Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was Addicted to Robbing Banks — Then Got 18 Years in New York State Prison | Tommy "Big Fatts" Sanders

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Tommy "Big Fatts" Sanders grew up in Niagara Falls New York — and by the time he was 6 years old his mother had been killed. His father was in prison. What followed was a childhood spent in group homes juvie and living with prostitutes — and an education in the streets that taught him how to rob stores and banks before most kids had their driver's license. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, Tommy tells the complete story — the childhood that shaped everything the addiction to robbing that took over his early 20s the bank and store spree that sent him on the run and the 18.5 year New York State Prison sentence that finally stopped him. He opens up about what surviving New York State Prison really looked like and what it finally took to turn his life completely around. _____________________________________________ #bankrobbery #prison #truecrimecommunity _____________________________________________ Connect with Tommy "Big Fatts" Sanders: Book: https://www.amazon.com/My-Pen-Pushes-T-Sanders-ebook/dp/B07J181DBW _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Niagara Falls Bank Robber Who Refused to Snitch — Full Story 01:32 Growing Up in Niagara Falls and the Environment That Shaped Everything 03:44 Losing His Mother and the Early Trauma That Changed the Direction of His Life 05:51 His Father's Prison Story and the Family Dynamics That Defined His Childhood 07:39 His First Steps Into Crime and What That World Really Looked Like 09:39 Life on the Streets and the Early Robberies That Started the Escalation 12:12 School Years and His Attempts to Join the Army That Could Have Changed Everything 14:29 The Cycle of the Streets and the Family Influence That Kept Pulling Him Back 17:36 Living in Group Homes and the Environment That Surrounded Him 20:07 The Transition to Robberies and What Really Motivated Those Decisions 23:13 The Robbery Spree and the Failed Attempts at a Normal Life That Followed 27:04 The Bank Robbery Details and What Life on the Run Really Looked Like 31:11 Life as a Fugitive and the Criminal Addiction That Kept Him Going 34:20 His Capture the Charges and Why He Refused to Snitch 37:37 His Prison Sentence and the Transfers Between Facilities 42:58 Adapting to Prison Life and What Surviving the Violence Really Required 48:18 Navigating Gangs and Prison Relationships From the Inside 53:32 Maintaining Family Bonds From Inside Prison and What That Required 56:41 His Personal Growth in Prison and What Writing a Book Really Meant 01:00:18 His Release From Prison and the Reentry Challenges That Followed 01:03:08 Rebuilding Family Connections After Prison and What That Process Required 01:05:49 The Addiction of Robbery and the Mental Challenges That Come With It 01:09:02 Facing Temptation and What Choosing a New Life Actually Required 01:13:02 His Reflections His Regrets and the Message He Wants Every Young Person to Hear 01:14:13 His Current Life — Music Writing and Community Work 01:16:00 The SNUG Program and What Giving Back to the Community Really Looks Like 01:18:09 His Final Thoughts and Closing Message _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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before he was old enough to vote and went on a robbery spree in his early 20s. He ended up going on the run and got sentenced to 18 and a half years in New York State Prison. He describes robbing as an addiction. His name is Tommy Big Fat Sanders, and this is his story.

Where'd you grow up? In Niagara Falls, I'm from Niagara Falls. It's near Canada, but it's not Canada. Not Canada, you got Canada side, and you got Niagara Falls side. We call it dirty water. Okay. I'm from the dirty waters in Niagara Falls. I've always wanted to go to Niagara Falls.

You can come there. It's good. Is the dirty water side you're on the nice side? No, that's the dirty side. That's why we call it dirty waters. Because we're on a dirty side. Canada called himself the clean side. Okay.

But we're on the dirty side. Tell everyone how you got the name Big Fats. You were telling me off camera about it. It was a childhood nickname, so I want to start with there. When I was born, my mother's best friend, she named me Fats because I was fat when I was a child. And when her daughter was born, my mother named her daughter Fats. So that's how I got the nickname Fats. And now you're nowhere near fat.

Now I'm nowhere near fat. Did you lose all that weight in prison? No, no, no. It's a funny story. My grandmother had seen L.L. Koojee when I was young. And she was like, come here, baby. I want you to look like him. I want your body to look just like this young man right here.

And she was talking about L.L. Cool J at the time. So when my uncle came, my Uncle Rod came home from prison, his body was looked just like LLs. So my Uncle Rob brought me a, he brought me two dumbbell, 10-pound weight dumbbells, a rope, and he had me jogging. And so I started slimming it down. And my arms was the only debilms. My arms was the biggest thing on me because I would just keep curling more than anything. And so now my body started developing until the LL shape.

So I wanted my body to look just like LLs because he was the only one during that time. The body looked. I've never seen on it. I think he was 16 to 17 when he came out. So when LL came out, when he came out, I'm bad. And when he zipped down his jacket with the troop outfit on, I was like, yeah, I want my body to look like his. I don't want to be fat no more. What was your upbringing like, your childhood?

My upbringing was kind of rough. It was shiffy. My mother died. And as far as I can remember, my mother was murdered. I was six years old. My mom, she was a drug dealer. She sold drugs. And my father, he was locked up during that time.

So she was a single mother raising me. And she had, you know, my mother had to do what she had to do. But her last night seeing me, she told me, I love you. I'll be back to get you in the morning. We'll go out somewhere. And that next morning, there was so many people in my house that I didn't even know why they was in there. They was crying. My grandmother told me, your mother was found murder in the bandit building.

And as a kid at six years old, I'm not really knowing what that meant. Because when I went to the funeral, I was thinking, my mother's just sleeping. But she'll wake up. She'll see me later. That's how I thought. And the reason why I thought that, because you know when you're watching the movies, you watch the TV and you're seeing people getting killed in movies,

but then when you see another movie, they're still there in that movie. So that's how I thought. I'm thinking, oh, my mom, she'll wake up. I see people get killed every day on TV. and then they're on the next movie. So as six years old, it's how I was thinking. I was thinking that she was going to come back. But no.

When did it hit you that she wasn't coming back? When we started living with my grandmother, and then I realized that she wasn't coming through the door like she used to, that's when it hit me like, okay, my mother's definitely gone because the young kids is saying, that's why your mother dead. that's why your mother did.

And I would get into fights behind that. You know what I'm saying? Because I just really, as a kid, she was my backbone. My mother was my best friend. So when she got murdered, it just kind of like did a lot to me. It damaged me a little bit. Why was your dad in prison? My father went to prison because the police shot his brother in the neck,

and he was about to shoot him again. And my father ended up stabbing the police to save his brother. So my father had to do, he did 13 years in prison. And he came home in 1988. I was 13 when he came home. Was your dad involved in that lifestyle or he just happened to be there? He was selling drugs too, but my father, they was just out at a club. They was in Buffalo during that time.

I'm from Niagara Falls, but my dad and my uncle, they was out in Buffalo at a bar. And something happened. I don't know what happened, but my uncle got into it with the police officer. And next thing you know, I guess they start tumbling, fighting, and the police ended up shooting my uncle in the neck. And my father saw that, and he reacted. That's his brother. So he starts stabbing the police up. So, and he turned himself in the next day, told him, I'm the one, you know, my father's like, I'm the one who did it.

You can send me to prison. Man tried to kill my brother. I wasn't going for that. So I'm here, turn myself in. At the time your mom passed, did you know she was a drug dealer? Yeah, because I used to go with her on Greyhound buses and stuff. I knew what my mother was doing. It was just me and her and the house, so I knew the things that my mom's was doing.

