Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was A Prison Captain - This Is What I Witnessed | D'Ann Kennedy

Episode Date: July 23, 2024

D'Ann Kennedy, a seasoned prison captain with years of experience, shares some of the most astonishing and unforgettable moments she's encountered during her career. From jaw-dropping inmate antics to unexpected acts of kindness, D'Ann provides an insider's perspective on the unpredictable and often surreal world behind bars. Her stories highlight the challenges and surprises that come with maintaining order in a prison environment, shedding light on the human side of those who live and work within the system. Tune in for an eye-opening look at the wildest things seen on the job by someone who's seen it all. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Thank you to our sponsor this week: BetterHelp: This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at https://www.betterhelp.com/lockedin and get on your way to being your best self plus 10% off your first month Connect with D'Ann Kennedy: https://www.tiktok.com/@d_ann12?_t=8oGM8GffHln&_r=1 Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Searching the Prison Cells 00:05:34 - A Surprising Encounter with an Inmate 00:11:13 - Therapy and Personal Growth 00:17:13 - Being Firm and Consistent in Enforcing Rules 00:23:16 - Life and Lessons from the Job 00:29:16 - Life in the Air Force 00:35:13 - Adjusting to the New Job as a Correctional Officer 00:41:07 - Concerns of Job Safety and Retirement 00:47:08 - Retirement Plans and Job Security 00:52:51 - Weird and Strange Things in Prison 00:58:37 - Attacked by an Inmate 01:04:46 - The Scuffle in Prison 01:10:35 - "Fights and Difficult Conversations" 01:16:28 - The Misconception about the Criminal Justice System 01:22:29 - Misconceptions about Prison Guards 01:28:07 - Moving Facilities and Diesel Therapy 01:33:31 - Corrections Officer from Missouri Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Graham and Hemmy are registered trademarks of FCAUS LLC. A lot of staff members had been getting stabbed. So they call out teams from all over the state to go. And basically, like, search the prison and just kind of, like, try to restore order the best that we can. Try to find weapons, try to find drugs and try to get those things out of the facility to try to, like, calm things down. So we went and we were just doing cell searches. It wasn't like a riot control sort of situation. It was just a show of, like, force, like a show of presence.

Like, we have these people here and we're trying to search. And so normally the way it goes is like you and a couple other people will walk up to a cell and you'll tell the offenders like, hey, go to the back of your cell and one of you at a time come over here and we'll put restraints on you and then we'll search yourself. And normally it goes okay. Not always, but my two sergeants at the time, they were with me and we were kind of like just around this door. And we walked up and the inmates had their heads wrapped like with their bed sheets and whatever and they had their fists wrapped.

And I was like, I was like, what are they doing? Deanne, welcome to Lockton. I got to say I'm always interested of what a guest will look like when they come in through the door based on their story. And when your thing said, you know, corrections, captain,

I was not expecting you. And I don't think the audience will be either. But it's awesome because it's such like a unique perspective. Yeah. I was thinking someone like maybe in their 40s or 50s because we don't get age. We don't ask for any of that info. And we don't like have anyone send in a picture.

Yeah. So it's interesting, you know? I get that a lot. Yeah, I get that a lot. My sister will tell people that I, what I do, and she'll show them a picture. And they're like, that's your sister? The one that you said, she worked in the prison. And she's like, yeah.

And they're always like, okay, interesting. Like, they don't expect it either. Yeah, and I think every correctional officer we've had on the show, they all, like, look the part. Yeah. So. I don't look the part. When you say it, no. So I've, like, I've seen correctional officer.

officers that look like you in federal prison and they always have such a hard time. So like I feel for you in that regard too. And then hearing some of the stories, which I'm sure you've heard on the show of what some of these inmates do to, you know, attractive correctional officers. It's, crazy. Yeah. I do have a hard time sometimes. It hasn't always been bad. Like, obviously there are there are boundaries that you set and like as soon as you come in, you set those boundaries. And then there's guys that are going to push those boundaries. But I feel like it's, as long as you're firm and you're the same with everybody, like word gets around.

Like, inmates talk to each other. If they'll let, I've even had a situation before where, like, an inmate who was new to our facility was just, like, yelling at me in my face. All over, I think I told him he had to put a shirt on because, like, in the common area, they have to wear their shirts. And he got loud with me and crazy with me,

and there have been times where even other inmates are, like, she's not, like, she's all right. Like, you just have to do what she says, you know. So I think if you set boundaries, really early and then being at the same facility helps too like every time i've moved facilities like promotion wise it's a whole new set of inmates and it's a whole new set of like them figuring me out and me figuring them out so i've had a tough time but i like it yeah i've noticed the correctional officers that are one way with one inmate and a different way with others they're the ones that have

the worst time and they're usually the ones that are doing something they shouldn't be doing yeah there's no reason to treat any it's hard sometimes especially like with certain behavior, like if a certain inmates just always like a knucklehead, you know, like you obviously want to kind of, maybe I shouldn't. Sometimes you want to be like stricter or harsher with them because they can be annoying or whatever, but if you're the same way all the time, it makes things way easier. And there's no reason like, why would I be nicer to one guy than the other? Because like you said, it makes it seem suss.

Like what are you doing that you're not supposed to be doing, you know? Yeah, whenever we've seen like female officers do that in the federal prison, that's when the rumors start flying. she's sleeping with this inmate, she's doing this, and then it's just all over from there. And then it's true sometimes. Most of the time, it's true. It's unfortunate. It pisses me off too because then I get that rep, you know, and like that's part of why I have a hard time because it's happened.

It's true. And I'm like, I'm making a bad name for the rest of us, you know. Yeah. I will say there was one time that I struggled with, I didn't treat him differently, but I wanted to treat this one inmate differently. not a romantic situation at all. But he actually was stationed. He was an Air Force veteran, and he was stationed at Whiteman,

which is where I'm stationed and where my now husband is stationed. We weren't all there at the same time or anything, so we didn't know each other. But I think his story was he was driving to Kansas City. He was almost getting out. His enlistment was up and he was going to get out of the military. And something about, like, he had gone out with friends,

and he ended up driving drunk and hitting someone head on and the person died. So he ended up in prison just, miles away from Whiteman Air Force Base. He's not even from Whiteman. He just got stationed there. And he was always so respectful. Like, he didn't do anything. Like, he literally didn't have any conduct violations. Like, no history of, like, write-ups or anything. So anytime, like, he would ever do something that he really wasn't supposed to, something small, like, one time he took spinach out of the chow hall, you know? And, like, you're supposed to have, like, a CRD or something,

like a certified religious diet or something. And so I stopped him and I was like, what do you have? and he's like, come on. And I was like, what, because he's just, and, and if I remember correctly, he was my age, too. Like, I'm in the Air Force at this time, and I know that he was in the Air Force because you hear, you hear about the story. So, it was hard for me to not see him as, like, just like me, you know, or just like one of my friends. So, um, he was like, come on, man.

And he didn't want to, like, look at me. And I was like, give me what you have in your hand. And he, like, held his hand out into this sad little bag of, like, four leaves of spinach. I was like, why are you taking spinach? And he was like, the food here is awful. I just want a vegetable. And I was like, I can't let you have this spinach.

I can't let you take it. And he was like, Miss Kagle, really? And I was like, yeah, man, I have to take your spinach. And he was like, I think he was just like wishing I would let him have it. And I was like, no, I've got to take it from you. And he's like, okay. And he's like walking away to his housing unit. And I was like, I don't know if I, like, some of it's like, some

Sometimes you write them up if they're stealing stuff. Sometimes it's petty to write them up. But like it depends on their behavior. Like if I take something that you stole and you want to be rude about it, I'm probably going to write you up. You know? But so I sat down at the computer to check and see and he had zero conduct violations. Like I'm not going to put paperwork on you because you took four leaves of spinach, you know? And then since I didn't write him up for that, I've always been like, damn.

Like was I playing favorites? Because he just like looking at him, he looked like somebody I would have worked with. Like somebody I, he was somebody that was in the military. So I was always like, and anytime, anytime I would see him, it was hard for me not to be like, what's up, man? You know, instead of like, just more professional with him because you have to stay professional with everybody or that's how you start getting, you know, you start getting in hot water. But I remember him. And then that was when I was a sergeant. And then I promoted a way to a different institution.

And when I came back, he was still there. But he looked awful. He had been to a treatment center, and he did get a female staff member involved with him. Oh, wow. And so they put him in SEG. And so when I saw him, he was like, hey, Ms. Kagle. And I was like, hey. You know, like, I didn't remember him fully.

So I asked for his ID, and I looked at his picture, and I was like, I was like, you look bad. What do you? He was like, hey, come on. You know, he starts fixing his hair. I was like, not to be mean to you, but like, you look rough. Like, why are you? What happened to you? And he was like, I've been in the whole, I was like, what did you do?

And he was like, nothing. And I was like, what did you do? Because I knew he wasn't like a troublemaker. He was like messing around with a CO at the treatment center. And I was like, come on, man. He was like, there's nothing to do, man. I'm bored. He was like, it's boring.

I didn't need to be at treatment anyway. I was just a drunk military guy. But it was hard sometimes to not be, like, friendly with him as if he was a buddy because he was somebody very similar to somebody I would have in my circle. So, and then it also, I would just, like, I'd go home sometimes and be like, damn, like, one, like, drunk driving mistake. And, like, that could be my life. It was, anyway. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That just went viral on TikTok and, and it's on YouTube. That was an incredible episode.

And that's literally what you're describing just with the males version. Yeah. And he wasn't a correctional officer, but he was, he was, I think. I think he was a cop in the Air Force, like an Air Force cop. Or even still military. But either way, yeah, like he was a very, what society would look at as like a, you know, a decent person. He was contributing to society. He was serving his country.

