Locked In with Ian Bick - Inside New Jersey’s Corrupt & Dangerous Prison System | Dr. Brian Kelly

Episode Date: March 30, 2025

Dr. Brian Kelly exposes corruption inside New Jersey’s prison system, the injustices he saw, and why the system is failing so many. #CorruptSystem #TrueCrime #JusticeReform #PrisonAbolition #ExposingTheTruth #LawAndOrder #SystemicIssues #scandalotv Thank you to DRAFT KINGS for sponsoring today’s episode: New players can get FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME! Just sign up with code IANBICK and wager a minimum of five dollars to receive FIVE HUNDRED CASINO SPINS ON A FEATURED GAME. Connect with Brian Kelly: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/drbriankellycfe/ Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 Brian Kelly: From Correctional Officer to Private Investigator 00:08:25 Nostalgia for School Days 00:17:17 Mentorship in Criminal Justice Studies 00:26:01 Career Decisions and Options 00:35:00 Discovering the Jail's Troubling History 00:43:28 First Days on the Job: Unexpected Challenges 00:52:43 Unexpected Encounter with an Inmate 01:01:17 Behind the Scenes of Jail Management 01:10:09 The Corruption Behind Job Interviews 01:18:47 From Excitement to Disenchantment: The Reality of Law Enforcement Career 01:28:58 Navigating Religious Practices in Prison 01:36:26 Deployment of Canine Units in Jail Operations 01:45:46 The Controversy Surrounding "The Green Monster" Jail 01:53:22 Transition to Transit Police 02:03:03 Handling Violent Incidents in Corrections 02:11:14 Navigating Racial Tensions in the Workplace 02:19:19 Celebrating Success and Networking Opportunities Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

At my bank, I was literally getting pennies using Wealthfront. Cheching, there's this much that I'm getting an interest and I didn't have to do anything. Clients like Angela earn up to 4.2% APY on their cash with the Wealthfront cash account. Get started at Wealthfront.com. Client was paid $1,000 for their testimonial, creating a conflict of interest. Outcomes vary. 3.3% base API as of January 30th, 2026, is representative variable and earned on funds swept to program fund fund fund fund fund fund fund fund fund fund fund fund. LLC member finra sipc not a bank dr kelly welcome to locked in man thanks so much for reaching out on ticot and coming on the show today absolutely i appreciate you having me it's good stuff yeah and then

you are our first uh p i that was a former correctional officer yes i i noticed that based on who i've seen you know come through and whatnot i think uh i think you're correct there yeah and the the crowd loves the correctional officer stories and the p i stories uh which is really interesting because I remember the first PI interview I did. I didn't know how it would go. And then it just, it did really well. People loved it. Oh, wow.

And it's another aspect of the criminal justice system that we don't really know about. It is. It's a more clandestine. I don't know if that's the greatest word for it, but it's a more sheltered vertical. But it's one, like you said, people seem to have a lot of interest in

because a lot of people think they should be investigators too. and some of them may have Mr. Calling, but yeah, there's some interesting stuff out there. Do you want to plug in the name of your company if people are looking for you? I am self-employed as me, Brian Kelly, private detective,

New York and New Jersey, and as well as, as of about a year ago, one of my best friends in the world retired from the New Jersey State Police formed his own conglomerate where he and another good friend own a, essentially a security company, I run their private investigative vertical for them as well. And that's called Parabellum Security Group. But I am my own self-employed contractor. Awesome.

We'll have your contact information in the description of this episode in case anyone. Actually, a couple of the PIs that were on the show did get clients after the interview. I'm sure they did. And I'm sure they got contact. by a lot of people that either wanted to talk to a PI. It's funny, man, like a lot of people, especially with referrals, a lot of people think and do need a PI, even if they have an attorney, which is probably wiser when you have an attorney to have a PI too, because attorneys are usually excellent for what they do, but they're not PIs. but a lot of people, there is a demographic out there that I think is enchanted by, believe it or not,

why I'm not sure, to even talk to a PI and kind of share, and sometimes they're talking in circles and it's like, what is the case? You know what I mean? Like they're talking problems, but they're not, and then some have legit problems, legal problems. Yeah. And things to really worry about.

I figure a lot have to do with like a cheating spouse, like as a cliche phone call to that. Right. It is pretty cliche, but I would say now, and looking back over the last 14 years that I've been a PI, I would say only about 10%, believe it or not, 15% tops of my caseload have been,

infidelity. But, you know, why? I think the states that I'm licensed in New York and New Jersey, those are no fault divorce states. So a lot of times, whoever the cheater, whatever gender spouse that was or is, it doesn't always play a huge factor. in the outcome of child custody, even finances. A lot of people in that realm that just say

are a victim of infidelity want answers due to their own peace of mind. I've heard that term so many times. And I get that. Having peace of mind is my significant other cheating on me. I have no qualms about taking on infidelity cases and I am handling one right now that is questionable

infidelity. I think the one client spouse who hired me he may be right, he may be wrong, and I tell him and everybody,

it's my job to prove or disprove. I'm not a magician, I'm not Merlin the Wizard. So a lot of times that's what you have to do as well. Sometimes you're there to actually disprove.

And I think a lot of people don't get that as well. Yeah. So where did you grow up? I grew up in Northern New Jersey, town born in Orange, New Jersey, raised, Born Orange, New Jersey raised West Orange. I don't know if you ever heard of the oranges. One of them. I didn't know there was a West Orange. Which one did you hear of? Just orange. Okay. Yeah, Orange is orange and East Orange are high speed. No joke. A lot of crime.

West Orange has its own crime and gets a lot of the overflow from Orange and East Orange. It was a good place to grow up. You had a mix of urban and suburban. I grew up on the border essentially of Orange and West Orange

Essex County, New Jersey. And yeah, it was a good place to grow up. Who'd you grow up with parents, siblings? Yeah, yeah. My mother, my father, I have one older brother and I grew up in the 80s, man. So it was a great time. It was a great time to grow up.

We had the, I'm sorry, I'm biased. We had the best music, the best movies, the best TV shows, sports. And I look back, I have a daughter now, and I look back when I was her age, and I'm like, there's a lot of similarities, but any playground was packed, any basketball court was any grass lot kids were playing football. It was like that generation, that's what you had to look forward to. You had video games and this and that.

But it was also, if you weren't playing sports or out of that town pool, which was always big in the summer and things like that, you were with your friends at a mall. Like, when was the last time you hung out, if ever, at a mall? Like back then, you had arcades at a mall. You know, that would be one of the go-to place. then you had movie theaters.

Not a ton of difference today, but I think when you look back on things, it's not a complete similarity to what it is today, but it was a great time to grow up. Yeah, less kids are outside now. Yeah, man, it's different. It's different, but fantastic era and location to grow up where I did. What do your parents do for work?

My father was a chemist. chemist. And the majority of, from what I remember, he was a chemist at Exxon. They had a big refinery off the New Jersey Turnpike there. My mother was a nurse. And she worked at hospitals and then later on, doctor's offices and then like some wound care center. So she was a by trade, a career nurse and my father a chemist. How would people describe you as a kid?

As a kid. Happy, funny kid, social, a lot of friends, playing sports, pretty fun kid. Yeah, fantastic childhood. Rough at times. My father was pretty strict. But from looking across the whole landscape, and I guess a lot of, of it's what you see from what you see now. And I can compare errors.

It was just like school was actually pretty fun. School was school, but it was good. You looked forward to it. You looked forward to it. Everybody knew everybody. You weren't friends with everybody. You had your clicks and this and that. But everybody knew everybody.

And I grew up in a town, I guess just say about 50,000 people, give or take back then. And you had up the hill and down the hill. And I was definitely down the hill, but a little in between, a little urban slash suburban feel. But you knew of people at different grammar schools. You played sports with them.

And then everybody, right, just like most towns, you get to know them through sports and stuff. And then middle school, now you're in classes with kids, obviously. You didn't go to grammar school with. That was pretty cool. And then my town had two high schools for a very long time until I went to, yeah, just as I was getting out of middle school, that one big high school, which was West Orange High School. The other high, that was originally something called Mountain High School.

The other high school was actually right by where I grew up. That became, if you ever heard of Seton Hall prep. Nah. It was the miniature version of the university was an all-boys school. A lot of my friends went there. I was a public school kid and kind of stayed that route. When you were in high school, did you have a career in mind? No.

And it's funny. A lot of people, if you look at my background, I would say eight out of ten people with similar backgrounds to mine or whatever would say, I always want to be a cop or I would, or they had a family full of law enforcement. And that was like they're calling. I had some aspirations of becoming a chef that was shut down pretty quickly. my father said, no, no, you'll be working holidays and this and that. Okay.

And then what happens later? I'm working every holiday anyway. Right? I'm in law enforcement. So back then, it was, that's another thing. It was such a busy time and a good time to be that age. And maybe that's where this generation is separated a little bit. I think a lot of this present day kind of mindset is preparing early, right, for what you want to do in your future, which is great.

Back then it was like everything's going to kind of just organically. And some kids, you know, knew what they wanted to do, I'm sure. My friends and I, most of us were just, you know, even in high school, it was like, yeah, okay, go to college, I guess. And that's pretty much how it was. But it was a good time. Did you end up going to college? I did. Applied to a multitude of schools.

The best school I got into is the one I went to. That was St. John's in New York. And I did wind up going there. What were you majoring in? Originally a business major. And did okay the first semester. Second semester started dropping off a little bit. Wasn't really viving with the,

the economics classes and like business law. Maybe that was a little tell telltale sign of things to come in the future, just a portion of it. But I wasn't viking with the curriculum at that time. I wasn't that mature with my academics either. And I quickly found myself on academic probation. And a lot of that was just not taking school seriously. I was pretty avid and competitive powerlifter, not just like local stuff, national stuff, qualified for international stuff, where I was like, I don't know what delusions of grandeur I had, but it was almost like I was pretending that was my life.

