Locked In with Ian Bick - Inside the Mind of a Crime Reporter: Exposing Dr. Henry Lee, Wrongful Convictions & Forensic Science | Caitlin Burchill

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

Caitlin Burchill, an NBC Connecticut Consumer Investigator, joins us to dive into the documentary Traces of Doubt and the controversies surrounding renowned forensic expert Dr. Henry Lee. In this episode, Caitlin shares insights from her work as a crime reporter, discussing the challenges of uncovering truth in crime reporting and the impact of Dr. Lee's findings on high-profile cases. We explore the realities behind crime stories, how the media approaches criminal investigations, and the questions raised by Traces of Doubt. #DrHenryLee #TracesOfDoubt #CrimeReporting #TrueCrimeDocumentary #ForensicControversy #NBCInvestigation #JusticeUncovered #CrimeAndMedia Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Caitlin Burchill: IG: https://www.instagram.com/caitlinburchill/?hl=en Watch Traces of Doubt: https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/investigations/henry-lee-criminal-court-cases-forensics/3349891/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introduction to the Interview with Caitlyn 00:03:13 The Role of a Consumer Reporter 00:06:40 The Impact of Dr. Henry Lee on Famous Trials 00:10:23 Bias in Forensic Science 00:14:09 Reevaluating Forensic Evidence in Cold Cases 00:18:14 The Emotional Challenges of Interviewing the Wrongfully Convicted 00:21:25 Dr. Henry Lee's Involvement in High-Profile Cases 00:25:05 Advocating for Wrongful Convictions 00:28:43 Challenges in Investigating Cases 00:32:16 The Influence of Dr. Henry Lee on Forensic Science 00:35:50 Challenges of Conducting Authentic Prison Interviews 00:39:20 Stories of Wrongful Conviction 00:43:19 Interview Challenges and Documentary Ethics 00:46:29 Secretive Interviews with Mr. Bir and Mr. Henning 00:50:07 Insights from Wrongfully Convicted Cases 00:53:26 Changes in Usage of Booking Photos 00:57:08 Caitlyn's Thoughts on Driving News Traction Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Caitlin, welcome to Lockton. I think you are our first. Is it news reporter or anchor? What's the exact title? News reporter's good. Journalist, I'll take. Journalist, that's better. Yeah. That's a better word. I'm honored. Thanks for having me. Because you've had so many interesting guests. I'm like, how can I sit in this chair? So thank you. No, we love getting like different perspectives of the criminal justice system from all different, you know, walks of life. And we were just talking about, you know, other interviews we've done that are kind of similar, but different. I think this is very different. And it's a hot topic trending case in Connecticut right now. It really is.

Yeah. So we just came out and I work with NBC Connecticut and we just came out with a documentary and we spent a year doing it, which in local news is rare because, you know, it's kind of news of the day fast and quick. But yes, it's called Traces of Doubt, the Friends. of Dr. Henry Lee. And if you live in Connecticut, and perhaps across the country, you've heard the name Dr. Lee before. Yeah, and something that was surprising.

I didn't realize it was tied into the wood chipper case, too, which is like an infamous, like I grew up hearing about that case because everyone would make fun of, oh, don't get put through the wood chipper or this and that. And as we were driving here, actually, a wood chipper was in front of me. And I was like, is that a sign? But yeah, that was just a horrific case in the 80s. And that's what put Dr. Henry Lee on the map was the woodchipper. and you've heard of it, but if your viewers haven't,

it was the first case in Connecticut that was where there was a murder conviction without finding a body because a woman's body, as they found out, police found out, and Dr. Henry Lee found out she went through a wood chipper, unfortunately, and died. So it was a big deal, and that's really what put Dr. Henry Lee on the map is like a famed forensic scientist, and he continued his rise. Now, how did you get into your current role? Did you always want to aspire to be like that? It's such a good question.

No, I wanted to play college volleyball. I still don't know what I want to do. I feel like that's such a, but yeah, I wanted to play college volleyball and went to college for that. And then I was like, this isn't, this isn't my career. I'm six, I'm six, five, I wish I was six. I'm five six. Like this is, and I did an internship. And I did an internhip at New England Cable News and it was summer of 2011.

And they called us the good luck, bad luck interns. Because, so I'm in Boston, I'm behind the scenes and the Bruins won a Stanley Cup, which is just, was awesome. There was a tornado, Springfield tornado. It hit, which when does that happen, right? And then there was tons of political news, but the biggest was Whitey Bulger was caught that summer, which if you're a Boston person. I mean, that's been the, he's like, you know, it's all the talk. So I worked that summer and I was like, wow, this is really interesting and cool. And I love being able.

I love people. I feel like your job, right? You don't do the same thing every day. Every day is different, right? I get to talk to people like literally every day. I have an interview almost like every day. day. It's so cool. Isn't that cool? And you can just, and I love that I can help tell like a first draft of history or I can kind of, I can look into things as I've gotten more involved with my career.

It's not just news of the day. Now I can, I'm doing a documentary. Like I can actually look into things now and investigate and I mostly help consumers a lot too, which is really fun. Now, do you just do one subject matter like crime or are you kind of diverse? Great question. So when I started out, it was News of the Day and I've actually worked in Maine, Utah, and now Connecticut. So I've been all over and covered a lot of things. But now I'm actually our consumer reporter. So we have, it's really rare. We have, our station has like a hotline.

Basically a hotline or email. You can email in and we help people with consumer complaints because there's this, our NBC felt like there was this missing thing. Like you can go out, you know, you can call your state or you can call this, but like you need someone who can advocate for you. So yeah, that's what I do. I do most of the time, but I'm part of our investigative unit. And when the Ricky Birch and Sean Henning case came up, I said, that should be our next documentary.

So I took a little left turn into covering crime for a bit. Now, do you guys actually read every response? Because, like, I remember when I was going through my stuff with the nightclub back in the day, I was always, like, putting out press stuff and never really got an answer. Not from, like, specifically you guys, but from anyone, any news organization. So I will say I get, we get, oh my gosh, I have to delete my emails. Like, you know, when your email box gets full. probably every three days. Really?

