Locked In with Ian Bick - Ian Bick Interviews Warden Inside Correctional facility | William Cope

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

Former Inmate Ian Bick sits down with William Cope, the Superintendent of a major correctional facility. Gain an unprecedented look at the challenges and responsibilities of running a prison, from maintaining security and order to addressing the needs and rehabilitation of inmates. Superintendent Cope shares his personal experiences, the tough decisions he faces daily, and his insights on the prison system's impact on both inmates and staff. This episode offers a unique and eye-opening perspective on life inside a correctional facility, as seen through the eyes of its warden. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Introduction to the Correctional Facility 00:03:32 - The Power of Rehabilitation in Prison 00:07:05 - Communication in Prison 00:10:29 - The Impact of Childhood on Behavior 00:14:15 - Growing up in a Rural Area 00:17:57 - From Police Administration to Offender Programming 00:21:41 - From Burnout to Making a Difference 00:25:33 - Placement and Success Strategy 00:29:13 - Providing Work Opportunities for Offenders 00:32:44 - Learning Soft Skills and Responsibility in Incarceration 00:36:15 - Focus on Rehabilitation and Skills 00:39:53 - Reintegration into the Community 00:43:33 - Success Stories and Challenging Misconceptions 00:47:20 - The Impact of Kindness on Individuals 00:50:56 - Providing an Opportunity for Success 00:54:18 - Building Trust and Having Open Conversations 00:57:47 - Job Search and Social Media Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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See full terms at MintMobile.com. You're going to have to keep up those normal life, you know, schedules while you're incarcerated. They have a time to get up every morning and it's prior to 5 o'clock. Everybody gets up here at about 4.40 in the morning. 9.40 at night is, you know, lights out. So it's very structured. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Lockton with the NBIC podcast. This is a very special episode.

I got to sit down with the warden, also known as the superintendent of a correctional facility. It's a work correctional facility in Tennessee when I was in Nashville speaking at the National Association for Reentry Professionals' annual conference last month. He invited me in to give a tour of his facility. I got to speak in front of the inmates. I did a YouTube live if you want to see that full speech. I think it was a couple lives ago on YouTube where you can watch that full speech that I gave to the inmates. We're going to be going back there again soon to do more interviews with him and speak to the inmates even further. I had a great conversation with William Cope, and he is just an all-around humble, respectful, great man who's really going to help

change the criminal justice system for the better. I want to give a huge appreciation to not only William Cope, but his staff for letting me and my team into the facility. And also the glizzies, he did provide us. Shout out to William. He's going to appreciate that comment about the glizzies. Now without further ado, sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with William Cope. Superintendent Cope, welcome to Locked in. It's an absolute honor and pleasure to have you here today. We just got a whole tour of the facility we're in, and I think it would be great if you explain the audience where exactly we're sitting right now. We are in the boardroom of the Rutherford County Correctional Work Center. We are a county.

correctional facility in Murphy's Burrell, Tennessee, our really our mission, if he boiled it down to really the base of our mission, it's restorative programming and restorative measures to ensure that our offenders leave our facility better than they came in. And what I thought was great was that you actually reached out to us and invited us in. and just the hospitality has been amazing. I did. And we're also very proud of this facility.

I'm proud of all of our staff. I really truly believe that we've got the best reentry team and the best security staff in the United States. I truly believe that. People come from all over to tour this facility. And when I saw what you were doing, and especially that you were going to be in the area in Middle Tennessee, I wanted to reach out and have you come by.

I thought this would be a great opportunity for Ian to see that there are, you know, really progressive other sides to, you know, what your story was. Yeah, and it's a cleanest. So you admit that. I'll give it to you. There was a couple discrepancies along the tour, but it wasn't your fault under construction. I did not see your white glove come out. So I will just go ahead and deny that.

No, I was very impressed. Thank you. This experience was not. nothing like what I faced when I was incarcerated and being able to speak in such a passionate and lively group, you could see that, I mean, me and you had the conversation earlier that you don't force anyone to program, you don't force anyone to show up, they come voluntarily, and you could see the effect it has on individuals like that. And if I had that experience, I think my life would have been a lot differently in prison. It still turned out well,

but that's not the case for everyone that's incarcerated in America. Well, the fact that you did not have that experience, you know, if you had, you probably wouldn't be sitting here right now doing what you're doing. So even though it was a negative, it turned out to be a positive. Absolutely. Now, before we jump into your story, I'm very curious because you've been in the correctional system

for your entire career. I have. this whole world of influencers and coming into a prison to do a podcast is very much new. What do you think about all this? We are open for anything. I think when you, and it kind of goes back to my early days and working in corrections when the public had no view of the inside. And I always questioned that.

