Locked In with Ian Bick - Inmate Reveals Why Prison Wasn't As Bad As He Expected | Jeff Santucci

Episode Date: May 21, 2024

Jeff Santucci, a former inmate, shares his surprising perspective on life behind bars. Contrary to popular belief, Jeff reveals why his prison experience wasn't as harrowing as he had anticipated. From the unexpected camaraderie among inmates to the various educational and rehabilitation programs available, Jeff sheds light on the lesser-known aspects of prison life. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Jeff Santucci: https://www.instagram.com/lincolnschoolplan?igsh=YnI5eGhhYTQ5N2Vk https://www.instagram.com/jeffsaint___?igsh=MTc1b2ZlYTFsYmltaw== Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:18 - The Impact of Childhood on Career Choices and Mental Health 00:09:04 - Teenage Rebellion 00:13:22 - The Influence of Parents 00:17:32 - Arrest and Accusation 00:21:57 - The Plea Deal 00:26:36 - The Raid on the House 00:31:11 - A Unique Prison Experience. 00:35:58 - Surprising Camaraderie in Prison 00:40:22 - A Day in Prison 00:44:27 - Bad Experience 00:48:52 - Unexpected Reunion 00:53:11 - Leaving the Door Open for Unexpected Opportunities 00:57:43 - Renovating a School for Underprivileged Students 01:02:35 - The Impact of Philanthropy and Reflection on Personal Growth 01:06:58 - Following Your Dreams 01:10:48 - The Importance of Asking Questions Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Ad not reviewed or approved by Novo Nordisk. We both got finished with court. I'm sitting down at the picnic table. He slides up next to me and he says, you remember that you did? And I was like, no. But right there, I knew something bad was going to happen. And then he immediately starts hitting me.

We start fighting. I slam him on the ground, get on top to hit him, and I get kicked. And then I'm getting the beat out of me by two people. I didn't expect it. What's up, guys? And welcome back to the Lockton with Ian Bick podcast. I am here at the Lockton.

Locked in studio. I have yet again changed up my backdrop. You can see I got a curtain behind me, a new curtain. I put this nice black rug in on the floor. I got these nice red pillows behind me, changed up the lighting, changed up the camera angles. And I am super excited to get back into recording. I've had the last couple weeks off and I've been doing some traveling and I'm, it's good to be back in the studio and getting into some more locked in. On that note, we have an exciting episode here for you today. We have Jeff Santucci here to share how he ended up committing an unintentional robbery. This is an exciting episode filled with twists and turns, and I'm super excited to share it with you guys today. Thank you, everyone,

from the bottom of my heart, for all the support you give to this show week after week. I see you guys messaging me. I see you guys commenting, and I see you guys leaving a review. and because of all that, we're going to be offering a huge giveaway, giving away Amazon gift cards. We're going to be giving away AirPods, some really cool merch from Chevy Chase, and a couple other novelties that we've collected along the way from our encounters and some other stuff that some of our sponsors have provided. Look out for that in the next couple of weeks. Make sure you're following me on my Instagram, Ian underscore Bick, and we'll have the details coming out soon about how you can enter into that giveaway.

Now, without further ado, sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with Jeff Santucci. Jeff, welcome to locked in, man. Thanks. Thanks for coming all the way from Chicago. You drove here. Yeah. Yeah, it was quite a drive, 14, 15 hours. Straight, or did you stop?

Just for gas. Just for gas. How many gas trips do you have to do? I only had to do two. I rented a car. But, yeah, drives like these. I love it. I love driving across the country.

I was driving down to Austin back and forth a couple times right at the end of last year. I drove out to Montana and back. I love long drives. Just, yeah. What's Montana like? Oh, it's beautiful. It's got the scenery and everything. Yeah, yeah.

And it was in April, too. So there was just things starting to bloom, but also. Still snow coming down. That's a very, very interesting town. So you have a, you're here today. You reached out and you have an interesting perspective about prison because unlike most people, you said you actually enjoyed it. Yeah.

Like it was fun, but it also gave you insight to what kind of your purposes now and what your mission is now and how we had a conversation about how it kind of led you to hear and what you want to do with the rest of your life. Yeah. And the perspective part comes from how I ended up in prison. You know, it's definitely not the average way that someone ends up in prison. When I was 19, I had a general sense that nothing was going to go right. That opportunities for me were kind of choked off,

that the things that we're seeing today in society are, were already in place. There were a lot of, I had a lot of, this is the end kind of thoughts. But as far as opportunity, I knew I wasn't going to get a job anywhere that was going to be, you know,

sufficient to do anything. And it's because I didn't go to college, but I didn't want to go to college because that felt like a scam, even back then. Did you grow up in Chicago? Southside, yeah. South suburbs.

Two parents, siblings? They split when I was five. And, you know, I was the oldest. So I was the go between. Was that tough on you? Yeah, but I grew up fast. It was just, you know, it's everybody's story. So it's not really unique, but...

It's still important. Just because it's not unique in that sense, it's still important. an important part of your childhood. Have you ever thought about how it might have shaped your thinking in later years? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because how fast I had to grow up.

Do you think if you didn't have to grow up fast, life would be different? Yeah, probably. But, again, I'm happy where I landed. I definitely danced. I appreciate you bailing me out right there because I was definitely dancing around the topic. It's tough to talk about even now. Do you have like happy childhood memories at all? Oh, yeah.

I had a great life. My life has been positive the entire time. But I didn't, I got hung up on not seeing a way forward for anyone to the point that I just didn't want to be here anymore. And a lot of that comes from the prescriptions that I was on. And I know that. And I didn't know that before because, you know, I had a doctor. And I thought he was looking out for me. So when I was 19 in November, I had saved up all my prescriptions and took them all one night,

texted everybody I love, you know, told him I love them, and wrote a note, you know, pinned it to the top of the stairs, told me telling my sister not to come downstairs, just case and uh and i was ready to go and then i woke up the next day kind of covered in cash and a friend of mine texted me a huffington post story about about three gas stations or convenience stores getting robbed in the middle of night and i was like there's there was a way because that's what happened so that was you in the art was there a picture of you no no No, there was nothing. So he just texted you randomly saying, hey, did you see this?

