Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Paramedic Who Cooked Meth — Then Got 35 Years in Federal Prison | Kevin Christian

Episode Date: June 25, 2026

Kevin Christian spent 12 years saving lives as a paramedic and firefighter in Missouri — responding to crime scenes accidents and emergencies that most people never have to witness. When the money stopped being enough he made a decision that changed everything. He learned to cook meth. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, Kevin tells the complete story — from his paramedic days and the devastating crime scenes that shaped him to building a meth cooking and trafficking operation that made him thousands a week. When the cops came the feds picked up the case and Kevin refused to rat on anyone. That loyalty cost him 35 years in federal prison. He shares what the federal prison system looked like from the inside through the 1990s all the way to his early release in 2020 — the prison hustle the food the commissary how the system changed over three decades the politics and what rising to shot caller of the Missouri car actually required. This is one of the most complete and honest federal prison stories we have ever told on this show. _____________________________________________ #walterwhite #prisonlife #truecrimecommunity #shotcaller _____________________________________________ Thank you to BLUEPRINT & MARS MEN for sponsoring this episode: Blueprint: For a limited time only, our listeners get 20% off + free shipping at https://blueprint.bryanjohnson.com/ by using code LOCKEDIN at checkout. #Blueprint #ad _____________________________________________ Mars Men: For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off FOR LIFE, Free Shipping, AND 3 Free Gifts at Mars Men at https://mengotomars.com/ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Paramedic Who Cooked Meth and Got 35 Years in Federal Prison — Full Story 03:00 His Early Life and the Paramedic Career That Nobody Expected to End This Way 09:00 The Appeal and Reality of Making Meth and What Drew Him Into That World 14:30 Building a Full Meth Operation and the Lifestyle That Came With It 19:00 How Law Enforcement and the Feds Closed In and What That Process Really Looked Like 25:30 The Arrest the Sentencing and What Entering the Federal Prison System Really Felt Like 32:00 The Life and Politics Inside Federal Prison That Govern Absolutely Everything 38:30 The Hustles Contraband and Survival Tactics That Defined His Time Inside 46:00 Prison Food Commissary and How Prison Changed Dramatically Over the Years 54:30 The Violence Contraband and Shifting Norms That Defined Different Eras Inside 01:02:00 Reflecting on the Years Lost and What Reentry to Society Really Looked Like 01:10:00 Getting Out and Adjusting to a Modern World That Moved On Without Him 01:17:00 Rebuilding His Life Family and Identity After Decades Behind Bars 01:24:00 The Biggest Lessons He Carries and What He Wants Everyone to Take Away _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with Eye Gaming, Ontario. My guest today spent 12 years as a paramedic and firefighter saving lives, then learned to cook meth. He built a trafficking operation that made him thousands a week, and when the feds came for him, he refused to say a single word about anyone. That loyalty cost him 35 years in federal prison. He served most of it and rose to shot caller of the Missouri car. His name is Kevin Christian, and this is a story I promise you're going to enjoy.

I grew up, man, in Texas, in Texas and in Kansas City, Missouri. That's where I'm from, really, but I lived in Texas for a long time. What was your upbringing like? What was what now? Your upbringing? Oh, it was just general. I mean, nothing middle-class family type thing, you know. That was about it.

Dad worked like different jobs and stuff. I got construction and stuff like that, you know, so that was basically where I was at. Was your mom in the picture? Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, she was. Yeah, she worked, you know, just middle-class family in Kansas City. That was pretty much about it. What did she do for work?

She worked at a factory, just factory worker, you know. Big family or small family? Not a sister. So, small family, you know. Were you and your sister close? No, not really, no. How are you as a kid? What were you like? Man, I think I was pretty well-behaved, you know. I don't know. I mean, I didn't get in trouble a whole lot.

I'd never been in trouble. This is the first time offender when I called. this case. So, you know, I'd never been in trouble, so I had no criminal history points at all, you know. So it was, didn't make a difference. Yeah, that's where it was, though. Before you caught the case, what did you want to be when you grew up? Actually, I caught it at, I was like 33 when I caught the case, and I was a, I was a paramedic firefighter. Wow. Yeah, I was kind of, I was kind of burned out on it at that point. And, uh, I'd done it since I was like 18 you know and and actually I became a I was 19 I was an EMT

and at 20 I was a paramedic you know I was working in Kansas City downtown can't city uh that it's called massed ambulance you know it was a big uh there was a can city downtown ambulance service and uh we ran a lot of calls lots of crazy stuff you know lots of crazy stuff for sure what made you get into that line of work uh I'm not really sure you know I mean it just seemed cool you know I mean it seemed like it'd be fun and uh It was. I mean, it was crazy, too, though, but you know, you never knew what you were going to get into. Man, you'd, you know, you'd beat police all the time to the calls because they didn't have as much manpower. And you'd get there and, you know, you'd show up on a shooting, you know, guys do have the gun, you know, or whatever.

I mean, it was kind of crazy sometimes. Can you share some of those stories that still stick with you? Oh, man. I mean, there's a bunch of them. I remember one time, one time we had a guy in a van. and PD was there and stuff, and they were like, okay, here's the deal. You know, this guy pulled up in this van, and his old lady called him.

She said he was going to kill himself. And we haven't approached the van yet or anything, you know. And but he won't respond verbally, you know, when we yell at him. And so I went up with him. And I ended up going in the van through the front seat, you know. And I could see through the back, you know, and he's sitting there, I could see him back like this. And with a shotgun, you know.

But he'd already, so, man, he's grabbed the shotgun real quick, and his head came forward, and his whole top of his head, he'd already blown his brains out, and his whole top of his head was gone, you know, and that was an interesting one, but we had a lot of, just a lot of strange stuff, lots of bad car wrecks. You know, sometimes you'd be looking in the woods for the person, you know, they'd have such a bad car wreck, you'd have to, you'd have to search for them. They'd get thrown out so far, you know, you wouldn't know where they were at. Yeah, that, shootings, you know, back then. you know, I was like in the, I was like in the late 80s and stuff. And that's when the crack wars were going on, you know, all the, all the neighborhoods were fighting. You know, all the different gangs were fighting over who was control of this part of the neighborhood and this part, you know, and there were lots of shootings, man, whole lots of shootings.

Yeah, we ran quite a few of those. You were in a shooting yourself? Huh? Were you in a shooting yourself? No, just, no, you know, I just, you know, I just, you know, respond to his paramedicine on and stuff. And, yeah, there was, we were in lots of shootings, though, but no, I've never been involved in. the shooting runs on. The suspect's not still on scene. The suspect isn't still on scene. Oh, yes. That's the whole thing. The shooter was always on the scene. You know, I mean, you'd have,

and, you know, in the back of the neighborhood like that, there'd be 150 people standing outside. And, you know, the guy that shot would be in the middle, you know, the guy that was shot, be in the middle. And there'd be like 150 people. And you didn't know who the hell the shooter were, you know, and they're screaming and yelling. I mean, it was chaotic, man. And, you know, you might have police here. You might not. I mean, lots of times, we'd be. police to the scene and uh when we did it was crazy you know it was always crazy i guarantee it but yeah so now some of these bad scenes you've seen how do you stomach that how do you know walk away from that oh you just don't think about it i mean it always comes back to your dreams and believe that you know

i mean that's where they come back i mean i don't you know i guess i'm pretty combative when i sleep uh but you know that's that's about it you just you close them out you don't think make make jokes of it, you know, make a light of it. And, oh, yeah, we make jokes about horrible things. Do you still think about it now, you know, 50 years later almost? Yeah, yeah, yeah, sometimes, yeah. Not too often sometimes something will pop up here, there, you know what I mean? How soon after these incidents do you start dreaming about it?

Oh, man, I mean, just pretty quick. I mean, and, you know, it's never specific. It's just like, you know, you're dreaming about it, but you're not sure what or, you know, I mean, And, nah, it's just pretty bad dreams. But I mean, I still do. I just, I don't remember, I don't remember hardly any of my dreams. I just kind of know what I was dreaming about to a certain extent. But that's about it.

You know, I just can't, you know, can't put it together anymore than that, really. Now, how does this lead to you going to prison? Man, I don't know. I just got tired of, you know, I just got tired of being a paramedic and not making any money or anything. And I thought, well, you know, back then everybody was the meth boom, it hit. in the Midwest, you know, Kansas and Independence and stuff like that. And I had a bunch of friends in independence and stuff. And the next thing, you know, everybody's cooking dope.

And I'm like, man, I can make money off that, you know. I mean, a little crystal iodine, a little red fosters, a little effedron, which I could buy locally anywhere. And so, you know, I started throwing it all together and just making money, you know, I'm making big money. And I kind of like that, you know, I mean, cars, bikes. I mean, everything I wanted, you know, casinos, you know. I mean, it was, I made the most of it for the, you know, for the time I was out there.

Yeah, it was wild. How did you learn how to make meth? Buddy of mine, buddy mine kind of showed me a little bit, and it's not that hard. You know, research it. I mean, it really wasn't that tough. I mean. There's no internet back then, though. No, there wasn't, but man, you just had, you had stuff like, lots of it was word of mouth.

A lot of it was just messing up. You know what I mean? Lots of it was just throwing it together and messing up. And, you know, a couple explosions here and there, which would happen, you know. and I've blown a few flask up. Man, they, yeah. What happens when it explodes and what do you do wrong? It sounds like a shotgun and it's loud.

And I had the neck, a buddy of mine had the neck of a bottle of a six, just a six-liter flask, you know, Erlmeyer flask that I was doing a cook with. And so I picked it up by the neck because it was reacting too hard too violently. And so I took it off the heat and so it would calm down. But it rises. It's kind of like a foam and it rises. And the flask goes like this. So the higher rises and more pressure you've gotten that.

And the flask, and you've got the flask, you've got it vented off into kind of a container, a closed container. But you might have like a couple holes in it so it can vent some of the pressure, you know. And when it gets too much, it goes. And it just, I lifted it up and it kept going. And so I turn my head like this, you know, with the holding it, and it just boom. Oh, man. And then the smoke is horrible. You've got this, you got this like fog and it gets on your skin.

stuff and just burns, you know, I mean, it's real nasty. I always wear a mask when I cook, you know, I mean, stuff was horrible on your lungs, but yeah, it was pretty bad, man, it was some bad stuff. But, you know, after a while, after a few cooks, you learn how to perfect it a little more, you know, I mean, I was obsessed with it. I become obsessed with anything I really like, you know, and I was obsessed with it, and that's all I think about. I couldn't go anywhere without thinking, I was that a chemical company over there, you know,

man, that might be a good place to cook at, you know, and it's everything, man. And that, you know, next thing you know, I'm going down to Houston, buying chemicals 100 pounds at a time. And, you know, it was just, I don't know, kind of got out of control, I guess. Okay, I have to tell you all about this sponsor because it's genuinely perfect for me specifically. If you've watched a show for any amount of time, you know everybody calls me Mcloven. I literally built my entire brand off being the Mcloven looking guy with the glasses who went to prison. My glasses are not just accessories. They are a part of my identity.