Oh, we get so many emails with the consumer hotline. So it's called NBC Connecticut responds. If you live in Connecticut, we can help you. But we do. That is, we make sure to read everything and respond to everyone. Unless they write like, oh, Caitlin looks terrible today. Because sometimes we get these like unrelated. It's an interesting walk of life.

But that's part of the problem is sometimes the news station you get, they're bombarded with. I mean, literally every three days, I have to delete my email. And do you have a team that makes sure, like, it's actual newsworthy or? Yeah. So for folks, yeah, I mean, I can kind of like do the basics of a news day. Yeah. So I'll get, we have our consumer database. So I'm kind of on that different end.

And our investigative team will just kind of work on the bigger things. We're interested. Our station's interested in the town and the community is interested. But usually every morning at a news station, you basically come in and news, the reporters have been doing their research in the morning while they drink coffee. You kind of are always trying to stay up on it. See if you got any tips, social media, and there's a big morning pitch meeting. And you have these assignment editors and you have producers and managers all just, you kind of all talk and decide, well, what's kind of the most important news of the day?

Is it something with weather? Was there crime overnight? It just really depends. Or maybe it's a really fun feature story because we need happy news too. So there's that balance of figuring out what we cover. Now, how common is it for like an NBC to make like a documentary like you did with this? Not coming at all. It really isn't. Local news, I mean, as you know, you're seeing the podcasting world change, local news is having to make so much change and adjustment with social media and people not really, you know, turning on their TV at 5 o'clock and having their turkey dinner, right? Like, it's a different world. So this is super, this was an opportunity of a lifetime tale to do a documentary. And NBC Connecticut's done three, three different documentaries. It's super rare. We're owned by NBC. like the fatherhood that you know you have like this awesome organization so we're lucky that

they um let us do this and help support us um and my our bosses that wanted to do it because you don't get this time and opportunity to investigate in this fast-paced TikTok tweeting world so it was one year that I got to spend now is it would you consider it like a true crime documentary is that the category yeah I think so you just finished it I really do I think um it's true crime and it hits on so many topics. Forensics and the future of forensics, wrongful convictions. And you go through so many famous, we go through so many famous trials during this case, too. And we have the file footage. So we're looking at Dr. Henry Lee's life, this fame forensic scientist, his rise to fame, which was quite spectacular. He's our hometown hero in Connecticut.

And then there was a problem. We heard about this case, Ricky Birch and Sean Henning, a wrongful conviction. Two men spent 30 years in prison for something they didn't do. And when we heard that, we're like, huh. And part of the reason for their wrongful conviction or getting out of prison was because a judge said Dr. Henry Lee said something incorrect during the trial. And the state ended up paying about these guys $25.2 million, 30 years of their lives lost. And that just, I can remember I'm sitting in our investigative corner. And I'm like, wow. You know, this is the fan. And I'm the named Dr. Henry Lee, that's a big, for a judge to say he said something incorrect, it's a big, it's a big deal. And 30 years, 60 years combined, prison for something you didn't do. So we just

thought back on that and we said, well, let's look at his entirety of his career and had there been other blips on the radar. And that's what we do. No, was he actually being interviewed or were those old interviews from a different? We actually, so Dr. Henry, if you read like the Daily Beast has had a really good article about kind of some of the questions around questionable cases over the years. But no one sat down with him. And my colleague Glenn Bestoff interviewed Dr. Henry Lee three times, twice on camera for over an hour and a half each. So it's pretty incredible. And the fact that he did that too, Glenn Bestoff has kind of a history with Dr. Henry Lee. He interviewed him in North Carolina while he worked there with a staircase murder.

was happening. It's a pretty famous one. So Len has built kind of a, I wouldn't say a relationship, but as, you know, he's gained respect from Dr. Henry Lee. So Dr. Henry Lee sat with Lee, sat with Len for five, six hours. And we kept going back and, like, questioning him about these cases. And Lee stands by his work and he tells us he has never made a mistake. Yeah, most of the true crime docs you see where there is like a wrongful conviction, you never get the guy that made the mistake that put the person behind wrongfully. I was just watching a documentary about the kid that was the football player who got the sentence to prison for like sexual assault or rape

and like the prosecutors were corrupt, the cops were corrupt, and then it ultimately, well, they didn't end up doing the interview. I think they had the sheriff but not the prosecutors after he got released and was proved wrongfully convicted. I'll have to watch that. Wow. Yeah, you don't. And this was like people are like, wait, what?

He sat for, he did. And that enabled us, you know, we did the first interview, You lent it. And we asked him a bunch of questions about, mainly about this Ricky Birch and Sean Henning case. And then we kind of, then he let us come back. So then we could ask him about, like, we just kept asking him hard questions. And he led us. And I think it's the only time anyone's ever been able to do that with Dr. Henry Lee.

Yeah, something I didn't realize was I thought when those articles came out about the case because it was in New Milford and the guys getting released was that he just worked specifically for the state. But then watching the documentary, he worked for defense teams and the case. state. Yeah, all across the country, too. So OJ Simpson, he was part of OJ's defense team, Phil Spector, who's part of that case. Yeah, and he even told us he said he gives his money, what he tells us, Dr. Henry Lee says he gives his money to the University of New Haven. So there's an institute named after him. Cases are taught in, you know, about, you know, he's how, showing kids like, this is how you do forensic science. He says he's given $40 million to the university based on the fees from being on all these cases.

So something that stuck out to me towards the end was the theory that how could someone be impartial when they're being paid on a certain side? What's your opinion through doing these interviews and finishing the documentary about that? It doesn't make you think. Like even I'm still, I'll rewatch our documentary. And we all have some kind of bias. And as much as we don't want to, you know, in my work, I try to make sure I'm unbiased at all times, but I'm not perfect. And there are studies we've, we learned from the Connecticut Innocence Project. There are studies that if you're asked to do something for the defense or the prosecutors, you're going to probably sway a little bit their way. So I think it's fascinating. I think it makes you think about criminal cases differently, right? Like now I'm like, huh, and who's the expert? Right. There's all these experts.

witnesses, you know, what is their expertise? I think it makes you think a lot about that. Even on the law enforcement side, it kind of raises, you know, some thoughts into that, you know, like the cops that are looking to find the bad guy do. Sometimes are they so, you know, straight and arrow looking to get that one person once they have a suspect in mind that, you know, they go for that no matter the cost. And I think that's the argument in the Ricky Burch and Sean Henning cases. Basically, they're 17 and 18 years old in the 1980s in New Mexico.