Oh, she texted you. Yeah, she sent it to me because she, everyone was worried about me after they got the text because everybody got an I love you text, literally everyone. And I think she just kind of knew, you know, and that's what put it together for me. And I didn't know what to do. but I was still, I mean, I was as obliterated as you could be for the next week. I barely have any memory. But the next day, I know my friends came to pick me up and they threw a whole party just to cheer me up.

I think everybody thought, I don't know what everybody thought, but there was that compounded because I went to the party and started drinking. So then it was a darker blackout, but I got arrested about a week later, and they showed me pictures and videos and stuff like that. And I gave a confession because, number one, I didn't know better. But number two, I mean, I was high as hell on, you know, all types of... Why were you on the prescription drugs to begin with leading up into that point in your teenage years? They kind of compounded, I think. I'm not really sure what led to him because a mom didn't like to have diagnosis on insurance information. So it would just be, you know, whatever it is, just giving the prescription, we'll say this.

For like depression or for a physical pain? All kinds of stuff. I was on a prescription for Adderall from my pediatrician. for weight loss. Adderall does weight loss? Yeah, it's amphetamine. I didn't realize that. So you're on all these prescriptions and you're just going with the flow during your teenage years?

I mean, I started to get bad. I was always a bad kid. I don't want to preface that wrong. But I was always just anti-authoritarian. Same. Yeah. You know, that's probably how we ended up here. Yeah.

Most kids, I think, are anti-authoritarian. Yeah, that's fair. You really got to be indoctrinated into just doing what you're told. Yeah. But, you know, I was kind of a bad kid, and I think the drugs were probably to see if they could regulate me in some way. But I think that I don't want to disparage the doctor at all because it was the 90s. Nobody knew what was going on. Well, it wasn't the 90s.

It was 2000s. You know, I took the drugs either way. Would you do the same for your kids now, knowing the experience? Yeah. But that's just because, you know, we're living in the now. We're living post-COVID. So, you know, we know that money rules all these things a little bit more than ethics, which is a problem. But with that, you know, I was on, I was on.

So the drugs that I took were colonnipine, L. Crasalam, Cologne, Alanadine, Ambien. I think that's it for the, oh, no, no, no. I had just, I'd burn my hand off at the last job that I had. I was working in a kitchen, spilled oil, emergency room, whatever. But, you know, I got a prescription for a painkiller. And I can't remember which one, but it was a kind of painkiller. and I just decided, you know what, send it.

It's not going to get better. You know, I knew that news agencies were indoctrinated. I was a big fan of Aaron Sorkin shows, and he had just put out the newsroom. And that was kind of a last straw, I think, was realizing that there's no way to get even accurate information. So I just kind of didn't want to exist here anymore because I didn't see a way for us to get out.

How would your friends describe you in high school if they were here? Weird. Weird. Yeah. You felt like an outcast? No, no, no. Not that I felt like an outcast. I felt like everybody loved me.

But I was... So you're okay with yourself? Yeah, but I definitely had big homeschool energy. Big homeschool energy? Yeah. Did you have like aspirations of what you wanted to do? No. Nothing.

You just felt like lost? Well, because there's... I really didn't see a path forward. I grew up in a different neighborhood than I went to... high school and I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood but it wasn't like a like a bad neighborhood it wasn't economically depressed neighborhood it was just a black suburb and I moved out of there in sixth grade maybe but the standardized test that you got to take in Illinois I I aced a math and nothing happened nothing positive happened for me and I remember going like why

why would I even put this effort in if there's no positive outcome for me and so like my fifth grade year I knew that you know I was moving I remember not even I remember saying to teachers like I'm why would I try I'm leaving um and I don't necessarily I don't know where that came from but I remember feeling that for a long time like it doesn't it doesn't matter if I do good because there's no purpose and and I know that carried over I never really expected to be alive this long

do you think your parents kind of gave you that energy like that energy has to come from somewhere right I think that one of the things that probably saved me this long is the exact opposite energy I got from my mom my mom was very you know just love and help people my dad's the same way they're both they're both

you know, help the next person as much as you can. And I think that, I think it's really just how I intrinsically viewed the world as a kid. And obviously probably, you know, being willing to make irrational decisions. Do you think they saw that an accident by, or by helping you, they accidentally caused more harm? Probably. Probably. But. I think anybody.

tell. Yeah, I think anybody would have done that, especially then. No, not to put blame on them. Just, you know, seeing how, you know, it's, sometimes people just think, oh, medicine solves everything. Depression, okay, here's a pill. Like, sometimes it's more than that. Yeah. And maybe in your case, you could have, there could have been another alternative. Yeah. Not that it was known at the time, but looking back on it now. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So 19 years old, you take all these pills at night and your friends throw you a party. We're almost halfway through the year, and a lot of people are running on empty without fully realizing it. Grow therapy helps you find care that's covered by insurance before burnout becomes the baseline. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the U.S.,

offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0.com slash book now to get started. That's growth therapy.com slash book now.

Growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. So you're running out of closet space. The good news, you don't need to stop shopping. You just need to start selling with the Real Real. The Real Real is the world's largest and most trusted resource for authenticated luxury resale, whether it's that mini bag that can't even fit your phone or those boots you never fully broken. The Real Real handles everything, from photography and copywriting to shipping and pricing. So you can just sit back, get paid, and make room for things that actually feel like you. And with 10,000 plus new arrivals every single day from top designers like Prada, Celine, Louis Vuitton, and Louéé all for up to 90% off retail, you're bound to find

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Just my one friend that sent me the article, but they just kind of, I think they were just trying to do whatever they could to help. So their response to getting those text messages. Was like, we have to cheer him up. I think they thought that, you know, maybe it was like a fake attempt. Was that a right response, though? I think it would have, like, had it been a fake attempt? No, like they're the party aspect of it.

Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, that didn't really have any bearing on me going to jail. but it was that that was you know they what can we do how can we help and I think that was to just cheer me up and I really appreciate it but uh but I was I think it compounded my thinking for the rest of the week because you know I still had those drugs in my system and they couldn't have known that but I did and I think that I was hoping that something bad would have happened because I I still didn't want to be there. I still didn't want to be here.

And then, you know, once I got to jail and could kind of level my head, I realized that I wasn't going to try because that's even worse. I made that mistake right when I got there. In intake, you know, they asked you all the questions. And when they got to suicide, you know, I immediately, yeah, right now, what are you talking about? And you got on the radio, we got one for medical. And next thing you know, I'm in a red, red jumpsuit, and then I'm naked, and I'm in a cell, and I'm wearing a paper towel for three days.

And, you know, hot female guards just standing outside of a windowed cell looking at me in a 65-degree cell. That wasn't cool. But after that three days, I was like, okay, so we're not going to do that because that sucked. And then... Yeah, they kind of pocket. you for having mental illness in prison. You don't want it.

You could go in with mental health struggles, and it just turns into a punishment. Well, even that, I mean, that's the standard reaction is, you know, oh, this person said they're going to kill themselves. Put them in a, you know, padded room with nothing. Not even clothes. That's, I mean. Yeah, it's inhumane.

Why not give the person a genuine help? Right. So when the cops came to you, what are they saying to you? when they figured out or however they put the pieces together to figure out that you were the one that robbed these three gas stations what evidence do they lay out against you?

I mean, I don't really I remember looking at pictures but that's kind of a blank for me. They picked me up a buddy of mine had a car that the gas gauge didn't work

and he would run out of gas all the time. I'm serious. It was a nightmare. And he called me one night and he's like, hey, I ran out. I'm over on this road. All right, I'll be there in a minute. Drove over to pick him up. And I remember seeing this car, gold Malibu with an Indiana plate.

And it just stuck in my head for some reason. I got over to pick him up and that car comes behind me with lights out of nowhere. Gold Chevy Malibu with Indiana plays. And it was a cop car. and it was running, you know, outside of my house. I was really upset with myself that I didn't put two and two together on that one. But they got out, guns drawn, you know. They dragged them out of the car, dragged me out of the car.

And apparently somebody told somebody, you know, they think it might have been me, and that somebody told the cops. And it is what it is. I appreciate it. It's probably one of the best things that ever had. happened to me because, you know, if I would have been out, even if I would have made bond, I'd be dead, you know. It was the fact that I couldn't kill myself and the fact that I got to an age where I'm not going to make an irrational decision and I can see a path forward to helping

people that, you know, maybe changing the world a little bit from what it is. Were you in disbelief when they're saying that you robbed three gas stations? Because you came from a good family. I, uh, I wasn't. I, it seemed like, you know, blacked out, especially because some of them were benzodiazepine, that, you know, anything's within, I'm just, I was just happy that nobody was dead, to be honest, um, happy that nobody got hurt. Uh, and I was trying, I was doing my best to alleviate the situation, help as much as I could.

and try to take as little punishment for, you know, for what happened as possible. Did they say how you pulled off the robberies? No. They never told you. Nope. They're just sitting you down saying, hey, man, you were off three gas stations and we got you. Yeah. And then, I mean, I do remember, like, seeing pictures, but just kind of of me, like, moving.

in, you know, whatever ways. I had, like, a hat on in one, and they had it. Like, I guess I wore a hat into the gas station and then running out of the gas station knocked it off. And they were like, we got the hat and DNA, and I was like, okay. And, you know, but there's, they were like, is this your car? Did you drive that car to do it? And I'm like, what do you mean?

You don't know? Like, I remember some things, right? but just bits and pieces and that's the worst part is is being is not knowing how I got there like I know that it happened I know that you know that it happened clearly a series of of things and it ended with me being in a fourth gas station just taking my shirt off and like sitting at their table until the employee like told me you got to go and that's actually how they connected it to me was after the three got robbed, I guess,

they went around and were warning other gas stations in the area and that guy was like, hey, something weird happened. You might want to look at this. But even in jail and in prison, I didn't get to see my discovery. I have no idea what evidence they had against me. Was that because you pled guilty right away?

No, I didn't plead guilty right away. I ended up pleading guilty because, you know, I took a plea deal, but, but Will County's weird. I never got to see my discovery. I didn't even know if they found the gun. It was a BB gun. You used a BB gun to rob these places. Oh, yeah.

And it's like half open too. Like it's, you could tell. But that's not on them. I would have been, I would have been, I would have complied in the same had I been one of those store workers, you know? But I do remember bringing them to the place that I threw it. I threw it into a pond, you know, the next day when I realized. And I remember bringing them to it, but I don't even know if they found it, which sucks,

because I got charged with it. And I couldn't really, I couldn't even take a blind plea. Without the gun, the charge would have been aggravated robbery, which would have been a class one felony in Illinois. So I could have gotten intensive probation or another option available to the class one felons. But it was a class X because it was considered a firearm. robbered like an armed robbery and there was

there was no way that I couldn't that I could prove that it wasn't without the gun and they didn't have a gun to put a gun charge on me so I couldn't even plead guilty to a regular arm robbery

like you know open plea and let the judge assign a penalty because they had had a gun charge on there without a gun. So instead of a six to 30, it was a 21 to 45. That sucked. It did.

Because I kept, I asked so many times, I will plead right now, can it just be what it's supposed to be, an aggravated robbery, whatever the judge wants? Yeah, okay. But let me, let me be charged with my crime. I wrote to the head of the felony division for Will County. Mike Fitzgerald at the time. And he still, it was upsetting that there was no way forward. Do they give you a public defender?

They did. Wasn't good? I knew better. I at least knew that much that somebody like that's going to be so overwhelmed that they're not even going to have the time to look into a case. But do you think that not trust in? the public defender hurt you? No.

