Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was an Officer Inside an Australian Youth Prison - This Is What I Witnessed | Anthony Milbourne

Episode Date: February 16, 2026

Anthony Milbourne traveled all the way from Australia to sit down with Ian Bick and share his journey into becoming a correctional officer inside an Australian youth prison. In this episode, Anthony breaks down how his life experiences led him to the job, what daily life was really like inside the facility, and the key differences between the Australian and American prison systems — from food, routine, and commissary to discipline and inmate culture. He also opens up about the violent attack he suffered at the hands of inmates, an incident that ultimately pushed him to walk away from the career. _____________________________________________ #YouthPrison #PrisonOfficer #AustralianPrison #PrisonLife #BehindBars #TrueCrimePodcast #InmateStories #lockedinwithianbick _____________________________________________ Connect with Anthony Milbourne: LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/anthony-milbourne-806b66333 Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/Psych-Warden-Officers-psychological-account/dp/B0B2TTDCKL _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Violent Prison Attack That Changed Everything 00:25 Meet Anthony Milbourne & What This Episode Covers 00:53 Childhood, Family Life & Early Trauma 03:54 Growing Up in Australia: School & Early Struggles 11:10 Dreams, Ambitions & Early Career Goals 17:40 Art School, Adulthood & Finding Direction 24:42 Career Shift: Entering Law Enforcement 29:04 The Incident That Changed My Life Forever 33:31 Trauma, Recovery & Moving Into Juvenile Corrections 39:42 First Days Working Inside a Youth Prison 45:01 Inside an Australian Youth Detention Center 54:43 Daily Life in Youth Prison: Routine & Structure 01:01:36 Commissary, Prison Food & Inmate Ingenuity 01:07:12 Rehabilitation Programs & Mental Health Inside 01:10:01 Violence, Staff Safety & Gang Attacks 01:21:37 After the Assault: Media, Court & Fallout 01:32:46 Recovery, Career Changes & Personal Loss 01:36:13 Life as a Youth Prison Officer: Daily Realities 01:41:00 Officer Culture, Burnout & Brotherhood 01:44:01 System Failures, Reflections & Writing a Book 01:45:20 Final Thoughts & Lessons Learned Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. These guys know how to fight. These are gang members. I put arms down because unfortunately, in my head, I'm like, I don't want to be the first one to hit him because I'm going to lose my job. So I give him a chance. In my head, I'm like, let him punch me once. And there's cameras around.

He's like, yeah. I was flying. I still remember it in slow motion. His fist is huge. Breaks my glasses and cuts me across here. And then next thing you know, completely dark. I'm like, oh my God, I am blind. My guest today traveled all the way from Australia to share what it was

really like working as an officer inside a youth prison. In this episode, Anthony Milbourne breaks down how he ended up in corrections, what daily life inside an Australian youth facility actually looks like, how it compares to the US system, and the realities of food, routine, commissary, and inmate violence, including the attack that ultimately forced him to leave the job. Where'd you grow up, Anthony? I actually grew up in Perth, Western Australia. That is actually the most isolated capital city in the world. It's also the neck of the woods of Heath Ledger. Yeah. Dark Night, best movie of all time. Absolutely. Yeah. So, um, mom and dad. Yeah. And seven of us kids, I'm the youngest of the kids. Um, my oldest brother's 13 years older than me. Uh, dad, uh, worked as a,

uh, banker. worked in the bank. He was very proud to say that he had a gun with him at all times. They give you a gun? Yeah, back in the day. I'm going back to like a 50s, 60s or whatever. They're allowed to have a little 0.38 caliber, I think it was, pistol with them in the event that someone came in. Not to make a deposit, but to rob the bank.

Yeah, yeah. So he's very proud about that. he did that for many years and then he thought bugger this i'm not going to uh to work for anyone else i'm going to start my own thing and that was uh an insurance broker which he did for a number of years after that in his spare time he used to uh play in a band in a jazz band my dad was self-taught he uh he learned to play the clarinet the saxophone and the uh the squeeze box, but he never played it for us. So he stopped that probably at the age of 50 back in 1980.

Yeah, my dad was very interesting character. He was very much a hoarder. So he would collect, he would be collecting things like as silly as, like the newspaper. Newspaper gets delivered and it's got all the plastic around it. dad takes the plastic off he folds it up and he keeps it aside because you know what he might need it one day this is what happens because he grew up uh during the depression so they very much hold on to things plus he uh he lost his dad when um he was only 16 17 so he was looking after the house himself at the age of 17.

So he's very, um, hardened, you know. He, uh, just something that popped into my head. Um, dad, uh, used to, he used to have a bath in like, must have been three, three inches of water. And he'd be making a lot of noise like, and if someone came to the door, they'd be like, what's that? And we go, oh, we got a pet elephant.

But no questions were asked after that. So anyway, that's my dad. My mum was a homemaker and the best thing in the world. She did everything for us. She loved drawing on the back fence at home. She'd use chalk and she'd be drawing like Disney characters or whatever, like literally, you know, a couple of feet tall. And you do it all across the back fence.

Um, we used to live in a, uh, quarter acre block, um, house. And, um, so there's heaps of room to do all that. Um, as for me, uh, being the youngest, I, um, uh, I used to be a bit cheeky. I remember at school one day, I was waiting for dad to pick me up and I picked a bit of equipment up that was just laying there. And I had a suitcase at this age. I was like six or seven years of age and I had a suitcase. So I opened the suitcase and I put this equipment in there, shut it. Dad picks me up.

I hop in the car in the back seat. And I'm smiling. He's like, what's up? I went, I just got you something. What is it? So I unlocked the case, lift it up. Think of Pulp Fiction with the light coming out. Oh, my dad's eyes light up.

I've gifted him a tomahawk. So a little axe, yeah. So from his perspective, it's a gold axe and it's shiny. and, you know, take the hair out, drop it, cut, close it. In reality, it's an old rusted thing. So he was happy he got a free, a free Tomahawk and didn't get stalled, it's scolded for stealing. Some groundskeeper Willie left this Tomahawk hanging around and this six-year-old

picked it up and took it home. Pardon me. So dad used to like cutting our hair. He'd save money by doing so. We would beg Dad for a long time, just cut our hair, cut our hair, cut our hair, because, you know, it's getting too long. We're looking like Jesus. Just, can you just cut our hair?

So dad's idea. here, he'd bring out the ladder, it's only like yay, yay high, few feet high. And he'd get us one by one to sit on the, on the ladder in the kitchen, middle of the kitchen, and he'd cut our hair. So here I am in my undies, in my underwear, sitting on this, it was a Dunlop ladder. Just remember that, a Dunlop ladder. That was the embossing on it. I'm sitting on it.

Dad's cutting my hair. Oh, sorry, about to cut my hair. And he says, hmm, now what hairstyle do you want today? Whatever the popular hairstyle was of the time, I'd be like, well, I want that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Leave it with me. Leave it with me. You cut my hair as with everyone else.

And it's the same haircut. Parting down the side. Yeah. Just like that, right? Um, so very disappointed. So when you get off the ladder, free publicity for Dunlop. Because you got all the marks of Dunlop all over, all over your legs. Um, yeah, so that was a bit of fun.

