Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Soccer Mom — Then I Got 32 Felonies | Lara Love Hardin

Episode Date: June 16, 2026

Lara Love Hardin had the perfect cul-de-sac life: a million-dollar home, kids, the soccer-mom routine. What no one knew was that she and her husband were funding a heroin addiction by stealing their neighbors' credit cards. When the police finally knocked, she was charged with dozens of felonies and became inmate S32179. In this conversation, Lara takes us inside her descent into opioid addiction, what her time in county jail was like and the unlikely path that took her from a jail cell to ghostwriting New York Times bestsellers and an Oprah's Book Club pick for her own memoir, The Many Lives of Mama Love. We talk addiction, shame, the criminal justice system, second chances, and how she rebuilt a life most people thought was over. _____________________________________________ #addictionrecovery #TrueCrime #secondchances _____________________________________________ Connect with Lara Love Hardin: Website: https://www.laralovehardin.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/laralovehardin/?hl=en Book: https://www.amazon.com/Many-Lives-Mama-Love-Stealing-ebook/dp/B0BPDNW33W/ref=books_amazonstores_desktop_mfs_author_smart_catalog_1?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=NMLe6&content-id=amzn1.sym.aec507cb-142c-4f68-9ae5-803b8e7b33f1&pf_rd_p=aec507cb-142c-4f68-9ae5-803b8e7b33f1&pf_rd_r=136-6178201-4449817&pd_rd_wg=GRZoL&pd_rd_r=3432d7e9-c686-4577-8237-d731c18fd71a _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction: Laura Love Harden's Story 00:30 Her Childhood and Upbringing 01:45 Escaping Through Books and Education 03:42 Family Secrets No One Talked About 06:07 Trying to Fit In During High School 07:00 College and a Fresh Start 08:48 Marriage, Motherhood & Quiet Struggles 09:54 The First Painkillers 11:02 The Hidden Pattern of Family Addiction 13:45 Fighting Pill Addiction—and Denial 16:26 Sobriety, Remarriage & New Beginnings 17:41 The Day She Found Out: Heroin Relapse 20:08 The Rapid Downfall Into Crime 22:15 What Daily Life as an Addict Was Really Like 24:50 How She Justified the Crimes 27:02 The Arrest That Broke the Family Apart 31:15 First Days in Jail 36:33 A Mental Health Crisis Behind Bars 41:03 The Legal System and Family Fallout 47:00 The Plea Deal & Gender Disparities in Sentencing 53:13 Motherhood, Shame & the Community's Reaction 01:00:02 Life After Jail: Rebuilding From Zero 01:11:20 Starting Over: A Career in Literary Agency 01:20:28 Facing Stigma & Earning Redemption 01:26:20 Advocacy and Supporting Incarcerated Women 01:33:01 Writing the Modern Memoir 01:38:18 Regrets, Lessons & Parenting Reflections 01:41:45 What's Next: Fiction and TV _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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were funding a heroin addiction by stealing their neighbor's credit cards. When the police finally knocked, she was charged with dozens of felonies and ended up spending time in county jail. She got out and somehow ended up writing an Oprah's book club pick about it. Her name is Laura Love Hardin, and this is one of the most remarkable stories we've ever told on this show. I grew up in Massachusetts, in Concord and then Brookline for high school. What was your upbringing like?

Totally happy childhood. No, just kidding. Not really. I grew up in a family that had a lot of addiction, alcoholism, chaos, violence, but no one talked about it. So, like, I didn't really know that's what it was. And so my upbringing was just books. Like, how I, like, escaped from my home life was just into books. So, like, the first sentence of my book is, really.

reading was my first addiction. And it was. It was just like people in books made sense, like adults' motivations, always happy ending. Like, I just loved books more than being home. So as soon as I graduated high school, I went to college pretty much as far away as you can go, in California, and kind of started over there. I feel like that's every East Coast child's dream, get away from their parents, go to California. What were your favorite books to read? I mean, I read everything from a really early age. Like in first grade, I read Gone with the Wind.

It's like 1100 pages twice. But I read like a lot of teen romance books probably a lot. I read really just like anything I could get my hands on every genre of book. What did your parents do for work? So I didn't grow up with my dad. He and my mom split up when I was born. So it was just my mom, and she was in property management in, you know, in the 80s. It was like big, like, I'm making the gesture, but big, like shoulder pads out to here and the little pencil skirt in the briefcase.

And, you know, we, like my generation, we were the first kids to have moms who worked. So we were really on our own, the latchkey kids, they called us. Did they have college backgrounds at all? No, I was first wanted my college, in my whole family to go to college and graduate school. So. Why do you think you wanted to go to college? I mean, I loved school, but mostly because it got me out of my house, to be honest. And so in school, I just love school. I was only one of my, I had siblings and they did not love school. But that was just my place. Like I could go there. I could get recognition and validation for my grades.

my writing and all of that. So I always, I don't know, it's just how I was wired. And it's interesting, this is not in my book, but I found out, like, eight years ago, I got an entirely new family. I found out my dad wasn't my dad. My mom had had an affair and gotten pregnant with me and had not told the person. And so she told me, she got sick and she's like, have something to tell you. And as a joke, I was like, what, my dad, isn't my dad? Moripo. You know, like, I was just being funny and she was like, uh, and she's like, your whole life I looked for him. Like I have a friend who was a P. I found him in like 20 minutes and he didn't know about me, but I got this whole new great family. So instead of being the youngest of four, I flipped

and I'm the oldest of four. It's like one of those true life things. I was like, this is too much to even put in a book and it's not believable, but it was true. Are you glad that you found that out later in life? I mean, it's like was such a gift to find out and my new family is a gift and they're all a little quirky and weird and I fit in great with them. But it also made me sad because I would have had a very different life if she'd gotten honest. I come from a long line of women who keep secrets, right? And so I think when I met them the first time, the woman who had married my dad and raised my, you know, half-brothers and half-sister said to me, you know, if we'd known about you, like we would,

you would have been with us half time. You know, so it would have been a whole different experience of life, I think. If your best friend was here from high school, how would they have described you? That's a really good question. I just went to my high school reunion. Wow. And, you know, and it's interesting because as kids, we think we're so close, but nobody knows what's going on behind closed doors at home.

So they would have described me as, I was smart. I was popular in the way that, like, I could assimilate into every group at school. Like, the athletes, the smart kids, the cool kids, the stoner kid. Like, I could just seamlessly move through groups. And I think that was just sort of like a trauma response. Like, you learn to be who people need you to be in certain situations and kind of read the room. And so there's a girl in my high school. whose name is Lara also.

And she came to one of my book events and hadn't seen her in a long time. And she goes, do you remember me? I was the other Lara. And I was like, no, I was the other Lara. She's like, no, I was the other Lara. So it was just like a, it's interesting because your whole perception of changes later.

So, you know, I had, it's weird writing a book because they all read the book. And then they're like, well, I didn't know any of that. We just thought you were happy. Like they would describe me as happy. and like fun and, you know, carefree and had the best life. And I would have described a lot of them the same way.

And then you get older and you're like, oh, that was going on for you? That was going on for you? Do you think any of them would have expected you to take the path you would end up taking? No, not at all. I didn't expect to take the path. You know, no one as a kid is like, dear diary, I hope someday I become incarcerated or I become addicted or my first book is about this. You know, I didn't, I thought I could outrun whatever afflicted my family. I thought, like, education would inoculate me from that.

Like, I could go far away from them geographically, focus on school, go right to graduate school. So I went to college, then straight to get an MFA in creative writing, and then straight to having three boys in four and a half years. Boom, boom, boom. And I was really like not very intentional about any of that. It was just like, I'm going to have the family. I didn't have a good. I'm going to create the perfect family. And I didn't quite work out that way.

But yeah, I was just looking back, mindless about it. Like I was running, but I didn't have the language or know what I was running from. And it was myself, you know, which is really hard to get away from. It's hard to get away from yourself. And so when life got hard, it all caught up with me. Did you feel that life was coming together for a short while once you made it to California and you were in school? School was great.

Yeah, it wasn't until graduate school. Between my first and second year of graduate school, I met who would become my first husband. And it was supposed to be just like a little weekend fling. And we had only known each other like two weeks or seen each other two weeks over this summer. Like I was working on my master's exam and he was up in Santa Cruz in college. And so we saw each other now and then and I got pregnant with my son. And I was like, oh, I'm going to have a baby. And so we really were not right for each other in some ways.

Some ways we were. He's a great dad to all my boys, my three boys. But he, when that started to fall apart, it's like I wanted to create this sort of image of the family I didn't have growing up. And so I was like, pregnant, we're going to live happily ever after. It's going to be great. We didn't know each other. You don't know someone after two weeks or even two years necessarily. So it was in that marriage, I'd had three boys, and he was cheating on me.

And I was like, oh, I'm not going to have the happily ever after. like this is not going to work. And that is the first time I took a pain pill as needed for pain, but it was emotional pain, right, rather than like physical pain. Was that prescribed? Yeah, it was prescribed. And this, you know, I was like, try to explain,

like, this was before the opiate crisis was a crisis. And in the like mid to late 90s in California, at least, they're like every time you went to the doctor, you were giving sample packs of pain medication. They had like a candy bowl, blister packs. Like, oh, here, try a vikidin. Or you have an earache vikidin, childbirth vikidin. Like, it was just so prevalent.

And so everybody had pain medication in their house. And I had it from childbirth, probably. And I remember the first time I was just, I think I was depressed, but like, I never would have said that or looked at that. You know, again, like, growing up my family, we didn't really have a lot. language or feelings or emotions or like, are you okay? Like, that was just not the, the conversation ever. So I think, I think, you know, I was like, I knew my marriage was falling apart. It's really, I was getting really hard to pretend everything was okay. And I remember taking that pill and being like, oh, well, everything's okay. Like, I can pretend it's okay easier. And it's more

exciting, you know, playing arm guys and folding laundry and not thinking about my merit. It was just like it was a solution before it was a problem, right? It was like a great solution. And I felt smarter, better, brighter, more connected, more like able, but mostly able to pretend. When you start taking the pills, did you think about your childhood at all and an addiction? No, because, again, like, no one ever called it that, right? Like, no, like, I didn't know. So I, So one of my brothers and my sister that I grew up with, both my brother died of a heroin overdose. My sister died in a drunk driving accident. She was a passenger, but she was a very extreme alcoholic as a teenager.

