Locked In with Ian Bick - I'm a Gambling Addiction Psychologist — Here's Why You Can't Stop Gambling | Dr. Michael Zhang

Episode Date: August 16, 2026

Dr. Michael Zhang is a PhD psychologist whose work focuses on gambling addiction and behavioral change in the modern digital environment — and in this episode of Locked In with Ian Bick, he tells the complete truth about what gambling addiction really is, why it starts, how online gambling and sports betting have created the most dangerous and most accessible addiction environment in history, what it actually takes for someone to finally get help and enter recovery, and what the psychological reality of rebuilding looks like for the people who make it through. _____________________________________________ #gambling #casino #psychology #addictionrecovery _____________________________________________ Connect with Dr. Michael Zhang: Website: https://incumental.com YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@drmikezhang Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.mikezhang  TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drmikezhang LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drmikezhang _____________________________________________ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick:  https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ _____________________________________________ Timestamps: 00:00 Introduction: Meet Dr. Michael Zhang 00:18 Dr. Zing's Background and Path to Gambling 01:15 Getting Into Gambling Treatment 03:47 Defining Gambling Addiction 06:13 Recreational Gambling vs. Addiction 06:55 Gambling in Prisons 12:22 The Gambling Industry's Reach 13:20 Prediction Markets: A New Gambling Front 14:17 Celebrities and Influencers Promoting Gambling 19:00 Understanding the Gambling Mode 20:55 Activating the Gambling Mode 23:10 Ian's Story: When Gambling Becomes Survival 24:29 The Birth of a Gambling Mode 26:00 Big Wins and the Illusion of Freedom 29:27 Naming the Gambling Mode 33:59 Naming the Recovery Mode 36:00 Gambling vs. Building a Life 38:28 The Elusiveness of Gambling Wins 41:40 Fake Wins and Real Worth 46:48 Rebuilding and Walking Away 53:20 The Message of Thanks and Goodbye 57:57 A Message to the Younger Self 01:04:09 Gambling and Suicidal Thoughts 01:07:14 Activating Recovery Mode 01:10:01 Supporting Loved Ones with Gambling Addiction 01:12:34 The Ripple Effect of Gambling _____________________________________________ To advertise on the show, contact [e-mail] or visit https://advertising.libsyn.com/LockedInWithIanBicka

My guest today is Dr. Michael Zing, a PhD psychologist who specializes in gambling addiction. Today, he's going to tell us why gambling addiction starts, analyze my own history with gambling, and what it actually takes to get out. I grew up in Sydney, Australia, and that's where I spent most of my life as well as an adult. I've been in America kind of on and off. I live in Utah now, Salt Lake City of all places. Like I was saying, I think I may be the only second generation Chinese-Australian. who lives in Utah. If there is another one, then, you know, reach out to me. We can definitely

connect. But yeah, when I was in Australia, I was a psychologist and I worked at a gambling treatment and research clinic at the University of Sydney. And I loved what I did there so much. And part of that involved actually going to correctional centers and doing group work with folks for gambling treatment there. So I really, I really enjoyed my whole experience and love what I did. And that's what led me to kind of the next part of my journey, which is, which is incumental. And I'm sure we'll get a chance to talk about that today as well. How do you get into this line of work to begin with? It's great question because many people get into this line of work through direct lived experience. For me, I got into it similar to how many people get into gambling

itself. Yes, I chose psychology. I chose that because it was very meaningful to me, and I found a purpose in it. But gambling was something I just fell into by accident. Most people will say something similar to this, like that no one imagines that they're going to end up in gambling addiction when they first start. I didn't imagine going to a gambling clinic to begin with. I'd end up with a whole career now in this. So it was kind of an accident in a sense. But it was probably the best thing that's happened to me because the clients that I work with at that clinic that I mentioned, it was just eye-opening. It was just the best. I loved my clients so much, Ian, they inspired me in so many ways. You know, at the clinic, we were

focused a lot on treatment and really kind of the professional approaches and the frameworks and the modalities and all this stuff. My clients, they taught me about recovery. They taught me about lived experience. They taught me how to make that the focus of a whole platform and a community. And that's what I've been building and a part of building. And I'm wanted to do that with people who have lived experience. So for me, yeah, people will hear this and say, oh, this is a gambling experts per se that doesn't have gambling experience, but I've worked with hundreds of people who do. And you know what? It really struck me. They'd be saying to me, like, you get it. And then they're like, tell me about your story. And I'm like, I don't have

that story. But the fact that they're telling me that I get it, it's because I went into their story with them. I went into the darkness with them. And I really tried my best to understand. and, you know, it at the level that they experienced it. And I think that that's what made me good at it in a sense and ultimately made me empowered to do what I'm doing now because my goal is just to help as many people as possible because I know so many are struggling with gambling and so many are struggling silently. You know, it's not something that anyone knows about. It's just them. And those listening who are struggling, probably feel in the same way. Like, oh, he's right. Like no one knows. And then they're thinking, does anyone get me? Does

anyone understand this? And there's so many people right now who are putting their stories out there and that show yet that you're not alone, but at the same time, I also get it too in a different way. I get it in a way that's like, let's see if we can bring real psychology, real methods that work and help you overcome this in a long-term sustainable sense. What does it mean to have a true gambling addiction? It means you get, I'll put it this way, I'll put it this way. And I think this analogy is appropriate for your show. Gambling addiction is the invisible prison. That's how I think about it now. Because when you go into it, you may look at it initially like, oh, it's just something that I'm doing. It's just another activity. It's recreational. It's entertainment. And you start

thinking about later, like, oh, it represents something more. There's like a meaning that gets attached to it. And a big part of that meaning is about freedom. And I think you, I think you know, because I've, by the way, I've been studying you and your story a bit before I came on today because I think we're going to, I love having conversations, but I also love demonstrations. I think we'll get a chance today to do a bit of both and not just tell, but also show the folks some of the things that we actually do at Incummental. But the addiction, I believe, is when it starts to feel like, the trap. When you want to escape and you're like escaping from whatever other parts of life that are difficult and also escaping from all the things that gambling has made more difficult.

And then you're using gambling to escape from those things. And the invisible prison just gets reinforced. And that I believe is ultimately what the gambling addiction is about. Because the more you try to escape, the more trapped you get. And you may be seeking freedom from it. but then your freedom gets taken away because of it. And the urges that come about, I think that they're a defining feature of the gambling addiction. It's like, what is this? I'm feeling like, it just feels like it's compelling me to gamble.

It's like it feels like there's no other way. I have to do this. And then you're kind of telling yourself at the same time, just one bet, just one more bit. This time will be different. It's something that will solve the problem. And that's the problem, the way that I see it, Ian. It's the problem is that the problem feels like the solution, if that makes sense.

That's actually the problem where gambling feels like it's the way to solve things, but it's really the problem. That's the underlying problem. Is there a way to actually do it recreationally or is every type of gambling in some way in addiction? I believe that there is definitely a way of doing it recreationally. Most people listening to this probably doing it recreationally. and it's not becoming something more sinister or more problematic for them. So I believe that. And I even believe in your case, by the way, again, studied your story a little bit.