Yeah. Were you in your dad close or closer to your mom rather than, or closer to your dad rather than your mom? closer to my mum, to be honest. Yeah, a bit of a mummy's boy, I guess, you'd call it. Not overly close to dad. Dad wasn't very affectionate. And he was too focused on, you know, bringing in the money for the house. Were you guys well off or?

Middle class. Yeah. And in the middle class area, yeah. Was it a nice community? Very nice, yeah. Across the road, we have, um, have a park, just natural park is what I meant. And all the neighbours were nice.

And that reminds me. So when I was about maybe eight, um, I remember jumping the neighbor's fence. They had some chickens. All right. Uh, old, uh, Italian lady looked after the chickens, right? And, um, and, um,

and her family lived with her. And, um, and this happened more than once. So me and a couple of brothers would jump the fence, grab a chicken, jump back over the fence and would lay it on the ground in the sand and have its beak facing forward and then draw a direct line from its beak for about 20 centimetres. right and that would hypnotize the chicken i don't know if you know that but that's how you hypnotize a chicken i didn't know people did that back then um technically they're not hypnotized they just are too scared to move so i don't understand the whole logic of that but it was fun at the

time so we used to do that um another thing growing up was uh and this is all about making do with what you had. So I'm a Gen Xer, right? So I'm very proud Gen Xer. So we, we only had three TV channels to watch. So what are you going to do? You're going to have to come up with something. So we would, if it was a wet day for argument's sake, we would get some toilet rolls. This probably isn't going to make a lot of sense to American people, but I'll try my hardest to explain it. So you know, you've heard about cricket. Yeah, of course. And then they've got the wickets and the ball and everything.

Okay. So we would have the wickets made out of, oh, we'd just use toilet rolls. And then for a bat, we'd just make a, um, uh, a thin, uh, bat about yay big. and for the ball we used to use a golf ball so we'd cut it open with a saw i know they don't do this anymore with the golf balls they don't have this in them anymore but back then they had once you opened it up they had a um a lot of uh what do you call it like tape around it and then you take that off and then it'd be a rubbery ball and it's got whatever in it. So you drain it and then you got this little black ball and you could bounce it.

So in winter we'd be playing in our hallway which was pretty big and we'd have the the wickets like I said. We'd have the bat. We'd have the ball and we'd play on our knees and that was a lot of fun. Another thing was I actually brought this in. The irony. That's just... This episode is brought to you by Redfin.

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and then we'd have the tinfoil, and you know how to click. Then you'd put your finger there and just click, right, to launch it to try and get it into the bin. Just trying to occupy time. The other thing was bicycle parts. We get all bicycle parts that we found and we put,

that we put the parts together and make a bike of our choosing. So you might have a bigger wheel at the front and a smaller one at the back or whatever, spray paint it, whatever. And that was a lot of fun. One thing that stands out is our neighbours, The chicken neighbors, we'll call them the chicken neighbors. The chicken neighbors gifted us a old go-kart. It was just the bare bones of it, the frame of it, no motor, and three wheels.

It was missing the front left wheel. So we would go a couple of streets from where we lived, and there's a big hill. And because it's missing a wheel, the front left we'd have someone standing on the back right to raise it up we'd have someone halfway down the street I'm talking about how far would this be 500 meters or something is quite a fair way for us to go down we'd start at the top of the the street and we'd go down the street no brakes by the way so bear in mind we got someone on the back to lift it up, we got someone driving it, this rickety thing.

Like this, like this. Oh, have you heard you would know Lombard Street, that, that, um, that windy street in San Francisco. No. It goes like this. I've actually never been to San Francisco. Anyway, it's nothing like that. It's just straight down like this. And we get...

We pick up a lot of knots, right? We've been going so fast. And then because we had no breaks, we had to quickly turn left, jump the curb, and then we'd be going down the, the, uh, into the park. So yeah, that was a bit of fun too. So it just gives you, oh, another thing, sorry, um, a ruler and an elastic band and shooting like army men off, off, uh, you know, a lad. A ledge, yeah, that kind of stuff.

When you're a kid, what were you thinking about for a career? Were your parents pushing you a certain way? Or what is expected in Australia for, say, a kid your age to become? No, I'm not a doctor. I love art. So I actually wanted, or initially I wanted to be a zoologist. I work in a zoo because I love animals. But then when I was about 14, 15, I actually wanted to be a political cartoonist.

So I would cut whatever page it was, page 10 of the paper every day. Very mind, Dad kept papers. I would cut page 10 or whatever page it was of that political cartoon of the day. I've still got them today. Years of collecting them. It was just an obsession of mine. So when I was 15 at school when you're in year 10, you get to do work experience somewhere. So I did work experience at the West Australian newspapers, which is that paper that I was talking

about, got to meet that cartoonist and got to work in the art departments. That was really a lot of fun. Yeah. Cold days, big goals. And honestly, no time to come. cook. That's pretty much my life. Between recording episodes, editing, traveling, and trying to stay in the gym, the last thing I want to do at night is figure out what I'm eating. That's why I've been using Factor. I'm big on routine, especially in February when it's cold, dark, and easy to fall off.

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university? So you'd be 17, 18, 18, 18? So almost the same as here. Yeah. So we're like 18, 19. Yeah, absolutely. All right. So it's not that far off. Yeah. Now, were you planning on going after college? So I've got a story here about art. When I was in year, I think it was year 11, my art teacher didn't like me. She thought that I shouldn't be in the class, can't draw, and she hated cartooning. I loved cartooning. She hated anything to do with cartoons. So automatically I'm crap in her eyes. So she's like, I don't know if you, you should continue. you on in year 12 doing this. I did and I was still copying it from her and I'm like stuff you I went home and I was just drawing in my own time and came up with a folio to present to art school

and they're like you're in. So after six months amongst other units that I had to do I got a minus in drawing so I was very happy about that. had to prove a point. Not that she ever knew. And then I still had a yearning to pursue some sort of art. And I liked animation as well. So at the age of 18, I think it was, 18 or 19. I saw something on the TV about animation cartoon starting in Perth in conjunction with a German company.

And I thought, no harm in trying. I'll just write one. This is different back then, obviously. I'll just write one line, whatever it was. I want to work for you. I'm just very, um, obsessed with animation, cartooning, all this.

Whatever I wrote, they get back to me and they go, out of the 200 applications, I kept coming back to yours. You only wrote one line, but I kept coming back to it, whatever I wrote. So I ended up working,

uh, for the animation place in Perth. only for a few months, but I learnt behind the scenes, the camera work, everything. So hold that thought, skip a couple of years. So we're talking 1996. And I see a big production happening in Melbourne. and they were doing a cartoon series in conjunction with a France cartoon company to be distributed all around the world.

And I'm like, I've got to do this. I've got to do this. I've got a bit of experience. I kind of know how it works. I'm going to give it a go. I get a call and they say, sorry, you're too young. You can't leave Perth. It's a long way to come.

You don't know anyone in Melbourne. We're going to knock you back. We're sorry. And I was really upset about that. Got off the phone. Booked the flight. Never flown before. Booked the flight.

Brung him back. Just letting you know I'm over there on Wednesday at 10 a.m. Book me in for an interview. Lou over there. Within 10 minutes, they gave me the job because they're impressed that I went to that extent. to apply. How long were you there for? In that job.

Yeah. So that went for about a year and a half. The cartoon was called Little Elvis Jones and the truck stoppers. My understanding is you can still see it online. And we did 26, 24 minute episodes shown all around the world, except America, unfortunately, because at the time, they wanted 36 episodes. and we could only do 24. And there was a budget blowout by millions of dollars as well.

