Locked In with Ian Bick - Inside America’s Toughest Federal Prisons: 24 Years in Big Sandy & Coleman | Davey Stewart

Episode Date: January 16, 2025

Davey Stewart shares his story of surviving 24 years in some of America’s federal prisons, including Big Sandy and Coleman. I interviewed Davey during my trip to Kentucky last fall, where he talked about life behind bars, navigating the prison environment, and finding resilience through it all. This is an inside look at the U.S. prison system. #PrisonStories #FederalPrison #BigSandy #ColemanPrison #TrueCrime #LifeBehindBars #PrisonSurvival #InsidePrison Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Life After 24 Years in Federal Prison 00:03:23 Leaving the Church: A Path to Destruction 00:06:49 Dropping Out Before Graduation 00:10:25 Early Marriage and Divorce 00:16:11 Early Exposure to Substance Use 00:18:34 Early 30s: Arrested with an Illegal Firearm 00:21:21 Facing Harsh Federal Sentencing Guidelines 00:25:01 Facing Severe Legal Consequences 00:28:36 Navigating the Legal System: A Personal Experience 00:32:08 Prison Dynamics and Territory Battles 00:36:13 Life in a Penitentiary: Daily Structure and Lockdowns 00:39:10 Working in UNICOR: Military Apparel and Quality Inspections 00:42:50 Navigating Social Dynamics in Prison 00:46:13 Life in Prison: Numbing to Violence and Bloodshed 00:49:46 Adjusting to Life After Prison 00:53:31 Overcoming Drug Addiction: Seeking Help and Advice 00:57:09 Appreciation and Farewell Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Thank you to the team over at Lake Cumberland for helping us set all this up, connecting us to you. You have a very unique story because you just got out of federal prison after 24 years just a few weeks ago. Yeah, I've been out about 11 months. Oh, 11 months. Okay. Sorry about that. Wow. So what's it like to be home?

Everything is new, man. It's like when I got out and they gave me a cell. phone and it's got a computer on you do this you do this you do this when i went in it was a keypad it wasn't a computer on the cell phone so everything kind of like new you know what i mean yeah i don't think you ever expected to be doing a podcast no i kind of got set up on this one my friend jessica johnson over here in her set me up well and she'll be on the podcast so she she unfortunately made you go first but uh you're the guinea pig make sure and answer ask her to heart questions when she gets up oh yeah she's in for a tough one don't worry i haven't we've been uh preparing

for her for a year now because they skated on me last year. They were supposed to come to Connecticut and they bailed on old McLevin over here. But they're all listening in on this, so they're going to kind of get an idea where we're going. Did you grow up in Kentucky? I did. I grew up about an hour from here in Mount Vernon, Kentucky. And is that like the country, Kentucky? Where I was. It's farm country, small town, small community. And did you grow up big family, parents? I had five siblings and both my parent. And you are how old in the mix of all your siblings? I'm next to the youngest. I got older brother, sisters, one younger brother. And were you guys close-knit? Yeah, we was pretty much always stuck together, you know, to even after my older sibling,

married and had their own family, they would all come together, maybe monthly or something and have dinners or whatever was going on. We always stayed pretty close. If we had all your siblings here right now, how would they describe you? What do you think would be their, you know, one line or about you? Well, they probably couldn't describe me in one line. They'd do it before and after. All right, so how would they describe you before? Because we're going back in time right now.

The audience doesn't really know who you are yet. How would they describe you back then 24 years ago? Probably I was on a crash course. I mean, it was pretty obvious. The robot I was heading down was dead in, you know what I mean? But a couple ways out, either dead or prison or jails or something of that nature, you know what I mean. Where did they all end up? Did any of them end up in prison?

I had two brothers ended up in prison, and one brother and two sisters. They never did get any trouble. Now, your parents, did they ever go to prison? Did they have any? No, they was straight and narrow. We was the one that jumped off to other direction. When you were in prison, did you ever think about, you know, why that was? Like, you guys came from a good family, you know, farm family,

and then you guys kind of went off the railroads there. I don't know. A lot of it, you know, you can blame it on a lot of things. It's personal choice, but a lot of it's a personal choice, but a lot of it's community. because, you know, at that time, the crowd that we was with would be drinking or smoking weed or whatever and everybody. Some of them got off and went, you know, different direction. We could pretty much date on the road that headed us to prison, you know.

If you had to attribute, like, one thing from your childhood that you think, looking back on it, led to prison, what do you think that would be? It would probably be the decision I made because I was raised in a church home environment and stuff. And my early teens, I kind of got slipping away from church. and hanging around with the wrong crowd. So I think that was the decision that led me on the road to the destruction. Walking away from what I know off end of what I didn't know, you know, with drugs and alcohol and stuff comes with it. So I think that was a major decision to walk away from pretty much my raising,

upbringing, you know. Do you think that the church, the way you grew up, was too strict on you? And that's why you kind of wanted to explore? I don't know, maybe in a way that. and, you know, people try things, and some people don't like it and go back to church and some people head off to, and I was one of those people that just kept going farther and farther, you know.

Yeah. It all come crashing down. Did you have, like, a close bunch of friends, or were you kind of a loner? Well, just to drinking buddies and get high buddies later on. So did you guys go to public school when you were in Kentucky? Yeah, to public school. Okay, so you weren't like homes.

I know some farm families are, like, homeschooled. It wasn't as common back then as it is now homeschooling. I don't think I don't know nobody was homeschooled when I come up in the school in the 70, early 80. And what did your parents do for work? My dad worked on railroad and, you know, my mom, she tried to take her to farm and raise six kids. Did you guys, like, have all the animals, like the chickens, the cows? We did, back in the day, chicken, the cows, hog, duckies. A little bit of everything around this mule.

And did that, like, support your family, like, with the men? milk and the... It helped, yeah. Okay. You have more to eat. How would you say you guys grew up from a wealth status, like poor, middle class, upper class? Probably close to middle class because, you know, the railroad's always been a pretty decent job. And then we had to farm to kind of supplement income, too.