And my father and eventually my mother started catching on to that. And when you get a call essentially and notifications, okay, Mr. Kelly, you're on your last leg here with academic probation and this and that. You and your dad have to come to campus and talk to basically like an academic tribunal. And as strict as my father was, and as much as I knew I had to get my act together, because then it started to sink in like, oh, you better decide how you want to dictate, right? Your future here academically and then even more so with goals and objectives. I will give my father credit for as rough as he was.

He was a rough dude, strict dude. He had a rough childhood. He was also a Marine from the Korean War. So I'll give him credit, though. He looked at me after they issued a... last opportunity. I think I had two sophomore years and that's when this all happened. And he looked at me pretty much right in front of them. And there was like a provost there. There were deans there, priests. It looked like I was on trial. But I get it. I get it now. The significance of it. You're

about to get kicked out of college. My father looked at me. He goes, I know you can do this. I'll support this last shot, but it's either this or the Marines. And that was enough at that time to say, okay, yeah, let me get it together because I know I could do this and finish this mission here. And it worked out.

And the good thing is, I had, I came to a realization of, I'm probably going to be, and I think you'll agree with a lot of this. What do people most excel at? Things that are of interest to them,

whether it's academics, profession, right? Where am I going to have, not the least amount of resistance, but what truly, you know, interest me, where could I now foresee myself? And the, you know, the policing, the criminal justice classes, and who taught me,

it definitely played a role in just changing the paradigm, switching over to, you know, the cliche criminal justice degree, because I came also through a time when it was just, you went NYPD, right, or FBI. And I was a Jersey kid at a New York school. So these are all Queens, Brooklyn,

the Staten Island kids, okay? And they all had hooks at different places, whose father was a captain, and then he's going to NYPD, who's this kid who's going to the FBI and who's this kid who's GPA never even moved other than 4.0. He's scholar going to this federal agency. There wasn't as much opportunity, but you had a good core foundation of people teaching you that walk to walk, okay?

And kind of helped exhibit to us students over time, each cohort, how to also create some of those opportunities. So I turned it around there. I had one particular professor that kind of helped mentor me and a few other criminal justice students. And he was a guy from New Jersey as well. He was a former assistant prosecutor with a major prosecutor's office, a county prosecutor,

which would be the equivalent to a D.E. out here. And I found them pretty down to earth, but fascinating. And I took a lot of courses with him. He was another Jersey guy. We wound up splitting each semester. The toll, back then they had, you bought a toll book and you'd pay like a certain amount of month and you get a certain amount of tickets to pay tolls.

Before the easy pass. Right. Yeah, right. showing my age. And he'd go, you want to split a toll thing, the toll book? I'm like, yeah, that'd be cool. Because you're not going every day. I'd be there like, right, two, three days a week tops.

He might, I think, you know, college professional, your schedule is pretty, you know, planned out a couple days a week. So we would split the toll book and then I'd have him in class. But he was down-to-earth guy. And he was a pretty, instrumental part in my academic turnaround. He also uniquely worked at a time where in his heyday, he had some higher profile cases.

And obviously, like any good criminal justice professor, share some of their background and stories, right, with their students. And he himself would, due to prosecute. You're familiar with the Iceman, Richard Kuclinski? No? One of the most prolific serial killers in American history.

He was also a contract killer for a large mafia family. There was an HBO documentary called The Iceman tapes where a forensic psychologist interviewed him and broke him down psychologically on tape and there was movies made about him. But anyway, he was a big deal. He was from Hudson County, that serial killer. My professor told a story where when he was a prosecutor. And as you know, whether somebody's high profile or low profile criminal,

whether they're a gang member or a killer or whatever, or sometimes you get death threats against you via who you're prosecuting. And apparently the Iceman found out, because the Iceman, you know, based on data and research, he was always under contract by and large for the family he worked for, the Mafia family he worked for, as well as other higher profile people who contracted him to kill. But once he himself found out part of his destiny, he found out that my professor, who was, like I said, a full-time prosecutor at the time, was due to prosecute him in one particular county for probably only a fraction of the charges that he was facing. All he did was pull up in front of my professor's home. Just picture a large front yard in a more rural community where you, you're a, you.

if you can picture a large front yard where like you're coming off a main drag to driveways long, the house is up there, right? The ice man just pulled in the front of the, like the lip of the driveway, and he just put the high beams on the house every night. And my professor quickly realized who it was. And then he had to get like all kinds of protection. That actually led to a big arrest of the Iceman where that particular arrest kind of concluded a lot of his, God knows how long he was in his business.

And that was the beginning of the end for him. So I'm glad my professor lived to tell about it. That was pretty interesting. Wow. So when you graduated college, where did you go? As far as work? Yeah. Interesting.

When you're, and it kind of, this remains pretty constant today. You're probably even aware of this. But when you're a criminal justice major, if you're not, dead set on going to say law school, which very, back then, very small percentage of men and women, I believe that, I believe very small percentage that was in their thought process. Like I said, it was mostly feds, go to feds, policing. I had taken some tests, police tests, which also, covered corrections, things like that.

I was also, I turned my academics around enough, along with a couple other classmates, where I thought I was going to the feds. So a handful of us were all but hired by, now this is pre-9-11, what was back then U.S. customs and enforcement, right? Now, in post-9-11, obviously, all the agencies, a lot of agencies merged. Some are no longer there.

Back then, you had immigrate INS. You had U.S. Customs. And then that was under Department of Treasury with ATF, a couple others. FBI was standalone. And there was a lot of independent agencies. About five of us from St. Johns, from my own program, got hired, all but hired by U.S. Customs. And just think of it like this.

We got hired on a Friday, not sworn in, but just in writing. It's like all but secure, all but secure. Basically let go on a Monday without even having set foot in a place of employment. The money that was budgeted for us apparently was, I don't know, transferred somewhere else to another agency. I don't know how the, Department of Treasury did it. But, and a lot of it, I think, had to do with, like, we were a hot, it's a hotbed area. New York City metropolitan area is very competitive, right, for jobs.

And here you are, you're making this big academic turnaround. You're like, all right, man, like my journey is coming to fruition here. And you learn pretty quick how things kind of work. whereas I didn't get my op there to work for them and as a Fed right out of college, like some people did. Look, everything happens for a reason, right? Never got that opportunity to come to fruition, but another one came calling.

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non-withdrawable casino spins valid for featured game only and expire in 168 hours. See terms at casino. dot com slash promos ends 427 25 at 1159 p.m. Eastern Time. And you didn't want to join another federal agency? You didn't try to apply or did the second option come so quickly you didn't even have a chance? The second option came within months and everything else. I tried to become, through, you know, applications and processes, a federal law. probation, federal probation officer.

Good thing you didn't do that route. Yeah. Yeah. I think I was more enamored with, oh, I got to, you know, go with the feds. You know? I hear that's a good job, though, once you surpass and, like, you work your way up. Yeah, I know. I know a few retired and they did well.

But starting now, it's not that good. No, no. Well, back then, I mean, everything was 26,000. even with the feds, unless you were, you know, 4.0, they'd bump you up a little bit. But with a college degree, they bumped you up a little bit if it was in criminal justice to give you a little more money. If you were a high-end scholar, which I wasn't, I just was able to graduate with like a 3-0, you were just going to be entry level, and that was just fine.

but all roads don't necessarily lead to right where you initially think they're going and everything happens for a reason and then based on a test uh police test that me and two buddies took a couple months prior um i got a call from the county uh notification you get a notification in the mail from the county of Essex that I lived in for corrections. Now, that was not my goal.

My goal was either the sheriff's department and back then you had and I'll give you to lay the land based on the county that I lived in and worked for. The main hub of everything was the Essex County Police. Then the SSX County Police.

County Sheriff's Department and then corrections. The county police wound up getting absolved into the sheriff's department. I wasn't on that list. Corrections at that time was my option. And two of my best friends were working there a couple months before me and already had their feet wet and didn't have too many complaints. I was always enamored. I would ask them about it.

And then when I got the call, this is your rank, your interview date, if you choose to accept, is this. And once you let them know and you sign off, then they start your background. And then you go up to get processed and what have you. So there I was a couple months after I graduated in Caldwell, New Jersey. You ever hear of Coldwell, New Jersey? Yeah. Okay.

So then you know Bloomfield Avenue? Now, it's a main drag that runs up into that area all the way down into Newark, New Jersey. Back then, uniquely, and this will share in the foundation of a lot of what I share today, back then they had two jails. One department at the time, it was called the department. Department of Public Safety, Essex County, Department of Public Safety. Like I said, separate from the Sheriff's Department and what the county police was, what have you.

Kind of weird, though, right? A big county. The second largest county in Jersey, but the county with the most crime, the most inmates, pretty much because of Newark, and they had two jails. So I got the interview for what was known as the Well. It was the Caldwell Jail. The other jail was what was called the main jail in Newark down by what's called the Hall of Records down in the center of everything in Newark, New Jersey. But I was familiar with call well.

It was 10 minutes from my house. So I drove up. You're sitting in a gatehouse. A van comes down with a CO in it. And he's like, get in. And it's like three of us. And this is 96, 97. 1997, and we get in the van and we're just driving up these windy hills and there's acres of land.

And you see this huge main building. It looks like a huge penitentiary. And that was the main building. And then you see all these other satellite buildings. And it looks like defunct farmland with satellites built on them to hold inmates and barbed wire, of course, all over the place. and land and hills and mountains. And it's like, this is Caldwell, New Jersey. Like, I know Caldwell from, like, sports and, like, places, like, pizza place.