Now, how old are you when you leave that job? So I would have been 22, 23, around that age. And where do you go after that? After that. Pottering around, doing agency work in stores and all that stuff. And then I moved to I did furnishings, had no skills with my hands except drawing. And they gave me the job because they said, you're good with your hands,

you can transfer those skills to actually making things out of wood, out of timber. So I was making ottomans and bed heads and furnishings stuff. So I was there for nearly 10 years. Wow. Yeah, doing that. So doing, like, exclusive ones, not just for people just walking in. Those four, like, big. How does that path lead to the criminal justice system?

Yeah, I've had a very... A quite variety. Not someone you would expect to ever be in the system at all. Absolutely. Yeah. So after that, I did that for about 10 years. after that I saw an ad for being a parking officer of all things on the internet and I thought oh give that a go so I got into that I did one year of parking for a local government and then that led to me getting into my favorite local government, big one in Australia, where I worked as a local laws officer.

So basically enforcing local government legislation. So is that like a local police officer or? Not poor man's cop. So were you armed or anything? No, no, no, no. So this is to do with, um, like ordinances? Like, uh, um, um, um, um, Could be people illegally touting or, um, like zoning issues.

Zoning, uh, street trading, uh, animal attacks, um, just basically anything that people complain about in that community and you deal with it. And can you make an arrest or no, or just not, not police, not police. I was just joking about saying a poor man's cop. No, but sometimes these local cops have, I guess, authority to do something. It's like a mall security guard in a way. Paul Blart. Oh, yeah, you watch Paul Blart.

But is it just all ticketing? So it's what I would call it and what they call it is voluntary compliance. We want someone to voluntarily. abide by the law, whatever the local law is that you're dealing with in that particular case. Now, what made you want to switch careers to begin with after that 10-year stretch? Of doing the furnishings. Yeah, why switch to the parking? New challenge.

I'm always up for new challenges. And I find that whatever I put my mind to, I can do it every time. I have to be 100% though. But if I put my mind to something, I will do it. So how long were you in this community position for? So not just that local government council, but I did a few. So we're looking at 10 years there as well. Oh, another 10 there.

So you're showing my age, aren't I? So you're in what, your late 30s at this point? So we're getting towards, we're getting towards working in the jail. So I was, 2018. Yeah, I didn't work in the jail to 2018. So what does that make me? 30.

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You could have lunch at the top of the building. It's a safe space. Or you could do, you know, whatever work on your computer upstairs. Once again, safe place. You can let your guard. this particular day, myself and two colleagues went up to the top level and we're having lunch.

One side is a lift all the way up. The other side is a lift to, I think it was the ninth floor and then staircase that goes up like this. Anyway, we're having lunch, having a chance. blah blah blah and bear in mind is literally here this is where a glass panel was so you could see into the stairwell this particular day nice sunny day perfect day with your mates have a lunch safe place look to my right and my friends sitting here and here there's three people three workers with their hands on their head like this looking absolutely distraught.

And the third one had a gun to the nape of their neck from the person behind who was holding the gun. All three of us, safe place, like I said, guard down. used to confrontation. I've had death threats, whatever. This is different. We froze, right? Like, this is in our workplace. Ninth level.

How does someone get in with a gun? They come up. Turns out it was actually a terrorism scenario. So it's fake, but at the time it's real. Now, none of us could move. We're absolutely petrified. And looking back on it, any one of us could have jumped off the building to escape. Or we could have tackled that guy that had the gun.

Fake gun, as it turns out. So it singed in my brain, even to this day, I compare it to a bank holdup, not that I've been in a bank holdup, but someone comes in with a fake gun even. and how you're going to react? You think you're going to die, don't you? You would. So we were told, ah, don't worry about it. It's fake.

You know it's fake now. Get on with your work. I was off work for six and a half months. It just stuffed my brain up. I thought I was going to die in a safe place. I was totally off guard. So I end up leaving that job. This episode is brought to you by Gold Drop Seltors,

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we're doing a fake, a terrorism scenario, just avoid it. Nothing. And then I'm told, get back to work. It's like, what? So I had to put a, I had to go to the cops and put in the statement. And I explained it to the cop. And he goes, my God, I would have shot that guy if I was there. I'm like, thank you.

Anyway, after, I don't know how long I was. I ended up leaving that workplace. I thought this could happen again. I don't know. I don't want to be part of it. It stuffed me up. I didn't work for about 11 months after that. It's probably hard for people to relate to that.

But like I said, if someone's in, someone's a bank teller and someone comes in with a gun, whether it's fake or real, it's real at the time and it gets singed into your brain. I can't explain it any other way. So during our 11 months, do you think I could find a job? No. So I was thinking I'm getting blacklisted here.

I could be wrong, but that's the feeling I thought I got. Then I see, before the 11 months, I see a job going at the jail. And I'm like, I've got no choice. I've got to give it a go. But you know what? I'm up for the challenge. If I can deal with that, let alone. in my normal work dealing with people, I can work in the jail.

So I applied for that and managed to get through. So like I said, by the time I started that job, it would have been about 11 months. And it is a long process, mind you. It's at least three months to get a job in the jail. But for me, it took whatever it was, nine months. But I was determined and I got it. What kind of jail is this? So I'm talking about a juvenile justice center, so a detention center.

And what kind of offenders are house there? You name it. Murderers, chomos, aggravated burglar. Yeah, that one. Burglars, yeah. Yeah. You name it, just everything. All under the age of 18 or 21?

Right. So you can have not at the one I worked at, but there was another one where they had kids as young as 10 in there, which I think is just way too young. Where I worked, there were three units for 14, 15 to 17. and that was like high security. And then there was about five units for 18 and above. Now, we had someone that was 23. He was well and truly an adult. So what happened in his case?

He had actually escaped, right? Number of years, two and a half years he was on the run for. Right, good on him. So he got captured and then he had to complete his youth sentence. So even though he was 23, he had to complete his youth sentence. Youth time. Yeah. Now, when we have someone that's just too dangerous,

we try and move them to adults. The idea is to keep them as long as possible in the youth system, but if someone's just way dangerous, they get moved to adults. So I worked at the youth jail on the floor during the day or about a year. and then I move to nights. Nights is a different beast. The kids are locked up, but you still have interactions with them.

They might need medication for argument's sake. So when I was working at nighttime, I was essentially managing the unit by myself, but if one of the kids or whoever needed medication, I'd have to call for an extra body and the nurse, obviously, to provide it. So you still have those interactions. But essentially, they were locked in, locked in throughout the night, and then they'd be up at 9 o'clock or something.

Now, how do they train you for this job? Once you get it and you're hired, is there training? Is there like a program they send you to? So it was about seven weeks training. Mind you, we don't have weapons. Our mouth is our weapon. And you do get trained to physically handle the job as well in the event that you need to use force. And if you do do a use of force, paperwork.

So to get employed there, and I'm only saying it from my point of view and the way that I was employed. Series of tests and mental tests. They also interview you. You have a scenario-based part where they put you in a room with an actor who pretends to be the kid going off his nut at you. And he's like, don't hit me, don't hit me.

and you've got to calm him down. If you can prove you can calm this actor who's pretending to be a kid in the jail, you basically got the job. So it worked. Now, would you say you're the oldest one in this training? Not that old, do you? At that time, I mean, people are probably taking this as a career, so, or are they starting later in life?

