Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was on America's Most Wanted at 19 — Then Survived 20 Years Inside New York's Worst Prisons | Kevin "Fresh" Townsend

Episode Date: September 27, 2026

Kevin "Fresh" Townsend grew up in Brooklyn with his father in prison and his mother raising him on her own. He took to the streets at a young age, dropped out of high school, became involved with gangs, and started dealing drugs. Then, at just 19 years old, he landed on America's Most Wanted for a murder he says he did not commit. After two trials, Kevin was convicted and sentenced to 20 years to life in New York state prison. Over the next two decades, he ran with the Bloods, navigated Rikers Island, and survived some of New York's toughest maximum-security prisons. After serving 20 years, Kevin finally walked free — just two weeks before sitting down to record this episode. _____________________________________________ Become an EXCLUSIVE Locked In: After Hours Member & recieve a FREE merch box: https://lockedin.supportingcast.fm/ _____________________________________________ Connect with Kevin "Fresh" Townsend: Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DPSW499L?lv=shuf&channelId=500&plpRedirect=mhFallback Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/townsendrealm/ _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction to Kevin 00:50 Growing Up in Brooklyn 02:10 The Impact of Having a Father in Prison 03:03 Street Lessons and Gang Life 03:57 Gambling and the Addiction to Money 06:10 The Routine of Gang Life 08:12 Staying Away from Selling Drugs 10:14 Family Love and His Father's Advice 12:56 Reading Books and Dreaming of a Better Life 14:27 A History of Violence and Fear 17:35 Charged with Murder 25:53 Arrest and Interrogation 27:31 Lack of Evidence and False Testimony 30:19 First Day at Rikers and the Start of Prison Life 34:00 First Trial and Mistrial 37:12 Convicted at the Second Trial 40:01 Sentencing and a 20-Year Prison Sentence 44:37 Failed Appeals and Losing Hope 48:53 Sent Upstate to Prison 51:18 Five Points and Adjusting to a New Life 54:00 Prison Rules and Survival Tactics 57:19 Solitary Confinement and Mental Struggles 59:49 Transfers Between Prisons and Different Experiences 01:04:18 Relationships with Other Inmates and Unexpected Events 01:07:57 Back in Solitary and Working on Himself 01:12:54 Released from Prison and Reuniting with Family 01:15:19 Adjusting to Life on the Outside 01:18:50 New Goals and Hope for the Future 01:23:22 Marriage and Relationship Struggles 01:26:29 Lessons from Prison and Advice for Young People _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

I learned for my first day in prison that violence rule, so I watched, I sit there and watched, I see that you got people asking to get on the phone, you got to ask to watch TV, you got to ask to get a chair. They're taking your chicken, they're taking your frosties, they're taking your muffins. I'm not going to be a sheep, so off day one, I just started fighting. That's Kevin Fresh Townsend. At just 19 years old, he ended up on America's Most Wanted for a murder he says he didn't commit. After two trials, he was convicted and sentenced to 20 years to life, sending him through some of New York's toughest, maximum security prisons for the next two decades. Just a few weeks ago, he finally walked out.

Today, he's telling the story of how he ended up there, what it took to survive 20 years inside, and what freedom feels like after losing most of his adult life. Where'd you grow up fresh? Best die of Brooklyn, New York. Most of my life, we was a short life when I was in the street, so for my first 19 years, that's where I was at. What was your childhood, like early childhood?

My mom, single mom, my father. did about 10 years in prison from maybe when I was like five to about 15, almost 16 when he came home. But by the time he came home, I was already in the street. It was like kind of too late. A lot of, um, he told me a lot of his friends told me your son's out here wild and going crazy, man. You got to talk to him. But when he came home, he told me, he said, I know you're ready in the streets. I can't really tell you to stop getting money, man.

Just be safe. Did your mom tell you that he was in prison? They used to tell me he was down. South a lot. Your father's down south. So I want to ask him, you coming to my basketball game. I got a championship. He'd like, yeah, I'm going to try to make it. I'm going to try to make it. I'm going to try to see him on a visit. I realized he was in prison. He always tried, though, from prison. He always sent us gifts and stuff like that's my boy, man, man, that's my man. You guys were talking on the phone too as a kid. Yeah, we were talking on the phone. I used to be angry sometimes. I used to be angry sometimes. Like, oh, man, I got a stand-out, so I want to go outside. So sometimes I kind of maybe took it out on him. But that's my man, man. So we had a good conversation when I was younger. Do you think he tried to be a parent when he was in prison?

I mean, he tried the best he can be from prison. It's hard to be a parent when you're in prison. I have a brother also in a sister, so my brother's younger than me. So it was hard. It was hard for him to actually parent us or for us to listen to him from prison. You know, like I said, I was my mom, a single mom. So she couldn't really control us. Do you think it would have been better off not knowing he was in prison and having no communication with him?

Nah, I feel like you need your father. Kids need their father. That's, like, important in our community. And that's one of the reasons. I have read a stat that, like, 70% of people in prison grew up in a father's household. So I kind of feel like it's a revolving door. So without your father around it, nobody really to guide you, you know. Now, why wasn't seeing your dad in prison a deterrent for you to avoid the streets?

Everybody I know was in prison. All my friends, everybody I grew up with, everybody, all the older guys, I see them go to prison, come on and look the cool when they came on. Everybody showed them love. I didn't care. Being my age at the time, I ran around looking for stuff to do. I ain't care about nobody. I didn't probably care about myself at that time. Did your mom try to keep you away from the streets?

Of course. My mom was on me. I used to be a little kid. I'd be 12. years old. I used to be in all the gambling spots. Shooting dice. Taking my school clothes money, go shoot dice with it, lose it. My mama asked me, wait, um, your school

clothes. I'm going to go get it tomorrow. She's like, tomorrow. School start tomorrow. I'm like, yeah, I'm going to get it tomorrow. She gambled it again. Yeah, I gambled it. She's coming knocking on a gambling spot doors. Get my son out of there. Get my son out of there. So my mom tried, man, but I was out there, man.

How do you get roped up in that at such a young age? I don't know. I've been gambling since I was five, six years old playing cards. I just gamble for candy. I play pitty pack poker for nine later's. I was just, I don't know. That's just gambler, man. What was it about gambling that you

think you were attracted to? The drill. The money. Yeah, just the thrill. The money. I just wanted money. I just like money for long age. I used to make wallets when I was a kid. Three, four years old, I'm making wallace out of paper. Making people give me money so I could pin in my wallet. I was addicted to the money.

We used to do it out of duct tape. Make the wallets out of duct tape. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Where were you guys playing four, five, six for dice? Yeah, yeah, that's what they call Ceylo. Yeah, I used to play Ceyl all the time. We do that in prison.

Yeah. That's how I learned how to play. Oh, for real? Yeah. Yeah, we used to play in prison too. We made the dice with soap or we used the medicine dives, make into dice, play and play dice like that all the time. How do you get the lettering on it?

A pin. Take a pin. Write the numbers on it, the circles on it with a pin, and we're ready to go. Now, when you're in the streets, are you around gangs at all, or were you just, is it just a neighborhood, your block? What was it like? Everything gangs, everybody gangs. I grew up, my side, everybody was gang members. So it was like a right to pass when you come up.

It's just, you actually might not have to join the gang. You just, you just with the gang, so you're part of the gang. So I grew up in an era where everybody was gang-banging. What gangs were around? Bloods, Crips, mostly bluds and crips in my community. Mostly bludges, though. And what year was this? What time frame?

I quote, my case happened in 2006. So from my teenage years in the late 90s to 2006, to I went to prison. What do you think of the gangs yourself? It was regular. I didn't even look at it in no kind of way. It's like a family. It's like everybody family, everybody cool. We just together, everybody grouped up.

It wasn't looked at like something bad or, you know, people actually committing crimes. It was just a group of people that just, whatever you call yourself, I didn't look at it like nothing bad. How did you look at yourself as a kid? I thought I was him, man. I was a kid. I would think I was the flyest person my neighbor as a kid.

I always had money. I play sports. I thought, I just think I was everything. I didn't know what I was actually doing, like in the community, like probably maybe terrorizing community, like me and all my friends. I just thought I was that guy, all the girls, getting money as a young age. What did you want out of life? Where did you see yourself going?

I didn't actually see myself going nowhere. It's like kind of honestly, I kind of felt like I probably knew I was going to prison because everybody I know went to prison. That's like I write the passage. You know, the people older than me when the prison came on, people older than when the prison came on. I didn't even, I just wanted to be a big Trump drug dealer or, or, you know, No, that's really it. I didn't really see myself being anything. What were the people around you going to prison for?

Everything. Murder, robberies, salts, gun charges, drugs, everything. I was like one of them, maybe one of the last ones, all my friends to go to prison. I just ended up getting the most time out of everybody. Did you end up making it through high school? Nah, maybe 10th, 11th grade, I dropped out. I used to still go to school, but maybe go to school just to where a new school. clothes for a couple hours and leave and never really stayed in school the whole day. I'm in school selling weed, you know.

Why do you think your mom couldn't control you? I'm from Gates. They call Grammy Gates, like, in the style. So it's just so much going on, you know, the style people invest. I think we're the best, everything ever. So there's so much going on. I mean, felt like it was so much going on. I didn't want to go to school.

My mom, she's going to work, going to school, college, taking kid, three kids. So she, you know, doing the own thing, not here trying to know, take care of us, provide for us. And I'm in the streets just running crazy. What were some of the things you were doing during that time frame before you got into trouble with your case? I used to play basketball a lot. I sell, I sold a lot of drugs, gamble every day, hang out, really do enough things. What kind of drugs were you selling? weed, crack, coke, dope, whatever. I'd sell anything at that time.

And would you use it yourself? Nah, I never used drugs. Never been a drink. Never been a smoker. Never, never been drunk. Never, I don't even know I feel to be high. Why'd you avoid that? I'm just seeing everybody else growing up getting high.

I seen, you know, everybody was getting drunk. My friends, when we first started coming outside, everybody started smoking, I see how they take the Dutch, lick it, roll it, everybody putting in their mouth. And I just, I'm not paying out of my mouth. I was a little kid, use a little kid to fire killer germs. I'm like, no, I'm a germ for it. I'm not smoking, so that's probably what's the one of the main things that made me never smoke,

which is I'm glad now. That's so funny. Yeah, I've seen people who sell all these stuff in prison. I seen a dude sell their mattress for drugs. So I'm like, if I was smoking, what I've been like that, you know, so I'm glad I never smoked. Why do you think you're okay with selling it, though, knowing the effects it had on people? I honestly didn't care, man.

I just wanted money. I just wanted money, man. I didn't care what it did the people. I ain't, you know, watching all the movies and stuff like that. I maybe wanted to be like them. I ain't think about the effects I had on people at the time. If someone had told you when you were a kid, maybe 12 or 13, that the road you were going down was going to end in a lengthy prison sentence,

would you still have continued doing it? Yeah, most likely. I didn't care about nothing. I didn't care about myself. I didn't think I would ever get this much time in prison, but, I mean, I kind of knew I would end up in prison one day. But I didn't care. I wouldn't ever listen to nobody.

I think I was a person who had to learn from my own mistakes. I wasn't knowledgeable enough to see somebody else go down that path and just, oh, no, I can't do what he did. I just, I didn't care. There was no one other than your mother that wanted something better for you. Yeah, I had my grandmothers, both of my grandmothers. I had aunts, uncles. They was there every day for me, made sure we had everything. I didn't actually have to sell drugs.

They made sure we had everything. I just wanted to be down, do it. day what I was doing and get more money. Now, what happens when your dad gets out of prison? What was your guy's relationship like? My father was, when he came out of prison, you know, he's there for us now. Like, he provided for us. He did everything for us. Every day, like, he hold me down, man. He made sure I was right.

I said, he told me, like, you know, don't, don't shoot nobody. Like, I heard you out here doing crazy and wilding and stuff like that. I don't want you shoot nobody. He said, if you sell drugs, I can't tell you not to because you already addicted to. the money. So I'm not going to tell you you can't get no money now with just no shooting people. Do you think that was bad advice he gave you? In a way, I mean, I wouldn't have listened to him if he told me to stop anyway, but I think that he, in his way, because my father was from the streets too. You know, he still was a young man as well when he came from prison and just mid to late 30s.

