Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Yonkers Gang Member — Then I Survived New York’s Maximum-Security Prisons | Jonathan Alvarez

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Starting point is 00:01:14 I charge him, and immediately he's like trying to back me off, and he swings on me, and he hits my left for him because I try to grab it. And without me knowing, I was like, y'all'm going to kill you. What do you think attracted you to hustling the most? Like, what did you enjoy the most about it? He took us to a dark alleyway, bro, under retrieve, cuffed up, and started banging on our heads, ribs, face, the whole nine.

Starting point is 00:01:34 Did you meant to take his life that night? I cried. I remember all I kept thinking of is 25 of life. Jonathan Alvarez was just 17 when he was indicted on a gang-related murder charge and sentenced to 15 years in prison. But instead of letting prison destroy him, he used it to rebuild his life, earning three degrees behind bars, founding a nonprofit for at-risk youth,

Starting point is 00:01:55 and turning his story from prison to purpose. This is one of the most powerful redemption stories you'll ever hear. Before we dive into this episode, remember new Lockton merch is available now. Use code Lockton 20 to get 20% off. I hope you enjoy this episode. Jonathan, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Thanks for having me, man.

Starting point is 00:02:17 Another Mary connection. She's been getting us so many good guests. I feel like I keep talking about her on the show. But she's plugging us in with some really great stories. So we appreciate her. Shout out, man. Tell the audience everything you got going on now. It's great work you're doing.

Starting point is 00:02:30 I want them to hear about it. Yeah. So I'm founded in exactly. director of 9-14 United. It's a nonprofit located in Westchester doing a lot of work around youth incarceration and violence prevention. We partner a lot with the corrections in Westchester County so we can help people come home from corrections to community, get them on the right pathway, help them with jobs, get them situated. And then on the prevention side, we work with the schools, the young kids who are gang involved, gang affected, and influenced. And again, trying to deter them

Starting point is 00:02:58 away from that kind of cycle of crime into like a better pathway, help them finish school. Yeah, we've been building for five and a half years. I founded it in 2020 with my partner. And now I have a team of 12, and we're just building. That's awesome, man. And we'll have the link to all your stuff that you send us in the description in this episode. Yeah, appreciate that. Where'd you grow up?

Starting point is 00:03:17 Yonka's Southside. I'm a bridge from the South Side. Southwest. What was that like growing up there? Man, you know, interesting. Like, I actually was writing my memoir, right? And I started to delve into the details. So when I think about, like, the area, it was more or less normal, right?

Starting point is 00:03:33 There's obviously some segregation. Like my side is more of the Spanish side of Yonkers. Specifically at that time, now it kind of changed. But I think about the household, right? Like I had lost my father around 10 years old, right? So I'm at home. My mom and my stepfather, the tension in the household was always thick. So I always kind of revert to like how that was growing up.

Starting point is 00:03:54 I think about the home, right? You know, my mom's is amazing, but it definitely was a lot of tension in the home of my stepfather being present. But in terms of like the neighborhood, it was regular things, man. Like we outside, run around playing, you know, things that kids play, right? As kids, and then I, as I got old, I got to see a different world. So I kind of be able to, like, describe my world differently from childhood than when I got into the streets. I see a whole other, you know what I'm saying, depiction. Did you have a good relationship with your dad before he passed?

Starting point is 00:04:23 No, he didn't pass. Sorry, no, he was deported. And I'm sent to the fed at 10. He was snatched for my life. So, no, I lost him at 10 to the feds. he got deported to DR. But yeah, he was like my hero. He was in the streets. He was like the luxury in my life.

Starting point is 00:04:37 You know what I mean? Versus living my mom was more like I lived in the hood. I lived in poverty. And so, yeah, he showed me what a different life looked like. But unfortunately, that came to the course. What did your mom do for work? Our jobs. You know, she never finished school.

Starting point is 00:04:52 I can't remember exactly what she was doing because it never was nothing stable. But ultimately, my stepfather was the breadwinner, right? You know, so yeah. Do you think your dad inspired you to go into the streets? Nah. I can't even, because I didn't know what he was doing until after the fact, right? His lifestyle was disguised and, like, professionalism. So, like, he was dressing, you know, he's a traditional Dominican.

Starting point is 00:05:17 So, like, the rain goes, slick bags, button downs. You know, he was real, like, you know, sleek. It wasn't, he didn't carry a street over. Like, I got to learn more, but my father reconnecting with him 26 years later, right? Then I actually knew him as a kid. I seen just this father figure who dressed nice, had nice calls. He lived in a nice home. So I didn't really made that connection until afterwards,

Starting point is 00:05:38 until I understood that damn, like everything I was living there was coming and supported behind him being in the streets. Why couldn't you guys talk to each other? So I lost my pops at 10. And honestly, I don't know how, but my mom never, well, why, but she never brought me to see him. Just can't even, I still don't know why exactly. Maybe she couldn't afford it.

Starting point is 00:05:59 But once he got shit, off. I know we was writing each other for a little bit. He'll call home a little bit, but then just disappeared. Like, it just stopped. And then eventually he got deported and that contact just died. So that's how that happened. Like, we just didn't have no connection. So you're 10 years old. He's there one day of a great relationship and then he's gone. How do you think that impacted you at that time? I mean, imagine getting a call, right? Like your mom, like come home. I got to talk to you. She's all sad and you walking in your room. You know, you see her, like, like looking old, like something happened.

Starting point is 00:06:32 She told me it about my father. And, you know, he was again, that support, that luxury in my life. So when she's like, yo, he got arrested, I don't know exactly for well, but I don't think he's coming back home. Devastated me. Like, immediately I'm crying. I just felt like it was so dark in the room. I knew something was wrong.

Starting point is 00:06:49 And that world that I talked about that he gave me was gone. And I just felt that. So as I look back now, like, you know, I reflect a lot on my story. His absence played a role in me. kind of pursuing the streets, right, trying to fill a void that I thought was going to give me what my father was giving me, right? That sense of comfort and safety. So in that way, you know, and then my mom not really being able to have the, you know, financial support to support me, give me what I wanted. I'm also being alert by the brothers around where I live at, my older cousins,

Starting point is 00:07:22 right? So I kind of grew up around it, but it wasn't until like 11, 12, I started to really, like, get more curious and started smoking and that kind of opened up a person. pathway that I never came back from. Did your mom end up telling you what he got arrested for? I'm trying to, yeah, I think like over time, I don't remember it wasn't like that day, but I'm sure she told me at some point that I knew it was drugs. You know what I'm saying? Like, he was a heavy hitter at that. Like he wasn't no like low runner. He was a heavy hitter. And it made sense like, you know, I think about the trips to Philly. He used to take me to the Benz. He had two Benz's, two B&Ws. He had a class.

Starting point is 00:08:00 He owned the condo and across town, Rolexes. You know, I never really put one in one together. I was young, I was naive. But it made sense, like, and I got to learn more about her story later on, but I'm sure we'll get to that. Did your mom know what he was doing? Yeah, she grew up in that. My mom was always the trophy wife. Like, she's always the pretty young sister that always had boyfriends that was in the field.

Starting point is 00:08:23 You know, yeah. And it's interesting because they never, so I grew up in a separated home. Like when I was born, they was already separate. So I didn't have them in the same space. You know what I mean? So when I like, as I could remember, I'm going to his house and I'm coming back home, right? So it was always two separate worlds for me. So, yeah.

Starting point is 00:08:42 Because your mom was so accustomed to that lifestyle, do you think that hampered her being able to steer you away from the streets? That's a good question. You know, I think she, you know, because she always tried. Like, you know, she always tried. But I think that at some point there was a sense of powerlessness. that she might have felt, right? Because, you know, there was a part in my journey after my father left.

Starting point is 00:09:06 My stepfather got, like, the feds raided my crib for my stepfather, right? Then she lost the back in this, so now it's just me and her by ourselves. And around that time, I already started getting high. I started selling drugs. So I think that she wanted more she tried, but I think she just didn't have that, like, yeah, there was a sense of powerlessness and taking me away because it was kind of normal if you think about it.

Starting point is 00:09:30 You know what I'm saying? Were you in school? Did you go to school? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so basically I got, I made it to 10th grade. I got kicked out of school for selling drugs and constant suspensions. So I ain't never finished the 10th grade. I had like three, like two 9th grade classes, maybe two 10th grade classes.

Starting point is 00:09:50 So I was always in limbo, right? Because again, I'm selling drugs. I'm getting high, right? So I never took school serious. And yeah, 10 grade, yeah, it was over. I got clipped, I got expelled. How would you have described 10th grade to you? Trapping.

Starting point is 00:10:06 Trapping. School became like a backdrop for just making moves between classes and connecting with the bros and like chasing girls. I wasn't like I can't remember sitting in class taking any exams, nothing. I remember clashing in the hallway with brothers across town. At one point, we almost went to war with it. I remember like again, cutting school, getting high, making sales like legit. and maybe even leaving early. And I think now, like, I don't know why I was going to school

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Starting point is 00:11:48 My greatest gadget. The Price Line app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle, deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than price line. Hold your horses. There's more. The app let you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beach fronts. And wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me up. Price line. What do you think attracted you to hustling the most? Like, what did you enjoy the most about it? Well, first it was, I was getting high. I was smoking weed, right? And I think that I'm a natural hustler. I think that, you know, I'm not going to be asking people to, you know, support my habit. So young, I was like, either

Starting point is 00:12:29 I want to get high, so I got to find a way to support it. So I started, I bought like a quarter ounce or something. I don't know what I bought. I was like 13 and flipped that. And the idea of independence, you know what I'm saying? Like, night sneakers, like early 2000s, right? We think about June and all these, like, different groups is out, making this idea of success associated with, like, glim and glitz and, like,

Starting point is 00:12:51 being, you know, a certain way. And I think that as you slowly flirt with the streets, whether you're just selling drugs or whatnot, I think there's a sense of like, you know, a sense of being somebody else for the environment. I call it the mask, right, that I had to kind of put on because I felt like that was needed. So it was the money, it was the freedom, it was the girls that came with it. It was the respect that came from the bros. So it was like a multitude of things. So you're kicked out of school at 10th grade.