The preference is for people who have lived experience anyway, and the fact that I had 10 years of compliance and enforcement, I thought I'd be a good fit. I still think I was. Obviously, we had young people working there as well, as young as like 21, but you'd find that most of them were middle-aged. And what was a starting pay for a job? that. Oh, going back a bit now. I'll say it in US dollars, so I've got to convert it. Um, back then 40 something thousand USD. Okay. So it's probably comparable to what they pay here for a

position like that. I think now it's 60 something thousand because they're screaming out for people. Just like here. They're, they're hurting for people. Absolutely. You know, a lot of times there's understaffing and that's one of the issues. Tell us about that first day on the job once you got, you know, you're done with training, you're on there. Is it what you expected it to be? All right. So you're given a unit.

I was given the admissions unit and you think, oh, yeah, this will be all right. As soon as the door closes behind you, you going, oh, shit, what have I got myself into? And, you know, I think it's different here. You guys have a lot more kids in a unit or in a pod, don't you? I think our maximum was 15. Oh, yeah, that's not flying here. I mean, just in a prison, it's like 400 sometimes. I was in units with three or 400 guys per guard.

So you guys have a different ratio probably. So the idea is to have one worker per, I think it's three. Yeah, that's not a thing. thing out here. Ideally. But, you know, I was left in a unit by myself with 10, which doesn't sound like a lot compared to what you're saying. But it's scary if you don't know the unit, you don't know the guys.

Because you get used to where your potty is, where your unit is. You get used to the guys. I was actually lucky. Being admissions, most of the guys. most of the guys in all those other ones, other than the younger ones, came through admissions. So I got to know them. So if I had to fill in somewhere else, I knew how they operated. And they knew how I operated.

Now, were you surprised by the age, how young individuals were committing crimes? Did you know that those types of crimes were happening with that age group? In what regard? Well, maybe when you're growing up and you hear about, about crime, you might not hear about it, like a 10-year-old or an 11-year-old or a 12-year-old committing some horrible acts. Was that a shock to you that there was individuals that young committing those kind of crimes? So obviously, like I said before, where I actually was, we didn't have them that young.

But when I found out about it at another detention center, it worried me. Yeah. Surely they can be rehipped. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. This episode is brought to you by Subaru.

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How about a creamy mocha for appuccino drink? Or a sweet vanilla. Smooth caramel maybe. Or a white chocolate mocha. Whichever you choose, delicious coffee awaits. Find Starbucks Frappuccino drinks wherever you buy your groceries. Rehabilitated at a younger age. Now, what's the crime rate in the crime stats in Australia?

Is it high crime? Is it, how would you describe it? So there is an epidemic of gang-related crimes. You know, people run around the streets with machetes a lot. And that's happened even more so since I left the industry, which was 2021. So it's pretty high. So, you'd find that's happening everywhere anyway. Well, maybe they're just showing it on TV more.

I don't know. But it appears to be a lot worse. Now, these kids that are incarcerated, are they all gang related? Or mostly gang related? A lot of them know each other. There was a particular unit that had just gang members. The idea is to try and split them up if it's safe to do so. You get people in who have murdered someone.

And the irony is they're the easiest ones to deal with, I found. The ones I found the hardest to deal with were the wannabe, what I call the wannabe criminals, where, you know, they still cars. Big deal. but they want to compete with someone that's murdered someone or rape someone. In terms of chomos, they don't change. I'm all for rehabilitation of anyone that comes through. I stopped short with chomos.

I just, from what I've seen in the jail, they don't, they don't change. So now you're talking about teenage chomos. So we had in the admissions unit, it was 18 to 21 essentially. Which is very young for someone to be convicted of that crime. Absolutely. So, you know, kids or young adults that essentially raped their niece, rape their dog. It's just sick. How common do you think that was?

Hard to say. I, when I first started, I wanted to know why someone was in. I want to do my research on this guy. I want to know what his background is. Why did he do this? Blah, blah, blah.

I soon realized I didn't want to know. So after a bit of time, I wouldn't be able to tell you why someone was in, but there were more rapists than what I thought. which is a bit scary. When you did find out someone was there for, say, a type of crime like that,

would you talk to them and see why they did the things they did out of curiosity? I didn't want to know at all. There's one particular guy, the first one that I came across, I didn't talk to him for two days. How can you help someone that's raped their niece, raped a dog of all? things. Just horrible. How can you, what's the, what's the point? I'd rather put my time and effort into these other guys. Anyway, got to be professional and just get it out of your head and you just treat them in the better comments normally. Now, how long would say those individuals stay in

prison for and do they get moved up to a higher security like an adult prison once they reach a certain edge. I found that they didn't stay long at all. So like two years. And then they're released to the public again? So, um, um, um, um, can't remember what you call it. The, the interim is phased. So they get released, but they still got a report. Yeah. So like probation kind of. Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, how? That's not. punishment two years for that. Did you find that the sentencing was lenient out there in Australia?

I think so. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, say like a case like murder, are they giving a life sentence for that or? No. No, not at all. There was, well, it depends on the situation. we had a guy in our unit who was in the main pretty cooperative one day we're sitting out in the yard

he comes up to us a few of us workers and he says I'm getting released soon you'll see me on the news I've got a gun I intend to use it yeah whatever mate go away whatever so he gets released

About a month later, he's on the news. He killed his supposed best friend. And the footage was shown, the grainy footage was shown on the TV. He actually shot his supposed best friend in the stomach, killed him. And on the news it said, it was over a car. And the guy's inside that knew him said, no, no, no, it's about a girl. So I'm like, oh my God, why didn't I report this?

It's like, and then I'm thinking I probably couldn't have done anything about it anyway, really, when I think about it, but it's horrible that he said in a roundabout way he was going to do something. Were there politics among the kids, like in America, if someone is a sex offender, people would have a problem with that in prison? Do you see that out there? Absolutely. Yep.

So if someone's found to be a chomo, they're bashed. They bashed. Like assaulted or? Assaulted. Yep. Yep. And dare I say it, some officers let it go on a bit. There was one guy in my unit who came up to me.

I used to be a bit silly with how I would answer questions. that were asked from inmates sometimes to prove a point or get a message across. This guy comes up to me and he says, hey, Anthony, can you check on that guy? I reckon he's a chomo. Can you find out for me? And I went, I've been dying for you to ask me this. Who's to say they don't think you're a chomo? Who's to say you're not in a whole unit of chomos?

He goes, oh, don't worry about it. So that's how I'd deal with it. Would you say that other guards could be aggressive? Do you witness corruption at all in there? I didn't witness anything, but I have heard of people bringing in contraband. What would be considered contraband out there? Anything. Cigarettes.

A lot of guys would be asking for, a lot of the inmates would be asking for cigarettes. My understanding is, I think, once someone did do it, and got marched off. Now, what about the layout of this facility? So the three units, which is higher security, you know, you got your standard, um, courtyard, you know, basketball, whatever and big benches.

