Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Prison Shot Caller — Here’s What That Really Means | Jon Jon Bristow

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

Sit down with a high-level leader of a notorious prison brotherhood. Jon Jon Bristow tells the stories of his life, the decisions and crimes that landed him in prison, and what he did when he got there. From getting recruited to rising through the ranks, Jon Jon gives an inside look at what it takes to be on top when you're locked up. Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com 01:29 Childhood 04:35 Altercation at Hooters 08:09 First time in jail 11:42 How much time he got in prison 12:48 Recruited to a gang 15:56 Ranks, levels and rules 17:32 Crazy stories  21:03 What it’s like to get attacked in prison 22:17 Making money in prison 23:59 High Level Member in the free world 30:20 Back to prison 33:00 Shot Caller 37:06 Getting out of the life 46:31 Rebuilding his life Produced by: https://www.instagram.com/shanedanahy https://www.shanedanahy.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

On today's episode, we have John John Bristow, who I had the pleasure of interviewing during my trip to Arkansas this past August. John John was sentenced to prison, got recruited into the Brotherhood, and ultimately became a high-level leader. In this episode, we hear about the inner workings of the Brotherhood, what his day-to-day life was like and how he was able to exit on his own terms. Remember, everyone, you can grab your official Lockton gear just in time for the holiday season. Use code Lockton at checkout for 20% off your entire order. Yes, for the holiday season, we are giving our viewers and listeners 20% off their entire order. I hope everyone sits back, relaxes, and gets ready to lock in with John John Bristow. John, welcome to Lockton, man.

We're recording right now in our hotel room. We're in Arkansas. We just shot a couple pods with the county sheriff today and Jimmy McGill. and Jimmy McGill is the one that introduced you and I together. Really grateful you came on the show today. You have an incredible story. And I saw your mug shot and it looks nothing like you. If anyone Googles you and takes a time to look you up,

they're going to be shocked when they see who you are today. Yeah, it's crazy. But I guess that just shows like your recovery and how far you've come. So let's start at the beginning of your story. Where are you from? Where'd you grow up? What's kind of like childhood life? Sure.

So I'm originally from a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of life. a small town in New Boston. In Texas, called New Boston. My life was a little bit, I don't want to say easy, but I mean, it was life to me. I grew up with an older brother and an older sister. Between the three of us, I was kind of like, being the youngest, I was kind of the favorite.

So I got showed a little favoritism. And I was really good at school. I was a really good athlete, man. Those are my passions. I do well at both of them. And somewhere, like, early on, my parents got divorced. And when that happened, there was a lot of freedom. There was a lot of freedom for me.

And I still, like, I excelled in sports. I didn't get into a lot of trouble. You know, I had one of those fathers. I don't know if you can relate, but I had one, like, if you didn't do it his way, like, he would be willing to be vicious enough to make sure that you did it right the next time. Like, he was not an easy person to be with. He was my father and he was always there.

My mother, she came down here to Little Rock. And, like, I would come down here to visit her from time to time growing up. And me and my brother and my sister. And somewhere along the way, like, she kind of, like, faded out of the picture a little bit. And my dad, like I said, like he taught things through aggression. Like, it was kind of his way or the highway. So I was kind of like feared into doing the right thing. So like I didn't steer too far into trouble, you know, through my high school years.

And when I was about 13, my mother all of a sudden pops back into the picture with this guy, you know, I guess he was my stepdad or whatever. And when he came in, like they came to take us away. And like I was freaked out, you know, like I knew her because I would come down there for, randomly, you know, growing up, but not enough to really call it a relationship. And when she came to take us away, like, I hated it. Like, they even put, but they had put in a child abuse case on my dad. And, like, I, like, I guess that's the first time that I realized, like, that, you know, that what, maybe the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the,

butt whoopens or whatever, um, was, was wrong, you know, like, uh, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know that that was anybody different from your childhood or anyone else's, like, to me, that was normal. Like, you messed up. you got beat up. And so moving on, I was, you know, I kind of like, I stayed in sports and I always did good at school because I was scared of the consequences that might come with it. And, but I also had this fire inside of me.

Like, I was a bigger guy. And I had, you know, from defending myself and stuff, kind of with my dad, you know, I had developed this, like, I could fight a little bit. You know what I mean? I found out, like, I can protect myself. and so when I was when I was in high school like we're on the state line and I was into I got into an altercation like I was I was out of a hooters and whenever I was outside like this guy walks out you know we'd been in there doing what kids do like we drank a little bit I didn't do too much drugs at this time but he like went to poke in this girl in the face and when he did I decided to intervene, you know, like I decided to get into the mix and try to, I guess, save this later. I don't know what the hell I had going on, you know, but I just like tried to, try to butt into it.

And when I did, like, this guy, I guess he thought he was going to poke me in the face. And I hop back and I kicked him. And when I did, do you know those, like, the yellow things that you pull a car up and park on? Yeah. Like, he slumped into it and hit his head. And dude, when he did, he started, like, bleeding out of his ear. and, you know, it busted him up. And so I just, I take off, man.

And so in the moment I took off, like, all you see on this camera, when they're displaying it, you don't see me, dude, poking his girl, you know, you don't see none of that. All you see is me kick this man in the face, him at this parking curve of me take off. And so, you know, I can remember, knowing that you're about to do some time, you know, you kind of, you kind of, you kind of,

to hear stories, you know what I'm saying, and you're in jail, and people are like, man, like, you know, you're going to the belly of the beast. Like, you got to get your game face on. And so, like, I'm, like, you know, I have lived this kind of like, you know, I'd been into my dad, I've been to some schoolyard fights or whatever, but, uh, from the stories I was hearing, like, it was going to be a whole new level of anything I'd ever experienced. So did you end up getting caught after that incident and arrested? Oh, yeah. And how old are you, like 16, 17? No, I'm in 20s. Oh, you're in your 20s when this happened? And this is the first time you've ever been arrested? Yeah, yeah. And what are you doing for work? Are you working? So yeah, so I was, I'm actually an electrician by trade. I had went to school for industrial

electricity and I had started my path and going into that kind of field, you know, just kind of general maintenance, electrical, HVAC, things like that. Were you on drugs at all at this time? So I had, I had dibbled and dabbled with different drugs, but nothing like hard enough, you know, like nothing that had semi-spirrearly. in a different direction or anything chaotic, like nothing like extreme at that point. So like you were saying earlier, pretty normal child that, despite the trauma with your dad. Yeah, you didn't do drugs in my house. Like my brother did. And like to be honest, like he, the whole child abuse thing kind of stemmed from him. Um, kind of just marijuana, like ordinary kid shit, right? It's, it's available. Like we're in Texas for God's sakes. You know, it's everywhere.

