Locked In with Ian Bick - I’m a Criminal Defense Attorney — Here’s How I Win Over Juries | Nicole Zagreda

Episode Date: March 8, 2026

Nicole Zagreda is in the trenches every single day as a criminal defense attorney in Yonkers, New York. In this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, she breaks down the true reality of representing offenders and navigating the complicated mechanics of the criminal justice system. _____________________________________________ IanBick #Lawyer #yonkers #Courtroom #TrueCrime #DefenseAttorney#courtroomdrama #TrueCrime _____________________________________________ Connect with Nicole Zagreda: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nicole-zagreda-401620126 _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Shop Locked In Merch: http://www.ianbick.com/shop _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 The Reality of Being a Criminal Defense Attorney 00:54 Growing Up Between Yonkers and Dutchess County 02:13 My Strict Albanian Upbringing 04:06 How My Childhood Led Me to Law School 05:25 Why I Became a Public Defender 06:39 Struggling in School Before Becoming a Lawyer 07:55 Do Grades Matter for Lawyers and Law School? 08:50 What Law School Is Really Like 10:17 The Biggest Lessons I Learned in Law School 13:36 My First Steps Into the Legal World 15:17 Finding My Identity as a Lawyer 16:07 From Law School to Legal Aid Attorney 20:00 Learning Felony Defense at Legal Aid 24:10 How Defense Attorneys Earn Clients’ Trust 27:17 Winning My First Jury Trial 29:23 The Moral Dilemmas of Criminal Defense 31:50 Court of Public Opinion vs the Justice System 34:15 How Juries Decide Criminal Cases 38:40 The Risk of Letting Clients Testify in Court 41:12 Getting Emotionally Attached to Clients 44:07 Burnout in Public Defense Work 47:52 Leaving Legal Aid for Private Practice Law 49:54 The Business of Running a Law Firm 52:46 How Lawyers Build a Client Base 55:27 Advice for New Lawyers 58:09 Visiting Clients in Jail for the First Time 01:00:02 Technology and Evidence in Criminal Trials 01:03:13 What to Look for in a Criminal Defense Lawyer 01:04:31 Trial vs Plea Deal: The Gamble of Court 01:07:30 Judges, Bias, and Courtroom Politics 01:10:04 The Mental Toll of Defense Work 01:13:52 Advice for Future Attorneys Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Monopoly is a trademark of Hasbro. Hasbro is not a sponsor of this promotion. You have to be so hyper vigilant in everything that you do in the way that you respond to the judge, in the suits that you wear, in your eye contact with the jurors or with a witness. Do you remember your first case that you had that went against your morals, but you still took it on a professional basis? I told him, if you get acquitted, I'll get your name tattooed. And so I have his street name tattooed on the top of my foot. Do you prefer to put your client on the stand or not? Do not get frustrated.

Just be cool. Do you remember your first time visiting a jail or prison to see a client? Nicole Zagreta is a criminal defense attorney in Yonkers, New York, and every day she's fighting to win cases for people accused of crimes. In this episode, she reveals how the system actually works, what juries really respond to, and the strategies lawyers use to win. So I grew up in Yonkers until I was probably like eight or nine years old, then moved upstate to Duchess County.

I stayed there until probably the end of college and then moved right back down to Yonkers. I, it's not that I lie, but I typically leave out the Duchess County part because in my heart, I feel like I'm a true Yonkers girl. Hey, Duchess County Fair. Yeah, Dutchess County Fair. Yeah. That's actually a really nice time. Yeah, yeah. I went the first time a couple years ago.

Yeah? It's really cool. Yeah, did you like it? Yeah, I liked it kind of better than the Baxter. Big E. I'm in the Big E school, but it's just so crowded at the big E. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, Dutchess County is cool. It's just, it's so much different. Like, there's not, where I grew up specifically, like, there's nothing around. It takes you 25 minutes to get to, you know, any store anywhere. And then the high schools are kind of weird because they're so massive because

there's not very many of them. So I graduated with like 898 kids. So, and I was Zagreta. So I was last in line, sat there all day. Were you the only Z? It was like me and maybe like 10 other people. And the whole time we were like, oh, my God. I'm shocked. My family even came.

What was your upbringing like? So I grew up really traditionally Albanian. First generation. My parents got married. My mom was, it was an arranged marriage. My mom was like 16 or 17 when she got married. married. And then they came to New York. So it was, like, very traditionally Albanian. And the thing with Albanians, especially being first generation, is there are a lot of, like, set gender roles. So typically,

like, there's a thing that my mom says, men are the head and women are the neck. And so that's kind of how Auban see women is like in a more supportive role instead of like head of the household. So it was a lot of gender role affirming things that I learned young, how to cook, how to clean, how to serve people, which is actually, like, I value that now. but it was hard when I was younger because I didn't understand. And like, it wasn't normal in the sense that, like, you know, when you're a kid, you go out with all your friends, you have sleepovers, you go to parties. Like, we weren't really allowed to do that. I didn't have a sleepover until I was in, like, eighth grade. So it was very, it was difficult for a number of reasons.

but it obviously made me who I am today. So I'm grateful. But now it's just my mom and my two older sisters, 10 and 12 years older than me. Do you think that mindset pushed you into the line of work you do now? Yeah, 100%. Like, it developed in me this thing where I feel – It's a little hard to describe. Like, I don't like doing things just because people tell me to do things now.

When I was younger, it was obviously that's the only way that I could act. But now I find myself kind of always trying to go against the grain a little bit. It's part of the reason why I always wanted to be a criminal defense attorney because most people don't want to be criminal defense attorneys. They want to be prosecutors or whatever. So, yeah, definitely. So did you know from a very young age that you wanted to be an attorney? Yeah.

