Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Prosecutor at the Suffolk County DA's Office — Here's the Truth About the Justice System | Chase Brown

Episode Date: July 23, 2026

Chase Brown followed his father's footsteps into law went to law school and became a prosecutor at the Suffolk County District Attorney's office. For three years he prosecuted cases dealt with victims and defendants navigated bail issues and a backlogged court system picked juries and offered plea deals that shaped people's lives. Then he left to become a private criminal defense attorney at his father's firm — putting him on the opposite side of everything he had spent three years doing. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, Chase shares the complete truth about what the justice system really looks like from the inside — the cases he will never forget the problems with bail the issues with the jury system the backlog destroying the courts and what working as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney actually revealed about the system he operates in every single day. _____________________________________________ #lawyer #justicesystem #truecrimecommunity _____________________________________________ Thank you to CASH APP for sponsoring this episode: Download Cash App Today: https://click.cash.app/ui6m/6pao71et #CashAppPod Cash App is a financial services platform, not a bank. Banking services provided by Cash App's bank partner(s). Prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC. Cash App Visa® Debit Flex Cards issued by Sutton Bank, Member FDIC, and The Bancorp Bank, N.A., pursuant to a license from Visa U.S.A. Inc. See terms and conditions for the Sutton prepaid card, Sutton debit flex card, and Bancorp debit flex card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block, Inc. brand. Visit cash.app/legal/podcast for full disclosures. _____________________________________________ Connect with Chase Brown: https://michaelbrownlaw.net/chase-brown/ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Chase Brown's Legal Journey  03:00 Early Life, Family, and Career Choices 09:00 Law School Experiences and AI's Impact 17:00 Becoming a Prosecutor: Trials and Skills 26:00 Handling Overwhelming Caseloads 33:00 Courtroom Realities: Early Cases and Lessons 39:00 Body Cameras and Police Accountability 46:00 Plea Deals and Prosecutorial Ethics 52:00 Inside the Prosecutor's Role and Personal Impact 01:00:00 Public Defenders and the Legal Community 01:08:00 Trial Law, Juries, and System Challenges 01:18:00 Memorable Cases and Domestic Violence Realities 01:25:00 Switching Sides: Moving to Criminal Defense 01:31:00 Defending the Accused: Ethics and Morality 01:34:00 Reflecting on Lessons Learned _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

My guest today is Chase Brown, a man who followed his father's footsteps into law, went to law school, and became a prosecutor at the Suffolk County District Attorney's Office. For three years, he prosecuted cases, won cases he will never forget, dealt with victims and defendants, navigated a backlogged and broken court system, and offered plea deals that shape people's lives. Then he switched sides, leaving the DA's office to become a private criminal defense attorney at his father's firm. Today, he is sharing the complete truth about what the justice system really looks like from both sides of the courtroom. So I grew up in Huntington, North Shore, Long Island, a smaller town called Coltsbury Harbor.

What was your upbringing like? It was very good upbringing, definitely within a bubble, which is why, like, getting to my job where I am now has been a huge eye-opening experience. But grew up very, very well. The school I went to was almost like a problem. private school. It's probably 150 people per grade. So, you know, he kind of, and it was seven through 12. So you're in the same building from seven through 12. And it was just a small town for what it was. What do your parents do for work? My dad's a lawyer. He's actually my boss right now. And then my mom was a dietician, but then she kind of stopped us to raise off. I have three younger sisters.

So did you always want to go into your dad's line at work? I did. I did. But it kind of sealed a deal in law school. I'm sorry. Yeah, in law school. Like, I knew I was going to be a lawyer. But then when I got to law school, I kind of started getting involved with prosecution and clinics and stuff like that. And that's what kind of sealed the deal. Do you feel like becoming a lawyer was pushed upon you at a young age? Not at all. Not at all. During college, I was kind of working on boats. Like I, we grew up on the weekends, you know, all my friends had little boats. We'd be out all the time, grew up doing that. So I got into like captaining and stuff. And then thought about doing that full time for a little bit. and then kind of realize it's not the direction I wanted to go. That's a complete different direction. Yes. Yes. How are you as a kid?

How would your best friend describe you in high school? We were just kind of do dumb stuff. We always be outside, running around, definitely getting into trouble. I think our age, and we're probably right around the same age, like we're the last generation to not grow up with phones all the time. I think we're kind of like, you know, we had a little bit of it during high school. So we're outside all the time, you know, riding bikes everywhere and playing sports and stuff like that. Yeah, I didn't get my first phone to like seventh grade. I had a flip phone for like,

for I guess emergencies and carry around, but it would always be dead after, you know, like a few days. But then I got the iPhone, what was it, three in eighth grade. And before that, I had a little like, Nokia flip up slide one. Because we didn't have T-Mobile, so I couldn't get the sidekick that, you know, flipped up. And that was like before the iPhone. That was cool. Right. Different times. Different times. And in my flip phone, like my grandparents and my parents, I was only, I couldn't text anyone. Like, it was very, very limited to just that. Were you into, like, law shows or crime shows or anything at all? No, but I always wanted to be a cop at first.

So, like, I would, that kind of interest me. And then, like, my dad would come home and he would talk about work a little bit. So that was cool. So, like, I don't know if I was watching shows, but I was very interested in, like, what happens on the street with the cops and the cops respond and cases like that, and then where it goes from there. Now, did you take high school very seriously because you wanted to be a lawyer? I did. I almost failed out because I missed Jim. And I didn't show, I got like hurt and I didn't just didn't show up.

So they almost felled out. But yeah, I did. I mean, I ended up going to Binghamton, which is upstate. You know, I did okay. But like, I don't know if I was in high school and was like, I need to take this very seriously because I want to be a lawyer. It's kind of just like, let me get through it. it the best I can.

You do come across those people in high school that are super dialed in. They know they want to be a doctor or a lawyer and then they dedicate their whole, you know, high school experience to that. Yeah. That wasn't me. Well, you also don't get to enjoy, I feel like school as much. Right. Where do you end up going to law school?

St. Johns, which is in Queens. Okay. Q Gardens or Jamaica State's Queens. Like I said, when I went there, like I didn't, I wasn't set on a criminal. I kind of knew it was it was on the radar. But I was like, let me see if I can do well in law school. I was never really a good student. Like, I would just work hard, but I never, like, was getting straight A's.

So, like, let me, I was like, let me see how I do, put everything I have into it. If I do well enough, maybe I'll think about, like, big law in the city or something because they kill it right off the bat. I mean, they're making 220 right out of law school, which is crazy. And I put everything I had and I was still, like, average level. So I was like, okay, I'm going to be small, you know, mid-sized firm or go prosecutor a criminal route. Now, as law school very broad in the sense where you don't just, you know, pick which direction you're going in on day one?

Yes. Yes. So it's kind of like you have electives. The first year you take all the same classes, right? Like everyone takes one. And you can kind of go from there. And so, like, I, you know, evidence was my big class. Like, I made sure I took that and that was the most helpful class I've ever taken anything, you know, college, high school and law school.

So you can kind of decide what you want to do from there. But you can go in and then branch out. There's clubs, you know, stuff like that you can do. Why was that so important? for you? Because once I decided I want to be a prosecutor, I wanted to be a trial lawyer. And evidence, you need to know evidence like in and out. Having that base makes trial, you can kind of think about the trial more so than, you know, memorizing rules if you have a good understanding of it. Is it a lot to all take in, you know, in law school just to compile all that information and

save it into your mind? Yes, it is. I want to say the thing that people don't realize, though, is like the bar, you know, when to get, actually get your licenses memorization, but like, all my tests were open book. So like, you're not sitting there memorizing the law. You're not memorizing, like, rules. You're just, you have to know where to find it and you know how to have to write it out, but you don't have to memorize everything. So like, it's not like this crazy cramming flashcards, you know, throughout law school. So you have, you have your outline, you have your book. You can control F, right? Sometimes you even have your laptop. So like, you know, stuff like that. But, um, it's, you have your online. It's, you have your book. So, um, it's, you have your

It's not, the bar is memorized everything, but school is not like that. Do you see law school changing in a different direction now that there's, you know, AI and whatnot? Yes. During research is much easier now. So, and actually, like Lexus and Westlaw and all those services have AI where you can draft stuff. And they're doing fake cases now. So they're cracking down on that.

So it's becoming a problem. So I think it's cutting out a lot of the writing. and they have to figure out how to address it. Fake cases where like people reference it, like what happened with Michael Cohen and New York, his lawyer. It's like a made up case. So like you'll, you have to like, all right, I'm doing a, you know, writing, applying something,

a rule to something, right? And the case law says like, you know, you can't, you can't search someone's backpack if you're, if it's in their car, the backseat of their car. They'll make up a case that says you can do that and then cite to it. And now you're making the decision on the case based on that.

And the teacher or professor will look at it and be like, well, like, where did you get this from? You have to answer to that. And it's kind of like plagiarism in a way because you're just, you know, I'm making shit up. So now the teacher's probably like what judges have to do is check to verify these cases. Yes. Yes.

There's actually recently this kid, he's probably like maybe a little younger than us because you're 30, right? 31. 31. So I'm 29. So like this kid, he did a whole brief for the appellate court. and put fake cases in there. And this is in front of the appellate division,

which is like a step up from like what we do. And like, you can't mess around with that. And the judges are like, where did you get this? And the kid just can't explain it. And they're like, I mean, you should get grieved for that. It should be a problem. And then the opposing counsel was also a kid like same age. And he didn't check the cases.

So they were yelling at him because like you didn't check it either. So like, what's going on with you guys? Wow. Yeah. You know, it's interesting. We're close in age and we went down to entirely different paths, like in a similar time period too. Right.

Like completely different. Yeah. I mean, your story is incredible, though, of like, you know, going what you went through and then being here and doing such a successful podcast and everything. Well, I appreciate you, man. Yeah. How long did it take to get through law school? Three years. Is that normal?

Yeah. Yeah. And we had COVID at the back end of law school. So, like, when was COVID? 2020, I guess March or February. So I was too well, second year, second semester. shut everything down. So we were remote, which was like great because now we didn't have to go. You could watch everything virtually. Just made everything a lot easier. So we didn't get the full

second half law school experience, but it was good to have. I mean, COVID's not great because people were dying, but like from a law school perspective, it was, it was good. And by that point, you had already made up your mind. You're going towards a criminal route. Yes. Yeah. So now do you pick certain classes and change kind of your game plan in law school? So in terms of like extracurricular. So I did, I did an externship prosecutor clinic. So I actually went to Suffolk DA's office. This was first semester too well. So right before COVID. So you're under like a like the law license of the office. So you can be on the record in court. You can be making offers on your cases, like taking pleas. And you actually could do a trial if you had the opportunity to. So I did that.

