Locked In with Ian Bick - Inside the Mind of an Undercover Homeland Security Agent | Jim Weber

Episode Date: March 10, 2025

Jim Weber started in state law enforcement before moving up to the federal level, eventually becoming one of the first agents in the Homeland Security Agency. Over the years, he worked undercover, taking down drug traffickers, human smugglers, and organized crime networks, all while navigating the high-stakes world of federal investigations. In this episode, Jim shares what it was like to live a double life, the risks of undercover work, and the intense pressure of taking down criminals at the highest level. #HomelandSecurity #UndercoverAgent #FederalInvestigation #TrueCrime #LawEnforcement #GovernmentSecrets #CrimeStories #NationalSecurity Thank you to MAGIC MIND & NORDVPN for sponsoring today's episode: Magic Mind: Get 40% off Magic Mind Gummies by going to https://magicmind.com/iangm & using code IAN40 NordVPN: To get the best discount off your NordVPN plan - go to https://nordvpn.com/ianbick which will also give you 4 extra months on the 2-year plan. There's no risk with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://convictclothing.net/collections/convict-clothing-x-ian-bick Timestamps: 00:00:00 Welcome Jim: Exploring True Crime Podcast 00:05:30 MagicMind Gummies Review & Discount Code 00:10:34 From Personal Loss to Law Enforcement Career 00:16:54 Transition from College to Federal Law Enforcement 00:21:42 Origins and Evolution of the US Customs Service 00:27:43 Major Heroin Trafficking Case from Mississippi to Chicago 00:33:34 Transition to Homeland Security: Inception and Adjustments 00:38:48 Transitioning into the Public Safety Group 00:44:49 Balancing Career and Family Sacrifices 00:50:44 Investigating Family Sexual Abuse Cases 00:56:30 Inside Federal Prison: Encountering Offenders 01:02:07 The Undercover Infiltration Process 01:07:58 Confession and Redemption in Law Enforcement 01:14:15 Reflections on Retirement and Unfinished Cases 01:20:06 The Fairness of the Prison System 01:24:48 Discovering Hidden Crime: A Child's Unexpected Role 01:30:21 Embracing Social Media for Success Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airways sale is on now. Fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just 748. Or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with roundtrip fair starting from 839. As a one world alliance member and American Airlines Advantage program partner, your miles go further across the South Pacific. Book now at Fiji Airways.com or contact your local travel agent. Conditions apply. Well, let's get into it, Jim.

Jim, welcome to Lockton. Thank you so much for making the trip out here to not only be on my show, but I'm going on your podcast after this. Yeah, absolutely. I'm excited about it. I appreciate it. Yeah, and tell the audience what your podcast is, where they could find all that good stuff.

Sure. It's called The Right to Remain Silent, True Crime Podcast. And I started it maybe, oh gosh, I started working on it about a year and a half ago. And should I give you kind of the backstory about it? Yeah, I would love to hear it. Okay, yeah. I was a federal agent.

for 22 years. I was in law enforcement for about 30. And about a year and a half ago, you know, I retired three years ago. And about a year and a half ago, I was contacted by local media in the St. Louis area. And I said, hey, would you talk to us about this investigation and this movie? And I said, well, what are you talking about? And they told me about this movie that had come out. And it was actually, as I looked into it, I learned that it was actually about a defendant that I investigated and arrested, and it was a very substantial case. So, long story short, I went on this radio interview and talked about the investigation where it was an individual that was arrested for drug trafficking, but not only drug trafficking,

money laundering, smuggling narcotics into the United States. and eventually the individual escaped from prison. And we recaptured that individual. So long story short, the movie comes out about this guy. I'm contacted. Hey, would you talk to us about it? I do a couple talk radio shows. And on one of them, the host said,

have you ever thought about a podcast or telling stories? And I'm like, no, I never have. But I love telling stories and I love talking about work. I love talking about work that I've done. I love hearing about work that other officers and agents and individuals do. So I thought, man, that's a good idea. I'm going to look into it. So long rambling story, that's kind of how I got into my podcast.

And I'm fortunate enough to know so many people from my 30 years of law enforcement that have very compelling stories. I have very interesting stories that they're sharing. And the show is starting to kind of gain traction a little bit. and people seem to find it interesting. And you can find it on Apple Podcasts, Spotify. We have a YouTube channel. Again, right to remain silent, true crime podcast.

And we have the links in the episode description of this one. And also to be noted, you do all the work yourself too. I do. I do. Yeah, it's a labor of love. And I'm learning. And as you can tell with the white beard, I'm a little bit older. and I'm technologically challenged.

So it's been a great experience. I do have some folks consulting and helping me out, you know, advising-wise and that type of thing. But all in all, it's quite a monumental task, but I really enjoy it. And now you got me as a part-time consultant. Yeah, absolutely. I could ask for anybody better. And thank you very much for the gifts. This is from your podcast?

Yeah, it is. It is. It's got our podcast logo on there, a little, little, like. you know, thermal mud. I don't know if you're a coffee guy or tea or water or whatever. Is this you right there? Yeah, that's me. This is so cute.

Right, right. Yeah, I don't know if you saw like our little display wall, but I built this thing where like every time someone gives me like a cool thing, I could put it out there so everyone gets to see like the other people that have been there before. Yeah. And that's why we do like the Polaroids here. Yeah, good deal. So it's cool to, you know, make every guest feel a part of the show.

Right. Because without the guests, there would be no show. You're right. Which is really cool. Now, I know you've been listening for a year now. Have you ever heard me talk about, like, magic mind at all? Yes. I don't know if you want to try it.

There's one there, but before every episode, I take one. So I'm going to take this one. If you like macha, there is one there for you. They're best served cold. But the other thing I'm going to try today is they sent me gummies as well. They have a new product. Really? These ones don't have caffeine in it.

That's how it differs from the shot. but for adults, you would take three of them. You could take less if you want, but they're really good. I tried them. Do you want to try a gummy? I'll give it a shot. You'll give it a shy. I'm going to grab my gummies, and then I'll bring you these and let me know what you think.

Bring you these gummers. Now, as a former law enforcement officer, there's nothing in here that... No, no, no, no marijuana. I got the Mike Tyson one separate. Not that there's anything wrong with that. That's just not my thing. No, no, no, no. I would never do that.

Absolutely. All right. Hey, I appreciate it. Yeah. You could just leave them there after. Okay. They first sent me these the other day and I tried them. They're great.

I mean, it promotes focus, calm mind, less stress. We'll see how you feel at the end of the episode, too. All right. We'll give it a shot. What do you think about the flavor? Pretty good. Pretty good. I like them a lot.

I think they're good. Yeah. It was like, keep chewing here. Pretty tasty. And for the people listening, you guys could get these gummies for 40% off. Go to magicmind.com slash ENGGM and use code EIN40. We'll have that link in the episode. It'll also pop up if you're watching on video.

Definitely check out the Magic Mind gummies. I'm the type of person that loves gummy vitamins. I'm like a child. I actually took some on my little pill carrier on my trip here. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so this reminds me of like a vitamin, but I take so many vitamins now because I keep getting sick that I can't have every single one of them be a vitamin or a shoe one. But I like my elderberry gummies and stuff, and now I'm going to be incorporating these into it.

That's a good plan. So yeah, guys, check out that promo code and that link and grab yourself some gummies. So, Jim, where did you grow up? Where are you from? I'm from Missouri, outside of St. Louis, Missouri. I grew up, I was born there, grew up there. You know, when people say, oh, hey, you're from St. Louis. They're thinking inner cityhood, you know, crime, crime-rottled neighborhoods and area now.