Starting point is 00:13:19 What happens? So initially they sent me to what they called, it's like an outpatient drug program called breakaway. And I was under the content, it was under the condition that if I finished, like, that program for the rest of the day, I could come back to school and finish. But at that time, there was too much going on. Like, I'm a block away from war, right? So I had to kind of cross this block to get to that program. So now I'm going gripped up. I'm going with a knife. I'm not going on some days, right? There was too much going on. And then I started trapping at the program. I had brothers in there getting high. I was bringing in weed. And eventually, like,

Starting point is 00:13:57 less than a month in, they wanted to do a urine, and I refused. And that was it. I was officially kicked out the program and school was off the table. How'd your mom react to that? Sick, devastated. Like, now she's seeing, I'm only 15, like, schools off the table, right? Like, I would have to, I don't know what I had options in front of me, but I remember her crying, like, you got to figure your life out. Like, this is not it. Like, your father's not around. I'm struggling, you know? And she didn't really know I was selling weed yet. Like, I used to always try to freestyle. Even when I got caught making the cell, I, like, made up some other shit, right?

Starting point is 00:14:32 But I think, yeah, it was, she was, again, probably feeling more powerless because she's like, damn, my baby boy's going down the, you know, path. I can't stop him. Was your friend group in similar situations as you? Yeah, 100%. Like, a lot of my comrades and bros I grew up with, they, like, even one of my best friends come from, like, a tough background. He's from originally Atlanta, Georgia.

Starting point is 00:14:54 He's from Florida. he grew up in the South and he came up to New York and just had it rough. You know, he grew up in poverty in between homes, you know what I'm saying? And slept in the streets a lot, right? So him and I got real close. We started doing a lot of things together. And everybody around me I felt like was in some kind of broken home and some dysfunction. Were you guys gang affiliated at all?

Starting point is 00:15:17 Not initially. Like we was never really a gang. We were a black gang. Like, my hood where I'm from is more like a black gang. But we never looked at it like a gang. gang is more like a brotherhood, right? I felt like when I leveled up in the streets, when I started running with the bros on Lawrence and like really started banging Lawrence Street, that felt more like a camarader because it was structured there, right? There was a sense of hierarchy. We had like

Starting point is 00:15:41 seven generations in my hood and I came into that, right? Versus where I started trapping that is where I lived at on Broadway, right? If you know the South West Youngers, you got South Broadway, Raffer, Randolph, that's where I was at first. And I kind of merged and got involved with Lawrence Street. And that's when it felt more like a more cohesive group. You know, we're throwing up the L's, right? It's just certain codes we're using. That's like just naturally what we thought we did for us.

Starting point is 00:16:08 But it wasn't really a gang for us, if that makes sense. How long were you running on the streets for after you left school until you got busted for your first crime? Like two and a half. Well, first crime a year. So 16, I caught my first charge. It was gang assault. No, no, no, I'm lying. It was a temp.

Starting point is 00:16:25 which I never understood an assault in a second. And that was me dragged into a situation that had none to do it. I was more or less defending one of my friends that was pulled into something. And that was like, though, because we ended up going to the county. And a couple days later, we went to the grand jury, like a week later, and we beat it. We walked out on the RR. So we was like, that was my first time getting locked up and going to the county. That didn't really feel like much because it was kind of fast.

Starting point is 00:16:52 second time I got locked up was for disorderly conduct and weed possession. Police, they spanked me on this one. Yeah, it was weird because they was on it at that time trying to like threaten you to send you to jail for, you know, catching weed on you. Long story short, end up catching me. We had words and they fixed me. But I got charged with the disorderly conduct and weed possession. That was like 35 days in county going back and forth.

Starting point is 00:17:20 I was still Pice 16. What do you mean by fix you? Like they assaulted you? Oh no, like yeah, like they put hands and gloves on me. Yeah, like pin me up, three grown men slaying me off the bike, like that. That was normal for that area? Hell yeah. Especially on the south side.

Starting point is 00:17:34 I remember Pretty Boy, you know, a bunch of names that people know during that Ere Poppers. In fact, when I caught the first charge, like, and it's crazy because my right-hand man, D, he was not there when it happened. But when they swamped us, they took me in him. Now check this out. I'm Spanish out long hair, right? Dee is black with braids. One of the brothers that was involved, the day that it happened, is black. The cops take us, right, to the person that got assaulted, and he pointed me and D out.

Starting point is 00:18:13 They took us to a dark alleyway, bro, under retrieve, cuffed up, and started banging on our heads, ribs, face, the whole nine. the whole time, we're like 16, bro. We're probably like 130 pounds. And two white officers is going in on us as a result of, because the person that was assaulted, we found out, was like a delivery man for the police department. So they actually knew him. And so, yeah, Dee held that down.

Starting point is 00:18:37 That's when he really became my bro. But we both were 16. So that was normal. Like, they'll take you, they call it the pit at the time in August. The pier, people had a lot of experiences going to the pier, cuffed up, and I'm just working. Were all the cops like that or was it a select few? I think the culture was, that was normal, but there was a selective few that.

Starting point is 00:18:56 When you see them coming through and that Chevy or like three cars, like three deep in the car, you kind of knew like what was going on. Were these like plain closed officers or uniform cops? Both, but more or less DTs. Actually, yeah. No, they actually plain clothes, but they're dressed like also like in plain clothes. So yeah, they were blue suits but also wear plain clothes and stuff like that. Were any of these guys like dirty cops? Hell yeah.

Starting point is 00:19:21 They already got away with shooting people in the face, putting drugs on people. Yeah, facts. So after that disorderly contact arrest and the drug arrest, you do the 35 days and then you get out, what happens? I'm 16. I turned 17 that year. I think I was still going to court for that.

Starting point is 00:19:39 Yeah, because that was pending. Exactly. I forgot what was on the table for that, but I was going back and forth to court. I came home November, 2005, 2006 June is when I cashed the other case. And what case is that? This is first.

Starting point is 00:19:55 It was assault and the first. It went to murder in the second and I copped out to Manslow, the 15 years flat. What happened that day? So, yeah, it was crazy is that like, you know, I think about the kind of person I am, right? And I extended my loyalty to the wrong person. So imagine, you know, I'm trapped and I'm in the city on Post and Dykeman over there. I'm re-ing up with my bros and I got a phone call. And the phone call is one of my close bros with two other brothers.

Starting point is 00:20:24 And they talk about, yo, these dudes from a certain street called Carol came through and they just kind of like jumped Leroy or whatnot. And I didn't know what was going on. Like, mind you, at that time, I'm already getting money. I'm moving out the way. I'm reing up outside of the town now. And I get the call, found that what's going on. I'm kind of upset though, like, because I heard the name was involved.

Starting point is 00:20:45 I'm like, yo, son, I don't even like that. So I'm like, yo, I'll be in town like in an hour. Now, mind you, when we get to town, I give the work, the money to my partner at the time, older brother from the Bronx. And he used to always tell me like, yo, bro, your team is it going to be a liability. You know what I'm saying? I was, what, 17? I didn't care about that.

Starting point is 00:21:01 Like, we all moved together. It is what it is. And this was just another day in the hood for us. It wasn't nothing. Like, I knew what I was walking into. And I parked the V. They parked a V. He leaves.

Starting point is 00:21:15 And in my mind, I'm like, I'm not even going to get the gun. Like the grip is in the crib. I'm like, whatever. We leave it because this is another situation. I called the bros. We rallied up and we went to Carol. And, you know, I never talk about this, right? But I'm going to give you some details, right?

Starting point is 00:21:32 So imagine, like, I'm linking with the kid that I heard that was involved to set up the situation. So I'm calling him. He's telling me, nah, I wasn't supposed to go down like that. You know, I already spoke to you. I'm like, yo, tell me to come my side. and him and son is going to shoot the fade, they're going to shoot the five. But my whole, like, I was like, we baiting them. We're going to get them outside of do what we got to do.

Starting point is 00:21:54 And long story sure, when we get to the brother, I don't even want to say his name, you know, he's calling him. And as he's calling him, one of who became our co-defendant is bleeping me on the phone like, yo, bro, they're coming up the street. And when I look, I felt like I saw red because now I'm mad that not only that they violate bro, now they're pulling up. I've seen a bat. I see a knife. I see, like, one hole in his hip is like seven of them, and it's like six of us.

Starting point is 00:22:20 So imagine, like, I actually think about the movie Warriors. Two groups coming at each other on some old school, right? And I looked at the kid who ended up, the whole situation was over. And I'm like, yo, 21 Jump Street. You already know what that mean. Like, we're not even, there's no fair ones like. And I beeline to the dude with the bat. you know what I'm saying and y'all let me tell you something what's crazy is this on my way to the

Starting point is 00:22:48 situation there was a bat in the front lawn and I picked it up and somebody I was with was like bro you bugging you mad how we don't need no bat and I threw it I'm like yeah you right like who does that in my mind fast forward I'm in this and son got a bat I charge him I beeline and immediately he's like trying to back me off and he swings on me and he hits my heart I like left arm because I try to grab it. And without me knowing, I was like, yo, I'm gonna kill you. That was just my immediate. And, yo, one thing led to another, somebody went behind him.