I was like 14 or 15. And I don't know how I got it in my head that I was going to be a defense attorney. But I committed to this idea. And not just a defense attorney, I always wanted to do public defense. I was like, I'm going to be a public defender when I grew up. And then kind of everything that I did afterwards was just like maybe confirmation by, but it just confirmed that, you know, I really wanted to do it. I thought that I could be good at it.

So I was very lucky in that way. How do you think you came up with public defender? I mean, most kids are, it's like attorney, but it's so specific. I love the idea of helping people less fortunate, right? So the thing, you know, we hear it all the time, like public pretenders or whatever. meanwhile, most people actually are represented by public defenders or some type of court-appointed attorneys. And those people are entitled to not just, you know, representation of counsel, but effective assistance of counsel.

And so I, even, I don't know, even at a young age, I would hear things like, you know, public pretenders, whatever. because my sister was going to law school at the time, and she'd come back and tell me stories and whatever. And I put it in my head that I wanted to be a really good public defender to serve not just the profession, but the people. Where do you go to college and law school? I went to Binghamton for college. Actually, oh, okay, can I tell you my come-up story? Yeah, tell you. Okay. So one thing about my childhood, too, is that it was never really, like, my parents didn't focus so much on education. At least my mom didn't, right? It was like, because she had only gone to the fourth grade. So it's not that they didn't see a value in it, but it just wasn't like you have to get straight A's or whatever. Basically, I just had to show up and not fail. Turns out, I almost did fail at a high school.

I was like bottom of my class. I just didn't get it. I didn't get what I was supposed to be doing. I didn't want to do it. And so when I was applying to college, I got rejected from like all of these colleges, whatever. And then I went to Westchester Community College for two years. And all of a sudden fell in love with learning. And it like totally clicked.

It was like my world opened up, ended up doing really well, transferred into Binghamton. and there, like, you know, just kind of took off. And I ended up doing well there, too. Met my best friends. And then I went to, I took a year off. And I went to Albany Law School. I don't know. Yeah, I took about a year and a half off.

Yeah. How important do you think the high school grades are for a career? Not important at all. Not important. Nobody ever asked me. what I got in math in high school. So I don't think it's important. It's important to the extent that, you know, you want to be able to get into college so that you can then go to law school.

But even in community college, like high school was a distant memory. Yeah, that's what my brother did. He got good grades in community college for a couple of years and then transferred to a different college. Yeah. It's the – honestly, like, I'm totally grateful for the experience because it's – It saved me like a lot of money. And there's actually a lot to be taken out of community colleges because it's less about, you know, like hanging out with your friends and getting the full college experience. So I loved it.

I thought it was wonderful. Now, since you knew you wanted to do criminal defense, do you like elect that as an elective throughout law school or is it a standard lesson that they teach you the whole time? So it's law school is very general. They teach you all kinds of, of, it's not specific in any kind of way, right? You do contracts, property, evidence, criminal law, family law, like all different kinds of things. So you don't necessarily pick a track. There are things that you can do, like you can do a criminal defense clinic or you can intern with the public defender's office or the prosecutor's office. But that's kind of like up to you. What I noticed in law school was that it was people were encouraged to be prosecutors. I remember sitting in an evidence class and the professor who was a criminal defense attorney asked who here wants to be a prosecutor. And like 70% of the class raised their hand. And he was like, okay, and who wants to be a defense attorney? and me and the one girl next to me were like,

and it was just two of us in this massive, like, almost 100-person class. And so, you know, they had like a lot of prosecutor affairs, and they didn't do that for a defense attorney. So it was really, you know, up to you to kind of do it how you wanted to do it. What do you think was the most important lesson you learned throughout law school that you still use to this day? That's a good question.

Um, hard work produces results. Again, in law school, second part of my come-up story, I, they tell you you have to, uh, relearn how to think, okay? So I had done well in college and I'm thinking like, relearn how to think. Like, I know how to think. I could do this. Um, but it's thinking in a different way. So I didn't understand that. I was kind of cocky in my approach to it. So I ended up in the bottom 25% of my class in my first semester. And then after that, I let go of the ego a little bit because we all, lawyers all have egos. But I let go of the ego a little bit. And I did then try and, you know, relearn how to think. And after that, I realized, like, if you work seven hours, you will get results as good as seven hours. If you work 15 hours, your results are as good as 15 hours.

So the more you work, the harder you work, results will come eventually. Yeah, I was actually getting into this debate with someone on Facebook because I posted, like, a status about, you know, how hard work has gotten me to where I'm at now. And some people say a lot of it has to do with like opportunity and privilege in some senses. But I mean, I genuinely think if no matter what you pick, as long as you find that right door that opens for you. And there might be multiple doors if you put in that work, you'll get to where you need to be. 100%. And opportunity is like, you make opportunities by working hard, right? If you're if you're sitting on the couch every day doing nothing, like there's not going to be a door that opens for you. But if you're hustling,

if you're working, if you're putting yourself out there, then yes, opportunities will come, but those opportunities are earned. And sometimes a little bit, I suppose, is luck. But even luck, you, I believe you make your own. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, hard work will open those doors and I'll get you to places that you wouldn't imagine. 100%. So the harder you work, you know, the better off that you may be. And like, listen, the reality is, is that might not be, you could work so hard and you might not get to the place that you want to be based on your specific abilities, but you'll always be better off or as close as you can possibly be. And I don't know, I really value hard work. I love working. I'm like totally a workhorse. I, it's,

I mean, I have this thing where I base my opinions about myself based on how well I'm doing, how hard I'm working, which is in some way a blessing, but also, you know. But you're also, you love what you do and you're passionate about it. Very, very. This is my dream job. Like, I can't imagine ever doing anything other than what I'm doing now. Where do you go when you get out of law school? So I went to a firm in Manhattan. They did, it was three partners.

