Locked In with Ian Bick - I Went Into Prison at 23 — Then Spent 17 Years in North Carolina State Prison | Michael L. Burge

Episode Date: September 8, 2026

Michael L. Burge grew up in North Carolina and Virginia, watched his parents split, was a good kid overall — skipped college, started working, got caught up with the wrong crowd, started robbing houses and businesses, and received a 17 year sentence in the North Carolina state prison system that took him in at 23 years old and handed him back to the world at 40. _____________________________________________ #northcarolina #truecrimestories #prisonlife _____________________________________________ Thank you to FACTOR for sponsoring this episode: Head to https://factormeals.com/lockedin50off and use code lockedin50off to get 50 percent off and 1 free breakfast item per box for 1 year, while supplies last until 10/31/2026. _____________________________________________ Connect with Michael Burge: BIGO Live: https://www.bigo.tv/atlas204 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/atlas.204/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@atlas20428 _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en  https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Facing 40 Years 00:51 A Turbulent Childhood 02:55 The Custody Battle 05:08 Losing Contact with Mom 10:20 Moving to Charlottesville 14:14 Reuniting with Family 16:09 High School Years 21:56 Love and Switzerland 25:00 The Robberies Begin 31:20 The Arrest 36:42 The Robberies in Detail 41:04 The Cost of Crime 44:57 Family Reactions 47:20 Facing the Sentence 52:24 No Snitching 55:22 Thinking of Victims 56:54 First Day of Prison 01:01:00 Life in Max Security 01:03:45 The Weight of Time 01:08:06 Rock Bottom 01:10:32 A Life-Changing Book 01:12:24 Why Prison Changes People 01:15:50 The Bad Days 01:19:07 Hurricane Helene 01:25:54 Giving Back Inside 01:28:30 The Purpose of Programs 01:30:30 Watching Others Go Home 01:33:34 Fear of Reentry 01:37:37 The First Day Out 01:43:53 Hardest Adjustments 01:46:29 Dating After Prison 01:49:24 Making Amends 01:51:55 Facing Judgment _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka  

People were telling me, you know, everybody talked. So people were like, oh, man, you know, like, man, you got robbery charges, man. That's serious, you know what I'm saying? So I'm like, man, this guy, he's just talking shit, you know, like, whatever. But then when I saw my lawyer, that's when I realized it was serious. Comes in, he's like, man, he's like, man, you know, you pick one of the worst states to get in trouble in. You know, I'm like, dang, that's not a good sign. You know, he's like, yeah, man, he's like, man, you're going to do some time.

And so the first time he came and he was like, all right, you know, where they're offering you, like, 40 years or something like that. That's Michael L. Burge. He went into prison at 23 years old and didn't come home until he was 40. After a string of robberies cost him 17 years of his life, he's opening up about surviving nearly two decades in North Carolina State Prison and what 204 months behind bars really did to him. I grew up in Greensboro, North Carolina, about until I was like six and then moved to Virginia, moved to Richmond, Charlestville. So I spent most of my childhood in between Virginia and North Carolina. Why do you guys move? So I moved.

So my biological dad, my mom, they got divorced when I was super young, like a couple months old. I was actually born in South Carolina, moved my mom to Greensboro. And then end up, my biological father moved to Virginia. Right. So I'm staying with my mom. Didn't really have any contact with him. At the time, you know, my mom, she was kind of like a little wild child, you know. And so she got remarried. And, you know, great stepdad. You know, they had a kid. So it's my older sister, me and my younger sister. And, you know, he was like doing everything, you know, he was supposed to when my mom was wild. And, you know, sometimes she would just disappear. And so when I was about six, She disappeared for a couple weeks. And, you know, my stepdad, he kind of, he reached his breaking point. So he ended up taking me to my paternal grandmother's house, taking my older sister to my aunt's house. And that, like, ended up being, like, the catalyst for, you know, a bunch of stuff to happen.

You know what I'm saying? So, yeah, so long story short, my mom comes back into town, finds two of her kids missing, goes crazy, right? goes to my aunt's house to pick up my older sister, my aunt calls my grandmother. My grandmother wakes me up at like 2 o'clock in the morning. You know, like, hey, look, we got to go. So I'm like, where are we going? She's like, oh, I'm taking you to live with your dad in Virginia, who I really didn't know. You know what I'm saying?

So that's how I ended up in Virginia. Big custody case. My dad won full custody of me, so that's how I ended up, yeah, in Richmond. Did your mom have you young? I don't think it's that young. No, she had my older sister when she was young. She had me in her like 20s, though, I think maybe, late 20s, maybe. And was she like an addict or was what was the mom with her?

I think, I don't know, man. I think honestly, like, I think she just was still had like that itch to be like out and about and party, you know. And so, you know, she would run around with her friends and her friends didn't have kids. You know what I'm saying? But she had kids and a husband. And, you know, and so, yeah, you know, it's crazy. because I just recently had lunch with my stepdad last week, and we spoke about everything. And he was like, man, you know, I did the best I could, you know, and so, yeah, so I think she,

yeah, she was just, she just wanted their party, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, it happened sometimes. How'd that make you feel as a kid you're probably old enough to kind of understand a little bit? I didn't. I didn't really, you know. That's why, like, when all of that happened, like, I was kind of like, I didn't really understand what was going on. It wasn't anything unusual to me because it was what I knew, you know. And, you know, when she was around, she was great, you know, it's just, you know, she would just leave, you know, and, you know, my biological father, I didn't really know him at all. So being put, you know, my whole life kind of turned upside down. And then there was a lot of drama that came with that, because once I moved

to Virginia, you know, my biological dad, he's very smart, right? He's an engineer. He's a He retired from Merck Pharmaceutical, you know what I'm saying? Super smart. As smart as he is, you know, intellectually, like he's as dumb when it comes to like social relationships, emotional intelligence. And I don't think he wanted a kid. You know, I think it was really like my grandmother was pushing that whole situation. And so when I got up there, you know, we never had like a great relationship.

It wasn't ever like, you know, he worked a lot. He, you know, I would be with my stepmother. And so I was never really like happy when I was up there. And then when I was, let's see, I was about seven or eight, he relinquished all visitation rights, right? From your brother? From my mom, right? So from when I moved to Virginia, when I was like six for about a year, every third weekend of the month, he would drive me down to South Hill, was right at the border. of Virginia and North Carolina, they needed a truck stop. They'd exchanged me. I spent a weekend,

you know, with my mom. And then on that Sunday, she would drive me back. And it was like the best time. You know, I got to be with my family and my normal situation. And then going back was terrible, you know what I'm saying? Because I never really wanted to go back. And so, you know, I always look forward to that third Friday of every month. And then just one day, you know, I get home from school, start packing my stuff. He comes in. He's like, look, you know, you're not going down there anymore. And no explanation, no nothing. And not only did I not go down, but I didn't even talk to my mom for like three years. It was the next time that I spoke to her. And actually, the next time that I spoke to her, I was in fifth grade. So I was at the time,

probably about nine years old. And my dad had got another job. We were about to move to Charlottesville. It was my last day at school. It was field day. So, you know, field day, like, when you're in school, it was, like, the biggest day of the year. You know what I'm saying? And so, you know, I was ready for that. I was the class leader, the boy class leader.

And so, you know, one of my duties was to take the library books back up to the class. So, you know, I'm on the way to take the library books back up to the class early in the morning before anything gets started. And so I'm walking to the library. And my family called me Junior. So as I'm walking, I thought that somebody called my name, but I'm like, that's weird. You know what I'm saying? I don't see anybody around.

So going to the library, put the books in, come back out. And, you know, I hear it again. Somebody's like, Junior. So I'm like, I'm looking around. So I see a woman. She's the only person I see in the hall. It's like people walking, but she's like right there against the wall. And she had on a black dress, white polka dots, you know, heels all done up.

So, like, I look at her, and I recognize I realize it's my mom. So I'm like, you know, mom, so she's like, so she got grabs my hand, you know, and I'm like, yeah, what are you doing? She's like, you know, I'm going to take you live with me. And so, you know, I'm like, what in the world is going on? You know what I'm saying? Like, I haven't even seen her in three years, you know, so she starts walking me out the building.

And, you know, even though, like, I'm young, I've always been very smart, always been very, like, curious, like, I'm going to ask questions. I'm going to figure out what's going on. And so I was like, yeah, does my dad know about this? And, you know, I've thought about this so many times. Like, if she would have lied to me right then, I may have gone with her, right? But she told me the truth. And she was like, no, he won't let me see you, but I'm going to take you far away.

So now, like, my alarm bills are ringing, right? You know, I've seen kindergarten cop, you know? So, like, you know, I'm like, yeah, I'm not about to be on no milk carton, right? So we get probably about like five feet from the front of the school. And I muster up all my little, like, nine-year-old strength and yank away from her. I yank away from her, run back to class. You know, teacher's like, yeah, don't run in the hall. Stop running.

You know, so get back to class. You know, my teacher was Ms. Syverson. And we were really close. And so I get back to the class. Like, and, you know, I'm bawling. It's not coming up. out and everything. And I'm, uh, and I'm trying to get the story out. She's like, yeah, what is wrong? And so I get the story out. Of course, it becomes a big thing. You know what I'm

saying? Like they call the cops. They call my dad. You know what I'm saying? Like they, I had to leave. And so really like that situation like ended up impacting me in a way that, you know, my dad didn't pursue like criminal charges against her, you know? And so, but that ended up impacting me for a while, you know, like, because it kind of like took away any sense of like, you know, safety that I had, you know, because from then on, like, I'm looking everywhere, because I'm like, okay, somebody might try to, like, take me or snatch me up, you know what I'm saying, anywhere, you know what I mean? So, yeah, man, I slept with the light on probably all through middle school, you know, because I didn't know whether people were going to come into my house

in the middle of the night. Like, it's funny thinking about it, but at the time, like, you know, it was scary for a young kid. Did you think it was strange that you couldn't talk to your mom for three years? Yeah, yeah. I definitely thought it was strange. But, you know, my dad, he was kind of like, you know, he was very strict and he's very, you know, it's what I say go. So, you know, I didn't have really have room to, like, be questioning anything and nobody was explaining anything to me. You know, I still don't have answers for, you know, why exactly that happened and what transpired. Now, so after that happens, the incident with your mom, what happens next? Or are you just back to normal with your father?

So, yeah, so we ended up literally the next day we were moving to Charlottesville. So we moved to Charlestville. Charlottesville is a beautiful town. And, you know, so it's got UVA. It's a college town, small college town, or big, you know, college, but small town. Vibes. And went to a great school, lots of money up there. We stayed in a beautiful neighborhood.

And, you know, we stayed in the townhouse while we were getting our house built. and um and so it was kind of yeah it was kind of like back to normal in that sense um but like i said i was never happy up there and so you know um school was like my escape you know school sports you know and so um you know he got remarried my dad got remarried to another woman and she had a daughter who was my age um and so um yeah so like i went to middle school um sick um sick seventh grade, eighth grade, I kind of finally, I was just like, man, look, enough is enough. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm not happy here. I need to make a change. And so I came home from school one day, called my grandma, my paternal grandma, and I was like, look, I'm not happy.