I always thought, if you, if you, if you, don't have anything that needs to be hidden, why are you hiding it? So we're very open. We love to have people come out, tour the facility. A lady reached out to me, as a matter of fact, just a little while ago and asked, because she was at the conference and she said she was going to be in town for a couple more days and ask if she could come tomorrow. I was like, yeah, of course. We don't have to get the facility ready. You can come at 3 o'clock in the morning. Just call, you know, that. He'll set you up with it. You know, it's not a place where we have to prepare for you to be able to come out.

I want that type of culture with my staff, with our residents, to where people can come in and see what they're doing, see the progress that they're making, and see that we're changing lives. There are way too many facilities in the United States that are the opposite of that. and we're very proud of what we do here and we want more people to see it because every time that we can maybe touch your life

and change your view of the way that you see the correctional system, you're going to tell somebody else and that person's going to tell five other people and that person's going to tell, you know, those people are going to tell 100 other people. So being able to reach out, have people come in and look at the way this facility is run, and the restoration that we're putting in place changes lives.

And I'm proud of that. And all of our staff is proud of it. And so this is a normal thing for us is to have someone come in, not do a podcast, obviously, but it's a normal thing for us to have someone come in and tour the facility and ask questions. I want questions. I want as many people to come in and walk through this facility and tell me, you know, this is a little odd.

Why are you doing this? Because I can explain it. And if they can explain a better way, I'll go with that way. And, you know, there's not all this red tape. I mean, you messaged me on Instagram and an email. That's right. And in general, like, if I were to reach out to you, I'm able to call you and your secretary will put me right through to you. And what other world and what other prison do you have that ability?

I mean, federal prison, you can't get in touch with the warden or the superintendent or anyone. When they have people come, news media, I don't know if you saw it. There was an interesting 60-minute interview that they did on the federal prison, a woman's prison. And somehow this got played, but they asked one of the females, does this interview, does this what were being shown accurately depict what the prison's like? and the woman, the inmate said no, and that they'll retaliate against us for saying no, but our voices need to be heard.

And I bet you if you asked the question to any of the inmates here today, they would say an entirely different thing. Yeah. As a matter of fact, if you'll remember, when I first contacted you and asked you if you wanted to come out to tour, I said, you know, and hey, I've got a whole bunch of folks who you could interview.

It wasn't about me. As a matter of fact, this, like I said, this is going to be your most boring interviews you've ever given. But, yeah, you can speak to any one of those residents back there, and they'll tell you the same thing. Is it, you know, all rainbows and puppy dogs? No, you know, they're incarcerated. But our job is not to make that harder. Our job is to improve their lives.

So will they walk out of here better citizens, not, you know, better criminals. Yeah. So, I mean, to be able to break down those barriers and those walls that keep the public out and from seeing what goes on behind, you know, closed doors, I mean, I don't see that as a negative. I see that as only a positive in getting better over time. And something that really stuck that you had said in our talks over the last couple of days was you don't necessarily like the word rehabilitation. There's another word that you used.

I don't like rehabilitation, and I don't. There's another R word, recidivism. Recidivism is a negative word when you really think about it. Think about what recidivism is. That's failure rate, correct? That's when someone comes back. When they recidivate, they come back to jail. Let's stop focusing on rehabilitation, because rehabilitation,

rehabilitation, you're not going to rehabilitate someone, okay? That's a worn out word. Recidivism is another word that a lot of time in corrections we focus on. But there's another R word in it's restoration. Restoring people back to what they should be. That's what our focus needs to be on in this line of work. In law enforcement, in corrections, in probation and parole. role. We need to work to restore people back to what their life could have been before any of the

failures or the traumas or any of the setbacks. Take them back to that place where, you know, they had a chance and restore them to that. That's the real key. That's the good artwork. And something else you said that hit me was people aren't born evil. They aren't born bad. something triggers them along the way that causes them to turn into that. And that's a big key component to our show because we always start in an individual's childhood. In your field, what have you seen that kind of backs up that statement on that? Well, a lot of study in neurocriminalogy, a lot of study in adverse childhood experiences, and a lot of people study have told me over the years,

And I've met, I mean, you figure 30 years and working in jails and prisons, thousands of people. Everybody from, like I told you at one point, someone who's written a bad check all the way up to the worst, you know, murderer that you can meet. I've known those people. And I can truly tell you that I've never met someone that I believe was born bad. Now, yes, they've made bad decisions throughout the year. but I don't think they were born bad. Something happened throughout their life, typically, usually their youth,

that changed their direction. And a lot of those things, we talk about ACEs, we talk about adverse childhood experiences. When you learn that a lot of the things that we all go through when we're children shape how we turn out as an adult, it really helps you to understand why some people commit the certain crimes that they do. Some people make the bad decisions that they do.

