Locked In with Ian Bick - Inside My Toxic Marriage to the Wolf of Wall Street & Margot Robbie Playing Me in the Blockbuster Movie | Dr. Nadine Macaluso

Episode Date: December 30, 2024

Dr. Nadine Macaluso shares her personal story of being married to the infamous Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort. In this episode, she gives an inside look at the toxic dynamics of their marriage, what it was like to have her life portrayed by Margot Robbie in the blockbuster movie, and how she rebuilt her life after their relationship ended. Nadine opens up about the lessons she’s learned, the healing process, and where her journey has taken her today. #NadineMacaluso #WolfOfWallStreet #MargotRobbie #ToxicRelationships #TrueStory #LifeAfterDivorce #JordanBelfort #prison Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Dr. Nadine Macaluso: IG: https://www.instagram.com/therealdrnadine/?hl=en Buy her book: https://www.amazon.com/Run-Like-Hell-Therapists-Recognizing/dp/B0CD3CL12G/ref=cm_cr_arp_d_product_top?ie=UTF8 Tiktok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drnaelmft Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/drnaelmft Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/c/TheRealDrNadine Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction and Book Promotion 00:03:06 Inspiration from a Controversial Figure 00:06:22 Overcoming Trauma and Rebuilding Life 00:09:41 Power Dynamics Shift After Arrest 00:12:46 Understanding Trauma Bonds in Relationships 00:15:56 Learning Trust and Radical Acceptance 00:19:07 Arrest and Money Laundering Charges 00:22:10 Navigating Public Attention: Life Before and After the Movie 00:25:23 Journey of Learning and Personal Growth 00:28:28 Transition to Virtual Therapy: Adapting to COVID-19 00:31:40 Navigating Personal Growth: Therapy Journeys and Community Support 00:34:47 Building a Supportive Online Community 00:38:12 Engaging with the Audience through Social Media 00:41:30 Recognizing Red Flags in Relationships 00:44:40 Falling in Love with a Wall: How it Works 00:47:44 Embracing Radical Acceptance and Overcoming Shame Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Visit MyFICO.com or download the MyFICO app to get started today. Dr. Ney, welcome to Lockton. Shout out to Kevin Lannning for making this happen today. Yes, I'm so happy to be here. This just worked out perfectly. Yeah, no one ever comes to Connecticut, like randomly. So it was cool that, and it happened, like, the timing worked out because we were talking last week and you're like, I'll be there next week. Yeah, that's just the way it's meant to be.

Now, I want to plug in your book and your social media right at the top of this episode if you want to tell the audience about the book that you have written and what you do now. Yeah, sure. So I just wrote, I got a book published January 9th of this year called Run Like Hell, a therapist guide to recognizing escaping and healing from trauma bonds. Here it is. And yeah, it was a very, very humbling experience to write a book. But I wrote this book because I'm a therapist. And what was happening was that all these smart, kind, beautiful women were coming into my office in trauma bonds.

And I was like, what the hell is happening? We got to go back to the research. And so I went back to the research and I wrote this book to take away the stigma from the victim in a trauma bond because we're always asking, why does she stay instead of why does he do that? So I just wrote the book to really educate and empower them and validate them. And so far it's going great. That's awesome. We'll have the link to that book in the description. Yeah.

And then you can find me on Instagram at The Real Doctor Nadine. TikTok, which I think is the wild west of social media, Dr. Ney, N-A-E-L-M-F-T. And, of course, my website, Dr.nai.com. I have tons of free resources, assessments, trauma bond assessment, pathological lover assessment, all these great assessments for free to educate people. Do you feel that more people are into your social media because of your past life or because of what you've built now? I think it's a combination.

I think there's something about having street cred and professional cred that is a really unique combination and then of course having a movie that gross $500 million worldwide helps. But yeah, I think it's a combination. And it's also interesting that you waited this long to write a book. Yeah, you know, I wish I could say that I had some grand scheme, but I didn't. And, you know, when the movie came out, The Wolf of Wall Street, I was about to, I think I was getting my doctorate two years later, but I was already a therapist. And I really, when the movie came out, I had nothing to say.

You know, I'm not just going to speak for the sake of speaking. But then as I started, like I said, work with women and I had this movie that really was one of the most misogynistic movies on the planet, right, that shows the quintessential trauma bond. I got to exploit it for my own purposes. And it just, so I talked when I actually had something to say. Yeah. I mean, it's really fascinating. I was always curious what happened to you and your character because we see Jordan's character like in real life and the like I read his books when I was in prison, which is ironic. And he wrote it while he was in prison.

Yeah. And he kind of inspired like my writing style for the book I'm working on. Oh, good. And like kind of like his, what he did kind of inspired me to do what I did. But I also made a lot of TikToks about him calling him a snitch that one viral. So I don't know if he'd be too fond of that. You know, I think the one thing about my ex-husband is. that clearly he's fine with showing himself, right?

And he wrote the book. He made the movie. And he calls it a cautionary tale. So, you know, when you put yourself out there, right, that's going to happen. Yeah. And I was watching one of your clips recently where you said, like, this is like your owning, like, why are you talking about the Wolf of Wall Street stuff now? And I thought that was great. Like, that related to me so much because we used those past.