And like my dad, like it was forbidden. Like he, you know, he, he would be to. he would beat him up. Do you think your father loved you? Absolutely. Do you think he knew what he was doing was wrong, though? Yeah, but like I think, you know, like I know my mom was his everything, and when they split up, he kind of ventured off into another woman and, like, like, they clash. So, like, I think a lot of that, that tension that they developed got spiraled down to us because he could,

like, he loved her. Like, he wanted to stick around, but he couldn't just, like, express his true feelings towards us. So it kind of like hit us. Yeah. Like he married that woman twice, you know. Like, so he evidently loved her. So you end up getting arrested. First time I'm ever arrested.

And so like I'm hearing these stories in jail about like, man, you've got to lay your demo down, man. You got to go in there and you got to make an example. Like you can't go in there. No pussy, man. You got to. And so like I'm really not a scary person. Like the person that I looked up to the most and the doored in love would beat me

the fuck up. You know what I'm saying? So I realized that like, like if I. I can endure some of that shit. Like I feel like I'm ready for this, but like, make no mistake, I'm scared. And when they dropped me off, you know, at these gates, like, I'm looking around at all these grown-ass men and shit, you know what I'm saying, tatted up. Like, I didn't have none of that. You don't look the way you do now back then.

No, no, no. I was still, like, I was still a big guy. Like, I was, my dad was a really big guy. So I had that going. And they were telling me, like, they're going to, they were basically telling me the gangs when it's, I didn't even know what a game. was you know what I'm saying like this was for like I'm from a small town man this is foreign to me but uh like uh they kind of were like telling me like they're gonna seek me out like they like you're like you're crying for what they want you're a big big big ass white boy you know like they were

like somebody's going to be looking for me to put me down is the way they expressed it so i go in there and like so i'm looking for this dude just fin to get this demo in like i'm like hey i'm fin to seek this dude out and he's fin to get it today So I go in there and like there's like like I tell no nothing about gangs and like where in this land like the politics are real. Like this table is for this race. This table's for this. This table here.

He's by itself. So when I see this Mexican at this table by itself, like I'm like you know, like he's the one. This is your first day in prison. Oh, like he's going to get this demo. Like he's going to get it. How do you know this is an early 20 year old white kid going in it? This is crazy.

I didn't know what to do that. When I went to prison at that age. So just from the stories, like they said, you lay your demo down, nobody's going to afford you. And I'm believing this, man. I'm naive. I'm gullible. All right.

So you took the bait. You go. What happens? Oh, yeah. So, like, I check him. I see him at this table. And, like, I'm trying to figure out, like, how I'm going to put this demo. Like, how I'm, so I just pushed this dude out of his chair and push his tray off on top of him

and set my shit down. Like, I'm claiming, I'm claiming state to this land. And you have no idea who this guy is. No. No. So this is. like where my first interaction with like a gang is like now I know like this is where I'm going to learn about gangs yeah so this dude was uh he's a shot caller like he's a boss you

didn't know that though fuck no so you fuck with the wrong guy yeah yeah so anyway like just like that like they're on me like a pack of wild dogs you know i mean they're they're they're they're fucking me up man i'm trying to give them hell you know what I'm saying nobody's coming to say nobody even knows who the fuck I am and uh The police or officers, security officers, they come in there, they get me up, they put me in cuffs, they kind of like spray gas, you know, they kind of de-escalate the situation. And they're trying to get me the fuck out of there before anything real happens. And they had me, you know, they had me cuffed up.

And when I'm walking down the hall, they came out of the kitchen and they stuck me through right here with the welding run. And that was like when I knew that this life was real. And so he got me here. and then I spun and he started getting the officer. You know, so like it was a fucked up situation. There were several of them. And they take me to the, they get me to the hole, you know what I'm saying?

And now I'm serving out this sentence. Were you sentenced by this point when this happens? Yeah, yeah, I'm already in prison. How much time to do it? Four years. You have four years for this assault. Yeah. Even though it was kind of like a self-defense a little.

There was no self-defense. But you were defending someone else in a way. Yeah. Yeah. So like they're not sure. Like, if you took that to trial, don't you think you could have won? They would have favored the woman. I don't know that I would ever take any.

thing to trial. No. No. Like, I'm more of a deal taker. You know what? This is like those movies, there's multiple movies, like one shot caller where the guy gets into that, you know, the manslaughter case does time and gets himself in a situation. Great movie. And then the other one is where an army guy gets into a bar fight, goes to prison, his whole life changes after that. And then like the Nicholas Cage movie, Con Air, is similar storyline. You were just a normal dude. Yeah. You were working a regular job. You get into this fight, essentially. Yeah.

And your life changes forever. Yeah. Like a year prior, you never thought you'd be in a gang. I'd never thought I would ever go to prison my entire life. Like, that was never far to the plan. And to be honest with you, I was a really good athlete. I should have played some sort of college baseball. Yeah.

Yeah. That's wild. So where does it progress? Do you get recruited to a gang? What goes? So, yeah. So check this out. So there's a few different gangs.

So, and multiple ones approached me. You know what I mean? They didn't really know that I was just scared to death. They just thought it was a fucking crazy-ass fucking white dude. Like this dude is fucking crazy. He don't give a fuck. The truth is, you know, I was just scared. And so when I came out of the hole, they advised me, can I just talk about, like, exactly what gang it is?

Yeah, tell us everything, yeah. The Aryan Circle approached me and they're like, look, they kind of explain to me, like, you're in this situation now. This is kind of where you're at. This is what needs to happen. And considering the ass weapon I just took, like I'm, like, like, I'm open to this now. So, like, but I'll tell you, like, the kind of, the shit I had to do to become a part of this gang was, um, was kind of, was vicious. Like, I laid a lot of ass whoopens down. I carried out a lot of different, uh, stabbings. You know what I mean? Whatever, whatever, whatever was necessary.