So in a way, he's trying to guide me and help me and keep me out of trouble while not trying to tell me I can't do this and can't do that. because you know I wouldn't ever listen anyway because he did the same thing growing up. So he probably like, man, I'm just try to keep him not murdering nobody, you know. What do you think would have took you or taken you to stop? Would it be having to physically get removed from that environment?

I probably would have found my way back, but I do think that sometimes moving you from that environment will help change the person you are. I think being in the environments are a big, a big issue when it come to the way we were. Our environment played a big part.

We have nothing to do. They take PAL and stuff like that. We're just running around me and bad. Like, what are we going to do? We got nothing going on. Now, how does one even navigate that when they're born into it? I mean, when I was younger,

they used to have like PAL. We'd go play basketball and stuff like that. Baseball, football. Once they start taking that, it's like what we're going to do what we're going to go we need the hood we're in the projects we're running around we got nothing to do so they kind of took it from us you know and that's all you know essentially yeah that's that's that's that's all we know we don't know on the else we never been nowhere we never we're not taking vacations we never going out the country I have never

been out the country before no um so now hopefully my pro was actually let me go some places but I never been nowhere so we don't know nothing else you also probably had nothing to hair or two, too, because there was no social media or anything. I guess there was books, if you looked at books or magazines, like to show that there was a better life outside of what you were living? Yeah, crazy, because I used to read books all the time. I was sit in front of my building and sell drugs on the crate and read a book, even though they was only her books at the time. So those were the stories that I knew what I'd seen, but I used to read them kind of books outside, and that's what I wanted to emulate. So it seems like a part of you

wanted more. Yeah, I always wanted more. I wanted to be rich. I wanted to help my family with my family out the hood. That was like my goal. That's what I was thinking about. But illegally, you know, by drugs, being a kingpin. Who do you look up to at that point in time? Was there a famous gangster or anything? Just the oldest dudes in my community that was getting money.

They had nice cars. They had all the girls. I used to want to get stuff from them. Actually, one of them, I looked at the two end up giving me my first pack. It gave me $100 worth of weed. It told me to give them back $70, keep $30. I ended up dead in them on the whole. whole thing. I'm like, you ain't give me nothing. He was mad. I'm like, yo, I gave it to you. I'm like,

you ain't give me nothing for you. So he was mad. He ain't do nothing to me, though. He didn't just give me nothing else. Was the drug game violent back then in your time? Yeah, of course. You couldn't just come outside. Like, you know, now you could just see people sitting on the corner hustling. You couldn't do that before. You had to be prepared. So I say, like, you better have your work and your gun, you know? You better have both of them on you. You can't just come over here and hustle. Just not on my side. You're going to take that up somewhere else. How did you learn that it was violent and dangerous? I seen it.

I didn't see my first murders when I was like nine years old, you know, 10 years old, I seen people dead. So I seen what it could do. I seen people sell drugs and a person take their money right there on the spot. So I seen how violent it can get. What's it like to see someone dead in front of you at that age? Yeah, at that age, I was just fabric assing my grandmother. We was looking out the window and she tried to get me to move from the window.

I'm like, I want to see. I want to see. I see somebody, you know, dead in front of my building. Yeah, I was just like, wow, you know, like, this is what it is out here. Now, why doesn't that register in your mind at that time to say, you know, this is what could happen, I'm not going to do this? At that age, you know, I'm thinking like that age, you don't even thinking like that's going to be you or you're going to think you're going to be in jail for murder or you're going to have to murder somebody. You know, I wasn't thinking about that at that age. And like I said, when I got a load, I didn't even care.

I used to run around looking for problems. I'm running around checking for it. How old are you when you caught your case? My case, I was 19 years old. And where were you at in your life at that point? Were you still living at home? My moms had moved to Queens. Me and my brother was staying in Brooklyn by herself.

My brother was maybe 16 and 17 at the time. So we were just staying in Brooklyn. We were running around in the streets every day. I'm breaking down. I'm going out of six in the morning. Standing outside hustling with a gun. me. Yeah, I didn't even, I was at a stage where I didn't care. I didn't care about nobody. I didn't even care about myself. And you were paying the rent by yourself. I was paying the rent.

I was paying the rent. My mom's and father was, in the beginning, paying the rent for us. But after that, I just paid it around my, it's not that much. I got it. Do you think that was a lot of responsibility put on you at that age to watch your brother? Not really, because that's what I wanted. I didn't want to be on my mom's shoes. I remember one time when I was living my mother and I was selling crack. A Feen came and knocked on my mother door looking for me. So I'm like, who is it? He like, yo, let me get, um, let me get the $10.

So my mother start cursing me out. You got fucking fiends coming to this fucking house. What you could do? So I'm mad. I go outside. I see him. I bust him in the head with a bottle. I shoot at him.

Hit him in head with the garbage. He runs down the block. Maybe like 15 minutes later he knocks on the door again. For the same thing, I'm like, oh, my God. I didn't really want to shoot him. I just wanted him not to knock on my mother's door. So my mother kicked me out. Get out.

Take all your stuff and get out. You got crack heads knocking on my door. Are you a fan of this podcast and want some free Locked In merch? You guys are used to seeing me sitting in this chair, interviewing the guests and hearing the stories you've come to love. But what you don't see is everything that happens outside of this studio. There is a whole life happening around Locked In that you all haven't seen before. Until now, I'm excited to announce that I've partnered with Supporting Cast to bring our audience exclusive bonus content that you've all been asking for. and what we're offering, you're all going to be super excited about.

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on the screen. We all know I couldn't have done this show without you, the listeners, and I didn't want to launch a membership page until I can come up with content that would actually be fun and show a different side of me that you guys don't get already on the podcast. I'm excited. This content's going to be super fun to make. Come be a part of it. So tell us about the case that ends up putting you in prison.

Yeah, 19 years old. You know, we have block-to-block problems. I'm at a basketball games. Next thing, you know, I'm on a run. They're looking for me for a murder. Somebody tells me they get locked up, like, you know, the police asks about you for a murder. So I'm like, I don't know what they're talking about.

So next thing you know, they're looking for me. I'm on America's Most Wanted. I get arrested a couple months later. Where do you go on the run to? Nowhere. Same community, same neighborhoods. And they put you on America's Most Wanted for that. Would they give up on looking for you or something?

I mean, after like maybe the first two months, I guess they just like, you know, we can't find them. I guess I could actually stay in my apartment. They never even came to my house. So at the first couple of months They just picked me on America's Most Wanted And the rest of me basically Why were they after you for this murder Who pins this on you?

A lot of people that in my community When you get arrested, you go in a precinct They ask you you want to get out of jail free car You tell them about something They let you out So maybe a couple people went in the precinct They wanted to get out of jail For their robberies, they told them that I was there

One dude actually told me the police showed him a picture of me and said, yo, you was there and he did it. And he said he wasn't even there. But the police let him out of jail for his robbery. So he wrote a statement and pointed me out. Did you have an alibi? Alibi, no. I don't even know, like, what you can say.

So if somebody was to say, where was you on May 14, 2023? You're not really probably going to know. You know, you're not going to probably remember where you was at unless it was like a special day in your life. I didn't know. Now, you weren't there at all. No, I wasn't there at all. So how did you feel when you got word that the cops are looking for you for a murder? Why don't you just go and explain your side of the story?

I've seen people go to jail. I watched one of my friends get arrested for a robbery that one of my other friends committed. He wasn't even there. He just came out the building and they arrested him for the robbery. My other friend went in the precinct said it wasn't him. It was like, yeah, we sorted out and ended up north for four years. At that time when I was maybe like 15, 16, four years seemed like life. So I wasn't walking in no precinct because I know that has a chance.

never going to come out, guilty or innocent. They don't care about that. Did you know the guy that got killed? I didn't know him. And what were the streets saying at that time about the killing? At that time, when it happened, the streets wasn't saying anything to me. And then later on, I was already going. I was on the run, so I wasn't really paying attention to what anybody was saying.

I wasn't on no phones. I wasn't coming around. I was just staying out. Did you get to talk to your mom before you went on the run? Nah, I didn't call my mother. I felt bad because I'm like, oh, man, my mother's going to be worried about me and let my mother down. My mother's like a warrior. Like, she's loving.

She's on my body. She's checking for her. So I was like, oh, man, my mother's going to be down. That's the only thing I thought about the most. What about your father? My father was like, you know, disappointed in stress. And he told me, he's like, oh, man, man, man, I love you, man. Like, damn.

I know, he was hurt. It's my first time ever seen my father hurt. I always seen my father like, you know, the tough one. It's my first time seeing him hurt. Do you wish you handled it differently looking back on it? Maybe got a lawyer, turned yourself in. I actually did get a lawyer before I went in. So I just didn't want to really actually turn myself in,

but I did get a lawyer before I went in. And he told me, like, we're going to set ourselves up to get turned in and stuff like that. And before that happened, I end up getting arrested. So now what are you doing over the course of those two months? standing in hotels, going to McDonald's depressed, stressed out, can't sleep. You know, every time you hear a helicopter, police call you think they're coming for you. Every time you hear a dog, you think the door while they get kicked in. Yeah, I was just down.

I sometimes felt like a weight was off my shoulder when I got arrested that I didn't have to feel like that anymore. That was like part of the most depressing part of my life. How did you have the money for the hotels or just even to survive? I still had money from when I was selling drugs. So I had money on me. I had people send me money. I was still using my own money at the time. And were you associating with the same people you were around before,

or did you distance yourself from them? I distanced myself from them. But, no, I still got to see them once in a while. But I was, like, in my age, so nobody really seen me. Now, did you think that you were just going to live the rest of your life on the run? I didn't think I would live my left or a run, but I felt like I had to. like I got to. I can't go in the precinct and never come back out. So I felt like I had to, you know.

Did you think about leaving the state? I did leave the state. I came back. You know, I, that's my comfort zone. I didn't know nothing else. This is like, you know, where I was comfortable at. So I left, I'm coming back. Everybody was, oh, you come back here for? I'm like, you know, I wanted to see people. I wanted to see what's up. I want to see what going on. Now, did they actually have a worn out for your arrest or did they just want to talk? talk to you. They didn't have a warrant off my arrest. They just said they wanted to talk to me about a murder. So why even run at that point? But I wasn't a priesting even when they wanted to talk to me. I didn't make a statement and I still end up doing 20 years. Wow. So what happens with

the lawyer then? When you're on the run for the two months, who's this lawyer you find? Is he a public defender or you pay one? No. I was, so I was just calling around lawyers, letting them know that they look up for me and stuff like that. So I found a lawyer that probably was like, no. somebody told me, yo, he's a good lawyer, he's a good lawyer. He's going to go on with you. So he told me, when you go in that precinct, if I'm not there, don't make no statements. You ain't do nothing. Don't say anything.

I don't care if you say you did it. Don't say you didn't do it. So I didn't go. I just ain't say nothing. Did he believe you that you didn't do it? He ain't, I mean, lawyers don't care. If you did it, you didn't do it. They don't want their money.

They don't care. I don't even think they asked if you did it if you didn't do it. Did you find out more about the victim while you were on the run? Did you look into anything? No, not really. So now how do the cops find you before you're able to turn yourself in? I was using different cab services, so a cab driver turned me in. He told him he dropped me off somewhere, and they came and bumressed the crib,

maybe like at nighttime, late at night. He's like, yo, I know that guy, dropped them off over here, and I was using kind of the same cab service all the time. And that's how they got me. What, do you see your mugshot? Yeah, I was in America's Most Wanted, so my mugshot was everywhere. It was posted up, wanted posters and stuff like that. So, yeah, he definitely

He gave me up. How'd that feel to be on America's most wanted? Kind of double that sword because in one way, you know, some people are big in, oh, my man, fresh. I seen him on America's most wanted. And now you're like, now it was real because everywhere you can't go nowhere.

