Locked In with Ian Bick - I Worked Inside Rikers Island — It Was Hell | Matt Frey

Episode Date: February 3, 2026

Matt Frey spent seven years working as a therapist inside Rikers Island from 2011 to 2018, a job he never imagined taking growing up in the suburbs of New York. In this episode, Matt gives a rare inside look at day-to-day life at Rikers from the inmate perspective, breaking down what really happens in both General Population and Mental Observation housing. He shares firsthand experiences with extreme violence, inmate suicides, unprovoked attacks on staff, and the psychological toll of working inside one of America’s most notorious jail systems. Matt also explains how inmates sometimes manipulate mental health services for protection or legal advantage, what it’s like hearing confessions protected by confidentiality, and the surreal reality of assessing people just hours after seeing their alleged crimes on the news. Now running his own psychotherapy practice after leaving Rikers, Matt reflects on boundaries, trauma, and how working inside the jail changed him forever. _____________________________________________ #RikersIsland #PrisonStories #TrueCrimePodcast #JusticeSystem #PrisonLife #MentalHealthInPrison #LifeBehindBars #lockedin _____________________________________________ Thank you to AVA for sponsoring this episode: Take control of your credit today. Download the Ava app and when you join using my promo code LOCKEDIN, you’ll get 20% off your first year—monthly or annual, your choice. _____________________________________________ Connect with Matt Frey: Instagram: @freymentalfitness @outliftathletics @mcfrey27 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61585253558683 _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Life Inside Rikers Island (What No One Sees) 01:14 Meet Matt: A Therapist Inside Rikers Island 03:00 From Rikers Island to Private Practice 07:12 Matt’s Early Life & Why He Chose Mental Health 13:55 First Jobs in Mental Health & Prison Work 18:43 First Day Working at Rikers Island (Shock & Reality) 20:44 How Therapy Works Inside a Jail 23:10 Violence, Suicides & Mental Health at Rikers 27:29 Solitary Confinement & Its Psychological Damage 32:58 Daily Life at Rikers: Safety, Filth & Neglect 37:06 Confidentiality, Courts & Ethical Dilemmas in Jail 45:01 The Human Side of Rikers: Trauma & Inmate Stories 53:34 Why He Left Rikers Island 01:00:26 Lessons Learned About Justice, Mental Health & Reform Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Like unprovoked Teeth knocked out, nose broken, jaws broken And that's just therapists And we're the least likely people to get hurt there. Like the officers get attacked, they get slashed, faces cut. I didn't know this was a thing before I started working there, that there's a culture of trying to disfigure other people.

How do you feel about solitary? Inmates are constantly fearful for their lives in their housing areas, and we'll use mental health to get sent to mental observation where it's a little safer. When you sit with those individuals like the murderers you were describing earlier, the people you see on TV, does it match the person that you see in the news? I think every day was a shock. There was an adrenaline rush to it also, like just working in that kind of It's like you're on high alert.

Officers are very hypervigilant all the time. Actually think their lifespan after they retire is like five years. In this episode, you're going to hear what life inside Rikers Island is really like from someone who worked there for seven years as a therapist. Matt Fry breaks down day-to-day life in general population and mental observation housing. The violence and suicides most people never see and the psychological games inmates play to survive, along with how the job changed him long after he walked out. Matt, welcome to Lockton. Thanks so much for coming out here today.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Yeah, we just got it over a brutal snowstorm. Yeah, what did they get, 18 inches around here? Yeah, almost two feet. I haven't seen this much snow, and we were out of commission for the last, like, couple days. I didn't leave the house to, like, yesterday afternoon. Yeah, I wasn't sure to be able to, uh, I was coming from Long Island to shovel out in time, but I broke a sweat and ended up making it. My dad got one of those, like, electric shovels. I was using that to help them, shovel out their house yesterday.

I actually took a leaf blower and started my driveway with that when it was still light, and then it got too heavy. I see people with leaf blowers all the time because sometimes the snow is really soft, so you could just blow it. Yeah, it was cleaning off the cars that way. It was actually pretty good. Yeah. So thank you for the merch if you want to tell everyone about your company and what you got going on.

Yeah, Frye Mental Fitness. We have a private practice inside Outlift Athletics. So we really focus on people who are really locked into their physical health. It's like the first like mental health private practice within a gym. And it's like an amazing 24,000 square foot gym. And east of Tockeet in Long Island. It's one of the best gyms in Long Island. And so people will come, you know, based on their schedule, get like a 45-minute session of therapy, do their workout.

So it's like killing two birds of one stone. work on your mind and your body at the same time. And we really focus on helping people become the best versions of themselves in all areas of life. It's also working on past things, like trauma, and restoring their mental health, and also not necessarily waiting to be in a crisis to get help. Really like focusing on any area of their life that they want to improve, whether it's relationships, parenting, marriages, things that work. work. I used to work with a lot of corporate companies. So everyone has issues at work, toxic bosses. You know, I worked at Rikers for seven years from 2011 to 2018. So knowing the backstabbing,

the sociopaths and those kind of things help me prepare to work in corporate America, I feel like. And that really benefits a lot of the clients that I've had. Do you find yourself having a lot of formally incarcerated? Not, well, different populations since I'm in the suburbs now. It's not like it was at Rikers Island, but definitely still have people that have throughout their lives done time in jail at certain points. I feel like they'd be more comfortable with you because you have that experience. Yeah. They'll look at my profile, see Rikers and say that's different when they're looking at like a therapist background.

I feel like Rikers produces some of the best therapists. I don't know if you ever saw that special with the documentary on Stutz by Jonah Hill. That's his therapist. He started out at Rikers Island. Oh, that's what came out last year on Netflix. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked on Rikers?

Yeah, that's where he started. Oh. It's like a boot camp for, like, clinicians. You get, like, the sharpest skills because you're working a day-to-day crises, crisis management, every kind of mental illness you could possibly imagine. And that kind of prepares you when you want to go out from there. And also they have overtime. So you can be working up to 80 hours a week.