So, you know, we never did have to go hunger or nothing? Yeah. Now, out of your siblings, did you look up to any of them? Was there one like that you were the closest to? Well, I probably looked up at Moldish brother the most, and I still look up to you. even though he's 67. Did you guys stay in contact throughout your prison sentence? Yeah, I pretty much stay in contact with my immediate family.

They didn't none bail on me. None of them did while. Some situation they do. I know a lot of guys I was with their families cut ties with them. We could all kind of help another ride through what we had to go through. Yeah, I mean, when I was in prison, there's a lot of people whose families, and when I talked to individuals that their families just cut them off, a lot of their siblings take it kind of personally.

and they want to cut ties. No, we're pretty much taking contact. Do you think that helped get you through a lot of your sentence? Absolutely. I'm at that letter and mail or being able to pick up the phone, call somebody that loves you and cares about you and can help, especially when you're in times of, you know, you know how prison is, man, sometimes, especially in the penitentiary,

you'd be locked down for three weeks at a time. Yeah. You ain't coming out that cell, nothing but take a shower three times a week for an hour, rest of time you're under lockdown. So that letter to mail helps a lot. And I'm sure you've seen it evolve from letters to then true links with the emailing system. That must have been difficult to learn and all of that, which we'll get into later in this episode. I mean, I'm sure you've seen a lot from when you first got there to, you know, leaving.

It's probably evolved so much. Did you end up finishing high school? I didn't. I quit about two months before graduation. Why two months before? Actually, it was, I went in and hung over and told us. teacher I need to go home. She's like, go to the principal's office, talk to him about it, and I go down there. And you can lay it on my couch, but I can't let you go home because

there wasn't nobody at home. You know, my parents was gone. I'm like, okay, so I went out the back door and everything come back. Another stupid decision. Two months before graduation. And were you drinking a lot back then? Was that just a normal? Okay. That was a one-time decision type thing? Yeah, I mean, I was drinking probably a couple times a week, but that was the one school night I was stayed out too late during it. Do you think looking back on it, do you think leaving high school kind of led you down that path that you would end up choosing? Well, I think making the decision to drop out and quit gives you to or give me the, in the back of my mind, you know, I can quit one-on-one on whatever, you know, where it's a job or school or, you know, when you quit one thing, it's easier to quit something else. Yeah.

I think that anytime you quit anything is a major decision in your life. It's high school or something of that nature. So young Davy back in high school, what were your aspirations? What was your career path? What did you want? Well, I had a couple goals. One was I was thinking about my brother, a moldish brother, my dad both worked for a railroad. And I kind of thought about that.

And then I was talking to a Navy recruiter about maybe joining the Navy. So that was kind of a couple things. I was thinking about doing. And then the classic story, my girlfriend got pregnant, so we wound up. Going that route, you know. And that's why you didn't end up joining the Navy? That's one reason. Wow.

So do you ever think about, do you ever think about like you were like literally months away from a whole different life? Every decision can be major, no matter how minor, huh? Yeah, and that's one of the core things of the show. Like we, because I always start at the person's childhood. It's always a few decisions that lead you down a path or just necessarily one decision. that spirals everything and it takes you down the path that we end up going on. I tell my nephew yesterday, man. I made clean for 23 years, but still I got to make that one decision.

When I got up this morning, am I going to use it or am I going to stay clean? Thank God, you know, it's clean yesterday. I'm giving them my best stay clean today. So I mean, that's even a decision. It's an addict. I got to make it every day. When did you start using? Was it in high school?

Probably, yeah, no. Probably sixth grade. Sixth grade. What was the first time you were exposed to drugs? And what was the drug? And how did that even come about? Alcohol. And I think if I remember correctly, I stole it out of the trunk of my brother's car.

And your brother was using alcohol too. Yeah. And he just started, like, randomly using alcohol? I don't know. Like I said, he was 12 when I was born, you know what I mean? Yeah. He would have been probably 20 times. I was still in beer.

And what did your parents think about this? Did they try to influence you guys at all? Yeah, they tried to teach us right and tell us right. And I don't know how many times. My poor mother, boy, you don't get off that life in a fast lane. You're going to mind up crashed under the wall. And you were just hard-headed and didn't want to listen. Okay, okay, okay.

No mama talks you. Okay, you go do what you do. So when you're 18 and you have the baby now, what happens next? Well, I get to work and try to raise it, you know what I mean, work and do what I can. And that lasts about maybe a year and we wind up a divorce. Oh, you guys got the, oh, so you did get married to her.

Got married, and we might have married a year and a half, ended up divorced. Now, was it common during that time to get married at that age and have kids? Yeah, that area, I meant, for sure. The small town kind of country, it's normal. I think they keep signing off on it like at 16 back then. That's when they were wanting kids to get married. Well, man, if you want to get married and their parents would sign off on it, they would sign off like at 16.

It had to be 16. What did your parents think about you getting married and having the kid at that age? They hit the ceiling. I'm like, you know, it is what it is. Can't reverse what's going on now. Yeah. Looking back on it, do you regret that decision? No, man, I regret not trying harder to make it work.

You know, there was a kid involved. The end of the day, he was the most important thing, not me. Have you talked to her at all? Actually, she passed away about last year, I think it was. I'm sorry to hear that. Yeah, we talked over the years. I think that was 30 years ago. Do you look back, I mean, when you look back after serving that amount of time,

Does it seem like a blur? Do you remember it vividly? Well, I meant both. Sometimes, you know, you think about it, and you're like, you could calculate in this a long time, but if you just think about it, it's not a long as you think. Yeah.