You got to have a hoodie on. You go anywhere. It wasn't shiasty masses at this time. So now you got to go over with a hoodie. You're like, I can't let nobody see me. Everybody watch this. So I just not want to be seen. So now it's like stressful.

I'm really in a hotel ordering food every day. Why'd they call you fresh? Dress. I was dressing. I was like a big dresser. When I was young, man, I just always was good at dressing. That's what I do. Like, you know, I'm a fresh person.

So describe when they arrest you. Tell us that. They kicked in the door, ran in the room, threw me in the floor, fake jump me. I was mad at the time. I told the officer, I said, when I get out of jail, I don't care how much time you do I'm going to validate you. He's like, oh, you said you're going to violate me. He said, jumped me again. I'm in the precinct so mad.

I can't wait to get out so I could get him. So I was thinking about him for years. I can't wait to see him, you know. Until I got a little older. And I'm like, man, I don't want to see him. I only want to see him. So you get to the precinct and I'm assuming detectives meet with you? Yeah, they sent about six, seven to Texas,

and they sent two to Texas. They really played a good cop bad cop. The first two to Texas was the bad cops. They told me they're going to beat me up. They're going to valet me. So I think like I'm sleeping on them. I put my head on tape. I figure like I'm asleep.

They get mad and bang my head on tape. What are you trying to go to sleep on us? They sent the good cops in their necks with slices of pizza, soda. I was scared to drink the soda because I'm used to watching the movies where they take your DNA from the soda. So I'm lying drinking the soda. I ain't touching nothing. They sent two more in there acting like the first 48 talking to me. I ain't go for none of it.

Now, you're not physically charged yet? I'm not physically charged now. I'm just sitting in the precincts. So what are they saying to you evidence-wise? Are they showing you photos? How do they tie you to it? They just telling me, yo, man, just tell us your side of the story. that way you know you could protect yourself because you don't just gonna go on you

anybody else did it just tell us who did it if anybody else did tell us who was there i'm just faking like i'm sleeping and put my head on the table i'm not even paying attention to them i don't seen first 48 so many times i've seen the game i'm all this the same game they play it's real that they really doing this do you think they had their minds made up already that you were the guilty one that there's no other suspect or explanation yeah of course even though even though um somebody else gave up an alternate suspect they didn't care about that Once a person say you did it, you did it. It don't matter if you did it now.

Like I said, the person who said I did it, he was arrested for their own crimes. He got arrested for robberies. Every time he going to prison, he knew about a murder. He was at a murder scene. So somebody's going to jail. He'd go free. He ain't never been upstate. He got more felonies than me.

You know, so I already knew that I was going to jail. When did they give an alternate suspect while you were on the run? I didn't notice when it had an alternate suspect until after I went off of law for a few years already. I didn't even know it was an alternate suspect until I get my paperwork. And the dude that did that, he wrote an affidavit to the district attorney and told him that, you know, he lied. He wasn't even there that he just wanted to save himself, whatever, he found guard, and that he said somebody else did it the first time before they told him to say, I did it. You know, you see that a lot about people kind of recanting their statements after years and finding God. And it must weigh on someone heavy to send someone to prison for a long period of time.

wrongly. I don't even know how that feel because I couldn't imagine doing that. I'd rather take it and hold it down myself before since I was in prison. But most people don't feel like that I see now on that it's just, I came home. It's just regular. Like, people don't even care. They're still hanging with the dudes that I did that to people. A dude out there now, you get a money, you could tell them whatever you want.

They ain't going to stop, you know, chilling with you. How long did the detectives question you for? Probably like 12, 14 hours. No lawyer. No lawyer. They didn't even let me call or let me get on the phone. I told them from off the rip. I got a lawyer.

I want to call my lawyer. They're like, yeah, we're going to call them. They ain't called nobody. They're just rambling and rambling. And you don't answer a thing. And I know. They answer nothing. I don't say nothing to them.

I ignored them the whole time. So what happens after they're done? After the 14 hours? They finger primed me. They told me, yo, we charging you with murder. They pin me in a lineup first. Actually, I got pointed out of the lineup. They fingered me.

They told me they charged me, take me to send you bookings. Who pointed you out in the lineup? You know, at the time, they behind the glass, so you actually don't know who do it. They just go get a couple of dudes from the shelter. A couple of dudes I don't ever look nothing like you. At the time I'm 19, I probably look 13. They go get a couple of dudes from the shelter in Atlantic,

probably 34 years old, and they just pick me in the lineup. I get pointed out when you fingerprint me, take me to send you booking. And they pay those guys, right? $10 or something like that. No, that's a lot for them, I guess. And who points you out? Do you find out later on?

Yeah, it was one of the same dudes that made a statement on me. And what did he have to benefit? Just get out of jail free card. Get out of jail free card. That's the biggest benefit you could do. He's been, he's been jam, you know. So once you get a roster, where do you go? I went to send you bookings.

When I got this in your bookings, last I was all on a newspaper. I was all in the news. So they already knew me. They pitted me in like, oh, yeah, you're on the news. You go. So I didn't have to really, you know, wait through the beginning process like everybody else. They just kind of like rush me through. And when does your lawyer come?

But I'm in situ bookings. And what does he say to you? He said, you know, you're going to be sitting up for a little while. I'm going to got to get the pick work. See what's going on. All I got is a diamond right now. Don't say nothing to nobody in jail. They always pit snitches in the jail to try to get information out of you.

So that's what he told me. There was no question of getting bail. We tried to get bail, but, you know, a lot of times you got a murder charge. They didn't give me no bail out of New York. How do you feel sitting in that cell after that lawyer says that to you? In a way, it's kind of crazy, but I felt a little relieved that, you know, I got a lawyer to help me a good lawyer. I felt a little relieved that I'm not on a run. I'm not stressed out no more.

But I also felt like, damn, now it's getting real. It's my first time I've been in prison. I've never been to Rikers Island at this time. I've been to since you booking the free time. This is my first time actually going to Rikers Island. So they send you to Rikers to say. They send me to Rikers Island. I get in the Pins.

They send the security of the building to come talk to me. He's like, yo, you've been on an A, America's Most Wanted. I might got to pitch you on PC. I'm not jacking PC. I ain't going to no PC. Y'all going to have to kill me. I ain't going nowhere. So he comes back.

He said, me talk to somebody. He calls, like, top security for Rikers Island or something. The next morning that he comes to talk to me. Like, yo, you feel comfortable. You feel safe. I'm like, yeah, he's like, I know you don't want to go to PC. He said, I don't want to pitch you in there and force you in there if you don't want to be in there. But you want to go to the population?

I'm like, yeah. So you let me go to population. And how have the inmates treat you when you went to population? It's crazy. When I first got in the house, one of the dudes gave me a newspaper article. He's like, yo, I just seen you in a newspaper. He actually gave me the newspaper article. A couple of dudes from my hood was there.

It was a dude that kind of was running the house at that time. He had a murder charge, too. It wasn't too many people with murder charges in this house, like the intake house. So they kind of respected him. So when I came in, he showed me love like, yeah, I'm in a murder charge. I know you're in a murder charge. I seen in the newspaper and you just face showing me love from there. You think people are afraid of you in there?

Probably not in the beginning, maybe some people, but I've seen that I learned from my first day in prison that Valance Rule. So I sat there and watched, I see that you got people asking to get on the phone, you got to ask to watch TV, you got to ask to get a chair, they're taking your chicken, they're taking your Frosties, they're taking your muffins. So I've seen that Valence Rule. I said it's my first time in prison. A lot of my friends that went to prison before me,

They came back telling me the stories how they was running the phones, running the houses, running the dayroom. And I'm like, yo, some of these dudes is not as tough as me. If they was running, when I go to prison, I'm taking over. So I always had it in the back of my mind. So by the time I get in there, I'm like, I'm not going to be a sheep. So off day one, I just started fighting off the rip. What do you do to kind of assert that dominance? My first day, in there a couple of dudes from my neighborhood, end up getting a fight with somebody.

So I ran and jumped in. So I jumped in the fight. So now they jacking me, oh, yeah, he's popping. he jumped in. After that, everything that was going on, I was the first one, I'm the first one doing something every time. And you think you would have been a target if you didn't do that? Nah, nah, I mean, I feel like dudes know who they could try. You could try certain people, you could try. Me, I didn't care about myself, so I definitely didn't care about nobody else. So I wasn't with nothing. I'm not giving nothing up. I'm not with nothing. So you're going

to have to kill me here. You're going to have to drag me out this house bloody. I'm not with nothing. So when I came off the rip, I established myself. How long are you in there for before your first court hearing? A couple days, maybe like a week. I went to arraignment after my first week. They told me Nobel. I'm glad to go to the grand jury, which I didn't go. My lawyer told me, don't go to the grand jury, whatever.

I got indicted. Do you wish you went to the grand jury? I don't know, but I have seen some people go to the grand jury and beat it because you're telling your story. But when you get to the grand jury, the district attorneys in there were no judge, no lawyer, so they could just tell the jury anything. A lot of times the jury members go for anything.

You know, it was a famous saying that you can indict a ham sandwich. So, man, you basically probably going to get indicted anyway. Now, were you worried about running into the victims people at all in Rikers? Nah, I wasn't worried about nothing. I actually, one of his family members was a correction over, so not in that building, though. So I already heard that from other people. His artwork there, his uncle worked there, whatever. I didn't care.

I wasn't worried about nobody. I felt like somebody come at me, we're going to go all the way. They're going to kill me. I'm going to kill him. I'm willing to go to the fill of the stint, whatever it is. But no one ever ended up trying you? They family? Yeah.

Oh, no, of course, no. I never even ran into none of his family members or friends or nothing like that. Did you find out he was in the streets too? Was he in the streets? Not really. I don't think so. I just think that, you know, we was young teenagers at the time. You know, none of us want to be embarrassed.

None of us. We both got pride issues. You know, he wanted the people that probably, you know, just wanted to seem like he was, I don't, I don't even know he was in shooting. I even know him. I don't even know him. So how does the legal process play out? Do they give you a plea deal first or what it look like? They didn't even offer me nothing in the beginning. But actually, I told my lawyer, I said, I don't want nothing to talk about the offers. I don't got nothing to do with this. I'm going home. I'm beating it. So you're like, what if I could get you some 15 years or 10 years?

I'm like, I ain't doing nothing. I don't want to do nothing. I couldn't even imagine doing 10 years at the time. Three months or six months was forever for me. One of my friends did it, There are eight months, and I felt like you've been in jail forever. So I wasn't interested in taking nothing. How much time goes on? Before I ever went to trial, I've been sitting on Rikers Island for maybe two and a half years for my first trial. Actually, I had to miss trial my first trial. So that was at least two and a half years before I ever started my first trial.

How long was that first trial? Maybe two, three weeks. That was stressing, stressful right there. Maybe first two, three weeks, that was my first trial. Did you testify? No, I didn't, you know, the lawyer told me, oh, you don't testify. When you testify, they can start asking you certain questions and stuff like that. So at this time, I follow a lawyer advice.

I don't know nothing about the law. I don't really know nothing, you know, so I follow him as advice. By the time of that first trial, did you kind of like settle into jail life and get accustomed to it and then ready in case it turned bad? Before I'm the first trial, I was all in. I hadn't been running around, running right as Allen, kicked out rebuilding in the box all the time. I'm known on Allen, like, you know, so I was all in by then. I didn't even, was nothing to me at the time.

What was Rikers like in the early 2000s? To me, it was fake fun. You know, all your friends is there, all your family members pulling up. My younger brother actually ended up coming in the same house with me one time. So we ended up playing basketball, which is messed up. But, you know, your friends and family there, so we running around, we cutting people, jumping people, whatever we're doing. It was fun.

