Locked In with Ian Bick - I Was the Rikers Island Gang Intel Boss | Theresa Ramos

Episode Date: October 20, 2025

Theresa Ramos started her career at the Bronx District Attorney’s Office before becoming the Director of Gang Intelligence at Rikers Island, one of the most notorious jails in America. In this interview, Theresa breaks down the truth about gangs inside Rikers, how violence really starts, and what the public gets wrong about the facility. She opens up about recruiting informants, managing gang intelligence, and what changes are needed to make Rikers safer — both for staff and inmates. #RikersIsland #PrisonStories #GangIntelligence #TrueCrimePodcast #CorrectionalOfficers #PrisonDocumentary #LockedInPodcast #NewYorkPrisons Connect with Theresa Ramos:Email: [e-mail] Thank you to BLUECHEW & PRIZEPICKS for sponsoring this episode: Visit https://bluechew.com/ and use promo code LOCKEDIN at checkout to get your first month of BlueChew & pay five bucks for shipping. Prizepicks: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/IANBICK and use code IANBICK and get $50 in lineups when you play your first $5 lineup! Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop Timestamps: 00:00 The Truth About Rikers Island 02:00 Who Is Teresa? From Bronx DA Office to Gang Intel Director 07:00 Growing Up in the Bronx: Survival, Culture & Grit 10:00 Family Influence, Discipline & Early Struggles 13:00 Rebellious Teen Years & Moving to Puerto Rico 21:00 Failing Forward: College Setbacks & Finding Direction 28:00 Discovering Criminal Justice & Real-World Impact 34:00 Working Homicide Cases & a Shocking Family Secret 45:00 Climbing the Ladder: From Admin to Gang Analyst 47:00 First Major Gang Investigation & Breaking Down Intel Work 54:00 Gang Structures, Violence Trends & NYC’s Street War Data 01:03:00 How Gangs Operate in New York: Codes, Power & Rank 01:12:00 Inside Rikers: Corruption, Chaos & Survival Tactics 01:17:00 Recruiting Informants: Strategy vs. Loyalty 01:23:00 Recidivism, Violence & Why the Cycle Continues 01:26:00 Dropping the Flag: When Gang Members Want Out 01:30:00 Can Rikers Be Fixed? Misconceptions vs. Reality 01:33:00 Criminal Justice, Society & What Needs to Change 01:37:00 Final Reflections & What Teresa Learned From It All Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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To find your mochi moment, visit joinmochi.com. Sadie is a mochi member compensated for her story. Then when I get there, it's, okay, is it as bad as people say? Is it as dirty and grimy? Yes, some facilities. Who are the major gangs in New York City? city. Over 90% of the violence that happens on Rikers Island is done by under 30% of people that are on Rikers Island and it's gangs. Now, I've interviewed some of these guys that have served time at Rikers,

and they say so casually how they would cut each other and slice each other and slash each other. What do you think about that? Teresa Ramos started at the Bronx DA's office and rose to become the director of gang intelligence at Rikers Island, one of the most dangerous jails in America. Today, Teresa Ramos reveals the truth about gangs, violence, informants, and what really needs to change inside Rikers. Teresa, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today. I've been chasing you down all week to get you here.

Thank you for having me. We talked about doing this in the beginning of the year. And then you thought I forgot about you. And then you had DM me this week about something. And then I was like, oh, wait, we have to get this episode in because you finally retired. And we made it happen. So I didn't retire officially, but I did leave the agency that I was last that when we spoke.

So, yeah. Well, you're able to finally do an interview. Yes. Because I remember when you told me about what your job was, it was like a tease. You were like, oh, I have this awesome job, but I can't do the interview yet. But you're our first female, I would say, from Rikers Island. Besides that Justina episode we did, who worked in the psychological unit. Okay.

But you're the first, I would guess, correctional officer type. I know that wasn't your exact role, but in that area of Rikers Island. So, yeah, I was the former director. of the Correction Intelligence Bureau. So I would be considered a civilian boss. Okay. But working with the correctional officer there? Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome. Well, everyone on the show, the word that has come on the show and the listeners love the Rikers Island stories. So we're excited to hear about that later in this episode. Where'd you grow up? Born and raised in the Bronx. Okay. What was that like?

It was great, you know, middle class family. At least what I thought to be middle class, you know, I didn't, venture out too far from where my home was. So I wasn't like around all these like buildings and projects. I actually didn't see like my first projects. So I was like like 10, 11, 12. Like it was just houses. And then once we figured out that we were just kind of in the middle of like really being in the hustle and bustle of being in the Bronx, that was kind of eye opening. But yeah, I would say normal Bronx middle class upbringing. Who'd you grow up with? Both parents?

No, my parents were divorced when I was very young, but grew up with my mom's side. A lot of, lots of cousins, aunts, uncles. My grandmother raised me for the most part. So her house was like the central house that everyone just kind of went to. What did your parents do for work? My mother worked for the federal government. My father, not so much. I would say he was like a businessman, very, you know, different jobs.

Okay. Anyone in the family working corrections or law enforcement at all? So, yeah, half of my family worked. I would say we were public servants. I wouldn't just jump in and say law enforcement, but half of my family were public servants. So for the city of New York, that could mean working for, you know, city courts, the state, NYPD. So some law enforcement. And like I said, my mom worked for the federal government at the time.

She worked for the U.S. Marshals. And then I had half of my family that was on the other side of law enforcement. Did that inspire you to get into law enforcement yourself? Definitely. Like, in the long run, yes. Because I just didn't realize how much it was part of my upbringing. It was just kind of second nature. It's not what I wanted to do when I was growing up.

But as I got older, it definitely was the inspiration for me doing, you know, getting into the field. What did you want to do when you were young? So when I was really, really young, I drew, so I was into doing illustrations. I wanted to draw comic books. I will say my dad got me into comic books very young. So I wanted to work, I wanted to be an illustrator for Marvel, Marvel Comics. As I got older, I wanted to be a mortician. And then that kind of came and went. And then I thought for sure, like in high school, that I was going to sign up and go to the Marine Corps because I was in the junior ROTC program. And I was like, this is it. This is what I'm doing.

And then that didn't pan out. So I had a bunch of different things that I wanted to do growing up. Why'd that interest you, the Marine Corps? Because I, so I got into the ROTC program in high school. And it was just, it was structured. It was very, I mean, high school. of itself is very clickish, but you belonged to something. It was, like I said, it gave me that structure. I had friends that were also in the ROTC program. The colonel at the time, he was a great

guy, very, made you feel very family-oriented, and he's like, there's a cop waiting for you. I was like, you're right, sir, I'm going to go. And then I just didn't. Like, you know, my third year of high school, I was just acting up. And my mom sent me to Puerto Rico to live because she couldn't handle me. And I did not follow through with it. It's probably one of my, I don't say biggest regret, but it's definitely one of the regrets I have because it was such a structured way of being. And I probably needed that back then. Why do you think you were lashing out at that age? Probably general teenage rebellion that, you know, most teens go through. Being with a single parent and obviously seeing things in hindsight now as an adult and seeing how my mother did try and she was probably doing the best that she could.

Like I said, my grandmother raised me. So we had a very different dynamic, like my mother and I and then like my grandmother and I. So, you know, I saw her more as a sister mother as opposed to like that is my, that's my parent. I listened to her and, you know, I would just listen more to my grandmother. So, you know, I gave her a hard time growing up, you know, I can see that now. What was Puerto Rico like going over there for the rest of your schooling? So if you want to call it that. So she ships me over there and I'm like, this is going to be great.

I'm going to be with my dad's side of the family. They lived on the coast. So it was just beach every day, every day, every day, every day. and like the fourth, fifth month in, I'm like, you know, I have to go to school, right? I was like, you have to put me in school. I can't just, like, be out here and not do anything. And he's like, all right, you know, let's get you into school. He had no idea how to get me into, like, school over there.

And I think back then it was called like a university. So a university for us is like four years of college. And over there, I think their high school is called university. And, you know, I think we visited. like one school. And that was that. So like living with my dad was like living with like another teenager. Like he just had no idea what to do with me. And I was like, yeah, I got to go to school. I think I'm ready to go back to New York. So after a few months of living over there, I was like, mom, I'm ready to come back home. Do you think your life would have turned out differently if you

were raised by your dad fully all those years? Absolutely. I will say I always give him credit that when I was younger, he was there for the moments that I needed him to be there as a young female. You know, even though he kind of raised me, well, didn't raise me, but when he was part of my life was, he made me like, I was like a tomboy, you know? I was reading comic books. I was into like action movies. I was like, you know, the son he didn't have.