Like, I was just like, I had put myself into this grind mode to say, fuck it, did everything. saying, what do you, what's up? So they, uh, I acquired the name. They call me Plan B. Plan B. Yeah. And so then when I got my patch, it took me a little over a year to get my patch. What does it mean to get a patch?

So it's a tattoo, uh, that represents that I've fully dedicated myself to this gang and I have, except that our responsibility to go with it. I put in the work to become part of this guy. I'm family. I'm now family when I get this patch. And it's a prison patch. Oh yeah. You get it inked on you in prison.

Oh yeah. Did you know what this gang represented at the time you went in and joined it? So yeah, they give me a constitution and it on it like I'm going to get more to that. But it went against everything I've ever fucking lived or learned like a like a truth be told like I'm in a prominent white gang now. And I don't even like I'm okay with black guys. I'm okay with Mexican. Like I don't give a fuck about none of that, Ian. So you didn't believe in their values, but you were looking at them maybe for protection in a way?

I guess you could say that. I had forced myself, I feel like, to kind of believe some of. of this horse shit that they were telling me. And I don't know it, I don't really know if it was out of fear, if I just want to be a part of something in this time that I'm about to do, or if I was just fucking scared, man. And four years when you reflect that back on, it's not a lot long time. No, no, it was to me, I'm a young man. It was half my guy, to me it was half my fucking adult life.

Yeah, when I got three years, I felt the same way, but I wasn't hopping out the door to join a prison gang. No, no, I mean, I guess my, it's just what it was. Dude, you were literally like a movie plot. It's really insane, but it's good that we're hearing this perspective. Yeah. Because you put yourself, you made that choice to go into that position. Yeah.

Because in a sense, you needed them because you, the anger, you like took a bat to a hornet's nest, essentially, because the Mexicans do not play around. And what's so crazy is I'm pretty easy to get along with. Had I just fucking vibed, I probably would have done just fine. Like, after my next trips to prison, like I realized like the foolishness that went all in, all in, all that. But like at this time though, Ian, I'm all in. Like, I'm all in. Like, the gang that I'm affiliated with, like, there's levels to this shit. You know what I mean? There's

fucking ranks. There's different tattoos I can earn. Like, I'm all in at this point. Like, how do I get this new tattoo that's exclusive? Yeah. Like, there's not a lot of people that wear some of the brands that I'm, that I had. You know what I mean? Like, and the work that I put into it, like, I had dedicated my life to this shit. At Hyundai of Glendale, Lisa New,

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Now, when you said they gave you a constitution, like to explain everything? Is that a piece of paper? It's kind of like the rules and the guys. guidelines that we live by. And what are, what are those guidelines? Oh, shit. You're going to get me hurt. So, basically, it's kind of saying like that I will never live outside of my race.

I will never marry outside of my race. That we're building this thing for the generation of white people. Like, it's fucking racist, Ian. Did you know at the time it was racist? Absolutely. So what do you think propelled you in your mind to still carry through with it, to still join them? I think they made me feel like I was a. part of them. You know what I'm saying? And I think more so they made me feel like I

fucking needed them. Do you think that carries back to not getting that feeling from your father and your parents in general? I never thought of it that way, but probably so. Like these people, like, so my dad's idea of love was like when I fucked up kicking my ass, you know? And like I guess that's how I distinguished like that he cared about me. Like he was, he cared enough to notice me to fuck me up. And these guys embraced me in and protected me. So maybe so. You were looking to like attach on that. first thing that wanted you a part of them, like made you feel important. Yeah, I guess so. And it just happened to be a white supremacist gang in prison. Yeah, totally fucked up. So what are like

some of the stories, the crazy stories from your time in this gang? So most of it is, and this is going to be really shitty, but a lot of it was, uh, was a lot of like riding against rival white gangs. Oh, so it's white versus white. And a lot of, in a lot of times. And a lot of times, And even in my transition to other prisons, it was kind of the same. You know what I mean? Like this group stuck to this group. This group stuck to this group. And all the groups are fighting over power within their own race.

Like it was kind of like it was kind of fucked up. Yeah. You know, like, um, like I can remember, uh, I can't even tell you. Like I've shut it off. Like a lot of people that I've stabbed. You know what I mean? For like no apparent reason. Like just like, uh, me and you're getting along and we're fine, right?

and we're actually chilling. You're a white guy. I'm like, whatever. I'm allowed to talk to you. We're kicking it. And then one day they're like, hey, man, he owes some money, man. There's a green light on him, which means take him out. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah, how does a prison stabbing go down? When someone greenlights someone, it comes from your chain of command in this gang. They tell you what to do. Walk me through from the time you get that green light. Absolutely. So whenever somebody tells me, hey, like, there's a green light on this guy. you need to take care of this business, man. Okay?

Like, there's not really a timeline. It's just the first time that I'm going to catch up with you. You know what I mean? And generally, you know how you can, you've been to prison? You know how you can kind of feel that tension. So they kind of know it's coming and they're trying to avoid me. So it's not like it's going to go down perfectly where I just wind up in the same

situation as you. Like, I'm going to have to seek you the fuck out. So generally, like, I'm trying to find a way if you don't live in my housing unit. I'm trying to find a way to sneak over there. And a lot of times I told you I got a maintenance background. So I got the keys to the Kenan. So that even makes me more value. So I'm trying to maneuver over there so I can get this, so I can stick this shit in you, man. And just like that, like, I'm rewarded. And that, you know what I'm saying? That feels good. It's a lot better than a asswhip than I've been taken. And what do you use for the, what was your choice to make the shank or the,

the, the, the rod or whatever? So generally nails. Nails. Yeah, nails. Yeah, nails. I don't know. A lot of times because I worked in the electric apartment, we could file down electrical boxes in a unit or metal, so they have a casing that goes around it that kind of like slides in and it covers what they call the junction box, and we can file those down and they make like a one that you can hold in your hand. Because what you don't want to do is lose it.

So generally it's like taped up or something so you can get a good grip on it. Now, are these people dying or just like a... Generally no. Okay. Yeah, generally no. But are you okay with the fact that you could have killed them in that moment when you're committing the stabbing? Like, are you aiming to kill? So no.