You know, traumatic experiences to our advantage to help grow something bigger. That's right. That's right. And, you know, the past, while painful, as you know, it doesn't have to define us, but it can inspire us. And because here's the thing, the body and the brain only grow from threat. Nobody comes to therapy like, hey, Dr. Ney, I'm feeling great today. Can you help me?

You know, people come because they're on their knees, right? And but that being on your knees and feeling like the world is falling apart is a great impetus to look inside and grow. Absolutely. So where did you grow up? Where are you from? I grew up in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, hence the Duchess of Bay Ridge. And I was very blessed. I grew up in Brooklyn in the 70s, which was an incredible time to live.

No internet. Kids played on the street. And my mother, I was raised by a single mother who was very into psychologists. And so she was reading Sigmund Freud and Carl Young in the 70s. And she was very psychological, hence why I became a therapist. My daughter's a therapist. And I could always talk about my feelings. There was no yelling in my home.

I had a very peaceful home. And then I met Jordan. Were you always into like that mindset? So that's something that's not portrayed really in the movie. No. Oh, no, no, no. No, the movie doesn't go into the depth of my character, but that's okay. Right? Because really, I was an ancillary object, I think, in the end, you know, with my ex.

And so that's how I'm portrayed in the movie. But no, I've always been a deeply spiritual, deeply psychological person from when I was really a little girl. And the day you guys met that was portrayed in the movie. That was correct. That was real. At the party. Yep. Yep.

Somebody exposed themselves to me. And I was like, we have to get the fuck out of here. These people are nuts. When you look back on it now, do you wish that never happened? No. No, because I wouldn't have my children. And, you know, I mean, listen, I'm 56 years old, right? And so I'm old enough to know that life has a course of its own.

Like, we can show up and do the footwork, as I like to say, but then there is a part of life. I think that we have to surrender into that is our fate. What did your mom think about that new lifestyle? Because that's not what you kind of... Yeah, you know, my mom was a very intelligent woman. And when I told her I was going to get married, she took me to lunch. And she said, my mother was English. And she said, you know, my love, you don't have to do this.

And I said, but mom, I love them. And that's it. We got married. I feel like the Duchess of Bay Ridge is such as like an iconic name. It is. Especially because years later, you have like the Megan Markle stuff. and everything that was actually duchesses and all of that. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah, I mean, really, I'm a Duchess doctor now. So that to me is more important

label for me, right? Ten years of schooling. I worked very hard to get that label. But yeah, it's funny. You know, I take it all with a grain of salt. It was a long time ago. And, you know, when the movie came out, I was in therapy. I had nauseam about it because there was so many feelings to process, right? You know, going through something that really was very traumatic. And I moved to California. And I was like, okay, that's behind me. And then there's the book. And then there's the movie. And so there was a deep process of surrendering to like, okay, nay, this is bigger than you. You just got to surrender and see what emerges. And I offer that to people because if you're facing something that really seems overwhelming, sometimes there is a beauty

and letting go and letting life take its course. And that's what I did. When you had walked away from the Willful Wall Street and that, did you ever, like, did a part of you know that it was going to be a book or documented the way it did? I could have never imagined that. No, I had no idea. No idea. And I, you know, I walked away, like I said, with just my kids and my curtains. I walked away with zero money because I didn't want any of that money. It was all blood money, right? And so I had to really rebuild again at 31. 31, yeah. How long were you guys actually together for? Seven to eight years. So it wasn't that long of a run. No, but it was a deep one. As my father says, it's not the years, it's the miles. And your dad was around during that time? My dad was around too, yep. What did he think?

Well, my dad loved it. He loved it because he's kind of like a charming con man himself. And so he was all for it. He was all for it. And what about your kids? What? What? What? What do they think about everything? You know, my kids are amazing, amazing children. And I was very blunt with them, you know, because when I left Jordan, I had gone to a place called the Karen Foundation. And I went for a week to really learn about myself. And so when I felt very prepared to deal with them with this.

And I just said, your dad was a drug addict and abusive. And that's why I left him. So I didn't go into like your dad's bad or I didn't disparage him. I was very factual. So, and Jordan moved to California after I moved to California to be with his children. So I had him over for every holiday. We were very close. And so when the movie came out, they were like, that's my dad.

Ah, so you guys formed a new type of relationship, like a friendship after. We did. We had, yes, we really came together and could co-parent. Because in a trauma bond, which is what I write about, there are two components. And the first component is a power embassment. And he had the power, clearly, right? When he got arrested, the power imbalance shifted and we were equals. And so I think that really shifted our relationship and we were able to become friends for our children.

Did you ever visit him in prison? No. What my kids did. Why did you never visit him? Oh, I had no desire to do that. I was married and with my current husband. And, yeah, no, my kids went with my uncle and my aunt and they took them. once or twice, I think.

Yeah, he was there only for 22 months, too. Yeah, a short time. Yeah, a short time. He got less time than me, and he had a whole lot more money. He did get less time than you. I'm sorry about that. It's okay. Like we were saying out there, it was the best thing that could have happened to me.

Yeah. Now, Margot Ravi plays you in the movie. Correct. Did you get to talk to her? I did. Yeah, I did. Did she, like, study you? Yeah, she did.