So I credit him for that because, you know, it was like a wake-up call. It was, you know, it exposed me to different things. But as I got older, he just was not like the best father figure, you know. And that's probably because he needed some growing up to do himself. But again, hindsight is 20-20. So you don't see that until you get older. How would you have described yourself during your teenage years? Definitely rebellious.

And I think of the reasons why. Like, I had no reason to really be rebellious, you know. I went to a decent high school. I had friends. I had, you know, I had the, you know, I had the. the things that I needed growing up. I don't know why. Like I probably owe my mother an apology for that.

But I think it's just, you know, environment, hanging out with people I probably shouldn't have been hanging out with. That definitely shaped the later part of my teens. But yeah, I would say, you know, it sounds typical, but it was nothing like I couldn't say that anything crazy happened to me to make me want to rebel and lash out, you know. Did you end up going to college? So I did end up going to college. So ironically, I actually dropped out, well, not dropped out of high school, but I got kicked out of high school. And I was placed in what they call an alternative high school. And I only was placed there because I had so many cuts, like cutting class. And they told my parents, well, they told my mother, like, you know, if she's going to have to start like this grade over again. And my mother was like, absolutely not. She's like, absolutely. She was mortified. And even my father. who was still in my life at the time, he was like, even I got a fucking high school diploma.

He was like, are you kidding me? And I'm like, well, I'm not going to like go back to the ninth grade. And this was also in part because I was in high school in Puerto, or I wasn't in high school in Puerto Rico. So like, you know, I had, I was missing some time. All I know is they make me take a test, a very long test. And I score really high on this test. Lo and behold, it's the pre-GED test. So I scored really, really high. And they were like, she can get a her GED. And again, my parents were mortified. They were like, absolutely not. She's going to go to high school. She's going to walk down, you know, cap and gown. And they were like, she's going to have to, like, go back, like a year or two. And I'm like, I don't want to do that. So at 16,

I took my GED. By 17, I was in college. That's way too young to be in college. And I treated my first community college like a club with books. That's exactly what it was. I joined all these, like fraternal organizations and, you know, I was kind of like the same issue I had in high school where I was like this A, B student, and then I was missing all these classes, definitely took it for granted. And then I dropped out. So that college I dropped out of, and then I had to join the working world because I was like, you know, maybe college isn't for me. And it just, I wasn't applying myself. So I didn't go back to college until like full time to like 2000. to nine. So I waited some time to go back. What were you doing in between from when you dropped out

and going back? So when I dropped out the first time, I was 17. So I was 17, 18. Even though I was still going to school, kind of sort of, I was hanging out, literally hanging out, being in things that I had no business being or doing. And then I would get like regular teenage jobs, like, you know, working at the mall and then that wouldn't last because I was like, yeah, I don't want to do this. And then it wasn't until maybe my early 20, so now I'm out of college for, you know, a minute. And I wanted to go back. And then when I wanted to go back to college, I didn't do it. I don't want to say not the right way.

I just went to a different, a private college, which is, you know, kind of like you have to come out of pocket for that. And I said, no, I definitely want to get into digital media. I want to get back to my artistic roots and I want to draw. I want to do these things. and then I went I got into school for that not realizing signing like my first student loan and it was just a mess and I did that for a while and then I had to get a job and then lo and behold I get my first job at the Bronx district attorney's office why did that interest you because I had an aunt that work there and she was like give me your resume and I needed a job and it was a very entry level like I worked in human resources.

sources. It was, you know, I was pushing papers. I mean, obviously, like, I knew how to, like, read, write type. I could do that. My interest for criminal justice wasn't there yet. This was just a job. And I had very different jobs. So, like, when I mentioned working at the mall, I also worked at, like, the raceway, and I was doing numbers. And, like, you know, I had no idea what a trifecta was, but I was doing the data for that. And I needed, like, a real job. So I had an aunt who said, you know, I work at the DA's office, and I've been there a few years. why don't you give me your resume? I said, okay, gave her my resume, I interviewed, I got hired the same day in human resources. So I was, that plants the seed, but I didn't realize, again,

that criminal justice was going to be my passion until a year after being hired in the DA's office. The homicide chief then was looking for a bureau liaison, which is an admin person for their unit and I was the HR person assigned to, you know, looking through resumes and hiring people and screening. And this man must have went through like 15 people. And not just like 15 resumes. Like he interviewed like 15 people. It was like so many people. And I jokingly told him, I'm like, if you don't pick someone, I'm going to interview for it. And he goes, all right, come upstairs. So I go upstairs. I meet the chief of homicide. He interviews me and he hires. And he hires. me, that was the true seed that blossomed into my passion for criminal justice.

What do you think got into your head to even put yourself out there to do that? You know, I don't know. I think it was I built a rapport with him, you know, dealing with me, like building the rapport with him to find what he was looking for. And I'm like, what's so special about this job that you can't just hire someone from this pool? And he would kind of tell me what the tasks were. And I thought, I could do that. I could do that. And yeah, sure enough, like I said, I went upstairs. He interviewed me. And as I'm sitting in his office, you know, he has his awards. He has his degrees. He has cases that, very notable cases that he worked on. And they're hanging like daily news clippings that are they're framed. And I just kind of looked.

And I'm like, okay. And it wasn't until, excuse me, it wasn't until I started working for him that I'm now situated in my desk, which is outside of his office. And I look back at the daily news clipping that he had on his wall. And it is of a homicide case that he tried of, for lack of a better term, a serial killer in the Bronx. And it was a relative of mine. Had no idea. And I kept looking at the frame. I'm like, that guy, looks so familiar. I don't know where I know him from, but I was like, that guy looks familiar. And lo and behold, it was a relative of mine that he tried. He was the prosecutor on that case. And it was that catapulted his career, but it made him a very notable prosecutor. And it got him, you know, tons of coverage at the time. This was the 90s in New York City. And when I left as well, I didn't tell him immediately. I had spoken to another colleague and I was like, yeah, I think I should tell him. I know the guy that's on the wall. And she's like, the killer. And I'm like, uh-huh. I'm like, yeah, that's like a relative of mine. She's like, oh, no, you need to go in there and tell him right now.

So I go back in his office and I'm like, you know, funny story. But that guy on the law, that's like, and it's like a distant relative. It's like my mother's cousin's cousin, but it was still very notable in my family, right? And he just starts telling me about the case. And this case is over 30 years old at this point. And he's like, that's your cousin. I was like, well, loosely. I was like, you know, like twice removed. And he was like, yeah, you know, his and he starts telling me, like, you know, his problem was like he kept inserting himself into the investigation.

And I'm like, listen, we don't even acknowledge him. It's like one of those taboo things, right? It's, it was one of those things that was, it's tragic and traumatic and it is, you know, horrendous. really that's what it was horrendous and it was not one of the things that you speak of proudly but it happened and you can't deny that it happened and I was very very young at the time and as he's describing parts of the investigation he starts describing the the vehicle that my cousin was driving and in that vehicle were the fibers of clothing of one of the victims.

And I said that's the same vehicle that he drove my mother and I die from a funeral of another family member. He drove us in that vehicle. And I remember because it was like red leather interior and it just, I was, again, I was like maybe six or seven. But something about the red leather interior stuck out. And I remember it. And, you know, to hear that that was one of the vehicles that he used in his house. his crimes was like, oh my God. And at the time, he lied and he told my mother he was like an FBI agent or something. Like he had like a badge and everything. And my mother working for the federal

government was like, oh, I work for the federal government too. And of course, nobody knew this like double life he was leading. So we were very, very shocked. I didn't understand it at the time because I was a kid. But as I got older, and then of course, then working for the prosecutor that prosecuted him and got him like three life, three consecutive life sentences. It was, I was just in awe. I was in awe because I'm working for the man that did it. And then, you know, who just brings up that they have a serial killer cousin, right? Like, where do you fit that in? You weren't lying when you said you have family from both sides of the spectrum. Yeah, yeah. Guys, let's be honest for a second. Confidence is everything in life and business and

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doesn't just start from the top up. Let me go grab some Blu chew before I get back into today's episode. So, you know, again, it's you don't deny that it happened, but you don't breathe life into it as if it's something, you know, like obviously I only bring it up if, A, if I'm asked about it. But other than that, you know, it's, it's horrible, like horrible to have seen that to also, again, I had other family members that did work for the criminal justice system at that same time. And, you know, to be on one side and to be advocates for victims, for victims' families, and then to have that also happen in your family, you know, it's, I could only imagine for my family

member at the time, how tough that could have been. You feel torn, you know? Tell us about the job once you started there. So once I started there, it was very mundane admin work. And when I think about the cases that were probably going on at the time when I was there, I really didn't appreciate you know, like we had like top gang cases that were happening at the time. And I was just oblivious to it because that wasn't, again, my focus wasn't on that. I was, you know, keeping stats of homicide cases and, you know, just doing admin work. And I just remember being so underpaid working for the city. And I'm like, I'm like, this is crazy. I couldn't go to Manhattan and make like double. And that's so that's what I did. So I left. And I loved working there. I loved the people there. and I loved my unit. And again, in hindsight, I was like, I was already part of gang's major case homicide. That people wait their career to get into that unit.

