Locked In with Ian Bick - Kim Kardashian, Kevin Keith & Fixing The American Justice System | Lori Rothschild Ansaldi

Episode Date: May 28, 2024

Ever wondered what it’s like to have one of the world’s biggest celebrities as your podcast cohost? Join Lori Rothschild Ansaldi as she takes you on an extraordinary journey of how she teamed up with the iconic Kim Kardashian to create a podcast about Kevin Keith, an American prisoner and former death row inmate from Ohio who was convicted of the 1994 triple-homicide that killed Marichell Chatman, her daughter Marchae, and Linda Chatman. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Lori Rothschild Ansaldi: https://www.instagram.com/lorirothschildofficial/?hl=en Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - The Importance of Re-Entry Support 00:05:30 - Re-entry Challenges and the World Beyond Prison 00:10:30 - Recording in LA 00:15:59 - The Flawed Criminal Justice System 00:21:05 - Getting into the Re-entry Field 00:26:12 - The Investigation into the Case and the Plight of Charles Keith 00:31:40 - Multigenerational Town 00:37:04 - The Kardashian Connection 00:42:16 - Pathways to Relief 00:47:42 - Visiting Kevin Keith in Prison 00:52:45 - The Hardships of Wrongful Convictions 00:58:06 - Speaking up for justice 01:03:31 - The Viral True Crime Story 01:08:44 - The Importance of Media Integrity 01:13:43 - Going Viral and Branding 01:18:57 - A Story of an Unsolved Murder Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

My phone rings and it says unknown on it. I pick up the phone and it was, you know, this woman who says, hi, you know, I work with Kim and sorry to be calling so late, but she's really intrigued by this, by this story. And would you consider going, having a meeting with her like next week? What I consider? I was like beating.

I was like slapping my face at the time because I thought I was like hallucinating. Welcome back to the Lockton with the InVic podcast. On today's episode, I got to interview. Lori Rothschild and Saldi. She is a hit television producer, and she also is the co-host of a Kim Kardashian podcast. I was so excited to sit down with Lori at the National Association for Reentry Professionals annual conference in Nashville last month in April, and we got to sit down and talk about how she ended up having a podcast with Kim Kardashian, what she has learned about the criminal

justice system and her life and her career and how she got into the production business. She gives a unique perspective because she is the daughter of a law enforcement official and now she's diving in deep to a whole other side of the criminal justice system. I want to give Lori a huge shout out for supporting the show and coming on and being willing to be a guest on this show. Lori is someone that's going to bring absolute change to not only the criminal justice system, but the world through the use of her work and through her nonprofit. So without further ado, sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with Lori Rothschild and Saldi. Let's get into it, Lori.

Thank you for coming on the show. We're in the hotel at the NARP conference. We met last year for the first time. Yeah. And Jimmy McGill introduced us, and now here we are. We're both board members of NARP. Yes. What do you think of like this about the whole conference and joining the organization and whatnot? You know, I really didn't know what to expect last year, to be honest. Like I didn't know. I mean, I thought I knew about reentry and I've talked to people who have reentered and again gone through a process. But the the reentry simulation that I went through last year for the first time really opened my eyes to how incredible.

difficult we make it in this country for people to return home from, you know, serving time. It's, it's virtually impossible for them to succeed if we leave it up to, you know, the system that is. You know, it really needs people who are paying attention, who've been through it themselves, who know that there's, you know, there's life after prison and that there is a, mechanisms if they look for them. And that's the hardest part, is that a lot of our system leaves it up to the people coming home to do all that work. And it's so overwhelming just to find food and shelter and, you know,

and transportation that, you know, how are they able to even, you know, concentrate on what their next step is when they're looking for basic survival? So I didn't understand that until last year until I went through that. And it really changed my entire opinion on reentry that first year that I met you. So and after that, I ended up starting my own 501C3 called Stolen Voices, which, you know, because of my work and wrongful conviction, that was like the main pillar. That's what we were, you know, sort of gearing towards to make our purpose. plight. But once I went through the reentry conference, I said there's a second pillar I want to

deal with, and that's reentry. And my, I always say it. And I don't, it sounds lofty and it also sounds like I am like, it's like, yeah, welcome to the group, you know, but my goal is to create a federal program where all people coming out of prison gets their photo ideas, they walk out the door, at the very minimum, that they're able to, you know, have something in their pockets so that they can, you know, go get a, you know, anything, like a hotel room if they have the money to do that, that, you know, you can't do anything without a photo ID. And the fact that we don't give people that is just crazy. I'm not saying driver's license.