A lot of guys ask, man, now you do so much time, one day at a time. Same way to do you're sending. Did you count it down at all? Did you keep like a calendar? Do you, when you have that much time, do you? Not really. Even when I got to a year short,

I didn't really. I wouldn't check the box off. because just another day you get up and do what you do. And maybe you don't want to jinx it or anything. Go through your routine. Yeah. So at what age did you ultimately get sentenced to prison? I was 32 when I got arrested, 33 when I got sent it.

So all of your 20s, what was going on? Were you just struggling with alcohol or living? What kind of life were you living? It was alcohol, drugs, back and forth. I mean, I had weeks of sobriety here and there. but I never could seem to make it stick. You know what I mean? I get clean for a little while,

then I would fall back off. It usually always start back with drinking because, I mean, I drinkin's legally and I can do it, huh? But to me, I'd get, I'd drink me a few beers, and then I'd get a little buzz, and then I'm going to go get something to get a little more twisted. It's right back off the racing.

And what were you doing for work and for money during those years? I had basically labor, labor. I mean, I would work on, construction, help build houses or farm work, stuff of that nature. And so you go through this period of time, you still had every opportunity to join the military, the Navy, whatever you wanted to get into. Why didn't you? I knew that I couldn't do that and lived life I was living, you know, I mean,

zero tolerance in the military. If you're going to get busted and kicked out, so why bother, you know? What was the feeling that using drugs? or alcohol gave you? And was there something you were kind of trying to escape, a life you were trying to escape? I don't know. I thought about that a lot,

and I've been through a lot of drug programs, NA and AA and all these meetings and stuff, and they talk about this caused them used, this caused them used. I think where I started so young that they wouldn't really anything caused me to use. I just used, and I kind of enjoyed it at that point,

and I just kept using it. I never really knew anything else. I never knew sobriety. and them fall off and use drug because at that age and you start using it's the norm. Your high is the norm. Did you have a lot of resentment towards your brother for, you know, kind of exposing alcohol to you? Not at all, man. If it hadn't been him, it had been somebody else.

You think that? Absolutely. You don't ever think that they're going back, like you might not ever have been exposed to it or you think it was just destined to happen? I think everybody's exposed to it because, I mean, if it hadn't been, I mean, it'd been with a friend or, you know, everybody's exposed and has to make a choice where they want to use drugs or alcohol. I say everybody, that's a broad statement, but the vast majority of people, if you can get through life with that, that many exposed to alcohol and drugs, you must be in a bubble. Yamava Resort and Casino at San Manuel is California's number one entertainment destination for the biggest shows this summer.

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Discover more at airweave.com. How is your relationship with your parents and your siblings throughout your 20s? It was good. We never did have no, really no major beast, no quarrels or nothing. It was us against the world, I guess, for the most part. And you stayed pretty close to home? I did. I moved off a time or two when Cincinnati lived a little while.

Actually moved over at Somerset and lived a little while. But those when I go back to the county of its prime. So it never got out of Kentucky? A while I went Cincinnati. Okay. Why did you come back? I didn't really like it up. I don't know too much concrete and no few.

And dad and my sister. worked in a bar. My sister-in-law worked in a bar, and I found myself at the bar more than was anywhere else. I'm like, man, I don't get out here. I'm going to turn an alcoholic. That's funny. So now you're in your early 30s. What happens? What takes kind of a dark turn? I guess the drugs, you know, they get a little more and a little more. And actually, for me, it was oxycotting, man. When they put them out, I could play with cocaine and pain pills and the bag of Xanax and weed I could pick and juice but I picked that bottle of seas up it was downward spiral about six months that was crashing burn it was something that

there's really no way to explain how bad and how addictive and how far they'll take you how fast they'll take you now were you committing any crimes at that time where you know like breaking and entering looking for money or anything like that or are you just like a you know your typical drug addict that was a affected, you know, by the system, by the, you know, the drug epidemic, everything like that at the time? Honestly, you know, I grow a little weed off and on. That was kind of my supplemental income, I guess you would call it. And you were selling that?

Yeah, I sold wheat, growed and sold it, you know. And back then it was even, I mean, it's illegal now still in Kentucky, right? It is, but not like it was then, I don't think. Okay. I think they've kind of put the blinders on a little more. Back then they were probably pretty tough on it. Back in, they were flying helicopters and searching and looking, running through the wood, trying to find it. And they were like fields at everyone, were you growing it on like your parents' farm?

No, I never did grow it on. Never did it grow up on. If you get caught growing wheat on your property, they can take it. So where were you growing up back then? About any briar patch or a secret ticket we could find. And just in random spots and you just, how do you know no one would go and like take it or find it? it. Well, they did. You would just put a few out here and a few out there, and they take some of them. You get by with some of them. And how much, on a grow, how much money would you make back at the

day? Not near the trouble it was worth. So we're talking like a couple hundred bucks, maybe. Yeah, something like that. But that was a good bit of change back then. They'll stay high on. That's about it. And that's the number one rule. You can't smoke your own supply when you're selling. Well, you do because it's cheapest. That's true. You could save some money doing that. You're growing it, you ain't got nothing there. So what happens in your early 30s that you end up in federal prison? I actually got caught with a illegal forearm and a bottle ofxycotting, and bams, like 24 peel and a gun.

That's what I got jammed up on in the fed. Why did you have the gun? I was actually just transporting at point A to point B at that time. For someone else? I was taking it one person, that was pretty much. And did you know it was a bad gun, like an unregistered gun or anything like that?

Did you know what it was? Well, I knew it was unregistered, you know what it was. I know I shot it once and it jammed up and I shot it again and it jammed up. I threw it in the back of the car and might never get caught with it and they said it'll do all this stuff that I never could get it to do.

So it was a friend that gave you the gun or another addict? I don't know. I was just another addict. It was another addict that tossed you the gun. And did he offer you money or anything? Like, why would you take the gun? I was just taking it his favor from here to the run.