And when you understand that, you can really understand people. And like I said, we're in the people business. Corrections, I mean, it's right there in the name. A lot of times we will, especially young officers, go through correctional training, and they hear about care, custody, and control. We really focus on that custody and control part, but we forget about that care part. And you can really tell the facility's culture

on how much they care about those in their care. And I think if more places, and there are a lot. I mean, I'm definitely not a unicorn here at this facility. There are a lot of people that are doing really, really great things in corrections, but we need it across the board. Now, in your role, how often do you actually get to dive into someone's childhood and kind of see? Like, are you curious as an individual in your position? What caused the person to end up in your facility?

Not as much as I used to. When I was working, you know, my job a lot is administrative now as opposed to really getting, in and having long conversations with offenders. But I used to love to, you know, sit down with a guy for, you know, 10 minutes, 15 minutes at a time and just learn, learn how he was. I'd work segregation units where people were locked down 23 hours a day. They were out long enough to, you know, shower, go on recreation. But I'd sit in front of their sales sometimes and talk to him for, you know, 10 minutes,

15 minutes at a time just to get to know them. And I found that once you do that, you make a connection, you bridge that gap, and I made work a lot easier for me. And I also saw the opposite of that, and I saw that people that did not try to do that, did not try to communicate well with the offenders and the residents of the facility. I saw that come back to really haunt them and really bite them, especially in segregation units. Yeah. And you have that soothing voice, too. I would love to talk to you if I was in solitary for hours on end.

Oh my gosh. My kids would not say the same thing. You don't think so? You don't think you got it. And, you know, this morning, you know, I ask Matt if he's going to need a translator, you know, being down in the south here. You know, so if I sound like foghorn, leghorn, I apologize. Yeah, we put our film crew, Matt, through the ringer today.

Oh, it was great. It was great. We put them in solitary in the segregated housing unit. That's right. We put him in a restraint chair. But you had no spitbags. Well, we did. We just didn't have it available at the time.

We'll go back and revisit that again. Yeah, we'll have to bring a bag. No, we can do it. Yeah, we can do it right after this. You're ready, aren't you Matt? You look like a spitter, so that's what I'm saying. And he still has to get pepper sprayed. Yeah, yeah.

We need to do that. So did you grow up in Tennessee? I did grow up in Tennessee. I grew up in the most rural area that you could ever imagine. I grew up in a place where we had, and again, it goes back to early childhood experiences, good or bad. I grew up in an area where my wife makes fun of me because I say that it was a grammar school.

Now they call it elementary, but there were only seven people in my eighth grade class. I mean, it was like Little House on the Prairie. But I still have those same friends after all these years. I still, you know, keeping in contact with them. I grew up in a very, like I said, a very rural area. We didn't have, you know, we didn't have anything. My parents, they were good, you know, good, loving parents. And they did the best for, you know, there were three boys, me and my two brothers.

And they, you know, they did the best that they could. Was your family in corrections at all? No, no. No, no. My brothers and I were, I mean, we had great uncles who were in law enforcement, but my brothers and I all went into this type of work. My older brother went into the military, and he became a military policeman and retired from the military after 30 years. My younger brother went and worked in corrections also. for I think right around 20 years or so. So, yeah, the siblings have all kind of done the same thing.

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Did you guys like all talk about it? Was there something about it for you that stuck out at a young age? No, honestly, I think it had a lot what to do with the way that we were brought up. not, I wouldn't say a strict as much as we were just disciplined. And not in a bad way, just in a very disciplined home. And I think that has a lot to do with it. And, you know, I don't know that I don't really have any other skills in. So when I was a young man, I was just, okay, I'll just kind of do this.

and it kind of led to, you know, a 30-year career. And did you end up going to college for it? I went to college for a little while, and I studied police administration. It was always my goal. Anytime that I worked at any agency was to move up the ranks. And so even in college, I studied police administration. And then I got a call. I was living up in conditions.

Kentucky at the time going to a small offshoot of University of Kentucky. I don't even think it's still around anymore, but it was in Ashland, Kentucky. I got a call from a friend of mine who had gone to work for a local sheriff's office. And I was looking for a reason to move back to Tennessee, and I said, I'm going to give that a shot. So, you know, he got me an interview, and the next thing I know, I was working there, and I worked my way up to, you know, assisted administrator at that facility. and then just moved on to the Department of Corrections. And then 1999, I came to Rutherford County

and went to work for the Rutherford County Sheriff's Office. And that's really where I cut my teeth on offender programming. I had great mentors, people like Chief Bob Asbury, who basically let me do whatever I wanted to. if I had a really good idea, he was just like, hey, go and do it. I had great mentors in recovery, such as Judge Don Ash, who started the first drug court in the most successful drug court in America, but the first one here in Rutherford County.