And that's what kind of sealed the deal. And then once I did that, then I tried to do everything towards that. So I tried to do a clinic in Queens. I tried to do, I did an externship, internship for the U.S. Attorney's Office, Eastern District, actually, because I was just trying to do everything prosecution-wise. So once I did that externship, I did everything from there. What do you do in an internship or an externship? So the externship, you have like a class that like mirrors your, it mirrors like your out-of-class time. So like I'll be in court, you know, three days a week. or two days a week, and then you'll have a class where, like, recap everything. And actually, I mean, it's probably a funny story. Like, we're in court and you're supposed to have another,

like an actual prosecutor there watching you. And I guess, like, they were short at the time. And Suffolk's like the Wild West. Like, is this, it's one of the places, it's one of the remaining conservative counties, I would say, in New York and especially Long Island, because once you go to the city, it's just changes. So, like, the prosecutor couldn't be there. So they put all of us ex turns in there. And they're like, all right, just like figure it out. And I'm like, we're kind of like, what do you mean, figured out? Like, we don't know what we're doing. And there's no prosecutor, you know, supervising of us. And then my idiot, we go into like the class to recap everything. And I'm like, to the professor, I'm like, yeah, they threw us in the room and

just said, do whatever. And I told him that. And he's like, that's not okay. Like, we got to figure that. So he actually called the office and like, this is not okay. You can't do it. And I was just like, I don't know why I can snitched on myself to. And you guys don't even have your law license yet. right? No. No, you're under their law license. And no one's there supervising us. So it was just like not good. Now, will they actually have you try cases when you're an intern or an ex-term? If you got the opportunity, yeah. You'll have a second seat. Like you'll have an actual prosecutor who will be there with you. But if you have the opportunity, yeah, definitely.

Wow. Definitely. Do they, they must pick maybe stronger cases or something so you don't blow anything? Or are they just giving you kind of minor work? It's all misdemeanors. So you're never, you can't stand up on a felony under the license. So like misdemeanors would be like, you know, assaults, dewees, um, harassment. So like stuff like that, you couldn't do a jury because you have to be there every day. Um, with class, it wasn't practice. So it'd have to be a bench trial. So like harassment, like neighbor harassments where the guys like, you know, throwing soil or mulch on the other guy's lawn and, you know, or parking in front of his driveway just to piss them off kind of thing. So you could do cases like that. Um, low stakes where

it's like, it's a harassment like, you know, and a lot of times when it's in a bench trial, like you're most of the time as a prosecutor you're losing. So like you kind of, no, going into it. That's how it's going to go. Wait, really? The prosecutors lose on bench trials? In district court where it's like, yeah, yes. Why is that? It's just how it is. It's how it is. In terms of like, you know, when you're, there's no jury, so the judge is deciding, obviously.

And it's just like, you just know going in, like the judge is not, I mean, it doesn't always happen, but you just know the judge is going to side with the defense. A lot of times. So on a bench trial, right, you have these brand new prosecutors. We're fresh out of law school. We're two years in. We don't know, you know, blue in the face, like kind of figuring it out. And then you have this defense attorneys who have been doing this for 20 years. So you're going to get destroyed. And it's the judge deciding.

So like you just know that's how it's going to go. Now these are misdemeanor cases. Should they have never been charged? Are they just weaker cases? Lower stakes. The Dewees are huge in Suffolk, driving well intoxicated. I mean, because there's no public transportation. So everyone's, you know, and we didn't, there wasn't Uber as much back then, obviously now,

but it's still not an excuse. but like dewees are all over the place and the assaults, it's just, no, they absolutely shouldn't be charged. It's just lower stakes, right? You're not talking about going upstate three years. You're not talking about five years probation, a felony conviction that's going to follow you forever.

It's like, you know, Dwee, which is going to get reduced to a non-criminal charge or these harassment where it's non-criminal. So they should still be charged depending on the case, but it's just how they result. Now, do those only become felonies on your, say, second or third strike, I guess? I know in Connecticut, I think you get the first one.

It's a misdemeanor, and then it increases. For the dewees? Yeah. Yes. Yeah. So if you have another dewee within 10 years, it becomes a felony dewee. Automatically, if you get charged with it. Yes.

Okay. Yes. And then actually three, I think, becomes a D felony. It goes up one more. If you get three felonies within 10 years. Now, did you do any internships with, say, a criminal defense attorney at all to see that side of it? I didn't. It was all towards prosecution.

Why was that? Because I knew I wanted to go to the DA's office first. And at that point, like, I didn't even see myself going private. I was like, this is what I want to do in terms of being a prosecutor. I was like, this is the coolest thing. Just from that one externship where I was with these two older ADAs who just were okay with just kind of sitting back and letting me, like, run the courtroom essentially. So I was like, this is what I want to do.

So I just geared everything towards prosecution. What's a mindset behind that? Is it like I want to put away the bad guys? I'm passionate about that or is there something different to it? Um, not that I want to put away the bad guys. It's that you're in court. Um, you're trying the cases. You're putting the cases together. You're bringing in these cops and these detectives and these witnesses. And, um, on a victim sensitive case, like an, like an assault or like a sex case, right? Like a forcible touching, which is New York's equivalent of, um, you know, over the close touching. If you want to put it that way, um, there, you have a victim who's, who's hurt, um, mentally and you have, or if you, physically and you want to you want to help them. So there is some positive from that. And then you also can like, look, if someone's young and they make a mistake, like you want to help them out. And as a prosecutor, you have the power to say, okay, look, like, hey, you made a mistake, but like work for it

and we'll get you back to it's not going to follow you the rest of your life. Do you think that was your, I guess, style of wanting to be a cop when you were a kid? You kind of went down that law enforcement path? Yes. Yes. And the idea of like being on the street and helping people and just kind of being where all the action is. And prosecutor is like the next best thing, you know, the second thing to that. Because like all these, the cops coming in, you're talking about the incident and stuff like that. So it's kind of, yeah. Now, when you're in law school making a decision on what career path, does the financial aspect play a part in it too, you know, whether you're going in the private sector or the public sector. Do you think about that? Yes, it does because Long Island cost of living is

so high. Out of the DA's office, I probably made $69,000 right off the bat. And like that's not to pay rent on Long Island. I mean, the minimum is like $1,800 per month is what you're getting like around, you know, Huntington, whatever. So it's just, and then obviously food and car payments and it's just not practical. So you have to, you got to want to do it. You got to really want to do it. You got to want to be in court and you got to want to put up with the low pay.

Because like I said, my friends are coming out of law school making $225,000. And, you know, it's just like, it's a big disparity, but you got to, so you got to want to do it. Were there people in law school that were like shy that you knew were just not going to make it or couldn't get over that? I don't think so much of like couldn't get over it. I think that you just knew that the type of law they were going to go into. They were never going to be in court. They were never going to be public speaking. They were going to be transactional where they're negotiating deals or just kind of reviewing stuff and giving legal advice based on that.

They're just not going to be courtroom lawyers because I want to say like point maybe one person. or half a percent are trial lawyers of lawyers, and most people never see a courtroom. Wow. What do you think it takes to be a trial lawyer in today's world? You have to want a public speak. You have to be able to think on your feet. You've got to be able to react to a situation and come up with something to say in response, even if, you know, you have to think of it.

It's like you'll object, right? You'll stand up. And from the second I'm in my chair until I'm standing up, I'm thinking about what I'm going to say. Like, when I object, I don't necessarily know how I'm going to respond. but I'm taking that second, second and a half to try to figure it out. So I think thinking on your feet, I think you have to be nervous, right? If you go in there and you're not nervous, then, like, there's something wrong. So, like, you always want to have that, uh, that those nerves factoring into it and making you,

you know, be that much better and, you know, caring about it. Do you enjoy the, say, an adrenaline of it? Yes. You know, sometimes, like when I go in public speak, um, you feel that rush and you're scared, but it's also like you, you chase after that feeling. Yes. Yes. I mean, I played sports in high school.

I was competitive. Like, this is the only thing I found that, like, I genuinely enjoy from a competitive standpoint. And it is a rush. Like, when you're on trial, like, your life is consumed, that's all you're doing. I'll have a pad next to my bed where I'm waking up the middle of the night writing an idea that I had because I dreamed about something, right? Like, it just consumes your life. And it's such a rush. And when you come down, you almost get depressed.

Like when the trial's done, it's like all that adrenaline. one's gone and you're kind of like, all right, what do I do now? And much to be even worse if you say lose in a case like that too. Yes, yes. Losing from the prosecution side is very different than losing from the defense side. I think the consequences are much different from defense than prosecution. When I was a prosecutor, I didn't have the, like, let me phrase this. If I went back to being a prosecutor today, I'd be a very different prosecutor than I was

prior to going to the defense side because you don't have the human aspect so much. much. Like, a prosecutor doesn't realize, like, okay, there's a human on the other end of this case, right? Like, you have your lawyers there, protect this person. All they see is, like, you'll get the rap sheet. So you'll see the picture. And you'll see all these horrible things that someone's saying they did. But you don't see the human part of them, right? And that's kind of what the defense lawyer is there to do. I mean, they're there to advocate and advise on the law, but they're really there to humanize this person. So, and I don't think that you see that so much. I think you're just focused on, like, what the police give to you and what the complaint.

it says about the case. You don't really, you don't focus on the human aspect. So like, when you lose a trial from the defense side, like this person could either be getting a conviction or they could be going upstate for 20 years. So like, from a prosecution standpoint, like your boss is going to yell at you, right? Like, you know, you might get demoted. Like, but someone's life is not drastically changing from that. So it's like, I wouldn't, I didn't understand that so much on the other side. Now, if I went back to being a prosecutor, you see it differently. You also aren't spending as much time as, uh, with the defendant as much as the defense does.

As a prosecutor? Yeah, as a prosecutor. You spend a lot of time with the victim, and I'm sure you develop, you know, feelings for that person. Right. Regardless of the outcome. Right. But with the defendant, you don't spend really any time with them at all other than the courtroom.

No. Unless they're cooperating. Right. Unless they're cooperating. But like, like in a courtroom, especially on these felonies, like in Suffolk, like it's everyone against just the defendant, right? And like, sometimes it's me and my client versus everyone, right? You have the judge who's looking to put you away.

You have the prosecutor and you have the prosecutors, but you also have people in the audience who are there supporting the prosecutor, right? And it's like the whole world is against this one person. And you need to be there to kind of like protect, right? Be the barrier and, you know, advocate for that person and give them a good defense because it's like I said, it's everyone against this one person. So it's a scary environment. I've only been the lawyer in between this person, but it's like, it gets scary.

So because prosecutors aren't necessarily trained to look at the human side of the defendant like you're just describing, do you think that's how some maybe wrongful convictions happen because they're so dead set on that person? Yes, absolutely. Because you have to understand just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. And I think people have a hard time understanding that, right? Just because I said, you know, Joe punched me in the face, right? doesn't mean it's true, right? Like, there could be an alternate explanation.