And, you know, to give you an idea of what my family was like, my sister died. I was 19. She was 21, and no one has ever mentioned her name again. Like I couldn't even, my mom has passed away since, but I couldn't, anytime I've, tried to mention her name. My mom would just like burst into tears, which shuts down the conversation. So that's like the best quick example to get the feeling of what that was like. So I only found out my brother was addicted to heroin. And apparently he had, I knew he stayed in the basement, like to listen to Led Zeppelin. It was like super angry. And it was only when I was in college.

And I was, like, working and paying my own way through college. And he called me, this guy I've never told the story. So he called me and he said, you know, hey, I'm in trouble. And this was before I knew about the stories we tell, before I told my own stories. And he was like, I'm in trouble with these guys. I owe the money. And I'm getting my tax return. And I love you.

And he never said that to me. And I was like, oh, I don't want anything bad to happen, you know. And so I gave him all my financial aid. And I'll pay you back. And then he disappeared and I called my mom and told her. And she was like, oh, you should have done that. Didn't you know your brother's a heroin addict? I was like, no, you didn't, no one has told me.

She's like, oh, yeah. We're like six years. Like, I just didn't know. I don't remember your question, but yeah. Just about thinking of your family. Yeah, so I didn't think because I thought I was different and I was determined to be different. And even doing that, I was. could justify it to myself that it was not that, right? It was just like, oh, one time thing or two

times, you know, like, and I remember with, you know, back when my marriage was splitting up and taking like, I don't know, maybe it was four pills in one day. And I was like, oh, no, oh, no, I don't want to do that. That's not who I am. That's a problem. And I told, I was still with my ex-husband. We were like in the process of separating, but we're still in the house and three, you know, little babies under four and a half. And I said, hey, I handed him the pills. And I was like, I took like four of these today. And his, he was pretty dismissive. He was like, everybody takes him. It's no big deal. And he was like, I'll take him away from you. I was like, just take him. Get rid of him. And he put him up in the linen closet. He's six, four. He's tall. He got up there. And I like,

clocked it. But I was like, okay, good. That's over. I'm not going to, you know, that's not going to be a problem. And then, you know, what it was, a week later when things got hard, I, like, dragged a chair over and I climbed up and I pulled him down and I never talked about it again. And I did that on and off for, like, a long time where I was aware enough to be like, I'm not going to be addicted to anything. This is not who I am. And so I kept quitting it over and over again. And then being like, oh, I can quit. It's not a problem. Not thinking, like, I start back up a week later. So I just put myself through a lot of miserable detoxes, like fighting it. But not once did I think, like, oh, maybe I should tell someone and ask for help. Right. I just thought, like, I'll handle things. And by the time, like, fast forward much later, that, like, one pill, two pills, three pills that I was taking turned into 60 a day, like 20 at a time, which is. Okay.

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Spotify, it's Jay Shetty. Are you one of those media strategy people? Scrolling through spreadsheets, searching for an audience that pays twice as much attention to your ads than they do on social? Let me introduce you to fans. And they're here with me on Spotify. Trust me, I know fans. They don't skip. They stay for hours.

They don't move on. They manifest. They're not a demographic group. They're fans. Spotify advertising. You're among fans. crazy. Do you think there's a part of you, too, where you're thinking in your head because these are doctor prescribed and it's not addiction or it's not heroin, you know, it's a safer route? Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of things I was doing to justify that. But, yeah, I thought it was a safer route. But I knew the doctor wasn't prescribing 20 at a time also. And I was like, you know, it's interesting because I read this book. I interviewed this woman who

wrote a book Sarah Hoover called Motherload. And her book starts out similarly to mine. She's a young mom. She's in a hotel and she's doing drugs. In her book, I was reading it and I was like, but it was with zero shame, right? It was like no shame in her story. And her book is all about like postpartum depression. She just wrote it like last year or two. And I was like, and it made me rethink my whole like villain origin story. I was like, I just had three babies in a four and a half years like, was that post, was I medicating that? Was I met? You know, because for a long time, I was like, oh, I'm just a horrible person. Like, that's a horrible mother who does. Like, I couldn't not do that, you know? And so it's interesting that, you know, like she's, her thing was

just, like, amazing to me. I don't know what it was. I think it was a combination of a lot of things. Genetic circumstance, not having any other coping skills. Depression, which I would never would have admitted to postpartum depression, which no one talked about, like a whole bunch of things. But yeah, it got bad. And then I stopped for six years. Totally. Got divorced, stopped for six years. And then I got remarried and had another son. And the person I remarried, DJ, was, I'd met him like in a 12-step program and he had struggled with pills also and and was, you know, like, had some years clean too. And we bought a house and a business and, you know, I had my four, my three boys, our boy together, he had two children. We were

super Brady bunch, moved into our cul-de-sac. And then one day I, he was acting weird. He was. and I didn't know what was going on. And I remember one day I was in my bathroom and there was like a little brown sticky stuff on the bathroom counter. And I called a friend of mine. I was like, what is this? She goes, I think that's heroin. And so then the next day he went to, I mean, this is how quick it is, right?

So the next day he went to take the kids to school and I went through his gym bag. And I found like a baggie with three little baggies of, um, our heroin. And so, and again, six years clean at this time. So, but the, like, sort of sneaky thinking was there. So I went in the kitchen of my suburban cul-de-sac home and took down some brown sugar, melted it up in the pot, put it in three little baggies, took his, replaced his with brown sugar. Did I throw them away? No, I kept them. And I was driving that day to, um, to my kids went to private school, Montessori school. And I was going to do like an arts and crafts project as a volunteer in the classroom

in elementary school. And at the stoplight of my phone, Googled how to smoke heroin. And that's it. That's all it took. And from that moment, that Google, to 11 months later, when I was arrested, lost everything. Like the house, my business, like all of that happened. like it was that fast and you know like heroin I would never do that because that's what killed my brother and that's what addicts do you know like it and a lot of people go from prescription opiates to

that because it's easier and cheaper to get and it's an opiate is an opiate right and this was pre-fetnal day so it wasn't it was dangerous but not as dangerous um but just in 11 months completely blew up my my soccer mom life. What do you think it was that made you want to try it? That made you want to take those bags and, you know, give it a go. I mean, I think at first it was, I think the story I was taking it was like indignation. Like, how could he? Like, we're building a lot, you know.

And then it was the part of me that had spent six years not doing drugs and six years not ever looking at why I had done opiates before, like not doing any of the internal work, not like I wasn't cured of my propensity for addiction in any means. I wasn't in remission. It was just not in front of me. And so I had no, I had no, like, that seemed like the solution. Because once again, I was pretending to be happy when I wasn't. That is really, like my canary Nicole mine if I'm like in trouble is if I'm ever pretending because I spent my whole life kind of pretending to be someone I wasn't. And so I think, you know, people are like, do you ever worry about doing drugs now? And I was like, no, it's been 17 years. I don't think

about it. But I know to me the warning signal is not like if I'm like, oh, I want to like, is he and got some drugs around here? Like it's not bad. it's like am I pretending in any air of my life? Am I unhappy in my relationship, but I'm not saying anything? Do I hate my job and I'm still going to it? Am I like need something I have to say to a friend and I'm not saying like that? That is sort of like if I'm doing that, that's my slippery slope, I think. Did you put blame on your husband at the time?

No. And even like when I wrote my book, I was like, I want to make sure I'm the only villain in my story. Like I told the facts and I told the truth. And, and, but I don't, I don't, I don't blame, like, childhood. I don't blame him. I don't blame anyone, honestly. Like, that's kind of not my style. But it's also, like, I, during that whole 11 months, I, I knew what I was doing.

It's really hard to explain to people. Like, you're not out of, like, I wasn't out of my mind. Like, I knew what I was doing. I knew it wasn't me. This is not who I am. And yet it felt like I would die if I didn't do it. That's the best way I can explain it. So, you know, I blame me.

Like, it wasn't like I didn't have friends or people that I could have gone to. I said, hey, I'm in trouble. I need help. It's just something I would never do. What was going on with your career? Did you get to go down that path that you wanted to after college? Writing? No.

No, I was, let's see, at first I was a bookkeeper. I did a lot of math things. I didn't take math since high school. I was a bookkeeper. I helped a lot of business do payroll because it was something I could do to earn money and work from home when I had little kids. Then I became a real estate agent for 12 years. And then I owned a pet cemetery. Wow, a pet cemetery.

Yeah, a pet cemetery. That was profitable? It's so profitable. Why? I guess California. Yeah, it is really, yeah, there's a whole, that's a whole world that people don't know about. But in California, you can't, at least in where we were in California, but a lot of places, you can't, like, if your pet dies, you can't bury in your backyard. It's illegal, right?

And so pet cemeteries are big business. They're, like, contracts with their vets. Like, they're fighting each other for accounts. It's like a whole, I should do a television show about that because it is, like, crazy. I thought that was just a fake made-up thing from the horror movies. No, no, it's really a big, wild business. And actually, when my fourth son, I went to the International Association of Pet Cemetery Owners Convention, which was in Reno, Nevada. And it was, I was one of the few women that owned a Pet Cemetery.