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And so, but I tell you, you don't know how I got access. I got access in a popular science magazine. Swear it to God, man. I'm looking at this popular science magazine, and I'm on the last page on the back. And you know how they've got the ads and stuff in there? Well, they've got an ad for a chemical company in Houston, Texas. And I can't think of the name of it now, but this chemical company in Houston, Texas,

you know, and I thought, man, I'll just call them and see what, you know, see if I can get, you know. So I called them like, yeah, what do you saw me, crystal iodine for you know and they're like uh 26 dollars a pound and you know we're paying five hundred dollars a pound up in the city you know and uh i mean there's one place that's so legit you could get it for 150 but then they kind of shut them down but um so uh so man so i told this guy said well what are you getting for your uh for your red foscer so he's like 60 a pound and that was a good price too you know and uh so i'm like uh well i'd like to come down and get some

I mean, I'd like 100 pounds of, I'd like 200 pounds of crystal iodine and 100 pounds of red fosters. And he's like, all right, you know, when, you know, I told him when I was going to be down and stuff. And so I actually came on a Sunday, you know, they were closed, but this guy was, you know, this guy let me in and gave me everything I needed and I gave him a few thousand dollars extra, you know, but man, I mean, I had all kinds of chemicals, you know, I mean, except Ephedrine, you know, the pseudoephedrine.

But at that point of time, you could still buy them. And I had a guy's owned a couple bars, so he'd get me cases of it, you know, So it wasn't too bad. But, you know, like now, that's basically the thing they've eliminated that, you know, makes it tough. Did any of your friends that you were working with during your time as a paramedic wonder why you quit? Like, you left your career or something?

Yeah, yeah, because I just kind of isolated myself from all of them. You know what I mean? I just kind of, you know, I just took a whole different path, you know what I mean? So I never even saw them that much. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure they did. Do you think you quit because of the money that you were mentioning or more because of the trauma that you were also mentioning? That's a good question.

You know, that's a really good question. but man, I don't know. I mean, it's consuming. I mean, it's really consuming. I mean, I've seen lots of people get messed up real bad, being paramedics and stuff, you know, just from what they saw and they couldn't handle good. So it does.

It wears on you after wall. I mean, it really does. I mean, it can, you know, depending on where you work, you know, I mean, if you're seeing action, like I saw lots of action there for a wall. And if you're seeing action and stuff, yeah, it can kind of, I'll put it like this. I didn't know too many.

paramedics that, I mean, I, at that time, I'd been a paramedic for like about 10 years, you know, and there wasn't that many paramedics had been paramedics for 10 years. It still worked the street, you know, normally get off into maybe management or get off into supplies or training or stuff like that, you know, and I did training too on the side. But that, yeah, like I say, not everybody lasted. I mean, there's a big turnover rate in that job, you know, and the money wasn't that great. And it was just kind of, I don't know. What would a paramedic make back then? Man, nothing, $30,000 a year, something like that, you know, just nothing, not good money.

How does that compare to other jobs in that era? Yeah, man, you can make a lot more being a construction worker for the union. You can make more, you can make more doing about a dozen other things, lots of other things. I mean, it just, the pay was not that good. It really wasn't. And if you're a firefighter paramedic and I went to a place later on where I was a firefighter, it paid a little more, but still not what you, it should pay. You know what I mean?

Pretty much no more than a cop made. You know, and they didn't make good money back then either, you know. I don't even know if they made good money now. Paramedic-wise, I think they get better paid now, but I don't think it's that good, you know, not for what you've got to go through, you know. How did the public treat paramedics and even cops back then? Yeah, not great. It wasn't like, you know, they had that big campaign. They were all back, like, for all the firefighters and paramedics and cops and everything, you know, like a big PR thing, you know, went on for wall and all the parents.

or made shows on TV. Well, back then there wasn't that. And I don't know, man. You, I don't know, you know, lots of times, I mean, they were happy. If you showed up and you could bring somebody back, they were pretty happy. But, you know, it didn't always happen. And I don't know, man. It was, it wasn't, I think it's like it should be.

I mean, you know, but, man, it's what it was. I mean, you're encountering people's a very bad time, you know. Yeah. So now once you start selling meth, how much are you making? Oh man. I was making so much money, man. It was crazy. Hell, man, I figured it up. I was, you know, I figured it up at different times and how much money I was making like when I cooked per per like minute, you know. It was like a few hundred dollars a minute on some of that stuff, you know, because I mean, you can take, oh hell, I could take, I could take an investment of, let's see. see, pseudo-feathering case, probably $400, and I could turn it into $40,000, you know, I mean, it was just easy, you know, I mean, it wasn't hard at all. And that was just, I mean, it's like money for nothing, you know, I mean, oh, man, it was great, you know. And I mean, if you need some

money, you know, just go do a cook real quick, you know, spend about, you know, a few hours doing a cook and bam, you load it again, go to the casino, spend all your money, go back, you know, it's kind of a circle, you know. Was the casino to launder your money or just for? fun. No, just for fun. Hell, I didn't care. I just went, you know, I'd take my, I'd take a few, you know, a few women with me and stuff, and we just, you know, we'd just stay there all day and spend money, you know, and, uh, what game would you play? Oh, I, I like Blackjack, but, uh, all the women, they like the slot machines, you know, they're all over, and sometimes I'd play

slots, but I like Blackjack is my favorite game. Me too, yeah. What were their casinos like then? Man, I think they were better. I think you, like, see, okay, you had your riverboat casinos that came into Missouri. And, uh, back then it seemed like you hit a, lots more, especially on slot machines and stuff. You know, now, and I went to wall back, and it's not the same. I don't have the money to spend like that, so it's really not fun like it used to be. But it doesn't seem like the payouts as good as it used to be. I don't know.

It's just kind of different, I don't know, because now they're settled in, you know, so I don't know. I think they've cut back on some of it. Now, the meth, are you selling wholesale in bulk to people, or is it retail, like people are coming to your door, getting a bag? No, no, I didn't do it like that. Basically pounds, weight, you know, good weight. And I guess nowadays there's not a market like there used to be back then.

I mean, I mean, literally the price is like nothing compared to what it used to be. I mean, back then, an eight ball, $250,300,000, an ounce was like $1,500 and $2,000. I guess now an eight ball is like $60 or something, this, you know, nasty and hydro stuff they make. Is that because the supply was so low, like not as many dealers? Yeah, you know, the thing is, I mean, I mean, my opinion on all that. is, you know, I think the DEA and I think government officials and lots of people get money from the cartels and it helps them, helps them further who's going to be president, helps them control Mexico and all that. And so, you know, it's kind of bad when you've got people in certain areas that are making, making one of their cash products and knocking them out. And we did, we knocked them out overnight.

I mean, literally, I mean, you could, because, you know, before that, you had crank and it was all coming from the Mexicans and stuff, you know. And, you know, after that there was none. You know, next day there's none. Nobody wanted crank. Nobody cared about crank, you know. So, I mean, you just put them out of business. And, you know, I'm sure I guarantee them, you know, somebody was getting, they were getting hurt over that. So next thing you know, they went crazy.

I mean, you know, drug task force, DEEA, everything. I mean, they just, they came in hard and, you know, you know, how they work. I mean, they don't need anything. They make stuff up. I mean, they've got, you know, they've got the feds, people don't understand this. and I didn't understand this. And I had a girl tell me before I got busted that they don't have to have anything on you. They don't have to catch you with anything.

All it is is somebody's got to tell on you. I'm like, man, bullshit, you know. And she was right. Ghost dope. She was very right. They didn't get anything on me. You know, they gave me 35 years. They didn't get anything.

I mean, honestly, God, I think maybe less than an eight ball when I ran from them. And when they tried to bust me, I ran from them. But, you know, I dumped out. most of it already, you know, and that stuff, when it hits the ground, if there's any doer or anything, he's just like, it's gone, you know, I mean, it's really weird, but, um, I think I had like a lesson in eight ball on me, and, uh, they, uh, like I said, I got 35 years, but they, you know, they get all these rats on a stand and they were saving themselves because they had cases and stuff, you know, and well, they were going to, you know, they wanted to beef it up

because they wanted to look like more of an important person to testify and get more time off. And so they would, you know, they'd make all kinds of stuff up and, yeah, it is just, you know, it is what it is, but, you know, I, in my whole case, I was on, I was on, one with you prison, you know, I mean. This is the exact drink that the tech guy who's trying to live forever takes every single morning. One scoop came out of years of longativity research. I just turned 31 a few weeks ago, and it already got me thinking about getting older,

and when I'm 60 years old, I don't want to feel like crap. So I have to do the work now to feel good at 60 and not when I actually turn 60. I'm already noticing the little stuff, especially when I don't get a good night's sleep. Nothing major, but something to start thinking. about, especially now that I'm getting older. That's why I started taking Blueprints Longativity Mix. If you've been online the past few years, you've seen the founder, Brian Johnson, the Don't Die guy,

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them, please support our show and tell them our show sent you. Was there a lot of competition in your area? Man, there were some. There was some, but lots of people didn't handle it very professionally. You know, they'd get all tweaked out on their own stuff and catch your house on fire, do stupid stuff, you know. But yeah, there was a couple big guys out there. It was.

Or cartel players in the area or not? Uh-huh. No. No, not at all. See, it was just all independent, man. This is all local, you know. and that's the thing, you know, we pretty much, like I say, they were gone overnight and it just all shifted to, you know, the local stuff and fruit and it went on for a few years,

you know, and then it kind of, they got to the point now where you can't get aphedrine or pseudoephedrine anymore and that's the key ingredient you need, you know, that's what you're changing, you're converting into the meth. And, you know, you can still get some of the other stuff. And then they started doing like anhydrous and lithium and, you know, imprison all the Iowa guys and all the Nebraska guys. they were in because they were they were just some poor dumb farm kids you know on the farm and all of a sudden you know they found oh i've got an And there's tanks here. That's what we used, you know, to increase the nitrogen and the soil, you know, and bam, they were on, you know, and it was on. But, yeah, it was poor guys. But who was your average customer? Like, what was their career or? Man, all kinds of people. We wouldn't believe the business people and stuff. I mean, you really wouldn't. I mean, just everybody, middle-aged women, older people, younger people. I mean, it was just a, it was a, it was just a big, it was just a, it was just a, you never knew, you know, you literally never knew. I mean, it was, it was all kinds of different people, big, diverse, uh, You know, I mean, everybody wants to go harder, stay up longer, you know, make more money,

and you're making more money if you can stay up and work harder and, you know, take some of the burden off the work and all that. So, I mean, there's lots of people who did it. A whole lots that did it back then. Probably still, I don't know if they were right now or not, but it was back then. How safe was meth to use back then? Well, let me tell you what, man. That's what really makes me mad is, you know, nowadays you've got these, you get fentanyl all in and stuff like, which is ridiculous, man. I mean, absolutely ridiculous.

