Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was A Prison Guard In Arizona’s Most Dangerous Units | Jaycee Reidhead

Episode Date: August 31, 2025

Jaycee Reidhead’s journey from a traumatic incident in high school to working inside Arizona’s most dangerous prisons is nothing short of incredible. Instead of going straight to law school, she spent seven years as a correctional officer in high-security facilities, including housing units for severely mentally ill inmates. During her time behind prison walls, she faced daily violence, chaos, and even survived being stabbed by an inmate. #PrisonStories #CorrectionsOfficer #ArizonaPrison #PrisonLife #COStories #TrueCrimePodcast #LockedInWithIanBick #RedemptionStory Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Use code LOCKEDIN for 20% OFF Wooooo Energy Buy Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 00:55 Welcome and First Impressions of New York 01:21 Childhood and Family Life 03:09 Family Struggles and Sibling Substance Abuse 04:24 Experiencing Trauma in High School 06:21 Coping Mechanisms and Academic Drive 07:36 Rethinking Law School and Next Steps 08:38 Choosing Corrections and Law Enforcement 09:16 Correctional Officer Academy: Training and Challenges 12:42 Physical Demands and Gender Dynamics at the Academy 15:14 First Impressions: Entering the Prison Environment 18:40 Early Work: Unexpected Realities in Prison 21:20 First Prison Assignments and SMI Units 26:28 Handling SMI Inmates and Unique Challenges 34:32 Rapport and Tensions in SMI Populations 41:11 Moments of Crisis: Suicidal Incidents on the Job 45:00 Heavy Toll of Suicide Watch and Mental Health 53:05 Becoming a Target: Assaults and Trauma 01:03:53 Dealing with Repeat Violence and Not Telling Family 01:15:25 Gender, Respect, and Boundaries as a Female CO 01:28:38 Prison Politics and SMI Population Dynamics 01:31:03 Personal Loss and Substance Abuse in and out of Prison 01:35:01 Compartmentalizing Trauma and Facing Challenges 01:41:15 Questioning the System and Leadership Changes 01:49:00 Looking Back: Lessons, Regrets, and Moving Forward Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Like, he's just, like, kind of walking in front. So I open the gate, and as soon as I open the gate, he turns around and he comes at me. I didn't know that he had a pencil, and he's stabbing me in the face. I thought that he was just punching me. J.C. Reedhead grew up in Arizona and a traumatic incident in high school set her on a mission to change the criminal justice system. Instead of going straight to law school, she put her plans on hold and spent seven intense years working as a correctional officer in some of Arizona's highest security prisons, including units housing severely mentally ill inmates. In those years, she faced assaults, chaos, and even survived being stabbed by an inmate.

Now, J.C. is finally pursuing her dream of becoming a lawyer using the lessons she learned behind prison walls to fuel her next chapter. J.C., welcome to Lockton. Thank you. Nice to be here. Yeah, sorry for dragging you out in the cold here. I didn't know you came from Arizona where it's 100 degrees. No, it's kind of nice, you know, not being dying of heat. Yeah, and you're spending a couple days in New York City. Yeah, yeah. We visited a few places around Manhattan, obviously the big tourist spots, but. yeah it's it's been fun is that your first time in new york city it is so it's kind of like a

shock of how actually massive it is and how many people and i wasn't expecting to be you know shoulder checking everybody but no it's been fun yeah what's like been the biggest surprise in new york city for someone that's never been i just really think the people i think you imagine how many people are there and then you actually get there and you're like wow i'm surrounded by tons of people yeah and everyone's like in their own world like everyone has a different story and a different life and is doing their different thing and has a different place to go, which is super interesting and puts it into perspective when you look at it from that angle. Yeah, and then you're looking around and you're like, people live and all these windows that

I'm looking at, and it's, it was crazy. I think probably the biggest, like, emotional impact of it was we went to the 9-11 Memorial, and that was really, you know, as someone who was like really little living through it, not obviously being near here or anything, but that was pretty, pretty good spot to see. And you saw the Lion King. The Lion King. Great play. That's my favorite Broadway play.

Yeah, it was really good. Did you grow up in Arizona? Yeah. So I wasn't born in Arizona. I was born in Utah. My family's from Utah. But we moved to Arizona when I was three or four years old and stayed there ever since. Big family?

A big extended family. I'm the oldest of five. So, you know, a big immediate family. and then my dad has seven siblings. Oh, wow. Yeah, so I have like 30-something first cousins on my dad's side. My mom's side is smaller, but that's just families in Utah. Were your siblings boys, girls, mixed?

A mix, so there's two girls, two boys, with me being the oldest. And so it was kind of a fun dynamic being the oldest one and in charge of all of them. Is there a big age gap? No, so it's me, and then two years below me is my sister, and then three years it's my brother, and then my brother and my other sister, they're 18 months apart, and then the youngest was, I think, five years after that, so. And did your parents stay together, your whole childhood? Yeah, and they're still together now, so I never had to experience anything, you know,

divorce or anything, which was good. Growing up, it was really easy, I guess. I didn't have, you know, we were middle class. my dad is a lawyer and my mom's a nurse but she stayed home for i think most of my childhood and never really had any issues went to public school and it wasn't until my high school where things kind of started to get so i'm the only one in my immediate family like of siblings that doesn't have a substance abuse issue um once i started getting a high school is when they kind of started to get it into their substance abuse issues.

And being the oldest, it was hard because, you know, you want to be the one that's looking out for them and taking charge and helping them. But you really can't because with substance abuse, it's a very personal thing that they do with. And it affects the family. But if they don't want help, then there's really nothing that you can do. So I watched them struggle with it. And then my parents, too.

So it kind of put on me that I didn't want to burden them any extra with like issues that I had. Even though they were small, like I didn't have a whole lot of issues at the time. But you see your parents struggling and you don't want to add to it at all. And especially with like the level that my siblings were struggling with, anything that I felt I was struggling with was like, oh, it's not that bad. you know so you kind of learn to put it down and compartmentalize and um in high school i think the start of i wouldn't really say my downhill because and i'll get into it but so i was sexually assaulted in high school and it kind of changed the way that i viewed like everything in the world around me at the time and i really learned where

people will take advantage of you. Like they see a weakness or they see you as a weakness and then they'll take advantage of it. So really early on I learned to not trust anybody which came in handy later in my job but at the time it was hard to reconcile that and to kind of

I don't know and get through it I guess on my own. And I didn't tell anybody. Nothing really came out of it. It was just kind of like it happened. And I was like, I don't know how to deal with this. So I'm just not going to deal with it. And that's what I did. In the way that I, you know, in my siblings, they dealt with their, they turned to substance abuse for their stressors that they had. And so I didn't want to turn to that for me. And it wasn't really my thing. Like, I mean, I smoked weed and I drank and stuff. But that wasn't. like I didn't have a problem with it you know so I turned to like studying so I went to the university of Arizona um for college and I just went all in I was like I'm gonna I want to go to law

school that's what I wanted to do and I think in part it was from that trauma I was like I'm gonna be um someone that can help victims I'm gonna be like an advocate I want to be a the person that I needed at that time. But, yeah, so I just went all in on school. Like, I made the dean's list, like, every semester. I graduated summa cum laude, which is, like, 3.8 GPA and with honors at the honors college. So I really went all in on school, and I was just like, I'm just going to dive into it and

hopefully come out of that. And it was, like, a month before graduation where I was. I was like, I can't go to law school. I was like, like I told people I was like burnt out from school and just being, you know, from kindergarten through high school and then straight to college and then straight to another three years of law school. I told people I was like, I just want to break. But I think for me really what it was was like my goals was to be an advocate.

And then I was like, well, how can I help people if I'm not really even helping myself? so I kind of doubted myself that I could even do it. So I didn't. And then, so then it was figuring out what I was going to do. I graduated. And then kind of in the months after that, just thinking about what I was going to do. Like I need a job.

I need something that's pretty stable. So I turned to corrections. Well, originally it was I'm going to, try to go into law enforcement and see what I can get out of that. Because there's a different way as being an advocate, right? I thought originally maybe I wanted to go into law, but then I was thinking, well, maybe I can go into law enforcement and try to do that. And what people were telling me as like an easy stepping stone is corrections

because the requirements are lower, the academy's shorter and it's a little bit easier. And so that's what I did. so it was 2018 when I started the academy and it's kind of funny because my parents were like, what are you doing? Like you were going to go to law school and now you're going to go into corrections. Okay. You know, they were supportive. What was their career background?

