of stuff. She went to an all-girls Catholic school in Chicago, and back then, if it was an all-girls school, they would teach you a vocation.

Starting point is 00:16:30 So she learned typing and shorthand. So when she got out of high school, she worked for the Army Corps of Engineers as a civilian, as a clerk typist. And you see like madmen or something like that. They call the secretary and it's like, take a note. You know, that's what she would do. she'd write it in shorthand, then she'd go type it out on her typewriter.

Starting point is 00:16:53 You know, so she was, that's what she did. Then when they started having kids, they, she stopped working. And my dad worked like for 70, 80 hours a week. He was just, but I'll back up a little bit. My grandpa, my mom's dad, was an elevator operator, downtown Chicago. He had two choices of jobs when he first came to this country. One was an elevator operator downtown Chicago. or a janitor on an Indian reservation in Arizona.

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Starting point is 00:18:53 Support the show by mentioning us at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. I would have picked the Indian reservation. That would have been, I think, more interesting. The Irish guys with Sun? No, in Arizona, we burn, man. Yeah, it's like, no, nope, nope, nope, no. It's like, we're going to Chicago.

Starting point is 00:19:10 So it's interesting. He was a butler for an English sergeant major when they lived in Ireland. and they worked him like a dog. He was working like 16, 18 hours a day for nothing. They just treated him like garbage. So he's like, screw this. We're moving to America.

Starting point is 00:19:28 So he could only afford to send himself. And he moved to New Jersey. And he lived with an uncle who was a police captain. And he did that for a year, saved up all of his money, then sent the rest of the family over my mom, her sister, you know, their mom and a couple of cousins, I think. And they came over on the boat. And my mom says, I remember seeing the Statue of Liberty, you know, coming into the Harvard.

Starting point is 00:19:54 But Alice Island was closed that day. So they went somewhere else. Otherwise, they would have wound up at Alice Island. My dad flew on an airplane, which was huge. He sold a bull. And that was his airfare. And it was a four, four engine, you know, prop airplane. And two of the engines quit over the Atlantic.

Starting point is 00:20:13 So it's like, are we closer to Shannon? or are we closer to New York? That's how they figured I was like, we're going to New York. So he flew into New York and took the train to Chicago. And like I said, my grandpa worked in the skyscraper in Chicago. And it was a huge union building. In Chicago, the way things work is, if you want to be an electrician, you join the union first. You want to be a plumber.

Starting point is 00:20:38 You join the union first. They'll find you a job. So my grandpa's like, hey, I have a prospective son-in-law coming over from Ireland. What do you think? So he had offers from the electrician union, the plumber union, and the dairy union. And he was a farmer. So he's like, yeah, I'll take the dairy union. So he had little to no education.

Starting point is 00:20:59 And he worked his way up from washing milk bottles in the wooden crates to being the vice president of the company. Wow. My dad is super smart. I mean, he's got a mind like a computer. It's frightening how smart that guy is. What were some values he instilled in you as a kid? Hard work. I mean, everything was hard work and honesty.

Starting point is 00:21:18 He was a very, very honest guy. And just like I told you, I never saw him growing up. You know, he would work Monday through Friday, and then he'd work overtime on weekends. So we, I really didn't see him that much. A funny story about that is I turned 16. And what happened was we're in Chicago, then we moved to the suburbs,

Starting point is 00:21:41 then we moved to Wisconsin when I was a freshman in high school because the dairy closed. So I'm 16 years old. We're in Wisconsin. And I'm 16 and he's like in my dad's home, which is unusual. Usually he was at work. He said, son, hop in the car. I'm like, this is going to be the best day ever.

Starting point is 00:22:00 I get to hang out with my pops. This is going to be great. He drove me to every business in Fort Atkinson. That's where we wound up, this little town of about like 10,000 people getting job applications. He says, you think I'm going to let you sit on your ass. He says, you're a man now. You're 16. You go to work. I said, what about school? And he's like, yeah, you can go to school too, but work is number one. I'm like, all right, off I went. If there's one thing you could change about your childhood, what do you think that would be?

Starting point is 00:22:34 I don't think I would. You know, it molded me into who I am. I'm certainly not perfect. but you know our childhoods do mold us you know into what we are maybe a little less strict my mom was like a drill sergeant it's so funny my wife now she's like you're still scared of her aren't you i'm like absolutely she's four foot 10 90 pounds soaking wet and i'm petrified of that woman yeah when i was growing up if you were in the shower no more than two or three minutes she'd be banging on the door he's like you think water's free water isn't free that costs money and she just i'm coming in i'm like no you're not I'm a teenager. No, you're not.

Starting point is 00:23:12 You know, we couldn't have our doors closed in our bedrooms. You know, we had zero privacy, no food, no drink. Your bed was made. I mean, you couldn't have a sock on the floor. Everything. It was like growing up in a basic training or boot camp. Yeah, it was just you ate in the kitchen. You didn't eat in the living room.

Starting point is 00:23:30 Yeah, I mean, just, and there was no privacy, zero. You know, I'm a 16-year-old kid. We have one phone in the house. This is before cell phones. It was a kitchen phone with a long. chord and I'm trying to ask like a girl out my mom would be like oh god my first two years of college I lived at home which was a huge mistake if that's maybe that's the one thing I would change because I was working full time and I was going to school full time which looking back

Starting point is 00:24:00 that's probably why I got kicked out a couple of times because you know I'm I'm a kid you know I want to go have fun I'm I'm partying I'm working and I'm going to school. Something's going to bend. So, of course, school is the one that's going to bend. But, yeah, I'm at home and I'm trying to call a girl to ask her out. My mom, we stood right next to me. I'm like, my, isn't there something you should be doing right now?

Starting point is 00:24:23 Couldn't you lay it? Like, no, nope. And if I got mail sheet open it. I mean, it was zero privacy. What was your career in life aspirations when you were in high school? If you had any. I really didn't. You know, I was working in a grocery.

Starting point is 00:24:40 stores. That's how I, in high school, my first job was being a bagger, you know, bagging people's groceries and helping them out with their groceries, you know, and then stocking shelves, and I worked in produce. Then I worked my way up to night manager when I was in college. And it was actually a good job. I was half thinking about just staying in that because I was making, this was in the mid to late 80s, I was making almost 10 bucks an hour. That was good money. I had more money than any of my friends because I was working so much. I always had the best beer. I always had, you know, the best food, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And I paid my way through college except for my last semester. I was broke. You know, I went to my dad and I'm like, I got to eat some crow right now.

Starting point is 00:25:25 You know, and I'm like, pops. I said, I got to graduate. I'm like nine credits away from graduating. Could you help me? He says, how much? I'm like, be about $1,000. And he's like, could you loan me the money? And he's like, I'll do you one better. I'll just give it to you if you graduate. And I said, cool. But you got to move back home. And I'm like, what?

Starting point is 00:25:47 I said, dad, at the time I was engaged. You know, I'm going to get married. You know, and he says, I don't care. He says, if you want the money and you want to graduate, you got to move back home. That didn't work out so super awesome. But you know what? I graduated and everything turned out okay. Was there ever a moment in your childhood or teenage years where life could

Starting point is 00:26:07 went a completely different path than what you ended up taking? Oh, God, yes. I was a little hellion. I mean, my grandpa, my mom's dad, I had a great relationship with him. When I graduated from eighth grade, he gave me a pair of brass knuckles. He's like, you might need these. And I'm like, okay, you know, my brother and I were drinking when we were like 11, 12 years old. You know, we'd play bartender for mom and dad.

Starting point is 00:26:33 And we weren't out drinking or anything like that. But it's an Irish house. Everybody drinks. That's just the way it is. Then I'm in high school. I'm a 16 year old kid and I was a punk. I mean, I wasn't like disrespecting people or whatever,

Starting point is 00:26:47 but I had a wicked Irish temper and, you know, seventh, eighth grade, I knocked a couple of kids out. I knocked one kid's tooth out of his front tooth, boom, right out. And I remember we're taking the long march to Sister

Starting point is 00:26:59 Teresa's office and he's holding his tooth and he's got like paper towel wadded up in his gum. And I'm like, I'm so screwed. Oh. I'm so screwed. So you knock on the door and say, come in, boys. And I was like, yes, sister.

Starting point is 00:27:14 Sit down. Who started it? And the kid holds his tooth. I did. And he's like, Patrick, you can leave. I'm like, no shit. I'm sprinting out that door. Yeah, I, that's a felony.

Starting point is 00:27:27 I knocked another kid out. I mean, I never, I didn't do it. Yeah, I wouldn't pick fights. I wasn't a bully. But if I saw somebody else being bullied, I would just jump in and just, yeah. I, but again, it's the temper. I would never start it, but I would finish it. And I would usually go off the top.

Starting point is 00:27:45 So here I am, fast forward. I'm 16 years old. I'm going to school. I always had a fifth of Jack Daniels in the glove box. I'm smoking camel straights. You know, I thought it was a tough guy, you know, from Chicago. I was known as, you know, the hoodlum from Chicago. You know, a lot of the girls and stuff wouldn't date me because they thought, yeah, this guy's, you know.

Starting point is 00:28:06 Trouble. Yes, exactly. And in reality, I was just a pudgy, out of shape, awkward teenage kid trying to, you know, do whatever. But, yeah, I mean, morning would be a camel straight, maybe a little shot of Jack Daniels and a pop tart on the way to school. You know, that was my life. You know, so we had open lunch, which is a huge mistake, I think, because what did we do? We went out and got into trouble at lunchtime. Yeah, I was drag racing all the time.