The layout, the map layer, or the layout, or the layout, out of the unit, you mean? Of the whole entire facility, how it's laid out, like what the living arrangements are like. So when I first started, uh, so the adult, you know, 18 and above side, um, sometimes you'd have more than one person in a room and they stopped that after like three months, I think. essentially you'd have one person per room in the unit and you'd have up to 15 in that unit and like I said they'd have the the basketball court and whatnot you know you'd have a wing have a wing here with half the rooms half the inmates bedrooms there and in a wing there the other half

and you'd have the the lounge room the I think you call it chowel kitchen and then you'd have a what we call the fish bowl where you could go in there close the doors and work on the computer

but then you got 15 kids banging on the on the window and on the door so it's very hard to do your computer work as they're doing all this stuff. They're very demanding Are the facilities, would you say clean? Is it a good place to be? Bearable.

Yeah, bearable. And are there activities for the kids? Like, say, like a video game systems or anything of that nature? So they were big on PlayStation's. They would get PlayStation's. Yeah. Wow. Place, not each, sorry.

So in the, so there was a lounge room, but then it was like a, another room and they'd have their little library and you know they could do whatever training in there you know if they're having an English lesson or whatever and then there'd be another couple of other rooms that they could escape to to paint or whatever they wanted to do but with the major activities they would have to go out of the unit and we'd have to take them to a bigger area. So in the morning, we would have like a toolbox meeting. So we'd all get together.

I'm saying before the, the, the kids get up. And we'd discuss, uh, what happened night before. So the person that worked at night would inform us, you know, this is good, this is bad, whatever, watch this person, whatever. and then in the morning after the kids had their breakfast, probably once a week, I think this was. We'd have a toolbox meeting with the kids and say, what do you need?

Someone might need new shoes or, you know, they need to see a doctor or a dentist, whatever. I need to see someone else. Activity-wise, usually, first thing after breakfast, they'd go to the gym. They're big on the gym. And if they didn't go to the gym, they'd be doing gym work outside and be playing basketball. The big on art, music was probably the biggest thing.

I love their rap music, you know, two-pack, Shakur. And, you know, every one of them wants a recording contract. Some of them are really good, mind you. Some of them are really good at sport too. So it's a waste when you look at that. What kind of shows are they watching? Love the news to see if they can see someone that they know or themselves, if they've just come in. crime, anything to do with crime, and reality shows.

So it's very similar to like the inmates in America, yeah. You know, married at first sight. I guess you've got that here. Love at first sight, I think. Is it called? Or Bachelor and all that? The Bachelor, yeah, yeah. Bachelorette.

They love all those kind of shows. And some of them would go to bed early and do you know what a Fifi is? Yeah. Yeah. They would make Fifis? How would they make a Fifi? So they'd get a glove, like a surgical glove thing. And then they, I'm not good at explaining this, but they'd fill it up with warm water.

They tie it a certain way. And then it's like, I'm off the bed. Yeah. Go for it. Sure you'll nudge it out. Was that the first time you ever found out what a Fifi was? Yeah. And for the audience, you want to explain to them what a Fifi is?

Oh. Yeah. Yeah, so essentially it's their way of having a companion, essentially. They'll go and have sex with it because it's apparently very much the same. So once they did that, it's like, mate, I'm locking you in. You know, you do it yourself. You clean it up yourself. Now, would they get in trouble for that or?

I didn't see anyone get in trouble. And not that I think it's a good thing, but it's not hurting anyone. If anything, it's going to make them less aggressive, isn't it? That's how I looked at it. What about communication with the outside world? Is there, how are the phones set up? Is there email or is there tablets, letters, so visits? They had visits on the weekend.

Had to be advanced, booked in advanced. And it'd have to be family only. Certain people that are on their list that we are aware of, they couldn't just have random friends coming in. So that would be Saturday and Sunday, public holidays. And it'd be, I think it was 10 a.m. till 2pm. And they'd take turns. You know, there'd be whatever, five in the room.

in the kitchen. So we'd black out all the kitchen and that's where we'd have the have the mate. And in regards to phone time, how about that? Sorry, phones. Uh, so they had a bit of credit

that they could use. That's free or? That's given to them for free. So it's like, I honestly can't remember the exact amount. It could be 20 phone calls. calls for two weeks or whatever. I don't know the exact amount. Um, a lot of times they'd ring up and, oh, it's not working.

I want to, I want to get that reimbursed, but they'd be up to something. Um, a lot of times, um, they'd get off the phone and they'd be angry, you know, because their, their girlfriend split up with them. That's the famous one. Um, or. dare I say it, someone's died or whatever, and you know, you've got to just give them a bit of space. And I used to be like, I know you've got it tough, do you want to shoot some hoops or something

and just deal with it that way? Most of the time they agreed. Cards was very popular. Ping pong table tennis. very popular. But in the main, I think they weren't given enough activities to do. And that's why a lot of crap happened. You know, if they're not busy, they're going to be up to mischief.

What about commissary? Do they get commissary? So every, I think it was Tuesday, they would get that. And they could order. Oh, fancy this. I don't know if this happens in America, but they could buy, um, uh, powder.

No, weight gain powder. Oh, oh, protein powder. Protein powder. Protein powder. Protein powder. These guys, they come in skinny and they'd bulk up so quick, and they're allowed to have the protein powder. Why?

What were some other items on the commissary? Chips, Coke. Oh, you could buy like cards if you want to send a card or what else was there? A lot of things, a lot of things. Yeah, I can't remember fully everything they could buy, but there was. but there was a lot to buy. But the problem I thought, the thing I really did not like is it'd be overpriced. So say a can of Coke is a dollar in the jail, it's going to be $5.

Why do this to them? It's so similar to an American. Why? And if they're working, if they've been good, they've been on good behavior and they might get a job to, do the gardening or whatever. They're getting something like, don't quote me on this, they get something like 50 cents

a day or whatever. Why? That's slave labor. If they're actually working, give them what's deserved. Yeah, they're in the jail, but give them what, at least they deserve. That's interesting that the pay system is very similar to the US too. Now, what about the food that the prison serves the kids? Okay, a lot of waste. This is something else that really got my goat.

I really didn't like the waste of food because they can do it. They're obsessed with two-minute noodles. Instant, like ramen noodles. Just anything two-minute noodles, ramen noodles, whatever. The prison itself, the facility, not the kids. No, no, the inmates. Oh, they'd just... They buy that off commissary.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And, oh, you know, they'd have their sandwiches. They'd have basically your meat and three veg or whatever it is, you know, potato peas, stuff like that. And a lot of them would have, I can't remember the meat that it was. I'd get meat and just chuck it in between. bread and ate. Oh, like sloppy Joe? Yeah. Like it's a mixture of meat, like a pork or beef or,

yeah, all mixed together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe with some barbecue sauce. Yeah. Now, with peanut butter, um, uh, butter, um, you call it jelly. Yeah. Jam. Uh, they're in those little packets. The little packets, they don't have like proper jar or anything. And milk, uh, uh, was in like a bladder. We'd have bladders. Yeah. And they could drink out of that. Would you say the food was good and the portions were big or now?

Portions were good. Food was bearable. But a lot of times they'd revert back to the two minute noodles and their toast. Would they make any creations? Like inmates in America are known for making like nice. dishes in prison are kids or inmates creative out there? I know they had like a, they make like donuts out of the bread. So they get rid of the crust and they make some sort of a donut. I know that was popular. Um, there was, I think there was a cooking class

every week. And, you know, there's always one or two of them that will grab sugar. They'll grab some fruit and I go to their room and, uh, make some hooch. Oh, they would actually make hooch out there. Yeah. How would they make it there? Did you get to witness that at all? I didn't witness it, but they would, you know, grab whatever they can get, essentially, but sugar and, and, and fruit and take it to their room and just leave it,

however long it takes to ferment and then get drunk on it. What's the drinking age? in Australia. 18. 18. So are these the older kids that you're seeing create the hooch? So they're over 18 anyway. Okay.