Everybody knows. It's a public pretender. That's not, that's somebody who's there to do a job and they're going to do it as best as they can, but they're going to do it, you know, Monday through Friday, 9 to 5. I think there are some, I used to have that mindset and I've met some who have changed my opinion on that.

Really? We actually had a couple on the show. We had Thomas Leaf, he was a public defender on the show. But they're one in a dozen. You know, I think that would be the way. And on the state level, but you do see some that are just, that are great. I also, that's, you make a really good point. And I don't want to disparage public defenders.

But they're fighting such an insurmountable task, you know. So it's, it's understandable that it wears on you. And that some things become routine as opposed to receiving the care that, you know, you would hope that they do. So I'm not mad about that. I did end up getting a lawyer. A paid lawyer? Yeah.

Thankful to my dad. He did that. How did your parents feel about this when they found out? Because you never got out of jail when you got arrested. So what's that conversation like with them? Well, my dad learned before anybody because right after they arrested me, they kicked the door in. I mean, they didn't actually. kicked the door in um but they came and and raided the house and they took you know bags of of

stuff and I don't know what they took he doesn't know what they took um nobody knows what they took so he knew immediately something was going on um when I called from jail later I think the next day or something um we were able to just square that away, but he was pretty upset. My mom was shocked. But she didn't really, she didn't really understand anything that was going on. I think he had a reasonable understanding

of what might have happened. But he did. He was incredibly supportive the entire time, which was awesome. How long did the legal process take for you before you pled guilty? About 15 months. 15 months.

And what, they just have you in some crap county jail? Oh, yeah. You know, there's rumors on the street. You hear some bad things about Chicago County jails. Well, this is, this was Will County Jail. And it was just a, you don't see the sun. Like, you don't ever see the sun. And it was built that way.

It best exemplifies what chaos theory was meant to do. Like, it breaks your spirit because of the, way that they alleviate you of the little bit that you have. It was really, really a case study in breaking will through psychology.

They've perfected it. They're really good at it. Jail was the worst part of the entire process. And I think it was meant to be that way. Do you think that helped you come to the decision to plead guilty? Yeah.

I think that's how a lot of people end up pleading guilty, especially just willing to, yeah, let me just take the time and get out of here because this sucks and that will be better. That's, I think, I think that's the purpose of. All right, class, settle down. Today's lesson is on the Argo Rewards app. Try to stay with me. The fundamentals are simple. Earn at least five cents a gallon in rewards, then redeem them later for up to a dollar off every gallon. Now here's where it gets complicated.

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Yeah. Like the whole system in general in that regard. That's how these prosecutors have 95 plus percent clearance rates. Yeah. That's insane. I would love to see the stats of the people who plead guilty when they're in jail and no bail versus the people that plead guilty and go to trial that got bail. What those stats look like for federal and state. I think that would be fascinating to see.

I would also love to see that. There was a movie about that and it kind of got buried. a Denzel Washington movie, Roman J. Israel Esquire. Oh, yeah, that came out a few years ago, right? Yeah, and that's what it was about. He was building a case about the plea deal process and how it's just been implemented to make this a fast track to clear up a system.

But really, and you're just, you know, if you have a class four felony charge and it's, you could plead now. and do 61 days because of a good time, or you could sit for the next six months while your public defender cycles through all that. Yeah, of course, you're going to take the plea deal, but then you have a felony,

and then you're stuck in the system. Yeah. So that's something that definitely needs to be changed, but... I didn't realize that what that movie was about. I got to watch that. Do? It's a good one. I love Denzo. Yeah.

One of my all-time favorite actors. Did you watch an Equalizer series? Oh, yeah. Yeah, the newest one is good, too. That was a lot of action. Three or four? Three, I think. Three, and the final one, that's where the daughter of his old handler at the CIA is involved in it.

Okay. Like, she's working a case with him. Oh. Yeah, really good series. I haven't seen the remake, though, for the Equalizer. I guess there's a show. Yeah, there's a show. I think it's with a woman, though.

I forgot. Yeah, I think it did. is with a woman with a what's her name I forgot the actress Queen Latifah I want to say I don't know No maybe it's not Queen Latif

I don't know I would watch the shit out of Queen Latifah as the equalizing Maybe I got to search it up Yeah that that's crazy So you get you end up taking a plea deal What was a plea deal for

15 years at 50% Which is seven Yeah seven and a half In Illinois there are structured, I think there are four, 50%, 75%, 85%, 80%, 100%. And that dictates what good time you can and can't get. But as a class X offender, I couldn't get good time when my prison sentence started. So I was just going to be gone for seven and a half years.

And that was the best that they could be done. During the process, I changed judges because my judge, the head judge of the county quit being a judge to open up a recreational weed or a medical weed facility. And then my lawyer got brain cancer twice. Wow. So, yeah. So it was a hell of a process. And I couldn't get them to budge off 15.

Couldn't get them to budge from the gun. Couldn't get them to budge from anything. So, okay. Let's go. And then I went to prison. And it was just kind of smooth sailing from there. Yeah, I'm interested about your prison experience because you've expressed, you know, on email and hear that it was very different from others. Tell us about your prison experience.

So right away, intake was faster than anyone has ever told me. They've gotten out of intake, which is great. me. I'm really, really excited about that. I'm really happy that I didn't have to sit in NRC for very long. But I went right to a prison called Dixon, and it's a special prison. It's a combination prison. So they have a medium side, minimum side, and a supermax side. That's also the mental health prison, if you will. And I went straight there. I went straight into a minimum. I was in like a 10-man cell that was in a building this building's insane there's no way it's still open um there were 170 of us on the deck but i was in a 10 man there was a five man next door a two man next to that

a three man a seven man it was one of the weirdest layouts i've ever seen but it it used to be a pregnant women's dorm. So that was, it was nice. We were in a dorm. Our door didn't lock. We had hot and cold water in the shower, like actual knobs. You know, it was the best.