You really get to hone your skills so much better than if you're like an outpatient setting and rack up those hours and experience. And it really helps, you know, when you move on from there. Did you always want to get into this line on work as a kid? I started out as a tourism major in college. To be like what, like a tour guide or travel agent? I wanted, I like being on vacation, I wanted to work at like a Hyatt, like in the Bahamas or something. Yeah, that would have been cool.

I know. And one of my buddies ended up sticking with that major and ended up in Hawaii, like in this amazing resort. And that was his life. But I thought that the major was too easy, so I switched over to psychology. And I found that to be more challenging. And I thought the mind was interesting and what motivated people. And so I really, after that, decided to go into social work school to become a therapist. Where do you grow up?

Rockland County, Suffering. It's about 45 minutes north of New York City and the border of Bergen County, New Jersey, and Westchester. So a ton of malls around. A lot of shopping. What did your parents do for work? My mom was a teacher in Rockland. and my dad was actually owned his own business but he was when he was 36 uh he had a back surgery that left him paralyzed um they messed up um and so he had he hasn't worked since he was

36 um and that really had a big impact i think on on just like the structure of the family and like i guess when you're i was nine years old at the time and just like the impact on mental health. Like back then, there really was no words for like depression, anxiety. There was no internet to look up. And so it was really tough. And I think that sort of helped propel me into wanting to help other people going through like hard times and similar things. And like before that, he was like a James Bond figure, handsome, like this business owner, young. He was like 250 muscle. And then you come, I was a sleepway camp and came home and he was in a hospital. And It's just like something that you don't really expect and kind of shakes you to your core.

And, like, I think really produces, like, this kind of existential anxiety in you that, like, things are not always going to be, you know, perfect or the way they were or the way you thought they would be. And, yeah, so that kind of, like, influenced me wanting to help other people when I, like, later in life, when I decided, like, this is, path I wanted to choose. Which parent do you think instilled the most traits I carried over to your career now? I would say my mother, she doesn't have a mean bone in her body, just pure empathy, and just the nicest person I think anybody would describe. It's just like kindness. I think that's her virtue. And I think my dad's work ethic, you know, carried over to be able to start my own business and pushed through at Rikers, even though that was really

hard for many years. How were you in high school? How would your best friend describe you? Funny, loyal, like a good ear to listen to. And just like an active person, like playing sports,

hanging out, just having fun, really. Had no, like, didn't know what I wanted to do. I wasn't even thinking about the future. I was just kind of, of living in the day, day to day for most of the time. Yeah, I think I said they would describe that. Say you're sitting around at the lunch table with your friends talking about the future.

Do you ever think you would have been working in a prison years later? No. I thought I would do some kind of business, but I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And I didn't even really know what that looked like. So many times we are going to careers or people might hate talking in front of other people. but they decide to become a teacher. And they don't realize until years later that it's not like the job for them. So, yeah, I don't think, I think a lot of times also it's the first job you can get out of college

really kind of starts that path. Like, you just get what you can take. And you don't really know whether, you know, you have a passion for what you're doing. If it's like an operations job or a finance job, you're just trying to get a paycheck at that point. And then I think once you have more experience and more say, like in a company, you can kind of move, gravitate towards where you. Hannity presents. In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guys.

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Bring a date, your team, or even your mom. Book direct at choiceotails.com. See you on the roof. It's always so interesting looking on social media to see where your friends from high school ended up, like, what everyone's doing and because you would sit around at the table or at parties or hanging out and talk about things. So we see students I've noticed are the ones CEOs and like the straight A students are doing fine,

but like it's always the ones you don't expect that like are just killing it. Yeah, I think the biggest takeaway I learned from my whole high school experience is it's not worth it to kill yourself in high school to get like that A plus top. of the class, grind and miss out on that whole experience, because chances are that's not going to carry over into your future careers. Yeah. I heard Gary Vee say that recently, that one thing he does regret was not going to more like parties in high school and having more fun in college also. And I think it's important to also live your life while focused on your future goals. How did your parents react to you switching majors?

I don't think there was much of a reaction. I think they were fine. They're just like, do you. Like, this is your life. You choose what, you know, where it goes. I think probably, like to themselves, they said this was probably a good fit. There was no objection or anything. What was your first job out of college? My first. Before grad school, I was working at a company.

It was like an offshoot of eBay, and it was like selling things online, collecting things from like these really upscale neighborhoods and then like reselling them. like a luxury. I think they changed the name of it to Portaro at some point. I think they're out of business now. But it was just listing things, doing the research on items and posting them, and making other people a lot of money, I think. So it wasn't your career that you were going into it?

And then I was installing garage doors for a while. I worked at a pizzerie. I did all sorts of different kind of jobs before I decided to return to school. And then my first job after grad school was an outpatient. treatment center for substance abuse. And so I was doing groups and individual counseling and intakes. And that was when I had someone in my group that was, I think, like 40, 42. And I read in his file that he was on parole for murder for 25, and it's did 25 years. And I was like, he must have gotten young because he was so like young now. And he was so polite. And he was so polite.

and well-mannered. And it's kind of, I guess at that age, I had this preconception that, like, if you kill someone, you're an asshole 24 hours a day. And that's, like, not the case at all. And you could still be charming and polite and, like, do all these other things. And I think that opened my eyes to being open-minded, you know, when meeting people in life and not judging based on, like, the worst thing they did. Like, even if they do, what they do is inhumane, they're still human beings and they still deserve like the best treatment they can get. Working in that role, what was your biggest takeaway about addiction? It's emotional pain.

I think basically it equals emotional pain and people are trying their best to self-medicate and escape that with the tools or lack of tools that they have. And so if it's drugs, it's successful for a short amount of time and then it's more pain than pleasure. And that's where people really get caught up. Do you think a lot of these addiction cases start in their childhood? I do. I think, well, at least when I was working at Rikers, definitely in the women's jail and in men's jail. I worked in both.

A lot of trauma, a lot of drug addiction. And the two, I think, really go hand in hand. I don't think you're going to find too many people without some kind of traumatic experience. and it could be as seemingly mild as a breakup with so on. But if you're suicidal after a breakup, drugs and alcohol is a good comfort initially. And that's where I think people start to take it a little too far. And then they realize this kind of is taking the pain away.