And then one mistake. And then he was in prison. Do you see that a lot of the inmates? Like, do you ever look into their backstories and kind of feel for them and see that? We're really not supposed to because it kind of like changes your perception. Like if you, if they have a horrific crime or something that. is like close that you would take, you know what I'm talking about, like certain crimes. Like you're not really supposed to look into what they do because it might alter the way that you do your job.

I wonder if they teach all of the correctional officers, even in the feds too, because I know they're prolific for searching a person because they're just sitting there on the computer all day and they'll be like, they'll find out stuff like at FCOs like drag me up and say, hey, like I was reading this about you or this and that. Yeah, I'm not saying I haven't done it. I'm just saying. I really do try to stay away from it. A lot of times, like the only time I'll really ever look into it is if, like, we have a behavioral issue with one of them. Because then I'm curious about what their mental health score is or what they are in there for. Like, do they have a violent history? What are their conduct violations?

And you can look into all that other stuff without really looking into the details of their crime. It happens still sometimes. But that's really about the only time. But that's more so that I can handle them accordingly. You can't, you're not going to get results from every inmate the same way. Like one inmate, if you yell at them and tell them to shut up, they'll be like, okay, cool, yeah, I'm going to shut up. And then if you do that to another one, like, they might hit you.

You don't know. So that's been like the most, like, that's been the reason I've looked into what they've done before, but sometimes it just happens. Sometimes you just hear about it. Like there's rumor and then you're like, oh, I wonder if that's true, you know. But it's helped me to not be biased when I do my job. That's great, and I'm sure it's going to be refreshing for a lot of our audience to hear that. Yeah.

Because they do hear a lot of the corrupt stories, and we have had some good ones on the show. But this is a different perspective, which is great. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Growing up, I had no idea what therapy was, and I never thought I would ever need it in my life. That is until I ended up getting sentenced to three years in federal prison, and the judge ordered me to do one year of mental health treatment, also known as therapy. I would meet with her for one hour, once a week, for an entire year, and she ended up giving me insight about who I am as a person and how my childhood ultimately led me down the path

that I ended up choosing that got me into trouble. That one year, a therapy was an absolute game changer in my life and my perspective and what my thoughts are on my past, my present, and my future. I strongly believe that I would not be the person I am today without that year of therapy. On this show, we hear heartbreaking stories from individuals from all walks of life who honestly could have just used some one-on-one time with a person in a safe environment that they could trust to tell them all of their issues, struggles, and their thoughts going through their mind. That's exactly why I support going to therapy. And if you're thinking about going to

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focusing with BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com slash locked in to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P slash locked in to get 10% off your first month. Now let's get back into this episode with Deanne Kennedy. Yeah, I've seen it. Like I've seen that there have been people that aren't the best, but, and I'm not trying to sound like a spokesperson for my job, but I have met like some of the best people I've ever met, like working in the facility, the employees, because I think that, at least the circle I keep, we all know that like one dumb mistake, you know, and like we could be there. A lot of people say, like, you guys are no different than us, but we just didn't get caught. And that might not be true for everybody. Like, I haven't, I haven't

committed certain crimes that they have, but I could have, you know, like something small, like driving drunk and then catastrophic something happens or having someone in your car and they have something on them. Just like something so small could alter your life. And so I think a lot of us know that and I think that's why a lot of us are not like on a power trip or corrupt or whatever. Like we're not there to feel special, you know. Yeah. And it also could be like the demographic in the area. It could be. I mean, I'm sure it's a lot. less crazy, I'm sure it's crazy, but a lot less than, say, like, a Rikers Island. Yeah, yeah, that's true, too.

I saw a lot more of it in Texas, actually, but I think that's just because the facilities I was at down there were bigger, so there were more staff members. So you're just, if there's more people, you're going to see more mess ups, you know. But, like, one time this guy that I was, like, pals with, too, I'm going to sound like such a, I'm going to sound like such a tattletail. But I've always been the type of person that's like, if I do what I'm supposed to be doing, then like it's true like I don't know if you've seen it but like inmates if they know you're dirty then like they're not going to fully respect what you're doing and they might not ever fully respect you but if I'm not doing what I'm supposed to be doing but I'm trying to tell you to do something you're going to be like I just saw what you were doing like you know you might not want to listen

to me um so this this guy that I was friends with he was he was working one of the wings and he was standing kind of like propped up against the cell bars with his arms like all shift and I like I kept because I was running keys I was walking back and forth and opening doors it was very old um and I kept being like why is he standing at that cell and then at the end of the shift we wore long sleeves down there at the end of the shift in the parking lot when we're all getting ready to go he was like guys look what I did today and he rolls his sleeve up and he has a fresh tattoo he was getting a tattoo from an inmate and like that's not the worst that I've seen but I was like don't show me that it's like I don't want to see that he was like are you going to tell on me I was like I'm not going to lie if they

asked me I didn't go tell but I told the truth when I was asked about it and he was like you would you would tell them I was like if they asked me I'm going to tell them like I don't want to get in trouble I don't want to be because you don't like you don't get respect that way like by anybody by staff or by inmates like if they know you're doing something you're not supposed to they're going to look at you like you're not even doing what you're supposed to. Don't tell me what I'm supposed to. No, one of the questions I've always asked, like, officers and guards that come on the show is what lessons they were taught from the person that was training them when they first got on the job.

Was the respect thing, one of the main ones of how to gain respect from inmates? Yeah, like, I think the thing that it almost sounds like a broken record because we tell everybody is the consistency in being firm. Because if you go in, one of the, they say it's firm, very consistent is what they always say. And it sounds like a load of crap, but it's really not. Like I tell staff members, especially like female staff members, that I know they're going to deal, because I work in a men's facility. I've never worked with women.

But I know that they're going to deal with things that most male officers aren't going to deal with as far as like treatment from the inmates. I always tell them like just be the same way with them. and don't be too, like, relaxed at first because it's way easier to go in and be firm, not, like, hey, look at me, I'm a big bad cop. Like, don't go in there like that. That's not going to be good for anybody. But just, like, go in there and, like, be firm on enforcing the rules and be firm on, like, make sure your uniform looks good. Like, because presentation is huge. Like, your psychological presence means almost as much as you actually being, like, people being like, oh, that person's squared away.

I'm not going to get anything past them. So just being firm all the time and being consistent. And then, you know, like once you've been there a while and you've kind of learned the offenders and the inmates offenders, the state of Missouri calls them offenders right now, I believe. But once you've learned their behavior and you've kind of learned the facility a little more, then you can like flex and you can have your own style. But the biggest thing is to go in and like, no, we're going to follow the rules because it's easier to do that than to go in and be like, I'm a cool officer. Because then when you do try to enforce the rules, they're going to be like, what the hell? Like, you haven't done this this whole time. Like, why are you trying to tell us what to do now?

I think that's the biggest piece of advice that helps. And we usually tell all of our new staff that. And I was told that when I came in. And it seemed to work for me. Now, you currently work in Missouri. Yeah. Did I pronounce Missouri, right? Or is it?

I don't know. I'm not a native to Missouri, but my husband is, and he says Missouri. I hear people say Missouri, but I've never heard that in my life. I think that's like a, they're like, up there in Missouri. I think they try to like make fun of it. But I don't actually know people from Missouri that say it like that. So where did you grow up? I grew up in northeast Louisiana.

I say that because you wouldn't know the town. Middle of nowhere. I had the same like 18 kids in my class from like kindergarten to 10th grade. And then in 10th grade I moved to. Katie outside of Houston. I don't know if you've heard of Katie, but then I graduated high school with like 900 kids in my class, in one class. And what did your parents do for work? Oh, my parents are both felons. Wait, really? Yeah. Yeah. What a plot twist. Yeah, I was waiting to drop that. I wasn't expecting for that one. I just forgot, actually. So what did they do to go to prison if they went to

prison? I believe, yeah, my mom might have just gone to jail a bunch of times. I believe my dad went to prison. I believe and I think it's both manufacturing and distributing so drugs. Do you have a relationship with them? No, not really. It's not a sad boo-hoo story though. Like my dad I didn't really ever have a relationship with and he passed away a few years ago. I'm sorry to hear that. It's all right. It happens. It was weird because I didn't have a relationship with him so I was like, yeah, this is sad, but I don't really know why. So it was a weird time. And then my mom, she is still, living. I don't always know where. Still somewhere in Northeast Louisiana. She went to rehab a bunch of times. Like, I remember one time my granny, my mom's mom told us that my mom had gone. It's the age

old story that she had gone to get groceries. She didn't say milk, but she said groceries. And I remember I kept asking her like, when is mom coming back to get or from the groceries? I was I was too little to realize, like, you don't get groceries for three fucking days, you know. But finally, my granny was like, your mom is not getting groceries. She's in jail. I remember being like, oh, okay, all right, which in hindsight, she was going through it. Like, that's her daughter in jail. And then she's dealing with me and my brother who were shitheads.

But so they, you know, they've picked her up from jail and she's been through rehab a bunch. And I think that she's clean now, but we just don't have a great relationship because of the way. things went when I was growing up. Like, she married a guy and she was sober for a few years. And then they got divorced and she went back to, you know, she quit working. And she went back to, like, not being a present mother. So we just have a – and now that I have a son too, I almost harbor, like, more resentment because I'm like, that was messed up what you did, you know?

I felt like that as a kid. But then, like, when you have your own child and you're like, I would never do that to my – not to sound judgy, but, like, that's how it was for me. I was like, dang, I feel like she did us dirty. Yeah, I'm sure it taught you how to be a parent in a lot of ways, too. Yeah, I mean, taught me what not to do for sure. Which is a lesson. Which is a lesson.

So I had an interesting, like, upbringing because of that because we were back and forth between, like, my grandparents and I spent some time with my eldest sister. She's 14 years older than me, so she kind of had, she was an adult when some of this stuff was happening. And we lived in a bunch of different places. Like, it was an interesting upbringing. but I think that helps me with my job too. Not like I fucking learned all the ins and outs of drugs when I was a kid, but like I had seen things that I probably wasn't supposed to see, and I had been around like people who were tweaking or people who were using.

