Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a School Shooter | Jon Romano

Episode Date: February 12, 2023

Jon Romano walked into his high school with a shotgun when he was 16 years old and fired off several rounds. Sentenced to 20 years in a New York State Prison, Jon is released and then violently attacked by a sword-wielding assailant. Connect with Jon:TikTok: JonSeekingPeaceInstagram: JonSeekingPeaceYouTube: JonSeekingPeace Connect with Ian Bick: https://www.ianbick.com/Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos & more:https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/joinPowered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You'll be that friend's friend, but with rewards. What are you waiting for? Expedia, the one place you go to go places, terms apply. My name is Ian Bick, and you're tuned in to Locked in with Ian Bick. The following video contains material that may be harmful or traumatizing to some viewers. On this week's episode, I'm interviewing John Romano

in 2004, when John Romano, was 16 years old, he walked into his high school with a shotgun. When a team walked into Columbia High and fired off a shot in his second floor hallway, he was ultimately sentenced to 20 years in a New York State prison for an attempted school shooting. We all make mistakes, experience failure, and fall down in life. But if you decide to get back up and use it as fuel to your fire, you can choose to not let it define you. You can make it through to the other side and turn it into an opportunity. I went from owning a popular nightclub, when I was 19 years old to becoming a federal inmate by the time I was 21.

Join me, Ian Bick, as I interview people from all over the country who have experienced the rock bottom of the American justice system. John, thanks for coming today. I'm really looking forward to this interview. I think you have a very powerful message to send to people. There's a lot of individuals who have been in your position before that have or are currently in the same position that you were in. and it's a very traumatic story.

It's definitely hurtful to others, but I think that there can be good in your story, and I'm looking forward to diving into it today. Yeah, thank you. It's very important for me to be able to talk about my story and to be able to share. It's obviously a very extreme matter of events, but I think that it can be healing to talk about it

for myself and also, for others to get a better understanding of what happened, why it happened, and how can we prevent other things like it, whether it's the story of the shooting I committed when I was 16 years old, or then the, you know, after I come home from prison and I'm doing well, but I become the victim myself of a horrible, tragic, you know, senseless act of violence. But again, this is something where we talk about it, we talk about what led to it and how can we prevent it in the future. Let's start at the beginning of your story. What's your childhood? Like, how are you growing up?

What's your family like? So my childhood and my family, it seems from the outside like most people. My parents did divorce when I was four years old. But behind closed doors, sadly, I was sexually abused growing up. Five, six, seven years old, the abuse was happening. And I didn't know what it was, obviously. This is by a parent or a relative? No, this was by, yeah, this was by a relative.

So when the abuse is happening, it's obviously, like I said, don't know what it is. It was explained to me basically that this is what some people do when they love each other. And that's what I took it as. I even remember when it stopped. And again, it probably stopped when I was about seven years old. But I remember thinking that I had done something wrong for it to have stopped because it had been explained to me that, Again, this is what people who love each other do.

So, but... At what point did you realize that that was wrong? So it wasn't until years later that it became something in my minds where, you know, 12, 13 years old, you become more sexually aware. And I realized what had happened to me, obviously, was something horrible. The abuse that happened to me was something that I kind of took on my shoulders as if I had done something wrong. as if there was something wrong with me. And sadly, I never opened up about it.

I never told people about it even then. It wasn't until years later when I was in prison that I talked about being sexually abused and realized that it wasn't something that I had done wrong. It was something wrong that had been done to me. And after this happens, going into elementary school and middle school and even the beginning of high school, are you bullied at all?

Are you picked on? So bullying wasn't an issue for me. I'll be honest, I was a kid that was pretty sociable. Growing up, I played Little League for like six, seven years. I love to play sports. I was trying out different things. I played soccer for a little bit. My even, like fourth grade, I was in basketball.

You know, I'm a tall guy. And I was always one of the bigger kids growing up in school. And bullying was never really an issue for me because of that, because of my size and because of the fact that people just kind of told me sometimes I have that that gentle giants. I don't know, you know, some people just say that I have that kind of gentle giant feel about me where people might be afraid of me from the distance if they don't know me, but when they get to be up close, they realize like, no, I'm a good guy. What age do you start to have to have thoughts about either harming yourself or harming others?

And what is that triggered by? So my depression really kicked in when I was 14 years old. And I struggled a lot internally. And I didn't express it. And I didn't let people know what was going on. I was probably triggered a lot by, I think, a little bit of just puberty and chemical and balanced mixed in again with that looking back on the sexual abuse that I had endured at a younger age and being confused and hurt by that abuse.