What did you think about that as a kid? That was my partner. That was my mother. I didn't care because it was just us, too. It was just me and my mother. I have an older sister, too, through my mother, but we got different fathers. My older sister wasn't living with us during that time. She was living with her father during that time.

But, yeah, my mother was doing what she had to do. When she passed, did you want to follow in her footsteps? No. I was in another lane. I was doing, as I got older, I started doing robberies. So I was doing bank robberies, and that's where I went to prison. How did you get into robberies? With the older guys.

You know what I'm saying? Older guys was doing. doing bank robberies. I was just a lookout kid. They're not coming. I don't see the police. You know what I'm saying? I was just one of them. I was just the lookout kid looking at the door, just making sure the police ain't coming. And it started from there. Once I saw older guys robbing banks and just getting away with it. Because back then, back then, when you walk in the bank, the money, you could see the money. The all of all, everything was, the cabinets was open. So you can walk in. the money is all right there. So all they had to do is hop over the counter, get the money,

and leave. It was really easy back then. Because this was, I was born in 75. So the 80s, early 80s, it was totally, totally different. It wasn't a lot of cameras during that time. You know what I mean? So it was different. I hung with the older crowd. How would they actually do the robbery? Are they using face masks? They go in. They got guns on them. Nobody's getting hurt. They just getting the money and then getting out. And how much would a typical robbery bring in money was?

Well, back then, I didn't know as a kid back then. I just knew that they was getting a lot of that money out of that bank. And what would you get for being the lookout? Me, because, you know, a kid, we getting penny candy money. So, you know, I was getting about maybe $10, $20. That's it. Because I'm a kid. I didn't know the value of money during that time.

It was young. Cheap labor. I just know I wanted some money to get some penny candy so I can go and share it with my friends. Wow. You know what I mean? And then from there, I'm from East Side. I'm from 321, 12th Street. I'm from 12th Street on the East Side.

Eastside is the most dangerous spot to be in. It's dangerous over there. So it's like you come over. over there and something might happen to you. You know, you might not live on that side and something might happen to you gotta know somebody who, you know what I'm saying? During that time, you just couldn't just come to 12th Street.

You just couldn't come to the east side. And back then, you used to, you couldn't go to the west side. East side and west side, we really didn't get along with each other, but I have family members over there as well on the west side. So I was always going over there, you know what I'm saying? I was always going over there, even though it was a little bit, people ain't really like that. I got into fights when I was going over there. I got people shot at me.

I had to run through the projects just to go hide in the shed somewhere until, at least for like 30 minutes to an hour. Because it was that real during that time. So, I mean, young kid coming, you know, you got people coming through trying to shoot you down with Uzi. This is real, real talk. This is not no, what I'm saying to you is real. You know, so one day I was over there and Jordan Guarans, and I was talking to my cousins, the mother and my cousin and child, children. And I had end up knocking the kid.

I punched a kid in the face. Punch the kid in the face. And for retaliation, they came back to try to shoot me down. In retaliation, I'm young. You know what I didn't know they was going to do that. I was just fighting for my life because I ended up punching a kid in the face. And I wasn't from over there on the west side. And I just stayed there.

I ain't even going to where. I just stayed there. Right after I did, I'm just talking to the mother. I'm talking to my cousin's baby mother at the time. And the next thing I know, a white car coming around, rolling down the window. and as you could see the muscle or the muscle or the gun, you just knew. I pushed her out the way and I start running.

And she was like, run, fats, run. And they was, I got away. I'm zigzagging through the projects, made it through. Got to Unity Park, hitting somebody shed, about maybe 30 minutes to an hour later. A young kid that I knew, I didn't even know he knew I was in the shed, but he came out, was like, Fats. It's clear.

You can leave now. I'm like, man, he knew I was in his shed this whole time. But he, you know, he let me know, and I got home safely. So I made it out. If you wear prescription glasses, you know the struggle. When you need sunglasses, you can't just walk into a store and grab a pair off the shelf. You need prescription lenses. And that usually means making an appointment, spending a ton of money, and waiting weeks.

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Please play responsibly. For that. What do you think that did to you as a kid? Did you enjoy that adrenaline rush or did you want for a better life? Or? No, I wanted, that showed me something different. It showed me that I have to be on point. I just can't just be having people doing that to me and bullying me like I was.

And so I had to change something about that. So once I changed that, now I was the guy who was coming through doing what they were showing me to do. How were you in school? Were you going to school? Yeah, I went to school. I went to school. I went to Niagara Falls High School.

I ended up graduating from 95, I mean from Niagara Falls High School in 1995. That was like the best thing to me. I graduated because I was in, I went through, I got kicked out of school. Got kicked out of high school. I was just bad, man. I was fighting a lot, getting kicked out of school. They put me in an alternate school. So once they put me in an alternate school, had to do like a year.

in the alternate school, then I had to go to the board of education in order to get back in high school. So now I got back to high school. I graduated in 1995, and that was like the best thing for me, man. When I graduated, I was just happy because I ain't had to go to school no more. What was your plan for the future at that point? Well, I tried to get in the Army. I went to go take a test for the Army. You know you got to get 31. I kept getting 30. So on the second try when I went for the Army and I did the test, it was 30 again. I was like, man, forget about it. I'm not. It's a rap. I'm not. Why the Army? Because it's like I wanted to fight for my country. I thought at that time going to the Army was the thing to be. You're going over there, you're fighting for

your country. But then after I didn't pass, I realized why I'm going to the Army to fight for my country when we can't even fight for our own country right here where we see. This is our backyard. And we're going to, if we fighting, if I can't fight in my own yard, then why I'm going over there fighting? It don't make sense. I can't even protect nobody here, but you want me to go over here and fight for a country? I don't know nothing about.

So do you think that if you got permitted to go into the Army, your life would have turned out differently? I think my life would have been different. I think it would have been different. because I was really, really trying to go to the Army. I was really, really trying to go to the Army. Even though you got that taste of the streets already, you wanted out? Yeah, I wanted it out. I wanted something different.

I wanted because somebody had to break the cycle. That circle, it's like my uncles, my aunts, they was in prison. My dad, he was in prison. Now here, here come me. I wanted to break the cycle, but I never broke the cycle. I end up going to prison. So right now, I'm learning how to break the cycle and not go back to prison, if that makes sense. What do you do when you get, you know, stuck in an environment like that?

How do you, as a young kid, how do you even overcome that? It seems like an uphill battle. It was. It was like a teeter. It was like, one man, I'm in the bad field. Then the next man, I'm in the good field. And it's like, I'm in the bad field. And I stayed in the bad field.

I never really got chance to go back to the good field. because the bad field was teaching me more better stuff over here in the bad field than the good field. So I took the bad field and I started liking the bad field. So I stayed in that dark field. You know what I'm saying? I stayed in it. And then I lived it. And then I did time for it.

So what happens? You don't go into the Army? Where do you go? To the streets. I took it to the street. I started selling drugs a little bit, but I didn't really know what I was, and I'm keeping it real.

I really didn't know what I was doing. I was selling drugs for a minute. Then my dad caught me selling drugs. He caught me selling drugs. And then I got, you know, I got home. It was on the popping. My father beat my ass. And he's out of prison at this point.

Yeah. What was your relationship like with him once he got out? It was cool at first. But the delivering arrangements was different. See, on the east side, I was coming in the house and I was doing what I wanted to do. I'm watching hookers. I'm outside.

I'm with the hookers. I'm making sure that nothing happens to them. My job, because I was living with them during that time, I was 13. I was living with hookers during that time. I was a runaway kid from home. So I was selling drugs. And so while I was selling drugs, I ran away from home because I got tired of my dad beating me and stuff like that.