They wanted to get my accent, my Brooklyn accent, because, you know, she has an Australian an accent. And so I was actually taking my daughter to college. And so it was like such a surreal moment. Jop my daughter off at college and then went back to the hotel. I think I was at the Mercer Hotel. And she met me there with a speech coach. And so they taped me and interviewed me and for many hours and then we took her to dinner. Wow. And she wasn't as big as she is now. No, this was her breakup movie. She was 22. So she was the age that I was when I met Jordan. What did you think about that whole experience? You know, again, it's so surreal and it was so, weird, but she was lovely. And she said to me, she said, you know, when we took her to dinner,

my husband and I, she said, you know, I'm really afraid to be naked and I don't want to tell them. I don't want to tell Marty and Leo. And I said, well, that feeling right there that you have speaking truth to power, that's how I felt my whole marriage that I couldn't. So if you can embody that, I think you'll get how I felt. Do you feel that your relationship with him set you up for what you do now work-wise, like helped you in a way? Yeah, I think, again, you know, when I became a therapist, I never said, you know, oh, I want to just work with, I want to be a trauma bond whisperer. Like, you know, I never thought that, oh, this was the niche that I wanted to work in.

I wanted to work with everybody. But again, based upon what was happening in the zeitgeist, like we were hearing Jeffrey Epstein, Harvey Weinstein, the priest, the Boy Scout leaders, right? There was just so much abuse of power in the culture. And then I saw it in the microcosm in my room. And so I guess I just like what was happening in the culture with what I had experienced. And then what was happening in my therapy room all combined just really inspired me to become a huge advocate for women. I mean for people because it happens to men too.

So I don't want to leave men out of the picture out of these toxic abusive relationships. Do you have male clients? I do. Okay. I do. Is it very different from the female client or their similarities? You know, I think at the end of the day, human beings, as different as we are, is as similar as we are, you know, think we're, we just, we all want to be authentic and we all want to be in relation to each other. And we want it to be peaceful, but that just doesn't often happen.

We have to learn how to do that. What about families, like a mom and dad and a child? Is that type of bond, the trauma bond, a similarity there too? It can happen. It can happen between lovers. It can happen between a boss and an employee. It can happen between parent and child. It can happen between friends because really it's a toxic dysfunctional relationship

between two emotionally attached people. And usually one of the partners, you know, is abusive, uses coercion, and often betrays the other person. Yeah, I see it so much in the guest I interview. they have very, very traumatic childhoods. And that almost in every case, well, it does in every case that I've seen lead them on a path of addiction or prison. Yeah, yeah, because, you know, I wrote my dissertation on developmental trauma.

And that is what, you know, babies are born pretty perfect and then just put them in front of a dysfunctional adult to fuck them up, you know. And but that's because their parents didn't know how to love and nurture and take care of them and attuned to their emotions. And I always say, you know, you need a license to drive a car, but you don't need a license to do the most important job in the world. And unfortunately, parents that don't know how to love be good enough parents because there's no such thing as a perfect parent. They pass on that trauma to their children until somebody comes along and breaks that intergenerational. USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day like superheroes and sidekicks or

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which is way more than anyone can do on their own. If we find anything suspicious, like new loans or changes to your financial accounts, we alert you right away. All through text, phone, email, or the LifeLock app. Get the alerts that could. make all the difference. Save up to 30% your first year at lifeblock.com slash podcast. Terms apply. Trauma cycle. Were you worried that the trauma from, you know, your first marriage with Jordan would

rub off onto your kids? Of course. Yeah. That's one of the reasons I left him. And how did you prevent that? Because they were already a little older. They were five and three. So I prevented it by being a good enough parent myself, even though it's the hardest job in the world. And then my current husband and I, we created a really, I think, safe, albeit imperfect home for them. And then we've all just been in therapy forever. Even now you're in therapy yourself. I just stopped going to therapy. I was in therapy for 25 years. My daughter's a therapist. My children have been in therapy since they're 16. And we come from a family due to my mother where we talk about how we feel. And it's really that simple, you know, giving people the space to talk about how they feel and process, how they

feel without shaming, dismissing them, punishing them. Why do you think men are so against therapy? Especially in prison, I see that. It's like almost you're made fun of for that. Well, I think because, you know, we haven't really taught men that it's okay to feel. You know, we haven't taught men that it's okay to be vulnerable and it's okay to be human. You know, we've forced upon them these gender roles that are really hard to meet, I think, sometimes.

And so then they feel shame. for being human. Was it hard to put yourself back out there after leaving that first marriage? Yeah, of course. Yeah, because I'm like, who am I going to trust? I can't trust anybody. Everybody's crazy. But then I learned actually it wasn't as much about trusting the other person.

It was about trusting me and trusting me and making a right choice. And life is messy, right? And I think if we come to radical acceptance around that, it makes it a lot easier to deal with. But yeah, it was hard to trust. Were you even looking for that type of lifestyle that the Wolf of Wall Street gave you? No, I don't even think I knew that sort of lifestyle existed. Yeah, it seems very off from who you are as a person. As you're getting to know me?

Yeah. Yeah. You know, listen, I like nice things. Like, don't get me wrong. They're fun. But I didn't even know a world like that existed. Nobody in Brooklyn was driving Ferraris and had yachts and private planes. and no, I didn't even know a world like that existed.

And it's not really what life is about. So is it hard to go from that then to, I would say, maybe a normal marriage or a relationship? No, it wasn't hard. I was just so grateful to feel safe and peaceful, honestly, you know, because it was so dramatic and erratic and traumatic from the yacht sinking to the plane crashing to his drug addiction to, you know, every day was like a different drama. And honestly, that's exhausting for your nervous. So I was just so happy to be peaceful.