And I took it internally. I did end up reaching out and telling my mom, I said, something is wrong with me. I need some help. I need some therapy. How old are you when you said that? So I was 15. I just turned 15 when I began going to therapy. And unfortunately, when I went to therapy, I didn't even open up fully then.

I spoke about a lot of superficial issues. You know, the I wish my grades were better. you know, I wish that I had more time to spend with my friends. I was afraid to open up to my therapist about the things that were really going on within me that really were truly hurting me. And because of that, because of that therapy that only took care of these surface level issues, I didn't get the help that I needed. Instead, I was able to better present on the outside as if things were going well when they were not. So you're 15 years old, you go to your parent, your mom, and you say, mom, I'm struggling with mental illness and I need help. What is her reaction? And what does she do?

So my mom was wonderful when I told her that I was struggling with some mental health issues. She brought me right to first my general physician because we were able to get in there super quick. And he was able to say, okay, you know, we need to get you into therapy. And he was able to. to prescribe me with some antidepressants right away, just temporary until I saw a psychiatrist. And my mom was wonderful helping me get into therapy and making sure that as much as I could feel that I could open up with her, you know, she did her best to make me feel that I could open up to her. But unfortunately, at 15 years old, not too many teenage boys open up to their mothers. And I wish I had opened up to either her, to my therapist, or to somebody else, and gotten the help that I needed. Did you try telling anyone that the therapy wasn't working? I know you were making an effort to go to the therapy, but was there ever any outreach to anyone at the school, your mom, saying, hey, I don't think this is working?

So when I was going in therapy and all of this was going on, people were kind of understanding that I was struggling, and yet people were also like congratulating me on making that effort to better myself and to do better. And when that happened, I actually became afraid to then tell them that it wasn't really working. You know, I didn't want to disappoint my mother or my friends who saw me working on myself and trying to get better. and I was afraid to tell all of them that, you know what, I do feel better at times, but I'm still really struggling. Was it publicly known to your friends and even the school that you were struggling with your mental health? So, yeah, I had also made attempts at my high school to let them know that I was struggling with depression, clinical depression, and anxiety that I was on medication, that I needed extra help and support while I was in school. because, again, when I was growing up, my grades were good. But when I started to really fall into my depression, everything fell apart, and my grades slipped.

And I asked for help at my high school and said, listen, this is what's going on with me. And I could use some extra support. Unfortunately, mental health was not taken seriously and still is not taken seriously in most places, including schools. And my school basically told me, what do you want us to do about it? And I said, there's things in place that you have on paper to help people out because clinical depression is also a learning disability. It affects your memory. It affects your concentration.

And I just wanted some extra help to get my grades up and to continue on with my education. And unfortunately, they told me basically no, until my family got an attorney involved. And then I was able to get some extra help in school. Now, even with that extra help, about a year later, February 2004, you walk into the school with a shotgun. How do you get access to the gun? So I had access to the gun because my mother had been believing that I was doing a lot better. She was seeing me progressing and doing well on the outside.

And even with my therapist and my psychiatrist, they both told my mother that I was doing great. and when one of my brothers had brought up the idea of going hunting and spending time together, you know, on the firing range, my mother went to my therapist and my psychiatrist about, is it okay for him to have access to firearms? And they said yes. They said, you have your son back. Those were the exact words that my psychologist said to my mother, you have your son back. And for her, that was kind of like she'd been so afraid of what I might do to myself because she knew that I was suicidal.

And my mom hearing those words felt a weight off her shoulders. And so when the discussion of firearms being in the house came up, she felt yes. You know, if the psychologist and psychiatrists are saying it's okay, then she felt okay having a shotgun for self-defense for her. and if I was going to go hunting with my brothers, you know, then I could use it then. Do you think the psychologist only signed off on it because you were telling them that you were doing okay? Yes. So I don't blame my psychologist for saying that it was okay for me to have access to firearms because I was not fully opening up and I was not letting him know just how severe my issues were. So again, he was seeing the outside.

And, yeah, we were having some in-depth discussions at times, but there was no real signs that the trouble was still going on within me. So you had open access to this gun, the morning of the shooting, you were able to just go and grab it? Well, my mother had it locked up, right? Because my mother not only spoke to the psychiatrist and psychologist of mine about me having firearm access, She also spoke to the local police and just said, hey, I just want to know, like, what's the law? What's the procedures for having firearms in the household when you have kids? And they told her, just make sure that it's locked up. And it was.