Starting point is 00:28:34 I love cars. So I'm going like 130 miles an hour. I'm in this muscle car. I'm drag racing my friend down these country roads. And we're done doing it. I get stopped by the cops for going 68 and a 55. And I'm just like, five minutes ago, I was going to 130. And I'm like, oh, shit.

Starting point is 00:28:54 And so I think about, you know, it's like, things could have really went off differently for me. Yeah. So it's like, oh, I'm glad I never got caught because, you know, I did stupid shit. I'll kids do stupid stuff when they're young. But the police stuff was kind of in the back of my head for a long time because you watched all the TV shows. Starsky and Hutch, Beretta, Hill Street Blues, all these, like, cool old police stories. And I always thought that would be kind of cool. So that was one thing I was thinking.

Starting point is 00:29:28 It's like, yeah, that would be neat. I wouldn't mind being a cop. And the house next to us got raided. I was like 13, 14 years old. houses are like super close to each other. And I don't know why. I look out the window and there's just a stack of squad cars. And I'm just like, oh, I hope they're not coming for my parents, you know,

Starting point is 00:29:49 or dad, what are you up to, you know, whatever. My mom was like, oh, what's going on? She has a thick iron shack son they both do. I'm like, I don't know, but there's cops everywhere. And we look in our backyard. There's two cops in tack gear. One's got an M-16. The other one's got a shotgun.

Starting point is 00:30:03 I'm just like pointing at our neighbor's house. And it's like, oh, they're doing a radar. on our neighbors. So they go in the stack, boom, the door goes down. They're pulling people out by their hair. And I'm like right up against it. And I'm just like, that's the coolest stuff ever. That's what I want to do when I grow up, you know.

Starting point is 00:30:23 So my mom was like, she was shocked too. It's like, man, that is so cool. And I'm like, all right, you got me sold. Did you think about the military at all? I did. I have an older brother. And he went in the Marine Corps. And he blew his knee out.

Starting point is 00:30:39 He had a bad knee to begin with. This is the 80s and they were super shady. You know, recruiters would tell you anything to get that number, to get that pulse, to get that warm body. And they're like, yeah, you're going to be an MP. You know, life is going to be great. And he told him about it. He had a bad knee. He had surgery on it when he was in high school.

Starting point is 00:31:01 He was, fine. He was overweight. You know, he's like my height. And he probably weighed close to 300 pounds. And I'm like, and it's like, we'll get you into shape. He couldn't do one pull-up. And Marine Corps pull-ups are huge. You know, that's a big part of it.

Starting point is 00:31:18 And there was no preparation. He goes there. He's there for like two weeks, three weeks. And he blows out his knee in a run. It was the size of a volleyball. So they gave him a choice. You could have an honorable medical discharge or you could get it operated on here. Then you have to do other rehab.

Starting point is 00:31:36 have, then you have to go through boot camp again. So he's like, I'll just get out, you know. But he had been there for a while. It was more than three weeks. It was more than three weeks. He was like halfway done with training with boot camp. And he got a hold of a phone, which is super illegal. You know, being in prison and being in boot camp are very, very similar.

Starting point is 00:31:56 There's a lot of stuff you can't do. You don't have access. But he got a phone. He's like, are you still thinking about joining the Marines? I'm like, yeah, yeah. He says, don't do it. I'm like, why? He says, they lied to me.

Starting point is 00:32:05 I'm like, they lie to you? How can they lie to you? He says, they told me that now my new job is going to be sweeping warehouses. I'm going to have nothing to do with being an MP, you know, blah, blah, blah. You're going to do what we need you to do. And I'm like, I was such, I was so naive. I'm like, really? They can do that?

Starting point is 00:32:23 I'm like, well, so much for that. And I'm not going to, I'm not going to join if they're going to lie to me. So you decide to apply to college after that? Yeah. What was your major in college? Did you have one? I started out as a music major. Really?

Starting point is 00:32:35 Yes, I was going to be a band director. Did you know anything about music before? Oh, yeah, yeah. In high school and in grammar school, I played saxophone. I played alto and baritone sax. I played in jazz bands. I love jazz. And things were going great until we moved to Fort Atkinson.

Starting point is 00:32:56 And the band program there, you know, it's public school. It wasn't very good. I mean, it was okay. But I went to college. I started out as a music major, and it was all these dinky little, like, one and two credit classes. It was like, okay, class piano one, class piano two. And they, I just didn't mix with the people that were there. They're all like goth.

Starting point is 00:33:21 They're all wearing black, and they all look sad. And you know, they're just like, and I'm wearing my work clothes. You know, I'm about to unload trucks, you know, when I get off of, you know, in school, or I just got down unloading trucks. I didn't look like them. I didn't act like them. It was just, it just didn't meld. And I'm like, that's not for me.

Starting point is 00:33:40 And I don't have a voice. And you'd have to take, like, all these singing classes. And I'm like, nobody wants to hear me sing. Yeah. So I switched. I went to sociology. I have a degree in sociology. My minor was criminal justice.

Starting point is 00:33:54 And I have, I'm just like three or four credits shy of a minor in music. So, all right. But the thing that it did for me, though, was I had a professor that, was really cool. Dr. Berger. He was from Boston. He talked with a Boston accent. And he actually got shot. He was working in a liquor store to help pay for college. And he got held up. And he was wearing a real thick leather jacket. He said it was really cold. And he heard a bang. And he didn't feel anything. You know, the robber goes away, you know, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, he's like, I don't feel so great. You know, the cops are there. And they're like, are you okay, son?

Starting point is 00:34:32 I don't know. And he looks, his shot, but the leather jacket saved him. It still went into the skin and it's lodged in him. But he, yeah, and they never took it out. They're like, it's not hurting anything, so we're not going to take the bullet out. But he set up an internship with me for the Milwaukee County Sheriff's Department. And after I did that for a summer, I was hooked. I'm just like, I would do this shit for free.

Starting point is 00:34:58 This is so much fun. Oh, my gosh. So what happens after the internship? You just keep on going to college. You know, it's, I applied, but back then you had to be a resident just to, to get the job. So I wasn't a Milwaukee County resident. So it's kind of like, eh. And back then, you had to work in the county jail for years before you'd ever see the road.

Starting point is 00:35:26 Now they have correction officers working in the county jail. It's a different beast altogether, the way they have. have it set up. So I'm like, eh, I worked in the jail as an intern, and I'm like, I don't want to do this for years. This sucks. You know, it just, I remember the aroma. The first day was summertime. I walk in there, there was no air conditioning. It was this old building. And they put me on the tier that had all the crazies, all the super violent people, you know, blah, blah, blah. And it was just the wave of body odor, shit and piss. You know, you're just like, oh yeah do i want to be on this all the time i'm like no well thank you so but i did get on the

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Starting point is 00:38:04 I'm like, under the seat in the Chevy Caprice in the vaccine. They're like, duck. And I'm like, like, bam, bang, bam, bang, bam. I'm like, okay. You don't have to tell me twice. You know, this is back when even the cops really didn't wear vests, not in the 80s. Do you think working in the jail as a requirement is beneficial for police officers? With hindsight, yes, because you learn how to talk to people. You know, you're outnumbered like 200, 300 to 1, and you're not armed. You got your radio where you could call for help, maybe. But, you know, you learn respect.

Starting point is 00:38:44 And it's like, you know what? Of course there's going to be anomalies. Of course there's going to be some people that don't care, you know, inmates that are like, yeah, you're the police, you know, whatever. But I'm a firm believer, and I've seen this on the street time and time again. You treat people with respect. Usually it's reciprocated, usually. So that's a big part of working in the jail. What did your parents think about this internship and how you were changing up your path?

Starting point is 00:39:10 My mom was scared to death. My dad was getting recruited to be in the Chicago PD. And they had a recruiter and was like, here's a six, my dad's six foot. you know, back then he was about 200 pounds. He was a big, like, farm kid. And the Chicago P.J is like, hey, we'd like you. You know, you're a big Irish farm kid, you know, I was like, that would be cool. He went for the physical and his finger almost got cut off.

Starting point is 00:39:40 He was using a bandsaw when he worked in the slaughterhouse. And the nearest hospital was like an hour away. Only like three people that worked there had a car. So he went in the car. They didn't have an ambulance. So he's like holding his finger together. It was just hanging on by like a thread. They go to the hospital and they totally Frankenstein his finger back together.

Starting point is 00:40:00 I mean, it's not even close to being like normal. So they took one look at his, and there was his trigger finger. They're like, no, thanks, but no thanks. So he almost became a cop. Yeah, he came super close. Wow. He came super close. He loved the police stuff.

Starting point is 00:40:15 So what happens next? Okay. So I graduated from college. I get married like three or four months right after I graduate from college. And I'm working at Pizza Hut. Again, degree in sociology. You know, I'm qualified to be a restaurant manager. I'm qualified to work at IHOP.

Starting point is 00:40:36 Yeah, I worked at IHop, 24-7 restaurant in downtown Madison. I got into more fights at IHop than I ever did in 25 years of working in the inner city in Milwaukee. Oh my God. It was crazy villas. I mean, but I learned how to talk to drunks. I learned how to stand up for myself. You know, and we were also a block away from an outpatient mental health institute. So we had, for a lesser word, crazies coming in on the regular.

Starting point is 00:41:07 We had homeless people coming in on the regular, drunk college kids, foreign students, uh, athletes, you know, because it was the badgers, you know, they football players, basketball players, they had posseys. I mean, it was, it was a thing back then. So I learned a lot, but, you know, the owner wanted to go into federal prison. Of the I have? Yes. For what?