How was the food? The food was disgusting. We thought we was eating good. you know, we're taking, Raymond noodles is what we call crack air suit. He's taking crack-ass soup, mixing it with Doritos and all kind of fish and A-YOs and cheese

and mixing it all together and think we're eating good. What about the food they served you? What was that like? Oh, I didn't even eat that. That was disgusting. Maybe you only ate probably chicken or fish or something like that. Frosted flakes in the morning for breakfast. You had to fight for your Frosties,

so if you eat your Frosties, you know, you had to be tough for Frosties back then. You had to fight for those. What do you mean? For frosted flakes, the little box of frosted flakes, Tony Tygo on it, you ain't getting no Frosties for breakfasts. They're taking your Frosties or you're going to come out and fight for your Frosties. Who's taking it?

People who run in the house. You know, people running the crib. They're taking the Frosties. So you would take people's? Nah, so I'd never take people. Only thing I would take is phone calls. I'd take phone calls. I'd put the phones in my pocket.

I ain't with taking people food and violating people food and stuff like that. How would you take a phone call? Somebody come in the house. I'm telling me get your PIN number. they give you your pin number when they're coming out most dudes just give it up most dudes ain't even going to fight for their pin number you didn't feel bad about that no i just want to give them the phone you get a 15 minute and six minute phone calls every five hours at the time when i first got arrested i probably had a lot of girlfriends you know so i need to call everybody i got

multiple people to call i got my mother around she wanted to hear from me every day and my father went here from me every day i wasn't i wasn't going without that phone how do you know not to try the wrong person you kind of don't know who to try unless you're I mean, if you feel like you look at a person, it ain't not good to try. But when you come in a house or when you try it, it's going to be the whole house jump you. You're going to get jumped by 30, 40 people.

So if you're going to take that jumping or you're going to take that ass with me, you're going to give it up. So why have Frosted Flakes such a hot commodity? Yeah, I actually don't even know. When I came in it, I was like the money already. So Frosted Flakes, muffins, chicken, I don't know.

When I got there, that's how it was. Yeah. I mean, I guess because it's a name brand, cereal compared to what they Yeah, that's probably what it is. That's probably the cereal everybody liked and it's free. You don't have to buy it from commerce every day. Just giving it out to everybody.

Now, where you, since you were 19, you were probably with older people too, like the adults. Yeah, I was with the adults. So there was no like OGs schooling you or kind of teaching you the way how to navigate? Yeah, I met a few official OGs, man. I remember one of the OGs, man. He was a nation of God's Earth.

You know, we called God Body, so he used to come to me every morning and try to get me teaching. You know, what's the highest point in the earth? You know, what's this? What's that? I just want to hear that shit, man. Get out of here. But he actually told me a lot because I started learning this. So he actually told me a lot. What do you think was the most valuable piece of prison advice someone gave you during that time at Rikers? Mind your business. A lot of times people don't mind their business to get them in a lot of problems. Mind your business. I think that's the most valuable vice person can give you from day one in

prison. Now, what's the evidence they present to you at your first trial? On witnesses. Witnesses that said I did it. No DNA evidence. evidence, no physical evidence. There's a couple of witnesses that I did it. Most of them. Actually, one of the witnesses who got, he got arrested with maybe some drugs or something, he said, I did it. Well, I did it. Well, I did it. Well, I did it one from the precinct. My first trial, I had a mistrial. He came and said it wasn't me. He said, yeah, I said somebody did. I seen the whole thing, and it wasn't him. So these other witnesses are just saying that they physically saw you pull the trigger and kill someone. Yeah, they said it was there. They

actually seen it. They didn't even say they seen me pull the trigger. They said they seen me fighting them, they seen me say it or something like that. They said it was there. Now, couldn't you just get other witnesses to say that you weren't there and that you were wherever you were at the time? I could have. I actually didn't even think nobody had the heart to come to trial and tell on me. You know, I'm from last time from Grammy Gates, man, so people kind of scared of people in my block. I didn't think that a person would have the heart to get on a stand and point me out. I didn't think nobody would be able to do that. But at this time, all my friends is in prison too for their own shootings and murders.

and stuff like that. So I felt like that was like, now was the time we could get them. What was your exposure going into trial? What's worst case scenario if you lost? I had murdered in the second degree, which is the max 25 to life, possession of weapon in the second degree, max 15 years. So how does it feel to gamble with your life then, 25 to life? It's crazy because I was a gambler.

So I was going on a lot. I didn't want to take 10 years. I didn't want to take 15 years. I wasn't taking it 20 years. So I was a gambler. I felt like I was going to win. I didn't think I could lose. Do you get going?

I feel like I'm a lucky person. I got so much good luck. I ain't losing. I'm not losing no trial. I'll be home. Do you wish you took that plea deal? Yeah, I'll do. I'll say, oh, man.

Even if you did or you didn't do it, sometimes it might be best to take a plea deal, the way the system is now because they don't care if you did it or you didn't do it. They just trying to get a conviction. So I was like, damn, if I would have asked for 10 years or 12 years, I'd have been home a long time ago. How long did the jury deliberate for that first trial? Maybe like three or four days. The judge gave him something called an Allen charge where he sent him back in. Yeah, where they kept saying they can't come to an agreement.

They want to read back to the witness statements. So they kept reading it back the witness statement, reading back the witness statements. Then the judge tell them, you know, going there, you could change your mind and stuff like that. They couldn't change their mind. So the judge gave me a mistrial. How did it feel to have a mistrial? Did you consider that a win, you and your team? I did consider it a win.

At first, because I didn't know that they, you know, I was too dumb to know that I was go back to trial again. I thought that, you know, they're going to let me go home. So I felt like I won at the time. In some cases, they don't recharge, but. So in this case, some of the witnesses that came and said it wasn't me, they didn't bring them back the next trial. So they just brought back the witnesses who said it was me.

So what was it? They weren't credible, those other witnesses? They was credible. I guess, you know, they're not. They only credible if they're on the DA side, if they saying you did it. If they saying you didn't do it, they're not credible. If they saying you did it, they're credible. would they good. So why didn't your lawyer just bring those individuals back?

I say the same thing all the time. I was like, now that I know, I'm like, damn, my lawyer could have called these same dues back. So do you feel like your lawyer was ineffective? Yeah, my lawyer is ineffective. It's way more. I felt like it's way more stuff he could have did and what could have said. Now when I got in prison and the lobby and stuff, I see so much stuff he could have said and so much stuff that he didn't say. You know, I feel like he did, he did good on certain parts, but, yeah, he didn't. He didn't help me at all. How much time passes between your first trial and your second trial?

Not that long. They took me back like two, three months later. It took me right back. And I was surprised it was so fast. I've seen people that get missed trials waiting for another year or two to go back. And how long was that trial? I'm the same, probably like two, three weeks. And what was so different about this one besides the different witnesses?

I said, they just didn't bring the witnesses back. Everything else was the same with different jury. So you think it would have been the same outcome, the mistrial or maybe even a not guilty, had your lawyer called those other witnesses? I think if they had to call other witnesses, I would have been not guilty because at the same time, those were the, um, DA witnesses, those are the people witnesses. So the people witnesses is saying they was there and they seen it and that it wasn't me, it was somebody else. Did they have a murder weapon?

Nah, they didn't have a murder weapon. They don't even need a murder weapon to charge you to murder. So they had no weapon. No weapon. No DNA. Just people saying that you were there. People saying I was there for their own game. Did DNA ever come up later on or no? No, never. So there's no DNA to this day. They never even took my DNA. And they never even found a murder weapon? They never found a murder weapon.

What were they saying was a murder weapon? A knife or a gun? A gun. Okay. They said the person was shot. Okay. So you end up getting convicted after the second trial? Yeah, I got convicted.

How long the jury deliberate in this one? Fast. That one was fast, maybe one day. How do you feel when they came back so quick? I was surprised that they came back so quick because my first trial I said it was so long. They took a couple days. So I'm like, damn, they're coming back kind of quick. So I feel like when it's quick is, like, you know, bad.

So when I went in, I seen 20, 30 co-offices inside the court. My first trial wasn't that many. So I kind of felt it right there like, damn, man, you're going to say guilty. How did it feel when they read guilty? I said it's game time now. Like, it's what it is. I'm about to go up north and have to start all over. I mean, I was just going to fight it.

I said, I'm a fighter to keep going to. My mother told me, you know, say strong, we're going to make sure you good. We're going to fight. And my father said the same thing. It was just game time, man. What does your lawyer say to you? I'm going to pit in the pill for you. You got a whole bunch of appeal issues.

They valid your rights. You know, he told me all the same stuff, all lawyers say. And you kind of hold on to hope for that, though, right? Yeah, I hold on hope forever. I never give up hope. I think I was going every day. I used to walk around and y'all and say, I'm going to get a reversal. I'm going to reverse.

I'm telling everybody I'm getting a reversal. I ain't never give up hope. How to feel going back to you? Rikers that night after being found guilty? I came back on some bullshit. I was in a box, actually, so I came back in the box. I was on some bullshit. The officers kind of knew that I just blew trial and stuff like that, so they was,

you know, taking ease on me. You know, you're all right. You need anything when you get in the shower again? It was, like, more lenient with me. They ain't really, you know, mess with me like that. What hits you the hardest, the hardest, getting found guilty or the sentencing? I think getting found guilty was harder than sentencing because I was prepared for the citizen, you know?

So I knew my max and stuff like that. So I was prepared already. So when I got found guilty, that's when it's, like, you know, really hit me. Were you expecting the max? My lawyer told me, he said, man, it's your first real offense, you know, so you're probably not going to get the max. So I didn't, I was just ready for whatever came. What happens at sentencing?

No, my own, my family and friends wrote letters. And for me and then a victim family come up there and say they, part, you know, curse you out, say how they feel. Victim Mom's, victim mother actually told me that, you know, she prayed for me and that she forgive me because she believed in God and stuff like that. And, you know, God says forgive, you know, a couple, which rightfully so, a couple, you know, other people got up there and cursed me out, told me that I hope I be in jail so long that when the paint pill off the wall, my skin pill with it, stuff like that, man, I ignore them.

My mom's prepared me to. My mother told me before the sentence, she said, don't let them see you sweat. them see you cry. You're going to be hired. We're going to get your lawyer. We're still going to work and get you out of jail. Don't let them stress you out or nothing like that. So I was prepared. I said, they ain't never going to see me cry. You never going to see me for ever. Did you speak at sentencing? No, I ain't want to talk. They asked me if I want to talk. I said, no, I don't want to talk.

The district attorney ended up saying something about that. He don't even want to talk. He don't want to say anything. He don't want to be more so you don't care. Do you wish you talked looking back on it? Nah, I'm not even a talking person. Actually, I wasn't a talking person back then. And I ain't care.

I ain't want to talk to them. I was mad at them too. That they cursed me out. I wanted to curse them out. So if I were to talk, they'd probably have been bad. I'd probably to curse them out. Curse the judge out. Cursed the judge out.

Cursed the correctional of us out. caught of us as anybody. What do you end up getting sentenced to? I end up getting sentenced to 20 year of life. Overall, seven years for a gun. So I got it 20 years to life altogether. And what does that mean in New York State?

That means that you got to do 20 years before you go to the parole board. And at that point, you had how much time in four? Not even three years, almost three years at the time. So what are you thinking going into that? I'm not even seeing 20 years. I don't think 20 years ever coming. in 20 years is like life to me.

So I just gave up. I said, I don't care about enough that I'm going up north. I'm catching the jail body. I'm going to kill somebody. I just was ready to go on time in up north. Why that? Why does that go to your mind? Because I said I'm never coming home.

I'm going to make sure I never come home. At that time, 20 years was life. I couldn't even imagine getting to 20,6, and actually come home. That was the furthest from my mind. I never met nobody that actually did 20 years and came home. I've never seen it. A person get locked up, go home. I wasn't even 20 years old when this case happened, you know, so I'd never seen it.

I didn't, I couldn't even imagine it. Now, how long do you stay at Rikers before they make you go up north? Maybe like a month, month and a half. And what are you hearing about going up north? You know, everybody telling their stories. There's a lot of wars going on, gang walls, race wars, religious wars. You know, they tell you your stories what to do or not to do. You go up north, somebody leave.