Starting point is 00:23:26 Long story short, the bat's in my hand. And I went to work. I'm talking about I went to work. The way I could talk about it is like it wasn't even me, like, straight takeover, you know, because I started going to work on that. everybody move. I snapped out of it when one of his men's like screaming, yo, you're going to kill him, chill. And I look up. I'm like, and so I start chasing him. I start chasing him. I'm trying to grab him. He's running. Like, I like lost it. And on my way back, somebody went back over there. They hit him one more

Starting point is 00:24:00 time. And I ran back over there. And it was like maybe two, three more hits. And that was it. He stopped breathing. Word. You ever go through one of those chapters in life where you know you need therapy, but finding a therapist feels harder than your actual problems? I remember going through a period of burnout where everything felt heavy, work, relationships, even getting out of bed. And I kept trying to find a therapist online who actually took my insurance. And man, nothing. It felt impossible. And it shouldn't be that way.

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Starting point is 00:26:23 He had a lot of head shots, face, neck, everywhere, because he was blocking at one point. But then I think, like, I can't clearly, like, remember, but I know for sure a certain block went down and it was, like, that last one hit him in a certain place. Like, where do you think that anger came from, that rage? I think when I think back, it was, I think, pent up anger. Like, mind you, I'm 17. I ain't seen my father for seven years. Me and my mom are clashing, right? Because I'm already in the streets now full time.

Starting point is 00:27:02 I'm not listening. I'm not in school. Man, I'm still trying to figure out the hustle, right? I can't even explain if I think that there was like this pent-up anger. And like, for me, what drove me was that when I seen them pull up. Because mind you, I rather like defuse it too. Like I also had like a voice of reason at that age. I always, if it wasn't that serious, we kind of diffused it.

Starting point is 00:27:24 But they violated it already. So I'm still moving with that. And we pull up. And now y'all pulling up ready for war. You know what I'm saying? So I think I was so triggered, all ego, if you call it, you know what I'm saying? And I can't explain, like, how I took it from thinking this is a light situation to what I end up doing. So where do you guys go from there?

Starting point is 00:27:48 So from there, people start scattering, right? And I remember going the opposite direction. I ended up taking off my shirt. I had blood on my falls. I had true religions. I had blood on my jeans. And I remember like, now I'm panicking, though. I was very panicking, like, I wilded out just now.

Starting point is 00:28:10 And we end up going up the street. And somebody I was with, we ended up going to a side building where there was some girls at that we knew. And we went to their building for like two hours. I'm kind of like checking the temperature, like what was going on, I'm getting colds. And then from there, I went to my hood. And then one of the old times, the bros is like, oh, you bugging it? fuck out of it, yo, go home because they already heard what happened. And I was like, yeah, you're right.

Starting point is 00:28:37 So I went home and immediately I picked everything about my crib, the scale, the money, the gun, the drugs, putting a book back. I was going to stay at my partner's house. And that was my last time in the crib. Tell us about how you got arrested. I feel stupid when I tell the story. So a week before this happened, I got subpoena to court for my tattoo artist. Check this out.

Starting point is 00:29:03 There was a guy from Long Island. I don't even know what happened to Al. But he was copping weed off me one night. It was a May night. So he's walking. It's nice outside. Came to cops on the way back. He gets locked up for robbery.

Starting point is 00:29:22 Bro, this dude is not that. You feel me? So the owner of the shop called me in. Like, yo, he needs you to sign an affidavit. I'm like, I got him. I was his last contact so I could, like, speak for him. So, mind you, I don't know what the subpoena is. I'm like subpoena the court.

Starting point is 00:29:36 I'm thinking they're going to come rape my crib if I don't go. So that happened, let's say like a week prior to the incident. I was ready scheduled to go to court. Ironically, now that I know, I look back that Sunday before Monday, they raided who ended telling on me. It was his situation that he got into the fight early that day and I got the call from. They raided his crib. Homicide raided his crib.

Starting point is 00:29:59 They never raided my house that whole weekend. So I didn't know they were still like, meaning they weren't looking for me in my mind because they would have went to my crib ASAP. I'm checking on my mom's. I'm fake on the low. They raid his crib on a Sunday. And now when I get the paperwork Sunday at like 8.30, there's a statement written on me. That was him.

Starting point is 00:30:22 And as a result of that statement, they let a warrant out for my arrest Monday morning. So while I'm going to see the DA that I'm subpoenaed at the grand jury, now check this out. I don't know if this is really about me, but imagine walking in the Grand Jury. No one like the Grand Jury, right? It's like that law enforcement building. I'm walking in and I'm with my older brother from my father's side. And he's like, yo, I hate this building, bro, because you never know whether you're going to leave. And I'm like, man, I'm in and out of here.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Like, I'm thinking so like I'm on the low, right? Because again, I'm not getting no calls. My mom's not calling about, yo, they come into the house looking for you, but they've raided some house already. So I would have thought, I thought wrong, obviously, but there was no doubts. We upstairs waiting for like an hour. It's like nine in the morning. I'm waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting. Then the building along go off.

Starting point is 00:31:08 Everybody got to evacuate. We have to leave. We go to a nearby more. We smoke. We eat. I come back. I remember when I, I think I came back on our left. The day popped up like, yo, you coming back, right?

Starting point is 00:31:21 I'm like, you're relaxed. I'm here. Like, chill. It's like, all, cool. Come back. We go through the process. Back upstairs in the building. They let me in.

Starting point is 00:31:31 So while I'm in the room, I kind of gave myself up, basically, because I didn't know. I'm in the room. He's like, yo, listen, you're here for such and such. This case, boom, boom. He said that you could write an affidavit. I'm like, yeah, God, I'm signing an affidavit. As I'm doing that, two detectors walk in the room. One blocks the door.

Starting point is 00:31:52 He does just like three times my size. And one comes to the side of me, and he's like, yo, nice shirt. And I was like, yeah, it's academic. That was the brand I had on. And he's like, he's still quiet. I'm like, y'all, I'm done, right? He's like, yeah, yeah, you got to go. When I turned around, he grabbed my chest.

Starting point is 00:32:08 He was like, nah, but we have another case in Yonkers to talk to you about. Heart fell to my ass. It was over. I knew it. And the other detectives said, yeah, Barry Barnes. Now, in your mind that day, were you thinking that there was no way they had any evidence or could have got you for that case? Yeah, because I didn't, so we did some sloppy things with the actual weapon.

Starting point is 00:32:34 Somebody gave it to somebody that ended up throwing it in the sewers, right? Because mind you, this metal bat, blood everywhere over it, you're not going to run out of the situation with it, and mind you, I'm panicking. So somebody gave it to somebody who, you know, ultimately wrote a statement against me, right? And so they end up finding through that statement, they found the bat. But I found that out like when I already got indicted. But in the time, I'm like, yo, like, how to, so I, I kind of thought that they had like hearsay, which why I never wrote a statement, I ain't say nothing, because I'm like, yo, if you had me,

Starting point is 00:33:09 he's locked me up ready. And they were saying, like, yo, we're going to lock you off for salt and the first. He's a vegetable right now. Like, that was the narrative, right? So, yeah, I didn't think they had anything. So I was, like, kind of shocked. I'm like, damn, how the fuck did they connect the dots to me showing up for this situation? Like, I still was a little lost on that.

Starting point is 00:33:28 You knew that they knew. Would you have still gone that day? I would have not went. You would have booked it? I would have booked it because then I'm like, mind you, I'm there on my own accord to help somebody. But I don't know. Subpoena as a 17-year-old think of legal. You think of raids.

Starting point is 00:33:41 I was not aware of none of that. I would have booked it. I would never went. Don't you normally need an attorney to go to a subpoena like that at that age? You'll be honest. You probably do. And that's what I was 17, so I was still considered a minor year. But what killed me, though, is that on the way out, when I'm cuffed, I'm walking to the detective

Starting point is 00:34:05 call, he's sitting next to me, bro, and I'm like, this cuff looking out the window, and he's like, yo, so let me tell you what I know, right? He's like, it's like a ball of wax. I got the whole story. I just need your piece. And he starts detailing from what happened earlier that day to this person calling it. Yo, the whole nine, bro. I was sick.

Starting point is 00:34:29 I felt betrayed. I felt like, damn, this wasn't even my situation. So now I feel stupid. And I remember him walking him through all the details, bro. And I'm just sitting there, like, sick to my stomach until we got to the investigation unit. So what happens? Do you come clean? Do you get a lawyer?

Starting point is 00:34:46 Do you hear your mom? I cried. They was trying to get me to answer questions. You know what I'm saying? They wanted me to write a statement. They kept saying, well, they all pointing fingers on you and boom, boom. And I was like, yo, just sitting there quiet. And I remember getting frustrated like, yo, just take me to county already.

Starting point is 00:35:05 So they had no statement on me. I never told them nothing. And, you know, like, that's what it was. I just the whole time, I'm in my head like, yo, you make it done told on me. You know what I'm saying? Because the situation, again, wasn't something that I looked at super, like super serious. So now I'm feeling it all in one. And that's it.

Starting point is 00:35:25 He's like, all right. They try to play that whole, it's going to be my deal type thing. And I let it be. It took me to, they took me to bookings. And I remember being in bookings. And like an hour in, I couldn't sleep because I'm going to go to court the next day. Like two hours in, the cop coming me. Like, yo's your worst night, man.

Starting point is 00:35:45 He just died an hour ago. And he actually passed away? Yeah. So he was in the hospital. What was the timeline on that? It was already a couple days? Yeah. like three, four days.