Starting point is 00:41:32 He had two franchises. He was a franchisee. He had two restaurants. And when I first got hired, he was there all the time. Then slowly but surely, he was just kind of like stepping away. And I'm like, all right, well, I prefer to work by myself anyways. Yeah, I don't need him around. And he'd call, like, it got to the point where you'd just call like once a week just for the numbers, you know, how's everything going, blah, blah, blah.

Starting point is 00:41:57 And of course, it's the restaurant business. So Janie doesn't like Susie, you know, Fred is screwing with Janie, you know, they used to be going on with Sue. It's always high drama. It's restaurants. Nothing has ever changed. So it was a Friday night and I'm busy. It's like 10 o'clock at night. And I worked close to 80 hours a week.

Starting point is 00:42:16 I worked all three shifts. And I was getting sick. the job. And two guys come in in suits and I noticed the badges and the guns and I'm just like, can I help you? They were with the IRS. He was taking the money out of our paychecks for taxes and not paying the government for, yeah, he just skipped that little part of paying Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam has no sense of humor when it comes to that zero. So they're like, that's the till? I'm like, you're registered? I'm like, yeah, we're going to be taking it. I said the whole thing. Yep.

Starting point is 00:42:50 I'm like, okay, we'll write your receipt. You got a safe? Yeah, upstairs. How much money you got in there? Like 900 bucks, 800 bucks. We're taking that to. Where's Dale? And I'm like, I honestly don't know.

Starting point is 00:43:04 Right. I said, really? I get phone calls. I haven't seen him in like two months. All right. They caught up with him. He went away. So that ended your I hop career?

Starting point is 00:43:15 Yes, it did. So I'm just like, whoo. It was like, like, that's, I was like getting released from jail. But I, um, I wound up selling cars. I loved cars.

Starting point is 00:43:24 My ex-wife was like, hey, there's an ad in the paper that needs salesmen. I'm like, all right, I'll give it a whirl. And at the same time, I was trying for different police jobs.

Starting point is 00:43:33 So you'd make the decision that you're going to go into policing? Yeah. Yeah. After putting it on ice for that period of time, uh, at I hop. I was still testing. I tested for the fire department in Madison too because I thought,

Starting point is 00:43:45 oh, everybody loves a firefighter. So, excuse me. So I took the PT test for the fire department and I passed, but I broke my thumb doing it. There's an attic crawl. You wear the turnout gear, the bottle. And it's like to simulate an attic.

Starting point is 00:44:03 And you're on all fours and it's just two by fours. So you're balancing on these two by fours. And I made it down there in record time. I was in great shape. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I got to turn around. I didn't think about that part. Yes. I was like real awkward.

Starting point is 00:44:18 my hand was down like that and I put my knee down there. I heard snap and I'm like, oh, but I still finish and I still passed. But they were looking for people who were, they had like fire science degrees and all that. So, oh well, but I was trying. The competition back then was really tough for law enforcement jobs. You know, I took the test from Milwaukee when I was 26. I didn't get on until I was 30. I was on a waiting list for four years.

Starting point is 00:44:46 Wow. They don't have those days now. No, no, they do not. Now they're basically on the street asking for jobs. But I remember when I took the written test, there was like 3, 4,000 people for the written. And that was just one of them. You know, they had them for like days for like 3, 400 jobs. So if you had to sum it up, say, in a couple sentences, what do you think is the biggest difference between policing back then and now why there's just such a that big gap in, you know, in hiring?

Starting point is 00:45:14 Well, back then, the economy kind of sucked. So at its basic level, it's a good job. You won't get rich, but you could support a family, have a house. And there was the golden goose at the end of a pension where a lot of other jobs didn't have that. So there was that attraction, and hey, it's cool to be a cop. Public opinion was a lot higher of police officers. There was no body cameras. There was no squad cameras.

Starting point is 00:45:43 There was no cops. There was no everybody kind of, not everybody, but a lot of people kind of idolize them and kind of put them up on a pedestal. And then people saw that once all the cameras came and all that, they found out, oh, they're human beings. They have flaws. They do stupid shit sometimes, you know, et cetera. And all of a sudden, you know, beware when you start falling in love with your heroes or whatever. And then you find out that, you know, they're people. They do stupid stuff every now and then.

Starting point is 00:46:12 And that's just the way life is. So do you think these incidents that have happened? I know they're, you know, one in a bunch, but the incidents that do happen, do you think they've always existed? Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. But and then, you know, the incidents, obviously with social media, we didn't have social media when I started. It was just the nightly news.

Starting point is 00:46:35 And, you know, social media, you know, they're just going to show, what, five, six seconds of the absolute worst part of whatever that encompassed. was they're not going to show this guy MFing, this female cop for 20 minutes as she's trying to de-escalate them, you know, et cetera. You know, they're not going to show the crowd that's forming around these cops. And you're like, okay, this ain't cool. This could go south really quick. So tell us about day one of becoming a cop, what that was like. Once you're finally in, that was with the Milwaukee PD?

Starting point is 00:47:04 Yeah, the city of Milwaukee. So I go to the academy. And the academy used to be in all-girls Catholic high school. I know. You can't stay away from the Catholic schools. I know. Hey, it's in me, man. So one half, when you walk through the doors, if you went to the left, that was the fire academy.

Starting point is 00:47:21 If you walked to the right, that was the police academy. And it was Monday through Friday, 8 to 4, which I thought I died and went to heaven. I never had a job like that before. And I'm like, and they were paying you. And I'm like, wow, they're paying us to be here? And I'm like, and I never made more money. I started at 26,000 a year. I thought, man, I'm living large.

Starting point is 00:47:43 This is this is huge money. I've got health insurance. I've got benefits. I'm like, I never had any of that. But when I did work in the grocery stores, I should back up. I was a teamster for a while. So I had really good union benefits with the groceries, with the grocery store. So it's my first day and I drove from Madison.

Starting point is 00:48:05 I lived in Madison. So it was like an hour away. So I, of course, you know, I got up at the ass crack of dawn. And I'm like, I can't be late. You can't be late for that. So I woke up like an hour earlier than I had to be. I was there an hour. I was just waiting in the parking lot, you know, for like an hour.

Starting point is 00:48:22 I go in there and they're like, all right, come in the room. You already have your uniform. And they're the dorkees uniforms in the world. They're like, they're like blue mechanic uniforms that have the patch sewn. You don't get a real badge. It's like a patch. And you have a little baseball hat. And the whole, your first day is this is how you march.

Starting point is 00:48:46 This is how you do a left turn, right turn, you know, left face, right face, attention, parade rest. Very military-ish. And you get all of your equipment. And it's hurry up and wait. You know, it's like, hurry, hurry, hurry, you're at this one station. Here's all your books, you know, because there's a whole lot of class work that goes into this. And then, okay, here's your gun belt. Let's call it Sam Brown.

Starting point is 00:49:11 Well, you don't get your gun until the very end. You can't take it home until the very, very end. And firearms starts like maybe two or three months, two months after you're in there. So the first day is just, then the swearing end, the chief comes in, gives his spiel, you know, the mayor comes in. He gives his spiel. You get sworn in your first day. Technically, you're a cop on the first day. They're like, do not go out and start making arrests.

Starting point is 00:49:38 You don't know what you're doing. You don't know your head from your ass yet. It is like the furthest thing from my mind, I don't want any part of that, man. I don't know what I'm doing. So you're technically a cop, but you're not. And it's like, okay, second day, you fall in for inspection. And, you know, they're looking to see if there's any lint on your uniform. Did you shave?

Starting point is 00:50:01 You know, your hair or your shoes shine. They literally go one by one and they look down at your feet, look up at your head, and look down again. You know, so it's military-ish that way. Then I remember it's like, all right, you got five minutes, fall out, getting your PT clothes, be in the gym in five minutes. So everyone's like running down the stairs, ripping their clothes off as they're running down the stairs. You get into your PT gear, which is a shorts and a T-shirt and gym shoes, and you're all lined up in there. And they, the first, so this is the second day, they do a baseline test to see what kind of, what fitness level you're at. So one of the first thing was pushups.

Starting point is 00:50:41 I could do pushups till the cows come home. So I stop at like 75 and they give you like two minutes. And I'm just in a front leaning rest. Instructor comes running over to me. He's like, what are you doing, O'Donnell? I'm like, resting. And he's like, you don't rest here? There isn't going to be any theme music when you're running down an alley after some shitbagged at 2 o'clock in the morning with a gun.

Starting point is 00:51:06 give me more and I was like yes or yes or yes or yeah I'm like theme music what does that even mean I don't understand you know it's like okay so sit up same thing I I aced everything then the run came you had to run a mile and a half in under 12 minutes it was January in Wisconsin so running outside was out of the question so you're running in a gym so you're like leaning like this the whole time I don't know how many times around that is but it's a lot I'm like nine even halfway done, I get a cramp in my calf. I go down like a ton of bricks and I'm like, oh, I'm done. My whole career is shot right now because I have a cramp.

Starting point is 00:51:47 And one of the sergeants comes running over and she was like maybe five foot. And she's got this medical pack on her shoulder that's bigger than her, this huge, she was a paramedic too. She said, what's wrong with you? And I said, cramp really bad. She said, get up. So I get out. She said, walk it off.

Starting point is 00:52:05 But I failed. She said, you already failed. And I'm like, am I done? She said, no, you get two more kicks at the cat. One in the middle and then one at the very end. I'm like, I thought I was done. I'm like, all right, all right, sounds good. So I walked it off.