I believe that you, if you're gambling now, you're probably doing it recreationally, unlike some of the gambling before, which I think played a different role. So absolutely, recreational gambling does exist. But there's a risk. You know, there's a risk because all problem gambling started as recreational gambling. So there's a risk that it could spiral into something more. How and why? Big wins.

That's how. Now, I'm curious of the correlation between gambling and people that end up in prison. We hear about drug addiction so often, but we don't hear about gambling addiction as much. We need to hear about it more because I did some research into this before the show and I found, hey, it's about 30%. So 30% of those who have lived experience of incarceration also have gambling addiction or gambling problems. And these numbers are probably underreported. They're probably outdated as well from research. You know how research works. Like you never get the most up-to-date stuff from there. By the way, those numbers already are like 25 times greater than the general population. So already we know that.

When I was at the correctional centers in Sydney, Australia, working there doing the groups, we only had a couple of people in any time we did the groups, which, you know, I accredited them in respect for them to actually doing that because it was an optional thing. They didn't have to do it. They weren't mandated to do those gambling groups. But they would say to me, they'd say like, you know, it's interesting. There's only like two or three or four of us here, but every one of the folks out there has a gambling addiction. That's what they'd be saying. And I'd be like, oh, that's interesting. That's what they were telling me. And I believe it, because I've heard, I've heard, and maybe you can attest to this, something about half court shots or something like

Is that true? Dice, half-court shots, cards, everything. I did a $10,000 bet of a half-court shot. But I made it. You made it. I made it. But it is possible. But I mean, just like how prevalent drugs are in prison, gambling, I would say, is even worse.

Because if they found a way to get rid of every single drug in the prison, there's always going to be gambling because you could gamble on anything. If you have commissary and the ability to do push-ups or place. basketball or sports. Even if I was just in Texas, they don't have playing cards to counter gambling, but they have dice. I mean, or they have dominoes, which to me didn't really make much sense. But you could gamble on anything, and you can make cards too. Exactly. So I do believe that it's a very common thing. And I'd also believe that many people who have experienced incarceration will be struggling with gambling as part of the reason why, you know, I'd why I want to show.

about what I do because I'm all about helping people in this particular way because I recognize the need for it. I also recognize there are so many barriers out there, both within oneself already, but also just with the way the whole systems have been designed. A lot of the existing infrastructure, well, first of all, it doesn't exist. Second, what does exist is really shaped by what they call responsible gambling or responsible gaming. So it's like the industry has its hands in shaping how people get support. And a lot of things that happen are about compliance. Like, we just have to meet certain requirements. If we're offering gambling products, we have to be able to provide different things to people. Here's a helpline here. And then here's some resources you can access.

But all these things, most of them, they're free, ineffective, partially don't work. It's not what really helps people. Like, that's why I've been building what I've been building to ensure that we have the best possible methods. We're not, we're not shaped by this responsible gambling game. that they're playing to just, they call it safer gambling. And what they really mean by that is the people who are struggling the most with it, we need them to keep gambling because they make up our revenue. They're not worried about real recovery because real recovery would mean for them revenue reduction. That's not what they're interested in. You know that. And I'm the other way around. I'm all about real recovery. That's what I believe in because you're playing with people's

lives. People's lives get ruined because of gambling. Like in every way, you can think of, it's possible. Which, again, you never think that when you get into it. But then when you're in the trap, when you're in the invisible prison, you start thinking, oh my gosh, like, how? This isn't me? How did it get to this point? And it gets to this point in a very clear way.

And we'll cover that a little bit later in the show. Do you think it's harder to recover from a gambling addiction because it's so much in your face in today's world compared to, say, a drug addiction where you can, in a way, remove yourself from that environment? It's not like you're driving and you see a bill. board for cocaine or something to trigger that addiction. I think that's definitely a part of it. I mean, the whole setup of the system, you basically have what I, one of my friends,

his name is John Michael Harris, and he has a whole framework. He calls it healing for us. And in that framework, he talks about how you have the machine and then you have the establishment that are running the machine. And then I just call that whole set up the system. So the way the system works is it's designed intentionally in a way to keep people gambling, to get people into it, almost to shape a whole generation now of gamblers is what I'm seeing taking place.

And everywhere on your phones, on the TV, whatever shows you may be watching sporting matches, it's like integrated into the whole experience of life now. Like everything's a betting surface. So prediction markets, great example. Now you've got, you can bet on not only the traditional markets, but now you've got other things like politics and reality TV shows and all sorts of things you can bet on now that weren't available before. So it's everywhere. I believe that they want people to keep gambling because ultimately that enriches them because the only way for gambling to succeed is for you to

fail. What is the difference between the prediction markets and a true say gambling app? They call it trading and they put it into its own category. And it's regulated in a different way. They're not subject to the same, to the same restrictions as gambling is. But if you look at it fundamentally, it's just like a few different forms of gambling that have been integrated and bundled together. It's ultimately a form of gambling as an activity, but it's shaped and framed in a different way so that they can get away with it more as like a financialized, you know, instrument.

Like, oh, now we're aligning it more with like investing and this, you know, it falls in place within the marketplace and it's form of trading now. But the way that I see it is this, right? What would happen if you keep going long term on prediction markets? The answer is simple. Because of how it's all been designed, fees and all this that are built into it that benefit, you know, the Calches and the polymarkets of the world and all the other emerging prediction markets because of how it's been designed long term, you are guaranteed to lose on the most part. it's like such a small number of people who actually have long-term gains and wins on those prediction markets. So that's how I see it. If that happens to most people, if it happens

in the long term, and if it means that they're not actually building wealth through prediction markets, it's just another form of gambling. They may not call it that. That's fine. They call it whatever they want to get away with it. But ultimately, to me, it's definitely gambling, not much different in terms of how the activity is and not much different in the way. the end result and what it does for people. For them to succeed, you have to fail. How do you feel about celebrities promoting gambling and doing these types of sponsorships, even podcasts, any type of individual with a platform? I don't feel great about it because a lot of people look up to the celebrities and kids are being shaped by kind of impressions that they get from these celebrities. So

I don't feel great about it, but I mean, I know why they're in it. You know why they're in it. It's because they're being, it's sponsorships, it's deals that they're getting and, you know, and it's at the, it's really, it's kind of like sacrificing, you know, a lot of people and their, you know, their futures, you know, for some of those deals. I hate that that's happening, really, because it means that so many people are going to be struggling because that's kind of how they're getting into it. These folks, you know, even the gambling influences, the industry is finding every way to try to get this out again to shape like a whole generation here of gamblers, especially young men who are struggling with this. And it's working with the gambling influences too because they go out,

they put all this content out there that makes it look like they are winning and they're winning big and it's possible and you want to try this. It's sexy. It's amazing. You're missing out. You got some FOMO there. You got to go. You got to do this. And the reason I hate seeing this is because all the losses, they're not displayed. All the losses, they're hidden. And the losses are really the operating expenses for this whole thing. So that's not really how they're making their money, but they're presenting it that way. And it's tricking a lot of people to say, you know what? Maybe I should give it a go.