Now, in terms of, um, um, like they'll, they'll hide, uh, we'd find like cigarettes, rollies cigarettes, um, a lot of times would be under the carpet. I don't think you guys have carpet in your, jails, do you? No. Yeah. So this particular place I worked at, some of the places had had carpet. So you'd lift up a corner, whatever corner you want, there's bound to be some cigarettes there. Now, what about the rehabilitation and mental health aspect of it? Are there counselors or their case managers helping these kids? So we essentially did a bit of case management, we'd have dedicated case offices as well.

It's all about rehabilitation, allegedly, and people like myself generally go in there to try and make a difference to these kids' lives. And like I said, some you just can't change. We're dealing with kids with drug addictions, mental health issues, a lot of things. And how are we meant to deal with this from a worker point of view, I'm saying, from an officer point of view, how are we meant to deal with that?

We're essentially a parent, a doctor, fireman, psychologist. we're everything to these kids, how are we meant to rehabilitate them when we aren't really qualified to do so? I mean, the best we can do is listen to them. They've got some amazing stories, some very sad stories as well. They had their psychologist that they could talk to, and a lot of them did. And from a work, a point of view, we had our own, not a psychologist, a, what do they call them? Workplace therapist, I think they called, along the lines of a psychologist, which definitely helped as well.

They basically had everything at their disposal if they wanted to use it. Now, are you witnessing violence and fights in these facilities? A lot. Yeah. And sometimes it would be. another unit so there was always a designated officer in every in every unit that would run to another unit if they needed assistance a lot of the fights from my unit you know what he'd define as a really bad one you know I mean I I guess

guess you get desensitized to it. You see someone get punched in the face or whatever. There was an incident that I was involved in where I got assaulted. Yeah, tell us that story. So this was when I was on night shift. And my shift started at quarter to eight by memory, quarter eight at night, 12 hours. Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry.

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It's normally about, I think it's eight or ten, but then they'll get mandated to overtime. Oh, I thought I heard more than 12. No, I don't know if the shift actually starts with 12 unless they're ordered to do overtime. Okay. But I know a common like doctors and nurses will typically do like a 12 hour shift like four 12 hour days or three 12, yeah, three 12 hour days. But I don't, I haven't heard of it too much in the correctional. Yeah, so we did three or four 12 hour days. And is it 40 hours a work week or? So that would be. If you're doing four, that's 48 hours. Yeah. So are you getting overtime or? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Good money by the way. You can make a lot of money working in a jail

or prison. A lot of money. You're not going to have a life. How much is overtime double pay or time and a half? There's time and a half and double depending on what day it is, you know, public holiday you're going to get twice the money. Okay. So similar to America. So I was working at night when this incident happened. I rocked up about 20 minutes, 30 minutes even earlier than my shift. I like to prepare. I don't want to just rock up with a minute to spare walk in. So I used to just ease, ease into the day or night in this instance. On this particular night, I was waiting comfortably in a quiet room,

which was just adjacent to my unit. And, you know, I'm all miced up and ready to go. But, you know, it's 15 minutes to go. I don't need to go in yet. but I could. Anyway, the code was called for an assault. And in literally like a second or two later, a guttural, like really scary guttural code was called.

And I'm thinking, I was just, my gutts telling me that's got to be a worker and a really bad assault. Spring into action, even though I wasn't meant to start for another 15 minutes. So I go through a number of doors, get into my unit. So it's about 20 meters away. So I'm running and there's just people everywhere.

And I'm looking at a wing. So half the unit. And I'm running towards this, it was a gang attack this time. on one of the workers. And he's got, I think he must add about five people on him. Just going to town on him. And one of the female workers was laying on top of him to protect him. So she was copying a few kicks.

But yeah, it's a bit of a blur because it happened pretty quick. and I sight down where my friend's head is, there's this big guy, like literally like 300 pounds, kicking him in the head, stomp like full on stomping on his head, right? And I'm thinking he's going to kill him. So we're taught in our training. You should grab someone with another worker.

So there should be two of you that go in and grab someone, for your own safety. This guy's huge. And there's no one else around. I've got to grab this guy to save my mate from copping any more kicks. So I go in there, I grab, grab him. And with all my might, get him off my mate. And I'm like, oh shit.

I'm in a bit of trouble here. We know a bit of self-defense, right? But these guys know how to fight. These are gang men. members. I put my arms down because unfortunately in my head I'm like, I don't want to be the first one to hit him because I'm going to lose my job. That's what goes through your head. I don't want to be seen as I'm doing something wrong. So I give him a chance in my head. I'm like, I'll let him punch me once. And his cameras are in. He's like, yeah. And he's big, his fist is huge.

I was flying. I still remember it in slow motion. And it, and it breaks my glasses and cuts me across here. And then next thing you know, completely dark, I'm like, oh my God, I am blind. And I'm freaking out.

I'm freaking out. And no noise. Couldn't hear anything. So my senses are like gone haywire. He's full on punching me. hitting me everywhere. And I'm like, one, two, I'm counting the punches. Yeah, someone will turn up soon enough.

Three, four. Just literally, as much as it sounds silly, I'm counting the punches. Yep, five. He'll stop. Someone's going to count. That's fine. Whatever. But I was more concerned about the darkness.

I'm like, oh, I'm blind. And then someone grabs me, bearing in mind, my jacket's over my head still, right? It's all pitch black. Someone's grabbing me. I'm like, why is he hugging me? That's even more. I'm scared about that too. Just don't get, don't fall to the ground because I'm, I'm gone.

If he takes me to the ground. He didn't get me to the ground. I don't know how I held my, my balance. he hit me 19 times right broke my nose and cut my face whatever and um oh i got whiplash as well that first punch just fall on head goes back and it all goes quiet and i'm like oh my god this went for two minutes two minutes of punching me i find out later it's like 30 seconds No way. So time just slows down.

I think they call it tachaphasia, if anyone wants to Google that word. Now, after that 19 punches, because I didn't want him to get to 20, I unzip, well, from here, unzip the jacket. And the lady that, one of the workers grabbed me, one of the ladies.

So she had gotten between me and him to stop me from copying worse punches, if you can call them worst punches. She's like, oh, you're right? Yeah, yeah, I'm alright. And there's this, like, blood coming out of my nose. And then I look down, I go, the bastard ripped my shirt. Brand new shirt and he's ripped it. I was more concerned about that.

Anyway, I got grabbed by the workers. Oh, those, that guy. and a couple of other guys, the main um, protagonist in this got taken to their rooms, first of all, and then I was taken out to another room. And I was complaining about my neck. I was worried about my neck,

really bad, Wittlash. So ambulance came and they had to put a thing around my head. Meanwhile, the, uh, the other guy that, got bashed, got assaulted. He was still laying on the ground in the hallway and like, can someone grab him? Anyway, turns out he got a broken back, broken nose, broken finger, broken ribs, concussion, and he was completely like black, right?