Very, very rural setting is where I, you know, grew up my entire childhood into young adulthood. And it was actually a town or an area called Pacific, Missouri, which is maybe 45, 50 miles outside of St. Louis. So I grew up there. What did your parents do for work? My father originally was a school teacher and a high school football coach and wrestling coach. My mom, I have a sister. My mom was a stay-at-home mother as my sister and I grew up.

And at some point, probably about junior high, my dad transitioned into sales. So he became a salesman like, are you familiar with Snap-on Tools or Mac Tools, those big trucks that drive around with, you know, thousands of tools in there that you sell to mechanics. My father switched careers into that and did that for the rest of his career. And then as there was no need for her mom to be a stay-at-home mom, she got out into the work world and became a real estate agent. My dad was a teacher. Really?

Yeah, Spanish Harlem. He did middle school and then high school and then became an administrator. Really? And then switched and became a caterer after he retired from teaching. I'll be darned. That's kind of a lot of similarities right there. Yeah, small world. Did you play football because he was a coach?

You know what? I did actually. He actually played, he was a football player in college. He played at the University of Missouri back in the 1960s. And they were a very good team back then. I went to the Sugar Bowl and played several times. And then growing up as a kid, having a dad like that, that played football himself and coached it, he was pretty influential on me. And I played as well, played it in high school, and was fortunate to get a scholarship to play in college as well.

And your sister, was she into sports? She was. She was also. She was into volleyball. She was into basketball. She got a scholarship, a college scholarship for basketball as well. Were you guys close growing up? Yeah.

Yep, sure were. What were your career aspirations as a kid? You know, I think just like every other kid, I wasn't really sure in the very beginning. But what I did know is that I liked cool TV shows and movies that had cool stories about police. And again, I'm much older than you. So the references here of the TV shows that I'm going to mention, you might not have any idea. But as a kid, I grew up watching, there was an original TV show in the 70s called SWAT, which was about SWAT operators, which I'm like, man, as a kid, you're like, you're seeing these guys drive around and cool trucks and, you know, assault rifles and stuff like that. And then there were shows like CoJack. I don't know if you ever heard of that.

He was a police officer. I think it was in New York City. Another TV show called McLeod. And then, of course, your classic Starsky and Hutch. I've heard of that. Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yeah, I told you, a very old 1970s police shows. And it kind of drew my attention.

And I found that stuff interesting. And as I was growing, you know, my father, he was not in law enforcement. And I had no family members in law enforcement, no friends. But as I got older, I'm like, man, I think I might want to try, you know, consider this. But I think an incident in my life and my family's life that kind of pushed me in that direction was I had some very close, I'm not going to get into specifics about who the family members were, but a number of very close family members that invested financially with a financial advisor and invested their life savings. And they ultimately were taken advantage of and they lost their life savings. And as a young, an older child or a younger adult in that time frame, I saw how it adversely affected them. And it hurt me to see them be hurt.

And I thought, well, man, that's not right. And that kind of pushed me in the direction of trying to maybe do the right thing, maybe get into law enforcement so maybe I could perhaps prevent something like that from happening to some of the right thing. prevent something like that from happening to somebody else's family members. So that's kind of what I think, thinking back over my life, kind of pushed me in that direction. Would you consider yourself at that time kind of confident, outgoing, not really shy? I was confident, but I was super shy. I painfully shy.

You know, my father would often say that. You know, he was quite the opposite, very outgoing and loud and, and not shy. And initially that's how I started out as a young adult and even actually getting into law enforcement, but I quickly learned that needed to change. It's interesting that you wanted to help those family members, but you still had that shy aspect to you.

Yeah. Like you had the thought but not the action behind it. Yeah, exactly. So to walk us through going into law enforcement, one was like that final decision to join. And what was your reaction with your family? family when you made that decision? Sure.

I think I thought, well, if I'm, you know, if I'm going to go to college and I'm thinking about law enforcement, let's give it a try. In the beginning of college, just take a couple like criminal justice classes. So I did that. And I'm like, man, these are interesting. You know, it doesn't involve math or science. So I can do that, right? I wasn't the sharpest tool in the, or sharpest knife in the drawer.

I wasn't very good at math and science. and taking these criminal justice classes. I'm like, this stuff is interesting. So I decided to major in it. So I major in criminal justice. And at the conclusion of your college time, you can take it, you can do an internship with a law enforcement agency. And I was fortunate to be able to do it with the U.S. Marshal's Service as a student intern. And I did that.

And I'm like, wow, this is a fascinating aspect. of law enforcement, federal law enforcement. I'm thinking I might want to get into this at some point in my career. So that really kind of launched it. I get, you know, I graduate from college. I get my degree. And I initially get out and get on with a local sheriff's department in southern Missouri. So I start out down there, you know, getting a foundation for law enforcement, getting my career

started. And all the while, I'm at the sheriff's department. I'm like, I like this. I'm learning, but there's something more that I want to do. So I kept my mind open and my goals or my sites set on pursuing federal law enforcement. So I transitioned from the sheriff's department. And there was a state-run drug task force in that region of Missouri. And again, I think I've been lucky in my life And things have worked out career-wise. I was able to go from the sheriff's department to this drug task force. And that's where I learned how to do investigations, actually conducting investigations, not just arresting somebody for, you know, a DUI or processing somebody in the jail.

You actually did investigations. You worked towards conducting search warrants and interviewing people and very interesting stuff and doing some traveling. And while I worked for that task force, I also met with, interacted with, and kind of became friends with federal agents, FBI agents, U.S. Marshals, DEA agents. So I got a very vast exposure to the federal law enforcement world and kind of began to move in that direction then. These people kind of helped me, you know, transition to federal law enforcement. Hey, we have some openings here. You might want to apply for them.

Here's what you need to do. And ultimately, that's what happened. I, you know, I applied for a couple of federal jobs, and it worked out to where I got hired as a special agent with the United States Customs Service. And that was, you know, I went from the sheriff's department to a state investigator and then transition to being a federal agent. All right, listen up. Here's the deal. The internet isn't as private as you think.

ISPs track your data. Hackers lurk on public Wi-Fi and region locks block the content you actually want to see. That's why I use NordVPN. With a single click, I can encrypt my internet connection. Bypass restrictions and stay completely anonymous online. And don't even get me started on speed. NordVPN is the fastest VPN out there, meaning zero lag.

zero buffering and no ISP throttling. Oh, and a little hack for you, I've saved hundreds of dollars on flights and hotel bookings by switching my virtual location. One account protects up to 10 devices so my phone, laptop, and tablet are all covered. Bottom line, if you value your privacy and want unrestricted internet, you need NordVPN. So if you're online, which you obviously are, you need NordVPN. To get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, Go to NordVPN.com slash Ian Bick, where you'll get four extra months free on a two-year plan.

And don't worry, there's no risk with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee. The link is in the podcast episode description. Now let's get back into today's episode. Back then, was it less common for people to go right out of college into the federal law enforcement agencies? It was. It was less common because that world, they wanted you to have some experience. They wanted you to have a background in law enforcement. You know, of course there were exceptions back then, just like there are now.

If you're an attorney, if you're a CPA, if you're fluent in some sort of language, Arabic, or something along those lines, that kind of streamlines your, if you're a pilot, something like that. That will help streamline you to go from college directly into the federal system. That helps. But if you're just an average Joe like myself that was. trying to get in. They typically back in those times, wanted you to get your feet on the ground, build a foundation, and learn a little bit about law enforcement and get some experience before you get into the federal system.