Milford. A guy named Everett Carr is his throat slash. He stabbed 20 plus times. It's horrific. And I sat down with Ricky for the first time ever since his wrongful conviction and that big the settlement. And he was like, we were doing bad things. Like he's so honest and he's such a good guy. He's like, I was doing burglaries. I was stealing stuff. Like I was, you know, he goes, I think I was just an easy target. To this day, they're actually suing New Milford detectives for in a civil suit. New Milford says they did nothing wrong. They said they did everything right. But his argument would be that. It's kind of like we were the easy, easy guys to point out. And there was a lot of public pressure. I think you don't think about that either. There's a lot

of pressure on forensic scientists from families. Like they want justice, but to what end? Now, when you go through cases of Dr. Lee and you go all the way back in time, do you think that they're all, you know, messed up cases? Like, he made mistakes? Or do you think that, you know, he started off with the best intentions and then somewhere along, you know, the fame and publicity got to him? And I think that's the question we let viewers think about when they watch this documentary. So watch it, NBC, Connecticut, and Peacock. It's coming out on two. But I think it makes you think. Dr. Lee has absolutely done so much for forensic science. He's the godfather of forensic science. Rape Kits.

as we know it in Connecticut to collect and help prosecute rapes. They wouldn't be here without Dr. Henry Lee. So he's done so much, but are you perfect? He says he's never, ever made a mistake. We asked him multiple times. He stands behind all of his work. But we found, I mean, Ricky Birch and Sean Henning, a judge said he was incorrect. He made an error.

And in that case, it's a blood evidence on a towel. So for the Ricky Birch and Sean Henning case, basically, the prosecutor said this one towel in the bathroom that had some blood on it was proof that they killed this man, was part of the proof that they killed this man and cleaned up, you know, cleaned up themselves. And the state, the attorney general's office will even tell you that they say that towel was never tested in a crime lab. Lee says he tested it. He says, you know, he says he sprays chemicals. He says he testified in court in the 80s that there was blood on it. He stands by his testimony, but it has been ruled that that was never tested.

No, I mean, this is a different time period back then. I feel like there's so many cases judging just by this interview where they just relied on the forensic pathologists or whoever's just testimony because they didn't have those, you know, DNA type kits. So do you think all of these former DNA type cases should be reopened that were based on just a sole person's testimony? I think it's, it makes you question. I think this is part of the reason why we did this documentary,

because you saw, if you watch it, lawmakers are like, do you open all these up? I'm not the one to make that decision, but I do think it makes you look back. I mean, you're seeing so many with the science is so different. They used to do bite marks, right? Bite marks used to be like a big thing. That has been told, that's quote unquote,

what people call junk science. Different hair molecule. They used to be able to like read it, or even blood spatter analysis, like the National Academy of Science is like, that's just not reliable. So it's a different, it was a different world. And Dr. Lee does say that. He does say to us, how is it fair to look at a case from 30, 38 years ago and compare it to now? How many discounts does USA auto insurance offer?

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knowing that there were families, you know, affected by it with actual victims and people in these cases someone had lost a life. So to go back and reopen it and, you know, raised doubt on the person, the suspect that the family has closure with because they went, you know, put a, went and got locked up for many years. How does that make you feel? I mean, it's, it's, the cases we looked at had either already been questioned, but nonetheless, I always think about the families. I mean, I'm at, well, I can't, it's just heartbreaking and horrible for these families for what they've been through.

And the fact that these cases may may still be questioned 20 years later, you know, the Carr family. Now no one's, they don't know who killed Everett Carr after Ricky Burch and Sean Henning are released from prison. 30 years later. So I'm, oh, it's, it's awful. I mean, we're, I try to, when I report stories and news is just to be like, I'm human. I'm like, we're all the same and I can't. I try to remember that when I do reporting. When you do your interviews, right? You're like, I'm just the same as you, you know. Yeah, and you kind of have to stay like neutral. People ask me why I interview certain people and everyone has a story to share. And they're either on the wrong side of it and in the middle of it or on the good side of it and you kind of like to hear all the different perspectives through that

person's lens. I literally, sorry mom and dad, but I have that tattoo. Everyone has a story. And the rest of the coys have the patience to listen and the wisdom to change, right? The patience to listen, something like that. But that to me is, like, key. And that's why I'm like, I hope there's a lot of, you know, media reporters, this. And I just hope I can help people in some way or bring light to something or give, you know,

give hope to someone too that might not have had it or might not have had a voice and i think with this documentary that was really important um we hadn't heard from ricky birch or sean henning these guys just spent 30 years in prison for something they didn't do and um we're glad and thankful that they took the time to share their story because they don't want it to happen to anyone else yeah what's their demeanor you know someone that's been in in prison for that long and then finds out they they were wrongfully convicted well they knew they were wrongfully convicted but the world finds out what's that like being in the same room as them and interviewing them? And before we started interviewing, it wasn't an easy task.

Like, it wasn't easy to get it to get Ricky. It took a couple, six, seven, eight months to build trust. Because I was like, I swear I'm not trying to, you know, you know, who do you trust after being in prison for 30 years for something you didn't do? I don't blame him. So I was like, you know, we can, it's not live. You know, you can start over. You can do it.

But he walked into the room and. I'm just such a nice, nice guy. And I have, I don't know, I think about that interview all the time, goosebumps, because he said something to the effect of like, it's the opportunities they took. He spent most of his, all of his adult life in prison. Can't have kids now. It was really emotional. But he and Sean both said they wanted to share their story with us just to make sure there's more checks and balances in place in the future.

Do you think when someone like Henry Lee, you know, sees their interviews that might change his opinion on some of his actions? Like, do you think that he is capable of feeling emotion for that? Because anyone that watches that feels, you know, emotion for what these individuals went through? I'd be interested. We haven't heard from Dr. Henry Lee since this aired. Yeah, and we did ask him. We said, what would you say to Ricky Birch, you know, if he was sitting here? What would you say to Sean Henningham?