I mean, that doesn't make any sense. There was none of that when we were making it. It was meth. You know, why the hell would you cut it with fentanyl? You know, that's a damn downer. I mean, what, you know, that's what we're getting now, I guess. People are dying from getting meth and dying from a damn fentanyl overdose, which doesn't even make any sense at all.

But, you know, and I think it was, you know, it was regular. I mean, if you're in the neighborhood and you used to dope to somebody and they die from, they're going to come kill you, you know what I mean? But if you're in a whole different state, a whole different, you know, country, I guess you can do whatever the hell you want. But it, uh, yeah, it was, it's bad now. I think it's horrible now. Now, were you cooking it in your house or in a trailer?

No, man, I had a, I had an industrial building. I had a guy rent for me. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was, it was pretty cool setup. And, uh, hell, I ride my, you know, I've ride my motorcycle. I had a, I had behind an industrial building and, you know, it always smelled back, you know, everything smelled around there because it was industrial, you know, in Kansas city. So the order wasn't a problem or anything.

I had like this trail back that went back behind there, and I'd take my bike. I had like a GSSR 750, and I ride it down this trail, you know, and come in the backway so nobody could see me. And then I had like a big empty refrigerator box and I throw it over the bike, you know, and keep my helmet on until I got inside, you know, and I get done, put my own back on, and throw the box off the bike and take off, you know. But it worked out. I mean, they never got me there. But the guy that worked for him, he told all of me, and, you know, he lived in that building, he told all of me.

So now back then when you have that much cash, is it normal to pay for everything in cash and operately? It's not like it is today. Oh yeah, today would really stand out, you know, because nobody has cash. You know, it's all plastic back then. Yeah, I'd have wads, a hundred dollar bills. I mean, it's all I ever had. I mean, you can't deposit cash in the bank now without them asking for an ID, social, everything. See, and I never did. I just kept all my money on hand or spent it, you know, I didn't buy anything brand new. I'd buy you stuff, you know, and sometimes I wouldn't even title of this stuff I bought, you know. And yeah, I was afraid, you know, I was thought, man, because they're checked that stuff and see, but yeah. Was there any violence, uh,

or people coming after you, any deals gone bad, anything like that? I didn't really have any violence. Uh, I mean, there was, there was, there was certainly some people would have taken me out if they could have at the time, you know, but I don't know. I mean, I was pretty armed most of time, you know, I didn't go anywhere without a gun. Uh, I mean, I'm going to brush my teeth without a gun back then, and I think people, they knew that, you know, if people know that you're, you know, you're going to shoot them. They find somebody else usually, you know. Now, where were your parents? Did you guys drift away during this time? Did they get worried about you? Yeah, they, they really didn't know fully what was going on, you know, and they,

I kind of, I stayed away from everybody, you know what I mean? I isolated myself. I didn't, I felt it would be best not to be around anybody that, you know, knew me real well from back then. Yeah, I think they were concerned. But like I said, I just never went around them that much. I just stayed away from them. Now, when you're a paramedic, did you ever respond to any overdoses? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Oh, man, all kinds. And, you know, back then, if it was like a heroin overdose or something, you give them an arcane and, man, they'd be right back, you know, sometimes. And, but, you know, and then you'd have, you know, you have your suicidal overdoses where they take, take, oh, lots of these psychogenic medications, you know, for, you know, psychiatric problems and those, those were bad because they were, they would cause lots of problems trying to get somebody back with those, some of that medication in them. But yeah,

there was a few overdoses for sure. So how does it feel then being that person, you know, going from being that person that helps during the overdose to someone that could be the cause? Cause the overdose, yeah. Did you ever think about that? Yeah. Yeah, sometimes. But you try, you know, you try to kill your conscience as much as you can, you know, I mean, You're just, you know, you get, I get focused, you know, I was focused on making money. And I, I was focused on that, you know what I mean. And, you know, I mean, there wasn't a time like, you know, you're talking about violence and stuff like that. You know, only idiots get into that much violence because it's stupid, man, because when you get into violence, you're alerting the police.

When you get the police on high alert, when people start getting killed and stuff like that, police get on a high alert, they start bringing more people in it becomes more of an issue. It becomes, you know, more of a priority. And that's what happens, you know, that's what happened. And that's what happened back then. You know, lots of people, it got to the point towards the end where people were getting killed and stuff, you know. And it just, you know, it gets there, they start cracking down real hard when that happens. Do you think if you were paid better as a paramedic, you would have avoided all of this? Boy, it's hard to say, man.

It is, I mean, man, I just don't know. You know, maybe if I wouldn't have been a paramedic at all. But I don't know. It's really hard to say. It is. Do you ever think about what your career would have been if you weren't a paramedic? paramedic? No, I never really, that's just kind of what I, you know, it's just kind of what I got into.

And I'm like, really not. I mean, like now I work on bikes and stuff, but I've always, even back then I worked on bikes on the side, you know, and road dirt bikes and street bikes and all that, you know, I was always pretty much obsessed. I mean, I spent lots of money on bikes, you know. I had all kinds of bikes back then, you know. I had lots of bikes, but, yeah. So now you mentioned the guy that was working with you snitched on you.

Oh, yeah. What happened? Oh man, this guy and his old lady lived in the industrial building, you know, and it was there, it was basically his job. He broke down the ephedron, and, you know, you take like methanol and some microwaves and you break it down. And so he'd always have an effedron. By all the other day, you know, I'd call him up, and he'd have the ephedron ready for me, you know, because I wanted everything ready to go so I could just be in and out, you know, I don't want to stick around. And so on this particular time, though, I go down and do the cook and everything's fine, you know.

and his name was John Johnny and the old Johnny. And so Johnny's like, I told him, I said, man, I got to leave. I got to get out of here. I got to go take some trash down to the dump, you know, because I missed the damn trash guy like three times in a row, you know. And he's like, well, I'm going to dump. You want me to go come get it? Because he didn't even know where I lived at that time, you know.

So he said, yeah, follow me down on my bike, you know. So he follows me down on my bike. and he leaves the house. When he leaves the house, he gets pulled over, man. He's got an eight ball on him. And he tells him everything for an eight ball. For an eight ball, he tells him everything. He tells him where the lab is.

He tells them all about me for an eight ball, man. And so then, so it's pretty crazy from then. So this is all, this is within this time period, very short time period, you know. So I've got about pounded dope on me. I've got to go deliver this guy, you know. And so I go over the house. first get everything, make sure everything's weighed up and everything's ready to go, you know. And, you know, tuck it in the front of my pants and hop on my bike, you know.

And, you know, I had JSXR 750. I mean, I was pretty confident I got outrun the cops in most circumstances. And so anyway, man, I never got out of the neighborhood. I stopped at a stop sign. And next thing you know, I've got unmarked cars and car everywhere. I've got four cars just got me boxed in. And the cops are out with their guns on me and stuff, you know. And, man, I just, I read it wide open.

And on the other side of me, there was a field. On this side of me, there was a fence. So I couldn't do anything in a cop with a gun like this. But I was facing him. Man, I turned, I cranked my handlebars and dropped the clutch wide open, spun that thing around, jumped off the other side of the road. And the damn grass was wet, man. As soon as I hit that grass, the bike went sideways.

And it was in slow motion. He was, oh, no, bam, I went down. And, man, so I go down. I got a pound of dope on me. It's really not good. So I go down and I look up and these cops are all just like, they're just like, you know, I'm surprised one didn't shoot me, you know. But they're all like freaked out, you know.

And so I'm like, man, fuck this. So I take my helmet off and I take off running. And they were all a bunch of corn fed ass dudes anyway, you know, and I'm running. And because the only thing on my mind right now is get rid of this pound, get rid of this shit, get rid of it, you know. So I'm running. And I got the thing double bag. So I pulled out of my pants, and I'm trying to get it dumped out.

And I finally got the bag tore open. Oh, man, I slung a bunch of it in front of me. It all came back in powder right in my face. And I couldn't see. I hit a fence and flipped over the fence and fell in this backyard. And these guys are still behind me, you know, and they're yelling, stop, stop, we're going to shoot, we're going to shoot and all this. And, man, I turn, and this is crazy, but it's true.

I swear to God, I turned around and said, well, shoot me then. Because I didn't care. And they were just like, they shut up. You know, they quit saying that. But they kept chasing me. And so I could see this church over in the distance. And I'm like, man, church is getting out. And I'm like, man, if I could just get to one of those cars, man, I can get the hell out of here.

And I didn't make it, though. They had more cars. And they came and they blocked me in. I ended up, I ended up, I got rid of the dope, but that was it, you know. Yeah, they got me then. And so that was when the state got me. And so I got, you know, it was easy 20-hour whole. in and out, you know, signature, signature bond, all that, you know.

Hell, I was all set up, man. I was going to get a, I was going to get seven years within an imposition of sentence, which meant I just had to go like 120 days to Jug Shock type prison thing or whatever, you know. And after 120 days, I have seven years of paper, but after seven years of paper, I wouldn't have any felony or anything. And I was all set up, ready to go, and then the feds came in, and they changed. changed all that, you know. They ended up getting me at a casino. And, but they didn't, I didn't have anything on me, but they got me to casino. And boy, you know, I was it. I never got bonds or anything.

I mean, they wouldn't give me bond. I just stayed in, you know. And they ended up getting 35 years, you know, out of something the state was going to give me basically probation on. Why did the feds pick it up? Did you ever find out? Yeah, they, they, I think the main reason they picked it up, it's just because the state wasn't, the state wasn't hitting people hard enough that they felt they were hitting, they felt they weren't hitting them hard enough, so they wanted to come in. And that's what they did, man.

That's what, that's pretty much what blew everything up. I mean, they came in and they just started booking everybody. And I mean, people of eight balls were getting 10, 15 years, you know. I mean, they were big time. I mean, they're still in now.

I mean, it's ridiculous, man. They were just giving mega time, you know. And I mean, my 35 years was a lot, but, man, there were lots of people with 20 and 25 years and stuff like that, you know. And they, yeah, they just went wild. You know, I mean, like I say, you know, with the criminal history categories and the ghost dope, the dope that doesn't exist, but you get the rats to tell them it does, you know. Yeah, they're getting people, you know, that's how I mean, all my dope was, they didn't have anything, you know, maybe a gram or two on the ground. That was it.

But otherwise, you know, they gave me, they give me like 100 pounds weight, you know. When the feds picked you up at the casino, do you get bond or no? No, nothing. No, that was it, nothing. You know, they wanted me to cooperate. I told them I wouldn't. That was it. That was it. No bond, no nothing.

Who would you have cooperated on if you were the guys? Just people I knew in chemical companies and, you know, just I don't know. Maybe nothing, maybe, you know. What was the deal if you cooperated? Oh, hell, if you cooperate, you know. I mean, they'll say it specifically, we're probably, probably would have been about 10 years, you know, maybe less than that. I don't know. Do you regret not taking that now?