When you first got onto the state level in policing, was it like the TV shows that you watched growing up as a kid or was it very different? It wasn't as cool as I thought it was going to be. It wasn't always fast cars and fancy restaurants and cool clothes. But there were aspects of that to it. But by that point, you know, it really, that wasn't the main reason for it. But to answer that question, no, it wasn't like when I'm a kid on the couch in the TV room with dad watching Starsky and Hutch. It wasn't, you know, sliding across the hood and chasing bad guys and stuff like that as I got into law enforcement.

Now, what about the differences between state and federal when you made that switch? You know, there are substantial differences. And I'll say this, is one better than the other? No, not necessarily. I've got friends that were state troopers from the beginning of their career to the end of their career. I have friends that were sheriff's deputies from the beginning of their career to the end of their career. And I have friends that were federal agents their whole career. I think it varies from person to person.

What's inside you and what do you want to do? But for me, I wanted to work on larger scale, on the larger scale spectrum of working cases, something more than just in my local jurisdiction. Maybe something that goes from my jurisdiction to the southern border, and then from the southern border into Central America, and then back into the California region. With the federal law enforcement, you were able to, I think, experience more. I don't think do more is the right word or the white phrase or right face.

It was just an opportunity to be able to experience more. For me personally, I felt. What was your first post for Customs? Sure. It was, well, originally when they hired me, they said, all right, you're going to go to, you're going to go to Calexico, the southern border. And I'm like, man, I'm a hillbilly from Missouri. I don't speak Spanish. That doesn't sound appealing to me.

But I wanted to be a federal agent. So I'm like, you know what, I'm going to give it a try. So I sign on and go to the academy. And while I'm in the academy, they're like, all right, change of plans. You're not going to go to the southern border. You're going to go to Chicago, Illinois. And I'm like, sweet, that's not on the border. I can do that.

But little did I know. I mean, I had never actually been to Chicago, you know. But living in the St. Louis region, maybe five hours away from Chicago, I didn't realize the vast, the size of Chicago and just the overwhelming aspect of how large it is. I mean, just for example, traffic, almost 24-7, you know, people everywhere, millions and millions of people in that area. It was a bit overwhelming for a small town guy like myself to go up there and do that. But would I do it again? Absolutely. I thought, man, this is pretty cool.

I didn't want to live there my whole life, but it was fun to go up there and see a different aspect of the country. different aspect of law enforcement. And I will say that, you know, that was in 2001. And I still have friends today from that time frame when I worked out there. So that was the first assignment. What was the main objective of customs back then? Sure. Because it's a lot different now what their objectives are. It is. So back then, the United States Treasury Department had what they called the United States Custom Service. And the U.S. Customs Service, a little history lesson, originated in 1789, originally to impose and collect taxes. Not a very popular, you know, thing back then or even now today. But that's the origin, how the U.S. Customs Service started. And primarily what their role in responsibility and law enforcement

it was, is anything that crosses the United States border, anything that comes in to the U.S. from outside, from abroad, or certain items that go outside of the U.S. crossing the border, exiting the country. So that could be anything. That's people. That's products. That's technology. And within those categories, it's narcotics.

it's drug money, it's technology that, you know, certain countries, China or, you know, various other countries, technology that they might be trying to steal. So it was a very powerful, very small agency, but very powerful and very interesting. And a lot of people, when I first got hired, they're like, you ask customs, are you going to be wearing a uniform at the airport going through my suitcase? That was the thought process. That's what people thought it was. Yes, there was an aspect of that. There were customs inspectors at the airport doing that. But we were a separate division of special agents that would investigate things, you know, entering and exiting the country.

Yeah, there was no TSA back then. No, not at all. Not at all. So, you know, I got to say, you know, I thought it was a curse in a way, but it was actually a blessing that I applied, was hired, and began working. for a specific agency, the U.S. Custom Service. And one prominent, one significant act that occurred in U.S. history were the 9-11 terror attacks. And that greatly changed, as we know, so much in this country, specifically law enforcement, in my experience. That totally changed federal law enforcement for a significant amount of time.

And they actually took, after 2001 when the attacks occurred, fast forward to 2003. In that time frame, the government's trying to figure out, what do we need to do here? Like, we're a target. We're a target of worldwide terrorism. And we need to do something to address this. So it was President Bush at the time. was instrumental in creating the Department of Homeland Security. So in 2003, it started, and they took agents from various federal agencies that existed,

and then moved them to the newly created Department of Homeland Security. And the U.S. Custom Service was one of those agencies that was moved from the U.S. Treasury Department to the United States Department of Homeland Security and essentially dissolved. So the U.S. Custom Service from the Treasury Department no longer exists. It was moved, transitioned over to Homeland Security. And is that when it became known as ICE at that point? Yes, yeah.

In my experience, in working with the agency, technically I was working for ICE the entire time. And there were various name changes as the agency tried to find its identity. They brought, in addition to bringing the U.S. Customs Service, and they brought the INS, Immigration and Naturalization Service, and brought those agents over and put them in it. And they put INS agents and customs agents together and said,

okay, customs agents, you have the authority for everything that crosses the border, drugs, money, weapons, people. INS agents, you have the authority to pursue immigration-related investigations. Let's put you guys together. And that was the creation of ICE. Well, were some of the investigations you would do as an agent for customs before you transition to Homeland Security? Sure.

A majority of my career in customs, which was kind of short-lived because I started just at the beginning in 2001 and it transitioned in 2003. So in that time frame, the cases that I specifically worked in Chicago, I was assigned to, they would call it the anti-smuggling or the narcotics smuggling group where I work drug cases the whole time. And we're not talking just like dying bags of weed or something insignificant like that. We're talking like drug trafficking organization level investigations of narcotics coming from. Bogota, Columbia, to the United States, hitting a certain entry point in the U.S., and then being dispersed throughout the country. So I work primarily drug cases.

And just a quick example of one of those cases was a heroin smuggling investigation. And it just started out with a simple traffic stop. And this is one of the aspects I liked about federal investigations. Like I was assigned to Chicago living and working there, but I got a case that originated in the state of Mississippi, an individual that was from Chicago driving down to New Orleans to pick up heroin from a carnival cruise ship employee who was involved in smuggling narcotics into the U.S. This individual from Chicago drove down to New Orleans, met the employee, got their heroin. was en route back up to Chicago, was stopped in Mississippi on a traffic stop, and decided to cooperate. That of an individual then comes, we bring him back to Chicago, interview him, he becomes a cooperator. And ultimately, we, it's called going up on Title III intercepts, like wiretapping.

So we very quickly identified a drug trafficking organization based in Chicago, but it was all throughout the country. It was in L.A. There was a faction in L.A., a faction in New York, a faction in Miami, a faction down in New Orleans, but it was based in Chicago, and the heroin was coming out of Columbia from a very prominent businessman and wealthy family down there. a series of casinos down through Bogota, Columbia, they would also use those casinos to launder their drug proceeds through there. So those are the type of cases that I was like, I don't think I'm an awesome agent investigator. I just think I was lucky. I was fortunate to be exposed to these type of cases and be able to work them. Because, you know, there's such a division. There's such a, uh, within the, country about drugs, right? Should we legalize them? Should we keep them illegal? Should we legalize

certain ones, but not others? My opinion, at that time and now, is certainly drugs like heroin are so damaging. Like if you just look at the effects and how it affects people physically, mentally, emotionally, and their life, it adversely or negatively affects their family, their friends, themselves, their employment, every aspect of life. So my thought is this, we need to keep pressure on those type of drugs that are coming into this country. And again, just going back, I was fortunate to be able to be assigned to those types of groups to work that type of case. Why do you think Chicago has always been back then and now such a big hub for drugs? It's because there's such a, it's centrally located within the United States, and there's such a large population there.