When that yacht just sunk recently, did you think about your experience during that? I did. Yeah, I did. Actually, I think Jordan might have texted me when that happened. Yeah. Yeah, it's freaky. Yeah, that's what I thought of as soon as I read that article, I thought right back to. Yeah, we could have, we could have, I definitely thought we were going to die that night for sure. But we got just like the movie shows, we got saved. What was, would you say as like the biggest misconception of the movie? The biggest misconception of the movie is that Jordan and I never fought about women. We always fought about his drug addiction.

But it's interesting that he chose to write it like that. Like the splashing of the water. Yeah, I never did that. You never did that? I never did that. I probably should have. You should have said that, though. Yeah.

It makes you more of a badass in the moment. No, I never, I never threw. I did throw a tropic can of juice. jar at his head. But I never did water in his face. But we really thought about his drug addiction because that was really hard for me to deal with as a young woman who had never experienced anything like that. So why do you think he wanted to portray himself as a womanizer wanting to like, you know, get into fights with you about women and whatnot? I don't really know. Maybe that protected him in some way, you know. I don't know. Maybe he thought it was sexier. It was funnier. It was

better, you know, for the audience? I don't know. But yeah, no, we really fought about his drug addiction. Maybe that's a little darker, you know? And the feds and when they got involved, were you ever a target of their investigation? They would like threaten me and say if you don't, well, what happened is, the night the Jordan got arrested, they came, they came, he was already arrested and I had actually gone out to get my son's blankie. He had left it at somebody's house. And when I came back, I was like, like all these FBI with the what the with the flashlights like in my driver I'm like oh fuck what's happening and so they're like oh your husband's been arrested on 11 counts of money laundering do you know what that is I'm like isn't that like what mobsters do I didn't know like don't they like put money through a business or something and so then what they did which they which was really wrong that they did this to me they took him away and they grilled me for four hours alone without a lawyer. But of course they did. That's what they do.

That's what they do. But I wish somebody would have told me, you know, but anyway, they had a woman there to make me feel safe, and they grilled me and grilled me. And they would say, if you don't tell us this, but I knew I did nothing. You know, what were they going to arrest me for, going to Barney's New York too many times?

You know, so, but it was scary, and but I'm a badass, and I know Dr. I'm not doctor, what's his name, Coleman, The FBI agent. The FBI agent, he was there. And he had interviewed, he had, like, not interviewed, but, like, pressured one of my friends.

And so when he left, it was funny, he was really close in my face. And he goes, so what did your friends say about me? I go, they say you're a fucking dick. That's funny. That was pretty balsy to say that to an FBI guy. But I'd had it. I was like, leave me alone. And then, you know, and then that was it.

Did you know what Jordan was doing was illegal during your marriage to him? You know, I didn't know exactly what he was doing because he's like a genius. He's a financial masterminds. But I'm sure there was plenty of it that wasn't kosher. But it didn't matter what I thought. Nobody's going to – he wasn't going to listen to me. Do you relate your experience to some of the women that do maybe date, like, say, people that are kind of in the criminal world? but the woman doesn't necessarily know that they're in the criminal world but has suspicions of it.

Yeah. But it is kind of attached to them emotionally or might have kids with them. Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, listen, there's when you're dealing with a very powerful person, right, there's nothing that a wife can do or say that's really going to make a difference. I mean, he didn't listen to me about his drug addiction. He didn't, you know, he wasn't going to listen to me about that.

So that's his own way of being in the world. Were you worried that your kids would get passed down any addiction issues? Oh, sure. Yeah. But again, you know, we're talking about it. We're addressing it. If it has ever come up for them, we're on top of it, right? In our family, clearly everything's an open book.

Very much so. Right? Literally and figuratively. Yeah. Yeah. So speaking of open books, when you meet your current husband now who's out here listening, when you meet him and you said you met him on a blind date, do you tell him on the first date who you are?

Yeah, totally. That was the first date conversation. Yeah. And he didn't care. Wow. Did he know of Jordan? No, because you have to remember, like, back then before the book or the movie, people didn't really know.

And he lived in California, right? And I was in New York. So I don't know if he really knew about him. But, of course, I told him everything. You know, that would be kind of bad to dump it on him 10 days later. Oh, by the way. No, he knew and he was okay with it. And was it hard for him when the book and the movie did come out?

I don't think so. I don't know. I mean, I think it would be weird. Like, he'd be on the golf course and people would be like, I saw your wife naked in the movies. Like, that's not my wife. You know, so I think that's funny. But I think, you know, we've all made the best of it.

And I think the moral of the story is that even though we went through some very traumatic, toxic, dysfunctional times, you know, we've come out on the other side. And I think that's what gives people hope. How long did it take you to decide until you wanted to go back to school? Oh, I didn't go back to school until I was 39. Oh, that late. Yeah. So what year would that have been? So that was 2007. So right when he wrote the book, I think. Yeah. And he was already out of prison by that point. Yes. He was just out of prison. Yes. Yeah. Did you work like a regular job or anything during those years? So what I did is I was a garment manufacturer with my husband. So when I was with Jordan, I had created a little maternity company and had a website

in a store and a catalog. And so I had that business when I left him. Ah, that's so cool. Yeah. And so I was doing that. And then I was meditating a lot in L.A. Because that's what we do. And then I was like, I'm going to go back to school to be a therapist because I knew that therapy

had saved me. Because the second I met Jordan, I put my ass into therapy at 20, I was like, this is way too much for me to manage. And I put myself in therapy. And I believe that therapy saved my life. Wow, you were in therapy during the events of everything. The whole time. So why do you think that like a movie that's powerful as that doesn't portray that at all?