So my dad was a lawyer. So I wanted to follow him, you know, and try to do. what he did. But he does estate planning, trust administration, more transactional law than in the courtroom, like, that you would kind of think of. And my mom's a nurse. She didn't, she stayed at home for most of what I can remember, but then, like, recently she started going back. She's a school nurse now. But they didn't have any, like, military or law enforcement background. I don't think they, I know nobody in my family. When in a law enforcement, first month so it was kind of like like okay that's cool but also why um and they didn't really

peg me as somebody that could do it like I mean they knew they're like yeah you're tough yeah like you can handle yourself like you you got your shit together but at the same time I think maybe they kind of like wondered if I was really cut out for it and so I went to the me and it was I think six or seven weeks at the time that I went I think it's changed now but it was seven six or seven weeks and I really liked it I know a lot of people don't but it was kind of I mean I didn't really take it to heart like you know like they're yelling at you and they're like telling you to do push-ups and I'm just like okay like I didn't I wasn't one the one that was like getting offended by them screaming at you and I don't know it was just all kind of

part of the game and that's kind of what I saw it as I'm like they're doing this because it's like this game this mental game to try and like get in your head of like oh this is what it's going to be like and if you can handle this and maybe you can kind of handle being in prison but it's really not even the same do the men and women train together yeah would you say there was more men or more women or an equal amount um there was definitely more men but there was a lot more women than I was anticipating. It was probably, like, in a class of 30, 35, there was probably, like, eight or nine of us women. Um, so it wasn't totally even, but it was definitely more than, than I thought initially. I thought I might be like one of the only ones, but there was more of us, which was good,

actually. Were you one of the younger ones? Yeah, we were all kind of the same age. There was, like, um, there was a, few people who are older. I think the oldest guy in the class was in his 50s because they don't have like an age cap in Arizona for the state at least. So people kind of go into it as a second career. Like they'll retire from even former law enforcement or military and then they'll go into corrections. But I think the majority of us were pretty young. I was 24 when I started. So it was definitely a young, a young crowd. But No, it was pretty good.

We did a lot of stuff that they don't do now, which I find interesting. There was one part where they call it like the fight for life, where you're up against somebody that has like pads on and they spray you and then you have to like fight them and, you know, get your radio and, you know, initiate and do the whole thing and that was fun to an extent people were like kind of weird about it which might be why they don't do it anymore but I think it was a good experience and something that everybody needed to kind of go through because that's like yeah you could go through that at the job and I certainly

did but it was it was definitely an experience and when you say spray it's like pepper spray yeah the pepper spray and it's like right point blank to your face and never having done anything like that before it's definitely not something that I you can't really like imagine it until you go through it and then you expect it and it's definitely not as bad as I thought it was but it's also as bad were you into sports or anything in high school yeah so I did track and soccer and softball for a long time. So I was athletic and I also did, or I won the, I wouldn't say one, but I came in first for the women in the fitness for my academy class. They kind of did like a ranking system and I came in first, which in my opinion wasn't really that hard because it was like do 20 push-ups and then

run this mile and a half in like under 15 minutes. So it wasn't really. like difficult for me but i think a lot of the women that i remember kind of struggled with it a little bit and the men too um which you know people think of corrections is not much of a physical as much as like military or you know other police but um it definitely is and it should be um it's a very physical physically demanding job and i don't think people really anticipate it if they're coming in and especially if they lower standards for the academy like they have been i don't think it's doing them any favors but um what's something you think training lacked looking back on it now i think i thought it was lax as it was and so that's why hearing like the standards have been

lowered even more was surprising to me because i thought at the time it was really easy um and i thought that they should have been even you know more sure you know more sure strict about it because, I mean, if you think about it, like, there was this one girl that I remember. She was struggling to pass the fitness portion of it because she was struggling to do, I think it was like five or ten push-ups. And in my head, I'm thinking, I'm like, okay, well, if you're struggling to push yourself up off the ground, how can you reliably be somebody, like, how can you be somebody that I could rely on in an actual situation, you know, to help me, or to help anybody else. And I think that's another part of it why just women in general weren't

taken as seriously in the job. We're just obviously viewed as weaker. And in that situation, you're kind of proving that. So you want to be somebody that meets the standards so that people can rely on you. So that was kind of surprising to me in the academy. Otherwise, I feel like they did. did a pretty good job at preparing me. I mean, at the end of the day, nobody can really prepare you for actually being in prison. You know, like, nobody can prepare you for walking in and what you're actually going to be doing and seeing on the job. One of the things that they did pretty good that they don't do anymore as far as I know is they'll actually take you to the prison while you're still at the academy. So you're there. I was there for two days. I did like two shifts there instead of going to

the academy. So there was kind of like a rumor where wherever you went for those two days, that was going to be the unit that you would go to when you graduated. And the unit that I went to was kind of like a lower custody medical yard. It was kind of like how I would expect. It was like a dorm setting and it was kind of open. People were like walking around, you know. I didn't really say anything that crazy. So I was like, okay, I can do this. This isn't that bad. And it's funny because I had done martial arts out of college through college and kind of like out of college I did Brazilian jiu-jitsu and moitai and at the time I had competed a little bit um I got my blue belt and so I was doing fights and competitions and stuff so I was barring quite a bit and I had these

bruises and like cuts on my knuckles and I thought they were pretty healed and you know it was not noticeable but I remember standing like in the chow hall line and I was like taking names and one of the inmates comes up and he's like giving the idea or whatever and he like looks at my hands and he's like you a fighter just like immediately clocks it and I was like uh I didn't really know what to say like I hadn't thought that that would even come up so I hadn't like pre-planned a response or anything so I was just like yeah you know I fight. And in my head, I'm thinking, I'm like, well, you know, this is something that they can know about me. And I don't mind because, you know, it's a pretty good thing if they know that I

can fight. So I was just like, yeah, you know, I train. That was always my response. Like, I train. And you just like, okay. Like, you know, just like kind of like looking at you like, okay. Own it all. Pay off your home. Travel for life. Drive a Ferrari. In celebration of the World premiere of the Monopoly, Big Board Buckslot Machine by Aristocrat Gaming, Yamava Resort and Casino and San Manuel is giving one person a $1.6 million dream package. The biggest prize in Yamaba's history. Club Serrano members can earn daily instant prizes and secure a spot in the finale May 29th. Don't pass go and own it all. Only at Yamava, celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at Yamava.com must be 21-20.

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Do you think they bring you to a easy facility like that for the walkthrough just to not scare you off? Like, do they do that on purpose? Probably because looking back at like where everybody went, it was, they were all like lower custody units. I was the only one from my class that went to this specific unit though. And I don't know though because like the people that went to the other units, they ended up staying there.

But I didn't stay where I was at. I went to a higher custody. when I actually got there. Maybe they knew you were the toughest. Maybe, I don't know. But yeah, it was an interesting experience. And I never actually went back to that unit other than like transports and stuff,

but I never went back. Did you ever have second thoughts at all throughout training? Honestly, it was probably the second day where I was like, what the fuck? Am I doing here? Is this really like what I want to be doing? And at the time, I'm like, you know what, I'm just going to, I'm going to get through the academy. I'm going to get there.

And if I don't like it, I can, you know, I can quit. There's a high enough, you know, turnover rate where it wouldn't really be, you know, frowned upon so much. But I wanted to really give it a shot. I was like, I signed up for this. I'm in the academy. Like, I don't want to drop out. That's, like, one thing about me is, like, when I set my mind to do something, I really want to see it out and finish it. And so I was like, I'm going to do this. And if I don't like it,

then I don't have to continue on. But at least I can say that I tried it. Would your siblings think while you're in training? Were you living at home still, or did you move out? No, I was living on my own. I moved out when I was 18 and I didn't. I think I moved back once for a brief period of time. But they, thought I was crazy. They're like, you're going to go work in a prison? Like, what's wrong with you? Like, are you okay? And I'm like, you know, obviously deep down there was a lot of underlying traumas going on, but it was so much like I didn't, I couldn't even recognize that at the time. Because like I said, I had like stuffed it down and I'm like, I just, I need to do something.

I need to, if I just do stuff, then I won't have to think about things going on in my head. And that's kind of what school was. And then after school ended. I was like, I need a job to completely fill up all the space in my head. So they were supportive, but they were really like, why? What are you doing? But then it turned into, oh, tell me all the stories. And while you're so cool because you have all these stories, but, yeah, at the time, they were. And they were also dealing with a lot of their own stuff.

So a lot of the things that I dealt with and went through, they never really knew or understood until later. Because it was when I started going, you know, I went through the academy and I was working, and I was kind of away from my family for a lot. And that was kind of on purpose. They were dealing with a lot of their issues, and I just wanted to separate myself from the drama.

And, you know, you can try to be there as much as you can, but, you know, if people don't want help, then there's only so much that you can let them in in your headspace. So, but I graduated from the academy, and that was, that was pretty cool. And it was kind of nerve-wracking to think, like, okay, well, the academy's over. Now I have to actually go there and work. And, but it was all right because they gave us, or they told us that they were giving. us like an FTO so we wouldn't totally be alone going in there but which is a field training officer yeah field training officer so I get there at like the HR and I'm thinking I'm going to go to the

other place the place that I'd been before I already kind of knew like it was a small yard so I pretty much like knew all the buildings I'm like okay I know what I'm getting into and like I'd heard about because obviously like when they tell you like where you're going they kind of give you an overview of the units and how it's broken down um i wasn't the only one from tucson uh there were a few of us from tucson but there were a lot of people that were going to like it was for complexes all over that were in my class so um they broke it down for everybody kind of so everybody had an idea of the units and what everything was what everything looked like um But we get there and I'm thinking I'm going to go to the place where I was, which was called Manzanita.