You know, like, this is why I'm not happy. And, you know, I want to come live with you. And she was like, okay, she was like, wait, tell your dad to call me when he gets home. and later that week, I was gone, you know, on my way back to North Carolina. And so it had been, you know, another three years since, you know, the whole incident when I was in fifth grade with my mom. So now it's, you know, it's been, you know, six, seven years since I've talked to my family, seen my family, anything like that. So I moved back to Greensboro, North Carolina. And you always play sports, ran track,

play basketball, football, all that stuff. And so as soon as I get back, it's like spring. And so I, I start running track. And,

you know, I'm at the, the conference meet. Right? So last meet at the conference meet at Western Guilford and Greensboro. And,

excuse me. And I'm running, I think, the lead leg of, of the four by one, right? And so I'm at the start line waiting to go. And I hear somebody say, hey, Mike.

So I looked like down the start line. And it's like my childhood best friend, right? I don't know how he recognized me, but he recognized me. And I haven't, you know, I haven't changed much even now, you know. So his name was Antoine. So, you know, after the race, he takes me over there. His sister, you know, was the best friends with my older sister.

His mom was good friends with my mom, so our families were really connected. So he knows the whole backstory. And so his sister was there. And so his sister, you know, was like, oh, man, does your family know that you're here? And so I'm like, nah. Like, I just got back. Like, I just got back here. You know, I'm living with my grandma.

I just got back like a month or so ago. And she's like, do you know their number? And I'm like, nah. And so she gave me the number. I went home to my grandma's house. And I knew that she would be upset, right? Like, because they just, you know, those two sides, they can't stand each other. So I knew she would be upset.

So I snuck in the bathroom, called my mom, right? And I really wanted to talk to my sister. So I called my mom. She answered the phone. We talk. And, you know, after the conference, she's like, well, I want to see you. And I'm like, well, look, I want to see y'all too. And so I go back out, tell my grandmother that, uh, that, uh, that, uh,

I wanted to see my mom, and it became this big thing because she felt like I had orchestrated like this whole thing when really it was a coincidence. You know what I'm saying? Because had I not ran track, had I not ran that particular race, had my childhood best friend? Like that wouldn't have happened like that. It's so many things that had to happen for that. But in their mind, it was just a terrible situation for me to be, you know, with my mom.

So we got into this big fight. but she didn't have any win. I'm very, very stubborn. You know what I'm saying? So there was no way that, you know, like, that was just she was going to win that. So she said, okay, so I think that next weekend I end up being reunited with my family and, you know, talk to my mom and seeing my sisters and everybody, yeah. So do you end up staying with them or now?

I did. I did. What ended up happening is, you know, my grandma, you know, she's like old school, you know, so she's old school. She lives, like, in an area where there's no kids around. There's no, my mom, we stayed out like in the suburb. on the west side of Greensboro, huge neighborhood, lots of kids around, all of my childhood friends still lived in the neighborhood, more freedom, you know, because I come from being in a

very restricted environment in Virginia to now have a lot of freedom, you know, and of course, like, you know, I think that my mom felt some guilt, right? And then I understood that at a young age, so I also used that as like leverage, you know what I'm saying, to do whatever I want. And she was trying to make it up. She's buying me whatever I want. You can do whatever you want. You know what I'm saying? So of course, like, I want to be in that environment. So after a couple, after I spent like a couple weekends with him, I'm like, like, I want to move out here. And basically like my step, my, my biological father, stopped talking to me after that. I've talked to him maybe five times since I was 13. I've seen him twice. Last time being right before I got locked up. Yeah. So now do you make it off to high school?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, went to high school in Greensboro, played sports. You know, high school was, you know, it's interesting because, you know, even when I heard your story, like, you know, some of it reminded me of myself, you know, because one is I had an issue with authority, right? But two, my mind worked in a way where if I didn't feel like somebody could think on the level that I could think it or think on, then it was difficult for me to take them seriously. You know, and so, you know, I was in honors classes, you know, and all that stuff, but I just did what I had to do, you know, like, to pass. you know, because I was a type of kid that I could not do any homework and still go in and pass the test, you know. And so that's what I did. You know, high school was a good time for me in school.

You know, outside in the home, it was terrible. My mom became like an addict. And she also had like, you know, some mental health issues that she was dealing with. And so, you know, she was on a lot of, like, pharmaceuticals. And so, you know, she would be asleep for days, you know, I think she was bipolar, you know, so she would, you know, be asleep for days. And then she would wake up and, you know, spend a bunch of money and just go crazy, you know, and then, like, she would be sleep for days.

And my dad, you know, my stepdad, he worked, you know. So, you know, it was me, my little sister and my grandma. A lot of time, you know, we kind of just had to figure it out. You know, now all that said, like, there was money. Like, I never struggled. I was never hungry, you know what I'm saying, or anything like that. I can't, I can never, we had, I had everything. It was spoiled, you know, when it comes to material stuff.

But as far as, like, the structure and the discipline and the support and stuff like that, it was absent. And so, you know, that was an interesting thing because I was going through all these things at home, which were embarrassing and kind of like, you know, and also, you know, that I struggle with, and then I would go to school and kind of, you know, just pretend like, you know, everything was cool, you know. Were you getting into trouble at all in high school?

No, not really, man. You know, I got suspended one time because we, what was that junior year? We went to homecoming. We got drunk. The guy with the guy who drove us. ended up crashing into like a resource officer's car while we were in the, in the, the, uh, the, uh, the dance. And so, you know, we come out. I remember coming out and, uh, I seen all the cars,

the police cars over there. And I went home. Like, you know, I thought everything was fine. Go to school that next Monday. You know, I'm in my last period and they called me to the principal's office. And I'm like, dang, like, I wouldn't know what in the world? Because it wasn't even my homecoming. It was a homecoming at another school where my girlfriend was. And they called me in and like, oh, you know, did you, you brought alcohol on, or consumed the alcohol on, on school grounds? And I'm like, nah, we actually drank before, but it's besides the point. They still, they still suspended me, I think, for like maybe four days. But that's the only trouble that I got into, you know.

Oh, I did, I did like total my mom's car, though, to a junior year. I did do that, you know, going to see my girlfriend late at night sneaking out. So a normal kid type of trouble? Yeah, yeah, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, not, like, I was rebellious in, like, in, like, a kind of normal way, but I did not. Never, never gotten any trouble like that, yeah. What was your plans for after high school? So, you know, it's interesting because I was thinking about this earlier as I was kind of, like, you know, prepping for the interview. And, you know, my high school, you know, as a senior, we had to do a scrapbook.

And so they ask us these questions. And so one of the questions was what do you want to do. And so one of the things I wanted to do with it at time was like, you know, own a club or, you know, do promoting and stuff like that. That's what I saw myself doing. And to be honest, like, at a very young age, like, I knew that, like, I had a capacity to, you know, do something like great, you know, or do something like substantial or, you know, And so I didn't know exactly how that was going to manifest, but I had always felt that. And so that's what I wanted to do. At one point, you know, I got really good scores on like the PSAT and like different things like that.

So I had a box and it was for like all of these, you know, letters from every college you can think of, you know. And I just didn't put in the effort, you know what I'm saying? To be honest, I just didn't put in the effort because I also didn't see like, the point necessarily, you know, like. And so after I graduated, I just was like working and just like random jobs, like a server or, you know, I've worked in like a machine shop and in sales as a sales associate at Bed Bath and Beyond. And, and, but I knew I wanted to travel too. And so as soon as I got the opportunity to travel, that's what I did. Yeah.

Where'd you go? I went to Switzerland. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which is a crazy story. Long story short, end up falling in love with a girl. From Switzerland? From Switzerland.

Yeah, yeah. She, yeah, she was born and raised Switzerland. She'd only been to America once. But, yeah, I felt like that. love with her. And she was like, yeah, you want to come out here? And I was like, yeah. So I end up going out there. And, you know, it was a, it was a beautiful, beautiful experience. The country is beautiful. The people are beautiful. I was young, dumb. You know, we both were. And so the relationship didn't work out, but I learned so much doing it. And I remember when I first was telling people, you know,

that I'm going to Switzerland, like, it was kind of like a random thing out of nowhere, you know what I'm saying, like, you know, there's not too many, like, young kids who are just randomly, like, yeah, I'm about there move to Switzerland. And so, you know, people are like, well, you know, who do you know out there? And, and you don't even speak the language and aren't you scared? And, you know, haven't you seen hostile? And I'm like, yo, like, I'm good. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so, like, I end up going out there and, you know, looking back that experience, like, kind of in a way prepared me for what would come later, you know, that's me being incarcerated. And the reason why is because, you know, when you're in a country

where you don't speak the language and you're living there, you have to be very observant, right? You have to be very mindful of the energy and, you know, how people are looking and body language and stuff. And so, you know, I got kind of used to doing that, you know, because if I don't understand what you're saying, like, I have to be able to, like, gauge, you know, your intentions and stuff. And so, yeah, but it was a great experience, man. You know, spent some time, like, traveling around Europe with her. And, yeah, man. And that mindset applies to prison.

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, I left, I left Switzerland and got back to the States in May 2008, bought a round trip ticket on the way back because I didn't know how long that I was going to stay. You know, so I brought a round trip. ticket back, round trip ticket was for September 5th, 2008. So I was going to, the plan was to come back to the States, you know, hang out with my family, make a little bit of money, go back over

there and work and probably just stay, you know, for a while. And, and so I end up meeting a girl when I came back to the States. And, you know, I, you know, end up pushing my flight back to December and end up getting locked up literally a week after I was originally supposed to leave. Wow. Right. Yeah. What happened?

So when I got back, I was just working and, you know, and staying with this girl. And we developed like a really good relationship. And I told her, you know, she knew that I was going back to Switzerland and everything. thing like that. And so basically, like, you know, I was selling a little bit of weed here and there because I would do that, you know what I'm saying, just to like make money and, you know, so I could smoke. And one of the guys who was selling weed for me ran out. And so when I get off work, I come home and he's in the apartment with this other guy, right? And he's like, yeah, you know, this is, you know, this guy's name and, you know, we, you know, we need something.

So I'm like, all right, cool, right? So me and this guy, we start chopping it up, right? He's new to the area, you know, he also plays basketball. And so, like, you know, that's how we connect. He's like, yeah, you know, and he plays to play basketball around. I'm like, yeah, you know, we can, like, go and hoot, right? So we become cool. And so he shows up to my apartment, like, maybe.

maybe like a week or so later and he's like, man, come outside. So I go outside, he pops the trunk. It's got all kinds of stuff in the trunk. Like all got jewelry, computers, like all kind of electronics. And so I'm like, damn, like, where did you get all the stuff at? And so he tells me, he's like, yo, you know, I'm in the streets and, you know,

I'm pulling these licks. And to be honest, bro, like, I don't even know what the lick was at the time. You know what I didn't know what that was at the time. but I can tell like contextually like, you know, what he meant. And so I was like, I was like, damn. So he starts telling me the story. So I kind of become like intrigued because it's so different from like what my life had been. Right.

