Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was in the Sex Money Murder Gang — Then I Got 17 Years in Prison | Omar Aikens

Episode Date: April 7, 2026

Omar Aikens joins Locked In with Ian Bick to share his story of growing up in Trenton, New Jersey, getting into trouble at a young age, and eventually building a large-scale cocaine distribution operation that would land him in federal prison for over 17 years. What started as small decisions in the streets quickly escalated into running a network that moved multi-kilogram quantities of cocaine, involving couriers, shipments, and multiple people working under him before federal investigators shut everything down. In this episode, Omar breaks down how fast money, status, and the street lifestyle pulled him deeper into the game, and how it all came crashing down after a long-term investigation led to his arrest and sentencing. He also opens up about surviving time in some of the toughest federal penitentiaries in the country, including USP Big Sandy and USP Canaan, sharing the reality of prison politics, violence, and the mental battles that come with doing serious time. _____________________________________________ #PrisonStories #DrugEmpire #FederalPrison #GangLife #TrueCrimeStories #ExConvict #StreetLife #LockedInPodcast _____________________________________________ Connect with Omar Aikens: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mromaraikens/?hl=en Buy his book: https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Capital-City-Aikens-Story-ebook/dp/B0CW1F9T2L _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Violent Beginning & Early Life Story 02:00 Growing Up in Trenton, New Jersey 05:40 Troubled Childhood & First Crimes 10:10 Getting Into the Drug Game 15:15 Building a Drug Operation 20:15 Rising in the Streets: Expansion & Risk 26:30 Drug Bust, Losses & Getting Caught 32:00 Arrest, Charges & Legal System 37:00 Sentenced to 17 Years in Prison 41:00 Life in Federal Prison (Big Sandy) & Violence 49:00 Surviving Prison: Daily Life & Hustles 55:00 Gang Politics & Transfer to USP Canaan 01:03:00 Family, Loss & Long-Term Prison Impact 01:09:15 Leaving the Street Life Behind 01:15:00 Life After Prison & Reentry Struggles 01:19:00 Leaving Gangs & Giving Back 01:22:00 Redemption, Lessons & Advice _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Go to everand.com slash listen to claim yours. That's e-v-e-r-a-n-d-com slash listen. First day I got to somebody I killed. What do you think is more violent? The streets are prison? The streets you can maneuver around. But when you talk about on a dorm, when a unit, it can be real nasty. And the scariest part is you would think something going to go down when it's loud, but it really goes down when it's real quiet.

I'm still fighting them demons till today. Omar Aikins was part of the sex money murder gang and built a drug distribution operation in New Jersey that led to a 17-year federal prison sentence. In this episode, he shares how he got pulled into the streets at a young age. What led to his downfall and what it was really like surviving some of the toughest federal prisons in the country, including Big Sandy and Canaan. I was from Trenton, New Jersey, the West Trenton area. I grew up on the block, Stuyveson Avenue.

Growing up, just stealing cars, running around, doing just everything you possibly can think of that young, just bad kids do in the urban area. What would your parents do for work? So my mom wasn't working. My mom actually was on drugs. At the time, my stepfather used to work at Blake B. Long Laundry. And it was out north Trenton. So he's worked out there. But my mom was a good mother, though.

Good mother. We had the best that we can't have. So she definitely did what she can do for us. Where was your biological dad? So when Bajlod drew that, at the age, I was young. But I do remember my dad. My dad name is Edward, but they called him Samman. He was from West Trent.

into and a project Roger Gardens. So he used to stay in the building on the own front line, second, third floor front line. He was selling drugs as far as I know. Then he got hooked on drugs. So, but he used to get a lot of money at one point in time, just got hooked on the doing stuff. Did you kind of look up to him or his reputation when you were a kid? Yeah, I can say that because when people used to see me and say, man, you're just like him. You know what I mean? Your dad used to do this. He used to be this. So, you know, I mean, It always brought a smile to my face. So me, my dad was cool.

Like I said, I got a little remembrance of him. And, you know, he always, you know what I mean, came around stuff like that. But he did stop coming around when he started getting high. I guess when they start his appearance, it started affecting his appearance. I sing doing less and less. What do you think that does to a kid, you know, not necessarily growing up with his dad, but hearing his reputation of being, say, like a drug dealer in the streets or anything from other people? Well, not being around.

It affect me. I mean, I think it affects the child, but personally it affected me. But I don't think we show it as much verbally. We show it in actions, I mean, cutting up in school, cutting up in the streets and stuff like that. But not expressing it when your mother or family member asked you, like, what's going on? Why, you know, why you act like this? I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I just want to do what I want to do. But I think that was the root of the situation. Now you described yourself as a bad kid. Were you always bad? Or do you think there was one moment that turned you that way? I can't say, I can't really say, do I, I don't know when it turned. I just was bad.

I just don't, I don't got no direct date time when it happened. It just was, it happened and it just continued to happen. What do you think was the first thing you ever did that would be considered bad? Coming outside just busting bottles, trying to shoot the little street lights out with your BB gun, knocking on people with door running, getting spark plugs, breaking them and shattering people's window. Just anything that you don't supposed to do. Why do you think you're like that? Maybe just probably my father figure went around at the time.

I mean, at that moment, so I just acted out. Did you have any dreams or wants for the future at that point in time when you were a kid, say middle school or early high school? So it's funny, you ask that. So by the environment, the environment that I'm in, my dreams was just wanting to be a drug dealer. I'm one of the biggest drug dealers. That was my dream at a young age. Where do you think that came into play, that idea of being one, was it following your father's foot? or was it someone else that you looked up to?

No, on that part, I don't think it was so much following my father's footsteps, but I remember what people said about my father. I think it was just following my environment of what I saw when I come outside. Were your friends like you, or were they different? Well, we always liked the same, you know what I mean? running around, doing the same thing, getting in trouble at the same time, holding each other down. But, you know, a lot of them, some here, some not here no more,

some still in jail. I mean, some using drugs and just some just working. But, you know, my aspiration was I wanted to, I just wanted to sell drugs. That's what I wanted to do and make money. Do you think you had any genuine happy moments in your childhood as a normal kid? Yeah, I had a lot of happy moments, a lot of happy moments. I just wanted to do what I wanted to do. You know, so, and that's just what led me to the streets.

Like I said, it's nothing like just seeing. all this good stuff that you see on TV and then it's right in front of you when you come outside. And the people I seen when I came outside, I don't think they work because they're always outside. Do you remember that moment you went from just being a bad kid getting into trouble to actually doing something in the streets, maybe say dealing drugs or anything like that? Yeah, around 1998. That's when I really started getting into the streets when I came home from the youth house. I told myself, I'm never going to jail again yesterday.

fads come get me. And that was my mindset. What do you go to the youth house, youth house for? A silling cars. Did you not call for it? Yeah, I got to call selling cars, so they sent me to a boot camp. So I spent my couple months in the boot camp, came home in 98, and it just went up from there.

Do you think that kind of derailed your life, going to boot camp and getting taken out of school? No, I ain't really go to school, so. Nah, ain't a derailed my life. What I had set for me, In my mind, I just, I went with it. You know what I mean? So it wasn't like, Benzo, I got caught for selling cars.

I got sent to the boot camp. It was, everything fell. It was straight just keep going with the flow, just doing negative stuff. Just be bad. Just sell drugs. I mean, that's what I want to do. So why do you think boot camp wasn't enough to deter you? A boot camp was like child's play.

It was just a bunch of guys from all over there, all over on different walks of life, just from different parts of New Jersey, linking up, talking junk to each other, having fun. There's no consequences there. Only consequences in boot camp is PTI, just some exercise. So that really ain't nothing right there. Some exercise and then you just go back to your dorm

and then start all over the next day. Is there anything you wish, looking back on it now, that your mom could have done to prevent you from going down that path? So, no. No, honestly not. So I know a lot of people do say school, people in school, like the principal, maybe the psychiatrist, doctors, or the counselors, they say, oh, it starts from home. Some things does start from home. But in my situation, I understand that my mom, you know, was using drugs.

But that wasn't my situation where it made me go left. I went left because I chose to go left. How did you get into drug dealing after the youth house? Just my environment. I mean, doing a little bit before I left, but just my environment, just the people I hung with, the people I watched, the people. I just watched them how they sold drugs, what they did, and I just wanted to follow suit.

What do you learn? So what I learned, what part, like, what part of, what was the question? In the beginning, you know, of the early stages, what were you picking up on from other people? Oh, now one thing I picked up in an early age of hustling was watch where you hide your drugs at. Because somebody always standing somewhere or watching from afar. So when you, you know what I mean?