And they're like, Reedhead, you're going to Rinkon, which was one of the higher custody units. And I was like, oh, okay. Because there were two that were the high custody. There's Simron and there's Rinkon. And you didn't want to go to either of them, allegedly, that people were said. Because they're higher custody. You know, they require a lot more of yourself to be there. You know, it's not so easy to manage the inmate population that's there.

And, but they were 12 hours. So the way that the units were split up is a lot of the other ones were eight-hour shifts, and then Raincon was the only 12-hour shift. And I wanted the 12 hours. So I was kind of happy that I got to work there because I wanted the 12-hour shifts. So you only had to do four days a week? Yeah, it was four days on, four days off, three days. on three days off. So the three to four days off were really nice working there. And it kind of made up

for being there 12 hours. And especially doing overtime, it makes it really easy to do overtime when you have more days off to do overtime. Do they give you a higher pay for working at a higher custody level? They should, but they don't. They call it, well, they call it hazard pay. And I think it's changed now, but at least when I was working there, it was like a couple bucks more on your paycheck. An hour or just in general? Just in general. For working there? For working, yeah.

I always said that there should be unit differential. It would make sense, right? Hired custody to require you to do more, really more work. But no. What were some of the stories you were hearing about? these higher custody levels while you're in training, because I'm sure people talk, like any job when you're training. Yeah.

So what I had heard from this specific unit was it was actually pretty recent. Like, within six months of me getting there, there was a murder on the rec field. And, well, actually, there was a murder on the rec field. And then there was another murder in one of the houses. and then they had like a mini riot. Like this is within six months of me getting there. So I was like, okay, I'm getting in, like, this is where I'm going. And it was actually within those six months, I think, that they had changed over to two things.

One was IHP, which is the integrated housing program where they were trying to limit race-related issues by integrating people. based on race. Originally, that had caused a lot of problems that I think had happened before I got there. But when I got there, that's what it was. They were IHP. And they have to sign into the program. So you don't have to.

But obviously, if you were a certain custody level and you didn't want to be IHP, you were going to go to Cimarron, or you were going to go to a different complex. So sometimes, it was like you do or you don't or if you don't want to go to swimerrown well you're going to sign in but a lot of people had the issues with signing because once you sign sometimes you couldn't go back to regular GP because you had signed so I mean there were a lot of issues with that but

nothing from really that I saw because like I hadn't gone there yet and then so there was that and then they had also turned half of the yard to SMI or severely mental yo. So they were kind of starting to institute this mental health program that really wasn't fully fleshed out. It was kind of like, because on the yard there was a suicide watch house and then three designated houses for SMI. One was kind of like a lower functioning and then the other two were for the higher functioning. And it was kind of like, okay, we're going to put these inmates here and kind of do some mental health programs, but also we don't really know what we're doing yet. So it was a really new thing when I started that even up to administration

staff, they really hadn't fully, it wasn't like a fully formed program yet. And so, and it even changed. Like, I think throughout my seven-ish years, It was like every six months it was changing. And so I started. And it's funny because my FTO was on annual leave for like two weeks of my training. And so, and they didn't have anybody else to put it. It was me and this other girl and they didn't have anybody else to really put us with. They're like, okay, just go help out on the yard.

And we're like, and do what? We're like, okay. And so they put us with one of the yard officers, but he wasn't an FTO. So he's like, just go to perimeters. I don't know. And so we were like, okay, what are the perimeter? What are the perimeters? And so they kind of had to guide us around.

And once you do it once, you know, it's really, like, you can do it the rest of the time. But it's like, hey, go do this. And you don't really know what you're doing. So we're like, okay, we're just going to wing it. And if we get lost, like, oh, well. Did you have to put on, like, a certain demeanor? Because you don't want to look like that fish out of water as an officer your first day on the job. We tried to.

But it just comes across anyway. Like, people can kind of see it. The inmates definitely saw it. But, and it's funny because there's such high turnover. And at the time, they were doing a lot of cross-leveling, which is where COs from other units are being sent to units that are shorter staff to work there for their shift. So there was a lot of, like, mix of people. So they didn't initially know that we were new. So when they're telling us to go do these things and we're doing them, like, we're supposed to be with our FTO, but we're doing regular, like, we're doing regular, like, work.

because we don't have enough CEO who's here. And, you know, the other CEOs that are a little bit more experienced are just telling us to go do stuff. And then, like, the other CEOs around, they don't know that we're new. So you kind of have to just wing it. And that was, like, one of the first instances that I can remember where I'm just, like, if you just look like you know what you're doing, nobody really says anything. and that came in handy and I didn't have anybody like like there was no handholding it was like you're just going to go do this which I thought was good it worked for me I know there's a lot of people probably wouldn't work for but

you know what type of inmates were housed in this facility um so they were a higher custody if they were like rated like level four um sometimes like level three it wasn't like a maximum custody. So it was like a semi open yard. So in the housing units, the doors, like there were actual doors. It wasn't like a bay setting.

It was like two to a room and there's like a door, door, door, door all the way down. And there's like a wreck field. They had to be escorted everywhere. It's supposed to. So escorted a chow and back, escorted a wreck

and back. And any that they were going, they were supposed to be an escort. And it definitely didn't turn out that way just because of short staff. So what I learned really quickly is that there's what you're supposed to do and then there's what you actually do. And it was hard because, you know, starting out, they tell you in the academy like, you have to follow policy. You have to follow policy, policy, policy. They drill it into you. And yes, you have to follow policy. You have to follow policy. policy, but if there's nobody to escort these guys that you have to send out to education, and they're calling you and calling you and calling you to send them, like, what are you supposed

to do? So, like, you ask your supervisor, hey, I have to send these guys, but I've been calling the yard and there's no escorts. What do you want me to do? Just send them. Okay. So, out the door, you know. And it's hard because as a CEO, you're like, like, you know, I'm going to follow what my supervisors tell me, but I'm also bound by these policies. Like, I want to do the right thing, but I also don't want to get yelled at or written up on my supervisors, so you're kind of like in this hard position. And the supervisors too, like they have their supervisors. It's like, well, why are like the yard functions slow or like, why isn't child getting done? It's like, well, we don't have staff. Figure it out. So that's kind of what it turns out. It's like, well, it turns out.

into. And then I watched and I learned really early on that that's how it worked. And it wasn't hard to get used to. He got to a point where I actually kind of like enjoyed the, like I had a good group of yard officers that we worked together for the most part. And my FTO did come back. He was working the SMI building. So I got to work a lot. little bit within there for the time for the rest of my time for my on my FTO training and that was like you think like when you hear severely mentally ill and you think like in prison you kind of have like an like an expectation of like oh these are going to be like really crazy people and it was weird because like yeah they're there but the vast majority that I saw just seemed like kind of like regular

people and they don't really get into like the designations that much when you're there as far as like how people are designated SMI like they could have anxiety and they're designated SMI you know what I mean so it's not always somebody who's like on the outside really crazy it could be just somebody who's dealing with like severe depression or somebody who's been on meds on the streets and they come in and that's their diagnoses. And so that was kind of interesting too to see just a lot of what seemed like regular people inmates to me that they're SMI. They're not really that.

Like you think like they're not really that crazy. But then sometimes the crazy comes out. So you're like, oh, okay, that's why you're here. Are they treated worse in the SMI unit? Like they're really crazy. Or do they separate it by really crazy to be kind of midline or is everyone lumped in together? Sometimes. So it just depends on how they can house people because they have to, there's certain requirements

on how you can house people. Like if they have do not houses against other people in the building, well, they can't be in this building. They have to be over here. There was one house where it was kind of like unofficially the low functioning. guys and I don't think it was really intended to be that way it was just like okay these guys can't really house with the higher functioning guys because like they don't pick up after themselves or they keep their selves really dirty and then it causes like arguments and fights with these other guys

so we're going to put all these guys in this house and put these other guys in this house so that's just the way that it kind of worked out on my yard um but there was a one instance where it was kind of like really apparent to me about where I was. I was working one of the houses, one of the SMI houses, and they were out at rec, and the rec field was right in front of the building. So you just walk out of the building and you let them out and it's the wreck field. So I was walking out and I just like walking, doing a check. And I see one of the inmates arguing with the lieutenant and i'm kind of just like standing by and just like watching it and he had his he had his shirt off and he had his shorts like rolled up really high they were like super

high up and the lieutenant was telling him to unroll his shorts and he said that he didn't want to he's like no i'm not going to unroll my shorts and there's like a fence separating them right and the lieutenant's like telling him like you need to unroll your shorts that he's like you need to unroll your shorts shorts and you know it's to be fair i don't know why the lieutenant was like so on this because like for a lot of the smy guys you just kind of learn that there's some things that you would hold the standard for you know gp guys that you wouldn't hold the standard for the smy's just because there's like a level of lack of understanding or you pick your battles you know like if you know oh there's so-and-so he's just going to keep rolling your shorts up like it's really not that big

of a deal in the scheme of things if it keeps them on their baseline. And so they're like arguing back and forth. And the guy turns and he's like, okay, well, I'll just take him off. So he strips down and he's butt-ass naked. And he starts running straight towards me. And so I don't know, like, I'm just like looking. I'm like, what is he doing? Oh, he's running towards me.