Starting point is 00:35:56 And were you hearing anything on the streets about him? Or was it already out of your mind by that point? No, because I was still in booking. So, nah. I didn't have no. No, before you got arrested. Yeah, so I did hear like when they took him out. So somebody saw the stretcher.

Starting point is 00:36:11 The way they framed him like, yo, he was dead. That's what they was framing it. But I don't know. I didn't really, I'm getting colds. I'm talking about before getting booked. I'm getting calls from my cousin in Florida. She heard about it crying. You know, what's going to be?

Starting point is 00:36:24 going on, I heard such and such. Another phone call I got, like, yo, they're saying something's a vegetable. Like, people were just throwing different stories out there. But, and I was panicking. My anxiety was up. I'm smoking bloods back in blank. I might have said a prayer and all that. Trying to like, yo, please let me get away from the situation.

Starting point is 00:36:41 But I was sick, though. But then it didn't come to be when I actually got book and the cops said that. How did you feel in that moment when he said those words to you? I cried. I dead cried. Like, when he walked off, I cried. It was like, because I remember all I kept thinking of is 25 of life. It's all I'm 17, bro.

Starting point is 00:37:02 Like, 25 of life sounds crazy. And I remember just crying like with my head down. Like, yo, you plagued yourself. Like, I just, I'm more mad too. Like, I'm crying out of pain, like hurt. But like angry because I got told on. And this shit was over really nothing or something I don't even know really what was it about at the time. Think about it, right?

Starting point is 00:37:22 I got sucked into the situation. One thing went left. I went all the way left with it. So now I'm sitting there sick. Like my world just came crashing down. Everything I was so-called building just was destroyed. Did you meant to take his life that night? Nah.

Starting point is 00:37:37 I don't think that was an intention. Like, intention is like I'm a go there and I'm a, right? But I think that subconsciously, like, we operated so much on violence that even when I'm like, y'all, I'm going to kill you. That was normal, right? So, no, it wasn't intentional. That's why it got dropped from the murder to manslaughter. You know what I'm saying? The intentionality piece is where it's not really murder.

Starting point is 00:38:01 It's a manslaughter. What was your first conversation with your mom when you got charged with murder? Well, she came to see me. She heard he passed. That was the first visit. Crying. Baby, he passed. Like, this is about to get serious.

Starting point is 00:38:16 So, yeah, I remember watching her. My godmother cry on the visit floor like, yo, because they think in worst case scenario. Right. And there was a couple people involved, but not necessarily with the actual death, that they were trying to get me to like point fingers, but I held that shit. I didn't say nothing. And my mom was just like, yo, like, you fucking doing this shit over people that's telling on you. Like, she was more mad about that too. And I'm like, yo, my life, it's what's going to be. Like, naturally, I just, I made my better guy lying in type shit. And you didn't get Bond at all. Bail. Nah, we tried. We tried. I was trying to find somebody to put a house up. Nah, they dubbed that. Yeah, they dubbed that. What was it like to be held there as a 17-year-old kid accused a murder? Do they keep you in a separate facility? Or you're the kids of the adults?

Starting point is 00:39:11 Mind you, I'm already at that time. I'm banging. I'm J.O., right? I'm from Lawrence, and from the south side. Got to do some different projects there. So you're already kind of moving survival mode immediately because it's an extension of the streets, right? So you're going to show up, like if somebody tried to press you. So immediately I'm there. I got the murder on my back now. It's kind of a little weight. But I was like, yo, like, I'm a dude I got to do to put on here,

Starting point is 00:39:33 but I'm worried about my situation. So for me, it was like I did get caught up in the whole doggie door coach. I was doing a lot of sessions, been doing violating. Because there's a coach in there of like oppression and you're doing it. I'm not even like on that extortion shit, but it was more like flexing muscles I show niggas I got, right? But again, I was just doing that to do that. And my main thing was trying to get to the, like if I saw the dude who told on me, I was going to handle that.

Starting point is 00:39:58 And I ended up catching him like 10 months later. Wait, they actually put you guys in the same facility? Nah, the visit room. Yeah. That was while you were still fighting the case? I just coped out. Okay. So tell us about the cop out first and how that all looked.

Starting point is 00:40:10 Yeah, so they ultimately came to me. I was scared of bluff him. I ain't going to lie to you. My lawyer swindled with me because there was three other people that came behind me in the minor block that had bodies. and I think one dude tried to take it like bluff the offer and they took it off the table and put him to trial. So I was scared. I'm like, yo, what I mean? Like if I bluffed this offer, there was offering me 15 flats, my first offer.

Starting point is 00:40:33 I took my first offer. But I thought about it for like two, three weeks, spoke to my mom about it. And at one point, I was going to try to take it to trial because there's something called justification of defense. even though it's not like self-defense under certain circumstances you could leverage that but given the details and when we saw the autopsy

Starting point is 00:40:57 it was clipped for that like you can't justify that narrative like you know what I mean so once I knew that I was like damn she told me listen you're gonna end up getting manslaughter because of the circumstances of the fact that like he had the bat

Starting point is 00:41:12 that's what saved me he had the bat so had I brought the bat there And that happened, I might have been on murder. Like, they would have just said the intention was there ready. But because I disarmed them eventually and then what happened happened, that's what made a drop to man slaughter. So she's like, listen, 15 flat, you'd be home in 12 and some change.

Starting point is 00:41:32 I'm counting. I'm like, now I'll be 20. I'll be 20. I'm like, all right, maybe I could do that. But I'll keep a real true. I was cool with a 12 flat. I was going to push for a 12 flat. It's weird.

Starting point is 00:41:45 Like, now I'm 18, though. I turned 18 in September in County. So I spent my 18th all the way to my 30th birthday. All the Primal-like birthdays, I, like, lost that. And, you know, I remember being, like, telling brothers, like, yo, I'm trying to get 10 flat, 12 flat, light. Like, in my head up, like, that's light. Because I knew what I did.

Starting point is 00:42:04 I knew what it was, bro. I destroyed the whole family, right? I think I was still conscious enough, like, yo, you violated. And I found that he had a newborn, you know what I'm saying? So when you think about it like that is like, damn, my lawyer made me feel bad about that. So she ended up telling me it was the first offer. They wasn't budging.

Starting point is 00:42:20 And if I don't take the offer, I'm going to trial. If I go to trial, the judge got five to 25 years to give me flat. So she's like, you could probably go to trial and get the man slaughter. But then he could give you 25 flat. So that scared me. So that made me forward. This episode is brought to you by Netflix. The Four Seasons is back for Season 2, starring Tina Faye, Will Forte,

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Starting point is 00:44:06 does it seem like a lot of time? Or does it seem like not a lot of time? Mentally. That's a good question. I think it do something a lot of time. Hell yeah. But I think, remind you, I kept thinking 25 of life. So the life in my mind felt like forever. Even 15, that felt like a long time. The fact that there's light at the end of the tunnel, that's when I was like, all right, it's a lot of time, but it's doable. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think early on, I knew it was doable to 15 flat, 12 flat, because I was again pushing for that. And when I heard somebody got 25 of life, that's why I was like, I'm not playing with that. And there's people tell me like, yo, bro, you better take that, man.

Starting point is 00:44:47 Don't play with them people. In the DA at the time, in Westchester, was violating. So I was like, yo, let me take this 15 and take it on the hop. It was a lot of time, but I also felt like I got with my hand called for, if that makes sense. What do you think is the first thing that comes to mind when you're contemplating a deal like that? Is it the birthdays? Is it maybe even just relationships? Is it your family?

Starting point is 00:45:09 I think relationships. I think, I mean, I wasn't conscientiously thinking about. about it, but I think that at the time I lost my girlfriend, so I already had lost it within that first year in the county. And that was painful, I ain't going to lie to you. But, yeah, the idea that, like, yo, I'm really going to be away from home. I had my first dog I ended up leaving behind. You know what I'm saying? I thought about that. Like, I'm legit about to move into this other world. I don't know what the hell I'm getting into. Right? So I thought about that. I'm going to be alone. Where?

Starting point is 00:45:39 How much time did the other guys on the case get? There was only one other person. He got four years. Oh, no one else from that group that night? Yeah. Wow. They never caught them or they just never? Nothing. So you would have gotten less time if you gave up the other names?

Starting point is 00:45:53 That's what they say. But when you look at the circumstance of the case, like, they said that. They was trying to get me to like flip and the person I got four years end up telling on himself. And there's still rumors that they think he told on me, right? Because his statement is crazy. He wrote a statement on himself. And the statement implied what I did. it without saying it though.

Starting point is 00:46:15 So he did tell and um but he told him himself primarily but yeah and the other people was more like you know they ain't really do no damage. How hard was a sentencing hearing you know that was hard I ain't a lot watching the victim's family and everything. It was a fight almost broke out in the courtroom because of that my family wasn't hearing that like it was like kind of getting too crazy and my lawyer told me write a letter to the judge i mean to the family they didn't care about none of that shit or they called me me an animal, all that crazy shit.

Starting point is 00:46:45 I batting him down. It was talking to me crazy. But I held that. I kind of like, you know, it was heartfelt, but I think a part of me know what I did. So it was almost like, yo, you got to take what you gave out, bro. You got to like, so I wasn't, I felt it. I felt low. You know what I'm saying?

Starting point is 00:47:03 Do you think your reaction would be different today? If what? If you were in that courtroom now at this age in the same scenario. Would you feel differently? Probably, yeah. I think then I still probably was going through shock too, right? Like now I'm a little more in tune with my emotions and kind of understanding the impact of any decision I make. But I think then I did feel it, though.