And that's part of what made the whole experience posit. Like, I didn't, I don't have really bad memories. We got, we had somebody escape from the building in the middle of the night, break into commissary, make four trips back and forth,

before they, cut themselves on the window they broke into and left a trail of blood back to the building. And Orange Crush shook us down. And we were making jokes the entire time. It was, it's, I am really thankful that I didn't have to have the experience that a lot of people had. Because I just found a group of dudes and we kind of hung out. What kind of guys were there? Like, what were their charges?

Oh, man. It was, there were all kinds. There were people that had done 20 years for murder, and, you know, they were at the end of their bit. One of the guys I was on the deck with actually got exonerated after 20 years. That was cool to see. I worked inside grounds with him. I was on the deck with a Black Panther who had been gone for about 50. And he, man, he had some incredible stories.

But, yeah, we were all just, it was, it was a very, It was a very hodgepodge unit. And how are they treating you? Pretty much like they treated everybody else. It was, that was another thing that I didn't expect. There wasn't an animosity there. And I think it's because of the openness that we had. I mean, you know, there were 85 guys per wing and all the doors are open.

Anybody had access to anybody at any time, even in the middle of the night, because there are only dorm-style bathrooms. So there wasn't a lot of animosity toward anyone. It was all just kind of hanging out. So what was your expectation going into it? You know, movies and TV, what I had seen. That's what you thought. Yeah, man.

You know, when I got off, when I got to the unit, one of the porters, he looked at me out, you know, he's a good friend of mine to this day. He'd done 20 years. And he looked at me and he's like, don't worry, you're going to be all right. He could see it on my face. I was terrified. So I had no idea what I was stepping into. And, you know, we got down to myself walking down the hallway. There are guys cutting hair in the cut.

There are guys working out in the cut. Everybody's just hanging out. And I'm shocked. This isn't what I thought this was going to be. And it was a fucking blast. And you were 19 at the time, or probably 20 now because you would. I think I had gotten. to 21 but yeah.

Were you one of the youngest in this unit? Yeah, yeah. How did you look? Did you have facial hair? Did you have the long hair? I think I had like a wispy little chin like shit stain. But that's, uh, that's about it. Um, I didn't have long hair.

I had shaved my head off, um, right before I went. Because I didn't know how long I was going to be in an RC, you know, receiving. Um, but I started growing the hair out there because I could. No. Do you think that that dynamic and what you experienced there worked and wasn't a bad time because of the way it was laid out and the way it was structured, like the openness? Definitely, definitely. Not ever feeling trapped. We were technically on the second floor and we're right next to the fence so we could see this beautiful clearing.

We saw animals every day. you know, we had five, I'm not getting either, five roll-up windows, like three, four panels and two, five-panel, big, giant roll-up windows. Because this wasn't built to be a prison unit. It was built for pregnant women. And, you know, the views, the camaraderie, the freedom, I think all played an essential role. and where I am now because I know there's a better way of doing this. I'm very aware and I've seen it.

No, you're very fascinated from what I've gathered so far about you and others' people's stories where they've came from kind of like their psychology. Yeah, absolutely. I feel like prison's a big way to harbor that because all you can do is talk and associate with people from all walks of life. And you have that, you know, not just the people you grew up with,

but all these different figures. I'm sure you had some pretty interesting conversations. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was such a wide berth of people that I would never have interacted with otherwise. And it gave me a way to watch people without being an observer, you know. When you're an observer, you fuck up whatever you're watching. when it notices that you're watching it's over with.

But there, I could just kind of study people and, you know, look at interaction. I've always been a big fan of psychology. I love, you know, micro expressions and the intricacies of interpersonal communication. And to get to watch it, to get to really observe it in almost a natural way, almost a natural way. that's that was very cool and I'm very appreciative of that and again the freedom of the building allowed me to interact with so many more people all day right I'm you're not supposed to but is anybody really going to notice if you from your 10 man cell or in a 12 man cell no you know and that allowed you to interact with so many more people do so many more things what was a typical

day like for you Like how would you bid? How would you spend your time? Well, I mean, every day was a little bit different. But the fastest time moving was when I had a job. I was working in maintenance. Get up 5.45, 6 o'clock. You know, make some coffee.

Go right outside of the cell, end of the cut, do some working out. Do some just calisthenics. Walk over into the bathroom, take a shower. come back in, have some oatmeal, and by then it's like 7.30 counts clearing, 8 o'clock, counts clearing, and go right to work, spend the day working, come back, hit a yard or a gym, and TV, you know, cutthroat, spades, whatever. I love spades. Yeah.

It's, can you play spades? Yeah, I haven't played in years. Neither have I. Yeah. It's one of those things that you learn. It's unique. Nobody else knows how to play. and dice four or five six

I never learned how to play dice Salo yeah right after I got to the to the building they were shooting dice like I said there was a cut right outside of the cell and they were shooting dice and police came in that back door

you know and grabbed them caught them caught him in the act took a bunch of guys to seg and I wanted to learn how to play dice but right then I was like oh it's too easy to get caught and I just didn't play but we had gambling the guy that got caught breaking out of breaking out of the building and breaking into commissary, he was down like $1,500 on the poker table.

Oh, wow. Oh, yeah. They used to gamble like crazy. Yeah, big gambling goes on in prison. Yeah. I remember walking into some rooms and people would be like, yeah, that guy owes a few grand here. This guy owes, like, people would rack up,

because that's a problem with prison and the politics of it. You could rack up a tab fast because no one actually has the money. There's no, like, show proof of funds, anything. You could sit down at your words, everything. So you sit down at your words, everything. So you sit down at a table brand new, you could rack up a $20,000 tab. That was, yeah. It was, it got intense.

Seeing guys just trade Western, like trade Western unions. That was. That was the system in there for Commissary Money Western Union. Yeah, I mean, J-Pay, Western Union, you know. Yeah, we had J-Pay too, I think. Yeah. Or a spin-off of it for the feds. Were there federal guys being held there or at the county you were at before?