Like, I mean, I never even knew this existed. I heard about a little, you know. And it's like this inner sanctum up. And you go out, they drove us up. And you see, like, this makeshift building. And you walk, we walked across this metal. bridge and we walk in

that was internal affairs that's where they interviewed you you got fingerprinted you did your backgrounds and that's where I got processed and not too long after that within a couple weeks there I was

um here's where you buy your uniform and this and that and you show up pretty much for work they give you like um

Well, now they give you an orientation. When I started, my orientation was the following. Everybody got assigned to certain shifts. I was lucky enough to get assigned to a traditional eight to four shift. As you know, with law enforcement, I'm sure you probably even know just from different people you talk to and things you've seen. Shift work is a big, right, element of. any agency you work for. So now it would be kind of weird

for like a new boot to start on a day shift and maintain that. Back then you had eight to four, four to 12, midnights, and then you had a weekend shift. So I was fortunate to get Caldwell because I heard through the Gravevine,

Caldwell was better than Newark. Didn't know why yet, but that's what I heard. Okay. And my uncle, I'm sorry, cousin, but I called him my uncle. His name was Jerry. He was a county cop at the time. He was still, even though they got absolved, he was pretty close to retirement. And he himself had given me a little

heads up on the county a little bit. But I was, you know what, I want to lay the backdrop for you a little bit. So Essex County, New Jersey. Most people know Essex County from the city of Newark. Okay, there's a lot of history there. You have the Newark riots in the 60s. That had to do with a lot of the Italians versus the blacks versus the Irish. Very political county always was. Little did I know. The county executive, right, at the time.

And in New Jersey, you vote for a county executive to run each of the 21st century. counties. The county executive at that time had just gone to jail. Not rare for New Jersey politics, not rare for Essex County. So this guy, Tom Delessio, had just gone to jail. Little did I know, but quickly found out. The jail that was hiring me, where I was just starting, was under a federal monitor because of a inmate advocate, name. Susan Silver, who filed a lawsuit for the inmates only at Caldwell based on the conditions of the jail. So that plays into a little bit of my orientation.

So a sergeant meets me downstairs, brings me up. And it was clear. Officers are in blue. Supervisors are in white. You see who's a sergeant, lieutenant captain. Warden's office is to the right of these. big stairs you walk up in this main building, which is that defunct penitentiary,

turned into this hub of the jail. And as you probably are aware, there's a lot of turnover for officers working out of jail. Now they send you to a police academy right away, no matter what jail you're working for. Any Department of Corrections usually send you to, a 14, 18, 26-week academy. Back then, due to the amount of turnover,

but because they were also not financially that well off with the federal monitoring and everything else, you did not go to academy for a minimum of a year or two years. Some people waited three years before you went to any academy. Now, not that in an academy can get you ready to work in any jail or prison because it can't. It can help a little.

But right away, it was, Kelly, nice to meet you, this is so-and-so, this is so-and-so. They put me right in, like they did most people, an area of the main building called the West Wing. Okay. And as soon as you hear that sliding door, right, shut behind you, you know what's on. And you're like, I'm 21 years old.

And you're like, all right. What did I get myself into, right? You're looking around. Most officers were salty, but friendly. And you're looking around, man. There's inmates working, walking around, this and that. The way it was set up, it was linear. It wasn't direct supervision.

So you had, it was called, you had the West Wing and East Wing. They put me in the West Wing first day. Downstairs in what would be like level one was called A-Swing. and B. You had 30 inmates on A, B. It was the same thing. A, B, C, D, E F, G, H, 30, and 30, each, right? Each tier, though, was a different category of inmate. So down below, A and B was the heavy hitters. They put a lot of violent offenders down there. And, you know, a lot of gang members mixed in back then. Their classification wasn't fantastic. It was pre-9-11. The classification and the monitoring of security threat groups was a little loose.

And it was mostly, it was heavy on the blood side. That's how New Jersey was at the time, heavy on the bloods. Heavy on the Crips, but it was Bloods, Crips, Latin Kings. That was pretty much it. And bloods were everywhere. So if we had 3,000 inmates throughout both jails, 2,500 were bloods. and that was to be expected. So I started training on C&D with a fellow named Jimmy.

He was a good officer. His father was a CEO. So he knew. And he spent, it was there a while. He ran a good tier. But what I quickly found out was his tier was the forensic unit. So not only was everybody emotionally disturbed,

high on either Thorazine Haldol or not or refusing to take meds. Part of that federal monitoring lawsuit that was going on had a lot to do with this West Wing, East Wing, and the security. So a lot of it was, the training portion was, is anybody that comes into the wings today going to stay? Right? officers. So I'm not joking. It was, hey, how you doing? Nice to meet you. Where you're from? Bub, blah, blah. A little standoffish expected. Hey, brother, I'm going on break. Here's the keys.

This was all pre-planned. They throw you a set of gold brass keys on a ring. You don't know what keys are working. What? You're sitting at a desk. There's an inmate mopping over there. There's stairs leading up to another officer. There's another set of stairs. so you can imagine the heads are spinning. Your heads, you know? And you're like, oh, this is awesome. Like, this is, this is just what I, this is just what I dreamed of.

So after the first little, I guess, test, if you will, where you're not, either prove that you're not going to run out. Okay, we got past that. So now, first day, you start learning a little bit. This set of, this set of, of this building had cells that were linear, right? Traditional cells that would go across. And like you've seen, I don't know if you saw this in your own experience,

but for people on the outside listening, you know, when you see like tears that you can look down on, right? Yeah, like Alcatraz. Exactly. Exactly. Catwalks, right, where you would see down and this and that. And they could talk to each other. Once the cells open, okay, here's the thing.

The cells didn't lock. The cells didn't lock and the lights didn't work. And when I say the cells didn't lock, here I am learning how to manually, I don't know if you've ever seen this, you're manually trying to open and close cells. We're in a perfect world. They would all open together. They would all close together. just say out of 16 cells on each side of this just a forensic unit let alone all the other ones

just say four cells on each side worked so you're manually opening and closing so if you're assigned to cell five and that's one of the only ones that are getting locked in locked you got to stay locked in when it's time to lock in everybody else is what on the honor system so you're like oh I'm working in a real jail with real inmates and the cells don't lock. All right. Wow. Light bulbs. You'd screw in light bulbs.

You'd have a flash. I didn't know to have a flashlight. You know, you quickly learn that's, you better get a little flashlight. Inmates would put pennies where you would screw the light bulbs. You get shocked. And this is, this is what you're dealing with. And now I'm working a tier pretty much for the first week. And then thereon for the first couple months, that was all forensic unit where nurses would be in and out.

Sykes, psychologists, psychiatrists would be in and out. Every time that inmate leaves the tier, they're getting transported by minimum two officers. Inmates in strait jackets. Inmates in straight jackets. I was like, wow, this is like one floor. over to cuckoo's nest, man. Okay. So in that first week,

so I survived day one, that first week, I'll tell you what I saw. You ready? Just say day three. I'm doing a count. You replaced the midnight shift. And as you know,

each shift, pretty much the most important parts of the day are count. So morning count, you knew who was supposed to be a court, already off the tier. And if you're in your cell, we hope you're, you know, make sure you're alive.

And once again, it's a little daunting because most of these cells didn't lock. So it's extra challenging. So you're doing your count. So day three, I'm doing my count. And, uh, I see at a, this side of my eye,

one dude sleeping. And the other guy, it was dark. Like I said, the lights didn't work. And I see and hear a little something. Lo and behold, guys hanging up. Guys hanging up. And I'm like, whoa.

So I just start yelling. And of course, it's one of the cells that lock. I have no training. I don't know what to do. I knew to go get somebody and yell for officers to get a sergeant, guy was alive, cut him down.

I could easily have said, oh, how did the midnight shift not catch that? Well, I don't think that guy was hanging up on the midnight shift. I think that guy hung up to get noticed because he was alive. But that's something to see, your third day on a job, nonetheless.

A guy who was a readily emotionally disturbed, probably should be on all kinds of meds, maybe on some meds nonetheless, but hanging up. So that was dead. day three. And, you know, like that type of stuff, you don't forget that. Like, that's, but you know what?

I said, okay, I came back the next day, just as a lot of guys have seen stuff like that and do. A couple days later, working at the same tier. And I also started at a time in which cigarettes were gold. so that you could back then you had rollies like they bought cigarettes and tobacco to roll through commissary or what have you so smelling tons of smoke each day was not that was common that was what you expected and frankly you learn pretty quickly that's what keeps a lot of peace right because that's gold in jail cigarettes and things like that. So I'm sitting there at my desk

still early morning, ready after count. And I'm smelling smoke. It's people smoking and this and that. Then you start when you, now I'm at a desk and to my back are the tears running parallel behind me, right? I have to get up, open

a main door to get in that tier. Same with that side. But I see smoke coming out way more than cigarette smoke. It ain't like the first cell where dudes blowing smoke out by me. they don't do that. So I looked down and now I see these flames shooting out of a cell.

I said, here we go, man. So I'm like, so we had fire extinguishers and I'm like, yo, fire! So I bust the gate, run down with a fire extinguisher. It was just like the water ones. And probably the most medically disturbed inmate on the table. hear at that. How many discounts does USAA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe

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So when you, oh, of course, another cell that locked. One of the three or four cells that locked, of course, they got the guy hanging and this guy. So mind you, this is still day five and we're just, the heads are spinning. So we start putting out the fire in nature, downstairs. yelling up, everything's going, Buckwild. We get the fire out. We get the mattress down. That way, you know, enough where we could bust a cell open.

The guy's sitting, the guy's fully dressed in his jumper, little fellow, giggling on a toilet. But it's going like this. Okay. These are some serious, you know, something wrong with these individuals. And, yeah, that was day five. That's crazy. This all happened in your first week. Well, it gets a little better.

And another lesson learned. So let's just say I get through that first week, Monday through Friday, got the weekend off. Mind you, I'm still living home at the time. And my mother and father are like, hey, has the job. Good, guys, good. Yeah, I met so-and-so. yeah, I saw they knew my friends that worked there. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty cool.