You know, this famous story. your cake on your bed, don't eat it, then they're going to come back wanting their cake or they go, you owe them something. I told them, I don't care. They put the cake in my bed, I'm going to do whatever I want to do. I take that shit, throw what I eat,

I do what I want. They come over here, then we leave it. You know, that's how I used to feel. Were you running with a gang at all? Yeah, I was running with a gang, man. I was blood at the time. And you joined them in prison? Nah, I was just growing up,

my community, it's just, I don't even think we really even join. We just say this what we is, and that's it. Do you think you could have survived not being a blood in prison? Yeah, I think I can survive anything. I think, you know, everybody think they're tough. I'm not going to say I think I'm the toughest person,

but I feel like I could do anything. I don't think nobody could, you know, do better to me with anything. Were you scared to go to actual prison? I wasn't scared. I was ready. Like, I told you, my mindset was, I'm going in there, and I'm not going to play with them, but I'm going to kill someone, I'm catching a jail body.

That's it. But saying that and then actually doing that are two different things. It is, but, you know, actuality, when I wasn't right because out, and I'm already getting in so much. much problems getting in so much stuff so I was ready to prepare so by the time I actually go to prison I kind of know a bunch of people up north and they already know me I already build a reputation where do they bring you to first um at that time it was down state was open when you first go off the bus they come out there screaming all the officers get off the bus they start screaming

cursing you out throwing the wall I think they jumped somebody that day to show you that you know we different for rikers allen so you tell you this is not rikers allen we don't care what you do in rikers island we'll kick your ass up here so that's what I went first And is it like a Mac security prison? Yeah, it was a Mac security prison, but it was transit, basically for reception and transit. So everybody there was either on reception or transit, or they worked there, which is like caddry. And what's the name of this facility? Downstate Correctional Facility.

Oh, it's actually called Downstate. Yeah, actually closed on maybe like two or three years ago. Okay. And how long are you there for? Maybe like 30 days, 40 days. And where do they send you? Five points, correctional. So that's my first jail.

Five points in my first jail with a bunky. My first time I actually being in a cell with a person. When they pit me in their cell with a Spanish dude, he had. He had about 20 years and two murders. He put me in a cell when he was Muslim at the time. He's a good dude. So I get in there, I'm like, I don't know what to think. You know, you see the movies with your bunkeys.

I don't know if I should pop on him first. Are you going to try to pop on me or what when I came and he gave me his hand? Like, y'all, I'm a Muslim. I'm a good brother. Where you from? What's your name? And you end up being a good brother. At Rikers, you don't have a cellmate?

Nah, you don't get cellmates. You don't get cellmates. Rikers Allen. Rikers Allen, you by yourself. That's actually kind of nice. I'd rather be by myself. I don't even think cellmates are working at Rikers Island. Rightges Island is off the wall, you know.

So there's that many cells in a unit where everyone could stay single man? Yeah, Rikersand is about 50 cells every unit. Wow. It's about 50 cells. And it's got what the sliding doors or? Yeah, it got sliding doors. Every building kind of have different doors. So some is electric, some manual.

But yeah, they all got the sliding doors. You locked in that cell. But didn't they not lock around that time period? So sometimes if you was good, you could pop your cell. You might pop yourself out your cell. friends might pop out and then pop yourself too. And what do you do? Just hang out and out, running around, doing nothing, passing stuff with people smoking, playing dice, really nothing.

So now at the prison you're at, are there, it's all people with murder or violent charges? No, they had a little bit of everybody, but it's a maximum security prison. So most people is maximum security people. Unless you was in like a medium and you got into some crazy violent stuff, they moved you to a max. And who do you gravitate towards just other bloods? Other gang members, other people from Brooklyn. I'm from Brooklyn, so I'll be on my Brooklyn shit You know, I'll be on my style shit

So when dudes from the style, they know you're from the style I share with the style dude I chill with the Brooklyn dudes How long to take they kind of get a routine? Wow, I'm a loner So sometimes I walk around and y'all by myself Some of the older bros, they're coming and be like Yo, you're stressed out like, now I'm good

They be like yo, I see you by yourself You know, we family, you don't got to be by yourself You don't got to move like that You got anything going on, let us know You need somebody to talk to, let us know So I'm like, nah, I'm good I just like to chill about myself. How did you figure out how you wanted to do your time?

What kind of bid you wanted it to be? Like I said, man, I came up north on some, not caring about anything, but I played a lot of basketball, so that actually, like, take me out of the problem. So it was even basketball or gang banging and getting in problems, so it was even one of the other. What were the politics like? So when I first came up state, man, you come to the yard, you got to check it with your crew.

So wherever you is, like, you know, whatever you're from, you got to go. and let them know you in the yard. Me, I ain't do that. I just like, I'm going to the phone. I'm starving. I got to call my girls. They used to get mad at me. The older dudes, like,

yo, you got to pull up to and check in her. So then I'm like, yo, they think I'm soft. So I end up going to the yard and end up no penning some work. And now they see, like, oh, you know what, you're good. Just go get in the phone.

I know you're stressed out. They let me do whatever I want now. They're not able to tell them to do what everybody's got to do no more. Were your parents supportive? Yeah, my father and my mother held her down. My mother just come see me every week.

My father come see me every week. They see me. I never missed the commissary. My mother, my father, my grandmother, they made sure I'm good, you know, every, every time, every day, every jail I went to. Did you have to hustle in prison? I didn't have to hustle in prison. I wanted to hustle in prison. I wanted more.

You know, I wanted to do my own thing. It just was in me. That's who I was. How do those first three months feel like time-wise when you get that long of a sentence? It was just like a blur to me. I was just going day by day just, just, just my time. moving day by day. I wasn't even thinking about how much time was or how much time I had in front of me. I couldn't think about that. I wouldn't ever probably survive if I thought like that.

How long were you at that first prison for? Maybe like almost a year. My first couple, maybe my first couple weeks in the prison, I caught a ticket, a stupid ticket, a gang ticket. Somebody get caught with a letter. I told him I'll get somebody cut in another block. I'm in eight block at the time. So somebody get cold a letter saying cut somebody in 11 block. Had my signature on it. You know, I was stupid. I wrote my name. Oh, this is something about fresh.

They catch it. They give me a ticket. Send me to the box. Some bullshit like 90 days. It's my first time in the box upstate. Rikazan box, you can use the phone every day. You know, so I'm using the phone every day. Upstate was no phone.

Now I'm stressed. I'm depressed. The worst stress I've been in my life. You know, stress. I'm going to sleep, cursing God out. Like, yo, please kill me. Like, why are you doing this team? I hate you, you know, every day.

So that was the most of the present part of my life right there. Were you religious at that point? At that time, I believed in just, you know, God. My grandmother was a very religious person, so she sent me Bible scriptures in the mail every week. My aunt, a very religious person. She's sending me Bible. She's sending me Bible every week or two.

So I'm reading the Bible and stuff. But, you know, at that time I started feeling like he just gave up on me. Like, I know, you know, I did bad things in my life, but I can't take this. And she had said, you're going to God, I'm not going to pitch you in a position that you, can't handle. I'm like, no, I can't handle this. This is too much right here. This is enough. Please stop. Like, no more, you know. Do you feel like you were there for, I guess, karma in a way?

You know, maybe you didn't do that case, but you did other stuff. I don't know about karma, but I do feel like maybe I could have been the worst predicament. I could have been arrested for a whole bunch of other things I did do. Or I could have been, you know, murdered in the streets the way I was going. I was wilding, which in the streets, I didn't think nobody could do it to me, but, you know, it can happen to anybody. So if I didn't get arrested for this, it probably would have been way worse. What else are you thinking about when you're in the box? Everything, you know, I'm just, I'm read.

I like to read, so I'm in there reading books. When I put the book down, I'm just overthinking. I'm going to overthink. I'm thinking about every girl I had. I'll go through every letter alphabet A, every girl I have with A, B, every girl I have a B. Every girl I have a C. Who's the prettiest girl I had? Stuff like that.

I'm just thinking about everything. O overthinking, what this girl doing? She's not writing me no letters. this time is only snail mail. So you got to write a letter, take three, four days to get there. She got to write your letter back, three, four days to get back

if the jail for, like, giving it to you now. So you might have to wait 10 days or two weeks for a letter. So now I'm depressed. Who the hell is she at? She ain't come visit me this week. Do they give you a cellmate in the box there? Yeah, they give you a cellmate in the box.

I had all kinds of cellmates in the box, all kinds. Did you have a really bad one ever? What? I had some terrible cellmates. I had one dude. He came in. Soon as he came in, he spit in the sink. I'm a clean person.

I don't do that. So I'm like, you spin in the sink. He's like, yeah. I'm like, don't spin in the sink again. He's like, all right. He's jumping down. He's still spinning the sink. He's on the top bump.

So now I can't take it more. I back out on him, you know. I'm like, yo, get out of here. You got to go kick it down. So he sees him raising my hand. He's like, what you got that for? I'm like, if you don't kick it down, I'm going to cut you. He's like, I don't want to kick it down.

I'm like, nah, you can't live here, man. You're spinning the sink. You stink. you don't get in shower. He told him, I don't get in the shower. It's a shower in the cell. You know, you get like maybe like three, four minutes showers every other day. I'm like, yo, get in the shower.

He's scared to get in the shower. That's my first jail. I heard dudes get raped in jail. So I ain't no dude. I don't do that. I don't do that. I ain't know rape old. Get in the shower.

So I end up making him kick it down. He was probably the worst bunk ever had. And how old was he? He was younger than me. So he might have been 19, 20 at the time. I never understood the guys that don't shower. He said he was scared because he heard that people get raped in jail. This is his first time being in, he didn't have been in jail of one or two.

So he was scared. So I'm trying to tell him, I don't rate people, you good. And he didn't want to hear it. He didn't want to hear it. Yeah, but he must have saw you shower in the cell. He seen me showering, and he still was acting scary, man. He was, I don't know, he was crazy. So the COs took him out?

Yeah, he kicked it down. He told him he can't live there. I made him hold a slot. When they bring child, they open your slot. So I make him stick his arm out of the slot. You'll stick your arm out of the slot, hold a hole in time you can't live here. They came and took them out. Oh, because otherwise they would lock the slot.

lot because his arm was in it. So he ended up handcuffing him and taking him out moving someone else. He had a fight recently went to because he was doing the same thing. He didn't get in the shower. He's just dirty. Now, a guy like that, how does he survive prison long term? I end up seeing him a few years later, man. I was in one of these at the time, maybe like five or six years later.

And they did him dirty over there. Same thing, he got a small mouth and he's not willing to go all the way. They end up jumping him and hurting him real bad. Where'd you go after that first prison after the year? After that, I think I went to Green Haven. I went to Green Haven. I was there maybe 30 days. Why only 30?

I didn't actually do nothing. My stepfather was my sister father. He was there. So I got to meet him there in prison because he was in prison too. A couple of my friends from my neighborhood was actually there. So I was kind of happy to be in that prison. I was double bunked over there too. One of my bunkies, you know, he was gang banging.

He was a different gang. He goes to school and get cut. He comes back to the cell. At the time, Green, you can wear hoodies in the hallway. You can wear hats in the hallway. So he put his hat on his hoodie on and come away back to the cell. He'd take it off. I'm like, what the fuck?

He blood everywhere. So I'm up to fuck. So he's like, y'all'm going to start him. So before he could do that, police come. They see him bleed and they take him out. I'll get Peked. They send me out the jail. What does P.K. mean?

They just pit you on a pack up for no reason. Like, you ain't really even do nothing. Just to be safe. They just put you in a pack of. And they sent me the same scene. Why they thought you were involved? I don't know if they thought I was involved, but he's in the cells. Only me and him locked in the cell when he's bleeding.

You know, so they probably think, who else to do it if it ain't me? He didn't say I did it. He said I didn't do it. What year did you go to Sing Sing. 2010. What was that? Like, it's pretty notorious prison. Yeah, Sing Sing is like the closer you get to the streets,

Sing Sing is what's late. Everything you do in the streets, kind of, you be doing Sing Sing, you're playing dice, you eating McDonald's Chinese food every day. You got actually girls that look good. Other prisons, all the CEOs is trash, garbage. You get the Sing-Tin, you got something that's fire like that you see in the streets that you think look good. So when you get there, dudes cutting school in the hallway on the staircase, dudes getting robbed every day. Sing-Sing was like probably the best jell I've been in.