And it was a lot of men from New York across the whole country. And they want to show you pictures of their Pet Cemetery. but it's like their Lamborghini in front of their pet cemetery, right? Like it is like a big, like a big baller business. It's crazy. So that's what you owned with your, the second husband. Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, so that, yeah, everything imploded. The house, the cars, the pet cemetery, everything in 11 months. Do you think you were happy doing that line of work? No, I mean, I was happy to be able to, like afford our lifestyle. I was not, and I was happy, like, this is going to sound weird, but like I, um, like my jail nickname was Mama Love. Like I have a lot of maternal energy, right? And so like I was very good at like comforting people who are like grieving. Like, you know, this is losing their pet is, for some people is like losing their child, you know? And so

that I was, I was happy. But it wasn't like, again, Dear diary, I hope someday this can be my career. I wanted to write and I wasn't writing. Like that was really like the thing I wanted to do my whole life. So, but I did like that I was helping people, honestly. What was going on with your family back home? Were you in touch with them at all? No.

I mean, both my brother and sister had passed away by then. My other brother, we were just sort of cut out of my life. and for various reasons. And my mom was not really like the grandmotherly type or she was kind of living her own life. So no one knew. Like I was really, once I went away to college, I was pretty disconnected from everyone. Walk us through those 11 months. What was going on when everything implodes?

So it started out. Like I was, you know, I knew my husband was using, but he didn't think I knew. So then I started doing it. He didn't know. And we were hiding it from each other. So it was chaos. And I remember one day still running the business, you know, like keeping it from each other, you know, like trying to catch each other but insisting we weren't doing anything. And so one day I remember I came home from work.

And he was holding like, you know, one of those urine drug tests. You can buy this story. And he's like, you need to take a drug test. I think you're using it. And I was like so outraged, like righteously. Like, how could you think that like, I'm a mother? You know, like whatever I was doing. Like, I'm successful business.

And he was like, well, then prove it. And I was like, well, I don't have to pee right now. I'm going to go walk the dog. And so I take my dog and I take some Tupperware. And I go walk the dog. I was like, the dog pees when we're walking like every two seconds. So I'm just going to collect the bee. I didn't realize like how little a dog peas.

I was out there walking for like 90 minutes to like collect every time the dog like at night, like a crazy person. Right. And every time the dog would go pee, I'd quickly try and get the Tupperware, which was scary to him, but I did this. So I came back and then I took like the baby bulbs range and I put it, you know, like it was such a like heist I was doing. Like it's just crazy now to think about it and like put it in the P test and hand to him and the dog tested clean, right? But in that moment I was like, like righteously, I was righteous. See, I told you.

Like I believed it in some way. Like it's just a craziness to keep that secret. Like I guarded that secret with my life, you know? like the crazy stories. Like I remember your world, like my world is getting smaller and smaller, you know, and I started making up lies. Like, I think I told people my car got stolen. That's why I didn't show up.

My car's never been stolen, you know? Like at that time, you know, and again, it's like I say it wasn't out of my mind, but I was out of my mind with the story. It's like, like, guarding that secret and that using like a treasure, right? Like I hated it and wanted to stop. I couldn't stop and I couldn't have anyone to know. And shame is like that. It doesn't say like, oh, look what you're doing.

Tell someone. It's like, look what you're doing. Hide better, right? And so I had crazy stories. I was always a storyteller. Like, I had a friend who came over one time and she's like, wow, you lost a lot of weight. And I was like, you know what? I read the book, The Secret.

And I manifested myself skinny. I thought that was a brilliant, like, thing. And another friend just recently, she's like, you know, I knew something was off with you in that time. She's like, I just thought you were, like, maybe you had cancer. Like, you know, and I didn't know. I thought I was like, nobody suspected anything that I was perfectly holding it together, keeping up appearances, doing the things. But I, you know, I started not showing up, you know, being late to school events. I was supposed to be, you know, things like that. And then, that was the least of it, because then my husband, I found out.

out and then we started using together. And that's really like when things escalated and smoking heroin. And things escalated and we were running out of money because we weren't working, we weren't paying the bills. All the money was going to like kids and kids school and drugs. And so I was doing weird things that didn't really make money, like taking my neighbor's mail and looking through it. But like it didn't, you know, like it's just weird things.

that make no logical sense. And then, like, my kids were in private school, and I started, and in private schools, like, you bring your kids in and you're in this, like, I just left all my stuff. And I was like, this is a safe parking lot in the car right here. No one's going to break in the car. But in private school, we don't lock our doors when we're walking the kids up the stairs to school. And so my private school mom friends would bring their kids up and I would go in the car and look at the purse, pull some cash out or pull a credit card out. And when I take my friend's credit card and I use it at the store and buy milk, that is a felony and that is identity theft. And if you forget the bread and you go back, that is another felony, every swipe. And that is what I was doing. And I was not a mastermind criminal. I mean, I'm a smart woman, but in that time or whatever, because If I'm using your credit card to buy groceries and swiping it, swiping that felony,

but then I put in my own phone number to get the club card discount. I'm not a criminal mastermind, right? But I thought I was so the lies and the doing this, and they're not going to notice. And I laugh about it now, but really I had to justify so much to myself, right? Like, I'm not really hurting my friend or my neighbor because it's a credit card company. right like I'm not actually taking from them because they won't have to pay this like this is how I had to justify it right because I knew right from wrong and I knew my own like moral thing like not in my right mind I wouldn't steal a penny for money like I would give people thing you know like my money and so

it was it was really the sort of mental gymnastics to justify it and I couldn't stop it was like this compulsion and it felt like I would die and it was a miserable can I swear on your show yeah it's a miserable fucking existence right it is this but there's a weird comfort to it because you know how every day is going to go for people who have a propensity to be afraid of the unknown which is me right like I want to I want to image curate back then and I want to make sure everyone liked me and think you know like make sure they think I'm doing good even if I'm falling apart inside. No one can know that. And so there's a weird kind of comfort to that, like, hamster wheel, because you know how each day is going to go. Like, you got to, like,

get the hustle on. You've got to find what you need to find to get the drugs to be okay to get through the next day. And it's just like this treadmill of misery but weird comfort. And you have enough spark in you to keep doing that, right? And, yeah, so I was committing crimes. and not in a very smart way. And the bills were not getting paid and we're hiding the cars in the garage around the corner because they're going to repo them and the mortgage isn't getting paid. And I'm not doing anything for business but draining all the cash out of it. And the electricity got turned off.

And so electricity got turned off. And so this is in a few days before my arrest. So get the dog and the... and the kids and stay at resorts on stolen credit card, right? Like I took a credit card from this woman on, like, back to school night, and checked into this, like, resort place in Santa Cruz under that card name and a stolen card. And I remember being there in the back room and security called. and I just like, oh, it's my sister's card, she'll be here.

And quickly, like, frantically throwing clothes in the car and throwing the dog and the, you know, and my son and getting in the car and, like, peeling out the back as you see two people in suits, like, walking towards the room. And I think it was like the next day or the day after that, you know, there's a pounding. We went back home and there was a pounding on the door, and it was the sheriff's deputies. What do you think made you still want to be a good mother, you know, by necessities? for your kids, take them to school, watch over them. Yeah.

Because so many addicts don't do that. Yeah. I mean, for me, and I think this is hard for people to understand, like, even in that time, in that 11 months, in that craziness, in those last days, I love my children equally to how I love them now, ferociously. Yet that love wasn't enough for me to stop for them. Like, I would have thrown myself in front of a bus, a train to save them or anyone's child in that time, but I still couldn't stop. And I, I remember that pounding on the door and my

husband at the time, ex-husband now, calling out to me or her voices, or no, he went down there, he's like, hide the, like, we had some drugs and I was like, hide it. So I was like, sock door. Like, I didn't, like, I didn't have like a hidey hole in our house, you know? And, and I just remember coming down the stair, like walking down the hallway. And a part of me was like, it's over. Thank God. It's over. Like I felt relief.

I had no idea what was to come or I would have felt that relief. But in that moment I was like, oh, like this is stopped. But then I came down the stairs and they handcuffed me. And the only one of my children at home because the older three were in school. Their one was in junior high and two in high school. And my youngest son, Caden, who's now in college. I was just telling you about. He was like a month away from turning four, which matters his age.

And he was like down the living room, you know, the big screen, it all his stuffed animals watching wonder pets. Do you know the show? I remember it. Yeah. And they handcuffed me and I just remember looking over at him. And they sort of brought my husband and I into the family room off the kitchen and like going through all our stuff and they're going through upstairs.

They found the drugs like four seconds. And he was like, you know, you guys are under arrest and both of us. And I was like, let me call someone to get my son. Let me just call someone. Like, let me call family. Let me call. And he wouldn't let me call. And he called Child Protective Services.

And I remember, I know by this time there's like a disproportionate amount of police cars in this cul-de-sac. and the neighbors were outside, and they're swarming the house. And, like, there's random mail in there, but just because it was taking people's mail for no reason, right? And they took all the kids' computers, all our computers, and child protective services came in. And my son was at the age. You never had been a night away from me. Who's at that, like, stranger danger age, right?

Like, you know, three, four, you're like, they're not going to walk up to you. don't know you. And so these two a man and a woman were taking away and he ran to me because he was scared. And I was a source of comfort. And my hands are handcuffed. I had my back. And I can't. It's still emotional. I couldn't comfort him. The only thing I could do in that moment was say, it's okay, these are friends. Like I was just trying to make it better. I had no idea. So we got brought in, you know, put in the police car in, you know, all the neighbors watching. And this is a neighborhood where people don't get arrested, right? And the whole way, so we're driving the police car to the jail, I was like crying.

Like, where's my son? Where are you taking him? What's going to happen to him? Where is you? You know, this stuff. And we got to the jail. And the deputy brought me in first. And there's like a little hallway between the doors slide open and the celliport and the doors that go into jail,

the sort of no man's land. like the size of this table, you know, this room. And he was, grabbed my arm and he, like, squeeze it as hard as he could. And I was, you know, like, I was breakable at that point, right? The mugshot is not pretty. And he said, you will never see your son again. And he said, you should not be anyone's mother. And I was like, and I remember just, like, hanging my head and be like, oh, my God, he's right.

And I believed him. I thought I would never see my children again. and he didn't have to say that. He could have said, your son will be okay. He's in child protective services. He'll be safe. You know, like, but he did not. And, and yeah, and then it was a year.