But unfortunately, I also ended up finding out where she hid the key. And so that's what happened that morning of the shooting was I knew where my mother kept the key to unlock and get access to the shotgun. Did you tell any one of your plans that you were going to be? to bring a gun into the school? No. I did not tell anybody about my plans. Nobody really had any idea. Everybody was called off guard after the shooting. My friends included because there was no warning signs until it was too late until I was already in the school with the shotgun is when I texted a few of my friends and said, I'm in here with a gun. Get out. What's going on in your mind the morning of the shooting? What's your plans? What you're thinking? And then what's going through?

your mind on your way to the school itself. Yeah. So the morning of the shooting, I had put together a suicide note and described some of my beliefs of my own struggles and why my life was the way it was. I spoke about some of my anger, some of my frustrations, and how I wanted to be normal, but I didn't believe that I ever would be, and that I was upset. with other people. Now, my intentions that morning was not to kill, but to be killed. And I made sure that when the shooting happened, I was not aiming at anybody when I did fire a few rounds above people's heads. And I know that I terrorized them that day. Numerous people. Classmates, staff, teachers were terrorized by my actions that.

day and they are scarred to this day from what I did to them. John, you couldn't have though taken the gun and maybe go somewhere out in the public, not into a school? Like why the school? Why did you pick the school? So I picked the school for mostly because my frustrations in life were at school. I could have stayed home and ended my own life. I could have like you said, gone into any type of public place. and ended my life and scared people and terrorized people. But that morning I was upset and I was angry with the school administration, with people there who I felt let me down when I had asked for help there. Did you have your mind made up days before or was it a heat of the moment that morning you woke up and said,

hey, I'm going to go into my school with a gun? So I had thought about doing the shooting at other times before I even had access to a gun. But that morning, it was more of a heat of the moments like the night before I had thought about it. And I had actually started writing out the suicide note the night before. And I'll be honest, too, is I wanted to stop myself also. I was prescribed Xanax and I was told like this is to help with my anxiety with some of that internal, uh, frustration. and anger going on. And so I used to take Xanax to help me relax.

And I was popping extra Xanax that night and that morning because I was trying to stop myself. And I could have gone other ways to stop myself from committing the shooting. I could have opened up. I could have told my mother. I could have done so much to stop myself. But I didn't.

Do you ever think about the consequences that morning? Like a lot of times when someone, does something, any type of crime, sometimes they weigh, what are the consequences of my actions? Did that ever cross your mind that morning? The morning of the shooting, I didn't think I would live to see the end of the day. So there was no fear of consequences. There was no fear of prison. There was no fear of what would happen for the rest of my life.

All I was thinking about is, this is it. I will be dead soon. the pain and everything will be over. And that was my focus. How do you manage to get the gun into the school? So I drove in late that morning. You were driving at this time. I was driving.

And how old are you're 16? I was 16. I had my driver's permit. And I drove myself in. And I showed up and I knew I had to blend in to get in. Did you research like the Columbine shooting or any other? shooting before, how did you know what to do? So, I mean, I had seen, you know, plenty of information out there about other school shootings on Columbine and others. I wouldn't say that I had researched

what they had done to, you know, pull off the shootings that they had committed. But I was aware of it, as I think a lot of teenagers were aware of what they had done. But my mindset was that of blending in. I drove myself into school that morning. I went in with a backpack and I had the shotgun in its case, which is a, you know, one of those thick black cases that from a distance, somebody would probably think I had an instrument in there. And I knew that I could walk in and nobody would think twice when they saw me. So you walk in, do you have an intended target walking into the building?

No. When I walk in, I pretty much. just head into one of the nearer bathrooms. And I go into the bathroom and take the gun out of its case. And it's fully loaded. And I just end up just sitting there in the bathroom stall. And for a while, I thought about just ending my life right there in that bathroom stall. In that moment, you still have a chance to put it away and go home and maybe no one would have

ever found out about it or you could have reached out for more help. What made you decide to leave that bathroom stall that day and carry on with the shooting with your plans? I wanted to leave that school, but I believed that once I had been in there, I felt trapped. I felt I'm, you know, I felt that I was beyond the point of no return, that I could get caught leaving with the gun, even though I got in with a gun. And that's the only time that I thought, like, I was afraid of getting caught. So I also believed if I did not go through with this, if I did not end my own life that day, that nothing in my life would change.

The depression, the emptiness in my life, the feelings of meaninglessness would continue. And I felt like, you know what, this has to happen. So you leave the bathroom. What happens next? Talk me through the next few minutes. So as I'm leaving the bathroom, I have the shotgun in my hands down at my waist. And as I'm walking out, a student is actually coming in. And we almost bump into each other. That's how close he was to me. And he, uh, he freezes. just staring at me. Wide-eyed, and he says, this can't be real.

And he turns and runs for his life. And he runs into the first classroom. And he, I later learned from police reports, he runs into this classroom, slams the door behind him, grabs a bookshelf, and just pushes it. What's going on in your mind when this is happening?