I could have been defending myself. Like, you have to look at the case overall. You can't look at just what the complainant says, but it goes the same way. Like, I can't just rely on what my client tells me. I need to look at everything. So just because someone says something doesn't mean it's true. And I think that sticks with you even more

when you're on the defense side because, again, now you have someone's life who's at stake because of what someone else said. So it becomes like a problem. And you have to understand that. You guys would not believe the DMs I get. Every single week, someone messages me saying, Ian, I can get you Martha Stewart, or I know Jordan Belfort personally.

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Cash app is a financial services platform, not a bank, banking services provided by Cash App's bank partners, prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC, Cash App Visa debit flex cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC, and the Bain Corp Bank, N.A. pursuant to a license from Visa USA Incorporated, see terms and conditions for the Sutton Prepaid Card, Sutton Debit Flex Card, and Bancorp Debit Flex card. Discounts and promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Incorporated brand, visit cache.app slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. So you finished law school, do you go straight to the DA's office or do you go anywhere first?

No, straight to the DA's office, straight to Suffolk District Attorney's Office. And your dad was there at the time or no? No, so he did two years, like way back and he's been out for like 30 years. Okay. So he was in Suffolk as a defense attorney. But so we had, you know, I would see him two times a week because we were in the same, you know, Suffolk is very small, very small legal community. So we'd see each other all the time. And you work directly with the prosecutor's office?

Yes. And what was your role getting hired on as? Like once I got hired? Yeah. So like district court, which is like the misdemeanors. So like when I was an extir and like now you're just a actual prosecutor in that bureau. So it's your misdemeanors, your dewees, uh, dewees assaults.

Some of the sex cases. Um, what else do we have? Some obscure stuff. But generally speaking, it was your dewees and your assaults. And how many of those do you handle in one day? Well, like assigned, like me personally assigned, you probably have about 300 in any given time. Wow. And then, but like when you're in court, you're handling a lot of people's cases.

Like, court's just like kind of like the machine, like just calendar calls. You're just kind of going through people's cases for them. But like personally assigned yet, you have at least 300. And how do you keep track of that? It's tough. It's kind of like a triage. You got to know which cases need to be where and then kind of focus on those and do the best you can. I mean, it's, you're, you're overloaded.

There's just no, you know, felony's different, but a misdemeanor bureau, it's just, there's no way to do it. How many prosecutors work in the office? Total Suffolk probably has, I want to say at least 100. 100 prosecutors? Probably. Wow, I didn't realize there was that many. Yeah, I could be like way off on that, but I think that's where it is. District court's probably like 15.

And then you have domestic violence, which is probably another eight. And then when to get out to the felony bureaus, there's, you know, it's, you know, it's spreads out a little bit. And then what, there's one elected official that oversees all of them. Yeah. So the one elected official is the DA. When I started, it was a different district attorney, and then maybe five months in the current DA came in. And then are you, or do they have assistant DAs under or you guys consider the assistant? So we're like line, we were line assistants. But then you have like bureau chiefs, deputy bureau chiefs. They have like execs. So like there's a whole hierarchy. On a day to day, the only person above me I would deal with is like my boss, which would be

the Bureau Chief of District Court. When you first start, does everything just get tossed on you? Yes. Or is there like a slow period? It's trial by fire. They throw you in there. I think that every district attorney's offices like that. You just kind of, the volume is overwhelming.

They don't have the time to teach you because when you come in, it's because like people have left. So now they're already kind of hemorrhaging. So they need you to fill the spots of where people had left out of. So like you're just, you're thrown in there. You have to learn as you go. Now then, do you still have to learn that state? or that city's particular rules too and laws?

Because that's not taught to you in law school. No, no. And every county is different. So, like, you can go from Suffolk to Nassau, and the way they handle cases are completely different, which is mind-blowing to me, right? And you can go from Suffol, drive 10 miles, Nassau, D-Wees are handled differently,

and then the city completely different, too. The law is all the same in New York, but how the cases are handled is different. So how do you comprehend that fresh out of law school? Just have to follow, talk to other people, see how it goes. it's overwhelming for sure. There's nothing scarier than going in court

and not 100% knowing what's going on, right? Like you're kind of figuring it out as you go. Hopefully there was an older ADA who was like supervising you, but sometimes there wasn't. Do you remember the first lesson you learned on the job? First lesson. I just like, I don't want to say fake until you make it,

but like you got to get up there and you got to just even if you are not right, just you need to say with 100% confidence. You have to just project confidence in the courtroom because if they sense that you're not, the judge or the defense attorney is going to jump on it. What did it tell you about the criminal justice system, you know, when you first start and you have all these cases coming at you? It's the system works, but there's a lot of holes in it, right? You have prosecutors who make mistakes. Cases fall through the cracks.

And same way a defense attorney might not pick up on certain stuff and handle the case differently. and, you know, that person now has those consequences forever. I think, for the most part, the system works. I think that it does accomplish what it needs to, but you do have those cases where it falls through. And I think you need to learn from that as a prosecutor and defense attorney and move forward. And hopefully not even from your own mistakes, hopefully from you see someone else's mistake and try and fix it.

Out of the 300 cases you have, say, at a time, how many do you think actually need to be there? That's tough. I mean, I think the dewees, I want to say out of those, you probably have 80 dewees. I think the dewees need to be there. I think we handle them pretty fairly, but I think they do need to be there. The assaults, I mean, not all of them need to be there. And the harassments.

I mean, harassment are like, like I said, just neighbors fighting with each other. If you're out at a bar and you're getting like, you know, words with each other and then someone punches someone. Like, that's a harassment. So, like, those cases don't necessarily need to be there. I don't know percentage or numbers, but those are like, they can be handled outside of court. They don't need to be going through the system and using resources and whatnot. Now, these cases, because they're on the, say, smaller side, do they just automatically get charged or do they go to the prosecutor first to ask if we should charge them?

In Suffolk, the police just charge it. So Queens, actually, they have to get permission from the prosecutor. Suffolk, for whatever reason, I don't know why. It's just always been that way. Police charge it, and then it comes to the DA's office. like, and if I wanted to charge something, right, if I see a crime from speaking to a complainant, I can't charge it. It has to go back. I got to refer them back to the police department. Police department has to say, okay, we'll charge it. But now you get into like politics of like,

you're doing my job, I'm doing your job. So like it creates a problem where you can't, the prosecutors can't make your own decisions, at least on the misdemeanors with charging and not charging. So the case, the police charge a defendant and then the case goes on your desk. Yeah. Walk us through that process. What are it kind of like? like the next steps and how does it play out? So I guess we could use like a Dewee just for, for instance, or maybe an assault's probably better. So assault comes across my desk.

The first thing I like to do, like there's body cam now throughout Suffolk. When I first started, it was like getting phased in. And then I want to say within a year, it's everywhere. So I want to look at that body cam. Before I speak to the complainant, I want to see how these people are on body cam, how the cops are, right? Like what's occurring? Because if you have a complainant who's like, and I say complainant,

victim assumes, right? So we defense side, as a prosecutor, by the way, you'd always say victim. Now we say complainant. I want to see how the complaint it is. Are they like, are they upset, crying, freaking out? Or are they just like very calm? And I can see, I can evaluate the case from that. Then I'll speak to that actual complainant. See if they're interested, right? Do they want the case to go forward? Do they not care? Are they done with it? And then kind of go, then start reviewing more of the paperwork and, you know, you come up with the defense attorneys and kind of come up with an offer that you want to make on the case. I think a good skill to have as a prosecutor is knowing when you look at a case where the

case is going to go. You can look at certain cases and say, okay, this is going to go to trial, right? Just because the defendant's situation, the allegations, right, a lot of the sex cases you know are going to go to trial. They're going to get very close. They're going to plea out right before or they're actually going to go to trial. You have your DUE where someone blows a 0.15. Like there's not much to fight.

Like it's just as long as the stops good, right? like you're going to plea it out. You're going to work it out. So I think knowing which cases are going to go and which aren't is a very good skill to have as a prosecutor because you can kind of focus your attention now. So you could tell if they're going to go to trial or not before even ever talking to that individual? Yes. I think so. I think so. I mean, not every time, but I think you can tell pretty quickly. Because if the complainant's on body cam, like, I want this person to go to jail, like, you know, screw them. Like, they're going to be someone who's going to want this case to go forward and they're going to not be happy with anything

less than jail. New York State, you're not going to jail on an assault. So it's like you have to kind of handle the case that way. Now, does the defendant by the time you get the case already have a court date? Yes. So I'll get it after arraignment. So they'll get arrested, brought to court, and then I'll get it that same day or the next day. So you don't show up to arraignment yourself? No, there'll be a prosecutor who's there. Like sometimes, maybe I had a weekend where I would do it, but like you personally know. You're not like, it's different, like, at least on the misdemeanor level, you're not personally involved in the case all the time. Like you're behind the scenes.

If it gets to a trial, you're there. But up until that point, there's no reason for you to actually personally appear on the case. Now, how do you come up with what you're going to offer someone? What are you guys looking at and taking into account? So there's standard offers for the dewees that you have to kind of stick by. The assault, you got to just kind of feel it out, right? Like I remember had a Dewee where like the kid, it was a kit. He was probably 19.

And listen, he had no business. being he was probably a point one eight he had no business driving this car he had an accident i mean no one got hurt but he had an accident and like i didn't want him to take a misdemeanor i thought that a misdemeanor is not the right thing here i think he's young i think he made a mistake i think he should really really work hard like really work hard to get rid of it but i think he should end up with a reduction to a non-criminal plea the bosses wouldn't happen the boss is like no he has to have a misdemeanor on his record so the point where like i almost felt like i was advocating for this guy this kid and I was the prosecutor. So like that case, like it just didn't seem right. And the other cases

you know, like, all right, this person got hurt. Like, they need to take a misdemeanor and they need to go on probation or, you know, even jail. So to answer your question shortly, like you have to look at the circumstances. You got to look at the person and then you got to look at the harm that was done, if any. So on a case like that, does that ever make you think at that point in time? Maybe this isn't for me. I should go into criminal defense work? It starts thinking. Yeah, it starts you thinking. Because it's like, I, you know, it's cool to advocate, right? It's cool to advocate for this person. Like, I know what I want to get across.

I know what is right here and what's wrong, in my opinion. And I want to be the one to be doing that, right? Because in the DA's office, you have bosses. You have, there's a hierarchy. You've got to listen to your bosses. The defense side, for the most part, you're not, you don't have to answer to anyone, right? You answer to your client, but you're the expert. So they're relying on you.

And I'm going to advocate however I think is best necessary. Now, is there ever a time when you're reviewing body cam footage or even the paperwork and you see the police make a mistake? And if so, what do you do? Great question. So if the police make a mistake, it's going to change the offer on the case. So actually, I'll talk about the other case. So I had, as a prosecutor, this guy was in like a work truck, like an F-350 work fan.

And not like so there's highways on Long Island. There's like the southern state. There's the expressway. There's the northern state. Sagatose. So those are all like the expressway is like your three lanes, busy interstate. and then you have the other roads, which are northern and southern,

which are like parkways, so no trucks allowed. So this guy steals a work truck. When he steals it, a cop pulls up. He rams the cop car, so he gets hurt. The cop, I think he broke his hand maybe or something, and the truck disappears for like a day. Now, and so everyone's in Suffolk County is looking for this truck.