Who's bringing in the food? Everybody, whoever, whoever you want to buy. You got money, you get food. How much would it cost? Like, say you want McDonald's. McDonald's probably like $50. You give them five packs of cigarettes. Cigarettes probably like $10 at the time.

You get a five-packed cigarettes. You get a number one. That was like $10 at the time. For just one burger? Or that's fries? Big Mac and French fries. I used to eat McDonald's Chinese food every day. So I'm spending $50 a day on outside food, pizza or whatever.

Now, why are the guards risking their jobs for little money? I have no idea. You know, at the same time, everybody wants money, I guess. What about sleeping with COs? Was that a thing with the females? Yeah, females do what they want to do, man. Or you do what they want to do. Did you find that strange?

Nah, you know, you see all the movies. That's what happens in the movies. In the movies, that's what goes on. So when you come to jail was kind of like the movies and stuff, you know, movies hyped it up, you know. But it was kind of the same thing. You see the movie is kind of the same thing. What type of inmates were at Sing Sing. Is it all just violent offenders?

Everybody. Sing Sing got a little bit everybody. They got violent offenders. They got rape bowls. They got fiends. They got people that pushed ladies on the train. They got people that rob old ladies. They got anybody over there.

How would you get along with those types of inmates, like the rapos, the people that hurt elders? I stay away from them. I don't even talk to them. They like shunned. In prison, they shunned, man. You know, you got some tough rapos and some tough people like that. But for the most part, they're cleaning fans and cleaning showers with toothbrushes and washing dishes and washing clothes and stuff like that. Nobody really talking.

They kind of get shunned. But they're safe to live there? Some of them, they're going to be washing dishes and washing clothes, unless they just on some tough. a tough rapo, but if not, they probably be washing clothes and stuff like that, and they're good. Did you come across any celebrities during your time? Yeah, I was with a couple of dudes. I was with a couple people. Anyone we would know, or?

I was with Chi Ali and Sing Sing. Who's that? He used to be a little, um, up-and-a-comer rapper back then. Okay. Yeah, I was, that's really it. That's really it. Wasn't Shine in prison? Yeah, I wasn't in prison with Shine.

They was in, like, a different unit. I was actually in Klan, which he was in Klan, but he was in like an APPU unit. That's like, I don't want to say it's PC or nothing like that, but it's like high-profile people, stuff like that. They keep them away from the whole population. So the only time you really see him, because I actually seen some of them dudes, but they work in commissaries. So you only can see them like through the window, they closed the whole jail when they move. How long were you in Sing Sing for? I was in Sing Sing, probably for like two years.

That might have been the... Your longest run. Yeah, I might have been one of my longest runs. And where do you go after Sing Sing? I went to the box. I went to the box for two years. For what? Stabbing, cutting.

Some dumb dude, man. I wasted my time, man. He actually was sneak thief in the company. He's sneaking everything. And I actually be the one to catch him. I'm walking past. I actually seen him. I don't know how it had to be me that seen him.

And I end up doing something to him. And I didn't go into the box of two years for that. Why got involved, though? I didn't care at the time, man. I just, just active, man. I just won an action. I ain't really care. Now, at that point, what's going on with your appeals?

Because that's already a few years in. My first appeal got denied. That's when I was stressed. My first pill got denied right before that. That's when it, like, said in, like, damn, man, I might be here for this whole 20 years. I came on myself looking for this CEO who used to always valid. I told one of my friends, I say, yo, if he on this hill, I'm shooting him. I said, please don't come with me to shout out because I don't want you getting involved.

One of my dudes, one of my best friends. He's still one of my friends. Shout to BG. But he told me, he said, no, I'm going with you. He said, you don't got to cut him. He said, I'm a snuffing. He's just going to jump him. He said, I don't want you cutting him.

He said, let's just jump him. I'm like, nah, I'm cutting him. Don't come on me. So we go up the hill. He actually runs before me so he could pop on him before I get there because he didn't really want me to cut him. He just wanted to jump him. day, I'm like, yo, he got lucky because we were going to do him dirty just because I lost my

appeal. What do you have caught more time for that? Yeah, probably. At that time, I didn't care. I told you I had, I felt like it was never coming. My day was never coming anywhere. I didn't care. Now, when you lose that first appeal, is there no other options in your mind?

You can appeal your appeal, but that was my shot. That's what I thought I was going to win. I thought for sure I was getting a reversal. You couldn't tell me I wasn't getting a reversal. What was it like to be in the box for two years? It's a long time. Yeah, when I first got there, well, in two years. bad, but then I seen all my friends leave and then come back and leave and come back.

And they're like, yo, fresh, you still here? I'm like, yeah, man. They're like, damn, man, when you get out, I'm like, yo, I still got six months. I still got four months. That's when it started getting stressful seeing anybody leave and I'm still here. What does that do to you mentally? Kills you mentally. I think that that almost broke me.

I felt like I can't break. I said, I'm the toughest person. I never could break. That almost broke me. Like I said, you were in there overthinking. I'm cursing God out. I'm just not giving up, but I'm ready. I'm on the brinks.

Like, I don't care about nothing no more. Like, it's over. Like, you know, all you got time to do with your mind. Ain't no phone in the box. Ain't no food in the box. You didn't have starving. You don't got nothing. That was, like, the most stressful part of my bed.

How do you stay calm? I don't even think I stay calm, but I just read. I read all day. I order newspapers, so I'm reading newspapers every day. I'm ordering hundreds of magazines. Every magazine I'm ordering it. I'm reading. books all day. So I wake up, eat breakfast, read a book, go to sleep, eat, read a magazine,

write some letters, listen to music, go to sleep and do the same thing over and over every day. Now, you don't think you're kind of in a way playing into the government or the state's hand by acting this way in prison. You know, you're proving to them that you're a violent person. Yeah, I feel like prison is what helps you be like that. It takes your mind. So you're going to adapt and prison is doggy dog world so if you're not going to be the wolf you're going to be the sheep so i felt like that prison is something that makes you more like that and i i do think i would play into the hand i was playing into the hands do you wish you didn't looking back on it do you think it would have helped you long term hell yeah i feel like when i first came to prison if i knew what i

knew like my last few years i would have been a way better person way more set way greater person but i think you need time to mature you don't just you know go to prison and change overnight You've got to learn, especially your first time in prison. Where do you go once you get out of the box? To your next jail. My next jail was Clinton in Danora. Probably one of the worst jails I would have been. And that was one of the most stressful jails I would have been in.

It's further from home than you could be. You know, it's fur from everybody. Nobody lives up there. So nobody wants to be there. It's riots every day. Most valid jail. You can go to the bubble and give the police an ID and get a baseball battle or shovel. You know, so it's rocks in a yard or bricks in the yard.

Everybody got, you know, knives and shit. So that was definitely the worst mentally prison. I wasn't getting no visits like that. All my girls leaving me, you know. So I was down. I wanted to get out that jail. I think first riot I seen, I jumped in it. I seen a riot.

I ran to jump and I was, I'm getting out of here. What was a riot over? Hooch. Hooch. Somebody had bought some hooch from somebody, man, and they ain't make it right. So he ended up knocking one of the persons out. And they came back and knocked one of the other bros out. and it's just all all right.

What do you think was the worst thing you saw there? I seen somebody get shot by the police and clans. I never seen nobody get shot from the tower. When you first get the claim, they take you from the annex, they pitch you in a van and drive you to the main. And the police tell you, he gave you the spill. Like, it's a different jail than you ever been in. We don't play here.

We kill people. If you got a problem with somebody, go to the yard. You want to have a knife fight. You want to go gun and gun. Go to the yard. Don't do that shit in the jail. We're going to kill you. Don't hit no oversaw.

We're going to kill you. We don't use rubber bullets. We shoot you. I'm like, man, this dink is just talking shit. They ain't shooting nobody. I actually seen somebody get shot with a real gun. I didn't believe it. I went up there and looked in the snow, blood oil in the snow.

I'm like, oh shit, they really shoot people. So now when I got a riot, when I'm in a riot, I hear a shot. It's the only time I ever jump on the floor because I don't stop. They tell me to break it up. I never break it up. Because I feel like you break it up. You get into the floor,

other person, and do something to you. It's the only time I ever jumped on the floor because I knew they really shoot you. Did everyone else jump on the floor? Yeah, everybody in Cleans, no, they really issued you. So everybody jumped on the floor. Everybody, like, nah, they ain't shooting me. They started shooting.

They started shooting. They started shooting. Everybody jumped on the floor. Yeah, I was with them, but I was in there when the escape actually happened. I didn't actually know them. They wasn't on the block. So I didn't actually know them. But I was there when the escape actually happened.

But they were serving the same kind of sentence as you, right? Yeah, they were serving the same sentence to me. So you could have ran into them? I probably ran into them in a yard or something. I just wouldn't notice them. They wasn't in my circle. Clinton, y'all might got 700 people in the yard. So if you're not in your circle with the person,

you're not even going to probably notice them, you know? So I was there when it happened. I remember that morning when it happened. What was it like for you? It was count time. You know, count time maybe like 6.30 in the morning in Clinton. We did the count. We laid down.

They woke us up again. Like, everybody cut your light on pitch your ID on the gate. So we like, you know, these stupid ass motherfuckers can count. So we get on the gate, they do the count. And they do the count, maybe four or five times. We like, what the fuck going on? So nobody knows what's going on. I ended up turning my TV, watch the news.

I see on the bottom, two inmates escaped from Clinton. So I'm like, oh shit, somebody escaped from this shit. So we think it's a joke, like maybe that they just can't find them. After that, we're like, it was real. They cut the TV off. Anyone that's watching the news. They cut all the TV channels off. They was cutting the water off.

They coming in your cell, beating dudes up. You never seen them again. They're kidnapping dudes literally for information. So they asked you where they went. You might have never seen these dudes in your life. They like, where did they go? Oh, dudes, I don't know. They jump you, kidnap you, never see dudes again.

A few years later, you see them. They like, yo, they beat me up, took me to the box. They was, that was, that was, Klan was on some bullshit at that time. They was on some valid bullshit. How long were they training you guys like that for? Maybe, like, the harsh way right there, maybe for, like, the first 30 days, but everybody was coming through. We had state senators coming through.

We had prison and legal service coming through. Governor at the time was Cuomo. He came through. So, P. Lesser, writers, like, let us know if they gave y'all. Let us know if y'all got in the shower. He wasn't getting in the shop. He wasn't going to y'all. He wasn't getting on the phone.

He wasn't getting no commissary visits. It wasn't getting nothing. So our family didn't even know what's going on with us. So PLS, with your prison legal services, they started writing us letters like, yo, they don't get y'all no showers. Make sure y'all write us. You know, so the police, they gotta sweep.

Police gotta clean the showers. They gotta hand out food. So they mad. Dudes are like, yo, you my slave, you my waitress, you my waiter. They lie, I'm spinning your food. You know what I'm saying? So you can't even eat their food.

The police mate, I ain't, you know, no police mate. Now as an inmate, are you mad at those guys for escaping or no? Nah, we was ruled for them. The whole, like, yeah, we were happy. We wanted them to get up out of there. We was happy to escape. I was proud of them.

A lot of times we don't even, we just in jail. Old Tamer told me one time he said, yo, you running around here playing basketball and cutting people all day. He said, you're doing it wrong. He said, you should be doing three things. Either one, you got a lot of money for a good lawyer. Two, you're in that law library or three, you better be trying to escape. He said, if you ain't doing all three, you just can.

tip with being in jail, you're just a jail, nigga. That's what he told me. And it took me years later to really understand what you meant. You ever think about escaping? Of course, but I was too... I didn't even know how they began it. What they did, what they said they did, I couldn't even pit that together how they did that, you know?

I couldn't even think about doing it that way. Once you found out how they escaped, do you think that could have been possible? If you had to have what they had, I never even had what they said they had tools and other that stuff. We've seen them shit's laying around. Now, you could cook in yourselves, or that's only for Honor Block.