No, fuck them. That's how, you know, that gives them power, man. That's their power. They're lazy. They don't even do their jobs, man. They rely on people. They know we're life. to get up on the stand and lie some more so they can just get their case and they can mark it off as a success,

you know, just like the prosecuting attorneys. You know, they want to put people in prison for 100 years so they can look good so they can move on down the road, you know, and become a judge and all that. It's horrible, man. How did they find the people to testify against you? Did they get pop that we're working with? Man, everybody I knew they started. They started busting everybody I knew, man. And I mean, and they all told, you know, believe this, they will tell. He'll be, boy, I'll tell you what, believe it, they're tell. they did. So you went to trial? No, day of trial. I pled guilty. And the reason for that is I was looking at a life sentence and I needed the acceptance of responsibility. I was like one point away from having a life sentence. Well, you know how it is when you go to trial and you're losing

if you're done anyway. I would have had a life sentence. So man, we're hoping they give us some kind of plea right up to the very end and they didn't. So pled guilty, you know, pled guilty basically to the guidelines and got 35 years, you know. And they, uh, they, uh, they, uh, they, um, they, um, that was that. I mean, you know, you're not going to beat them ever in court. There's no way you're going to beat them in court. You know, not with, not with the way they can present evidence on the federal level compared to how they do it on the state level. You know, the federal level, you don't need near as much, you know. I mean, it's just hearsay, most of it. I mean, weight wise and weight wise is what gets your time, you know, so that's the whole thing right there. Now, were you a user? Did you use the drugs? Yeah, yeah, I did. Do you felt like you had an addiction at the time? I'm sorry? Do you feel like you had an addiction? at the time? Oh, yeah, I was doing it every day. I was snorting it, but I was still doing it every day, you know, yeah. I was addicted to it for sure. Now, that wasn't a mitigating factor at all. The judge didn't, you know, no, no, they didn't care. They were looking at numbers, you know what I mean? That prosecutor's looking at numbers, you know. She, you know, I heard of me hundreds of years she's

giving people, that looks good for her record, you know what I mean, that's, or their record, you know, some of them of men, mine was a woman. Yeah, they didn't give a damn, you know. How did you feel when the judge gave you that sentence? Yeah, I was going to suck, man. I mean, I knew, you know, well, basically, I mean, when I went to prison, I knew at that point, that was going to be my home. You know what I mean? And everything, everything I did was going to have to be to make my life easier in prison, you know. And that's basically, that was it.

You know what I mean? And so, you know, I learned out to act real quick and learn the rules. and basically, you know, fell right into place, you know, that was that. I mean. How old were you when you went in? How old? Yeah. I was 33.

33. Now, is this still in the 80s or now? This was 98. So you missed the parole? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I missed the parole. I missed the parole. I missed everything.

Yeah. Yeah. And now I was 98, and I was supposed to get out 2028. And I got out early because they did the drugs minus two and they get COVID did it. And that was pretty. pretty cool. Where did they send you first? They sent me first. First I went to Englewood, Colorado. And that was a pretty cool place. It was a good place to start, really. They had Timothy McVeigh there in the shoe, you know, nobody got to see him. Remember the

Oklahoma guy that blew up the people in Oklahoma City and all that? They had him, they had him in the shoe there, and they were flying him out to Denver every day, you know, for court and stuff like that. They actually, they knocked down like a wall in the shoe and they gave him like a bigger a bigger room so he could do his paperwork and legal stuff. And I guess he was kind of representing itself or something. But yeah, so that place, that place wasn't bad. You know, back then it had weights. You had tobacco back then, you know, so you could chew or smoke or whatever he wanted to do.

Basically, the yard was rent by California rules, which I don't know, you being from the East Coast, they're different, but California rules basically, you stay with your own people. You know, there's just a list of rules. You don't, you know, you have shock collars for your cars and everything's ran under a car. You know, if you're from Missouri, you're in the Missouri car and eat at the Missouri tables from Texas, Texas tables and stuff like that, you know. And you don't go outside your race. You don't definitely don't break bread outside your race.

You don't go to the stores or borrow money outside your race. When you do borrow money, you pay it back, you know, all that stuff. I mean, basically, and a lot of that's in action now still, you know, I mean, and it should be. Definitely kept things from blowing up a lot's worse than they could have, you know. Was that hard to adapt to? Yeah, I mean, it just took some getting used to and you just had to get in that frame of mind, you know, but I mean, man, there was no choice. I mean, you either adapted or, you know, you got your ass kicked and you got put in the shoe and got sent somewhere else. And as soon as you hit that yard, they knew that you got checked in and you never get out of, you know, it was bad.

So, yeah, you did what you had to do. I mean, that was, that was the bottom line, you know, I mean, otherwise, believe me, it could get way worse, you know, way worse. I mean, you know, that's the thing. What level yard was a set they sent you to first? Now, when I went to Englewood, it was a medium up there. And then later on, I ended up at Leavenworth. And Leavenworth, I like Leavenworth. Leavenworth is a pretty good place.

The more politics by far, you know, but everybody kept in line. Everybody, you know, you had the white TV, the black TV, all this, and you didn't have any problems with it. You know, there was no problems, man. There was none. You know, you didn't, you know, if I had a beef with a black dude, you weren't allowed just to go fight them unless it was something, some form of disrespect they did like immediately to you that couldn't be like called you a punk or something like that and yeah,

take care of business right then and there or you catch them stealing from you or something like that, take care of business. But otherwise if you had a beef with them, you know, you just didn't, you just didn't go one-on-one at that time because you caused a race war. And so, you know, it usually gets settled outside of that. And, you know, that's just how things worked. You know, I mean, We had a movie theater. We had our own seats, you know, and, you know, the seats were by, you know, these are all the white seats and this Missouri, this Kansas, Oklahoma, you know, all like that. And it really works real well like that, you know, as long, you stayed in your lane, you were okay, you know. And everybody got along okay.

You know, I mean, you just didn't, you know, you kicked it with your own people. And Leavenworth was nice because I had a bunch of homeboys up there. So hell I knew everybody when I hit the yard up there. And that wasn't too bad. So you guys are all saying. the comments how big these guns are getting and you know people have been coming to their own conclusions about what the reason behind that is and let me tell you it's not what you think so it all starts here on this very court a few weeks ago i was playing a game of pickup basketball just like we did in

prison you know every single day we'd be playing basketball in prison and i got into pretty good shape doing it but a few weeks ago when i tried to play the game i was absolutely winded because you know It's been a few years since I got out of prison. And when I say winded, I was literally on the ground gasping for breath. I thought I was going to die. So I looked into why. Turns out it's not just age. As men get older, our bodies reprogram, storing fat faster, losing muscle easier.

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For a limited time, our listeners get 50% off for life, plus free shipping and three free gifts at men go to mars.com. That's men go to mars.com for 50% off and three free gifts when you check out. After your purchase, they'll ask where you heard about them. Please support our show and tell them our show sent you. So everyone in the comments, that's the secret. Get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts at men go to mars.com. Now, do you always ride with a car or does it ever get to be different, say, gangs?

Well, you can ride with a car, be in a gang, I guess. Now, if you're in a lower custody level place, I guess you could just be totally independent. I don't know. And the USP, you're definitely riding with a car. I mean, if you're, here's how it came down. I mean, if you, and I've seen guys that happened to, too, let's say you were from a state like in 11, you were at Leavenworth and you were from Mississippi or somewhere like that. Well, you didn't have any homeboys there. So basically, you didn't have any back up there at all.

So you get these gangs and stuff, they'd pray on you, man. They'd come up with some crap that wasn't even true or whatever and take all your stuff and everything else. Just because they knew that nobody was going to do anything because you know, you didn't have any homeboys there, you know. And Missouri, we had a huge car there, so, you know, that was good. But yeah, you kind of wanted to be, you know, I mean, you couldn't just show up and say, oh, I'm not with anybody.

Well, then you're not going to eat at a damn table. You're not going to watch TV. You're not going to, you know, you're not going to do anything then, you know. And so, yeah, I mean, there's all these. you know, it was always, you always had to be ready to ride with the car, you know, always. I mean, you couldn't, you know, you couldn't turn your back on anything like that. What do you think was the biggest difference between prison in the late 90s and the federal system versus, say, 2020 when you would leave?

Man, you know, it was, like when I started my bit, they had lots more, you get, you know, they had more programming. They had more programs you could take and get certified and different stuff, you know. and it was better on that end of it. Common service better. You could get more items. You could get tobacco. You know, that was,

and tobacco was a big deal. Tobacco caused a lot of problems when they ended it. And it made me lots of money in there, but it did. But, you know, it caused lots of problems. It really did. And they, I mean, the seals were the same, you know, lots of them were assholes.

There was a couple of war, you know. I mean, that's just the way they are. But the time was big. or then. They were getting out more time than, you know. Now, here in the last few years, they've backed off some of that drug time. You're not seeing the times that you saw back then. But it was, I don't know. I mean, it was definitely better, you know, at the first part of it. Towards the end, it was horrible, man. I mean, you know, we talked earlier by getting your mail. They ran, you know, you couldn't even get a damn letter. You'd run a copy of your letter and give it to you,

you know, and half the time, you wouldn't even get her. It'd be cut off or, you know, you know how it is. And I mean, so that sucked. You couldn't, you know, it, yeah, everything kind of, it kind of went bad. And they just, yeah, it was a lot's better towards the beginning. Like I say, early in that they had parole, which is really nice in the federal system. But then they got rid of that, you know. Now, I know you said tobacco is one of the biggest things, but where were some other commissary items in the 90s? Oh, that they had.

Yeah, they had metal cans. You know, you get, you get sardines with metal lids and stuff, you know, and cut somebody's head off with it, you know, but they know what I did. Yeah, it was a better commissary. You know, like you say, you had metal. So, I mean, you get all kinds of different cans of stuff, you know. Yep. And I mean, lots of the stuff is the same.

You know, you have cactus ante, everything cactus ante, at least on the... Those corn chips are so good. Those hot ones? What about those nachos, man? They were kind of like Doritos, but not quite, but they were okay, you know. Oh, yeah. You could eat pretty good off that stuff, you know? I mean, we did.

We had guys would make all kinds of stuff up, you know. You get oysters, smoked oysters and stuff. And hell, as 11worth, we had octopus. You know, by then they switched to the package, packs. You couldn't get metal anymore. But, yeah. How did your parents react to you getting sent to prison for 35 years? They were pretty upset about it.

They were real upset about it. I mean, what can you do? You know, I mean, it's already done. But, yeah, yeah, they didn't take it too well. Did they support you? No, pretty much. so I didn't need it. I don't always get hustles going, you know, and make money and work and Unicorn, too. But I got dismal. I got dismalered at Elevenworth for my tobacco hustle. And it was

good money. I had a CEO that to bring me in tobacco, you know. And see, all my homeboys were from, you know, they were at Leavenworth because I was from Kansas City. I was from Independence area. And so all my homeboys, you know, I just tell them and say, look, man, get me a hundred dollar bills, this guy took us $100 bills. And give me $100 bills, you know, and they would, you know. And I'd give them like three bags of buger for $100 bill, you know. And I'd get like 10 bags of buger for $100 bill and I can't chew from the cop, you know. And, you know, because your family, they're going to bring you $100 bill versus dope.