And if you're feeling pain all the time, that's where it starts to lead to impairing other areas of life. What have you found is the main reason why some people get sober and others don't or have a tough time to get sober? I think people with the more support tend to have a better chance. The ones, I guess if you're leaving jail and you don't have any family out there, you don't have a place to live, you end up back in the shelter system, constant drugs, constant violence, you're not in a good spot. it's much harder to get sober than if you have a house to go to or a sibling you can live with and get the treatment and have a place to stay. And also people hitting rock bottom, I guess, you know, they say like, I hit bottom, I want to get sober and they try to go to treatment. And

there's always that trap door where people end up, you know, finding out they have an even worse bottom before they try to turn things around. And, And also, I think growing up, if you start a family and things, those are like a big reason that people start turning their life around also because it's not just about them anymore. It's really they need to be responsible and not pass that trauma on to, you know, someone they're trying to raise. One of the most frustrating things for me when I was trying to fix my credit was secured cards. I remember being told, just put down a deposit, but the problem was I didn't have extra

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That's promo code locked in. Thanks to Ava. Now go get yourself good credit. Do you think people genuinely have to want to get sober on their own? It can't be forced upon someone? I think they could be forced. I mean, if it's mandated and the therapist is doing a good job in planting seeds, I think that helps.

And then when they are ready, they'll have the knowledge to get sober. Like, they'll know how to or where to reach out to start that path towards recovery. After that first job, where do you go? After that job, I saw an opening at Rikers as a discharge planner in Roses, which is the female jail. And so that was a temp job. I noticed the pay was higher than other social work jobs. I figured probably because who the hell wants to work in hell. And so I was like, I'll give it a try.

the worst that happens is it lasts a week or two, okay, at least it's an experience. And so, you know, you had to get comfortable with the doors closing behind you, being locked in the whole culture and subculture and subculture within a subculture that 95% of the world actually never see. And so I was there for eight months. And then I got a full-time job in the men's jails as a therapist where I stayed about six, seven years. You know, on Rikers, there's like 11 different jails.

You do overtime in any of the jails. But I was in GMDC, C-73. I don't know why there's all these different names for all these buildings. It's the same jail. Like they just call AMKC is also C-91, C-95. EMTC, C-76. That's the building, if you're sentenced, doing a year or less. or you're transitioning from like for a parole hearing from upstate or something or probation

or you're about to get like released also and and then there's like the medical building also and so there's one female jail which is interesting in like nine men's jails probably has to do with testosterone or something i don't know the real reason i'm sure there's lots of reasons above my pay grade for that. And so then once I started as a therapist in the men's jails, it was terrifying because I'm walking down a hallway, right? And there's like 50 huge guys walking past me. They're not shackled. They're not handcuffed.

Anybody could do anything at any time. And I think part of the social work, like therapist training is to be able to have like a flat affect. on your face, because you don't want to look disgusted if a patient tells you something, right? You want to be able to keep your composure because that would not be therapeutic anyway. And so that helped a lot, like interacting and walking through situations that I found, like, scaring. So I was able to do that. I kept, like, breathing, you know, remembering to breathe.

Now make eye contact initially because I didn't know what to expect. And I think that really helped with just get calmer. And then over time, you get desensitized. Like, you can, you know, be walking past just like the most violent of offenders and be okay. And after a while, you see people enough. You develop a rapport with them. Even people in for murder. I probably had at least 100 patients that were there for murder.

And I'm sitting closer. Like, they're in a chair that. directly adjacent to where I'm sitting. And they could do anything at any time. There's no cameras in the rooms where we're doing therapy or in the medical, which is usually attached to like the therapy area. And there have been times where there were violence where inmates got upset through computers, started breaking walls like cubicles, you know, that is going to happen

to jail, fights. It's a nasty. violent place. But it could also be a good place to work. And I feel like graduate schools really don't emphasize that enough. I think the largest population of mental illness has to be the jails and prisons in this country. And they don't cover that at all in grad school. What did you know about Rikers going into it? Law and order. That was it. Like what I saw in the TV show. They have Rikers in the TV show? Yeah, that's where they go and interview like Stabler. and Benson from SVU.

They go to interview people at Rikers Island, some of it's filmed there. I think the building was JATC that they use for filming. And so that was the most glimpse I had inside of it. Did it match that glimpse? Just the layout.

What actually goes on there is much different. Yeah, it's hard to explain it to someone who's never really been there. And as a therapist, crazy because you could be watching the news. We had like TVs because there's a lot of downtime in different areas. And you'll see on the news every day, like so-and-so is running butt-naked, high on meth after stealing a car. And then two hours later, they're in for an assessment.

And so you're constantly saying things like and trying to determine the best course of like mental health treatment. Do they need to be in a mental health housing area? can they go in GP? Do they have a history of mental health? Are they currently suicidal? All these things that you have to really take into account. When you sit with those individuals like the murders you were describing earlier, the people you see on TV,

does it match the person that you see in the news? No, I think the news really make people out to be much, I mean, sensationalize everything, I think. And so you'll see characters of people on TV and doesn't actually match unless they have like a public persona and like you've seen them on TV and interviews and things. And even that's just like a small amount of who they actually are. Now is everyone mandated to see you or is it by request only? It could be by referral from a CEO who happens to notice someone in their housing area

that might be depressed or acting unusual, talking to themselves. self. Sometimes lawyers will put in requests. Sometimes it comes from the court. Like it's mandated that they have to have like a 730 exam to see if they're competent to stand trial. So we automatically have to see them. The ones after their sentenced or blow trial, we'll definitely see them for an assessment. Because at that point, it's a risk. You know, if you're looking at 5, 10, 15, 50 years, and you come back from trial. It's definitely a risk that you might want to hurt yourself after hearing that kind of news. And so we do a suicide assessment and determine whether we want to put them in suicide watch or not.