And even though I was just admin, there were probably other things that I could have aspired to. But you just, you don't think that when you're young. You're just like, want to make money. And, you know, who cares that I have a safe union job? And I was like, I want to go to Manhattan. I can make double. So I did. And I went to work for a law.

firm and I was making double the money. You know, I was off of like Madison Avenue. Like I was, you know, doing it up, as they say. And I was still calling my old job like, so what are you guys doing? Are you guys in the conference room? What's happening? And I wanted to come back after like six months. I was like, okay, I'm ready to come back home. I was like, I don't want to do this. And then when I applied, I was told, yeah, no, you need a bachelor's degree now. And I said, I just left like six seconds ago. And they were like, yeah, no, you need a degree. And I was like, okay.

So that kind of put the fire in my belly to go back to college. But because I had dropped out in a not responsible way, an irresponsible way, I had to start from scratch. And that was like the longest journey. So I would take any job, any side hustle that I could while, you know, going. back into college and having to take, you know, these remedial classes and, you know, professors telling me like, didn't you take algebra? I was like, actually, I didn't. I probably have, like, a 10th grade education. And they were surprised at that. I was articulate. I knew, like, I was a good student, but I technically only had a 10th grade education. And it was a struggle for

me when I went back to college. And so now I'm back in college. I'm taking criminal justice, because I was like, duh, I'm going to take criminal justice classes. And I was like, you know, know what, if I come back, it's going to be as an assistant district attorney. I'm not going to be a regular secretary. And I was in school for a long time, like a long time. And because I had to start from scratch. And they don't tell you when you have a GED that if you score really high, you can go straight into a four-year college. They always let you believe, like, yeah, you get your GED. And then you could do a two-year college. And then you go into a four-year. So I had scored like maybe five points away from the highest that you can on a GED. which was amazing since I only had a 10th grade education. I didn't know that. I didn't know that I could go straight into a four-year college. So I went the long route, the extremely long route. And then I said, you know what?

I'm going to do law school. So then I started studying for my outset. As I'm doing these, as I'm studying for that, I'm now taking city exams because now I'm like, okay, I need to get back into the city and I get a job with NYPD. Again, admin type position, but I'm working in a police precinct. seeing, you know, firsthand what it is that police officers deal with on a daily basis. I'm dealing with the public, which I kind of already was, I don't say I was dealing with the public when I worked in homicide, but you would deal with victims, family members and you were exposed to some things,

not to the level that I was working in a precinct. That was every day, like day in and day out. You're dealing with the public. And you're also dealing with, you know, police officers and that whole culture there. And, but I was focused. I was just like. Like I need to finish my bachelor's. I need to, you know, study from my LSAT. So that's what I was doing. And then I'm like, I don't say I'm job hopping at this time because I'm like, all right, this is, I need to do something else.

And then I get called into the feds for a little attempt position. So I'm like, oh, this is, this is the natural progression. I leave NYPD. I go to the feds. And I'm now enrolled in a pre-law, well, it's law school. It's your JD and your masters. And I said, okay, I'm just, I'm going to do both. And it was like the first time they had this program in the college I was in.

And I was like, I don't want to go to law school. After I made a whole big commotion and I took my L-SAT and I was like, I don't want to do this. And I just stuck with doing the master's portion of the program. My position in the Fed ends. I then go to the Brooklyn DA's office and I'm working nights. I'm working bin nights. and I'm going to school and, you know, I'm like, you know, stretched thin, but I'm following a dream that I don't know what the dream is. And I'm like, I don't know what I'm going to do with this degree that I'm like, what am I working towards?

And then when I finish, that's when I go back finally to the Bronx District Attorney's Office as an intelligence analyst. That is what sparks. It's like I waited my whole life to start that position. and that's where I find my purpose. And what does an intelligence analyst do? So there's, I didn't know what they did at first because I said, what's this? It's, it's investigations. At its core, you're an investigator.

And it's gathering, analyzing, synthesizing information. In a nutshell, that's what an intelligence analyst does. that title was relatively new to me and also to the field of criminal justice for the most part, at least in New York City it was. They can tell you, yo, we've had intel analysts all these years. I had never heard of one. And I was like, I think I could do this. And I apply.

I get hired. And I'm like, all right, I now have my master's. The salary is still low in New York City. But I knew that it's something that I wanted to do. so I dedicated myself. Within the first few months of me going back, they immediately put me back in homicide because some of the same people that were there the first time I was there in 2004, they're in homicide still.

So it just made sense to put me back where I started. And a few months into that, there was a notorious gang homicide that takes place of a young teenager that gets, chased into a bodega and he's stabbed numerous times by a gang, a well-known gang, and that became my case. I was the first analyst. I was the only analyst assigned to that case. And that is where I just started following my passion for gangs and doing a lot of gang

cases. I still was working on homicide cases. Any homicide that happened in New York City, well, excuse me, in the Bronx, between 2018 and 2023, I touched. At some way, somehow I was involved. But the gang cases is what became kind of like my forte there. Now, are you only picking up a case once it's referred for prosecution and it goes to the DA's office? Or are you a part of the investigative team with the police department?

No, once. So, yes, for the most part, once it's assigned to the DA's office. Like once there's a suspect? Once there's a suspect, P-O-I, before the arrest, because sometimes it'll come to you before, or it'll be brought to the DA's office before there's an arrest and there's still an investigation. And for those instances where someone wasn't arrested just yet, yes, you assist in, you know, you assist in the ways that you can as an intel analyst. And are you guys making sure that the police have the right person too before you guys charge a suspect?

So the police have to make sure that we have the right person. That's their job is to make sure that there's proper identification. But yes, I would like to believe that everyone does their due diligence and a very thorough job in making sure that you have the correct person when you're, you know, pursuing and putting all these efforts into a case. And again, I'm dealing with homicide. So it's like it's the most serious of a case that you can investigate, right? But yeah, you would make sure that you have the correct person. And your job is specifically like the evidence looking over that, matching it with like, say, exhibits and everything when it goes to trial, if it goes to trial too? So sometimes it would be a lot of, a lot of my work would be the exhibits.

So for instance, early in my career, I was doing what they call like CDR, like call detail records and creating maps of the locations in question. And, you know, if you have a cell phone, I was in charge of, you know, making sure that your cell phone matched the records that were given and, you know, creating court demonstrative. So things that were used for trial ultimately. And also assisting the detectives in their, if the investigation is ongoing and, you know, whatever they're giving you at the time, you're just trying to assist and create whatever they need. And just kind of like keeping the flow of things. And you're working in real time as you're getting these things, especially if it's a case where you're looking for an active defendant or suspect, I should say. Are you given a badge and a gun, too, in this position? No.

Straight civilian position. And how does law enforcement look at you? As an intel analyst. Yeah, like say a police officer or a detective. I would say they look at you as a, I mean, you're a civilian. and you're you're behind a computer. You're in an office. You're not out there.

I'm not running the streets with them. I would assume they look at you as part of the team, but they are the law enforcement part of the team. Do you go to the actual crime scene? It depends. Having been from the Bronx, I've stumbled upon the crime scene just walking to work. But no, normally you do not, but you can.

You can. At that point, I want to say a year into my position, I had already become a supervisor. So I wasn't, there are cases where they would bring the intel analyst to the scene or to, you know, like, assist with some things. And I know they do this in other DA's offices as well. But I was already a supervisor and I had my hand in many different things. So it's not like I could just drop what I was doing to go to a scene. But if there was something close by and unfortunately, there was. were things happening like right around a courthouse.