And, you know, he told me things like, I'll never forget one of the things that he said. He told me, he said, and I was a young man at the time, before all this gray beard. He said, he said, and, you know, this was one of the toughest judges in the United States. I mean, I'm telling you,

Judge Ashen was, he was, as tough as he was, he had a passion for recovery. And he told me, he said, he said, if you're focusing on the discipline part

of your job, you're doing the wrong thing. And I was like, what's that mean? And he said, he said, correctional facilities should not be warehouses for human beings. And that just hit me, you know, that hit me. And I was like, wow, never heard anybody. I heard anybody say that.

And he said, they should not be warehouses for human beings. You have to do something with them while they're there. And from that day, I was a, I was a liaison with between the sheriff's office and the drug court. From that day, that's when it really lit a fire under me about helping people to restore their lives and recover. And from that day forward, it has been my mission to do the best thing that I can for those in my care. Now, do you think if you never were exposed to that, side of the correctional system, the program side, you'd still even be in this correctional

system today? Because if you had started just as like a correctional officer going through it and kind of seeing how many hurdles there are to make a change. I did that and I would have burned out. I would have burnout. But I've made it my life goal to do the best that I could for those that are like I said at the three Cs, care custody control for those in our care. And I know, without a doubt, if I had not been exposed to that side of it, the recovery side, the programming side, I would have burned out a long time ago and gone and done something else. See, isn't it interesting? It ties back into what we were talking about, that one specific moment in person and a person's life. Like, you would not be here making the change that you do if that moment where you met your mentor ever happened.

Absolutely. That's the same thing that applies to people that become in prison. They all have that one moment. Yeah. When you put that in a perspective, it's mind-changing, mind-blowing. Yeah. In the best sort of way. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it really is. And then I've had, you know, every since that day that I heard that I've had, I've had so many great people that have come into my life that have the same drive that I do. And that just makes it even better. You know, when you work with people like our reentry team, here in Rutherford County, I put them against any reentry team in the United States. They are the best. The guys you've met a lot of my administrative staff, my security staff, they are the best. And when you work alongside people that have that same passion and that same mission that you do,

it just makes everything run so much smoother. So how do you end up here in this facility, running this facility? Well, I think I kind of shared a little bit with you. I was working as the program coordinator and liaison for the sheriff here in this county back in 2010. And this building was about two years old at the time, this facility. And two years into this program being set up and this building being built, they had a lot of problems here. It was plagued with violence, sexual misconduct, you know, drug use. I mean, it was just to the point where there was consideration of, you know, doing away with it.

And so myself and another lieutenant at the sheriff's office were called into the office by the sheriff and the mayor. And they said, one of the two of you are going to go over and run that facility. we both looked at each other that I'm not doing it and he said I'm not doing it either and the sheriff looked at me and looked at Bernard Slandy who was the other lieutenant and he said then you'll both go so he sent both of us over here we came to the facility we constructed our own own team here and and cleaned the place up and from then on it became a place not just where people offenders would survive, but they would start to thrive. And we've only, you know, we've only kind of grown from that.

And that's how I ended up here. Now, can you explain how this facility operates that makes it so different than your normal jail or prison that individuals go into? Yeah. From day one, I hear a lot of reentry professionals talk about reentry starting 12 months out or 14 weeks out or there's always a date, you know, reentry doesn't start at a specific time out here. It starts from the day you walk in. we start with doing needs, risk needs assessments immediately on our residents the first couple days that they're here.

And that gives us an idea of which direction they need to go. They may be ready for treatment. They may be ready for counseling. They may be ready for work detail. They may be ready for work release. So it's really designed to be able to put people in positions that they will succeed. and that's really what our goal is, is to make sure that people leave this facility better than they came in.

And you don't find that everywhere. But I was told a long time ago. I was sent up to Spokane, Washington, probably 20 years ago to tour this prison up in Spokane. And I asked a guy, I said, one of the guys that was running in the place, I said, you know, how do I succeed? like you guys are doing here. A very progressive prison up there.

And he said, you've got to get your treatment staff and your security staff on the same page. If you don't do that, you'll never be successful. And that's one thing that we've always strived to do here is make sure that our treatment staff and our security staff are joint. They're the same. And the benefit to that is seeing low recidivism, rates. We talk about recidivism, but seeing those low return rates on people, when you've got a good

team together and it's in a good cultured facility, when we talk about prison culture or correctional culture, you know, you want to talk about a place that, you know, that it's not a danger to the resident. It's not a place, and it shouldn't be. It shouldn't be a place where someone is in fear of their life. It needs to be a place where, you know, people are going to be because they've been sentenced there. That's not something that we can change, but we can change the culture within once they get there. We can make life easier for them, which in turn will make it easier on your staff, too. Now, the actual work program I found fascinating because it's not what you hear about guys making less than 20 cents an hour. There's guys earning livable wage. There's guys