When you get out of that percentage, they'll still your drugs. So that's one thing I learned. You got to watch where you hide your drugs at. That's one of the main things I learned. Now, as a teenager, there was no competition or, you know, no one stepping on your toes to not. let you get into the drug game? No, when I was coming up in the era of 98, and I, you know what I mean, 98, not really.

I'm not going to say it, no. It may it was, but not in my lane. Now, it was just all of us was, like, it seemed like we were all helping each other. Now, I mean, if I, if I need some work, I'll call somebody, oh, you got this or vice versa, or you want to New York take my money with you. Something like that. It was never, man, I ain't doing up for this guy or this guy like it is today. Today is real rough today.

But back then, nah, everybody was trying to help each other get up on that ladder. So there was enough customers and enough product to go around? For sure. It was enough for sure. And the older crowd was okay with the younger crowd selling drugs? Well, you know what? We ain't never bumped heads like that. You know, sometimes the older crowd would be, the old heads would be messing around with you.

Now, get up out of here, man. You ain't be selling nothing around here, this and that. But, you know, it wasn't nothing like life-threatening. It wasn't that. What kind of drugs were you selling? Well, on my block, we're known for boat juice. They call it PCP. PCP.

Yeah, PCP. There's known for that. A little crack. And a little bit of weed, but mainly PCP. What, people are just casually selling PCP? Casually. I've never had someone on that said that before. Yeah.

Yeah, boat juice is really just like when you get out the car, you smell it. How do you do PCP? Well, when I was growing up in one point in a time on external, that's off of Stavisand. They was using Easywis with the weed, the shape, the dust on the bottle, and they was rolling it up like that. And then they was pouring the boat juice on the weed. And that's how you sell them. So it's a liquid PCP? It's a liquid PCP.

And how do you sell it to someone? Is it in like a tube? It's in a vanilla bottle. And then as I got older, well, they was doing it too. It was the weed. And then it also was the cigarettes where they dip it a little bit into the vanilla bottle. And then people were pulling it to make it rise. And when I was coming up at a younger age, I know it was going probably for $20 to $25 a cigarette.

For one cigarette. For one cigarette. And what would the cost be to get that, like the product itself? Well, I didn't know at that time what it was. But when I got older, you know, a vanilla bottle probably can go for $2.75. to $3.50 for one ounce. And how much do you buy that same vanilla bottle for?

When I start getting money? Yeah, like when you're... It's the resale value. So the resale value, you probably can sell it for $450 or you probably dip it the whole thing out. So that'd probably be like $800. So you're dipping individual sick? Yeah.

Yeah. Individual cigarettes, $800. It gets tricky because some people might dip the one cigarette, pull on it, and somebody might want two. So what they do is they'll rub the cigarette together and then put it in an M or... some little falling, serving.

So do you think this was like the original K2 before K2 became a thing? No, I don't think this was K2. No, it's not K2. This strictly just PCP. Because weren't they saying, I know in the Fed, someone was saying that they were putting PCP in the K2.

But they might have worse. I know when I was in, no, when I was in Raybrook, I seen people trip out off of the K2. Now, were cops going after PCP at this time? Did they know what to look for, what to test for? Well, I don't know about the testing,

but yeah, they didn't know what to look for. Yeah. I know a guy when I was coming up, he had got knocked off with a gallon of juice. That's just like the milk gallon. He got knocked off with a gallon of that. Like caught with it. He got caught with it.

And he went to prison. Yeah, he went to prison. Yeah. I don't know how much time he did or what the outcome was, but I definitely know he got a lot. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast,

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It's just so beautiful. On Pluto TV, free streaming of Terminator 2, Fringe Arrow, the 100 NX files may cause excitement, loss of sleep and sudden belief in extraterrestrials. No credit cards or alien encounters necessary. Pluto TV, stream now, pay never. Was it common back then in different states to get PCP? Like if you went to New York or Connecticut or any of the surrounding? ones? Well, I know, I know Camden big with it, Philly, Trenton, New York, and Connecticut. I think New Haven. I think they big on that, too. Would you use it yourself? No, no. I never did drugs in my life. I'm not

smoking and drinking nothing. Why? Why was that? I just don't like the outcome of what it looked like, so I won't do it. So why do you think at that time you were okay with selling it to people, even though you knew the effects of it? The money. Just the money trying to provide for my family. You know what I mean? And at the time, I'm not thinking. I know the effect that it costs, but I'm not looking at how much damage it's going to do to anybody or any family. But I understand what it will do, but I'm not looking at that right now.

I'm looking at the benefits of it. If you did see that bigger picture, would you have not sold drugs to begin with? Well, as of now, I see the big, back then. No, because I want to look at the bigger picture. I'm looking at my picture. Now, you said you wanted to support your family. Do you mean your mom, your stepfather? Just my family, you're my mom, my sister, brothers, you know, my daughter,

I have my nephew. So I want to support my family. I'm by any means necessary. I know it's an illegal way, but that's what I was on at that point in time. How old were you when you had your daughter? My daughter, I probably was 18 going on a number. And did you stay with the woman during those years? No, no, I wasn't said, but we took care of it.

I mean, we raised her together, though. Did your mom know you were selling drugs? Yeah, she caught me one time selling drugs. You read my book. She actually caught me, came around the corner, and it just was a bad day. Bad day for me, not her. Because she smacked me in front of everybody. But did she appreciate the money that was coming in?

She really ain't know that the money was coming. Because it wasn't really no money coming in at the time like that. What it was was, you know, if I got money, I made sure we got food in the house and stuff like that. I wasn't paying no bills at the time because, you know, I ain't had no money at the time like that. But just starting off, I always kept money in my pocket. So she didn't know where it was coming from until after that situation. How did you progress and get bigger? I just had that drive.

It just, I just stayed outside, always hustling. Day, daytime, daytime, sunrise, the sun down. I mean, I didn't go out. I ain't drink, I ain't smoke. So why everybody out partying or everybody out doing whatever they're doing, I'll probably still be on the block all day, all night. Were you working for yourself, or were you with a group of people? Well, in the beginning, I tried hustling for somebody, two people.

That didn't work out. So I told myself I would never in my life work for nobody else. So I never did it. And I made out good by myself. And did you have people under you? Well, that's one thing I'm not going to say. I never had nobody under me. I had people with me.

I'll say that. But I was doing my own thing, but I had people I grew up with. I called my bros. I mean, I may have helped them get on or whatever the case may be, but nobody never worked for me. So isn't it riskier to be more hands-on like that? So I think one would say it's riskier to be hands-on. But through my experience, I would say I'd rather be hands-on. because I think having too many people in your business are working up under you,

I think that's a, I think so many people flipping now, I think they'll bury you under the jail once everybody gets finished telling you, tell them your business, what you did, the skeletons you might got buried, stuff like that. So I think hands-on to me personally is a little better. Now, how much could you possibly move on by yourself if you're just working with yourself? All of it. Like, you can move a lot. But some fact is, the quality of the work you got is going to sell itself,

no matter if you buy yourself or not. Now, when I'm made by myself, I'm just saying I'm not having no meetings, and I'm not telling nobody, oh, this is yours, this yours, and this yours. When I'm doing it, somebody called me, they cop, if it may be my boy or not, they're coping off me. They're not, I'm not giving nobody nothing to sell for me to bring no money back to me. Okay. So are you, like, giving it out in bulk?

Yeah, I'll give it out of bulk You're not dealing with a small fish People are buying from you After a while, it's no more selling Like hand-to-hand no more for myself Like that on the corner, so Now people call me, I pull up, they pull up And that's how we close the deal

But like I said I just think it's better that way Because man, you get locked up With four or five people And you got them knowing When you're going up, who you're connected And all that, it's about like All that's about to come out

everything that they know about you, most of, nine times I'll tell you's gonna come out. How long did it take to get to that level? I'm gonna say not long because of where I started getting my work from. So it was really a, it was a jump out of nowhere. Like, to this day, when I be telling my story, a lot of people might be saying he caffin or man, he ain't, he ain't ever make it that big because a lot of them

ain't know really what my hands was called for. They made a sink little stuff or they made a sink, probably, jewelry cards or some clothes and stuff like that. But if they weren't in the field with me, they really don't know what I was doing. How much worry you making at that time? It all depends, but I go cop. I can go to Houston because I was getting my work from Houston.

So I want to go to New York. So I can go to Houston get some, I can go get five bricks come back, and a brick sold already, five keys of Coke. So you're done with the PCP at that point? No, I was still selling both. See, that's the thing. People didn't know that.

So I was selling coat and boat. So I was getting Coke up in Harlem, and I just started buying gallons, and I worked my way up to California. And the gallon was costing me. It cost me 28 in New York. When I started going to Cali, it was costing me $12,000 for a gallon of juice. You get a gallon juice for $12,000. You come back, you sell that. That's 128 ounces of ounces.