I don't see that. I just see him disappear from view around the corner. You start firing into the air? No, I come out into the hallway and I turn the corner and I see two other students. And they're at the other end of the hallway, a good 40 feet away from me. And that is when I, you know, I aimed the gun up into the, you know, I wouldn't say straight up into the air, but I aim it way above them and I fire. Do you think that they were thinking you were pointing it at them?

Yes, definitely. They thought that their lives were about to end. And I know that. And so you fire the gun. Mm-hmm. Twice. You fire it twice and then the assistant principal sneaks up behind you and tackles you? No.

So I fire the gun twice. Those two students, they, of course, they run. I think there was a stairway. right there and they run and they leave and I just walk around and most- Is the fire alarm going off? What's the scene like? No, it's quiet. It's quiet. Everybody, you know, that is in the classrooms in that hallway that heard the guns, the gun going off, they know what's happening. Are you trying to get into any classrooms? So I remember there was a couple of classrooms. I'm just walking.

I didn't try to enter into any of them. The doors were closed. I remember the first door I saw that was open. I walked over, and I just stood in the doorway, and I see all the students. They're on the floor trying to hide behind their desks. And, you know, the teacher is at the front of the classroom, and I still remember.

she had a table, you know, kind of in the center in front of the chalkboard, and the teacher is underneath. And she was the only one that said anything. And she just cried out. She cries out, oh, Lord. And everybody's just looking at me. And I know that they're looking at me like I'm about to kill them. And I know that they still see me to this day. just as I can remember seeing them. Now what happens next? I turn around and I walk out. And I walk, I'm back in the hallway and I'm just walking down the hallway.

And that is when the assistant principal, after I've been walking in the hallway, he came up behind me. And, you know, because when he had heard the gunshots, he had been in his office a little ways. off and apparently he wasn't sure there was some construction going on and he wasn't sure if it was something, you know, from construction, somebody setting off, you know, firecrackers or something. But when he saw me and I was walking away from him, so he was behind me, I didn't see him, he comes, runs up behind me and he grabs the barrel and, you know, the stock and he squeezes me in between the gun and himself. And, you know, I'm shocked at this point.

Obviously, I didn't see him. So I start trying to, like, you know, I'm pushing and I'm trying to get him off me. And he's calling out to, there was a teacher who was running up behind us to help him. And I didn't know. And all I know is I'm trying to get this guy off of me. And unfortunately, my finger had bent on the trigger. And I start trying to, after I'm pushing the gun away, I start trying to shake him off my back. And that's when the gun goes off.

So the gun goes off, he gets shot. No, not him. It wasn't him. It was the teacher who had been coming up behind us, was shot in the leg. He had been hit in the shin. And you saw this happen? No.

You didn't realize that? I did not even know that I had shot somebody until later on, because as the struggle goes on for the gun, eventually I give up. I literally just let go of the gun. And I remember I just kind of put my hands up like that. and I say, fine, I give up. How long until the police come in when you're giving up?

It's just you, the principal, and then the wounded teacher there. Well, the wounded teacher had, you know, he had jumped, you know, into a classroom. So even as the assistant principal disarms me and we're in the hallway, and he ends up putting me into like a little teacher's office. And I still hadn't seen... So he takes custody of you and he's got you on an office. So he's kind of like, you know, grabs him by the back of the next. and puts me in the office.

How long until the police come? So the police showed up to the school probably, I want to say, within five minutes. And then eventually the ATF at the time had kind of like a SWAT team. And they showed up. I was already in cuffs on my way out when they showed up to the school. What's going through your mind when you're placed into the cop car? and on your way to the police station or wherever they're taking you. Are you instantly regretting your decision?

No, I'll be honest. I did not. During the shooting and after the shooting, I was so disconnected. I was numb. I was, you know, I hate to use the word or the phrase out-of-body experience, but it was like I wasn't even there. I was just kind of witnessing it rather than participating. And as they're putting me into the cop car and I see, you know, the SWAT team showing up in my minds, no, I was just disconnected.

I was just there. How are the officers treating you at the station? And what's the booking process like for you? Yeah. So when the police did show up and when they put me in cuffs and everything, they roughed me up a little bit, I had a bloody nose. They broke my glasses and everything. And so when I got to the police station, though, what they did was they isolated me with only one officer who would be the one to then basically interrogate me. And he started to put on the good cop show, right?

Oh, I'm sorry about, you know, the nose and everything here. Let's help clean you up. Do you need anything to drink? And at 16 years old in New York State at that time, I was allowed to waive my Miranda rights. and with no parents, no guardian, no lawyer presence, it was one of the only states at the time, and I don't know if it's changed or not. I was allowed to waive my Miranda rights as a minor and be questioned by the police. And you told them everything?