Because I was going from this place to that place. So they pull you over with that gun in the car? Just randomly walk us through kind of what happened at the... Well, actually, I had pulled up at the wrong place that I was supposed to have been at. I've been up high for about two days. And I pull up, and I think of it one place I'm in a done. and they called the police out and I'm going to get caught with it. And who shows up like the FBI, DEA, anything?

Kentucky State Police. Kentucky State Police. They wound up because of the illegal firearm, the feds picked it up. And they wound up in federal court. And what are they charge you with? What are they saying when you arrive at court? It was possession of illegal firearm, possession of narcotics intent of resale.

And then, of course, the 9-20. foresee that they destroy people within prison, further this for drug transaction with the firearm. But my argument was, how can I further the drug possession of a firearm? When I never sold the pills, you're saying I'm going to sell the pills. I got intent to distribute. So they're like, well, if somebody come in you and tried to rob you, you would use the gun to protect the drugs.

Therefore, it's a 924C. So that puts about a double up on your center. And was there anyone else on your case, co-defendants, or it was just solely you? I didn't have any co-defendants. So there was no conspiracy, nothing like that. So how long did you have the gun in your possession for? Probably an hour. An hour.

And you didn't do anything with the gun. You just had it. But was the gun used for anything else that they gave you that much time? It was just, like you say, where they put at 924C, they give you time for the pill, and they give you time for the gun and having the pills, basically. which is a double sentence. And we've argued to the Supreme Court several times. The Supreme Court keeps upholding that no, it's a, they uphold it and let your eye.

So was there a mandatory minimum for those charges? They was. It was, actually, the mandatory minimum was 30, not to be run with nothing else. Actually, I didn't tell you the whole story. I wound up with, they sentenced me to 481 months, which was 40 years in a month. But I was able to get overturned on the indictment, wasn't sufficient. and got it down to 28-year sentence. 23 on it and you're halfway high.

And did they give you a plea deal off the bat? Did you go to trial? What happened? They did offer me a plea agreement for 38 years. I was 38. I'm 33. That's 71. So let's shoot the dice, you know.

So you're just, you know, you're an addict. You're on the, you're on the street. You're doing what you have to do. You pick up this gun and then all of a sudden you're facing 40 years in prison. Pretty much. What's going through your mind at that time? Like, how are you thinking, feeling? I'm thinking, how can a gun and 20 pills be a 40-year sentence?

I'm at the gun packs two years. If you got it by itself, the pills pack four or five years. If you got them of them, they're all in 40 years. I'm like, how can, how does just math work? How can you take two and five and wind up with 40? And how much drugs did you have in the car? That's it. Just a little bag.

That was a... Just a little pill bottle with... But that many pills in it. So do they get you confused for someone else? Like that's an absurd amount of time for an individual. They didn't. That's the federal guidelines that a lot of people don't understand. In another chart, they gave me 10 years for being in the imposition of a firearm

while under an influence of narcotic. Well, a lot of people don't realize that charge even exists. You got a firearm in your high. You can get 10 years. And they stacked every charge. like on top of each other. They ran three together and one consecutive. So when you get arrested, did they give you bail at all or they kept you locked?

They denied bail. No bail. What year is this? 2001. What did your family say when they visited you for the first time? Well, man, it kind of really didn't talk about what's going on. You talked about. I hang in there.

You're going to get through it. Keep going, man. I mean, what can you think? They don't know nothing about what's going on. I don't even know nothing about what's going on. I'm going in the middle of it, you know. And you're still, you're probably going through withdrawals at that point. I did a couple days probably.

That's the worst. That's the last long. Those first couple days coming off the drugs while you're in prison and lockup, I've had, you know, bunk mates that are like that and it's bad. It didn't really, it didn't really affect me that bad as far as sickness or nothing. I mean, I was more sick about it because I was looking at all this time than I was about coming off the drugs, you know. Yeah. Did you get a public defender or a paid attorney?

I did. I had a actually the feds give you, excuse me, the feds gave you a private attorney that they pay for. A CGA. Yeah, there's no public defender system in the Eastern District, Kentucky. And those attorneys actually happen to be actual, you know, private practiced attorneys that can. You know, paid to do that. For the most part, pro se, everyone that practices law, and they've got to be on the roster to do so many of them for the federal defendant.

So when that lawyer is telling you, you know, laying out what you're facing, what do you say to him? What's that like that? What's that like that? What's that? I come at me and he said, that's what the player gave me? 38 years. If you go to trial and they find you guilty, they'll give you life.

38 and 33 is life. That's 71. I guess the end of 71, I mean, I ain't really tripping wherever come out or not, you know. So we'll go ahead and go to trial with it and see what happens. At the end of day, I got caught with 24 pills and a firearm. So I'm thinking, there ain't no way they could pick me there. Now, was this much time? Was this a standard back then, you know, that people were getting jammed up on these charges for that amount of time?

Yes, really it still is. I mean, the rules had to change that much. one thing they did change is the first step back before they were stacking 924 Cs say you get caught with I get caught with a firearm and then I get caught with it again first and five second 25 third and 50 so you might get in 100 years if you get caught three times for firearm on a sentence they made them stop doing that on stacking the 924 C that changed a little bit other than that it's like rules are still there so did you actually end up making it to try or did they give you, did they give you a better deal right before?

I went to trial and a jury trial in 2001. How long did that last for? About three days. Three days? Why so quick? It's just how they roll. Describe it. What was that like going to trial when you're literally fighting for your life for that many years?

It's pretty difficult when you look around the courtroom and everybody in there is getting checked from the government except you. Oh, my God, I'm in trouble. They paid their witnesses, come testify, and everybody in the courtroom is getting paid to pretty much convict you and send you to prison for X amount of year. Do you think it's a fair system? Absolutely not.

They give you a limited amount of what you can use on your defense. And the government has got the power of the United States federal government behind them, you know. So you may have got a chance for real. How do you think the judge was in your case? He was fire, actually. give me the bottom end to the guideline. But the prosecutor, man, he was just, he was bloodthirsty, he sat down and wrote a sick count indictment on something.