Just add 128 times $350. Matter of fact, just say $300 and add it up. you go to Texas and you get a key of coat for 17.5. You come back and you settle for 24, 24 or 5. You're talking about in between the 7 to 8,500 out of profit. You go to New York, we're going to come back, and we're going to get probably a thousand or $2,000 off of a key. And it's probably easier to hide than actual bricks.

Well, for the brick, no, when I'm talking about, I'm talking about bricks. No, but the gallon. You were talking about the gallon? The gallon? Um, yeah, you hide it outside. Everything, everything you get, you put it outside. You don't put it in no house.

So, but that's a, that's a lot of money right there. So the most, like I said, the most I ever bought before was 20 keys. But I would go to Texas, I would probably buy 5, 10, 15, come back and knock it off. And if I'm paying 17, 5 in the beginning, and then, you know, me and my connect get stronger. Now I might go to 15.5. And again, I'm still coming back at 24 or 5 or 23,000.

Then when it went up that one point in time, I think it was at like 34,000 or 35,000 a key. So you add that up, man. Math doesn't lie at all. Now, are you driving to pick up the product? Are you flying? What did that look like? Man, whichever way I got to get it back.

I'm not doing it. Oh, you have someone do it. Yeah, I'm not doing it at all. You know what I mean? So you can drive, you can melt it. You can train. There's multiple ways to get it back. It's just which way you're going to get it back.

Every time it's not going to make it back, though. You know, you might get hit. So you just got to be willing to take that risk. Now, back then, do you pay up front before it comes? Yeah, I never, yeah. So I never had a consignment. I never got nothing to me. So what I would do is I get my money down there,

get the work, wrap it up, and give it to who need to have it, and then I meet them back in Trent. So that's how I would do it. So if it gets popped, you're out the money? I'm out of it. It is what it is. Did that happen a lot to you? It happened.

I think it happened twice. Maybe three times, but what I can remember happened twice to me. So one time my Kinek called me, one of my bros just came home. So it was summertime. He just came home. We're sitting outside on the side. So I'm like, yo, no, when I, when I, when I, um, get my shit, I'm, uh, I'm hit you off, don't your truck.

You know, all right. So I get a phone call. We get a phone call. I'm like, yo, we got a problem. So I was what we got a problem about? He's like, man, we got a problem. Somebody just got him. So I'm like, got you for what?

He's like, man, 14. So I'm like, the whole thing. Like, yeah. So the story was that he wouldn't go pick up the girl that Postal bought the work to us. When he pulled up, he got out the car. And when he got the car to go in the trunk, somebody poured up on him and jumped out and robbed him. That's what the story was.

Did he believe him? At the time, I believed him, because how I was going down in Texas, so he didn't ever give me a reason not to believe him. And at the time, I knew he was strong in what he was doing. So I believed him. He ain't, you know, like I could say, he didn't give me no reason.

So I turned around to him, man, like, yo, we got a problem. I can't hit you off right now. I'm like, I just lost some work. They're like, yeah, what happened? I said, I don't know, I just lost 14. You're like, 14, why? Like, breaks. You're like, breaks, what?

Yeah, I mean, you calm as hell. So I'm like, what you gonna do? Now, I can't, I can't, I don't even know who took it. I can't get it back. I don't know what's going on. So I just told me, I got you, and I, you know what I got you. So I just got a flight left. Nobody know I left, got a flight left.

Went down there, I bought 15 more keys. Now, how old are you at this point? Probably like 24. So you're young? Yum, young. The guys that you're picking up from, are they older? No, they old, they old, he older. He, he, he, he probably was, he probably was in his 60s at the time.

And they don't care that there's a young kid coming to pick it up? Nah, so when you get a connect out of town and when they get a connect out of town purchasing, they want to keep that connect. Because, you know, so many people got the work in town. So, you know, they, they want people out of town because they, you know, they're going to probably pick a couple of points on it, whatever the case. may be. But we had a strong relationship at one point in time. And how do, when they find a connect from out of town that's a total stranger, doesn't have

anyone to vouch for them, how do they ensure you're not a cop? Intuition, I guess. I mean, I just got to go with the flow. I really don't, I really don't know that answer, but I lucked up. I found somebody at the time, like I said, he was, he was cool. I used to stay at his house. So I never stayed at the hotel when I went to. went down there he was in um he used to live uh across from the mall what more was that he just lived from the galleria mall on high rise so i used to stay in one of the apartments underneath his apartment and then man him dilling heavy he went out and bought him a nice big house for a bedroom four bathrooms something like that pool jacuzzi four car three-car garage and i had a room there had my key there

had the key the alarm everything so if i want to fly out of Houston without him being there, it was okay. Like I said, we was tight. Now, when product would get hit, say, randomly, are you worried that the cops are onto you? Like, if it doesn't make it back to New Jersey? Well, yeah, no. So, 2004, remember I said,

I got hit twice? I said, 2004, it was the young lady that the leisure Usually, he supposed he got ride with the 14th. So what happened was another time she was coming through the train station. And it's all documented. This is going to be part of my documentary, part of the part two of my book. She coming through, she got knocked off from the Amtrap police or the police, right? When she got knocked off, she holding firm.

So what I didn't know was that the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, The couple times she came, she met a police officer, Amtrak, police officer that was working in Amtrak. I'm not too sure which one. So I guess she thought they was real cool. She gets knocked off. When they get knocked off, they take her in the back. And I'm reading this from the paperwork now.

They take her in the back. She's speaking about, oh, it's cool. I know such and such. I'm guessing she's talking about the officer. Well, I think he played her and set her up and then knocked her off. So they wind up confiscating from her. She wound up for Owing. But what happened was it couldn't lead to me.

She only had just my first name, Omar. A guy named Omar, supposed to drop off to Philly. He'll pick me up or somebody picked me up and then they'll take me to a hotel. Then I fly out the next day. Are you normally the one that picks her up? I picked her up one time, and then I always had somebody else pick her up.

Yeah, that seems very risky for you to be the one to pick her up. Probably the reason. probably picked up because I just probably was in the area or just I might have had some sales or rushing whatever it was that got me there that day it just was a chance and I just took the chance how do you find her no that was his people oh that's his people yeah that was his people yeah the people I found was all legit never had no problems never got caught always made it back so did she flip on him or did she flip she flipped on both of us but so so what happened was when she flipped on both of us, they didn't let her continue, like they didn't let her continue to come

to Philly to get off the train for somebody to pick her up. So it didn't lead nowhere. She got locked up. They charged her. We wound up bailing her out because at the time we don't know she cooperated. He stood on it. He put his life on that she won't tell. She wound up telling. But we found out that when we got arrested, that she was cooperated. How long does it take from her arrest to your arrest? How much time goes on? So I can't pinpoint the time. But what I could say was 04, but I got locked up in August 29, 2005.

That's when I got locked up. So like a year later. Something about eight months to a year. So does he get picked up first? We got picked up together. Okay. So we get picked up together. And that's how we felt.

And now how we got picked up was I had a wire attack. So we had an individual from my block called my phone. When he called my phone, his phone was already tapped, and it's just linked on to my phone, and they said I was part of his crack cocaine conspiracy. That's how I was rolled up. Omar Agnes is a part of such and such and such crack cocaine conspiracy. They take my phone, and they take them two guys' phone. They picked them separate, kept them to the state, and they take my wiretap when it gets signed

and shifted over to the DEA. And then when the DA get it, by me calling other people, one of another good. a friend of mine's name Black. His phone get jammed up, and my connect phone get jammed up because I'm calling him. And this all, you think, relates back to the girl. No, no. This has not to do with the girl yet. This just has something to do with how my phone got tapped and how we go to jail.

Okay. And when we go to jail, get our discoveries, that lands on top of the discovery. So it just happened to be a coincidence that they were tapping your phone, and then they end up piecing everything together. Piecing everything together. So what I heard it was, so they didn't charge, like I said, they didn't charge me and my connect when she did get locked up and start cooperating because it really wasn't no strong evidence. She didn't have no phone numbers. So when she would, like I said, when she would get to Philly, he would call me and I would call somebody and they would pick her up.

She never directly had my phone number. Now we get locked up. Being as though, she cooperated, that's his people. They take him in the room. He cooperate and collaborates with what she said. said, now they, now our complaint goes into a conspiracy now from 2003 to 2005. So he pushed it back and he increased it. Now, why wouldn't the feds or the cops just send her back to meet the connect and follow her?