Well, I had started to answer questions, and what happened was, I'm answering questions, their writings, you know, the one guy is writing something, and, you know, he basically reads it off to me as he's writing. and I believed him, right? I'd grown up in a household where you believe the police. They're there to help you. And even in a situation like this, as terrible as it was, I believe that the police were there for justice. And eventually another police officer comes in and says,

hey, you know, an attorney just called to represent him. Questioning has to stop. Do you get a public defender or a hired attorney? hired attorney, you know, called to represent me. And so all questioning had stopped at that point. But unfortunately, one of the things that happened was I signed my life away. I signed a statement that I never read. Own it all.

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Real California milk. Please, you know, like I said, read it to me, quote unquote, read it to me. But they, of course, when they read it to me, they read off something that was a bit different than what was actually on paper. So I sign, you know, they tell you sign here, sign here, initial here, initial there, and I did that. What's the first conversation like with your parents after they find out you committed a school shooting? So when I was in county jail, I'd already been booked, processed, and it was then one of the corrections officers came to myself and said,

hey, if you want, we'll take you to a phone and we'll allow you to call your family. How long into this was it? So that was that night. So the same night. So I was not allowed when I was in the police department. I wasn't allowed to talk to anybody. I wasn't allowed a phone call. I wasn't even allowed to talk to the attorney who had called.

But when I was in the county jail already booked and put into the block, the, like I said, a corrections officer came. They ended up taking me. I didn't even use, like, the phone that's set up, you know, inside the block. They took me to an office and allowed to call my mother. And, of course, my mom was just in tears. I'm sure she had seen the news, so she knew. Yeah, she had been, my mother had been at work when the shooting happened.

And she ended up, you know, people start saying like, hey, there's this talk on the radio. And, uh, yeah. So my mother found out while she was at work. What does she say to you in that initial conversation? That night, I don't even really remember. The first few days are somewhat of a blur, but I remember her just crying nonstop. I can tell you, I remember the first visit I had with my family

was, I think, the next day my family was able to come, and my mother had never abused me before, but she told me she's like, I want to hug you, but I also want to hit you. And that said a lot that my mother was somebody who is a very loving person, but the anger in her, you know, was obviously beyond belief for what I had done. Do you end up going to trial or do you plead guilty? What are the next few months after your initial arrest like for you? So the next few months after my arrest and while I was in county jail, my attorney is letting me know basically like we're doing everything we can to represent you, to fight for you.

I had been charged and indicted with three counts of attempted murder, 82 counts of reckless endangerment and one count of assault. It's obviously, it's a very large indictment. I was facing 75 years in prison. which in New York State would have meant I would have had to serve 63 years before I had any chance of getting out. So I ended up eventually pleading guilty for the reasons of wanting to avoid trial because I believe that, you know, the trial would have been nothing more than a media circus. And with facing 75 years, I was not really willing to fight for myself. and I took a plea for a 20-year sentence, and I pled guilty to three counts of attempted murder and six counts of reckless endangerment. How much time goes by between the day you're arrested and the day of your sentencing hearing?

So I was sentenced right around Christmas time. So this would have been, you know, about 11 months almost. So it was a pretty quick process. Yeah, so after the shooting, it was about 11 months. until I was sentenced. How much time did you ultimately get sentenced to after committing a school shooting? So I was sentenced to 20 years for the shooting, and out of that 20 years, I had to do 17. What is the sentencing hearing like? Are there a lot of victims speaking?

Do you make a statement? Are your parents there? Is your mom there? So the sentencing was filled with a lot of my family, friends, and also, a lot of the people who had been hurt, you know, who were going through a lot of psychological trauma and, you know, people who wanted to see me and make sure that I was being sentenced, you know, 20 years in prison. So the district attorney at my sentencing did not allow my victims to speak. She basically read off their victim impact statements. I don't know why she did that, but that was the way it went. Interesting. Now, what's it like for your mom going through this whole process? I'm assuming it's a small town or a small area. How are people treating her?

Yeah. It's got to be very traumatic for her to go through this. Definitely. So after the shooting, my mother definitely isolated for a bit. And it was hard. But there was also a lot of people who were telling my mother. and saying, thank God nobody was seriously injured, thank God nobody was killed. We hope that whatever Johnny did this for, that he gets the help that he needs, and that something, you know, can come of this. And there was definitely a good amount of support for my mother, which I'm very thankful for because she did nothing wrong. I did. So you're sentenced to 20 years in prison. You get brought to the prison that you're going to be at.