So I ran away from home, started living with hookers at 13, and I was selling drugs. And then there's one particular day my dad just seen me selling it. And he had beat my, like, it wasn't a regular whipping, man. You know what I'm saying? It wasn't one of those regular whoopens. It was one of those whoopings where you get home, you get wet, you get wet, your body get wet, you strip naked, your body got to stay wet, big leather, big belt, and he put my head between his legs. Now, once he do that, you can't escape. It's like your head is locked

between his legs. You can't escape you naked, and he's just beating the shit out of you. You know what I'm saying? Then I woke up in a puddle with my piss. So when you, when you, as a kid, when you going through stuff like that, those weapons was totally, totally, totally, totally different. I mean, if you getting picked up by your ankle, naked, getting your ass beat like a piñata, like, that's, that's like, to me, nah. Why do you think he did that to you, looking back on it now? Because I think that was the way he cope with things. That was happening to him when he was young, him and his brothers. So my dad was just strict on certain things.

He didn't like nobody lying to him. You go crazy if you lied to him. You know, like that. So it was, I was young. I wanted to be outside because on the east side, I'm outside. But when I was living with my dad, it was like, no, you got to be in the house. You can go outside, but you got to be in at a certain time. That certain time wasn't fixing with me because I'm usually coming in late.

So when he's telling me to come in at a certain time, 8 o'clock, 7 o'clock, I'm like 7 o'clock, I ain't used to that. I would sneak outside because I'm not used to. coming in a house at no 7 o'clock. I don't know nothing about no 7 o'clock. Coming in the house at 7 o'clock. Do you think he wanted a better life for you than what he had? He did. He did. But I was in the streets.

I was already in the streets. And plus, when he started beating me like that, I ain't want to be around. So at the age of 15, my father ended up sending me to a group home. We went to court. They end up sending me to East Ferry in Buffalo. And then from Buffalo, I went to Orchard House. I think, what happened?

I went to the Orchard House first, then East Ferry. And then from East Ferry, I went to Lincoln Hall. And I came home 1992. I came home June 20 of 1992 from Lincoln Hall. What is that, like a juvenile detention? It's a juvenile detention. What did you go there for? Because I was running away from home.

Once you, and I ran away from East Ferry. So once you, once East Ferry feel like they can't keep you because you awalling, then they see you go somewhere further. That way you can't AWOL. So they end up sending me to Lincoln Hall. That's in New York. You know what I'm saying? Lincoln Hall, New York, Lincoln Dell.

So it's in New York, yeah. You mentioned living with hookers. What was that like? It was better than living with my. dad at that time. It was way, way better because they, they teach you, um, they teach you how to respect women. They teach you how to protect women and, you don't, and not to snitch. And so I learned that at an early age. Whatever going, whatever they doing, whatever's going on in this house stays in this house. You don't go running your mouth to nobody. So my job was to protect the

women, write down license plate numbers. If they don't come back within the hour, I post a call the police and let them know this is the person they went with with the license plate number. You know, that was my job. And I'll get $5 every time I do that. Would you ever have to do that? Hmm. Would people go missing? Would you do that? Yeah, but I never had to. Oh, so they didn't go missing? They didn't go miss it. So you made no money or now? I made money. I had to wait for them to come back. Oh, so they paid you guaranteed. Yeah, they paid me. Okay. Because we all are together. So it's like, they'll come to the same spot. I'm sitting there waiting for them at.

You know what I mean? So they make sure they come to that same spot where I'm at waiting for them to come back. I get paid. I get $5 every time they go. That's a reoccurring thing for you. You're always a lookout. Yeah, I'm always the lookout. I didn't understand it then.

As a kid, you ain't understanding that. All you know is you got to protect these women. I used to go to the houses where they go. I used to stay in the hallway. I used to just make sure that they are right. That was my job. So where do you go after that? After, you know, you can't get into the Army, you know, you got that whipping from your dad, you're on the streets.

What are you getting into? Living with different people, I was living with different family members. Like, they wasn't even my family, but they treated me like that. So I was living with different people, staying with different people. I wasn't really washing up. I had bad hygiene. I wasn't really washing up the way I was supposed to be, the way I should have been because I'm so, I'm out.

I'm trying to hide from my dad. I'm going over here. I'm sticking over here. I'm sleeping over here. And I'm trying to hide from him. Then I go to school. Then I don't go to school. So I'm trying to hide and stay free away from my dad

so I won't have to be in the house or get a whipping. So I just was different. And what were you doing for money at that point? Still trying to hustle. Didn't know what I was doing. You know what I mean? But I was still trying to hustle. And then I ended up quitting the hustle and got into the robberies.

Now, the robberies was a little bit different than the hustle. And what do you mean by that? I was able to go in and get out with the money as quick as possible. I was getting more money robbing than I was selling. drugs because I really didn't even know what I was doing. I couldn't even tell you what a 35 piece look like. A 35 piece might look. It might be a big one, right? But I'm thinking it's 35, but it's not. It's more than the 35. So I was selling for 35. I'm cheating myself. I'm not knowing that that piece is a, is a buck pack that I'm giving away. I'm giving away a buck pack,

a big piece, but I'm selling it for $35. I didn't know what I was doing, man. Do you remember your first robbery? Yeah, my first robbery was the gas station. That was my first robbery. I robbed the gas station, got away. Then I'm like, damn, that was kind of easy. Maybe I can rob something else.

So I robbed another gas station. That was easy. So I'm like, man. well, if this easy, I can rob everything then. So I just start robbing stuff. So you have, and this is another reason why I start robbing stuff, man. I don't keep it real. Because I had a son, he was, he was, he was, I live right around the corner from McDonald's.

Long story short. I live right around the corner from McDonald's. It says hiring. So now when I go to sign an application for it, The lady told me, we can't hire you. I said, why? I said, I have a baby coming. I live right around the corner.

I could come here all day long. Well, we can't hire you because, you know, the way you dress. I said, how, what you mean? Well, you got all this jewelry on. You got nice clothes on. Why would you want to work here? I said, because I have a son. I don't want to be out on the street.

So when I didn't get that job, I just went haywire. I just start robbing everything now. Because it's like, I come. I'm knocking and you not letting me in. I'm telling you that I need a job. You not letting me in? Okay. So now that you're not letting me in,

you're not taking me serious. Now I'll go robbing stuff. Because now maybe you'll take me serious. So I wouldn't start robbing stuff. Like I'll start robbing Rite Aid pharmaceuticals. I robbed them. The movie theater, Regal. All the seven and all the seven-elev's that used to be Wilson Farms back in the day,

I robbed all the Wilson Farms. I just started robbing Bird King. Just start robbership. Wendy's. Anything that had money coming in, I was taking it. The banks. Robbing the banks. I dressed up as a woman.

Whig. Purs. Robbed a bank. This episode is brought to you by Accenture. When your advertising operations fall out of sync, everything else follows. Spotify and Accenture are working together to reinvent the rhythm of ad sales using automation, analytics, and

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I am one of Motenui. On July 10th. Maui, you will board my boat and restore the heart of Tafiti. And here we go. The journey of you. begins. See her light up the night.

The ocean chose you. Let's go save the world. I got your back, chosen one. Disney's Moana. Boots Nick. His name is Hayehame. His name is Yum Yum. When he goes in my tum-tum.

In theaters July 10th. You know what I mean? I had to get it, man. What was your MO? Are you going in a different disguise every time like you just mentioned? Are you using a weapon? What's your getaway car? Well, for the for the last.

bank robbery I robbed, I decided to dress up as a woman. You know what I mean? I had the wig on. I had the fake boobs. I had the sunflower dress on. I had the legs were showing. It's real, real talk, man. You know what I saying?