And he, you know, like pretty emotionless. And he just says, you know, it wasn't, I didn't convict them. I didn't convict them. I didn't make any mistakes. So I don't know. I don't know if you can change someone, but I'm glad we could let their voices be heard. What about the law enforcement perspective of this? Did you guys reach out to like the new Milford Police Department?

And did they want to do it or why did they not want to do it? So we stuck. Yeah, we didn't. For that case, we reached out to them, but more so for the, you know, for their reaction. And there's a lawsuit underway. Still, Ricky Birch and Sean Henning have a lawsuit against New Milford and police detectives. But we didn't, I mean, we could have, you could have been a whole documentary on Ricky and Sean's case and their experience and the car murder. But we really wanted to focus on Dr. Henry Lee. So we, for those who watch it, you'll see,

you'll see like the rise of Dr. Henry Lee, OJ Simpson case. We just really go through his timeline. And we didn't, as much as I, we would want to talk to more people. We kind of wanted to stay in the, the Dr. Henry Lee. He's our hometown hero. We wanted to take a look at his past. So what exactly is his or was his job title and description? And was that common to use individuals like that back in the day? It's a really good question. So he came from Taiwan in the 60s. He went to police school there. He said he went there to, it was free. So it made sense to someone with Humble, you know, who didn't have a lot of money in Taiwan, became the youngest police captain there. It's really quite a story. And they came to the U.S. went to a call.

college here. And it was quite, quite the American dream, right? Like, all of a sudden, he's now at the University of New Haven. He becomes the chief in the 70s. He becomes Connecticut's chief, forensic lab chief. He was that for decades. And then later becomes the public safety commissioner, too. So he had huge roles here. We have always had those roles. Has it always been a forensic scientist? No, right? It's just, you know, it's fascinating. So he eventually leaves politics. service son to go into private practice? So even while he's in public service, we found he was still, like, OJ Simpson was 93, Phil Spector case was 03-ish, like around those timelines.

So even during his public service, he was being consult. He was the consultant. Oh, so that wasn't a conflict of interest or anything. He was allowed to be hired. That's a great question. That's something, you know, as we're doing, it, you kind of see the timeline. And you're like, hmm, even during some of his service here, he had a television show. Trace evidence that was on court TV, which I think is a really

interesting part. We have some of that in our documentary. I saw that. It seemed very kind of corny a little bit too at what he was doing like that show, not the documentary, but that show. Thank you. Thank you. No, his show, you know, just like the reenactments and walking through it. Isn't it interesting? And we, so we got, I went to Louisiana to interview. a man convicted of murdering his wife. And he's adamant to this day. He didn't do it. Henry Lee was brought in to look at this case.

It had been a hung jury and this man's friend had been initially charged. And now, instead of being the star witness, the husband is now also a co-defendant. So he really thinks when Henry Lee was brought in, his fate changed. And there's an episode. Henry Lee does. Dr. Henry Lee has an episode of how he says he solved that crime. So we showed it to Carrie Myers. We showed it to this man convicted of murder who's now out of prison.

And that was quite the reaction. So for folks, if you watch our documentary, it must be hard to see how someone portrays what happened that night. Yeah, because Henry Lee kind of, you know, contradicts himself because he said he didn't really know much about the case. And he was just there to give like the expert testimony. And now he's saying that there was a laundry basket and this and that that was used in the killings. It changed up quickly. But it also goes to the theory of like kind of sold out for, in this day and age, it'd call it like views or publicity.

And I think that's how Keri Myers saw it for sure. It was just like, wait, how? This wasn't what happened. But yeah, they both stand by their stories. And that's why we're like, we really just want to show this to viewers, show them kind of all what existed in one package of Dr. Henry Lee's life and legacy. Do you think as a journalist you're able to sit down, with someone and know that they're actually innocent after telling their story?

Like, do you know guilty from innocent just by talking to someone? No, I feel like that would be, no. Some prison guards, like, will say that they have, like, kind of that sense. Like, if someone is really actually innocent, they kind of just know, you know, you get to see the character of a person and learn more. And as a journalist, you're really diving into their story. Yeah, I think I, if I could, with this one, we spent so much time with so many cases. It wasn't like I was just with one person.

I think that would be different for sure. Yeah, no, I don't have that sixth sense. Definitely not. And Carrie, who is the male in that, what's it like being around him after, you know, he served 30 years for killing his wife or allegedly killing his wife, which he was found that he didn't do. But what's like the, I guess the aura being around him and in the community when you were there to? Yeah, so Carrie actually was, he was convicted of killing his wife. And he was commuted. So that's why I got to meet him.

He was out of prison. He was commuted. He stands by that he didn't do it. He's actually with the Louisiana Parole Project now. So that was really interesting. So he says, you know, he's Adam and he didn't kill his wife. He was convicted of killing her. But now he helps other people in situations like he was to, you know, in prison, long sentences.

So we were with him for a little bit. And it was cool to see his work and how he's helping other people. Like, you know, they provide free advocacy and legal work. And they help people when they get out of prison. for housing and stuff. So do you think anyone will, or has anyone come out and say like this is actually like deliberate of what he's done, Dr. Henry Lee? Has anyone come out and done that yet?

And what will be the ramifications from that? I know. No, no one's come out and said, and you know, he stands by his work, like I said, there has been studies, the National Institute of Justice. We actually spoke with John Morgan, who's this engineer who studied all these wrongful convictions for the National Institute of Justice. And I think that is more of what we're seeing now is kind of looking back at wrongful convictions, what we're wrong. Was it, you know, he went through like an engineer would and was it biased? Was it purposeful mistakes? And in his take is that Henry

Lee, it wasn't a purposeful error. But maybe he got, he didn't, how did he say it? You know, maybe he got a little ahead of himself, a little too big for his britches, perhaps really believed in his theory. That was John Morgan's take. So I think we're seeing that with the innocence product. Don't you think of kind of like going back looking at what was wrong and hopefully what can be done better in the future? What do you think about the like the withholding evidence accusations that were in some of those cases? I noticed that was kind of a common theme.

Yeah, that really was. And obviously, you know, in some cases those police officers aren't even alive anymore or those were part of the civil lawsuit. I think it's interesting. We didn't dig necessarily into if it was true, if it wasn't true. And it's hard because these cases were from the 80s. It's not like they had computers. That was probably the biggest thing here. I was even like, even reporting back then would have been different.