Not before I got to see my son because I did that. But it was, you know, a few nights later, I had never been to jail before. and I remember walking in and G-block, there were two units for women. And I walked in, it was like, I was in the holding cell for a long time, and I didn't know what's happening. And, you know, like, you know, I called collect to my mom, who had talked to my ex-husband's mom. And she said, Lord, they said there were guns in the car. And it was paintball guns.

My kid's paintball guns, right, with the orange tip. And I was like, what? She's like, you have gun chargers. I was like, what? Like, and she's like, the charges, it's like, they're going to, like, it's 27 years in prison. And I was like, what? Like, and so, you know, I got brought in jail the middle of the night, you know, like the bed roll and the thing. And I don't like, you know, there's like a freeway with bunk beds.

And then there's bottom tier and a top tier of cells locked, right? Of course. But I didn't know that. And I see a girl in the window and she was like, you know, gesturing. And I was like, huh? Like, you know, what happens is like, who's coming in? Do they have anything? I didn't know that world at that point.

And she's like gesturing and I'm like, what? And I go up and I try to open her door to see what she wants. And then she's like, oh, like, just started laughing. Like, obviously I'm new, right? Obviously, I'm not coming in with anything. And I remember getting in the bunk and I wake up in the morning, you know, even if I slept, but I remember, like, I slept for some point because I remember waking up and kind of opening my eyes and looking over and there's like women doing a dance routine

to a country music video. And I was like, where the fuck am I? And then it all hit me, Caden, where the fuck is Caden? And I was like terrified. I didn't understand what was going on. In G Block, the COs controlled the remote from out in like the command center. And so as punishment, they played 24 hours of like country music videos nonstop. But like, I know all the songs. Like, it wasn't, you know, people just made up dance routines. It's women in jail together. Like, you're going to get entertained by it. But it was a couple nights later, and, you know, I wasn't sleeping because I'm detoxing from opiates.

And I really, you know, like, all I was hearing was 27 years in prison. I'm not going to see my kids until they're, like, 40, 30s? Like, it was so, and I didn't know where Caden was. And I couldn't get any information. And, like, it's not like you get there and there's like a welcome brochure. And, like, here's what's going to happen. Here's this. Like, I knew nothing.

I didn't understand it. I was terrified. I was detoxing. And I was like, I have just failed at life. Like, that's it. Like, everybody else has life figured out. I'm going to take a mulligan on this. Like, I can't do this.

And I really believed in that moment that it would be better for my child. children to have a dead mother than a mother who was in prison. And so I wrote a note to them and told them I love them and I was sorry. And then I prayed that addiction never gets a hold of them. And it was like, you know, it's emotional now because I was like, how could I be in that state of mind? But it was such a calm. Like it was such a calm decision. I was like, oh, that is the answer.

And I'm not great at not. So I tied the sheet like six times, and my plan was to lie in my bunk. I had the sheet tied around my neck as tight as I could. In between the guard checks, so they came in every hour with flashlights, in between the noise and people doing their thing, when everyone was asleep, I was going to go up, and I was going to hang myself from the top tier because I was out on the freeway and I could just go up.

And I remember the guard checking, shining the light around the room, doing what he did in there. and then waiting for it to get quiet. And then the next thing I remember is, like, I can hear the sound, like the plastic chair scraping in in the morning at like 5 a.m. for breakfast. Like, I remember that. And I jerked up, like, oh, you know what I'm like hiding under the sheet, trying to untie the knots.

Again, still not like, oh, maybe I should ask for help. Like, I was embarrassed. And I didn't sleep through the night for another month. because I was detoxing, so I'm not sure, like, what sort of intervention happened there or just luck or whatever it was that made me sleep through the night and not do that. And, look, I was never in that dark place. Like, in that morning, they're like, you have court. And it was, like, emergency CPS court. I didn't understand. And then I was, like, went there and to the courthouse. And, you know, it was still no one's explaining what's going on. And then,

They were telling the judge that my, Brian, my first ex-husband, the father of my three boys, was getting, doing emergency things to get kidnapped. So he wouldn't be strangers. And I was like, oh, okay, he'll be with his brothers. He's with his brothers. He's okay. Because that not knowing what was happening to him was unbearable to me and that I had caused that. So after that, luckily, I was never in that darker place.

You seem to have had a good support system before the addiction took over. You know, the kids are in private school, other parents. How come none of them noticed that something goes off or tried to step in to help? I mean, they would have helped if I did it, but I was really good at pretending and being functional. And I would have denied it, even if I would have denied it. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because when I was a real, They would have helped me before, but when I was arrested and in jail for you, not one single friend came to visit me. I don't know that I would have let them, but nobody offered.

You know, I was a cautionary tale. I was like, did you hear? That was some good gossip, right? Did you hear what happened? Did you see the news? And so, yeah, there were people I could have gone to, but again, like I, I, I didn't know how to say that sentence. It's like, I need help.

Can you help me? I just wasn't in my vocabulary at all. I wish it was. Like, if I could go back and change one thing, would be me, you know, before then, from a young age, knowing how to ask for help. But it just wasn't what was ingrained in me to admit there's a problem anywhere.

Now, what was your lawyer telling you, once you're in jail and court proceedings start happening and you get charged. I had a public defender. And she was just, you know, a lot of shaking her head. And they wanted to kind of separate, you know, when you go from husband and wife to co-defendants, like the marriage is kind of over at that point, the romance anyway. But so I had a public defender. He was also a public defender, but they put him.

through a private thing to separate it, I guess. She was like, yeah, people are really angry. Like, the community is really angry, and they're putting a lot of pressure on the DA. And, you know, I don't know, just Lalo, we're seeing what, you know, they were trying to negotiate a plea deal, which eventually they did. But there was, you know, my ex-husband, his mom, had money and and she supported him and I think blamed me um because that's what moms do I might do that for my son too it's never my son's fault right no um so um yeah so we were treated

you know we were treated very different in the system you know and that's kind of how it is with men and women like not once do a judge say to him like how could you do this as a father who's taking care of your children? Like men don't get asked that, but women do a lot in courtrooms. They get, you know, and like the shame's already there. The mom guilt's already there. And so it's, it's, it's, I think women are judged a lot more harshly for committing crimes. And, you know, women are like the fastest growing incarcerated population.

And, yeah, I think we were treated very differently, even though we had the same exact charges, co-defendants, the restitution was joint in several. We were, it was, he, you know, I was like the poster girl. Like, I followed all the rules. You know, I was like, I'm a rule follower. But, and he, you know, he relapsed, he got in trouble in jail. He never went, you know, like he never got put in the minimum of security. He didn't, he went back to jail after we got out a few times before he kind of got on the straight and narrow. But he got let up probation years before me, they gave him money. And part of, so we, so I'm jumping ahead.

So we, we ended up doing a plea deal. And so I pled guilty to 32 felonies, some of which I did, a lot of which I didn't. And I would have pled guilty to like 10 million felonies if it meant not, not, not seeing my, not seeing my children until they were like in their 30s, right? And so it was going to be a year in jail. And then doing like this drug diversion court, which meant, you know, you could, you could clear your record. You could, you know, get off probation, all this stuff. So, and I remember looking at that list, my attorney and that list of like the felonies.

I was like, I was never did that at Costco, you know, like that thing. And to be fair, there were things I did do that weren't on there, you know. So, but it was like, you know, the reality of. the not that great amount of money that I sold versus what I was like $19,000 is what all of these things that they were able to clear off their books and I ended up paying for it. It took me years and years and years. It was a fair trade. You know, I had, my public defenders came to my, when my book came out to the book

launch in Santa Cruz and they're like, we're sorry we didn't do more. And like, we shouldn't have done that. And I just found out last year they said to me, you know, all of those were wobblers. They could have been misdemeanors. I was like, what? Like, I didn't know any of this because I didn't, you know, and also I was so full of so much shame. And when you're like shamed, you're not like playing jailhouse lawyer like to advocate for yourself. Like I didn't, I was just like I deserve it all.

Like that was really my mentality and all of that. But what happened was I was like doing all the things and I had a year to get my son back to do all the requirements, which is really hard to do in jail. And some women had a year to get their child back based. on their age because if they're younger, there's less time. And they were, but the same, you know, county sentenced them to 18 months. It's like almost impossible. So I had a window ahead time. And I just had to be like, okay, supervise visits. It's like I got them to like bring my son there to visit. We got a woman to come in because one of their crimes everyone had to take like a positive discipline class, parenting class. It's like when you get divorced, you take co-parenting class.

It was like that. And it's almost impossible to do after you get out in a time frame. So we got like a former mayor to come in and teach it, talked her into it. And she came and did that so we could all meet that requirement. We just did that once a week. But when we, towards the end, when it was getting time to be released, my attorney was like, look, they want to kind of, they don't want you and your husband going to drug court together. and doing that together because they think he's a bad influence on you.

Because he was getting all kinds of trouble. They found, like, one point they found clothes, like he was going to try and escape. Or, you know, like, he was, you know, doing things there. And so he was not the poster boy, right? And he was angry, you know, and he was writing, like, really stupid things in letters. So they cut off our ability to write letters, which I was, like, relieved at, honestly. But they said, they're going to put you in family preservation court. And I remember saying, but I'll still get the same things that I was going to get.

And they're like, yeah, yeah, like, they're rewarding you for your good behavior. Like, you'll be able to get your son back sooner. And I was like, but I'll still be able to, like, you know, get off, get my record cleared and get this thing, and it'll be fine. And they're like, yeah, yeah. Well, that wasn't how that court worked. And so it was the beginning of many, many, like, not ill intention, but bureaucratic. Like, everything that would go wrong in a court system for me went wrong, right, paperwork. And he lost.

No, we never said you could volunteer off your fines and meanwhile they're compounding, you know. And so he, when we got out, he, and we split up right when he got out because I was like, oh, you're not, this was not bad enough for you. It was bad enough for me. And we were on different paths, let's say. And so we split up. And but so like very soon, like within a year, they let him off probation. they gave him money back, like $2,000.