I would say no. Like if it was so to happen, it would have been what it was. But I was too scared to not carry out this green light more than I would have like fuck this dude. You know what I mean? Like in my mind, I'm lugging myself up. Man, this dude owes this motherfucker. He owes my fucking bro some money. You know what I mean?

Like he's got to get it. Yeah. Like you fuck my bro over. Like this is at this point in time, these are my blood. These are my people. you know what I mean and whatever I got to do to to protect this family and and you can't like you can't get away from this shit no matter what unit where you go like they're there deep and so like I'm fixing I'm fixing I'm fixing to handle that business were you ever stabbed yourself in prison yeah and

what's that like what was like the first time you were ever stabbed in prison so I told you about the first one like I kind of like I didn't even really see it coming like I had never had this kind of issue before but like I told you he had a welding rod the middle of his finger you know I'm saying. The only reason I know that it's because they showed it to me, or they didn't show me they told me about it. But I, like, happened to see him come out of, like, the kitchen. And when I did, I turned it. And when I turned it, I got a hole in each side of my chest where it just went through. Wow. So it wasn't like a life-threatening injury. It was just one of those, like, freak of the moment where I happened to turn and he stopped me. But then, like I said, he started stabbing the guard. Are you bleeding a lot when this is happening? Not that particular one. Now, I have. Now, in this gang, are you guys getting orders to attack guards at all, or guards like a no-hit policy? How does that work? No, absolutely not. So I never got anything on a guard, but definitely. So guards are, this could happen to a guard? Oh, it happens all the time, yeah.

And what about corruption with the guards working with the gang? Are there things like that that are happening? Yeah, absolutely. Generally, drugs, cigarettes, you know, things like that, phones, the same thing. I think probably pretty much in every prison. And these gangs operate kind of like a cartel in a way where they make money, I'm assuming, right? Or is it not motivated by money? Some of them down there in the region I'm talking about like the Hispanics.

You know what I mean? They kind of rule all as far as trafficking things inside of a prison. And a lot of times the loads get moved by the other races, if that makes sense. Now, are you guys like checking paperwork? Is there a process that, like, do they do background on you to make sure? Yeah, you have to fill out for an NCIC check. Two other inmates. Yeah, before, before, yeah, I mean, you've got to think they have unlimited, especially

like you just talked to a guard, something like that. They have unlimited access and resources to look you up and to see what you're about in that world, yeah. Yeah. And if you try to infiltrate, infiltrate this gang and you've been in some, you've been doing some slick shit in that world, then, I mean, you're going to get the business. Do they have good time in the state? Yeah.

So I'm assuming you lost all. your good time. Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't. Do you ever reflect back on that? Like, you got a four-year sentence. You probably could have got out way earlier than what you ended up doing. So, yeah, yeah, I never got, like, in the end, Ian, like, the last time, like, my whole mind frame had changed. So, like, good time became a priority. But before, like, you know, home was going to be there, Ian, you know what I'm saying? And to be honest, as I transitioned to different parts of my life, Like the situation in the in the in the the man I was in there was way better than the man I was out there like I wouldn't shit in the world You know after after after those prison trips like I could walk the yard and fucking like I'm an accomplished man in there

Yeah like those tattoos I told you I got a few of them you know what I mean when you got out and you're still for the first time and you're still a part of this gang what are your responsibilities in the free world as a gang member so I actually um I I so they got these meetings and they caught in and my gang they called them church and I would I would actually host them like I had moved up in the ranks even in the world and I had moved to Arkansas and they call that an OS state which is which is out of state because it originated in Texas and I would host them and I was what they called a deputy dog I was the highest person around in Arkansas that was actually in the free world like the higher ranks generally are incarcerated because they put in a different level of work or even in the federal penitentiary but like I would host these churches.

We would collect dues to kind of like and kind of help bros and shit like that that are locked up Or to help their families but like make no mistake and this is not a fucking well-organized anything like these motherfuckers do meth and drugs and that's all the fuck they care about So there's these dudes and shit. No for whatever reason they can't pay this little $12 a month. They get beat the fuck up like it's fucking chaos Are you paid for your position? No. So what do you have to make? What are you doing for work and money? So I have to work. Like it's still, like I told you, like I'm good at working with my hands. Like I've always carried that out. Like, I think the position's more for bragging rights.

You know what I'm saying? Like I put in the word to make it up here. Like you got, like you can't. A lot of the positions are voted in. You know what I'm saying? They can vote you in, vote you out. And generally always, you know what I mean? I got the leg up.

Why do you think you stayed a part of it even once you finally got free? Like I know what your motivation was to get into it while you're in jail. but when you got out, why still stick with it? I think at that time, Ian, I had believed it. I had become victim of it. And like this had become who I was. You know what I mean? Like this is now who I identify with because at that time, like I truly believe,

Ian, I felt like I belonged. Like for the first time in my life, like, I'm a part of this. You know what I'm saying? This is the one thing I've earned. You can't take it away from me. And how's your relationship with your parents? Do they know what you're involved with? Oh, yeah.

And what do they say? What's their reaction? So when I was deep in this, like, they hated it. Like, they fucking, because like, no, like, I was, like, I don't have parents that would sign off on any of this shit, I'm telling you. Like, they've never heard most of this shit in depth. Well, most parents wouldn't. Yeah. Um, well, like, I've met some parents that, like, they glorify their kid for fucking being in the area circle.

It's sickening. But my parents are polar opposite, man. They just, they raised me to, to say, yes, sir. No, sir, yes ma'am, no, ma'am. Open the door for old people. They raised me with genuine Southern qualities, you know what I mean? That we pride ourselves on, and, like, I lived against those, those, that, all that. Like, and I think, like, I held some serious resentments towards myself, so, like, I just was fixing to be the image of whatever the fuck somebody wanted me to be, you know what I'm saying, so I could blend the fuck in, man.