And so it's like kind of some movie shit, but it's like real life. Right. So I'm like, dang, like this is what you're doing. He's like, yeah. So he gives me a laptop. So like I become intrigued. We started talking about it. And so that's initially like how I get involved in these.

robberies, right? And so, you know, I start getting involved in a couple of them. Some of them were like inside jobs, you know, where he knew somebody who was like working at a particular place and, you know, and so like, so we do some stuff. Well, me and this guy end up falling out, right? Because like even when I was doing stuff, like, I'm very, like, meticulous. Like, and I like to think things through and try to think of as many details and risk and all that as possible. And he was more impulsive. And so he ended up doing something and it was very impulsive. And I didn't like it.

And then that's when it kind of like hit me. I'm like, yeah, man, bro, like, what are you doing? You know what I'm saying? It's not because it wasn't even like I was involved in this stuff like out of a sense of desperation. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot of times when people commit crimes or they break the law, they do it and you can trace it back to an economic reason or, you know what I'm saying? Like, like trauma or something like that. And for me, I can't even say that it was that.

You know what I'm saying? Like it's so. So he ended up doing this. We ended up falling out. Well, we didn't talk for a couple weeks. And then one night, he shows. after my apartment is late it's probably like you know past midnight knocks on the door go outside i'm like uh i'm like you know what's up he's like man you know i need a place to crash tonight he's like

uh you know i got in a fight with my girlfriend's roommate's boyfriend and she kicked me out and i need a place to crash until i call my people tomorrow so i'm like cool right um the girl who i was dealing with she was not happy about it, you know what I'm saying? But I overruled it, right? So he ends up staying. So, of course, he's got all this stuff in it's these black trash bags, you know, so he brings all his stuff in, like, we don't want it in a living room. So, you know, we're taking it in the bedroom.

So a couple, what I didn't realize at the time, right, was that the police were already, like, surveilling me. I didn't realize this at all. I found this out later on. I went in the county jail and I got my discovery and I realized that we had went to pick up my ex-girlfriend, like, prior to give her a ride somewhere, like maybe a few weeks prior to this. And he was talking crazy, like, you know, and when she was in the car. And so the police end up, like, going to her and asking her, like, questions. She was like, you know what?

She was like, you know what, man? You know, my ex-boyfriend was with this guy, and he was talking crazy. And so, like, that's how the police even, like, became aware of me or any of this, right? So they're surveillance. So he's at my place, of course, like, you know, I don't know whether it was even a situation to where, like, what he was telling was the truth or not, or he just, you know, kind of wanted to insinuate himself into my life. but the police come maybe two or three nights after he got there. They come deep. You know, they come like Charles Manson or something.

It's the violent task force. And they're coming like crazy. And so they come in, they search the apartment. They find all this stuff and all these bags linking to these different robberies, right? So in which I have nothing to do with. What kind of stuff is just electronic? No, just random stuff, like stupid stuff, like IDs and just like stuff that makes no sense to keep. You know what I'm saying?

Like it makes no sense. And so it was interesting because like we're, you know, and I still really don't know exactly how this happened. But, you know, the apartments where I were staying at, it was only like one exit. Like there's only one door, right? And there's apartments on both sides. And so like five minutes prior to the police coming, he leaves. Right. So then the police come.

And like I said, it's 40 of them. They're everywhere, you know. And so, you know, when they arrest me, they take me downtown. It's first time being handcuffed, first time being arrested. They take me downtown. They put me in this cell. You know, they're playing good cop, bad cop. It's freezing in there.

You know, like, it's just, you know, of course, I'm like, man, what in the world is going on, right? I know what's going on, but I'm like, man. And so, like, as they're questioning me, I realize, I'm like, you know, of course, I'm like, listen, man, I don't know. Of course, you know, playing the dumb. I don't have any idea what's going on, you know what I'm saying? And then as they're questioning me, like, I realize, like, I'm like, man, like, I'm the only one that's in here.

So then immediately, I'm like, man, did they, did he set me up? You know, like, what in the world, like, happened? And even later on, once I got my discovery and I realized they were surveillance. me, I still can't figure out. I'm like, if they were surveilling and they have all these people, you know, looking at this apartment, they know who's coming and going, who's coming and going, like, how did he get away? I still don't understand to the day. You know what I'm saying? So, so I get arrested and, you know, I'm in the county and they're hitting me with charges in my stepdad. He just told me, he's like, man, look, you know, he said, you call me when you got in the

county. He's like, I was going to bail you out. He said, but, you know, the detective called me, And he told me, he said, look, if you bail him out, we're going to hit him with another charge. And if you bail him out, we're going to hit him with another charge. He's like, they didn't want you to get out. And I was like, okay. I literally just found this out, you know, when we had lunch the other day. And so I'm in the county. They hit me with a bunch of robbery charges, a bunch of kidnapping charges.

Why kidnapping? Because, you know, like once you, and this is something I think a lot of people don't know about. But when, let's say, like, you go into a place. of business or like whatever. If any time, any kind of way you restrict somebody's movement, it's a kidnapping charge. So if it's 10 people in there and you say, listen, all 10 of y'all like stand up against the wall, we don't want to hurt anybody, you know, we just want the money, right? It's 10 kidnapping charges. Then they can charge you with 20, they can threaten you with 20 years for each of them, right? That's 200 years, right? Plus the robbery charge,

plus whatever else, burglary, whatever else it is, right? And so, so with the, the robbery with a dangerous weapon and all the kidnapping charges, they were able to threaten me with like 4,000 months, something like that. You know, so, so yeah, so I'm in the county. And my first night in the county, like, I was in a four-man sale, you know, and you got the two bunk beds on the side, you got the toilet in the middle, crazy set up. And, you know, I remember I would just, when I was scared, you know, and I didn't know, like, honestly, I didn't know, like, the seriousness of the charges,

you know, and what I was doing. Like, I didn't realize, like, that it carried that kind of risk, you know, and so, yeah, man, like, I get in there and I was just, like, you know, I was terrified of, you know, I felt like my life was just over and I just, you know, it's just full of regret. And also just trying to adapt to the environment, you know, because you go. and you go into county, you're in 23 and 1, lockdown, you know. So, yeah. I think we can all agree that during the summer, our diets definitely take a hit,

especially when we're busy going on vacations and doing a lot of traveling. Now that summer's coming to an end, it's time to get serious. That's why I'm all in on Factor. I've been so dialed in on Factor meals lately. I mean, literally right now in the office, I have myself a bacon,

mushroom and Swiss scramble. Factors' breakfast items are delicious, and I wash it all down with one of their protein shakes, with a little bit of caffeine in it to keep me hype and ready and active and locked in during interviews. Factor meals are ready in just two minutes and require no prep and no cleanup, so even on the days your schedule is completely out of control, eating well is still achievable. Every week, you'll find over 100 nutrient-dense menu items to choose from and new options like salmon burgers, shredded pork, collared greens, and more.

Plus add-ons you'll crave like pumpkin-flavored cheesecakes and protein shakes. And if you care what I have to say, you'll check out the breakfast items because Factor makes eating healthier easier. Let's eat real. Head to FactorMeals.com slash Lockedin 50 off and use code Locked in 50 off to get 50% off and one free breakfast item per box for one year while supplies last until October 31st, 2026. That's code locked in 50 off at factor meals.com. Locked in 50 off at factor meals.com. See website for more details. Now, how many places were you responsible for? Um, I would say three that I was involved in, like directly involved in. And what was exactly your role? Are you the guy taking point? Are you? No, I was, I was, um,

I was, sometimes I was a driver, you know, sometimes I was just kind of like back up, you know, yeah. And yeah, so I was the mostly like the guy who like thought about everything, you know what I'm saying? Like, and kind of planned it out like more so than like, you know, the person. Like I never was somebody who like, I never possessed a gun, never shot a gun. You know what I'm saying? Like that wasn't like, that wasn't my area. Would he have a gun?

partner? Yeah. He would bring it gun. Now, why were you the planner if he's the one that brought this whole scheme to you? I think because, like, I was just, I just thought about things, like more. Like, he would come to me with, like, an idea and I would be like, all right, well, look, man, like, this is probably not a good idea. You know what I'm saying? Like, this is, like, something that could go wrong or we have to think about this. We have to think about that. Just because, like, I thought, like, I think more detailed than him, you know, yeah. No, did you always stick to businesses or did you go to private homes too? Both. Both. But mostly only one home that I was like involved with, right? And then it was business. Yeah. Was anyone home when you hit the house?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like a random thing. Yeah. And that was an impulsive thing that he did. And that was one of the reasons why we fell out. Yeah. So that that's what the fallout was over. And he probably got violent in a way or? Well, he, he, he, he, I. I think he ended up, like, hitting the dude, like, in the nose, right? And the dude ended up bleeding. And I think that he broke the dude's nose. So one of those classic scenes from the movies where the partner's not happy that the other partner, you know, got aggressive? Yeah.

Well, it's not even that he got aggressive. It's that, like, you know, if you're going to do stuff like that, man, it should have, like, you should plant. First of all, you shouldn't do stuff like that. Let me get that clear. But if you are going to do stuff like that, man, you have to be smart about it. It has to be worth it. You know what I'm saying?

Like, the opportunity cost has to, like, make sense. You know what I'm saying? So, like, if you don't do research on somewhere and you're risking your life, right? You're risking going to prison. And it's not for anything. You know what I'm saying? You don't know.

Like, it doesn't make any sense. You know, and, you know, I didn't. And also, like, yeah, I'm definitely not somebody who, Like, I don't believe in committing acts of violence, you know, against people. You know what I'm saying? I don't like that. Now, you weren't raised this way. Are you thinking after the first one or even during the first one, I'm not supposed to be doing this?

This is wrong. For sure. So then what makes you go on to do a second one? Man, I don't, I think, you know, honestly, man, and it sounds terrible, but it was, I think it was just like the adrenaline and it was the excitement of it all. You know, I don't, it wasn't anything else, you know, even my stepdad when we talk, you know, He's like, man, I feel like I failed you, you know what I'm saying? Like, this is why, like, you know, when I got that time, like, I felt like I failed you.