You know what I mean? And that's the thing. I mean, more than likely they're going to bring it, you know. So they take these $100 bills and they iron them down. And I mean, make them like the size of a piece of candy, like a search or something like that or, you know, a peppermint piece of candy. And dudes, you know, dudes that swallowing in the vision room and bring it back.

You know, I'd get it a couple days later, you know. And, man, this guy, this, this, this CEO, he was cool. I like the seal, man. I'd give him, man, there were days I'd give him $1,000, you know. I'd have $1,000 walking around with hundreds in my pockets. It's like, almost like the street, you know. I'd give it to him, you know. Next couple days, you know, he'd come in and, man, this dude,

he'd come up with a grocery bag full of buglers, man. And he just, yeah, he didn't care. He'd do it right in front of him, just give him to me right from the cops, you know, and they'd stay off of me because they saw him do it and they didn't want to bust him, you know. So, I mean, it's kind of, you know. How do you find a guard that's willing to do that? He wasn't far from retirement, and he, I don't know. I mean, him, I just kind of fell into a man.

A buddy of mine was doing it, and the buddy of mine was getting transferred, so he kind of handed it over to me, you know, he gave me the keys to it. And, yeah, it worked out, man, I made all kinds of money until finally. Finally, and it took a wall, too, man. but, because I knew I was going to get busted. I knew eventually it was going to blow up. You know, it always does. And, man, I mean, I was, I was making lots of money from that.

And I got called for a piss test down, you know, so I go down and it sends an SIS office. And I'm getting ready to leave, you know, and that, you know, the, you know, the UA was just the pretext, you know. And they stopped me before I go, hey, Christian, how come you got $12,000 on your books and all these different names people sending it to you? And I go, man, I don't. know. You know, I got a lot of friends out there. And they put me in the shoe. And I was in shoe for six months over that. And it, you know, they, you know, they wanted, they kind of wanted to know who it was, but they kind of didn't want to know who it was, you know. I mean, the guy that ran SIS told me later on, he said, you know, I'm glad you didn't tell on that guy, you know.

And, because they, they, let them work kind of different, you know, the cops kind of looked out for each other. But, you know, and a lot of those cops had some hustles, you know, not all. all of them, but a few of them had alsos really were making money, and he did. But, hell, I was slinging tobacco on the shoe, man. SIS let me become an orderly because he, you know, because he was happy with, you know, I wouldn't tell him that guy, so let me be an orderly and stuff. And, man, I was getting tobacco in there, and the COs all smoked, you know,

and you'd dump their trash, and it'd be full of butt, you know, so you go back and bring it down, you know, and hell, you get, and you got flat books in the shoe, you know, some flat books, you could convert those to actual money on the street. because they were flat, you know, they weren't broke up. Yeah, you go to the post office, right? And you sell them. Or, yeah, post office, different places.

I don't even know where, but yeah. Backhand, you could. But the other books you couldn't, you know, they were all tore apart and said, you know, some of the stamps looked horrible, you know. I feel like in some of these, you know, country type, you know, prison areas, the guards are a lot chiller. Like, I was in Wisconsin and Oxford for a little bit. Oh, Oxford, buddy mine was there, yeah.

Yeah, it just, they're so laid back compared to, like, the ones in New York City. And no hate on, like, the New York City officers. but it's just a different vibe. Everyone's just way more chill and just relaxed and, you know, more country. Yeah. You know, I was in Springfield for a while. Their seals are horrible there. Man, just straight assholes.

They go other way to be assholes. Yeah, you're right. Different areas are different, you know. I don't know. I mean, they were cooler in Englewood, too, because I guess it was closer to the West Coast, you know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. Or, really, I don't know. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder, what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if.

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Yeah. How do you process that, you know, mentally? You got to. You're dead. That part of you did. I mean, you're just going to punish yourself if you're calling people every day. I mean, that's all. You've got to not think about it, man. You got to get off. You're off the street. You're not there anymore, you know? You got to figure some stuff out. I worked out a lot. I had a man, man, mine was at Leavenworth. I had a group of guys that ran with me. And, man, we'd run, I mean, we run 20 miles some days, you know. I mean, we ran a lot. We'd run 10 miles, half a marathon. I mean, we'd run like five, six days a week. I mean, we were running like five, six days a week. I mean, we were and herself. My joints are shot now. I mean, they are literally from running so much. And, you know, we run and work out. I mean, we, that was a lot. So that's basically what we did most of our time, you know, other, other than, you know, other than I was hustling tobacco, but on the side, but, you know, that's what we did. We just worked out most of time. And, and that's, that's a good thing, you know, you just got to get into some, you got to get into some

kind of routine, you know what I mean? You've got to keep a routine, working out, doing whatever, but you've got to stick with it, you know? I mean, if you don't have any routine, you're just going to lay in bed and be depressed all day long, and it's going to be bad. You know, you need to be able to achieve something, be able to feel good about what you did that day, you know, and, you know, that's the thing. Do you track the time on a 35-year sentence? I'm sorry? Do you track the time?

Like, on day one, you say, I'm going to get out in 2028. No, no, not at all. Not at all. I mean, no, you don't mark the calendars or you don't know. Because, you know, you might not get out, you know what I mean? Hell, I was 33, you know. That was a... That's a life sentence, basically, 35 years.

Yeah, yeah, I do. It was like, 35 years with good time was like 32 years, you know? It was not existing good time back then. Still, it's non-existent. But, yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, it's 32 years. I would be 62 years old when I got out. And if I got out, you know, you don't ever know. You don't know.

You just don't know. And it's, I'll say, that's a long time. So now, you don't think about it. you know, just put it off and just do other things and stay busy and stay focused on other things, you know. I read a lot. So I really wasn't big into watching TV because it reminded me of the street too much, you know, so I read lots of books, lots of classic books and stuff. And like I said, I was a workout fanatic. And then I always had some hustles going, you know, like tobacco hustle and stuff like that. And that's pretty much how I did my time, you know. But yeah, yeah, you've definitely

got to be focused on something. You've got to have something to look at. something to think about or something to, you know, just something to do every day. I mean, otherwise, you're going to have problems, you know. Would you get deep into the politics at all, or did you do your own thing? Yeah, when I was 11worth, I called shots from Missouri car for a while. And me and a group of two other guys, we had like a three-man council that we did. And, man, that's a headache. That's the biggest headache in the world, man.

I mean, oh, my God, man. People constantly come to you. Homeboys are coming to you. man, this dude did this, you know. So what? Go beat his ass in, man, you know. They just complains lots about everything, you know. And you really had to kind of, you know, but then you get dudes in there.

You had to really watch out for them, man. They'd want to, you know, they'd want to run up big bills on, you know, big bills. And, you know, potentially calls the whole car to getting a big wreck over it, you know, or cause a race war or anything else. You really kind of have to, that's really what's important is to keep a watch on because you get some of these guys that they don't care, man. And the next thing you know, you're fighting the whole compound, you know. Give us an example of an issue that came to you when you were calling the shots.

Oh, my God, everything, man. They, oh, just guys telling on guys, like, they were mad in the drug program because the guy was, he was so into the drug program that he'd made, he complained that the teacher was letting them take time off and wasn't, you know, wasn't doing his job right. And so, hey, they were all mad about that. and that and just guys mad somebody sitting in their chair in the TV room or you know stuff like that man it's just uh it's just crazy i mean people you know people getting fights over ridiculous things and it's just you know probably all the stress and stuff you know but they it's just

it was crazy i remember we had one guy he had a uh he was doing business uh he was doing business with him they were in a bunch of money and uh he was doing dope business with him they were in a bunch of money. you know, they weren't paying him. And he came to us, you know, but the thing is, that's not, that's not the carous business. You're making money on your own. You know, that's your business. You're making the money, not us. We're not getting any money from that. You are. So you're going to handle it yourself, you know. And so anyway, I guess, I guess it escalated a little bit and they, the gangs, a couple guys on the gang started calling names and stuff, you know. And so then we had to step in.

And we're like, look, dude, no, you know, you don't let these people call you a pump. and all this. That reflects on the Missouri car. You're going to have to take care of that business, man, or you're going to go, you know? Now, what do you want to do, man? Would you rather get an ass whipping in this yard? Would you rather get an ass whipping from us and get put in the shoe and get an ass whipping every place you get out? And so he manned up. And it's pretty funny because usually you don't see, you know, it's rare you see stuff like has happened, you know. So they got this youngster. It wasn't even the guy that called him the name. They just picked this youngster to fight him, you know, which, and this dude scared to death, you know, and he's got

to fight this guy. And man, the youngster throws a swing at him and throws his shoulder out. And I mean, just, you know, and so dude knuckled him up, you know, and the youngster had to go to medical and stuff. So he didn't have transferring the youngster and everything else. But I mean, oh, boy, that was, that was hilarious. That was, that was nice. Why did you decide to get involved with the politics? Because I just, I knew everybody there. And I just, a buddy of mine was running the car at the time. And he asked me to, he asked me if I'd step in because he was tired of it. And, and I see why he was too because it's a headache. Now, someone could still stay on the yard that was calling the shots and just go off in the distance,

like step down? Yeah, yeah, yeah, it wasn't, yeah. Yeah, as long as you got somebody to feel your place, yeah, as long as you didn't do anything bad, you know what I mean? Yeah, and how do they treat that person that stepped down? No, they're fine with it. You know, they never had any problem with that. It's as long as you were a stand-up guy, you know, but usually if you weren't a stand-up guy,

you weren't going to be a shot caller anyway. But yeah, they, no, there usually wasn't any problem with that. What was the whole paperwork situation like back then? Oh, man, we were real aggressive on paperwork at Leavenworth. And see the thing, here's a big problem back then. You know, I mean, at first we had the rats, you know, and there was lots of rats in the system. Well, to make it even worse now, all of a sudden, the feds, I guess they figured they, you know, they weren't looking good enough by busting all the drug guys.

So they figured they'd step into the to the pedophiles, you know, to get all the computer pedophile stuff, you know, kitty porn and all that. So we're starting to get child molesters all over the yards, man. And what was cool about Leavenworth, they'd come tell you. They'd come tell you, man, they'd be like, hey, this guy coming on the bus, he's bad, man. He's bad. Just don't do it on my shift. And let me go home before you do anything, you know.