Like, this guy hit a cop, like, we need to find this truck. It's a small county, I mean, population-wise. So, like, we need to find him. now another cop sees the truck driving and they they start pursuing them it's the same guy driving and they throw out spikes to like try and stop it and the spikes don't work and this guy's now going the wrong way on the expressway like against traffic and it's rush hour it's not like two in the morning it's not it's like 5 6 p.m. in the summer now so he's doing that now they call in emergency services which is like the uh you know heightened police department guys the guys who you know jaws of life and

the scuba diving and the SWAT team, like those are those guys, like the Navy SEALs of the police spartner, if you want to put it, right? So they're following him now. And in Suffolk County, I'm sure it's all over the place, police procedure, but like if you start putting people in the public in danger, you're supposed to call off the pursuit, unless it's a violent felony that was committed,

which here like it was, but there was a day in between the cop getting hit and this case. So you're supposed to call off the pursuit. So you see, and we get communications. So you hear the communications of the supervisors, call it off, call it off. Now this guy goes from the expressway. Now he's on the sagittos going the wrong way. He's going on the grass.

Like there's videos, like there's this page Long Island Wise guy, which is like an Instagram page. You see the video of this truck going the wrong way. So he's swerving in and out. And the fact that no one died is still crazy. Then he goes on another highway going the wrong way. And he finally,

and there's cop car swerving it out, finally crashes the truck into a fence. Now this guy had, I still remember his name, but he had a lot of priors. He's been upstate two times. like you definitely had a drug, you know, substance abuse issue. This was like, this was crazy, though, because you're putting so many people's lives in danger.

Like, this is not, you can't be, you know, something needs to be done with this guy. There needs to be consequences for this. So he gets out of the car and the cops pull him out, like pull him out. And they had body cam. And the one cop just wails on this guy. I mean, two, three times just beats him up in the face. And like, when he gets pulled out of the car, he's not bleeding. Then you see five cops attack him.

Then you look up and now his face. is bloody and it's all over the place and he's screaming. And then you start to rewind all these body cams and you see the cop. Like he winds up and punches him. Like that case now is resolved completely different because you can't put that in front of a jury. Because like people are going to say, oh, that guy deserved it. But at the same time, like the police are public servants. You got to hold them to a high standard.

So like how can you put that in front of a jury? The jury is going to say like, yeah, he did a bad thing. But like screw that because the cops made a mistake. That's not okay. So like that case, that should have been an upstate case. The guy should have went to prison for that, but he ended up getting, like, probation because the cop did that. So would that have been kicked to a different team of prosecutors, or would you have handled that all the way through? So I was like, I would like, I would fall in love with my cases.

I don't know if you want to put it, but like I would, you know, passionate about it. Passionate about it. Yeah, that's probably a better way. I would like, I would work him up and I would get attached to it. And I would like, I want to follow this. So like that case, I actually left in the middle of that case. I left the DA's office as that was pending. I think I got permission for my boss to follow that case.

You would have let me. Normally it would go to a felony bureau and they would take it. And it ultimately did. And that's how it resolved. Again, with probation, it still bothers me to this day. But again, it is what it is. Now, on the other side of that, say the body camera footage never goes on, you know, like it's flicked off or it goes missing. Do you deal with it the same way or is it you guys roll the dice and just let their word go against the officers?

In Suffolk, it's the officer's war is going to prevail in that situation because the truck hit offense. So you're going to say that the injury is from the accident. Whereas like here, you could clearly see the injuries not from the accident. It's from the officer. So if you don't have body cam, no, that case is going to trial. And if the only way that comes out is if that guy takes a stand and that defendant can take the stand because he has all these priors, like it's going to come out. So that case is handled completely differently. Now, body camera footage doesn't roll all day, right?

It has to get clicked on or how does that work? So, a lot of... Because I see it like shows it gets like the button has to get hit before when they pull up. Yeah. A lot of times it's synced up with the police cars. So if you turn your emergency lights on, it automatically will go back 30 seconds. Start recording. If you...

It's actually crazy, the technology. If you pull your gun, every body cam within like a 30... No, I want to say whatever the radius is will engage. So you could be a cop who's just driving and has nothing to do with that call. And if you're within that radius of that cop pulling his gun, your body cam will now... engage. They can mute it though. So what happens is they'll be on scene and they'll mute it.

And when they mute it, they're talking to each other. And it's like, what are you, what are you guys saying? And there's been times where they forget to mute it and you hear what they're saying. And it's like, okay, now I understand why you're muting it. Because like, you know, they say stuff they shouldn't be saying. And now body cam exposes that all, obviously. Yeah, I've always thought about that.

Like, if I was a cop, I don't think in the moment I could remember to turn it on it if you're in the middle of a shootout or something. Right. Right. I mean, so my thing with body cam is like, if you're a cop who has a problem with the body cam, that I don't think you should be a cop. I think that body cams are great. It, it holds people accountable, holds the police accountable, and it holds civilians accountable.

Because, like, civilians could make up stuff that the police are doing, and now the police are protected because the body cam shows what actually happened. If you are concerned that you're doing something on the street that's going to get you in trouble and you don't want body cam on, I don't think you have business being a cop. I think that's a problem. Now, say the charges are written up wrong or the person was wrongfully charged or anything, are you stepping up and saying something and turning it over to the defense or do you let the defense find out on its own? As a prosecutor.

Yeah. No, ethically, you have to because of Brady. It's like a case, if it's exculpatory, right? If something tends to show that you're innocent or you're not guilty, right? Like, you ethically have to bring that forward. If there's issues with the case, you'll have that conversation with the, defense attorney. I mean, I thought that I was always very open. Like, my case is my case. Like, I'm not going to hide anything. I think it's just a bad way to be a prosecutor. Now, I'm not

going to do the defense attorney's job for them. But if there's something that's going to affect the case, like, you'll bring it forward. But if anything that's like clear, like someone says, I got punched and then now that I bring the complaint it in, they say, no, he never punched me. Like, you need to tell the defense attorney, like right away. You actually have to do a, you know, I would do a letter. So it's in writing. At this time, this location, this person told me, this. So we're covered. I'm sure that's got to be hard, too, from, you know, when you mix passion with having to be professional in those situations, you know, you know maybe this person's guilty, but there's this smoking gun that somewhere along the lines, a mistake was made and you have

to turn it over. Yeah. One thing that stuck with me, my dad actually said in the beginning is, like, if a cop does something wrong, like, as a prosecutor, that should bother you. Like, that's something that you should do something about because prosecutors not just trying to put people away. You're trying to do justice, and people's definition of justice is different, but you're trying to do the right thing. You're trying to, if the cop does something bad, you need to hold them accountable, right? So stuff that goes wrong should bother you. And it did. You said something earlier that stuck out about, you know, when you were listing how you have all these people that are against the defense to put them away.

And one of those individuals with judges, do you feel like judges aren't, you know, impartial in that sense? They are. They are at trial, for the most part. I think that once you get convicted, the judge is going to, you're going to get, you know, they're going to send it to you based on the case. I mean, a lot of times, like, if you don't go to trial, the judge doesn't know that much about the case. What they do, though, is they'll say, okay, like, this is my promise now, right? So let's say it's a violent, a felony assault to. And they're like, okay, my promise right now is two years upstate.

If you go to trial, though, all bets are off. But you have to be careful how you say it, because there has to be a problem. be something done if you go to trial. You can't just give them the same offer because then everyone's going to go to trial and it's just going to bog the system down, right? So the way it's phrased is, if you go to trial and I learn something from the facts that makes me know more about it, then I'm going to sentence you to more. Whereas if you say, if you go to trial, I'm going to give you more, you can't say that. But if you hear the facts of the case, now, like they say, I learned something that makes me want to sentence you to more. So now that's like, what do they call trial tax?

Yeah. From a defendant's point of view. Does that exist or? Unofficially it does. But like, it should, right? Like, because then everyone's going to go to trial. And if you get the same thing after trial, like, you're just going to bog everything down, these resources. So, like, I don't disagree with it.

But I think that if you look at, you know, if you hear the evidence and it does show, like, something, you know, that came out that's way worse than you thought, then you probably should be sentenced to more. If you go through the case and it's not as bad, then by all means, keep what the original offer. But like, yeah, if you go to trial, you're going to nine times out of ten get more than you would have. What would happen if every defendant decided to go to trial? Could that even be possible? It would break the system. It's impossible. There's the resources. It's just impossible. From the police's perspective, from a prosecution perspective, from the judge's perspective, there's just not

enough because one percent of cases go to trial, if that. So now imagine you took it to 10 percent of cases. It would be impossible. There's cases that are backed up three years right now. because there's just not enough time and resource to do it. So, like, it would break the system. Now, what happens when you have, say, a silly or case, maybe a misdemeanor? No one got hurt, but the person won't take a deal and is persist on going to trial. Will you guys drop it at that point or do you go to trial? No, as a prosecutor, you're going to trial.

Wow. And how much will that cost? From the prosecution standpoint? From everything altogether. I don't know if I could put a number from the prosecution standpoint. defense, it's going to be whatever, you know, the attorney sets the fee. It's, but if you want to talk about time, right, like, prosecution's nine to five. If you're on trial, you're not working nine to five.

You don't get paid to work past it, but you're just, you know, you have to prep and there's stuff to do. I don't know dollar amounts, though, of how much it costs the, you know, DA's office to go forward, but it definitely costs more. It's more time, right? And a case like that, do you find that you guys lose those as well? Not always. I had a case where we offered a dismissal.

So in a German contemplation of dismissal, I don't know what Connecticut's equivalent of that is, but basically the case gets adjourned six months, gets dismissed, goes away, gets sealed. The defense attorney said no. I don't know if his client said it, but it was conveyed, he said no. And like the reason we offer that is because there's issues with the case,

not because I didn't believe what happened, happened. So basically, like, there's an incident where this guy gets, He picks, he gets in a car. So just say, guys, Jake, right? Jake's in his car and he picks up his girlfriend and he points a gun at her and like threatens her basically. And like because there's a new boyfriend and whatever and they didn't find the gun and it's a menacing which is pointing a weapon at someone.

They couldn't find the gun. So we said there's issues with the case and like the complaint it wasn't so interested. She didn't really want to go forward. So we offered an ACOD and they said no. And this is an amissomere by the way, menacing. So this kid's 19-year-old. result. And we're like, well, what are we supposed to do? We can't just dismiss the case. Like, we have to go forward at that point. We're offering a dismissal. We're not going to just dismiss it.

We go forward and this kid gets convicted. And it's like you literally had a dismissal. And now, and you just couldn't deal with whatever. So now he gets convicted. But you can't dismiss that case. Like there's no, because then everyone's going to push and that's what's going to happen. Now, when a situation like that happens when they go to trial and you did give them a good offer, are you offering them a better deal throughout it just to not risk it with the jury or the judge if it's a bench trial? I think once you start, once the jury's in the box, I think that's it. There's no offers anymore.