If you think I should give it a go, you put yourself with the possibility of having a win. And then having a win, especially early, is what gets the whole process started. Because if you're like me and if you lost the first time, second time, third and fourth time, you gambled, no gambling problem. because I never wanted to go back. And that was before I even got into gambling treatment and recovery. And after getting into that, I think I may be the most immune person to gambling in the world in a funny way, not only because of my initial experience, but also because of all the work that I've done in this particular space, helping people,

I don't think I'll ever gamble as a result. Do you think that these influencers are actually up at all on gambling specifically, not there, you know, the money they make from social media or from ads. Some, some of them may be occasionally, but overall, I would say the answer is no. In fact, just met someone, funny enough, just met someone in Utah recently, which is like the lowest in gambling, okay, in the US, because of how it's been restricted there. And we were at a World Cup watch party at the, you know, at the Salt Lake Stadium. And this guy, he was, found out he was a streamer. And we got up to, my, my friend goes up to him and says, oh, what are you, what are you streaming for?

He's like, oh, I'm a gambling streamer. And he's like, oh, I work on gambling and dictionary recovery. He's like, I think I need your services. I think I need your services because I'm struggling right now. I'm losing. You know, this guy's lost so much money from gambling. And then I would say, like, you know, it'd be best to ask them exactly how the books look. But for me, it's got to be all operating expenses because ultimately, you don't win on this stuff in the long term.

That's just how the game's been designed. And that's not how you build wealth. Their platform is probably how they're building wealth. But gambling is even eating into the streamers and the influences right now. So that tells you something. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more of those folks out there also experiencing the same thing. And I think a lot of them, it's just so unrealistic. You know, you see some of these gambling streamers losing a million dollars on a sports ticket.

The average person does not have a million dollars to put down on something. 100%. But it doesn't matter how much. That's the thing, right? As long as it's most of your money or all of your money, as long as it doesn't matter where you are in terms of wealth distribution, like all of that counts towards the gambling industry's profits. Again, who's the profit?

The profit is us. Like we are, we're the ones that make up that profit. it. And again, a lot of people already know this too. So like, how come you can't just get it? Like, if you know this, like, shouldn't you just be able to stop? But then that's, that's because something's happened. Something has really evolved in your experience of the gambling that makes it so different. And that, and again, keeps you in that invisible prison because it's what, what I say is this, you've developed a gambling mode. And this is language that we use, an incummental. It's part of our method. You develop the gambling mode. By the way,

I think you developed the gambling mode at some point as well, hearing a little bit about your story. And it's almost to me, right? Again, let's continue the analogy. The gambling mode becomes all-consuming. It starts like dictating your life. It starts just shaping every decision that you make and creating almost like a double life. It's like that version of yourself and then just takes over. So the gambling mode in an interesting sense is like the warden, of the invisible prison. So this is what we need to work on because people, everyone's capable of developing a gambling mode. I genuinely believe that because in the work that I've done, both at the clinic and since then at Incummental, what I found is,

no matter what your background is, no matter how much money you have, how little, how, you can have tens of millions, you can have tens of dollars. Ultimately, anyone could be impacted by this, no matter your culture, your background, your ethnicity, any other factors you want to put in there, I believe that anyone can be susceptible. Why? Because anyone's gambling mode can get activated. Once it's activated, then it starts almost like having a life of its own. It starts like, you know, kind of like giving you messages and convincing you that you've got to keep gambling and giving you compelling reasons to do so as well. It will use anything and everything against you if it can. And it will use your own life against you as well.

Gambling mode is so powerful. And again, I would love to do some demonstration with you so we can get a sense of what gambling mode may be like. How does that sound to you? Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Real quick, though. Yes.

Now, what's one of those situations where you've seen a mode activated? The gambling mode? Yeah. What's one of the causes of it being activated? Many causes. So some folks, I mean, I would say maybe. a real interesting one is folks who, who've grown up watching gambling, like, you know, the family's gambling and, you know, it's kind of almost like becomes an attachment in a way.

Like that, I believe, is like not just gambling mode being activated, but it's like gambling mode plus a whole emotional existence around it. And then it's like, and then, and then you feel like almost like belonging as part of the gambling mode. Again, gambling mode will use anything. So we'll use all of that to, to shape, you know, you know, you know, you know, your decision making. But, but, and the most common one is this, though, I would say. The most common way gambling mode is activated, we take it back to what happened when you first started gambling.

Ian, what happened when you first started gambling? Do you remember? Yeah. Well, I mean, I was introduced to it recreationally. And it was completely recreational until things in my business started to crumble. Right. And I turned to it as a necessity in order to survive. I used it as a, the thinking it was the solution to a problem, but in turn it just kept becoming the problem.

I like to give it to this example. So I was in the music business, a booking artist, and say the show was four weeks from now, and I needed to pay that artist $20,000. And I would take online ticket sales, say $2,500 would come in. And I'd get that advance. And I would say, okay, I need to figure out how I'm going to come up with the $20,000 payment because the agents need it, you know, at least half of that a week in advance or two weeks in advance from the show. And so I would have that money and I'm sitting there saying,

well, I don't have all the money yet. Let me go to the casino where I've won before. We pay some Baccarat and turn it into it. And I'd had some success sometimes, but in this occasion, I lost. And then I'd go several more times with another $2,500 that I would get from ticket sales, all of those being losses. Now had I just waited for each time, not gone to the casino and just waited for those ticket sales to keep coming in, I would have had enough to pay the artist in full.

They wouldn't have gotten it on time of where they wanted, but they would have gotten it by the day of the show where as opposed to the day of the show happens and now I don't have the money for it at all because I lost $20,000 gambling to try to make that money back in increments. So that's kind of like the best example. Great example of where gambling mode sort of became fully formed and started to, you know,

shape these very important financial decisions that you are making relative to your business. Take it back, though, before the recreational gambling. What do you remember about your earliest experience of gambling slash winning? I'm guessing there was because it couldn't have been my example of first four times you gambled. You lost every year. Then you're like, oh, this is not worth it. I'm sure it was different. There was always gambling, like, for non-monetary purposes.

Like, we would play Drayal, you know, on Hanukkah for chocolate chips or like the chocolate gold coins or, you know, I guess like an ice cream. You'd win a prize. Like, I always liked to win. I was never really a sports guy at the theater. But if I did play a sport or something, that feeling of winning, if we'd play Manhunt or paintball. Yeah, yeah.