And I went in there being Michelle. I'm what I'm saying? My character was Michelle. And I just wanted the money. I ain't want to hurt nobody because the banks is insured. So you figured you'd take a few dollars. they'd get that back. It's insured.

So they'd get it back. You won't miss it. So my whole, it wasn't, my whole thing was like, it was like drugs without taking drugs. That was my high. That was the thrill. So the more I kept feeding, feeding myself with the robberies, the more everything you start coming in, you know what I'm saying? It's just start coming faster and faster and faster.

So I just decided one day, I'm going to dress up like a woman. I'm going here at 9 o'clock. I'm going to get the, money and I'm going to get out. That's what I did. What's your logic behind being a woman? It was just a different disguise because the fact that if I came in there like a woman, they wouldn't realize who I am. So I had to change up my appearance. I had to cut my face. I had to get all the hairs off. You know, yeah, I buried it. So I robbed it. You know what I mean? Are you wearing heels? No, I had Reebok sneakers on. Do you think you

but it passed as a woman? At that moment, I did. Because they really just thought I was a woman. Because the way I had the wig, I had the purse, I had the dress. And then I asked the lady, I just told her I wanted to cast a check. I gave her, I gave her my name. I told her I wanted to do, I wanted to cast a check, a large check. She told me to hold on for a second.

Once she had got cleared, she asked me to come over. and I just went up there and I just was like, hi, my name is Michelle. But I was talking like a woman, you know what I'm saying? Hi, my name is Michelle. I'm here to cash the lives check. And I pulled out a gun instead. I could talk about this because I did the time for it.

So I put out a gun out the purse and got the money. I asked her to sit back, put both hands up here, and just put the money with one hand. So that way you ain't pressing no buttons. You know what I mean? So I ended up getting the money. But as I was going out the door, the wind, the compression from the door, it pushed the wig back.

So it caught the side of my face. And so that's how they knew it was me with the help of snitches on the street who really didn't like me. So they end up calling in, oh, I know that that's Fats. That's Fats. That's Tommy. That's Fats. Oh, he live over here.

His boys live over here. They work there. So a lot of people was telling. A lot of people that was smiling in my face, laughing in my face, giving me hint, those people was telling. You know what I mean? So I end up going on the run. I went on the run for like almost two years. They had an SOS on my head, shoot on site.

So yeah, I was living in the society where I didn't care no more. Once I had the SOS on my head from the police. Nothing mattered to me like that no more. How much money did you get from the bank? I never told. Now, do you have that amount written on the check or is a check? No, it wasn't. It was never a check.

It was just a gun. And now are you watching other people in the bank, the other tellers? No, it was because the one lady was on the phone. And the one security guard, I had moved the, it's a tree branch. So I moved the tree branched over prior to that. But I had already did that a couple of days prior to the robbery. I moved it over so the security guard wouldn't see what I'm doing. So now when I come in, I know when he get ready to sit down

and he's not going to be able to see me because I already moved the tree without them knowing I moved it. Now when you walk away from the teller, is she screaming? No. When I had got the money, she just was saying, are you going to hurt me? You're not going to hurt. I'll say, I'm not here to hurt. you. I'm not even here for you. I'm just here for the money. I said, you know what I mean?

And so I got the money. When I got the money, I told her, don't say nothing. Another lady that worked there saw me. And she went to go and make the call. So what you know, once they make that first call, they can hang up. The police station got to call them back. And then they'd send 911 to wherever they need them to come. And so, but I was already gone by that time. Why do they have to call back? Because they really got to make sure of the bank really being robbed. Why someone would fake call in?

Because some people could do that. Back in the day? Yeah, some people could do it. But, but that's how the system was during that time. It might have changed now, though. What year was this? 2001. Okay.

And how are security cameras back then? I didn't care about the security cameras. Were there a lot? It was something in there, but I didn't care about them because I was covered up. The first bank I robbed, I just went and hopped over the counter. I just walked, because it wasn't really nobody in there. It was like 9, 15, I think. And I walked past the bank.

I'm like, oh, shit. And I walked back. I looked in. I was like, oh, I'll be back. You know, I was just real talk. I'll be right back. So I came back. You know, I hopped over the counter.

It was only, during that time, it was one. lady in there and I was bending down and she turned around and she saw me and then I was like I'm just here for the money I'm not here for nothing else you know what's interesting is that like check cashing places are more secure than some banks you know like that they don't union yeah or they don't have like the the walls the bulletproof glass like it's not enclosed you could just easily hop over you know yeah while I hopped over yeah you would think there would be a little bit better security or something not not well Niagara Falls you know know, it's different in Niagara Falls.

They had that up now, though. They had those, you can't just, you can't do that now. You know what I mean? They got the windows up now. So it's going to be hard to rob a bank now. Plus, they have the doors that automatically close on you. You ain't getting out of there. Now, what happens to your kid when you go on the run?

Because I had two kids at that time. I had a girl and boy at that time. And they were six and three at that time. And one day my son was on, I call him from out of town. I was out of town. I was out of town to check on my son and my daughter and my son. Naekwine got on the phone and was like, Dad, I want you to come back home because I don't want the police to kill my daddy. And I was like, ah, dang, why he say that?

You know what I'm saying? And this is coming from my son. He was six at the time. And my homeboy had got locked up, and they told him. They said, yo, we'll let you out only if you can get your homeboy back to Niagara Falls to turn himself in. So on the plight of that, I turned myself in to get him out. You know what I mean? Because I didn't want him being locked up for me, you know what I'm saying?

Because I'm the one who made these choices to rob banks. to rob convenience stores, I made the choices, not him. So I felt like, okay, I turned myself in. I left that same day. The same day I talked to my son, that's the same day he got locked up. And they won't let him out unless I turned myself in. So when I turned myself in with a lawyer, because I had to, because they were to still shot, I still had the SOS on me.

So I turned myself in with my lawyer. I snuck back in town, turned myself in. and history made. How long were these robberies going on for? How long was your run? It was a long time. I've been doing robbery since I was 13 all the way until I was 27.

Did they connect all of them to you? Because it wasn't like an everyday thing. It was like I do them, I space them out, space them out. So they wasn't knowing it was me. They had no clue. I don't think a lot of people knew it was me during that time.

So they were just looking at you for the bank? During that time, yeah. Now, what about your dad? Does he find out you're wanted for the bank? Yeah. Yeah, my dad, I ain't going to hold you. My dad, he passed away now, but he held me down. My dad held me down.

He wouldn't let nobody know nothing where I was at. The police was coming to his house. He still wouldn't letting them know nothing about me, where I was at, nothing. He kept it a hundred. My dad made sure that. Police didn't know nothing about my whereabouts. You know what I mean? So I appreciate my dad on that.

I appreciate my dad on that. Why didn't the feds pick it up? They did. It's just that the feds picked it up, but being the fact that I wouldn't tell, they supersede my own case to the state, and the state gave me more time. Just like the fed said,

the feds is trying to offer me five years of our toll. But I'm looking at it like, yeah, I don't even, Don't know feds or police or marshals respect you if you tell it. Because if you tell on anybody, you'll tell on them. So they don't respect that. They really don't. Who would you tell on, though?

Nobody. Oh, they wanted me to tell on some people I knew, some heavy hitters, some people that I knew. It was some things going on, murders going on. And these same people I was hanging around with at the time. So unrelated to your crimes? Yeah, it was unrelated to my crimes. Okay. I mean, they were followers.