Nah, no, you're not supposed to cooking yourselves, but we had eyes, which is the hot pot, break the hot pot, turn into an eye, get you a pot and pan. Like in Clinton, you could order pots and pans. You could cook in the yard. They got, like, stoves in the yard. So you can order pots and pans? You break the eye, you're cooking yourself. And then can you order, like, meat or anything?

Yeah, you order outside food. And Clint actually have, like, a farmer across the street, which they say the police own. But you order food from there. you order your beef strips, your chicken shrimps, make your food. I don't know how to cook. I never actually cooked ever in my life for my whole 20 years. Really? Yeah.

Every jell I go to, I find a chef. I paid them. Yo, what's up? You know how to cook? I see $100 every week. I need you to cook for me every day. What do you think was the best meal you ever had? I had fire meals, man.

I had Thanksgiving meals. I ate. We ate good. Like we had everything. People had shrimp, turkey, chicken, steak, rice and peas, mac and cheese, collard greens, broccoli. you know, everything. Everything people had, we had in prison when they come to food.

Where do you go after Clinton? To the box again. For the riot. Yeah, I went to the box for the riot. I was out of the box. I went to Auburn. How was Auburn? Terrible.

Auburn is like a jail with no TVs. So you ain't got no TVs in the cell, so you just up all day on the gate, gate banging. Dudes auguring, playing games. I used to play Scrabble on the gate with my neighbor. We could go get a box. Break it down.

When the CO's finished walking, we open the box, put it in the middle of the gallery. Pitch gravel on and play scrabble or play chess. I make a chessboard. You make a chessboard. You playing from cell or sell to sell. Just screaming out numbers. Dudes on the gate's arguing, playing music. Ain't really that much yard.

So you go to the yard one day, 30, 40 minutes. Besides that, you're in your cell. Just single? Yeah, single sales. All that. Yeah. What is that? Like a Supermax yard?

Yeah, only jail that was double bunk is five points in certain boxes. So those are the only double bunk gels. everything else was single cell. And you can, like, design yourself, like, hang stuff up, have it. You could, you know, the police hate on you. They don't really want to, they don't really want to see you with life. You know, I say, like, when I first came to prison, we used to wear baggy pants, your pants sagging. They tell you, hey, yo, take them fucking pants off, go to the state shop and get some smaller pans.

You look stupid, what you gay? So they'd take your pants. And then dudes started wearing fitted pants. Now they're saying something different. Oh, go get some bigger pants. Your pants too tight. Are you gay? Go get some big opinions. So they don't really want you hanging on up.

You know, we hang up pictures out of the magazine, get a straight stunt magazine with the pictures out. Hang them up on the wall. Shit like that. You know, design yourself, your color, your towel, your sheets. Try to give yourself some life, you know. You don't want to look dull or the same. What's the difference between being in a cell all day and then being in the box? Is there a difference?

It's kind of really no difference. But the only thing, if you want to sell serving gels, you got a TV now. You got your own clothes. You got your own clothes. You got your own food. So anytime you want in the boxes, no TV, it was no food, there's none of your own clothes, only state-issue clothes, state-issue sheets. Shows only like every other day or every two, three days for five minutes apiece.

Would they give you commissary at Auburn? In population? Well, yeah, when you were in the cell, though. Yeah, yeah, you get commissary jail. Anything good? Not really, but we, you know, it's better than what we have. I'll get a lot of Jack Mack, some massages make pasta, salmon. I like the salmon patties and stuff like that.

When you go to all these different prisons throughout your bid, does it help break up the time, make it go faster? Yeah, that definitely break up your time. Moving around, break up your time. I feel like besides being in the box, that's really going to slow. But besides that, moving around, break your time up. Where do you go after Auburn? To the box again. How'd you get in trouble there?

Something happened to one of my friends in the jail. So I feel like when I'm in jail, if you do something to somebody I'm cool with, that means you valid me. so when I come out, you know what's going to happen. So it's not going to happen with my friend. So when I came out for the next wreck, I end up stabbing one of his friends that did something of my friend. So I went to the box for that. How did you make a knife?

I don't even know how to make knives. I go around trying to buy it. Or I go buy stuff. You got this, you got that. Let me get it. What do you use? Metal. I don't know where they get metal from metal, plastic, wood.

I don't seen knives with anything. Do you think it was worth it to do that? Nah, but at the time. like I said, prison is doggie-dog world. The only thing you respect in prison is violence. They don't respect coming, talking, being a diplomat. They don't respect that. Only thing you don't respect is violence.

So I feel like if I'm in a prison and you know I'm cool with somebody and you do something to them, that you know when I come out, I'm doing something. How long are you in the box for that time? Maybe like a year. And where do you go after that? I went to Southport Box.

From Southport Box, I went to Almira. How was Elmira? Amira was a little bit better. Myra was a little bit better. I had a TV in your cell, get a little more wreck. I actually finished my program. I was in electric for so many years. I just kept going in the box.

I never got to finish. I actually got the finish in Amira. A little better, man. Did you take any other programs? Did you finish high school? Did you do anything? Well, I got my GED on Rikers Island, like my first month or two. It was easy.

First month or two, I got my GED. Actually, later on in my bid, I ended up getting an associate's degree. I did everything you could do in prison, basically. I got a legal recertificate. I worked in a library. I facilitated classes, engagement classes, seminars. Basically anything you could do in prison, I did it.

How long were you in Amira for? 45 days. Again, something happened with another one of my friends. So when I came out, I ended up having a razor fight with another dude. Did it get, I guess, tiring? constantly transferring, constantly go in the box, you never really got to, I guess, be stationed or comfortable. I think at that time I was kind of immune to the box.

I don't want to say institution lies, but I was immune to it. So the box was nothing to me to mind. I've been there so many times. That shit wasn't none. By the time I get to the box, all the officers know me, oh, you back. Townsend you just came back. You know, oh, Townsend back. Everybody know I'm there.

Yo, freshman, you just got back to the box. That shit was nothing to me no more. I ain't care no more. Do you run into a lot of the same guards that get rotated through different prisons throughout your prison bid? Not really, because most of the guards, they're the same. They're from that area. Like, that's all they got. A lot of the guards, if they didn't work in that jail, they probably work in Walmart.

You know, that's their funding for their community. A lot of them towns are small towns, so they're not leaving that town. So how many prisons in total did you go to throughout 20 years? I don't know the exact number, but I've been to almost every maximum security prison in New York State. Wow. Everyone almost. It's a lot of prisons. Yeah, it's a lot.

When do you start to kind of change your ways and your behavior? Maybe like my last four years. I got to Sullivan, my last four years. A lot of my friends was there that was doing a lot of stuff in other prisons. Like, they was turned up too. When I got there, they was chilling. They're going on trailers. They're going to college.

They facilitating programs. They running life with programs and stuff like that. Quality impact, like for the kids. community givebacks and stuff like that. So I'm like, wow, yeah, you doing this? So they got me into it like, yo, man, fresh, you got to chill, sit down, man. So I end up going to Sullivan. I'm getting into another riot.

I kind of got lucky. They didn't send me out to jail. They sent some people out of jail. Some people stayed. So when I stayed, some of my friends that was there that was chilling, they're like, yo, a couple old-timers, my son pretty black, Rahim, Mel, Dahl, and stuff like that. They like, yo, sit down, man, you do this. They signed me up for the lifers.

So they made me the treasurer. Life is a long-term organization. They talked me in and going to college. I went to college. They talked me in doing all that stuff, man. They helped me. The Lifers has a program in, I think, New Jersey, too, right? I don't know.

I know every jail in New York is life as long-termers. I think that's like something that's universal all over the country. Doos that got life. They, like, one of the legit programs that the administration actually let you do. Yeah, because I've interviewed a few people from the New Jersey Lifers group. Yeah, life is. We did a lot of good work, man. We do book back donations to schools, turkey donations, toys for Christmas to the kids, roses on Mother's Day.

So life is a good program. When you started to get involved with that, do you wish you kind of operate your whole bid like that? Yeah, I said this was the smoothest part of my bid. Like, I'm starting to be able to chill. I never got to chill. Like, I never not had nothing going on. So I'm like, damn, y'all was living like this for 10 years. Dudes down there for 15 years, 20 years, 25 years.

I'm like, how the hell y'all do that? But I feel like I had to go through stuff first. I wouldn't have been ready for that in the beginning. I had to go through stuff first. What was it like watching the world go on without you? You know, people you're in school with, friends, family, maybe deaths in the family, friends. Yeah, I didn't.

I try not to think about it too much, but I was always active on the phone, so I'm hearing what people were doing. They tell me, you're watching you get out, we're going to do this, if you're going to do that, when you get out, when you get out, you're going to be good. We're doing this, we're doing that. So, you know, I'm just happy for them.

I just can't wait until I get out there with them. I'm like, yeah, I can't wait to get out there with y'all, man. But, like I said, my mom's holding it down, my little sister, my brother. When I got out of prison, my little brother, you know, that's my younger brother. Now, he's a big bro. He's a big homie, you know what I'm saying? So it was cool. Now, what was going on with the second appeal as time went on?

My second appeal got denied, too. I wasn't as my first one got denied because it was like, did I put in another pill? But this time, my mindset was different. So when I got the Sullivan, I got a new appeal. bill, the witness actually wrote a letter to the DA 12, 13 years later and telling them, you know, we can that I want to tell the truth. I wasn't there and why I said it because I wanted to go home.

They didn't say nothing to me for the first couple years. I didn't even know he wrote a letter. He wrote another one and sent me a copy. They didn't let me get it. They didn't let me get the copy. I sent it home. So my friend said, yo, this is an affidavit saying that you ain't do. I'm like, oh, shit.

I end up paying a new lawyer and I end up giving it to the lawyer. So this one I felt it I felt like I was going So I'm walking around the yard every day Like yo they're going to call me for court soon I'm getting a reversal Like I read the secret Once I read the secret man

I just try to think positive I don't even try to think about nothing negative no more And they end up calling me for court Like yo you're going to court You got a reversal And what does a reversal mean Basically like they overturning your case Like or you get in a hearing

Or something like that So you're going to go back to record I don't know You're going back to court back and forth So I wouldn't have going back to court And doing a hearing a 440 hearing, where the witness came and testified that he lied and stuff like that. They called a detective.

They call the judge, the old judge, you know, D.A. and stuff like that. So what happens in your case? Well, they denied it again, actually. But I'm still fighting it. I'm still fighting my case. So I still got a pillant right now. Why did they deny it? I feel like the judge is, you know, he was a DA before.

So he kind of on a DA side. My old DA is a judge now as well, so she came in there and said, you know, everything was good. The police came under stand and got caught in so many lies, so many lies. So I kind of had faith that I was going to get that reverse too. But I was so close to my parole board anyway. I'm like, you know, it is what it is, man. I'm getting out of jail no matter what. So how'd that work with parole on your case?

After I got the 20 years, I went to the parole board. I prepared myself, so I was ready. So I just knew I was going old time to ask me. He said, yo, how do you feel? He said, because I don't want you to, you know, automatic thing you're going to go home. I got hit out the pro world three times. So you should prepare yourself just in case you get denied. I said, I ain't trying to hear that shit.

I ain't preparing myself for none of that. I said, I'm getting out of jail. I don't do the fuck about what you told him. I ain't trying to think about that shit. As a matter of fact, get away from me with that shit. So I just studied. I chat GPTed it. I made my friend go to chat GBT and pitting, you know everything about me.

my case, my charge and stuff like that. What's the frequently that question in parole? How I should answer? Chad GBT broke it down. Answer this question like this. He said, no. Chad GBT said, the only bad thing for you is your disciplinary. He said, your disciplinary is terrible, but I'm going to teach you how to answer it.

And he just told me how to answer it. NYU law school, a couple law students, man. They held me down. Sasha, Mariel, Maddie, they helped me down. So they came to jail, visit me, do mock interviews with me. every week, two, three times a week. They helped me out a lot. Was that a part of like an internship or something they did?