They did a bunch of different kind of types of law. The attorney that I was working for did subrogation. Sounds boring. It's so boring. It was mind-numbing. And if you asked me a single question today about subrogation, I'd say, just because it was, you know, a lot of forms, paperwork. So, but I loved watching them exist as attorneys. I loved watching them talk about their cases with each other, you know, like band together

in the struggle. I really liked that. So I was there for about a year and then I took the LSATs twice and then ended up in... Enjoy more ways to save at Ralph's, like low prices in every aisle. And when you download the Ralph's app, you can clip and save more with digital coupons every week. Plus, you can earn fuel points to save up to $1 per gallon at the pump. At Ralph's, you can enjoy more ways to save and more rewards every time you shop. So it's always easy to save big every day with savings and rewards.

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Actual mileage and range may vary. Albany law. So when you were at that firm, was any of that criminal defense or no? So one of the partners practiced criminal defense. And he was like everything that I want to be. Like he'd sit in his corner Manhattan office like, smoking cigarettes, yelling at people on the phone. And I just thought like, man, that guy's so cool. I bet he's so cool in court. And he is cool in court. And so, you know, it was actually,

it was a really incredible time. I learned a lot. Do you still feel that same way about him now? Yeah. After being in that role and... Yes. I noticed that the people that I think are cool attorneys, like really good attorneys, are exactly who they are in court outside of court, which is in the beginning kind of hard to do because you have this idea about what you're supposed to be, who you're supposed to be as an attorney, right, how you're supposed to practice, how you're supposed to present yourself. And then you end up in a position where you're like, okay, that totally was not working for me. Nobody was buying it.

So I just have to lean into who I am. So, yeah, I just saw him a couple months ago, and I was like, God, you know I love you. He's like, I know, everybody loves me. So you go to Albany Law. How many years do you do there? Three years. Okay. And then when you get done with there, where do you go? I went from Albany Law back down to Yonkers, and I was studying for the bar right at a law school. It was a weird time, though, because it was COVID.

So they kept pushing, because we didn't know what was going to end up happening, they kept pushing our bar exam off. So another three months, another six months. And then it turned into it may be virtual. And it was the first virtual bar exam that they had, you know, done. So it was really tough studying for a test that you didn't know what it was going to look. like. But I ended up taking the bar. And I stayed in a hotel. Yeah, I stayed in a hotel because I was like, nobody's going to bother me. Stayed in a hotel. 10 minutes into the exam, the front desk is calling me. Apparently my mom sent flowers. And later I was like, I told you not to contact me.

But yeah, it was really hard, really hard. Did you pass the first time? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. How long does this whole process take, you know, to actually get like? licensed? Well, okay, so let's say three years law school, six to eight months later you take the bar, you get your results. And then for me, I had to, you have to apply for, everyone has to apply for character and fitness, right? So that took me probably another eight months because I had, you have to disclose everything. And it asks you about, parking and traffic tickets. And I made the mistake of disclosing all my traffic tickets. And I had to get like

certificates of dispositions from like four different courts and one of them was the Bronx and it was like just such a nightmare. So it took me a little while. But then once you pass character and fitness like you're good to go. What would have happened if you lied on that? You cannot lie.

They won't pass you for character and fitness. do people do it maybe but like I'm like the type I get really nervous about the potential consequences so I was like even if this ends up being a nightmare like it is what it is I just have to do it so you become the licensed attorney where do you go next so actually my last semester of law school I was interning we had this program at Albany Law where you can like work in the field for a semester and earn credit so so I was working at legal aid in Westchester And so once I passed the bar, you know, got everything done, then they offered me a job.

So I stayed there for about maybe like three years, three and a half years. But I learned a lot at legal aid. You get court assignments, right? So, like, they sent me to Yonkers, which I really felt like good about because Yonkers is is the busiest court in Westchester. So I was like, oh, they think I can handle Yonkers. So they put me in Yonkers, and I loved it. We only handled felonies in Yonkers.

And typically in the city courts, we only handle felonies at that legal aid office. And so I became familiar very quick with felony practice. Now, as a new attorney, how do you assure a client, you know, who's staring? down felonies, maybe facing prison time or a hefty sentence, how do you assure that client that you're the one for the job? So, you know, I was lucky because I had really incredible teachers, like really incredible supervisors. So if at any point a client would call me and ask a question and I did not know, I would be like, I'm so sorry, I'm getting another call. I got to call you back in five minutes and then call my supervisor and be like, hey, he just asked me this.

Like, you know, what do I say? And they wouldn't give me the answer, but they'd say, go to this specific statute. Or I have a case for you, review this case, and then, you know, make your decision. So it was difficult because the stakes are so high. You don't want anyone to feel like you don't know what you're doing. But I made it my business to, learn as much and as quick as possible. So, like, there's a book handling a criminal case in New York. It's like $1,700 or something. But we used to get them from legal aid, and I would spend, like, nights and weekends just reading this book. So, yeah, I mean, at some point, you have to accept, They're not going to give you the homicides fresh out of law school.

They're not going to give you. They're going to give me D&E felonies. But, again, I was lucky because very early on to my practice, like, they started giving me more and more and more, which I feel proud about. Do most of these clients have any idea that you just became a lawyer? No. So that probably works to your advantage, too? Yes. Totally.

I did have one client who Googled me, and he was like, you've only been a lawyer for a year. And I was like, yeah, and I'm a pretty good lawyer too. So, yeah, it's, no, typically they don't know, which is better. Now, what about with age when you say you have an older client? How do they treat a younger attorney? I don't know. Initially, I thought that it would be harder to get someone on board with me being their lawyer because I'm so young. But I think part of it is confidence, right? If you know what you're talking about or look like you know what you're talking about, people do get comfortable with you. And I think I'm good in that way. and also I'm like the type if I don't know something I'm not going to bullshit you I'm going to say I don't know I'll call you back in 20 minutes when I figure it out and so I think that made people even older clients you know comfortable with me yeah I mean I think I'd rather want the young confident attorney rather than the 65 year old 70 year old that is just like yeah whatever yeah because I've met a lot of attorneys who are very nonchalant yeah like they're they're almost too confident but you're you're you're you just, I don't know, I don't feel as safe.