But it was never really for something, you know. So I don't know where that actually came from. What's interesting about your story in particular is as I was, you know, studying, I was thinking, oh, man, like, Ian's got, he doesn't really have, like, the gambling mode in the same sense that many people do when they first start gambling, because when people start gambling, who end up developing the addiction, what it starts as is something more like, oh, I had an early win, and then that win, it could have been a few hundred, maybe a few thousand, that early win starts to give me the belief that, oh, it's possible, this is nice. Let's do this again because if we can do this

again, this is like, and many people think this. They think, oh, I could turn this into a career. I could actually do this because look how easy it is, look how quick it is versus doing it the typical way of, you know, earning your money and putting in the hours and putting in the work. Like, oh, this is sensational, right? And I think that's how it starts for a lot of people. Like, if you look at addiction stories, take it all the way back, that's where gambling mode is birth for most people. But in your case, I found that interesting because I'm going through and I'm thinking, he has more of an entrepreneurial sort of a mode that then ended up recruit. It's like gambling mode ended up being recruited by that or ended up recruiting the entrepreneurial mode and then

merging it into something else. Again, it will use anything and everything against you. So it's almost like it used your kind of business savvy sense and said, you know what? We can turn this into, we can turn anything into gambling mode. Like gambling mode is like, let me bring you into, we'll bring you into the invisible prison, okay? Because ultimately, you're the only one who feels it. No one else even knows you're in that prison. No one else even knows you're trapped in that way.

And you're hiding it and, you know, and you think, again, and you said this a moment ago, it goes like, the solution, it feels like the solution, but the problem's getting worse. and then it keeps feeling like the solution and it only feels that way if you've had big wins and I'm guessing, in your case, help me out between, from recreational gambling

to more of the problematic type, did you have any big wins? Oh, I had a bunch when I first went, I made like three grand. Three grand, that's a big one. And then we went a couple times because we would go to Yonkers in New York because it was 18 to play digital.

But what happened, I think for me, why I got latched onto it at that point in my life was because every time I had an emergency to pay off, say, a biker gang I owed money to or needed money for an artist in the beginning, I was always able to go and win. There was one time I turned 500 into 25 grand, stayed lost it all back down to 300 and then got it all the way back up to 30 grand and walked out of there with it. So there was like a period of, I'd say six months where I could depend on going there to bail myself out. But then for the last, last half of it, that's what ultimately led to prison because I needed resources to keep the

club going, to keep operations going because we weren't bringing any money. It was at that point where there was no other options in my mind I would lose every time. And then I got busted for going out of state against my supervised release. And the judge gave me prison time. Had I not done that, maybe I would have gotten home confinement or supervised release, but then you and I wouldn't be here right now. But it was that necessity. But then when I compare that, to gambling now, I would say now is more recreational than anything because I don't depend on that money. I have a business. I don't mix the business with that aspect. Like, I'm not going to go and sell off all the equipment and risk payroll and everything to go gamble. But I would do gambling

for fun, like with a sports game and stuff. But also, I do get sponsored by gambling organizations here and there. And that's also tough too because I see some people's comments. It puts me as someone that has the past and also has interviewed people with gambling addiction, kind of in a tough position sometimes because I look at the moral aspects of it. But I also look at the business aspects too. So it's like one of those things, you know, where it's like tough. But will I ever be like a gambling streamer? No, never. That's just not my thing, you know? I won't sit there. I couldn't do it. I do the casino in small increments and doses. Not to mention if you did ever become a gambling streamer, we know what that future looks like already. You're going to be risking

everything you've built as part of your brand and your platform, because gambling mode, once at all, right? Like gambling mode, it will take everything from you and it will make you put everything into it. And for yourself, right, it seemed to me like it was, it felt like kind of like the only way at the time. It felt like this is like the only possibility. Like this is the way of getting that money.

Even though to your point, if you just waited for the sales, it would have all come in and, And yeah, it would have been delayed, but it would have worked out. But then gambling mode is telling you something different, which can we just do something for now? Yeah, of course. I would love for you to name because I like doing this. Like, let's give a name to your gambling mode. I doubt you've ever done this before. No.

But just think about like what would you actually have called that mode that you were in, especially when you were going through, you know, through that troubling time of your gambling experience. Do you have a name for it? What comes in mind? I mean, the first thing, it just thinks is a surprise. survival, you know, because every time I went during that era, it was just to survive. It was not for fun. If I won big, it was not to go buy myself a toy, you know, it was literally to, there's people trying to kill me or thinking they're trying to kill me. I need to get this money, you know,

I want to pay people back. So appropriate. Survival, right? Again, it's like, it feels like this is the only way that we can do it. The options feel so limited. We have to get money. We have to be able to do this. And by the way, just contrast it. Your gambling mode was trying to help you, quote, unquote, survive back then. Are you thriving now? I would say, yeah. I think so. Yeah, I would say it's good.

I mean, I'm paying restitution and, you know, have a business. We have employees. It's way different. It's 3,000 times different than what it was when I was a kid. Yeah. I mean, I think about it every day when I had a business as a kid. We didn't have business credit. I'd have a debit card that was, we were making a joke yesterday,

overdrawn by $3,000. And when we did have money in the account, it would be exciting to get some of those bank overdraft fees back, where they'd refund you, like, say, $500. So you have that extra money. But it didn't operate like a business. I pay taxes. We have accountants, lawyers, all of that. I love what you're saying.

You know, it's survival is the name of your gambling mode. And it was just really trying to help you to survive at that particular point. Again, whilst it was trying to help you to survive, it was doing the opposite too, right? It was like it was taking as much as it could from your life and putting you in a place where you needed to survive because it's like, hey, I need to escape from this. How do I do this? Gambling felt like it was the only way to escape from this. And what it really did was cause you to feel more trapped and then feel less freedom

as a result. I feel like you needed to depend on it more for survival and hence the cycle. That's how gambling mode typically works. it starts, it gets birthed because you have some sort of winning or at least meaningful experience around it. If it wasn't yourself winning, maybe you saw someone, I hear this a lot as well, you saw someone else win a little bit of money or another good example. You asked me earlier about people.

Some people, they work in the gambling industry. And then they see if they're at a physical venue, you know, they see things happening. They're like, oh, that person won, that person. You just go, just go to Vegas, okay? Go to Vegas and then talk to people who've worked there and then see how. I think most of the folks who work there have either have or have had a gambling problem or addiction because they've been around it. And then it has activated their gambling modes.

Here they are working in the venues and then going and gambling, you know, for leisure. But then putting all of their money into that and then developing a gambling addiction for many of them as well. It's very unfortunate. But that's definitely a trajectory too that I've noticed where people they're exposed to it. And then they're like, oh, gambling mode starts to feel and think different things. And then you're like, oh, it gives you the idea that we need to do it and to keep going. And that's ultimately the message, right, that you get from it. It gives you a reason to start and it gives you a reason to keep going.

It gives you no reason to stop. And it will give you any message you can to keep you going. It will even tell you, one of my friends even says this. He's like, my gambling mode was telling me, oh, once you win, once you win that back, then you'll stop, then you'll stop. It even uses that against you to keep you gambling. No matter what, it will give you any message if it can keep you gambling, because that's what your gambling mode wants.

That's what everyone's gambling mode wants. It sounds to me like your gambling mode is no longer dictating. It's no longer the warden of an invisible prison in your life. It seems like your gambling mode is kind of along for the ride now and is doing many, many great things because you've got so many possibilities and revenue streams and options that you didn't feel like you had before when gambling mode was dictating and shaping your life story. So I think that's a wonderful thing to see how recovery mode does its work, which I'm curious,

if your gambling mode was called survival, what would you call your recovery mode, Ian? I would say it would be success. Success? Yeah. I love that contrast. Because it's definitely the opposite of survival and it's not like treading. You're not just treading water. Yeah.