And I'm like not telling them what I'm seeing. And especially my mother. But I, for some reason, I was like ultra looking forward to going back Monday. A strong sense of nervousness, but a percentage of being psyched up to in a very weird way. And that Monday, pretty much the same old thing. And I remember, I think it was a Tuesday. Same tier. Day is just about over.

Due to the last count, the cells that locked are locked, everybody was pretty medicated on that forensic unit. At the time, you know, each tier, even that tier, had workers, right, that would clean up, get paid for it, whatever. At the time, during the second week of me being there and God knows how long he was doing it, this guy, Kevin Williams, you know how you just don't forget names? And this is 27 years ago, bro. And you know certain things you can't unsee and certain names you just don't forget, right? Yeah, of course. This guy Kevin Williams. At the time, I was like 510, 275, heavy, but I was a big,

dude and um this guy was easy six three and my size mostly disturbed and you know based on a sheet you're given by a medical who's supposed to be on what medication you don't have their whole brain like hippo laws were in play but like you knew a little more than you would probably know today you know who got prescribed meds but you knew who was on heavier stuff So I was familiar with him enough, but this inmate wouldn't talk. Like I would see senior officers talk to him and give him directives or whatever. He was just like one of those big dudes who just didn't talk. He was a nodder.

And they knew he, you know, and he kept to himself. The one thing they didn't tell me is even in the friendliest of ways, you don't touch emotionally disturbed people. I didn't know this. So here you are trying to exude, right, a level of machismo without being a young punk, right? You're trying to portray a lot of what you are, but you don't want to come across as scared. But they read you and they know who's who. They know who to test quick and there's always tests. this guy wasn't testing anybody

he was mopping and he was emotionally disturbed and he was on that forensic unit lo and behold it's the end of the day and I said Kevin good job today man appreciate it I didn't expect that

you know I just I don't know decided to say that to him and I gave him a pat like a adder boy so once again you don't do that

to emotionally disturbed Not at this, especially at that level. He drops the mop. And I don't know if you ever saw somebody get Vadered. You know what a Vader it is? No. You know Darth Vader from Star Wars? Yeah.

Okay. Do you remember what Darth Vader was famous for? He would either physically choke you or pretend from me to you. He'd be like this. And then like, remember that, that, whatever that was, that bad Jedi stuff? Yeah. Well, Kevin, and I let him get a little too close. close and he wasn't slow either.

He quickly vatered me. He vatered me and I'm trying to get his hand off me and I can't. And I was pretty darn strong at the time and I'm like, this ain't good. Right? So when you're in one of those situations, right, life flashes before you. It's part of your brain's going, is this it? No way. It can't be.

I'm going to whip this guy's butt. Okay, boom. I can't get his hand off me. Now I feel him lifting me. He's lift. Now, my backs against, my backs against his cell's bars, but outside the cell, you get me? Inmates down below on that other tier,

you couldn't lock all them in either. So they would always be looking up. They hear, God knows what they heard. I don't know what was coming out of me. me. Curse F-bombs plus probably gasps of air. I had just enough,

I don't know what it was. I made just enough room where I was able to headbutt part of his, right, just enough to where he backed up a little, but he still was Vadering me. And then I saw at a corner of my eye, two big dudes that I was working would come down. And then, you know,

We had to subdue him, cuff them up, and bring them to what would be ad-sag then. But that was a quick lesson in. And he wasn't like some known, violent inmate or anything, but that was a quick end of the beginning of second week. I call it like all in one week, but quick lesson in what you can and can't do. And I was at that, you know, I wasn't trying to do anything that was out of pocket. but that's just, that was a quick lesson, man. That was a quick lesson. Why did you decide to go back?

Just after the first week or just after those three types of things. Yeah, after those types of situations. I think part of you or part of me at the time was, well, if I don't go back, I'm going to look like this, right? I'm going to look like a punk to everybody that works there, especially the ones that knew me from the outside or whatever. What do I tell my parents if I quit? And then part of me was like,

why would I want to quit? This is cool. And then you, you know, then that becomes not that particular incident, but that wasn't rare. So now working in corrections, you quickly learn as time goes, goes on that every day is high risk, man, right? And this is just a county jail. Everybody there is not supposed to be there unless you're getting remanded back to a state prison from another county.

Or facing Rico, if you're a high-ranking, you know, gang member, you're only there for 364. And most of these guys are doing 90 days or 120, drugs, this, that, right? And so part of it is like you're testing yourself to not quit, right? I think for the first couple months, no matter who you are, I think the first couple months is a test, an individual test to, I'm going to do everything to not quit because there's so much turnover, you know? And you're like, if I quit, what am I going to do?

Oh, I got a college degree, but. Now, my plan was to not be there more than a year anyway. Sometimes plans quickly change. How long did you end up staying there? Well, I stayed. My initial stint was four years and then I went to another agency. But within that first four years, a lot occurred. And I learned a lot, too.

politic wise, training wise, a lot of different things. That entire time, I'm saying to myself, this is, I'll never be here forever. It's a stepping stone, right? But more manifesting, like in a way, I'm manifesting a positive aspiration, like, I'm going to make something more of myself than just being a corrections officer, right? And we didn't like to be called guards. but you know that we are guards right and the connotation especially around the old salt

you're a dirtbag guard and if you were and you could be a dirt bag guard because that was like almost a comical thing but if you were a bad officer and everybody knew who the bad officers were you were a shitbird now most inmates were also

called shitbirds but the officers who were bad news and probably should have never been officers or something happened in their career. They were known as shitbirds. But what fascinated me, not only when I first started,

but during my first stint and thereafter, is just the political landscape that you see. And that runs rampant, probably in most jurisdictions. But I don't think anybody is ever ready for the internal politics of a capital. like Essex and the way I would describe it to you or anybody and you've had some vast experience yourself and seen some crazy stuff but anybody who's worked just say in New Jersey like when you

let me ask you a question yeah of course when you hear New Jersey what do you think of Newark and when you think in Newark what do you think of drugs gangs violence okay as do a lot of people. Is that the only thing that comes to mind when you hear New Jersey? The nice mall. Oh, that American Dream Mall? Yeah. Okay, nothing else.

Now, you're young, but nothing else. Think mainstream. I don't know. What else, New Jersey, rap? I don't know. Nah. What else would be New Jersey known for? All right.

All right. My jail was run. The county itself, And in particular, my department, the jails, both jails, was run like a Barnum and Bailey Circus, which has no connotation to New Jersey. But when you look at it now, and anybody else, I think a lot of people would agree, it was a circus show combined with the Sopranos. Oh, I would think you were right, Sopranos.

Which... Oh, after you started talking, I thought the Sopranos. But the funniest part is that's... Tony Sopranos house was literally, literally a mile from where this show was. So they were filming that while you were working there. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

And that was, that's that Bloomfield, they have a new thing. Yeah, Sopranos is, it's the connotation with that. So when you think of Sopranos, it's like mainstream, glamorized stuff that, who's not entertained by that? You don't think your department is going to be run like the five family. though. So when I first started, I quickly learned that your last name and your race will often dictate how people will perceive you, approach you, and depending on your character, how your career will play out. So here I am an Irish Catholic guy from West Orange, where a lot of people in general were from, a decent amount of people from that jail.

were also from, right? And you had people from all backgrounds, but the way New Jersey was run, it was assumed that my last name was Kelly. I was with the heavy hitter politicians, which they called, okay, the Irish Army. And that goes back decades. I had no affiliation.

I had no connection to that Irish politician or that Irish politician. I know people who did. And I certainly was an Italian, and most of the place was. And I was not affiliated with people from this town, this town. And every person, right, now I told you that county executive

had just gone to jail, right? He still, even though he went away, his politics and people affiliated with him and that whole, they call it a political machine and a lot of them were Italian a lot of them were Irish like I said so they kind of like

in you know made inferences that this is like the connected people like they're law enforcement executives but they they operated like mafia and anybody would assume

if you're Italian you're affiliated with this crew crew I thought we're like like, supposed to be like law enforcement. You know, we're guards, we're officers, but like, still law enforcement, right? So I had no affiliation, but you're quickly, you know how inmates click up real quick, right? If not from the street internally, it's pretty much how it is with officers. So you had, but I will say pre-9-11 and during this tail end of the 90s.

there wasn't a ton of racial segregation between the officers. I found it that a lot of the officers, regardless of race, kind of rolled and rode together when you were working, which later on, I'll tell you something else that changed that paradigm, that the paradigm I noticed changed drastically. So weekly, while working, at this jail. You were approached by different people.

Some were supervisors. Some were just in specialized positions, sought after positions. They were officers, but they had sought after positions. They certainly weren't sitting on tears, right? Supervising inmates. Certain officers had keys to the warden's office. officers are hanging out with certain wardens and directors after hours, possibly.

What a lot of them were doing and how they had successful careers were, remember, these are all political appointments, warden positions, director positions, how quick you got promoted, regardless of where you placed on that test, is how you kind of behaved. when it came to the county standpoint. One county executive just went to jail, you know, for bad stuff, fraud and, right? But the county's the county. People did not stop approaching each other about political donations and this and that. And my, right after I started a now guy who's a lifelong friend of mine,

shout out, Teddy. He was in sixth grade when I was in kindergarten. same grammar schools from the same neighborhood. His father was a county cop too. He told me a story right after I started, which kind of set the tone on the backside. So you had the inmate, right, the inmate vertical of like, oh, I'm working in a county jail now and, oh, there's some badass dudes here, let alone the emotionally disturbed ones that I had the, right, opportunity to get my feet wet with, let alone all the guys. gang members running rampant and let alone sells that don't, right? And the feds are looking to shut the place down and everybody's running scared.