Yeah, you could literally walk to a crime scene. But most times, probably not, because there are so many things you were working on. You couldn't just pick up and go and go with a detective to go to a crime scene. Who are the major gangs in New York City? Right now, I would say, and this is going to be a very vague overview because I know not everyone like can go in depth. But it's definitely bloods, crips, Trinitarios, folk nation. Honorable mentioned maybe to Latin Kings because they still, while they still exist, they just don't have the numbers that they do in the street. I would also say you have a handful of Mexican gangs as

well that have, they've been around for years and they've had, you know, their dealings with the criminal justice system as well. But those four main ones, those are the ones making noise right know. Before working in that position, did you realize how dangerous New York City could be? I knew because I worked in homicide. So I knew that there were dangers of, you know, people killing each other and, you know, what you see the worst of what human beings can do to one another, seeing children be victims of homicide, you know, spouses, family members, what family members do to one another. So I kind of knew. I didn't get a full grad. and understanding of it until I worked it my second time around coming back to the DA's office.

Do you think the public knows of how many of these cases actually happen? Or is it kind of just not necessarily put out there? No, I think people say that they want full transparency. I don't think many people could handle it if they knew what was really happening on a everyday basis. And this is not to say that people that grow up. in urban areas, like, you know, even though I grew up in what I would consider a middle class like neighborhood, my hood was still the hood, right? And you could talk to someone and they would say,

nah, this happens all the time. This happens all the time. Sometimes, no, it doesn't happen all the time. And people are, they would be shocked if they saw what other people were doing to one another. I think now we've become a bit more desensitized to things. So you see it more now. You see, I think, way more violence now. Yeah, you see, like, those stats on social media where it says, like, how many shootings happen a day and say New York City or the big cities. And then it'll be a post like today, there was no shootings in a certain city. And they're commending that. And you can compare that to how many actually happen.

It's pretty nuts. Right. So, and it's funny as someone who was in charge of doing stats, I would do stats for homicides, non-fatal shootings, and what we call shots fired. So like nobody would get hit, but there would be a system that kind of tracks if they would hear a shooting or what they would think is a shooting from a gun. And I say that to say because the – I don't know if I want to say the name of the company. But I mean, it is known in law enforcement. It's shot spotter. But sometimes they would hear like the backing up of a car and then that sound could come over as a shots fired.

But technically it wasn't. Or a firecracker could come. off as that, but that's not what it was, obviously. So when I say a shot from a gun, that's what I mean. But those stats, you know, you can only record what's reported, right? So if you can say that you've had like zero crime that day, that's amazing. If you could say you had zero shootings that day, that's amazing. You know, there's also, you know, stats. I don't want to say stats are tricky. because in essence, numbers are numbers and you can't, you know, it is what it is, so to speak, right? But for instance, if you had, you know, someone who was shot and then they die, like weeks later or years later, that number now gets added.

Like, you now have to count that. So now you go back to that year and it's like crime can rise. And you're like, I don't remember crime being that bad. Well, you know, the guy died now from being shot 20 years ago, five years ago. So that's the tricky part with dealing with, you know, stats and numbers and things like that. And someone's actually tracking that and logging it back in for years before? I believe so. I believe, like, I can only go off like in NYPD. I want to say their reporting system goes back to like, even though they have physical reports from like the 70s that were like typed up with a typewriter. In the computer, I want to say it went back to like 1995.

So if you wanted to pull records from then on, you could do that. I wasn't doing that. But I'm sure there's someone out there that's amazing with numbers that can do that. But I know they do keep extensive amounts of data and numbers to keep track of when they make the comparisons of how safe it is, how safe the city is from this year, from the previous year. This episode is brought to you by prize picks. The easiest and most fun way to play daily fantasy sports. You and I make decisions every day.

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prize picks it's good to be right now most of these are only numbers that are actually reported right like I look at like I say Dan Barry will put their numbers and how many robberies this in the city that's only they're only using those numbers of what was reported it could only be of what was reported because how else would you know yeah so a crime could essentially be worse in a way in some areas oh yeah you can people probably can be assaulted every day but unless someone is making that report and it's It's actually being filed and it becomes an actual, you know, complaint report with NYPD and is then, you know, not to say that everyone is going to get prosecute for it, but, you know, that's the only way that you can actually know that something took place. What do you think surprised you the most about that position being in it?

Working in homicide. Yeah. Probably just the lengths people would do to kill someone. Like, it was surprising. after. I mean, this is like my first time working in homicide. I would say that was probably, I was like, wow, he really wanted to kill this person. Or wow, they did all this just to get to this person. Or wow, this was an accident or this was not supposed to happen and look at the outcome to that. Now it's kind of like, hmm, I'm not as surprised. It would take a lot to really

surprise me in that field. You've probably seen people get killed over very frivolous things too. Absolutely. Like, I see some of these stories and it's just, it's It doesn't make sense why you would even kill someone over that. Senseless. It's, I mean, I say that even about, like, gang homicides now, even though it's, you know, the overall subtext is gangs, right? But it's still senseless to me because it's like, this is what you want to throw your life away for. Yeah.

But I've also seen very, like, frivolous, like, you know. I'm trying to think, like, what's one that's just completely sent. I mean, people bumping each other, people, you know, someone stepped on a sneaker. Just absolutely senseless. How long were you in that unit for? The first time was a couple years. My last, the last position, I was there for five, six years before I went to DOC. Why did you decide to leave?

I decided to leave because I was presented with an opportunity to go to the Department of Correction. as a director of a gang intel unit. And at that point in my career, I felt that I had worked so many cases. I had, you know, really delved into what I found to be my passion. And it made sense for the trajectory of my career. And it took a while, you know, I was, I jokingly say that I was, like, stalked. And then I went over.

But it took months for the person in DOC to, like, convince me to, like, convince me to, to come over because I was like, listen, I'm good. I'm in the Bronx. Like, I know what I'm doing here. And I have my little queendom and I'm good, you know. And then it was like, no, you could like do so much more. And you and I was really sold a dream, really truly sold a dream. And it was not what it seemed. But it's part of the plan, right? It's part of the overall plan that the universe had for me. So I, I I left and then I became the director of the, I say, we say gang intel, but everyone knows when you say gang intel. It's the correction intelligence bureau, but it's really gang intel.

Now in the feds, we, that they called SIS, like special intelligence something. Is that kind of like what you did or is you're strictly gangs? So I believe the name, so it used to be called GIU, so it was gang intel unit. And then when other bosses got there, they changed it to the correction intelligence bureau because it became more encompassing. It wasn't just gangs that they did. It turned into like an intel and an intel team and then a team doing arrests. And I believe that happened after the late Bernard Carrick went back to DOC and he started implementing a program, I don't say a program. the unit was to re-arrest inmates that were committing crimes on Rikers Island. So once he did that,

then the Correction Intelligence Bureau also dealt with that. So it wasn't just gangs. It was, you know, it's part of it, but they did way more than just gang intel. Did they put you through correctional officer training? No. I came in as a supervisory level, director level, and I didn't go through any correctional officer training. Do you think that was a good thing or a bad thing? Well, good because I'm old. But it's different. I think it's different when you're a managerial level.

I know that I've come across this so many times in my career where, you know, I've worked with many detectives, many, you know, officers, correction officers, even before I got to DOC. And they would say, why didn't you just get on the job? Why didn't you just take it? Because I didn't. I wanted to do law. I thought this is what I wanted to do. So I know that there's this, they see it as like almost two different worlds of being uniform and being a civilian, right? I am a civilian, but I came in as a civilian boss. And, you know, I, for what I wanted to do or for what my job was, it didn't entail having to do, you know, the physicalness of what, you know, correction officers do on the day to day, which to me. To me, to me, they're also unsung heroes and they do so much, they catch a lot of flack unnecessarily. And they do probably one of the hardest jobs of the New York City agencies. Who are you overseeing? Was it correctional officers or more civilians? It was both. It was correctional officer investigators and the civilians that were assigned to evidence collection. They had just started implementing bringing in civilian investigators,

but there was only a handful of those. But it was mainly uniform staff and the evidence collection text. Did you find it hard for the correctional officers to respect you because you were an outsider? Someone that didn't go through like say correctional officer training and whatnot? I would say there were some who knew me. Like I actually worked with some of like the gang intel guys when I was at the Bronx DA's office. And they knew I knew gangs. And that, you know, I was also mentored by.