I think when you come from where I've come from with that history, I think what it comes down to is having, and for most people I think it is, is having that feeling of purpose and passion. I mean, think about how many people may be working a job they hate. They're making minimum wage. And it's Friday paycheck hits. They have, say, two grand. They'd love to have more, but they don't have that passion or hobby or side thing that can make them more money or give them an opportunity. And that's when they log into the gambling app to say, let me try to test my luck here. And they look at that as a business when it's not a business, but that's what they're looking for really is to have that side business.

So I compare that to my life now. You know, I found what I was looking for in life, having that success, having that passion for something. and a business where I don't need to depend on something else to try to give me that feeling. I think it's so appropriate to call it your recovery mode success. And I think that it's not only your recovery mode. It's also, it also defines your earlier life experience too, because what I understand about you is you did have quite a bit of success growing up and the different ventures you got involved in at a young age were very successful. And that's kind of what led to ultimately the position that you were in,

where gambling mode sort of got activated. And then you enter, because when I was, you know, listening to your story, I was thinking, this guy's chasing losses, but he's not like he's chasing losses in a business sense. And it's like gambling mode has hijacked, you know, his thinking in that particular way to just, hey, this is the way we do it. This is the way we're going to solve this problem. But to your point, and I love this because this is what I think people need to recognize more and more.

gambling does not want you to succeed. It wants you to fail. And the fact that you're calling your recovery mode success, that tells you something about gambling. And people, that's what they need, I believe. They need more of what you're saying, you know, like figure out what it is that you're building. Because building long-term wealth is the opposite of gambling. And building kind of the life that you deserve to have like a life that's worth protecting where you're not self-sabotaging because that's what gambling loves to do gambling mode loves to self-sabotage it'll do anything it can to keep you stuck to keep you trap keep you in that invisible prison this is the way to overcome it in part it's about building having that mentality having that mindset and building a life you don't want to escape

from i'm guessing you never want to escape from the life you're living now and i'm guessing that you want to protect it at all costs. And I think that's what keeps me, I would say, tamed in a way, too, you know, looking at my life now and also looking at the stories of someone like Lewis's, where he lost millions of dollars and lost everything and is now rebuilding. Or when you're walking at the casino and you see that old lady, you know, on a breathalyzer or whatever, you know, hitting slots half asleep at the table. You know, you see those people that are just there. Eyes, bug-eyed, just like, you know, I, I, I, We were at the casino a few weeks ago, and there was a woman, you know, getting bottles out of the trash can to go, you know, put those in to recycling or whatever and get the money from that just to place lots.

So I think seeing that and hearing stories on the show of what it could cause helps to keep you tamed. Gambling causes a great level of desperation. I think that that's the defining, you know, if you talk about gambling addiction, I think it's synonymous with desperation. and it's I think it's also because you get into this sense, right? If you have those big wins, and I was asking earlier about this, you had, you know, you went 30,000 and then it came back down and then 25,000. And just give me like another, just a quick number. Is there any number that you had that was even bigger than those wins?

No, I'd say the most I've gone up to is like 35,000. 35, 30, and 25,000. Let me ask you this. Where's the 25,000? Now? Yeah, where is it now? Gone. So wasn't the story like it went back down and then you...

Oh, and then I got it and then that money went to paid someone. This was years ago. Yeah, okay. This is 13, 14 years ago now. So the 25,000, the 30,000, the 35,000, where did all that money go eventually? Just, I guess, into the casino? That's exactly right. And those big wins, here's the thing.

Those big wins are. what sort of shapes the gambling modes full identity. It starts to like, you know, envision, it's always possible. Like, if that happened once or twice or three times, as in your case, I'm sure there's other big wins we can sprinkle in there as well. Like, it can happen anytime. And that's what keeps someone, you know, going. That's what keeps the possibility always alive.

It's like when you start to see, oh, like, that's what the urge is based on. The urge to gamble is based in part. on, hey, I had some winning that got this started and I had some real big winning, at least big to me, meaningful to me, in a psychological way, in an emotional way, that makes me want to keep going. That makes me feel like gambling is financially necessary, emotionally necessary and psychologically necessary. It feels like I need this. And that's when the urge is at its most powerful.

And the reason I ask about those big wins you had was because you can go, ask anybody about their big wins, most people will say they put it back into gambling, it went back into the venues. And if those, and those big wins represent the biggest losses they've had, because then you add that number to then the number you put in after the fact, to try to get to that number again, then you're talking about numbers that are even bigger, because ultimately that when you count it all up, when you look at the whole picture, it's going to be a very large number of losses. Almost everyone that I've worked with,

with everyone that I've ever worked with, has reported to me that when they looked at their gambling across their lifetime, they've lost either tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions, or even tens of millions. I'm not exaggerating. If you add it all up,

just from the people that I've worked with, when we're talking easily in the hundreds of millions. And that's, by the way, that's such a small number compared to so many out there that are unfortunately kind of driving a lot of these industry profits at their own expense because they're looking for something that they believe gambling can deliver for them. But it can't. It can give you a sense of it in the short term, but it takes so much more than it gives. And it really sucks for a lot of people because they're not in the, they're not really in the position to do, to get even. No one's in the position to gamble sustainably in a sense because if the long term is it's going to, it's going to eat at your bottom line. It's going to eat at your bank account. Then who loves giving

away money? I mean, in the short term, for the possibility that you may get it up, it's all fake wins. The reason I call it fake wins is because no matter how big the win, no matter how real it felt, no matter how much that money meant something to you, all it did was create more of a desire to gamble. And that desire gave you a greater loss. And then you add all those losses up, you're dealing with numbers that are just, you never even think of it. And you don't want to face.

You don't want to accept it either. I think that's part of the reason why I could keep going. It's like, I don't want, like, I'm going to, this is going to solve my problem. If I can get it up to this amount, it's going to solve my problem. And maybe you were thinking someone the same things when you were trying to get the business, like trying to figure out, how can we get, we want to make this even better. We want to make this more profitable. We want to pay people sooner.