Starting point is 00:52:24 And that was like the first and second day in the academy. Wow. And do they pair you with a, once you graduate and you actually start, do they pair you with a training officer back then? Yes. Yeah. They still do it the same way. You have a field training officer.

Starting point is 00:52:38 You're still considered a recruit. So you're wearing the normal uniform. Like somebody on the street wouldn't know if you're a recruit or not until they start talking to you. Then they'd know it. But I started in high inside. I'm so happy they did it this way. I started in like one of the worst neighborhoods in the country, not just the city, but like the country. There was a shooting every night.

Starting point is 00:53:01 It was just crazyville USA. And but as a new cop, I'm like, this is so cool. We're chasing people every night. I mean, we're responding to shootings every night. We're just crime, crime, crime, crime, crime. It was just run, run, run, run, run. So I had an FTO for six weeks on late shift, which was midnight to eight.

Starting point is 00:53:23 And then I did six weeks of early power, which was 11 in the morning until 7 p.m. with a different field training officer. Then when I was done with that, then I got kicked back to late shift. What was the first major crime you responded to? Oh, this is a great story. So I am on field training for like maybe two days, if, and we get a call for a stabbing. I was on the wagon with Reggie. Reggie was a great cop.

Starting point is 00:53:50 He was from the hood. He knew everybody. I mean, he just talked a mile a minute. That guy, he had such good police instincts. He was just, he was the perfect guy for that job. He was great at training people. So we're on the wagon. and, you know, for lack of better words, a paddy wagon.

Starting point is 00:54:09 And the dispatcher tried not to give us too many assignments because we had to be available if somebody was fighting. Your main job was if you had a prisoner that didn't want to go to jail, you put them in the wagon. So the wagon guys would come. So, yeah, it's like seven in the morning. I'm like, I just want to go home, you know? I'm tired.

Starting point is 00:54:27 And it's like 95R. And the dispatcher's like, sorry to do this to you. And we're like, well, that ain't good when the dispatcher is like, you know, apologizing before she gives out the assignment. It's like start head to the stabbing, you know, blah, blah, blah, north 12 streets. So suspect is a black male, early 20s, white t-shirt, baggy black jeans, arm with a butcher knife.

Starting point is 00:54:50 And he's like, okay, we're like a block away. What do you think is running at us? Blackmail, now the white t-shirt is covered in blood and he still has the knife. And I'm like, and Reggie just slams on the brain. breaks that are like, er, I hop out, I draw down on the dude, and he's running at me with this butcher knife. I don't know if you know a lot about guns, but your trigger finger is always off and outside the trigger guard until you want it to make, till it goes boom, until you want it to go boom. And I'm like, holy shit, this is all happening in seconds. I'm going to have to kill this guy.

Starting point is 00:55:25 He's literally running right at me with this knife like this. So I transitioned. I'm aimed square at his chest, you know, center mass, and I'm like, oh, this is a nice. career, you know, it's going to be over with really soon. And then I said something or he saw, we locked eyes. And I think he could tell I was probably more scared than he was. Yeah, I'm just like, holy shit. And he's like, holy shit. And he drops the knife, gets on his face, we hook him up. And my training officer, you know, he comes over, puts him in handcuffs. We take him in the back of the wagon. He said, usually they're running the other direction. They're not running towards us. they're running away from us.

Starting point is 00:56:05 And I like, make sense. This guy was just freaking out because he just stabbed his buddy. So guy is in the back of an ambulance. We call the med units. Paramedics are working on them. There's two IVs. I'm like, that ain't a good sign. They got his feet way up in the air.

Starting point is 00:56:20 I'm like, okay, he's going into shock. He was stabbed in the armpit. And I didn't know it at that time, but you don't want to get shot or stabbed in the armpit. There's no protection there. You know, there's a bunch of arteries, like pulmonary arteries and stuff. you'll bleed out from the inside. So they're squeezing the IV bag. They're trying to get fluids in the sky.

Starting point is 00:56:39 And I'm like, so Reggie's like, hop in the wagon, get a dying declaration. He's going to, he's probably going to die. I'm like, okay. And I'm like, dying declaration. We talked about it once when I was in the academy. I really, I didn't know when I was doing it. So it's more or less you have to say, hey, you're going to die. Tell me who did this to you.

Starting point is 00:56:57 I mean, we know who did it. But if it ever went, went to court, you know, blah, blah, blah. It helps with the case. I'm like, dude. You're going to die. Tell me who killed you. And the paramedics are like, hey, want to cut us some slack? We're still working on them.

Starting point is 00:57:11 We'd like to save them. You know, I was like, all right. So we got to the hospital. Level one trauma center. It's so good. It's amazing to watch these medical people work in concert. It was a teaching college. It was freighter.

Starting point is 00:57:28 It was doying back then. It's a level one. Like if the president's in town gets shot, that's where he's going to go. So there's a head doctor that's like a symphony conductor with all these other doctors, texts, nurses, they strip you naked. One of the first things they do is roll you over on your side and they shove a finger up your butt. And I'm like, later on, I ask, I'm like, why are you, every trauma victim, they do that.

Starting point is 00:57:51 I'm like, why are you doing that? They're like to see if there's blood. If you're bleeding internally, sometimes, you know, comes out your butt. And I'm like, didn't think of that. All right. So they're working on this guy. things start calming down and I asked the doctor

Starting point is 00:58:06 he walks over towards me and I said hey is he going to make it? He said if it was you or I would be dead. This guy's going to live to 100. I'm like oh okay so he dies they bring him back mostly with medicine you know adrenaline and you know etc etc

Starting point is 00:58:23 they're working work and working he dies again working working working now over an hour has gone by he dies again flat lines. Doctor grabs a scalpel, cuts open his chest, flaps it open, breaks his ribs, and starts doing open heart massage. And I'm like from me to you right now, watching all of this. And I'm like,

Starting point is 00:58:46 my jaw is on the ground. I'm like, holy shit, this is crazy. So, you know, eventually the guy died. He succumbed. He lost way too much blood. And it was just really sad. You know, this is over a card game. They were all drunk. They were high. They're just stupid. And, you know, eventually homicide detectives got there, the medical examiner got there, well, the investigator from the medical examiner's office. And we're all walking out with the body because they have the, we call them the body snatchers. They're guys that the county would subcontract to take bodies away and take them to the morgue. And, you know, they actually, they do the tow tag, the whole shooting match, put them in a body bag. So I see all that. And I see two nurses. We're in the ambulance bay and there's a door

Starting point is 00:59:39 open. They're both drinking coffee, white styrofoam cups. These are battle-hardened nurses. You know, they've seen it all. One's smoking a cigarette. And one, the other one, just started crying. She just broke down. She had enough. And we like locked eyes and I'm like, oh. Wow. So I remember driving home because I didn't get done with work till like three or four o'clock that day. You know, and I'm just driving home. I'm exhausted. But I'm so excited. I'm just like, I almost killed somebody. I watched a guy die. Now I just, I had to write a ton of reports about it. And I'm like, is this my job? This is. You said this place was steps from the water. We just haven't found the steps yet.

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Starting point is 01:01:47 give you energy, and keep you satisfied longer. So keep it real. Look for the seal. Real California milk. Wow. So, yeah, that was like my first week. Why did you decide to get back on the saddle after witnessing a moment like that so early on your career? Like, what's the mental, the mentality behind it?

Starting point is 01:02:09 I think most cops are adrenaline junkies. And I was no different. And you're like, if that was yesterday, what's today going to be? I was like, wow, I want to find out. How do you think that moment shaped your career? Do you think it taught you anything? It taught me a bunch because I had buddies that didn't have a homicide for like months. or weeks. And I had one like right away. I mean, there's a misnomer of, you know, it's like,

Starting point is 01:02:36 especially in small towns, it's like, I've never pulled my gun out of its holster. My gun was out of its holster the first day. And it wasn't, you know, I'm not just going up to everybody, you know, just doing that kind of silly stuff. You're in harm's way that much in certain areas of the country. You have to be like that. So it kind of molded me to like, like I said before, what's next? This is kind of cool. I want to. want to see more. I want to do more. What came next? That really shocked you. That shocked me. On field training, you know, it was a, um, we had an incident. I was with Reggie again. And I was just off field training. Like I said, I did six weeks on late shift.

Starting point is 01:03:23 Then I did six weeks on early power. I still got to see cool stuff on early power. But it, I was still kind of naive. Even a Chicago boy, I said dead. I saw my first dead body when I was like 11 or 12. It was a homicide in front of my grandparents house. But, and I thought I was all like worldly and I wasn't. I didn't know shit. And yeah, I was at a homicide on early power.

Starting point is 01:03:49 We're just doing crowd control. And this conversion van rolls down the road pretty fast. And there's a lady in her housecoat and slippers. And she's like, There he is, there he is. And we're like, what? He killed that boy. He killed that boy.

Starting point is 01:04:03 We're like, so this is my first day that my FTO let me drive the squad car. And I'm like, holy shit, okay. So now I'm chasing after a homicide suspect in the squad car. So finally he pulls over and I'm like, well, that's weird. And my FTO's like, hmm. So we thought, oh, we're going to play a couple. So my FTO went to the driver's side door. And that was his cover.

Starting point is 01:04:25 And the windows were down and all I could smell was marijuana. I mean, just it was so strong and he's just like he looks at both of us and he's like she he's like all right the van was packed with bales of marijuana he had nothing to do with this homicide but i never seen that much dope before i never seen that the amount of drugs that were in that city was unbelievable i was just like holy shit and just the there was almost no compassion for humans there was like the whole thought of like being nice to your fellow man wasn't there for a lot of people. It was it was it was it was so different for me.