We take into account things like, are they looking forward to appeals? Is there a future? Do they have family support? Is there any financial support? Do they have kids? Are they going to try and see this through? Or do they just give up? And you can kind of get a sense after dealing with enough of them to know who needs, like,

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abgless.com or call 1-800 LilyRX or 1-800 545-979. Support, I think. Do you think suicide watch is abusive? I mean, we've heard stories of people getting thrown and just bear naked and they're just with, say, a chicken suit or, you know, a turtle suit is what they call it. Oh, yeah. And they could spend days there. Certainly that has happened.

So, yeah, there's definitely a part, I think, of every part of the system that could be abusive. But also there's different kinds of suicide watch. They could be in the housing area on the mental observation unit. And a suicide watch just means a one-to-one officer with them the whole time. And sometimes people actually feel safer that way, just because the sheer violence that occurs. And so that's normally the kind of suicide watch we put people on. If they're alone in a cell, then they would most likely have to wear one of those kind of suits. And that.

But I think it's like bullpen therapy, they call it. Sometimes they'll leave people in certain areas for days with a bench and like before they get housed. And that could be abused, especially if people are like a huge pain causing problems, throwing feces, throwing urine, whatever bodily fluid they can at different officers. Then that can be used that way, kind of teach a lesson. From a psychological standpoint, why do you think inmates do that? We've heard it from inmates themselves, but they don't really necessarily talk from a, you know, deep in their mind aspect of it. Why do you think from a professional standpoint? I think there's something broken in them.

and share boredom. I think they like getting a rise of people. And sometimes there's that psychopathy that they want to inflict pain on other people and were disgust or whatever it is. And so I think that's really, or they just need the attention. You know, they weren't hugged enough growing up and this is how they get attention. This is how they learned growing up, you know, behave badly. You get a certain amount of attention. And some people are just so mentally ill, they just, I don't know why, just spread feces all over your cell that you're in 24-7, especially if you're in solitary. There's got to be something off.

How do you feel about solitary? I think it's a necessary evil. I think without it, violence would just explode. Like, if there are no consequences, and we've seen that happen. But at the same time, I don't think I've seen the toughest of toughest of people scared shitless of it. and people will take a razor and cut up their arms, cut up everything to avoid going in there. And so we used to clear people for solitary.

Are they able to go? Are they mentally, it seems ironic almost, because we're making sure they're mentally healthy enough to put them in such a stressful situation. So if they're not mentally healthy enough, then we don't, but we're going to make them worse by putting them there. So it's like a conflict of interest. But at the end of the day, we're really trying to make sure no one kills themselves. Like, the most fundamental thing that we're doing at the jail as a therapist. And did you ever see the documentary on Kleefe Browder? No, but I know that I'm familiar with the story.

Yeah. And so, like, he was there at 16, spent two out of three years in solitary. And at that age, like the impact, it's just on your development. elemental psyche being alone for that many hours, that many days, that many weeks, that many months is torture. Like, you still need love, a parent. And then you saw the physical abuse he had indoor from his peers and the officers. And it's just, it's horrific.

It's a horrific story. Do you think more access to the outside world while you're in solitary can mitigate the impact it has on you, or do you think regardless there's still a big impact in your mind because of the physical constraints 24-7? Like, for example, when I was in solitary, you only got a phone call once a month and you could write letters and a visit maybe once a week. I think there are protective factors. I think that would help.

Like, if you're able to get on a video phone or a phone call, even once a day, like, that would definitely help certain people. You know, there's like, but when you're disconnected, like, once a month from people, it's your mind wanders. And it's scary for a lot of people. And some people I've seen actually like it. Like they'll kick up their feet, put their head back and be like, at least them away from the violence. Like I can just sit here too my time and kind of just get through it that way.

That wasn't the average person, though. What is the violence like there? What did you see from your perspective? So we were connected with medical. And so I've seen like therapists have been attacked, like unprovoked, teeth. knocked out, nose broken, jaws broken, eye socket's broken. And that was just therapists. And we're the least likely people to get hurt there. Like the officers get attacked, they get slashed. I've seen so many slashings. People punched in the nose, broken nose. Faces cut and slashings.

I didn't know this was a thing before I started working there, that there's a culture of trying to disfigure other people. And I thought that was like one of the most horrific things. every time you have to look in the mirror for that's your life you have to remind it reminds you of that one incident and I think that's like such an awful mean thing to do to someone

and I think it it takes a certain kind of person really to carry that out and it's big with the gangs and you see everyone there has certain kind of scars just like all over their face and

and the sloth lashings just like, you know, when they're cut and just trying to hold it and then bandage them. And they get sent out to the hospitals, get stitched up. And it's, you still get the keloid scars. And it's just, it's not a pretty sight. Yeah, I interview you guys and they talk about it normal. Like, it's over dinner having a conversation about your day. They're talking about slashings and razor tag and how there's difference between, you know,

cutting someone and slashing someone. And they just talk about it so casually. it just it's like it turns you into an animal almost in there right and and even us we get desensitized like seeing those kind of things and so we also see them on referrals after they're assaulted because that's a traumatic thing and then we're sending them right back into the fire like how much positive therapy can you do when you're saying them right back to hell like and so half the time we're doing good work and then the other half the time we're trying not to get manipulated because inmates are constantly fearful for their lives in their housing areas and we'll use

mental health to get sent to mental observation where it's a little safer and so a lot of times and sometimes they will like do that purposely and like feign symptoms and malinger for that secondary gain to try to get to that and that. sometimes take advantage of the sicker inmates who are there. And so it's constantly figuring out who's telling the truth, looking at their history. Is this something they do often? Or are they really sick? Or is it both? Are they really sick? They need the help. But they're also going to try to friendly extort other inmates while there. These guys that commit the violence and that act very macho and, you know, that they're the big guy on campus. When they sit there and talk

with you or another therapist, do you get to see a different side to them? Yeah, definitely. They will talk about missing their kids, you know, losing family members. I speak to them at their most vulnerable moments also. So they're not just like this high-ranking Latin King or blood all the time, the human person also that I'm speaking to and can be vulnerable. And you try to offer the support the best you can. even if they're going to go out and just cut someone up and like um and then they end up being your patient you know a little while later um yeah it's um and a lot of a lot of crazy thing happens in

jail like you can get locked up and like i had one patient i saw for about two years told me he's innocent of course a lot of people say that like they didn't do anything i actually believed to him i could like there was something there and he's like look i was it wasn't my car i was driving. I didn't know there was a gun in the car. These officers have been harassing me for years. He did have a prior. So they're offering him like 17 years or something like for the gun charge. And the DNA comes back and it was like 98% that it was not African American DNA and he was African American. And they still decided to go to trial with it and he ended up beating the trial. But like he got beat up while he was in jail. He couldn't be there for his daughter watching her grow up.