Yeah. Well, but this is the thing. Like, this job does something to you that eventually you get tired. And that's not to say, like, you know, once you hit 60, like, you're tired and you don't want to do it anymore. But you've seen so many things. You've done so much. You've handled so many cases. You've dealt with so many different types of prosecutors and judges and people that it's true.

you kind of plateau in your desire to seek more. And I think younger attorneys are good because, like, especially, you know, the younger attorneys that I know, like, we're all desperate to gain more experience, get more information, do more. And it, you know, makes us pretty good, I think. Do you remember your first trial? Yes, I do. Okay, I was second C on a DWI trial. I don't count that one, okay? My first trial where I was first C at legal aid, it was a robbery. It was, this guy was charged

with multiple counts of robbery, okay? The complaining witnesses identified, so two complaining witnesses, they identified two black men as the suspect, okay? My client is all. one Hispanic guy. And not like dark-skinned Hispanic, like white, right? So that was an issue. And then what happened was my client went to, got picked up by a taxi, taxi took him to this, dropped him off at this place in Yonkers. All of a sudden, he's the only other person with these two people on the block. There's like some kind of exchange that you see on video, whatever. Then goes back, gets in the taxi, gets back, you know, gets back home, dropped off. The taxi driver and one of the complaining witnesses had basically the last, the same last name. Like, it was different in like, okay, the complaining witness, the last name ended with ES. And then the taxi driver was easy. So there's so many weird things going on that I was like, there's no way this is a robbery. And the client was adamant.

I mean, they're usually adamant, but I don't know. I really believed him. But so anyway, week-long trial, hardest thing that I've done probably even since. And he was acquitted on everything in under 45 minutes. And then I told him, if you get acquitted, I'll get your name tattooed. And so I have his street name tattooed on the top of my foot. What does that say? Mojo.

I give you credit for that. That's pretty badass. Yeah, he loved that too. He was like, no way. So, wow, your very first trial you win. Yeah. Do you think that gets to the head a little bit as a young attorney back then? It, honestly, no.

I have this thing where when I win or I get a good result, what happens in my mind is I say, right, that was the right outcome. It's less like I'm so proud of myself. I did a good job. It's more like that was the thing that was supposed to happen. And I did the things that I was supposed to do to make that happen. But I mean, did I talk about it for like eight months after that? Yeah, 100% I did. I loved it. I thought it was like the coolest thing. Now, are you one of those attorneys that want to know if your client's guilty or not when you first meet with them? Or would you rather not know?

I used to want to know. Now I don't carry you the way. Nobody tells you. Like, it's so rare that a client will say, like, listen, I did it, you know? But I don't ask And really the way that I do it is like Okay, well if it was you in the video Hypothetically, what do you think that person was thinking?

And then it gets to this whole thing where it's like, well, it's not me in the video. Like, yeah, I know, dude, I know. Do you get people that are like hypothetically speaking if I did X, Y and Z? Do you automatically think they did it? Like I feel like whenever someone does that like you see in TV or the movies, they did it. Yeah. They just don't want to physically admit guilt on it. Yes.

Which is crazy to me because, like, I'm your lawyer, dude. Like, I don't care. Even if you did, like, what's going to happen? If you tell me, like, yeah, I did it, I'm going to say, well, can't represent you now. You shouldn't have said that, you know? Like, it's immaterial to what I have to do for you. But, yeah, people talking hypotheticals all the time. And my response is, well, hypothetical.

hypothetically. And then I go into this whole thing. Do you remember your first case that you had that went against your morals, but you still took it on a professional basis? Um, no. I know this sounds crazy, but I don't, I haven't had a situation. And I don't think I will based on who I am and what I think about practice. But I haven't had a situation where the nature of the charge deeply affected me. You know, I'll say this, because you've had defense attorneys on that say, oh, I won't take certain types of cases. Like, you know, typically it's crimes involving children because those are the types of cases that are so morally reprehensible to us, right? When you spend all of the time, energy, money, becoming a lawyer, making all those sacrifices,

you're allowed to practice however you want to practice. So if you want to be the type of attorney that says, oh, I don't take domestic violence cases or crimes involving children, that's totally within your right. And actually, you want a lawyer that says that instead of a lawyer that takes whatever and then, you know, shits on you to the prosecutor. But for me, I don't, I mean, I can identify when there's egregious conduct, right? I'm not a monster, but it doesn't affect me. It's I, the purpose of my job is to promote due process to provide effective assistance of counsel.

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People hate defense attorneys. In those types of situations, I always think you have. hated, you hate that defense attorney until you're charged with a DWI or you have a traffic ticket or someone makes, you know, a false allegation against you. And then you need that defense attorney. Like that person is just doing a job. And like, if I'm representing a client charged with like a rape, I'm not going in there saying, well, you know, what's the problem with rape, am I right? It's not that I'm condoning the conduct. None of those attorneys are condoning the conduct, but they have a job to do. So, you know, I understand people's feelings about it. I just think

it's misplaced. What about people in general judging those individuals that are charged? Do you think it's well-deserved or should they let the criminal justice system play out first? I understand having, I understand that there are certain things that you inherently find offensive, okay? Like domestic violence cases. Like nobody likes men hitting women. So you can, you are entitled to have your personal feeling. about a person's conduct. But I tell people all the time, like, it's not your job as someone watching the TV to make a judgment as to someone's guilt or innocence. It's the juror's job. That's it. So you can have your personal feelings, but, you know, the court of public opinion is different than being actually inside the courtroom.