We in Daytona. They taking pictures of us in Daytona. Like, who, you know, we all the way out in Florida. So you would have had even less respect for telling on someone that wasn't even a part of your case. Yeah. You know, first of all, I got children. And I'm not about to be telling on nobody when I got children. You're not about to be coming from mine when I'm locked up.

And I don't even move like that. You know, I'm not going to tell on nobody because I'm the one who committed the crimes. I'm not bringing nobody else down. for my wrong. So what ends up happening? So the feds supersede my case to the state. The state gave, they hit me with seven and a half for one bank, seven and a half for another bank, and three and a half for right-a-pharmaceutical.

So they gave me all-known and unknown. They hit me with all-known and unknown, so I won't be charged with nothing else once I get out of prison. Because, you know, sometimes they got people who would do 12 years of prison. But as soon as they get out, the police right there to arrest them for another crime. They didn't do that with me. I was happy. They gave me all known and unknown. So I was very happy about that because they could have gave me 100 years for the crimes that I was committing.

They could have gave me 100. But being in fact, this was my first bid, they ended up giving me 18 and a half years. Now, was this a plea deal or did you go to trial and lose? No, no, it was a, the plea deal, it was. It was the offer on the table was supposed to be two to six. But being the fact that I was ignorant to the law, I didn't know it to. I thought two to six was like 26 years. So I went on the run when I heard one.

I heard the lawyer say, oh, they're going to, you know, it's your first bid. It's the first one. They could give you, you know, two to four, two to six. But I don't know those numbers. I was ignorant. Ignorant is bliss, man. I ain't know those numbers. I'm like, damn, how can be three?

doing 24 to 26 years, but I'm not, I'm not, nah, I'm about to go on the run because I'm 27 at this time, I'm like, man, I just turned 27. I'm not about to go and do all in the years like that. Now, that's what I'm thinking in my head, but in my, but in real reality, it was two to four. So I could have did maybe three or four out of that two to four. But being the fact that I went on the run, that's what killed, that's what killed my dreams. It was, so now they ain't giving me 18 and a half years behind that. So they let you go out on bail even after you were on the run the first time? Yeah, I made bail.

Once I made bail, I went on the run. Because I had, I went, they arrested me for something else. They lied. And this is before I went on the run. Okay. They lie and was like, oh, we, we got to bring you down to the station because we heard that you didn't have, you know, license. and I'm like license. What's you talking about?

You know, I was about to do another robbery. I was coming from the movie theater. I was about to do another robbery. It was me and two other people. My home boy and his girl. I asked the girl to go in the store to look and see what's in there. The cameras where the cameras at. She was taking too long.

She called the police on me. So now when I'm sitting in the car where, where her man with my homeboy, as I'm sitting in the car, I'm like, damn, it was taking her so long. She should have already been out. So now I see all these polices. They come in in unison. They come in all the way around the corner and they make it to us.

And then that's when everything just got crazy. Now here she come, coming out the store when they pull up. So I knew right there the gig was up. So my bail was five grand. I had ended up telling them myself. I signed statements on myself. I gave them, I told them, if y'all let both of them go, I'll sign statements on myself. If you let both of them go.

Oh, you would do that? Yeah. So they let both of them go. I signed statements told them I did the banks. I did the Rite Aid pharmaceuticals. I did all of Wilson Farms that 7-Elevens today. And I told them I did the blockbuster and, you know, and so, you know, once I gave up all those robberies that I did that I committed um they let them go and i stayed there and then um my bill was like five grand my home boy

put up the bell money and once he put up the bell money i i um robbed that was i robbed the bank again the same right when i got out of jail i went and robbed the bank again because i needed some money i was it was the thrill i couldn't stop stop. Only thing that was going to stop me was prison or death. That's it. And that's when you went on the run. When I went on my second bank robbery, I went on the run. So that bail was provoked. And I went on the run. That's when they gave me the SOS, shoot on site. So wherever they see me, even if I ain't have a gun, they was going to shoot me down and kill me. Gotcha. So 18 and a half your sentence, where do they send you?

My first goal, I had went to, you know, you got to go to Wendy first for the layover. You go to Wendy, you stay there for about a week until, and then I went to Auburn. You stayed there for five days in the dungeon. And then from there, they took us to El Miro. So I went to El Miro. I got the El Miro, 2003. What was your experience like there? In reception,

My thing was when I went, we went to, I was hungry. We all was hungry because, you know, when you get off the bus, you ain't got no money, no food, no commissary, you know, nothing. Nothing is in your books during that time. So when we went to, when we went to Chow in the morning chow, we got pancakes, eggs, and you know, during that time, 2003, I'm coming in, I ain't had nothing. I'm sitting there eating. And as we sitting there eating, the CO, like, all right, y'all, y'all. Everybody get up. Everybody get up.

It's time to go. And I see people getting up. I'm like, yo, yo, yo. Yo. And this is me. I'm not knowing nothing in prison at all. This is me just coming in. And I'm like, no, no, no, yo.

So you'll see, oh, we just, we just sat down. We hungry. And he was like, I don't care. Get up. I'm like, no, no, no. Yo, everybody sit down. everybody sit down sit back down eat y'all food

and so everybody set back down because we all came together so everybody set back down ate they food I mean cleared it I said we're not getting up until we done you know what I'm saying and that's that

so CEOs end up moving everybody out the mess hall this is in El Miro this true story this is 2003 this is just no lie they end up moving everybody out the mess all

when we got done they was like all right y'all done yeah we done we walked out, everybody started screaming, yeah, shaking their lockers. They was happy because they ain't seen nothing like that in a while, you know what saying? So when I get back to the cell, everybody's screaming, yeah, clapping, shaking it. When I get back, they was like, Mrs. Sanders, we're going to have to sing you next.

You're going to have to pack up because we can't have that over here in reception. So we're going to sing you over there, the population, general population. I'm like, all right, cool. I mean, I ain't care because my whole thing, I'm doing prison time. I ain't going home no time soon. And I don't even know if I'm going to make it to see 2018. So I didn't care, man. I was hungry.

I wasn't leaving out the mess on until I finished the food. So we all, and that's what made it a little better because we all stood together and we ate our food. So is population worse than reception? Population is way worse than reception. way, way totally worse. I end up going to C block. C block is a dangerous block in Elmira. That's the kitchen.

You work, that's the kitchen facility over there in C block. But C block is the most dangerous block that I've been on in Elmira because you're seeing things, you're hearing things, you're seeing people getting cut, you hear people getting raped upstairs, on the tear at night when the lights is cut off, you know, people who did, you know, it was people who raped little kids and raped women and they, when they was coming in, man, they was getting that. They was getting raped and everything. It's a sick sight to hear because sometimes I wish I

ain't had no ears and no eyes, you know what I mean? Because you hear, I can still hear the screams right now. I could still see flashes and flickers of people getting cut in the yard or stabbed in the yard or just stabbed out of their cell when they come out of their cell seeing people get stabbed in their neck seeing people get stabbed in their ribs a lot of that you know what I mean so when you seeing stuff like that and you coming out your cell and you seeing people getting popped and bloods popping on crips and crips popping on bloods and you'd be like damn so you have to think different now you got to become cold as the prison so there's no more emotions for me there's no more me thinking about my kids and why they ain't coming to see me why the mothers

and my children not coming up I ain't thinking about none of that that's done I don't have no more emotion I have to be cold as to prison because I'm seeing the environment that I'm in is violent and when you have COs who's wearing pillowcases over their heads and cutting their eyes out and coming to your cell coming to everybody's cell flickering their life and banging on your cell doors with them sticks. Man, that's not a place that you want to be in, man. Why would they do that? They was just showing they had power.