Starting point is 00:47:26 I think I'm also an impact just naturally. So I think I felt it. But I also kind of understood what was going on. I'm getting sentenced. The lawyer already told me, yo, expect some things to be said. Just it's part of the process type of shit. All right. So you encounter the guy that snitched on you in the visiting room.

Starting point is 00:47:42 What happened? So the reason why I really went hard the third time because I saw him on two different occasions but it was just not idea. I couldn't get to him. And a couple of my brothers were getting at him across in different units. And I got the word one time like, bro saying he saw you

Starting point is 00:47:57 ain't do nothing. You over here got his fighting this thing. I'm like, what? It's late when I got into visit. And I just got copped out so I kind of was like a ready hype. And I'm coming off the visit room. He's kind of like a couple but tables away.

Starting point is 00:48:09 And I was ready to rush him but I knew that's not going to, because the police was going to break us up too fast. So I violated him and his wife. And I'm like, yo, come outside. And then he's like, I'm coming right now. So once I see him, I'm like, I go out the first door. So the visit room is right here and it's like the little pathway.

Starting point is 00:48:28 I go out that first door. I go through the ringer, the mag. I'm fake trying to get dressed slowly because I'm waiting for him to come. And once he comes through the door, I'm like, yo, I use the bathroom real quick. And he's like bathroom. The bathroom is the way he's at. It's right on the edge where the visit door is at. And he looked and he's like, he looked at skeptical.

Starting point is 00:48:49 He's like, oh, good head. Once he said good ahead, I ran out the booth and I just like, they tried to jump in front of me, but I got on top of something. And we just started going. This dude at the time, probably like six feet, 220 strong. I'll tell you this. It was the best fight I had in my life. I never went blow to blow, tussling.

Starting point is 00:49:09 At one point he almost knocked me out. I ain't going to lie to you because he was pinning me against the wall. Super strong. But like the survival instinct, you know, I was able to get him off his feet, slammed him. He's pulling my hair, though, because my hair was long. He was pulling my hair. I'm like, oh, my hair. But I'm like just, I got his neck, so I'm just drugging him.

Starting point is 00:49:29 And I'm talking shit. He's talking shit. It was like a lot of anger, like just straight focused. I remember that. But then he did some slash shit because the turtles was coming. Because once he say, you'll pull a pin. We fought for probably like, I don't know, 20-some seconds, maybe 30 seconds. I felt like a whole long time.

Starting point is 00:49:46 We getting it. And I remember feeling good like I'm handling this dude because he's super big than me. He pushes off me. And in the county, you can't be standing when the turtles come. So I remember we're like in this tight little hallway by the lawyer booth. So the visitor room is watching what's going on. And I remember turned around and I just got like knocked out by the shield. They groan turtle, they call the turtles, yo bro, rock my face, hit my whole eye.

Starting point is 00:50:14 I run into the wall. Then the dude, like, bounced me off the wall and slams me on my stomach. Yo, I stopped breathing. I started panic. I can't breathe. I can't breathe. And they jumped on top of me with the shield. Stop restraining.

Starting point is 00:50:26 I'm like, yo, I can't breathe. He's over there in the corner because he pushed me and then got on his knees. So he kind of didn't get the first rush. And then once they let go with me, now I caught my breath. I just laid there. My head fell hot. I was all red. You know, I had his blood on my oranges.

Starting point is 00:50:45 I remember that. And they took us to the bullpins, separate holding cells. And I'm just talking to him, bro. I'm like, yo, how you do this to me, bro? Like, how you call me and you tell on me? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, this was your situation. You know what I was doing, bro.

Starting point is 00:51:01 I had nothing to do with that. And he just wasn't saying much, bro. He tried to say he didn't tell. I'm like, bro, I got the statement of the same day that you turned yourself in. That's the only statement written on me. And he's like, yeah, then he kind of tried to tell me how, what he wrote. And I'm like, bro, there's five statements. And that's when I have to tell him, bro, like, you know, you can't walk away out of this.

Starting point is 00:51:27 Like, you already know what's going to happen to you. Like, any way you go, you know good. So I kept doing mad death threats. And so I got tired. I was already tired from fighting, but I kind of just calmed down, stood there. The police brought us back. They brought me back to the South Block. I'm in a minor block.

Starting point is 00:51:40 He's in the adult jail because he was 19 at the time. Yeah, he was 19 at the time. And all the bros in a block was kind of like praising me like because they knew I had to get to this dude. And when you leave the minor block and if there's a cold signal, like nine into ten times people know like, oh shit, that might be jail. And that's exactly how it paint out because I didn't get back to the cell blocks like 12 at night. Do you think that gave you closure? Nah, I get a little bit, a little bit. Like, do you think...

Starting point is 00:52:10 Like, I felt good that I got him, like, that I settled the score. Yeah, like, do you think that if you didn't... If that didn't happen, you would have held a lot more resentment the years you did in prison after? Yeah. So I think it gave me a peace of mind that at least he knows, I know, that I got it off. Like, had I not had that, I might have felt he got one up on me. You know what I'm saying? What my concern was, though, is...

Starting point is 00:52:39 because he ended up catching another case in a body, robberies, and CT. When he got out? No, he never did time. The time that I met him in the county was some, I don't know what he was locked up for. He was on a whole other situation. Oh, okay. You feel me? He's on a whole other situation.

Starting point is 00:52:55 And the very first time I seen him, I gave him the heads up. Like, he was, I was coming for him because he was at a gate. I was coming out of wreck. And he's like, yo, what up? He tried to say, what up to me? I'm like, what up? Man, there's a lift for you. And I'm like, long story, sure, ever since that, he was getting attacked everywhere.

Starting point is 00:53:09 went. So he got out and I'm worried I got that he had got like sentenced to 15 years. He caught a body with a robbery. Young kid got shot some crazy shit. So my concern while I was up north that I was going to see him because now that's a different playing field. Now we talk about, you know, potentially grabbing knives and like kind of stepping into it in a whole other situation. One thing prison taught me is this. You learn fast how to spot a scam and there protecting yourself is everything. And honestly, that mindset doesn't go away when you come home. Out here, especially around the holidays, there are fake deals, shady links, and scams everywhere trying to catch you slipping.

Starting point is 00:53:49 So having tools that help you stay ahead of that stuff is huge. And that's exactly why I like Cash App Security features. They build protection right into the app so you don't have to wonder if someone's trying to take advantage of you. The holidays are all about finding the perfect gift, but this time of year, not every deal is actually what it seems. Scammers are getting more creative to trick people into sharing their payment info through methods like fake shopping sites and giveaways that are way too good to be true. Luckily, Cash Apps 24-7 fraud monitoring helps detect and alert you for unusual card activity should someone gain access to your card so you could act fast if something seems off. You can also lock or unlock your cash app

Starting point is 00:54:35 card instantly right in the app for extra control and peace of mind. Stay one step ahead of scams this season and keep your money secure with Cash App. Cash App gives you that peace of mind, the kind where you actually feel in control. And after everything I've lived through, that goes a long way. For a limited time only, new Cash App customers can use our exclusive code, Secure 10, to earn some additional cash. For real, just download Cash app, use our exclusive referral code. secure 10 in your profile, send $5 to a friend within 14 days, and you'll get $10 dropped into your

Starting point is 00:55:11 account. Terms supply, that's money, that's Cash App. CashUp is a financial services platform, not a bank, banking services provided by Cash Apps bank partners, prepaid debit cards issued by Sutton Bank, member FDIC, promotions provided by Cash App, a Block Inc brand, visit cash.com slash legal slash podcast for full disclosures. So once you leave the county, where did they send you to for your first prison? You go to downstate first. You go to downstate first. I was there for like maybe two weeks.

Starting point is 00:55:44 That's when you get the whole buzz cut. They made me take my box braids out, cut my head, put me through this whole. I call it like an identity shedding process, bro. They strip you of your identity. And you go through that whole process. You get your state number. It was a quiet introduction to prison life. There was nothing happening in downstate two weeks later.

Starting point is 00:56:03 Like, yo, you're packing up. You're going to sing-sing. That was my first state prison. What did you know about Sing Sing going into it? Everybody was loving Sing Sing. It was hype. It was like, yo, you're going to the swing? They called the swing.

Starting point is 00:56:14 Because it was like, dude's getting girls there. Drugs is everywhere. You can wear what you want. You fly. You feel like a sense of freedom. It's super loose. Like no structure compared to like my other facility, Comstock that I'll touch on.

Starting point is 00:56:30 Super structure in Comstock. Here's like super loose. Everybody look alike. There's not really that much. white officers, more Spanish and black officers, you're 20 minutes from the town, so you get a lot of visits, you gain packages, a different world. You know what I'm saying? A different world. How are people treating you? Being that age, the type of charges. I mean, I guess your charge was reduced to manslaughter, so it's not as bad as other charges, I'm sure you encountered there.

Starting point is 00:56:56 Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like, people are five murders type shit. Yeah, but having a body still, because that's still a body is like in a weird way, still gonna hold some respect. Like young boy locked up for a body, you know what I'm saying? So when I met, so when you get to certain facilities like in Westchester is like 9-14. So people from Westchester, whether you white planes, and Rochelle, Yonk, is they already tuned in.

Starting point is 00:57:19 Like, yo, somebody from 9-1-4 is here. So that's how you kind of connect with people that you know and meet. And then I had somebody who was like an extended relative to me that was already there. He did over 10 years at the time. So I had somebody I knew. So I connected with him there and just built my relationships.

Starting point is 00:57:37 And so where do you go after there? I was there for 10 months. I was there for, no, like nine months. I'm sorry because I was only transit. And they shipped me to Com Stop. Oh, so Sing Sing was considered a transit spot? At the time. You either land there as transit or GP, general population.