It should have been a two-count indictment. I should have had possession of the firearm possession of the pill. He just kept writing stuff and tacking it. When I went to trial, I beat two charges, but it still left me before convictions. He had nothing down there if I'd beat five. He'd still got 10, 15 years out of it. That's what they do. They give you so many charges.

I had 15 charges. I went to trial. I won like nine of them, but it so's others. They just need one charge. Absolutely. They get you. They keep stacking and they get put enough against you.

I meant they're going to prove something. Yeah. Another thing they did was, you know, they got to give you your discovery package, 72 hours before trial. I got trial scheduled on Monday on Friday afternoon at 4 o'clock after my attorney's office closed. They go down there and drop my discovery package

on his outside doorstep at his office. He don't even go to his office. He comes to trial Monday morning. We don't even have a discovery package. I'm sitting in going to trial without even have a discovery package. He throws it down here and look through this and see what you can find right quick while they're talking to the witnesses. See what you can find to ask him.

I'm like, okay, this is going really well. I don't even know what to say that. You got railroaded, you know? Did you have a defense too? Like, were you good? Did you guys bring up that someone else gave you the gun? No, I mean, I took all the weight. I didn't put nobody else in the car with me.

I rode by myself, you know. My gun, I'm caught, boom, it is what it is. Do you wish you didn't take the weight looking back on it? No, never. I mean, I can look at myself in the mirror every morning. I can do that with no one did. I didn't put nobody else where I was at. How to make you feel when you met guys in prison later on

that didn't do the honorable thing like you did? I would, I guess shunham's a good word. I'd stay away from them. Yeah. So you actually, ended up getting a little bit less time than you did for the plea deal? I did. I want to say on the it was 2225 motion. Indictment. There was a bunch of indictments come out of Eastern District Kentucky or they had worded an indictment wrong. And I found that case. It's Leon Combs case.

That had a Sixth Circuit. And I kind of followed the thing, directions he left. And being another prisoner filed a motion and actually got back in and wound up with new playground for 28 years. After it was all said. This was after the trial before sentencing or after? No, this was in 06. That's five years after I got a sentence. And what was your final sentence? 40 years.

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So on a 40-year sentence, where'd they send you to first, that's a penitentiary? Yeah, I started out in USP, Coleman, Colorado. Now, Coleman has a pretty serious reputation for being one of the toughest pens. Was it like that back then? Not really. It was brand new. It just opened. It was like, it'll hold 1,500 people, and it was like 600 days.

When I got there, everything was brand new. the population was kind of coming up. And when they opened a new one, they don't really allow any disciplinaries to go to the new ones. So it was sweet for about a year. And then once they got their budget and everything, and started letting everybody come in, you got all the disciplinaries coming in. So it got a little excited.

Oh, so when going to a brand new kind of penitentiary, there's probably no politics, gangs, any of that in the beginning? Not for the most part. They are, but it's not like it is once it gets up to population and run. Do you think your experience in prison would have been different had you went to a place that was already seasoned and kind of broken in? It would have because I was blessed. I stayed there two and a half years and then they opened Big Sandy, which is in Kentucky. And I'm trying to get closer home.

So I was able to get a transfer of there. And when I got there, it was brand new. So it just had like 600 people in it. Wow. Big Sandy was new to it then? So I got to open it up. I mean, you know what they say about Big Sandy now and stuff. That's one of the most ruthless places.

It is definitely a slaughterhouse. It was time I left. There's nothing to do there butt wreck on one another because there's just nothing there. So talk about the evolution of that. How does a penitentiary go from like a brand new opened up pen? Everything's kind of normal to all of a sudden it's like you just set a slaughterhouse. Like I was saying there before, when they open them, if anybody's got any type of discipline, you have to have 18 months, clean contact to get the new one.

If you've been any type of trouble in 18 months, then. You can't get there. They really, guys ain't been in trouble in 18 months. They're really looking to try to get into any trouble. Then once they get up to population running, they run it for like two months, then they'll get a budget. Once they get their budgets, they basically established if they can run a prison.

Then they take the restrictions off and pretty much anybody can come in. Somebody get in trouble and calm one and can't make it on the yard door. They might send them a big sandy to just transfer them out of one place than the other one. And then it just, as it goes on, like he was talking about what I go, establishing, and they're beefing for territory who gets to run the gambling,

who gets to run this or that. It caused a lot of static off the beginning. Then they get, everybody gets established to get their little spot. Then the new bus comes in and they want to find their spot, so they go to wrecking. And it creates like a war. Yeah. So someone like you, I'm imagining that you kind of stayed neutral and out of the way. Yeah, I never was in the gang or anything like that.

I mean, we had to kind of stay with your crew from your hometown that you run with, you know what I mean. Everybody would kind of stay together and look out from one another, so to speak. Did they call them cars back then, too? Pretty much, yeah. Where did that terminology come from? Do you know? Because this is, you know, back in the day. I really don't know, man.

It's older now because that's the way it was when I got to. Yeah. Yeah. When I was at like Fort Dix as my first spot and they established it as cars and you ran kind of with your state, which is very different from like state prison. So when these guys come in that start kind of causing all the raucous, where does someone like you who's neutral knocking affiliated fall? What happens to you? Well, for the most part, you stay out of way. People do what they do. You know, finish your business, stay out of it. They're going to do what they're going to do. As you got older, did you have a certain amount of respect because you've been around kind of the block, like as an O.G, an old-timer?

Well, you do, but like I said, I never was really involved in anything. Actually, after I got sentenced and got my time and everything, I got going to church and kind of gave my life over to God and kind of, I guess I run with the Jesus crew, you know what time I was on, so I wasn't involved in their money. I wasn't involved in their business.