And so, you know, we go hand them and they'll check him in and stuff. I mean, you don't kill him or anything. Check him in, beat him down, whatever. Just get him off the yard. That was the main thing. But, man, there was a thing. But man, there was a, man, you'd be surprised, man. You'd get some guys come in all tatted out and stuff, you know, shaved heads, you know,

thinking, you know, acting all tough and I'm a really badass. And one day you'd find out, man, one day the paperwork could come out. Or somebody'd send you his paperwork or you'd find out. And they were child molesters and, man, I mean, it was, you never knew. You just never knew. Now, lots of them, they did have a look. You know, they did have a look. And you get, lots of times you could tell about look,

but there were some that didn't have that look, man. You just never knew. But he had a homeboy mine. He'd sit there and, you know, we got the local news because we're in Elevenworth. He'd sit there and write all the names down on anybody catching sex offender cases or anything like that. He kept a book. And we'd always check that book, too, when somebody came in, you know, to make sure they weren't in that book, you know. Now, why do these sex offenders agree to go on the yard?

Because can't they opt to not go on the yard? Man, yeah, but I think, you know, here's what happens to them, man. If they opt not to go on the yard, they'll be able to stay in the hole for a long time. and who knows how long. You know, I mean, six months a year maybe. And then they're going to go to another joint. That other joint may not be probably more than likely. It's not going to be pedophile friendly either.

So then they're going to get checked in there, and it's going to be revolving circle. But they started to get a handle on that. And that handle was hate crime. And what they started doing, when I was in Yazoo, they started doing it. If you beat up a child molester, they give you a hate crime,

I don't got 10 years for beating up one for hate crime, charging them with a hate crime, you know. and that's how they started eliminating that. So, you know, and I know what was happening, and their shoes were getting filled up everywhere, and they couldn't do anything. They couldn't, you know, these people were causing them lots of problems, so they cracked down on it real hard.

And then, man, well, I was at Springfield, there's lots of them. But the funny part about Springfield, they'd eat standing up. They didn't get no tables. They had to eat standing up. They would eat along the wall by the, you know how you'd have a C-O stand mainline? Well, C-O-Stand Mainline over here,

and they all stand up against the wall and eat real quick and leave, you know. That's how it worked. Now, when you're calling shots, do you have a good relationship with the guards or SIS or the captains or anything? Do you want out with them? Do you have a relationship with them? Oh, yeah, he would a certain amount. I mean, not that you really trust in them all well, loss, and not that you could really tell them

much, but yeah, they'd come to you sometimes and they'd tell you stuff like, hey, man, look, we know, we know this is going on. If it doesn't quit, there's, you know, there's going to be problems over it. and, you know, stuff like that. And, you know, so sometimes if it's something that, something that was legit, you might tell dude, hey, man, chill out, man. They're on to you. Pretty bad, you know, yeah, that, yeah, you do stuff like that sometimes.

Do you ever have someone that comes in that's a part of your car that doesn't respect the shot caller? Oh, yeah. Like two alphas? Yeah, you get beefs. And, you know, sometimes, yeah, and sometimes the shot caller get knocked out and that guy could take over. I mean, and it happens, you know, I mean, it really does. But generally, I mean, it's just. who you pick as your shot call.

You know, you want to get somebody that's not an idiot that's going to get along with everybody and kind of politic a little bit. And basically all the places I've been, that's what we've had, you know. But yeah, there have been some that have been ran off. And, you know, normally get along, though. I mean, normally nobody wants to do it anyway. I mean, it's not a great job to do. Do you think it's needed to have that structure?

Yeah, absolutely is. Yeah, especially, okay, like we take, we, excuse me, we get a new guy in. and say you, you know, you were young. I mean, man, when you came in the system, what, you're 18 years old, you know, and he's so, God, dang, man, you look young now, so I know you look young then, you know. And so, you know, you're going to have, you know,

there's going to be problems, man. So, I mean, we'd get guys like that, we take them under our wing, say, look, these are the rules. This is what you got to do. Anytime you need anything, get a homeboy there, help you out, you know. But follow the rules, you know, sell up with your own, do all this stuff, you know, and you'll be okay, it's not that complicated, you know, and, you know, work out, do stuff,

you know, and usually they do okay, you know, you kind of teach them, teach them the ropes, and they do okay, you know, and that was necessary, real necessary, because otherwise, especially with some of these youngsters nowadays, man, because they're kind of confused anyway, and they come in there and they think that, you know, they just think that they could hang out with whoever they wanted to and do whatever they wanted, and that's not the case in there. And the reason that is, it's because you don't want to start a damn race war, because some guy wants to go eat with them all the time and does something to disrespect one of them

and the next thing you know, you got a race war going on. That's, you know, that's not cool because everybody gets shipped. You know, it's just not a good thing at all. So, I mean, and both, everybody knew that. You know, that's why everybody tried to keep everything down as much as it could, you know. Who do you think was the worst car in there,

like most violent or causes most problems? As far as car-wise? Yeah. Man, I'll tell you what, the gangs could do what they could get away with. You know what I mean? If they could get away with, they do it. If they, if, uh, you were at a place and there was, there was a bunch of gang, a bunch of gang members there and, and their, uh, cars weren't that big and stuff,

they'd run the yard, you know, or they tried to. And, uh, so they, uh, they kept things shook up pretty good, you know, I mean, for the most part. Yeah. Um, that was probably, yeah, yeah, usually the cars weren't violent. I mean, the cars, you, you might have to, you'd have to run some people off, but, I mean, you weren't, you know, the cars weren't, weren't, weren't doing crazy stuff. and they weren't robbing people, and we're trying to, you know, trying to do all that crap, you know. You know, like I say, we're more just looking out for the homeboys and making sure things didn't blow up and, you know, just kind of keeping the lid on everything. Now, you've probably had some bad cellmates over your years. Oh, God, yeah, man.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Especially in the holding facility. Oh, my God, man. That one dude, he didn't want to shower. Jesus Christ, man. What do you do in a situation like that?

Just tell him, man. Tell him. I finally kicked him out. I just kicked him out. He went to another room. But yeah, you get some weird. Oh, the worst ones, I'll tell you, and they're not even, some of the worst ones, and they're not even intentional. Guys are snore bad, man. I couldn't handle it all, man. Guys snore all night, I couldn't handle it. I mean, that was it, man. Or do you hit the bottom of the bunk if you're on the bottom? Yeah, yeah, you know, but I mean, they can't help it. You know, it's really, it's not their fault. It's a medical issue, you know, and that was horrible, man. I'd get rid of somebody that snored real quick. And that was the first thing I'd ask them, man, when they come in, hey, look, you don't snore, do you? And if they did, oh, man, you have to go somewhere else because I couldn't handle it. How did the menu change from the 90s versus?

Our food got horrible. The food, man, the bottom fell out in the, you know, nowadays, it's horrible. Back then, I think what happened back then if you were in the kitchen, if you're a C-O and you're in the kitchen, at least I knew this was how it was for a wall, you could order your own stuff. You could get your own stuff. Like, let's see, and I don't even know what avenue they do it, but a track. actor trailer got in an accident and had a bunch of food on it or something. Those guys, I guess there's a way of process where you can bid on that food and buy it.

Well, they do stuff like that, you know, and they'd get some stuff that wasn't too bad. I mean, we'd have jello cups and all kinds of strange stuff that all of a sudden, you know, that they got for a good price, you know. We got the McRibs. McRibs, yeah, from McDonald's when they got discontinued. Yeah, see, we every once in a while we get stuff like that, you know, and I think they took that away from them, though, because now, at least when I was in Atlanta, you know, when, before I got out, it was just horrible. You couldn't, it was horrible. I mean, the servings, and they're coming back on the money. They've got too many federal prisoners in now. And, you know, they just don't have the money. And I mean, the servings are small. The food was not good.

And you just basically ate your commissary more than anything. And, you know, if you didn't have a job to pay enough to get commissary, you were hit, you know. I mean, it wasn't too good, man. But, you know. I've heard you used to be able to, like, get fresh made eggs in the morning, like on the breakfast line. Oh, yeah. They had, they had, they had. Englewood had eggs to order, and I think Leavenworth did too. And Leavenworth used to have double cheeseburgers, I think it was on Friday. And yeah, and all that's gone now. It's gone, gone, yeah.

And Christmas bags, oh, man, they used to give you. I'll tell you what, when I first started, they give you a Christmas bag like a garbage bag full of candy and stuff, you know, different stuff. Now it's like a, I don't know, it's small now. It's not very big at all, man. It's a very small bag now. But, yeah, it used to be you could just get stuff like that. It was still nice to have. I was surprised we got a Christmas bag.

They just got smaller and smaller, man. They just got so small at the end that, I mean, they weren't very big. Boy, at first, you can get some huge ones, man. But, yeah, they do like a Christmas bingo and stuff, you know, and you could win Christmas bags there and stuff like that. Chicken Thursdays were definitely the best. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, they had lots of chicken. What about the holiday meals? How did those change over time? Man, those were, I don't think those were ever very good, to be honest with you, man. They'd always, they just, I don't know. They weren't great. And I didn't, you know, lots of times I didn't eat in the chow hall, to be honest. I had my hustle going and stuff.

And I had guys bring me stuff. I had a guy that worked in the butcher shop at Leavenworth. He'd bring me like hamburger. It was hamburger one day and the chicken the next in hamburger, you know, and that's basically lived on that. And different stuff, you know, but yeah, at a commissor, I mean, the food always kind of sucked anyway, but it got even worse. I mean, it got to the point where you,

didn't think it'd get any worse than it did. And now I don't know what the poor guys are just living off ramen soups and stuff. I mean, it's horrible, man, the way they feed them. Do you think you saw more horrific things as a paramedic or in prison? Oh, paramedic-wise. I mean, you see guys get beat up, maybe stabbed, but lots of stuff you don't see. You know, I mean, you hear about it, but you don't see it. And guys getting cut up, you know, we had a big riot at Englewood with the serenials and the Indians, the Native Americans. And there was a bunch of Native Americans there. And there's just a few serenials.

There weren't that many serenials, man. There was like 10 serenials or something, like probably 150 Native Americans. And it had to do with a TV. They took over one of the serenuals TVs. And so they thought they were okay doing it because they thought there was only 10 on. They're not going to do anything.

Well, they got the pises and stuff to ride with them, you know, because they're same people. And so they got them all to ride with them. Boy, I'll tell you what, They went out in the yard and I was out there and they're trying to land a life flight helicopter in the yard. And the cops like, no, no, we're in the parking lot. You know, I mean, you're going to land a helicopter in the dam. And they didn't have helicopter wire there.

And so they're like I say, they're trying to land a life flight helicopter in the yard. And basically the Native Americans were sorry they made that move after everything went down. And it was a mess, man. but you see some stuff like that. And a lot of times, you know, people try to get along for the most part they do. I mean, as much as possible, you know, you have Homeboys fight probably more than anything. You know, I mean, it's the way it is, you know, sometimes. What about violence against guards?

Did you see that over your time? Yeah, Springfield sometimes in some places you would. But for most, if a guy was really drunk or something, you might, you know, he might do something like that. But as far as absolutely intentionally, no. Now, they told the story in Leavenworth, and it happened right before I got there, and right when they quit carrying tobacco, there was a guy there, and the cop saw he had tobacco and he took his tobacco. And he beat the cop.