No cell phones. So one day we were in Danbury at the Historical Society, like using going through like the old school newspapers just to like figure out what happened. So I think that's a lot of it too. It's not like the case files are electronic and with all the details and, you know, that kind of thing. How hard is it to go back into these, you know, police stations and, and courthouses and get documents from cases from the 80s or the 90s when there wasn't as, you know, technology as it is today? It's a bit of a challenge. It's like a scavenger hunt.

It's a scavenger hunt. And then you're like, it's hard to hunt down. You're trying to figure out what court, the case. case was prosecuted in, but it might have moved to a habeas court because there was a prison, you know, they were in prison and trying to get out. So it's like a scavenger hunt and you're like, it's just in paper boxes, you know, like all of this important stuff to someone's life, their future is in these boxes. So it was hard. We ended up finding a lot of evidence. We saw evidence that a lot of people haven't seen before and were able to get footage of that.

But it's not like it's perfectly computerized whatsoever. We were going through boxes and they're like dusty. But it's fascinating. There was even some, some of the court boxes we found like Sean Henning's own personal notes, like during trial of like his thoughts he was having. Like I didn't, you know, like this isn't correct or whatever. It's really eye-opening and cool. So you can do it.

It just takes work. Do you ever find the evidence is missing, like it got lost or anything when you go and inquire about some of these cases? In doing this project, sometimes it's hard. It was just hard. to find stuff or like some boxes would be here, but where was the rest of it? So yeah, we're still to this day in one case in particular. We want to look at this notebook and it's sealed somewhere. So we're going to keep fighting and looking for it. But yeah, definitely we didn't see everything,

but at some point you just got to keep moving on. Now, does anyone in the public have access to this kind of evidence or is it just because you're a journalist? That's a good question. I think I think they're public record. I do. I think, you know, like you can FOIA things and you can ask to see things. So I think you just have to know your rights and know the public access laws and should be able to. Also on the topic of evidence, I thought it was very strange that Dr. Henry Lee just had like what was it, the acrylic nails and he was supposed to like ship them to the defense team or which could have been like a smoking gun in the case. Is that normal? I don't think. Yeah, that whole case, so if you're going to watch our documentary, please, please do. Because this is really, it's the Phil Spector case. Like this guy's the Phil Spector, right?

Like music producer to the celebrities, Beatles. So that is a big, so it's a fingernail, a missing part of this woman's fingernail is a big part of that case. And Dr. Lee's his reputations question because of this piece of evidence. He says he didn't pick it up. Someone said they saw him pick up. So we kind of show that. through history and a lot of file footage and how he says he wanted to ship it. Is Dr. Henry Lee still practicing?

Like, is he still active in his role? He's incredibly active still. He's 86 years old at the time we spoke with him. He says he gets up every morning, you know, kind of works out. He gets up early. He lectures still and there's still an institute at the University of New Haven in his name. I wonder how it's going to affect if he can even do another trial or cases because when you have something like this out there kind of taints, you know, the jury pool.

That's a great question. And from my understanding, I think he's kind of retired in that aspect. But he's written dozens of books, papers, and continues to lecture. How is his character when you were talking to him or even seeing the stuff that didn't make it into the documentary? Do you think he's likable to like a, if you were on a jury, would you find him likable and trustworthy and believable? So that's the number one thing we heard from. We went back and looked at old juror interviews from all. cases we looked at and people think he's a fantastic. He's really entertaining, really gregarious. He's really engaging. He makes a lot of jokes. He really a likable person on the stand from what we

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So for any, we would, we went back through the perk of like doing this as an NBC employee. It was like the file footage. You know, like there's just file footage for days. So we would go through all these different interviews and we would go through like every news story for all of these cases and just. and just see. And at some of them, the jurors do speak. So, you know, in one I can remember saying, yeah, he was so entertaining and it was fascinating. Did you see any of like why they convicted or why they were on the edge in any of these cases? Yeah. And I think in a few, in the few of the cases you'll hear from the juror, the Phil Specter case is one of them. You'll hear from the jurors. One of the jurors. Yeah, I think it just every case is different depending on what they heard, what they saw, who they believed. And people put so much weight on forensic science.

And I think that's something we learned during this documentary, too. Like jurors, jury, we love, people love evidence. They want to know, they want to see it, hear it, believe it. And that's why I think Dr. Henry Lee became so fascinating to people. It's like the crime, the CSI era, right? Like you wanted to, we love that. We want to see it. We want to see things happen fast.

It's not necessarily how it works, but he helped open people's eyes to forensic science. Have you ever been on a jury before? I haven't. I don't think they'd ever let me. Yeah, I feel like you would be great on one. The defense would want you because you're a journalist, but you're right. I don't think they would let you. I don't think they would ever let. I've done jury duty once and like, you know, I didn't even get through the door.

I feel like they'd be like, and I, you know, I'm always following what's going on, right? They don't want you to know about the case at hand. That is true. So when you pulled up like old records at NBC and stuff, did they have all the like the news reporting from back then because NBC has been around for forever? Do they have that stored? Yeah, I think that's one of the coolest parts about this documentary, and you were so nice to say you've watched it, so thank you.

No, it is good, and we'll have the description in it. I appreciate that. And it'll be even better on Hulu. Or Peacock, Peacock, sorry. Peacock, thank you. No, no, maybe Hulu too one day. But I think that having, because evidence was so hard to find, tracked down, you know, it's from the 80s,

having all this file footage is really helpful to, like, you get to, like, live, see what it was. like back then to now visually. It's really cool. Now, I think it was like two of these cases, the Connecticut Innocence Project, actually pick them up and help to free these individuals. Can you tell us about that, like how they pick up a case or what information there is about that?

You know, I don't know too much about their process, but I do know that they, they're selective because I'm sure they have everyone and their mother reaching out, you know, for that help. I know they're pretty selective. and when they do stand by someone, they really, they work for years. So for the Ricky Burchson-Henning case, for, I mean, years to help these, to help. You know, the legal system is not very fast, as we all know. So they work for years to help these folks. No, I'm assuming you've never went to prison before or never been arrested or anything like that.