Starting point is 01:05:09 I was just like, wow, this is this is crazy. Why do you think that wasn't there? It was also one of the poorest sections of the city. A lot of single family homes. I mean single family single families where it's mom and four or five kids. And usually it's going to be mom has. two or three jobs trying to support all these kids. Dad has nothing to do with them.

Starting point is 01:05:33 He's absentee, and it's usually four or five different last names for the four or five kids. She doesn't know their birthdays. She can't spell their names. I mean, it's just depressing. Or mom's a crackhead or an alcoholic, and the kids are feral. You know, they're just running the street. So it's a totally different world. What was your typical assignment in those early days, the first couple of years on the job?

Starting point is 01:05:58 Working late shift, taking 911 calls. And, you know, we'd start on a busy night. You'd start on a busy night and sometimes you'd be 40, 50, 60 assignments in the hole. Where there's that many people who call the police that are still waiting. You know, they were waiting for hours for us to show up. But it was all by a priority. Obviously, if somebody just got shot, that's where you're going. You know, the loud music, you know, that your neighbor,

Starting point is 01:06:28 is playing. We'll get to it in 12 hours. Wow, 12 hours. Oh, easily. I respond to some of them that were 24 hours. So what do you do when you respond? We just respond. It's like, oh, no music. Bye. We just take off. I mean, I guess there's nothing you could do. No, not at all. Not at all. But, you know, at first, you're on probation for a year. In the six months in the academy counts. And where I worked at District 5, you weren't allowed to ride by yourself. You had to have a partner that was off probation. So I couldn't wait to be off probation so I could, you know, either be by myself, but almost all the cars were two-man because the neighborhood was so dangerous,

Starting point is 01:07:10 which I don't see a lot of anymore, which is really sad because not only from a safety perspective, but you could talk about anything with your partner. If you have the right partner sit next to you, the whole night just flew by. It was great. It was awesome. but yeah, you don't see that as much anymore. How long does it take to really get into the rhythm of being a cop when you're doing? Four years, five years.

Starting point is 01:07:36 It takes before, because I remember when I would be by myself, it's like, God, I hope I don't get this assignment. I don't know what to do. You know, it's like, I don't know, we'll see. What was those type of assignments that you dreaded? There's a lot of gray area in police work. It's like, okay. He's saying this, she's saying that, who do I believe? Or do I just walk away from it?

Starting point is 01:08:02 Or you just don't know. You know, it's like, okay, a bomb threat. Okay, I think I know what to do with a bomb. An explosion. All right. I'll call the fire department. You know, they could go take care of it. You know, a dead body is like, all right, I know a boss is coming to that.

Starting point is 01:08:16 So I'm pretty much covered for that. Fires, you know, you go to that. You respond to all different kinds of stuff. Yeah, there's got to be so many different scenarios that, you know, you can't possibly be trained on each and every one. Yeah, you just, you get to a point where you feel confident in what you're doing and you could kind of, you know, you fake it till you make it kind of, you know, it's kind of like that. And back when I was new, there was no handholding.

Starting point is 01:08:44 I remember I was off probation. We were at an assignment. I don't even know what, I don't remember what it was. It was raining out really hard. And we're like, we're going to have to call a boss. And we're like, all right. We call for a sergeant. He rolls up.

Starting point is 01:08:58 I'm with two of my classmates that I went through the academy with. And they're like, you're going to go out and talk to him? Because we're all scared to go talk to him. And it's like, yeah, fine, I'll go out there. He rolls the window down that much. And he's like, what's up, boss? And I'm like, hey, this is what we got. What do you think you should do?

Starting point is 01:09:16 So I said X, Y, or Z. He said, okay, he just drove away. And I'm like, okay, you didn't solve any problem, dude. So I go back and they're like, what did he say? so I just made it up. I'm like, yeah, he said X, Y, and Z. Okay, sounds good O'Donnell. I'm like, yeah.

Starting point is 01:09:31 What's a call you responded to that you still think about to this day? Oh, I've got so many of them. You know, I interviewed Joe Kenda on my podcast. Do you know who he is? No. He was on A&E. He had a show called Homicide Hunter. He was a detective lieutenant on the homicide team in Colorado Springs.

Starting point is 01:09:50 He had maybe 12, 13 years he had a show going. He did really well. And we talked about that. And he said, you know, it's just a sea of dead faces looking at you when you close your eyes. And I can see that. You know, it's hard to pick one out. But one that really shook me when I was newer, I was still working in the hood. I was maybe a week away from getting promoted a sergeant.

Starting point is 01:10:20 So I was riding by myself. seven o'clock in the morning, go to the shooting. And I'm like, all right. Well, I'm not getting off on time. I'm working midnight to eight. It is fine. Fire department's on a porch. This porch is like caved in.

Starting point is 01:10:36 There's a covering. There's like a roof, but that's also caved in. These houses are, you know, dilapidated. And they're working on a dude. And I said, what do you guys got? And they're like, we don't know. What do you mean? So I walk up, I see the victim.

Starting point is 01:10:52 His head looked like a pumpkin. It was all distorted. I found his ear in the bushes. He was unconscious, obviously. And the story was that he owed the dope man $20. So the dope man, and the dope man is the local drug dealer. The dope man hires these kids. Like, they were 13, 14, 15 years old.

Starting point is 01:11:19 Go rough them up. You know, I didn't get my. 20 bucks. So they chased them down to this porch. And then it was just mob mentality. It's 2 o'clock in the morning. And it wound up being eight kids when it was done, ranging ages from 10 to 16, 10 years old. The 10 year old was jumping up and down on his head. I talked to a witness. And there was blood splurting out of his eyes and his ears. And he was laughing the entire time. Ten years old. This poor guy was, you know, chased by this mob, and he's trying to break into this house. It was just a house.

Starting point is 01:11:56 There was wood shavings under his fingernails. You could see where he was clawing at the windows trying to escape this angry mob. That's how he died. They used shovels. They use sticks. They use baseball bats. And I get called to it. And I'm like, I'm the only one there.

Starting point is 01:12:15 And then there's a sergeant there that's a new sergeant. He had only been a sergeant for like a couple of weeks. And we both look at each other and we're like, what the hell is going? And nobody called to try and have this. This happened at 2 o'clock in the morning. This was 7 o'clock in the morning. Somebody was driving to work and they saw him on the porch and they kept driving, but at least they called 911 to get him some help.

Starting point is 01:12:38 But the people in the house never come. They're like, we don't want anything to do with this. So I'm going in people's houses, you know, getting the story because they don't want to be seen talking to the police. So at first I'm like, bullshit. There's no way. Oh, no. I arrested one of the kids.

Starting point is 01:13:00 And then we all had them in one spot. And here comes the wagon guy with a 10-year-old. He's so little, the handcuffs didn't fit on his wrist. They just slid right off. I looked down and I'm like, are you kidding me? 10? And he's like, yeah. And he told me that I said, who's going to?

Starting point is 01:13:18 interrogate him. Big Bird, you're going to give him crayons to write out his confession? I mean, where am I right now? What have we devolved into? I just lost my faith in humanity after that. Are these kids gang related? How did this all come about? By block. Like I said, there's a lot of them that just run around feral. They've got zero supervision. They got zero hope. Nobody thinks about tomorrow. It's all about, you know, what's going on today. Where are the parents? Like I said, almost no dads. It's very shocking to see a dad in any of these equations. And like I said, mom or grandma is going to be mom or grandma. You know, mom, like I said, is working two or three jobs trying to keep her head above water and grandma's watching or she's a crackhead.

Starting point is 01:14:04 How do they even react when you tell them, hey, your kid just, you know, killed someone? They're 10 years old. Do they care the parents? They care. But, you know, it's kind of a, you know, or be like. the overreaction. Oh, love it, baby, Jesus. Oh, I can't believe this happened. You know, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, well, he's 10 years old and he's running around the street, you know, at 2 o'clock in the morning. You should be playing with G.I. Joe's.

Starting point is 01:14:31 Well, or maybe he should be asleep in bed. I don't know. I'm crazy that way. And this 10-year-old, he takes part in this homicide. He goes home and he has, I just, I can't wrap my head around it. He takes his clothes off because there's, so much blood and there was even brain matter on his clothes. He takes strips naked down to his boxers, puts all of his clothes in a garbage bag, and hides him in his closet. What 10-year-old thinks about like doing away with the evidence? And his mom saw him doing it.

Starting point is 01:15:07 You'd think that maybe she'd be like, hey, junior, what's up with that? But nope. Was it common? You mentioned that, you know, individuals saw that go on, on their own front porch and didn't want to get involved. Was that common? Yes. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:15:23 Well, first off, they were scared to death of like the locals. You had kids that were running the streets that were more or less thugs that people felt like they were hostages in their own houses. They were scared to walk out. You know, it's like when I was growing up, I could play outside. I didn't have to worry about, you know, X, Y, or Z. These kids, they can't. You kind of see a variation of that now with bystandard, say, pull.

Starting point is 01:15:48 pulling out their phones to record something rather than call law enforcement. You see a lot of that. You know, it's not like being scared of a gang or, you know, the neighborhood, you know, whatever. They just, I don't know. I don't know where that got lost. I really don't. Why do you decide to advance your career and become a sergeant? Because I had some bosses that were just idiots.

Starting point is 01:16:10 And I'm like, I can do better than that. You know, it's like, and I had bosses that were spectacular. They were amazing role models. And I'm like, I want to be like you. You know, it's like, and I want to help the cops. And I want to help the citizens. And you can do that as a boss. How long into your career was that?