And then he was free and clear of that restitution that was joint and several. Like it was all on me. And I was like, wait, what? You know? So that's why I was saying it was very different treatment. And again, I think part of it was just bureaucracy, the messiness of that, where they're like the court. You know, my attorney and the judge may have said, yeah, it's the same thing. She'll be able to do that.

But when it came down to it, they're like, no, that's not how this court works. you need to go to this outpatient treatment and go to the family preservation court. So when I got out of jail, I had to go to three courts with three different judges every week while trying to get a job while I get my son back while doing like all of these programs. I mean, I'm glad I did family preservation court because I ended up getting like sole custody of my son through that court and doing that. But it was really hard to meet, to be in like three different places at once. and I'd never known how to take the bus.

Like the bus system was like hieroglyphics to me, you know, and I thought any slip up I was going back to jail. Like the tiniest slip up, like not understanding the bus schedule. And this is me with a master's degree before jail, being like a middle class, middle age, privileged white woman with some support and it was almost impossible to do all of these things at once. And I had no idea, right? I thought I'm going to follow all the rules.

and follow all the rules, and then I'll be done. Right? I didn't realize how, like, you're never done. Never done. Even six New York Times bestsellers later, you're never done. Even Oprah, you're never done. Like, that stuff keeps coming up. It keeps coming up.

Once a withdrawal period was over while you're in jail, what was that experience like in there? What do you think stood out the most to you? I think people don't know how much, like, There's a lot of humanity in jail. I mean, and I'm like, I've never been in prison with men, so I can understand it. But I think with women it's a very different experience. Like, there's a lot of humanity, just the world stops seeing it.

But, like, I had, like, the women I was in jail with saved me, right? And I didn't, like, we were all there together, but we didn't all come from the same world, right? And so they, like, really explained, and they explained the court system. And what happened was because I stopped doing drugs in jail, I started writing again. And like, no offense to Bakowski and Hemingway and all of those, like, great, like, fucked up writers who get wasted and write, you know, things. Like, I can either do opiates or I can write. Those two things don't go together because they kind of serve the same purpose for me. It's like how I process things and make sense of people and my feelings and all of that.

So I started writing again in jail, and I had stopped for a long time since my degree. And so I started ghost writing in jail. I didn't know the name for it, but I would listen to the women's stories, and I would write because, you know, everybody has their skill set, right? Like, you have your skill set. And so I started writing letters, women would tell me their story, and I'd write a letter to the judge as that woman, but I would write it. and to get, like, treatment instead of prison. And they would get treatment instead of prison, you know, or I would like,

or a lot of breakup letters, you know, or passes for funerals. Like, I became, I learned to go straight in jail. And it's just, like, extreme empathy where I could listen and be like, pretend I'm you. And here's what I want to say, you know. And I was a really good. When I tried to get a pass once for me, not so good at being myself, but I was good at being other people.

So, yeah, so I broke up with people. I said, do some gangsters. Like, I did all the, like, things. I got paid in bear claws. I never made my bed for a year because I suck at that. Like, but it made me, the thing about it wasn't like the bear claws and the bedmaker was like, I was doing something that felt valuable. Right. Like, I had some value.

Because out in the world, I had no value anymore. Like, everything I was before that didn't matter. I'd like, been on the school board or coach Little League or did all that good or had this or that or had a master's degree. Like, that was all erased. all credibility, all goodness, it's erased. I felt the minute I was arrested. And when I was sentenced, my face had been on the front page of the local paper. And I remember there being a reporter in there.

There was a very angry mob of my cul-de-sac neighbors wanting me to go to prison. And I know it sounds silly now, but it was like horrible, right? It was just like, it's public shunning. I was like Scarlet Letter. And so, and I remember there being a reporter in there, and I was kind of like trying to hide, you know? Like, I'm, like, I stole a credit card and bought some, like, it wasn't like I had, like, I've never had a violent mom of my life except for throwing ahead of lettuce at someone when I was 16. Iceberg, only violent, like never, right? And, but I remember that reported I'm trying to hide, hide it, get the plea deal.

and then the next day, I remember one of the COs, like, putting, hand me the paper, which I didn't, I didn't, wasn't paying for the paper. And it was a picture of me on the front page, and it said, Abtas neighbor from hell, sentence. And I, like, I was like, oh, that's who I am to the world, right? And I'm an excellent neighbor, by the way, now. But, and it was, like, I hurt people in that community. And it was a community that's like didn't know fear, didn't know someone like taking their mail or walking into their house when they weren't there. You know, like I am responsible. Like I did that and I was like should pay for it.

I was going to pay for it. But that headline was like haunted me for years. Like being afraid someone's going to Google me like post release and see that. And when I was in jail, I got a big manila envelope. and sent anonymously. It was like a fake name. And someone had printed out all of the online comments because I didn't have internet access, right?

And so someone really wanted me to read the online comments. And it was hundreds and hundreds of comments. And I remember reading them and reading them and reading them over and over, just like carrying them with me. And it was like, oh, she'll get hers. You know, the internet. And this was baby internet days, right? like before people really go off, but it was like, oh, she'll get hers on the street.

Oh, she was doing this. And, oh, I remember seeing her in a meeting. I was like, where's the anonymity? You know, like, it was just like this relentless thing of me being. And even, like, some of the moms that I knew, like Montessori moms were like, oh, she needs to move out of town. That's like her poor children. Like, they should all just move.

You know, like, that was the vibe. And I remember reading those things about how. awful I am and how worthless and how horrible. And I believed every single one of them. And I carried those comments around. I remember like it was maybe like eight months later. And there was this woman, Tracy, was a volunteer in the jail. And she was like, you should toss those. Because I was like, here's who I am, you know. And she's like, maybe you should get rid of it. But I carried those things around for like over a decade post-release, right? Like that shame and that like, like it's so wired in us to belong and I was like I don't belong like I like I am like I'm still

gonna survive and rebuild my life but like you know for a while I was like I have to leave but I can't leave this is where my children are right I remember when I got out going to my son was like high school basketball star and I walk into that gym and in my memory it's my first time out and I'm going to watch his high school game And in my memory, it was, I walked in, go to the bleachers, and the whole place goes silent. Right. And I was just like, oh. And so I'm just sitting there holding my head down, you know?

And it was really hard for me, but it was hard for my kids too, right? Like, I don't think public humiliation ever helps people rehabilitate, right? Or, but that's kind of how we do things, you know? Like, we'll show you the mugshot before someone's convicted. I gave a TED talk in 2019 and I wanted my mugshot, right? Just show because now it's like, you know, I had pictures of me with a Dalai Lama working on his book. And it was a talk I was giving that someone had talked to me into.

And I was finally saying the thing I'd been so afraid because I'd keep my whole past a secret as I'm like working and writing books and with people. And I went to the sheriff's office. And I was like, can I get my mugshot record? and they're like, no, we know what it's for. No, we're not giving it to you. Like, they didn't want to give it to me. They didn't want it out when I was doing well.

Don't they have to give it to you, though? No, I have a friend who's a former Secret Service agent or husband's Homeland Security a time. They couldn't get it. They tried to get it. That's crazy. I know, isn't that crazy? I got mine just by going to the police station. Yeah, I went there, went to the sheriff's office and they wouldn't give it to me.

And maybe I could have like, I didn't have time to, like, file a whole. Like, my attorney just got them for me last year. had to file a whole thing. Like a FOIA request or something? Yeah. So how much time did you end up doing inside? I was sentenced to a year. I got let out in 10 months.

And but it was like a early, like a work releasing. So I got out, but then I had to go to the jail every day and like work in the yard. It was like a new program. I was one of the first people on that. And go to three different courtrooms. Like the criminal judge was like, you can go to family preservation court. but every day after, because they don't have a remand thing, like in drug court, if you test negative,

you get remanded right away in that program that I got out of. And he goes, well, Family Preservation Court doesn't have that. They drug test you. So you go there, and then you come to my court every Friday so I can potentially remand you. And I was like, I have a lot of judges who care about how I'm doing, right? I just had to think of it that way. So it was like a lot of, like, jumping through hoops

and, you know, being able to, you know, having to pee test. In the same county, three different agencies, divisions on an hour's notice all across town, no car trying to get a job, trying to like take my son. Like, it's so illogical. Like, just, can you guys just share results? Like, one place? You know, it just wasn't, um, wasn't the system. They, they, like, you know, they're like, here's this system designed for failure, but don't fail. You know, like, it was really, It's so hard to explain if someone has experience, like how, like, the silliest little thing, you can go back to jail for no reason.

And that may not seem like a big deal, but it is if you have kids. You know, like 80% of women in jail have minor children and often the solo caregiver. So it is terrifying. Like, I still have dreams, like, just a couple weeks ago where I'm, like, having, like, I'm being dragged off to jail. And I'm like, but I haven't done anything wrong. I swear. You know, like, it's like that that fear just pops up all the time. Did you know that you and your husband were going to be over with by the time you get out?

Yeah. Yeah. I knew. I mean, I think I knew before we went in. I was very conflict avoidant when I was younger. So I was like, oh, good, jail's handling that. I don't have to have the conversation. No, I knew it was over. And also because we both had very different responses to the same thing that we went through. You know, I was like guilty and ashamed and wanted to make it right and wanted to rebuild and wanted to say sorry, I wanted to make amends and wanted to do all the things.