So I just kind of old dude out of the way, you know. Now, something that I've learned about kind of federal prison with like the Jesus crew is that sometimes sex offenders and tromas would kind of hide in that and the lows and the mediums. For real, for real. And when I get to Lexon, I'm going to church. Like, man, you're going down there with all the child molester and stuff. I said, look at him. I was going to the church in the penitentiary. I ain't let them scare me off in the low.

Keep going. So they were able to still be there in the penitentiaries back then? No. They couldn't. That's what I'm saying. I went there and they weren't there, so I'm not going to go to the law and then quit going to church because they're going. I look here at the commons area. You tell you, you're going to quit going to commons area. Yeah. Was that weird for you when you got down to a lower level security prison, seeing how different it is, like the politics, the atmosphere, or everything? Not really because I wasn't really involved in the politics. No way. Like I was telling you, to begin, I worked in a unicorn, having a little wreck program, having a church program, stay involved, some type of, educational program, the art program. So I pretty much like out here, man, I'm up, wide up all day, go to bed, up, wide up all day.

It's just a small city inside the fence, man, you know you've been there. Yeah. Same thing. Now, what's like a typical day like structurally in a penitentiary? Like, because you're locked in a cell. It's a lot different than the lows. Well, the lows, it's the same as a low except, you know, when something kicks off and it gets locked down.

I mean, they run the same. You've got to go to the child, go to the rec yard, go to work, or, you know, whatever you got going on. But then once to get locked down, you're locked in the cell. And locked down the cell just like county jail time. You just kind of read and find somebody to entertain yourself, listen to radio for time to go sleep and get up and do it again. What was the longest you guys were locked down for? Probably the longest one I hit was three weeks. You know, like that three weeks.

And during that lockdown, you're just in your, cell sometimes there's no showers they're bringing food to you yeah you uh the shower's outside of cells you go like monday went and friday the letter about for maybe 10 minute shower you run the shower by the time you get wet they go screaming it's oh with it's oh well so you finish your shower and get out now you probably seen a ton of cellmates kind of pass through your cells throughout the years were you one of those guys that would kind of give the newcomers advice or anything like that Well, it's kind of, for the most part, they'll let you get somebody to put in a cell that you can, you can bid with. You know what I mean?

They ain't going to try to put me in there with somebody that they know we're oil and water, and somebody's not going to stand there, so they would kind of let you pick and choose somebody you could get along with. And if it didn't work out, they kind of move around. Did you ever have a cellmate where you're like, you've got to go? You can't stay here. I didn't have one, man, but it wasn't nothing. He was doing. It was just he snored like a train.

So what do you say to him when he's snoring? My bunk, because I used to snore a lot, would kick the bottom of the bunk. They wouldn't nothing you could do with him. So I told him, I said, look, I go to counselor and find you somewhere to stay. Okay, I'll go tomorrow. It went on about two days. I stay up all night at work all day, right? And I sit up all night and let him snore.

So about the third night, I set up all night with the radio on us. I'm standing up, you stand up. Next morning he finally went and told him, I need to move. Now, you were telling me off camera. before that, you did Unicor. Can you tell the audience what that is and what your job was and how much you were making doing that? It's a prison industry, Unicorn Prison Industry.

It's just different types of factories, the same as they got out here, but it's fine the fence. First one I started in was textile. It was making the BDU pants for military camouflage pan. And it paid, thwart you out at 23 cents. hour and every grade level you go like four grade levels every grade level there's 23 cents additional you make up like the dollar 15 an hour and they got the piece rate where you do ticket pay so if you get over on the machine you

might make two dollars a hour two dollars fifty cents a air cordon how many bundles you sew in the clothes and make paints for the about everything in the military the United States military and then When I transferred to Manchester, they did like the Gortex military pants, the extreme cold wet weather. We did them. That same set up, same scale pay all unicornress, so we did them. And then I got over on the quality inspections.

But then I make like $1.50 an hour doing quality inspection on the pants that the military were. And I moved to, when I transferred to the, I was, I was transferred. Lexington, they do, it's a cable factory, the electronic cable assembly for the planes and the tanks and missiles need a lot of missile cables for the Patriot missiles and all the missiles. We make them, but sorter, most of it's shorter and cramp. I've done the inspection on it there for a while in the same space cap like $1.50. I thought it's pretty cool. I'm inspecting the cables that goes in the missiles for the government.

But I'm a prisoner in the federal prison. Now, Unicor is a pretty prestigious job. Like, guys that are in Unicor tend to not want to kind of screw it up because if you don't have any money or support from the streets, you could live off of that. Like we're talking about, well, like, oh, you make 200 a month in Unicorn and you make 15 a month if you're working out on the cleaning the units or over the grass or working in the kitchen.

So really, Unicorn Commons is the only thing you don't make any money in the prison. Did you go your whole entire side? sentence without having to go to the shoe? I did. Thank God I made the whole thing. You made 24 years without one time in the shoe. So you really kept your nose. Wow. Wow. It was a... I wonder you might have set a record. I wonder how many guys have gone that amount of time

without ever going into the shoe or anything like that. I don't know. It gets difficult sometimes because, I mean, you get over into some situations. It's a situational awareness, man. You've got to be careful what's going on because if you're over here and like you were talking about while over your car gets in something, you're in it too. And you got to kind of make sure you know everything going on at all time. Grace of God, man, that you're not in the wrong place, it's wrong time. Were there ever like a younger demographic that would kind of try to, you know, give you a hard time, you know, pick on you, bully you at all? Not really. I never was.

No, thank God I never was bullied or tried to be bullied. That probably wouldn't work real well. I probably would have been in the shoe. Wow, that's a, that really is incredibly. Incredible. Good for you, man. For most part, I'm in prison. People respect the way that you conduct yourself. And you show respect, you get respect. And you're not blowing other people's business or trying to get anybody jammed up

or trying to take anything they got for the most part. They ain't bothering. What are the biggest mistakes you see newcomers make when they get in on a yard on like a penitentiary? Probably disrespect. They come in and say some kid from nowhere. It thanks to have been somewhere and they want to come in and try to. to self disrespect to a guy that has been somewhere and has done some stuff and it would not wind up to go for them. So probably disrespect.