He beat the shit out of the cop. I mean, beat him bad. And, you know, and that's one of the stories. You know, that actually, that happened. But otherwise, most people leave the cops alone. I mean, you beat a cop. you're in for a world to hurt. Let me tell you what, first off, you're going to get your ass beat.

You know, don't think they're not going to beat your ass when they get you away from everybody. And, you know, they're going to put you in the shoe, and they're probably put you in the shoe with somebody that you're going to have to fight or something bad in the shoe, you know, and you're going to get a charge. And, man, you're staying in the shoe for a very long time. You know what I mean? It'd be very uncomfortable living, you know what I mean? Most people's got any sense to evaluate that in their head and think, man, this might not be a good

path to go down, you know? and because it's not, you know, and they know that too. That's why they act like they act. You know, I mean, they know that. They know chances are really good that you're not going to do anything to them. So they can talk crazy and do all that other stuff, you know. Now, what about contraband? I mean, over time, did you start to see cell phones and things that you didn't have in the free world before?

Yeah, when I first started my bit, of course, they didn't even have cell phones weren't out there, really. But then after all, you know, especially when you get to the lower facilities, lower level facilities like at the end I was at a camp man people had cell phones everywhere you know what I mean it was it was it was interesting I mean they had lots of cell phones and stuff there but and that's how it was you know at the lower the lower the custody level the more more phones and stuff you know there were but you take a camp you know at a camp like I was at a Marion camp and you got all you got a big wooded area all the way around it you know people just drive up

and throw a duffel bag of stuff out you know you get somebody go run up and get it and bring it back Was it weird for you being at a camp? Yeah, it was different, man. It was real different because, and especially medical-wise, you know, I got some skin cancer here and there, you know, I have to go out and get it taken off. And they just have the camp driver run me up, you know. And I'm like, wow, you know, no shackles, no belly chain, no, you know, nothing like, no black box, you know.

Yeah, it was pretty cool. You probably heard rumors of what camps are like throughout your time. I had, and I'd heard they were pretty much like that, you know, and they were. They were. I mean, Marion Camp was, you know, some of the camp. aren't that good, but that was pretty laid back camp. And they had educational opportunities. That's what the federal system really lacks is they don't train these guys,

you know, and I'll tell you a story in a minute when I got out. But you just don't have the training. Now, when I was at the camp at Marion, they had a wastewater program, and I took it and I got certified. When I got out, I got a job doing that, you know. But lots of them, that was like the only program they had, you know what I mean? And you saw that when I first started my bit, there's a lot more programs and there's towards the end.

There was just lots of less. They just didn't have very many. Why do you think that was? I don't know if it's because they didn't give a damn or, you know, the wrong people running the BOP or what it is. I don't know. I don't know, but they should have had. You know, they should. There's all kinds of stuff they could do.

You know, you could get certified. They could get your CDL license in a camp, you know, all that stuff. I mean, they should do it. Like I said, we had the waste wall. That was about the only really program we had. But it came in handy to have that. I mean, it did. And I would have taken, you know, I like, I mean, if it was something I wanted to do,

I'd program, you know. I mean, I didn't mind program at all if it was interesting stuff, you know, and wastewater was kind of interesting. But they, yeah, there just wasn't much of that, man. Like I say, when, you know, when I got out, it was, I lost, you know, I was on a 35-year bit. And what happened was good time, or not good time, but they did a drugs minus two.

And so that took two levels off my case. I actually qualified for that. And that gave me like eight years off my sentence. And so when I got that eight years off my sentence, I was in Springfield. And so I shot me straight over the camp. And then when I got to the camp, COVID hit. And man, nobody, you know, nobody at the camp was sick with it. So I didn't think it was any big deal.

You know, I'm like, well, I was sick here. So, you know. But next thing, you know, one day I'm out. I'm out and, uh, handling my business, you know, I'm out, I'm out at the sewer plant and I'm bagging up tobacco, you know, because you just got a big shipment of tobacco and, you know, so I'm out there bagging it up and everything, get ready to take it in, you know, and I'm, I'm up there and some dude comes running down, man, he's like, man, they've been calling for you, man, all day, they've been calling for you, you know, and I'm like, well, I better get down

there, I want to come down here looking for me. And, uh, so I go down there and you got, you got, like, his case managers from next door, I don't even know who they are. And five or six, I'm in a room, you know, sitting around a table. and had me come in and I'm thinking, man, am I getting busted for, you know, maybe I'm getting busted for all this tobacco or something, you know. And they're like, they're like, well, and actually they said to me, too, this was crazy. They said, well, where are you at? We can try and get a hold of you all day.

What were you out in the woods getting, you know? And I don't, oh, man, this dude hit it right on the head, you know. I'm like, oh, no, I was working. I work wastewater. I can't hear you down here, you know. And anyway, so he goes, what would you do if we let you out today? Who would you call? I said, I said, I said, a might.

dad, you know, call my dad, and where would you stay? And I said, it was my dad, you know. And they said, okay. And I said, wait a minute, what's this about, you know? Oh, you know, nothing. Nothing. We're just, you know, it's just something, you know, it's no big deal. Don't worry about it. And so I left, you know, and they wouldn't tell me anything else. And, well, they called a couple other guys in later on that day and asked them the same thing, you know. So we kind of know something's up, you know, and kind of hear rumors about maybe the COVID thing, maybe not, you know. And So later on, I got to talk to one of the secretaries and I asked her, and she said, yeah, what they're doing is they're seeing, they're making a list of potential people that they can let out because there's COVID epidemic. They're trying to drop the population, some, some, you know, and I think, well, God, man, you know, I wouldn't think I'd be a good candidate.

You know, on my case, you know, I was a leader organizer. I had a, I had a gun, you know, I got five years wild with a gun. I had 100 pounds weight, you know. I've been in a couple of fights in the system. been, you know, been in trouble a few times, you know, but I did work my way down, you know, and, but I didn't think I was going to be, I thought it was kind of strange you'd even consider me, you know, and, you know, but, so, so anyway, you know, I wait, and it's like, this probably a week goes by, and they, and I didn't think anything was going to happen, and they send

the probation people, the halfway house people out to my dad's house to check it out, and then I thought, man, maybe something is going to happen, you know, and, you know, because they come out they check, make sure you don't have any guns or anything, you know, so somewhere you can go, it's not going to cause problems. And so sure enough, man, this all happened like within a three-week span of time, you know, here I am, you know, 21 years or 23 years at that point, 23 years in prison. And the next week, I'm sitting in the shoe waiting, I'm in the shoe for like, I think four days. And they had to, they took my temperature every day to make sure I didn't have COVID because, and this is a funny part about it. If you had COVID, you didn't get to leave.

But you're relieving because of COVID. Because they didn't want you to get COVID. You know, that was the crazy part. And boy, I don't think I didn't sweat that, man. Every time that nurse came by and took my temperature, I'm like, you know, is it okay? Is it okay? And, man, I got out. I mean, they just let me out.

I didn't have a clue. I didn't know how to work a damn gas pump. You know, because everything's debit card and credit card and all this. And I didn't know how to go to a quick trip. So I didn't know how to pay for food. Man, I couldn't get the machine to work. Cell phones. I had a cell phone.

I couldn't, man, I couldn't get it to work half the time, you know. And I was on house arrest for two and a half years is what it was. Because I only had two and a half years that left in my bit, but I was on a house arrest for two and a half years. And, you know, now I'm on a regular federal probation. But yeah, it was different. Everything was different out here. You know, I mean, it was a lot. It was hard to get used to.

It was strange. It was really strange. Do you feel like the system, the prison system specifically, should have better prepared you for your release? They don't, I don't think they prepare anybody very good. That's been down for a long time, no. I think if you got a long sentence, they write you off. You know what I mean?

They pretty much, and maybe statistically it agrees with them. I don't know. But, you know, I think they write you off and they figure out, man, you don't worry about him. We're going to focus more on people we're going to get out, you know. And lots of these programs they got, even back then, they wouldn't let you take the program if you had too much time. You had to be short, you know, which I think is kind of lame, you know, I mean, because, you know, then, you know, like it was there, two or Three years later, the program was gone. And when you're eligible, you couldn't go, you know, you couldn't do it.

So. What did you eat first when you got out? What was your first meal? I'm trying to think. What did I eat first? Oh, Taco Bell. Did they have Taco Bell before you were? Mm-hmm.

And you know what? Taco Bell sucks now. And I mean, it does. And McDonald's and all of it. It's horrible. I don't even like any of it. And it was actually, I don't know what's going on. But it was better back then, at least in my mind it was.

I liked it a lot's better back then. Nowadays, it's like they've cut back everything. I mean, you could really, you know, stepping out and stepping back in that period of time, you really tell the difference, man. And, I mean, it was horrible. I mean, I guess everybody out here on the street just got weaned down, you know, and they just, you know, cut back a little bit here and a little bit there until it got to the point where it was that. But not me, man, I was, you know, it's like, man, this is a burrito supreme. You know, there's hardly any sour cream on this thing, what the hell is going on, you know. Was there anything they have on the menu now that they didn't have back then or vice versa?

I don't know. I can't think of anything really as far as a, I don't know because I, you know, I don't go to any of them anymore. I don't go any of the fast food places anymore. I just don't like them. I mean, it's so expensive. Everything's so expensive. That's another thing. Oh my God, I can't believe how expensive everything is. It's unbelievable, man. Yeah, I remember back in the day you get 10 bucks to go to like McDonald's. You can't get anything for that, like to a meal. Yeah, now it's $20 more. And the thing is like, I remember, you know, you know, being in for that long, you know, I didn't know because I knew what the prices were when I went in. When I come out, oh my God, man, they're a, you know, I used to buy a bag of Doritos for a big bag for like $2.50.

Now they're like, $6, you know, and I'm like, my God, what, you know. How is your digestive system coming out of eating, you know, commissary food with all that sodium for that many years? Man, I worked out so hard. I think I burned lots of it off, you know. But I'll tell you what, the chicken made me sick for a long time. I couldn't eat the chicken for probably the first couple years, man. It was just, I don't know what it was, but it just kind of made me sick. But I, I worked out so much. I think, you know, pretty much high sodium levels and stuff were gone.

You know, I just sweat it all out and stuff. I mean, I probably, I mean, I, really, I didn't eat enough. I seemed like as much as I worked out, you know, but it, and lots of it, yeah, you know, the commissured food's not good. I mean, it's all prepared, preservatives, all that stuff, high sodium, all that. And, yeah, it's not the best thing in the world at all. you know, you're not getting anything fresh, you know. Was freedom what you expected it to be?

I expected it to be better, to be honest with you. It's kind of, and it might sound crazy, and people out there probably saying, man, that's stupid, but it was really the case. I think you build it up to a little bit more than what it is, you know. I don't know. I mean, you, I don't know, you know, everybody's forgot about you by the time.