They were showing us who really run the jail. We don't run shit. They do. We, in our minds, we think we run it. We might think in that they got the phones. You got upstate, you got upstate New York. They got their phone lines. You know what I'm saying?

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Visit O-do.com to book a demo. It's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. It's a crazy whirlwind when you're in prison. How would you navigate it? Like, break that down. How did you personally navigate it? You know, you stay away from the violence. Are you with the violence?

I was with it, and I was with some of it because it was needed. Like, my fight, like one time I was in the hall, we was getting ready to go to the yard. I gave you an example. When he was getting ready to go to the yard one day in the Attica, I was just leaving El Mora 2003. When I get to Attica, I say by 2005, this is what took place with me. We are about to go to the yard.

And as we standing in the middle of the hall, the gates is closed. But as we stand in the middle of the hall, you know, it would be like maybe 20, 30 people in the hall. So this one guy who already has, had like 17 years in, he got life, which I didn't know at that time. He come through. I'm on the wall. I'm talking to anybody. He come past and he just stops. Yo, you think I'm a joke or something? And I'm like, I don't even know you. Keep it moving. So I go back talking to

my homeboys from the town. He said, yo, you still think I'm a joke or something? You think I'm playing? And I'm like, my man, I don't know you, man. Keep it moving. So he went to a cell. When he come back out, he's wearing these nice tight gloves. He's doing all this. He's like, yo, you want to fight? But the Spanish guy is telling him, yo, uh-uh, your pa, not him, man. He's good people, man.

I know him from El Miro, man. Don't, don't mess with him. He's like, nah, nah, nah, he thinks it's a game. But all along, I don't know you. I don't know you. I never seen you before. So when he said, yo, you want to fight? I was like, yeah, because, you know, when you were asking him,

You ain't about to tell nobody, no. You can't. You have to go for what you know. So we start fighting. I'll beat his ass. You know what I'm saying? And it got to the point that day, that night, when me and him had that fight, he's the big homie for the Latin Kings.

You know what I'm saying? So I didn't know that, though. So now you got blacks on one side, all the Spanish is on this side. You know what I'm saying? And this was every block because they found out that I fought this guy. And people knew this guy. But being the fact that people knew my family members that was in there already, they came out for me. Everybody came out for me.

We had to go in the middle of the yard. You know what I'm saying? I mean, the police, the COs, they had the guns ready. They had the spotlight on us and everything. But we end up squashing it. And then we end up becoming real good peoples after that. We didn't know squashing it. So shout out to my man, Cisco.

Shout out to Cisco. You know what I'm saying? We really became good peoples from there. Did you do all your time in one spot? No, I did them in different prisons. So I started off with El Miro first. Then I went to Attica. I left Attica 2010.

Then from Attica, I went to five points. I was wilding out of five points, too. From five points, I went to Cassacki. From Cassacki, I went to Clinton. No, Clinton, then Cassackie. My classification dropped at Cassacki. Then I went to Green. I went to Greens.

Then my classification dropped from there. Then I went to Levisston. So then I did my last five years in Levitston State Penitentiary. Is it normal to hop around that much in the New York State prison system? Yeah, yeah. But you want to break your beard up, though. You don't want to just keep standing the same place. And plus, Attica ended up sending me out because it was a riot in the yard.

And they thought that I was a part of the riot because I brought some pictures out for my homeboy to see. He's from, the guy is from my town. So I brought these pictures out. This was 2010. I brought the pictures out so he could see him. But I'm telling them, yo, listen, look at the pictures under here. Don't be out just looking at the pictures. He didn't listen.

So now the CO is telling me and him to go to the bubble. As me and him, we in Attica, we're in C block. Remember, I told you. As we walking towards the bubble in the yard, the CO that's cool with me was like, get the fuck down right now. I'm like, yo, I'm like, yo, D. Oh, it's me, man.

It's your Sanders, man. He's like, get the fuck down. on the ground now. So when I go to look at my homeboy from my town from Niagara Falls, I go to look back like this. Man, I see people getting stabbed, cut. It was chaos. That's why he was telling us to get on the ground.

It wasn't that, it wasn't the pitchers. It was because of what was going on in the yard. I mean, you had Muslims fighting. You had bloods, you had crypts, you had, everybody was just, It was, it was crazy. So now they're shooting the tear gas down. We had to, you know, when you got tear gas, if you, you know, I had to bury my face in the ground to live, to survive. So I'm telling my homeboy, yo, just bury your face in the ground and don't talk much.

Just bury your face into the grass, into the dirt because it could save you. You know, you're not inhaling all that tear gas. So we made it out of that. But it was too much tear gas, but we ended up making it out of that. I was under investigation for 72 hours because the police, the COs was really thinking that I had set that up by bringing those pictures out. The cover was taking place. That was further from the truth. So they end up moving me out.

They end up drafting me to five points. So, you know, when I get to five points, I ain't really like five points. It was double bunk. I ain't really like that double bunk crap. But I was in there with people I knew from Niagara Falls. So I was cool with that. Oh, so you're in a single bunk in the other facilities? Yeah, yeah.

And, yeah, I was in a single bunk in other facilities. I was like one bunk. No, in Elmira, I was double bunk with one of my homeboys from Niagara Falls. and one of my homeboys from Rochester. So I was locked in with my homeboy from Rochester first. Then he ended up going over to F Block. When he went to F Block, my homeboy from Niagara Falls came there, and I got him up in the cell with me in Elmira.

So was there only one, there was two beds, but they would only put one person in the single bunk ones? Yeah, you had the single bunks. It was just a single bunk. bunks. But when I was in El Mara, I was in a double bunk. You know what I mean? So we have, I didn't have a, after my homeboy lucky left from Rochester, when he left and went to F block, my home boy, Gubber came from Niagara Falls, and I had got him in the cell with me. Just to look over him to make sure that he good, you know, and letting him know, like,

you don't have to do nothing. I'm settled here. We're good. How long would the facilities be locked down for after a race riot? About two weeks. You know, we're getting like, we getting the brown bag food. If you, you know, you know that. We get the brown bag food. They bringing it to your cell. And if you don't have no commissary in your cell,

you got to try to save that sandwich, them two cookies and that orange juice and that apple and that milk. You got to try to save it the best way you can because you ain't really got no food from commissary. Did you maintain a relationship with your dad in prison? Yeah, I did. I did. My father, we both apologized to each other.

He came to see me one time, and he was like, I don't want to come see you no more. This is my last time. He said, because this place smells. And he said, I've been in here before, you know what I'm saying? So he remember he was in there when the riots happened. So my dad, and they knew my father when he came in there. The COs knew him.

They was like, man, you still look the same. They was telling my dad. And the old COs been in there, man, forever. But they knew my father when he came in. But my father was like, this is my last time coming to see you. I'm not coming to see you no more. You're a grown man now. You made these decisions.

I see you when you come home. He's like, because I've been in here already. I don't want to keep coming in here seeing you. He said, if anything happened, you handle it. He said, I'd rather be, I'd rather for you to be, six, uh, 12 and six. What did that do for you? I was happy just to hear my dad say that because he was right.

I made these, I made my choices. So now I got to lay in them. And I got to, I got to handle myself as a man. And because I did the crimes, not my dad, you know what I'm saying? So he basically saying, be, be the man that you're supposed to be. Make sure, protect yourself in here the best, as the best way you can. and I'd rather for you to be 12 than 6, meaning he'd rather see me face 12 jurors than being 6 feet underground. Do you think that had a big impact on how you navigated the rest of prison?