But it's still the political machine, right, behind the scenes. So my friend Teddy tells me a story after I first start. I'm working overtime one weekend. Inmate visits. Inmates are there, right, in the main chow hall visiting. there was no behind the shield. And I'm talking with my friend, and he goes, anybody bother you yet?

I said, what do you mean? bother me? Does anybody approach you about political tickets? He said, no. He's like, all right, it's common, but they're going to know who they can get over on and who they can leach on to. I said, okay.

Luckily also, I became aware in my first week of somebody, from my town by the name Mike. And Mike was the union president that represented all the corrections officers. And I had a little background and knowledge of Mike. And he did of me. He was older to me.

He was my brother's age. Great guy. Lifelong friend. Did a lot for me. He quickly gave me a heads up too on this stuff. And he was the union president. He said, anybody approaches you with this political stuff and tickets. Tell me what me.

I said, okay. Something along those. First, I think he said, just tell him now. But they're going to know who you're with. I said, okay. Once again, Teddy's telling me the story. He says when he, not when he first started, but he was bidding on a job.

You know, there's different jobs, officers bid on, just like an inmate would work for this and this, right? So Teddy was telling me he was bidding on a job. that was kind of sought after. It was off the tier and your, whatever. He said, he got called in for a interview for this job he bid for. He said he got called in.

It was a totally different warden at the time. This was seven years prior he had started, 1990. And perhaps at that time, the most corrupt warden that county ever saw. And you'll see why in a second, hear why in a second. So Teddy goes in and he sees a guy that he knew, right, that used to be a county cop with his father, I think. He knew, and one guy's Irish.

And he's sitting there with this Italian warden. And that's how they designed it. Okay. So Teddy goes in and he says, yep, I'm here for the position, whatever. They're like, sit down. And they're like, you want this job? job. And he's like, yeah, blah, blah, blah.

He's like, okay. He said, open that warden says, open that draw. Opens a draw. There's a bunch of these tickets. Because you see those tickets? And then Teddy goes, yeah, I'm aware of what they are. It's like, that's a ticket for a gala to $250 each. You want this position.

You come back Monday with $250, you put it in that draw. And then the Irish guy. at the time. The last name was bowed. Says, Teddy, that's how it goes. And he quickly realized what was why. And he was conveying to me a lot of that behavior never dissipated, remained. So Teddy comes back that Monday. And the warden opens the door.

And the warden goes over by some, I guess a window, right? Like a window you would look out of your office. The warden turns his back, goes to the window, and the draw is open. Teddy does what he has to do, puts the money in the draw, shuts the draw. The warden goes, you start 6 a.m. next Monday for that detail. Take care. So that's a quick life lesson in how stuff worked deliberately, right, at one time. That never happened to me.

but you know, you are approached, you were approached during this time. Now, it was a very interesting time, once again, that county executive went to jail for similar type of behavior. But when things are ingrained, right, in jurisdictions like these political machines, and the behavior is not much different than that you would see on HBO, of Tony Soprano sitting down with Johnny Sack. Okay? Law enforcement heads were doing the same thing,

whether they were in a suit, whether they had a badge, and you quickly learn, holy, this is for real. Simultaneously, I started at a very unique time, obviously a lot before your time. Not just, you heard me say pre-9-11 a couple times already, right? it was a very distinct time in the United States for law enforcement. Number one, it was still coming out of the era of Rodney King. You're familiar?

That was 91, 92, right? In L.A. In L.A., which caused the L.A. riots, right? You had a bunch of LAPD. Rodney King was high on PCP, this and that. But then what did you, how did that, come up, what happened, right? What did you say?

You saw a bunch of officers beating the crap out of one guy with nightsticks. Very historic moment. For law enforcement, for society, but that also dictated the whole use of force movement, too, right? Each state cranking down on how much force and the proper amount of force can be used. From a New Jersey standpoint,

we were also under an additional microscope. A lot of people forget this and don't realize this. The New Jersey State Police, which is the most recognizable in the elite law enforcement agency in New Jersey, also had their share of issues, drama. And I want to say around 93, 94, there was something that occurred and unraveled a whole slew of things in New Jersey law enforcement and politics, initially with something called the turnpike shootings. Four teenagers going to a basketball tournament, three young black men won Latino, were in a van, pulled over, proven, pulled over based on race.

And the officers, when that van moved a little bit during the motor vehicle stop, the officers just open fire into the van and they all live to tell about it, but a couple of them got shot. Al Sharpton and other high-powered advocates turned it into pretty much what it had become anyway, like a major mainstream circus show. And unfortunately, then the feds came in

and investigated the state police for thousands of, of people being pulled over for the wrong reasons and giving tickets based on race, a lot of deception. So law enforcement at the time between Rodney King, use of force, what had occurred with New Jersey State Police, and already having the connotation of almost like a good fella type of mentality in this county. I can't speak for other counties.

but Essex County was pretty well known for some heavy stuff that I'm describing as far as like politics and nepotism and maniacal stuff. So the microscope is always on you, but the behavior didn't change much. Now you're still working in a jail where it's commonplace where you have to. to use force. It's commonplace that you're going to get assaulted. It's commonplace that stuff is going to kick off every day. I can't think of one day in my first stint there where stuff wasn't kicking off. And it makes for a rocky ride sometimes. All in the end, though, in that first couple years, it was a lot went on. I did go to the academy with a bunch of dudes, you come back. I had some other incredible opportunities for different trainings that I went

to that far exceeded some other opportunities that didn't get presented. Like, I probably received some of the best training in my life while employed with this Department of Corrections, initially Department of Public Safety. I had it in my head, though, that I still didn't, that was not my be all and end all. So right prior to 9-11, 2001, I applied for a position with the Division of Criminal Justice, the highest law enforcement agency in New Jersey down Trenton, the Attorney General's Office. They have state investigators. Like a CBI type thing?

Like a what? CBI. Like some states have like criminal bureau of investigations or something like that. Very similar. Very similar. Yeah. The Attorney General tells... Hey, honey, are you awake?

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There you go. Something very similar. A CO that had a brother, a CEO that was also leaving for a police department, had a brother in New Jersey politics, who I did not know. I just knew the CEO. And I asked them. I said, hey, man, I'm in the running for this position. You think you might be able to help me out. And he did.

Let me tell you something. The grass was not greener, man. As it's often played out, I thought I was going to be, like on TV, kicking in doors. And one day in a cheap suit and tie, and another day in, like, plain clothes and taken down. Real mobsters and the worst to the worst and whatever, you know, you just still young at the time. And I got hired, man. I got hired by the highest law enforcement authority in New Jersey as a state investigator three, they called it. Let me tell you something.

It was the most disenchanting experience in my life. And I'm happy that I had the opportunity to get there to see. what I thought was going to be, but it's funny after I got sworn in, and I meant a fella who I didn't know who he was, he was a special assistant to somebody. I viewed it like a kiss of death, like this is what happened.

I was coming out of an elevator. This is like my second day down there. And this guy, once again, I didn't know him. He didn't know me. I don't know if he was trying, to get somebody in there and I got in and I still really wasn't a fan of politics. I knew politics had gotten me in there. Anyway, he sees me coming out of an elevator and he goes, hey, hey, Kelly, come here, come here.

And he'd be like kind of like put his arm around me. He's like, listen, man, exactly what he said to me. He goes, look, I know you came down here and you want to be, you know, kicking doors in and running and gunning, right? There's word for word. He goes, but right now, we're going to have you in with these guys to retire troopers. He had me assigned to this unit. It was like an evidence unit.

And they were retired troopers. They were older guys, nice guys, but they didn't do anything. And, you know, they'd lived their career, you know. And apparently that's what they hired a lot of retired troopers. and then some younger dudes. And I'm sitting in like an evidence closet doing nothing for months. And they'd say, oh, take a ride with so-and-so in the state van and drop this off at the lab. And, bro, it was the weirdest experience.

And I'm like, this sucks. You know? And I had, you know, left behind some good training, some experience. I was making good money, too. Like, as the years go by, even at that time, you're. making money. You're making good money. Were you paid more for the new job or the corrections? With overtime, I took a pay cut.

They still paid me okay, right, for the new job, the state investigator job. But essentially, it was a cut, but I was just so disenchanted. And I said, man, I made, I don't think I made the best decision here. Lo and behold, after a couple months go by, I made a phone call. and I said, yo, to my friend Mike, who was the union president at the time, I said, you think you get me back, man? He's like, yeah.

I was like, sure? I was like, I don't know if they were so happy with me when I left because I was doing pretty well. I was doing pretty well. And I made some, you know, I had a pretty good reputation. But Mike got me back. And when I came back,

it was what it was, man. It was, you know, a lot of the guys were probably like, uh, couldn't hack it, huh? Okay, man, if that you did, you know, whatever, man. That was not the case, but it's grass wasn't greener. Now, mind you, I lost some seniority, but they brought me back at that same pay, so I was fortunate. So here I am in my phase two.

when they brought me back, they were very clear. They're like, you're not getting any special job. You're not getting back onto any other unit you were in in the immediate. You kind of got to work your way back a little bit. I understood. Because within that first phase, like I said, I went through, I had a lot of good training, a lot of different types of training. So I come back and I'm assigned to this one building.

called Satellite 5. Satellite 5 was built for what would be more direct supervision, where if you could picture you walk into a pod and you have right, the upper deck and lower deck. It's supposed to be 30 inmates up top, 30 inmates below. There's five pods, ABC, D, and E, and a control booth in the middle. And a sergeant supervising the command.

the control booth officer and the five officers for the pods. Okay. Each officer assigned, technically you're supposed to have two officers on the pod. That was never the case. Technically, you're supposed to have 30 inmates up top and 30 inmates on a bottom. But Essex County, they do things their way. They double bunk everybody. So now you have 60 up top, right?