And he was pissed off and angry and thought it was just stupid, you know. And he was like, you know, I grew up, I grew up Brooklyn, Massachusetts, which is a wealthy community. I was the only kid in the apartment. You know what I mean? with a single mom. He grew up in Las Gatos, California, which is very, and Saratoga, which is

very, like, well-to-do and grew up with money and a parent who made his life very cushy. So he was very, like, angry, but then he also, like, tried to, like, play gangster. He was, like, a mortgage broker. Like, he was not a gangster, you know? So we just had very different worlds and experiences and and who we were trying to be after and so yeah it was definitely over but also like what I I wasn't angry

like it's only now I mean this is seven I was in jail 17 years ago right it's a long time ago it's only now and again I think this is how men and women are different too where I'm like oh maybe that part of it wasn't fair like oh maybe I'm a little angry about that or you know what I mean like as I find out

things, but again, like, I couldn't, I didn't know what I didn't know, you know, but anger's hard, harder for me. I'm not like a super angry person, or maybe I am and I'm just going to blow someday, like, who knows? But it's our lettuce again. But, yeah, I knew it was over. That was a really long answer to a very yes or no question. How long did it take you to rebuild and get stable to the point where you could get your kids back and have some stability in life? Yeah. So I, when I got out, you know, a jobless, homeless, homeless, carless, friendless, because community, I was like, dyed my hair brown to, because, you know, my face had been on the front page of the paper. Like, I was afraid in the grocery store. It didn't matter that I owned businesses in real estate and had a master's degree, couldn't get a job. I was living in a 400-square-foot apartment. I got Caden back, who's the only one. My other boys were with my ex-husband, so they weren't part of, like, child protective services. I got Cain back within a few months by December.

So I got out late August by December. I had him back. You know, they still were monitoring things, so it took a while to be completely free of that. But in my other boys, I could have them back, but like I had a 400 square foot apartment. Like the house, like everything I took for granted was gone. And so they were back in my life,

but it wasn't back in the way I was a mom before. or sitting down at the big table for dinner and doing homework and hanging out in the room or hanging up my room, like there was one room. You know, Christmas, they slept there, right? Because I'm, you know, I had one Christmas, one year of holidays I didn't spend with my children that year, you know, where I missed my son's birthday. I miss my oldest son's high school graduation. They wouldn't let me out for that.

That's what I mean. Like, I got past this for other people, but not for me. but I never like by the time I had rebuilt to get them back in that way Dylan's in college Cody's going off to college but it was I was in that 400 square foot apartment for a long time but I had caten back I didn't care like I was so happy to sweep my own floor you know that feeling sometimes I get that way like it's one of the gifts is that even now it's like, oh, I've got to do the dishes. Oh, oh, I'm grateful for that, right?

Like, oh, I got to cook. Caden's like, can you make me food? I'm like, you're going to call it. I want a mom meal. And I was like, oh, I remember when I was making food for like 30 women that were not my children. You know what I mean? Like, that kind of thing is a weird, I mean, it's a gift in a way, like helps you, like, be really grateful for the little you have.

So it took me, I got a job. working in a literary agency a couple years after I got out in 2011. And it was a slow build. No, it wasn't like they were paying me a gazillion dollars. But I started ghostwriting and working, you know, with all these amazing people and professors, Archbishop Desmond Tutu. I was just ghostwriting. Like nobody knew my past. I was keeping, like, afraid of getting Googled, right? That headline haunted me until I gave my TED talk. And I was like, here's a thing. I'm afraid you're going to find out. And, like, it was okay.

Like, no one was actually thinking about me as much as I thought they were. But it was a good 11 years, probably, to pay off that $19,000. What happened to your second husband with prison or jail or just anything in general? Did you guys ever talk again? Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's Kane's dad. He's in Kane's life. I tend to marry men who are better dads than husbands.

So if you have to choose, that's the right way to go, in my opinion. But he, you know, he took maybe four or five years to get on the straight and arrow. I don't know exactly the timeline. But he's doing good. He became like an ultra-endurance runner, which a lot of former addicts go into that sport, right? It's kind of like pushing yourself to the extreme. And he's in Cadence life and he's in a stable relationship. He's doing great.

How long were you at the literary agency for until your second act of life success happened? So the literary agency, like I answered a Craigslist ad, right? And I was like I couldn't, like I would get places in interviews and then the background check, right, would come. And I had like a very don't ask, don't tell policy about it. Like if someone tells me, I'm going to be honest because that's how I'm trying to live now, right? I'm going to be totally honest. But if you don't ask me. And so I answered this Craigslist ad.

And it was like a part-time personal assistant, five hours a week, $20 an hour. And I was like, yes, I haven't made. Right? And it was like 30 essay questions for disproportionate application for the like job, you know, 100 bucks a week or whatever it was going to be. But it was a fun writing exercise. And before that I had done, the only job I could find was that wasn't doing a background check, really was I was writing for this online company called Content Divas.

And I started writing like, it was like SEO blogs, right? I was like, well, I'm writing. and it was like I had to do 1,600 words a day, which felt like a lot. But it was good training, but I didn't realize it. It had been a long time since I'd written. And the pay was low, but it was a fun little exercise because, like, one of them was, like, a travel blog. And, like, I couldn't leave the county, you know? And so I, like, treated each SEO blog piece, like, as a literary masterpiece short story.

And I would just turn them out to make money for food. But so I answered this ad and on paper I was way overqualified for the job, right? So I was the assistant called that Doug had and said, can you come interview in an hour? At the time I was at the county like welfare office with Caden because one of my charges was a drug charge, they wouldn't give me benefits. Like trying to appeal that, right? trying to like see what I could do. Like in survival mode, but not willing to steal in survival mode. But the same kind of mentality, right?

And so I was like in the line with my little number. And can you be here in an hour? And I'm like, Caden's there with me. You know, like having a toddler in a county agency is like never a happy time. And I had a car that someone had donated me that didn't go uphill. And leaked oil. So I was like, oh, what if it's uphill? You know, like it was this whole moment, decision moment.

Do I stay and try and get some, like, food and benefits for us to live? Or do I take and bring them to one of my sons to watch and then go to this job interview? So I chose a job interview, which changed my life, right? And also it was a Craigslist ad for literary agency who mentioned they worked with Desmond Tutu. I was like, I'm probably going to get murdered, right? Like, this sounds like who's advertising on Craigslist who's working with, like, these kind of people in the world. And it was Doug. And Doug was like, it's amazing human, so innocent, so good, so smart.

And the interview was at his house. And it was uphill. And I was like, oh. And, you know, I park on the road because my car is like leaking oil. Like, it's not a good way to be in someone's driveway. And I go in an interview. And he doesn't like, he doesn't say, by the way, do you have 32 felonies? You know, like it just doesn't cross his mind, right?

Which is like privilege, right? So I can go in. I'm in his house interviewing him. working this literary agency and, you know, I had worked at a small press publisher in college. I had a master's degree in writing. Like, I was very overqualified and on paper. And so he was like, well, let me try out one of the few things because it was to be a personal assistant.

So he's like, research minivans for me or whatever it was, like these weird tasks, which I loved. I was like, oh, it was like, let me do this. And he was like, oh, read this book proposal and tell me what you think. and I hadn't read a book proposal before. And I was, so I remember, like, reading it. And he's like, oh, we do everything in Word. So I'm trying to learn Microsoft Word with track changes. You know, it's like how we edit now.

Now it's like language to me. But so he said, what do you, what do you think? And he called me. And I was with Caden. And it was like, oh, well, actually, like, I would, like, I like, I like it. But I would organize the whole book with this. And you start here and you do it. I just blurted it out.

And he was like, hold on. I'm conferencing you on with the author. And I was like, what? And like, Keynes in the car and I get out of the car. And I'm like, hi, you know, waving to my son. Like, hi, baby. And trying to. And I was like, scared. Like, I'm going to talk to an author. Like, what I'm doing. You know, I can feel my face getting hot and red. And so he's like, you know, tell him what you said. And I was like, you know, did my thing. And he was like, okay, great. You know, the author loved it. And Doug's like, yeah, Laura will be working with you on this? You know, and he hangs up. The author hangs up. And I was like, so I have the job. He's like, oh, yeah, you have the job. So I start. So I start. like that five hours a week. I remember going to the office the next day, the assistant who'd been there for five years hands me a bank bag, like one of those green pouches, like you'd go make a bank deposit, in it with all Doug's credit card numbers, bank account numbers, passwords to everything, here's the computer, here's the thing. And one of my probation things was that they could search computers that I was on, right? And I'm on probation, even though I've been out two years, And they just give me all this stuff, like so trusting.

And I was like, okay, you know. And she's like, well, okay, here's five minutes of training. I'm out. I never saw again. And Doug's like, okay, we got to do this, this, this, for literary agents. So I just like learned on the go. And because he trusted so blindly, I would never do anything to betray that trust. You know, it felt so good to be trusted, right, to be believed in.

And so I started like running the whole business. I started working with this author helping him write this book proposal. You know, Doug would hand me all the receipts because I was doing like the managing the finances of the business. And I remember he'd hand me like just pulled receipts out as well. It handed to me there was like a dollar bill like tucked in one of the receipts. Like he got his change wrapped in the receipt. And I was like, this is a test. I don't want him to think I took the dollar.

You know, and so putting the dollar and it says putting something on it right in the center. So he had no idea of my background at that time, but I was like, didn't want to take a dollar, you know, even accidentally. And I remember we were, we worked with this author who wrote the What Colors Your Parachute book. I don't know if you know. This was like a big job hunting Bible back in the day. And he would, Doug was on a call because, you know, every like a few years they update the version and make it more modern. It was like a like a job Bible at the time. And I was in the office and I was working.

I was in a chair. I didn't have a desk. I was like had my laptop, you know, and Doug was working there. And I felt so good. The day before he'd be like, you're so brilliant. And I was like, again, someone like saying something nice about me felt so good, right? And like, yeah, I'm brilliant. Okay. Like, I'm not the neighbor from hell. I'm someone brilliant. You know, it's like an identity. You're trying to like figure out your identity through all of this after all of this. And so I remember working in there and Doug was on the phone. and the guy as they were up there, he's like, well, people just Google their employees now. Like, they don't really, like, they make check references, but really they Google. You know, he's telling Doug this in this 2011. And I just remember I was working away on Desmond Tutu's biography. I was editing Bono, a Desmond Tutu's biography or something like that. And all of a sudden it was like the air pressure in the room changed, like, it went silent. And I just looked up and Doug staring at me, face, like, the color of your shirt, just, like, all the,

the color drained out of a space. And I was like, he just Googled me and saw that neighbor from hell. And this is a man I'm working in his home office. He's got kids. He handed me all the passwords and the codes to his bank accounts. So he's just looking at me like he doesn't know who I am. You know, it's like I married an ax-murder kind of situation thing. And he hangs up the phone and he goes, I didn't check your references.