Gambling can get me there. And this is what it does, though. It's, to me, it's all fake wins because none of it lasts. If you put it all back in, that's not a real win. You don't even treat the money like it's real money. You gamble with it like it's house money. And then because, because you know, because you know inside. like this is, you know, I have a little bit of a little bit of freedom the way that I play with

this, but that freedom is not real freedom. Like I've worked with folks at Incumensal. One of the folks recently shared that his recovery mode, he called it very appropriately, free at last. That's what he called it, because that's genuinely what he felt. As he got to the end of his gambling trajectory, he realized, when I'm in my recovery mode, I'm working on rebuilding my life now, I am free at last. I am out of that invisible prison. I see the fake wins for what they are. And that is shaping my life now. I believe, Ian, all wins in gambling are fake. Whether it's the money, whether it's the feelings, the excitement, the escape, the list goes on. You can go go look at a whole list of different things gambling can seemingly give you all fake.

and the opposite, I believe as well, is real worth because your self-worth, it starts to grow. It doesn't take the hit that gambling constantly, like it gives you a little bit of a boost, but then takes it all the way. It makes you feel so bad as a result. It makes you feel so guilty and regretful, shameful, all of that. It doesn't do that. It allows you to actually have real worth, which is sourced in yourself anyway, that gambling, can't take because you're guiding it because you know you're worth protecting. And it helps

you build your real net worth too. And I'm sure you've seen that to be the case when you look at what happened with your gambling mode and what it did to your net worth. And now you look at what your recovery mode is doing for your net worth. I think success far outweighs survival. I think, too, you also have these other individuals. You know, Dana White's a great example, has millions of dollars, you know, is he really gambling for profit or is he gambling for that feeling at that point? I think that's another subcategory of individuals. You're probably right. There's different categories of folks. And it's like how much is the gambling mode taking over? Funny you mentioned him. I heard a story where he's like,

woke up and he realized he gambled a few million dollars. That's a very famous clip. He said, I'm coming back for that 80 grand. They said, no, Mr. white, you lost three million or something last day. And that's what gambling mode wants, right? It wants to, like gambling mode is ultimately complicit with the gambling industry. That's what it is. Gambling mode wants you to do that and that part of yourself. And you're right.

Even in the case like Dana White or someone else who maybe you look at you say, oh, who can't afford the gamble like that, you think he wants that $3 million back? You think that was worth it for him to have forgotten? He probably said, yeah, of course I want that $3 million. back. Who would want to just piss away three million like that? No. So yeah, I think everyone's got a gambling mode. The question is, does it get activated? The question is, does it take over your life? And then the other question is, because I believe everyone has a recovery mode too. And I believe that it's your recovery mode really has grown into something, I think, very powerful and beautiful.

But your recovery mode, like it, it kind of, it's been building off what was already there before, because you were successful before. And then gambling mode derailed that to some extent and kind of led to some of these other things that you've experienced. But then ultimately, it's allowed you to rebuild in a way that incorporates that whole journey into one. I think that's a very, I think that's a very powerful and beautiful experience that you've had,

how you've leveraged now your gambling mode to do what you're doing. Because I'm sure back in the day when you were kind of doing the double life, right, of the gambling and then of the business, it's like, you're probably thinking, this really can solve the problem. But then now, as you're kind of at a point where you've become one life again, you're kind of really leveraging some of the things that gambling mode can still provide, but in a way that actually does produce success, you know, the sort of skills and abilities and ideas that don't involve continuing to gamble because that ultimately is going to,

that's going to lean to the same faith for everybody. Yeah, I think the differences now, too, is that ability to being able to walk away, whereas before, you know, you're up $10,000, but you owe $500,000 in restitution, how do you leave? You're on a hot streak, you know, how do you walk away to fight another day? That was my mindset, but now I'm very more cautious. And before I make a decision in anything in business and life, I'm kind of thinking, you know, a few steps ahead. And I think prison and that time there gave me that ability. But it was funny

when you mentioned it earlier about, you know, people thinking about becoming professional gamblers. I remember sitting in solitary, drawing out, writing notes saying, all right, if I go at the casino with 500 bucks, three times a week and make 500 bucks, you know, I can make a couple grand a week and that's going to be my full-time job. That was my plan, you know? Gambling modes plan for you. But that was, you know, another case of I didn't have purpose. I didn't have anything. I was literally at rock bottom, you know? And then coming out of prison, I didn't gamble for like three or four years. I did a little sports gambling here, there after those three or four years. And, you know, now I do gambling now, but not to nearly the level it was before. So, you know,

some people actually ask this question. I think you're a great example of it. They say, oh, if someone who's actually gone through like gambling problems, like, can they ever gamble recreationally again? I mean, the answer is yes. The answer is yes. If, if you've had recreational gambling before and for a long time, right? And then you kind of go through the experiences that you had, and then kind of on the other side, you figured out that gambling doesn't have to be your life, that it's just a part of it. And then I think you can go back to that. You're a great example of it. So anyone who's ever asked that question, like, can you go from recreational gambling to problem gambling or addiction back to recreational gambling? You're a good example of that. But

can you then also go from this state that you're in now back to problem gambling and worse? it's possible. Maybe less likely now, but it's possible because what if you went in there and won a few million? What would you? Like Dana Wyatt, like you lost, what if you actually went in and won a few million? Would that start to, maybe gambling mode will start giving you a different message as a result? In fact, what message was gambling mode giving you?

What was the, and actually, let's do this as if you're in, just activate gambling mode for a second. I don't want to stay there too long because then maybe after this you're headed to the casino. I don't want that to happen. But let's go in there just for a moment. And let's act as if we're gambling mode right now, survival in your case. And let's hear the message that was on repeat convincing you, you got to keep going back. What was that message? What is that message even today?

Back then it was, you know, I got to make this money to pay off this bill or this person. So that way, you know, I can keep my business going to allow to pay back everyone. It always went back to making everyone whole at the end of the day because I felt so bad. about losing everyone's money. So I was in that, you know, pit. And I just kept trying to climb. But now present-day gambling mode is not like that at all. It's, you know, I like the feeling of that. I like, I've always been a risk taker. My whole life I've taken risks. But that's the entrepreneurial part. I think more now it's gambling mode is entrepreneurial. I love that. It's fun, you know. It's not nearly is what it was. And to answer your question, if I won four million dollars tomorrow, current gambling,

mode me what is done forever. I don't think I would ever play again. You know, at that point, I would find something else because I get that same feeling of if I'm playing like cards here without money. I just, to me, there's something fun to win in that sense. It's less about the money and more about being able to win, whereas before it was more about the money and less about winning or losing. It was just, I need the money. You know what? I also believe. You tell me if I'm wrong, because again, your life, right? I don't want to misspeak for you. But I, My sense of your experience in gambling, too, was that it was about making people whole again, but also gambling mode was using against you this notion of like, if you don't do it, then you won't be liked.

If you don't do it, then, you know, you're not valid. Like people won't look at you the same way that they've looked at you before. Would you say that that played a role? A hundred percent, but also the same actions made people hate me. Because I'm trying to, like, I look at it from the judge's eyes. Like, he characterized me as, like, a degenerate, like, addict addicted to gambling. But in my eyes, I'm just trying to do the right thing. Yeah.

You know, the actions might not have shown that. But in my heart, it was just to do the right thing. Yeah. If I had won, I wasn't going to go buy a nice car. Yeah. I'm just trying to survive, you know, but I can see what it looks like from the outside, too. 100%. And I'm really glad you're at the place where you are now.