60 on the bottom. So you have 120 inmates per officer. but that's pretty generic for corrections. You're always outnumbered. That's just how it goes. So within that first couple weeks of being back, I'm working for a sergeant female, who I worked with as an officer.

I never had a problem with her as an officer. Didn't have a problem with too many officers. You knew who to stay away from. You knew who to watch, if need be, right? because sometimes who you work with runs the risk higher than who you're supervising, especially in that county. So I'm working for this female sergeant. The crew of officers I was working with was pretty solid from what I can recall.

And then one day, you know, some days are just more special than others. And I'm assigned to this satellite five, and I think it was A-Pod, do my morning camp. everything's fine. Today, in that particular building, it was autopilot. It was pretty good. If you had a good crew and even a halfway decent sergeant, it was autopilot. And if you had the right inmates working, right, they also were a buffer for you to make sure everything, especially like the chow and this and that.

And as long as the counts are peaceful and everybody's abiding, it's usually running smooth. So one of the days that I was assigned to this one pod, they called for Muslim services. And you had real Muslim inmates with real Pereira rugs. And you had those that probably weren't down to join a traditional gang, but clicked up with some real Muslim dudes that probably were, right? Guys that ran deep in state prison knew how to jail very well. But like I said, just like you have real gang members and real OGs, you got affiliates and you got hangarounds.

Same thing. It was pretty clear that a lot of the Muslim crew, Cruz, clicks would allow that as well. They need to build their numbers too, right? But those guys didn't have real prerogues. They used, like, county blankets and stuff. Now, there's a reason I'm telling you this. Now, a count, like I indicated before, in any jail,

and I never worked in the prison system, the state prison are feds. But in any county jail, pretty much any correctional institution, a count is the be-all-end. three times a day. You do not interrupt the count. That's a big deal. So I recall a Muslim service was being, prayer service was being run. And at this particular satellite, they didn't have a separate area for them to go.

So they would take a section of the pod for themselves. That's just how it was. And that other main building that I was telling you about before, they went up through a different staircase for Muslim services. or church on a different day, whatever. So my midday count, my midday count ran parallel. It was after Chow, but it ran parallel to a Muslim service. So I, right as they were about to start, the head Muslim and me, I knew him.

We had a decent rapport. I said, listen, because his name was Omar. So you, Omar, I'm coming in, I'm doing my count. Do your thing, but I'm doing, you know, I've got to do my count. Business as usual. Maintain the prayer, okay? You got that, Kelly, you got that. Okay.

I don't know if it was just the full moon or what. One particular guy who was not, it looked like he, he must have been a affiliate with, you had a, you know, a county blanket, but he was clicked up with the, Muslims, I saw him popping off and heard him popping off about me doing my count at that time. I think one of his own people spoke to him and he piped down. I didn't have to intervene or whatever.

So I'm doing my count. And let's not get this twisted. Whether it's jail or on the outside. People's religion or people's religion. You don't, that's a sacred thing. That amendment doesn't dissipate. search and seizure does when you're in a right along with other constitutional rights but religion you have to provide religious services and you don't impede upon anybody's

religion just as you wouldn't want yours impeded upon simultaneously the count's got to get done i'm doing my count that same guy who was rebel rousing um while i was halfway through my count erupted his own prayer service and erupted the whole count, the prayer service, said I stepped on his county blanket. I didn't. He said I did. Me being me, I turned around during the count. I said, do not disrupt the count, but I'm letting you know.

That's a county blanket. And I looked at a couple of the main head guys. So that's a prayer rug. I said, number one. Number two, don't disrupt the count. You're also disrupting your service. We're trying to de-escalate things here. I finished the count.

By the time I'm finishing the count, and I recall doing the opposite of what I usually do, I used to count up top first, and then I used to finish with down below. It was the opposite this time. I don't know why I did that. Maybe he threw me off my game because he was doing his thing and he was down below.

So as I'm coming down the stairs, finishing my count. I see him and a couple other newer dudes trying to get clicked up with the Muslims. Just say about four or five dudes. And I'm walking and I wasn't going to change my path. I'm walking towards the door to get out of the pod because I got to write down the count. So him and his young fellas, they kind of stopped me in my tracks. he's talking something, he's talking, I stepped on his rug and this and that. Then some of the other old heads come over,

some of the real more authentic, you know, clicked up leaders of that group. They came over, including the guy I mentioned before. Lo and behold, there's a circle around me, and there's a good amount of them. And I see over them a little bit as some shit's being talked

and this and that. I see the female sergeant staring at me. I see some officers going, yo, we got to go in and she's not letting them go in and she's forbidding the control officer from letting them in. Now, part of what she's doing

may have been correct because let's just say stuff shit hit the fan and I was truly going to meet my maker that day or be taken hostage or whatever.

That is rule of thumb. You don't bust the gate and run in there or you're not supposed to whatever. Right? You would get emergency response to this, not any other. Words went back and forth.

I think I used, I didn't know what to do, what to think. I think I used like a really poor Clint Eastwood line, like almost like you could all kill me, but I'm going to take like two or three you with like something stupid you know you know it's like what are you saying that type of thing yeah you know so many different whatever well let's just say the lord got me out of there and probably

that old head had something to do it and as soon as i left that pod that female sergeant who i did work with like i said as an officer starts screaming at me she doesn't even know she didn't even know what the hell went down, but she's screaming at me. I didn't even have any words for her. I went into the back room. I picked up the phone. I called this Irish lieutenant that had a very rough reputation. He also was the head of special operations and internal affairs.

And we had a good rapport over the years. And I called him, I said, LT. We got an issue here. I told him who my sergeant was. I told him my location. I said, I just got surrounded. And it's bad, man. And I said the worst part is,

Sergeant failed to act. And now she's saying, she's going to write me up for insubordination or something. He goes, okay. Hang tight. Within 15 minutes, let's just say,

30 guys in black masks and full gear. some of which that team I may have been a previous member of prior to me leaving and four canine dogs which two of the nastiest canine dogs to ever kind of exist in that county and we had a good canine unit and I don't know if you're aware but those are some of the things not really the human element but the canine element

changes the game in a jail or prison, at least the one that I worked in, regardless of how many numbers were there. The dogs changed the game. Thank God. So let's just say that satellite was locked down for quite some time. They came down, they did their thing, flashbangs,

canine, like, I mean, and that guy, that right, Rebel Rouser, a young kid, and a couple of his affiliates and other gang members on other pods. They were scooped up and transferred. And I took that as a strong sign of respect from that lieutenant. And it's not like anybody who didn't storm that satellite that they didn't know what occurred. And that was just a job that had to be done. but that was to me a portion of that might be why I came back,

that may be why I should have never left, that is something that you don't always see in other departments, as maniacal and corrupt as the county was. If you were of that mindset, that's what I think a lot of people, people rolled with. And you read it, you know what I'm saying? So that was, that was a big deal.

That sergeant got transferred. I think she got a little, I don't know if she got time off. I don't know if she got suspended. She got transferred to midnight. She wasn't happy about that. And I didn't see her for a long time. And when I did, it was pretty clear. She knew what the deal.

was. Speeding up a little bit. That me leaving and coming back, whereas they didn't, my department internally didn't treat me leaving as, oh, when you come back, you're a rookie all over again. It was just a little waiting period before I maybe had an opportunity to work somewhere better in there. But from the Department of Personnel down Trenton standpoint, because all your paperwork,

when you're in law enforcement, your civil service. So your starting date is your starting date. But if you resign and leave and go to another department, technically, your new starting date is when you come back. So I lost all my seniority on paper. You get me? The county at that time was being run by a county executive who had aspirations to be a U.S. senator.

He wound up using campaign. funds after his first term from another from his county exact position to sustain other personal stuff in his life he was just misappropriating funds and this and that stuff that other county execs have gotten so while he's now under indictment the county's going through a fiscal financial uh bit of chaos themselves you know what they do we're already under the gun with manpower. You never have enough manpower. Anybody who started after a certain year

got a layoff notice. So because I left and came back. You got laid off? I got a layoff notice. You know what the layoff notice says. For anybody receiving this notice, you either can just go about your business and we'll pay your,

I don't think they offered to pay whatever sick time you had on and whatever. They said, but you'll be allowed to work in any DOC assigned state prison. I said, I ain't working no state prison in Jersey, bro. I had friends working out of that. I ain't doing that. This was enough, you know.

I just left, came back, and I ain't going to work these state prisons in Jersey. They're bad. And my tolerance level was just... So, I'm on this layoff. Okay. Then simultaneously, as people are getting layoff notices, you know what they're doing? Remember I told you about the federal lawsuit with the jails and the conditions? They, all this time, they're building a new maximum security jail.

housed down in the ironbound section of Newark, down by like the industrial area off of Route 1 and 9 in a turnpike, that's being built. And they set a date for it to open. And it was all direct supervision. All pods were the officer, right? The Newark jail and Caldwell,

you weren't working in pods. I told you how most of it was designed. You had a few dorms, a few like I just described, and mostly linear. So now you're taking, 4,000 inmates, 3,000 of which are gang members, and you're gonna just put them all together under one roof,

not much of a plan there with a new county executive, right? Because the other one, oh, the second one, like that other one went to jail. A lot of corruption in New Jersey. It's, it's, uh, it's a reality show within a reality show within a reality show. So as me and others are facing layoffs, everybody else is getting transfer notices to go from their one jail, either that Colwell jail, right,

or the other Newark jail, into this big maximum security jail. Now, I make it known to people that I'm affiliated with. I'm like, I'm not going to any of these state prisons. F that. I don't know what I'm going to do, but I ain't doing that. Well, somebody somewhere was looking out for me. somebody else, a friend of mine, who was also in that layoff bubble, says to me, I just got offered a position with the new administration,

a new county executive as an investigator. I said, wow, good for you. Because I'm not taking it because it's a civilian position, a civilian investigator. You understand what that is, right? No arrest powers. You're not law enforcement anymore. You don't carry a gun.

suit and tie investigator. I said, doing what? He said, I don't know, they just created a new thing called the Inspector General's Office. I said, who did? He goes, and he says the name of the New County Executive,

who's still there today. Another Tony Soprano type of thing, okay? But the Inspector General's office, but here's, if you read between the lines, if you know, it was actually very smart on behalf of the New County Executive. The New County Executive, going in there,

had a lot of heat coming on him. He got elected, and he was part of this political machine, maybe even more so than anybody than any county exec before him. Oh, by the way, they monitored closely which way you were registered as far as voting and which way you voted. That was never a secret, nor is it, it's public access today. But these tickets people bought, and everybody knew how much people contributed. everybody knew which way people voted.