You can bring the narcotics into the country, into the, we call it the interior. You know, in my career, I worked interior offices, not border offices, not northern border, not southern border. It was the interior. Well, those narcotics need to hit the country at some location at some point, and then they need to go somewhere. So Chicago is essentially a centrally located location with major interstates that go through it. So that's the primary reason that it is such a magnet for narcotics. And then with those drugs comes the drug money. You know, we have to address the drug trafficking organizations.

once the drugs come here, they come to Chicago, they're distributed to various locations throughout the country. Well, those narcotics generate income, and that income is usually in the form of cash. And that cash has to go somewhere, and it typically goes back to the origin of the narcotics. So we're fighting these drugs coming into the country, Chicago. We're also looking at the money going out of the country. But again, I think you found out I give some long rambling answers, but circling back just specifically to what you said, it's just that central location, that large population that causes Chicago to be such a hot spot.

Hey, I'll take that over a one-word answer every day, David. All right, absolutely. How would the higher-ups at Customs pick out, like say a new recruit like yourself, how would they pick out who's going to be an agent who would have been, say, stuck at the airport before there was TSA and all of it? that. Sure. Well, in that scenario there, you could apply to be an agent, like a special agent, federal agent, or you could apply to be an inspector. Now is, so it would be like U.S. Customs, up here, that would be the agency, and there's different divisions within that. You would have the special agents. You would have the inspections. You would have administration. You would have the

financial division. So you could specifically apply. apply for those positions. But, you know, going to, just based off what, from my experience, as an agent in the larger metropolitan areas in huge cities like Chicago, I think it's, you know, I'd have to Google it, but I think Chicago is like the second or third or fourth largest city in the nation. Well, with that, you have airports, right? With these large cities, you have these airports and you have people. and goods and products coming and going.

So we, just as in most large cities, we would have offices at the airport as special agents that would kind of work in conjunction or coordination with the inspectors. And I think you can see it on, there's a show now called To Catch a Smuggler. I think it's National Geographic. And it shows people coming into the airport

and they're going through TSA. They're going through the inspection aspect of it. And if something is discovered at that point, they will then turn it over to the agents to begin investigating it. So if you're an agent, you could be assigned to go to the airport or you could be assigned to work out of the main office. Now, once they formed Homeland Security, do you just get a call one day and say you're one of the people that are switching over? Yeah, that's how it happened. It was like kind of shocking. You know, there was all this confusion like, okay, they're creating the Department of Homeland Security.

Security. Well, what does that mean? What are they going to do? And how is it going to work? It was a massive learning experience. It was a huge, cumbersome project to do this. But yeah, that's how it worked essentially. All right. You guys, your agency, all right, you guys, your agency starting on this date in 2003, we're moving you over and you're starting. you will now be a Homeland Security employee. And that's how it worked. So I was essentially, I got a cool little plaque, you know, that says you are an original member of the Department of Homeland Security founded on this date in 2003. So it's kind of neat.

It's kind of historical that I was, again, fortunate to be able to be in that position. But yeah, that's how it happened. Hey, all right, Monday, your Homeland Security. Did your security clearance change or was at the same level? Did any special perks come with that? It stayed the same. I think at that point, it may have changed a little bit, not drastically. I think depending on what you did as an agent, what group you were assigned to, you had different security levels. I think at the time in Chicago, mine was a secret security level. But as I reflect back here, that's a great question. I think once we became Homeland Security, my security level went up to a top secret. And then in addition to that, it went another level up called a TSI security clearance.

Because at that point in my career, I was assigned to work with the FBI in something called the Joint Terrorism Task Force, JTTF. If you hear that on TV shows or the news or whatever. And that's where you're dealing with a lot of highly secure intelligence about individuals, potential terrorist, potential terrorist activity. So you would have to have a certain security level to even be able to access that information. You had to use a certain phone to communicate on. You couldn't use a regular phone. You had to sit in a locked, secured room to review reports. So, yeah, I think, thinking back, I think the security level did change.

It increased. Yeah, we had a couple of guests that have been on the JTTF Task Force. Tom, who I was telling you about, was on the task force, probably around the same time, maybe, as you were. I think so. When we were talking offline a little bit beforehand, I was trying to think of the time frame. Yeah. So I think you're probably right. Because he retired, I think, a couple of years ago to start his new pepper spray business,

where you could literally spray it at someone and in the same room and it won't affect the person spraying. Yeah, that's a great product because I've been on the wrong end of receiving some residual pepper spray in my career. So that's a good product. I would hate to be pepper sprayed.

I told them I would sample it, though. Like, I feel like it would be funny as a skit in the prison cell. That would be a great idea. And I guess, like, you can wash it without it irritating you more or you could get something. Like, it's a really cool design. You got to check it out when you talk.

I think I will because, you know, right now after retiring from Homeland Security, I'm like, you know, some people can retire and just stay retired and sip coffee and watch TV. I'm like, man, I got to do something. So I actually got on and I'm an instructor at a police academy in Missouri. And I teach criminal justice at a college as well. But one of the aspects I'm involved with is the pepper spray training. So I am going to look into that because, you know, it's funny. We film the recruits when they get pepper sprayed because as part of the process of going through the training, you have to be on the receiving end of it so you know what it's like.

And after they do that, they're flushing their face with cold water and everything. You know, even cold milk helps wash that out. So that sounds like it would be a great product. What was your first assignment on Homeland Security? Oh, gosh. I'm going to say, now I can't actually remember my very first case, but my first assignment was I was placed in the, it's called the public safety group, where you handle, I think at the time we had the public safety group and we had the national security group. And the public safety group covered things like narcotics, distribution, money laundering, undercover investigations, gang investigations. And national security covered immigration-related cases, terrorism-related cases, international and domestic terrorism. So my first assignment was public safety.

And moving from transitioning from the Chicago office down to St. Louis, I still stayed. with narcotics cases for a majority of my career. Oh, they still did narcotics even with Homeland Security? Yeah, they do. Yeah, yeah. So it, you know, a kind of a misnomer out there is that, you know, DEA is the only group that or only agency that works narcotics investigations or FBI. But Homeland Security works some very significant narcotics trafficking cases.

And I think that's a good thing because you can work collectively with your federal partners. You can work with DEA and you can have that much more punch, right? You have that many more tools, you have more funding. You have more manpower, more resources available when you work collectively like that. But yeah, Homeland Security works narcotics cases from the start until now. But, you know, talking about, we're talking about the beginning of Homeland Security and kind of the growing pains. You know, there are agencies that didn't want Homeland Security working narcotics investigations for whatever reasons. But as time passed and the agency grew, they're very instrumental in conducting worldwide drug investigations.

So you had clearance, I guess, to go out of the country under Homeland Security for investigations? So that would be different from, say, the FBI doesn't have clearance, do they? They do. Most federal agencies have what you call like a legat or an attache where you work in foreign countries. And you have agents assigned there at the embassy. So for instance, let's say the embassy in Mexico City, you might have one or two FBI agents, one or two DEA agents, one or two DEA agents, one or two Homeland Security agents, one or two ATF agents. So they are assigned and can work those type of investigations.

So is the CIA, like the odd one out? Because every law enforcement officer I've talked to, they never bring that up working together. You know, I mean, I think due to the nature of the agency, they're so secretive. Like, quite honestly, a lot of federal agencies don't know exactly, you know, everything they do. they are instrumental. They are involved in narcotics investigations. They are involved in, you know, all kinds of anything that affects the U.S., essentially. We had, again, in my time I was assigned with the JTTF working there,

there were CIA employees embedded with the JTTF as well, soliciting various information consisting of trying to find out information about certain individuals. As a Homeland Security agent, I might have the CIA operative come up to me and say, hey, we have an open investigation on this individual. We understand he has some immigration history or he has some international travel history. Do you have access to that and can you share that? you know, I think there's this, you know, a mystique about the CIA because they don't share their information as much as other federal law enforcement agencies or departments do. Once you kind of got settled in Homeland Security, how was your at-home life, your personal life?