He's like, I googled you. And I was like, oh, like my dream job. Because I'd just been like, I'm brilliant. And this is my dream job. And I'm back doing what I should have done my life, working in books and writing. And he's like, let me make some calls and talk to people. Why don't you go home now? Come back tomorrow at 11.

You know, and I hand him that little bank thing. And I'm just mortified, humiliated, embarrassed. You know, I hand him all his stuff and the keys. And I leave. and I think I'm never going back. I can't. I can't go back tomorrow. Like, I can't face this.

Like, I just lost my dream. And this is after two years of, like, almost getting jobs or getting jobs and then, you know, things happening. And so I had, like, a very sleepless night. I talked to a couple friends of mine. And I did have some references when I applied. And he called those and they said, trust Flaar, with all the money in my business, you know, like a county supervisor because I'd worked for a nonprofit a little bit. Under a grant for my incarcerated women, I was working, you know, but,

but I went back the next day and I was very, like, I knew what I was going to say, and I walked in, I was like, look, I'm really sorry that you found out this way. Like, it's important to me that, you know, I didn't lie to you. If you'd asked me, I would have told you. But I'm sorry, I put you in this position, and I'm just as brilliant today as I was the other day before you found this out. And he was like really, had spent like his own dark night of the soul,

like really being like, am I someone who can walk his talk? Right? Because it's really, and it's hard for people, right? We believe in second chances, but like not in our house, not next door, not at our work, not to rent to, but we believe in it.

We're good people, so we believe in rehabilitate. You know, like, you know, he was in this sort of crisis of, of, his worldview and real life in front of him. And he was like, I can't, I can't, we can't work with Archbishop Desmond Tutu and not walk our talk. You know, like he ran a forgiveness reconciliation thing for a whole nation, you know, after horrible, after genocide, not like. And so he was like, okay, you're still going to work here. Just maybe you don't handle the finances. I was like, fair enough, you know. And so I hired someone to handle that. And I started writing, ghostwriting,

That book proposal sold for gazillion, gazillion dollars. I made him a lot of money right away. And I hired someone to do the bookkeeping, and then eventually she just couldn't do it right. So I took it all over and ran it. And when I left that company 12 years later, I was CEO. Wow. And, yeah, so that was that. This episode is brought to you by Activia.

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Visitactivia.ca for more details. Journey, but luckily he gave me a chance and believed in me. And if you think about what you just went through in 2011, imagine what people go through now. Yeah. Like it's insane, especially with Google, and just chat G-T, chat GBT,

social media. Yeah. Pulling people's records or because the news does such a good job in a negative way of putting someone all out there. Yeah. For good or bad. It's like. I mean, we've been looking at, you know, new office space to move the studio and the leases up.

And we have landlords that, you know, turn us down just because of the past history. Yeah. Or the topic. Oh, the past history. Yeah. Yeah. But it's like our final. Financials are good.

Yeah. Our business is good. We've paid all of our bills on time. I've been out of prison for, you know, seven years now. And they still can't look past that, but they'll keep their building vacant, you know, for all these years. So it's, it really is insane. Yeah, it's interesting because, like, every sentence, no matter whether you're in jail for a year in federal prison, in prison, one year, 10 years, five years, seven years, six years, whatever it is. whatever it is, it's a life sentence because those things just follow you, right?

Even, even, and it doesn't matter, like, what you're doing now doesn't matter. New York Times bestsellers, does this matter? Like, I just had to rent a place and I got all triggered up because I'm temporarily living in L.A. and I went to a property management company and it was like the background thing. And I was like, oh, God, like, am I not? Like, it just triggers up all that old, like, fear and insecurity and just like, still, you know, forever.

And I think people don't realize that. I actually find those companies better to rent from. Yeah. Because they'd really just look for like a... Recent. Yeah, recent. And also, like, if you got evicted. Yeah.

Like, where a private landowner won't rent to you, but a corporation will as long as you don't have any evictions. Right. I'm just putting in my thing on do not to stir. Or any, like, sexual type of conduct or anything like that. Yeah. that's what they're like verb violence or like sexual things and and some things like recent but like again I didn't know and then I got last year I got my record expunged finally oh wow and you know again

same same exact charges it's my husband so they've already like expung equivalent charges exact like we were co-defendants um but I had to have a hearing I had to write get 10 letters I had to show up in court they wouldn't say whether they were going to do it or not I was like my old public defenders, like at my book thing, I was like, we'll help you. And I was like, well, I emailed you three years ago, but thank you for helping me now, right? And so she was like, write a letter and tell the judge why in the interest of justice they should expunge your record. And I was like, well, since my male co-defendant had his same exact record expunged, how about in the interest of justice they tell me why they shouldn't. She's like, don't write that.

But that's what I mean. Like, it was only now where I'm like, let's talk. talk about, like, what's fair, you know, like where you're, because you're not going to advocate and shame, but now I'm like, okay, well, if they did it for him, they could do it for me. But I did that. She's like, you're not going to write that, write the letter. So I did, and they end up doing it. But again, it was like, I don't know what that means. No one's told, like, I don't know if the paperwork went through. I don't know if, like, if you go put me in one of those online things, you'll see the chart. Like, they're still there, you know.

But when I did apply for this housing thing, I hit the, I checked, you know, I asked, I was like, so I can say I have no record on this? And they're like, yep. And I was like, okay. So I did it. And it went through right away. But it was still like, it's hard. Unless you experience that anxiety, it's hard to explain what that it feels like.

Because it's not just like the anxiety of renting this house or a different house or this office space. So it's like, it's like your whole, it's like a judge. of your whole life in those moments, like your past and your future and like what matters more to people. Now, during that time at the literary agency, you decided to write your own book? Yeah, I mean, I was working as a ghost writer, right? So those skills in jail, like, you know, and it is like objectively a crazy story to go from like identity theft is what my charges were. And then like people paying me to assume their identity to write their book, right? Like, it's a crazy story. objectively. Like as a literate agent myself, like you look for a story that's unusual, right, unique, but it has universal things. But so I knew that much. But I was not going to. I was keeping it a secret. I didn't want my authors to know. Not working with judgy people. This is two to the Dalai Lama, Stevenson, Stanford professors, you know. But it was I, my friend talked to me into doing that TED talk. And it was on that stage when I was like, yeah, I was once a neighbor from hell. Neighbor from hell. And he was.

here's some other people I have been, right, and talked about my ghost writing and who I was working with and showed pictures of me with the Dalai Lama. And with Oprah, before she picked my book, she'd picked Anthony Ray Hinton's book, The Sondas Shine, that I co-authored with him about his 30 years on death row. And so, like, I had lunch with her, you know, and so I had all these pictures and, like, yeah, I have been called the neighbor from hell. I'm also this person, too, you know. And, but the feeling I had after I, like, said the thing out loud that I was so

afraid for, I mean, we're 11 years post-release and I'm still in so much shame. So afraid people are going to Google me. So trying to like build my resume of goodness. So when the truth comes out, I can defend my humanity, you know, like I'm actually good. Let me prove it. Look at all these books that have helped people, you know. But I, when I did that on that TEDxage, like, I can't describe the feeling better than any drug I've ever taken, the feeling of lightness. And like, oh. And people didn't run screaming from the room when I told them the truth. They, like, gave me a standing ovation. And I was like, this feels good. And I think this can help people. And so Doug was out in the hallway after, and he was like, are you ready to do the book now?

And I was like, okay. And so I, and my secret had come out a little bit working on Anthony Ray Hinton's book, because as his, as his collaborative writer, co-author for that one, so either your acknowledgments to the title page or the cover with, you know, as your role as a collaborator. Doug was the agent for his book, and you have meetings with editors, all the editors that want to publish a book. And a lot of editors wanted to publish his book, so there's like an auction. But Doug's talking, them, pitching the book. And he was like, do you know how hard it is to find someone who's been incarcerated

who has an MFA? And they're like, oh, we didn't know that about Laura. How great. Like it was a selling point with editors at that point. I was like, this is so weird. Like my big shame is like helping Doug sell this book, you know? So it was after that I was like, okay, I'll do it. So I wrote the book proposal for it, which nonfiction, you write the proposal before you write the book.

And it sold at auction and went to Simon Schuster. And then I had a year to write the book. And then a year before it comes up. So it was like a two-year process. And it was like really, yeah, it was crazy because I was like, oh, this is going to be a big deal just because of the auction. and what it sold for it and all this stuff. And I was like, okay, I'm going to write it for a year. And if I do it, I'm going to be really honest.

Because I know how to pretend razzle-dazzling words. And some people would think I was honest. Some people would know I wasn't being totally honest. So I was like, I'm going to be my two goals are be really honest, not make anyone else the villain. And so I went off to Thailand by myself for seven weeks and wrote the draft of the book. Like I just gave myself a little, I need a deadline to, to do stuff. And I had to be away from my kids and work and my family to be really honest.

Because there's things in the book. I mean, there's things in the book that were not in my book proposal. I never told anyone. And I had to not think like, oh, my kids are going to read this or this person's going to, you know, I just had to be honest. And I didn't know how much I actually needed to tell all the stories I told because I hadn't told anyone. It wasn't like, I was like, oh, let me tell you about jail or what happened when I was out on bail. You know, like, I wasn't sharing those stories. I was just like trying to prove myself and rebuild. And so, and then I was like, okay, I got the draft of the book done.

It's another year. I know I'm going to have a big microphone for a while. I didn't know how big. I didn't know it would be Oprah big. But I want to do some good with it. And so I started working on a nonprofit that would specifically help incarcerate women called The Gemma Project with, and my co-founder was, like, Like former probation officer policy was the mayor of Santa Cruz.