And I'm always biased when I say this, but one of the best gang investigators hands down that came out of Rikers Island. And, you know, I worked with a gang investigator and a gang captain on the Trinitonario case. And they taught me everything that I knew. And as they were teaching me, they would introduce me to their staff. Their staff wound up becoming my staff in the future, lo and behold, right? Which I didn't know. And those who worked with me, they know my work ethic. They knew I knew what I was talking about.

And if I didn't know, I wanted to learn. Those officers I had no issues with. I would almost say I didn't have that many officers that challenged me in that aspect. It was probably more supervisory staff, people on my level or above that were like, where did she come from? So for the most part, I would like to believe, unless they're saying it now. But for the most part, officers did not give me, at least the ones that I worked with, didn't give me a hard time about that. What was your expectation of Rikers versus what was the reality of Rikers when you got there? Oh, that's a loaded question.

So having worked on cases that dealt with defendants that were still on Rikers Island and being exposed to COs that had, you know, criminal cases that were happening on, right? Because I didn't work on those directly, but they were involved some way, somehow, on cases that I worked on. They were far and few in between. So there was that reality of like, okay, I know they have cases and, you know, you're going to have bad apples, you know, so to speak. And then I had this expectation of I worked with really great investigators from DOC, like,

beyond phenomenal that taught me. I wouldn't be who I was or I wouldn't have gotten to the places that I did the second part of my career had it not been for the way they trained me and just the jobs that they did, right, and just instilling that knowledge in me. So I had really high expectations going in for my unit specifically. And then when I get there, it's okay is it as bad as people say is it as dirty and grimy and yes for some some facilities uh because then i started to tour and go into different you know jails um so it's it's it's a mixed bag um it was as i don't say dysfunctional but let's just say for lack of a better term um for a city agency I did expect a bit more structure.

But it was definitely a mixed bag. So it was definitely 50-50. You know, were people adding to it? Yes. Were some of the things they were saying about Records Island? Very true. Yes. It just depends on where you went and what you were doing.

But I had high expectations for some areas of that position. And then some that I had to learn to lower my expectations. I mean, Kana, realistically, Kana, facility like Rikers ever be 100% fully functionalable when you have so many different, you know, types of staff, you have different personalities, you have different leadership, you have different people in command. And I think that goes for like the prison system in general too. Yeah. I, the optimistic side of me wants to say yes because you'll always hear Rikers Island is a beast, a beast in and of itself, period. Hands down, it's, it's a monster, right? Um,

I do think that because it's been left to its own devices for so long, there are things that occur there. And it's not to say that things don't happen in other city agencies because you hear this. You know, you have people that are not happy with the way their city agencies are in or you do deal with bureaucracy and politics. And that is everywhere. I think Rikers could be better. Do I think that it could be 100%? No agency is 100% you know can function without something happening, right? At least in New York City that I've been a part of. Do I think it could be ran better? A thousand percent. Do I think that, you know, it starts, even if you have the different, you know, you have staff that are, you know, civilian, uniform, you have different agencies that are also working on Rikers Island. I do think it, they could tell. tighten up. And where there's a will, there's a way. It's so easy to just kind of want to throw it away and say, you know, like close Rikers. That's not the answer either. They should

invest as much into that, the facilities there. Because I know when we say Rikers Island, we think it's just like one facility. It's many facilities on the island. I believe if the right leadership was there and they invested back into the staff, back into the facilities, back into the units that are doing something to prevent violence, to monitor violence, to even to programs for inmates. If there was an investment there, like completely, like throw your resources in there from the city, state, whatever, I think Rikers Island could be an impeccable facility being ran. For the history that it has, you can definitely turn it around with the right people.

No, I've interviewed multiple correctional officers that say that the gates on the doors don't even work there. Is that true? So, yes. So I want to say like nine months into my position in being a director in the gang intel unit, I was then brought over in a lateral move to work under an executive boss for, he was like the number two for all of Rikers Island. It was there that I was more exposed to those gripes, those faulty things that were happening and, you know, things that I just wasn't aware of because my focus was on one thing. But yes, there were things that could simply be fixed by having the unit that comes to fix the doors, fix the doors. It wasn't, in my experience, it's not like I saw an inmate just flick open and like just leave. But there were doors that needed to be fixed, and it should have been a priority. As a gang intel director, what was the most common case that came across your desk?

So I would say, so it's not like things would come across my desk, so to speak. If it would be more so you have staff officers that are assigned to different facilities, and they, in a perfect world, they would know their facilities like the back of their hand. they would know the inmates that they have there, like the back of their hand, especially the notable ones. And if there was a gang involved or SRG involved, stabbing, slashing, an incident of fight, that's kind of what would come across, like, that type of incident. You get a notification for that.

So that's first and foremost, what you're paying attention to are acts of violence. that happened immediately. In my case, I was also trying to do other initiatives on Rikers Island, like to try to quell the violence and stuff like that. So that involved working with like our federal partners, our city and state partners. So I kind of had like, it was a mixed bag of things that I would work on. So would I be aware of slashing and stabbings? Yes, staff handles that.

The same staff would do an investigation. And then we had an arrest team that would go and make these. arrest and then bring it over to the DA's office for prosecution. And because my former employment, the Bronx DA's office, had jurisdiction over Rikers Island, it just, again, these things made sense for me to work on because I'm familiar with both. And it was, it should have been seen as a benefit to have someone that worked coming from the DA's office to also work on Rikers Island that can kind of, you know, bridge that gap. But with that said, there were many other initiatives I was trying to do.

So because there was so much violence on the island, I wanted to do larger gang cases. And it's not to say that I was just looking for gang cases to do. They would essentially fall in your lap because of the violence that was happening. You have inmates that are causing crazy amounts of violence on the island. And then you have inmates that they just want to do their time. They want to be able to focus on their case. And, you know, go to trial and go home. And though, you know, you deserve to be safe.

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Top of those things. as much as you can be. Why do you think there is so much violence on Rikers Island? So it's funny because when I was working for that executive boss, we looked into those numbers and we looked into those incidents. And, you know, this was someone who he ran many prisons. He ran ADX. Rikers Island should have been a walk in the park for him.

Not to say that it wouldn't have been, but, you know, whatever politics were playing that were above my pay grade didn't allow him to really. delve into that, to quelling that violence the way you probably could have. But in the interim, we were looking at what the issues were. And over 90% of the violence that happens on Rikers Island is done by under 30% of people that are on Rikers Island. So, and it's gangs. So they cause the largest amount of violence. And it can be, the motives can be from anything from gang related to, you know, what they call, like, undertones of other motives, you know, it's not like, it's, oh, someone stole my food or, and it could be.

It's not to say that that doesn't exist, but that's not what I was concentrating on. The more violent things that you saw happen were usually gang-related. And if it wasn't gang-related, you would have to find the motive as to why that it heard. What's Riker's strategy for separating the gangs? Like I'll interview some gang members where they say a blood accidentally goes in a Crip unit or vice versa and that causes violence on itself right there. So the thing, you know, it's like when people say, well, you know, it's a blood house or it's, you're not taking into account that you have so many subsets of the bloods that are on the island. And it's like they're fighting amongst themselves. Just like if you

go in a Crip house. And to be clear, there's not a blood house. a crip house, it's supposed to be blended. So that's technically what's supposed to happen. And a blended house means you have exactly what it sounds like. It's a blend of people from different gangs that are gang affiliated, that have self-identified as gang members, and they're placed in a house, in a housing area together. When you have infighting amongst the bloods, you know, to me, it's very dangerous. You can have five, let's just say five different sets of, you know, blood sets.