Because that could be a positive message. Because again, I think it was his narrative, you know, and I think it was his lens. And that's okay. Did anyone ever approach you to share your narrative? You mean like after the movie? Or before or in general? No, not really. No, it happened just much more after the movie.

Yeah. Interesting. Yeah. So how long did schooling take for you for what you have now? Oh, God. So it was two years to get my master's. Five years to get my doctorate. So seven to eight years.

Seventy eight years. Where did you go to school? Pacifica Graduate Institute in Santa Barbara. Okay. Is that a good school? Amazing. It's made for adults. So you go once, you go for three days every month and then you live on campus with your cohort and then you come home and do all the work.

Oh, so you're living on campus with people that are in your age group. Yeah. So that must make it a lot more comfortable. Yeah, it was amazing. It was really very, very, very special experience, actually. Now, what kind of lifestyles are those people coming from? Just normal people that just, you know, want to be therapists that just, you know, maybe they've been in therapy or maybe they've been through trauma, you know, A lot of therapists have been through trauma.

They just want to make a difference in the world. What do you think was the biggest thing you learned about yourself during that time period of going back to school? I'm the biggest nerd. I love school. My husband teases me. I love to write papers. I love to study.

I love to learn. But again, I think that was really instilled in me from a young girl. Even when I was with Jordan, he makes fun of me in the book about it, how I went to school to cook. I went to school to be an interior designer. Like, I went to school to learn about wine. I like to learn. I just, I don't know, I'm just addicted to learning.

Oh, you went to culinary school too? I went to, I like to classes for all these things. Because if I'm going to buy an expensive bottle of wine or Louis the 14th chair, I want to know what I'm doing. Because this, again, this was a whole new world for me. I wasn't used to having $2,000 bottle of wine. I didn't know if it was a grape or a place. So I just like to learn.

So going back to school, also, I think. think what it did for me is it immensely built my confidence because education is just so empowering. Do you view money in those objects differently now after, you know, experiencing it at such a young age and then losing it and then maybe gaining it back after? Do you look at it all differently? Yeah. I just realize it's just stuff. It's just stuff at the end of the day, you know, just stuff. that we don't, you know, it doesn't matter whether we have it or whether we don't have it. Now, do we need food and, like, heat and electricity and water and the essentials? And does money make life better to a certain degree?

But I do see it, and I see this with my patients all the time. I think a certain amount of money, unless it's with a person who's highly emotionally intelligent, really causes a lot of harm, especially if you're dealing with an entitled, arrogant person. Yeah, I don't think you need necessarily crazy amounts. Like I look at now, like if I think a few hundred thousand a year is cool. Like I don't know if you need millions. Exactly. Like what would I do with it?

Yeah. And I think that like I said, in the hands of the wrong people, they really abuse that power and they exploit people. As we're seeing with Piddi, I mean, you know, culture just shows us that it's really not always the best thing in the wrong hands. Now, after you graduate, how long did it take you to start your own business or do you go and work for someone else? So you have to do 3,000 hours to get a license as a therapist. So that's why I always say to people that say they can't afford therapy, go find a person who's training because I made $5 an hour for 3,000 hours. And so that takes about five years between the schooling and the licensure. but you're working, gaining those hours.

Then you have to take two state tests. And then I had my practice. Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that about finding someone that's in training. Yeah, I always say that on every podcast I go on because to offer people like look for the helpers. They're out there. Wow. That's incredible.

Yeah. I got to look at that. Yeah. So how do you feel about kind of like these online therapy sites and virtual that COVID kind of created? You know, if I got my. my PhD in somatic psychotherapy, which means it's about like when a body meets a body. You know, there's nothing like being in person. And if you would have told me that I would have been doing virtual therapy, I would have said, get out of here. But now I do it all day long.

Was that only because of COVID? Only because of COVID. I used to have an office where everybody came. But now, just because of COVID, I do it all the time. And I work with women all over the world. Yeah, there is something about that in-person body connection. That's why I only do like the in-person. Yeah, no, there really is. There really is. But, you know, there is a convenience of being able to do it through Zoom and I can reach a lot more people that way. I mean, that is the beauty of the internet. Have you met like interesting celebrities or famous people through therapy? Yes. I've worked. That's what I say, whether you're a celebrity or a judge or a lawyer or a teacher or a housewife. It doesn't matter.

Anybody and everybody can fall prey to a trauma bond. Is that like a common denominator you see across all of these types of people? What do you mean? Like that even people that are high and powerful are still humans and people too. Yeah. We're all just human suffering beings. What were some of the struggles of starting your own practice in those early days? really just doing the hours, you know, the actual, the amount of hours.

There wasn't really a lot of struggle for me because I'd been in therapy so long and I just, I think I'm just really good at my job. This is what I was meant to do. I just found it a little later. So for any of you, late bloomers, don't give up, you know. There wasn't really that much of a struggle. I mean, just doing the actual work is a grind. I mean, doing the work and studying for all the tests.