But do you think that's what's wrong with the justice system right now that it's so there is that court of public opinion? Yes. I think that you know TV and technology really could be detrimental because you know like when you have a high profile case or a case that's been televised like even locally When you're, like during trial, when you're selecting a jury, the judge will ask whether, or one of the attorneys will ask whether anyone has seen anything about it in the news. And you don't know, typically they'll say yes, but you don't know in what capacity they've seen it, right? Are they, did they see it on truth social or something and it's, you know, filtered in a very specific way? or did they see it on, you know, like a different platform that frames it in another way?

It's very difficult with the Internet. Now, speaking of juries, do you think a big part of your job is winning them over yourself as a person? 100%. 100%. When I was prepping for my first trial, I was Googling, like, things to know. as a defense attorney. And one of, there was an article about jury selection and written by a defense attorney. And he said something to the effect of the prosecution has the community, the police, the facts,

all on their side. But the one thing that they don't have is a personality. And so, and I. not always, but for the most part, I find that to be true. Prosecutors can be a little more stiff. And, you know, for defense attorneys, like, especially when you don't have the facts or the law on your side, like, you want people to like you or at the very least want to engage with you. Do you think guilty people have gotten found innocent because the jury just did not like the prosecutor and, you know, vice versa? an innocent person being found guilty because they didn't like the public defender or attorney?

100%. 100%. Like, it's trial is a stage. It's all about, it's not, I shouldn't say that. It's really about the facts and the law. But so much of it is perception. Like when you're on trial, you have to be so hyper-beats. vigilant in everything that you do in the way that you respond to the judge, in the suits that you

wear, in your eye contact with the jurors or with a witness, because jurors, while they're there to do a job, right, they're still human people. Like, they like what they like, they don't like what they don't like, and they want to like you. They want to be amused by you. They want to not be bored to death. So, yeah, you have to give them that. And sometimes the fact is, is whoever they like better gets the win. Do you prefer to put your client on the stand or not in trials? No.

No, typically, there are very limited, limited circumstances where I, like, want to put a client on the stand. Actually, a funny story about Mojo. He had to testify. And me and my co-counsel go to the jail to visit him, okay? And we're just going through, like, the questions that I'm going to ask him, okay? So I don't even have anything written, whatever. And so, okay, we do this whole thing for, like, 15 minutes. I said, okay, let's start now, okay?

Tell us your name for the record. and he tells us his name. And he says, okay, and how old are you? And he says, 27. He just had his, like, 52nd birthday. And me and my co-counsel are looking at each other, like, what the fuck did you just say? Like, we can't put this guy on the stand.

He's like, I'm sorry, I got nervous. I was like, you can't get nervous here, dude. Like, you're going to be in front of a jury. But, yes, it's very risky to have your client testify, especially because the prosecutor is going to get an opportunity to cross-examine. them. And they may be fine with you as, you know, their lawyer. But prosecutors are good at trying to make clients look not credible. Yeah, under the skin. Yeah. So what's the biggest piece of advice

you tell your clients if they are on the stand? I exactly that. I say, do not get frustrated. just be cool. And also like, be yourself. Don't make jokes, but just talk how you talk. Like, you don't have to be anything that you are not. It comes across as disingenuous. Don't be disingenuous. And don't get frustrated by the prosecutor. Is there a case that really stood out for you that you, the first time maybe you got emotionally attached to when you were working in legal aid? Yes. I, I, I, I, had a kid charged with a gun. It was a possession of a weapon second. So it was a violent felony.

And it was tough for me in the beginning because basically the way that the gun was recovered is he's driving out of the projects, I suppose, in Yonkers, in a white BMW, okay? And he's a black kid in a white BMW driving out of the projects. So he gets pulled over for not stopping at the stop sign, which is like, you know, borderline ridiculous. And he's nervous because it's his first arrest. And he's being very respectful of the cops. He's answering all the questions. But he's like, you know, he's shaking a little bit. he's not making direct eye contact, just because he's so uncomfortable.

Turns out gun was recovered in his waistband, which he kept on him for protection, okay, because it was bad area in Yonkers. And so was charged with the weapon. He ended up, after everything was sent and done, and I loved him because he was so respectful and like mindful of me and like really trusted me and being, you know, kind of brand new to the profession, I loved that. That felt so good to be so trusted. And after everything was said and done, he ended up with a misdemeanor and probation, which he should be done now. But that's like forever my buddy. Like he texts me photos of his kids.

like I dropped off gifts for the kids. Like, he was really, he was really deserving of a lawyer that really cared and really deserving of a good outcome because he, he's going to be great. He's a good person. So, so I really loved him. I still love him. I feel like attached in that way. Do you think working in legally helped you get into private practice or helped you in private

practice. Yes, 100%. Especially just handling felonies at legal aid. It also prepared me for volume because there was a, you know, there was a point at legal aid where I had 154 assigned cases, which is like egregious. Yeah. How do you deal with that? Like I couldn't imagine. Yeah, it was, it was really hard. And like, you have to, you have to consider. to like, okay, let's say I have 150 cases, and 50 of those people have one family member that wants to know what's going on with their case. So I'm now responsible for like 200 people. Legal aid was kind of interesting because we don't have vertical representation. So it's like if you're assigned to a client, it's not 100% yours 100% of the time. Like another attorney will be

assigned to court and they'll handle your cases. But when you're like, me, like, you do feel, like, solely responsible. So, you know, every night I'm, like, putting in the database, like, tell the client, I'll see him at the jail tomorrow, you know, adjourn the case for two weeks, say this to the prosecutor. But it's exhausting. It's mentally, mentally, physically, emotionally exhausting. Now, how do you keep track of who's in what jail or who has to go to court on this day or, you know, having a multiple? And then even remember what each case is, say you have like four in one day. How do you even compartmentalize that? Now we're at legal aid.