Or vice versa, or meet you and just follow the money. No, no, I said the same thing. Or the drugs, yeah. Yeah, I said the same. I was happy it didn't happen that way. But I said the same. I'm like, damn, they didn't let her go through. That's crazy.

So I don't know. I don't know what they was thinking. Maybe they was just a shot this. She was when she got caught and they caught somebody with that amount of work. And you know it's funny? So when I get the paper, they said it was nine keys of coke in there, right? But it opposed to my 18. So now I'm facing a lot of time.

So I'm telling my lawyer, like, nah, they're talking about they ready to give me, I'm 10 in life. Then they supersede me. They supersede me to 20 to life now. So they're saying that I'm going to get more time and all this. So I'm going to go to trial. So I'm saying, well, we might as well

mess the whole case up. So if they said I got all this, we want to know where the other nine keys of coke was. Somebody took the other nine keys of coat. Was it the police? I don't know who it was. I know what came, what I paid for and what postmen in that suitcase.

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Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. But my connect did cooperate on me. Now, are you in the holding center? Do they give you bail or no bail? Man, listen, let me tell you about the bail situation. I thought I was going to get bail because I'd never been locked up before. I get locked up.

I was on probation, but I get locked up. I go to my bail here and judge, like, no bail. Now I'm pinning for another one. I'm like, man, hell, I can't get bail. I see all these other guys coming out with all these, they've been downstate several times. Go back in there, no bell. So I'm like, damn.

Get back to my, get back to Miami County. Shout to Miami County, man. Some good dudes up there. Get back to Miami County, get back to my room, go upstairs, jump on my bunk, man. I just got my head down like, shit about to be real. I mean, so I never came to. back home until I was release. What was the county like in New Jersey,

Monmouth County, while you were waiting? It was all right to me. You know what I mean? A lot of bloods, a lot of crips in there, but it was all right to me. I never had no problems in there, neither. Were you gang affiliated at that point? Yeah, sex money murder.

Okay. And what is that for people that don't know? So sex money murder started from the Bronx up in New York. The founder would be Pistol Pete. It's a history of it, though, but it trick was. down to like New Jersey over the water to us.

I mean, North Jersey City, Patterson, Trenton, Camden, all the barrels down there. So Trenton came. Trenton was probably one of the strongest two. Sex Money Murder, G. Shine, nine, Trey, nine three. At the time, I think they switched over from nine through to nine. Bevin. Yeah, it was Bevin.

Yeah, it was Bevin. So, yeah, Trenton definitely was populated with a lot of gang affiliation. What's the difference between all of them? Is there any major ones or just who you're with? Well, I ain't going to say, well, I ain't going to say it's not no major one or is a major one. It's just sets. So it's just different sets in your town. Now I mean, some wrapping this one and the other one wrapping that one.

So we get along when we want to get along and we don't get along. We don't get along. Now, was the Trenton drug game violent back then? Was the Trenton? Yeah, where you were selling drugs. Was it violent? Well, yeah, it was violent. It definitely was violent.

So my part with that was, it was violent, but I wasn't in that, the violent, but I was in the getting the money. You know what I mean? So what was going on? I was aware of it. I was, you know what I knew what was going on, the moves that was being made. what was about to happen. I was aware of all that, but me personally, I stayed out of that because I was getting money, so I stayed out of the violence part best as I can.

So is it possible to operate on the level you're operating without violence? No. You have to commit violence. In so many words, yeah, you do have to. You do have to. It's just the way you've got to go about it. So that's another one of my charges. I call the first-degree manslaughter.

during this case or before or after where does that fit into the school? Well, it faddened in 2005. So before you get picked up? No. Yeah, before I get picked up. By the feds. By the feds. Exactly.

So when I got picked up by the feds and then like six months later they charged me, about six or seven months later they charged me with a murder charge. Manslaughter or a murder? Murder, you know, there's always murder and then drop down to first degree manslaughter. That's why I played out to. And this was by the state that charged you? By the state that charged. While you're fighting your Fed case.

Yeah. So when I got locked up, the feds took the drugs. It was a crazy case. So I got locked up. It was me and my connect shift over to the feds. And then my co-defendants probably was six, seven, probably seven or eight people. It was a few of about 15 people on a newspaper article, right? They all went to the state for racketeering. So I don't have a state charge for racketeering. I just got a drug charge for the feds. Now, do they make a big deal out of it because it's gang related? Oh, yeah, a real big deal out of it. They definitely wanted to hang me. You know what I mean? So I had two good lawyers, Stephen J. Teller, was my federal lawyer. And Robin K. Lloyd was my state lawyer. She's a, both of them was good attorneys.

You know what I mean? So I think that's, I know that's why I'm here today because of the work that they put in. So I don't got no complaints on what they did. I'm free. But what was scary and interesting was, was I had four co-defendants for my state charge, right, for the murder, the manslaughter. And I used to write them and tell them like, yo, chill out.

I'm going to take care of everything because I know for a fact. And I know, they know, too, they want my co-defendants. They pitted and as my co-defendants because they were the last people I called. So I'm telling like, yo, chill out. We are innocent. Let me deal with the feds first. I can't come to the state and fight that and get a result. result and then shoot back to the feds and get a result because they can run it wild and I'll

be doing two sentences. I'm trying to get it to run concurrent. Just chill out. Only one person out of the four, you know what I mean? He didn't cooperate on me. So when I get sentences, I got 24 months for the feds. I come over when I finish that and I get 18 and a half years for the state for the first degree manslaughter. They run a concurrent. I get 18 months basically for the for the manslaughter. So 204 or 2004? 204. 204.

So I got 17 over here. 17 years. And I got 18.5 years for the state. Now that was the first offer they gave you, or did you have to fight for that? For the feds? For the feds? No, they, remember, they supersede me. Man, they was trying to give me all of it.

Because I didn't want to cooperate. They took me to a profit here at one time. And they wanted me, I blacked out and they called, you know, the prosecutor of pig, know what I mean? Curse him out of here. And then, you're like, man, get him up out of it. him up out of head and, you know what I mean, it took me back downstairs. So, nah, they wanted to hang me, man.

It was one time when I was in the holding cell, the prosecutor, I never told this story. He came in there. He came and he sat next to him. I don't think I ever told the story on line. So he came in there, he sat next to me. He had the law book. He had the book with the statues in it. So he was like, yeah, man, you're facing a lot of time.

He said, man, you can help yourself. You want to go home? You want to go home? So I'm like, nah, not that way. So I'm like, well, let me know what you want to because I'm about to go home. It's almost clock out time. So I'm like, yeah, whatever.

He leave out. You know, my chest was up here. And he leave out. I'm like, damn, this is going to be a ride right here. You know what I mean? Because, you know, it's crazy when somebody got your life in their hands and they're telling you that you don't want to cooperate,

man, we're about to give you everything we can. And you don't know how far that everything that they got for you, you're going to really go until, you know what I mean, towards the end of it. So I wound up again, like I said, 24 months. I was happy with that. How long to take them to give you that kind of deal? It took, it took, like, close to three years.

And the reason it took three years, because when I first got locked up, I had the PD, the public defender, that wasn't worth nothing. Then I wrote to the judge, and then I got a pool attorney. Man, he was worth a, in the P-D.

Shit, I could have represented myself. I know I was smarter than him. I don't even know why this man had a license or anything to work as a public defender or a pool attorney for the government, man. This guy ain't know nothing, man. The only thing he knew was my name. I was in a lot of trouble,

and he was trying to get him to cooperate. He was the one that ended up in the profit hand with him. So I'm like, man, we, no, he can't be my lawyer no more than the third time. I got Stephen Jay Tullough. he wanted to be my federal attorney. What's a pooled attorney? They say it's supposed to, they say, not me,

they say it's supposed to be a step up better than the P-D. Public defender, yeah. Yeah, a pool of attorney. Nah, I don't think so. Hell, no. And the attorney that you did get, that was appointed, a court appointed?

I paid for that one. So why didn't you just pay off the rent? That's a good question. Now, let me tell you why. The reason I didn't pay for a lawyer front of the jump is because when I went in there everybody, you know,

you get on the unit, you get a lot of people talking about the feds, the court system, how it is. You don't need no lawyer. This is all right. You ain't ever been in trouble for. Man, judge going to look out for you.

You are all right. You ain't got... It's all right. I started hearing all these whispers like, man, don't stay away from him. Man, he cooperating. That's how he got. Five years.

He's been in jail all his life. He's getting five years, 60 months. So I'm like, yeah. I just start saying these guys go home, come back, sit for like two, three years in the fed, violate everything in the jail, new charge, go back home. Something like, no, hell no,

I got to get me a lawyer. So I wind up getting a lawyer. How much time does the Kineck get in the other co-defendants? Oh, man. Connect, man, connect. Just Kine. Went home probably three, four years later.