And I had to let him know, man. Like, I knew right from wrong. You know, like, it wasn't like I didn't know that I was doing something wrong. I did. It wasn't like I was raised like that, you know. And I think that that's one of the important things about that I learned from being incarcerated and being in this situation, because I was 23 when I got my time, you know,

and so I just turned 23. And so it's just about, like, accountability, you know, and not putting the blame on other people or other things, because we always have choices. So it doesn't really matter, like, what happens to you as a kid. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, but you always have a choice, you know. And so I just made very poor choices, you know, and it wasn't anybody else's, you know,

responsibility wasn't, you know, because of what I went through as a kid or anything else, you know what I'm saying? It was just a bad decision, man. How much do you think you made overall off of the robbers you took part of after everything was sold or whatever was you kept out of them? Um, I would say probably maybe like 50 grand. For yourself or split? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Still not worth how much you spent in prison. 17 years. Now, it's not worth 204 months, you know what I'm saying? Like you made 50 grand in one year. You know what I'm saying? If you Yeah, so like definitely not worth it, man. Definitely not worth it in that sense, you know.

And I was blowing it, you know what I'm saying? So it wasn't even like it was because, you know, when you make fast money, you spend fast money. That's just kind of how it goes. You know, very rarely do you make money like that? And you're like, you know, at the time, like, I was so near-sighted, right, that I was just saying what was right in front of me, you know? And, you know, I think that's a problem that a lot of us have, you know, is that we make decisions based on what is going to make us feel good right in the moment or get us what we want, you know, when really, like, we should be thinking about, you know, what is this going to do for me a year from now, you know, five years from now, 10 years from now.

And so, yeah, I was, you know, I was young and dumb and I was not thinking like that at all. But you also knew the concept of having a job because you had jobs. For sure. Whereas some people that come on the show, they've never worked a day in their life. So you knew that aspect of having a work ethic too. For sure. For sure. I did.

Yeah, I did. I just, yeah. And I was working at the time when I started all this, you know. So it wasn't even like, you know, I said it wasn't like it was out of desperation or anything like that. You know, I didn't have a place to stay or, you know what I'm saying, anything like that. It was just, you know, I think it was, you know, sometimes we get excited or we get excited or we get attracted things that are way different, you know. And it just so happened that mine was breaking the law, you know, and doing something that ended up costing me, you know, basically

most of my adult life up until I was 40. So do you think that if you went to Switzerland on time, you never would have ended up in prison? Never would happen. Never would have happened. You don't think you would have had that urge to do something maybe in Switzerland? No, no, I don't. You know, I think it just so happened, like, that the circumstances put, me in a place, you know, that, and put people in my life where I was influenced, not by him, but, you know, just by like the circumstances to do these things. I think, you know, if circumstances were different, my environment was different, I think the choices would be, would have been different as well. So now when you're in the county jail, do you talk to your mom

and biological dad at all? No, I haven't talked to my biological dad. since before, like I said, I saw him one time right before I got incarcerated. And that was the first time I had seen him in years and years. And I haven't talked to him at all. Wow. Yeah. How does that make you feel? Honestly, man, like, you know, it's interesting because, man, people would talk about it and I don't even know him.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I haven't had a relationship with him since I was 13. So it's not like he's just a stranger. It's just crazy. You know, like someone has a kid and it is crazy. Like I just, you know, I feel bad for someone. of the people that come on the show and their parents just write them off. Yeah. And that's not even your fault. Yeah. It has nothing. He brought you into the world. Right, right, right.

It's crazy. Yeah, I think, I think some people, everybody's not meant to have children. You know what I'm saying? Some people don't want them, but they have them. And, you know, some people take on a responsibility and some people don't. And you were lucky that you didn't end up and say, like, the foster care system because you had family on the other side. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So now what does your mom think when you get arrested? I think everyone everybody was like shocked you know everybody was shocked because you know I think everybody kind of viewed me as somebody who have all these tools you know to be successful and to do all this you know like and you know so people were surprised because I look like I said

I literally just got back from Switzerland you know what I'm saying so like you know and then boom you know I'm locked up and and so you know my mom she was supportive you know, in her own way, you know, my stepdad, he was kind of like, I remember in the county, you know, I got a letter from it, man, he didn't see me. I didn't see my stepdad the entire time I was locked up, right? And I remember he wrote me a letter and he's like, man, look, you know, I told you about, you know, the company you keep. And, you know, he's like, it's hard to get in, it's easy to get in trouble and it's hard to get out of. And that was the only letter he wrote me. And I I remember thinking at the time, I was like, man, like, I don't need to hear this.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm in the worst, like, place in my life. You know what I need support. I don't need, like, tough love right now, you know. But that was his way. And I think he was just, like, very, very disappointed, very hurt. My whole family was, to be honest, you know. And that's the thing, like, you know, when you get locked up, man, it just doesn't affect you.

You know, it affects everybody who knows you, everybody who cares about you, everybody who loves you. You know, and, you know, so, you know, my mom, you know, she was, of course, disappointed, too. And we kept in touch, like, for a while, you know, but I ended up, you know, kind of distancing myself from her as well after a couple years, yeah. Now, when you first get arrested, did you understand the gravity of the situation, how much time you'd be facing or you're thinking it's, you know, something light? Hell no, I didn't understand. man, hell no. Like, when I remember when I got locked up, you know, I didn't understand it all. And so, you know, how it is is that, you know, they can charge you for all these crimes

whether or not they can prove them or not, right? You know, they can charge you and then they can threaten you with the cumulative time, right, of all these charges, right? So for me, you know, I had no idea. I was like, all right, maybe, you know, like, I don't know what they're going to get me. You know, like people were telling me, you know, everybody talks. So people are like, oh, man, you know, like, man, you got robbery charges. Man, that's serious, you know what I'm saying.

So I'm like, man, this guy, he's just talking shit, you know, like whatever, right. But then when I saw my lawyer, that's when I realized it was serious, you know, comes in. He's like, man, he's like, man, you know, you pick one of the worst states to get in trouble in. you know i'm like dang that's not a good sign you know he's like uh he's like uh he's like uh yeah man he's like man you're gonna do some time and so you know he came i think the the the maybe the first or second time that we spoke we spoke three times before i went to to um court and um the first time he came and he was like all right you know were they're offering

you like 40 years or something like that And I was like, 40 years. I'm like, man, ain't no way. He's like, nah, we're not going to take this. So then the next time he comes, he's like, all right, either you take this or you take an open plea. So I'm like, well, what the hell is an open plea? You keep my eye.

I don't know anything about the justice system, right? He's like, so you take an open plea. So I'm like, well, what's that? He's like, well, you know, you can either get the minimum of the lowest charge, which I think was like 38 months or something like that. Or you can get the maximum of all the charges, which was like 400 years, something like that, right? So he's like, oh, you know, but it's, you know, your first time offender, you know, you don't have no prior record.

You're probably going to get, you know what, I'm saying, sometime on the lower end. I was like, all right. So in my head, I'm thinking, man, you know what, like maybe if they're just trying to make a point, maybe they'll give me like five to seven years. You know, like if they're being like hard asses, you know what I'm saying, they're going to give me like probably like five to seven. Right. This is what I'm thinking. And so when I went to court, you know, I had some family members there and, you know, had signed the open plea already and the judge is going through his whole thing and do you

understand that. And so when he goes to giving my time, he's like, yeah, you know, you know, on this charge, they consolidated all my charge in the four classes. the felonies, right? And so what they ended up doing was they ended up giving me 51 months for each one of them ran consecutively, right? So when he's telling me, he's like, all right, you know, you have 51 months to 71 months on this, and then 51 months to 71 months. So when he gets something, he's like for a total of 204 months. So when he says that, I'm like, damn, I'm like, you know, I'm smart. I immediately forgot how to do math. So I had to break it down. You

So I'm like two and four months. I'm like, how the hell long are that? Once I realized it was 17 years, I broke down. Right. So, you know, I'm in the courtroom and I'm sobbing, right? And, you know, my family, they're sobbing. And so they lead me out, the courtroom, and they're taking me to the tunnel back into the holding cells. And I remember it was two sheriffs was walking with me.

And I'm still, like, crying on the way back. and the sheriff is like he's like man it's going to be all right and I was like man I looked at him and said man my life is over man I said I'm 23 they just gave me 17 years like you know and uh he looked at me he said man your life hasn't even started yet listen bro if I would have had a gun I would have caught another charge right then I was not trying to hear that shit you know what I'm saying but he was right though you know he was right um And so, yeah, so like I ended up going back to the county, you know, and when you get a lot of time like that, they get you out of there fast. You know, when you get your time, they get you up out of there.

So I spent maybe three more days in a county before they shipped me to prison. Now, your lawyer isn't asking you about the guy you did the robberies with and vice versa. You're not asking the lawyer, hey, what happened to him? Did he get arrested? Yeah, yeah. I was, he was asking me, he ended up doing some other shit and getting arrested months later, right? And so, but I never saw him in the county, you know, I never, you know, we didn't interact at all. And so, like, I still haven't had a conversation with him to this day, you know, about anything to happen.

I know that he ended up getting around the same amount of time, maybe a little bit more than me, I guess due to whatever charges that he ended up. Were they looking at him simultaneously? Yeah. So they already knew about that you did someone. So they weren't trying to come to you and say, tell us who you did this. Of course they did. Of course they were. But they were trying to get me to say everything about it.

But they already knew. You know what I'm saying? Because they knew like that there were multiple people. at these robberies, you know what I'm saying? So, but they already knew, like, were there other people involved or just you and him? Just me and him, yeah, yeah. Now, why didn't you cut a deal to give him up?

Because by that time, man, like, to be honest, man, like, I was responsible for my part, right? You know what I'm saying? And so, like, you know, I just don't think that it's a right thing to do to give somebody up when you played a part in it. You know what I'm saying? Like, so when, when, you know,

when I'm making the decisions that I'm making, like I didn't do it because of him. You know what I'm saying? I was grown. Even though I was young, like I was an adult. So I still understood what I was doing. So it really wasn't his fault.

Like, for a while, like, I was resentful because I felt like, I was like, man, this guy got me involved in all this shit. You know what I'm saying? Like, and then I was like, man, you know, like he didn't fucking force me to do any of that shit. You know what I'm saying? So.

Knowing that he ended up with the same thing? amount of time pretty much as you anyways, do you regret not flipping on him? No. And giving them up? Hell no. Even to get back, say even half of your time, it's not worth it? No. Because, you know, one of my, one of my, and this is what probably, like, got me through

my time a lot, man, and this is one of my favorite quotes, because I did a lot of reading, you know, I was in there, and Napoleon Hill has one of my favorite quotes. And he says, every adversity we face, it brings me. with it the seed of its equivalent in a form of an opportunity, right? Every adversity we face brings with it the seed of its equivalent in the form of an opportunity. And so, like, you know, of course, like, I regret my crimes and people being negatively affected by my decisions, right? Of course I regret that.