Did you have a family? I did. I had a family. It was very stressful. It's disruptive to your personal life, to your family life, to your family life. to, you know, your friends. And eventually, that takes a toll on not only you, but your counterpart, your spouse. And, you know, I know, for me personally, I'm divorced. Was it all the fault of my employer or my job? No. But it significantly contributes to that.

So it, you know, when you get a car, call at two in the morning and you have to leave, that can be stressful. If you get a call or an assignment and you have to be in El Paso, Texas for 45 days, and you're going to miss your kids soccer games, you're going to miss their first grade graduation, you're going to miss their, you know, junior high dance, these are all very stressful things that can be disruptive to your family life. But, you know, law enforcement isn't the only career like that. There's, as we know, there's, you know, so many careers that have hectic and rough schedules. But for me personally, you know, I had some, some adversity in my personal life. So what's the mindset to make it through

those situations you're describing? Like, to give you that motivation to get out of bed and miss a birthday or a significant event in your family for your job? Is it just because you love your job so much? or is it the love of the country or maybe it's money? What is it for you? I mean, that's a great question. I think for me personally, it was a little bit, it's a little bit of everything. Just doing the right thing. And this is a bummer that I got to miss my kids, whatever events,

or I got to miss Christmas Eve or Christmas dinner with the whole family. That's a bummer. But you have to look at it like, hey, this is my job. this is something that needs to be done and I was hired to do it and I'm paid to do it and in the end hopefully it will be effective or it will be helpful to protecting the country to getting heroin off the street so it isn't in my kids junior high or high school or your kids junior high or high school or you know oftentimes we would also work They're called cybercrime investigations, essentially child pornography investigations.

Those are very distasteful cases. The evidence in these cases is very devastating and the images that you see. But in the end, you have to, you realize that, man, this needs to be done. And I've got to do it. So it kind of gives you also a little bit of satisfaction that you're trying to make the world, you know, it sounds so cliche, trying to make the world a little bit better place when you're gone. You know, that's kind of the incentive that I had. And, you know, quite honestly, you know, money is good. The salary of federal agencies is much better.

typically than like being a sheriff's deputy. But is that the main priority? Absolutely not. It's trying to do the right thing and make it a little bit better for me, you and our kids. Did you have to move around a lot or were you based out of one location?

I was fortunate where I didn't have to move a lot. I went to my initial assignment. I lived in another city in Missouri, but when I was hired, I had to go down to Georgia. where the federal academy is. So I moved down to Georgia for six months and lived on this campus or this facility

where you live in a dorm for six months and you go through the academy. And then at the completion of that, I then moved to Chicago. And then I worked in Chicago, you know, five years or so, somewhere in that ballpark. And then I moved one more time to my final,

office assignment. But there is, you sign what's called a mobility agreement that says, hey, I will move at the need of the agency. If the agency needs a thousand agents at the southern border and I'm picked, I'll go. If the agency needs 500 agents at the northern border to fill vacancies, I'll go. So you're technically on the hook to have to do that. Then some people luck out and they don't have to move frequently. and others do move frequently.

And it also kind of depends on what you want to do in your career. I had no aspirations. I didn't want to be a supervisor. That just wasn't my thing. But there are individuals that want to be a supervisor. Well, you have to move around to do that. You have to go to Washington, D.C. for X amount of time and do an assignment there. And then you have to go to this office, you know, whatever office is in need of a

supervisor. You go up the chain of the management aspect of it and there's more opportunity or more chance for an individual to have to transfer and move. Why didn't you want to get into a leadership position? I wanted to be, for me personally, I just wanted to be good at my job. I wanted to be able to conduct an investigation and be very efficient at it and be very successful. And I wanted to be, I wanted to work with other like-minded agents to do that as well. And I just, you know, it's just when you become a manager, you have to deal with so many issues. You know, you have to deal with so many problems, not only work related, but personal related. You know, say you have an employee that's going through a divorce or you have an employee that's going through a death in a family.

you have to deal with so many different things when you're managing large groups of people, it can be overwhelming. And it just wasn't a goal for me. I didn't want to do that. But there certainly needs to be supervisors out there, right? And there's some great ones in every aspect of every profession out there. But I just didn't want to do it. What's one of the investigations that you are a part of that will never leave your mind even to this day? There was, it was a cyber crimes, a child exploitation case.

That, it was, it was a rough case. It was a family member that sexually assaulted another family member. And not only did they do that, but they also videoted it. and photographed it and then shared that online. So there were images of that out there. And seeing a family member do some pretty despicable things to another family member, a juvenile, taking advantage of that young child and the things that were done will never leave my mind.

And we actually conducted an investigation of that person and then brought them in for questioning and we sat in a little room, maybe a little bit smaller than this room here. It was myself and another agent and the individual. And we interviewed that person and we spoke to them about the allegations of what we believed happened. And he admitted it. And not only did he admit it, but he went into great detail about what he did and why he did that. And that was so heartbreaking and sickening to hear an adult tell what they did to a juvenile that can't defend themselves. And to hear that individual trying to justify why they did that was so heartbreaking and so difficult to hear. And it's something that I will never be able to get out of my mind.

Those are very worthy cases to work because those young victims cannot protect themselves. So those are very, although they're super unpleasant, they're very worthwhile to successfully investigate and prosecute individuals like that. I don't want to get into the details about it was this family member doing it to this family member, but it was some pretty sickening, sickening things that were done. and that just won't leave my mind. How do you stay professional in those moments? It's tough. It's tough. You have to maintain your composure.

You have to maintain your professionalism. You know, in that scenario, if we were sitting there talking to the individual and they told us this and we snapped on them or really relayed how we felt, that's going to shut it down. They're going to stop. They're going to stop talking. They're going to stop giving you the evidence you need. for the prosecution. They're going to no longer cooperate with you. So you have to maintain your composure and professionalism from beginning to end to hear that.

And it's just something that you learn to do. Was I born to do that? No. But when you're exposed to those scenarios and those situations, you learn that that's what you have to do and how you have to react in order to successfully obtain the information that you need. Yeah, I think sometimes people forget about the professional aspect of the job. For example, I had a clinical psychologist on who was talking about child molesters and sex

offenders in prison giving her professional take on it. And the audience responded negatively to that because they felt like that she was defending them, but those weren't her personal opinions. That was her professional opinion, what she does in her job and her line of work. Like you're not just sitting here saying kill all pedophiles because you have a professional, you know, standard to uphold. Right. That doesn't mean you don't have a viewpoint in your mind like that or anyone that's sitting in that chair. Right.

And I think people forget that sometimes. Yeah, that's a great point. Yep, absolutely. Now, in those types of cases, do most of them just plead out? Because I can't imagine they're even winnable at trial. Right. A majority of them do because by the time you get to that point, it's pretty clear cut. you have some substantial evidence that's unrefutable.

Like there's no defense to it oftentimes. So in a majority of those type of cases, they're just going to plead for that reason. In addition to they want to avoid embarrassment. They want to try to avoid embarrassment because when it comes to light that this individual conducted these knowingly and willingly, did these heinous crimes, that's devastating.

And that can be overwhelming to the individual. So they want to avoid the embarrassment. And oftentimes it's been my experience. I've seen it occur in other individuals cases. Like I've had defendants that have committed suicide because of the things that they did. I have co-workers that had defendants in their cases, specifically in these types of cases, that it came to light what they did and they saw no other recourse and they ended their life because of that. Very sad. These cases are very sad on all aspects, the actual crimes that are committed, the things that are done.