So when I started, it was easier for me to like tell if an inmate was high because I was like, seen that before, you know. So I think it helped me. And then, oh, I'm sorry. You're trying to break the gear now. Which way does it go? This way? Yeah, you're good.

Sorry. It's okay. Everyone does it. Oh, good, good. Not just good. No, no, no. But yeah, it helped have perspective too because, or helped me have perspective too because I was like, this could just be my mom, you know, or my dad.

Like, these people, I'm sure that, a lot of them have kids. Like, I don't know. It, I think it gives me a unique perspective for sure. I'm not one of the people that, even though I'm kind of a chicken shit and don't break the rules very often. It gives me, like, it made me realize, like, I don't want to be there. but also like these people are one successful rehab trip away from being out of here or you know like I don't know I feel like you remember where you came from yeah yeah and your roots and that's something

that keeps me going just like remembering what I went through yeah and you're grounded in it you know I don't want to go back yeah but um that's interesting where you came from because a lot of the individuals that have come from the same path don't and go down the path that you've chosen yeah a lot of them end up in prison because they have one parent or both in your case that were a negative influence. Yeah. I don't want to let it's not to like be a bashing session on my parents or anything, but I remember one time my, and I could be remembering it foggy because I was a child, but I remember one time my brother and I were in the back seat of a car. My mom was driving. I don't know why we were trying to get away from cops, but we were trying to get away from

cops and I think my mom thought if she crossed the because we live very close to the Arkansas state line and I think she thought if she crossed the state line like they wouldn't get her or something I don't know but I remember being pulled over and I remember me and my brother in the backseat of the vehicle just like what's going on because like the lights are out there my mom's out of the car and I remember hearing her be like don't take me to jail like I have my kids please and at the time I was like, yeah, don't take her to jail. Like, we're in the car. You know, like at the time, I was like,

those cops would be such jerks if they did that. And in hindsight, I'm like, maybe she shouldn't have been fucking doing what she was doing with us in the car. So that gave me a perspective. They ended up letting her go. So the sob story worked. I feel like a lot of people use their kids.

Like, you see people that should not be having kids around them, have kids around them, and they probably get a lot of leeway. when it comes down to that, which if you're a good law enforcement officer, you'll make sure that that's not the case, but it does happen. Yeah, or at least like maybe to a welfare check or something, because, like, you know she was trying to get away from you guys. I wonder what she was doing.

I don't know exactly what it was. I don't know if somebody made a call or what, but I remember her being like, I'm with my kids. And now looking back, I'm like, you sneaky bitch. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airway sale is on now. fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just 748 or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with round trip fairs starting from 839.

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I went to college to become a teacher. Okay. Which is hilarious now, like the type of person I am now. Are you glad you didn't become a teacher? I'm so glad I didn't become a teacher. That's how I got started, actually. I went to college at Sam Houston State University in Huntsville, Texas, and that's where the headquarters are for TDCJ, Texas Department of Criminal Justice.

And they had a program where, like, you could work two days a week, I think, and make a pretty decent in the prison and make a pretty decent check for a college kid anyway and so I was like well maybe I'll do that and so I went through this like accelerated academy because the academy then I think was maybe six weeks and they did it all like 12 hour days every single day of the week to make it three weeks and then the more I started working in the prison the more I was like weirdly like interested in the job I was like weirdly happy with the job, I liked it. And the more I was taking, like, early childhood development education classes,

I was like, I don't want to teach kids. Like, no problem with kids. Like, I have a son, but, like, at the time I didn't. And I was like, I don't want to be a teacher, I don't think. So I'm glad I changed my career path. I've been very happy with my career for the most part. What do you think it was that got that interest peaked in you? I don't know.

Because that's not for everyone. Like, I know. I would say 90% of people can't do that. which is why they have such a hard time of hiring. Mental illness. I don't know. I really don't. Says every girl in America.

No, I really, if you think about it, that something's, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, some, I think that I, like, like, like, I, like, I, like, I, like, there's so many different things you can do within, like, like, more than just being an officer. you can be an instructor, you know, you can teach people coming through the academy or you can teach like firearms or you can teach defensive tactics. You can, you can join cert, like emergency response team. Like there's just so much stuff you can do. I don't know. And I've always liked things like that, which part of why I like joined the military, but I went to Air Force, so we don't do anything like that. But I was interested. Did you know that that was going to be your career when you had that interest or you were still just testing the waters? Yeah, I was still just like, it's a check, and it's getting me through school.

And then when I left school, I dropped out of college. So I never graduated? No, not with a four-year. No, I dropped out of college, and then I went full-time there. And I remember, especially on those hot days, because I was still in Texas at this point. I remember I would, like, get home and be like, why am I doing this job? Like, why? And then I ended up joining the Air Force, so I took sort of like a break.

I was still employed, but I joined the Air Force. Air Force and when I was at my first school, like to learn my job in the Air Force, I remember being like, man, I'm kind of like ready to go back to my civilian job. And then I remember being like, that's weird. Why do you want to do that? I don't really know what it was that drew me to it. I guess I don't know. There's a lot of interesting things that happened. I don't know. So why the Air Force out of all the branches? My brother was in the Air Force. Mostly. That's why. And now the school that I'm at right now is at an Army Post. And I'm the only Air Force person in my class. The rest are all Army. And I've never appreciated my branch more. Because they always make, you know, they say like chair force, you know.

Like they make fun of us for not being like the tough ones. And like we're not. And I'm cool with that. Like I've made peace with my decision because like I really think that our living, like our, what's the? Our quality of life, I feel like is better. So originally it's because my brother. And now I just reenlisted for two more years. So I'll be at eight years.

years by the time I'm done with this enlistment and now I'm happier than ever that I didn't join another branch because I don't think that's for me sleeping outside and stuff. Have you gone overseas at all? Not for like a, not like combat zone. I mean, I've gone overseas before, but nothing like crazy or cool. And what is your role with the Air Force? I actually, the reason I'm at Maryland is because I'm changing my job. I'm cross-training, but for the first five years, I was in logistics.

Very boring. very boring like moving stuff places moving people places that's like on the computer on the not physically not physically I'm in the air force but then I'm cross-training actually into public affairs so we're learning a lot about the job is supposed to be like you're a military communicator like mass communications like articles writing articles and publishing things so we're learning a lot of like camera work like photography and videography and audio and stuff actually and then we're learning how to write, like, journalism, not like investigative journalism, just if something happens, like, we're supposed to put it out there.

Just basically mass communicators for the military. So I found that to be way more interesting than logistics. And are you guys fully trained with weapons and go through that same basic training? Yeah, we do all that. You have to do that for any branch. But, like, the Army, I think they have to, like, go sleep in the, like, dirt sometimes. And I haven't had to like see. You're really shitting on them over there.

I'm not trying. No, I love my army classmates, my army friends. I'm just like, I'm so sorry for you guys. Like I know now why they make fun of us in the Air Force because they like right now. The school that they're in, they're all living in barracks for this entire school. And I am living in the hotel on base. Oh, they have a hotel. Mm-hmm.

Oh, wow. That the Air Force people stay in. Oh, no. Curious, because I haven't gotten to ask this question, how similar is, because you've experienced both sides is your PX is what they call it, right? Yeah, yeah. To prison commissary, if there's anything that's similar. Oh, no, nothing.

Nothing similar? No, no. We call them BXs because it's a base for the Air Force, but it's a post for the Army. It's stupid. But same thing. No, they're like little shopping malls. They're like nice. Commissary is just like there's four things.

Which four things do you want? You know, like in Missouri, I don't feel like they don't go in and get a, door. It's like they get a list that they can, they actually call it canteen. Yeah, I think that's more of a state thing, canteen. Yeah. Because I noticed some guys that have been through the system a lot. When I was in prison, they would call it canteen and it was a lot of like the southern guys. Yeah. That would come and say, you go in a canteen. I'm like, what is canteen. A water bottle is what I think of. Exactly. Yeah. A canteen. Like one of those army ones. Yeah. Like a flask. What's funny is like our base exchange is like a little

shopping mall, but our grocery store on base is called a commissary. So it's like, oh, I'm going to go to the commissary and get groceries. But it's not the same as like prison. Like, it's not. Didn't the word commissary derive from the military? Maybe, probably. Because I don't think it came from prison. I feel like it came from the military.

I think a lot of prison entities try to do like a paramilitary thing as far as like the rank structure and whatnot, even though it's not the same. I think they tried to do that, so maybe. I know that when I went through the academy in Texas, they kept saying, like, this is paramilitary. And if you've been in the military, you're like, no, it's not. It's similar, I guess, which does fit, but it's not like the military, I wouldn't say. Now, give us a comparison between military training versus becoming a correctional officer training.

The military prepares you. The military prepares you a lot better than. training academy for prison. But to play devil's advocate there, I don't think that you can learn in a book what prison's going to be like. So, like, I think they can teach you all the skills and they can tell you the stories and, like, tell you what's going to happen and tell you the best practices. But I think until you're there, you don't know, like, what you're going to do or how

you're going to handle it. So I think you're not quite as equipped as you should be when you start working in the prison, but I also think that it's kind of like a school of hard knocks thing. You kind of just have to learn and then try to apply those practices once you figured it out because it's a lot different doing it in a classroom with instructors and other staff than being in a prison and like trying to do it with inmates around because like the ratio to staff like staff and inmate ratio, it's usually like one staff member to like 100 inmates. There's not nearly as many of us as there are inmates. So the military prepares you better, I would say.

And what's something you wish that they would implement, if there is anything that they can implement to kind of, you know, help that? Recently they've started doing like job shadowing before you ever go to the training academy. And it's like they come in and civilian clothes, obviously they have to be like covered up. Not like head to toe, but like nothing inappropriate. And they basically just shadow like a staff member. They're escorted at all times. Multiple staff members are walking with them. but they actually get to step foot in the prison and see the facility and be around inmates.