If they truly wanted to band together, you now have five blood sets that could overtake an entire housing unit. So, you know, the blending has to be very careful. You know, they have to be very careful how they do that. But it's not just supposed to be one gang in and of itself. It's supposed to be, you know, properly blended. But the inmates kind of take it upon themselves to, make them not blended themselves? You definitely have inmates that manipulate a move, as they say, or, you know, when they're getting,

when they're coming in intake and, you know, you assess them, you ask them what they are. And, you know, and I've said this in other interviews I've done where you have inmates that they may or may not be truthful with, you know, NYPD when they're involved in whatever their case is beforehand and whatever they tell that person before they get to Rikers Island nine times out of ten, they're going to be very honest or they should be very honest when they come to Rikers Island because what you are and what you jack will determine where you can be placed or how safely, right? That's also a reality. And when they come in, you'll see, they'll look for their friends. Like, yo, put me with my man. Yo, you know, like, yo, can I land here? And, you know, when you talk

to them, and it's a lot of code switching that you do, rid. So I have to go from. being, you know, supervisor to, you know, all right, so what are you? Right? Are you going to be honest or not? Like, help me help you, right? And I would, there's, it's not many times that I would be in those facilities with my staff that are doing the actual assessments. But when I want, when I first got there, when I first started to tour and then also when I just would go because I wanted to tour that day, because I felt like it, I would sit in and see how they would assess them. And I would then have conversations if I wanted to. I didn't want to make it too hot by having, you know, a boss there, like, oversee. I wasn't micromanaging my staff. I just had my own vested interest

because I was trying to do cases as well, right? And you would see if the person would be honest and what is that they are. And most of the time they are because they don't want to go to an area that would be unsafe for them or they would ask if they could go with their friends or where their cut. Where's my man's at? He was like, oh, can I go here? Can I go? there. It's not, you don't cater to them in that sense, but you also don't purposely put them somewhere where they know that they could be in danger, if that makes sense. So you don't get to tell me where you're going, but let me know what you are so I can make sure that I'm not going to put you somewhere or that you're not going to be placed somewhere that is not beneficial

to you or could be a danger to you. Some probably also don't want to claim who they are if they're fighting their case and they don't want to admit that they're gang affiliated, if that could come back to bite them. definitely see that. But if we're talking about your safety, you're going to have to say what you are because it's going to come out eventually. Unless you can lay low the entire time that you're on the island and someone usually knows you or they speak or they're going to try to, you know, look at your paperwork or whatever the case. And this is like for your own gang. I'm not even talking about like COs. It's going to come out. But if you're able to successfully appear neutral or appear 550,

you can. I have not known anyone to do that in the time that I was. there. And they're really not supposed to deny who they are, if they really go by their oaths. But I get that. You know, if you're trying to fight your case and that's not part of, you know, it makes you look bad. There's, you can also file. There's articles, documents that that DOC has created where you can disassociate yourself and say that you're not gang affiliated. Now, I've interviewed some of these guys that have served time at Rikers and they say so casually how they would cut each other slice each other and slash each other. What do you think about that?

I think it's a culture. There's a culture for staff, and there's a culture for inmates. And it is a way of life. It shouldn't be a way of life, in all honest. It should not be a way of life there, especially with so many reforms that have taken place and all the initiatives that have gone into programming for them. and not just programming to keep them busy, but just like actual programs to bring down the violence.

It shouldn't be a way of life there, and it is. And it's almost like second nature to some. I've had inmates that were pleasant, more than pleasant and respectful with me. And the very next day, they're opening up someone's face. I'm like, now why would you do that? You know, like you don't know what could set someone off, or you do know what could set them off by, you know, know, you, when you go back and you look at the things that probably agitated them and what brought them to that space to want to commit an act of violence and maybe it was preventable.

But for them to do it so nonchalantly, like it's just a regular Tuesday, it's not normal, but when you work on records, you realize that's a normal Tuesday and it shouldn't be. Did you find that the inmates that, you know, put on that tough face and that tough outlook and aspect were actually tough and willing to do something, say violent, or did you find that they were kind of putting on a show and not necessarily that violent? Both. There were some that, again, because of my previous positions in different agencies where I knew them as they were before they were inmates or persons of custody, whatever title you want to give

them, they were my defendants first, right? So, like, I knew them, but they didn't know me. there were some that I saw go from just being adolescent to they're now probably one of the more dangerous crime drivers on Rikers Island, violent. Like, the violence that came out of, like, some of them was like, where did this even come from? And it's because they wanted to make a name for that. Like, they had to be that.

They wanted to make a name for themselves in their gang and to show that they put in work. And, again, this is part of the culture and the psychology of it. is you got to put in work so that you make a name for yourself and people know, you know, to not mess with you. And again, all unfortunate, but it's a way of life for them. And then the ones who I saw that ran their mouth the most, you're not the toughest because they would just do it. Are you seeing a lot of people get recruited to gangs inside the jail or are they just coming in getting affiliated to begin with? I know that recruitment happens. And I can't say. say that, oh, like, I know this guy is turning this guy. It happens. Late, like, now I've seen

more of them come in more crew-affiliated. And in New York right now, New York City, there's a big thing between, like, being a gang and then being a crew, a street crew. And within the street crew, they have actual, like, gang members, and it's like, it's a whole thing. But you're seeing them be more crew-affiliated. So when they come in, they're, they naturally align. with that gang that kind of is already embedded in their crew. So it's like either you're part of that street crew and that's your block and, you know, just it makes sense for you to be there. Or you are already an affiliated sanctioned gang member and you're just going to go where you belong. What was your reputation among the inmates?

I would like to believe that I had a decent rapport with them because I was very respectful with them for the most part. I never made promises that I couldn't keep. not, you know, tell them something that wasn't true. I try to be as transparent with them as I could. And I could probably count on one hand, maybe even one to two incidents where I dealt with someone who was not an inmate that was, like, disrespectful. But for the most part, they were very respectful. And this is from murderers to just, you know, young adolescent inmates. But I was very fair, very, very fair with them. Do you think it's easier to gain respect as a female rather than a male in that type of position?

No, I think it's easier for men because they listen to men. And at the end of the day, it's not lost on me that I'm a female in a jail. I think what may have assisted is that I was also a supervisor. You know, I was a director. I wasn't a CEO. I wasn't coming in there dealing with them on a day-to-day basis. If I spoke to you, it was for a reason. Or even if I spoke to an inmate because I just wanted to make sure, like, I'm touring that day.

I want to make sure, okay, are you okay? Do you need anything? Not that I could get you those things. I could by assigning it to someone or making an inquiry. But I wasn't doing it to like gain their favor or anything like that. It's just you want to make sure that they have minimum standards. I'm sure you've heard that term before. And to treat them like human beings because that's what they are.

And I think once they saw that with me, you know, it's, you didn't have to work hard to gain the respect because I went, I was there like with a mission and, you know, I wasn't playing games. And I was on like a timer. So I was like, we're not doing this today. Yeah. I found a lot of the women in federal prison, the workers, gained a lot more respect easily from the male inmates. And especially in like a place like Brooklyn when I was in Brooklyn Metropolitan detention. center, you would see the woman had a really good rapport with the inmates there. Oh, I mean, that's good to hear. You never want to hear that a CEO male or female is being given a hard time just for doing their job. You know, like I said, they really are unsung heroes and they catch a lot of flak for dealing with what they deal with day in and day out.

So if a female gets the respect of an inmate, you could only hope that she's now allowed to go home safely and not deal with any drama on her tour because of that. What was the most stressful aspect of your job? Towards the end, I would say it was just not even the inmates. That was probably the easiest part. Dealing with inmates was the easiest part of my job. I would say the bureaucracy and politics of being in the position. And it wasn't even the highest of positions at all. I was like low man on the totem pole, so to speak.

But just being exposed to that was probably the hardest thing and not being marginalized and not being able to really complete the initiatives that I started. That was probably the hardest part. Do you think politics gets in the way of a lot of change that needs to be made in a place like Rikers? Absolutely. Yeah, I think we see that in the federal system too, or at least when I was there as an inmate, you could just see it. And you're not even a part of it as an inmate. You just kind of, you just see.

Right. I never, again, even though I had a supervisory position, I always see myself as a worker bee. I was, you know, again, I was either working with my officers and, you know, trying to to do cases and trying to do different things. I never saw myself as like the executive in the corner office and, you know, don't bother me. Let me just do this. I do it. In reality, there, as a manager on Rikers Island specifically, you do hold a space where, you know, you're held accountable and you do have to advocate for your staff. So I was a huge proponent of advocating for my staff in the spaces that they were not in. So that's kind of where you sort of.

the politics more or you saw the bureaucracies and the red tape more is where you would try to advocate for your officers and it was it was very hard and I would think as and this is as a civilian, I would think that more uniform leadership would want more for their uniform staff and why am I fighting more for them than you, you know, like that that was kind of like the struggle for me when I would put on like my supervisor hat where I'm like, okay, I'm not just dealing with, you know, the cases that I was trying to do or the day-to-day stuff. Now I have to be a boss and deal with, you know, what are the needs of my staff? What are the needs of my unit? Why am I not getting these things? What can I get for them? Why are they not being treated a certain

way when they're doing an important job, when they're doing a dangerous job, seeing how staff was treated and not just, I mean, I could think of specific instances, but just overall, it's, you know, morale definitely needs to be lifted in that, in that space and in those facilities. You know, they're very much a family, and these are people who are working double triple shifts. These are people who are around inmates all day, every day. And they deserve, both deserve, to have to be treated with dignity, officers by their leadership, inmates by the officers. And when you are in a managerial position, you have to advocate for your staff. You have to speak up for them when no one else is or when they think people are and they're not. And

And it became increasingly difficult when it was very, you know, things were pitted in certain instances when that just wasn't the reality of what was happening there. So I would say, again, to like the struggles of that, it's, that could be one of the major downfalls of that agency is definitely that. Did you ever feel yourself in dangered working that job? In danger? Yeah. I could only think of one instance where short answer no, but I was very aware of, again, I wasn't in the jails every single day. But when I did go tour and I had staff with me, I was very aware that, you know, I'm a female walking into a jail facility. And, you know, I would tell my stuff, you have one job, like one job.