Or is it just? I don't think so. I don't think there were any fed guys. at the county. I know Cook County is huge for federal guys to be there too. And I never met any fed guys in a stadium. They do a number system that starts with a letter. And they have a specific one for fed guys.

I don't think I ever ran into one of those. I think it's H. What was your uniform? Blue shirt, blue twill pants, black shoes. Like the jeans? They look like jeans a little bit. They're like, yeah. They actually look a lot more like slacks.

It looked less like a prison like jumpsuit and more like a suit. Like the blue shirt looked like a suit shirt. There were guys that had, you know, they kept their good visiting clothes under their bed. And there were guys that looked like, you know, they had an actual suit. It was impressive. Now the medication you were on before you went into prison, did that carry over into prison? No. Do you think that helped?

Definitely. I know that, you know, being clear and being able to see and understand definitely help, but it was also like just avoiding being punished again, you know. Like, I'm not going to make any attempt to kill, you know, to kill myself after what they did. After I got out of suicide watch, you know, I had to do two weeks of, uh, uh, uh, I don't know, you're a dangerous person, kind of. And they put me in a cell, standard cell size, without a bunk bed, and my cellmate had AIDS. And we didn't have, like, we had a boat on the floor.

What do you mean a boat? Like a plastic tub to sleep in. For him? For one of us. How do you know he had AIDS? He told me. Just casually, hey, I have AIDS? Yeah.

How'd that make you feel? Terrified. But that was, and we were both, like, we were both unclothed. We're both in, they're not really jumpsuits, but it's like a pad suit. A turtle suit. Yes. That's what they called. Okay.

We're both in turtle suits. And, you know, we're sitting, we don't have, we literally don't have another thing to do because we can't have anything in the cell. So we're talking. He's homeless and he's got AIDS. And I'm like, this is fucking terrifying. I'm never going to fuck around with them ever. again. And I didn't. You know, they

scared the shit out of me with that first time. So I didn't make any more funny jokes when they were asking questions, but definitely being off the medication. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile, the message for

everyone paying big wireless way too much. Please for the love of everything good in this world, stop. With Mint, you can get premium wireless for just $15 a month. Of course, if you enjoy overpaying, no judgments, but that's weird. Okay, one judgment. Anyway, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three-month plan, equivalent to $15 per month required.

Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Was enlightening. A big hell. Yeah. Yeah. So out of the seven, you got the 15-year sentence.

you end up doing how much 7 and a half? 6 and a half. 6 and a half. Like maybe 2018. I'm not really sure when the law got passed, but somewhere along my bit, a law got passed that allowed me as an ex-fowland

to get good time because my sentence was at 50% day for day. And I was able to earn a year of good time after I got to Kiwani, which was the last person. I went to, the third person I went to. And I got there with exactly three years to go. And every day at Kiwani, you earned a half, excuse me, you earned a half day a good time because of the program and how it was set up.

I was really, I was extremely lucky to get there. And I'm really thankful that I did because that's the only way that I was going to earn that year. And you had a good experience there too. Yeah. So you didn't have one bad experience in prison. I had one. Oh my God.

This is insane. So last week, I told you that I felt like I was meant to be here, right? Last week, I was fixing up my car, you know, trying to make it good enough to make the run out here. And I wasn't going to be able to do it in time. And I'd also put a bunch of money into it, so I didn't know if I'd be able to make the trip. and something in my head was telling me just just go put 20 bucks in so I went to an open mic instead because I didn't want to gamble or I was trying to save money trying to do this I went to an open mic and tried to premiere this new bit I've been working on and it failed completely because the room

that they that they normally have the mic in shut down for a plumbing issue so I couldn't really do the bit everybody was loud and it failed so I left early which is which is something I don't do I like to do the networking. So I was like, fuck it. I'll go put, I'll go put 20 bucks in this machine. And it kept in my head. And I did. And I won the big jackpot.

And I'm like, all right, shit. I have enough to go now. I'm going home, whatever. Two nights later, I had the weirdest craving. It's 10.30 at night. And I wanted these oatmeal raising cookies. I don't know why. I just did.

I looked up, you know, grocery stores. There were two. I drove an extra five miles past the first one to go to the second one. No idea why. It's a mire. I don't know if you guys have a mire out here. I don't think like in this area. I don't know why I ended up going to this grocery store. But I walked in and the first face that I saw is this black guy, big chain, wearing a hat.

And he looks at me and I look at him and I give him the head nod and he doesn't stop looking at me. And I'm like, what's up, man? you know because you gotta be nice you can get to let people know that you're not dangerous and he asked were you in a county with me and then I recognize it and I walk over and I'm like yeah and I said his name

and he immediately just shame on his face he says man I'm so sorry I know I know I know there's why am I at a grocery store at 10.30 at night a week before I'm coming here to do this podcast

and I run into the only person that I had an inherently negative interaction with. It blew, 10 years later, this is 10 years later, and a week before I came here, and I run into this person, and he has the opportunity to apologize. So I was in court. Actually, let me go back to the beginning of that story. I slighted someone on the deck. Didn't know, I still don't know what I did. But I upset somebody.

What's the deck so people know? Oh, the pot I was in jail, the unit, the cell block. Somebody I was in the cell block with was upset about something I did. I didn't know until we were at court and he addressed it physically. We both got finished with court. I'm sitting down at the picnic table. He slides up next to me and he says, you remember that shit you did? And I was like, no, but right there I knew something bad was going to happen.

And then he immediately starts hitting me. We start fighting. I slam him on the ground, get on top to hit him, and I get kicked. And then I'm getting the shit beat out of me by two people. I didn't expect it. Guards open the door. We stand up. The third guy didn't get in trouble.

He, like, melted into the background, but both of us looked like we were fucked up. So they grabbed us immediately. I knew that I'd see the third guy again, right? I was like, oh, we're in jail together. We can only run into each other so many times. They don't know that, you know, like, we're not going to have a keep separate. So I'll be able to get in contact with you again. Didn't, didn't ever see him again.