It's not like what do they call it, like the midnight last hour or whatever? Yeah. I mean, it happens. I've seen it happen. I don't think I was ever, I think I, once the jury, once we started, that's it. Like, we're going to try. We're trying it. All bets are off.

What were the hardest cases for you to work with or go against? From prosecution and defense. Yeah, from the prosecution standpoint. The hardest cases were like the sex cases. And, you know, sex is not, sex cases are not always, you know, child abuse, but like the forceful touchings were like, or endangering the welfare of a child. So we had a case where, like, the guy is in a parking lot and like 12, no, what is he? He's probably 15-year-old kids riding his bike. And he calls the kid over to the car, takes his fingers in his mouth, starts sucking in his finger and says, like, get in the car.

And the kid's like, no way. And then the guy, like, follows him to like a 7-Eleven. This kid calls his brother to come. And then as soon as the brother shows up, then the guy takes off. So they charge him with the endangerment of the welfare of a child. I feel like there should have been more there. But this guy, by the way, is probably like 45. So on that case, like, so you have to deal with this kid.

And the victim in that case. I'm going to say victim because I was prosecution at that point. And his family did not support him at all. They were not supportive of this kid. I think the family didn't believe him. So like the parents came in with this kid because just to meet with us and the dad's on the phone texting the whole time. I'm like, your son's in here because some guy tried to kidnap him and like you don't really care about it. So it's like in that case, it's almost like when you're on the fence.

Like you're the only person with this kid or your client. So I felt like that in that case. And it's tough because the kid didn't have the support he needed. It took me and, you know, the other prosecutor I did it with to kind of step in and do that. If we lost that case, it would have been bad because I would have to call that kid and say, like, you know, the jury didn't believe you. And you don't want to have that conversation when no one in his life is supportive. And now even the jury's not supportive. So that was tough case.

We did get the conviction on him. So, like, you know, I had to make it. I had a good call to make. Like, hey, this guy was held accountable. But it's tough on something like that. Is it hard for you to offer a defendant. like that a plea deal? Yes.

But we made offers, though. Like we didn't, like, you can never go to trial without making an offer. Like, you just, you can't because it's not the right thing. Like, you have to, you have to make an offer. They have to, the defendant, you know, has to say, no, I don't want to take it. You have to do everything you can to avoid trial. Like, you got to make the right offer. The right offer doesn't work.

Then it is what it is. You go forward. It's your right. But you have to, you got to make an offer pre-trial. That case, we probably offered, like, a misdemeanor and probation, which I think is fair on that. Because that's kind of like a deterrence case. Like, you know, you don't want this guy doing something again.

So, you know, I think that was the right offer there. But obviously now it was up to the judge at that point. How much time do you end up getting? They appealed it. So I think it's still actually going on. This is like three years ago now. That's insane. It's still going on.

So how do you feel about the time it takes for any type of case? You know, I see it in Connecticut. I was just talking to an officer that just came on the show. you charge them and before they can even be found guilty, they might even get charged again with another two crimes, say, and then they're out on bail and it's just, it's a ridiculous system that drags on forever. Yeah. From a, okay, so misdemeanor standpoint, if you're out of custody, like, not such a big deal,

in my opinion, you're out of custody, you're living your life, you're not, you know, you have your freedom at that point. So, yeah, it takes a long time and it's frustrating and it's over your head, but like you're, you're functioning. You can live your life. On the felonies, when you're in custody, like, now you're spending jail time. And to me, it blows my mind because it's like, what if this person's found innocent? Like, what, like, what are we doing with that time they just spent there? Like, like, it's not, you know, it's messed up. So on that case, like, you need to get it done fast because, like, seriously, if the guy's innocent and he's going to walk and he just

wasted a year of his life in jail because the prosecution said, you know, he's guilty. Like, it's crazy. So, you know, in that case, that's not good. You want to get your trial. You want to, you know, we have speedy trial and stuff like that. But like you want to get there quick so that you can, if you're in custody and being held on bail, you know, we want to get you out if you're actually going to get out. How do you feel about the bail system? So New York changed their loss recently. New York is very liberal with their bail.

Some cases I think you should be able to ask for bail. I mean, you know, robbery, I think a robbery second, which is a violent felony where you could go, I think it's a robbery. a C felony, I can do my flashcards, maybe it's three and a half to 15, right? Under a certain subsection, it's not bail eligible. So you could be charged, right? And, you know, someone could go on paper, say, you know, it was a violent robbery and the judge doesn't have the ability to hold you, to set bail on you. So there is a flight risk, right? You're facing so much time upstate that there is an incentive to flee. I don't like the bail system being used to force a plea. So I don't like a prosecutor asking to hold someone

just because you're going to get a plea easier because now they're in custody and they'll do anything they can to get out of custody. So that's my problem with the bail system, right? Like I had this girl who was being attacked by her boyfriend and she stabbed him in self-defense and I think it was a very good self-defense case, but the judge said bail. Like that case, bail should not be set, just objectively. It just shouldn't. Now she's in custody. And now she had to take a misdemeanor because the prosecutor comes to me and says, okay, we'll offer a misdemeanor and probation. But I'm like, you guys can't prove this case. Like, there shouldn't be any offer.

But I have to go to this girl and say, look, they're offering probation you could get out tomorrow. I don't want this conviction to follow you around, but like, what do you want to do? And it's tough because, like, I have to go to the client. She obviously wanted to get out. So she pled guilty. And it's like bail was, in that case, was used to forcibly. And that's only because she couldn't afford to get out. Correct.

Correct. I mean, bail is like most, the average person doesn't have $50,000 cash or $100,000. $150,000, you know, a house they could put up. Like, it's just not the norm. So most people are in custody. How do the bail bondsmen work? Like, you'll reach out to them and they'll like evaluate if you have a house or property. They'll like appraise your house and give you a fee. Sometimes they want like guarantees. So they want like six. This is the most recent thing I heard the other day. Six people working making over $50,000 who can sign and vouch that you're going to come back to court on top of paying $50.

$50,000 for a bond. Like, it's just like, it's like ridiculous. Like how most people are probably can't end up doing that. So you're in custody now. How do personal, what is it, reconnaissance? Like the reconnaissance hearings. Yeah. How did the personal guarantee ones work? That's a good question. Like, have you ever had to go after someone for that family member signed for them? I mean, I, it's kind of like, I don't really deal with that world so much because it's kind of like the bail bondsman takes over from there. The bail bonds will come and and take the bond away. Like, they'll revoke the bond if the person's not showing up to court.

Theoretically, they could go after your house. If I put my house up, I don't have a house now, but at some point if I put my house up, right? Like, and I don't, and the person takes off, they're going to come after my house and will lose my house. The federal system's so interesting because when I got arrested, I didn't even meet with a bondsman. My dad just signed.

It's not like he passes over a lien to the house or anything like that. Just sign and you're out the door. Yeah, that's mind-blowing to me because you have to go through. there's so much in New York to get out on bail. The fact that like your dad just comes in, signs it and the judge is like, okay, like, we'll see you later. It is crazy just because like how different it is, you know, on the state level. Yeah, it was harder to get out on a misdemeanor in Connecticut than it was for federal felonies. Yeah, that's crazy. Now, going back to the plea deals for a second, you said that, you know, you should always offer a plea deal. I've interviewed people

and have met people that have said they've never gotten an offer before. Do you think that's, you know, prosecutors, you know, feeling some type of way about the case or? So, I mean, I'm going to, my, my knowledge is state level. So I don't know if we're, you know, if it's a federal, if it's different at the federal level. Oh, I've heard state too. Same thing. Yeah. It could be.

I mean, so there's difference between like an offer and a recommendation. So like someone could face an assault tool, just, it's an easy one, right? Two to seven. So minimum two years of state, maximum seven years. You could do probation also. but like you can recommend two years. So you could say you have to plead guilty, but we'll recommend two years.

I don't think there's very few cases where there won't at least be a recommendation. I think you have to do that. As terms of a prosecutor feeling, yeah, prosecutors will have a case be like, screw that guy, he's a bad guy, he needs to go up safe for the max, right? Like it does happen.

I don't think that's the right way to handle a case though. I think that's improper. I think that's the prosecutor who needs to separate themselves from the case and objectively look at the situation. Now, going back to speedy trial, if someone did exercise their right for a speedy trial, which most people don't,

but if they did, are you guys ready to go to trial at that point? That's a good question. And is it advantageous for the defendant to utilize that? To the second question, no, to use it. Because even if you do it, like, it's still going to take time to get through that process. And the speedy trial stuff happens on the felonies.

A felony trial is not a quick thing. Like, you know, if I'm prepping for trial, I need at least a month, at least. So if they say, okay, try this next week, I'm like, now is an attorney. I'm like, I can't, I can't do that. So that's tough. Listen, if someone's in for three years and they haven't gotten their trial and they want their trial, that's a problem. Yeah. You know, that's appellate stuff where you're going to higher courts.

If you've been in for seven months, it's not, you're not going to get any benefit from doing a speedy trial argument at that point. But do you think the benefit might be for the defendant? that the more time that passes, the more time it gives the prosecution law enforcement to find more witnesses, more, you know, more things could pop up? It does. New York's discovery laws are so strict that you have to actually, from the prosecution standpoint, you have to turn over everything within six months. You need to be ready for trial from a prosecutor's standpoint. And if you're not, the case could get dismissed. Oh, so that's quick. Yes. But just because you're ready for trial doesn't mean you're actually going to go to trial. You can now take, there's so much stuff that needs

to be done pre-trial. So you're going to have all the information you need within six months. You know, sometimes there's exceptions, but usually within six months. Now six months from the date, you charge the person and arrest them. So you could wait it out to essentially charge them to gather all the facts. Yes. And be ready to go. Yeah, but you're generally not making the arrest unless you have enough where like you're going to be able to get everything you need pretty soon thereafter. But yeah, I mean, yes, you could wait.

But then if there's mistakes, it's tough. You have to be careful how you do it. What do you think is the hardest part of the job of being a prosecutor? being a prosecutor is the workload. I think it's just you get so overwhelmed, so inundated with stuff that it's impossible to treat every case the way you want it to be treated. That's why, like I was saying before, triage. Like, you got to be able to triage stuff. So I think the workload is the toughest, toughest part.

Now, are you working closely at all with public defenders in the same, you know, state or city? As a prosecutor? Yeah. Yes. I would say in Suffolk, probably 75% of cases are with public defenders. defenders. How do you feel about public defenders? They're kind of like new prosecutors. Like, right? Like we're all fresh out of law school. We're kind of like figuring it out. I would fight with legal aid all the time. Like we would get in fights

because they were just like do stuff that I didn't agree with. Objectively, I thought was wrong. So it's similar. You're all new. You're fresh out of law school. You're trying to make your way. You know, you're working hard and stuff like that. Your attorney, who you get as an attorney, even if it's one legal aid versus another legal aid, can make a huge different in your case, which is also a problem. If you're, say, if you're, if your life, it was at stake you were fighting for your freedom, would you ride with a public defender? No, I wouldn't.