And he's naked. And it doesn't seem like he sees me at first. And then mind you, this rec field also shares a fence with, like, the big GP rec field. So all those GP guys are out on rec, watching this happen, watching this naked SMI guy run right towards me. And I'm like, and then I hear my lieutenant over the radio being like, get him on the ground. And so I was like, okay, and I'm like, call it his name. I was like, stop running. Like, what are you doing?

Get on the ground. And he sees me and he can find like registers that I'm like right there. And he's like, he starts freaking out. He's like, no, no, you can't see me. No. So he gets on his knees and he faces the rec field and he like puts his hands, I don't know, behind his head. And he's like, I'm sorry. He keeps apologizing to me.

Like I'm sorry. I don't want to like expose. He didn't want to like expose himself to me. And, but the whole, like, recfield, full of, like, GP guys, they're just laughing. They think it's hilarious. And they're, like, you know, giving me shit for that whole situation. And even, like, years later, I would, like, run into guys that were on the field and they would remember it. They're like, oh, remember that one time?

Like, that guy, like, ran at you who's naked. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I remember. I try not to. But so, you know, people came and they, like, cuffed him up. I don't remember exactly what happened after that, but that was like kind of one of those things where it's like, you pick your battles with these guys. You know what I mean? Like if it's something really egregious, then you would address it. But like policy-wise, they tell you like, no, they should be held to the same standard.

But if you're dealing with somebody that doesn't have the same level of processing information or, you know, processing even what is expected of them, they don't even understand. how to really function more than just eating and using the, but you know what I mean? Like it's, there's some, some of them that were a very level of low functioning to where you really couldn't expect much of them in that way. Which also made it hard for the higher functioning ones around them. So there was a lot of tension, a lot of fights that happened, just because of the nature of people that you bring together.

other. Yeah, like you have one guy in a cell who's just dirty and he's not cleaning up after himself. He's not cleaning and never watches his clothes because he doesn't really care. You know, and you get another guy who wants things to be clean and orderly and obviously not have cockroaches all over your room, then it's going to cause a problem. So that was kind of like the biggest issues I found working in the S of my houses was just like the make sense. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking. Maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them.

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Is it harder to build a rapport from an officer's perspective with the SMI guys versus general population? It can be. There were a lot of CEOs that just hated working with the SMI. They would get cross-leveled, and they would just, they would not want to go out and interact with them. They're like, I don't want to be around these guys. Like, they're stupid.

They don't understand. Or, like, they're scary. You know, they're unpredictable. People didn't want to deal with it. And the thing with the SMIs is that they really needed consistency. So they wanted to see, like, the same people over and over again, right? So if you had new people all the time who, you know, every CO has a different way of doing things. And if they can't expect consistency from a day-to-day basis, it makes it harder for them to function.

So it would cause a lot of problems if CEOs that didn't want to work there and they didn't have a rapport and they didn't really care to understand, that's where a lot of problems would come into. So they tried to keep, like, if you wanted to work the SMI houses and you were, you know, pretty good at it, like the supervisors would keep you there. And it was like sort of a specialty post where at the time you had to put in for it and you had to, like, put in a memo of interest. Like you wanted to work the house or the program or whatever it was at the time. like to state that you wanted to work there and so that way they would keep the same people like on rotation like throughout the shifts so I mean it did help like because the more that you're around them

the more that you talk to them and the more that you understand their baseline and oh that's normal for that guy and like I remember in one building this guy clockwork sometimes would just start screaming you know and if you had never worked there before you would start freaking out like why is this guy screaming like and then you go see and he's just like screaming you have no idea what's going on but as somebody who's like been there every day you'd understand like okay that's just he does that do you think that there needed to be another level of training for to work the SMI unit like in the academy or even if you were selected to work in that unit

they so they did once they turned it into like fully operational SMI they started doing SMI training. I didn't get it initially because it was so new. They sent a bunch of us to Florence for like three days of training for SMIs. And it was basically just like people come and talk to you. Like you have PowerPoints. They give you like a workbook kind of. You learn about the different mental health disorders, personality disorders, you know, just like a basic psychology class. kind of. And to be honest, I don't think it ever really prepared you for what you're actually seeing. At the time Tucson was really new for the mental health program. It was mostly in Iman, which is across the street from Florence. They had their mental health program there. But,

yeah, it wasn't really, it gave an overview. So if, like, you had never dealt with anything mental health-related, I guess it would be a good way to kind of get like a brief crash course on it, but to actually deal with an actually mentally ill in my population, I don't think it did a good job. Now, do these individuals, do you think that they deserve to be locked up in there? Do you think that they need to have a different type of rehabilitation center or a psychology or a psych type facility rather than just throw them in a prison from your own perspective? Yeah, it's hard to say. I mean, I have my own, and I was going to get into it a little bit later with what I'm currently doing now,

but it's hard to say because, you know, on one hand, you do want to see justice for victims and that somebody is paying for the crime, but, you know, essentially these are people that need help. they need help that they never got either in childhood or, you know, in their current situation. And a lot of the times the crimes that are done are acted out of desperation because of those situations that they're put in. And a lot of it's environmental. And I will say that from what I experienced, a lot of it was also drug-induced. it there was like a high level of

like drug-induced paranoia just people that had smoked spice once and they were like their brain was gone and you know there's no help for that in the prison so much I mean you're in prison and now you have to just do your time

but where's the real help for the issues that come from whatever was before. You know, so if you're experiencing homelessness or, you know, mental health issues before or family issues, like the majority of these people are going to be out. You know, there's a very small percentage of people that are in for life. So, you know, if they're not getting the help they need in prison and then they're not going to get the help they need when they leave, they're just going to come back.

And I saw that a lot too. What was the first situation in your first weeks or months of you being in the prison where it kind of lived up to the hype of what they were saying these types of facilities were like during training. So within like six or seven months of me working there, I was asked to start working in the suicide watch house. That was my first like real posting. And, you know, it was cool because, you know, the people that worked there, we got to wear like the staff best. and nobody else wore the stab vest, so you're like, okay, we're the cool kids wearing the stab vest. But it was a lot more than that in actually working there.

So you're one of four, and the way that they had it set up was when you're sent to suicide watch, you're initially on a continuous watch, which is having somebody sit there and watch you for continuously until you're taken off watch. and then it went to like a 10 minute where you just walk around every 10 minutes and have to sign for whatever it is that they're doing and then it went to a 30 minute and on each level

you're given certain things so like on a continuous watch you're really not allowed anything other than the suicides mock and then on a 10 minute you're allowed like paper or like a different like the food would be different we'd prepare it differently based on your level.

So, like, you wouldn't have a tray. You'd have, like, a dinner sack. Something that you wouldn't be able to really harm yourself with. Like, no forks, no pencils, no really anything else that you could potentially harm yourself with. And then 30 minutes is where you're kind of like, okay, you're off watch almost. Like, you're going to have regular clothes and then, like, food. I think it's changed now from when I was working there, but when I worked there,

this is how it was. And I was working there for a while. And they're like, we were never supposed to be brought down below four because just of the nature of, like, this is a suicide watch. I was like, this is pretty serious. People are here because they want to commit suicide. You should probably have all the staff there to make sure that nobody dies. And they would bring us down to numbers. So, like, three.

And even with one person being gone, that puts the workload onto another person. to do their walks and to make sure that everything is being done for everybody else like showers and wreck and like doing all the stuff for these guys and there was one time where they brought us down and

during the daytime you also have to do so like medical comes to the house and you have to do the meds and you have to bring them out for their appointments and they're all restrained it's their belly chained or handcuffed

you can't bring them out unrestrained. And so it's just a lot more hands-on. So when you bring it down to another person, or leave another person out of it, then there's more work that has to be done. So at this time, there was a lot going on. And it wasn't on my run specifically, but I hear on the radio, we have an MA hanging. And I'm like, here in this house? Like, I start freaking out, because I'm like, is it on my run? And then I'm looking around, and it's on one of the other runs. And so my coworker, he had put a guy in the shower,

and they're not allowed to have towels, like, in their cells or anything. But when they're in the shower, they can have their towel dry off, and then they have to give the towel back. Well, he had tied the towel to the handle of the shower door and had tied it around his neck, and he, like, had dropped himself to where he's hanging from the towel, like, off the shower door. and in my head I'm thinking like like somehow I fucked up

like I'm working in this house somehow this is going to like you know so my co-worker and I like he unties it and it was tied pretty tight he's like struggling and like we didn't have the scissors on hand so we're just trying to untie this thing and we open the door and you know he falls and