And if I could take that part back, I would. But me getting that time, right, if I believe that everything that I face every street, struggle, right, like brings with it an equal blessing or opportunity, right? In my mind, I'm like, okay, you know, this is the hardest thing that I've ever done, right? 17 years of my life, all of my 20s, basically all of my 30s, you know what I'm saying? I went in at 23. I got out when I was 40, you know, and so I knew that I felt and believed and still believe that there's an equal blessing that's coming from that, right? And so, and I got so much better and I learned so much and I got so much out of the experience that like I can never be resentful for something

that made me better you know what I'm saying no matter how hard it was you know where long in the process from the time you got arrested throughout prison do you think about say the victims in the case the people you stole from a lot yeah a lot of times man but when along when did I right when you get arrested or is it when you're sitting in the county or is it when you're serving time in prison when is it first hit you when is it at first you when is at first you hit me probably while I was in a county you know what I'm saying like probably while I was in a county you know because when you're in 23 and 1 you're in a cell and you're just thinking about everything you know you're thinking about everything and so you know like um it's it's it's

interesting because it's really like not in my nature to even like hate or want wish bad on anybody. So to know that I was responsible directly for, you know, harming people, right, and bringing negativity to their life really, like, impacted me in a way where, you know, it took a while for me to, like, and I'm not even sure that I've still fully, like, you know, process it or forgiven myself. The only reason why I have is because, like, I know there's really like nothing that I can do about it, you know what I'm saying? And I also know, you know, I did the crime. I did the time. You know what I'm saying? Like, it is what it is. You know what I'm saying? Like so, but yeah. How old are you on your actual first day of prison?

My actual first day of prison, I was 23 still. And where did they send you to? I processed it central prison. You know, I, when they give me my time a few days later, they, they wake me up like, all right, you know, you're going to prison, go downstairs. They put me in a holding sale by myself. Put everybody else in like 15 other guys that are going to prison this day in this other cell. So automatically, I'm like, man, that's weird, you know, but I'm like, all right, maybe I have more time, whatever.

So when they take me out, I ask them where I'm going, they're like, are you going to the big house? So I'm like, oh, shit, like, what is that? They're like central prison, which every, that's where everybody goes in North Carolina when you get a lot of time. You get 10 years or better, you go to central prison process. You go, you went to poke if you were super young. And so I go to central prison.

And they call it the wall, you know, get in the van, pull up to the wall, looking at the prison. It's a 40-foot wall all the way around. You know, they have guards up there, you know, they're armed and everything. You know, they call it the wall because when you go out in a yard, that's all you can see is the sky, you know, on the wall. Like, you can't see any trees. You can't see anything. That's where death row is at North Carolina. And so, you know, that was like a realization like, man, this is real, you know.

And so a process at central prison, then they send me to close custody, which is maximum security in North Carolina. They send me to Marion in western North Carolina in the mountains. And that's what they do. A lot of times they'll send you as far away from your people as possible. And I think that's one of the things that people don't know about, like, you know, prison too is like when, you know, when you first go to prison, like, you know, I think the system in a way is designed. to completely like break you down you know at the time like when so when I first got the prison we got two phone calls a month to 10 minute phone calls a month right so if you got dad mom grandma kids for you know what I'm saying like you have to choose who you call you know what I'm

saying visit we're like it's like three hour three and a half hour drive away from where I was from you know so um you know so at the time when you need communication the most you know it's the most difficult, you know, and so yeah, so I went to Marion spent, what, three and a half years at Marion and maximum security before I got my mediums. What that, what was that place like? Who are you keeping close with? Who are you running with? What's the environment like? Yeah, so Marion was, you know, when you go to, to, in a maximum security prison in North Carolina, like, you know, the environment varies from prison to prison. But in general, like, when you're in maximum security environments, it's more respect, right? Because there is

the very real possibility of, like, danger. And when things happen, you know what I'm saying, like, they happen. And so, of course, like, I've seen, you know, a lot of violence. But it was kind of like, chill. You know, for me, and Marion, like, they make you take a job. And, like, they make you take a job, right? So when I got there, you know, they're like, all right, man, they're going to draft you into the kitchen. I'm like, draft me into the kitchen. I'm like, what does that mean? They're like, look, if you're on a sign, they're going to draft you into the kitchen. If you say you don't want to go, they're going to write you up. I'm like, damn, like, they're going to write me up. And the way in my mind, I'm like, man, I got these four sentences,

51 to 71 months. So minimum, so I have to work all of these sentences down, right, to make sure that I, you know, get out of prison. So in my mind, I'm like, one is I have to stay busy. I have to stay active. I have to stay assigned and I have to stay out of trouble. And so I definitely wasn't getting a writer for that. So I worked in the kitchen for a while. Then end up working on maintenance for a while before I got my mediums. The environment there, it's, let's see, it's 32 people in the block, single sales, you know, like I said, it was, it got worse towards like the end because they started turned it into like a gang facility, right? So they started bringing a lot of guys in who were

like young and involved in these different organizations. So then they kind of got turned up a little bit more. You know what I'm saying? Like it was a lot more violence. They took, they had a baseball field when I first got there. It took all the fences down, took all the benches off the yard. You know what I'm saying? Like so, you know, because there was a lot going on. So when you first got there, you don't have to click up with anyone? No, like North Carolina isn't like that. You know what I'm saying? Like, now you have people like, listen, if you join an organization or click up with people

is generally because you're scared. You know what I'm saying? Like, and so, nah, so you don't have to do that like in North Carolina. Unless you're scared and you can't hold your own. You know what I'm saying? Like then, you know, you do that. I know it's not. I know it's like a little bit different.

like in the feds and in some different states, but it's not like that thing. Were you scared going in? Yeah, of course. Of course. You know what I mean? Like, you know, I had never been in that environment. You know, I was 135 pounds soaking wet, you know, you know, I turned 24 a couple months after I got locked up.

And so, you know, I'm just, you know, light-skinned guy from the suburbs, didn't grow up in the hood, you know what I'm saying? Now I'm around all these guys. So, yeah, of course, you know, like I didn't know what to expect. And then it's the psychology of it. You know, like, you know, I don't even know you ever seen 60 days in. Yeah. You know, and so, you know, a lot of these guys, even these, where they're military or ex-police officers, they go in there, they're talking all this shit beforehand.

Like, yeah, I'm going to go in here and I'm going to do this. They're getting that cell. It closed behind them. And it's not even real to them. And then they're like, oh, shit, you know what I'm saying? And that's why, like, I think a lot of, like, prison is mostly, like, psychological. It's very real physical danger. but the big battle is the mental battle.

Does anyone take you under their wing when you first got there? No, not really. I wouldn't say that. You know what, like, help me, man, it's like sports. You know, like, that's what helped me. Like, you know, I think when you, you know, when you're in prison, man, like, you know, everybody plays basketball. Everybody plays sports.

And so, like, if you play sports, man, like, that becomes, like your circle. And they don't care about really anything. Yeah, it was like, can you hoop or not? You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what they care about. But I made some friends, you know what I'm saying? Of course, like, I made some guys who I still talk to. Yeah.

How did the time feel in the beginning when you first got there, especially when you're, you know, facing 17 years? What are those first few months or even the first year feel like? And do you start to keep track of it or do you just say, you know, it's basically I'm here forever? Yeah. You know what happens is when you, you have what they call prison.com.

You know what I'm saying? So it's always rumors going around. Like, you know, in North Carolina, they're going to pass this, this 65% law. They're going to do this, they're going to do that. They never passed any laws to let anybody out of prison in 17 years. But, you know, so part of me, like, was holding on to that, you know, that hope, you know. And hope is like, it's needed, but it's also a dangerous thing because when nothing happens,

like, you know, you're let down. but you also needed to keep going. So I had a hope that something would happen. You know, I would be able to get my charges ran together, you know, and I would get out. You know what I'm saying? So in the beginning, though, honestly, man, it's crazy because like right before I got out, I really started thinking about it. And I'm like, man, I made it.

You know, I'm trying to think like, how did I make it through those first few years, though, man? You know, like, you know, you're 23, you know, you have 17 years. Like, how did I, and I think it was just like, I was just taking it day by day. And I think it was all blur. And I remember going through processing and talking to, you know, you take a bunch of tests when you first come in the prison and you talk to a bunch of psychologists and you go through what they call diagnostics and you do all this shit. And I remember talking to the psychologist. She's like, you know, it's probably not going to hit you for a few years.

And of course, I'm like, you know, they gave me this time. I'm in prison. I'm talking to you. Like, I understand. But she was also right. it really didn't hit. So I think it was just all a blur. And I think I was just like, I was just like, man, like, I think I was just like living

day by day and holding on to hope that something would happen. Because, you know, at the time, I still, I was like, man, I cannot believe this happened to me. I cannot believe I'm here. You know what I'm saying? And so, but it did hit me. It did hit me. I think about four or five years in, it hit me.

Yeah, and I was at Eastern, so I got my medium custody and went to Eastern Correction, which is in Greenville, North Carolina, one of the better camps, very relaxed, like, you know, everything that you wanted, it was medium custody, but you still had a single sale, and so you still had some privacy and stuff like that. And so, you know, I got there, but I'm about four or five years in at the time. and, you know, when we go through things in life, you know, we realize whether it's a health issue or whether it's going to prison or whether it's some, you know, women have babies, you know what I'm saying, they get pregnant, right? You realize, like, who's your friends, who's really there for you and who's not,

right? And so, you know, there was no difference. So for me, like, a lot of the people had fallen out of, 98% of the people had fallen out to face the earth, right? I didn't have any. I didn't have any, any relationships. You know, in prison, you know, you kind of gauge how much you're worth and how much you love by how much mail you get, how often you get mail, how often you get visits, whether you click or not, right? And so I wasn't getting visits, wasn't getting mail. You know, so you're standing there every night, you know what I'm saying, waiting on a mail call, you know, there's people who write requests for them just so they can get mail back, you know what I'm saying? And so, you know, I wasn't getting any mail and didn't have any, like, really solid relationships, a couple people, you know what I'm saying?

But didn't have any money, and which is another thing, like, when you don't have any money in prison, it's terrible, you know? And so I started just getting really down on myself. And that's when it kind of hit me, you know, and I was, I reached probably like my lowest point then. And it was like, what, like 2000, let's see, I was in 2012. It was about 2013-ish, yeah. And so when that hits you and you have another 10 or 12 years left, what's going through your mind? Everything that you can imagine this goes through your mind. Everything that you can imagine goes to your mind.

Because, you know, I was, what, I was, what, I mean 28 at the time. Still got a dozen years in prison. Very little hope. And so, you know, I think, you know, when you start questioning your own self-worth and it's one of the worst feelings that you can have, you know, and then when you're, because, you know, if somebody else questions your worth, you know, you can write them out, who cares? It gives a fuck what they think, right? But you can't get away from yourself. You know what I'm saying? So when you start doubting yourself, that's one of the worst feelings that you can have. And so, you know, I remember. being about two in the morning. And I was running like a pool, like a playoff pool for the block, right? Like, NFL playoff pool. Everybody picked the team.

Like, everybody put food in together. Like, the two winners got whatever. Right. So I had a bunch of food in my room. None of it was mine, right? And I was starving, right? and I looked into, you know, all the food was in one side of the locker under my bed, right? So I looked into my side.