That was him. He was the guy? The third guy was the guy at the grocery store. Oh, wow. And you link up with him 10 years later. 10 years later, at 10.30 at night, at the farthest away grocery store that it could be. Why? Getting some home meal cookies.

A week. before I'm coming here. And that's the only inherently negative interaction because I can't wrap my head around that. I'm not a faith person.

I don't like faith at all. Man, that feels like design. So it wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. No, but that's, but what I'm saying is there was one bad thing. And that was it, right? I was in other fights.

Don't get me wrong. but everything had a reason. I could not wrap my head. I still can't about how that happens. Life works in mysterious ways. You meet people, things happen. I mean, just my whole life is weird. Like, I literally went to prison and that gave me my career.

That is, you got a point there. That's definitely weird. It's just you don't know. Something that one person would say is the worst thing. that could ever happen to you, I say it's the best thing. So it just, it works in super strange ways. And that's why you can never burn bridges. No burning bridges.

Yeah. You never know. You could meet up with an ex from 10 years ago. And she could end up being the love of your life. And you just don't, like, there's just so many scenarios, so many outcomes. You never know. So if someone leaves your life or a job ends or whatever. Just leave the door open because it could come full circle.

It just might not be that time in that moment, but it could come up later on. That's what I've learned. That was one of the hardest things for me to learn. Because I was always like, okay, fuck it, burn a bridge, whatever, you know, girl breaks up with you. You know, this job, this, fuck them. Life comes full circle. That it does. That's kind of why I'm here is to do the full circle part.

Do you think you're on your way to do that? Yeah, yeah, I do. And I think that's why that happened. I think that happened so that way I could come here without the negative hangup of that. Right? Because I could have told that story differently. That story could have been about right this time I got jumped, but it's not. It's about this miraculous coming back together and forgiveness.

And that's incredible. enclosure. And for that to happen, I think that's just one more sign that this, that this was the right thing. How does it make you feel that you lost some of your, you know, glory prime years being in prison? Like you lost, you know, the 20, 21, 22, 23. Those are the college years. Like, I always think when I was in prison, my friends were a college. Yeah.

That's a tough one to. to rectify because those memories are what people you tend to live off of, you know. But I needed the experiences that I had to be where I am and to do what I'm going to do going forward. And regardless of how, you know, how upset that might make me, me and the boys just did a boy's trip, you know, a golf trip October. And we're going to do one again this year, you know. So those, the memories that I would have made with people are, they still have time to be made.

And I didn't have any of the negative impacts that, you know, going to college can have. It sucks. And I'm trying to, I'm trying to, I'm trying to justify for myself that it's okay. But yeah, it hurts. How's your outlook on life now compared to what it was? We know what your outlook was in your teenage years, but how is it now? Are you giving the world a little bit more, you know, a little more, taking it easy on the world? No.

No? You still have a negative outlook? Well, yeah, but now I'm pissed. It's different now. I see some paths forward. I see some ways that I can help. I see some changes that could be made. And I'm more optimistic now that.

I ever have been because of those possibilities. There are possibilities to make this not a shit outcome for everyone. And I couldn't see that before. And I'm a little upset with myself about that. But I guess all of this, you know, we talked about it. All of this had to happen for me to be here. There's a path that is moving in the way that it is. And what's that path for you?

I'm hoping it's this school, if you don't mind me talking about a little bit. Yeah, what are you got going on? Let's hear about it. So I want to open a school, a private boarding school for At Risk Youth. The high school that I went to opened in 08, closed in 2016. There weren't enough kids in the district to facilitate the school being built. but two schools got built and a house in Florida got built all by the same construction company. The house in Florida happened to be for the superintendent of the school district that built the schools. So he got fired and he's going to court because that's fraud.

They're still figuring that out. But either way, this $50 million school has been closed and sitting idle. since 2016. So I want to buy it and renovate it into a boarding school that can house roughly 8,000. And I want to work up a profile of what kids in Chicago public schools tend toward the any social behaviors like gangs and drugs and violence. And then I want to apply that model to fifth graders. and I want to offer 1,000 5th graders a year the opportunity to come and finish out their schooling through senior year with us.

That's a lot, and I'm aware of that. But that's not all, right? I think that getting them out of the environments that could and most likely will negatively impact them is one of the steps to moving forward. Another one is giving them a really, really good education, which I also want to do. The third step, though, is my favorite. So during the first four years, there won't be any upperclassmen because we'll be bringing in 1,000 fifth graders. And the next year, another 1,000 of those kids move up to sixth grade and continue matriculating. In those first four years, I want to go to private schools across the country.

and offer their best and brightest the opportunity to come act as like an intern almost, where they would finish their school, but they would serve as a big brother, big sister for these kids to teach them intricacies and whatever a big brother and big sister would teach you. Through that process is how we establish a network for these kids that they can draw from, that they never would have had otherwise. So they're out of the environments that negatively impact them. They're getting an education that's worthwhile to have,

and they're establishing a network with people that you want to establish network with. If we can do all of those things, the secondary, the tertiary impacts on the neighborhoods are boundless. but it's a big ask. So I've, I've, I've manufactured it in such a way that it's 24 years, right? 16 years of intake. And we can really make an effort at seeing how we can do school differently. The, the, the, the model that used to be was to prepare people for the work life that they would have.

That's no longer the case. and it's not going to be the case going forward. So we have to change how we do school, and I think we can, as, I don't want to use the word use, but I don't have a better one to describe what we'd be doing. I think we can, through the opportunities given to these kids, find a different way to do this,

find a better way to do this, and I think I've got it. And I'd like the opportunity to try. But for that 24, years, it's going to be billions. So I need the help of one billionaire. And that's, that's the issue I'm running into. I don't want to do crowdfunding. There are people that can fund this. And they will benefit from funding it. And I want them to because it's, it's what they should. It's for the good of all. And I'm dancing around who. I want Elon must have fund this. Why Elon?