How do you end up going back to prison? Okay, so, like, after I get it. it out like I'm worked to the fullest like my mind is no longer belongs to me you know what I mean I'm literally an image that I that I have created um never was like a just terribly violent person you know and now I was that was fucking I was crazy and so whenever uh I lost my train of thought whenever I was whenever I was whenever I was in prison like um I could I could I could I could fit in like I could be this man like I was the fucking man you know and then I go in this world and uh like come to find out like nobody's taking this fucking man seriously like you know what I mean

so like the the I get I got into drugs you know I'm saying like that that was my escape at this point like I can't even look at my like I literally fucking hated myself like everything that I was taught as a child this person that I was supposed to grow up and be like I was so far fucking away from that like that I had literally like like at this point like I just I just wanted to numb at all I didn't want to remember this shit that I did against my own will I didn't want to remember these uh these riots these retaliations uh trying to act like that I was I absolutely loved this shit like this yeah you know what I mean like I hit like this is the shit like so I got deep into some drugs man what kind of drugs are we talking about so at first it started out with meth methamphetamines

that's a big thing in the gang that I was affiliated with. What did that feeling do for you when you tried it the first time? What would you compare it to that feeling? Fuck, to be honest, like it was like a rush, like a wide-await, like a, just, like, just happy. Like, I would sit there and just talk and chill. Like, I didn't have to, I didn't have to be crazy, you know what I mean? There was these fucking loose-ass women there were around, you know? It was fun at first.

Like, it was enjoyable. I didn't really have a lot But like the people around me Like I had been to prison I'm sleeved the fuck I got them all over me You know what I mean? I'm known for for For

Being this animal really You know what I mean The way I look at it now But like like like This fucking crowd that I was now Like hanging out with the world Fucking thought I was the shit And I believed it

And what happens next? You get going down the drug use Yeah so now I'm using drugs faith Like I'm still trying to work and shit and if if a if a if a job got you know a few hours or 20 hours a week from me like they fucking lucked out. It's hard to work when you're on Yeah like yeah like I'm I'm literally like and then like uh I get laid off and fucking want to talk foul to them like I didn't have a good reputation and so like naturally like uh like I don't have a way to to fuel these drugs like so I start robbing stealing whatever I got to do

and I mean it caught up with me and that's when you end up getting a longer jail sentence for that So yeah so that's when I Is that the mug shot? I went back to prison I said that we're way away from that Oh wow so you've had quite a journey Yeah so I went to prison again

And this time I was only gone for a couple years And are you welcomed open arms by the brotherhood Yeah so I'm from Texas And I come in there to Arkansas And this gang like they already know who the fuck Own it all Pay off your home travel for life, drive a Ferrari.

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celebrating its 40th anniversary. You win? Details at yamava.com must be 21-20. Please gamble responsibly. Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro. Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. I am. they're like, all right, man, and like, they're embraced with open arms. Like, they're shooting a sack down the hall for me.

You know what I mean? Like, so, like, I'm living it up in, like, Arkansas. Like, so we got air conditioning. And we're in a whole new population of prison now. Like, we're fucking, it's easy living. Like, I don't mind fucking up here. You know what I'm saying? Like, you get in trouble, you get out.

You get in trouble. You get in. So, like, it's a smaller area. So if you fuck up, somebody else is going to fuck up and bond you out. And you're going to be right back out there doing your thing. And so, like, it was an easier place to do time. Yeah. How is a gang member treated when he first gets to a new prison who's already established, like yourself?

Well, they'll bring me, like, as soon as they find out who I am, which a lot of people are already going to know him. And I had no idea who they are. Like, they're just going to know who I am. And, man, they welcome with me open arms, man. Hey, man, give me, you know, food or sack, whatever, cigarettes, whatever, you know what I'm saying, whatever's going on at that prison. And, like, it made me, you know, like, I felt like I was the man. But do you also have a target on your back by other people? In Arkansas prisons?

Yeah, and any different prison you go to I guess But not necessarily I didn't have a reputation To really put a target on my back Like I like if you wanted to go home I wasn't a fucking dude to mess with Like I'm fissing to fuck your time up

Like I don't give a fuck if we're the day I don't care where we're at Like we're going in Just because they're going home Yeah Not necessarily because they're going home soon But like Like if people

I had the reputation that if you're gonna get If you're gonna get sideways with me I don't give a damn where we're at Like this is fin to happen Like I'm not the dude to say Hey man when we get back to the barracks No I'm like we're in this fucking hallway. Like, what's up?

It's go time. Yeah, we're going to jail. Now when the cops are asking you, or like the correctional officers, counselors, case managers, are you getting affiliated? Now you have to say you are. So they strip you butt naked and like they start taking pictures and they're like, what's set you represent? They already, like, it's

all on file. They already know what's up. Like, there's no way I'm getting out of this shit. I got the tattoos and the match your profile. Like, it's what's up? Were you proud to wear that tattoo? At that point in time, hell yeah. What do you think it represented to you? I guess unity, loyalty, solidarity, like, you know, brotherhood, like all that. So how does it work with commingling with other races? Are you allowed to even be seen

talking to another race or no? So you can. Like, they definitely do business together, but like sitting down and, you know, in real prison politics, sitting down, like, we're not fint to eat, we're not fend to spread, we're not fend to share cups, none of that shit. Now, would you consider yourself a shot caller by this point? I don't know about a shot caller, but I don't know. I don't definitely was someone, like I was someone that if something's going down, I'm going to know that information. So it's kind of like a, and the feds they would call that like a shot call. Okay.

Yeah. I know, I know it doesn't sound like a great title. I could pass things down to people to definitely have something harmed under you. But also, if you pass something to me, I'm going to harm these people too. No, are people coming to you asking for permission to say touch someone else's sally or anything like that? Oh, yeah, most certainly. And I also was one that would serve out disciplinaries.

Like, if you fucked up within the gang, like, like me and, whoever or I'm the one that's pushing that issue to come get you taken care of. Not eliminated from the game, but to let you know that I see you fucking up and I'm not going for it. So what are some of like the biggest issues or fuckups you could do as a gang member? And what's like the retaliation for those fuckups? So one of the major ones, and this is going to sound fucking crazy is drugs. Like it's crazy. Everybody's doing them, including me when I'm serving out of disciplinary for somebody doing fucking drugs.

You know what I'm saying? It's really chaotic. But like more people, more people were scared to like confront me or to say something to me because of my status. So, but yeah, generally a lot of time it's for drugs. Doing drugs or selling drugs? Doing drugs. Like selling them is completely permitted. It makes no sense.

So you find out someone in your gang is doing drugs. Yeah. What's your action? To develop somebody that can come over there and to serve them. Serve them with that, what the beating? Yeah, fuck them up. Yeah, whoop their ass, you know, get their attention. And generally it's two on one.