I mean, that's not easy. But again, when you face those challenges and those obstacles, and then you come out the other side, that's the only... Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airway's sale is on now. Fly nonstop roundtrip to Fiji from just 748. Or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with round trip fairs starting from 839.

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That's the real real real. Terms apply. The only way to build real self-esteem. Yeah. On the topic of what you just said about late bloomers, a lot of people that come on the show are people that are getting out of prison in their 30s or 40s or 50s. What advice do you give to them about starting over and rebuilding? And a lot of these individuals have no relationship with their kids too. Yeah, that anything.

is possible. Human beings, we are beyond resilience and that no matter what you've experienced, no matter how much trauma you've experienced, I think there's an innate capacity in each of us to reach for healing and to reach our potential. But you can't do it alone. Resilience cannot be built alone and that's why therapy works. So reach out for the helpers. Look for people that can support you. Find a community that will be part of this process of you coming home to yourself. and I know it can happen. How long do clients typically stay with you for? Oh, God, I've had some for nine years, some for a month.

Wow. I guess that helps with the virtual aspect that you could keep them as people's lives change and they move and whatnot. Yeah, yeah. Or sometimes, you know, they'll come to me for the first two years once a week and then they'll come once a month or maybe they're in a crisis and they need three times that week. The way I work is I have a scheduling link and I just say, here's my scheduling link once they've taken their assessment. and become part of my practice, you make an appointment when you want. Now, do you do general therapy too?

Like, just like whatever the classification that is? Yeah, I can do anything. You know, I was trained. But right now I would say I mostly work with women trying to escape these dysfunctional relationships or heal from these dysfunctional relationships. How often do you see yourself bringing your past experiences that were in the public eye into, you know,

your conversations with individuals? You know, it depends on only if it's appropriate, right? Only if it's appropriate to the situation. And, you know, because that's what's changed about therapy, right? The old rules of therapy was that the therapist was a blank screen and never really shared their story. But, I mean, I have no choice. Everybody knows mine.

But if it's appropriate and it resonates and it makes them feel validated and less shameful because there's a lot of shame when you're in a toxic relationship, then I will bring it up to them. It definitely gives you a ton of straight credit. It really does. So now tell us about social media, how you got into that world and what that was like to build your platforms. Yeah, that was, you know, I got on Instagram a long time ago, like 2013.

Okay. In the early days of Instagram. And I met my husband be like, why are he always on Instagram? I was like, I don't know. I guess it worked out. So I just, you know what? I just started to build it, build it, and we posted every single day. And, you know, that's the thing about life, whether it's in a relationship, whether it's in a

career, whether it's how you love your partner, how you love your children. Consistency is king. Yeah, I post every day since the last two years when I started. Yeah. And so then I built my Instagram. And then about two to three years ago, one of my young patients says, you have to go on TikTok. I'm like, I am not going on TikTok. I'm 54.

I don't want to film myself every day. I'm an introvert. So it really took me a very long time to be comfortable with all these damn videos I do. And I did it. And then I started to talk about the movie and it just went viral. Well, because people want to hear,

I feel like for so long, I was a senior in high school in 2013 when it came out. Yeah. So in my mind, you were one of the icons of the story. I think it was more of you because of who played you. Right. than Jordan, but it was just, I don't know, it was interesting, but no one ever heard from you. Yes. And so then it went viral. And I was like, oh, okay. She was right. She was right. She gets free therapy forever.

And shout out to Alex. And yeah, so then I just, and now I love it because I love my community. And we have such a beautiful special bond. And I answer all my direct messages myself, while I still can. And I don't know, it's just become a very beautiful space to help people heal. That goes a long way answering messages. I try to answer all my messages and be responsive because your next best patient or story or podcast guests could be in there. Yeah.

And I want to really, I learn a lot from them. You know, they're in the thick of it. You know, they're on ground zero dealing with this. And sometimes just a little like you can do this goes a long way. Do you find social media negatively affecting some of your clients? Not mine. Not mine. Okay.

Even if they're seeing other relationships or anything like that. Yeah, I mean, not mine because my audience is very hungry for information about narcissism and trauma bonds because it's so painful to be in a trauma bond that they want any information that can help them. You know, it would be an interesting conversation to have you sit down with like one of those like, one of those like, fraud guys like a Jordan like doing that type of interview and dissecting you know their brain and stuff because a lot of those guys do share those narcissistic traits and stuff a lot of yes there's a lot of them in the world as we've seen yeah you should start a podcast you know I just I'm too busy right now but do you think it's unlimited content clips everything I know I know yeah not right this second but um you know I I guess maybe also because I'm talking to people

all day long. Yeah. So what's like a typical day like for you now? So I wake up. I usually try to work out if I can. I like to lift weights. I'm a big weightlifter since I'm 18. I love to lift weights. And then I just start my day, you know, just on my Zooms. I usually do maybe two podcasts a week. And I'm just working on Zoom with them. And that's it. Do you ever feel yourself getting tired of sharing your story? No, I don't, not yet. I guess you've started kind of recently. Yeah, no, not yet because you know what I think is like if my story can help one person think that, okay, there's hope, I can get out of this trauma, I can heal from trauma, I can get to the other side, then it's a good day. You know, at the end of the day, what are we all here for?