They don't interact with the inmates because they're not trained. But that's weeded out some of the people that go through the whole hiring process and go through the training academy and then they step foot and they're like, no. Yeah, do you see a big drop off after those like tours? I wouldn't say big, but it's helped a little bit, I think. They just started doing that. They didn't do that when I got hired. They just started doing that.

Sorry. They just started doing that recently. And you do see, like, you see some job shadowers come in. And then, I mean, you have some. They're like, no, I'm going to crush it at this. I'm going to do so good. And then they come out of the academy. And of course, they know everything because they just got out of the academy.

And then they come in and they're like, oh, shit. Maybe I don't know everything because the academy's different than being in the prison. You just don't know until you're there. And you don't know what you're going to do. They always preach, like, the fight or flight thing. Because, like, in a classroom, you might do what you're supposed to, or, but in a situation, it's, you just never know. Even being there as long as I've been, things have happened that I'm like, okay, I'm like, didn't expect that to happen or wasn't really sure how to handle that one. Yeah.

Because it's just different. Did you have a hard time adjusting to your, um, your new job as a brand new correctional officer because of your age? Yeah. Um, yeah. and because I was a girl, am a girl. Oh, you were a girl, okay. So you're a man now? It's 2024, you don't know.

No. No, because I started as a, I was almost 20. I was a 19-year-old girl. And I think they could see that I was a 19-year-old girl. So, like, my, like, tactic, I guess was to just, like, not say much other than what I had to say. Because I feel like a big thing that people mess up on is, like, you talk too much and people know you don't know as much as you. think. So I was like, just be quiet. They don't need to know. Like that applies to prisoners too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You never want to reveal. That was something I made a mistake of kind of revealing my

personality too quickly. So that got me into trouble. But had you stayed quiet, you know, they don't know. And they're not going to try you if they don't know. Yeah, because they're not like, they're not sure. Like, are you crazy? What do you, you know? And they don't know if you're new always because you could be from another prison. Like an in an inmate or a staff member, like they, what other prison you ever worked at before and I just wouldn't answer their questions. Mostly because I was internally like, I have to quit this job. This is scary. Like, I was scared.

But also because I was like, you don't need to know that about me, you know. And I think it helped a lot because I came through the academy with people that they would come in there and answer all their questions and they would reveal that maybe they were brand new and maybe they could be, you know, bamboozled. Yeah. So you started in corrections at 19. How long did it take you to reach the level of captain that you're at now? Well, I'm 28.

And I made captain when I was 27. 27. Is that normal, a normal time frame? I was 26, actually, when I made captain. I do think that, I don't want to sound like I'm gloating. I do think that I've promoted relatively quickly. But a lot of that has to do, I'm not going toot my own horn. A lot of that has to do with, like, COVID, which sounds weird.

But, like, during COVID, we had such a staff shortage that, like, if you were dedicated and you were there, than you could shine because they were like, we have six people and that one's working really hard. You know, it was just easier for you to shine. And then we had a huge deficit in staff. Like we lost a lot of staff. And so the competition wasn't quite as stiff as it used to be. Like it used to be that a captain's bot only opened up every few years.

So the opportunity to advance was there for me when I don't think it was like 10 years ago. Like people didn't, people, like, like stayed and retired and nowadays like people don't stay at jobs very long and they jump around and then like COVID happened and a lot of people quit because they were afraid or whatever they didn't want to work because it was it was a trying time working in prison during COVID but yeah I can imagine even as an inmate too those that were inmates both perspectives it was extremely difficult yeah and it uh like for them I don't know if you shared this experience but like they

and us too like staff like we like a schedule like we like to know what's going on for the most part. Obviously, sometimes it can get redundant. But then like when things are shaken up and nobody knows what's going on, it can get very frustrating for everybody. And then like tensions get high and then you get people trying to fight. And it's just, it wasn't a good time. But I do think that's why I was able to excel. Obviously, I feel like I'm good at my job. But I don't think that I'm like a superhero. And that's why I promoted so fast. I think that I just like saw the opportunities and was like, I'm going to try to take that. So I think I've promoted relatively quickly. Was it difficult for your peers and colleagues to see you move up quickly? And then maybe some of them were even the ones that were training you when you got on the job. Yeah, yeah, actually, one of the captains who worked with me a lot when I first started, I actually have his radio number now. So, like, we have our radio numbers for what we are. And he retired and I took his spot. So that's really cool. He might not think it's cool. No, no, he does. But then there's also like the, which it doesn't really happen to men, but there's the like,

how did she get that job? Because I'm a woman and there aren't that many of us. There's one other female captain in the facility that I work at. It's just she and I. And she's been doing it a lot longer than I have. I have a ton of respect for her. She's way cooler than I'll ever be. But she got the same sort of reputation. Like when she started doing well, it was like, what favors is she doing to who like we don't always get credit like a man would and I'm not trying to like be a man hater here because you know I'm not that type of person but like we we get labeled with things that men wouldn't as far as promoting like they think that we didn't earn it sometimes it's just like working in prison it's like it's a man's world sometimes you know yeah why do you think that is why do

you think there's that stigma I don't I feel like it just traditionally is used to be a man's job You know what I mean? Like, there were women's jobs and there were men's jobs sometimes in some places. And I think maybe that's why. And there's just a lot more men that work there. And which I'm grateful for because, like, they've saved my ass a few times, you know. But I also think that's part of it too is like, I'm not, I know, I'm scrappy, but I know that I'm not going to like square up with this big dude that's angry and like whoop him. Like he's probably going to tear me up if I really tried it.

So I think that's another thing, too, just like stature and physical and men are biologically, usually bigger and stronger than women. So maybe that's part of it. But you don't have to be like a big and strong, tough person to work in a prison. And you have to be mentally tough, I would say. But you don't have to be like, I'm a big strong guy, you know? So I think that's part of it, too. There's a misconception there.

So what's the chain of command? Where do you rank compared to like the warden all the way from down the bottom of the level? So there's, it starts at correctional officer. It's different in Texas and I don't remember it in Texas. But in Missouri it starts at correctional officer and then sergeant and then lieutenant and then captain. And then you have one chief of custody. And then that's the custody side. You have like case managers and functional unit managers and stuff on the non-custody side.

But then so above captain is the chief of custody. There are multiple captains less than there are COs. But then above the chief of custody are the wardens. deputies and then a head warden, if that makes sense. Yeah, there's like different department wardens to. Yeah, basically. They're assigned different roles. Yeah, like you have a deputy who's over offender management and you have a deputy who's

over personnel, kind of like the non-custody side of things. And then the offender management is not just custody, but anything else that deals with, kind of anything else that deals with the offenders, not everything because you have classification too. But I have one more rank left. before I would be eligible for like a deputy warden position. I would have to be Chief of Questi first, though. Are you interested in becoming a warden?

I don't know. I always said yes. But then I had a child and everything changes when you have a kid. And that sounds so cliche. It sounds so cliche and I know it does. But like everything about me changed when I had my son to the point where I almost was like, I'm going to quit my job and stay home and take care of him. So I just don't know if I'm not going to say I wouldn't but it's not the top priority for me anymore.

Like I might if the, again, if the opportunities are there and I'm able to excel without taking away from my life with him, then maybe. But it's not like in my sights anymore like it was. Not that I wouldn't just things shift when you have a family. Yeah. Do you and your husband ever talk about like the concerns of having kind of a semi-dangerous, if not fully, dangerous job and having kids. Yeah. So we just have our one son, and we're probably only going to have our one son.

He's great. I love him, but I think one is enough. But I was actually pregnant while still working in the prison. Like during my pregnancy, I went. I would work in the prison. But fortunately, being a captain, like, it's a little, not always, but it's a little more hands-off in the, like, dealing with the offenders. Like, I'm more, like, I supervise supervisors, you know, so, like, it's a lot more

administrative stuff and like if I needed something I could have a lieutenant reach out to a sergeant reach out to a correctional officer so I was able to kind of you know I would still make my rounds and do my security checks but I was able to stay safer but yes my husband would call me multiple times during the shift like I would always get a radio call that I had an outside line and it was always my husband like okay how you feeling you're doing all right you're staying away from everything right you know like trying to make sure I was safe uh and since then like he doesn't want me to be on the, on cert,

like the emergency response team because before I got pregnant, I was pretty badly, like, assaulted on a cert team call out. You got to tell us that story. Yeah, that's where the nickname came from.

But, yeah, he's told me, like, I don't really want you, he's not the type of guy that's like, I don't want you doing that.

Like, he's, I wouldn't have married him if he was, but he's just like, is it worth you being in danger and possibly not being able to be there for our son

for you to go be a part of that, you know? So we've had those conversations. And then you also have to wait, but that is your passion and that's your career. And that could be hard when you're, you know, someone that's, anyone that's in a marriage and also having kids, like, kind of to leave that, you know? Yeah, because it's like, I'm not just my son's mom. Like, I don't, I think that happens a lot to people that, like, they lose their, who they were when they become parents because that is your sole focus. Like, everything I do now is with my son in mind. and I was just by myself before.

I was with my husband before, but like, we were just single people living our lives, you know. So that's a huge shift. And I did tell my husband, I was like, I don't want to, like, just become my son's mom. Like, I want to still have the things that I'm passionate about and the things that make me happy, I guess, which happens to be my job in prison. You could probably retire very young, right? Because in another 10 years, you would be at 20? No, retire. It's not the feds.

It's not so high. How long do you have to put in to retire? I think the retirement you're going to throw up when you hear. No, I think the retirement system right now is 90 and out. 90 years? Your retirement, like your years of service and your age has to equal 90. Oh, so. Before you can retire.

So what does that? I want to do the math. So I'm 28 and I've been. 10 years? Working, yeah, roughly. So that's 38 in. So you're almost halfway? Yeah, exactly.