Yes, because now when my father is saying that, I'm like, okay, my dad, I understand where he's coming from. He laid down a law on the foundation. I laid down my law on my foundation. I'm my own man. I have to handle it like he handled his when he was in prison. So that was my, me being cold as the prison was my survival. That's how I survived in prison. Being cold is the prison. When did you, or when in your prison sentence do you start thinking about what you're going to do next? When I was getting closer coming home, I wanted to start what they was calling me the body

because I was working out and my body started shaping like LLs. So, you know, everybody never really liked me taking off my shirt in front of CO women. Guys really hated that. They really didn't like that, man. But, I mean, I am who I am, man. And, you know, the women, CO women, they love what they love. They like what they like. And, you know, they talk to me a little bit more than they talk to the other prisoners.

You know what I'm saying? Because I always have my shirt off. And I'm always working out on the pull-up bars. So here they come. Here they come. But the CEOs didn't like that either. They didn't like them women talking to me at all. Did you ever flip a prison guard?

Did I what? Flip a prison guard. Fight? Flip. Like, no, no, no. Like, no, not flip off. Like, like make them corrupt or hook up with one? No.

No. You couldn't pull it off? I just wouldn't do it. It was too dangerous because when I was in El Mora, a prisoner was messing with an employee there and they got caught. And then what they do is when they, if they catch you red-handed, like they caught the guy, basically the guy got set up. You know what I'm saying? He got set up.

He told somebody, he told a prison and the prisoner told on him and her. And then they knew when they was going to go. lead up and do their thing. And that prisoner that he talked to, his friend, his homie told on him. That's why I don't save friends because friends are fry you in the end. So I don't say friends. Their friends are fry you and in the end. So I already knew then not to mess with no lady COs, even though I knew I could have.

I didn't. I didn't. I'm not going to be one of these dudes. Be like, yeah, I was messing with the CO ladies? No, I wasn't. And I wasn't the type that was going to set them up to get in trouble like that. Aside from working out, how else did you work on yourself in prison during those years in there? Write books.

I was writing poetry. I was writing studying my book out. I have a book now that I wrote in prison. It's called My Pimp Pushes by T. Sanders. It's out on Amazon Prime right now. It's called My Pin Pushes by T. Sanders. And what's that about? It's basically I'm speaking for men who can't speak for themselves.

It's just like, you know, a man might have a woman. He might not know what to say to her. So here I come. I'm writing and I'm saying what he can't say. And so it appeals to the woman when she reads the book. It's like, oh, man, this is what he thinking. He's how he feel about me and stuff like that. So that's basically with that book.

It's just a poem book, and it's just for the women to read it. I mean, men read it too, and they be like, yo, you speak it for us real good, because I didn't even know to say that to my woman, like, you know what I'm saying? So they was happy that I came out with that book. It was good. How much time do you end up serving on 18 and a half years? Well, I did out of that. Well, you do 16 out of 18, but I did the year in the county.

So that's why I say 17 years. But off of 18, you do 16 years. Okay. What was different about the world when you got out? It wasn't the same. It was flat screen. It was more, I was living in the flat screen era. Nobody from my town in Niagara Falls was outside on the blocks.

It was like all the blocks was clear. Like, nobody was outside. I'm like, yo, dang, used to be a whole bunch of people outside. There's nobody outside no more? Like, why ain't nobody outside? Because the phones, because all they doing is FaceTiming. They're doing more FaceTiming than being on the corner. So it's just this one block where it's a whole bunch of people be at in Niagara Falls right now.

There's just one block where everybody just be at. but you go around other blocks, ain't nobody outside. But you go to this one particular block, everybody outside. And everybody will come over from that side to come on this side. And that is where it is,

that's how it is right now. I kid you not. It's one block. That's where everybody comes to. But you could drive around in Niagara Falls you won't see other people on no other type of corners. There'd be all at this one block.

Was it hard to reconnect with your kids? My children is funny, you know what I'm saying? They're funny because I wasn't in their life, you know what I'm saying, all those years. And so, I mean, we argue, I'm keeping it real. I argue with my children a little bit when I came home because they wasn't used to me. You know, I've been gone. So, you know, I've been gone. I got, I had left him when they was young, six, three. And then I had another. baby's boy coming from another girl while I was locked up. So when I got home, I'm like, then, now I got three. I got four. Now now I got my youngest son is four years old now. You know what I'm saying? His name legend.

But it was an up and down skill with my children, man, because they haven't seen me in so long. When I come home, I'm trying to talk to them like a dad. But he wasn't here. You know, the kids, you know, he wasn't here. Why he wasn't here, you know. But like I told him, it wasn't that I didn't want to be there. I was there.

They just don't, they remember some things, but I was there. It's just that I was in the street and I was doing everything that I wanted to do and I made sure my children was good. You know what I'm saying? A lot of people say, well, I was doing it for my kids. I did say that at one point in time. But I felt like that was disrespectful to say. I was doing it for me.

I was doing it for my rush. I was doing it for my high. Not on drugs, but the robberies was like drugs without taking drugs, if you get what I'm trying to say. So I was more into my robberies during that time. And when I turned myself in and when the police asked me, why did you do this? I said, oh, I did this for my children. Because that was the quickest thing that people say,

oh, I was just doing it for my kids. But in reality, now that I had time to think in prison, I didn't do it for my children. I did it for my addiction. The addiction was robberies. Because I've done so many, so many times, that I was more focused on robberies. I could be sleep and be like, oh, shit.

yo, I'm going to hit that tomorrow. I'm going to rob that shit tomorrow. And I do. I get up and I'll go rob that shit. How long do you think it took to kick that addiction? In prison. But how long? Because I'm sure the day you got locked up, you're still thinking about a robbery.

I'm still thinking about going to rob. Because when I remember, when I made Bell, when I made Bell, I got right out that same day and went to go rob a bank. the minute I made bail. So it's because I couldn't stop. You know what I'm saying? It was like I said, it was like drugs without drug, without taking drugs. It was a rush.

It was a high. So when I made that bet, when I got bailed out, that same day, I went to go rob the bank. That same day, I went home, changed clothes, went to go rob the bank. You know what I mean? So nothing was going to stop me unless I got killed or went to prison. And so when I did that time, I came back home. I was like, no, things was different. My town, Niagara Falls was different. All the houses boarded up. I cried. I shed a tear a little bit because I'm driving around in Niagara Falls. It's nothing there. It's banded buildings. It's just, it's nothing there for us. So I'm a rapper. So I want to make it. I want to make it so I can bring residue back to Niagara Falls. And, and, and, and, build some structure, has some things going for these young kids that's out there struggling right

now. And so I'm really hoping that I'll make it in the music industry so I can bring something back to Niagara Falls. Was it hard to get past that idea of fast money when you got home from prison? Because you spent such a big part of your younger years, you know, with fast money. Yeah, yeah. But it didn't matter to me no more after that because when you're in prison, you make you start off of 15 cents. And this is what people don't tell you. you start off a 15 cent or a 10 cent or something like that, then it's like you make a quarter, so now it's 35 cent. 35 cent, you demand in prison, especially if you're working in a mess hall.