Like someone in front of me, someone behind me, like, you know. make sure no one is pulling my hair, spitting on me, throwing any liquids on me. Like, that's your job when you're walking with me. And that was the reality, right? Could CEOs deal, again, what they deal with? Like, they deal with splashings and, you know, inmates throwing things. And that's not lost on me that, you know, other staff deal with that. So I was aware of that.

Did I feel like I was in danger? No. But I was aware that things could happen. Why do you think some inmates are so disrespectful towards women CEOs? Because there haven't been consequences for them in a very, very long time. And I think some men just don't have respect, whether they're inmates or not. But I think because there haven't been consequences for inmates, like I said, in a very long time, they feel like they can get away with a lot.

And, you know, disrespecting a female COs, you know, again, culture. regular to them. Tell us about working with informants how that looked. So in my career in the DA's office, I was, you know, obviously that's where I was privy enough to work on cases where informants were included and they weren't my informants, but I got to see how you kind of cultivate an informant. And the reasons why, and it's not just always like, oh, you're looking for a snitch and, you know, there's never an easy way to say that or to talk about that. There just isn't. However, there are different instances. And it wasn't until I, I would I don't say unofficially, but there were people who would, you know, give me information. So they

would be more like sources, SOI, sources of information, right? But to cultivate an actual informant, you know, you have paid informants and that's more NYPD or Department of investigation, DOI, they have paid informants, and then you have people that just tell you things. And it depends on what they are looking for in terms of trying to work off their case, if they have information on things that you're like, okay, maybe I can make a phone call here. Again, this goes back to building that rapport with inmates and not making promises on anything. and, you know, what's the intel? What's the information, right?

How much are you willing to tell me and how far are you willing to go to say that you're, to acknowledge and take accountability that you're giving me this information, right? And then there's just informants that you will never know from me that they're an informant. You will never hear that, you know, I got this from them. and, you know, you just never speak of them in that instance. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%.

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Tickets are just $10 and kids under 12 were free. Get yours now at Los Angeles FWC26.com. You know that that's your informant and you do that to save their lives. Were you surprised when some people would become an informant? like certain types of people saying gangs? Absolutely. And I'm like, you? Okay.

I'm like, let's go. You know, it's funny because I would always say it's either snitches or females that get them into trouble. But I think the narrative was if they feel like if they're snitching like on staff, they don't feel like they're snitching. But if you're, you know, if you're snitching on an op or someone from a rival gang, you're still snitching in essence, but I think in my experience, the things that were told to me was like, you know, they're not doing nothing for me or this is what this got me or they didn't stand by me. Nobody's calling me. Nobody's putting money my commissary. They're not, they're not standing by my family. They're not, you know, they're doing bad outside. So it's like they have their own

reasons. And that is between you and your maker. And depending, again, and depending on how far you want to take this, obviously keeping their safety paramount. But I was surprised to see how many people and I'm like, if only they knew. And it's, sometimes it's the guys talking the loudest, blaming the other one, calling the other one a rat. And I'm like, sir, we know who the rat is here. Right. So it's like, beware of those things, I guess. Like if you're an inmate, like just know, sometimes the ones who are like mouthing off the most can be the ones that are actually helping assisting. Are you also getting tips from people from the outside on people that are in jail? Like say I pissed off baby mom or anything like that.

Yes, I would say more so now in the era of digital media, social media, I should say, social media. And women flat out just saying, yeah, my baby daddy is in like nine upper right now. he's got this. I'm like, excuse me. Yes, so it's definitely a mix of them putting it on social media themselves. And people, I don't know who they would call. Like, there's not like, I mean, I don't say there's a hotline. But they definitely tell on themselves as well.

So, yeah. I mean, if someone wanted to get a hold of you, they probably could, right? Like if someone called the facility and said, hey, I. Like me as and Teresa Ramos? No, or you as in like the game? intelligence, you know, director? No. They would.

I mean, if you're in the field, yeah, like you can call. There was a fusion center that you could call, but normally they would give information to like COs and, you know, like, whoever, like it gets passed down to, you just want to make sure that it's actual credible information that you're getting. That's the other thing. Like, you can be told a bunch of things. You want to make sure that it's, it's. credible and it's vetted information.

How often are you seeing people that are doing time in Rikers or waiting their sentence, getting additional time added on because they committed a new crime in Rikers? All the time. So my unit, within my unit was the, I told you earlier there was an intel and arrest team and that's the purpose of the arrest team is if you commit a crime and it is, you know, an offense felony level and you get arrested. you get tried or, you know, whether they take a plea or not, they could absolutely get time on top of that, on top of whatever their case is. But if they're on Rikers, it's because they're

either finishing out their time, which should be a short period of time, or they're still awaiting trial. So I've seen new cases. So I can't say that I've seen cases added on because the cases haven't been prosecuted just yet, but I've seen many charges brought on because of the acts of violence or the crimes that they were committing on Rikers Island be added to their, you know, whatever case they have on the outside. Now, do you think those crimes are committed because of the environment or because of the individual himself? Both.

I would say more in the individual because there should be accountability for what, you know, the actual crimes and the conduct that they're doing. Environment, because I could also see how you can get swept up in doing things. because of, you know, you're in survival mode or, and by survival mode, I mean, like, anything from either committing an act of violence to even contraband because you think you have to, you know, this is the only way for you to survive. I can see that. I can empathize with that.

It's also still against the law. So, but I can definitely see it being both, again, the person. You have violent people. You have inmates that commit. acts of violence against not just staff, but other inmates, because that's how they act on the outside as well. And you have to remember, the inmates that are on Rikers Island currently are supposed to be the most violent of the violent. Like, these are supposed to be the most serious cases that are being, you know, handled on the island. So people have to take accountability

for the action. So this is how you are outside. There's a reason why you're here. but I could also see how environment could get you swept up in something that you probably normally had it not been for this instance you would not be involved in this. Yeah, you know, it's interesting they say like jail and prison is supposed to be meant to deter, you know, crime from being committed and a lot of these places kind of breed that too. I think that and this is, you know, like you learn in college, I mean many, many years ago for me, that what started out as deterrence has never. become, and it's not to say that I don't disagree with most of it, but, you know, reform, right? Reforming people and the environment is supposed to be more of, you know, some of these people are coming back into the community. So you want to give them, you want to make sure that they are paying their debt to society, but that they are being given the tools to reform

themselves. And I'm all for that. But the deterrence factor has been minimalized. legally and policy-wise. So it's, you know, if you know that you can keep committing an act of violence and you're just getting slap on the wrist, a slap on the wrist, you're going to keep doing it. Or you, I've encountered both people on the street and people in jail that they know the system better than some attorneys that I know, and they know what's going to happen to them. where's the deterrence there? I know a big issue for COs was they inmates were not being given either serious sentences or when acts of violence were committed against them, either charges were dropped or whatever the case may be, the person just did not, they didn't see justice. They felt

that they didn't see justice. So, you know, why am I going through this if nothing's going to happen into them. And for any victim, whether you're inside of jail or not, whether you're a staff or you're an inmate and something happened to you, that's probably got to be a horrible feeling to know that nothing happened to this person that did this, that violated you in whatever sense of the word, right? And that's bigger. That's for, that is definitely for lawmakers and, you know, people that are handling these cases and the and the policies of like New York City, but there has to be stronger deterrence, you know, when people commit acts of violence or, you know, violate somebody.

Do you think that a lot of these gang members secretly don't want to even be in these gangs to begin with and they're kind of just forced into it or peer pressure to stay in your kind of like private conversations with some of these individuals? That's far and few in between. I would say there's a couple that I know that they, you know, that have said this is just life. It just, it is what it is. And it's like, okay, it's easier to just go with that. That's their norm than to, you know, go against the grain and, you know, leave.