Starting point is 00:57:56 I was only transit. I was trying to do because you could convert over the population. but you have to get a certain job. I was trying to do all that. It didn't work. That's a long time in transit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people there are two years.

Starting point is 00:58:06 It must suck to know you're kind of still in limbo. Yeah. But it also helps break up the time, too, your sentence. Yeah, some people don't want to leave Sing Sing once you go there. But it was a blessing this guy, though, because once I got to Comstock is like, that's when I really felt real jail. Like, when I tell you, for real, for real, CEOs, six feet, one was almost seven feet tall, super huge.

Starting point is 00:58:29 Some got KK. case tattoos on their arms they chewing tobacco yeah whole another world then syncing what do you think was your first real prison comstock situation comstock like the feeling when you come off the bus you you already know what you're dealing with and everybody so you ever remember there's a fearmongering happening inside the state with the whole like attica you hear about attica you got a whole version of attica clinton casack e comstock like these jails is like based on violence and control on both sides and police. So as baked in your mom

Starting point is 00:59:04 versus the swing is like very chill. Shit happens. It's drugs, violence. Everybody got knobs. Like, don't get me wrong. Dudes get cut, stabbed.

Starting point is 00:59:12 The swing is very dangerous too. But it's also like, you got to call on for that. Versus in Comstock, I felt like if you rubbed the wrong, cop the wrong way, something like that, like police was different.

Starting point is 00:59:23 They was killing niggas of me. You know what I'm saying? So, and what really gave me Comstock, like I saw my first knife to name. knife fight from a distance in the yard I heard about knife to night's fights I see the segregation is crazy everything filled like prison like legit super different versus in a swing yes they're segregation yeah everybody got the on table but there's a lot of co-mingling you get what I'm saying

Starting point is 00:59:47 versus what I saw was like separation so everything was structured but the police for me was like just another level of enforcement that like gave me that jail experience like comstock made me militant. That's how I came home to be so militant and focused because it was like, you know, don't talk when you're not talked to, like when you're not spoken to, right, observe your surroundings. You got to know when the war's about to happen, put your back against the wall, like that type of vibe. Don't mess with this. I was not gang involved, so I didn't have to worry about the politics that came with that. I wasn't dabbling into the drugs. I was like, I'm staying away from that. I wanted to get back closer to this swing. Like,

Starting point is 01:00:25 I wanted to get back home. And I remember this one moment in a soap show. shop. Actually, I'm writing about this in my memoir because it's like a real moment that gave me, like, the insight to how powerless we are in prison. Like, no matter how tough you are, like you are not in control as much as you want to believe, right? So I'm in a soap shop. It's like a 1940s manufacturer, bro. There's like division of labor lines. You got strict hierarchy, white officers, people of color managing the space, different sections, right? Everybody's doing different things. And the soap shop gives you, like, a decent prison. wage. So everybody wants to kind of, it's a vocation-based job. So like you get a little more than

Starting point is 01:01:04 a regular job like janitor. So you get like a trustee or whatnot, right? So you actually get more money. And there's some perks there like working in because you go to a certain unit, whatever. And this one day, imagine ordinary day we all punching our cards in regular. Everybody know each other from just being there working. I'm probably in for a couple months. And we walking in and everybody punching their cards. Everything's regular. We got there really early after breakfast we go into our sign section and then missa that boom shit pop off between two dudes right one dude old time of going out a young brother because of a rumor the young brother cut the old time and the midst of him cutting old time and the police rush in now that's normal shit at the

Starting point is 01:01:46 time like whatever that happens but what wasn't normal was what i was about the experience with like legit i'm not even lying like 60 officers came into the soap shop and when i tell you in like the amount of white bodies I've seen coming down the stairs and they're so huge, yo, they look like they was coming to kill because they heard an officer was in the vicinity was might get cut. So immediately safety, security, they're coming in, batons drawing, they're flipping shit, and they all separate and going to each section of the soap shop. So it's like me and four of the brothers in one section in the section that we worked in,

Starting point is 01:02:23 and they beeline to every section yelling, turn in its protocol, turn around, face the fucking wall. And I'm 19 at the time, bro. And them yelling, banging on walls, don't turn around. Don't fucking turn around. I'll fucking split your head open. They're wilding. I'm talking about they violating, talking crazy. Everybody fall in line.

Starting point is 01:02:43 We go on the wall, put your arms out, feedback, a feedback stretch. Don't look back. Mind you, we doing that. And the police, it's like at least we were like six, four, six of us in that section. There are at least 12 officers there. Righteous monitoring, yelling, don't turn around. While that's happening, they grabbing this young boy, and when I tell you, all you heard him was scream,

Starting point is 01:03:06 yo, my arm, my arm, he breaking my arm, yo, chill. They're asking, where's the weapon? Yo, chill, my leg, my leg. Yo, keys jangling, boots, them screaming. Where the fuck is the knife? Where the fuck is a knife? They think it's a knife. Him screaming, yo, chill, my arm, my arm.

Starting point is 01:03:23 Yo, slammed him repeatedly. You heard it in a whole time. time I hand them screen, bro, and I could not turn around. Exema is unpredictable. But you can flare less with ebbglis. A once-monthly treatment for moderate to severe eczema. After an initial four-month- or longer dosing phase, about four in 10 people taking ebb glist,

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Starting point is 01:05:39 and being a part of something. Did it feel weird to not have that in prison? Nah. Well, I had people that I dealt with, right? So in the soap shop, there was a couple people from 9-14 that I was connected to. But remind you, I came out of the mindset that I got told on. So immediately I learned my lesson. I'm going to take it far and I'm going to hold it down, right?

Starting point is 01:06:03 Now everybody's going to match the energy. So even at a young age, I think that what happened to me with the statements and how something that was nothing turned into something major fractured my like notion of like this camaraderie. Fractured that. Like you're not going to, some people take two, three times to learn. I don't need one time. So I already was very skeptical. on how I move that you might be from 9-14, I did with you from a distance until I feel safe

Starting point is 01:06:31 with you. I got to feel safe with you. So I think from even at a young age coming to the swing, I was Ravi Along, you know what I'm saying? So, and then something that happened in the swing that didn't, thank God it, it didn't go left, was my bros came to visit me. It's the first in that transit experience that nine months I was there. They was like, yo, the victim uncle's here. So now I'm like, oh, shit.

Starting point is 01:06:55 And that shit turned to a whole situation. we organized a meat, basically. First time I'm bringing a grip to my own little sharp and toothbrush to the yard. I'm scared about the whole nine. She's hanging on my first time doing that. But I felt like this dude's dangerous. I know he's very dangerous. But I was brave enough to walk up and have that meat.

Starting point is 01:07:13 And thank God. And I met him already, bro. So in my mind, I'm like, damn. I was a little kind of felt the way about that. So I'm like, then they introduced me to everybody here. And they're telling me he related to his son. He knew who I was the whole time. but he wasn't related to the dude

Starting point is 01:07:27 and he kept it real he said how that I was you won't even be here but I'm 18 years old he's like 34 so he wasn't actually they called him and the uncle no because his his kids was extended relative to that family

Starting point is 01:07:39 okay there was an affiliation but the word we got on the vittal my my brothers came to tell me was like yo son son's here I ain't gonna lie I went to panic mode I was like damn I'm in the cell like yo karma really coming back to me

Starting point is 01:07:53 because I ain't know what to do You know what I'm saying? Until I spoke to who was like an uncle to me, somebody else. I knew who knew him. And then they organized a conversation. And we sort of got cool after that. Like it wasn't, you know what I'm saying, much animosity. But that moment of in a yard and, like, anxieties high, my first situation.

Starting point is 01:08:13 I don't know what to expect. I never had a knife to knife. I'm a scrap. I'm a fight. But, like, knife to knife is different. You know what I'm saying? I don't know what he bring into this situation. I know he's dangerous.

Starting point is 01:08:23 like you know but thank God that would but for me it was a lesson of like this world plays for keeps you know what I'm saying like being 18 and getting that like shock of look how serious it could have been how he'd been the uncle you know what I'm saying so that was a thing that took away so I say that to share that this idea of camaraderie was already like an illusion in me I wasn't really buying into that so when I was in a stock I got really close to the brother from Jersey shout out to my brother Spencer, like, you know, it was one of my guys. We bunk together and all that. And other people who I met during the way, but I was very skeptical of like this 9-1-4 situation. Did you find out more about your dad when you're in prison?

Starting point is 01:09:05 Yeah. So here's a fun fact. You know your Dominican history? Not much. All right. So my grandfather was the Dominican dictator of Dominican Republic for 31 years. If you Google through here or Raphael through, that's legit my father's father. So my father always told me that as a kid, he showed me there's movies and, you know the time of the butterflies? Anyway, long story short, you Google at movies, documentaries, books. I was studying my grandfather my whole bit. And that was the way I got to better understand my father's situation because my father was a bastard child.

Starting point is 01:09:41 Me and my father got connected in 2000, I think 11 or 12. I was in Cassackie. As you know, I spent three years locked up in federal prison and I can. could tell you, mail call was sacred. When you're inside, a photo isn't just a picture. It's a reminder that there's still a world out there waiting for you. The holidays are hard when you're separated. But pellipost.com makes it easy to send photos directly to your loved one in prison. Pelopost.com is the original Photos to Prison app. They've been doing this longer than anyone. No trips to the post office. No confusion about the rules. They handle everything. And right now,

Starting point is 01:10:19 your first four by six photo order is completely free, no catch, no strings, just a way to let someone you care about know they matter, especially during the holidays. Go to pellipost.com and use code locked in at checkout. Send those photos. Let them see your smile, your kids, your life, because I promise you that photo is going up on their wall and they're going to look at it every single day. Pelopost.com, keeping families connected one photo at a time. How did you guys get connected? He found a number, bro, that never changed for 25 years. It was my grandmother's number and called that number and got to my aunt. My aunt got to my mom and got to my ex-wife at the time.