You can come, you can get anything. You can get patties, chicken patties. You can bring everything back to your cell. So 35 cents, once I start working for 35 cents, and I start surviving off 35 cents, learning how to survive and learning how to do the things that I need to do in prison and survive, I was like, oh, I could do that. home. So now, so now it was times where I wanted to go do a robbery because I couldn't get no

job, but I hung in there. And by the grace of my family, my uncles, my aunts, my cousins, they, they help me down. They held me down. And other people outside of that helped me down as well. In my head, yeah, sometimes I still do think about I want to go do a robbery. I'll be sitting here lying to you if I don't tell you this, you know what I'm saying? But yeah, sometimes in my head, I'd be like, damn, I might walk past the bank today. I do. I walk past the bank. I'll be like, and I'll smile, I'd be like, damn. I could get that. You know what I'm saying? But then in my head, I'll be like, no, I ain't. Yeah. How do you fight those urges? By pushing it out by saying, nah, I ain't doing that. Because I know the consequences now. At 51, um,

I still could do it. But I just chose not to do it, man. Because I know I ain't got 17 more years to give you. I got to live for my children now. You know what I'm saying? I got to live for them now. Why do you think some people never realize that? That never hits that hard for some people?

Because they're in the motion. They into what they into. They're not thinking about the next day. They're not thinking about, they're thinking about, they're thinking about that money, the rush, the high, and getting away with the money and what you're going to do with the money after. You're not trying to get, I was never trying to get caught with no money. I never got caught with the money.

Once I go rouse on them, I'm out of there. I'm not, ain't no freeze, get on the ground. Nah, we ain't doing that. I'm going in. I know when to go in. I know when to get out. I know when I go in here for this. money, I'm going in here for this money. And I'm going to get out of there with that money.

And I'm going to go use that money. And then I'll be ready for the next one. That's how I was programmed. That's how I programmed myself. Get the money. Go use it. Do what you got to do. Now, I might, with that first money, I'm going to take care of house and home first, all the kids, the mothers of my children, take care of them. And then I go rob something else, take care of my homeboys, and then I go rob something else, and I'll take care of me. And that's how I was living. I take care of the people that was around me, and then I do me last. And that's how I was living it.

What advice would you tell your younger self if you could sit across from him today? Don't go and do it. Don't go and do it. If you see that bank, you look at it, keep walking. You see that convenience store? look at it, keep walking. Because if you don't young man, you would be in prison or you would be dead. That's what I would tell that old me right now if that old me went back to doing that.

You know the consequences now. If you don't know the consequences, I tell the young me, don't go do that young man. You're either going to be dead or a prison. I end up being in prison because I wasn't shootouts too. And I'm still here. And so I have to tell my story. There's nothing to glorify. But my story can help save a life.

My story can help save a life, man. It's not you're doing your bank robberies, you're doing your robberies, you got your gun on you and all that. It's a 50-50 chance you're going to get caught. And it's a 50-50 chance you can die. And it's a 50-50 chance you go to prison. them all everything is 50-50 you know what I mean if you go to rob somebody with a gun it's a 50-50 chance that man might take that gun from you and kill you with your own gun or it's a 50-50

chance that you will get what you get from them and you make it out but it's another 50-50 chance that that person you got it from going to come for you so it's you have to weigh your options My options today, I ain't robbing no bank, man. I ain't going to rob no convenience store. I got children, grandkids that need me. I can't go away from them like that no more. I did all my time. I gave the state day time.

I'm still not telling them nobody, though. But I don't care how they do. I don't care what goes on. I'm still ain't telling nothing. You know what I mean? I don't do the telling. Does it ever get, you know, maybe depressing or put you down when you think about how much time you spent in prison? I don't regret it.

I don't regret what I did because I did my time. I knew what I was doing when I started. And I knew the consequences that can happen. I knew either I was going to be dead or I was going to be in prison. So I don't regret nothing that I did, man, because I did my time for it. I'd be sitting here lying to you if I'd be like, yeah, I'd be like, yeah, I regret doing. No, I don't.

Because that was the whole purpose of me doing what I was doing. You know what I mean? That's why I could tell my story today. And so when I go to these colleges and I'm talking to these interns, they don't know nothing about that life because they're in college. They didn't grow up in that area where I grew up in. So when they're hearing my story, like, damn, we didn't live like that. How did you live like that?

How did you survive? How did you make it through? You was in prison for all that time? Like, dang, you didn't think about this and think about that before you? No, because I was just thinking about the money. I was thinking about fast green, money spending, looking good, making, throwing money up in the air at the clubs and buying women bottles. And that's the life I was living.

That's what I was thinking, man. I wasn't, I'm the regret. I don't have no regrets, man, because, you know, if I ain't do that, then I wouldn't learn what I know now. What's next for you? Just rapping and getting my other book published. And I got a show to do through stretch. He got the culture report and everybody,

eats media. So I'm with Stretch. He's my manager and he the one who set this up for me to get here because he feel like it's my time now. You know what I'm saying? Stretch feel like it's my time. It's my time to perform. It's my time to let the world know who I am. And that's why I'm here, man. I'm here to let the world know who I am. I'm here to let the world know that it's another day. And that's what this, that's what my album is called. It's called another day. And so, this is what I'm wearing today. It's called another day. So I'll be performing in Atlanta.

That's big. You know what I mean? So I can't wait to June 26 hit. Awesome. So I can go perform, man. I wish you would be there to see it. Yeah. Yeah, well, I'm sure there's going to be a video.

Oh, yeah, yeah. It's going to be videos of it. You will see it. I'm going to represent Niagara Falls to the fullest. I'm going to go down there in Atlanta and represent Atlanta and just do my thing, man. And I hope somebody discover me from, from there because it's a lot in me that they can get from me you know what I'm saying I have stories I have music I have material I have books I'm a I'm an author I'm a I'm a trainer you know what I'm saying

so it's it's a lot of things that I can do that I'm doing right now you know I mean and making a difference I'm out I used to work for um a group called snug it's a snug program in Niagara Falls, but they have it in 15 sites. So they got in the Mount Vernon, Brooklyn, Albany, and just to name a few, Syracuse, Buffalo, Rochester. They have these sites of the programs called Snug, and with Snug mean, it means should never use guns, spell backwards. And in the streets, my nickname Guns, you know what I'm saying? So because I earned that title, I earned that right to be called guns in the street.

So we did a video for the Snug program. Niagara Falls did a video. We did a video. It's called Snug Life. And it's all on YouTube right now. They can go on YouTube and look at it. And we got a bunch of youth who lost their family members by gun violence. And that's what Snug is about us about gun violence prevention.

And so we did a nice video for that to show the world, to show the world, to show the world, Look, we can all come together. We can all unite. We have these young babies out here who are killing themselves. They killing their friends. They, it's all nonsense. So we try to bring together the program and the video to try to bridge the gap, the bridge the gap with these young kids, enroll them back in their schools, get them back in their classrooms. I mean, their schools so they could pass their grades. And that's most important to, snug program that young kids we enroll those young kids we take them on field trips um we we show them certain things different they can come to the building they could play the video games they can

eat in there they can they got a studio in there they can the young youth can go in there and do music so it's a lot of it's a lot of things that snug programs do and they ran by um they ran through community mission so it's a lot of things that this program can do do to help the youth. And all that you've got to do is just follow the program. Just come to the program. You know, they'll be all right. Awesome, man. Well, I appreciate you taking the time to come on the show today. What's out? Thank you, I, man. Man, it's good meeting you too. You too, but I see you on YouTube and you're doing your thing, man. Thank you, man. Doing your thing, well, I couldn't do it without guests like you in the audience. I appreciate you, man. I appreciate

you and your family for letting me in your house. I call it as your house. You know what I'm saying? I appreciate you for letting me speak and, you know, tell my story and give it to you Raw's form. Of course. And we wish you the best for the future. Thank you, man. You too as well. Awesome.