earning livable wages and leaving the prison with a nest egg that they could go and rebuild their lives. Yeah, we did a lot of research when we were building the work release here. We went all over just seeing how, you know, the pros and the cons, the negatives and the positives of how people were doing work release all of the United States. And what we built here was very unique because it, you know, in the South, work release means, you know, Uncle Bubba comes and picks up John and takes him, you know, out to the workplace and he spends all day there and then he brings him back and drops him off. And we,

we just weren't willing to take that chance. So what we did was we put in policy and, and, in a way of doing it to where we partner with local manufacturing or, or, or local companies and we train those companies and their employees to not just supervised, but to interact with offenders, the do's and the don'ts, basically. And then we will transport those offenders to that workplace. And then let me go back. So everyone that applies for work release is, we go through an interview process just like you would on the outside. We have outside individuals who come in to the agency and sit down in the facility and interview these guys.

And once that has been done and they've been chosen for work release, we find what is going to be the best fit for them. Everyone's not on the same skill level. You know, you might have a guy who's, you know, has little experience working in robotics. Then I'm going to put him in a place that, you know, he's going to be able to work and, you know, in his skill level and be successful. So we take those people to those workplaces and we drop them off there. Each one of them is wearing a GPS bracelet that has a geo field built in.

So we can tell if they step outside the door of that facility, wherever they're working or off the grounds. Typically, we don't have to worry about that. These guys really, they want to be there and work. And then we go and pick them up in the afternoon after their eight hours is over. and some of are making, you know, in this area, a really livable wage. Sometimes, you know, $17, $18, $20 an hour a lot of times. I've had residents who left incarceration with $60,000 in the bank. I mean, when you see people leave incarceration with barely the clothes on their back

versus someone leave with all of their fines and fees paid off, their child support up to date. Their wife taking care of because they're sending money home. Their children taking care of because they're sending home. When you see that and money in the bank versus that guy who barely has the clothes that, you know, I mean, let's think about when you were arrested. Think about what you had to wear that day. The cowboy boots.

Cowboy boots. A big hoodie or a jacket. And underwear. What if that's all you had when you went back out? And that's a reality for so many people. That's a reality for a lot of people. It's a reality for a lot of people. There have been times in this line of work where I have had to go out and go to

thrift stores and get people, you know, pants to wear out because they were in that same situation. I don't want to see anybody leave my facility like that. I don't want for two different reasons. I don't want to see it and then literally I don't want to see someone walk.

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So I mean, on that note, though, too, you know, there's always the negative people that say, well, this is what our tax dollars are going to. And what I've realized from one of your officers here is that the offender pays for it completely. They do. The travel, the room and board, everything, if you want to touch on that. And that's another part. That's another part of it that, gosh, I'm glad that Lieutenant talked to you about that. I didn't even think about that.

You don't miss a beat. That offender also, while learning a new trade or learning a new skill, they're also learning those soft skills about, you know, separate money and where money needs to go and where it needs to be paid. And, you know, the same thing that you and I have to do is pay our bills. and they have to learn that part while they're incarcerated too. So a portion of that money that they make, and not a large portion, is separated and goes to different funds.

For instance, transportation, you know, whatever it may be $2 a day. Some of it will go to, like I said, child support automatically, fines and fees. And then the housing also, a small portion of it is paid toward housing. So they learn that, you know, every bit of my check doesn't just go to me. You know, a responsible human being has to pay out of that check. I have to do it. You have to do it. Matt may have to do it.

I'm not sure. Depends on the day. That's right. And you also said that they're able to send Christmas gifts home in some scenarios. Well, a lot of times we will put on programs, especially during Christmas. We do it throughout the year. We put on a lot of family-oriented programs. programs where your family. I love to bring the families back together because when you see a child

interact with a parent who is incarcerated, you want to talk about doing something to you. Because the likelihood of that child following in that parent's footsteps very high already. But if they can, if they can keep that family bond while they're incarcerated, you'll see a higher success. You have to be able to do that. But throughout the year, we do programs, graduations, you know, different things where we bring the families in. We do concerts and, I mean, everything. Some things are just absolutely wacky when I talk to my peers. But it works for us.

Glyzy parties? Glyzy parties. We had one today. Matt enjoyed it. Matt really enjoyed it. I love that you know what a glizzy is. Hey, you know what? You got rowdy points.

And here's the thing. You guys are keeping me relevant in the latest of topics. But yes, we do that. But around Christmas time, what we do, it's called Operation Blessed Child. And we partner with a local church, and that church will go out and New Vision Baptist Church, great church, and they have a real passion to help those in need. And what they will do is they'll go out and they'll buy all these gifts. and they will, they'll put on a, you know, a Christmas event at their church.