And sometimes the outcome like that. me personally, you know, I have very strong feelings about that type of offender, but I certainly don't wish death upon anybody because of the crimes that they committed, right? There aren't many guarantees in life. Your energy won't always show up. Your genes won't always fit, but I promise you this. If Just Thrive probiotic doesn't work for you, I'll refund every penny. Hi, I'm Tina.

Just Thrive co-founder. And while most probiotics die in your stomach acid, Just Thrive is clean. clinically proven to arrive 100% alive for gut health results you could feel. Better digestion, less bloat, healthy immunity, improve sleep and clear skin. Take the Just Thrive probiotic challenge today. Visit justthrivehealth.com slash podcast. Take control today with Just Thrive. You hate to hear that type of ending to an individual's life.

Yeah, when I was in prison, federal prison, I was shocked by the sheer amount of individuals that were there that took out like a five-year plea deal for being caught with child pornography on their computer. There's so many individuals, people that were my age or older or, you know, just, it's crazy. And a lot of them don't even take accountability.

They just say they randomly stumbled upon it. That, you hit the nail on the head right there. That was a very common defense to that. Is, hey, I look at pornography, you know, it just popped up on my computer. You know, that's a defense that a lot of them will utilize, but it just doesn't work because you have to take substantial steps to download and save and forward and share that stuff. So they're probably not telling the whole story.

Yeah, it may have just shown up on their computer, but they actively looked into it, pursued it, downloaded, it, saved, it, shared it. And that constitutes the crime aspect. Correct. How did you get into undercover work for Homeland Security? You know, that's a great question. I did that probably a majority of my career there. And I just, I found it when I was a state investigator, I had the opportunity to do that on the state level.

And I thought, this is interesting stuff. And when I became a federal agent, I thought if the opportunity were to ever present, in itself, I'd probably pursue it because you'll find that different opportunities pop up like, hey, we need somebody to be a firearms instructor to teach everybody how to shoot, or we need somebody to be a defensive tactics instructor to teach everybody how to fight in handcuff, or we need somebody to be a computer forensics agent that works specialty cases on electronic equipment. Well, they also have undercover opportunities. And I knew a lot from my state time of undercover guys and talked to them and they seemed

to enjoy it. And I enjoyed it in my brief time with the state. And I thought when an opportunity comes up, I'm going to do it. And an opportunity did come up. And you apply for it. And you submit an application. And you rationalize or you explain why you think you would qualify for it. and you explain your training and experience that you have,

and it's evaluated, and you go through an interview process, and there's a substantial amount of steps to it, and then you either make it or you don't. And then they send you to very specialized training. I think it was two or three weeks of straight training, 24-7, that you go through this from beginning to end, And at the conclusion of that training, they say yes or no, you either pass or you fail and you make it or you don't. And I go through it and I guess I got lucky and I made it.

And I got out and different offices have different needs for undercover cases. Hey, we need a white hillbilly looking guy to go do this or we need a Hispanic female to go do that. So they would draw from the pool of undercover operatives that were available. So that's essentially how I got into it. Can you share with us one of the undercover operations you were a part of? Yeah, I could, I'll get a brief story. There, believe it or not, in the St. Louis region, and in the East St. Louis region, there's a high number of criminal street gangs.

And they were, there were just, there's all kinds, there's Hispanic gangs, there's Serenio 13s, there's MS-13, there's Latin kings, there's skinheads, there's KKK, there's KKK, there's KKK, there's outlaws, there's Mongols. And I had the opportunity to work a, gang case where this gang was believed intelligence had been received that this gang was participating in a certain crime. And they wanted to try to figure out, was this true? If so, what's going on? Can we gather any evidence on that? So, collectively, we decided, all right, we're going to sign you to this and see what you can do. What can you find out?

and I just randomly started socializing in certain circles where these individuals would socialize and hang out. And this went on over a several year time period and ultimately became friends or acquaintances with a handful of these individuals. And at some point they're like, hey, do you want to join up with us? And we collectively talked about it at work with management and coworkers.

And, you know, hey, what are the pros and what are the cons? Would this be beneficial if we pursued this? Or would it not be beneficial if we pursued this? So collectively, we decided, let's give it a try. So I go back to the individual. I'm saying, yeah, that'd be cool. I'll give it a shot. So they actually gave me a paper application, almost like you go to McDonald's in the old days

and get a paper application. You filled out your name, your address, your date of birth, your, you know, some references, your social security number, all this stuff. So I'm like, oh, man, okay, well, I'll fill this. I filled it out. And they wanted a picture as well. And so you had to attach a picture. And they wanted a fee like cash to run a background check on you.

I'm like, man, this is serious, right? Like, what kind of background check are we running here? So we did it. And when you're at this level of working these types of cases, you do certain things. You do something called backstopping where you create an alternate identity and that type of thing. Without getting into great detail about that, one of those had been created for me. So I passed, you know, I passed the initial application and began running with these individuals. riding with them, associating with them,

and gathering intelligence and information about the crimes that they committed in the area. And, you know, it's kind of a vague story, and I don't want to get into great detail about it, but I was able to, you know, I don't like the word infiltrate. I was able to gain membership to this organization. But was it easy?

Nope. It took a substantial amount of time and it was very difficult and very tedious. But I went through the steps and made it in. So are you undercover the full two years or do you go in segments? In certain under, different undercover cases have different stories or different backstories to them. So it wasn't straight two years. It was on and off for two years, pretty consistent a couple times a week, usually every week, not every single week. Not every single week.

You might miss a week or two or three or four, but for a majority, a lot of time within that two-year time, like I would travel out of town on several overnight events or activities with these individuals. But I would also work as a case agent as well, working other, you know, drug investigations or cybercrime investigations or gang or money laundering cases. So if that answers your question. Is it hard to keep up with those identities? Like you're in the undercover up and then you have to go home to your family or you're the case agent somewhere else.

Isn't that multiple personalities? What is it called? You're wearing a lot of hats. Yeah. Yeah. You know, it can be overwhelming, but, you know, it's just like everything else. You get used to it. And you can either do it or you can't, right?

But depending on your workload, depending on what's going on in the undercover investigation, it can be overwhelming. But again, it kind of reverts back to, hey, I got a job to do. This is what they pay me for. This is what, you know, I want to do. So you better do it. Right. In some movies, you always see like the good guy, the law enforcement officer that goes undercover, grow such a relationship with these individuals because you have to get close with them

that they almost feel bad in a way, like a betrayal. Does it ever get like that in your experience? You know, I have to say I met a lot of interesting people. Were they my friends? No. Did I get to know them? Yes. and I found that they were just people too.

You know what I mean? And you do kind of, you can kind of take a liking to an individual. But you have to keep an arm's distance, right? You have to realize you have a job to do. You're one thing and there another. But having said that, people are people, right? They have lives. They have, you know, wife problems or kid problems or work problems.

And you can kind of become sympathetic to that. You know, I actually had an individual. It was an undercover investigation. And we had a confidential source, an informant, from a law. large outlaw motorcycle gang. And he was gathering intelligence and evidence on individuals in that gang. And it was very high stakes. Like if they found out what he was doing, it would be very bad for him.