Back then, when you first start, because as time goes on, I'm sure you gain a lot more experience. Yeah. I had, I was like a serial killer in my office. Like, I had sticky notes everywhere, sticky notes and all kinds of poster boards, you know, my jail list and which prosecutor is assigned to which case. It was just, it was chaos. And I, there were points where I, like, I actually couldn't handle it. But at that point, you know, everyone's kind of in the same position. So I would say, like, I need a break. And then my supervisors, who were so wonderful, would step in.

So there was at least that. I was very lucky in that way. How long were you at legal aid for? About three and a half years. Why did you decide to leave? I like to practice the way that I want to practice. I don't agree with blanket rules. And also, like, I don't like other people touching my stuff

or making decisions on my cases. I want a client to know that when I'm their attorney, I'm going to handle their case in a certain way, or I'm going to be, you know, good for them in this specific instance. So I always knew that I was going to go into private practice. I wanted to straight out of law school, which I'm so glad I did not. But, yeah, I like to be responsible for everything that I have, especially when the stakes are so high, you know, I can't stand too many cooks in the kitchen type deal.

What's something they don't tell you in law school about starting your own practice that you had to discover on your own? It is, the administrative stuff is very hard, right? Like, you know, too. Lucky that you have, like, people to help. But, like, I'm all of it. I do the office stuff. I do the client stuff.

I do the course. Like, everything is me only. Meanwhile, you think, or I thought, yeah, just go be a lawyer. But then you realize, you know, you got to pay office bills and all kinds of stuff. So, yeah, it's difficult. But nature of the business, I suppose. Yeah, I used to do everything, but then I learned that's not what I love doing. Like, I love doing the interviews and making the clips and putting together the final product.

So I should focus on that. And yeah, it costs money to have the other things to keep that running. But I think it protects your piece and not get. getting burnt out at the same time, too. 100%. This is, when I went off on my own, a judge said, you're losing money every day that you don't have a secretary. And now I understand.

Like, and so now I'm kind of working on because I share an office space with two other attorneys that actually came from legal aid. We all left and now we're all in private practice. But now we're all considering like, yeah, you guys could get like a shared secretary. Yeah. My old attorney had one of those, like that worked in multiple law offices. Yeah. It's there's, you can't do it.

It's really hard to do it without. Do you remember your first case in private practice? No. It was probably a court assigned case. But in the beginning, I was doing a lot of traffic stuff. But no, nothing really sticks out. How hard is it to build your own? clientele as a brand new attorney and private practice?

Very hard. The way that it's worked for me thus far, because I've only been practicing for five years, the way that it's worked for me thus far is I have attorneys that really want to help me, way more experienced attorneys with way more money than I have. So if they get a call from a potential client, they'll not. take it and instead send it to me or call me and say, hey, I have a client charged with a misdemeanor. It's in Poughkeepsie. Would you be willing to take it? I don't really want to go to that court. So that's been really, really helpful. Like, you can't do it alone. You need people

in your corner who support you, who respect you. So it's been a lot of that. And I think I'm okay with it happening slow. I've accepted that it's going to take time to build, like, a private client base, but it's fine so far. What do you think it's been the most important piece of advice a seasoned attorney's given you? That's really stuck out. You always hear people say, be yourself. and it's hard to understand why that's so important until you're in a position where you're like shit, should I kind of like tone it down a little bit?

Should I be a little more of this or a little more of that? But it never works. And so like really being yourself, I am, the way that I'm talking to you now is the way that I talk to my clients, sometimes a little more refined. but I am who I am. So, like, you know, I have clients that I'll say, if you call me, I'm not going to answer. But if you text me, I'll answer. So, you know, it's, you just have to exist in the way that you do.

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VALU-F P-27. While Supplies last. Selection varies by location. See associate or Lowe's.com for details. Do and it's much easier to practice that way? Do you ever have clients that are surprised by that personality, the way you come off? Yes. Yes, I do.

I think it's, I think the surprise. comes where they're like upset with me in the beginning or they're frustrated by their case or they're like, you know, they don't want to be in custody. Of course. I get that. And so they're talking shit to me when they're mad at the situation. And then I'll say, listen, stop. I'm trying to help you out. Like be cool, dude. Be cool with me because I want to help you. And then it's like, all right. Well, I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I apologize. So, yeah, it's surprised sometimes, yeah.

Do you remember your first time visiting a jail or prison to see a client? Yes. The first time I ever had to go to Westchester County Jail, they made me take, you're supposed to take your jewelry off, okay? I have, I wear every day a lot of jewelry. So I went and I was like, come on. Like, almost trying to schmooze them. And they were like, no. Like, you have to take your jewelry off.

And I remember that always, because now as I'm on the way, I'm like trying to take off all my rings. Are you ever worried those conversations aren't actually that private? At the jail? Yeah, at the jail. So the way, so Westchester County Jail has attorney rooms. They have, like, you know, the big kind of general area where clients meet with family members. and then they have specific attorney rooms. I do feel comfortable for the most part, so long as neither me nor the client are being loud,

that it is, you know, like totally confidential. And I typically go to the jail on the weekends, too, so there's not really a lot of people to overhear, whatever. But also, if you have a client that's in trouble or, you know, in the shoe or in protective. custody or whatever, there's, they put you in this specific place where it's just plexiglass. It's thick, though. So you can't hear each other unless you're both screaming. And I don't like that because then everybody could hear. You're not in a specific room or anything.