Exactly. All right. But, all right, if you're almost half in, another 10 years puts you at 20. So that adds up to 20 years about. Because in 10 more years, you'll be 38 and then it'll be 20. Oh, wait, you're not even close. I'm not even close. That's fucked.

It's super fucked. I was waiting for you to get there. Yeah, it used to be 80 and out, which everybody raved about. And I remember being like, that's still not fun. So when you're 40 in 12 years, that 40 and then you'd be in for 12, 20. That's only 52. Wow, that's still not even enough. Yeah. It's crazy, which is why I'm staying in the Air Force as well, because I can get my military retirement earlier than I can get my state retirement. And then do you think when you retire from the military, you'll retire from corrections? Maybe, maybe, probably. Have you thought about going federal at all? I used to, but I don't want to start from the bottom and it doesn't like transfer. Like I don't want to go. They might consider it. I don't know, maybe. If they're short enough on staff, anything could happen.

Which they are. Yeah. But when I looked into it, this was years ago when I looked into it, I would have had to start over. And I was, I didn't want to start over. So I've thought about it because the retirement system does suck. But it's changed since I started. That's awful. It's so bad.

If you're a politician listening to this, you need to do something about this. It's really bad. The retirement, like people used to work for the state for the benefits. And now the retirement is like, yeah, you can work for us. forever. Even as a cop, it's the same way? I'm not sure. I don't want to say yes. Are you unionized or? No. Oh, so there's no union. That's interesting. It's really. I don't think that's common for like a correctional. No, there's like a correctional like peace officers, but it's not like I don't work for a union.

Like I'm not unionized. Like, that's why. You don't have like a union rap or anything. No, I don't think so. Wow. Yeah, it's, it's not great like it used to be. Even like the health care isn't as nice as it used to be like. Going back to what we were saying earlier, I think that's why there's opportunity to promote because all the people who retired under the better system left and everybody applying now is like, screw that. Like, I don't want to work there for those benefits and for the risk. So I think that's... Do you go off your health care based in the military? Yeah, I use my, I use TRICARE because it's way better. And that year's set for life with that?

Pretty much. I mean, like, if I were to get out, I wouldn't have TRICARE, but I could get coverage with the VA, which is kind of wish. she wants me sometimes, but it's still better than the state. And then you have benefits for housing and then whatnot to purchase a first time home buyer and all of that. Yeah, yeah. And my husband does too, him being a veteran. Like, he's using his GI bill right now to go through his apprenticeship. It's like he's working and using it to pay for his school. So that helps a lot. And then I can give, I haven't used my GI bill. I've used tuition assistance, but I can give my GI Bill to my son if I want to. Like, if he wants to go to college, I can let him have it. Do you think you'll ever go back

to college? If I do, I'll use tuition assistance. So it's just a different pool of money that you can use without having to touch the GI Bill. Yeah, I love hearing the stories of the people that were successful without college. I think it's so cool. Yeah, and I don't, because, again, like, I feel like I've sounded like I'm repeating myself, but I don't think that I would have been more successful at this job had I gotten a criminal justice degree. Because again, like, you're not going to know prison until you've been in there. you can't learn it in a book, you know. So it's one of those things where, like, you have to kind of see it to know. Exactly.

Yeah. Now, I know you were briefly telling us some of your duties, but walk us through and the audience through what a day-to-day looks like, like what time you get in and what time you leave and everything in between. So if I'm on time. I'm really bad for coming in, like, right on time. But no, so my shift is from 6 to 2, which isn't that bad, 6 a.m. to 2 p.m. Every day.

Yeah. It takes a while to get there. Like usually you start on evening or overnight shift. And then usually we try to get there because shift change for the officers and everybody is at seven. So we get there an hour early to kind of like set up our daily rosters and make sure that we have all of our people because you'll get like officers calling in at the last minute and you have to like staff your shift. So you're kind of we do our rosters monthly, but it changes day by day because. like you could have the night before an emergency medical outcount. So you lost two officers that are at the hospital now that you thought you were going to have.

So then you're like scrambling to find coverage and you set up your rosters. And then once you get everything, that's probably the hardest part of my day. It's like making sure because like as the shift supervisor, the shift commander, whatever you want to call it, we feel very much like everybody's safety is like in our hands because we're the ones responsible for like staffing the shift. Because, like, I work Saturdays and, like, wardens aren't there Saturdays. Like, on weekends or holidays or after hours, the lieutenants and the captains are the highest-ranking people there. So, like, when shit hits the fan, it's on us to figure it out. So staffing the shift adequately is the most important thing that we do.

And then you go down to roll call, and it's like we sit at a desk and everybody comes in and we give them their assignment for the day. And then after that, it's just a lot of, like, for like maybe an hour, if that, like bookkeeping. like keeping track of time and making sure everybody's hours are right and approving overtime slips. There's a lot of overtime in prison. And then after that, we just, again, it just depends on the day. Help our lieutenants with whatever they might need help with, help our sergeants, try to, like, mentor and, you know, walk around and make, like, do security checks and stuff like that. It's on the officer to do it, but we're supposed to oversee it all. And, of course, like, if anything's happening, like, we have to manage that, like, if they're,

There's something, a fight going on. We're the ones that have to do the use of force paperwork. If there's something happening in segregation, we have to, like behavioral problem or whatever. Like sometimes you have guys in there that are on suicide watch and like there are certain checks we have to do. So it just depends on what's happening at the institution at the time. Like in the summertime, we have some of our offenders go to work at the Missouri State Fair, like grounds, which people, I don't feel like they know that. They might not buy their tickets. But they go and like they keep the grounds and like help set up for that.

And so we have a crew always going out. So we're a lot shorter on staff during that time too because I guess it's cheaper labor. I don't know. But the guys like it. Like they like being able to leave the prison because they leave. You know, they're not in shackles or anything out there working. They're just being supervised by staff. So it just, it depends on the day.

But that's roughly how it goes. Do you respond to when an inmate requests to speak to a captain? Because I know in the feds it's so common whenever there was an issue, I want to see a captain and they would have to respond. No. But it depends. I want to say no because I do feel like inmates try to use that as a way to undermine whoever they're talking to. So if it's going to be a safety or a security issue, if somebody's going to get hurt or if it's something that like my staff can't. handle, yeah, I'll go and speak with them. Like, if it seems like it's going to be a crisis sort of

situation, yeah, I will. And there are certain things, like, when we have offenders in segregation, we have to go and speak with them. But a lot of times, like, and I remember it happening to me, too, like, when I was a CO and a sergeant, I would tell an inmate something they didn't want to hear, and they would be like, you can't do that. I need to speak to the captain. And I remember even as a sergeant being like, you're not going to talk to the captain. Like, I'm not going to tell them. But like I would just tell the inmate, I would be like, no, you're not. And then I would just have them do what I needed them to do. And then I would go tell the captain, I'd be like, hey, by the way, there's an inmate that said they wanted to talk to you. And usually the captain would be like,

did you handle it? And I'd be like, yeah. And they're like, okay, then I don't need to talk to them. You know, so it just depends. Like, if it's something that they need me for, yeah, if it's just them trying to undermine my staff, no, because I don't want them to have that. Like, I don't want them to be able to disregard what my staff told them to do because you're taking power away from your staff. How many people are under your command? On a daily basis, so I have a lieutenant and there's another lieutenant on shift. There's two captains, so two lieutenants.

I don't know the exact number of sergeants. And then I would say anywhere from like 30 to 40 people a day at one time, depending on who's there. Technically, all the officers are assigned to somebody. but like I said, if I'm the highest ranking person, even if I'm not, like, I'm responsible for everyone out on the yard or out like doing custody. The chief of custody, they don't, they deal with more administrative stuff. They don't make the rosters and like check on the things. Like it's all for us to do and we basically just give him the reports and stuff. Not to say he doesn't work hard.

Like he's my direct supervisor and he's been doing it for like 25 years or something. Have a lot of respect for him. But he's just more on the administrative side of the thing. things now. So basically everybody who's there. Anything that is custody related and it's prison, so mostly everything. What have been some of the weirdest and strangest things you've witnessed? Oh, man. Either indirectly or directly. You've been there. No. I don't know. I tell people all the time, like what normal people would think is weird isn't really always weird for prison. Like drugs in prison. People are like, how do they get drugs in there? And I'm like, I'm like,

like there's always drugs in prison unfortunately and there's various ways for them to get it in there but um i don't know uh i'm not sure like what weird wise like um there's been some like hard like some hard things that we've that we've been through like you know like doing CPR on somebody who you're pretty sure is already gone but we have to so like you're hearing like they're stiff already and you're hearing like cracking but you have to do CPR until the ambulance gets there so the first time I ever saw that I remember going home and being like oof like that was rough um and then just like stuff that like normal people again like normal people would be like that's crazy but it's just prison stuff um did you have to strip out male inmates or so you're you don't

have to do that no never but that's I was actually just about to say like guys just flash in their junk to you sometimes. That's a real thing, right? All the time. Yeah, like, specifically in SEG units or, like, playing in their own feces, like, if... They played in their own feces. Yeah, like, drawing shit on the walls, no pun intended, but, like, taking their...