So a severe assault. So yeah, we got got taken to the hospital, which is like 40 minutes away. Media's tailgating us, right? Yeah, who tipped off the media? Because this did go, it went globally. So it was one of the, you call them, union, union guy. So he, um, whether indirectly or directly or directly, or direct, directly made sure that the media found out.

Now, we're in hospital. Media's out the front. Oh, they took us in the different way, which was good, by the way. I go home that night. My mate's in for whatever it was, three days. We got a phone call from the manager, I think it was, like quarter to six at night, saying, just letting you know. you're on the news tonight, just giving you the heads up.

Like, I didn't ask for that. Dealing with this, this crap. Now you're telling me I'm on the news. I'm a poster boy now for the detention center. Is that what you're saying? Sorry, mate, we tried. I don't know if they tried or not. Presumably they did.

But at the end of the day, we're all over the media. So sitting at home, the head's all over. First, first. First story. You're dealing with the physical assault. And I can tell you now, as much as there's a bad assault, not so much on me, but more so on my mate. Now you've got to deal with the media.

Now, our names were also released, which is what really pissed me off, pissed us off. Why put us potentially in danger? Why? So it turns out the magistrate had given the okay to the media to release our names because it was in the best interest of the public. And this all happens that quick. They're able to bring it to a judge that fast? Oh, I don't mean like the next day. Oh, okay. Whenever it was. Um, so the assault's nothing. You know, bad. But what got to me? me was the media attention. And then I'm like, my sister rings up, oh, oh, something happened at that place you worked

at. Do you know who got assaulted? Yeah, yeah, me. So that's how I first realized that it went national, first of all. Apparently, the Washington Post rang the operations manager, wanting to talk about it. And he's like, no, no, no, no. I've seen the story in Vietnam, China, you know, all these other, you know, I can only presume it came to America. I'm not sure, but it definitely went international to, you know, other places.

Like, I didn't ask for this. Thank you very much. So the three guys that, the three main ones that, um, caused. the assault. They were all in a gang who had assaulted, I think it was the night before, like really bad, a couple of other inmates in another unit of which one of them had said to the workers in that unit, I shouldn't be here. I need to get into another unit. They're going to bash me. Nothing happened. Wow, that's crazy. So the three that, uh, caused that assault.

They had to go to court. So they got recharged. You ready for this? So they were 18, 19 and 19 by memory ages. So they were adults at the time when they assaulted us. Now, when an officer is assaulted, it's six months.

You get six months for that. So the big guy, he's assaulted like four, people. So in my head it's like, well, it's automatically going to get two years, right? Goes to court. By memory, one got six months on the dot, the other one, eight months, and he got, he got 11 months sent to adults where they were sorted out there, which is good. And then sent back to their country, they weren't Australian. They got sent back to their country, never to return again. So that's the good news out of all of that. Where are, so all the kids in, in that facility are not just from Australia. They're not Australian, some of them aren't

Australian citizens. Where are they from? Um, different places. Interesting. So like, I, I bet you in the, or I don't, I don't think that it's too common in like the America, American juvenile detention facilities to have, um, people that aren't American citizens there. Yeah. Yeah. So from Tonga and New Zealand. Mm. Mm. They're married. Interesting.

Yeah. So after this assault happens and things die down, do you go back to work or are you traumatized by that? What's your thought process after something like this happens? So it was more about the media attention than the assault from my point of view. I had about three months off. After you have your nose broken, you can't have it surgically fixed for at least two weeks. So that prolongs it, obviously.

And, you know, you have people ringing you up saying, oh, how are you? And then you've got to go through the whole story again and again and again. So it really drains you, it gets to you. Um, the recovery was long. In other words, when I did go back to work, I was still recovering mentally. Uh, so I went back after three months, wasn't allowed to go back on the floor, mind you. And I thought it was probably a good thing because I actually wanted to take it out. even though those guys had been removed, I wanted to take my anger out on someone.

So I thought if I was allowed to go back, I'd probably lose my job. I'd probably start assaulting someone. And I'm not like that. But because of what happened, kind of, you know, brings up a lot of anger. And more so, not so much what happened to me, believe it or not, I actually don't hold a grudge to this day about getting assaulted from that guy. I just happened to be the one that was grabbing him. But I was really offended by what he did to my mate.

It was just uncalled for. So, yeah, went back after three months. And I got put, doing filing of all things. So when you get back to work, some people, for whatever reason, they're probably living under a rock, don't know who specifically is injured, in certain events.

But with mine, they're like, oh, which assault were you? It's like you're given a number. You get a number and wait in line. Okay, your assault number four. Oh, yeah, I remember number four. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's almost as silly as that. That's how often assaults happen.

The fact that ours was a bigger assault. And mind you, the precinct was shut down for the first time. over that for two or three days. I think it was three days by memory. Completely shut it down. So the kids weren't allowed out of their rooms for three days because of it. Um, yeah, so I went back and I was told, oh, you're doing filing. So here I am doing, you know, a menial task. I'm better than filing. No offense to people doing filing, but I need something more. I'm just literally filing things away. all day.

Oh, I think initially I did like half a day when I got back. And I complained. I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm better than this. Put me in stores. I want to learn about what stores does. So after a lot of towing and froing, they agreed and I went to stores for, I don't know how long.

I think it was literally a month. But I saw what they did. What stores? So where all the food is, what they're going. going to distribute. Oh, like storage. Yeah. What they're going to distribute to, um, to the whole precinct.

So, you know, we get deliveries and you stock it all up. So that's basically what stores is. And I'm like, no, I'm not allowed back to the floor. So I've essentially lost my primary job that I was there for. Give me something else. In fact, I'm going to suggest you put me in. infrastructure because they need someone. I don't have a clue about infrastructure and what they do.

Put me there. Towing and throwing, but I got my way. So I stayed there for about a year. Best job ever. So I'm still at the, I was still at the precinct doing a really meaningful role and learning all of this infrastructure work. So essentially you're dealing with contractors. So anyone that comes on the precinct contractors or even the staff, new staff, you know, you issue them with temporary cards or permanent cards depending on who they are.

They have to come through infrastructure and you do the biometrics and all that stuff. And maintenance. So you deal with the maintenance side of things. and security, um, CCTV, where I saw a lot of assaults, the irony to it all.

Um, but I couldn't do anything about. I just had to watch it. So that was the infrastructure role and I love that. So I was there for about a year doing that. Um, I was promised to a role, but it didn't come to fruition.

So that was really disembate. because I loved working at the jail. Really good people. But that didn't work out. So, and the other reason is, uh, my mum, my dad had died and my mum, as it turns out, was dying. So my wife and I sold, I hadn't sold the house. Sorry at that time. I said, look, you stay here, look after the house. Um, um, I, um, I, I'll go over to mum and we will sell the house. However long it takes, we will sell the house. I need to be with my mum.

So I got back to, oh, you know, the COVID lockdowns. Were you working there during the lockdowns? Yeah. What was that like? Weird. So I was considered a essential worker or whatever. So I had a, you know, documentation to say, you know what, he's allowed. He's allowed to, so long as he's going straight to work, straight home, you're allowed to do it.

So, you know, you'd have the army there. You've got to go past the checkpoint. Oh, so they were really strict with these lockdowns. Yeah. Melbourne was the worst in the world, the longest in the world. A bit of trivia there. Longest lockdown. Do you think the lockdowns help cure the spread, stop it?