Because he's asked for schools. He's asked for a change in school. He, I believe he genuinely wants positive things for humanity moving forward. And this is how you do that. This is where you start that. But also because when Carnegie started giving away all his money, he had the equivalent of $64 billion today. I had $4 billion, which is $64 billion. Elon Musk has like $300 billion.

He wants to help. I just don't think he has the time or inclination for projects this small. I do. And I'll dedicate my life to it. And I want him to pay for it because he wants to. And I think if I was given the opportunity to lay it out for him, that he would. How did this all come in your mind? Like where do you get the thought process to piece this together?

How does it just like pop up one day? Do you see something on TV and you're like, this is what I want to do? Or is it a mixture of something popping up mixed with everything you went through as a child mixed with your stint in prison and the way you think? And like, is that how the idea is created? This one in particular was because of the last prison I was in, Qibani. It was So Kiwani's a Rehabilit

It was the first in the nation program Kiwani Life Skills and Reentry Center And it was aimed at Getting us ready for Society But It didn't It didn't help recidivism

All the freedom All the programming All the all the opportunities None of it changed recidivism at all And that That really shook me. That pouring as much money as possible into this doesn't help it on the back end.

And I don't want to give up on all the people that are in it right now, but we have to find a change. And if the change has to come at the beginning, then how do I do that? And luckily, I had a lot of time to think. So. Prison gives you that. Yeah, it does. I remember I still have the notes I plotted all my businesses in prison. I didn't do a single one of them, but I had the time to plot.

I had a whole plan. It gave you an opportunity to game it out. Yeah, you can. You could definitely game it out. It wasn't the direction I ended up going in, but I was, I had all the time to plan. It gives you, like, you see those movies, like from the olden days or, you know, where someone gets locked away in some jail and a foreign thing. Like, what's that movie with the guy that gets the mask put on them? The Count of Monte Cristo.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Great movie, you know, and he was just plotting and he knew exactly calculated everything and he got to that level. So just things like that. It's just very interesting how that all works. If you go back in time and talk to 19-year-old self, what advice would you give him now around mental health, around, you know, just that internal suffering and being lost? What would you say to him? I don't think there's anything I could say. I don't think

I don't think I'd probably I'd probably try to give them like lottery numbers like I genuinely because it was such it still is too like the

what's fueling me to to do this is the existential dread is the knowing that this is beyond repair right we can't we couldn't vote in

uncorrupted corrupt people if we tried because of how the system is. There's no way out. So I don't think there's anything that I could say. What about if there was another 19-year-old here right now who suffered? I'd do whatever I could. I'd find out what, I mean, I'd find out what it is, but, you know, that'd have to be by basis.

For me, it had to be that I had to experience all of this and get to a point where I can see a path forward because it's still existential dread. I still know that this place is fucking horrible. Like everything's fucked up because we didn't pay attention for too long. I have hope, though. I have hope. There's good people in the world. But, you know, that's the one.

You got to stay hopeful, stay positive. That's true. That's true. And that's what I'm doing. That's why I'm here. I'm hopeful and positive that we're going to fix everything. And we start by having conversations like this. but um jeff thank you for coming on the show today man and uh sharing your story and chatting and sharing your dream

and i genuinely hope that you figure out a way to pull it off um it all starts with an idea you know and it's up to you to see it through people with ideas in the world to see it through i had the idea for this podcast and i'm i'm seeing it through and it's come so far in such a short period of time. It's just very important to do that and follow your dreams. That's all I'm trying to do. Now, for our YouTube members, we have this YouTube membership program. What are your experience coming on the show? Was it what you expected? How did it turn out for you? Do you feel better talking about it in this setting? Yeah. It was definitely... I know you're very curious to learn about me. Did you discover anything through the interview?

a whole lot. You're very guarded, man. It drives me nuts. Um, but the whole, I mean, it's incredible. Everything is incredible. Um, the fact that you've built this from scratch in a year is, is pretty wild. Uh, but to come on, I mean, it's a little overwhelming at first because you walk in and you don't know what you're expecting. And then you see, you know, you got the YouTube plaque, 100,000 followers. That was wild. Um, you know, and. To see how you've set this all up. It's definitely a shock right at first. But you've done a really cool thing here.

And you made it as comfortable as you could. And again, brown leather chair. Yeah, that was my dream. I remember last year I was like, because we were in a different studio. And I was like, I want two nice chairs. I just want to be in a private room where no one can hear you. And I also like the idea where I'm doing everything myself too because it's not overwhelming with a team. Yeah.

Like if other people were listening in and we set it up so if like if you bring a guest with you, they can listen and stuff. But there's a lot of pressure if you have like the film guy, the producer, this and that all listening with this. It's just me and you. You get comfortable. Wow. I didn't even think about other people. If other people were. Yeah.

Like if I was aware that other people. Like if there was a whole team sitting there and listening, you know, like when you go on some of these major podcasts or TV sets or anything, there's all these people. Here it's just me. that isn't really man I didn't even consider that see it's not bad I I can't believe that you do it all yourself that blows me away

it makes me special it definitely does it like the amount of of time and effort I just put it in not just not just to do that I mean you're doing the interview but you also got to do the editing I do everything you also got to do the socials

you also got to I just I balance my time and I just grind I have other clients too and yeah I think that people are always definitely shocked that they see that. And, you know, it's not like people want to like spend time with me and this and that. And it's hard to do just because I'm balancing a lot. And maybe one day that'll change. But this is what I'm supposed to be doing.

You know, I know this is what I'm supposed to be doing. You're on the grind. So. rolling again? Yeah, yeah, hopefully. You know, get a studio together, get some better equipment. I know your mind's already spinning the way you asked me questions. Well, yeah, you know, I wanted to know.

I wanted to know everything. But that's good. Never stopped doing that because that's how I learned. I constantly ask questions. You can't be shy about asking questions. So you get answers. You see what other people are doing that are doing it and you just keep questioning them.