Probably gets them in trouble quicker than anything. And there's levels to disrespect. Like something I've learned in prison is that, you know, something that you would consider not disrespectful on the street could very well be disrespectful inside. What was one of the, like, the severe cases, the disrespect you saw? Probably, to be honest, which, cut in line, Cut line was probably the most common.

You'll see that a line. And grown men would cut another person in line. Yeah, you'd be in line because line may be, if you've got to go a good mill, you might be 50 people back in line waiting to go through to get your cray, and you've got some yahu want to come up here and jump in the line halfway up. No, man, that ain't going to work.

Wow. You know, that's probably the most common. And then that normally turns into a fight and then? Well, not the first time. I mean, usually some of our people pull them up and warn them. No, man, you can't be. can't be doing that. But unless you really slow,

then they pretty much know that at Starwax. That's one of the, you kind of get do's and don't when you get there from whoever your people there. In the penitentiary, did you guys knock on the table before getting up at the Chauha? A lot of time.

How did you learn about that? And what does it mean? It's like, excuse me, I mean, like respect, you know, I mean, excuse me, I'm rolling. I don't want to get up while somebody's eating and just walk off, you know,

I mean. Out here, I guess you say, I'm done, I got to go, excuse me. or you just get up back the table and roll. And do you still do that to this day? No. I ain't caught myself yet. What are some habits since you've transitioned to the free world that you, you know, that you've carried over?

Like, was it weird showering without flip flops for the first time? Yeah, the first few times for sure. I mean, you probably wore flip flops for 24 years, right? I do. I always worked flip flops in the shower. Probably the one thing that's created up in most situational awareness. like I'm aware of everything going on in this room right now because there you got to be. I mean, if the door cracks, if something moves, I know she moves over, I know she moves, you know, I mean.

Kind of keep aware of everything going on around you. I've kind of carried it over. What about the chair and the shower? Did you guys do that? Not independent that you had, you was in and out according to what was going on. Most of the time you'd have one of your homeboys or something standing outside the shower with boots on ready to go with somebody trying to, attack you why he was in the shower you and did you have to have someone do that for you I didn't I never was in that but I've seen a lot of guys that did like especially if you were

involved with another gang you know they always did it because they want to make sure that one of the other gang members didn't attack them on the end shower trying to make bones to you know to come up in their position of whatever organization they went I guess I should call it gang the organization is what we call them and did you ever have have to get approached by, you know, white gang members or anything to join them or get recruited? I mean, I've been, I was asked, of course. It's kind of a, all-time recruiting. I think the military recruits, they really recruit.

And you're able to say no respectfully and there's no ramifications. I'm like, no, man, I'm too old to get started. And I was 32 when they came in prison. So trying to join the organization now. So had you a bet, so this goes back to if those penitentiaries were like they are, when you were asked, do you think everything would have turned out very differently than it did? I hope not. I mean, I know what my response would have been.

I don't know how much static I would have behind it, but I ain't joining nothing. I respect that, you know, because there's, I don't know if you've, do you go on YouTube at all or anything like that? I don't. I don't. I barely don't know how to send an email right now. Well, when you do learn how to go on YouTube, you got to look up, like, some of these prison YouTubers who have been in the penitentiary, who, like, describe it as like violent bloodshed you got to join a gang this and that it would be interesting to like see what your thoughts are on that it's dire believe me I meant the violence and the bloodshed lately but after a while man you just uh I guess you kind of come numb to it it's like

for example I'm living in Lexon now they syrin to the place I live you hear it's the fire syrene or umlets or a police car something when I first moved over because I'm not you used to it and you hear it and you hear it but after you're there a while that's just background noise that's kind of like the violence in the panaceansur it is what it is you're going to hear you're going to hear somebody scream somebody and you're going to hear the gunshots out to tower but I'm in after a while that you kind of get numb to it I guess be the best term daily occurrence or weekly occurrence yeah I still kind of like jill when there's loud noises I hate like sirens like really loud jumpy fireworks

things like that, sudden noises. Now, going to your last year in prison, did they prepare you? Did the prison system prepare you? I mean, you're someone that goes in before cell phones, before everything, you know, before, you know, you can look for a job the way you can. Now, anything, did they, how did they prepare you that last year? They basically don't do anything on release preparation. They're supposed to, they got to fund them for it, and they got the departments for it.

They never, nobody spoke to me about nothing about how to find a job. how to do this, how to do that. I mean, I was researching on my own and reading the books and doing everything, you know, you do to kind of have an idea of what's going on, but, no, they ain't really doing anything. How many times do you think you met with your case manager that last year? Maybe twice, I think he met every six months. Even the last year after a 24-year sentence. Which is a good thing, you know, meet the case manager to go in and sign one of their papers they got there and roll out because you got stuff to do.

Yeah, they don't really care. They don't care. Well, you don't. That's what it is. Now that you're out, do you wish there was better preparation for you? They should be better educational programs. They've got them. They've just not implementing them.

They've got the program. They've got the fun. They've got the teachers. But they'll, their idea of furthering education is teach music theory or world history or something of that nature. I mean, guitar. I want a beginning guitar. They've got to.

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I think for the most part I learned about everything. I learned about learning it. I wanted to. The industry, I learned a lot on the end. Especially with the quality department, in fact, I wanted to get a job over in Africa. I don't really, really, nothing. I really want to learn. I didn't learn. I don't get it.

So once you get out, what's that first year like for you? Well, they give us halfway. So I wound up got almost a year right way. So that helped that way. I was able to go there and then kind of go off what everybody else was doing on and where to get a job and do this and do that. It's been a learning experience. You know what?