you're almost kidnapped during that time because you can't bail out. You can't get out. You know, if you have a hold like parole or probation until your case is resolved. You know, you're separated from your wife who is struggling financially. So it's just like trauma on top of trauma and, you know, the kids go through it and it affects the whole community. And I was happy for him that he was able to get out. But most of the time, people will cop out just because it's such a rig game. Would guys come see you voluntarily or was that seen as a formal weakness? No, people will sign up voluntarily. Also, if you're on psych meds, you have to see us.

So it's part of it. See the psychiatrist once a month, maybe on antidepressants or anti-psych meds or anti-anxiety meds. One of the biggest problems is sleep that people come there for. And I get it because you can be in for trespassing and you're sleeping next to someone there for murder. And it happens. Like I remember when someone was in his first night, I had an argument over a piece of chicken on the line. And that night someone took something in a sock and hit him in the mouth while he was sleeping,

knocked out the front two teeth. Like, I would not be able to sleep again after that. I mean, that was such a horrific thing. And then just even seeing that afterwards, I felt horrible. And the judge let him out, like to get that taken care of, like, They had some heart in that situation. I forgot where I was going on with that one. Do you find that the correctional staff are supportive of mental health and even the higher

ups there? Or do you find that it's kind of pushed to the side? And it's just there as a mandatory type thing? I think it's a mixed bag. I think certain people think it, like certain people are so sick, like the schizophrenia, the shouting at themselves. Some people have traumatic brain. injuries and this one guy had TBI and schizophrenia and was taking the shit out of the toilet

that he would produce and eating it. Like that's a whole other level of mental illness. And like there they really need to get that address. Like no one's not no. I'm sure some people would look the other way, but that kind of thing. And they do use us. Like when there are issues with certain people, they will write referrals because we could be useful to them to help it calm down person and get them just to go along with the routine there. Are you guys the ones making the decisions if they're fit to stand trial or is that outside of Rikers? Yeah, outside.

That would be outside of Rikers. They have to go to like Bellevue or like Mid-Hudson Correctional and like forensic unit or they'll have like a private person. Do that depending on how much financial support is. you know, backing the inmate. Did you find yourself in danger there a lot? I was spit in my face one time. And then the inmate clocked him,

so he had like a softball size knot on his head. And then I noticed he was a sex offender, so that obviously brosed me out. I, like, immediately, like, went to see, like, who is this person? And there were scary situations, but I was never like the, you know, person at the end. But they also say, you know, if you weren't attacked or you probably haven't worked there long enough.

Because that definitely happened to people. And your line of work, how hard is it to keep personal feelings out of it? Like you're sitting, say, with a sex offender or someone that committed murder, you might have your own opinion in your mind, but you have to maintain professionalism. Yeah. I think with any kind of line of work, you have to bring that professionalism. Even dealing with, like if you're working at a corporate company, like with HR and someone comes to you with a complaint and you just think it's the biggest piece of bullshit ever, like you still have to like go through the motions. And so I still have to go through the motions. And even if I have a lot of disdain for someone who's a sex offender or I find them disgusting, like I really do try to compartmentalize that just to get my job done.

And, you know, just because they did this horrific thing doesn't mean they shouldn't be getting support, you know, of the stress they're going through while they're there, just like everyone else would. Like, it is hard, though, because sometimes you just want to be like, yeah. What was the biggest difference you saw between female offenders and male offenders psychologically? Definitely more aggressive crimes committed by men.

Female crimes, a lot more having to do with, like, financial kind of things, drug-related things, prostitution, like assault, violence, robbery, drug dealing, shootings. I think it was more along with men. Although there were plenty of women that were there for armed robberies and things like that. They would disguise themselves in, like, key jobs

and just rob stores and things of that. nature. So they're both elements and both. But Riker specifically, like if you're held there at bail, normally you're there for something pretty heavy, although not necessarily because I guess trespass. I guess you have enough priors you'll be there for anything. How long would it take you to disarm someone to actually get through to them and talk to someone? How many times do they have to see you? I ended up seeing someone for like six years straight while he was finding his case. I think he had a double murder charge. And he told me after a while, he's like, I didn't trust you in the beginning.

You know, it really took like, I don't know, several months or whatever it was to, before I knew I could open up to you and see that like I could trust you. Some people will open up right away. They don't really have that social, like that guard in place. They'll just talk. And other people definitely takes longer. But at Rikers with mental health, you could see someone 10 times, two times, never see him again because they got transferred to another building for whatever reason.

So there's really not that continuity of care. They would get like a different therapist assigned when they're there. And do you think that's a negative thing? As far as mental health care, but I think there's safety or whatever the reason they're being transferred trumps that. Because it's a correction that we're just like a piece of the whole puzzle. Do you ever have people reach out to you? Say like the guy that you saw for six years, does he ever written to you? Yeah, he found me on Facebook before.

Yeah, yeah, he connected. Like, I'm out, you know. I only had to do like another, you know, a certain amount of time upstate before he got released. And that was one of the more interesting stories. He's like, we should write a book together once about, you know, Rikers. He had done time in jail for murder before and got out.

And then this was his second charge for murder or manslaughter. I don't know what it was, but like we were going to call it like Fear and Loathing in Rikers Island. Like something similar. That's probably trademarked, but just to like talk about the crap that went on. I know he was a big gambler in there. And we had like booze brought in and played cards and made it as home as possible. What did your family think about your job there? I think they thought I was a little nuts.