Like it's not a fair, fair situation. But they're still a part of the gang. Absolutely. Now, are there scenarios where someone does something really bad where you guys have to like burn off their tattoo, their symbol, their patch? Yeah, so like, yeah, absolutely. It's like in the movies. Yeah, so absolutely.

So they generally cover them up, but I can't tattoo. So we got to come up with another means. I've definitely. So you hold someone down to cover up their tattoo? Generally, they'll do it willingly. Really? Yeah. After they got beat up or something?

Well, it would be like either you're going to remove this or there's two ways out. You know, one is you take this out the body. Well, we take you out. Simple as that. And that automatically removes you from the gang? Yeah. By just, so could you have went up at that time say, hey, I'm done or are you too deep in? So I have heard of that kind of thing happening.

And but to be honest with you, like, I didn't want that at that point. Maybe I could. I don't know, but that's the furthest thing from my fucking mind. I'm just trying to keep going in the direction I'm going and exist in this world that I fit in in. But do the other gang members know your higher-ups, whoever you reported to, know that you're using at this point, too? I don't know, probably. Because you were breaking the rules. Absolutely.

But doesn't that seem a little bit hypocritical that you were calling out on others? It's completely hypocritical and it makes no sense. But, I mean, you know how it is. It's like, I don't want to say like, like I had put in my work in. I had developed this person who I am, and they would, like, talk about trying to do a disciplinary on me. But, like, at this point, they're like, you go deal with that big motherfucker and tell him what he's doing is fucked up, you know? And you're the boss, essentially. I'm one of, I'm definitely one not to, high in the rankings, yeah.

I'm definitely one not to be messed with. Wow. So out of, when all of a sudden done, how much prison time have you done? About eight. Eight years. And out of that eight years, how long were you gang affiliated for? The entire time. The entire time.

Yeah, even, so I wrote that out the entire time, maybe a little over 8, Ian. But I wrote it out the entire time. And during the last time that I was incarcerated, I could, like, I think they could feel the presence. Like, something was different. Like, I've got fucking books. I'm reading. I'm staying in my fucking, I'm staying to myself. They're coming and telling me shit I'm not interested.

You know, like they could feel the presence of something different. Why? What triggered that? Mentally. So, so like, so when I got out the time before I got locked up again, like, I have, man, I'm in my 30s, man. I have nothing to show for it, but put these fucking tattoos, you know what I'm saying, a bunch of fucking soot and burnt fucking shit, burnt fucking shit, burnt spoons. Like, that's all I have. Like, I've committed my entire life to some shit that, like, I mean, I've done all this crazy shit. But when I transform and try to go into the world, like, I can't go in there and tell this dude that I'm trying to get a job. Hey, man, I ain't never let nobody fucking hoe me out.

Like, yeah, I walked the yard. I'm the fucking man in prison and he's going to look at me and be like, yeah, dude, fucking 15 bucks an hour. I got you. Like, so everything I had done up into this point fucking made no sense. And so now I'm aging, maturing. and I'm realizing, like, I have completely fucked my life up, man. Like, I have made a mess of the one life that I get to live. And how old are you when you had this realization?

34. Would you say that was, like, the lowest point of your life? I don't know, man, about the lowest. It's just when I finally started. Like, maybe to me it was. I'd been in a lot of worse situations, but I had finally started to realize that, like, I'm going to die. Like, I'm either going to fully commit to, like,

so now I'm, like, trying to balance in my mind, whether I have one foot in, one foot, because, like, I had started entertaining the idea of doing different. You know what I mean? I had. And I'm going to back up a little bit. You talked about Jimmy McGill. So, like, I had got out this last time, and I'm fully still representing this gang, right?

I had gotten married to this chick kind of like, because I was fixing to go back for a little time. And, like, so we're married. It was going to be, like, a parole plan. And, like, I, like, so, like, I had, like, met Jimmy, fully committed. and my father passed and so I was a full-fledged opiate addict at this point like fennel heroin

and those kind of things and I was like and I overdosed bad I've overdosed several times but this was the one that should have took me out and so like

anyway this chick she leaves me on the floor like I'm a big guy and we're living in this like really ratty shitty shitty fucking trailer house man and I fall in the bathroom floor

in between the toilet and the fucking cat and it wideed up and uh probably with a you know like shit like uh and uh she leaves me there man and she goes to jimmy's house and like jimmy and me were really cool like and uh he he had tried to help me get clean and knew i was kind of messing up but like you know jimmy he's got a big heart he cared about me this is while jimmy's in his position with the state no this is this is way before this but he was clean by this point hell yeah yeah yeah and like we like i liked him like i really respected Jimmy in the movement he was heading towards and uh so he go he she's like he was like

where's john john you know like he even though he knew i was in addiction i was always his guy like he always made me like i i really looked up to jimmy and uh oh he was like where's john john she's like oh he fucking overdeating whatever she said you know and he was like what the fuck so him and this other dude come over there to where i'm at and for whatever reason i and like something woke me up before jimmy got there but my legs let my legs hit cool quit working my body like was was like just fucked and i've crawled army crawled into the living room and uh it turns out like my body had died and uh for whatever reason i woke up but my body had released the toxins into it to like to seize my muscles up i don't really know what they were

but my kidneys is shut down and release those toxins and so jimmy comes in there he picks me up he throws me in the car and takes me to the hospital and he was like man if you don't do something and like you're gonna die in your addiction. And like it had never dawned on me to that moment that this shit was gonna fucking kill me, man. But you didn't want to make a change though in that moment? Not in that moment, no. You still continue down and went back to jail.

Yeah, yeah, I did. Like I said, I was already facing a little bit of time. And Jimmy had tried to advocate for me. And, you know, of course, I didn't, this is messed up. This is my second time down into Arkansas. And anyway, they did. decided that they were just going to give me 90 days in county jail. They're going to let me back out, and I was going to do my thing.

Well, I done got married, like I told you, and I fucking smuggle a bunch of Xanaxes in the county jail. You know, I'm prepared for this little stay, and I slept for a while. But, like, even then, like, in the back of my mind, like, I knew that nothing was going to be different. Like, I was still obsessing over getting high. Like, I, you know, like, I was getting close that day. I was getting excited because I knew I was going to go out there and catch a sack and do what I do. And, but after that moment, like, the conversation with Jimmy things were never the same, man. That, like, I did, like, that.