Starting point is 01:10:57 How did he feel about you being in prison? He had heard about it. He was sick. He was really sick. Yeah, he was sick because he just did five, six years of what he did in the fed. So, you know, I was his baby boy. Like last time he left me, I was 10 years old, you know? So he was hurt.

Starting point is 01:11:15 He was very hurt. and he felt like he played a role in that by not being there. But we started connecting and talking. Wait, so you got married before you went to prison. I got married in prison. To someone you knew on the street or someone that, like, wrote to you? No, no. I had a couple situations.

Starting point is 01:11:33 I got married at 18, bro. While you're in prison. In prison and Sing Sing. And how old was she? She was like a year younger than me. She was around my age. She was like 17, maybe 18. And her parents were okay with that?

Starting point is 01:11:43 Nah, they didn't know. I've never heard of a marriage this young. in prison. I was married for like almost seven and a half years, bro. And she was loyal the whole time? Super loyal. So when you make it that far with the person in prison, why I get divorced at that point? Nah, so our situation was complicated. She was trying to become an officer, a Yonka's police officer. And they weren't letting her because they kept telling her you got on, you're married to a felon. So she ultimately was like, yo, we're going to divorce. But we both knew long distance, meaning for the next four and a half years in my bitter.

Starting point is 01:12:16 I'm not going to see you. So I knew on my heart it wasn't going to work. And two, I also felt like there was a lot. So I had lost, like my family, in other words, weren't there for me for a lot of years. Some, like my aunts would send me a card here and there. But trooping and pulling up and coming to see me, I didn't get that for many, many years. She was the only one. There was so much tension between her and my actual family that that kind of put a lot of strain on the relationship.

Starting point is 01:12:45 Like, damn, do I want to build a life with this person? If her, my mama at war, her my sister at war, her my cousin, her, my brother, like, it just was a very bad pair. So I knew that that was going to play a role. But more or less, when we did the long-distance relationship and we got divorced on paper, there was a lot of things that was coming back to me that broke down the trust. You feel me? And that was kind of like the straw that broke the cameras back. So once this trust was broken, which is the reason why I married her, because I almost didn't want to do it. She more or less was like, yo, but I want to be with you.

Starting point is 01:13:21 And I was like, and I went to my aunt about it. I went to my mom about it. Like, yo, do it. She's a good girl. Like, she's going to hold you down. So I did it, but I more or less trusted her because I had a couple of situations I could have married. But I didn't trust them. No, I know they wasn't going to be doing the right thing by me.

Starting point is 01:13:35 You know what I'm saying? So yeah, we got married. We got divorced in 2015. 14 around there. And we got our last trailer visit. We spun the compound and was like, yo, this is it. And then we was trying to like hold on.

Starting point is 01:13:50 But that last year and a half before officially I called it quits, there was a lot that I was getting like a word on situations. And, you know, and when I came home, I almost was going to reconnect, but I knew it wasn't a good idea. And we cool, like, to this day, like, she's in probation. Oh, she's a probation officer? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:09 Did she ever end up becoming the cop? Nah. I think she got part of the Warren Squad or something like that. And do you guys still talk? Nah, not like I'm in a whole relationship now for five and a half years with somebody else. Oh, congratulations. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It would have been funny if she was your probation officer. Like they didn't know that you guys were married or anything.

Starting point is 01:14:29 But she actually connected us to a service in Westchester due to her probation because she'll refer people to us because in the work I do. So we talked, but then I had to draw a final line on that just because it was whole. also weird too. After Comstock, where'd you go? Comstock, I went back to the swing. And this time, I was there for three years before going to the box. So going back to the swing from Comstock, like, I'm back home, I'm General Pop now. I'm not, I'm, I want to do my whole bid there.

Starting point is 01:14:57 I'm getting trailers back again. I'm chilling. Some people are able to come see me now that I'm closer to home. I was there for a while. They had college programs. I'm like, I'm going to take advantage of this. You know, I had got my GED officially, right? after my second try and then i got into the college program and then it was in that program i got

Starting point is 01:15:16 to a situation and got shipped out to cat saki did like four months in the box or and cat saki is where you finish here no it's a whole other jail which is another gladiator oppressive-ass fucking facility i was there for like 18 months and then from there i end up putting in the transfer to another jail called eastern correction facility which is known as nap because it's a nap in new york But it was like an honor jail. It was like the luxuries that everybody wanted to go to. They got the trailer visits. They got the big gym.

Starting point is 01:15:45 They got good food. They got all kind of stuff that made you feel like you could do your bid there. So what really got me attracted to Easton was they had the college program that I got to actually get into the program after my second trial. And I got into Bard. Bard College called Bar Prison Initiative is the actual prison satellite program. This is a $258,000 degree that we get for free. but a super tough rigorous program no joke like we had Yale professors Harvard professors like no joke and um that's where my whole bid took a different form because now I'm like an academic

Starting point is 01:16:19 I'm working out right I'm single officially right like I'm not with my ex and um yeah I just really focused and I always been a person like to focus on myself build and self-development always been my thing even early on in my bid but when I had them skirmishes and going to the box and all that That's just incidences that happen. When I got into college, it felt like elevated. So I was super focused, and I was there for three years, and then my classification dropped from max to medium. And because I'm in the college program, they sent me to the medium facility called Woodburn. Now, Woodburn, another beautiful jail, right?

Starting point is 01:16:57 I had some fun in there. I have fun in there. You hear me? I broke some rules in there. And then I got into the bachelor's program, sent me back to Easton. I went home from Easton. And at that prison, is that when you're really starting to think about the future? Woodburn, I think I was ready in school two years.

Starting point is 01:17:22 So being in school, like, super different. It helped me think about my future in a lot of ways. But when I got back to Eastern is when I started building my plan. The last two years in my bid, I was doing. what they call a senior thesis. It's a two-year research and independent research project. And I'm talking about super,

Starting point is 01:17:39 bro, rigorous shit, bro. I wrote 136 pages, six chapters on fashion trends and urban poverty. Word, I even, like, arguably traced the origin of ghetto fashion to the Jim Crow South

Starting point is 01:17:49 in the early 1900s. Super rich thesis. That is what inspired me to come home to do what I started to do, which was fashion curation. I want to get into fashion.

Starting point is 01:17:59 Word. Did you ever think you were capable of doing that? Like, when you're sitting in prison, you're working on those projects, do you ever reflect back on teenage you? Teenage me. I don't know.

Starting point is 01:18:09 Some people tell me I've always been smart, but I always felt confident in that I could do what I put my mind to. So, yeah, I guess I always had, like, that self-belief. That's why I went hard. Even though I felt like I had to work two, three times as harder than others to get it, right? You know, and I think, like, I did if I had to say, like, I had to work, in my opinion, twice as hard as the average person. But once I broke through, I kind of flourished. What scared you the most about leaving prison after such a long sentence and missing those crucial, you know, development years?

Starting point is 01:18:40 I don't think nothing scared me. I didn't have fear. I didn't have a fear coming. I was hyped. I was excited. I had a game plan. I'm going to be a fashion curator. I'm going to go to get my master's because I had got my bachelor's now at this point.

Starting point is 01:18:53 Nah, I was good. You know what I'm saying? The only thing I did think about is like, damn, if I see the dude's family, like, how's that going to go? And I did. Word. That was another situation. I seen three different family, you know, members where we had a deep conversation. And I guess forgiveness is there or whatnot.

Starting point is 01:19:09 But I did think about that a little bit, but not in terms of, like, fear and come home. Now, I was ready. I'm like, I'm coming home. Like, people who know me, like, I go hard. I'm ambitious. I'm like, you know what I'm saying? So, man, there was no fear. Were you worried that life moved on without you by the time you got home, that everything was going to be different?

Starting point is 01:19:28 Well, I mean, on the family level, what I didn't like was that my family. family divided so before I left my family was like this my mom and my aunt was like best friends during my bid that fractured I so we we lost two people I lost my uncle committed suicide got rest of soul junior and then my grandfather died a year later so I went down to two funerals while I was in eastern getting ready to come home but in that process the death and all that divided the family on two different sides and this is like my immediate family family, if that makes sense. So I was coming home to that shit. That shit changed everything. It still, to this day, it's like not cool. You know what I'm saying? And I went home to live with

Starting point is 01:20:11 my aunt, now my mother, because my mom couldn't take me in because I guess Section 8 or whatever. And my aunt had a, you know, situation. Plus, she's like a second mom to me. You know, shout out Mama Rose. And, um, yeah. Do you think there are qualities that you lacked, that you were unable to develop while you're in prison that you would have otherwise developed in the free world during those years that you realized you didn't have when you got out? Like if they was

Starting point is 01:20:38 like that I lacked that I developed because of my time? Or it didn't develop? Yeah, I definitely lacked. Like I was not a good public speaker. I was not confident. And I'll tell you this. I couldn't hold a substantial conversation.

Starting point is 01:20:50 I ain't know about history, slavery, capitalism, none of that shit. So I was super just like, you know, uneducated. So the more that I got educated, the more I was doing a lot of reading, and I was building my vocabulary, that kind of gave me a little sway, you know, a little swag on, like, I know some things, right?