There's nothing in there. It was like three season packets from ramen noodles, right? That's it. So I put the seasoning packets, went to the back of the block, put some 190 water in the cup, put the seasoning packets to make some broth just to, like, last and quiet the rumbles until the morning, right? And so I'm drinking this water, right, this broth of season, ramen seasoning. And I just start like just getting like, I'm just like, man, like, you know, is it even worth like being here? Like nobody, like, who cares?

Like, nobody knows what I'm going through right now. And does anybody even care? You know what I'm saying? Like, if, you know? And so, like, I went through that for a little while. And I'll tell you what changed my life and what changed my perspective. And this kind of was the start of a complete change in my mentality and then the trajectory of my life. I read a book called Sid Arthur by Herman Hess, a German-Swiss guy.

And once I read this book and it's about an ascetic and he becomes a monk, he relinquishes all-worldly possessions and all this stuff. And I had this moment. And I was like, man, there are people who choose to give up all worldly possessions, all relationships, become nuns, become monks, right? They voluntarily choose that. Right. So it's not that I need these things or I need this freedom or I need this whatever to be happy or have peace or contentment in my life, right? It's not that people need that. Really, it's a matter of perspective.

right? It's a matter of values, right? It's a matter of like, all right, you know what, like, this is what's important to me, right? And, you know, and one of the primary things is gratitude, right? And I realized, like, in that moment, I'm like, man, you know, I can be even grateful for the bad things that happen to me because they teach me shit. You know what I'm saying? And so it was kind of in that moment where I was like, you know, I made a decision. Like, I'm just going to be grateful for everything. Right. All the small things, right? Like, I'm in prison, yeah, but I have a bed.

You know, I have clean water. I want to shower. I can take a shower. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm never going to starve, even though I'll be hungry. Like, I'm not going to actually starve. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can go outside.

I can lift weights. You know, I can watch TV. There's plenty of people in the world. There's half the world who don't have any of those things. They're not in prison, but they don't have any of those things. So, you know, I think that that was, like, the change and the shift for me psychologically to kind of help push. me towards like, you know, the path that I've been on since then.

Why do you think it takes someone going to prison to dive into books, to work on themselves, to better themselves? Why not do that before prison? Well, I don't think that it takes people necessarily going through prison to prison. I was always a reader. You know, I've been a reader my whole life. You know, when I was in Virginia, that's, you know, I always read. So that was. always been a part of me. But I do think that we don't typically, I don't think it's human nature to, we don't have a desire a lot of times to like learn certain lessons or even maybe the ability to learn certain lessons unless we're going through shit. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, we don't, we're not like getting better or learning like the important life lessons when everything is going good. Like, that's. That's not when we learn things. You know what I'm saying? Like, we learn things when we're kind of forced to a lot of times, you know, and we go through struggles. And so in my case, part of it was going to prison. But in somebody else's case, it could be having an illness.

You know what I'm saying? Because I think, like, when you go through things, like, big, like life changes or these struggles or adversity, right? It makes you more aware, you know what I'm saying? And in a way, like, it makes you feel alive. And I think that that's kind of like what happened to me. yeah you know i think i you know i kind of hit rock bottom like psychologically and i was like you know what like man you know either you're gonna you know and i remember when i was in the county

man this old guy you know he he he told me this man i wish i knew his name you know because i never forget him for this and he told me he's like listen man he's like man he's like man you're young he's like man this could either be your your um biggest stumbling block or your greatest stepping stone. He's like, it's up to you. You know, so, you know, I remember that. And I was like, you know, like, I'm not going to let this be my stomach. But, you know, I'm going to use this as a stepping stone. So, yeah.

Now, when you're in there, are you keeping track of the outside world, you know, changes in say politics or current events or music, everything? Yeah, yeah. Is that a positive thing or a negative thing that kind of try to keep up with the outside? It's a positive thing in one way, right? Like in a way, like when you're talking about politics and music and stuff like that, as much as you can, right? Like for the last 10 years, I had a subscription to a couple newspapers, the Wall Street Journal to USA Today. And, you know, got all the magazines.

People's magazines big, Us Weekly. Yeah, all of those things. See, now you got tablets. So all that stuff is on the tablet. But, yeah, I kept track of all that stuff. So those things, I think, are good, right, to keep track of. You also have to compartmentalize. because you can't get through being incarcerated,

especially for an extended amount of time, and live in there and live outside. You'll go crazy, right? So you do have the compartmentalize. You know, I have nieces and nephews that I love, you know, sisters, family. Like, I couldn't be in there every day, like, thinking about them. You know what I'm saying? And missing them and stuff.

I would have, they'd drive you crazy, you know? But as far as, like, all, like, the other stuff, yeah, I kept track of it. that stuff, definitely. Tell us about the bad days in prison. What were those like for you? The bad days, man, like, in what way? Like, you know, there's different kinds of bad days. You know, one of the worst days, I would say, when I was in prison was going to Tabor City. And, you know, Tabor City is a prison in North Carolina. They call it the Rock. nobody wants to go there and I was at a camp

and they were turning the camp over to minimum custody so they did a mass shipment and I've been in several mass shipments and so you know I don't know if you I know well I know you know but a lot of the viewers they may or may not know

but in prison you know when you move you know they'll come they'll give you three bags hey look put all your shit in these three bags if it doesn't fit in these three bags you're going to throw it away take to receiving, right, put it on a bus, take it. Everybody knew if you went to Tabor City and you had three bags,

you were going to leave out of receiving after they go through all your shit with two bags if you were lucky, right? Because they're going to take all your shit, right? So I go from Brown Creek, which Brown Creek was a wild camp. It was like a wild, wild west. So I go from there, go to Tabor City on a big bus. They put all of us on a bus. Two buses.

Take us all there. As soon as we pull up, right, big gates. clothes around the bus in the front of the prison, they come on the bus and immediately they're yelling, you know, talking shit, you know. You got boots on, throw them in the trash. You got a belt on, throw them in the trash. When you go in here, there's a big sign. It says everything that you can have. If you got anything above or more than this, you're throwing it away or you're sending it home at your own expense. Well, you go in there and they're like, well, you know, you can have 20 pictures, right? You can have five books and magazines.

right um you can't have oil you can't have any art supplies you can't have a coffee mug like all this even if you bought this stuff at other prison and you've had it for years once you get there it doesn't matter like you're throwing it away right and so i remember getting there and threw all my stuff away right like made me send all my pictures home you know they were counting drawings as photos right and so you know you get there and then you go into the blog It's 94 people in the blocks. Very small blocks. So it's just like fucking crowded.

It's ridiculous. You're double-sailed right there. So, you know, how your time is is largely dependent on who your cellmate is. Excuse me. And so, you know, if you have a good sellmate, it's cool. But that's just a random luck to draw. You have a bad cellmate who's dirty or, you know, doesn't have your same values or you It's in this shit, you know what I'm saying?

That can cause problems because you've got to live with this person. You know what I'm saying? So that was one of the worst days that I've been in. But I've been through, I've seen like some crazy stuff. Like I don't, I think if you remember Hurricane Helene that hit Asheville, North Carolina a couple of years ago. Yeah. So when Hurricane Helene hit, I was in Asheville, right? I was at this camp called Craggie.

And so when that Wednesday, I think, like, it was a big storm. The hurricane hit him on a Thursday, but that Wednesday was a big storm, knocked the power out. Power came back on that Thursday. And I'm looking on the tabs. I'm seeing there kind of talking about, like, this, you know, storm coming through or whatever. But you're not really thinking, like, it's like, man, we're in the fucking mountains of North Carolina. Like, you know, it's not, like, what is a hurricane going to really do, right?

But man, hurricane came through. It was crazy. Knocked the power out, knocked everything out. The city didn't have water. Prison ran out of water. They start running out of food. There's no power. There's no communication.

The officers can't even get out of the prison, so they have to live with the prison. Right. So we're there for a week. Right. No power, no water. it's 32 people in the block there. What they did was they would get the big trash hands.

They would fill it up with water from the creek. They have a five-gallon bucket in the water, and that's how we're supposed to flush the toilets, right? Now, one, you have 32 people in a block. Then the officers, they don't want to get water. When you run out of water, they don't want to get water half the time, right? So when we're in a block, it's 32 people. no water to flush the toilets. They're giving us four bottles of water a day, right, to drink,

to wash our hands, to wash our bodies, right? So no communication. Our families don't know where we're living or dying. I'll tell you what they gave us, right? After a few days, like, everybody's complaining, everybody's going crazy because we don't know what's going on, right? So they're like, oh, we're going to bring y'all down, you know, the state sent you all some stuff. We're going to bring y'all down to, you know, the receiving and pass out. man, they gave us, like, I think, six little packs of the Keefi coffee, like the single, they gave us six packs of the Keevi coffee and two batteries. And we don't even have hot water.

Like, we don't even have water. So what are we going to do with coffee, right? This is what they gave us, right? Did they give you flashlights or anything? No, they didn't give us flashlights. They just had, like, the generator had, like, the safety lights running on. And they had a water tower. So we had water, like, for a little while, but then it ran out.

You know what I'm saying? So then we didn't have it. We had water for like, I think, two days. What about food to eat? We had hot meals or no? We had hot meals for a couple days. And then they ran out. They started running out of stuff.

It was so bad. I mean, they had the officers in there, like, doing the work. Like, that's how, like, crazy it got. You know, they're not doing nothing. You know what I'm saying? They don't want to. But do you think they just weren't prepared for something like this? Definitely.

They definitely weren't prepared at all. Which, you know, you can't really. blame them for that because, you know, nobody, it was like a once in a century storm, you know, like it knocked the whole city down. So, you know, we stayed like that for a while. And, you know, I'm, you know, we have a radio, so that's, that's it. So I'm listening to the radio and I'm listening to all these stories about what's going on around the city in the city. You know, there's people who didn't hear like, you know, look, you know, I was on my roof when this, when, and I saw, like, my husband, like, you know, get washed away and I'm there, you know, I don't know where, you know, my

kid get washed away. And so I'm listening to all these stories. I'm like, man, like, what in the world is going on? Like, you know, and that's all we have. And I remember, I recall, like, to listen to the radio. And I heard somebody call in. It was a caller. They said, hey, you know, like, I would just like to ask about, like, what's going on with the people who were in Asheville jail and the prison, right? The radio host was like, why are you asking? Who cares about them people. So I'm like, man, like, you know, this is how people think, right? Like, you know, and so, um, so, you know, the worst part was we went through all that. Eventually after a week, they call in the, the pert team. So the pert is the, you know, a prison

emergency response team. Um, they come in to evacuate us. Um, you know, they come in, like, the military. Like, we're the ones who caused like the hurricane and they lock. us down. They're standing like, you know, at attention at every exit, you know, when they get ready that morning to ship us out, you know, we all have our stuff. I end up going awake. And so they're like, line up by your bunks. And, you know, we're going to call out your name. When you call out your name, you say your inmate number, you get your stuff, go to the front of the block, right? Directed, organized. Okay, cool, right, whatever, right. You know, everybody I know when they come in there, they yell, they try to antagonize you.