There's this one guy that would take his shit, and he would smear it on the walls. That's a common thing. Like, drawing on the walls with their shit? That's a normal thing. Who cleans that up? Other inmates. other like there are porters that are designated clean but usually it's because of a mental health

situation and we're doing the best we can but they probably should be in a mental health facility maybe but like this one guy he like he uh you can smell it you can smell the shit when you when they're drawing on the walls with it so i had to go talk to him and i was a lieutenant at the time and he opened his food port he was able to like open it on his own and he opened it and he like reached his arm out when I walked up and I was like put your arm back in because like I don't want you to grab me or anything and he like puts his hands and he's got both of his hands on like the the flap and his nails are just caked with his ducky and it was so gross and he was he was having a he had stopped taking his meds and I had interacted with this guy before when he was on his meds and on

the yard and he was relatively like normal um he was like miss Kagle can I tell you something and I was like what man and he was trying to get him put his arm back in because you're not supposed to be able to open it themselves because they could try to reach for a staff member or something when they walk by or hurt themselves you know and he was like can I tell you something and I was like what and he was like I know where the drugs are in this place mind you this guy was in the hole for drugs and I was like okay where are they and he was like I think just completely I think that anybody who does drugs should should die because they did drugs and I was like okay and he was like except my mom. She does cocaine and she's an angel. I love her. And I was like, okay, you know, and I'm just

trying to talk to him and he's not in a good mental state. And like in the, in in the moment he, while we were talking, he put one hand down and he was butt-ass naked. I couldn't see him because the door I couldn't see him, but he was butt-ass naked. He put one hand down and he still had, he still had his hand on his other hand up. And then he out of nowhere, he said, do you believe in Santa Claus. And I was like, no, I don't believe in Santa Claus. And he was like, can I show you a Christmas present? And my mind was like, he's going to pull out a turd or he's going to like throw shit on me because like that's happened before too where they like throw things. And I like immediately, like I kind of lost my composure and I was like, put your hand back in your cell so I can close

this door. And he was like, I would never. And I was like, let me see both your hands. And he like put him up and I like slam the chuck hole door. And I was like, don't open. it again, man. And he was like, Miss Cayle, I would never disrespect you. And I was like, I had convinced myself he was going to show me something he pulled out of his body. And then one of my

co-workers, one of my male co-workers reviewed the cameras. And he, in fact, had, he was up there. He was up there in his own. And he I don't know, I can't say what he was going to do because he was a little loopy, but that was one of the not fun

times. Yeah, you're going to appreciate the episode coming out this Sunday. It's a former inmate who threw feces at a guard at Rikers Island. So you'll hear her perspective. Yeah. And so, so, uh, not to say that that is a behavior that I condone, but I, I know in my experience that usually staff members, not all the time, but usually staff members that are getting treated like that have some sort of an issue with the inmate, um, whether it's like the staff member was doing their job and the inmate didn't like it. But usually it's not just out of nowhere. This guy was just off his meds, literally off his meds. But I had going back, I got assaulted one time by an inmate I'd never met. We went to an institution outside of St. Louis

and usually when you, because a lot of staff members had been getting stabbed. So they call out teams from all over the state to go and basically like search the prison and just kind of like try to restore order the best that we can try to find weapons try to find drugs and try to get those things out of the facility to try to like calm things down so we went and we were just doing cell searches it wasn't like a riot control sort of situation it was just a show of like force like a show of presence like we have these people here and we're trying to search and so normally the way it goes is like you and a couple other people will walk up to a cell and you'll tell the offenders like hey, go to the back of your cell and one of you at a time come over here and we'll put restraints

on you and then we'll search your cell. And normally it goes okay. Not always, but my two sergeants at the time, they were with me and we were kind of like just around this door. And we walked up and the inmates had their heads wrapped like with their bed sheets and whatever and they had their fists wrapped. And I was like, I was like, what are they doing? And I was a fresh lieutenant at the time. and my sergeant was like, I don't know. I don't know. And so he tells the inmates, he's like, hey, go to the back of the cell. And the one guy was like, no, no, no, I'm going to fuck you up.

And I was like, is he serious? And when I looked at my sergeant, he was like, I think so. The door popped open. I think it was a mistake that the bubble officer had popped open the door before we had signaled that they were at the back of the cell. And they weren't lying. They were ready to f*** us up. They had, like, food trays that were in their cell, which they should have had.

And that's what happened originally is they hit us over the heads with the food trays. And I remember being like, what is it? Like, why is it me? Like, what did I do? You know, like, why are these guys doing this? And one of my sergeants, I saw him pull his pepper spray, and then he was inside of the cell, and he was pinned up against the wall by one of the inmates. And they were fighting back there.

and then the one that was closer to the door grabbed my sergeant by his shirt and pulled him to him after he hit us over the head he pulled him to him and he punched him in the face and like rung his bell like he fell down to his knees and I was like oh shit

like I remember being like oh shit and then because the sergeant that I was with is not like a small guy like he's a stout guy and then when he fell down to his knees the inmate started like kneeing him in the head

and we were on the second row, so I remember thinking like, that guy's going to beat my ass. Like, that guy's going to, like, fuck me up because I'm not bigger or tougher than those guys, and they're tearing them up. And so it sounds a lot cooler than it was, but it was sheer fighting for my life.

I was like, I have to do something. So I, like, jumped on his back, the inmate, and I, like, wrestled him away from my sergeant, and I was trying to wrestle him to the ground, but he got both of his, I kind of had him like almost in a headlock kind of. And that's just the only way I could grab him. And I was trying to wrestle him to the ground, but he was stronger than me. And both of his arms were free, so he kind of like rushed me, like towards the door. And I was like, he's going to throw us over the rail or something, you know?

And thank God when I came out of the door, there was another one of our, sergeants out there, she was coming to respond. And she's like 90 pounds soaking wet, but I think she does like jujitsu or something. Thank God. She's a little tiny girl, but like she's tough. And he grabbed her leg. And I remember being like, she's going to get hurt. This is all my fault.

Like it wasn't my fault. But I remember just being like, fuck, like scared, you know? And she grabbed one of his arms and I was able to go left with him instead of straight off of the damn, you know, row. and when I went left with him, he fell down, and I was like, okay, he's on the ground. And so I just, like, kept holding him there best I could because I was like, if I let him go, he's going to, like, punch me or whatever. And, like, in a stand-up fight, I'm not going to beat him up. He's probably going to beat me up, you know?

And then, thankfully, like, by that time, my sergeant who had been punched and kicked in the head, he had crawled his way out of the cell and was helping me try to get the guy's hands behind his back so we could restrain him. And we picked him up. And we took him to a different cell. And, like, we ended up cleaning up. One of the other sergeant who was pinned up against the wall ended up getting, like, seven stitches in his jaw. I don't, I didn't see any of it.

But he kind of got messed up pretty bad. And my sergeant, like, we should have all probably gone to the hospital to be assessed, but only the guy that needed stitches did. But I remember seeing him, like, bleeding and being like, damn, like, I feel like I should have helped more. I don't know. And then watching the video back, it looked like I would. was like, come here, you know, it looked like I was way tougher than I really was. It looked like I was like, I'm going to get him, you know, because we have to watch the video back, and then we have to do paperwork and stuff. And I remember the captain that was there, because it wasn't

my institution. He was like, is this you? When he was, like, pointing at the computer screen, and I was like, I don't know. Like, I'd been hitting the head, pepper spray all over me. I was like, I don't know. I'm not sure. And I, like, looked, and it looked so cool. Like, it looked like I was just like a tough bitch. But in reality, it was like, I don't want to die. Like, I don't want, I don't want to get my ass whooped. So then the sergeant who I was with was like, we went back to our institution the next day. And of course, he's like, Kagle, my maiden name, he was like, Kagle saved my life. Like, she saved my life yesterday. And I was like, I was fighting for my life, to be honest with you. Of course I wanted to help you, but I'm not

some hero. And then he was telling this story to everybody and my captain at the time. was like, dang, so you got like a lot of rage in you, huh? Like, we had just started working with each other. And I was like, I don't know, man. And of course my sergeant's like, yeah, like, she got that guy, you know? Like, she pulled him off of me. And my captain was like, I'm going to have to start calling you rage cagle, rage cage. And then, you know, everybody was just like, yeah, rage cage.

So that, like, for a few weeks, they were like, we're going to call you rage cage. And then the sergeant who actually, I pulled the inmate away from, he was like, you should get that tattooed on you somewhere and it'd be like your prison nickname and I was like I'm not I was like I'm not gonna do that unless I said I was like unless um I get it in like a really girly looking font and then it's my prison nickname because that's just a good conversation piece and he was like you won't I bet you you won't and I was like you're gonna lose that money you know like I've done dumb or shit like of course I will and then we had another call out happening or some sort of event where like you're the whole team was together. I went and did it. Like, I went to a tattoo shop and got the tattoo without anybody knowing. Because he said, he was like, I bet you $100 and I'll pay for the tattoo or something. And I was like, okay, you're out $100 and some change.

And then at the next event, I was like, look. And I like, I showed over. He was like, you did it? And I was like, yeah, it's my prison nickname. Own it all. Pay off your home. Travel for life. Drive a Ferrari.

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What? Oh, yeah, yeah. It's a good conversation piece. It's a good story to tell my... It's a part of you, you know? That's a crazy story. How did your husband react when you got home that day and told him? So we weren't married at the time.

He was still active duty and I actually had gone out to the car because they asked us all to take a step away before we started our paperwork. Because we were all just like, once your adrenaline goes down, you're like, what the long just happened? And you just, so they all, they were like, go take a break. And I stepped out to the car and I was calling him. And he was like, what just, what happened? Like, is everything good? I was like, we just got into a pretty big scuffle. And he was like, a scuffle.

Like, you were involved? And I was like, yeah, we had to fight these guys. They attacked us. And he was like, they fucking, what? Why? And I was like, I don't know why. I know now why. The one guy who had had to put on the ground,

he just does it every time he's getting ready to get released he catches another charge so he doesn't get released so they got charged both of them I think they both did yeah um he doesn't want to go home is the thing like he doesn't want to get out of prison so every time he's like up for parole he catches like another charge but I didn't know that at the time we were just opportunity for him it wasn't anything personal we were just he was going to be tough and he was going to catch a charge and he was going to be a tough guy and his cellie was like either you're with him or you're with the cops. So his cello was just like, I guess we're fucking fine, you know, the cops. But yeah, my husband was like, I really wish you wouldn't fucking have this job. And obviously not in like I'm telling

you what to do sort of way, but he was just like, he doesn't. Nobody wants to hear about their wife getting beat on by some dude, you know. No, you're not on the cert team anymore. I still am. Oh, you still are. It's probably a difficult conversation at home. He doesn't love it But he respects Like we were talking about earlier He respects that like It's something that I'm passionate about

And I've spoken with like my cert commander If it's something that's going to interfere like If we don't have child care Or like if I can't go My husband has to work or something Like I can skip a call out if I need to Or I can skip a training if I need to And make up for it later on

So it was a compromise on that But I told him I was like I'm not ready to let go of that yet Like It's such a trauma bond You know But, like, those people are like my family now. Like, my kid, like, that's their uncle.