No. So as a, you know, someone looking at all of this information and these stories and facts, how does it make you feel? What have you learned about the criminal justice system? Well, even just for my reporting for 15 years now, I'm always just like that. I feel like so much of how people get into maybe get into trouble, quote, unquote, right? It's like circumstantial, right? Like, that could have been me if I went left instead of right one day.

Like, could have been, it could be my family or could be my brother. When I was in Maine, I did a whole interview. I sat with women because women inmate. population has skyrocketed over the years and just like sat with it was like you know you could have a back injury and you have you take one pill to make you feel better and then next you know you're one of these women I interviewed so I always it could could be me or it could be you like that's how I always feel and I hope it comes off that way when I tell us to worry because it could be me could be our loved ones you've gone into prisons before as a journalist do you ever feel like it's staged

like you're not getting the real answer I've heard you asked this before Now I'm going to the source. Yeah, no, you're right. I went into the women's prison in Maine like 10 years ago. I don't know. I don't know. I was a younger journalist too, so I wasn't like probably as bold. But my interviews were not.

I was kind of, it was just like I went into a room and it was just like whoever wanted to talk to me. They were pretty good about that, but I haven't, wasn't this big federal facility or anything like that. But it was really, really lovely people I met there. And they wanted to share their stories. was like I had this, this happened to me, I was this, you know. So that didn't feel staged to me. It's a tough walking out of there, like after hearing those stories. Like when I interview people inside a facility and, you know, and I know I was in their shoes before and then leaving them, it's tough.

Yeah, you like wanted to, yeah, yeah, like hug them. You were like, wow, you know, the one lady with the back injury turned down a whole new road. you're like, man, you just want to hug her. Yeah. They were nice. I watched the 60 Minutes one on federal prison, and that just seemed like a little bit, I don't know, stage. And some of the inmates even said after,

there was like TikTok clips about saying that they weren't, they were told that they had to say certain things. Oh, that's unfortunate. I mean, then why do the story, right? Yeah, that's true. And then whenever, like, there were celebrities that came to prison, like I was in prison with, what's his name, the guy that was a part of Trump's team or whatever.

towards Papadopoulos, like, they just, everything's different when they come for, like, those two weeks. Well, that's why it's really cool you and the folks you bring on. Like, everyone's bringing a different perspective to know what it's really like when the cameras aren't there or whatnot. But I hope, I think this documentary, I think we really get, like, Dr. Henry Lee, the man, the myth, the legend in a chair for hours, I think is really something you're not going to see anywhere else. So now when you interview, like, you take just a story of a crime case or whatever, are you thinking that this, person might not actually be guilty or, you know, they could be innocent? Are you looking at your journalism in a different way now? Maybe with a little more skepticism. I think any, it opens your eyes to everything. I think, you know, as the court, this will help me covering crime cases in the future

just by, I have kind of the questions to ask or, you know, I think it all opens your eyes to to ask more questions, definitely. When you sat down with these individuals, did you, um, research each individual case or are you kind of like going where the conversation goes and seeing tons of research yeah oh my gosh like I'm not an expert in anything I just am good at googling and like so tons and tons of research and then I go I feel like you're good at it like I go like where the just go where the questioning you know make sure I hit the four questions I want to get but kind of just go where the questioning goes and I think with Ricky Birch for example I did that and I asked him so many times if he was angry about his wrongful conviction.

And he kept saying, you know, it's not worth it. But I think one of the most interesting things that came out of our interview was, because I was like, well, what do you, what do you want justice? Like, what do you want? And he was just like, I want those who were, who wronged me. And it was so interesting to hear. He said, I want them to, it would be nice for them to do 30 days behind prison. Just 30 days, he said, because the horror he left with.

He's like, you're, you're looking over. your shoulder all the time. But that wasn't like it, that question kind of came out of nowhere. And I was like, wow, it was so powerful. 30 days. He did 30 years. And he was in the Connecticut facilities. And also out of state too. Oh, they moved them out of state too. Were they together in their stay? They were together for a little bit. Sean Henning within a couple, within their beginning of their stay, he tells us, we didn't get into this in the documentary, but he was stabbed through his chest. And Ricky was there for that and saw that. It was really bad. Yeah, I think they'd be great on the show.

You've got to get involved because I think you could really get into their stay and their time. Yeah, I mean, everyone's been asking for like a wrongfully convicted, you know, case. So far this is as close as we're getting because people are hesitant and, you know, it's their story. And this is a new world. Imagine going to prison 30 years ago coming out and now there's a pod. There's podcasts. There's true crime documentaries. There's everything.

Sean was telling. And these are, it's totally their stories to tell, but just. like a little anecdote was you get out of prison, you get handed a cell phone. There was no cell phones in the 80s when they went in, right? Like it's a totally different podcast. Now, are you a true crime fan to begin with? Or is this world kind of like new to you? I am.

I do. I really like it. But I, um, when I leave work, I try to like, I need to set boundaries because it's a lot of news. A lot of, you know, TV news. So yeah, I need to set boundaries for myself. So more of a sports gal out. After work. When you look at like these crime scene photos and some of it, you know, they blur out because they're pretty gruesome.

How does that make you feel when you look at these? It's really sad. I'm glad they exist. So we can see the extent of what had happened, right? And we can show folks and blur things out. But hopefully it's horrible, but hopefully it helps tell history in a way so people doesn't get repeated. Yeah. Now, when you're sitting down, are you a part of the editing process of this documentary? Like when you're interviewing, obviously not every interview, not every minute of it makes it in. You have to take a piece from one to go counter another. What's that process like? I think we had about for the documentary that's about it, it ends up being it's like seven sections and it ends up being about an hour. But I think we had 20 hours.

20 hours of time. I remember on our editor, there were an eight-person team who did this. And our editor had. I think at least 20 hours, at least. Because, you know, there's B-roll and interviews. And, yeah, so we kind of all split it up as a team and wrote parts. And that was the hardest part is, like, figuring out how to tell a story, how it's interesting. What's going to be the, how is it going to leave viewers thinking? And we have an editor to do the editing because I couldn't do that. Not like that.