What's it like to be in prison as not only a young white kid, but a young white kid that's, you know, convicted of a school shooting, attempting to injure in another prisoner's eyes, other kids. How do you fare in prison? So again, being in prison in New York State at that time, they didn't care that I was 16 when I committed the crime and 17 when I was sent to state prison. I was housed with adults at 17 years old when I went into the New York State prison system. But everybody knew who I was. And in the crazy world that prison is, nobody really cared. They didn't treat you any different. They didn't treat me any difference because although we say that yes, you know, I was there. I traumatized numerous people, including children. When I was in prison, they also realized I was a child too. I still

had the baby face at that time. And when I'm walking the yard, everybody can tell this kid is young. He doesn't look like everybody else, obviously. I didn't fit in, obviously. But at the same time, nobody was targeting me. You had a high profile case. They didn't think to put you in solitary or any type of special housing unit or admin. Yeah, I was temporary placed in. a high-profile unit where I was housed with some other high-profile individuals that were either, you know, celebrities of some sorts who had been locked up or people who were, again, very high-profile media cases. I was, you know, I was in a block with a couple of people who had been on death row here in New York State, because when the death row was taken basically

off the block, you know, they no longer allowed death sentences here in New York State. They housed them in this housing unit where I was. So I was with guys who were, you know, serial killers, people who had killed, you know, several individuals in one instance. Actually, one of my first workout partners was an individual who killed three people. during a robbery and he's you know never getting out but it was interesting actually so the story with him is we almost got into a fight one day we are in the program area of the prison and some people are lining up because they had like a early go-back leaving the program area to go back to the block and so he's standing in a doorway

waiting to go back and I'm coming through the doorway and I'm kind of like like, you know, just squeezing by him saying, excuse me, he doesn't hear me say, excuse me. He just kind of feels like my presence as I'm brushing by him. And so he kind of does the whole, like, you know, what the fuck is wrong with you, kid? You know, kids these days, you don't have any respect. You need to say something when you come and buy. Don't come by me like that again. And we start exchanging words.

But somebody else that he knew came by was like, listen, I heard the kids say, excuse me. You know, he's all right. And so he kind of gives me that death stare of like, yeah, okay, whatever, you know, and I walk away. And two days later, this guy comes to me and he tells me, you know what, I was in the wrong. I'm sorry, I shouldn't have been like that. You know, if you need help with anything, let me know. And so this guy who had been on death row, and I didn't know that at that time for killing three people, I tell him, listen, I need somebody to work out with. I need to start lifting weights. And sure enough, I start working out with him.

Did you spend any time in solitary at all while you're in prison? So during my 17 years in prison, the biggest trouble I ever got into, I did 60 days in solitary confinement for helping start a protest within the prison where in the summer of 2018, there were nationwide protests going on within the prison systems, mostly protesting down south where there is forced labor for little to no pay. and we're talking about private prison industries where these companies are making millions of dollars off of inmates' labor. And so there was a lot of protests going on, and I helped raise awareness and tell people this is what's going on. We need to do so. And they lock you on the shoe for it. Yeah, because eventually after the protest died down, there's an investigation, and people tell. So a couple people on my block pointed the finger at me saying that I was one who was very verbal.

and letting everybody know about what was happening around the country and that we should be doing it also. So I was sentenced to 60 days solitary. And that was the most trouble I got into while I was in prison. Over the course of the 17 years you're in prison for, do you get the mental health treatment? Do you need? Do you think the prison helped rehabilitate you in any way?

So as far as rehabilitation goes in prison, there's not much. There is therapeutic services available. But like even when you go and see a therapist inside, they're basically just, you know, you've got a CO sitting right out the door. You don't have a lot of time to really talk one-on-one with them. Now, during your time in prison, did you ever get the chance to reflect on not only the people you physically hurt, but the people that were emotionally and mentally hurt from years to come that are probably still hurt to this day because of your actions? Yeah. What did you think about? So I use my own sense of guilt and shame to power me forward because I do know that there are numerous people who were psychologically terrorized by my actions that day.

And I use that to really focus on, you know what, I have to do something good. I have to somehow, I can't make it right, I can't undo what I've done, I can't take away their pain, but I have to do something right. And for a long time, I had torn myself down and believed that nothing I could ever do in life would be of any meaning or purpose. But now, because I'm really trying to focus on them, all those people that I remember seeing that day

and all the people I didn't see that day, but were still hurt by my actions. I'm doing this because I don't want any other community to go through what they went through. I don't want any other kids to go through what they went through. I don't want any other parents to go through what those parents went through. During your 17 years in prison, is your family supportive? Are your friends supportive? Do they come visit you? Do they do your whole bid with you essentially coming to visit and sending you money

on your commissary books? What's that dynamic looking like? Yeah, so most of the rehabilitation that I got in prison was from my family, was from my friends. They stuck by me and getting the support and the, you know, the visits were of huge importance because it gave me an opportunity to go and have positive, open, and honest conversations where I could be a little bit vulnerable with them. And I didn't do that in the beginning. It took me a few years to really open up and start working towards this. But it was because of my family constantly being there for me, for my friends who were constantly writing, and every once in a while I'd get a great visit with one of them. and they believed in me when I didn't believe in myself. And it was because of that that I was able to turn my life around in prison. Do you think the 20-year sentence was a just prison sentence for you and your actions?