I got locked up. You get your mouth out and look at where you want to go. She sent me something on the phone. And I type it in Google and tell me turn here, turn here, turn, here, turn, turn, there I am. GPS. Incredible. What was your first meal when you got out after that long? It was a chicken joint.

I think a jack in a box where we stopped on. First thing I left up out of prison. What do you think was the biggest difference in change from when you left? The size of your prison, I guess. Now I got this whole thing out here instead of a little bitty thing in there. Yeah, just to be able to move around and get out. Did you go back to your hometown to see how, like, things have changed buildings? I've been back.

I wasn't able to go back until. Last Friday, I got this monitor took off and I was able to. You had a monitor on you? Yeah. On your wrist? Yeah, when I went home confinement in March. I'm not able to stay at home, but I wore this and had a phone. I've never heard of it being on your wrist.

Yeah, it's the same. I ain't a monitor, but now they got them wearing on wrist like a, it looks like a Fitbit. Oh, so it's really small. Yeah. But you've got to pack the cell phone with you. They give your cell phones. I've got two cell phones and a Fitbit. Oh, wow. I've never heard of that. Interesting. So now you're free and clear.

I got that. I'm just on supervised relief. Okay. How long do you have that for? Three years, hopefully. Okay. I know in like drug cases and gun cases, they tend to kind of release you early. After, I think, a year you can apply for that. Do you feel like you need the supervised release after that long, or do you think it's kind of excessive? I mean, I don't really feel that I need it because I don't really plan on to do anything that's going to get me in trouble. I got a higher monitor anyway. You know, he watches everything I do, so I'm not going to try to mess up to goodness. He's give me another change in life.

I mean, have one or not have one. I don't really see making any difference in my life other than just filling out a little report or him come and see me or whatever. What are your goals now? what's in store for you, what's your future plans? Actually, I just got married Saturday. Oh, congratulations. Starting off on that track. You know, she's the only woman I've been with him 25 years.

So she stayed with you, your whole prison sentence? She didn't, but I haven't been with anybody else, you know what I mean? Yeah. Because I was in prison. Yeah. There's still ways, you know. Anyway, I was starting off on a married life, And I actually got my commercial driver's license back in May.

So I'm going to give me a job, driving commercial vehicle. Right now, I filled out the thing this morning on a republic service. It's out of Lexon. It's a trash company. I got to wait on. They supposed to send me to take urine sample of a background test. If that comes out all right, then I got that job. If not, then I'll keep going to get me a driving job.

It's kind of my goal. and what I got going on right now, man. How weird was it to drive that first time? It was actually weirder riding for the first time when I leave prison and getting in a car. You know, I ain't been in a car in 24 years and here I'm flying up in her, like 70 miles there. It feels like I'm running 700.

Did you automatically remember how to drive the car when you finally did drive? Yeah, actually, I didn't have any difficulty. It just like picked up where left. off you. Yeah, that's awesome. So if you can go back to your, you know, 30-year-old self before you got arrested, what advice would you give to him?

Straighten up, man. I go down the road, I went on. At every opportunity, I had probably 100 people tell me, you know, look here, man. Quit knowing that. Come church with him. I've been where you're at. It ain't going to work out good for you. Okay, I'm hearing him.

I'm not listening to you, you know what I mean? my advice to anybody, if you've got a drug problem and get help, whether it's through recovery, you've got a lot of good people, well and happy if you miss air, you've got like coming recovery people. You've got, I meant, look around, you surround it, but people that's well and happy, where churches or rehabs or whatever's going on.

Can't go alone. It's like, I didn't tell you his part, but a couple months ago, I had a nephew, 31-year-old nephew, passed away on overdose on drugs so that stuff right now man it's killing these young people left and right I'm sorry if you got any if you got any drug trouble I'm trying to find help it only in good now you were saying before that you wish you don't wish that you could take it back why is that do you do you feel like you're the

person you are now because of the prison sentence I mean everything contributes to who I am whether you know it's prison system the church or whatever. I meant to me, man, I've learned I've seen so many people stuck in the past, so many people look in the future. They're just throwing a day away to me. Man, I'm going to try to do me for the day the best I can. Do the best I can before I've got where I'm at. That's my goal. And then tomorrow I'm going to try that same thing. And what happened yesterday? What happened? Today is gone. More I might not come. One day at a time. One day at a time. Do you have a relationship with your kid now? I do. We stay in contact for the most

part. That's good. the more they're old men like I was when I went. They're my age when I went to prison. Yeah, well, you know, they grow. That's one of the big changes you see people around you, you know, grow and get older. It's probably the hardest part of prison, man, watching your children grow up in pictures. There were a few months you get one. And you look at the ones you got in the beginning, you look the one you got in.

Kid you had his old men, when you was like, man, what happened? What did everything go? Did that give you motivation to keep going and kind of stay the course? It did because, I mean, I've showed enough a bad example of people. be a better example of somebody. I mean, I don't want to fall back and cause anybody else to look at my lifestyle and want to follow off into a bad lifestyle I'm living, you know. I've seen that a lot because I wasn't the whole influence, but, you know, you're

influenced on people where it's for good or bad at all times if you're surrounded by them. Well, Davey, thank you so much for coming on the show today and, you know, given us your story and sharing it with the world. And, you know, I'm so happy you're here and you made it through successfully. And I wish you the best in the future. I appreciate you and hope that it's something I said can help somebody. If it is, it's a good day. Well, you know, whenever you have a, you know, someone with the years of experience that you have in these situations

and in the criminal justice system, I think it sheds a lot of light. And it's a little bit of a, we have a lot of adult listeners. It's a little bit of a refresher to know that there's one side of prison and then there's the other side that you're describing. So I think it's awesome to have that perspective. I could give you out of dark by trying to stand in line all I can, man, because there's enough darkness out there. We need light in the world. Well, thank you, Davy. And again, thank you to Jessica for introducing us and I wish you the best.

I appreciate you, man.