I think it's 86 months. So he did do, I mean, five years, six years? Listen, I don't want nobody to jail. We just should have sat there and fought our case. It would have been a lot better because, first of all, we're not telling on each other. Let them figure out what happened. You know what I mean? And to what I learned, too, with the feds, it's a lot of law out there that we need to learn.

I mean, if you're in that field, but we should just always learn what we're into. So it's a conspiracy and it's a buy-seller agreement. Bi-sale agreement is a lesser offense. So me and him stand there together at that table, man. We don't have no conspiracy. Bi-sale agreement, let our lawyers speak for us, man. We probably walked out there probably 10 years. But, you know, as always, that's no meaning.

That's a dream. He cooperated. I think he got to 86 months. What's it like, what's going through your head when you're signing for 204 months? I mean, I know you said you were happy to have that outcome, but that's still a lot. That's a big chunk of your life right there. Yeah.

So truth be told, man, I'm still, you know, palm sweaty. You know what I mean? When she said, you know, 24 months, I sent you to, I leaned over, I asked my lawyer, what's that? We used to just say the number. The hell you keep talking about all these months for, right? It can't about, you can't add that fast right now. You're sitting there, you're scared.

You know what I mean? You're trying to figure out stuff. So he's like, yo, that's 17 years. So, you know, I'm standing. I'm like, I'm counting on my fingers. I saw, I smile. I'm like, yeah, everything she's saying, I'm like, yes. So he's like, you know, we can still file a pill for your sense.

So I lean over time, like, listen, leave them alone. I can do the 17 years. I'm cool with that. But I really was cool with that because, you know, when you sitting in them dorms and you watch people that did stand, and you know what you got caught with physically, And then you start doing your homework in the library, and then you see somebody come in,

probably been in jail way more than you. And this guy got caught with probably, just say 10 grams of crack in a gun, and they give him 30-something years? What you complain about? You better take your time and go sit down, right? 30-something years. I watched the kid get 33 years, 10 grams in a gun,

and they get him 33 years. that's a lot of time 15 years a lot of time too that I had to do but 33 years and this man didn't get caught with nothing and I got caught with a lot of coke I just gotta just

know what I mean just pray I'll just make it out of prison where did they send you so my first spot was Big Sandy it's a pretty notorious prison yeah I went down in 2008 that's a penitentiary yeah USP Big Sandy I went down to 2008 down there

And we was on a lot A lot of stabbings, a lot of killings You know what I mean? I ain't played no part in that That ain't my role right there So it was bad What do you think is more violent The streets are prison?

I think both violent But what I would say is The streets you can maneuver around Because you don't have to be caught in that area Because you can just get up and go But when you talk about On a dorm On a unit

with a hundred and something people and you gotta see them every day and you don't just don't know what type of time somebody when they get up in the morning and come out that cell it can be real nasty it can be real nasty

and the scariest part is you would think something gonna go down when it's loud but it really go down when it's real quiet that you can feel the tension nobody making no noise there's nothing going on

then all of a sudden boom it just pop off who do you run with when you're in there So I'm always with the Jersey car I'm from Jersey But I was Muslim So you know I sat with the Muslim

I sat with Jersey Now I never had no problem Nobody's saying Yo you can't sit with With both of us Do you think the Muslim car Is one of the most powerful Groups in prison?

Yeah definitely definitely They have probably the biggest numbers Well I think D.C. got the biggest numbers But the Muslim is one of the Powerfulest people in there Now they're seeing From my experience They're pretty anti-violence

They don't entertain that? Well, if you do something to one-down, they're going to entertain it. They definitely going to come get you. But, you know, they try to remove the problem before it kicks off. And I know, I know, too, it'd be rough. I think it'd be a situation, right, when somebody come off the bus and they know they hot, meaning they snitches. And then they said, well, I'm Muslim, and then run to the Muslim.

car. What people don't know is a lot of people say, oh, man, he took his shahada because he a rat and he protected by the Muslim. Well, now, where I was at in Big Sandy and USP Canaan, when people came off that bus and they was hot, man, the Muslims just, you got to remove yourself. You're Muslim. You know what I mean? Ain't nobody, can't nobody shed your blood. Your blood is sacred. But you just can't be the fit in the bad apple in this community and make us go to war for something that you've done. So, you know, remove your. yourself and they leave. And what would happen to them?

They'd still, the Muslims would let them get attacked if it came down to that? They're going to make them leave themselves. The Muslims make sure they leave. Oh, they're not going to let. Yeah, they're not going to let nobody test their own. Okay. No, no, they just got to move. Even if they're hot, like you say they're a sex offender or something, they want

them, they'd rather have them off the yard and not on the conscience. Yeah, they definitely got to get off the yard sex offenders. You know, and you got to read that paperwork, you know what I mean? Pedophile, you got to get off the yard. So do you think you had a, you had to get off the yard. pretty safe experience than in prison? Well, yeah, I was, yeah, I said I was. I was safe in there.

I can hold my own, watch my back, but I ain't take it, I ain't take it lightly. You got to every day when you wake up, when you go to sleep, you got to be on point, you know what I mean, because your door can bus open. When the doors, when it's time for the doors, the bus open at 5.45 in the morning, you need to be up brushing your teeth

or walking out the cell, you know what I mean? Or just up, no, I mean. I never seen too many people just laying in bed when the doors opened up. How'd you learn that? Just by just watching. One of my friends was there from my block. I mean, pipping me on what's going on. Just listening, watching, just taking notes, man,

because you definitely got to protect yourself in those pains. I know a couple, I think three people, I knew they said they started out with like five years, six years. now they got life sentence because people try to rob and they wind up killing them so I just didn't want to be one of no victims right there I didn't want to get killed or I ain't want to get a life sentence making it turn my beard upside down what were some of the things you witnessed that big sandy man I witnessed the A-Bs go at it stab each other I think it was the Cali A-Bs and the Texas A-Bs go at it man it was a it was a blood bath I didn't know it was that much blood in the human body they was off that white lightning

I witnessed his, one of the blood homes getting to it with South Carolina, wound up stabbing each other up on a unit. So I wouldn't have a couple of things. I wouldn't as a guy get killed in the, from Ohio got killed in the yard. He was a power legal. He was stabbing, they were stabbing him up. He wound up getting off on him, stabbing. They were stabbing each other up.

It's two-on-one. The guard wound up shooting him, killed him right there on the yard. So I was seeing some stuff out there. And where do you, when something like that goes off, what do you do? Are you just watching or do you look the other way? First of all, you mind your business, you know what I mean? So it all depends where I'm at.

You're on the yard, you don't got no choice but to get on the ground and look. You want to sell. I mean, you're on a unit. No, you just mind your business. You know what I mean, I ain't going over there. You just pitch your back against the wall. Police going to run and tell you all, everybody locking, locking, whatever. You just back into your cell.

You don't want to turn your back. You just don't know where somebody might come out of nowhere and just probably stab. You know, it's just so much be going on in there. Do you feel like you get desensitized to the violence? Just like coming out the hood. It's just normal. You know what I mean? It's just normal.

I mean, some people say, why would you do this? You live in the urban area before? You know what I mean? You got to go through something to understand it. Like you said, you get desensitized. You're in there and you're watching people stab each other, kill each other. You got to adapt to it right down and there. You don't got no time.

You know what I mean? Like, man, you can't panic or nothing. You got to really adapt to it. Now, do you think the staff allows this to happen? I don't think so. They've been in there. I don't know. They be in their office.

I think they'd be scared. Shit, they'd be worrying about their self. You ask me. Hoping that don't nobody, you know what I mean, do nothing at all. Because there's only one staff on the unit with all of us. You got to see how, you know, you see how some federal jails are. It's the door, a hallway, and then another sliding door. So it takes a long time for, you know what I mean, help.

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Habaniero, More like Habinier Yes. Save the Everyday with Amazon. So they probably be more scared than the inmates. No, isn't it in, say, other groups in their best interest to de-escalate a situation? Because if a stabbing goes down, you guys are all put on lockdown, you're all suffering. No, you mind your business. That's between whoever getting stabbed and who doing the stabbing.

So you guys don't get mad that say the AB has caused a lockdown for two or three weeks? Nah, ain't our problem. Just going yourself. Make sure you got to be. some food. Wow. That's it. Because now if you get involved with somebody else's situation, it can lead to your situation. Now, I have seen people probably pull up on somebody trying to talk to before escalated to any violence or any, any hands being thrown. But now, you really stay out of their way. How long were you in Big Sandy for? So I came in 08 and I think

I left Big Sandy, 2000, I think 11, close to 11. What do you think is the average amount? of time someone stays in a penitentiary like that is able to last and not get into trouble? Well, I see, well, when I've met guys that have been in big sand since they opened up, I've been here since they opened and some guys stay, some guys leave. I think it's just all on if you do something, just administration period. So I don't know the back end of that, but I think it's based on administration if you're doing something, if you're a problem, you're up out of there. How did you do your time?