We'll transport the offenders over there, our residents over there, and those residents are able to give their children a Christmas present when it normally, you know, they wouldn't even be able to see them on Christmas, but, or around Christmas, but they're able to do that. And, you know, the church does a fantastic job. of putting that together. But yeah, we love to do things like that. It's keeping those family bonds connected.

And, you know, when you start taking those things away, you take away the chance of success. Because I think you give people a reason to live for when they have that family element. And when that's gone, people go to depths of the earth without that. You better believe it. Yeah, absolutely. And you have also other programs here.

You showed us the technological. What's the proper wording for that? Metatronics. Megatronics. We do a mechatronics robotics class. We do everything from the softest of soft skills. We were talking earlier, and we were talking about, you know, check registers. How many people don't know how to fill out their check.

check register or keep up with a bank account. We do everything from that to, you know, the softest of soft skills like that and how to address for an interview, application process, how to put together a resume, all the way up to counseling, MRT, anger management, you know, art classes, yoga, all the way to mechatronics program, which is the robotics. There's a little bit of, and I wish I had a list, well, it would probably take us for the rest of the time if I read that stuff off, but I want as much

going on here as possible because you're not going to be able to reach everybody with one particular faith-based program. I want to be able to reach everybody. And sometimes that takes putting, you know, community-based, evidence-based, faith-based, you know, a little bit of everything in to be able to, you know, spread it out like seeds.

So what's the pace here for an offender? Is there room for individuals to relax and just hang out and not program? Or is it every day go, go, go, go? Oh, no, no. It's not to a point where you're, you know, you're in class for, you know, nine, ten hours at a time. We want you to work or be in class, preferably for six hours a day, hopefully, you know, because it is going to be, when you get out, you're going to have to do one of those two things. You're either going to have to work or you're going to have to go to school.

So you're going to have to keep up those normal life, you know, schedules while you're incarcerated. They have a time to get up every morning, and it's prior to 5 o'clock. Everybody gets up here at about 4.40 in the morning, and at 9.40 at night, you know, lights out. So it's very structured. But at the same time, there's a lot of benefits that come along with that, too. and there's a lot of reward for doing the right thing. And we're a huge proponents of rewarding people for doing the right thing. And I wonder if that's where most of the criminal justice system fails because, I mean, my time in federal prison, there's so much downtime.

And that's where you could cause trouble. You see the guys that are into the contraband and selling drugs and making money and this and that because you have all this time. Like if you took away the contraband and the phones and this and that, what would you possibly be doing in that day? Right. There's just too much room to screw around. Remember what I said. They should not be warehouses for human beings. You've got to do something with them while they're there.

Yeah. And I think that's where the federal system goes wrong because they're literally warehouses. Yeah. A lot of places do. And a lot of places don't understand that you can do these things for little to nothing. It doesn't cost this county to put on a lot of the programs that we do here. At one time, prior to the, prior to the pandemic, we had nearly 400 volunteers that were ready to go at any time,

step into this building. Really? Any time. So the people are out there. People want to help. You just have to reach out and find them. I mean, and they're easy to find. It's not like, you know, you don't have to go out in turnover rocks.

So they're out there. Go on Instagram. That's right. I mean, it's easy. It's easy. You just have to be willing to step outside that box, you know. And it's easy. I mean, you can frame your past and put it to the side.

And you can change that any day you want to. I mean, you make, I've worked in places that said, you know, we're the toughest, we're the toughest facility in the state. Yeah, you know, that's a part of my past. I framed that and put it to the side. you know and now I started a new chapter and that is to be one of the most successful facilities in the state and by successful I mean I want my I want my guys to leave out of here and and you know do great things I want when we talk

about rewards the room that you showed me which is a a unit a pod literally has a carpet that is and stalls with doors on it. You'd never seen that, had you? Never. I mean, there was stalls with doors in my, the low security in the camp, but not to the level of cleanliness and a carpet. You don't see a carpet.

And those guys back in the work release program that you're talking about, that's their house. That's their living space. We don't have to make them keep that clean. All you have to do is give them the tools to do it. they take pride in that. This building is as clean as it is because of the offenders who live here. You know, I'm not back there sweeping floors.

I'd be terrible at it. But they do. They love it. And they love to keep it clean. And that's why it is the way that it is. They take care of it. It wasn't always like that. You know, it wasn't always like that.