And all the success you've had, you know, congratulations. Thank you. And I would love to do something else that's a bit fun and different and interesting. I would love to actually see if we can embody that recovery mode and kind of play out. And maybe this will really ensure if you did win $4 million on gambling. Maybe this would really ensure you will stop because as soon as I have, heard that I thought, everyone, gambling mode says that all the time. Gambling mode says, once you win the $4 million, that's your retirement. Gambling mode never wants you to retire,

though. Like, it wants to recruit you for the rest of its existence, for the rest of your life. It will even, by the way, gambling addiction and suicide, like suicidal ideation and suicide rates, it's very high. It's so high. It's like, they say it's like the highest among all addictions. It will even use your life. It will make you feel like you want to end your life, but it needs to keep you alive because if you ended your life, you can't keep gambling. So gambling mode will use anything against you. Be like, oh, now, so you don't feel that way, let's gamble so we can gamble our way out of that problem. You won't be feeling that way anymore. You're going to want to end your life. It will feed you any deception, right, to keep going. But in this case,

right, let's, if you did win a few million, maybe, maybe what we're about to do next could help a little bit in ensuring that gambling mode doesn't get recruited again into the existence that I had before. So what I love to do is to trade chairs with you. Okay. This is going to be weird. Have you done this before on the show? No, no. This is this is the first time. So we're going to trade seats, okay? And what you'll be doing is you'll be sitting in the chair that I'm in now. And in this chair, you're going to embody success. You're going to embody your recovery mode. And you're going to give what I call, a message of a message of thanks and a message of goodbye. So thank you and a goodbye.

You're going to give this message that you feel inside of you is appropriate to your survival gambling mode. I thank you and a goodbye. And I'll put this as well. If you want to use some of my language, I love, like I mentioned earlier, this notion of fake wins. If you want to incorporate that somehow into it, I think that that would be a really neat little thing as well. So are you ready to give it a go? Yeah, let's try. All right, let's switch it out. Let's see what happens.

Just be careful of this wire right here. I haven't sat on this side of the room in a while. Okay, so I'll come down here so we can still hear me, right? It feels weird to be on this side. Where's the camera, by the way, on this side? It's just on the guest. Oh, there's no camera. Yeah, yeah. I picked up like soft white underbelly style. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in that case, people can still hear.

We're going to play this out. So it's going to be a fun little exchange between your recovery mode of success and the thank you and the goodbye message that you feel is appropriate to give to your gambling mode of survival. Go ahead when you're ready. I have to talk to myself. Exactly. Exactly. That's the fun part about it. What do I say? What do you feel like? What does your recovery mode feel like saying to your gambling mode? I guess it's, you know, I know what it feels like to be at a place where, you know, you're fighting,

or I know that feeling of what it's like to fight, to get that win and to survive and put everything on the line. and I never want to experience that, I guess, pit in my stomach feeling to survive ever again. And that's what keeps me from getting to that level. So whether it's, you know, being up 500 bucks and walking away at that point, if I were to play right now, I wouldn't get to the point where, you know, say I'm down $100,000 and trying to chase that back because I know what it's like to be at that point in life. And I don't want to experience that feeling again. That's a wonderful message.

Anything else you want to add before we go into the next part? Don't ever come back in my life again. That's the goodbye, right? That's the adios. One more thing. Let's flash this forward into the future. Ten years from now. Future Ian Bick.

I know that sounds weird, but it's a little kind of time travel-esque. Let's really imagine, right, like the trajectory that you're on, where your recovery mode has led you, the freedom that you feel, the life that you've rebuilt, and also the life you're building still, let that continue in your mind and in your heart and your experience for the next 10 years. And just imagine yourself now. You've arrived there. you've actually arrived there in the year 2036. You'll be how old by then, Ian?

2036. 10 years for now, it'll be 41. Wow. So 41-year-old future Ian Bick. And let me know when you're there. Let me know when you feel like you've gotten there in your mind and in your heart. Okay. Perfect.

I'd like you to, let's do something. let's do something even more different. This time you're sitting across not looking at your gambling mode, but this time you're looking at, so we have the future in one side, we have the past in the other side. And that past will be that younger version of you before gambling mode ever took hold.

Little Ian, when he was growing up, very entrepreneurial, already very successful. We know this. We know this. about you, demonstrated that at a young age, liked by many people. Also went through some bullying, too, if I recall. Yeah. So it wasn't, that wasn't comfortable for sure.

But let's give that version of you. Let's give that version of you the reality of your future. I'd like you to actually speak. It's 41-year-old, Ian Bick, future. you to that younger version of you. And what did you call him back then? Ian? Is there another name?

Was there a nickname or something that he had? I mean, the bullies would call me Twinkie. The boys are bullying you? Yeah, for my weight and stuff back when I was a kid. No, I just went by Ian. Yeah, yeah. Let's get that message to Ian, Twinkie. Poor chubs, yeah.

That's not, yeah. Booing's not right. I hate that. Whenever you're ready. I know this is bizarre. You've definitely never done this before. This is a first for the show. But let's see what this all looks like.

I mean, I think life looks very similar to what it is now. Just, you know, older, wiser, you know, not making the same mistakes that I did as a child. I mean, I don't make those same mistakes now. I think feeling more confident, more secure, having more of a foundation, not needing to know what's next and kind of just letting life play its course. I mean, I look at my life even right now, I could do the next 10 years on autopilot just as long as I'm continuously growing and evolving in my field and getting better. I don't think I change from what I'm doing now. I think I'll just be a more sophisticated version of myself, a more mature version of myself 10 years from now.

What was that like to do some time travel? Pretty interesting. I'm kind of excited, but... Good. Let's continue the excitement for one more part. And let's give the message that little Ian here, what did you... What was the name?

I mean, I had the name. I didn't like the name, but it was a twink. Twinkie, yeah. I don't like that, but someone called him. But this guy here, successful already, also went through some bullying. What message does he need to hear from you, both you in your recovery mode as success and also you from the future, which by the way, as you were speaking, I came up with the name that I think represents future you quite.

well, sophistication. I like that. Because you said that, you said, you know, it's a more sophisticated version of who you are now. So you basically go, if you look at the trajectory, you go from gambling mode, survival of the past, to recovery mode, success of the present, to future you sophistication. It's a beautiful arc. But let's take this back one last time to little Ian here. And what message does he need to hear from you?

This is your chance to deliver it to him. I think it's, you know, you don't need to have all the answers right in the moment. All of the problems I've created in my life growing up in my teenage years and my 20s were because I needed the answers right now in the moment. But like we talked about earlier, had I just been talking about, patient and thought a few steps ahead and not needed that win in that moment, then everything wouldn't have been as bad as it got. Amazing. Well done. Thanks for sharing with us. Thank you. We get to switch again. Because to your point, those wins were fake wins. You didn't need the fake

wins. That was fun. I got to have more professionals on the show like this. It's nice switching it up. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Now, before we did that exercise, you were mentioning the correlation between gambling and suicide, why does it get to that point for some individuals? You know, because in a mind, like say mine, I always knew as bad as it got, I could always rebuild. That, you know, even if I was down the worst amount possible, I could figure out a way to rebuild from that and walk away and rebuild. But why do other people not have that mindset? And why do people turn to suicide in that moment? Back at the clinic that I worked at, we'd actually have as part of the assessment process, like, you know, looking at the level of

suicidal ideation per se. And most people answered something along those lines, right? They answered something like I, you know, at some point, either now or before, my mind would go there because I'd be like, I have no other choice. Like, what am I going to do? And that's the thing. it compresses the sense of possibility so much. The fake win just basically dictates that, hey, this is the only way. And then it narrows everything in your life, even your own sense of life experienced to, hey, I'm in complete desperation. How do I get out?