The guy that I got in the fight with, I guess, that I got assaulted with. Like, that's like my son's uncle now. Like, we're, again, like, trauma bonded, I guess. Now, you never saw what happened to you in the movies, because that happens all the time. What? Where the guys, like, wrapped their hands around in the towels and or in the shirts. Oh, no. I knew that that's what, like, I've seen it in prison before where they're, like, ready to go.

but I just, I had never, normally, like, the inmates are hyped up by then, like, you've taken something from them or they're in the hole when they feel like they shouldn't be, like, normally, I'm aware of why they're pissed off already, but we just walked up to the, like, they didn't know us from Adam, like, we didn't know them. So that's why, like, when I saw them all wrapped up and ready to go, I was like, are they for real? And then the door, I remember hearing the click. I remember, like, the loud pop when the door opens and then it was just on.

but I didn't I knew they were ready but I didn't know I didn't think they were serious I guess and they were fucking they were serious Did you follow up with the officer that popped the door open early? Yeah I think I didn't

I didn't because it might not have been a nice conversation I might have been like what the fuck you doing and I'm actually not even 100% sure like somebody right next to us could have signaled and I mean it could have been an honest mistake because there's hundreds and hundreds of us in there at one time so I wasn't really mad at them but I'm pretty sure they're

their lieutenant or captain probably talked with them about it. That's crazy. Yeah, it was a wild time. I'm sorry that happened to you. Oh, it's okay. I've been in other fights, but like not one that's just like out of nowhere. Well, you have to live up to your nickname now. Yeah, not one that I got a nickname from.

My sister, when I showed it to her, she was like, what? She was like, my God, Deanne. I was like, what are you going to tell your kids someday? And I was like, I'm going to tell them not to fuck with me is what I'm going to tell them. That's highly respectful. Tell them to watch this interview. You know? And then I was like, I was like, I was like, it's a cool story to tell. I'm just going to tell them that once upon a time I did something cool. Probably couldn't do it again, but I did, you know. Yeah, watch out hug to a girl. We got rage cage on the show.

No, I'm, it was just a wild time. Again, like, I don't think that it was like a, I'm so tough. Look what I did. It was just like a literally like fight or flight. And you're just like, I don't want to go over that railing. I don't want to get punched in the need in the head. Like, my. sergeant here just did. So, yeah, it sounds a lot cooler than it was, but I promise in the moment it was like, fuck, fuck, fuck. Like, I was just scared. There have been other fights, but normally we're like ready. Normally it's like an offender who's overdosing or something and they don't even know that they're trying to fight you.

They're just like out of their mind or they're like seizing up, you know. Or it's like an extraction team, like a five-man extraction team. I don't know if you've seen those being run before. or like if you have to move an inmate out of a cell or if you have to restrain them for their safety or something, if they're in there, like, hurting themselves and they won't submit to risk restraints. Like, you have to put a team together

so you can go in there and as safely as possible restrain them for everybody's sake. But typically they're like, yeah, come in here, you know? And then they start fighting, and then you're just fighting them. Obviously just trying to restrain them. But the last one, we fought him. like seven times in one day and he was huge and he it took all of us he was huge and I don't mean

fat and then he stripped down naked and we were like all right are you going to listen and he was like yes so we gave him the chance to listen again silly us he was not ready to listen um so we had to go back in there um and when it comes to things like that like I was still on the team even though I'm a woman um there's no like Priya involved it's like security and safety comes first Pria obviously like once once he was restrained I would step out for the sake of like he is But naked granted he took his clothes off but um Yeah, we went in on him and he had done it before like he was ready for the five man he the guy with the shield came in And this guy probably like six two six five maybe he was huge anywhere between there and the guy with the shield came in and

His just inmates like big ass fist went around the shield and punched the guy holding the shield in his helmet and shattered his helmet. And I was like, oh, not his first time. Not his first time taking on, like, an extraction team. He was rough. Did you guys have to practice getting pepper sprayed yourself to hold pepper spray? No. In Texas, we did.

But in Missouri, they don't make you, which is wild. What does it feel like? It's bad. I think I'd rather be, like, tased. Really? Have you been tased before? Not tased, but we have a, we have a, we have a gloathe. It sounds very like superhero, you're super villain, but it's like a, it doesn't go past your,

it doesn't penetrate through like your skin level, but it's like, so that we don't have to use pepper spray, because pepper spray contaminates the air and it doesn't just go away. So it's like a, it hurts. I mean, the glove hurts, especially if it's like on a sensitive area or something. But once you let go, like it's over, pepper spray is like it sticks around. Like when we got out of that fight, when I got my neck. name. I remember being like, God, like my face is killing me. And it wasn't where I got hit because I got hit kind of up here. I was like, I was like my nose is burning. Like, what is going on? And then

one of the captains that was there was like, there was about four cans of pepper spray in that cell. I just didn't realize it because of the adrenaline. Normally, if I get a whiff of pepper spray, I'm like crying and hacking. It's bad. It like. I'm going to irritate your skin probably. Yeah, but you can't breathe too. Like, especially some formulas like there are different variations of it but like some formulas it feels like there's no air so like you try to breathe and all you get is a little bit of air and like burning it just and it doesn't go away very quickly it can stay in like your clothes and stuff so like if you go home and like you take a shower after you've had pepper spray on you like you don't want to use hot water because it'll like open

your pores yeah it's it's bad I would rather have the glove what um level security is the prison you work at The one I'm at now is like minimum medium. What kind of offenders? Well, so it's kind of based on like how their behavior is in prison. So like sometimes. But like we have crimes from like we have murder and we have rape and we have theft and we have drugs. Like we have all sort of offenders. They're just, their behavior has been somewhat good enough that they're like at a less restrictive facility.

The whole thing is to not, you don't want to keep their housing restrictive because like long time periods of super, super restrictive housing hasn't been proven to show like it hasn't really reduced recidivism, you know? So like we try to keep, we try to use the least restrictive housing possible. Yeah, how do you feel about the use of the shoe, solitary, the whole? I don't know if I should say that, no, I think that it's necessary. I don't think that it should be completely done away with, but I do think that you need to, like, incentivize getting out of there. The Missouri Department of Corrections actually just started doing something similar to that. It's like if you do go to SEG, you have to complete this program. You have to take this class.

You have to be without violations. Like, they incentivize good behavior to try to keep you out of there. And, like, they'll even reward, like, if you complete it all. all these classes, you may be able to be released early from SEG or you might be able to get a phone call, an extra phone call while you're in SEG because your liberties are taken away from you when you go to SEG. But I think that it's a good thing. It's a good tool because I think that if you just completely didn't have it, then like what are the consequences of like bad behavior or like safety reasons? Like where do you put somebody who's a safety risk if you don't have segregation?

So I think it's necessary. Yeah, maybe just finding the balance because it could be overused in some areas. areas too. Yeah, no, I think it is. That's why I was saying, like, I appreciate what they're doing in Missouri now that there's an incentivized program. I don't want it to be like a, you went to SEG and so you're being rewarded, like, you know what I mean? Like, because, like, I know some offenders don't like the open housing, and so they'll do things so that they can go to SEG so that they can have privacy and stuff. And so I don't like SEG for that reason, because it's like, it's not a holiday in. You don't, you know, you can't just check in and out when you want to. Um,

But I think it's necessary, like to, I think it's, I think you need to have some sort of segregation program and then try to incentivize not going back and try to incentivize good behavior while they're there and not just, hey, you did something bad, 30 days, you know, because I don't think that really helps anybody. I really don't. What do you think is the biggest misconception about the criminal justice system and the prison system in general that the public has that you want to clear up? Just that we, one second, I've been asked this question. One of the things, and they're joking, they're joking, I think, but it's based on a stereotype. One of my classmates, he's in the Army, he's a character. Whenever he found out what I did for a living, he was like, oh, so you like beat people with sticks, you know? And I was like, no, that's not what I do.

And he was like, but have you ever hit someone who was incarcerated? And I was like, there's a story, though, you know? like there's a reason if I'm like physically involved with someone. So I think just like that we're all there to be on a power trip or like we like we don't want like these people to do better for themselves. I think that's a big one is like people think that correctional staff in general are like, yeah, we're here to keep you in prison and we're big and we're tough. And it's like no, we want you to like use your time to the best your ability to like stay safe and stay clean or if that's your thing. And like we have like, vocational programs and stuff like I think that's a big misconception is like that staff want or they don't care if offenders inmates if they fail but like I know most of the people that I work with are like please leave and please don't come back like please go be successful we want you to do well so I think I think that's a big one it's like we're not we're not just like come here inmate like you know we're we're human beings and like we want them to do well we want these offenders to do well for the most

part. Like there's so many different things. Our institution has welding and HVAC. Like you can learn those skills. You can get your education. Like we staff at the at the institutions, we push that. We're like, please do better for yourself because it does it does nothing for me for you to be here. I don't get like thrill off of seeing you do bad or seeing you like live a poor quality of life. I think that's, we want them to do well. We want them to get out and be productive members of society. Like most of them are. Like most people that go to prison are going to get out and like they're going to be your neighbors like you want you want your neighbors to be good productive members of society so i think that's a big one people think that we're all like

hateful or we look a certain way yeah i'll give me that one you had me be at stereotypes a little bit yeah yeah it's it's fair because i mean i've seen it that not not so much um it's it's not women it's more age yeah yeah is what i would say at least for me is what I stereotyped you as. Not because I'm used to female COs. Yeah. Because I was in prison and I've interviewed female COs. Yeah.