I know you're with the Muslims, but what was a typical thing? day like a big sandy for you? My typical day was get up in the morning, get up in the morning to work out, make something to eat, and just chill out. And then eventually it started going to going down to the gym, teaching. Oh, it was a guy named Buster, my man Buster from D.C. He was doing a crochet class. And I got in there, you know what I mean?

It was like, you know, we buy a lot of stuff from there and send it home. So he sold me a couple of items, some nice stuff. then, you turn around after I spent about 200-something hours. You want to learn how to crochet? I said, damn, you're going to ask me after I spent all my money with you. So he was on the way to leave and going to Hazleton. So he taught me how to crochet, and then I just started running a class, I mean, just killing time.

That became your hustle? Yeah, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm a hustler, so I started selling, you know what I mean, bags and stuff like he did. That was a hustle, not I mean? But, you know, some people would be laughed, like, man, what you're doing? They're doing there, and then that's the next thing to know, they come in there.

like, yo, I need this for my girl. Can you make this or can you teach me how to do it? So, you know, the world is based off what they see people do. But they see somebody that's official doing something. Eventually they'll come over there. You know what I mean? They probably make jokes a little bit, but they just probably went in on what you're doing. And they just come in there and then they learn or they just come in there buy something.

But it's all love at the end of the day. Do you think there was a lack of activities to do, you know, in these penitentiary? countries back then? I don't think so because they had the sports, they had the card games, they had poker, they had the TVs, they had just about not everything in the street, not everything the streets had, but they had enough to keep somebody occupied. You know what I mean? What was the lack of just freedom.

So, you know, sometime, man, when we caged in, man, some people just got to do something just to release something and that's how a lot of stuff happened. What about counselors and case managers? Are they helpful in that time? I don't know. I think I've seen my case manager counsel like two, three times. They'd be in the back. You know, you're knocking the door.

They don't need. They look at the door and just put in the notice. I don't know. I never really talked to him. You know what I mean? So in Big Sandy, Cain and Aubrey, but I never really talked to them. Why do you leave Big Sandy? I think I left Big Sandy because I think we was on lockdown.

They just moved me out. there. I think, I personally think it had something to do it. I think the bloods got into something. I'm not too sure, but I know I wound up in 2010. Gang land came on, but when I first came in, Big Sandy asked me about a game, and now I'm not no game member. But you got my paperwork there, and you see what I got locked up for, but no, I'm not no game member. So you lied to them? Well, I ain't lied to them. I just, shit. I played dumb like they played dumb. I mean, all my paperwork right there, y'all see my charges. You asked me what

I am. I mean, I'm not on game time, but come on, we know what it is. I'm a gang member at that point of time. So I told him no. I told him the dumb ass at the action. So I think when it came up on, I was cool, but when it came up on gangland, I think the next thing that they did, they was like, man, shit, this person, this person. It's just a multiple, multiple people got shipped out.

And I was one of the ones got shipped out. So was that first episode of gangland about yourself? Yeah, so gangland was about my set based out of Trenton. I had no parts of it. I had no knowledge of it. I just, it just came on. And that caused problems in the prison? For me, it did, yeah.

Yeah, definitely with the administration, not with the individuals. Everybody knew who I was, but not with them. Yeah, it did, because even though I'm not on game time, they don't look at it like that. They still look at it like he's part of it. So if they get into something or something going on, they want to call you to the office, and they want to, I mean,

they just want to penalize you for it. Now, did they send you another penitentiary or do you get brought down to a medium? No, they send them to Caney, USP. Oh, so that's another USP? Yeah, that's another USP. So that's in PA now. So first spot, Kentucky, second spot, Canaan.

So you're closer to home? About three hours. Okay. Kentucky's off. Yeah. I'm closer to home. Kentucky was 13 hours. Why do you think they sent you so far

to begin with. Man, listen, I said the same thing, eh. Why did y'all send me so far? And why y'all send me this penitentiary? What the hell I'm doing up in here? Man, when I tell you, when I tell you, right, when we first get off the bus, it's like 50, it's like 40-something people that's going into the holding cell.

Probably more, probably a little less. But it's a bus load, two busload. We go in there, everybody's guerrillas, everybody talking that gang-sa shit. We moved to another cell. then we start going into the back room. So when I get in the back room, so when they come out the room,

it's a one-on-one with the administration. So people coming out of the room, they go into the left. Like, a lot of people's going to the left, so I'm thinking they're just going straight to the units. My turn come. Get in there at the lawn table. You've got counselors, wardens,

sister ones, whatever. They're asking you questions. One of the questions was, are you gang-filling? No. It was a couple of homies from Jersey up there. that had a high stain. You know what these individuals, I heard of them,

you have any problem with them? Nah, I don't even know, I don't know nothing about them. You sure you ain't in no gain? I'm positive. I said, is that my folder right there? Yes, you're for us. I said, oh, okay. So I left like that.

Then before I left, they said, well, if you got any problems with anybody, handle it outside, we want no blood on our floor. So I'm like, what the hell I'm getting into? Come out, I'm about to go to the left. Now, I just turn to the left, where I see everybody else turn to it. So, see, oh, like, now you go back inside this.

So I'm like, why I can't go that way? And ain't that where the unit's at? He's like, oh, no, that's checking. You're trying to check in? So I'm like, no, hell no. So everybody that was talking that shit, that they was about that action, all I went and checked in. Every last one on.

So I said, man, what the hell? I'm now really trying to figure out, what is, like, where am I at? And it just, it's just crazy. Big Sandians is wild. I think it's always the loud mouths that are the ones that have issues with their paperwork. I mean, it's like the people that brag about money in the world, those you're usually not the ones with money. Yeah, I agree with you, man.

When I tell you, at least 20 of them went that way. And about, I know about nine of us went up. You know what I mean? It was another bus on the, and some people's in the cell. But the ones that can't meet all of them, then they went up. I mean, so I ain't never seen them again. And the whole doors, I ain't never seen them in, you know, in transfer. stuff like that.

But Big Sandy, man, we stayed locked in a lot. It was time we came out and you'll hear cold again. As soon as we come out, like, it got to the point when we get off the lockdown, run straight to the shower. Hurry up, because you just don't know what's going to happen on another unit. So that would be crazy, man. So you're on your home. You got to run to the shower because you got to have somebody go to the shower with you.

You can't go to the shower by yourself. So sometimes you make it to the shower. take one. Sometimes you don't. You got a lot back in for another three weeks, two weeks, four weeks. Even if something happens in a whole different unit, you're on lockdown. The whole jail, because they got to see the problem. They got to investigate the problem. Wow. Because, so how I sent it before to, when somebody got into it, like, they'll time it. You might be on a unit. They sell you, at such and such time, we're going to hit whoever

we beefing it, whoever on your unit, you hit them and we hit them at the same time. They can go like that. So now they're trying to get anything under control so they want to lock everybody in. Do you think you feel the safest in the penitentiary during a lockdown because you're safe in the cell that you get a good night's sleep? No, I don't matter.

No, I ain't worried about that. It don't matter to me. I'm still on, whichever way it goes. If I'm locked, then, are out. No, I mean, it is what it is. Keeping one eye open, technically? No, I'm keeping both eyes open. There ain't no one.

You got to keep both eyes open. It's serious in there. There ain't no game. you really can lose your life in they're playing around. How do you fully trust your cellmate at a place like that? You got to. You just got to. You know what I mean?

You got to trust them. You got to give them the benefit of the doubt. Then you get to learn who you're on the cell with too. You know what you get to learn their character. You get to learn by what their homie say about them, if they're not from your area. So, you know what I mean? Y'all build a bond.

Sometimes, you know what? I ain't even going to say sometimes. majority of the time you build a bigger and stronger bond with a person that you just met in jail than the ones outside on the street that you know.

And it lasts. It's people I can call that I was locked up with, go to their city, they embrace me, show me love, everything. What's a question you always ask every cellmate? What you're here for.

That's the first thing what you're here for and we'll swap paperwork. And then we just, everything just be organic, just naturally, just talking. Do you ever have anyone with bad paperwork? No, I never have nobody bad paperwork. You always got lucky?

Nah, because in the pens, they ain't going to be there. They're already going to be removed, so it ain't nothing. You got to worry about it, tell you, too. I mean, yes, they just, that good and get found out down the line, but you always get found out about. Because somebody always going to come in from your city that's going to know of you or heard of you, And then they're going to point it out like, oh, he's such a such one.