And he and I kind of bonded a little bit throughout the investigation. And he was his dude, we're about the same age. And he had really long hair. And he was like, when you think of a typical biker, like old school, old days, this guy fit that description. And at the time I was interacting with him, I did too. Like, I had super long hair. And the first time we met, he made a comment about it. You know, hey, cool hair, you know, whatever. And we kind of hit it off like that. And at one point during the investigation, he pulls me to the side and he's like, man, you know, this is dangerous,

you know, what I'm doing here. If these guys find out, it probably won't be. good for me. And he goes, can you do me a favor? He goes, this is my son's phone number, and he writes it down on a piece of paper. And he gives it to me. He goes, if anything happens to me, could you please call him and tell him that dad was trying to write the wrongs that he did in his life and let my son know that? Because I wasn't a very good dad, and I wasn't always there for my son. And I wasn't always there for my son. And I realize that now. And if anything happens to me, I want him to know that I'm not a terrible person. And that kind of really hit me. I'm like, one, to think enough of me to ask me to do that, you know, but two, it made me realize that although you're a hardened, you know,

gang member, you know, serious felonies on your record with the substantial, substantial criminal history, you're a person too, right? So, again, long rambling answer to your question, you do kind of see that these people are just people too sometimes. Now, those confidential informants like the scenario you're just describing, do you think that that's, that action is enough to right the wrongs of the past? I think it depends on what's in their heart. I think it can be. And it depends on what they did in their past.

You know, it depends. But I think I've found, as I've gotten older, I do see individuals that they're like, they got into this lifestyle young, and they grew older through that as they were in that organization. And they kind of grow out of it. and it depends on what they did during that time frame that they were in there. I think an individual can work towards writing the wrongs that they did.

How long did you end up doing during your whole career? I think you mentioned 22 years. Yeah, I was 22 years as a federal agent and then just a little bit over 30 years total with federal employment and then state and local time. combined. Was it your choice to retire or did, was that kind of like the limit or what did that look like? No, it was my choice. You have to retire. It's mandatory that you retire by at the age of 57, all federal agents. You can, you can't be older than 57. You have to retire. At the time I retired, I think I had oh, four four more years before I had to retire. I just reached the point in my life and my

career that I did what I wanted to do, was able to experience what I got into it to experience. And I felt that I had done as much as I could probably do in my career. And I thought, in those 30 years, it was super stressful. It was a lot of stress. I'm like, there's more to life than this. I want to get out and see different things and do different things. So it was my decision. And it was kind of tough.

But once I finally made that decision, it was the right thing to do. And every day, people will ask me even today, hey, do you miss it? Do you regret retiring? Absolutely not. It was one of the best things that I've done. But having said that, I really enjoyed my time working. When you look back on it, do you wish that you never left the state level to go to the federal? level, knowing everything you know and experienced?

That's a great question. I've often thought about that. What would I have done or where would I have been if I just stayed here at this job for my entire career? How would that have been? I've thought about that. Do I regret it? No.

I think for me, again, the journey is different for everybody. Just like in life, in law enforcement, the journey is different for everybody. You know, like I was saying, I got buddies that worked at the Sheriff's Department their whole career, and they were perfectly happy. I'm happy that I was able to experience a little bit of everything, the local level, the state level, and the federal level. I think I was lucky. When you retire from law enforcement, in your mind, do you have to, like, finish with a bang on one case? Like, I assume you're not leaving in the middle of a case. Like, what was your mindset?

that. You know, depending on the case, like you can leave and your cases are just kind of passed on and handed down to another agent. But you want to, if you can resolve them and bring closure to the case, you certainly want to do that. I did have one case that it wasn't quite closed when I retired, but it was almost. I did everything I could. It was a, a methamphetamine, amphetamine trafficking investigation of meth coming up from Mexico, again, crossing the border, coming up into the Midwest. And there was a criminal organization involved in facilitating that and moving it across the border, getting it to the region, and then distributing it through their organization.

And it was, you know, it wasn't going out with a bang. It was going out with a, you know, hey, I did this one last time and I was able to be successful in this investigation. So that's kind of how I concluded. I think there may have been one or two. It was a number of individuals, co-conspirators that were involved in it. And I think at the time I retired, there was maybe one, maybe two more individuals that needed to be sentenced still. So ultimately it had come to conclusion. So that's kind of how I coasted out.

Yeah, I could probably imagine, you know, based on talking to you, that you wouldn't want to leave with not knowing how something it was going to be resolved. Like you wouldn't leave on that note. Right. Yeah, exactly. You want to know, if you invest enough, you know, blood, sweat and tears into something and you care enough, you want to see what the outcome is. You want to know how it was, how it was.

resolved, how it ended. You know, and, you know, having said that, a great example of that is we were talking offline before we stepped in here. And there was a case where an individual was involved in the riots of Ferguson, Missouri, back during the shooting of Michael Brown and the aftermath of that and the riots and the birth of Black Lives Matters. and all that. There was a young man that got involved with running with the wrong crowd. And he was involved in some serious crimes. And we investigated him and he was convicted

of committing some serious federal crimes and sentenced to a substantial amount of time. Well, while that, you know, shortly after that happened, I was out working one day out in the streets, out in the field. And I stopped in an area to just run in and get a, I think it was a McDonald's. And I run into McDonald's and get a hamburger real fast. And I order it. I'm standing there and I'm waiting.

And I see this woman sitting probably as far as you and I are apart. And she's just staring at me. And I didn't recognize her. And she's just staring at me. And I'm like, something's up here. Like she is mean-mugging me hard. So I turn and look. at her and, you know, do one of these. And she says, are you Jim Weber? And I said, why? She goes,

you arrested my son and sent him to federal prison. And I thought, oh, man, here we go. I'm out in the street by myself, you know, who is this? And what's going on? What are she talking about? And she goes, I want to thank you for what you did. And I said, thank me. Why? She was, my son was going down the wrong path. And he was running with the wrong crowd. And he did some bad things. And you stopped him.

And he's turned his life around. And now that he's in prison, he's getting not only his, the counseling that he needs, he's also getting his college education. He's getting a college degree. and if he wasn't in there, he wouldn't be doing that. He would still be running with the wrong crowds. So she says, I don't know why we ran into each other here at this McDonald's. She goes, but I want to thank you.

And I thought, wow, I would have never in a million years expected somebody like that to say something like that to me. So I just mentioned that because we talk about concluding a career and finishing it out and wanting to know how things happen. I was really glad to hear that that kid turned his life around because although he was doing bad things, he wasn't a bad kid. He wasn't a bad kid. And I was so glad to hear that he was on the right track. Do you ever give thought to some of the people that you put in prison or caught afterwards, like years later? It's a scenario like that, the ones that aren't necessarily bad people, but they made bad decisions because they were a part of something. Yeah, I do.

You know, it's not a everyday thing, but I might do or say something or hear something or see something that maybe reminds me. Maybe I'm watching a TV show and I see somebody that reminds me of somebody that I've arrested. And I do occasionally give a thought like, man, I wonder what happened to that guy or I wonder what happened to that woman because, you know, although they got wrapped up in a bad situation, they didn't seem to be a terrible person, you know. So, yeah, to answer that question, I do occasionally wonder how folks turned out, how it ended up for them. The ones that you believe are good people caught up in a bad thing,

how do you feel about them going to, say, prisons that could be violent? Yeah, that's a good question. It, you know, I guess it's just going to be a learning experience for them. I hadn't put much thought into that type of scenario. But, yeah, I mean, I think they would need to, that would show that they would need to think about what they're doing because it could get them into a harsh reality. It could get them into a harsh condition.

So I don't know that I personally felt bad about an individual. Hey, they're going to this prison. It's not a very good prison to be in. I don't wish that on people. I don't intentionally, or I didn't seek out intentionally, hey, we need to put this person in this facility. That thought never crossed my mind. But you're in a grown-up world playing grown-up games. Sometimes when you make those mistakes, you've got to suffer the repercussions.