It's an internship for them? I didn't even know. I just got lucky. I was writing lawyers trying to hire a lawyer to help me parole because they had parole lawyers. So I'm trying to hire a lawyer. I'm writing all kind of lawyers and shit like that or waiting for them to be back. And they just wrote me out the blue like, yo, we know you're going to parole soon. We want to help you with this and that.

So I'm like, all right. And they turned out to be a blessing. How did you address the disciplinary stuff? Chad GBT actually told me to tell him like, yo, You know, when I first came to prison, I was still thinking how I was. I was a young man. I was still getting in trouble. And I still had that same mindset with letting me get to prison.

But now that I'm an adult, I think different. I'm changed and, you know, stuff like that. I'm not valid anymore. I'm staying out the way and stuff like that. Do you think you actually meant that? Yeah, I totally did a 360. I seen the old time with that. He was in jail.

When I came to jail, he had about 20 years. So now at this time, he got about 40 years. And he's seen me before when he said, I'm proud of you. He said, you changed a lot. He said, yo, when I first met you, you was terrorist. He said, you changed a lot, man. I'm proud of you. Was there a question that stumped you at all? On the parole board? Yeah. I was so prepared. I actually think the three women was hard on me than the parole was.

They, you know, the mock interviews, sometimes they cursing me out. They being nice. They trying to trick me. So I was prepared. When I went into every question they asked me, I was prepared for. So you end up getting parole? I ended up getting parole, my first board. And when was this? I went to parole board in April so I didn't get home to August 20th So in April I made the parole board

They took like maybe Tewski My answer I actually seen a dude on the bus that I knew A long time ago And he said, where you going? I said, I'm going to meet I'm about to go home soon He said, what?

I saw me my first row He said, I ain't trying to hate him you with none but how the fuck you did that? He said, yo, that's crazy He said, you must got a guardian angel All that shit you done did He said, I got hit at my parole But I'm like, damn

But I'm like, yeah, I made my mom shit I'm out of here. So not April 2006. April 26. I mean, I went to the Provo like April 7th, April 20 if they told me I made it. What, did they give you a letter? Yeah, so actually they call you down to see the counselor. It's like Def Row because it's like everybody went to the Rover that day. It's probably like 20 something dudes down there.

So my last name is Townsend and start with a T. So he's doing an ABC order. So I'm watching everybody come out of Deaf Row with their letter. You go in the office, counsel, to give your closed envelope. You can open it in there if you want. You can open it when you leave. So dude was opening it coming out I got denied

I got denied So I'm like Oh man it's a bad board But I felt good My interview I felt good Like I was making it And I wasn't trying to think negative So when I went in there

For my term I just took the letter PIN to my pocket So she was smiling So I'm like What are you smiling at me for She said Why?

I said why are you smiling at me She said why are you saying that Why don't you open your letter So I'm like Fuck it I just rip it open I'm like oh shit I made it

I ran out totally A by totally counselor I made a pro But she was like you're good You made it How did it? How'd that feel? Felt great, man.

It felt great. That probably one of the best feelings of my life. It's crazy because my counselor is my first time meeting this counselor. Because I had three counselors in the jail. They kept leaving. But she helped me a lot when she'd be preparing a packet for me. She hooked me up. So the gang intelligence sergeant come to me one day before I went to parole board.

He's like, heard you going to parole board. I'm tight. I'm going to fuck this thing in my business. I'm like, who told you that? He's like your counselor. So now I'm mad at her. I'm going to fuck just tell this dude I'm going to my parole board. I don't want this dude to set me up in the night for myself, you know, some bullshit.

So he said, she asked me how you was. So I'm like, oh, shit. He said, I told you good, man, make sure you, you know, you're good, man. Look out for you. You know, you're chilling in here. I'm like, all right. And then she hooked my packet up for me. Were you afraid to come home?

Nah. Nah, I was happy to come home. I mean, I was a little nervous right before I came home. I didn't sleep for the first couple days. by my first last couple days in prison, I didn't go to sleep. But I was happy. I wasn't nervous.

I had no worries. I think, I think, you know, people that do be nervous is, you know, people, a lot of people been in prison long, their family died, their friends died, so they don't know what they're going to do out there. I already know what I'm going to do. I started multiple businesses in jail. I wrote and published two books in prison. I started a clothing line in prison.

I started a gift catalog in prison for myself. So I know I could do anything. How old are you when you got out? How old are you now? I'm 39. years old. 39. So you spent 20 years since you were 19.

20 years in prison. What was the biggest change you noticed of the world when you got out that first day? Girls. I seen girls running around with no clothes. It's still hot. But just everywhere. I seen her old lady looking fire. She probably was 60 years old.

She had a body done. She had a head. I'm like, damn, somebody grandma was out like that. That was like one of the biggest changes. Everything was kind of the same. When I got arrested, that I was. outfit I had on was like the same thing they were in that when I came home. What's the first thing you ate in the free world?

Um, my brother and them came to pick me up. Um, they took me to, uh, like a diner and like brunch. So I had like shrimp and eggs or something like that. I wanted, I wanted McDonald's. Everybody was cursing me out. Like, um, yo, don't get no McDonald's. You thirsty. Why are you getting McDonald's? So I'm like, no, I want some McDonald's. But it was closed for, well, it wasn't closed, but they didn't serve lunch at the time when I got out. They only had breakfast. So I settled for that. Now on 20 years or a 20 to life sentence and you get parole at 20, how long do you have to be on parole for? Well, I have life parole.

I know in New York a lot of times if, you know, stay out of trouble with three, four years, you can be taking off. I have a lot of friends at life parole. They did three years and they're off now. How strict is that? Well, for me, I'm level four. My parole was not that strict. He told me, he said, you know, you did 20 years. You're not really a young dude, so hopefully I ain't got to worry about you.

He said, long as you don't shoot nobody and catch that. new cases, you good with me, man. He said, just stay out the way and chill. I'm like, yeah, I'm good. You know I did a lot of stuff in prison. I told him I was going to Fortune Society, which is an organization that come into prison, they help you transition. They got, like, job readiness training.

Whatever you need when you got to prison reentry, they help you, which I think is one of the biggest things, reentry. But I went in there for one minute. He said, are you good? I'm like, yeah, he's like, you need something. He said, all right, see you on. Next week. Do you think you're actually good, you know, mentally?

Yeah, I think I'm good. You know, I mean, I probably still got my ways. I think I'm anti-social. I probably still like being around people. My little brother in them took me to a club, like my first day. So I'm in there like a weird. I don't drink. I don't smoke.

So I'm in there, where they're giving me bottles. So I'm just holding a bottle. They're like, you're poor shots for girls. I ain't really trying to pour shots for nobody. So girls coming through me, kiss me in the cheek. Welcome home. You know, they got the signs. Welcome home, welcome home.

So I'm just get a bottle to the girl that come past as fire. I'll she fire and take the bottle. You know, I wasn't. So I think that's the only thing with me. I just got to get used to being around people again as a lot of people and not having to watch your back and stuff like that. But I think I'm good. How will you make sure you won't revert back to your old life?

Just trying to stay focused, man. Discipline. I think discipline the same thing, man, because I know that, you know, I can get back to that way easy or fast, you know. a lot of things happen that can take you back. So I'm just trying to stay disciplined, stay out that situation, stay away from that place, with them places, stuff like that.

How will you feel if you are unable to clear your name? I mean, if I don't clear my name, I'm still going to be somebody. I'm working. I'm working hard. I mean, I'm trying to change the narrative. A lot of times when people come from prison, they see you one way. I'm trying to change the narrative. Let them see that, you know,

is people that's in prison that should be home. because 90% of people that's in prison is coming home no matter what. So I feel like we should give them the resources to when they come home. I got a lot of friends in prison that's never coming. I got a lot of friends in prison

hundreds of years that told me I wish I had 25 years like you. I got a lot of friends in prison that's actually innocent, you know? So, I mean, I'm still going to work no matter what. When you reflect back on it, does it feel like 20 years gone? Sometimes no, but I'm like,

damn, I was in jail. Drake whole career. You know, since Drake and I've been in jail. So I'm like, damn, I've really been jail a long time. Since the degrass, he's, days. Since I was in jail. So I'll be like, you know, I was in jail a long time. And I'm like, nah, I wasn't that long. I'm like, yeah, nah, Drake whole career. So now when I'm home and I see people, like, what the hell? You finally out? You've been in jail forever. So they'd be,

I know to them, it probably felt I was in jail even longer than probably felt to me. You feel like you could sleep peacefully? I haven't, I haven't slept yet, man. I've been two weeks. I haven't sleep yet. I sleep for maybe two, three hours a day. It still feel fake sometimes. Sometimes I wake up and look up, peek on my eye, like, oh, shit, I'm really home. Because in prison, I have dreams that I'm in the streets and wake up and I see. the balls like 10. What do you think you missed the most of while you're in prison that you want to accomplish now?

Is that maybe having a family, getting married or something else? I actually got married in prison. I actually got married in prison. But yeah, I definitely want to start a family. I never had kids. I want to have my own kids. It's willing to start business. I want to own things.

I want to be great, man, do great things and make people proud that helped me down my whole time in here. When in prison did you get married? My last couple years, I went to Winnie's. I got married. They never gave me a trailer because I got in so much trouble. So I just putting in it in my application.

They keep denying. I'm just putting it in informally. A little bit after COVID, and I got the Sullivan. I started staying out of trouble. When I went to college, I ended up putting in my application and it got approved.

But I'm just throwing them to bed because I'm used to getting to deny I probably 10 times. I opened in the scene. I start calling all the homies. Oh shit. Yo, Milly. Yo, Gallo.

You, they approved my trailer. Everybody's happy for me. Everybody's happy for me. Yo, shit. They finally let you go on the trailer. How the fuck? They let you on the trailer. How do you guys meet?

I kind of knew her already. They from my neighbor from the style, so I kind of knew already. But one day I called my friend, my home girl, and she like, um, show her you over here. So I'm like, we're putting on the phone. So I ended up talking to her for a little while. I'm just talking every day. And the girl I had at the time, she getting on my nerves.

She vetted me. She's lying. She's coming to visit, not coming, playing games, not answering the phone, no, regular stuff. And I just got tired of and I just started talking to this girl. So you weren't afraid to be married. No, I ain't going front. I'm a family man. So I like, I like, I love being married at the time. I wasn't afraid. I just want to get married. And plus I'm like, you know, maybe I'll go on some trailers and get some.

You know, I ain't, I ain't had nothing in years. How hard was it to adjust to that marriage coming out of prison? I'm not, I'm not actually married no more. Oh, you guys. She couldn't hold it down, man. I wish she would. I appreciate everything she did do for me. You know, she got two daughters called him Amelia. But maybe that's a blessing, you know, and this. guys. I feel like that too. Like maybe now it's a blessing because I don't have to come on and feel like I'm obligated

to her because I'm a person that's lawyer. I got no choice but the whole of down, you know. But now I feel like, yeah, she messed up. That's on her. She's sick. How are your parents? My parents is great. They're happy that I'm home.

They're happy than I'm home, man. It's showing me, man, I love, do everything for me. You know, my mom's still trying to baby me, wash my clothes, cook for me, change my cheats, do everything for me. What would you tell your, you know, 18-year-old self if you could sit across from him today? Pace yourself, man. Don't let this stuff I have fool you because a lot of things we think is real, it's not real. A lot of the, all the people that I noticed that did go to jail when I thought that they

was cool and think they was running jail, told me they'd run. It wasn't running none. They was getting their stuff taken. And it'll fool you, you know, believing like, this is the way, this is what it is. and it's not what it is, it's not the way, and it's, you ain't going to gain nothing. So you could be making all that money then and it only lasts a year or two years

because you're 18, 19, 19, went to prison. And then you're doing the next 20, 25, 30 years. Definitely ain't worth you. You could have got a 9 to 5 into debt. Well, Frashe, I appreciate you coming on the show today. I appreciate you. Yeah, and, you know, welcome home and I hope everything works out for you.

All right, thank you. And we'll have the link to your books and your merch and everything in the description in this episode. All right, thank you. I appreciate you, man. having me. Yeah, of course.