And if you weren't at the minimum registered a certain way, they had hit lists, man. They had hitless. On a certain Friday, you would get your shift change, your jail changed. It was maniacal. And now this new endeavor was, let's close both jails,

ASAP, and put everybody under this one roof. Now, you being still in this metro area, You're still in a metro area here, right? New York, New Jersey, you're Connecticut, right? You're in the know. Did you ever hear of the Green Monster? No. No.

That's what that new jail has been known. As soon as it opened, they called the Green Monster. It's this big metal green facility that was the destination of, oh, this is where we're putting everybody who worked and, right, is housed at both of these jails. So having already established, I wasn't going to take one of these state DOC jobs. I, that friend who approached me, I said, listen, if this is still open and you think you can get me this civilian investigator job with this inspector general that I know nothing about, essentially working directly for this new county executive, let me know. Next day, I get a call. Yeah, man, I think you're in.

you got to interview down the Hall of Records. Really? Okay. That's the hub of all that is Newark for the county. So I go down there. I knew a little bit of the incoming new county council, which part of the job, an attorney you would report to, and the inspector general that was named to protect and insulate, right, all county business,

especially, you know, two county execs just went to jail. The next one don't want to go to jail. And you don't go to jail if you're doing things right. And part of the reason for creating this inspector general position that they did was to do that. Ridd County corruption, if you can, right? Well, I do got to say they hired a retired FBI a former assistant special agent in charge

who had incredible experience with dealing with organized crime and Rico and this and that. And I wound, his name was Dominic Skylion. I played football with his son and he was from West Orange, New Jersey. And he was a good guy. And he's a good guy. And I wound up being one of his investigators.

He had already two investigators, very seasoned guys. one from the Attorney General's office and another former FBI agent. So I'm like, wow, here I am this corrections guy with some decent experience, including some investigative experience, working for these heavy hitters,

working with these heavy hitters for the kind of exec who just laid me off. And I go from law enforcement status to civilian. Okay, I did it. And it wound up being a pretty good job. And the only downside was a lot of what came across our desks had to do with corrections and corrections personnel. They kind of kept me away in the first, say, six months from correction stuff. They kind of insulated me.

And I handled, they threw me to the wolves more with, like, county employees doing fraudulent stuff and things like that. and check schemes and workers' comp fraud and investigating vendors doing bad business with the county. Still your corrupt bullshit investigating it, but learning a whole new genre. We had subpoena powers, not arrest powers, but it was a pretty good job. And I'm learning different things,

working with these guys, learning from the guy who was essentially second in command of an FBI office in New York City. who already knew I had a decent reputation, who loved the fact that I was from West Orange, where he was from. And learning from these other investigators that already lived some serious careers.

I mean, these guys taught me how to surveil people, like real surveillance and mobile surveillance and things like that. Taught me a lot of white collar type investigations. And then we got into officer discipline and we would investigate other things. Even though we didn't have arrest powers, we would investigate, you know, cases that having to do with different departments, not just law enforcement agencies, but everything countywide.

After about a year, I get a call. No, about a year and a half goes by. I get a call from the human resource department at the same Hall of Records, this big building I'm working in. And I go down there and it's this guy, Mike Decker, and everybody down there is running scared, right? From the county executive, they're always worried. They're civil servants.

Their jobs are kind of protected, but everybody, when this guy took off, everybody was on eggshells. Here I go, I'm just like, once again, trying to make my bones after a year and a half working with everything is moving and grooving. We're like doing okay here. go down there to this like it's summoned right by this human resource guy he wasn't the head of whatever he calls me and shut the door Brian

he's like are you aware that you're in jeopardy of losing this position I go what do you mean Mike been here a year and a half he's like there's a test for this position you're in it temporarily

you have to take a test the test the test is actually not a test. The test is an application. And if you don't, if you finish number two in qualifications and somebody beat you, you're losing a position. I go, why am I learning about all this now, man? He's like, because this is how it works. Unfortunately, you were never told this. And apparently somebody, a retired, very salty retired investigator from a different never wanted this position and didn't get it. And when it came time for them, they had to legally open it, you know, first to the county, then to the state, this guy comes out number one, I come out number two.

And I get news that this is how much, so I bring it to my bosses. I said, look, I didn't know about this. This is what happened. This is what I was told. And they were like nonchalant about it. They were like, eh, don't worry about that. We're going to. I was like, no, guys.

Like I called Trenton, like this is, this is going to happen. I'm going to lose this job. They swore I wasn't. Well, after getting notified of losing this job and this and that, I had taken other police tests and this and that. And I'm like, here we go, man. Like, this is maniacal. And I was teaching part-time at the time, but that wasn't enough to sustain.

And I didn't want to completely give up my law enforcement career. wound up taking a test and getting called for a statewide police department. It was very transportation related. It was a transit police department and went back to my second academy. Left the job that I was told I was going to get fired from. And went through my next police academy and wound up working for this department for a while. So another new brand of politics. had some interesting experiences.

And it wasn't too new to me. It was just working in Newark and this and that and working all of Newark Jersey. It was very transportation related. It was what it was. And one day, the chief of that department had his internal people. He had his own little clique.

Everybody else was, you know, whatever to him. I didn't salute him one day. I knew he wasn't military, but I guess the policy said anytime you see him was to salute. And I think I knew that. And I just didn't.

And I got called in after about a year and a half of already being on the job. I got called in and I said, you didn't salute the chief. And I said, okay. Sorry. he's like well you're getting transferred and he transferred me to camden new jersey you know where camden is

three hours from where i lived and at the time camden was number two in the country and homicide rate and i would be assigned out of the camden transportation center which not only was right in the middle of all that is camden and maniacal mayhem it was also like the land of the zombies like Kensington is now in Philly. You're familiar? Yeah. And I said, oh, this is remarkable. So I'm, and I said, oh, and they said, by the way, on the midnight shift, your sergeant is an Atlantic City and you're by yourself.

So you're the only one on the midnight shift, rotating with another officer, four days, four nights on. Three days, okay. Phenomenal. So I got my first taste of Camden there. I'm driving down one street I had one night of training in that area worst section of Camden fires on roofs

people throwing Molotov cocktails in the street they see a marked police car like we were in you just turn around you leave and we're not even Camden we're we were transit I worked with some good guys but then after that it was just and I'm down there and I'm going back they made me work Atlantic City, Camden, Atlanta. Like, that was your tour.

So I did that for a couple of years. And where do you think I wound back up? I left. I left. You went back to the correctional facility? Second time. Went back to corrections. So technically your third time? Technically, third stint.

But the second one wasn't, it was a forced, here I am again. Now, there's no more Coldwell. there's no more north you know it's this green monster that i'm hearing about and i have plenty of friends still working there many of which were supervisors now so i call one good friend at the time and i said uh yo i'm coming back dude he's like no way i said yeah two police academies under my bell i'm coming back to the jail i said it's what it is man i'm done driving three hours to camden and that police chief wound up getting in a lot of trouble, racial discrimination, this and that.

Whatever, you know. I'm already long gone. Go back to the jail. I'm like, this place is maniacal. First of all, it was enormous. Every place you went was a quarter mile this way, a quarter mile that way. Mass movements for inmates,

say you had two officers, mass movements. the way it was designed because they rushed to open that place. And when they opened it, it wasn't really fully physically done. And they were sticking inmates. And now two years has gone, but they were sticking inmates in cells

and nobody knew where people were assigned and there were attempted escapes. Some officer was a gang member, which wasn't super rare. You've had those too. So two years of maniacal mayhem goes by while there's new jail is open and here I am never thinking I'll work in jail ever again

and I'm back in like the worst version of it and I wound up doing another year there I was in custody which is direct supervision just supervising inmates they made sure they gave me horrible days off Mondays and Tuesdays off what are you doing Monday and Tuesday off nothing right

I was lucky enough to stay on the day shift, though. And there I am. And after about, say, a year goes by, one particular day, nothing unfamiliar, emotionally disturbed inmate, needed to get transported to a doctor. So, like, yeah, my friend was the sergeant at the time, me and the guy that I knew very well, were due to take this inmate to the infirmary. But it was more for a psych eval. They're like, he should be fine.

We used this amount of howl doll on them. And I said, wait, wait, hold on a second. I look at his jacket. The guy did most of the time in this Anclin facility for forensic and a lot of different, God knows, how many diagnoses he had. And we take him to the infirmary. And we bring him there.

And he's cuffed in the back. We sit him down. And we're standing there. And something was a little weird. Like this inmate apparently had more history than I was even aware of. An assistant warden was in the room. The head county doctor.

was in it was like a lot going on. I'm like, this isn't normal. It's whatever, though. But apparently this guy had some serious history. I'm like, who is this dude? You know, guy sitting in a chair, hands cuffed. What I tell you before about what you don't do it, emotional. Touch him.

Doctor, tall white guy, doctor. White lab coat. Leans over, touches the guy's shoulder. Okay. You ever see the Matrix? Yeah, of course. Right. This guy did a Matrix.