Starting point is 01:16:30 I got promoted when I was about six years in, seven years in. Is that normal for? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've known some people that promoted like at four years or five years. I think four years back then was the minimum. And I don't think you made as, as effective as a boss. if you did it like right away.

Starting point is 01:16:50 Because the more experience you have under your belt on the street, there's no better teacher than the street being thrust into whatever situation. So one day you're a cop, the next day you're a sergeant. What changes over that period of time? Well, Milwaukee was a big enough organization. You know, they should be at close to 2000 for manpower.

Starting point is 01:17:10 I think they're like at 1100 now. They're so understaffed. But the cool part was you could, When you promoted, you went to a different district, different part of town where you didn't know the cops. So it wasn't Ian and Pat riding in a squad car one day and then the next day, hey, I'm your boss. That's smart. Yeah, it's super smart. And all of a sudden now I'm the boss.

Starting point is 01:17:37 So I remember my first night I rode around with a sergeant. Now they have like a formal training program. There was nothing like that when I started. And my guy that trained me as a sergeant was a brand new sergeant when I was a brand new cop. So I knew who he was. So I'm like, oh, that's cool. Because I didn't know anybody else. There was four other sergeants and this other sergeant that I knew.

Starting point is 01:18:03 The lieutenant, I knew socially. I didn't know him professionally. The captain I never heard of. And we had about 25 cops on the shift, on late shift. And I didn't know one of them. I didn't know anybody. So you start with a clean slate. Now, if you were a goof, they'd already know you're a goof.

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Starting point is 01:19:47 You know, the north side of Milwaukee, I knew that neighborhood better than where I lived. I mean, I knew every nook and cranny. South side, and I'm like, I don't know where I met. And there was no GPS. So I had a laminated map, and I'm trying to learn the hundred blocks. Okay, Lincoln's 2,300 South.

Starting point is 01:20:05 Grant is 2,200 South. Mitchell is 1,700 South. You know, it's like a grid system. You know, it'll give you an idea. and my first night, I'm like, hey, yeah, I'm Pat O'Donnell, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm going to be following your guys around assignments. I'm not spying on you. This is the only way I'm going to learn this district.

Starting point is 01:20:24 The only way is to go to like assignments. They're like, okay, cool. I said, I'm not getting it all up in your business unless I have to. So it's like, okay. So it's second or third night. I'm by myself. Usually I'm working with two other sergeants. For whatever reason, I'm solo.

Starting point is 01:20:40 And I'm like, oh, I take that back. There was a sergeant. another sergeant there, but he was super busy with something else. All right. So I get down giving a roll call. And dispatcher is like, sorry to do this to you again. And I'm like, different dispatcher. I'm like, all right, what do you got?

Starting point is 01:20:56 So, you know, start heading to the shooting. I already have early late power there. That's 7 p.m. to 3 a.m. cops. And I'm going to send some late, late shift sergeants. I mean, late shift cops. I'm like, okay. Subject states. husband was just shot five, six times in the house, and fire department's working on him.

Starting point is 01:21:17 I'm like, all right, she gives me the address, and I'm like, I have no idea where that is. I'm like, oh, shit, my first homicide as a sergeant, and I don't even know where I'm going. So I get there. I asked one of the cops, I said, where's that street? And they're like, oh, sorry, just, you know, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, okay, hey, thanks. So I screamed down there. And sure enough, there's dude.

Starting point is 01:21:40 He was an informant. He turned rat. He was in the Latin Kings. Now, the South Side, the North Side was primarily black. It was gangster disciples, vice lords. Those were, like, the predominant. And then there were some, like, little neighborhood gangs. The South side was Spanish Cobra, as Mexican Posse, Latin Kings, Mexican, yeah, Mexican Posse, Brown Pride.

Starting point is 01:22:06 You know, it was a lot more organized. And it was a mix. of black and Hispanic and white, but mostly black and Hispanic. And this guy was a snitch. And the guy that he snitched on during the trial, the guy said, when I get out, I'm killing you. Just so you know, I'm killing you. So what he did is like eight year stretch or seven year stretch or whatever it was. The night that he got out, he went to the dude's house, he knew where he lived.

Starting point is 01:22:36 He knocked on the door. His wife answered, hey, is Jose here? Yeah. Can you get him for me? Sure. Remember me? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And the cops knew all this backstory. And they're like, do you want us to go get this guy? I'm like, yeah, we know where he lives. And I'm like, you know where he lives? Yeah, he's probably waiting for us. I'm like, okay. Five minutes later, I hear over there, is yeah, suspect in custody gun recovered. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Is this how the South Side works?

Starting point is 01:23:08 This is a cakewalk. I mean, the door. side was just random violence. This is like organized and they were proud of it. And I'm like, holy shit. But, oh, maybe a month later, I had the busiest night of my life as a sergeant. This is a good story. So this time I'm by myself. I get done with roll call. And there's some kind of domestic thing. Squads go to it. And the serge will keep you advice. I'm like, okay, sounds good. So I hear him up on the air and they're like, hey, hey, Sarge, we got to kick the door. You want to come?

Starting point is 01:23:44 I'm like, in order to kick a door, you have to have exigency. There has to be like, you have to do it now. And I said, the longer you're talking to me, the less exigency you got. I said, kick the door. If you're legally okay, do it. I said, I'll be buying a little bit. So I'm gathering up all my stuff. They kicked the door.

Starting point is 01:24:03 It was a big nothing. But if we kicked the door, Sergeant had to take pictures. And I had to write a report. and notify the landlord or the houseowner, why we did it. And I said, as I'm there, I'm getting out of my car, squad two. And I'm like, yes. It's like, hey, we got a dead body. It's a suicide.

Starting point is 01:24:24 Yada yada address. You respond, please. And I'm like, sure. So I just flip the camera to the cop. I'm like, take some pictures. Here's a little sticker thing. Put it on the door. I'll worry about this later.

Starting point is 01:24:35 I got a dead body. I got to take care of. So I go. And here's this guy. he's gigantic, 300 pounds on the kitchen floor with this huge knife sticking out of his chest, super dead. The Fairmex didn't even work at me. He's like, this guy is dead, dead, you know. And wife, kids, everyone's freaking out. And I'm like, and there's just a sea of blood.

Starting point is 01:24:58 It looked like Kool-Aid almost, you know, like somebody spilled the whole thing. Cool, I'm like, get these kids out of here. Get the wife out of here and put them in another room. It was on top of a furniture store in an apartment. nobody spoke English, everybody spoke Spanish. And I'm like, thankfully, I had a cop that was fluent Spanish speaker. He was very young and naive. He was very, and he was from the neighborhood.

Starting point is 01:25:20 I don't know why he was so, like, idealistic. And he's like, sorry, he said, the wife is saying that he just took the knife, plunged into his chest, and killed himself. And I said, and you believe her? I said, take a look at her. She had a little black eye, fingernails were broken. I said, those are defend, I'm going to bet.

Starting point is 01:25:37 I'm going to bet this guy has been beating her ass forever. She had enough today, and she stabbed him. Oh, sorry, you know, you're so this and that. And I'm like, no, that's what happened, blah. So I called the homicide unit. They came out, lieutenant's like, yeah, bitch killed him. And I'm like, yeah, no shit. So they're going doing their thing and I'm just hanging out.

Starting point is 01:26:00 And it's like, squad two. No, this is like 4 o'clock in the morning. We've got a barricaded hostage situation. you're all I got. And I'm like, oh, okay. So I look at the lieutenant and I said, you got this,

Starting point is 01:26:12 don't you? He says, yeah, this is easy. This is open and shut case. And I'm like, thank you. So I take off. I scream down to the hostage thing.

Starting point is 01:26:19 I call an ambulance right away to stage, like a half block down. And we, our gang unit works early shift. It was 4 p.m. to midnight. And they were doing a warrant. They were finishing up.

Starting point is 01:26:31 They're like, sorry, you want some help? I'm like, yes, I do. And said, thank you. So. We surround the house. There's a guy, a big white, like, biker dude with a big boots, big Rambo knife and a bottle of Jack Daniels. The other hand, so he's just chugging it.

Starting point is 01:26:48 His wife and kids are on the couch, and they're bawling. He's like, I'm going to cut them the fuck up. I use explaining in great detail how he's going to kill his family. And I'm just like, all right, this is a job for our SWAT team. You know, of course, we have to. to take care of it before anybody gets here. Well, our SWAT team was called the Tactical Enforcement Unit, and they only worked to like one or two in the morning.

Starting point is 01:27:15 So it was a call-up, and I knew it would take them an hour. I'm like, this is going to be over, but I'll still, I'll call for him. And this guy had the front door and the back door barricaded with furniture, garbage cans, I mean, you name it. And I'm like, oh, so in order to get a good shot, you had to stand like on these little cement slabs on the front door and back door. There was only room for one cop with a gun. And we didn't have rifles back then.

Starting point is 01:27:44 So it was just pistols. We had shotguns, but shotgun wouldn't be effective because the further it goes, the more of the spread goes out. And I don't want to see them hitting, you know, an innocent. So I told him,

Starting point is 01:27:55 I said, this guy goes one step towards him, put him down, light them up. And they're like, all right, search. But they had a conversation going with them.

Starting point is 01:28:04 I'm like, all right, well, this is, at least we're talking. This is good. Super stressful. I'm like, oh, fuck. So finally, you know, things start to calm down a little bit. He still has the knife. He puts down the Jack Daniels and I'm like, okay, well, that's good. He takes a prescription bottle and just empties it.