You did 23 years, everybody forgot about you by the time you got out, you know, life goes on, man. You're not, you know, you're not on their minds anymore. You know, they're moving. They're moving on. And so definitely. different from that aspect, you know. But what about?

And people were dead, you know, lots of people. I mean, man, my whole, basically, everybody, my family died, you know, I was in prison. I mean, all of them, you know, wasn't, uh, wasn't too many people left, you know. So what about having a girlfriend for the first time? What's that like? That was kind of wild, man. You're nervous, you know. Man, you're definitely nervous.

But it's, you know, but there's a certain stigma, too. I mean, you, you know, you come out of prison, you're all tattered up, your head shaved, You know, you get a big long beard and, you know, that doesn't open you up to hold lots of classy women, you know. But, you know, and, you know, they're not, you know, I don't know. I mean, I think, you know, it is what it is, but it was different. It was definitely different. It was like starting over again. I mean, definitely.

Is it a hard to adapt to not being used to prison politics? Like, say you're in line somewhere or just. Yeah, I see it all the time. I see disrespect. It's just, oh, my God, man. Disrespect of runs ramped out here. I've never seen anything like it, man. And people tolerate it.

You know, that's a thing, man. But I'm going to tell you this too now. And like in Missouri, everybody, you know, I told my case manager this before, you know, my probation officer, I told him, you know, I liked it better when I was going carrying the gun. You know what I mean? But like in the state of Missouri, everybody, you don't have to have a care permit. You can just carry a gun, no matter what, you can carry a gun. You know, and I can't carry a gun. So, you know, you got to watch out, man, because they get their nuts pumped up on that.

You know, these guys that aren't worth going to be able to do anything. They got a gun on now. So they talk shit or whatever. They pull that gun out on you. And you can scare them enough. We're allowed to shoot you, you know. So kind of watch out for that, man. It's kind of weird.

What happens to all your possessions and everything you owned, you know, almost 30 years prior? Way gone. They, man, the feds wiped me out. And what the feds didn't get. Other people stole. You know what I mean, just everything, man. Gone, gone. Yeah, you know how it is, man.

They just come out of the woodwork, take everything you got. And like I say, I mean, it's, yeah, I started out with nothing. I mean, I didn't have anything when I got out. I mean, nothing, not a vehicle, nothing, you know. How long did it take you to, you know, feel like, okay, I got this? You know, I can do this. Oh, I always felt, I mean, I felt pretty good about being able to stay out, you know, and stuff like that. Just because I'd been in so long, I didn't want to go back, you know.

It was definitely more, even though it was kind of a little bit of letdown in someone. ways it was definitely lots more fun you know i mean ride dirt bikes ride street bikes you know date women do you know stuff like that it's kind of motivational factor to stay out of trouble but uh you know did you make like a bucket list when you're in there things you wanted to do when you got out yeah kind of i mean not really so much a bucket list but yeah there were certain things i did want to do you know i mean i mean i had to build the bike the bike garage back up you know i did certain bikes i wanted to get when i got out and i did i got me a dirt bike real quick when i got back out and because that's one of the things I like doing, you know,

and I got me an old Harley. Actually, I got me an old Harley. That's another story. I got me an old Harley. I got me a panhead. They took all my bikes, you know, when I got bused. And I had a bunch of old bikes and stuff like that. Well, so I'm in, so when I'm in prison, I got this,

I got this cop bringing me to his back on stuff all the time. Well, I got this partner in mine. His name's John, I told John, I said, John, when you get out, man, look around, see if you can find me an old scooter, you know. And man, John, what a good dude, man. He came through. And he calls me up one day and he says, hey, look, man, I've got this, I got this dude's got a panhead, you know,

here sell it to you, man, because you're in prison. He's, you know, he appreciates the fact you're wanting to bike, you know, he knows how it is. And, well, I had money, but this is what I did with my money is, okay, when I got disciplinary out of Leavenworth, I went to Yazoo City, Mississippi, horrible place. So I hit Yazoo, and I've got $12,000 on my books. They didn't take the money, they didn't charge me and do anything.

It let me have money and everything, man. I couldn't believe, you know. It's strange, but they let me have it all. And so that's back when the stock market tanked. I mean, the stock market bottomed out, you know. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, man, I'm checking it out, you know, and I'm looking at places like region, RF, regions financial, you know, they were going for $30 a share.

Now they're going for 50 cents a share. And you've got to think, man, they're not going to let the banks. The government can't let the banks fell because if the banks fell, the country fell. That's not going to happen. So I took all that money and I put it in stocks, man. I had this, and I got a TD Meritrade account. And I'd call TD Meritrade over the prison phone, and they'd accept my phone call. And like, it was nothing, you know what I mean?

Like, everybody was doing it. You know, they didn't see anything about being in prison. Sometimes I, and it was more expensive then because I had to do a, I had to do it through them. It was like $40 a damn trade. And sometimes I'd get it for less. So sometimes I'd say, hey, man, I'm in prison. Can't you cut me a break? And they'd give me like a $10 special and stuff, you know.

And it was pretty cool. And I made a lot of money on the market. I made a lot of money. I ended up buying, you know, buying a Harley and, you know, having a little bit of money. I've lost lots of it. Then COVID hit, and, boy, I took a big hit right before I got out. It's like, you know, it's like it zeroed me out again almost, you know. But if you stayed in, didn't it bring back to normal?

Yeah, if you're smart enough to stay in. Oh, you cashed out? Yeah, I cashed out. I had Brazilian. I had, I had an exchange traded funds in Brazil, and I'd made lots of money. I'd made like $30,000 off these funds, you know. And COVID hit, man. And COVID hit Brazil hard and I hung on too long.

I should have just got out quick and taken a smaller loss, you know. Now, you don't have to file a tax return when you're in prison, right? If you make less than $12,000 a year, which I did, yeah, you do not. And that is funny, too, because they tried to get me. IRS sent me a thing on my stocks wanting to know why they didn't get any money from. And I wrote them back and said, man, I'm in federal prison. You know, I can't, I don't make no money, you know. They sent the letter to prison?

Yeah, yeah, sent the letter to prison. And I send them a thing back saying, you know, I can't, I don't even, you know, I don't make any money. You know, so they, they never, I never heard back from. Was it weird to file a tax return after, you know, that long? Well, see, after they did that, I started filing tax returns, even though I didn't have to pay tax. It's just to be on the safe side. But, yeah, I said, why my cousin? He does it.

I don't mess with it anymore, you know, so I just give him the stuff. And, you know, norm, I don't get anything back. And you got the COVID stimulus payments, right? I did, as a matter of fact. I'm thinking, let's see, was I out? Yeah, I was out before I got them up. But some guys got them, some guys were getting them in prison even, you know. It helped the prison economy.

Yeah, man. Yeah, I got them, I got both of them. And now the first one, I was still in prison, but what happened was I had a P.O. Box, and it was damn expired P. I didn't know it was expired. And they sent the money there, and it came back to them. So they just held on to it. So it took me a wall to get that when I got out.

I had to jump through some hoops to get that money, you know. And by that time, they had a second stimulus. So that was pretty cool. I'd help with the dirt bike fund for sure. What do you regret missing out on life the most? Oh, my kids, you know, I didn't, you know, that's probably the worst thing. So you have kids? Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Do you have a relationship with them now? With my daughter, yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I mean, hell, I was gone. Their whole, their whole exit. I mean, they were like, they were seven years old, I think, when I got locked up. You know, I get out now, my daughter's like, you know,

and now she's like 30-something, you know, she's 33 or 31, something like that. And that's a long time, you know. Yeah, and, and of course, I don't know. I didn't like trying to talk to them that much while I was in there. You know, I mean, just, I don't know. You know, you put everything aside, you know, and, you know, that's your world in there, not out here, and you try, you can't look both. And, yeah, it was, but me and her, we get along pretty good, you know, my boy, he don't talk to me.

What about your sister? She's dead. She died when I was in prison. My mom died when I was in prison. prison. She, yeah, I lost a lot of people with all my grandparents. Lots of people died when I said, it sucks. How does that affect you? You know, you don't never get to see them again, you know what I mean? It's just people you would like to see again and I'd like to talk to you, you don't get to see. So it's kind of,

it's a drag. It ain't very much fun. Do you think you needed that much time to deter you from selling drugs again? Man, I was, I was cured. I was probably cured my first year, you know what I mean? Seriously. I mean, no. That kind of time isn't, that serves no purpose other than extreme punishment, man. That's just ridiculous. You didn't kill anyone? Huh? You didn't kill anyone?

No, that's ridiculous, man. You know, I mean, 35 years are dope. You know, come on, man. I mean, it's not like I was forcing people to buy it. It's not, you know, it's, again, it's political, man. It's money. It's money for them. You know, I mean, it's all political.

It's how they control Mexico. It's how they do all this other stuff. You know, I mean, that's how they do it. They don't, you know, it's a lot of politics involved in all that stuff. And they, you know, I don't know. Boy, I'll tell you what, though. Yeah, they taught me a lesson. You know, like I said, I got 35 years right off the bat.

And I didn't figure I would. I didn't figure they'd get me. You know, how are they going to get me? They didn't catch them as any dope, you know. But they get you by people telling you, you know, that's crazy. I mean, because all those people lie and they know they lie. They suborn that, you know, they suborn that perjury. I mean, they do.

They know it. They know what they're lying. They don't care. You know, D.A. knows this. Prosecutt an attorney knows that they all know it. But all that, but they want to get you the numbers. You know, they want to put the numbers on you so they don't care. You know, that's sad, man. It's really bad. I mean, they just, you know, they found a way to basically they found a way to shortcut the whole justice system, you know, they do. What's the most important life lesson you want to share to someone today? You know, I think it's important. It's real important to be flexible enough to live in any environment you're in. You know, kind of like a chameleon, you know what I mean? Because you don't never know where you're going to end up. And you've got to make the most of it, and you've got to be able to deal with it. And that's it, you know what I mean?

Just make the most of your circumstances. And it might get better. Hell, it might not. I don't know. You know what I mean? But at least you're not wasting your time. I mean, you know, it's better to enjoy your suffering than just to suffer. You know, I mean, you got to, you know, you got to make the most of it.

You really do. What's next for you? Oh, man, I'm just kind of taking it easy, retired dirt bike riding and building bikes. I've got a, I've got where I'm going to start building some choppers and stuff, you know, and I'm building a chopper for a guy right now, you know, it's pretty cool. And that's just what I'm into, you know, I'm just kind of an old retired guy, you know what I mean? And that's really bad. I don't care about doing anything but dirt bike riding and building bikes.

That's about it. You know, nothing else really matters anymore. I don't know. I don't watch TV. I don't know. You know, a pretty quiet guy. That's awesome, man. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to come out here today and be on the show.

I appreciate it, too, man. Yeah. And I wish you the best with your retirement and the future. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Awesome.