I think the 20-year prison sentence was to try to send a message, to make an example out of me, to somehow prevent other tragedies like this. However, I tell people that you can't scare somebody who plans, on dying. You can't tell somebody, well, you know what? If you go and commit this shooting, you're going to get life in prison. Well, if somebody's thinking about some type of mass shooting, school shooting, they're usually planning on ending their life. And, you know, scaring people with prison isn't going to work. Out of the 20-year prison sentence, you do 17 years, you get out of prison, what's that first day like being out after all that time? What's the hardest

thing to adjust to. Yeah, so coming home after 17 years was definitely, it was amazing because I remember just on the ride home, I told my family, you know what, let's pull over and just, I don't care where I just wanted to be around regular people. And being able to walk into a store and just be around regular people going about their regular day, it felt so liberating. It felt amazing and you know I I remember it so well because it is one of those things that really leaves a mark on you of realizing what you had been missing for all those years and for me just to feel normal again you know even when I didn't feel normal I felt like I stuck out because I felt so different after the life experiences I had had but coming home and being

able to even just I went back to the home I grew up in. I wasn't living in the house that I grew up in when I came home, but my sister was and her family was. So I was able to walk into the house that I grew up in and be in the hometown that I grew up in. And even that just was like, wow. After getting out of prison, did you ever try to reach out to any of the victims or did they ever try to reach out to you? So I'm not allowed to reach out to any of my victims. Um, There are still orders of protection in place. And so even if I could reach out to them, I wouldn't. And that's because I believe that although my intentions might be good,

reaching out to them might hurt them more than help them. But I have had one of my victims who has reached out to me a few times and through family, just basically sending messages that they support me. They want me to turn my life around. They want me to be doing good. And after coming home and doing the right thing, and then after the sword attack, she also sent another message. She sent me a card while I was in the hospital.

And she basically said how sorry she was for what happened. But she hopes that I continue to try to do good things as I am. With having a high profile case like yourself, was it hard to find work getting out of prison? So when I came home, I already had a job lined up. Friends of my family had their own business, their own little store, and they had told me from the very start that I had a job whenever I came home. So I was actually working in my hometown when I came home from prison. And there were plenty of people who had come in and, you know, they were happy to see me. There were plenty of people who came in and probably had no idea who I was.

And I'm sure that there was plenty of people. If they did know that I was working there, they would have been upset by it. But thankfully, I did have that job so I could get on my feet again. A couple of years later, after you get out of prison, you're working at a homeless shelter, a local homeless shelter, and a man walks in and violently attacks you. What is that like what happens that day? And was it related to the initial shooting? Right.

So I was working at a homeless shelter for a while because I felt that again. I wanted to give back to the community. And so this one day, it's lunchtime at the shelter. And a man comes in, you know, he just wants some lunch. Cool, great. But then he starts to kind of get into a little bit of an argument with the guy serving the food. And, you know, me and my coworkers are sitting nearby. We overhear him calling our coworkers.

the white devil. And we're kind of like, whoa, like, you know, that's, that's, that's not something you can say around here. You know, we try to have a zero tolerance policy for racial slurs or any type of, you know, things like that. And so I kind of step in, try to de-escalate the situation, the man who ends up attacking me, he grabs his lunch, he's like, all, whatever, he goes and sits down. But eventually he starts to kind of talk to himself out loud. He, he, he, starts to become argumentative with one of the other guests at the shelter. And so, again, myself, my coworkers, we got to, hey, calm down. But eventually, he just kind of goes off. And I had to go and tell my boss and say, hey, this guy has to go. So my boss says, all right. And I go

and tell this man, I'm sorry, but you got to leave. You know, you're being too, to a great. with individuals, you got to go. You can come back tomorrow, but you got to go. And he says, well, can I go and get my property? Because we have lockers. And I say, yeah, of course, it's your property. Go and get your stuff. You know, you can finish your lunch if you want to. Just be real quick, grab your stuff and go. I go and sit down and think nothing of it. And he ends up coming out of the locker area. And my boss had come downstairs. And my boss sees him and my boss starts screaming. for everybody to watch out. And I look up and there's this guy walking towards me with, you know, swords in his hands. Do you think in that moment you had the same fear that your classmates

did when you were in that high school 20 years earlier with a shotgun pointed at them? Definitely. I definitely know that that's how they felt. And I can tell you that I even blacked out. I don't remember getting up and running away. I remember being knocked down because I was running up the stairs towards the front door. And I remember being knocked down and I remember everything else about the attack. But the extreme fear and everything that kicks in when you see somebody coming at you with a weapon like that, my mind just blocks it out. And I'm sure for a lot of my victims, for a lot of the people who saw me that day when I was