we're trying to render aid at that point and thankfully like medical wasn't so far away so they get there and and it was like one of those like shit this is this was real like it was the first really like I had experienced like fights and stuff before that but that was kind of like the moment where I was like yeah this is this is real shit and I never really experienced anything like close well I did later on but you know within the suicide watch house at that point like I didn't that was the the first and only time that I really experienced that we were pretty good about making sure you know but it was just one of those moments where like it was a mix of all the wrong things right like you're short staffed you're trying to get everything done and I think because I mean nothing

happened to us right because we were doing our job we were doing everything that we were supposed to it and it would have fallen back on the supervisors and admin because it would have asked them like why wasn't this house staff when it's supposed to be staff that would have prevented this like we weren't the ones entirely responsible at that point so but he he was fine it was you know caught it really early so do you feel like you were trained well enough to handle a situation like that like is that something they teach you in training no they I mean they tell you that it happens and that it can and obviously it's our job to make sure it doesn't happen. But to actually handle something in that moment, you know, a lot of people freeze,

and I saw that a lot. You know, later, people freeze in the moment. They don't know what to do. But I never really had a problem with that. It was like, okay, immediately we're going to handle this situation. So it was, and it was handled. But, yeah, that was the first time where I was like, I don't know. Now, I know in the federal system, like every quarter,

the officers would switch to a new cell or a block or a rotation? Was that like that where you were? Kind of. So especially the nature of the house, it's heavy. You deal with suicides or like suicidal ideation like every single day. And so I was there for two years. And then I went to, they had expanded the mental hold program. at that point to, it used to be the miners unit, and it was kind of like, we called it its own

little like island, because it was attached by gates, but it wasn't fully a part of like the Rinkon unit. It was like its own little unit off to the side, because that's where the miners used to be. And they turned it into another SMI program. There's only two houses. It was really small, but I ended up transferring over there after doing my time there. It wasn't that they, like I didn't have to go, but I felt like it was time. Two years is a long time to work one unit. Yeah, it was a long time. Like you feel it where you're like, okay, I'm kind of tired of this routine now.

I need something else. And I wasn't giving my all to something anymore that I had initially been excited about and now it was kind of like more like a drag um and a lot of it had to do with at the time that and it'll come in handy later but there was an inmate that was in there who had become like obsessed with me and it was like funny to a point because he was crazy um or he acted crazy I couldn't say but he would like call my name out for hours

even when I wasn't even working there and like I would do overtime and people are like oh you're redhead we know about you because this guy yells her name all the time yeah so and he was put into the low functioning house that was right next door to the

to the suicide watch house and there would come a point where he when they were out at wreck and we would be leaving because we were relieved for the day, he'd be waiting because he wanted to just come up and try to talk to me. And it got to a point where the other inmates wanted to beat him up because he was being so creepy. And so I was like, well, you know what, it's all right.

I'm going to move next door to the other unit. I don't want to do with this. So that's how it happened. And I was working there for, I want to say, like six or seven months. and I really liked it. We had a good group there. And that was kind of like my really big, oh, shit moment where I was working at house and I was helping one of the psych staff get inmates. And again, it's the short staff where there was one of us working in the bubble. And the way that it works is that they can't leave the bubble.

They're stuck there. And then I was the floor. and there were supposed to be two of us on the floor, but because we were short staff, there was only one of us. So I was working the floor, and mind you, this house housed 100 inmates or so. So just me on the floor to 100 inmates that I have to manage. It can get pretty hectic, especially with the SMI population. So I was helping her and I was getting guys out to medical and there was like a gate in front of the house that separated the house from the rec field. So the rec field was like all in front of, it was basically just the whole yard and then you had like medical and like the admin building and then the other house was right next door.

But they would have to go like out to the rec field and then up to medical. and so I got them and I was opening the gate and as I was opening the gate there wasn't inmate and like I said under normal situations you might it might be a red flag but with SMIs they do weird stuff all the time like he's just like kind of walking in front and I was like okay and he walked kind of a little ways to the side so I opened the gate and as soon as I open the gate he turns around and he comes at me. I didn't know that he had a pencil and he's stabbing me in the face. I thought that he was just punching me. And so, you know, it kicks in to where you just like, okay, and I tried to like grab him and like try to get him. We're like going to get to the ground. And we got to the ground. I'm trying to hold him. And these other two inmates, I could hear him. I could hear him. And he was, And they're trying to, and they're like, one of them is hitting him in the head. The other guy is trying to, like, hold his feet.

And I'm telling them, no, like, you guys need to go. Go. Because in my head, I'm thinking, well, if my help comes, like, they're going to think that they're also a part of it, like attacking me or something. So I didn't want anybody else to be involved. And so, like, I'm trying to, like, hold him on the ground. And we're kind of, like, wrestling. And I see, like, blood just come off from my body.

I feel like it's on my arm and I'm like where am I bleeding from like I had no idea like there's blood I don't know where I'm bleeding from and I didn't even have time or really think to like get my radio I just needed to get him to the ground thankfully the psych stuff that I had been helping she had gotten over the radio and she's like screaming into it like staff salt staff salt but the problem is that she was on the big yards channel not our little yards channel so her yelling went over at the radio on the other side and she's like staff assault staff assault house 11 which is people know is like on our side so they they all heard it over there and they're like oh it's over here like so they're calling over to our unit like you guys have a staff salt

And so, you know, all of a sudden, and I don't know any of this at the time, obviously. I'm, like, wrestling with this guy in the dirt. So all of a sudden, all these guys, like, I hear them. They're, like, running and they're, like, holding on to him. And they're like, you're good, you're good. Like, they're trying to, you know, they get him. And so I went into that. Like, immediately I'm just like, okay, I need to get, like, the leg irons.

So, because they had the handcuffs, but they didn't have, like, leg arms for him. because for the SMIs, what they had was called a restraint chair. So if you're going to, like, escort somebody in this situation, you know, you're going to put them in the chair so that you can escort them wherever you need to be so they're not harming themselves or you. So I go into the house and the guy that was working in the bubble, like, and again, I didn't see my face. I don't know what I look like at this point, but I had, like, kind of smeared or, like, rubbed my face.

My hair is kind of crazy. So he looks at me and his face is just like, and I'm like, I need the leg irons. Give me the leg irons. And there's like a little trap, you know, that that's how we're communicating. He like put stuff through it. And he puts paper towels into the trap. I was like, I don't need paper towels.

I need the leg irons. So he gives me the leg irons and like I grabbed paper towels, but like I don't know the extent of like what my face looks like. So I don't think I, like, why do we need paper towels? I know I'm bleeding, but, like, I didn't know what I looked like. So I get the leg irons and put them on him, and, you know, there's a bunch of people there at that point. So they're like, get her away, get her to medical. Because, like, if you're involved in a situation, the first thing that they want to do is remove you so that if anything happens, you're not, like, there's no, like, revenge or retaliation or anything involved in it.

so and I think I remember him the inmate. I imagine like I didn't have any interaction with this inmate prior like I I knew him obviously because he was there but we had had no bad prior interaction nothing at all it was just so random to me and he was like cussing at me from the ground and stuff and like I was just like I don't even know you. Like, you know? And so I go to medical and, like, everyone that I'm passing and, like, I remember walking, like, the wreck filled. And I'm, like, smiling.

And people are just, like, what was wrong? Like, I had blood all over my face. I went to medical and I saw, like, I looked in the mirror and there was, like, blood. Like, I had smeared it because, like, when I, like, wiped out of my eyes, like, I had smeared it all over my face. And it was under the eye. and on my lip and on the side of my head that he had got me and i remember walking up and everyone's just like i got like you look terrible you have blood all over your face um yeah i just i was like okay this really happened to me i was severely attacked i did i you know people say

that you can be and people have even you know died working in prison but like I never thought it would happen to me. I thought that, you know, I treated people pretty respectfully. I was fair, you know, firm, fair, and consistent. I felt like I followed all of that. And I was like, what, what happened? Like, I couldn't even, like, really wrap my head around, like, why this even happened until I remembered that, you know, with an SMI population, it doesn't even have to,

You don't even have to have a reason. They just can be unpredictable that way. How bad were the puncture wounds? It's definitely not as bad as it seemed initially. I do have a scar underneath my eye, and it bled for a while. I had to go to urgent care, and they, like, put glue on it. But, like, I didn't need stitches or anything. I think just because of facial wounds, it just bleeds a lot more.

and like having been in like martial arts and stuff anytime like you're hitting the head or the face or something it tends to like bleed a lot more but when he was taken to so like immediately after a situation like this happens they're taken to the suicide watch house and he had said to the guys that escorted him that

he wanted to gouge my eyes out with a razor blade the razor blade that he had in his pocket but for some reason he decided to use a pencil and he broke the pencil on my face they found it in pieces and i only really heard about this at first because i heard it over the radio they said oh the weapon's been recovered and i was like weapon like i don't even know what was used like you know at first i thought it was like his dirty long fingernails and i started freaking out because i'm like I don't even know what's under, like, you know what I mean?