But it goes back to creating that culture where people can thrive, not survive. What do you think the success rate is here? How many individuals do you see coming back? Well, I can tell you that I see a lot in our community. And when I see them in our community, they're doing well. And those are the ones I like to focus on. 98% of the people that are incarcerated in this facility are going to go right back out into

our community here in Middle Tennessee. It may be in Murphy'sboro. It may be in Nashville. It may be next door to us in Bedford County or Cannon County. But the point is they're coming back out into our community. They're members of our community. You're shopping next to them at Kroger. Your kids are playing with their kids at school.

When I go to the ballpark, I see these guys. Okay. So when I see someone who's been really successful, I want to tell them about it. And I want to tell them I'm proud of them. You know, I see a guy in Kroger. I was telling our staff about it just a couple weeks ago. I saw a guy in Kroger, and he just broke down crying.

He was like, can I please tell you about what's happened in my life? I was like, you don't have to beg me. Hey, I love it. I love it. I love to hear success stories because it validates what we're doing here. It validates it. And that tells me that we're doing the right thing. What do you think is the biggest misconception the public has about the criminal justice system and the individuals that are housed in it and work in it?

Oh my gosh, I could go on for days. Well, give us what you think is the... But the biggest one is that when someone commits a crime, they're a bad person. No, they've made a bad decision. That doesn't make them a bad person. They've made a bad decision. We all make bad decisions. I mean, I make them daily.

It might not be to the point where it's a, you know, a breaking of a law, but it's a bad decision. And we have to stop the stigma of a bad decisions equal bad person. Some of the best workers I've ever known were felons and former, you know, formerly incarcerated, some of the best people I've ever known. For years, I tell people that I said, you know, I had, you know, when we talk about murderers, I had a murderer who, I always got along with the guy. I mean, he was just a, it's a sweet dude. And years after I sent him to the penitentiary, he sent me a Christmas card every year after

that until he passed. and that went on for years. That doesn't make him a bad person, you know, what he did. He made a terrible decision, terrible decision, but it doesn't make him a bad person. The biggest misconception that we have in corrections is that everybody that's locked up is a bad person. But what we forget is that one in three people in the United States have a criminal record. One in three. That means those are your family members.

Those are your neighbors. Those people are sitting next to you in church. Do you think those are the bad people? Because they've been incarcerated too. It doesn't make them a bad person. What it says is they've made a bad decision. But we can get over bad decisions, you know? We can get past that.

We can work past that. But you've got to have somebody that's going to go back for you. And that's why I'm so proud of our staff because I got a bunch of people that are ready to go to bat for you. It just crossed my mind. We gave a guy a furlough a few days ago. His father passed away and we gave him a four-hour furlough to go to the funeral. When he walked back in the front door, there were about four or five of our staff members standing out there. And it wasn't one of those things where they were standing out there ready to, you know, give him a piss test or, you know, or to shake him down or whatever.

They were there to tell him, hey, welcome back. I'm sorry about your dad. Told the mom who brought him back. I'm sorry to hear about your husband. You know, if there's anything we can do, let us know. That's what it's about. That's what it's about. that guy will forget that, he'll remember that for the rest of his life, that somebody gave a

shit about him enough, that cared about him enough to say, I'm sorry to hear about your dad. And that person, those people were wearing uniforms. Those people were wearing badges. Those people were officials. Where else does that happen? It doesn't. So that's why I'm passionate and proud about what our people do here. So what do you say to the individuals that form opinions based off of the actions of the bad apples because these programs are very successful, but obviously you have some that it's not successful for. And the public kind of forms an opinion because one out of a hundred escaped and brought in drugs or did this and did that. What do you say to the people that are so easily swayed by those couple bad apples?

Well, it's not the public as much as it is that I like to talk to those officials that are in charge of the facilities that are against programming. And that goes back to another story. Warden Burrell-Kane. Have you ever heard that name? Look at him up at some point. You guys are all history buffs here. Warden Burrell. We are. Warden Burl Kane. There's a documentary. I'm surprised you haven't seen it. It's called The Farm. Oh, I've heard of the farm. Okay. So Angola. Okay. Warden Burl-Cain was the was the warden at Angola,

went into the bloodiest prison in the United States. Angola was terrible. It was a terrible place to be. And Burle came, went into that prison and completely turned it around. And when I asked him one time years ago, I got an opportunity, he came to town, and I got the opportunity to spend some time with him,

take him on a tour of the facility that I was working at, the time and I said you know I was really fired up about programming back then um it was you know early on in it and I said I said warden I said what do I tell people when um they ask why do you do what you do why do you put these programs on for these people you know they don't deserve anything they're they're locked up that you know that they're getting punished and he said you tell them two things he said uh especially if you're talking to some of the officials that are in charge of the jails or the prisons.