But it was more of the age thing that took me by surprise. Because even De Nita was, I think, older than you. Yeah. And she wasn't, she was only on the job for like eight months. You're 10 years in. Roughly. Almost. You've got to be one of the youngest, you know, especially for your rank.

Yeah. I think the rank gets people a lot too because they think that I've been there a lot longer than I have. But, and there are younger probably captains, I think, actually. I think there's a younger than me, Chief of Custody. So I'm not like the only one doing it, but it's definitely, like, all the captains I work with are older than me. Yeah. And something I've realized, too, is that because Missouri's in the south, right? Kind of more Midwest.

Technically, I would say Midwest. So those southern Midwest states are a lot more relaxed and chiller about interacting, like, interviews. Like I was able to go in Tennessee to a correctional facility where I interviewed the warden. That's so cool. That doesn't happen out here. Yeah. Like, I don't get invited into prisons in Connecticut and people that are active, like the closest I've gotten is I interviewed a public defender. Oh, okay. And I interview attorneys all the time, but that's not on that side. The criminal, that's the other side. Yeah. But like active people. Yeah. They don't want to talk or they're not allowed to talk or anything like that. Yeah. I would say that Missouri is, I think it's like

an attempt to be transparent that like what I was kind of saying before is like we don't want our like Department of Corrections to be seen as like a we're taking people and we're caging them and that's where they're going to live like I don't they're pretty open about like they've had people come in and film like videos inside of the institution so you can see the facilities and like you can kind of see the living conditions obviously not like a MTV Cribs style but like they've had people come in like the governor has been into some of the facilities before and they've taken photos like some of those photos I was showing you were we were inside the facility that had a team a civilian or not a civilian everybody's a civilian uh what word like an outside of the department company

like media company come in and like make recruiting videos and like photos and stuff because it's like we don't have anything to hide sort of thing exactly that's what william cope said when I went to his facility and in Arkansas when I went in yeah they're like come in you know yeah yeah I think that's awesome so if you could ever get your ward and to allow me in that would be cool Yeah, we have a new warden, actually, who I used to work with. Our last warden got demoted. Oh, interesting. Because he harassed me, actually.

Oh, you got him demoted. Not just me, but... Multiple of you people. But I think that I, like, pulled the trigger on being like, this guy stinks. Like, I think I pulled the trigger. He was harassing me about pumping at work for my son. Pumping? Oh, breast milk.

Oh. Because your son was there? No, no. No. Like, to feed him when I got home. So, like, during my shift, there's a federal law that protects women who are breastfeeding to pump at work. And he harassed me about it. And I just fucking, I had that, like, postpartum rage. I was like, I'm not taking that shit from you, man. And I ended up, like, talking to the one of the directors for the department. And he was like, hey, like, that's not cool. And, like, a whole investigation ensued. And a lot of other people came forward. And they were like, yeah, this guy's not a good guy. Good for you for sticking up for him. He got very, very demoted. I don't think they took it. Like, they didn't fire him. He's close enough to retirement. But I told my boss, I was like, this is probably the most fuck around and find out thing I've ever done.

Like, I was just, because I'm not normally like the, I'm going to tell on you, like, sort of, like, staff member. Because I know sometimes you just have to, like, grin and bear it. But I wasn't willing to for that. I felt like he was attacking my family somehow. I was like, this is my, I'm just trying to feed my kid, you know. And then it opened the door for a lot of other people. but our new warden I think is I think he's a nice guy I worked with him very briefly when I was a sergeant and I hear good things about him I think he's an advocate for staff and for inmates he seems to be all right so that's good I'll see what he says but in the good word I'll see what he's got to say yeah do they allow you to interact with like felons is that a thing like I know sometimes cops can't or have to report or anything like yeah so I'm not sure if it's like the state's the state's like if they were locked up in the state of Missouri or if it's like I'm not sure like what if I think if I interacted with someone from like Louisiana Department of Corrections I don't know but it's basically just like if you're if you're going to be an involved in an inappropriate relationship or anything like anything like anything more than just like acquaintances or something like that there's there's a there's a policy on it where you have to report it it's like a parolees and stuff like that I don't think if you're just a felon it's a thing but I think if there's because if you're on parole you're still

And like, not in custody. I don't know how to, like, you're still answering to the state of Missouri. So, or wherever. So I think that they, like, ask that you know because there might be a chance that that person ends up or in that facility or that just to make sure you didn't do anything wrong. But if you just tell them, like, normally it's not a big deal. You just do a piece of paper. Wait, I just put the two together. Missouri, Gypsy Rose was in Missouri.

Yeah, I have nothing. No, I have no tea. Was that near your prison at all or no? No, she was at Chilli Cothi, I think, and I've never worked with women. So I've never been to the female facility. My mother-in-law was incarcerated. There? At Chilacothy, but I don't know.

You probably had to report all that, right? So it was before I met my husband. Now she's on parole, and my husband doesn't, like, we don't really, she's not really a great. She's never met our son. I think I've met her one time when we were still dating, but I did tell the facility just in case, but I don't work at a women's facility, so I'm never, not going to wood, I'm never going to, like, they just don't want you to have, like, conflict of interest. Like, they don't want it to be like, I'm going to do this because that's my mother-in-law,

or, you know, like this. I know all about conflict-interest. I was in the shoe for almost five months because of conflict of interest. Why? Because I dated a guard's cousin, and he reported it. Oh, so they put you at, well, yeah. Because in the feds, their rule is you can't be on the same compound for when there's a conflict to interest and the shoe has like different shifts.

So like, because they're shoe officers for the quarter. So they put me in the shoe and then he was allowed to work the compound. So when he went to the shoe, did you get out? Like, how'd you get out? No, he didn't work the shoe. They would just, they kept him from non-shoe shifts for that quarter. So then they just moved me to another prison. Oh, okay.

That's what I was going to ask. Oh, I was waiting transit and then they lowered my level to a camp and then they shipped me out to Wisconsin. Yeah, it's kind of like that. Like, usually they'll just move them to a district. different facility within the state if it's if it's going to be an issue or yeah usually that's what it is but while they're waiting but we transfer every week once a week so typically it doesn't take that long to get them out of the facility five months in the whole oh they do diesel therapy and they screw with

you diesel therapy yeah when they move you to prison to prison like i went on con air and they moved me to oklahoma and then i went to chicago and then i went all the way in the bus to wisconsin is this a federal thing i mean they might do it in the state but state you don't really move it that much and the feds they move you all the time yeah they do move offenders a decent amount in the state like we constantly have transfers in and out but it's not you can be at a prison for years and not be moved but it's more so like if you have a declared enemy or like if there's a gang conflict like you like you can declare an enemy on a camp like if you're involved with a certain prison gang and they're involved with a different prison gang you can say like hey me and that person have an

issue like I need to be at a different camp I need protective custody whatever and like just the cards fall and then our classification team decides, like, what's the safest option for everybody? So a lot of times that gets people moved around. Or, like, hey, I got to this camp and I didn't realize this guy that I used to have problems with on the street is here. It's not going to be good if I'm here sort of thing. So I think it's for the good, for the most part. I mean, I don't, that's a waste of resources to just be moving people around. That's what the government does.

A lot of things are a waste of resources. Yeah, we, there's a big ass Uncle Sam statue somewhere. Oh, that was the stupidest thing. in town. In Danbury. Somewhere. Yeah, yeah. But I told my, because being in the Air Force, I told my best friend, I was like, I need to get a

picture with that guy. I finally met my dad. That was in front of the train station, right? Yeah. Yeah, they made, the city made this whole big deal because I guess it had to do with one of the carnivals or something like that. It's a random-ass placement in front of the, what does Uncle Sam have to do? My apartment's right there.

I could see it outside of my window. Good to know. Yeah, they put that there and it was, they made the whole, this whole, like, newspaper DeBue about how they got Uncle Sam back and they spent all this money to, it was just ridiculous. What's the reason? I have no idea. I don't even care. It's just so Danbury does some silly things and you're just like, why.

Yeah, I drove us to the wrong place three times because I wasn't looking at the right address. Like hotel-wise, I was like, well, that's a comfort in. That's not where we're going. And we were just kind of driving around Danbury. And I was like, what an interesting little town. I've never. Dan, yeah, it's small, but it's famous for a lot of, you know, crazy things. Hats? Hats. Yeah, we have the Danbury Federal Prison where, like, the celebrity women have stayed.

I was at the Danbury men's prison, too. I didn't know that. I saw the sign for it. And I told Amory, I was like, I'm back home. That's the federal one. We've had, like, the Danbury Trashers, which you got to see that documentary. Yeah, I didn't. But I should. Drake, like, posted a jersey with the Trashers thing. It was a whole big thing. Yeah. We just had, like, a lot of different things in Dambury for such a small town. That's what I was going to say. It wasn't a town I had heard from or heard about until. I was like, where am I going for this? Like, because I'm from Louisiana. I lived in Texas.

I live in Missouri now. I'm just in Maryland for temporary. Like, you know, so I was like, I'm just out here traveling around. Like I was like, let me look at this little town. And I was like, huh, there's some interesting things about, like, never heard of this town. But there's some interesting things about this town. Definitely. Yeah, it was a good time.

Well, Deanne, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a pleasure talking to you. Thanks. I'm glad we got to get you while you were in Maryland so you didn't have to come all the way from Missouri. Yeah, it would have been a hell of. of a trek to get here all the way from Missouri. So it wasn't too bad. It was like four hours. Awesome. You know, keep up

maintaining your nickname. Keep defending that and, you know, stay safe on the job. And thank you for being an awesome correctional officer. Thank you. I appreciate that. Captain. I'm just kidding. No, you did great. You killed it.