But sometimes you don't have a choice, right? Because, like, it's just a monetary thing. So if you don't have the resources to do it, then it's tough. Like, you have nothing left to do. Now, I don't want it to come off as there's no good public defenders. Because we've met some, had some great ones on the show. Correct. Correct.

There are great ones. The ones that are trial lawyers, I've been there for a long time. I'm just basing off of what some of the stuff I've seen from public defenders, and I don't want that person to be handling my case at that point. Now, I think this kind of circles back to, like, I think that the best lawyers in the criminal world are trial lawyers. So if you have a defense attorney who's tried a bunch of cases, legal aid or not legal aid, you know, that's someone who I'm going to trust because they've been there. They know the issues. They know how to work the case. Someone who's not who hasn't really tried a case. Like, I don't, you know,

I don't have the most faith in them just because they don't have the experience to do it. Do you think the system's too intertwined in the sense where, you know, you have public defenders working under the same kind of umbrella as prosecutors for the city or state? And then you have judges that are in that mix. And then you have defense attorneys that are friends with the judges and are also friends with the prosecutors. it's all, you know, combined in a way. Yeah. It can be. It can be.

I think that, you know, you have to learn to separate it. I think that the good prosecutors, the good judges, the good defense attorneys can separate that all out, right? You have to, you have a job to do. You're going to focus on that job. And you're not going to let politics get in, you know, who's paying you and who's the judge you're in front of and who the prosecutors. You're not going to let that get to.

You're going to just focus on what your job is. and, you know, I have to prosecute a case, I have to represent a client, or as a judge, I have to sit over this case. I'm going to be fair. So I think you need to, the good ones can put that aside. What's something that you've seen as a prosecutor that's been a part of the system for maybe forever that you don't agree with? The bail. I'm going to go back to the bail. I think the bail is a problem.

In certain cases, I think bail is necessary in some cases, but other cases I think that it hurts people. It's not, it doesn't, it hurts the case. It hurts the person. It hurts the defendant who's charged with a crime. I mean, you're going to sit and you're not going to be able to work on your defense. You're going to be sitting for all this time. I mean, you know, time is the most precious thing, right? Your freedom and time. You're sitting there wasting away while the case is pending and it's time that you might be able to be out of custody or building up your defense or, you know, just living your life. Now, what happens to a person that's found innocent after sitting in, say, jail or prison for a couple years? They walk right out of the courtroom. People always ask. You know, can we sue them in lawsuits? And I think some cases there can be. It just depends on that's going to come back to like was their misconduct by the prosecutor,

by the police department. Sometimes people are just innocent, right? Sometimes like, that's just how it plays out. I mean, there's a self-defense claim. There was self-defense. So someone's innocent of the crime. Now, is there something that the prosecutors can do better to expedite, you know, them getting let out early?

Like, say, looking at it and say, hey, there's no case here. let's just close this or, you know, offering no probation or prison dismissing the case? Could that happen? Yes, and it does. It does. And if that happens, and I have a client who's like the offers like probation and they're in custody, like I'm going to do everything I can to get that case advanced so we can get them out of custody as soon as possible. If a prosecutor looks at the case and they know there's issues with it, we'll have that

conversation very early on so we can resolve it so that someone's not sitting for no reason. I have seen prosecutors who the police make an arrest and the wrong. person's in custody and they'll, you know, within a day, like, hey, like, we got to get this person out of custody. So they'll advance the case, tell the judge here's the issue, and then the person will get out. Do you find that most cops want to do the right thing? Yes. I do, but I think it's like any other profession. There's good cops and there's bad cops. There's good lawyers and bad lawyers, you know, it goes around. I think that some officers could let the job get to them, right? They could, they have the problem if they might not, you know, every, every time someone says something, it's true.

Or they might have an ego that gets ahead of them or, you know, they might think it's like the Wild West. So, you know, it depends. I do think that the police try and do the right thing. And I think the body cams makes that even more clear. Like, it holds people accountable. How do, say, the older school law enforcement officials treat someone that's a young lawyer, you know, fresh on the job? That's a great question. They'll, they try and bully you around.

like they want to like like hey like you're listen i i'm i'm out two years i want to say three months in six months in out of the office i tried a case against this detective not you know he was the main detective on the case who i actually had problems with when i was in the da's office he was you know disrespectful and condescending because i'm a young prosecutor and he's been doing this for 40 years and he's the expert and i try the case against him and i got to cross-examine him and like you could tell the entire time he's like screw this kid and he's like screw this kid he doesn't know what he's talking about and he's coming at me he's being disrespectful but i went into that knowing that's how it was going to go um and i was ready to go and i got him on stuff like i was

prepared and i hit him and he you know i think he realized that but he was kind of like you know his kids screw him and i'm gonna you know he doesn't know what he's doing and i'm retired and i'm the best so they're condescending they think that they're better um i don't know if they can accept like the newer generation coming in and like hey like maybe they are good at what they do. What about the older judges or prosecutors? How do they treat the new guy in the block? Same thing. Same thing. I find that the good judges, once they see that you know what you're doing, then the respect is there. Like, then they respect you. I think that if they see, it's kind of like if you don't have that confidence, right? Like if you give them a little room and they, you know,

hey, like they don't know what they're talking about, they're going to jump on that. I think a prosecutor will. I think a judge will. But I think that the good judges and even the good prosecutors, Like, it's just a level of respect. Once they see that you know what you're doing, you can handle yourself. You know, you know how to work a courtroom. Then there's that level of respect. But until that point, yeah, they're going to talk down to you. I mean, I still get it every day on a regular basis.

Like, you know, like you're, you've just left the office. Like, who do you think you are? And like, yeah, they talk down to you and you don't know what you're talking about. And you know what? A lot of times, I want to say half the time, like stuff's new to me. So I'm figuring it out. And if I don't know something, I'm going to tell you. I don't know the answer to that.

and I'm going to go look it up after or ask someone and figure it out. I'm not going to pretend that I know something, but when I know something, I know it. Being a young prosecutor or a young attorney, how do you have like a social life? You know, when you're fresh on the job, you have to kind of prove yourself and, you know, there's that, you know, not set a loud thing that you have to outwork people and stay there late and it's not like a 40 hour a week type of job. People make it that, though. A lot of people are nine to five. I mean, I was never nine to five. I was there till six, seven o'clock every day.

You know, I wouldn't work weekends. But during the week, I was like, my whole thing was like, this is my job. You know, I don't, my goal is never to be a prosecutor. And like, just that was it. Like, I wanted to be as good as I can at it. And I was just investing in myself and my skills and my knowledge and experience. So I was putting everything I had into it. During the week, yeah, I mean, that's all I was doing was working.

A lot of people, though, don't do that. They're nine to five. So as soon as that clock hits five, they're done. They walk out the door. They put the job out of their head. And, you know, someone like that, I don't think they have the issue of, you know, back to your question of, like, a social life. And my thing was like during the week, I'm just going to grind.

And then on the weekends, it'll be when I, you know, social life and whatever. But a lot of people are nine to five. Have you ever had to deal with, say, an upset victim or complainant when the defendant got off or got offered an easy plea deal? I was a prosecutor third trial second jury trial so the facts are

it's like a roommate like this girl lives downstairs and then her landlord lives upside whatever they live in the same house and this guy she's so she's in the shower and the guy comes in the landlord comes in

pulls the curtain back and basically starts sexually assaulting her in the shower and she's you know obviously it's bad calls the police and the cops get involved, they investigated, and they make an arrest. I met with that girl a bunch of times. I believe everywhere she said.

I believe that it happened exactly how she said it. Defense attorney went with consent that they were having a relationship, which I didn't believe because the guy was married and he had kids and this girl, I just, I didn't buy it. I was young. I didn't understand the issues that went into that case and the jury was going to pick up on stuff and not like certain stuff with that case. And they ended up quitting this guy. Now I have to get on the phone and call this girl.

and say, hey, look, like, this guy's walking from this clean, they found him not guilty. Like, and she, I think, was in shock. Like, I don't think she knew what to do. I was in shock, too, because I just, I was so set. I was like, this is a clear case. Like, there's no issues. Like, this happened. So I was like, it's going to get a conviction.

And then, so that was tough. That was a tough phone call to make. Was there proof of them, like, texting or having some type of friendship before? Like, why would they let him go? The jury didn't like the police work. They thought the police did a terrible job, which I think that looking back, I think they messed up some stuff. They were kind of lazy on some of the investigation. The argument, the jury is always going to say, like, we think he did something, but there wasn't enough to show that he did it.

Like, that's their vibe. That's what they say. Like, hey, like, you know, he's definitely guilty, but he's not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. So, like, you know, that case was tough just because of that. The text messages, though, so, like, they were landlord-tenant relationship. So there would be, like, communication. There was no communication of, like, hey, like, come over, like, we're going on a date or, like, nothing like that.

But the defense attorney, you know, I didn't get along with him, but props to him because he picked, you know, he took that, spun it, and used it in his favor. Is that something you'll probably think about for a long time? You think about the girl. You think about the case. Does that stay with you? Yes, because you learn so much more from the cases you lose than the cases you win. So all the issues that happened in that case, yeah, that's going to, that case was sick to me forever, yes.

And what does it do to you mentally afterwards? Do you dwell on it for a few days or do you go on, is it right to the next one because you have so many? That case dwelt on it because it was a, they consumed my life for so long. Like I was prepping for that for weeks. You know, I had gotten the case. There was just so much going on with it. So I definitely dwelt on it. You know, I still, the issues that I picked up in that case, I still, you know, I still know and bother me to this day. So that's not a case where you put aside and just keep moving on. Do you feel that most juries in today's world get it right or are fair and actually take the time and, you know, treat it like a real job during their time as a juror? I can't speak blankly, like blanketly over everyone. I think that there are juries who do. But I think there's jurors who will say anything to get on jury select jury on the jury and then they're just going to screw you in the room, you know, in the room when they deliberate.

Just because they don't like the case or? They don't like the case. I feel like that too. all the people I talk to, like the defense attorneys, you say the jury's fair or the system, but I don't know. I just feel like you have a lot of people that are these true crime conspiracy theorists or, you know, they're just, they're out there to, they don't have anything better going on in some cases.

Yeah. No, I agree. And they'll, you know, they'll say whatever. They'll say, yeah, I can be fair and impartial or I'm not going to hold this against you. But as soon as they get in that room, they're telling everyone like, hey, like, this guy's guilty or whatever. Like a big rule as a defense attorney, you never want a juror who has been on a criminal jury in the past. Because after the trial, you go down, you know, the jury comes out of the room, you go downstairs, and the prosecutors will stand out there and tell the jury about all the bad things that they didn't hear about that guy.