It, like, sparked in the back of your mind that you wanted to change. Like, maybe I fucking could, man. Give you a little bit of hope. Like, maybe I wasn't such a piece of shit, like, that I saw myself as, you know? Like, maybe I was a decent human being because this guy who has no reason to fuck with me whatsoever. Like, I'm definitely not on his playing field at this point. in my life, like saw something in me that not even I could see. When you truly committed to the change and you, and you truly focused on getting clean,

how hard was it to convince other people, especially with your reputation as a gang member? So by this time, like I had fully, like, I had fully decided like I wanted to do something different. No, well, let's back up. So I get out, I try to go, I get out like I told you, and I still got high. And then I tried to go to a treatment center and I go to this treatment center and they're like, come back in a week, it looks like you're serious. And I'm like, what the fuck? So I pull over and I try to get on my GPS and put it in to go back home. I had got a little hotel.

Actually, I didn't end. My mother got it for me. I didn't have a fucking thing at this time of my life. And so I go to get this hotel, man, and go back to the hotel in a fucking cop. Like, I guess God, whatever, you know, put this cop right there because I was fixing to do a shot. And, like, I can't even handle them at this point, you know? Like, I'm ODing all the time because I'm not used. using like i like man i don't want to fucking use you know i'm trying to like space it out instead of

just going all in and uh anyway um i get i get a cop gets behind me and they fucking like come up they immediately run my name and he comes up he puts the piss he puts a pistol in the car puts in my face don't fucking move you know and i'm like look dude the drug and i'm telling me the drugs are he gets the drugs they arrest me and like it was just this fucking release you know that I that this this is this may be over you know this may be over that you think that saved you that last arrest so yeah yeah I haven't used since that day wow yeah and what year was this how old are you so December 1st of 2019 2019 yeah and but you still had the gang initial or the gang attachment full fledge full fledge how do you get out of that so so when I went to prison the last

time like I told you that's when they could sense something's different. I was like man I'm trying to do some shit different and and of course like Ian they thought I was full of shit. Hell I didn't even know if I was serious man and I had like started separating myself like I'm not volunteering like I told you they call me plan B I'm volunteering for this aggressive ass shit at one point and now I'm deliberately telling them like I don't want fucking nothing to do with this shit right now like I'm trying to do something I'm reading I'm catching my bunk I'm staying to myself I'm not over there talking shit acting a fool like I'm literally trying to figure out what the fuck is going on in my own mind.

So what's that first conversation with the higher up son? So honestly, Ian, I never even had that conversation. You never had to? No, no, I haven't. So I guess they expected me to get out and do what I always did. And maybe one day I'm going to have to have that conversation, Ian. I don't fucking know. You know what I mean?

I'm ready for it. Are you afraid? Nah, no. No, Ian, like whatever happens to me, dude, I fully fucking. can deserve it. You know what I mean? Like I committed to some shit I should have never done in the first place, but all the souls and shit that I fucked their life up. Like, like, and I could tell it was never for me, Ian, because I'm the type of dude, like, I would beat these dudes senseless and fuck them up and then secretly I'm trying to pull up on them until I'm sorry,

you know what I'm saying? So are you like on the run from this gang right now? What's a relationship? Like I'm on Facebook, I put it where I work, you know what I'm saying? I think that like, uh... Have people reached out? No, the gang? No, the ones that have like, uh, have tried to separate themselves too or they have been X, which they call an X, and they have, like, been served or fucked up and they took their way out. But, uh, no, like, I guess, like, one day it may hit me one day it won't. But whatever does, you know, I'm fully prepared for it. I probably am on some list somewhere.

Are you, like, looking around, like, behind your back all the time? No. Like, you have an X on your back? No. No. If it's meant to happen, it will happen. I mean, I can't just like, I can't avoid it. I can't run from it.

I'm not going to I'm not facing to fucking live my life like that like I'm fully I'm fully responsible for everything I've done you know what I mean and if I have to pay for it then that's just what it's going to be I mean maybe the universe is looking out for you too maybe in that sense because you've had this realization yeah what have you been able to recreate and build for yourself since you've had this change so man when I got out like uh like I didn't know what I wanted to do right so I get a job my brother like uh like uh like Like he's a good dude. Like he's, he's got a similar journey.

He's just never been to prison. He never been in trouble. Never had to endure any of this kind of life. He's not a, he's not aggressive person whatsoever. But he was a director for a treatment center, right? And like, I thought like, hey man, like, I want to try to help people. Like, what the fuck I can do to help them at this point? I don't know.

But I know that I could help. Like, they were trying to build this treatment center and branch out and get new homes for recovering addicts to recover in, right? Well, that's one thing I'm good at you. I told you, it's building things. Like, so I snuck my way in as a maintenance, man, you know? And they weren't paying, like, you know, I used to hate myself for, for one, for supposed to be in this person, like, this legacy or whatever, like, this person in my dad's image that I obviously did not reach, that I hated myself.

And, like, I think that that kept me out there a long time is that kind of like, should have could have, what, I should have been this, I should have done this. But for the first time in my life, man, I realized like that, like, I am who I am. And that's all I am. You know what I mean? If I may never be shit more than this maintenance man at this recovery center making $12 an hour, that may not be who I'm supposed to be. But for the first time in my life, I was all right with that. I didn't have to be the man.

I didn't have to be the coolest kid on the block. You know what I mean? I understood the difference between respect and fear. You know what I mean? Like, nobody ever respected me. They all feared me. You know what I mean? Nobody really wanted to fuck with me.

they were just afraid if they didn't like I would fucking do something to them like to be in my circle was a safe place to be and so like I got this job making 12 hours an hour and he called me into my office one on his office one day and he was like what the fuck do you want to do and I was like man I want to be a counselor and he was like okay so he um he let me kind of run some groups and it turns out like the things I could say like people relate to naturally like I could I could tell the truth about my story and everybody had this similar vibe or similar thing going on and at this time like the only real clean time I had was the last time I was incarcerated you know what I mean but there was something about that man there was something about the energy that feedback then my aha moments that I'm seeing

them get that made me want to like even press further so um it gave you purpose essentially at that moment I think so man and they allowed me to get my CIT now he didn't let me do too many groups and shit because like I tell you like he needed a maintenance man that's primarily what he wanted And so at that moment, one of my real good friends, man, his name is Russell Boyd. He's a peer here in the state of Arkansas. Really solid dude. Got a crazy story, too. But he introduced me to my current boss named B.J. Brady.