you know, and there's a really important term that's used in Jungian psychology called generativity. And it's like, you know, you get older and what legacy are you leaving? You know, do you want to make the world a better place? And I do. What do you think was a major mind shift for you to start posting about your past life? What happened was, I think, oh, what happened was, okay, so there was this one post where Cinderella. You know the scene when Margarabi's going like this? Yeah. And so somebody did a thing where they put Cinderella in that position of Margarabi and did, I think, Leo as the prince or something. Or I forgot. Yeah, Cinderella was. And I did,

I said, oh, what did I say? I said, your prince can turn into wolf, but it's okay, you can become a doctor. I just did that one post as a goof. And again, it went crazy. So what happens is I just read the audience. The more I posted about it, the more engaged they were. So that just led me to believe, like, okay, they want more of this. I really didn't know that they did, which I know sounds silly, but I just, I'm so clinical, and I get so academic. That's why even with my book, when my publisher told me the title, I was like,

that's not academic enough. They were like, Nadine, it's the right title. So I just, it was hard for me, I think, to move away from that clinical piece of it. and sometimes it's still hard, but it just, it works. Did the publisher want to, you know, bring up your old identity at all for a title or anything in the branding? No, because we really didn't, we really wanted it to be not a memoir. I wanted to be a book to help people. And how is it structured, like in different chapters?

Yeah, so what happens is in the beginning. So the first three chapters are, I talk about what a trauma bond is. and I talk about the pathological partner, and I talk about the woman usually or the other, the victim and the trauma bond. And then the middle is about the scars you get, how to escape, no, why women leave or why people leave and how to leave safely. Because actually the most dangerous time is when a person wants to leave. And then the third section is all about how to heal. So why do you think that people struggle to leave in these types of relationships? Oh boy, that's a big question.

But the reason why they struggle to leave is because when you're in a trauma bond with this pathological person, they wear two masks. And I call the two masks Romeo and Dirty John. So 30% of the time they're like Romeo, they're loving, they're generous, they're kind, they're helpful. 70% of the time they're cruel, controlling, sadistic mean. But it's called intermittent reinforcement when there's like two different behaviors. that they're always showing you, right? It keeps you very confused. And so you don't know, is he good or is he bad?

Am I crazy? Is he crazy? Is relationship good or bad? So you're constantly confused and you're always hopeful that that 30% part is the real part, but it's not. So it's just very hard to leave

because you've become emotionally attached. What it is is they seduce you and they get you attached to them but then they switch. And so it's then you're attached to them and then you're bonded to them. And it's that intermittent reinforcement that actually bonds you to them.

So what are the warning signs to look for? You're like, wait, I don't want to be in that. How do I not get there? No, but like is there actual warning signs? There's actual warning signs. So we call them red flags, right? And so if you meet somebody and they tell you all their exes are crazy,

why are they all crazy? Right? Or if they're constantly the victim, or if you notice they blame people all the time. If they have a substance use problem, right, that's a huge red flag. If they're obsessed with you and jealous and possessive in like the first four weeks, or if they tell you they love you, their soulmate in two weeks, run like hell. It's a problem.

So I have a whole pathological lover checklist in my book and on my website. Now, some of these are hideable, I feel like. Oh, very hideable. Like you wouldn't know a lot of that. I mean, love bombing, yes, you would see that. Yeah. And attachment and craziness. But other stuff, like I've known people that have been on the show where their spouse didn't know they had a drug issue for a while.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. You know, because when you're a manipulative person and you're intentionally manipulating someone but the other person doesn't know you're intentionally manipulating them, then how would you know? You just think, oh, this is who this person is. But they're showing you their best side, which we all do to a point. right? I mean, I think we all, I'm showing you my best side today. You're showing me, right? You're not going to see me at my worst. But it's different when the intention behind the behavior is for manipulation. Now, do you think someone can get to know someone through social media, like watching someone on a podcast or watching clips of them to like to understand who they are as a person and their character? Is that possible? Probably. Yeah. I ask that because I'll have people that reach out to me that, like, in a way they kind of know me because they'll listen to show and they know more about me than I could ever have learned of them in that time period.

Sure. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. That's interesting. I'm very fascinated with like that whole. With that parasycial relationship? Just with everything. Just like relationships, like why people stay in relationships and why people get into those relationships. And I see that just really is common themes for throughout the show. Yeah, and it's, you know, listen, we're social beings. We're built for connection. We want to love.

We want to be loved. And so I think it's very hard when you go into a relationship, just wanting love and connection. But then the whole thing blows up in your face. It's very painful. So what do you think then as a fair amount of time to develop love for someone? Oh, I would say definitely a few months, like six months. because you have to really get to know somebody and see how they behave. And I mean, listen, you can feel lost for someone.

And your hormones can be, you know, driving you towards that. But that's different than love, which is like warm, the empathy, quality of connection, giving someone the space to be who they are. All right. So I have a question. And I'm only going to ask you this because I've been watching it. Yeah. And people are going to rip me for it.

but love is blind. Do you think that's real? Oh, the show? Yeah, like, can someone actually develop love for someone blindly marry them and feel that that quickly? Oh, I, you know, I haven't, I think I've watched the show a little bit. So essentially, they don't even meet each other. So how do they fall in love? Well, they say, I love you and propose to them behind, you know, a wall.