He had this going on. It shows you how small the world really is. It's real small, yes. Tell us about USB Canaan. So Canaan, when I first got the Canaan off the bus, went straight to the lockdown. They found somebody in the laundry room stabbed up, and they threw clothes on them. So when they did the count, they, you know what I mean? They wanted to find them there.

They got killed. The first day I got there, somebody got killed. Go to the lockdown. USP canning wasn't no different than Big Sandy to me. It's basically the same. You know what I mean? You get quiet. You got to be on point.

You know what I mean? He's got to watch yourself. Same thing. Everything outside. I mean, instead of inside like Big Sandy, everything outside, you got to go to the school outside. You got to go to the child hall from the outside. So it get cold. Some people don't come out.

Some people do come outside. You got to go to the gym from the outside. It's a red side and the blue side. What else about it? It's just really much the same thing. I mean, the pens are the same. Structure is the same. It's the same as cars.

You got a shot call it at a run the block. You got the TVs, that's whoever they belong to. You know what I mean? This is your TV. That's who watch it. Can't turn the white TV. Don't take nobody's stuff out the microwave. So it's really random.

same thing. Now I understand the politics. I mean, when I did go to Big Sandy, and I'm like, man, I'm like, care about that shit. But I understand why you need it because it do keep an order. It keep it structured. And if you don't have that structure, it's just people running wild. So I do respect the structure of it. What was your relationship with your daughter while you're in prison? So my relationship with my daughter was, it was hard. I can believe it was hard on her. You know what I mean? At the time, I didn't speak to her about it. But it was hard on me because, you know what I mean?

I used to being in my daughter's life. She was born in 98, April 98. I watched her come out. I always been in her life. And then take her to school, tuck her in that nighttime, just there for her. Gare everything that she wanted. And then boom, I'm gone. So that played a lot of mental games on me, too.

So that's another thing. You got to stand strong. You got to stay strong with that happen. But it's really hard to be away from the people you love, and especially your daughter. So it just was kind of hard. What's the effect do you think it had on her? Well, at the time, I didn't know.

You know, I'm in jail. We really ain't. She came and seen me I spoke to her a lot on the phone. But it's not a question I would ask, like a real deep conversation. But when I came home, we did talk. It did affect her big time. But we still got a, like, I love my daughter of death.

That's my everything. She, um, like, she love her dad. Like, we, we cool. Like, we hang out. We talk. Like, everything is organic. I ain't know it. And she didn't put a lot.

And I love my daughter so much, man. Like, you know, some kids are haters for being gone. Like, she didn't pit that strain on me. Like I said, we talked, man. Man, it's just, it's organic. What about your parents while you're in prison? So my dad passed, my stepfather, I mean, Keith Hones, he raised me. He passed away with dementia while I was locked up.

If I did get to see him, that's a strong man right there. So that's, you know what I mean, you got to feel some type of way when you're locked up. You can't do nothing. You can't help out with nothing. And then he just gone. You only get to say goodbye. You know what I mean? So that's, that's an ill feeling like you just.

You just got to deal with it when the cell, when the cell door closed, when the lights go out, and that's when you mourn. But when the cell doors open, you know, that morning stop. You got to stay on point now. So my mother, you know what I mean? My mother talked. I called her. She had come to the jail.

She really ain't due to the jail. I really ain't want her to come to the jail, but she did come to every jail I was at to see me one time. And that was about it. But, me, my mom got a good, good relationship. My mom crazy, but we got a good relationship. She's just off the hook. When you're doing 17 years, when do you start thinking about the future? So I was thinking about the future of getting money right away.

On day one. Well, I was instilling jail, I'm saying. Yeah. Oh, yeah. When I really started thinking about the crossover future switching to the right side, leaving anything alone was 2018. So how many years is that in New York? sentence.

So what's that? You're already down for like that. Five, ten, about 13. Yeah. About 13. It took you that long to really realize that you're out of the game? Yeah. Honestly, it took me that long.

Why? Why do you think so? I wanted that money. Listen. See, that's a good question. Why it took me so long to really get out the game? It's because the simple fact is, and I'm not promoting this. What I'm saying is, I'm saying speaking from the heart and speaking from experience and living it,

not just talking about living it. It's hard, and I deal with this every day to date and people don't, like, that's why I say people don't ask these type of questions. It's hard to have this and then don't have that no more. And then you come at home and you don't have it no more. So you can't go into the stores, you can't go into the car lot, you can't go to the casinos, you can't go on. vacations, like, you used to just waking up, like, I'm about to just go to Miami. I'm about to go to Vegas.

Let's just take a trip. You know what I mean? Let's go to store. Let's go spend $10, $20,000,000, let's go buy some jewelry. Let's go get a car. Let's go rent some car. Let's just go have fun without worrying about nothing. That's not easy.

It's only easy to somebody that never synced it before. And they said, man, I want to do that no more. Well, you never did it in the first place. So how can you do it no more? So that's what I made by is really, it's hard. So you really got, it's like, I'm still an addict. I'm an addict to the streets. A person that stops selling, stop doing drugs is an addict.

You know what I mean? A rehabilitating addict. They're not, just because they stop 10, 20 years, that doesn't mean they're cured. They still fighting them demons. I stopped selling drugs. I'm still fighting them demons to today. Like, every day I still ask God, man, please keep me away from selling them. cope. And that's how I say it. I don't say it no other way. So far, we're good. I'm not looking to go

back to the streets, but that's the truth. Do you think that solely comes down to money? Yeah. It's just money. It's just a rush. You know what money can do for you, what it can, you know what I mean, it opened doors and stuff like that. But I like how I'm living right now. I get the help. The younger ones come up. You know what I work at, the father's center. It's a nonprofit organization and they help young men 18 and older and returning citizens so it is I worked there but it's not I don't look at it as a job I look at as like that's a passion for me just to help them so I want to show people on the streets what we can do if if we don't go that route like you it's still a chance now I don't want to preach to nobody

and I don't want to like bade nobody don't do this I just want to show them now me talk about my experience and then like that them, I mean, lead the way to their future and their experience they're going to have to deal with because we can't come home. Well, I'm not going to come home just because I feel as though that I'm done with the streets that the other people need to be done with the streets too. It don't work like that in my eyes. They got to stop for themselves.

I stop for myself, myself only first and then for my daughter and so on family. But I had to realize what I've done, the wrong I've done. I had to point in finger at myself and nobody else. And then, you know, I was fine with it. So, 2018, I ripped, I had two connects, one from L.A. and one from Mexico. I ripped the numbers up and I threw them away. You met those connects in prison. Yeah.

And they were going to go back into selling drugs. Oh, they had some work. No, they were still selling drugs from prison. They was ready. They had the work. They had the plug. This was a, this was a plug. This was a line right here.

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Never even just experience right here. This was the next level. And you would have been okay with going back to prison at that point in time before you made up your mind to quit? Yeah, because it's coming to the game. So, yeah, I had to be okay with it. those go back out there on the streets, I was okay with it. Definitely. How long do you do in USB Canaan? So Canaan, I get there. So I get to Raybrook the end of 2012, I think.

Raybrook is a medium high. Yeah, you go down, you go to Raybrook, I think, with 30 points. There was some people with USB points. So they dropped my points and I went there. You did the rest of your time? I did the rest of my time there, y'all. Does it feel a lot different than the pen? Or are you still wire? to think. Well, it was still, it was still ran like a pen because it was stuff going on there, too. We stayed on a lot of that. It just wasn't like it wasn't a blood bath like Canaan or Big Sandy, but stuff was happening there.

So it was more, more relaxing than a pen. We weren't on lockdown as much as a pen, nowhere near, but we was on lockdown and stuff. What year do you get out of prison? 2020. November 4th, 2020, I got out of prison. How many years is that inside? And so 15 and a half. And do you have to do time in the state or they end up?

No. So when I left the state, when I left the feds, I went and did the rest of the time in the state. Okay. So that's 15 altogether with the state? All together. Yeah, all together, 15 and a half. So what was that? Only like a year you had to do in the state or two years? Yeah, like two years.

Okay. Yeah, two years, some change. And then walked out. The only reason I got out early is because I fed the criteria for the COVID in 2020. So that's why you got out of the feds early? That's why I got out. No, that's why I got out of the state early. So the feds, I was eligible for the two-point reduction.

Okay. So I gave, so I turned to 17 into, like, they gave me some time off. Okay. A couple months off, like three, probably three years off of there. But regardless of the fact, I still had to finish my time in the state. You know what I mean? So I had 18 and a half there. So I had to finish that.