I could have something, like, I have to take that big pill that they make you take for Hep C or something, but, like, I started worrying about that. And, no, I heard that it was the pencil and, you know, all of that was like a crime scene. And it turned into a whole thing where when I came, so the deputy warden called me after that. And he's like, if you need to take time. time you can take time and I said no I'll be back to work on my Monday because it was my Friday at that point and my Monday was going to be on like Wednesday or something I was like no I'll be back and I think a lot of that was like I'm gonna not that I need to prove it but I wanted like I'm

tough I can handle it like I'm good you know I don't need to take time for people you know in my head I'm thinking people would judge me for feeling some type of way about it. I felt like a need to prove myself almost. Like, no, I got it handled. Like, I can go through something like that and like come out. Like, I'm fine. And so I didn't. I came back the next workday. You know, everyone kind of expected me to take time off because, you know, in that field, it's like you're giving time off, like you're going to take time off. But it was more of a pride thing for me where, like, he's not going to, you know, make me afraid of my job or, like, hurt me or whatever.

But I remember the day before I had told the guy that I was dating at the time, he worked there. It's like I'm kind of nervous to go back to work, you know? And I was. obviously like something like that happens like you're going to be kind of anxious and nervous to go back to the environment like what else can happen you know um but I'm like well the sooner I get back there the sooner that I face it the sooner that I can just push it down and continue doing what I've always done with trauma just push it down and continue on and so that's what I did and he ended up

getting street charged and I had to go through. So street charges the Pima County Attorney's Office. They charged him for like assault on an officer. So I had to go through. I didn't go to the court hearings, but they would notify me of all the court hearings that he was going through. And I did go to his sentencing because the judge asked me to give a statement, like a victim's impact statement. And it was interesting going through the process as a victim because I had never, you know, I've gone through stuff, but I'd never gone through the court system before, especially as a victim. So it was an interesting process for me where I kind of got an insight into how it works and, like,

to hear the victim's side of it. And I made a statement. and his mental health was definitely taken into account. I think he only ended up getting like 18 months or two years or something like that added to his time. But, I mean, you know, it was pretty, it was traumatic for me, but like in the scope of harm done, like it was pretty minimal, I guess you could say. I'm happy it was done to me and not to other COs that I was working with who might not have handled it as well. or as much as I did. Like I had the previous martial arts experience,

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Do you think it's tougher to be a female correctional officer in a male facility than it is to be a male? 100%. 100%. There's two sides to it, right? So it's hard to be the female CEO to male. mates because a lot of them one they just look at you as something as a potential to to use and that's

really all I looked at as like you're just looking as a way to get something out of me that's all it is like you don't like you don't care you know like they don't care about you they just like want to figure out ways to exploit you and then two they don't respect you because a lot of them I mean honestly hate women you know like they don't want to to take directives from a woman. They don't feel like they should listen to you. And that just is what it is. And then on the other side, you know, being a woman working with like other male co-workers, it's like the same thing. Like you could be in a situation where like they don't really respect you because you're a woman and they don't feel like you can do the job the same or there's, it's, it's

unequal in the sense that they don't really trust that you can have their back the same way that a male officer can. And I get that. And then at the same time, you're also just another person that they want to try to hook up with, which is it's a whole other thing. But yeah, so it's definitely hard. You feel like you have to prove a lot all the time. Like you're always on. and it's also harder too to build rapport in the same way with the inmates because you know you want to give the same level of respect but at the same time you know you can't talk too much to

this in me otherwise somebody might think something or you can't spend a certain amount of time you know talking to so-and-so or you know people just like to have stuff in their heads or like this and it gets upset because you're talking to him about something. And, you know what I mean? There's like a jealousy thing sometimes or, you know, it's just, it can be difficult. You know, you try your best to be respectful. And sometimes, you know, things just happen. People just don't like you.

Yeah, I feel like you have to teeter that line of you don't want to be flirtatious or too nice, but you also want to treat them with the same respect. that you would treat someone else in any situation. But some people take it the wrong way, just like in the free world outside of prison, men take someone's kindness the wrong way. Yeah, exactly. And I would run into that where I'm like, you know,

I'm being respectful and like we're talking, we're laughing about a TV show or something. Like, this doesn't mean I'm in love with you. So, you know, there's always that line that you have to keep. And that was in my head, like, when I had gone through my trauma, I always thought in my head, like, you know, people just want to exploit you. Like, that level of trust wasn't there for anybody. So I get into this job.

And in my head, I'm just thinking, like, you're acting like you care, but you don't care. I know you don't care. Like, you just want to find a way to exploit or take advantage of whatever you think it is that I have. And so it was really easy for me to, like, keep that line where I'm just like, look, I can talk to you. and I'm respectful and I'm nice, but that's as far as it goes. Did you see female officers that kind of cross the line or put a little too much out there? I mean, there were incidents where they were nothing that I really saw firsthand. I mean, you hear like the stories, like there were a few females that quit or got fired because of certain things.

But nothing that I saw directly or that I was like directly involved with. at all like it was always like someone from a different unit or someone from a different shift like someone that I didn't really know personally but within like my uh scope of what I saw it didn't really happen people were pretty good about keeping the line and and for men too because it happens for men too um you would hear rumors for men as well that they were under investigation or fired because they were bringing stuff in or whatever and it didn't happen as often as often as as people think it does. And a lot of the times the rumors are that are just rumors.

Like, it goes through an investigation and, you know, nothing comes out of it. Or people think that things are happening, and really, there's nothing happening. So do you think male inmates respect female officers or male officers more? It depends. I saw both. I saw them definitely respect female officers. Like, in the situation where the male inmates stepped in, I don't think they necessarily would have done that for a male CO getting beat up.

But some of them have that old school mentality where it's like you don't hit women, even if their COs, like, you're not going to hit them. And with the SMIs, it was kind of different because they're a different population. They have different, you know, baselines where they don't have those standards. But a lot of them were of that old school mentality

where they kept that, where they were more respectful to me than my male co-worker. and so sometimes like if things were happening they would send me in to go talk to so-and-so because they felt like I could handle the situation a little bit better. But then there were other times where the men didn't want to listen to me. They were like, I don't know if it was like mom issues or something, but they just, they didn't respect me. They just didn't want to hear anything I had to say.

And it was not because of me personally. It was just they found like, more rapport with the male co-workers than with me. And that's kind of one of the things working there that you just have to not take personal is like you're not going to please everybody. Like you're not going to have the respect of everybody, even if you don't do anything wrong. It's just the way that it is in the nature of the job. Did you always work the SMI unit or did you eventually shift?

No, I was there the entire time. Entire seven years. The entire seven years. Is that common or? No, usually people will switch around. So what they used to do when I started working there is they would have a unit limit. So it would be, I think, five years at the time where they would be a limit of only working five years and then you'd have to switch units. Well, COVID hit.

And then it was so short staff that they took that away. So they were no longer doing unit rotations. And it was hard getting people to want to work at my unit because just of the nature. of the job people it was 12 hours it was long it there's a lot of work especially during the day shift um you're pretty much doing everything you're doing all the turnouts you're doing rec showers phone calls everything um and also dealing on top of that with an unstable population and especially after going through what I went through. And after that happened, it spread. Like, everybody knew what happened. And even, like, people from different complexes, like, I remember the sergeant came down to do

overtime one night, and I was staying to do overtime on the night shift. And I was talking to him, and somehow it got on the topic because, you know, my co-operate, my friends, they like to bring it up, you know, that I block things with my face. I like, it's just like a joke sometimes, you know, you have to find the dark humor and the things that happened, but he was like, oh, that was you? Oh, I heard about that. And we're like, it's crazy. Like, things just spread. And that was the worst one that happened, but it definitely wasn't the last one.

It was like four or five months after that where I was assaulted again. And this time, it was a PC move. He just didn't want to lock down. He wanted to move. and the move wasn't being done fast enough that he wanted it. So the quickest way to move, that's all the CO. So he was like unpacking his stuff from his cell and I was like, what are you doing? He's like, well, I'm going to move.

I'm like, well, no, you're not. And I was like, there's like a time. You know, we have to figure this out. I can't let you just move. There's like a whole process that has to be done. And he's like, well, if I'm not going to move right now, we're going to fight. So I was like, okay. So he comes at me and he's throwing hands and I'm like, okay, we're going to throw hands. So like he tries to grab my hair, which I'm like, let's throw hands,

you know, don't grab my hair like we're girls here. I mean, I am, but you know. So he tries to grab my hair. I get a hit in and as I do, like I'm trying to like come back in. You're good. as I do, I'm trying to, you know, wrap him up again. And, like, we're in the hallway this time instead of, like, outside. So I, you know, slam him up against the door. And then the bubble officer had called it in because he saw it. And funny enough, my ex was the responder. So he's, like, beating on him too.

And, like, we're trying to, like, cuff him up. And, you know, I got a few hits. on my head but it wasn't he didn't hit hard so another day in the life another day it was another Tuesday but it was you know just another thing that added to this like

okay I guess this is like I'm doing real prison um and I didn't tell my family that this stuff was going on I mean it's just not something that I wanted to worry them about.