Starting point is 01:28:23 Takes this huge thing of pills. And I'm like, and one of the cops is like, sorry, he's going to die. I'm like, no, he'll pass out first. I got an ambulance staging a half block down. This couldn't be any better. Problem solved. Sarge, we got to do something. He loses his mind.

Starting point is 01:28:38 He starts charging in there. I'm like, well, now you forced our hand. Now we're going on the other way. We're going to have to shoot this guy. And he looked at us with the knife and he's like, his eyes are all back and he passed out. And I'm like, oh, thank God. I'm like, oh, this could have ended so differently. So like that was one night of me being in charge.

Starting point is 01:28:59 That's a wild night. It was crazy. And I'm just like, that was the busiest night of my sergeant life. What's a typical day for a sergeant like from the time you clock in and what are your responsibilities? It all depends where you're working and what you were doing. You know, like on late shift, one of us would be the roll call sergeant. You get there an hour early. There was always last minute changes you had to make to the schedule.

Starting point is 01:29:21 You know, you were an admin person. And then there was always, you know, somebody's calling it sick. Somebody's injured. Somebody's this. You're taking care of that stuff. Then the cops go out on the street. And you also assign the cops. It's like, Ian, you're with Pat tonight on squad 22.

Starting point is 01:29:38 You know, Fred, you're with Susie on squad 23. You know, you're trying to match personalities, which isn't always so easy. You're trying to match, you know, where you think they're going to be the most effective. You know, and then, okay, we're having a problem with burglaries over at XYZ area. You know, pay special attention to that. If you can, you know, if it's not busy, I'll take you out of service and you can kind of like ninja around a little bit and see if you can, you know, catch somebody in the act, that type of thing. But the toughest part about being a boss was taking care of off-duty stuff.

Starting point is 01:30:13 If there was an off-duty cop, let's say, was drunk and hit a light pole, the sergeant would have to come. I've arrested a couple of cops for drunk driving. I've only arrested like maybe five people in 25 years for drunk driving. And, you know, it's like, and two of them were cops where my hand was. forced and like, there's nothing I can do about this. You got to go. Do you see a lot of cops getting arrested for drunk driving, like across. Not anymore. It's less now. Yeah, I think it's less because we got Uber and Lyft, man. Back then we didn't. You know, but there was a lot of drinking. I don't know if there is now. You know, a lot of people self-medicate. You know,

Starting point is 01:30:57 it's an incredibly stressful job. And a lot of the stress doesn't come from the street. Yes, a lot of it does. But a lot more of the stress, and maybe you had Mike from Copville and, you know, anti-hero on here comes from the administration. That's where the real stress comes. Yeah, did you get to see like the political side of the police department becoming a sergeant? Yes. And, you know, where I worked, you start as a cop. Then you can stay in patrol as a sergeant or you can become a sergeant in the detective bureau. And that's investigations. Then you go a lieutenant. And a lieutenant is usually in charge of a shift. You know, like say at a district station, there be three lieutenants, day shift, early shift, late shift. And they're in charge

Starting point is 01:31:42 of the cops and the sergeants. And then there be a captain. The captain is in charge of that district. So they're like the captain of their ship. You know, they're responsible for the whole shooting match. And then once you get above that, then, you know, like inspectors and assistant chiefs and chief, that's way up the chain of command. And did you want to? And did you want to, advance? No, not at all. I loved being a boss. I love being a sergeant because I could help my, like I said before, I could help my guys out. I don't know how many times. It's like, hey, Sarge, you got a minute and they're closing the door to your office. You're like, nothing good is going to come from this conversation. This is going to suck. You know, it's like, I'm having this trouble

Starting point is 01:32:18 with my wife, you know, or it could be, you know what, my dog died. I had to put him down today. I'm like, get out of here. You're not in any kind of shape to work tonight. You know, it's like, No, and I don't expect you to. What was the conversation around mental health back then in policing? When I first started, there was no such thing. Suck it up, Buttercup. No matter how many dead babies, no matter how many, like, crazy stuff that you saw, you just kept on going forward.

Starting point is 01:32:46 Because if you show it any signs of weakness, nobody would ever work with you. Nobody wanted to work with you if you were weak. Now we have a police chaplain, and he's fantastic. He used to be a cop. He was a cop for like 15 years. So he speaks the language and he's not beholden to the administration. He's like a separate entity. And we actually have police psychologists that they're not employed by the city of Milwaukee.

Starting point is 01:33:16 Well, they're like subcontractors where, you know, their jobs aren't dependent. You know, the chief can't say, hey, what's going on with that Ian guy? It's like, no, that's all confidential. I can't tell you. You know, that kind of thing. So it has flipped and it took a bunch of suicides, unfortunately, or this to flip. And unfortunately, I was at one of them. I was the incident commander for it.

Starting point is 01:33:41 And it just, that was horrible because I knew the guy. And I knew all the people that were there. What do you think drives an officer to that point? Is it a mixture of at-home stuff and the job? Yeah, like you said, I think it's a mix. It's the job itself, which is super stressful. Then if you are starting to drink, if you have a predisposition, for cops it's mostly alcohol because we'd have to do random drug tests.

Starting point is 01:34:07 So, you know, were there guys, you know, taking illegal drugs? I'm sure there were. But, and there was guys that would get fired for it too, you know, that kind of thing. But you have a combination of that and then you start screwing up like that. then you're in Dutch with the department, you know, say you have a drinking problem. It's like, you're missing work. You're missing more work. You're missing even more work.

Starting point is 01:34:30 It's like, what's going on with you? And it's like, I can't have a cop that's coming to work that looks like shit. Smells like a boot, you know, smells like a beer. Or, you know, it just, it's a, it's kind of a downward spiral that I've seen. You know, they're having problems at home. They get divorced. Their kids hate them. Their wife hates them.

Starting point is 01:34:49 And, you know, they just, it's a lot of disparity. And then, okay, now go out and chase bad guys all night. You know, it's shift work. You know, we don't sleep like normal people. But you're still expected to be a little Johnny's soccer game. You're still expected to be a decent husband or wife or whatever. You know, it's, there's a lot of pressure. And then when the, you feel like the administration is gunning for you, then that's a whole

Starting point is 01:35:15 different level of just shittiness. How many years? do you think it takes for the job to start having a mental and physical, you know, tear on someone on an officer? Four or five years. But it depends where you're at. I mean, if you worked in Smallville, USA, and the worst thing you've ever responded to was, I don't know, a garage burglary, then you're not going to have the same kind of pressure as what another cop. Like where I worked, we had over a thousand non-fatal shootings every year.

Starting point is 01:35:47 We had, when I first started, it was like 260, 270 homicides in one year and over a thousand non-fatal shootings. I mean, it was just, it was crazy. That's almost one a day. Yes. Absolutely. And it wasn't spread through the city. It was in a very concentrated area. How many years do you end up doing?

Starting point is 01:36:04 25. 25 years. Yeah. And at what point do you start thinking of leaving when we go back to the beginning of your story, where you're telling us about getting into book writing and podcast? After I had 20 years in, it's like, okay, what am I going to do when I grow up? You know, it's like, I'm a big fan of this thing. Dig the well before you're thirsty. And it's like, I don't want to, I don't want to pop smoke January 16, 2020.

Starting point is 01:36:34 Then January 17 go, what now? I mean, there's only so many vacations you can take. There's only so many, like, I'm going to do that woodworking project that I've been putting off forever. You know, it's like, I'm not 100 years. old. I was 55 when I retired. So a lot of guys will go and do other jobs. You know, they'll do other police jobs or, you know, they'll go to like a small town or a little work security. Because it's what they know. They're qualified for it. That's for sure. But I didn't want any part of it anymore. I loved it. Don't get me wrong. But I was done. I didn't want it. If I was going to

Starting point is 01:37:12 continue, if I was going to get a job doing the same thing, I just would have stayed. How do you process 25 years of a job that's that trauma filled? I don't know. When you reflect back on it and you look at it, you know, there's just there's so much. Well, you know, it's funny because, you know, I wrote, you know, the good collar. I'm writing this book right now. And before that, I had a hybrid publishing deal where we rapid released four books in like seven months. I wrote, I was a writing machine.

Starting point is 01:37:41 But the byproduct was I was having horrible PTSD. I couldn't sleep at night. I'm writing all these stories and all of a sudden stuff that I completely forgot just starts resurfacing again. And, you know, and I can't, I left on a sour note. Unfortunately, this is in 2019, about halfway through 2000, it was like June or July, something like that. And this is the whole orange man is bad, babies in cages at the border, you know, the whole

Starting point is 01:38:14 shooting match, ICE is horrible, yada, yada, yada. Even though when Obama was president, we were deporting people left and right. We were working with ICE all the time, but nobody cared. But that's another conversation for another day. But I'm on day shift, and I'm back at District 2 where I first got, when I first got promoted, that's where I was at. And that's another story. I got screwed. But so be it. I hear the cops over the air and they're like, hey, we're getting flagged down by ice. And everyone looks at each other like, oh, shit. They want us to help them.

Starting point is 01:38:56 And per our rules and regs, any federal law enforcement flags us down or requests help. We have to. We absolutely have to. So could you send us a boss? And it's me and two other sergeants. We're in the office. And I look at him like, I got six months to go. their heads are down. I'm like, okay, pussies. Off I go. So, off I went. And it was an illegal alien that was in a shed. I even remember the car was a Chevy Suburban. He's in the back seat. He was driving. Ice came up from Chicago. They wanted this guy because he had been arrested nine times. He was in the country illegally for 10 years. He was arrested nine times. Last time was on a weapons charge.