So we did it together. We planned it out and launched it a month before the book came out. And, you know, I think, you know, and everyone said, you can't have a nonprofit that's only helping 10% of the population. And I was like, okay, but that 10% still matters. And I've, like, visited jails and prison all across the country, like, like, Michigan, you know, great share of big splashy program they have. I got to go there. The governor of Michigan was there, and he's not running for government. I was like, could I meet with the women alone? Like, no guards, no cameras. And so he let me do that. And I got to hear their experience. And they're having a very

different experience. And programming is great in some places, great and not, better in prison than jail, for sure. And a lot of women, like in California now, you can be held in jail for your whole sentence. Jail's not meant for like a long-term stay. It's not easy for visitation or programming. but um you know and and great you have a problem like all the unions are here and they're teaching the trades to men but i was like asked the woman i was like how many of you want to be welders you know like close to 100 percent of women have histories of like sexual violence and trauma and abuse and domestic violence and i mean i'm not saying construction sites are bad but maybe they're not the best environment for every woman to be on you know and so

It was really, I was like, can we get programs in there, like, that they can have, they have children. And when they get out, like, let's teach them a P&L, let's teach them how to run a business. Let's teach them where they don't need a background check. Like, braiding. So they started a braiding program in there, you know, like, so anyway, they're like, you can't, no one's going to fund that. But we launched in 10 counties last year, raised like $5 million. And it's a program for women while they're in custody, and then it's reentry. It was going to be 18 months.

It's reentry services for life, right? Because here we are. Things are still coming up, right? It doesn't matter how cool your studio is, right? Or a book you've written or how much good you're doing the world or how you still need support sometimes for life. And women with, you know, like there's so many barriers with child care and licensing and all the things. Do you think it's harder now than ever to go the path that you went of, say,

publishing a book of your story of incarceration and getting it out there? Because I have so many guests, both men and women, that attempt to go that path and then they'll just end up, say, self-publishing. Yeah. I think it is, I think, like, the magic is to make sure that there's enough universality in it. So that, and I don't know, like, it's half of its luck, right? And half of it's who's writing it, like, you know, like 80% of nonfiction books. I'm looking at your books of one here.

Have writing help, right? Someone to help them. Because, like, the odds that you're going to be an expert in this and trained in narrative are slim, right? Like, even Stanford professors have writing help, you know? So I think part of it is the writing. Part of it is sometimes, because I have a lot of people reach out to me, both being an agent, having written my memoir. Like, you have to write my story. or you have to represent me and sell my story.

And part of it is, why are you writing the book? Right? Because if you're writing the book to vindicate yourself, it's never going to go. If you're writing the book to attack someone else, it's never going to work. It's like the same reason like CEOs want to do like vanity books about how great they are. Like that's not going to resonate with people. And so I think part of it is and how unique is the story, right? Like where or or I mean everybody's story is unique and everyone's entitled to tell their story and everyone has a story to tell and everyone's entitled to publish it or have someone buy that.

Right. So it's like a different. There's like the business of it and then there's a story of but I think and it also depends on the market and like, you know, I know like after 2021, publishers like, oh, we did all our social justice work. That's done. It's like really you cured racism? Like that's done. We don't need, you know. So I think it's like where you're going in is this book going to relate to the to the book club women.

That's who buys books, right? Like the demographic, like 40 to 65 year old women. But and it's mostly fiction. Like a lot of people don't read. And then when they do read, it's fiction. If they read memoir, it's celebrity. So it's like the hardest thing is an agent to sell is a non-celebrity memoir. But I do think like the writing and the writing.

the meaning-making you're doing for people. And as much, like, if people can read the book and have absolutely nothing in common with the specifics, but feel totally seen and it's totally relatable, then that's the books that work. But it's hard. And honestly, like, there's a lot of people's self-published book, like David Goggins, right? He pulled his contract to self-publish or did a hybrid publisher and made gazillions of dollars. There's a lot of people who just self-publish on Amazon. The word of mouth, the marketing is good enough.

Because publishers don't have any special marketing skills. They just have distribution, right? Like the people doing marketing. I mean, they have their skills, but not greater than anyone else's in this day and age. So I think there's a lot of people self-publish and then get the book deal for the same book and the distribution and the bookstore placement. But it's hard. It's hard. Most people watch videos.

Right? That is very true. You know, I mean, most people don't read, you know, and then when they do read. So I think if it's, if your entryway into the story is unique enough and you're willing to show people at your worst in a memoir, right? Because a story where I like, and this is obviously not who's like the story of people like talking to you about doing books, but if it, you know, like, I was a great person. I had a great day and I went to bed and slept a great sleep. That's not a very exciting story. Like, you have to really humble yourself to do a book where you have to show yourself at your worst, not yourself that you're wronged, not yourself where they, you know,

like you didn't deserve this. Like, you have to really be willing to be unflinchingly honest about your flaws to make it relatable, right, and not preach it people and just, you know, like, and memoir. are great. Like, I love memoirs. Again, hard to sing to sell as an agent, but there's no other medium, no offense to a podcast or a movie or a television show that puts you in the consciousness, right? If I read a book written by you in your voice, I'm in your head. And I want to like being in your head enough and be you and like you enough that I'm going to be devastated when something bad happens to you or when you lose something. But there's no better way.

to hack empathy and understanding than memoir. Like if you read, if you read that, you are that person for good or bad, questionable life choices or not, you know? And so I, like, I think it's, it's, like, important and powerful and really hard to do. When you look back at it now, does it all make sense why you went through the things that you had to go through? Yeah. I mean, we're viewing anything. You can make sense. You can see the patterns that you can't see when you're in.

Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't, I couldn't imagine, is that true? I don't know, I'm a big fan of delusional thinking. I always, like, imagine delusional things and they happen. Like, I have delusional goals. Like, it doesn't lessen as I get older. Yeah, I wouldn't change it. The only thing I would change, that's not true. Some of us learn things the hard way.

Like, I had to go through all of that. I had to get stripped of every identity that I created for myself in jail. I just started emptiness to be who I am today, to be more me than I've ever been in my life, right? That's the gift. Like, I'm just me now. Like, oh, I've never been me before. My regret, the thing I would change is that my, like, my path to evolving is my children's story of what they survived and their resilience. you know, as a parent, you never want to be the college essay topic, right? That was not what I wanted

as a mother, but my experience made me a better mother. I was a much better mother post-jail than I was before. Nothing to do with the drugs or being whatever, I mean, being present, yes, but I think it made me more real. It made my goals for my children. My goals used to be like, I hope my children all get into Stanford because I didn't get in there, you know? Like that was kind of and now it's like are you happy like the goal is like like be you and be happy and and and um and my children all turned out amazing so far like I went in college still he's amazing but um and never struggle with addiction or like kind and compassionate and smart and I'm a mom so I'm biased but they're you know like if I didn't know them I'd want to hang out with them like they're amazing but I think

it made me more real so there was nothing with them in high school in college and and as young men that they can't talk to me about. And there was nothing their friends couldn't talk to me about, right? Because what am I going to be like, oh, you did what? You know, like, I gave me more compassion and made me more real. And, you know, the one thing my boys have said, because they've come to a lot of book events, sometimes people will, like, put them on the spot, like ask some questions. And they're like, no matter what both our parents were going through, you know, we both

have had our chaotic times in different ways. he said they always made us feel loved. And I know that even with all of this, this whole crazy story, I know that my children felt, have always felt loved. And I think that's what kids need to be great, right? I don't think I felt that as a kid. Not a lot of people I know have felt that. So in that, I think I'm the best mother in the world, right?

That's the one thing I've done perfectly. What would you tell your 18-year-old self that was so quick to want to leave home and go to California? I mean, I would still tell her to leave. It's a good job. I think I would tell her, you know, I wish my 18-year-old self knew how to ask for help. I learned that a lot quicker.

It would have helped my 40-year-old self, right? And I think also, I remember being in jail and saying, if I get through this, I will never be afraid of anything ever again. I remember that, like, I remember what day, but I remember that night, just thinking that like a mantra. Because I think in there, I realize, like, I have lived every single day of my life in fear. And weird fear, unfounded fear, but just fear of, like, people, connection, wait, you're going to look at me in the eye and we're going to talk to each other.

I better, I better swallow a pill so I can do that. That's how it used to be. Right? Like fear of being seen, fear of being wrong, fear of all the things. Was it true that I was never afraid of anything? And no, but I remember that. So I think I would tell her to be more fearless. What's next for you? I'm writing my first novel. So I'm just finishing that fiction, which is actually like I didn't ever plan to. I've written 14 nonfiction books. 12 as other people. One is a co-author and one is me. Ten of those is men. So a novel, that's what I dreamed about as a kid when I was reading all those books and going to school is writing

fiction. So I'm just finishing that. I have a great fiction agent who's patiently waiting for me to finish. You know, I have this thing, like right now I do, I think about, this going to sound morbid, but I think about what will I regret not doing on my deathbed? Right. And you're too young to, like, have those thoughts right now. But that's what I think about. And one of them was like, I have to write a novel. It's what I've always do.

I've got to write fiction. You know, I haven't written fiction since I was 23. I'm doing that. I want to write for television. I want to try that. It's a whole different world. I want to work with Shonda Rhyme someday. That was like in my plan.

because that was the first time I thought about who writes for TV. I was watching Scandal. There was some monologue. I was like, who wrote this? Like I recognized that her writing, the rhythm of it. I was like, who wrote this writes like me? And that's what I learned about that. I was like, oh, television writing.

I never thought about who writes for TV. And it's really hard to get a job writing television if you never written for television. It's like my son in college, like, how do I get a first job? Because they want me to have a job first, but I need a first job, you know? experience. Same thing. So I am currently in Los Angeles, writing for television for the first time. Not for Shonda, but I'm on my first writing my first TV episode. I've been in a writer's room for a couple of months, and it's so much fun. That's awesome. Yeah. Well, Laura, I appreciate you coming out here today and making the time to do this. This was an incredible episode, and it was great to finally meet you. Yeah, nice to meet you. Thank you. Thank you. And safe travels back. Thank you.