And I told her like, hey, man, I'm a CIT, which, I mean, I don't know, like, really what the fuck that was at this point because I just taught a group every now and then. And she's like, oh, okay, well, I really don't need that, but I need somebody that can relate to guys. and I was like, okay, cool. So I was working 40 hours a week at this current job I had being the maintenance man. And then I also worked 40 hours for BJ on the weekends and two days late at night. And so, like, I was working all the time. And whenever I did that, like I didn't miss work. You know, I was such a shitty fucking employee in.

Like, the least I could do is just show up for these folks at this point of my life. Like, I have nothing to do. I have nobody who really gives a fuck about me. me, you know, like I have truly burned every fucking bridge out there. Yeah. And nobody's taking me seriously. My mother, my brother's not real sure about me, you know. And so all that disappointment that I laid down for so long, I'm trying to do something

different. And so at this point, like, my first fucking goal, like, I'm just going to show up to work. Like, I'm going to be there on time every day. And the more BJ got to know me, like, I had no idea, like, what, like, this woman has seen, you know, that's her job. Like, she owns a re-entry center. I guess I should have told you that, like, helping men who are currently in prison. to find a new way of life.

You know what I'm saying? Without all this fucking drama and chaos. Like it makes no sense to go to prison that I can't stay the fuck out. And I and I hated like I hated prison. Like I, anybody who's been to prison remembers the feeling when they go and the feeling when they get out. You know what I'm saying? And that feeling when they got out trumps that feeling when I went.

So I knew I didn't even like prison. But yeah, I kept going. And so she started investing in me, man. Like she gave me a few responsibilities. Like taking these. guys to meetings. She gave you the second chance you needed. Yeah, man. She saw something in me that I had, that nobody else did, man. And sometimes that's all we need. Yeah. Someone that sees a higher purpose

for us and can help carry us to the next level. Yeah, absolutely. She, I mean, like, I've been there for three years now. And I actually, at one point, like, she offered me a job there full time to where I could work there in the week and I did not have to, uh, that she has an outside agency for mental health and for substance abuse counseling there and they were interested in me but my loyalty like I pride myself on this loyalty I didn't want to leave Terrell who owned the business my brother was a director at but I eventually um made that move man it was the best decision I ever made have you have been able to rebuild relationships with your family oh yeah oh yeah so like so my dad never got to see me clean like he died when I was in full fled addiction but everybody in my family like they

They will reach out to me. They're like, comment on my Facebook. You know what I'm saying? And they, like, they respect me as a man. Like, I don't, like, man. Ian, I was so fucked up, like, out there. Like, I jump in the car with my mother and, like, I'm 30 years old, man. And we pull up to a drive-through.

I'm looking at her. Like, hey, man, you're my mom. You're supposed to catch this bill. Like, that's the fucking scum I was, man. You know what I mean? I didn't even have money in my pocket. But I'm such a piece of shit. I thought she was responsible for this chick because she gave births me.

No. Like, what does it feel like to have stability now for probably a good portion of your life that, because you missed out all those years of not having any stability? Yeah. What's a feeling like for you? It's crazy. But just like if you understand anything like the disease of addiction, man, like I assess over everything. So I'm able to get the job done.

Like I just apply it to a different area of my life, man. Like I make sure that all bills are paid on time because I don't want this fucking house that I work so hard to get tucking from me, you know? Like I got a truck payment now and I definitely don't want to lose. that because the truck I had when I got out was fucked up you know what I'm saying like I came from a truck that was a little too close to a fire and got melted to a brand new truck you know you got a reason to live now yeah yeah and and and like like man I had to say like I never thought that the journey just just getting off drugs and doing what I'm supposed to be doing as a human being and a man like where it would take me like I got like I got I'm married to a woman who fully loves me with two

wonderful kids that like you know i would have screwed their fucking life up in normal circumstances like if i thought if i found a a woman like uh that's that's my fucking house you know what i mean like back then like i'm i'm my idea of love was like if i cuss this like i'm fin to cuss this chick out man and i'm bitch you fucking and if she would say no please don't go like then i felt like she loved me you know what I'm saying like that's how I was that's how like could feel her love but if she let me go and I didn't have nowhere to go like get the fuck out like I was like damn she don't give a fuck about me instead of just saying I love you and her saying love me I love you too like that's how I had that's how I needed her to show me love like I was completely fucked up Ian how do you

how do you prevent your kids from going down that same path you took man I hope I hope they don't but like I'm a firm believer like that a part like we're human beings man man, we're full of mistakes. We make them on a daily basis. And I had to allow them that same journey that I don't want them to in. Like for nothing in this world, I wanted to make anything or have to go through life or to be a part of some of the shit that I was a part of.

But I have to understand it's a possibility. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you could go back to your teenage self and sit down with yourself and just talk, speak openly to that teenage self. What would you say? Don't go to fucking Hooters.

Hooters caused it all? Yeah. That's where the whole thing initiated. of hooters. No, but realistically, like, man, that, like, that I was worked at the entire time. You know what I mean? And that, like, if I put the energy into something, then I will see good results. If I have a bad shit, I'm going to see some bad results, you know? But some people, like, and I hate to say that, like, that they will, like, and I talk this to some of our guys, like, at the re-interest center, like, the, the reason they stay in there is because

it's hard for a person like me to exist in this world after I've been the man in this other world because I may never be what I was in prison in this real world. Nobody may ever give me the respect I had in there. That was never a fucking guarantee. But if I never had to walk in those prison walls again, like it's a fucking win. John, John, thank you so much for coming here today, taking the time out of your day to come and talk to me. You have an incredible story. It's not one that we've really talked about on the podcast with your deep roots to the gang affiliation and you know I wish you nothing but the best and excited to keep in touch with you and I'm glad Jimmy introduced us and you definitely have a positive message and I think the viewers

are going to appreciate hearing your story. All right.