Did you think you were a little nuts? Yeah. Yeah, I was like of the mindset, like, I think once I first got used to working at Rosie's, I was like, this is kind of cool because there's also benefits to working there. There's sometimes there's alarms, I guess, slashing or stabbing. So that means there's no movement in the building. So if I'm working at double that day, that's 16 hours, I'm just hanging out with my colleagues, like other therapists, correction officers. At night, we'd watch scandal.

Like, we would watch different shows together, get to know each other really well. End up coming to each other's weddings, like vacations with each other. Like, that's the aspect of it that I liked a lot. Like, you're spending so many hours, so much time with people. You get friendly with people that you never thought you'd cross paths with. wishing you could be there live for the big game, soaking up the atmosphere in the crowd. But too often, life gets busy, or the price holds you back.

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Get started at Redfin.com. Own the dream. and make good friendships that way. Now, is that mandated over time, or is that volunteered? Volunteered. I know, like, correctional officers. For us mandated. Okay.

And could you pick up shifts covering for correctional officers or no? No, just for other mental health clinicians. So we could do, we could trade, like our shifts are 8 to 4, 4 to 12. If I wanted someone to cover my 4 to 12, and then I'll cover their 8 to 4 the next day. So we could swap, or I could just pick up if they're, people calling out shifts. And so for a social worker who were generally very poor, we don't get paid well at all, it was like the first instance, like you have a shot at making some decent money.

What about the weekends? Do you work the weekends and do you have to work? I would fill in on the weekends. They always have somebody work in the weekends. Okay. So there's always someone, even on holidays, there's always someone on clock? Yeah. Yeah.

Psychiatrist and therapist. Is it on call at all or it's only when you're on shift? We'll have people on call. Sometimes they'll be stationed in one building. and if needed to be sent to another building for like an emergency referral or something, then we'll go to that building and see the person and then come back to like the original building if you're short-staffed. When there was the hurricane, we slept there overnight.

We had cots. Like they needed people there the next day and the next day, which is gross because we had a huge mouse problem like in our offices. Like one night we caught like 16 mice. It was disgusting. And they were those sticky people. pads, so we heard on the next day, like, still squeaking in the garbage can. It just wasn't handled very hygienically.

Yeah. How would you describe the sanitation aspects of Rikers and that nature? Certain inmates, like, you get jobs when you work there and are really good at cleaning, take their jobs seriously. You know, correction officers tend to, like, favor them and like them. And they'll do like an amazing job. But overall, it's absolutely fucking filthy and disgusting. Cockroaches, waterbugs dead along the halls.

And so I remember going to a female solitary to check on an inmate. She was on her bed. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like she was like dancing almost. And she's like, look at the floor. I looked down and it looked like someone dropped a container of chocolate sprinkles. There's just ants everywhere. And I was like, that is fucking disgusting.

Like, I brought it up to the crash officer's attention. They're like, yeah, we got someone to come and I take care of it, but we can't just let her out as solitary. Like, what, like, this is, you know, it's like, what an ethical dilemma. Like, yeah, here she's on her bed and, like, freaking out. I would freak out. I'd freak, freak, fuck. Yeah, it was gross. Now, how much of the information inmate share with you is private just between you and them

and how much gets shared to anyone, like, I guess, the attorneys or, you? prison staff or the courts? Attorneys can subpoena mental health records if they want to. Otherwise, it's confidential. The courts don't see anything that we write unless it's subpoenaed. But also we do like defensive charting.

We don't put things in notes that will necessarily open someone up to something bad happening. So we keep it like as with enough information to get the point across without like divulging everything. But then people will open up to us because we're as confidential about other murders they committed or got away with and talk about things that have happened 10 years earlier that they did

or involvement in gangs. And they talk openly about these things and knowing that like there's no repercussion. Like they're allowed to share. And the first time I've like heard these things is like this is a different kind of job. I'm not used to this. Oh, you don't. So say someone to confesses a murder, you don't have to report that. I can't report that.

No. It's illegal. Is it different for a lawyer? Like if a lawyer has reported a crime? Like if someone reports it to a lawyer? If, say, a client confesses murder to a lawyer. I think it's similar. It's like the similar kind of thing.

It's like if you tell a priest or something, like they can't. So how did that work with the case with the brothers in California in the document? You know, the brothers that killed their parents. I can't think of them. Menendez brothers. Yeah, the Menendez brothers. Didn't they're therapists or the psychologist turn them in with the tapes? I don't remember.

Oh, okay. But yeah, so you can't disclose anything. Right. I know, like, they had this sexual abuse allegations that I think the therapist shared in the first trial. Maybe the defense wanted that brought out. I would imagine they would for sympathy. and that was deadlocked.

And the second trial, that wasn't allowed in. So I think that's also contributed to them losing that case because there was no, that whole other picture of what was happening wasn't allowed in it. Now, are you allowed to confer what the people said to your colleagues and say supervisors? Yeah. So it just can't leave anyone that's not a licensed therapist. Right, under that employee. Okay.

Yeah. Yeah, so we'll know, yeah, we'll have discussions each week about what's going on in each other's caseload and things like that. How can we best help support each other and, you know, what to do in certain circumstances and be there for each other. I also had a colleague that, like, HR doesn't work the way it would work in, like, a company outside. Like, I had my, like, someone sexually harassing one of my coworkers, and she reported it, and the next day, all her tires are slats. like in the parking lot at Rikers, right? Cameras everywhere. She went to like investigation.

Like they're like, no, you got to go to the Bronx, like, attorney's office. They say it's on Rikers to look into. It doesn't get anywhere. She never parked there again. I was giving her rides over the bridge every day after that, like the next few years. Like it's people, some of the officers are from the same projects and, you know, as some of the criminals. It's just the mentality, I think. When these individuals are sharing with you their secrets or confessions or, say, even confessing a murder to you, how do you go home after that and just process that and live a separate life?