So I typically don't do, I won't do that. No, say something does over here, say your client confessing guilt to you. Is that admissible if they reported it to say the prosecutor? If who reports to the prosecutor? Say there's a guard that listens in accidentally or intentionally to a conversation between you and your client at the prison or jail. That's kind of an interesting question. So you actually, you could potentially waive confidentiality if you are, if there's an opportunity for people to overhear you. So like if I'm having a conversation with a client in a Starbucks, it's, that.

could potentially cause a problem for client confidentiality. Is it admissible? Probably not. And I would be shocked if that ever happened. Because, I mean, for the most part, like, the CEOs don't care what you have going on. You know, they're doing their job. They're not worried about your specific case. No, speaking of admissible in a world where everyone can record something so easily,

now there's a feature on your phone where you can hit record. What's a legality of that? And is that usable or? It is. I hate that you ask me that question. I've been so curious about it. It's very difficult because you have to, in order for something to be admissible, it has to be the thing that it purports to be, right?

So if the prosecutor is playing a video and wants to say that it's from, you know, the victim's phone, like, I need to have the information that it did, in fact, come from the victim's phone. But it's very all over the place and still kind of, like, developing. I mean, there's, it's fairly easy to get things like screenshots in so long as you prove that the numbers are who they're supposed to be assigned to and blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I mean, I know like screenshots and texts have probably always been allowed, but now you have like the feature where people can actually record you saying something. I wonder how legal that is.

Have you faced anything like that yet? No, not yet. And the day that it happens is going to be a long couple days for me, but no, not yet. I haven't seen that. Do people, do you know if people have to tell you if they're recording or not? In New York, they do not. New York is a one-party consent state. So you can be recorded without telling the other person.

Oh, wow. Yeah. Just not in like government buildings or whatever for Hibits at? Yeah, yeah. Okay. But yes, you could be, you know, having a conversation out on the street and someone could have their phone in their pocket recording the conversation. and they don't need your consent for that. Now, say you got arrested tomorrow and you were the defendant, what would you look for in an attorney?

That's a really good question. I want someone who wants to give me a second, who looks like they want to actually talk to me about what's going on, right? Like, if an attorney comes to me and says, you're getting out today, I'd be like, okay, but can you tell me what I'm charged with? You know, in the very first instance, I'd want someone that I, that would acknowledge that I'm in a really vulnerable position and I need you to make me feel like you see me in this position. And also, like, just in a general sense, like, there's this thing about whether defense attorneys should be friends with prosecutors. I had a professor in law school who said, you would never see me in court in front of my client ever talking or laughing with a prosecutor. And I always had that in my head that was the appropriate way to be. But then I realized there's actually a lot of...

good that can come from having a mutually respectful, uh, relationship with the prosecutors. So like, I'd want my attorney to be able to tell me like, no, that guy's cool. Like, he wouldn't fuck us over. You know, he'll listen to me. If I, if I send a mitigation, I'll actually review it. Um, instead of an attorney. Like, I'd always be kind of weary of an attorney that's like, we're going to fight everything, every second of the day.

know, because it doesn't really work. It doesn't work. Do trial scare you, or would you rather plead out? Or what's kind of your take on that? I love trial. Love trial. I will take any opportunity to take any trial I can. Typically, most cases plead out because the risks of trial are great, right? But, and I think you might have had another defense attorney on the podcast. I said it perfectly. trials are an opportunity to hold the prosecution's feet to the fire. We need trials to, like, vet prosecutors, have them vet their own cases. So I love trials. That's not to say they're not intimidating.

Like, you know, I struggled to sleep weeks before trial, and they're very, very difficult. but they're really important. And it's a constitutional right. Like, you have the right to take a case to trial. So even when a client is like dead to rights, like on video, if you want to take it to trial, as long as you know, the risk's involved, like, okay, I'll do it. I mean, I guess in that sense, it's like gambling. You never know what's going to be that next card or in this sense.

It could be the jury. 100%. someone, you need all of them to agree, you just got to get that one, you know, cause a little bit of doubt in the mind or someone that's maybe anti-government. Right, right. It depends on so many things. And also, like, the thing that I have to explain to clients all the time is, like, it matters who the judge is, too.

Because if you get, you know, a very pro-prosecution judge, you can have a really tough time presenting your case, you know? So there are so many things that matter that you kind of don't have control over. I can do everything perfectly and you could still be convicted. I could have all the – we could have the facts on our side and you could still be convicted. And that's, you know, a huge risk, especially clients that are facing, like, state prison. Misdemeanor trials, little, you know, lower stakes. Most you could do is 364 days.

but like I don't know if someone even if I was in totally innocent of something if it was either take it to trial or take a misdemeanor like I don't know I'm I might personally consider a misdemeanor so do you think it's a disadvantage when you have a judge that was a former prosecutor versus a judge that was a former defense attorney it's actually so all over the place there are defense attorney judges well judges who were previously defense attorneys, who you think would be a little more lenient with the defense, it actually turns out to be the opposite for a number of reasons. One of them being like, they know the, like the bullshit and they're not interested in hearing

it from you. And also, you know, it could be the case that they just were so sick of criminal law. dealing with the clients and the volume and all of that stuff that they're kind of now internalized this dislike for criminal clients. So it's really, you... USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at USAA.com.

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Can't ever tell how a judge is going to end up. I just don't know if I believe the whole thing that a judge could be fully impartial because we're human. Like you're going to have some opinion of the person. whether it's how they look or how they taught or anything, you know? Right. Is that truly really like that perfect person as the judge, you know, because everyone has a past. So I just, I don't know. I think that's one of the flaws of the justice system.

A hundred percent I agree with you. It becomes easier when you can, when you accept that. Like, I could be 100% right about something. And if this judge doesn't like me or like my client, I'm going to lose the argument. And option A is continue fighting to the death. And option B is figuring out a different avenue of relief. But yes, they're humans. The best judges are – because I can think of a number of judges who are like, no joke,

really tough, tough on sentencing, tough in their expectations of clients. But they are so fair. They'll always give you an opportunity to present your defense, to represent your client. They respect that you're doing that. Your client's going to get slammed. But they really, they really try so hard to keep it as black and white as possible and give you an opportunity to do your job. When you go into a new judge's courtroom,

does it feel like you're walking on egg shell trying to feel out his or hers rules and how they operate the courtroom? Yes, totally. And one thing that my sister taught me is whenever you're in a new courtroom, and I do this, you go up to the court officers and you say, hey, it's my first time here.