He's amazing. Yeah, like I was thinking about it earlier. Like this format's easy, but the actual, you know, putting the pieces of this person. and saying this and you have this interview and you have to mesh that together and and and figure out how it flows and for some of the shoots we'd have like because we just wanted to get make it look interesting and beautiful and um there might be six cameras on one person so imagine editing with six different camera views it's really cool but it's a feat i couldn't do now where did you actually where are the locations that you filmed i know you went out of state for it but when you were filming locally

was that at these individual's houses so dr henry lee we interviewed him at the institute. So when you walked to our documentary, you'll see it's, we're in, like, his institutes walk, kind of common space. And there's, like, pictures of him and all over the wall. Ricky Burch, we did, we found kind of just a mutual, just kind of a generic spot, you know. So I want you want him to be comfortable, especially when this, you know, it took a while to, for him to want to talk.

And then he was like, you know what, I do want to share. But I wasn't going to do one at his house. Like, we can, you know, you don't have to. And then the other interviews, a lot of them, like Innocence Project was New York. I was in Carrie Myers House in Louisiana. So that, I mean, if people are comfortable doing it, it's a nice place to do an interview because it's your home. Was that the same house that the murder had happened in? Now, what about like the ramifications and the backlash from the documentary on Henry Lee?

Have you seen anything new kind of pop out? Any else, like open up the floodgates? We've heard from a few, we've heard from folks who allege that perhaps there were issues with their case. So we're kind of, we're looking into those, but nothing from Dr. Henry Lee yet. And a lot of people just have left with a lot of, like they want to talk about it more with us. So I think it leaves a lot of questions about forensics in the future. And I hope it leaves people thinking, asking more questions, and maybe being more thoughtful. Like it has changed me.

What do you think the biggest questions are that you've gotten about? it that have been like unanswered so far. I think the one question you asked is the one, you know, do you re-op, it's a one our lawmakers have asked, you know, do you continue to reopen cases, like, to what end? And then the other question is, well, what do you do moving forward? Like, how do you trust experts or how do you, yeah. So I think there's kind of the lingering the past in the future. And John Morgan, who did that survey for the National Institute of the National.

National Academy of Sciences. He thinks there should be more checks and balances, like more of a forensic, like each state should have more of a board that kind of checks each other since every state really differs. Yeah. Do you think Dr. Henry really knew going into this documentary that it was kind of like, you know, anti him in a way, like it was it was being shaped to show that he did something wrong. Did he understand that? Well, we went into telling him we were going to ask him really tough questions. Like we weren't just going to do a, and we wanted to hear about his life and his, and the good things he's done too. But he knew we did, when best off was, you know, we're going to ask you these really tough questions about these cases that have you've been questioned about.

And he gave us the time. And I really, you never see him speak like this to, we haven't before to anyone else. As a journalist, why do you think, what's the psychology behind individuals that, you know, when the documentary is about them in a negative way, why do you think they come and talk to you? Because you do see this like murders agreeing to do, you know, interviews on true crime series and this and that. There's like there's something about them

that makes them want to do it. Yeah, I'm no psychologist. I have no idea, but, you know, people want to tell their side of the story and we wanted to show both. So I'm glad he did. I'm glad people can see both sides

because I think you're going to leave really seeing both sides. And it's interesting. When you do like crime in general stories, does your family ever like give you backlash or anything like that or ask you questions about it? Like how do you stay neutral and this and that? What's your opinion? Yeah. Yeah, they do. They're really supportive.

And they, this one was a big task to, you know, you're questioning a hometown hero. Right. So there was a lot of conversations, a lot of teamwork. Our team just, it was a lot of teamwork. You know, you can really talk. about it though actually we didn't really want to talk about it I didn't really talk about it to anybody it was pretty secret even in our newsroom just because um we didn't want to we didn't want the word to get out that we were doing this um because we worked so hard to get these interviews with

mr. birch and mr. Henning uh yeah so it was really secretive for a while we just didn't want it to get out and someone else beat us to it now do you think he's done more harm than good or more good than harm, knowing everything you know now. I think the viewer will have to make that decision. I'm the unbiased journalist. I'm biased journalist. I think we put everything out there. And I think you'll see for yourself what you think.

Now, do you think there's more people like him out in the world and in different states? You know what? I, not to his, not, do you know of any other forensic scientists that have been talked about? There was a few, there was a Herbert McDonald. there was a few that kind of were in his sphere. Not that I'm aware of and I'd be interested to know. Yeah. If you know anyone, if anyone's watching.

If there was someone who had this kind of clout. So when you spent a year working on this, are you working on any other projects or it's just that? You know, eat, sleep, live it, day and night. It was, no, we still had to be on TV a couple times a week doing consumer stories. So I would be like, you know, doing this, Dr. Lee crime. And then I'd be like trying to help someone. and get their money back for airport or this or, you know, travel stuff.

So it was a lot of compartmentalization, but it was good. Yeah, we still would be on TV. Yeah. And where do you go from this? Like after this documentary, you know, you spent a year work on it. What's next? Do you guys do a follow-up to this at all? Is that a thought?

I think that the possibilities are definitely endless. Like I said, we've heard some from people. If there's the new Milford, there's still a civil lawsuit going on with. Ricky Burch and Sean Henning's case. So there's still more to it. And perhaps there'll be in episode eight, nine or ten. And maybe if more come out of the woodwork, more stories. It'll be interesting to see.

You know, we haven't at this point heard any, haven't heard of any that are making legal steps like this. But if they are, we'll be sure to follow up. How did you decide which ones we're going to make it into the documentary or is that, were those the only cases that were subject to scrutiny that you guys could prove? At this point, those were the ones that were subject to scrutiny. So we said, you know, these ones have had questions. So we're going to focus on those.

Do you know how many cases he's, you know, gotten convictions of in general? Do you know what those stats are? I don't know what his. So he, I mean, he's got, you know, he's helped put people in prison, right? Rightfully. He's helped people avoid prison for sure. I don't know the numbers, but he said he has touched 8,000 to 10,000 cases in his career. Wow.

That's a lot. Imagine me and the person that has to go and look through that. and all of that? No. Yeah, I think it's an interesting fee and an interesting question that even our Connecticut law makers are like, are we going to have to go back? And, you know, is it just a couple of cases out of 10,000? I don't know.