I mean, I remember when I got stout, my sergeant had me call my emergency contact, which was my dad, and he said, you need to call him and just let him know. I was like, no, I don't. It's like, just you need to call him and just let him know. So I told him, I was like, hey, something happened at work. Like, I'm fine, but I'm going to go to urgent care. And of course, he's like, what happened? Like her like, what do you mean?

And I'm like, no, I'm fine. It's just a little altercation. Like, I'm good. And it wasn't until, like, a little while later where I kind of like went into the whole story and told them. But they didn't even realize, like, the level of threats that we were really exposed to. I mean, a lot of my family members would ask, like, well, you carry guns, right? Like, no, no, we don't carry guns. Did you even carry pepper spray?

Or was that only for the higher security officers? No, we all carried pepper spray. And I used it. There was a lot of fights where I would use it. But when you're in like a close contact like that, you're throwing hands. You want to create the distance to spray, but at the same time, like, you want to get them on the ground. You want to close the distance rather than create distance. I mean, they tell you to create distance to, like, get away.

But for me, I was like, no, I'm going to get them on the ground, get them in handcuffs, you know, if, because if there's distance, there's more ways for them to come back and attack me. So, but if I'm, you know, wrapping them up, if we're on the ground, then, you know, the level of threat isn't so much anymore. But the physical altercations were definitely interesting. It was, uh, the sexual ones that were not. There was, and it didn't happen. It was pretty rare for things like, this to happen, but there was this inmate, and again, it's SMI.

And I had called him out to see psych, because they have, like, regular psych meetings that they have to do. And so I had called him out, and I'm just like, hey, you know, I need to see psych, and I'm just going to escort you into the room. And he stops, and I'm, like, looking, I'm just like, okay, what are you? doing? And he looks at me and he's like, can I fuck you? And then he drops his pants and starts masturbating in front of me. And I'm like, it's one of those where like, what is even going? Like, and I turned because like the bubble window was like right there and my bubble officer's in there and he's

like, like, he has his look of like what in the fuck is going on. And I'm like, I get on the radio and I'm like, I'm initiating for assault. Like, I just like, I don't even know what to say over the radio. Like, because what are you going to say, like, as the nature of the incident? Like, he's masturbating in front of me. Like, so, and I turn around and I go into, like, the bubble, and I'm telling the male officer that's in there. I was like, you deal with him.

Because if I do it, I'm going to get in trouble because I'm going to beat his ass right now. So he goes out there and he, and the guy, he's just, just, you know, he still going at it and the officer's like, you know, tells him, and he, and as soon as the guy comes out there, of course, he like pulls up his pants

and then he just turns around and he cuffs up. And it was just one of those like totally unnecessary, like, why do I even have to be subjected to this kind of situations? And

because of the nature of the incident, Um, they call it CIU, which is the criminal investigation unit. They investigate, you know, the, the crimes that happen. And because of the nature, they're like, okay, well, we need to interview you and you need to give us, like, the full, like, what happened. So I told them. And, like, I was trying not to, like, laugh, but I'm like, this is so stupid. But also it's not stupid because it's like,

my male co-workers don't have to do this. Like, they don't get subjected to this, but, like, I do. And I was just, like, more angry at him at that point. And so, like, I get back, and it's, like, the next day. And we're turning out for Chow. And so they had put me up working main control. And, again, it's a small unit, so it's, like, not really that busy. And you have, like, the cameras of main control.

And you're there for the whole day. Like, you don't come out onto the yard. and I see a fight happening on one of the cameras. While in that house, two other inmates were beating up that inmate. Like they had kept him on the yard. They didn't move him off or anything. And so they were beating him up. And they're like, you're going to disrespect the female staff like that

by doing something totally outrageously crazy that's to like do that. Like, they beat him up. and honestly I didn't fault them for it. In fact, afterwards, like, I went and I was like, thank you, you know? Like, you did what I couldn't do. And there was some level of, like, prison justice there. And they're like, well, yeah, well, you know, you treat us all with respect. Like, we're not going to just let that happen to you.

So, you know, that was kind of one of those moments where I'm like, okay, well, you know, there's some justice in this situation sometimes. Do these SMI inmates have their own type of prison politics, too? They do. It's not, like I said, it's not super, like, race-related or, like, but they have their own gangs, too. Like, I can't tell you what they are because I didn't really get into the politics that much, but they definitely have their own way of doing things in their own code.

And each house is different, too. like just the setup of people that you have in there they have I guess like heads of the house it's usually the porters that are like the ones running stuff um but each house each yard is different in the way that they interact with each other and and with SMIs especially like it's usually the higher functioning ones that are you know handling everything and and sometimes you even get We called hideouts, which were like people who were not really us and I, but somehow got into the program. And they really weren't supposed to be there. They just didn't want to be on like a regular yard.

But they were problems because they would take advantage of the lower functioning inmates a lot. So like if you have a lower functioning inmate who had a lot of money on his books or had family who supported him and had a lot of store, like they're going to target that guy because they, wanted what he had and they would use him to get money or whatever so there's a lot of paying attention to things like that that were happening because we would tell supervisors we would tell like the psych staff the psych staff would even sometimes tell us like hey I think this is happening so we would work together a lot like the psych staff were there every single day and they were seeing these guys every single day like they had regular programming regular um like classes and also like individual sessions that we would have to do with them.

So we would make sure that that wouldn't happen, but obviously you can't really help it all the time. Sometimes it happens. Now, when you're working a 12-hour shift, do you feel like you're an inmate in a way yourself, just being locked in there? I imagine you can't have your phone. Yeah, we weren't allowed our phones or any real, anything other than what we were issued. No books, magazines, like literally not. nothing. So it was a lot like we were doing time with them. And even like the inmates would joke that we were doing time with them too. And I did a lot of overtime. Like I said, I buried myself in work a lot just to not deal with a lot that was going on. It was kind of like, and they would tell you

don't make work your escape, but I made work my escape. So, I did a lot of overtime, and so they'd be like, you know, you're here with us more than you are with your friends or family. I'm just like, well, it's not because I like you guys at all, just the paychecks, you know? So, yeah, I mean, but it's true. Like, I would be there more than I would see my family. And it definitely hurt, you know, later on when things were going on with my family that I just wasn't involving myself with. it was April of 20, 23, when my brother passed away from a fentanyl overdose. And I knew that things were bad.

But like I said, I was away. I was just trying to be busy with work and not be involved with, like, the drama that was there all the time. because like even with family relationships like you want to be there but there there's also boundaries that you have to have if like people don't want help which he didn't want he just wanted to be on a spiral that at some point you just have to be like well I need to for my own mental health for my own like sanity I have to create a boundary with you and so for my family it was like well I'm not going to see you that much you know I would it was probably like every couple months that I would see them, even though we live in the same town.

But it was just hard for me because, like, I'm a doer. You know, like, if you come to me for advice, I'm going to tell you, like, okay, this is what you need to do. Like, let's make an action plan. And it was always just, like, coming to me for advice, but never following through. And then, like, when you try to help them, they don't want to help. so then you're like well like what am I even here for and so after that happened it was it was hard to be at work because you have a lot like I said there was a lot of substance abuse in the prison and people making jokes about it and there was even it was while I was I wasn't working that day but one of the inmates in the house that I had regularly

worked at he had an overdose it was like around the same time that my brother died and it was like same thing it was fentanyl and he went to the hospital and he came back and he was joking about it how oh yeah you know I'll just all do it again and I just get so angry I just remember getting so angry like you lived but my brother didn't and I didn't know how to reconcile that as far as like a professional standpoint like how to maintain like how am I supposed to to treat you like everybody else when like I have these like personal and they tell you to like leave your personal life at the door and you really try to but sometimes things just happen like this that are so like they can be traumatic and you really don't know how to like handle it and I think I did a

pretty good job I mean it's not like I said anything or you know went off on him or anything but it's like it just kind of colors the way that you approach them and your work. Did you ever encounter inmates that were serving time for sexual assault? And if so, how did you react towards that as someone that was a victim yourself in high school? Yeah, it was pretty common, actually. In fact, I think like one of my porters was, it's just the compartmentalization and, you know, just the nature of, you know, the SMI. There was no, like, you couldn't have this crime or this crime there were you know child molesters there were people in for murder like it was a high custody yard so these people were in for really serious things um and a lot of the times I didn't want to

know what they had done like some of my co-workers liked to look up the charges and he could easily like look it up online but I didn't want to know I was like because it's going to affect the way that I do my job like if I know that you're a child molester or rapist like it's going to like I'm not going to be able to treat you the same way that I would treat anybody else. And being fair and consistent was important to me because I wanted to do good at my job. I wanted to be, you know, a decent CEO. Like, you know, that was my job and I wanted to be, you know, do the best that I could be at it. Because that's kind of just how I approach things in life in general is just, I'm here,

I'm going to do the best that I can and whatever it is that I'm doing, even if I don't always agree with the nature of what I'm doing. And it got to that point where I was like, what am I even doing here anymore? Am I even doing anything good here anymore? But, yeah, I was pretty cognizant of not letting my personal traumas try to color how I, because, you know, they weren't the ones that affected me, right? I mean, I could look at it that way. Like, you know, a rapist to one, a rapist to all.