So a guy who's beside me, they call his name. He says his number. He starts walking to the front. Gets a few steps, realizes he left his hat. He's like, hey, he's like, can I get my hat? Immediately they start screaming on him. No, da-da-da-da-da-da. Right.

So he's like, oh, he's like, whoa, bro. Like, you know, I just want my hat. Push him. dude pushing him down, he falls down in between the bunks. All these dudes are big, right? So he falls down between the two bunks. And now he's mad. So before he can even, like, really say anything,

he starts, like, you know, defending himself, right, verbally. Right, because he's sat down on the ground between the two bunks, right? They just empty a whole can of mace in his face, right? His mouth in his face. Right. So now he's, like, screaming. He's like, you know, hollering, cursing. saying him when we got on the bus he's lumped up they don't beat him up right all because the man

asked for his hat and these aren't isolated situations right these are things that i've seen over the years time and time again right because what happens is a lot of time man these these officers at these prisons they can do whatever they want to and it's your word against theirs right so it doesn't matter like there is no no truth right they do that they put you in a hole they beat you up, right? And then you know what? If they say, oh, you know, he attacked the officer or he did this. Nah, bro, like you did all that. You know what I mean? Like, so that was definitely a difficult period in prison. That was a rough week, man. Now, did you have any family support you over

these 17 years or were you pretty much on your own? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I had family support. You know, I had friends, you know, I was, I was. I was very fortunate enough, especially like the last, like, 10 years or so to not need anything. You know what I'm saying? Not want for anything. And even be able to do a lot for the guys inside as well. You know what I'm saying? That became like something that was very, very important to me.

Is to, you know, I think when you have resources in there, you kind of have a responsibility, man. You know what I'm saying? to like make the that situation better you know what I'm saying make the little piece of the world around you better and so that became something that like I did you know in different ways you know whether it's buying books for people you know I might buy everybody a book for Christmas you know I would just like pick like four books and then just buy them and then just pass them out right like or, you know, when I got the camps with food sales, you know, this is something that I became, like, kind of known for.

Every camp that I was at is, you know, we have outside food sales. And so maybe once a month, twice a month, you know, they will put up things. You could order pizza or Chinese food or whatever. So I would buy, like, maybe $300, $400 worth of food plates and give them out. And I would have a list, right? And I will have a list of people who, you know, some guys who had life sentences. They've been down for 30 years. They don't have anybody, you know what I'm saying?

And I would give them to specific guys, but then sometimes, like, I would just, I would just, like, observe, you know what I'm saying, like, who is moving in a way where they're respectful? They're trying to get better that they have, like, earned this from me. And I would just give it to no strings attached. And if you know about being in prison, man, sometimes, man, like, you know, there are people who go years and they don't have any outside contact, any outside support. nobody shows them any love, you know what I'm saying? And if people do show them love, they want something from it, right? So having somebody just randomly, like, give you some McDonald's or some Chinese food that you haven't had in years, it can have a major impact on somebody in there. And so, like, you know, I made it a point to do that all the time. So, yeah, so obviously, you know, I'm great because I had support and I was able to do that. No, what are the benefits of having those programs in prison? Because there's going to be some people that think, oh, inmate shouldn't have, you know, McDonald's or pizza

or have that luxury of being able to buy it. Yeah. I think the benefits of having them is that it kind of keeps you attached to, like, a feeling of humanity, you know, because you get dehumanized by everything in there. You know, the food that they serve. in prisons is barely edible. You know, I've been in camps where they have

like pets, like animals or they have dog programs and stuff that sometimes the animals don't even eat the food that they serve. You know, like you put a chicken patty or something in front of the cat, the cat's going to sniff and walk away. You know, that's when you know the food is terrible, man, like, you know,

and so, you know, it's, one is, I think it it gives people a taste of the outside and it keeps people feeling like humans because the bottom line, right, is that the people who make the claim where, you know, these people, they deserve to be punished and they don't deserve to have cable TV or they don't deserve to have food sales or they don't deserve to have these things, right? I think that they're only thinking, right, in one way, right?

because the truth is most people who are incarcerated are going to get out, right? And when these people get out, where are they going? They're going back to your communities, right? They're going to be your neighbors, right? Their kids are going to be going to school with your kids, right? They're going to be serving you at restaurants, right? They're going to be walking, shopping alongside you at Walmart, right? So do you want these people to be completely dehumanized, right?

or, right, do you want these people to be better? And so I think that that's the problem that a lot of prisons have now because they're mainly just warehouses, right? If you go on most prisons, websites, right, they'll have a list of all of these programs. Have the programs are obsolete. They just steal on the website. Nobody's ever, you know, changed it, right? The ones that they do have a lot of times, they don't do anything, right?

Like, it's nothing. They, you know, guys use a lot of these programs. these classes and stuff, either to stay at certain camps or to go to certain camps or to conduct business or whatever, right? You know, they're not, and so part of it is on the inmates, right? But part of it is like a lot of these programs, man, like these people, they don't care, you know. And so it's like, you know, it's not a rehabilitation. You really have to be self-disciplined in order to come out of prison better, right? because the structure and the programs and their treatment is not going to do it.

Was it hard to see people go home? Nah, man. Nah, man. Like, you know, I've never been like that. You know, there are people who were like that, right? But I've never been like that. I was always, like, very, very happy, you know, even at the beginning, you know what I'm saying? Like, when guys went on, man, I was always really happy.

And, you know, I knew that my time was coming. I hope that my time was coming. But no, it wasn't, it was, it was, I always liked to see that, man. Yeah, I always like to see that. Is there no good time in North Carolina? No, there's no good time. You got a maximum, right? You work your maximum down to your minimum, and that's it.

So you had to do day for day on that sentence? Yeah, yeah. That did full, 204 months, 17 years on the diet. So what was your maximum? Let's see, 71 months times four. So it was probably like 24 years, something like that. So that's more than 204 months? Yeah.

Oh, so they give you two sentences at sentencing? Yeah, yeah. So they give you a minimum and a maximum. And the judge gave you the minimum? No, no. So like in North Carolina, they got structured sentencing. Okay. Right.

So structured sentencing, like, is depending on your charges, you have a mitigated. Every charge has a mitigated range, presumptive range, and aggravated range, right? So, you know, in every sentence, you have two dates. you have a minimum and a maximum, right? So it could be 51 months and 71 months, right? So when you start your sentence, you start out at 71 months. And they give you time for, like, staying out of trouble if your assignment. So they give you time, but it comes off your maximum.

It doesn't come off your minimum. So no matter what happens, you can't go below your minimum. You get what I'm saying? So, you know, for me, I had to. do each of those sentences. So I had to make sure that I stayed out of trouble and I stayed on assignment right the entire time, you know. What was your biggest fear coming out of prison as you approached your date? And were you worried, you know, about being institutionalized or not being able to readapt? No, man. So I answered the second part first. I wasn't I wasn't worried

about being able to adapt because I think that prison can teach you how to adapt in a way that not many other situations can teach you. You know, because again, like, you know, they can come into your sale at any time, you know, shine a light on you. You say, hey, listen, here's your three bags, you know, here's your shit. And you got to move to a different city, to a different camp, with different people, with different rules, you know what I'm saying? And so you have to adapt, right? Moving block to block, you have to adapt because the energy and the vibe and everything in every block is different, you know, so you have to adapt to that situation. And so I think that, you know, in a way, like,

prison teach taught me, like, how to be very, very adaptable. And I think that's, like, one of the basic, like, human functions, right? And so, um, my biggest fear coming out, um, that's a good question. I'm not even sure that, like, I had a huge fear outside of, um, just just wanting to like I think realize like you know in my potential I'm wanting to make it meaningful you know like I think that was like the biggest thing not like failing to like make it mean something on the other side you know because if I don't do that then what's it for like if I don't use this to like help people whether it's with my own lessons or at risk youth or you know guys who are coming out you know what I'm saying and set an example that

You can do this time, right? You can utilize it and you can come out and you can still build a life for yourself. If I don't, then that's a fear that I had. But other than that, man, like, I was ready. You know, what you were saying about adaption is really interesting because guys and women do, or they are forced to adapt to so many different circumstances, new units, new prisons, new people, but then they struggle when they get out. But it's the same thing, just a different environment.

But it's the same mindset in a way. without having the barrier of there's going to be food guaranteed put on your plate. You have that safety net, you know, that prison gives you. But then you give up, though, the danger aspect when you come out on the free world, too. So there's cons and pros, but it's interesting. Yeah, yeah, it is very interesting. And a lot of people do struggle. Again, like, I think that I don't know where.

I think a lot of times people get used to, to, you know, not making choices, right? Because when you're in prison, your choices are so, so limited, right? And when you're out here, you have this just abundance of choice, right? And abundance of distraction, right? And so I think that people have a hard time adapting to that. You know, whereas like, I think my, I have such high expectations of myself that like, if anything, I have a hard time give myself grace, right?

And when I got out and like allowing myself to kind of like, and I did, I did. You know, I gave myself grace. You know, I kind of like I didn't go as hard in the gym. You know what I'm saying? I ate what I wanted. I was very disciplined in there. You know what I mean? I'm eating like macro and rice and protein shakes every day.

You know what I'm saying? For years, that's it. Oatmeal, you know, like. And so I came out and I'm like, man, like, I can eat whatever I want. You know what I'm saying? Like, I can eat whatever I want. So, you know, I think that that was something that, that I struggled. struggle with.

But I think, you know, I think that one of the things that people also struggle with a lot of times is when you're in there, you're surrounded by people who, even if you don't get along with, right, you're sharing trauma, you're sharing an experience. You have an understanding of like what everybody's going through, right? And then when you come out, you know, you're not around. people all day, every day who understand your experience and share your experience, you know what I'm saying? And so I think a lot of times people also are very worried about being judged, you know, and not having opportunities and things of that nature. So I think that they're afraid to tell

their story or to, you know, be vulnerable or, you know, to take chances. I think that that's what, that's what, you know, that's one of the negative things that prison does to a lot of people. Is that first day out of prison what you expected it to be? I'm sure, you know, you ran through it a hundred times in your mind. Man, the first day out, I can, I'll start like, I'll start like a little bit prior to it leading up, you know. I was always somebody, you know, I have a lot of confidence in myself. So I'm like, man, you know, I'm good. Like, you know, a lot of guys get anxious, right, especially after doing a lot of time.