Are any of the attorneys still alive today from any of these cases, the defense attorneys? Yeah, for Ricky Burch and Sean Henning, because that case is still continuous with New Milford. they're still here and around to tell the story. The Woodchipper prosecutor, we sat down with him after this famous case. We heard how that court case happened. So yeah, there was still a lot. It's really fascinating, fascinating people. Yeah, the lawyer interviews are always really interesting because they have such a different perspective.

And then also the ones that are wrongfully convicted cases too. I love hearing that like perspective and documentaries and true crime ones. I couldn't you really listen to their stories all day? Because it's like the little nuggets you don't see on, I mean, even reading trial transcript or something. It's just, there's just so much that you don't, that you can't like usually share in a one and a half minute news story, right? Like that's usually on the news, it's like a quick blip.

So this was to be able to dig into all this and look through for a documentary was really special. And I agree those interviews with lawyers are so cool. Now, do you feel like the press and journalism is fair to people that are, you know, getting charged and arrested? I figured you'd ask this question. And I've been thinking about it a lot. I mean, I think there's the term media too is so weaponized, right? But it's so hard. Like, I'm, we're local news. And I think, you know, local news covers, we want to cover the local. We want to cover what's important to people in town. And I know from our station's perspective, like we are super, we have managers. read our stories so they make sure they have both side of the stories. We have lawyers who are

reading our stories when they get to that point for that much scrutiny. So I hope we're doing the best of our ability. Can I speak for all journalists? There's always some bad apples, right? So unfortunately, like in any business. And are you guys always reaching out for both sides when you do that type of case? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Always. Now, why do you think that there's not like follow-up articles done about the people that have changed their life? Or do you think that's just not newsworthy or or there's just too many of them. And I want to, I think there should be more. I think it's a good point.

I think so often in small local news, there's only so many reporters. There's the big stories of the day. You kind of, you want to get people what they need to know and then you move on. But I think half, if you hear more from the folks in the aftermath, it would be awesome too. Like, could we do a better job of like keeping, you know, that interview I did from six years ago? are they, you know, it would be great to hear from them. We could probably do a better job. It's just such a fast-paced world.

So I think it's a little bit of both. I think we could do better, but it would be great to hear from people more. You have social media, TikTok, write to us, let us know. Yeah, it is a lot, too, to keep track of and handle that. I get that perspective. Even like in this, you know, we still have a calendar of, like, following the court cases and things get moved and there's continuances, just like following one case is hard enough. But I think we could all do better at it.

And I think if people wanted to tell their story, too, we're open to hear their pitches. Send us an email. Has there ever been, like, talk about in the journalism world about not, you know, publishing stories related to crime so it doesn't, like, say, taint a jury pool or anything like that, local in the area? Not necessarily the story itself, but I know NBC, for example, we have this new policy where we're not necessarily putting mugshots out there to put mugshots out there booking photos. and that's a newer thing because what if you didn't do it, right? Then that picture lives. So that's something we're really cool conversations in our newsroom every day of maybe if this is the person, you know, we might put a booking photo out there. If it's someone who's maybe it's an amber alert and they perhaps are accused of kidnapping someone.

Okay, we're on the lookout for this person. But if not, we really don't use booking photos at all anymore for that reason. Because what if you didn't do it? You're just accused at that point. So that's a little bit of a change. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting. And on the topic of those photos that they put out, you know, looking for someone I was interviewing a bank robber the other day. And he was saying that the photos that the police gave the news were a lot grainer than the ones that they actually had.

Kind of like a ruse that, you know, that they actually knew who they were looking for. But they gave him like a grainyer photo to put out into the news. It was an interesting thing when he saw the actual files that the, the, bank camera footage wasn't as grainy as it was made out to be in the news reporting. Interesting. Well, and technology does keep getting better and better and CCTV. So we do think about, I think we're very, we have conversations about what does go out there and what doesn't. And what viewers need to see, should see, want to see, like, you know, when do you cut a clip before it's too, too much?

Yeah. Do you ever go back to a case that you've talked about and wrote about or reported it? on to see where that person went or happened. And it could be crime, not crime, anything in general. Yeah. Yeah. Crime. Or even sometimes you'll, like, see them pop up somewhere else.

And it's fun. Yeah, I do. I do. I wonder what people are doing after I've interviewed them. Is it hard to remember everyone, like by name? Or do you just kind of, like, you do hundreds of interviews? Probably like you, you know, some of them stick with you more than others. Yeah.

For sure. There was one guy. I was just looking him up yesterday. When I was in Maine, I covered a called the North Pond Hermit is what his case became. But for 27 years, he lived in the woods alone. And he survived off of burglarizing folks' house in the wintertime. So, like, no one, he, for 27 years, he lived in the woods. And I always wonder what he's doing right now.

I haven't. He's still, he likes to be by himself, of course. But things like that I do think about. Have you reached out to him or does he reach out to you? I haven't. And that was, I didn't get too, too close to that one. No, gosh. I did.

I think I wrote him a couple letters, though, back in the day. What do you think is the biggest misconception the public has about journalists, you know, news stations, news reporting in general? I think it's that we just do it for the headline or we do it for the salaciousness of the story. And that sure ain't the case for me anyway. Like, it's the people. And it's like I said, like it could be me on the other side. And I think that's the biggest misconception that it's just like we're doing it to be, you know, for that. It's not the case.

Yeah. And I think from my perspective, being on both sides of it, like being the target of like a salacious headline and now being the person that has to make kind of like salacious headlines to drive traction in the story, I get it. You know, like I understood why I was headlined certain ways when news stations were reporting on me. And it goes back to what you were saying about what he had said about, you know, spending 30 days in jail. They should walk a mile in their shoes and what they went through. And I think that's just, you know, such a common theme of, you know, you've got to understand what that person's went through, whether it's in your line of work or my line of work or anything. Humanity, right? Like, we're all human at the end of the day.

So I appreciate what you're doing. And thank you for letting us talk about our documentary. And hopefully we can be insightful for some people. and maybe you'll have a different thought about the news. Yeah, well, hopefully it drives some traction to it. And thank you, Caitlin, for coming on the show today. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.

Awesome conversation. You're the best. Thank you.