And it's over a few dates, really. So they're behind walls. Yeah, and you're like speed dating essentially. And you're just talking to each other through a wall and you fall in love. Yeah. And then you propose to them and then you meet them after. Do any of these relationships last? Some get married.

Some don't. In the newest season two of like the eight couples end up getting married. Wow. I'd be curious to see what happens to these relationships. You should make content about that too. Yeah. I don't know that I believe that that could be possible. Yeah.

But I bet you it makes for good entertainment. Oh, it really does. I think it's so corny and silly. that that's why it's like entertainment. It's really interesting. Yeah, I watch little pieces of it. I don't know that that is what I would define is love. Do you watch reality TV shows?

I love reality TV. What's the favorite? Oh, I love the Real Housewives. I watch all of them. It's my guilty pleasure. What's the best one that you like? Well, right now I'm loving Salt Lake. You know, I mean, I have to say, I have mixed opinions.

about it because I'm going to be a hypocrite right now. I love it because it's my guilty pleasure, but I also get upset that the women are my age and act the way they do. But that's life, isn't it? Everything's a paradox. But yeah, no, I do love it. You know, a few of them have been going to prison. That's a crazy part. I was with Teresa's husband at Fort Dix in New Jersey. Oh, you are? Yeah, I was with him. Would you see Joe? I saw it. I was in the lunch line with him one day. I was on his side because it's split into two yards. Wow. So I'm split. I was trying to get her on the show, but she doesn't really like to talk about prison.

I'm sure she doesn't. That's probably really painful thing for her. Yeah, a lot of the celebrities that kind of like you encounter, they don't necessarily talk about prison. They go to prison, but they don't talk about it. It's not really the norm to talk about it on like podcasts. Because they feel so much shame, you think? I don't know. What do you think it is?

I would think that. Yeah. I mean, I've never been in prison, so I have so much empathy for you, the fact that you endured that. And I don't think prison is like, I wish it was more reformative, you know. But I would think that there would be a lot of shame around that. So it was very brave of you to do what you do. Thank you. Well, it took me a while.

I worked out Whole Foods for four years when I got out and worked my way up. And then my friend convinced me like what happened to you to go on TikTok. Okay. And my fifth video about being in solitary for six months when viral. like 1.5 million views overnight. So there you knew. Then you knew you had something. And I doubled down on it.

And now I post five episodes a week of this podcast and just get to interview people. And do you find that now that you've kind of exposed yourself and you're like almost have like radical acceptance around what happens to you? Do you find, do you feel yourself freer around the whole experience? Yeah, I think for so many years I was so embarrassed by prison. Yeah, shame. Yeah. That's what society, I think. you know, puts upon you.

Of course. It's a huge shame factor. Yeah. And so I would never talk about a family who would ask friends. But now I mean, I talk about it for a living. Like I'm building a prison cell upstairs. Yeah. So we're free you.

They're like, don't you get PTSD from that? No, but see, see, so that brings us almost full circle to our conversation, right? Is that talking about it, processing it, owning it, having radical acceptance around the things that happen to us, free us. Yeah. It really is fascinating. And another thing you said that stuck out to me was that you said you're introverted. Yes. But you talk to people like publicly or privately or like you're socializing with them. And I feel like I relate to that because I don't, I feel like I'm introverted. But yet I do this type of dynamic. Yeah. Well, an introversion really just means that an extroversion really just means how you recharge.

So I recharge by writing, by being solitary, by being reflective, meditating, contemplate. Like, I'm, you know, that's how I recharge. That doesn't mean I can't be social and do these things, but it's really more about how you recharge. Like, my husband's an extrovert. He recharges by going to the supermarket and talking to every single person in the supermarket. Not me. I look down. I don't talk to anybody. I can't do that. Right. So you're just naturally more introverted.

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Get yours now at Los Angeles FWC26.com. But that doesn't mean we can't do these things. It's just that's not how you recharge. So that's probably a good balance and an introvert and an extrovert to some extent, though. It is. It's a very good balance, yes. Wow, incredible. So now what advice would you give to the audience, you know, anyone that's going through

struggling time, struggling to leave a relationship or just anything in general, rebuilding? Well, I think, you know, what we just kind of touched on, that whatever you're facing right now in life, it's not forever. look at the part that you play in it, right? Because we have to take accountability for the mistakes that we've made, which I've made plenty. And that's okay, that just means you're human. There's no reason to feel shame about it

because shame I think the word shame, the root word is skim, which means to hide. So we want to hide, right? Don't hide. Reach out to the helpers. They're everywhere. Like Mr. Rogers, you're too young for Mr. Rogers. No, I watched it.

You did? Okay. So he says, look for the helpers. Look for the helpers. Don't push past the shame. Reach out for help. Reach out to an intern. Go to a church counselor. Go to somebody. Go to A.A. Go for help and just start to process what's happened to you. And day by day, little by little, you will rebuild your life. It is possible. Well, Dr. Ney, thank you so much for taking the time to sit down with me today. Thank you so much for having me. This was fun. Yeah, I never thought our paths would collide. I know, but you know what? As different as we are, as similar as we are, isn't that funny?

Yeah, well, I'm glad we made this connection. And if you ever need anything at all with content or anything, you know, I'm sure your husband's got more questions. I'm sure he does. I'm happy to help you guys with that. Okay, he says he does. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Take care.