So now that juror, if they put on a jury next time, they're going to know, hey, there's a lot of stuff we don't know about this guy or girl. And, you know, we should use that, factor that in. So I, you know, there's questionnaires when you get the jury. So if anyone says I've been on a criminal jury, I kick them off automatically. Even if they say the best things, I just, I kick them off because I know that they had that conversation with the prosecutors after the last trial. Yeah, from a prosecutor standpoint, what are you not looking for in a juror besides what you just mentioned?

We're not looking for, you're looking for someone who's geared towards law enforcement. You're looking towards someone who's not going to have a problem with the police. The prosecutor at trial wears the white hat, right? Like, people generally, it's gone, you know, it's gone the other way lately, but people most time defer to the prosecution, in Suffolk, at least. The city I know the other way around, but they defer. So you want someone who is engaging with you during jury selection. You want someone who's pro-law enforcement, you know, I would say like a blue-collar person who's just more supportive of the police versus someone who's not, someone who has a problem with the police, someone who's had a bad experience, right? Like, the question you'll ask is, have you ever been the victim of a crime?

And as a prosecutor, if someone's a victim of a crime and the DA's office didn't handle it well, then you want to get them off right away. From the defense side, though, like you want someone who's anti-law enforcement. You want someone who doesn't like the DA's office. You want someone who's been arrested or been charged with a crime. You want someone who just has had a bad experience with law enforcement in general because they're going to now be geared towards the defense. And how much information do you actually have on the jurors besides like age, race, gender, all. of that basic information. Prior to going up to like voir dire, like that's it.

You'll get like, and the judges, the good judges will question them and get more information out. The biggest thing that the system, state is worried about is not being fair and impartial due to prior experiences. So is there a law enforcement experience that bothers you? You know, have you had a bad dealing with police? Is there someone in your family who is part of law enforcement? Do they tell you about all the stuff they see and experience and are you going to use

that factoring in. So that's something you know, information you'll get prior to going up. And then once you actually question them, you can ask more specific questions. Now, are you hoping that most of these potential jurors have seen a news article relating to say the case? Depends from which side. As a prosecutor, I would say yes. It's defense, no, because the press just spin stuff. I mean, they don't put out fair. I didn't realize that until I started this job. I just, you know, I was, I was more like, just because someone says something it's true. This job changes my mind. Like, the press will take words. They'll skew it. They'll, whatever suits them, they'll put out that way. So, like, yeah, like, if someone sees a news article,

like, they're going to put out the juiciest stuff. And, like, that's stuff that at Trolley might not even hear about because it's not proper. So, like, no, as a defense, you want to make sure that there's no involvement with the press whatsoever. So do you think that's a prosecution tactic to leak it to the press to get it out there, make sure it's, you know, put out there right away? Is it tactic? I mean, I don't, depends on the office. And I don't think Suffolk does that. I think Suffolk, you know, they want their headlines, right?

It's a political position. So they want to show the community that they're making arrests and cleaning up the streets, however you want to put it. Other offices maybe, they do that on purpose. I don't know that Suffolk does that directly, but I'm sure there are offices that do do that. Do you think these jurors that get instructed not to research the case to actually follow those instructions? I hope so.

But, like, I mean, how hard is, it's easy to just open up your phone and get a notification of something? Like, it's very hard. I think in today's world, as a juror, to actually do that, you need to turn your phone off and not have your phone for the entire week or two weeks of trial. I mean, how many times does someone watch, say, a Netflix documentary, true crime, you're immediately Googling more details about the case. Correct.

And if someone tells you don't do it, you're going to do it even more. Right. No, I think it's a problem. I don't think that they expected, you know, when these rules were created of don't look stuff up. I don't think they knew what today's world would be like where you could look up your phone, you know, Google anything. You could be literally in the middle of trial. You could go to watch Netflix that night, see a true crime documentary, right? Watch it and be like, wait, hold on.

Like, the question I answered with the lawyers today, like, that's not the same thing anymore because, like, this changes my mind. Like, you have to live, I don't know, you have to be in a hotel. with no phones and no family members and stay there for two weeks to truly get a trial where you know they're not looking it up. So do you think it'll ever come down to that the sequestering, or do you think there's a different alternative to this, or is it just going to be one of those things where it's just going to keep, you know, leaning more to maybe a toss-up or unfair? I think so. I don't think there's resources to sequester every trial. I think it's just, it just doesn't exist. There's not enough money. It's not enough time funding. It just doesn't

exist. I think I will say this. There are people who take jury selection very seriously. It's like a civic duty and they take it, you know, they do everything they can to follow the rules and the judge is scary. They're going to listen to the judge and they don't want to get in trouble. So I think people do take it very seriously. But I think there's always the risk. And I don't think there's ever a way to get rid of it that someone's going to look stuff up. I read that Buckwell was it runaway juror or jury by John Grissom. Okay. Where he like plants himself. They hired like a professional to plant themselves onto the jury to like switch it the outcome or to have the mistrial or persuade

the other jurors because there are those lead jurors that pop up to kind of control the narrative of it. Yeah, someone who's in the room like feeding everyone and saying like, hey, I know this about this person and, you know, that doesn't make sense and they kind of run the room. Yeah. Is there a case that ever came across your office that you'll always think about or remember? from defense or prosecution? When you were a prosecutor. Yeah. So this case, so basically it's a domestic case, domestic violence, and the complainant was not cooperative.

Like she didn't want, I don't think she didn't want this guy to go to jail. I just think she wasn't really interested. She was scared of him, I think, and she didn't really want to deal with the case. So they're in a house. It's her and her son. And he comes over. to the house. And I don't know what...

There was a fight. Oh, he was accusing her... She was accusing him of cheating. So he came over to, like, deal with it. But he comes over with a Gatorade bottle of gas in the bottle and a lighter. And he goes over to the house. And, like, he goes in there.

This girl is laying on her bed. Her kid's in the house. And he goes up and he takes the gas and he throws the gas on her. And then takes the lighter and tries to light her on fire. To the point where the whole house reeked of gas and then like I guess she she had a knife maybe and like kind of came out after him after that like after he threw the gas and then came outside now the police come and this guy's holding the gatorade bottle with the gas in it he's holding the lighter and he's telling the police about how

he did all this like how he tried to light her on fire because she was accusing him of whatever um so she didn't want to come in so I was left with just the police right I couldn't prove you I can't really prove that case without her, but there's body cam. So you could see everything that went down from the body cam. So you see this girl come out. You see her going crazy. You see the guy holding the bottle. You see the cops go into the house and like, oh my God, it smells like gas. Like, you know, we can't breathe in here because the fire department comes. And I was able to go forward with just the police. Like to the point where this girl shows up to trial and wants to testify for him. And we're like, like, you can't do that because like you gave a statement saying like, you know,

she was going to lie, basically. So they had to appoint a lawyer and advise her, like, hey, you know, you can get in trouble for doing this and that. But it was just like one of those cases that was like crazy. And that's the last case I did as a prosecutor. I was like, this is, you know, I'm going to go out on a bang with this one. I ended up convicting the guy. But like, without the body cam, you're never proving that case because it's just the jury's not going to buy the police, what they're saying, but you see it all on camera. And you see this lady go crazy. Like, the cops all back up because they think she's going to attack them. Um, they're have to separate, you know, her and the guy because they're trying to go after each other

on the lawn. So that case, it was just a case where it's like she didn't want to come in. Like, I believed everything she said. This guy was a bad guy. I mean, you can't walk into a house with gas and try and light someone on fire. I think objectively it's just wrong. So it was just, it was a good case to prosecute and go out with, you know. Why do you think some of these individuals, women or male,

you know, get stuck in these relationships and can't leave. You see a lot of cases where they'll call like you were just explaining, but then go back to the person. And in some situations, you know, they'll end up dead. Yeah. So, I mean, so I was a domestic violence for 18 months. So I dealt with this. I mean, every, I would say 95% of your cases the next day that they, so the police officers make an arrest. It's a mandatory arrest policy in Suffolk. So if there's a domestic, you have to make the arrest, even if the complaint doesn't want it to happen. They'll call the office the next day saying, I don't want to go forward. I don't want him in jail. I want him back. You know, I need him, basically. And I'm saying him because most of the time it is a female complainant

with a male defendant. It's not always like that, but most of time. So they're in these cycles of like love bombing. And then like they depend on them financially. They have kids together. You know, they just, there's sometimes there's a chemical imbalance. I mean, people have these bad upbringings. And then this person shows them positive attention. They latch on to that. but then they show them negative attention, but they just don't, you know, they're just, they can't get away from it. I think if you're not in the field of the domestic violence field, you can't really grasp, like, this guy's beating you up every day, like, why are you staying with him? And I think that's a juror's problem, too. But when you speak to them and you speak to them enough, when I say them,

these complainants, like, there's all these different reasons why they can't get out of it. And the first thing, if I ever say, like, I would always say them, like, I understand that you can't leave. And they're like, no one has ever said that. to me. I'm like, because it's just a norm of like people think like, okay, like, why wouldn't you leave? Like, it doesn't make sense. But there's just all these factors. And it does make sense why they don't leave. And it's something that you have to understand and work with when you're prosecuting them. Do you find that, say, when there's no prison time in a domestic violence case, but say a restraining order and probation, is that a good deterrent? Like, how many of those cases

come back in front of you? All the time. I would say 90% of those cases because the restraining orders a piece of paper. The piece of paper is not stopping you from going to the house, from calling this person, from killing them. Like, it's not stopping anything. And a lot of, there's repeat offenders. Like, it's just, you know, we had people who would get arrested with one girl, and then that girl leaves, they get the order of protection in the case, and they're getting arrested with another girl now. Like, it's just how it goes. Do you think that stops people from coming forward or leaving? Yes, because they know if they go to the police, nothing's going to happen. So yes, it does stop. That's another factor. Like, hey, like, I'm going to go to the police,

but like, he's just going to come right back the next day. So there's nothing, you know, it's not worth it. And he's going to be that 10 times more angry when he comes back because he just spent the night in jail. Yeah. I mean, I think laws around that need to change too or just a stricter, maybe, I guess, punishment in some cases. Yeah. No, I agree. I mean, it's, it's tough when you have these people who get beat up so bad and have to call them and have to call them. I'd have to them and say like, yeah, like, he's just going to get probation. And they're like, he needs to go to jail. I'm like, there's nothing I can do.

It's like, I'm stuck within the law. There was a case where like this lady had her two kids, like our, you know, like adult kids who were living in the house and she had this boyfriend. The boyfriend, like, I mean, like really beat, like the worst bruising I've ever seen on someone, like her neck, like to the point where she went to the police department to report it and they all like, everyone kind of like jaws dropped and was like, you know, this is horrible. and the guy actually came back the next day

and the two kids chased him out and started beating him up in the middle of the road because there was their mom and he beat her up. And like that case, like I have to tell them like the kid comes in. He's like this is attempted murder. I'm like, I'm sorry like but there's nothing I can do.