And then I was eligible for, if you were a year short, you was eligible for the, the COVID relief. And then that's how I came home instead of 2021, I came home 2020. What's the biggest difference for you from going to the feds to the state? Oh, that's a whole different world. It's just...

So coming from the feds out all day and it can get real ugly at the drop of dime and then coming to the state, Southwood State prison, when I get on the unit, I'm looking around, there's nobody out.

I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm saying, I'm fucking anybody at. they all locked in. Like, we was locked in. Like, you just locked in all day. Damn there. You come out for an hour for the phone. Then the other side come out,

and then you come back out to go outside. So I had to adapt. Like, that was a big adjustment. And I just had to adjust to it. And the state ain't right. Well, no jail right. But that's like you're in the hole. You locked down all day.

When you come from somewhere, you out all day. day. You know, you got to do two counts, but you're out all day after the counts. Were the politics different? It wasn't no politics in the state. Not the one I was at. It was just a free fall. You know what I mean? And it was different. It was real different, man. So I'm just glad to be out of jail and glad to not be going back to jail. What was it like transitioning back to the world after prison? It's, you know, it's still transitioning because I don't think you'd never write when you come from jail. Like, jail do something to you. When you sit in that cell, you sit in that cell, man, if you cage in it, like you're putting a human, animal, whatever species inside something

where they can't come out, your whole mindset transformed to something different. But I'm adapting to it. I'm adapting to it very well. I may be adapting better than some. Some may be adapting better than me, but for self, I'm adapting real well. But it's still, It's still a mental thing that you got to adapt to every day too. What's something you suffer from today that came from your time in prison? Suffer from, just losing my past. Just losing it. I lost a lot of years.

But I try not to, I suffer from it, but I try not to dwell on it because I believe when you dwell on something for just a second, you lose a second of what you can gain. Because, you know what I mean, I think your mind should be somewhere else versus in the past, oh, I should have and could have. I just try to just keep moving forward. No, you ended up having an episode on Gangland? No, I ain't had one.

Oh, you never had one. No, they had one of me on there. Part of Gangland, yeah. How could they do it without having you? A public information. Really? Yeah, public information. But like I said, I can't wait until I do get the documentary

or know my book up and running. I'm a, I'm going to speak heavily on, on the game. So you didn't like how they presented you? Nah, they didn't present right. They got my name right and probably my name right, that's it. Do you think that affected work opportunities or anything like that because of how they portrayed you? No, no. It just, it's just, so the gangland jump was goofy to me.

It was just goofy because, you know, people see anything and they'll just run with it. Don't even know the story. Don't even know you personally. And that just, I mean, run with it. You had some things on game land and say that I paid to be a game member. And I've been on a few podcasts, and I spoke about it. I speak about it now. Like, people love to expose people on social media.

I'm still waiting for that person that expose me to say, you know you paid me to be a game member where they're at. I mean, so that's just a funny part right there. I mean, that's one of the funny parts right there. But like I said, people just go with anything. I mean, the problem with a lot of these shows is it just focuses on one period of time, too. Like you see, like, the vice gang stories and everything like that. It never tells about the person now.

Exactly. Now, now tell about then and now, like you said, like we speak about now. Like I said, the gang land was trash. It was public information. The information that they had, I had no idea where, where, where, they got that information from. But now we speak about stuff. Like you said, it died out.

And then now you speak about this stuff. You will never see gangland come back and retract. We did an episode on Mr. Akins and Trenton, New Jersey. But this is what Mr. Akins is doing right. Mr. Akins is doing right now. He's helping the community. He's helping the youth. You won't see that.

You know what? You won't see people speak. Too many people speak about what anybody doing good. But if anything bad, oh, I remember him. He was doing that. You know what I mean? So you write about that. Now I want to speak about the now.

How do you feel about gang life now? Like the gangs on the streets? Yeah. Or your gang, anything. I'm feeling no way. I mean, so I respect it. I think it's whatever one choose to do, that person got to deal with what they, you know what I mean, their consequences. If there's any consequences to come about.

But I care. I mean, I don't have no feelings towards it and nothing like that. I'm still cool with the people from my hood in my community whatsoever. So it's cool with me. Do you still say you're from that? No, no, I don't gain vain no more. I'm not part of no blood. I don't have no blood ties or none of that whatsoever.

It's always interesting. I feel like there's a mix of people that come on the show that have a hard time saying what you just said. Oh, that they're not part of it? Yeah, they say, oh, I'm still in, but I'm not in. or they don't cut ties, you know? No, no, no, no. Omar Agons is not part of no game ties, you know what I mean?

And I say it wherever I'm at, but I say it respectfully. Of course, you know what I mean? So, and they respect what I'm on. Like, I'm trying to help us, but I'm not trying to disrespect with nobody in saying, yo, don't mess with that because of this.

Nah, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying, if you're ready to change, you know what I mean, maybe I can help to come on over here. That's it. You know what I mean? I'm not even talking about what the gang or the people you hang around

going to get you in. I'm not speaking about none of that stuff. Only thing I would say is that we just got to watch. You got to watch everybody around. You got to watch your hood. You got to watch your brother. Like, you got to watch certain people, man, because you just don't never know

who's going to tell on you when the real stuff go down. We know everybody loves to party. We know everybody loved to have fun. And we know everybody loves to get money. But we know when, majority of 100%, 99.9.1, don't want to suffer the consequences. How do you prevent a kid from joining a gang in today's world?

You really, you can't prevent him. You can just probably show him the right side of something and hope he just don't go to that side. You know what I mean? That's just my take on because I think when you start trying personally, opinion, personal opinion. I think when you start trying to say, man, don't mess with the games. I don't mess with your hood because of these niggas and women like this, but if you come over here, it's better. I think you, you're giving mixed messages. First message, I think, the first reason I think

is mixed is because you was once part of that situation. And now you discredited in that situation. But if you ask me my situation, I'm going to explain it through my experience, but not kicking nobody back. And if you ask me, well, to any of the people that was under your hood tell them, yes, they told them. Now, I mean, I'm going to speak my experience. But I'm not going to go around kicking people backing because it is some good dudes in that game bang are just in the street. It's just that they're just not ready to lead the street. You don't, everybody's not bad because they're in the streets or in the game. That's not true.

You know what I mean? So I would just show on like what you possibly can have over here. The same thing you can have over here that you can get in a negative way. So you're selling drugs, everything you want selling drugs, cars, vacation, because that's what we do. That's what we get, do the stuff for. You can do the same thing over here being an entrepreneur or working to what you want to get. I can show you those ropes and then maybe he'll want to come over this way

without even talking about nothing negative on that side. What would you tell your younger self if you could sit across from him right now? So me, I want to tell my younger self nothing. I would do the same thing because I think if I take just a little bit out of my experience, like what happened to me, how I grew up, me getting money, having a child, going to jail and then coming home. If I take something out of there, I won't be sitting here talking to you. I won't be working where I'm working.

I won't be helping the community. That might be altered, too. So I'm just thankful that I made it out of my circumstances to be here today. That's something that I would say. I won't change nothing. Tell everyone about the book, your merch, everything you got going on in your life right now. So I'm in my book, Operation Capital City. You can get it at Amazon or you can order it from my website,

Operation CapitalCity.com. This is part one of my book. You got part two coming out. Just got to put a lot of the paperwork together. I'm going to have some. I do got to get some merch. I mean, Operation Capersity, my sweatsuits and t-shirts. Start getting more into that.

But right now, I'm focusing on part two of the book and the documentary. So that's what I'm focusing on. Representing, New Jersey. That's where I'm from. I'm representing Trenton, to the death of me. I mean, and all in New Jersey for the real world. New Jersey for the real right ones that stand up. I mean, like I said, it's a lot of people that stand up.

It's a lot of people I dig doing good. And there's a lot of people that want to change. So, you know what I mean? If you want to change, man, just, you know, it do take time. It ain't like you just wake up and just change. That's for sure. But just believe in yourself, you know what I mean? When we learn that we lead us with themselves, I mean, we do a lot more for ourselves.

And then, you know, when we understand that being a leader and not continue to be what the streets want us to be, when we shift over to the right side, a lot of our homies are shift over with us because they just probably, they really, they probably just waiting for that one person to make that positive move so they can follow, but they just don't know how. And then sometimes, you know, we'll be scared. I'm going to say we too. We'll be scared to make that move because we weren't about what the streets are from. friends are thinking about us.

Now what I mean? So I just say, man, if you want to change, now what I mean, change and just follow your future. Well, Omar, I appreciate you coming on the show today, man. Yeah,

I appreciate you having me, man. Nice setup, nice show, man. This is dope right here. So thanks for having me again. I'm sure we'll be seeing you around.