I just, I don't know this judge, like, is it cool if I'm on my job? phone, can I sit in the jury box? Like, is there anything I shouldn't say? Because the court officers are there all the time, so they'll know the judge. And people like when you ask questions in a genuine way. And it is genuine because you don't want to do something stupid where it's like now you have to, you know, sit with the fact that this judge probably hates you forever. Do you ever get, you know, shy or, I don't know, maybe insecure or how do you have that confidence at all times? Because we are human, you know? I don't. I definitely don't. I feel uncomfortable a lot. But the way that I think about it is like,

you don't, I tell myself, like, you don't have a choice. And I know that sounds kind of harsh, but it makes me feel a little stronger because, like, if I say something stupid and the judge is reaming me out, Like, I want to hide, but I don't have a choice. So I'm going to sit there and then they're going to finish and I'm going to say, I understand, I apologize. And that's it. And you just kind of do your best. But there are so many times where I feel like, you know, I walk out of a courtroom and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm the worst.

But I also notice, like, those points, you see them so much differently than other people see them because people don't want to see you fail. Nobody wants to see you fail. I genuinely believe that. Court officers don't want to see it. Judges don't want you to fail. Everyone wants you to do okay. So when you think that, you know, you made a mistake or I was kind of like waffling or kind of like looked like I didn't know what I was talking about, it may hurt me, but it's not perceived in that same way by them.

What's one kind of case you haven't tried yet that you want to try? A murder. Never done a murder. Never done a murder. No. Haven't done a murder. I would love a murder. But, you know, those are, that's a heavy lift.

It's like even just the time it takes is it could go on for weeks. And during that time, I have 50 cases on and six. different courts that I need to get coverage for. I need to prep for another attorney to help me. So, like, you know, that will come with his own issues, but I would love to try murder. Yeah. So what happens with that? Is it all on you to have the cases reassigned to people? Or did the courts understand and they kind of push it out in time? Or? So you could do it a couple different ways, right? Like, you can have an attorney who's in that court already. You know they're going to be in that court. You could say, like, hey, listen, I have four clients on. Can I send you some information? Would you mind

covering me and just sending me the next date? Fine. Typically, lawyers are, like, fine with that. So long as they're in the court. Or you can email the court and say, you file what's called an affidavit of engagement, basically saying, I'm assigned to a county court and I'm representing this client on this trial. Can we adjourn all of our cases? And typically, they're good about that. But either way you do it, it's still a lot, especially, like, even in a week. In a week, I'm in court five days and I have, let's say, 40 cases. So whether I'm asking people to cover or typing out 40 docket numbers for the clerk of the court to ask for an adjournment, like, it's a lot. Do you ever have a case where, you know, you look at that individual and you're like, wow, this could have easily have been me, you know, maybe X amount of years ago?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yes, this is the thing. When I tell someone I'm a defense attorney, their mind always goes to rapists and murderers. It's always the same line. How can you defend rapists and murderers? Meanwhile, they're forgetting, like, everybody commits crimes. Not everybody gets caught, but we all have done something to put us in a vulnerable position.

may have gotten lucky or whatever. But the clients that I represent are just straight up real people who sometimes do stupid stuff. But yes, I could have been in many of my client's positions on many different occasions. Tell us about the mental and physical toll of the job. Physically, it's difficult. I'm not going to lie. And I, I, I, I, wear heels, too. So it's not easy, okay? And I'd like my, you know, flowers for wearing heels for six hours a day. But mentally, it's, I take this job home. You're not supposed to do that because it affects you so deeply. And not only does it affect you, it affects everyone around you. I have not yet figured out how to separate it from my life.

Really, the way that I treat it is my job is my life. And it is emotionally draining, especially when, because the reality of the system is that many clients have mental health issues, substance abuse issues, come from poverty or broken homes. There's always something going on. So, you know, you're getting calls from angry clients who are, like, super high. And then you're like, listen, dude, I can't do this with you. Call me tomorrow.

And then, you know, they'll hang up and they'll call you back. And I'll get seven, eight, nine, ten phone calls in a row. And it's even that is like, you feel like I want to talk to you because you want to talk to me so bad. but I can't. There's no talking to you. So it's really incredibly emotionally draining. And I come home at the end of the day after talking all day. I'm like, I don't want to talk to anybody.

I don't answer text messages. I don't do anything. Once I get home, I just scroll TikTok for like four hours and then fall asleep. Yeah, I do that too. Like after coming out of long interviews, you don't want to talk to anyone. You've just gotten so much emotional baggage. the guest onto you and you're just like trying to decompress it. Yes.

So I imagine that with clients. 100%. And like your your brain is firing like rapid fire. Like even what you do, you have to mindfully listen to what the guest is saying, respond in kind, listen again, respond in kind. And so it's this constant like my brain is always on. I don't have an opportunity to kind of turn it. off and is tiring. What's one piece of advice you would give a new attorney fresh out of law school?

Learn from everybody. Learn from everybody. Ask questions about everything. Ask everybody. I think I see attorneys act like they know it all. You never want to be the smartest one in the room, okay? Because if you think you're the smartest one in the room, I guarantee you, you are not. So always look to other people.

You might get some bad advice, and you might even use that bad advice, but that's a lesson in, I'm not going to ask that guy again or I'm not going to do that again. So be open to everything all the time. Well, Nicole, I appreciate you coming on the show today. Yeah, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, you did good for your first ever podcast. Thank you. This was really stressful.

Oh, stop it. You did great. You crushed it. It was really good. I appreciate it. Thank you so much.