Like this is at most this is maybe an assault too, right? Maybe he's going to do sometime. But like more likely than not, he's just going to get probation. So that's like, you know, it's tough on that because again, yeah, should that be attempted murder? Yeah, he probably. almost killed the mom, but there's not enough.

I mean, look at the Gabby Petito case. The cops got involved. No one got charged and then she ended up dead. Wasn't her family or his family on Long Island, someone's family? I think that she's, her family was from. It was in New York, I think, right? Smithtown, maybe, somewhere on Long Island. Okay.

And his was in Florida. Yes. And actually, but so it's Northport, Florida. There's a Northport on Long Island. So people kept thinking, but it's not. It's different, two different north ports. Okay. Why do you decide to leave the prosecutors

office? A few different reasons. I felt it was time. I knew what I was capable of. I don't think I was able to get to where I wanted to be in the DA's office in terms of trying cases and doing what I want to do. I went to work with my dad. He's my boss now. He's been doing it for so long, in my opinion, and I may be biased, but I think he's the best lawyer in the county. I think there's no one better to learn from than him. So I'm going to go work under him. He's going to teach me you know, the money is obviously a factor. And then, like, he had the Gilgo case going on. So, like, now he's starting to get ready for trial on that. And he had, he still has a very busy practice. So it's like, it was time for me to like learn how to run the practice so that he can

focus on the trial. So, like, the timing just like made sense. You have a three year commitment, though. So I left like, you know, maybe like a week after the commitment because I was like, it's time to go. So you did three years at the prosecutor's office? And your dad has a defense office? Yeah, yeah, so he's a defense attorney. So I work under his practice now. Oh, and they represented the Gilgo murders? He did, yeah. Oh, wow.

Yeah. That must have been interesting just to see and hear about. Yes, it was crazy. It was just seeing all the stuff he was dealing with. I mean, like, he would, you know, there's press as defense attorneys because, like, people love crime, right? Like, you know, here we are. Like, people love to hear about all this stuff. It's juicy.

And, you know, so he would be on the news, you know, on a big case. and stuff. But like when this case comes in, like the first day that he's, this guy's arraigned, that Rex is arraigned in court, like there's like a hundred reporters there. And it's like a press conference. Like they're swarming him. And like he's been on TV. I said, but like never like that. Never where like you're getting rapid questions and you don't even know where to look because there's so many people. So like he's thrown into that environment and, you know, he obviously got much better at it. But I remember telling him the first time. It's like, it was crazy. Then he progresses in case more. And there's all this discovery and like every court date's a big deal, right? There's the same,

that same press conference, not that volume, but you're having a press conference every single court date. So you're in court, you know, handling the case. Then you go outside and there's 50 reporters who are just going to hit you with all these questions. So I think for him it was a side of being a lawyer that he never experienced. And this was the first time where he's like, you know, more of like the publicity aspect of it. Because I think he's more like I'm a lawyer. I want to advocate. I want to try cases. I don't need to be in public image, but you have no choice on this case. So, like, he kind of had to learn to adapt to that. Well, if your dad ever wants to do an interview, we definitely got to have him on the show. That would be really cool. Definitely. Now, when you see your dad go through a situation

like that and it's public and it's a case like that, does that make you think about, you know, what you would do when you eventually have a case like that that comes in your hands and also what kind of cases you choose to represent? Yeah, definitely. I try and watch how he does everything, how he handles the press, right? Like, you know, you field questions a certain way. So, like, the press will, again, they skew stuff. Like, they're going to take words and leave out others. So, like, they'll ask a question.

And, like, if you don't like the question, you can kind of just, like, redirect over, like, kind of just answer it however you want. I think he learned that. And it's a very useful skill because, like, you can't answer all their questions. So I've done maybe, like, one similar case where, like, five microphones are in my face and they're doing that same kind of thing. So I was like, I had that in my head, like, okay, you know what? If I don't really know the answer of that question or I don't want to answer, I can kind of just like pivot back over and just say whatever I want to say.

It's almost like you're not even responsive to them. You're just kind of saying what you want to say. What do you think from a moral standpoint, though, you personally? Could you represent someone that was convicted or, I mean, accused of dealing with, say, pretty bad crimes? Yes. everyone deserves a fair trial. I think that you, that's what makes the system what it is.

I think you need to, you know, there's rules for a reason and there's a fair trial and, you know, standards and stuff. It's definitely tough, but someone's got to do it. And, you know, the thing is, like, I wasn't there. I don't know what happened, right? All I have is the evidence in front of me. I'm going to review it.

I'm going to put the best defense on for this guy that I possibly can. And I'm going to make sure that they don't have to do it again, right? And sometimes you know going into the case, like this guy's a really bad guy. It's a bad guy. It's a bad guy. And the prosecution's probably going to put this guy away for 20 years, right? He's going to get convicted. He turned down a, you know, a very good offer. He's going to get convicted. But if they're going to do it, if they're going to put my guy away for 20 years, they need to do it the right way. And I'm the one standing next to him against the judge, against the

DAs, against everyone, making sure that they do it the right way. Have you thought about, you know, what that would be like for you one day, because I'm sure a case like that will come across your desk as you advance in your career. I mean, I would hope so, something like that, but I don't know if we'll ever see. Well, not even to that level, maybe press-wise, but just in general. Or say, like, it's, you know, you went after the guys that went after or that, you know, abused woman or, you know, raped women or whatnot. Have you thought about being on the other side of that, depending those individuals? So the first case that I did out of the DA's office that I tried, I second sat. And I think.

think they said, so there's a bureau, child abuse domestic violence bureau, and they handle all the child abuse stuff. So this guy, I think this was the worst case they said ever came through that bureau. And it just happens that I was friendly with the lawyer. I said, hey, can I second see you? I need to get some experience. And he's like, sure. So this guy was, he had like relationships with like seven or eight different women. And he's having kids with all these women. And what he would do is he would go outside of like DSS shelters, like homeless shelters and rehabs. And these people, these girls who would be have addictions and they would come out. And he would say, hey, I have a place for you to live.

Just come, you know, come live and, you know, give me $200 a month, whatever it was. And he does that. And now he starts having sex with all of these people in the house, all these girls, and they're all getting pregnant and they're all having kids. And now he's then sexually abusing all of these kids, right? like, you know, there's, and there's boys, too.

So there's two sons that were in the room. He's going up to the room. He's sexually abusing the sons. And this happens in like 1995, you know, early 2000s. They don't report it till like recently, maybe like two years ago or something, whenever this came in.

And now they have to prosecute and go forward. Like this guy was probably one of the worst humans you'll ever come into contact with because like he just, he saw these women, took advantage of them, and they took advantage of their kids. just cat and it's his own kids right it's his own blood um and one of the victims was the was

two years younger than me and so she you know she he had taken her in the truck and it abused her in the truck i now my first cross-examination as defense attorney i have to get up and cross this girl about the horrible things that her father did to her right and like she's like very close again she's close in age and it's like i'm she's testifying on direct and i'm sitting there and i'm just like how how am I going to do this? Like this is horrible. Like what like like I just I don't know. I don't know. But you get up there and you just you just do it right. You have your you have your points you need to hit and you know what if attorneys did that let's just say you didn't cross that girl or the attorneys did a bad job like that case is going to come back and they're going to have to

try it again and now they're all going to have to relive it. So I think that you have to kind of treat it that way. You have to say like look I know this is the result. You know morally this is tough but I just I got to do my job. I have a job to do, take it very seriously, and I need to do it. What do you say to some people of the public that, you know, consider that defense attorney just as evil as the person accused of the crime? So I've had people come up to me and say, how do you live with yourself? Look, everyone hates defense attorneys until you need one, right?

When you need one, you want a good one there. You don't, you know, hey, that'll never happen to me and, you know, you're evil. But it's like people say stuff, you get arrested, right? All it takes is someone to go on paper. say something and they could skew it a different way now you get arrested. It's again, I wasn't there. I don't know what happened. I have a job to do.

And I'm going to do that job. That's what I get paid to do, take it extremely seriously. I think someone who says something like that, I think there's ignorance there because everyone's entitled to a fair defense. Everyone's entitled to a fair trial. And you never know what situation you're going to find yourself in one day. Because that guy, maybe one day he's going to, you know, and now he's going to be like, I need an insertion.

and be like, well, didn't you just say that I'm evil and you don't like me? And now you need me all of a sudden. So like you have to kind of, you have to put that aside, I think, and just focus on what you need to focus on. Do you think that being a prosecutor makes you a better criminal defense attorney? Absolutely. I think that you need to go to the DA's office first. Now, there are attorneys who I know and probably one of the best attorneys have ever seen cross-examine someone was, I don't think he ever was a prosecutor. I think he started at legal aid and then went out on his own.

I think he's an exception. I think that you need to, I think it's very important because you learn how the police think. You learn how they, you know, what they do. You learn the issues in your case first, you know, with behind the scenes kind of stuff. And it's also like, you know, you handle all these cases and you get so much experience and exposure. Again, it's not to say that just being defense doesn't mean you can't get really good. I just think that it's important to be a prosecutor first and then switch to the other side. Yeah, I think it makes you more well-rounded, too.

Yeah. I would rather have an attorney that was a prosecutor, too, especially in the same county or area. I feel like that's advantageous. It is. And, like, my last day was, like, a Friday. And then Saturday I started. And I was in, like, our arraignments, you know, getting assigned cases that next day. And I'm going against, like, you know, my, like, buddies who I was just in the same office with.

And you're like, you know, like, on the record, you're doing. And then afterwards, they're like, hey, like, good job. And you're kind of messing around. But like, yeah, so it's, and you know everyone, right? Like, you know, it's tough if you go into a county where no one knows you because they, they don't, you know, they kind of look down to you and they don't give you the respect or the time of day because they're like, who is this person? That's just how the legal community can be. So if you're with these same people, it's like, yeah, it's night and day.

Do you see doing, do you see yourself doing this for the next 20, 30, you know, 40 years? Yes. I love what I do. It's the best. So, yeah, I definitely would stay with it. Yeah. What lesson do you think your career has taught you so far? So far is, again, I think it goes back to like that, you know, you have everyone,

you have to look at everyone's circumstances, right? It's not so black and white. It's not just like what's on a piece of paper. It's not just what someone says on a statement or swears out, right? Like, there's so much more to it. And I think you need to learn to look at the bigger picture and not just be so, like, have tunnel vision on stuff. You need to like, it's broad.

You have to look at, right, like someone gets arrested. Like, there's a reason that, you know, they have substance abuse issues or, you know, they're going through a bad time with their family or like, you know, they, their wife just got a diagnosis for cancer. Like, there's things that are going on that you have to look at and you have to have the entire situation. You can't just be so focused on like the paperwork in front of you or what the cop says. Like you got to look at the broad situation.

Well, Chase, I appreciate you coming on the show today. This is a lot of fun and very insightful. episode. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. Yeah, definitely. Thank you.