I'm sure it's got to be on your mind, you know, thinking about it. You're at the dinner table and you were told about this guy that killed someone earlier in the day. Nothing surprises me anymore. Like, I think anybody is capable of anything, even more so if they're under the influence of drugs and alcohol. because it makes them that much more like impulsive and erratic. But definitely people, I think, and it's just also just remembering that. So I take that, I'm like, yeah, I could definitely see that. This person doing that exactly what they're saying or like throwing this person off a building,

like who attacked their younger sister or whatever it was. And so go home. And definitely it was alarming for the first few years. And then you do get desensitized and you just take it with shred. And eventually it's like, I get it. We're all human. But in the beginning, it was, it was, I think every day was a shock. And that was like there was an adrenaline rush to it also.

Like just being working in that kind of environment. It's like you're on high alert. Officers are very hypervigilant all the time. I actually think their lifespan after they retire is like five years just because the stress in their body is like on 24. when they're working there for so many years that it just does a number on them. When you were working there, did you see it as a long-term career or was there always a part in your mind where this was just another stepping stone in your career?

I was content there. I was making enough money. I liked the people I worked with. It was good for a long time. After I got married, I switched to a day shift so I could spend more time with my wife. And so that entailed me going to a different building, working with different people, different supervisors. And I just did not like that environment. So after a while, I started looking.

But if I was back in the building where I was with the same people, I probably went to stay there longer. Was there high turnover there? Because it seemed like you had a pretty good stretch. I've talked to multiple staff members that leave after anywhere from six months to the first couple of years. Yeah, no, people have been there like 30, 40 years, 20 years. There's a lot of people there at long time. Even in your department? Yeah, yeah.

And then sometimes people retire from other jobs and then work there as like a second pension or something. And then a lot of people would work there part-time after their full-time job. Say they worked at a hospital, like County Hospital. Nine to five, they'd come and work the night shift two days a week for just extra income. So a lot of people are there for many, many years. What do you think it takes to work in a job like that? I said to an inmate once, I was like, I would never ever survive being here. And he said, you absolutely would.

And this was the one that was there for murder that had seen for many years. And I was like, why do you think that? He's like, one, you're smart and two, it's the way you carry yourself. Like, you learn what to say, what not to say, like, what to do. You're not going to put yourself in a situation. you just have more common sense than that, I think. I still don't believe that. I still would be scared.

Like, very scary place. And also knowing, like, even the toughest people, you put them in a different housing area, they're not tough anymore. Six people who jump on them, they're not tough. Like, they're, everyone's trying to escape that. So no matter how tough you are, it doesn't matter. I've seen the toughest people get very scared, you know,

when tables are turned. Yeah. How often are you thinking about if you were ever in those shoes of an inmate, if you were ever there? Probably a lot. I'd probably be thinking, like, if I was facing this amount of time, and all of a sudden, after working there long enough, when people say, oh, I only got five years. To me, I'm like, only five years. So that ends up being a small amount of time when you're talking to people who are sentenced

for like 15, 20, 25, 30 years. When there's more and more people of that, I was like five years. So that's a long time. Five years to me was. in eternity. I was like, that was like more than the years, like, college plus another year. That would be insane. So I would definitely think about those things. Even like a year. Sometimes I would think at night, I'd be like, I this person is still in jail that I saw as two years later. And they have 23 years left right now. I'm just like, that's horrible.

How often do you think about it now to this day? You know, it's been years since you left. Do you have nightmares about it? Do you have dreams? Do you think about it? I do think about it. Occasionally, I wonder where some of them are now, like some of them that were sentenced to life or 25 to life. And I'm just wondering, like, to myself, I think a lot of times people who get sentenced young, like, they really didn't have a chance to mature and grow up and they're kind of like living their environment. And so I think at a certain point in jail, they're going to grow up and realize, like, what have a mistake they made and like wish they could go back and change things and just like been the best person that they could have been. And a lot of times when people are that young, or just even later in

life and don't grow up, never get to that point. There's like a sadness to it. Like a wasted life kind of like because I feel like most people would want to do the right thing and like live a good life and just get caught up in things and gets over their head before they know what to do and just end up in the wrong place, wrong time, doing the wrong things, not necessarily bad people. Would there be a lot of people you encountered that you didn't think deserve to be in there? Or maybe even being held in their while awaiting trial? Yeah. Yeah.

Like the one person I thought that was like offered 15 years. or a gun charge to take that deal. Like, that was their deal. Or go to trap. Or maybe it was a seven-year offer and 15 if you boot track. I don't know what it was, but... Something like that. But I was like, he doesn't deserve to be here.

Like, you're basically kidnapped because you can't get out of jail. And it's a false... You're being held under false pretenses. So, like, you're essentially kidnapped by the government. Like, you can't get out. That felt like the same thing with Clef Browder. Like, there's no way... There's no battle for him to make because even though his family couldn't make it anyway

because they're from the poorest part of the Bronx. But you're essentially kidnapped by the government. You can't get out of jail because you have this hold, this other hold, whether it was immigration or parole or probation. That doesn't matter. You're just stuck until it plays itself out. What's something that all of these inmates that you've talked to have in common? Good question.

I guess. I mean, the most basic thing they have in common, trauma, you know, most of them, and if they weren't traumatized before, they're leaving there traumatized, whether it's seeing violence, being the victim of violence, also living in fear. Like, I feel like that feeling, like, if there's a bully waiting for you after school and you know you're going to have to, like, encounter them, you have that fear in the pit of your stomach, this is what these people live with day in and day out, most of them. And it's just, that's why you can't sleep.

Everyone's trying to get sleeping meds. And also just the weight of having to go to trial, going back and forth to trial, and all the little things that accompany that, trying to survive in jail while the stress of going to trial, while trying to battle your own demons with your own mental illness, your own bipolar disorder, your own depression and anxiety. It's very hard to. People are full of surprises, especially when you travel together. Thankfully, Verbo is not.

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You survive that, so I guess struggle would be a better answer. I've learned that a lot of people will stand, say, a lower paying job because they've found purpose on that job or they enjoy the helping people. So with that being said, was it hard for you to leave the job knowing that, you know, you had purpose and you were making an impact on individuals there? I guess there was kind of a grief to it because I enjoyed it for so long that I liked going and I liked being there and I liked a lot of aspects of the job. I knew I could still help people in other ways. So I knew I had that looking ahead. After Rikers, I started working for different corporations on site.