I'm like, man, I'm good. no anxiety people ask me question you know you talk to a bunch of people and I mean I'm good like and and uh the last like week I started to get a little bit anxious um some of it was irrational because even though I made it through all this time I'm like man like what if something happens to me like before I get out you know what I've done all this time and then something happens and um but I ended up being good that morning of course I couldn't sleep that night before I got up that morning, put all my stuff, you know, turned all my stuff in. You know, my family was out there. You know, they had a little banner, you know, and it was another guy who was getting out the

same day as me as well. And, you know, by this time, man, like, you know, I got in like a lot of respect on a yard, you know, and it's not like respect because, you know, I was the toughest guy on a yard or anything like that. It was because, you know, I was a good dude. You know what I'm saying? They knew that, you know, like, I'm not going, I'm not, you know, I'm not taking no shit, but like, you know, I'm a good dude and I care. And I think that they, you know, they knew that I was going to represent for them well outside. And so everybody was outside on the yard, man. Like, it was probably like 50 guys just like waiting with me. You know what I'm saying? Like out there. And it was a beautiful thing, man. And it was the first time I had seen that happening. And, you know, and so get out,

go get something to eat and spend time on my people. And, you know, even eating like their first minute, honestly, like, it was just like, it was so overwhelming and it was so surreal being out, putting on clothes, you know what I'm saying? Like putting on clothes and walking out the gates. And then, you know, even looking at the menu, I remember going to the restaurant, and went to his little restaurant in Winston-Salem, North Carolina. I forget the name, a little breakfast place, and I looked at the menu. It's been so long since I looked at the menu. I'm like, yeah, I don't even know what to eat.

You know, so my sister was like, I'm just going to get the wavos or rancheros. So I'm like, well, I'm going to get that to. You know, have a little drink. And it was just so surreal, man, just being out and free. It was like such a relief, man. And I think you don't realize while you're in the weight that is on your shoulders. And even though, you know, stress and tension, you know, are ubiquitous in prison, right? Like, stress and tension are just in the fabric of being incarcerated, like, every day, whether it's, you know, obvious or whether it's kind of like, you know,

cover. And so you don't realize, like, how much weight you carry until you get out, you know, and then it's like, you know, I can fucking breathe now. You know what I mean? Like, um, but yeah, man, that the first day was amazing. Um, and, you know, it's been, it's been like, uh, it's been a beautiful journey since, you know, I got out September 12th last year. So, you know, it's been almost a year, man. And, uh, it's been a year. And, uh, it's been a beautiful journey since, you know, I got out September 12th. You know, you have nine months post-release, which I had no problem doing, you know. And so, you know, I've been out a year working on my book. I started streaming.

I've done really well streaming. So I just basically, I jumped right into everything, you know, learning AI, building the AI dashboard, you know what I'm saying, myself to try to like, you know, have, make a, you know, an e-commerce business. So I started, you know, I have an LLC that I'm building. So, like, I just kind of just jump right back into everything, man. And I think the main thing that I get from it, and that's I talk to people about it all the time. And, you know, I've been mentioned it before.

It's just gratitude, man. You know, still, when I, when I wake up in the morning, man, you know, I can walk downstairs. I can walk outside whenever I. I want to. You know, I can open a refrigerator, you know, and, you know, I think it's just like, it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. And that's one of the best things. That's why I'm so grateful for my experience, because without that experience, I wouldn't have that sense of gratitude, you know, that I have. What's the hardest thing to adjust to after serving 17 years in prison? Man, you know what the hardest thing, honestly? Because I'm in social media and I'm

dream. Trolling is like a thing now, right? Like people get on the internet and they say whatever they want to say, right? And there's no consequences to it, right? And so, you know, I come from an environment in 17 years where you have to be very mindful of who you talk to, what you say to them, how you say it to them, right? because it can have very immediate and dangerous consequences, right? So then I come out into the world.

I start screaming on Bego. People just say whatever they want to. And so I'm like, hey, man, there's no consequences. Like what happens? Like, they get blocked. They get kicked out of a room. Then they just make another page and go harass somebody else or come back and harass you.

And there's no consequences. And people, I think nowadays are so desensitized to it on social media. So I think that that's one thing is the lack of respect that people have and how they talk to each other online. If you don't like somebody, just go to another live. Don't watch the podcast if you don't like it. You know what I'm saying? Why do you feel it necessary to watch a whole podcast and then leave a terrible comment or watch somebody's live? And like, why is that, you know, something that you feel like you have to do?

So I think that that is like something that I've had to adjust to. And then I think on the other side, it's. I think we, you know, when I got locked up, it was 2008. So that very first iPhone came out in 2007, you know. And when I get out, you know, the iPhone 17 is coming out, you know. So nobody has smartphones when I got locked up. Now, everybody has smartphone and it does everything. And Amazon was selling CDs.

There was no DoorDash. There was no Instacart. You know, so. now you can literally, you don't have to leave your house. You can get instant gratification with everything, right? And I think it's changed the psychology to where, you know, the masses expect everything to happen instantly, whether that's dating, whether that's love. You know what I'm saying? Everybody, you know, they want everything instantly.

And I think that that's also something I've had to adjust to because in prison, you have to wait for every fucking thing. Yeah, how's dating been for you? Oh, dating's been interesting, man. You know, again, like, it's like, you know, in my personal experience, like, a lot of time, man, like, I have conversations and I'd be like, hey, look, you know, I want freedom. You know what I'm saying? Like, I did this amount of time. I was in prison for my whole 20s and 30s.

And, you know, and, you know, women will be like, well, I understand. You know what I'm saying? And then until they don't understand until they want everything, you know, and it's like, you know, I need some space, you know, to be me to live my life. You know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I just recently went on a solo trip to Puerto Rico, you know, and it wasn't about women. It was it.

It was just about me. But, you know, sometimes it's hard for, you know, them to accept that, you know. So, yeah. You know, it's an interesting concept about the post-release, only nine months supervision, and then you're on your own. you're not on any other parole or probation at all. I feel like the feds or even other states should pick that up. For sure.

Not to have, I mean, there's plenty of guys that it'll do 20 years, and then they still have another five years. It's ridiculous. Supervised release or 10 years in some cases. Yeah, yeah. I feel like nine months is a good, or even six months, maybe is a good amount of time. And then they could choose to extend it if that person's had any issues. Yeah, exactly, exactly.

And see, for me, like, you know, I knew that I was going to be successful. So it's not hard to go to parole, you know, or a probation officer once a month, right? It's not hard to pay the $40. But it's crazy, though, because it's like, well, in North Carolina, when you get out of prison, I think if you do two or more years, right, so I did 17 years, it gives you a $45 gate check, right? So they give you $45. then you have to pay $40 a month to be on probation. So it's like, you know, $40 a month doesn't seem like a lot to some people, but to some people it is.

You know, some people who get out of prison and they don't have money, they don't have family, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're surviving paycheck to paycheck. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, well, how do you expect people to pay that? And then, you know, they may have a hard time getting work and all these different things. So, yeah. So, yeah, for me,

it was easy, but, you know, some guys have a hard time with it, and you know, you hear a lot of guys that are in and out of prison, and they're like, oh, you know, I were, you know, I got out and I intentionally, you know, broke my, and I'm like, bro, like, that makes no sense. Like, you're going to have restrictions no matter what. So either you're going to be in prison with way more restrictions, or are you going to be out of prison, you know, and have some restrictions? Yes, it wasn't, it was an easy process for me, though. Now, how do you make amends with the past? Is there restitution?

Do you think that the prison sentence settled it? Do you want to talk to the people that you may have hurt in the past? How do you look at that? Yeah, it's no, I didn't have to pay restitution. You know, I think I would like to talk to him. You know what I'm saying? Like, if I knew them, you know, like if I was able to, and they were willing, I would like to talk to them.

And just, like, apologize and, you know, accept and kind of just like, you know, kind of reassure them that, you know, I'm a different person and I would definitely wouldn't make the same decisions. And, you know, I'm actively trying to, you know, make the little world around me a better place, you know, and motivate people and inspire people to be better. I do think that the prison sentence was a lot, you know, it was a lot, you know. So, you know, And that's the other thing. You know, I was like, well, you know, if people complain or they have something to say, I'm like, look, you know, I made mistakes and I paid a heavy consequence for it, right?

You know, a lot of times people make mistakes and they don't really, they don't always pay consequences for them. You know what I'm saying? Like, and there's a lot of people, you know, who, they were, they would be so quick to judge somebody who's been to prison or who has a felony record. but I think that they don't realize how close that they are to go into prison, right? Or somebody who they love is to go into prison. And it's not about whether we make mistakes in life or whether we fail or not, because everybody fails. Everybody makes mistakes, right?

Really, it's about what are we doing after that? How do we respond to those things? That's really like how you define, your character because, you know, none of us are the best thing that we've ever done only or the worst thing that we've ever done only. The saint, you know what I'm saying? Mother Teresa, you know,

has probably had some fucked up thoughts before. You know what I'm saying? And the worst person has probably done some condes before. So I think we're a mix of everything. But, you know, obviously, like, we want to be, do way more good than we do bad in the world. You know, and I think that that's what, you know, I'm trying to promote.

And that's what, Yeah, that's what my goal and my mission is, you know. What would you say to the person that might judge you based off of your past, you know, look at an article if there is one and they see you as that person that did the robberies and got a lengthy prison sentence? What do you say to that person? Yeah, I'm whatever you say I am. You know what I'm saying?

Like, you know, to quote M&M, like, if that's what you think of me, like, if you think that that's the only thing, right, like, you have to be mindful of it. it's an incomplete picture at best, right? It's an incomplete picture. I'm 41 years old now, right? You don't look it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm 41, you know, and so it's like, I made those decisions over the course of three weeks of my life.

So those three weeks cost me 17 years in prison. I would ask them if they were willing to have a conversation about it. It's like, I want you to tell me the worst thing that you've ever done or the worst. thing that you've ever thought. And would you want somebody to judge you solely based on that? Do you think that defines the totality of your character or your existence as a human being? And if they're honest, they're going to say no. If they're dishonest, they're going to lie, and now I'm just going to know that they're full of shit. You know what I'm saying? It's not even worth me having a conversation with them. But for me, like, I feel like the right people are

going to love me and the right people aren't going to love me. And so that's why, I get on stream and I talk about it. That's why, you know, I'm having a conversation with Mr. Ian Vic on the locked-in podcast because, you know, I feel like it's important to talk about our stories, you know what they are. You know, everybody has a different story. You know, some people graduate high school and they go into the military. Some people have aggressive childhood leukemia and die, you know, when they're a baby.

You know, some people get married and have. have the whole, you know, American drink. Some people go to prison, right? We all have stories, you know what we're also all connected. And we're more alike than we are different, you know, no matter what our story is, no matter what our journey is. So, yeah. Well, Mike, I appreciate you coming on the show today, man. Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure, man. Yeah, the pleasure's all mine. You know, I wish you the best on your journey. Yeah, thank you. You too, man. And, yeah, I'll keep supporting you, man, and everything that you do, man. I appreciate you giving me the platform and opportunity to talk and tell my story to the people. Of course, and we'll have the links to all your

stuff in the description this episode. For sure. Thank you, man. Appreciate you.