Starting point is 01:21:08 And I think that when I came home, that helped me too old. I learned how to write. It's another thing. I learned how to understand logical arguments due to having writing essays for freaking five years. So I came home with, like, a real academic skill set that transferred over

Starting point is 01:21:24 into just being, like, a professional that I would have never developed had I been not in prison. Was there something you were expecting? when you got home that wasn't there? Or it didn't happen? I mean, I got a lot of love when I came home. A lot of people gave me money.

Starting point is 01:21:41 I might expect a little more, but that's me being mad entitled. But, um, not kind of, yeah, maybe like I wanted things faster. Okay? I had this vision of like day one, day three,

Starting point is 01:21:56 day five, first week, second week. I was going to be situated. But it probably took like three, four weeks to get, you know, to make my rounds and feel like I got love shown to me, but that was mad entitlement. Like, I look back like, oh, you was doing too much. But they showed me love, though.

Starting point is 01:22:10 A lot of people came through, whether they gave me, you know, money, or they took me shopping, or they brought me out to dinner. So, nah, things kind of panned out eventually in a good way. What I was blessed, what I didn't expect was, like, to move on my aunt. You know, like, that was a blessing. I was not supposed to go to. I was supposed to go to CT. Oh, shit, Stanford.

Starting point is 01:22:28 Shout out to Jim and Moy. They have a really nice house in Stanford. but the interstate transfer didn't get approved. So I have to go back to youngest. And honestly, thank God. Like, I think living in CT, I've been by myself out here miserable. How long did it take you to really feel like you were back on your feet and building a life? I think I got home 2018.

Starting point is 01:22:56 I got into school. I was working. So I'll say August 2020. is when I got my first full-time job, got my first contract working in corrections. I was building my agency. November is when I moved out my on-crip. So I say around November 2020, going to 2021 is when I felt like, yo, I'm good. I got enough money to pay all my bills.

Starting point is 01:23:22 I got my car. Got my crib. It took me about, I'll say, like, almost, yeah, about three years. About three years to feel officially settled out. I was making money during the pandemic because of unemployment. But I was not situated still. I was still like, you know, I had just met my girl at the time. I didn't have my call yet.

Starting point is 01:23:40 So I'll say 20, late 2020, going to the 2021. How do you make peace with what you did that night and losing that much of your life to prison? Um, I mean, taking a step back, if we look at, like, neighborhoods that are poverty stricken, crime written, right? I was a product of that. And unfortunately, you know, it's real to. to say it could have been me, right? So knowing the turn of events of what happened was like, damn, we all was a byproduct of what we were raised in.

Starting point is 01:24:15 So when I take a step back and look and find peace, it's like, damn, the system by design, because of how we grew up in the system, yeah, I might know right and wrong, but all I know is violence and certain things that's normalized. It's like, damn, I just didn't know better, so I can't be hard on myself. Plus, I pay so much time forward.

Starting point is 01:24:34 you know, doing, I mean, in prison, I paid my debt and then coming back home and the work I do now is kind of like multiplying, you know, like I'm saving a lot of lives now in the work that I do. I'm building a lot of lives. I'm transforming a lot of lives. So I think I found peace and that I found the purpose that's giving back, that's giving life back to my community versus, I mean, you know, compared to that one life that ultimately was lost. Tell us tell everyone about how you transitioned from school, you know, getting out to building what you have now. So, 2019 is when I got into Parsons, the new school. I was so before that, I applied to the program because of my fashion background and stuff. And I got awarded a near full scholarship, right? This is like the Harvard of fashion. Up until 2019, September, when the first semester started, I was working our jobs. I got in the program and I talked about this other platforms, man.

Starting point is 01:25:28 Like, I had my first mental health breakdown. I mean, I'm coming off the street in 2000, I mean, in 2019, December. and I just started crying. Like, I'm just legit broke down because I had to, I had to let my jobs go because I was behind on school. I took four classes full time. I'm still on parole. I'm living in my on crib. I'm still living under restrictions, right?

Starting point is 01:25:47 There's a lot going on in my universe with family, right? So without me realizing it, I was fighting a lot of battles. I wasn't, I just kept ignoring. And I think that when I got into school, I tried to, I probably was too confident that I could take on four classes. and I'm going to do this because, but that was not the true. That was not the truth. And I think that the reality of like, yo, you overstep. You took on more than you can chew.

Starting point is 01:26:11 You got no financial backing. Then I went dead broke. I'm talking about like zero dollars in my account. I was on the threshold of going back into the streets. I'm talking about Ian. I'm a phone call away from like people that's really, you know, in the streets at the time. And once you start reversing back to thinking that like, because at one point, I'm like, I'm not going, I'm not ever hitting the streets. I was ready to go against all that.

Starting point is 01:26:32 I jumped falling. That's what made me feel like everything I thought I knew about myself, I don't. So that breakdown was a result of me not preparing myself the right way. But the good thing is that that day, I had a group of people to reach out to, right? And this is why in the work I do now, we say normalize asking for help when you come home from prison because none of us could do this alone. I don't care how successful you are. You still need a tribe in the community, right?

Starting point is 01:26:58 So I leaned on my people, and from there, I got help. I saw a counselor. I withdrew from the program, right? I said no to education, yes, to mental health. I like saying that because that's what I learned that day. And then, I don't know, man, me thinking about my next career move, a lot of people at the time was like, yo, you should work with the kids.

Starting point is 01:27:17 Like, you got an inspirational story. You know, because not many in the hug come home and go into a master's program. So that was kind of new for my time. And I was like, now you're right. And then I started to think about, okay, I want to do this community work. And I organized what we call now, it was called, You're Not Alone Brotherhood.

Starting point is 01:27:36 It was a male support group where I put some men together, an agenda, and I wanted to build a space where we could feel like we have a safe space to break bread and build with each other. And that is when my vision for the nonprofit kind of came about. And then it only was amplified

Starting point is 01:27:50 when I connected to the superintendent who expelled me when I was 15. He was the principal then. He's the superintendent now. I reconnected with him, sent him this long email, like, hey, I'm back in the town.

Starting point is 01:28:01 You may not remember me, but I gave him a brief history. He's like, yeah, come meet me. Had to sit down. He was, like, super supportive of the mission. Like, damn, he's very proud of me. And he's like, yo, what you doing next week? I'm like, yo, whatever you want. He's like, I'm going to take you to the same school I expelled you from.

Starting point is 01:28:17 I went back to Lincoln High School and I spoke to 40 seniors that day. First time I ever told my story. I didn't know what the fuck I was doing. I wrote it out and all that. And in the midst of my present ticket, I just crumbed it up. And I started talking naturally from the heart. And that day, the reaction from the administration, from him to students, I realized, yo, there's leaders like me missing in this community who did time, who got a message, who's educated. And that's when the vision for 9-14-Un409th started to grow.

Starting point is 01:28:45 We got organized officially incorporated in 2020, April. COVID hit. We built off of COVID by doing COVID-relief effort work. And then there just was a snowball effect, right? A lot of opportunities came along the way. I started with me and my co-founder. He's the best friend of mine for 30 years. Shout out to John.

Starting point is 01:29:05 And then now five and a half years later, we have a headquarters in Yonkers. We have a staff of 12. My team collectively has over 100 years in prison, state and federal time. Some members on my team have former gang leadership experiences from different gangs. Some of us have our masters and bachelors. So we represent this diverse group of like street, lived experience, that expertise, that professional educational background. And we've been building. So now we work with corrections, right? You know, that's how, you know, we started building on what I started in 2020 when I got the contract in

Starting point is 01:29:40 corrections. Now we've run programs and corrections. And then ironically, we are also hosting programs in Lincoln High School, one of the schools that I started at my speech at. So things that started in 2020 starts to come to fruition in the last couple years. When you see individuals from those diverse, like, gang street backgrounds come together, what? What does that tell you? You mean in my team? Yeah, on your team. When you see that that's possible.

Starting point is 01:30:06 That it takes one person to have a vision. And that's me in that case, right? Like, you know, I didn't know I was going to get different gang members on my team, right? I just knew that I wanted a movement that represented the positive version of forming incarcerated men and women, right? People who've been through the struggle that got stories that's like not, you know, they did real time. and I was blessed to have great leaders to be attracted to the vision and support the vision to help me build the movement right in the last five and a half years so that when I look around the room I'm like damn used to be blood he was the Nthario he was Crip he was Lankin

Starting point is 01:30:41 king like even on my team some of us are from different parts of Yonkers that historically don't have a relationship so what it shows me is that like it's really about the vision of building unity right and that's what true community really needs because when it's there people attract to When you see someone that's young that's, you know, in street life or involved or had an upbringing like you, what piece of advice would you give to them if you had the opportunity to sit across from them? Yeah, I actually answered this question on a recent interview. So for me is, I would tell them, look at life like you versus you, right? Like you have to approach life that is you versus you every day, right? It's a marathon.

Starting point is 01:31:25 It's not a race, right? You know, you're not competing with anybody else. You're really competing with yourself. And when you think about life that way, what happens is you look at yourself and say, how can I be better, right? If I had that mindset when I was 15, 16, 17, I would have went to a whole other direction. But in the world we live in, we live in competition. We got to show up to look good for who, people that we fear judgment by, the girls, the guys.

Starting point is 01:31:53 So without realizing that we're not competing with ourselves, we're competing with society and I think that that has fractured right the or not even fractured what happens is a lot of people see validation so I'm saying take that away bro forget other people's validation validate yourself by competing with yourself every day is you versus you Jonathan I appreciate you coming on the show today man yeah no thank you Ian it was a great build I appreciate the ambiance and the conversation yeah of course man you did great yeah you went from not being a good speaker years ago to now you're an excellent one yeah building man I'm building man

Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was a Yonkers Gang Member — Then I Survived New York’s Maximum-Security Prisons | Jonathan Alvarez

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