And so, like, the first company was a Fortune 500 financial technology company that lost about six people during COVID the first month. So they brought someone in on site to help with morale and all these different things. And so I found purpose that way pretty quick. But I definitely missed the camaraderie of working there. You know, a lot of therapist jobs, it's very, I see. isolating, especially like if you're in private practice or you have an office by yourself, you're seeing people individually.

It's not a lot of other interaction. And also, people also like even working in corporations, it's different problems. Same emotional pain. Like people, just because the threshold and circumstances are rikers are different doesn't mean people aren't suffering where they are and going through different things. like losing coworkers he worked with for 30 years was very hard for a lot of people. And in companies, there's crazy stuff that happens too. At an office party, one of my patients was raped by someone she was working with, right?

And how, like, I can't go to HR. I don't go to the police. That's not my job. It's just the best support her however best I can. And she's driven and she doesn't want anything to affect like, you know, promotions or, anything at work. And so these situations occur even outside of Rikers and really trying to help people, you know, find their peace and move forward with life. It's rewarding, satisfying, I think, as long as you're in a good enough work environment. So in a case like that, do you think it was

helpful that you've sat down with people that have actually committed that crime? And then now you're sitting down with the victim aspect of it. You kind of see both sides to it. Yeah. There's also plenty of victims in the women's jail to go through that too, who discussed it openly. And then also dealing with the perpetrator. I don't know if that would have, I probably could have done, not had that aspect and still been helpful to her, I think, not knowing about the perpetrator side of it. Like, she doesn't need to hear or probably want to know anything about what they're going through or their mindset or anything like that.

Do you ever look back on any of your cases at Rikers and wish you handled it differently? Yeah, definitely my hindsight is 2020 and sometimes I would say something and been like I shouldn't have said that. Just like in any conversation I feel like definitely when you're younger there's more of an urgency of oh no I said the wrong thing my life's over like even at parties or something like that as you get older, he gets less and less but I definitely had moments like that in therapy and I was like I should not have said that. I think it also makes me a better therapist being able to own that and being vulnerable

that I'm human, make mistakes also. How long were you in the corporate world until you decide to go out on your own? 2018 to 2025. So fairly recently. Yeah, yeah. What made you decide to take that leap? I think my brother, shout out to Evan,

he said you're dealing with sociopaths. You might as well make more money dealing with sociopaths in corporate America. I thought that was hilarious, and there was some truth to it. He said, if you can navigate that, I'm sure you'd be okay working in this kind of field, making a little more money. And at that point, I had a family also to think about.

So I was like, I need to get out of this kind of environment and try to make some moves. So that's what I did. What do you think is the biggest lesson you learned about the criminal justice system with your career there? Just the corruption, the bias, everything is insurmountable. Like, I know there's efforts at reform. and but like and I've spoken to prosecutors they're like oh yeah we we're not forthcoming with information like if it's going to help your case if it's going to help us lose like people how how much cause with them and they're being prosecuted yeah they're very open about that and I'm

like that's part of why the world is what it is like everyone's looking out for them not everyone's looking out for themselves but plenty of people are which causes enough uh institutional problems you know, at every level in the community. If there's one thing you could change on Rikers Island, what do you think that would be? If there's a way to lock people up and be there safely without having to worry about violence, I think that would be the one thing I would change.

I don't want, I don't want, you know, my worst enemy to be there. It's so frightening and scary and terrifying. Not 24-7, but enough that, people lose weight because you're constantly on edge, you're constantly being harassed. Like, if you're in a gang house, you're not getting food, like, they'll give all the chicken and protein to, like, gang members before they even get scraps. You can't sleep.

And once you're not sleeping, like, the anxiety level is just, like, you know, 30 times what it would be. And you're just miserable. And there's also nothing to do there. It's not like in state, once you get, everyone says once you get to, once you get to state jail. There's better food. You have so much more to do. It goes by fast because you're busy. At Rikers, you're just languishing. There's nothing to do. You have one TV in a TV room if it works. You have a bed. You can play cards if you managed to get a card set. They have a law library

sometimes. And half the time you're in lockdown. You can't move anywhere. And if you're in cells, you lose your mind quickly. From a psychological standpoint, do you think they'd do that on purpose to get an individual to plead out faster. Yeah, absolutely. And people do that. They'll plead out just to get out of there, to go upstate, do their time, and go home, or just plead out and go home

because they can't take it there. There's definitely an advantage. If you're home fighting your case, you don't care how long you're home for, you want to win the case. If you're at Rikers fighting your case, you want to get the hell out of there as soon as possible.

So everyone's doing everything possible to get out of there. It's a lot of changes that need to be made to the criminal justice system. Yeah, it's a big, big thing. I don't know how to have jails without violence. Like, I've thought about, like, even if you start from the ground up and change everything,

I think maybe certain countries can do it, but I think it's still there. I mean, I think in the U.S., it definitely depends on the type of offender because, say, you're at a camp with white-collar individuals, there's no fights, you know? There's never any fights because no one wants to leave. The privileges are so good. You don't want to risk doing that. Got it. So maybe that's what it has to do with.

But definitely. Also, are you going to stick, say, a convicted rapist or a murderer in a facility like a camp where they can live like a king? I think that kind of defeats the purpose too. I think there's no balance. Yeah. In the criminal justice system, it's either here. Yeah, or it's all the way on the bottom. So it's a very unfair system.

And like everything else in life, I guess it's trying to do the best you can do with what you have. which is very difficult, especially given all the constraints and capitalism, like money being a motivation. The prosecutors, the lawyers, it's just, there's so many levels and layers to it. Like, you need PhD and criminal justice to even understand it. I don't know. It's way above my head. Absolutely. Well, Matt, I appreciate you coming on on the show today.

It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much, Ian. See, not as bad as you expected. Nothing to be nervous about. Yeah. And I appreciate that. Yeah, I was definitely driving here, feeling a little anxious. And just being able to admit that to myself kind of takes a little anxious off.

Like, it's okay to fail miserably. At least I'm trying. No, you did great. And you're the professional. You know, I should be more intimidated by you. Well, thank you for the kind words. Yeah, of course.