So unfortunately, you've got to go to places that you don't want to be sometimes. Do you think the prison system is fair? Does it work? I do think it's fair. and I do think it helps and I think it should continue on the path that it's going down because look at it like this

if we didn't have the prison system the prison system that we have today where would we be in society you know is there room for improvement absolutely could certain things be improved I'm sure from your perspective

firsthand maybe you saw some things inside that you're like this is ridiculous. This needs to be improved. I think society as a whole is recognizing that now and kind of working towards correcting any wrongs. I mean, I think you can see that based on counseling programs. You know, back in the old days, back when I started out over 30 years ago, there wasn't a whole lot of, you know, anger management courses or substance abuse counts. or, you know, alcohol or whatever. But you do see that now. And I think it is effective. And I think it is helpful to individuals, which ultimately is helpful to society. Because if you can help an individual correct themselves or write themselves or improve

themselves, that's only going to benefit society once they get out, that they're out there not running with the wrong people doing the wrong thing, that hopefully they're out, they've served their time, they deserve a new start and a fresh beginning. You know, so again, I do think it, I think it's effective, but could things be improved? Absolutely. What's something that you learned about the other side, about, you know, that criminals, the prison system that you've learned from watching the show that you didn't really think of doing your career in law enforcement.

And we're not talking about, so one of like the questionable BS stories that we were talking about offline that they're sometimes told on the show. Just something maybe like a real, raw, vulnerable moment that you never might have considered. You know, I think maybe an example of that would be

I've seen so many, man, I had a, this was a drug investigation. And it affected me so long ago to where I do kind of think about this, sometimes even today, where, you know, when I say drug investigation, again, I'm not talking about, you know, a dime bag of weed or something like, it's substantial multi, multi, multi, multi kilogram quantities of Schedule 1 dangerous drugs, truckloads of heroin, truckloads of meth, truckloads of fentanyl. That's what I'm talking about in narcotics investigations. I was in a residence one time. It was late at night. It was a trailer, a mobile home in rural Missouri. And we have a search warrant.

We're in there executing the search warrant. We have everybody inside secured, and we're beginning our search. And we're looking for large quantities of methamphetamine. And in this residence, our two young children, man, I want to say, four or five and like six and seven very young kids so you know you want to shield them from you know it was their parents and you want to shield them you don't want them seeing what's going on with their parents

and I'll never forget I was in the hallway of this mobile home from one end to the other there's like this narrow hallway and I'm walking from one into the other and I stop right in the middle. I just stopped and paused. And it was a filthy, trash, dirt-ridden, disgusting resonance. And I stop halfway down this hallway, and I'm standing there. And I'm just, I'll never get this. I'm rubbing my head. And I'm thinking, man, what are we doing here too in the morning? We've got these little kids here, you know, these people, what are they thinking? What are they doing? And as I'm standing there kind of gathering my thoughts, this little, the youngest kid walks up to

me and kind of pulls on my my pant leg and he says, I know what you're looking for. And I'm like, really what? And he goes, it's right there. And he points to the floor where we're standing. And there was like a, you know, like a welcome mat to a residence, like to a house, like a little carpet.

And he points to that. And he goes, it's under there. And he reaches down and he pulls the carpet away. And I kneeled down and I'm kneeled down with this little kid and he pulls a little hat. like a little door, like a trap door. And sure as can be in there is like a little hidden compartment with a large quantity of meth in there.

And this little kid knew that was in there and knew the police were looking for it and showed me where it was. And it was his mom and dads. And he showed that to me. And that stuck with me from that day until now that that kid did. did that, that that kid was in that environment. And I think something that I learned is

they don't teach you that in the academy. They don't prepare you for that to interact in a scenario like that where you're dealing with a young child. So that was kind of overwhelming to have that little kid give us the evidence against their appearance. They just don't teach you how to handle that in the academy. And I never would have expected something like that. So you do see things like that. It's only getting every customer's order right. It's only a point of sale system connected by Spectrum fiber-powered business internet, helping you track hundreds of secure transactions. And it's all backed by 24-7 U.S.-based customer support and local technicians.

It's only everything. Get business internet advantage free forever when you get four mobile lines from Spectrum. Visit Spectrum.com slash free for life to find out how. Restrictions apply. Service is not available in all areas. America's first pledge was freedom. Jeep still carries that fighting spirit. With the Jeep Declaration of Deals, we're pledging our allegiance to the American people with great deals on the luxurious Grand Cherokee, with available three-row seating, premium craftsmanship and tech that turns every drive into an adventure.

Or Jeep Rangler with legendary 4x4 capability and open-air freedom. Because freedom deserves the vehicle built to carry it. Jeep, there's only one. Hurry into your local dealer for the Jeep Declaration of Deals. Jeep has won more awards over its lifetime than any other SUV branch. Chief of the Jeep in the Jeep Grill or registered trademarks of XCAUS LLC. You do see real-life scenarios that are kind of, they kind of affect you. Yeah, and you never know how that kid's future would become because of his parents' actions.

Like a lot of the guests we have on the show, a lot of them stems from, like a lot of their addiction stems from their parents introducing them to cocaine, heroin, meth at eight, nine years old, you know, doing these drugs with their mom or dad. and then following down this criminal path. Yeah, I hope. And again, like I said, I thought about it. I hope that that was a positive effect on that kid and maybe that family, but I don't know. What's something that you learned over your entire career in law enforcement if you had to, you know, put it into one thought, so to say, that you'd want the audience to take away from hearing your story today? Sure.

I think that law. Law enforcement is something that's necessary. I use the analogy of a forest fire. If you have a forest fire that's raging out of control and burning everything, and the fire department doesn't come and battle that and try to contain that and try to get it under control, it's eventually going to burn and burn and burn and ruin everything. And if you don't have law enforcement out there addressing things, like serious crimes like these, like drug trafficking, human trafficking, human smuggling,

cyber crimes, money laundering, if you don't have somebody out there addressing that, it's going to keep getting worse and keep getting worse and keep getting worse and keep getting worse until society is overwhelmed. So something that I learned is that it depends on an individual's opinion. Some people might think, it's a necessary evil. Law enforcement.

I think law enforcement is not an evil. I think it's a necessary aspect to a positive society. Is there room for improvement on certain things? Sure. Right? But if we didn't have it out there, men and women,

working 24-7, putting their lives on the line so you and I can sleep comfortably and safely at home. Society would just ultimately at some point be uncontrollable. So that's something that I learned. And I think one of the most important things that I learned is when I first got into law enforcement, I thought, eh, he's arrested, bad guy, whatever, you know. People are categorized, right? as I grew and got older and more mature and more experienced and interact with people, I'm like, man, no, people are people.

People are, you know, these criminals, although they may have committed a crime, who know, we don't know the specific reason. Maybe they don't have any food for their kids. And they had to go be a prostitute to generate income to put, you know, food on the table for their kids. or maybe they had to go rob the 7-Eleven. I'm not justifying these things. I'm not saying these things are right. I'm saying people that do these things need to be punished. But there's a reason people do things, I think.

And that's something that my eyes kind of open to during my career in law enforcement. I'm a bit more sympathetic with folks in certain situations. You know, not hardcore, hardened criminals that are out, you know, doing some of the things. things that we spoke about here today, but just in general, you know, you never know why an individual is doing something. And don't be so judgmental. Well, said, well, Jim, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a great conversation. I'm looking forward to doing your show right now. Me too. I'm excited. Hey, thank you for the opportunity. I really appreciate it. Keep up the good work. I enjoy your podcast and I know many of my associates enjoy it as well.

If they ever want to come on the show, send them my way. I'm easy to get in touch with that. As you saw, you just shot me a DM and I give you props for using social media too. This old guy learned to do that. Yeah, we'll keep it up, man. You're going to go far with that. All right. Hey, thank you. Yeah, thank you.