But, like, I try not to take it personal. And I think that's a really important aspect of the job is, like, you'll come in, you know, everybody comes in with traumas. But you just can't let it be the thing that holds you back from actually being good at your job. And you just have to put those on the back burner. Those inmates that do those types of crimes, do you see a common theme across all of their, individual personalities? No, honestly. It's kind of crazy because

you could be talking to somebody that you might think is just like a regular dude or just looks like somebody that you wouldn't even notice like on the street, but they had done something really terrible. And that was also a hard thing

to reconcile for being on the outside is like you really never know someone's intentions or who someone actually is. And just having worked in the job for so long, you start to not trust anybody on the outside as well as on the inside. And, like, I already didn't trust anybody,

so it wasn't really a difference for me. But, you know, for people that weren't really exposed to anything before, now you're suddenly like, oh, like, this guy could be my name. neighbor and he's, you know, a serial child molester. Like, that's insane. Like, you can't, you can't really wrap your head around, around that level of, like, depravity, but this person looks normal. And so, it's just one of those hard things that you have to deal with. And, but also at the same time, like, they're there already being punished. You know, I can't punish you again by being like too difficult or too hard or like a super cop on you like I'm you know it's again

with the firm fair and consistent they would drill into us from day one like you just have to leave your personal issues at the door and treat everybody the same did that feeling of not feeling like you were being positive like doing a positive thing in your life because you went into this career for advocacy work. Did that help push you out the door to leave corrections? Yeah. So I eventually was just like, well, I had gone my master's in criminal justice and I wanted to get into parole.

It was, I think the beginning of 2023 when I started the program and then I graduated in like the middle of 2024. And I was like, I need to do something. other than just being a CL. Like I need to do more. And so I originally thought that I could do parole because, you know, you're working with reentry. You're helping them find placements.

You know, on the outside, you're working with, like, recovery on some level, you know. But even that, it got to a point where I was like, you know, I'm working in a system that, like, I really even don't think is useful to begin with. Like, I'm part of the system and I don't want to be a part of this system anymore. And, like, I see it every day where it's not working. You know, one of the inmates that had beat up that guy from, I don't want to say for me,

but, like, you know, he'd beat up that guy. And he had gotten released. and then we found out from our CO3, which is like the program side of it, they're like on the same level as a sergeant, but they're like on the program side almost. He said that he had died of an overdose, like three days after being released.

And like having talked to him, obviously for a long time because you pretty much have the same population for a while. You know, higher custody they're in for a while. long time. There's really not like a whole, you know, influx of new people or like in and out, in and out. It's just like you pretty much have the same population for a while, like at the release here and there, but so I had known him for a long time. And he was just like, yeah, I'm excited to get out. Like I'm, you know, be with my girl and like, it's exciting. And then come to find out that he died three days later. I was just like, where was the failure?

You know, what could have been done to, like, help this individual be successful, like, once released? Like, what could anything have been done? I don't know. You know, like, obviously somebody who's dealing with substance abuse issues, like, having seen that personally, it's hard. And then, you know, you're without it for so long, and then, like, you get out and you think, like, oh, I could try it, you know? And then that's it. I don't know. I don't really know what the answer is, but I definitely didn't want to be a part of the problem anymore. So I quit in October of 2024,

and I applied to law school again. I was like, I'm going to fulfill this dream that I had had, and I'm actually in a position where I feel like, you know, I can do something other than what I had been doing, actually be helpful and feel like I'm doing better advocacy work than I was, like, in the prison system. And so I got accepted. That's what I'm doing now. I go to Mitchell Hamlin School of Law, and I'm excited. So I'm hoping that, you know, my future is kind of better than the, you know, the prison system and the walls that I was in. and I don't really know exactly what that's going to look like,

but I'm hoping to get into juvenile defense, criminal defense, doing just better work, being that person that a lot of people didn't have to advocate for them. I mean, you see a lot that people can afford, like, a good lawyer, you know, somebody that actually cares about their case, or people, you know, public defenders are often so overwhelmed by, caseloads that, you know, you're just kind of going through the motions and, you know, you need somebody to actually care to really see some justice. And I don't know if, like, you know, I'm going to.

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Well, you definitely bring a unique experience to that type of law as a correctional officer for so many years in a higher custody facility. I mean, how many lawyers probably have that experience in the criminal defense world, actually experiencing what the people they're representing could go through? I don't think a lot. And to be honest, I think a lot of them could use the experience. I mean, just at least, you know, be there for a few days, see what it's actually like on the inside, see what you're sentencing these people too. You know, you see it a lot where, and I'm not like hating on prosecuting attorneys, but you just get, you know, this idea in your head that you're doing justice.

But sometimes justice doesn't always look like sending the bad guy to jail, you know? there's a lot more that can be done and I don't think that there's a lot of rehabilitation going on in the prison system at all like I saw it like it wasn't happening and a lot of what they claimed were you know rehabilitative

programs or it wasn't even being offered to high custody inmates or SMI inmates so how can you rehabilitate these people if you're not even giving them the opportunity like you're just locking them in throw away the key and then you expect when they get release that all of a sudden they're going to be functional members of a society.

It's just not going to happen. Do you want to own your own practice or do you want to work with another firm? I think originally I wanted to own my own practice and like so my dad has his and then I'd be able to kind of like stem off of his. But I think the best route for me would be to get experience actually working, you know, in the system. and getting that like litigation practice before I go into you know private work I think obviously private work is where the money is but I'm not in it for the money at all it's more like this has become

like my passion so it's more of just following that and eventually I would like to do more with like juvenile defense which is kind of hard if you're like in the system or kind of just like given whatever's thrown to you, but if I can get to a point where I'm, you know, picking and choosing my cases, that's something that I'm more aligned to just because, you know, the change starts early. You know, a lot of, and I tell this to people too because people are like, well, how can you be in the correction system? You see all these bad guys, and then all of a sudden you want to, like, represent the bad guys? It doesn't even make any sense. I'm like, well, you know, you look at, like a level playing field. A lot of these people did not have a level playing field. If you come from

broken homes and, you know, drug abuse and a lot of violence, sexual violence growing up, like you're not going to be on the same level as somebody that grew up with both parents in the house, grew up, there was no money issues, no drug issues, you know what I mean? Like, it's not the same world. And a lot of people don't realize that. And so for kids especially, they need somebody to advocate for them. And a lot of times people see the things that the kids do and they're just like, well, they're a bad kid and they're not going to amount to anything, so whatever, you know.

So you actually need people to advocate for them who actually care about them. Does it feel weird going from a job like that for seven years to now just being in school and not going to a job like that every day? It is. I tell people, I'm like, it's like being in a toxic relationship. Like you miss it even though you know that you shouldn't miss it Yeah, it's like adrenaline and it's that

Like high Like fast-paced environment And where like things are going on every day And it's like always something new and Like a part of you does miss it But I mean I know it's for the better That I'm not in it so

I'm actually going on a better thing So it is a hard adjustment and it was like I kind of struggled with it for a little bit, but I'm definitely not in that place anymore. What's something you wish that some of the inmates you were supervising knew about you that could have helped, you know, make your job a little bit easier and kind of have them look at you in a different light? I mean, I know that they're not supposed to like know personal things about you,

but a lot of them and especially, like I said, like SMI, they're their center of their world, you know? where it's like we're people too and we come with our own traumas our own baggage and sometimes like we deal with it one day and then we come to work the next day and then we have to deal with you know the comments that you make or the things that you're doing

like you know after my brother passed away it was like like I'm dealing with this and you want me to care about your dinner sack that's missing a cookie Like, it's trivial, but, you know, that's something that they really care about. And so, like, it was hard for me to, to, like, put that away, and they care about what it is in the moment in my job. And it's, like, with any job, you know, you have stuff going on at home and then you go to work and you're like, why do I care about this thing? Like, it doesn't matter because I have all this other stuff going on.

And, like, on some level, it would have been nice. But at the same time, even if they had known, I don't know if they would have necessarily cared. or they could have just been like, well, you know, I had a brother died too, or like, you know, I had all this stuff happened, but like, oh, well. So, I mean, who's to say? Now that there's been a good amount of time that's passed since you left, is there anything you wish you did differently on the job? I definitely wouldn't have tried so hard to prove myself.

Just being there is proving yourself, you know, you signed up for the job. You're there. like you don't need to put it so I didn't need to put it on myself so much that like I had something to prove or that like I had to be this like good co-worker or this like you know to my sergeants I didn't have to like be the yes man for things that you know really didn't matter but because I really just wanted to be reliable I wanted to be a good worker I wanted to I wanted that reputation um and I really didn't have anything to prove. I think it was all in my head that, you know, I was like,

I'm a female and I'm here, and I'm going to, like, do my best and everyone's going to know that I'm, you know, I'm strong and I'm tough, and I don't think I had to prove any of that. I think it was just, you know, that I had it in my head that I had to. Well, J.C., I appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thanks for coming and opening up, and I wish you the best of law school and everything to come in the future. Thank you.