16 years old, some of them probably blocked that out because it is extremely. traumatizing. You woke up in the hospital bed after? I mean, yeah, I was, I was awake for the attack. I was awake after the attack. You know, I was in and out of consciousness a little bit. But, yeah, I remember when the police arrived. I remember everything because they were questioning me just basically like as far as like trying to keep me awake, you know, and they put turnicets on me and I remember you know they eventually got me out into an ambulance and you know they put that little mask on you with the with the drugs to knock me out and I woke up the next day. What was going through your mind on the way before you got knocked out? I thought I was

dead. Was it a feeling that maybe you thought you had 20 years prior that was coming back into it or is this just a whole new situation? No, this is a whole new situation with the attack. When I was at attacked. It wasn't like, I think I'm about to die because, you know, something is about to happen to kill me. No, something already happened to me. And I'm lying there for a while waiting for the police and for the ambulance and everybody. And I try to get up only to then realize that my left foot is almost completely off. My right leg from the knee down is almost completely off. My femur is sticking out my kneecap is wide open uh my hands were almost cut off you know my hands were not limping like this my hands were limping you know when I say that I mean that they were almost

peeled completely off with the bones and everything sticking out and I was like the first time I came across you it was your first video after waking up I had just gotten on to TikTok a couple months prior and you came up on my for you page and I saw that and I knew nothing about your story, nothing about your situation. And, you know, I really felt for you in that scenario, you know, you didn't, that didn't need to happen to you. Right. I don't think that, you know, just because mistakes were made and things happened in the past, that that translates into you deserving, you know, to get pretty much almost your limbs dissembled. Right. So I, I understand that a lot of people are angry with me for what I did.

And I understand that some people say that, well, I deserved this. I get that some people see me as still a possible threat to their community, and they want to keep their community safe. I 100% get that. But I am doing my best. I have been doing my best, even before this attack, to work towards making community safer. I do what I can to work with law enforcement, work with, I've even spoken with the FBI. and I even speak with, you know, I've spoken with people who work in schools, school administrations, about how can we make our communities and our schools safer.

What's your message to the world? What do you say to the kids that have been in your position or are currently in your position or are even thinking about going down that path? What do you say to them? How do you prevent something like the situation you are in from happening? Well, I can say that, first off, my story is extreme in the fact that I carried out a school shooting and then I was attacked by somebody with swords after coming home from prison. But for everybody, whether you're thinking about hurting yourself or others, being more open, honest, and vulnerable is important. That's what I wish I could tell my 16-year-old self is being open, honest, and vulnerable is being open, honest, and vulnerable is important.

vulnerable, that's how you can change your life and make your life better. And for anybody who is currently thinking of doing something horrible or sometimes looks up to people who have done school shootings and stuff like that, there's better ways of working with your pain. There's better ways of feeling better. And it's not by hurting others. It's oftentimes you can heal yourself. by also healing other people. Working with other people and trying to help other people has done so much good for me. I feel so much better.

Having meaning and purpose, working with other people and trying to help. And that's what I think that if we can have a community, a society that is more focused on, you know, raising each other up and lifting each other up, and even if you're down, you can still help raise other people up. You don't have to be perfect to help other people.

You don't have to be perfect, period. You can accept your flaws. You can accept the flaws in others. But you know what? Hurting other people is not going to make you feel better. How's your mental health now? I mean, my mental health is up and down. It was a lot better before the sword attack happens.

Are you actively talking to someone asking for help? Yeah, I was in therapy for a while after the attack. I'm currently looking for a different therapist that can maybe, you know, help me out a little bit better. But I believe that therapy can go a long way for myself and for other people. It makes a huge difference when you're able to open up and get these things out. John, I thank you for coming on the show today. I think that your story is definitely going to have a meaningful impact on the world for people watching, people listening. and I truly wish you the best

and I hope that you keep sharing your story and preventing things like this from happening in the future. Thank you so much, Ian. I really hope that we can share this with other people all around the world and help people realize that help is out there. You can tear your life around. It doesn't matter what you've done in your past, life can be better.

Awesome.