And it's funny because even right now there is a, like a movement, a drop my flag movement that's been happening. And it's with a former gang member that I know that I know for a fact. Act has done tremendous community work. And he was a former member of sex money murder. And that was his gang. And in his 40s is when he just decided. And I believe he said he had an epiphany. And he, you know, he just, he wanted to drop his flag, meaning he no longer wants to

associate with that gang. And it is, it was an incredibly difficult decision, I believe, for him. And it was incredibly difficult to put it on social media. media to put it on IG because you're now dealing with the younger gang members who I think they rep something that they have no idea what they're reping. And then you have OG's first, second generation gang members that they're in RICO cases. They're doing time. Some of them are never coming home.

And they've dedicated their lives to this. So I can see why they wouldn't drop it. But I think for the most part, you're now seeing them say, if you're not built for this, you shouldn't be in it. I can respect that because the ones who aren't built for gangs and they're either still forced to be in one or they feel like there's no way out, that is a weak link, so to speak, you know, realistically speaking. And let them leave because that person could be your downfall, aside from whatever criminal activity you're doing. But, you know, like those who feel forced, there's now movement going on where it's okay for you to leave. and they're trying to find resources.

And I'm sorry if I didn't say his name. It's a Hocus 4-5th, notorious gang member from New York City. Like I said, sex money murder. He actually beat his charges and his trial from his Bronx case. And he still has a good rapport with, you know, a bunch of gang members on the outside. And they really saw or see themselves as not just community, but family. Again, these are grown men, men in their 40s and 50s, that have given their lives to this gang. And it sounds crazy because they're so indebted to it.

And they're indebted and embedded. It's embedded in them that I almost don't expect you to leave your gang and to drop your flight. But you could be inactive. So it takes a lot for someone now grown up. And even I'll say for a young person that wants to leave and not be associated, I give them a true. tremendous amount of, you know, respect if they're able to leave safely. And to come to that conclusion that this is not the life for you. They have to know that there's more out there.

There's different alternatives. There's more out there than to potentially getting caught up in a criminal case just because you want to rep what's on your block or because, you know, take some accountability as a human being, you know, take accountability. We're not dealing with, you know, 10-year-olds. I will say for the younger member, like I've seen gang members at 13. And 14, 15, they need work. They definitely need some guidance and mentorship.

And then they should also be shown that there's a different path than to, you know, join something. It's not what it was before. I will say, and I've been told that by, like, first generation gang members that I've spoken to that are well in their, like, 40s and 50s. That, you know, I had an older gang member tell me, so what are y'all going to do about this? I'm like, me. He's in your fucking gang. I was like, you talk to him, right? And this is obviously a off-the-record conversation that I had with him.

But they were like, we weren't doing this. We were not doing this. They were like, we weren't shooting up a courthouse. We weren't doing this in broad daylight. They're like, you know, women and children were always off limits. Women and children, they don't care anymore. They don't care. So, you know, it's, and I said this on a different show, like, it's going to take more than just, you know, having an older mentor from your gang.

talk to you. Like, it really is going to take law enforcement, community members, community activists, you know, different programs to really, like, do something with the current generation. I think the older generation is like, we got it. This did not work out well for us, you know, but they're still part of something, something historic to them. You know, I try to look at it in that lens because you have to be realistic that some people are just not going to leave that way of life, but it doesn't mean that you have to continue doing criminal activities, you know, if that makes sense. What do you think is a misconception about Rikers Island?

That it is this complete hellhole where people are being mistreated day in and day out. And I don't, I wasn't there 20 years ago. I wasn't there 10 years ago. I'm not discounting that some horrific things happened there. I'm not discounting that at all. I can only go by my experience and what I saw and people that I spoke to, people, and by people, I mean, inmates that I advocated for, officers that I've advocated for. It's people don't go there to die. There are so many programs and staff and, um,

built-in, I keep saying programs, but for lack of a better word, I'll say programs that go into making sure that people are safe. I can't speak for everyone on the island. And people would, paint Rikers with a very broad brush and they shouldn't. Because they, I have seen firsthand, people go over and beyond to make sure people are safe, to make sure not just staff are safe, inmates are safe. So much vetting goes into looking into a credible threat or making sure that, you know, if staff says that they were threatened, a lot goes into that to make sure that is this a credible source, did this happen?

You know, like so many things go into play. And I think that's just one of the larger misconceptions like, oh, people go to Rikers to die. No, because there are people there, including COs, that make sure that this person is safe. Or that's their job. Because if they don't do it, then they'll lose it. Or, you know, they could be held accountable for it. I know when I worked there, I went over and beyond to make sure that people were safe because I knew what the narrative could look like if the director.

of gang intel goes to talk to you, right? I know what that looks like. You know, like you snitching, why you're talking, you know, and really a large part of the, what the job was, was, are you okay? Do you need something? Making sure, or what we say is making sure you land right, like making sure, you know, you don't go somewhere that you don't belong, right? You have conversations. You, you know, you're not always looking. Well, I'm always looking for intel, but you're not always doing it for the sole purpose of gaining something. It really is to make sure that they're okay because why would you want to start or agitate someone so that they cause an act of violence or to make their life difficult so then they can make staff life lives difficult. Why would I

want to do that? Why would I want to be a part of that, right? So again, to go back to that question, I think that that's a large misconception. There's a lot of good people that work there. And there's a lot of inmates that just want to do their time, whatever it may be to finish their... Send help is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus. We're somewhere in the Gulf of Thailand. Getting us out of here should be your focus. I'm your boss. You work for me. Not in the office anymore.

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facing, Grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid, in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance and some pay as little as $0 dollars depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash book now to get started. That's growth therapy.com slash book now. Growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Okay, so to get ready for trial with no issues and both parties should be entitled to that safely. What do you think your time there taught you about the criminal justice system, like the biggest takeaway, the biggest lesson from your time there? I would say that maybe naively I thought that you could just, you know, lock people up and throw

away the key and never deal with them after that. My biggest takeaway is that people are coming back into society and you have to accept that and work with it. So, in Instead of me treating someone like scum because of whatever their charges are, whatever crime they committed, the reality is they may be coming home soon. So what are we doing as a society to make sure that these people are given the resources and tools to be a compliant citizen, a law-abiding citizen once they come home? and I've, unbeknownst to me because I didn't think that I wouldn't even care about it, but I care now. That was my takeaway. I care that, you know, when you come back into society, you're not an asshole, so to speak. Because there are many things that could happen to people, whether on Rikers Island or, you know, state prisons, federal prisons, that can, you know, change them.

I'm sure you're changed on a chemical level. to a physical level, to, you know, a mental level. And when you have people coming back into society, I believe that we should all be held accountable as a civilized society to make sure that those people are, again, given those tools and resources to be able to function with dignity and especially if you've paid your debt to society. What do you think is the number one program they should implement at Rikers Island?

Like in a perfect world, if you had to say a program to implement. Perfect program. I would say anything that teaches you, not just to give you a trade, right? I know people talk about like a vocational trade and learning how to do something. But those are, that's important as well. But I think a well-rounded, holistic program that encompasses not just, you know, therapy and drawing out your emotions, but, you know, like an all-in-one, therapeutic, vocational. I'm a big proponent of the K-9 program that they have there.

I love that they bring animals there. Not if you hurt animals, but I think having those dogs there really do help. And the inmates look forward to caring for something else, especially like a dog. I think a program that, you know, just, it sounds cliche again to say vocational and therapeutic, because these are all things that they do get and that they should get more of, more intensified. But it would have to be a holistic program that encompasses all of the probably programs that exist now and not just making sure that some people get it because that's the other thing. I understand you have to have, you know, good behavior and, you.

you have to keep a certain, let's just say like good behavior for the lack of a better term, to be in these programs. But if it's already implemented and embedded in the actual structure of the jail, like this is how you're going to be as an inmate, this is what is expected of you, and this is what we're going to do for you. These are the resources you're going to get. I think that in a perfect world would help Rikers and not just picking the select few to participate in those programs.

I think if it was just the general norm that this is how life is on the island as an inmate, you would probably have more success stories from people that are in custody. Teresa, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Thank you so much for having me, Ian. Yeah, this is a very insightful conversation.

Thank you. Not as bad as he thought it would be? No, not as bad at all. See, you're overthinking it for nothing. I am an overthinker on many things, but yes. Good. Well, I hope you enjoyed it. Thank you.