And that's when I think one of the options starts becoming, just end it all. Just end it all then. because you have nothing else. It's not worth it. Your life's not worth it. And I think maybe the difference there for some folks who are feeling that way and yourself was, again, back to your childhood, right? Back to your early life experiences.

It seems to me like you had a strong core foundation of self-worth. Yes, there was some bullying there. But it seems like especially you were looking up to your father and kind of he was a model for, you know, for entrepreneurship. success and and you were able to follow that blueprint and have, you know, quite a bit of success at a young age. And I believe that, you know, when the foundations of self-worth are stronger, I think that it maybe is a little bit more of a shield towards the suicidal ideation. For other people, maybe they went through more vulnerable childhoods and upbringings.

Maybe there was more trauma per se. Maybe there were other things that happened in their life that made them already more vulnerable and susceptible to gambling in a sense for gambling mode to take over and to say, hey, let me give you what you need. Let me give you that sense of, you know, excitement and you're feeling like you're valid. And let me, it's like, and for a lot of people, they're outsourcing their sense of self-worth to gambling. And I hate seeing that because it's like, I only feel like I matter and I'm worse something when I win on gambling.

I hate that feeling because you matter and you're worse something. already. And I mean, it's unfortunate, but it's the reality of the world we live in. Many people have lived through circumstances where others and things that have happened to them have taken away some sense of their self-worth or impacted it severely. And that's when I think you're more likely to feel like, well, it's just not worth it. It's just not worth it. When in reality, you are worth it. What's not worth it is the gambling. That's not worth it. And when you realize that, then you start to realize your real worth because the opposite of fake wins is real worth. What do you think it truly takes for someone to reach that point of wanting to activate recovery mode?

Is it a certain dollar amount? Is it a certain amount of pain? I hate this because my answer to that is keep gambling. I hate that I have to say that. But that's almost universally the case that people, as they keep gambling, they hit. there multiple levels of rock bottom. And I say multiple levels. You think rock bottom is just one, but no, it's several for people. Just go ask Lewis, right? I always mentioned him earlier. Go ask him about his rock bottoms and keep gambling. That's the way to get there. And again,

I hate that I have to give that matter. But if I go ahead and say stop gambling, that's not going to work anyway. It's when people keep gambling and the consequences catch up. And some of those consequences may be legal. Some of them are relational. Some of them are financial. Some of them are emotional. When these things, some of them are even, like you mentioned, you start thinking about ending your life. I've even, I've even met someone who don't know the whole story because it was more of an impassing situation, but their family member killed someone because of gambling. Gambling can even lead to that. I mean, that's in addition to all of those. So we have fraud, we've got embezzlement. We've got robbery.

I've seen that a few times, you know, drug-related offenses and people who have experienced, who have lived experience of incarceration, you know, may have had these offenses in relation to gambling as well. And it can lead to all those things. And then you can even lead to murder too. I mean, it can lead to really any, it can lead to suicide. It can lead to, you know, I hate that has to get bad for someone before it gets better. But gambling mode has a way of just keeping everything so narrow and recovery mode is about expanding that. But how do you activate and trigger it? Is it enough for me to just say, hey, if you're listening to this and you need help, you know, that's what I do. That's what I, a lot of people I work with, we're in this space. We're trying to

help people. We believe in you. Cameling industry doesn't believe in you. They're using you. I mean, does me saying this, does this then spark people to say, let me go work in my recovery now. If it did, it would be too easy. But it's not because gambling mode has a way of saying, no, no, no, no, just got to keep going. This is the answer to all the problems. So if gambling mind has to say, keep going, I'm going to say the same thing. Keep going. Don't take this the wrong way, but what I mean is if you keep going, consequences are going to catch up if they haven't already. And when you're already, reach out to me. When you're ready, reach out to anyone who's in this space, who's really trying to help people.

Like I said, I believe in real recovery. That's what it's about. And I believe that you're a great example of it. Even though your story, I know you haven't framed it as I had a gambling addiction or a gambling problem. But then when I realized, as I was going through your story, I was like, oh, he and big did. Like, he had gambling mode was in his life and it took over for a period of time. And it even led to some of the other legal consequences in his life. That is kind of the foundation of this platform now.

So in a funny weird way, gambling mode has something to do with why you're sitting here now. And it's impacting many people in different ways. And I hate that it's happening, but it is happening. I'm doing the best that I can. And there are many other people out there who are also working very hard to try to get the support in the people's hands to help with their recovery. What do you say to the individuals that bail out a loved one or a friend when they're deep in their gambling addiction? You know, maybe they help them with money for, say, rent or they give them money to pay a bill or a creditor or a bookie or something. We hear about that all the time.

A lot of situations that money ends up being gambled anyway. So that's the risk. And then some people call that enabling and some people say, you should never do that and that's not the right way. And, you know, ultimately, I think that everyone's got their journey that they sort of go through. So I'm not here to prescribe. You have to do this. You can't do that. Like the best thing to do would, don't even ask me, go ask AI.

Like, you know, just say like, go AI, type that same question in and be like, what's the best approach? AI will give you a better answer than me. Because my answer is, you know, you're going to live through things. You're going to learn from things. And if I tell you what to do or don't do, you're not going to learn from it the same way. So you kind of have to go through that yourself to figure out what works, what doesn't work in a sense. But as a whole, if that money in one form or another that you're using to try to bell someone out, if it ends up being gambled anyway, because they're like, oh, gambling mode says,

oh, let me go and gamble this money. We'll turn it in. And then we can pay, then we have free money. We can pay this back and we can pay that back too. That's what you're dealing with. That's the risk. Even if someone says, no, even if you're doing it for someone, I mean, I think you're just, in a sense, you're kind of just delaying, you know, delaying the inevitable.

So, but again, go look, you know, go search on AI because I don't want you to, you know, I just hate prescribing things to do for people. I love when people just live, you know, out their journeys because everyone's on a journey in life and it's about kind of figuring that on your own, figuring it out with other people and using the tools that you can get access to and figuring out how to build the life that you deserve. And that goes to the loved ones too. By the way, you're asking this question.

It made me think of something else. Like they used to say in the research, more of the outdated research, that for everyone who's experiencing a gambling problem, it's affecting six other people. life. I recently heard it's affecting more like eight to ten people in their life. I wouldn't be surprised if that number keeps going up because it doesn't just affect you, even if you're keeping it secret. And when the consequences catch up, it blows everything up like marriages, right? Families, kids, you know, finances, how, you know, you lose houses, you know, the amount of debts that people get in. Lewis, right? How much debt is he in now because of gambling that he's, he's,

he's rebuilding from. And that's almost a universal thing. You know, gambling mode loves debt. Because get more money, try to solve the problem. Problem gets worse. More debt. Keep that cycle up. Again, problem feels like the solution. That's the problem. Well, Michael, I appreciate you coming on the show today. This was a fascinating episode. And it means a lot for you to take the time to sit here. Thanks so much for having me, Ian.