He jumps, all in one motion. He leaps out of the chair. Does this spinning kick thing attack at the doctor? Doctor goes flying. Just based on position in the room, the guy I was with who was a rough dude himself, not a big dude, but he was like a Marine Corps sniper, one of those strict officers with no discretion.

he runs over. This guy who's still cuffed bites his fingertip off. My assistant warden who's no schlep he's like trying to so I was still pretty big and strong

at the time. I came behind them like this like a belly to back suplex but not good enough and as I like go to take him down I took him down I subdued him. He was already subdued though, right? I'm just preventing him from attacking anymore. People, he bites me. He bites me. He bites me. And it's a good bite. And of course, I had short sleeves on that day. And we had that

option to wear long. And I had gotten bit a couple times in my career. Wasn't super rare. I mean, officers have gotten bit. I don't know too many people who have gotten bitten three times in three different years. And this one was a decent one. We all got checked out. They wouldn't disclose if he had AIDS or hepatitis and this and that. I came to a revelation not so long after that. Between the highs and lows of my journey and law enforcement, I said, I called a trusted person in my life who was my cousins. Like I said, told you before, I called him uncle. He already retired.

I said, I think I'm done, man. Like, I think like my path has already spelled out for me. What are we doing here? You know? Whereas corrections for me at a time was like my go-to. Oh, I shouldn't have laughed at that time. to where now I'm getting thrusted back into it and now things are getting more maniacal and more maniacal

and the place was run very poorly and officers were getting hurt a lot, still are. The clientele has gotten more dangerous. There's Serenios there, there's Mexican mafia there. Pre-9-11, you didn't see that. You had barely any Latin kings, some, and mostly bloods, some crips. And most of those crips were in PC.

now this entire place was like a cauldron for every security threat group other than AB, right, or white base gangs, because you just didn't have that in this county. Not in this county. You had white base gangs in New Jersey and certain state prisons, but just never in Essex County, you know? and the paradigm changed. It was just getting worse and worse and worse. And I have my own thing going on here. I'm like, this is, what is going on here?

So I had a good talk with my cousin. I said, I think I'm done. Like, I think I'm going to, like, put in for my retirement. And I had enough time all your stints. Okay. This was calculated. I said, I think I'm going to, he's like, yeah, I think that's a good move. So we did it the right way.

But I kept coming to work. I kept coming to work. I didn't have sick time to run. And this was my parting. Ready? Because I kept coming to work, the game doesn't change, right? You're still there. And now I'm just waiting for a potential retirement date.

You know, the county could still do their thing. hey, because they're going to get notice of who's retiring and that's not like some guy who just did 25 years, we're going to like pat you on the back. This is like something different, right? You got a guy who has the time, but I'm not retiring because I just did 25. I'm retiring because I have these incidents that occurred,

especially this one, where look, there's other retirements where guys are getting shot, guys are getting stabbed. I'm very fortunate. That did not happen to me. but I also viewed this as a wake-up call. That's how I viewed it. And I think I was correct because it did work out for me.

But just prior to it working out and things, you believe in things coming full circle? Of course. Okay. Something happened as it normally would. one particular floor of a pod. I don't know. Some inmate, confidential informant, told an officer,

something was going to kick off or whatever. So they locked this, they locked the whole jail down. They decide to do a week long bout of cell extractions and searches. So everybody got assigned to different supervisors. advisors, teams, this and that. And there was no more emergency response team. They got rid of K-9. And one of the other things that made that new jail so bad,

they got rid of all cigarettes and nicotine. So what did you have left? A bunch of younger generation gang members, because all the older shock callers, they were in state prisons or dead. This was like a newer generation. And the place was just off the hook. So during this lockdown and during this week long, like every day you're assigned.

You're not assigned to a pod. You're assigned to, oh, sorry, these teams to extract and search who you think my sergeant was, just based on this ongoing ramble of anybody, any characters I described to you. The woman? Yeah. Yeah. The woman that went off on you. Yeah.

who probably was chomping out the bit to ever get a second whack at you. Yeah. So I knew what I was dealing with. So I kept to myself, did my thing. Let's just say during that week, there was a time when stuff was kicking off a little bit in certain areas of that jail. So a lot of that could be done very peacefully. You know, you don't need to go and. make everything level five and um defcon and where every extraction is some maniacal thing that you would see on like gangland or in pelican bay you know it didn't it got like that it but not that wasn't every day but this particular day got a little heightened and you feel you know when energy is changing it was one of those days you could feel what officers you could feel with inmates

Meanwhile, what am I also doing? I'm counting days to getting a notification of did I, did my retirement get approved, right? So it was pretty much part for the course. Inmate popping off. We take him out. He goes to Adseg, this and that. She found, we're all done now. Days over.

We're debriefing. Every day ended up with a debrief. if the supervisor knew how to debrief and not everybody had tactical experience all this so we're sitting there and different teams are in different rooms and you're pretty much all together long story short she found a way

to single me out in this debrief and rip me in the ultimate most demeaning way that I think you could address somebody including their race, their physical appearance, just ripping me, ripping me, ripping me, ripping me.

I had my own rebuttal, but not enough to be written up. And by the way, with all these stints and this and that, never late to work, never written up. Good record. She had it out for me. You know, it happens. Um, she crossed the line, though, uh, with calling me a white something in this in front of officers.

And she was even told, like, in that time by guys that I worked with that were black, they were, they were like appalled. But this new jail was different, you know. Remember before I told you, you didn't have too much racial segregation between officers? This new jail was a lot different. You went into the chow hall. With the officer mess hall, the black officers were on that side and the white officers were on this side and yet a few that you knew that I'm like, this is, this is weird, man, you know, this is, but this is, this is what they created.

Along with already what would be, what is a powder cake every day, the place was volcanic, you know. Okay, she does her thing. So I said, you know what? I know I could bide my time and I said, I'm putting her on paper, man. So I wrote her up. You didn't see much of that.

You didn't see officers writing supervisor. I wrote her up. And it went up to chain. And from what I understand, she was called in by a warden at the time. His name was Larry Glover. This administration was big with recruiting administrators that weren't internal guys from their

neighborhoods like that other mentality, right, that I described before, the old kind of soprano-ish thing. Now their new thing was to take guys that had State Department of Corrections experience and bring them in here and look down upon the county guys. That was their thing. So at that time, this guy Larry Glover was a warden at Northern State Prison. You're familiar down there? Yeah.

Bad guess that one there. Okay. He came over from Northern State and he was, he didn't mince his words and he was pretty strict. Some of his policies were off the wall, as were many of his predecessors, but it's what it was. I get called in to his office.

I knew it had to do with her. And he goes, Officer Kelly, I see here you had an incident with, this particular sergeant, I said, yes, sir, during this detail, during a debrief, she, per my report, I said this, she went above and beyond what you,

this was not a reprimand, this was a personal attack. And I said, in Warden, all due respect, this probably goes back to some years ago when, you know, she put her purse. personal, you know, this was all personal. I said, but I'm sorry, this is, this is crazy, you know, what she was saying. He goes, well, isn't that interesting because aren't you, didn't you put your paperwork in for retirement? I said, I did. He goes, well, you know, he basically tried to use some words to try to leverage me, like as if he was going to disturb that

retirement process. I said, well, uh, warden, that would be, um, that would be, um, that would be interesting because I'm not going to say anything further about it. You could talk to my attorney about that. The county can, I'll notify what you told me to my attorney, and then you guys could figure that out, but I feel like you're threatening me right now. He de-escalated back a little bit. She wound up having to apologize. I never saw that, but apparently it occurred or was written or something, whatever.

And 90 days later, I got my full retirement. lo and behold. And that journey and sets of stints was now behind me. Wow. What a story. Interesting. And it's perceived,

as you can imagine, you're not the first to ever hear that. And it could be perceived various ways, right? I have matured enough to take each segment of that under the umbrella it was of a lot of life lessons, a lot of positive stuff,

some incidental hurdles. I can't say I can sit here and regret any of it. I truly felt any time I tried to propel myself, it was in an upward direction, right? whether it was, you know, professionally or training-wise or, and some things just felt opportunities. And negative instances where you're forced into certain situations.

It's what it is, man. That's life, right? Yeah. It's Curr-Ball Central, bro. It's Curb Bowl Central on top of the land of misfit toys, on top of the Sopranos, and on top of what I perceive as the ultimate soap opera of certain law enforcement jurisdictions, you know? Crazy. We're going to have to do a part two about the whole private detective stuff.

It's up to you, man. Yeah, I mean, we're at two and a half hours right now. Is it really? Yeah. Oh, wow. So Dr. Kelly, thank you so much for coming on the show today. No, absolute pleasure. This is an incredible story.

Really? Yeah. You think so? Yeah, you told it very. better than any correctional officer that's been on the show, like to piece it together your journey, you know? I appreciate that. I appreciate that.

I, my wife will not be shocked about the time. And I hope you're able to do what you've got to do here to get it to a proper time frame. Oh, no, no, I don't edit it. It'll go as is. Gotcha. Your whole store will go as is. But we'll do a whole other segment one of these days about just your PI stuff.

Oh, I'd love to. I'd love to come back. If you're willing to. Yeah, of course. It'll be totally different. I think I'll do it justice. I think I will do the PI segment justice, but I do understand that time is of the essence, and that's for another day.

Yeah, it actually worked out better that we got a full correctional officer story in one episode, and then it's a two for one. I'll get another one with just the PI stuff, which is cool. That would be awesome, man. That would be awesome, because I think you and your audience, which I know, I don't sugarcoat things. I want to say you've had a pretty meteoric rise yourself in this vertical. You're doing well for yourself.

And that's a testament of the work you're putting in here. And the guests you're having and, right, the stories people bring forth. And I would like to definitely share that other vertical with you. Absolutely. Yeah, we'll get it on the book. So we'll make it happen. Let's do it. Yeah.

Thank you, brother.