So where I was born, Perth, the best state. They shut it down like almost immediately and stopped the spread. So Perth definitely did well. So yeah, so I was allowed to it was, it was, um, amazing. There's just like no one on the street and you just go straight to, well, you get held up at the checkpoints. It was just really weird. Um, but it was like an outing. You know, everyone else is stuck in their room and I get to go out of the house.

I know it sounds kind of trivial and nothing great, but I felt special that I was allowed to get some fresh hair. But, yeah, that was horrible. Wearing the mask. The kids didn't wear the masks, though. Most of them didn't, and we didn't enforce it. So, yeah, that was, that was, that was a tough time in a different way. So how long after from you not getting the job did you leave and depart?

So, oh, it's pretty quick. I think, uh, I can't remember. It was like pretty quick a month. I don't know. Off the top of my head, about a month. So I went back to, went back to Perth. Oh, sorry. No, no, no.

Sorry. I had to get a, I wanted to get a job first. So I lined up a job. Luckily I got a job. So it would have been a month. Maybe a bit longer, actually. So I managed to secure a job government. job in in Perth.

So I felt like at least I'm getting money coming in. So I left the other job, moved to Perth, spent time with my mum every day for six weeks, and then she died unfortunately. So we ended up selling the house and moving back to Perth. Yeah. Now, what do they call your role in Australia? Is it prison guard as a correctional officer? or what's what's the proper way?

Is it none of those? Youth justice officer is what I was. So, yeah, that's what I was called. Yeah. Now people that aren't, that don't work in that field, do they still refer to you as, say, guards? Like, kind of like what Americans do? Hate being called a guard. Yeah, but do people in Australia call you that?

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Oh, you're just, you just, key turner. No, we do a lot more than that. that. See, the difference between, uh, juvenile and adults, first of all, I've heard nothing but juvenile justice is so much harder than adults to deal with, more challenging. And we don't like being called guards, basically. Um, so we spend all our time literally amongst the inmates

Now, I went to another, I had to fill in a particular day at another unit, and they were gang members. Basically, the whole unit was gang members. And I didn't know any of them. And I'm like, well, I'm stuffed. What am I going to do? In my head, I'm thinking that. I'm like, put on a brave front. I mean, you should always be yourself.

You know, never lie to, to the inmates. Always be yourself. But you still have to put up some kind of a front. So I'd grab the newspaper and inside I'm dying. I'm like, well, I'm stuffed. And I'd sit literally in the middle of them on the lounge. And I'd read the paper. Yeah, yeah.

How's it going? Oh, did you hear about this? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But in my head, I was scared as. Things you've got to do. And, you know, Um, inmates will say, oh, what car do you drive? I'll go, mate, you know what car I drive.

There's a window there. You see me fucking coming in every day. I drive that car. See how common the car is though? Good luck finding me. Or they'd say, oh, where do you live? Like I live blah, blah. I wouldn't say I live miles away.

I'd say like the next suburb or something. So, you know, you, you don't want to give all your information. obviously, and they've got the best memories. They just remember everything. Do you feel like you can relate to the correctional officers that come on this show? Because that's how you found this. You were watching. You had emailed me last year about coming.

I was like, well, are you sure you want to come all the way to America? You're like, yeah, I'll come out there. So do you feel like you relate to them? The ones that generally care about the inmates, I do, yeah. I don't like the ones that pretend to be tough. and they actually not, you know, I think, like I said, just be yourself. You know, I, you know, I've got tattoos, right?

I think tattoos are good as an officer as well because it's a talking point. And me being a goose, if anyone asked me about them, you know, I got Chinese writing. So I'd say, oh, says left arm, and the left one says right arm. Really? No, mate.

So I'd have a bit of fun with the inmates. Or, you know, we'd have sometimes snakes, like very venomous. We get very venomous snakes in Australia. We'd have some snakes on the precinct sometimes. And some of the guys are scared. But the ones that thought that were like really, like, I'm running the unit, I'd be like, you know, the snakes come in. night.

Oh, can you just block the base of my door? Yeah, no worries. I can do that. Oh, just one other thing, Ian. You know, officers cop a lot of shit from the inmates. Some of it's granted, but some of it, a lot of it's not, obviously. And I just find it really funny how, you know, they'll give you absolute shit. Right. And then I tested, tested this out, right? Someone will give me shit and I'll go, I'm not in tomorrow.

Well, why not? You have to come in. No, I couldn't be bothered. And they get really shitty. No, no, no, you have to come into work. We don't want to lock down. It's like, buddy, you can't have it both ways. Yeah. Now, why do you decide to write a book about your experience? Okay. So. And how long after was, did you write it when you left? So that was probably a year after I left. I don't know what it was. I was just had this overwhelming, I'm not a writer, but I had this overwhelming desire to just get the story out. And I hadn't fully recovered by this stage, by the way, mentally. And I was just possessed.

And I'm just like riding day in, day out, day out, just whatever I could think of. Right? Next thing you know, I've got 20 odd thousand words. How about if I can do it like a guide for anyone that wants to work in detention center or jail or prison? This is the way it happened for me. Maybe this will help you. So it was very cathartic.

I actually recovered after I wrote that. Now, it's not a magnum opus, so it's not like a magnum. amazing work. And I purposely left it very raw as well. So, you know, there is like a beginning, middle and end to it. But essentially it's about my journey and, you know, be aware of this, that and whatever if you want to enter the field. And hopefully this assists in people making that decision.

I did write it for myself, no one else. let me just put that caveat on it. But I've had some good reviews and like my sister said, um, read your book. It's like you're talking to me. I'm like, yes,

that's what I want. So yeah, that's why I wrote it and, um, never knowing that, um, there'd be people in America reading it, which I released it,

uh, three and a half years ago. Yeah. And literally just over half of my sales are from America. So I must be tapping into something. I think there's a commonality between America and Australia. In regards to everyday life or the criminal justice system? Just like experiences in these settings, in these workplaces.

Now, listening to both American criminal justice stories and your life experience in Australia, what do you think is an overlapping thing that needs to change about the system? Well, way overrepresented. So I'll talk about Australia, first of all, overrepresentation of indigenous in Australia. And I'm imagining it's the same here in America, understaffed everywhere in the world from what I'm hearing. so what what do we need to do? My point of view, in a perfect world, you're going to have just as many workers as inmates

because then you can spend that quality time one on one with the rehabilitation. Good luck trying to teach, like where I was. Good luck trying to rehabilitate. and assist an inmate when you've got others run around, carrying on and causing mischief. You don't have that

proper time to assist them. And what's one thing, you know, that your experience working there taught you? You find out very quickly who you are, what kind of a person you are. I know that much.

They just, yeah, they need to be better occupied. They got too much time on their hands. And, you know, purpose. They need purpose. Except the chomos. I'll get in trouble for that. But anyway, bad luck.

That's my opinion. It's interesting that they call them chomos out there too. Or did you pick up that word from watching the show? Yeah, I picked it up. Oh, okay. So they don't call them chobos out there. You're funny, man. Well, Anthony, I appreciate you coming on the show today and chatting.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, it's so interesting to hear a different perspective of the criminal justice system and from a different country. Awesome. Hope it resonates. Yeah, 100%. And we'll have the link to your book in the description this episode. Beautiful. Thanks again.

Awesome.