Starting point is 01:39:44 They're like, yeah, he's going. And I'm like, all right, now the crowd starts forming. The local newspaper is there. Everyone's got their phones out like this. So I go to the boss at ICE. I'm like, hey, nobody's breaking windows. Nobody's pulling people out by their earlobes. If he wants to come out, great.

Starting point is 01:40:04 You can take him, arrest him, do whatever. We're done. But we're not going to force him out. He says, that's fine. One of my cops, younger guy, real good talker and he spoke fluent Spanish talked him out of the car no incident, no no fighting, no nothing

Starting point is 01:40:22 put his hands behind his back there you go Mr. Rice off we go I said guys we're done clear out I don't want any more part I don't want any part of this shit all right I go back to the district to tell my captain

Starting point is 01:40:36 what just happened because I knew that it's going to explode so there's an angry mob at the front We want to make you, we want to know who's there. We want all their names. You know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The camera's like, tell him the fuck off.

Starting point is 01:40:51 And I'm like, I'd love to, but they want to make a complaint about me because I was in charge. Oh, that's different. And I'm like, all right. So he goes to front counter. He's like, get out. And they're like, what? He's like, get out.

Starting point is 01:41:03 I'm not telling you dick. Go away. They did their jobs. You know, nobody got hurt. You know, everything was the way it was supposed to be. Best case scenario. So. then maybe a week later, I got hauled up to internal affairs.

Starting point is 01:41:21 I thought it was done over with. Now it's on the news. I see myself on the news, you know, from all these cell phone recordings in the news. There was a news camera there. I didn't even see it. And it's like, you see me, you know, helping arrest this guy. And it's like Milwaukee police is helping ice, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. The sheriff, who was not my boss, but he's the sheriff in Milwaukee County,

Starting point is 01:41:42 Sergeant O'Donnell and his men were urban terrorists. And I'm just like, oh, please, urban. The mayor is like, this is so inhumane. He didn't talk about getting arrested nine times. I would think the community want this guy out. He's toting around a gun. He was on probation. He was violating his probation.

Starting point is 01:42:00 And he was an illegal alien. I don't even know how that could happen. So I'm like, okay. So I got up to internal affairs and I'm like, all right, to say I was salty would be an understatement. So it's like, we're serving you with charges. I could get fired. And I said, all right.

Starting point is 01:42:19 When's the interview? When do you want to do the interview? January 17, 2020. He said, okay, I'll see you. And he said, wait, you're going to be retired, right? And I'm like, yeah, you better believe I'll be retired. He said, no, you've got to do it now. And I'm like, they give you like a couple of weeks to get a union rep, et cetera.

Starting point is 01:42:37 So fast forward. I'm sitting in the hot seat. you're being recorded, you know, audio and video. And it's like being on trial. It's like, were you working this day? Yes. Did this happen? Yes.

Starting point is 01:42:49 So I looked at it. Do you have anything else to say? I'm like, yeah. What state law or city ordinance did me or any of my cops break? None. Okay. What department rule or regulation did we violate? None.

Starting point is 01:43:04 Okay. Who pitched this bitch against us? Who is, I can't tell you. But I could get fired. Yes. That's the stuff that will keep you up at night. That's the stuff right. And I'm like, am I going to be able to retire? Am I going to lose my pension? Because we did. Are your ad campaigns lighting up the dashboard, but not the pipeline? That's bullspend. And marketers are calling it out in. Dashboard. Confessions. My boss asked for results. So I opened my dashboard for the only positive sounding metric I had. Impressions. Cut the bullspend. See revenue? Not just reach. LinkedIn delivers.

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Starting point is 01:44:57 Where does that come from? Like the mayor's office? Yes, it comes directly from the mayor's office. And that's when politics interfere with police. It's very ugly head rears, yes. Because, and also they're trying to protect their political campaign or, you know, if they're running for reelection or anything like that. that. Yeah, the sheriff is an elected official. The chief is appointed. So, I mean, the sheriff, you know, they need, what, 51% of the popular vote. You know, the chief, if he pisses off one person, the mayor, he's gone. Yeah. I think that's a problem with social media right now is that, you know, you take a scene like that. They're not maybe saying the full story about maybe that person raped someone or that person had a gun. They're only seeing how it spun. Yeah, it wasn't Jose the Gardner that we, just came upon out of nowhere and is like, we're deporting you.

Starting point is 01:45:46 Not even close. This guy is a gun-toting criminal. You know, he didn't learn after his first couple of arrests. He keeps on getting arrested and is for violent offenses. Are you glad you're done with the modern day policing after, you know, being on that front line, like in that situation? Yes and no. I mean, I miss the guys and gals. I miss the camaraderie that we have.

Starting point is 01:46:11 had amongst ourselves and the bosses kind of had their own like little group. But I knew the time was common and I, I planned for it. A lot of other cops don't and they're just lost souls. We don't let we don't live long lives after we retired. It's our life expectancy is really low. It's getting better. There's more like wellness that's being talked about compared to like before when I

Starting point is 01:46:38 started. Nobody even thought about it. You know, it's like you eat shitty. Everybody's smoking cigarettes or chewing tobacco. You know, you're eating just garbage food. You know, you're doing shift work. You're barely sleeping and you have all this stress. Then you stop.

Starting point is 01:46:54 You know, you're a Lamborghini going 150 miles an hour. Then you just slam on the brakes. That's it. Does anyone check up on you? Like when you retire after a career like that, is there anyone, you know, like a year or two? No. Not at all. The thing about police work is you are replaceable from the,

Starting point is 01:47:11 top down. If you decide to quit tomorrow, somebody else is going to take your spot and the wheels on the bus are going to keep going around and round. The problem is you have cops, especially when you start going to higher ranks, that think that they can't retire. Man, you know, they can't do this. I have to be there. I'm super awesome in so many super awesome ways that, you know, how can this keep going forward it has for over 150 years? And it's going to keep going. What do you think is the number one lesson you take away from your 25-year career? Oh, boy, you know, I think resiliency. Because, you know, during that time, I had cancer. And, yeah, I had a tough time with that. And, you know, I came out, okay, you know, I'm fine now.

Starting point is 01:48:03 It's 20 years ago. I had cancer. I went through a brutal, divorce, but I always went to work, and a big part of it was that might sound odd is going to the gym and working out. That was my happy place. That's where I self-medicated. I tried to be healthy about it. I mean, yeah, did I ever drink and get drunk? Of course I did. But I didn't make it a habit, and I didn't have to knock down a six-pack before I went to bed every night, you know, that kind of thing. But also respect. I remember when I was in the academy, there was a old salty instructor and he said, there's respect and there's respect. He says, you know, and you'll learn it when you're out on the street. You're not kissing anybody's ass,

Starting point is 01:48:45 but he said, you know what? They know. When you're talking to people, even people that have committed heinous crimes, there's still people. And you know what? You've got to show that respect. What advice would you give to a new up-and-combeen cop right now or someone that's considering getting into policing? When I was a brand new cop, there was like 10 of us. for my academy class that went to District 5. Our captain was Tony Bassage. He was a Vietnam vet, Marine, tough as nails. His uniform, you could cut yourself on the, you know,

Starting point is 01:49:17 with the creases, the shoes where you could see yourself in them, you know, with the shine. He always had his Marine Corps coffee mug and a cigarette. And he was just a real tough guy, but he was super intelligent, and he was such a good people person. Not too many times you get all of that in one package. So he comes into the conference. conference room, we all stand up and snap to attention. He's like, sit down. And he's like, all right,

Starting point is 01:49:42 what's going to fuck your career? And we're all like, um, not writing this report, not doing this. Right. He says, wrong, wrong, wrong. He said, you know what? When you're here, you're new, I expect you to mess up. We expect you to mess up. You're new. You don't know anything. Yeah, you spend, you spent six months in the academy training. Great. But you still don't know anything. the street is what your teacher is, and you're going to learn from your FTOs, and you're just going to learn from doing. That's the way it is.

Starting point is 01:50:11 And he said, the thing that's going to screw you over is booze and broads. And we're all looking at, and there's some female cops, and he says, or whatever your persuasion is. And I'm like, oh, is he saying this? I'm like, okay.

Starting point is 01:50:22 And he said, I've seen more good cops with their, get their careers torpedoed because of booze and broads, alcohol and relationships. He said, it will completely destroy you. He says, you know what? When you're here and you do something stupid, I got you. As long as it's not illegal and your heart's in the right place, 100%.

Starting point is 01:50:47 I got you. When you walk out that door, I don't got you. You're on your own. If you start, you get all liquored up, you do stupid stuff with your girlfriend or your wife or whatever. You're done. I gave that speech to every incumbent. in class. Every new sea of recruits I would come in and like, sit down.

Starting point is 01:51:08 Here we go. This is what's going to screw your career. And I said, now, today, 2025, booze and broads and social media. I said, liking the wrong thing. Saying something stupid. I said, it's there forever. You know what? Post pictures of your dog or your kids or

Starting point is 01:51:31 hey, I got a new motorcycle or whatever. fantastic. Stay away from politics. Stay away from anything that's in the news right now and definitely stay away from the job. Don't talk about that great arrest. Oh, this crack had had an eight ball in his pocket and blah, blah, blah. No. Mm-mm. Stay away. Well, Pat, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, of course. It means a lot and I'm looking forward to doing your show. Absolutely. And we'll have the link to everything in the description in this episode for you. Sounds good. Thank you. Awesome.

Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Milwaukee Cop For 25 Years — This Is The Dark Side Of The Job | Patrick O'Donnell

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