He said, when they're in programming, offenders are either getting it or they're acting like they're getting it. They're either getting it or they're acting like they're getting it. If they're getting it, getting those programs, getting that recovery needed, getting that restoration that you're giving them, taking those tools and doing something with it, then you've done your job. And it's working. If they're acting like they're getting it,

they're still going to be better toward your staff because they don't want to get kicked out of the program or they don't want to lose that benefit that they had. So they're either getting it and they're going to be better towards your staff and be better citizens once they get out or they're acting like they're getting it and they're going to be better toward your staff and you've still planted that seed.

And one day they may just get it. And I never thought about it the same after that. I thought, why not? They're either going to get it or they're going to act like they're getting it. If you give them the program, what do you have to lose? So when I started telling people about that, they started putting programs in some of their facilities. And they'd say, well, they're either going to get it or they're going to act like they're getting it. you know

but what they saw was a drop in assaults what they saw was they they saw a drop in aggressive behaviors and it was easier on their staff and the ones that acted like they were getting it were involved and they were not in as much trouble they were not getting the write-ups that they normally were they were not having to hand out the discipline

that they were normally had to and the ones that and they were better toward staff, and the ones who are actually getting it, you started seeing succeed once they got out. So they're either getting it or they're going to act like they're getting it, but either way is a benefit. That's what you tell the people that are in the position to make the policies and put those programs into place.

What you do by putting those programs into place is you're providing an opportunity for success one way or another. but both getting it or acting like getting it, going to be easier for your staff to have to deal with every day. Wow. That was a great explanation. What's next? Like you've reached this.

Retirement. That's what's next. No, I don't see you retiring. No, I told you I've got 20 years between my sons. I've got a little one I've got a raise. I probably won't be able to retire from next. passionate about your work too. I am. I am. And I will continue to do this. I do, I try to do speaking engagements as much as I can because I want other people to know this. I want other people

to know that and to feel that same passion and know that mission that we have here and and see that it actually, you know, it actually works. It actually works. When you walk, into this facility in, did you, have you at any point when you were in a room full of a hundred offenders or you were back in the housing unit, did you at any point feel unsafe? Only when I was with Matt. Me too. No, but absolutely not. Think about that.

Everyone is so warm and inviting. And you can obviously get the initial reactions before they meet a person, but you could see as like the audience realized that I was one of them and I've been in their shoes before, you could see them open up more. I love it. And they were willing to ask questions and whatnot. And I think that shows the trust. There's just that trust that builds when you're having a conversation.

That's what we lack in society. People having an open conversation with individuals like that because I was able to gain their trust where they would ask me questions. And if correctional officers or people in the field, or just the public would do that, I think the world would be a much better place and a different place. Yeah.

You just got to humanize people. That's what it is. They're humans too. They made a mistake. And most of the time, you know, I think Jimmy McGill asked it or someone asked it during their presenting the other day, how many people in the room have committed a crime

and never got caught for it? You could very well. There are some in this room. You could very well. well easily be in the position that any one of those individuals in there. Anyone is one bad mistake, one bad decision away from being that person that's locked up right back there. I agree.

One, one small decision away from being locked up. Everyone, everyone that you know has that same, there's that same threat. Yeah, I mean, everyone. Look at all the people that go at the bar one night. Absolutely. And they're having a blast and that one detrimental mistake kills somebody or they don't kill anyone but they get caught drinking and driving. And it's all the same.

And now you have a felony on your record. That's right. That's no different than these individuals that got exposed to drugs at a young age and started selling. And then they got caught for that. And because that person has that F associated with them, should an employer treat them any different than the person that doesn't? Absolutely not. You know why?

They just got caught. That other person may be the worst person on the planet, the worst employee you could imagine. But they don't have that F associated with them when the one guy who does could be the best employee you could ever have. But I think the media is also a huge problem. in this because the media will take a case and I was saying that during my presentation that they will bash someone to the end of the earth and when that person has turned their life around

and most cases individuals do there is no cover story yeah there is no this there's no second chance that's where the embrace should be yeah that's when you should pick somebody up and go you know hell yeah hell yeah let's celebrate you for doing that and and that's that part is um it's just disheartening when you spend that much time bashing in person and pushing them down and then when they do the right thing, you're not there anymore to pull them up and say congratulations? Yeah, because I look at it now. If I didn't have the following or the platform or the things I have now, I wouldn't be treated the same way that people in the city I live in or government officials

are starting to treat me now. It's because I have a platform. But if I was, if you take the platform away and I'm just Ian Bick with a felony, they're going to treat me like they always had treated me after I was arrested. Except for me. I want the felony part. I can give a shit less about the platform. Yeah, you're going to hire me here.

Or to find a job for me. That's right. Social media relations. That's right. I like it. I like it. I like it. But Superintendent Cope, thank you so much for inviting us here.

Thank you for coming on the show. And you better keep a touch. I'm going to start bugging you. Come on. I don't think Matt's going to allow it. Allow us not.