I'm just saying a photo ID that they can identify themselves. Something, it feels so simple. Yeah, and I think that's great. And you're not, I don't think you're necessarily new to a big party because everyone and was so focused on reform. Yeah. Whereas I personally, in my experience working in this field in the past year, because I'm very new to it too,

we're probably in the same time frame. And I used to always think like reform, reform, reform, reform. But then I realized if you solve the reentry, which you don't need legislation necessarily to make big waves in it, you can have such a big impact on the criminal justice system. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, and that's me is,

yesterday, and again, I went through the simulation yesterday, right? And they were like, you sure you want to do it again? I'm like, no, I need to do it again to refresh my memory as to what, you know, what that feels like. Because I haven't been impacted by the justice system, you know, and I think that when you or your family member has been, you have a very different perspective than someone who's never been impacted at all, right? I come from a law enforcement family. I've never had that in my life.

I never had to visit someone in prison, like a parent or anything like that. So for me, you know, I really wanted to refresh what that felt like that the desperation, just to get food, just to understand, like, do I go to a food bank? Do I go to a homeless shelter, that kind of thing? And yesterday, you know, first year is like, I need my photo ID, right? That was the first, like, thing that I, like, really focused on and took away last year. but this year it was from this 30,000 foot view of reentry, it's like we have all these people and all these organizations

doing really great work across the country, right? Why is it that it almost feels like the connection of the dots isn't being met with there should be like a list. I mean, I'm making this up. I mean, this sounds like elementary school. There should be like a list of here are the people coming out of prison today you know, and what who they should be, you know, who their case managers are, and that they can be like, you know, put those pieces together

so that when someone walks out of the gate with their paper bag, with their soap and their socks, it's like, it's like, and bus passes and $25 or whatever the heck they give them, that they're given some sort of more information. I mean, I remember talking to Kevin Keith, and it always reminds me of like someone walking out into like the world that left them behind, right? I remember Kevin Keith when I told him that we were doing a podcast on his story for Spotify.

And he was like, that's amazing. I mean, he was so excited. And he goes, Lori, I have to ask you a question. And go, what's that? He goes, what's a pod? I mean, he went to prison in 94. And the podcast blew up in like 2007 or 2008. Well, I mean, I had to go all the way back to the iPod.

Like, why are we calling it a pod? Like, what is, you know, where does that word come from? and talking about like, you know, how we listen to everything on our phones. Like it's not on a radio. It's like an app. Well, what's an app? Like there's just, he's like an alien in other worlds. And there's a lot of guys that walk out and they're aliens in this world.

They've never seen, you know, the world that we live in today. You know, everything looks different. Yeah. I mean, I was gone for 28 months and smart TVs. There was no smart TVs when I went in. So if that was my experience, I can't imagine some of these guys that, just it's mind-blowing what's changed in the world. Yeah, it has, like, I always think, like, what would it feel like to come home and just see the cars, have different, you know, and of course,

he's not that big of an alien. You see them on TV. Like, there's television inside of prison, they get to watch things and stuff, but, or even tablets. But to actually be a part of that, you know, sort of world is, like, different. It's, it's fascinating. But that's what I always think about when someone walks out of prison and they're giving like, you know, this paper bag. It's like, good luck. Like, how do you manage any of this? Like, we don't even carry cash anymore. People don't even realize that.

We're like, like, who has cash anymore? That's like a crazy concept. Yeah, they gave me $25 bucks cash and my commissary card, which I wasn't allowed to use until 48 hours later because they want you to get to the halfway house, so they have it deactivated. And I gave the $25 bucks to the camp driver who smuggled my contraband cell phone out of the camp for me so I could have it for the plane ride home. But 25 bucks doesn't really get you anywhere.

I was going to ask you what you spent your $25 on. Yeah, I just gave it to him so he could have cash. Because in the federal prisons, there's vending machines in the visiting rooms. And at the camps, you can just like go in that area. So guys would just go in, get like a cheeseburger or sodas or anything. Sure. So it's pretty fascinating. Well, I went in.

I only just visited one of my clients. I advocate for people all around the kind of. country, but one of my guys is up in Salinas up in California. And I went in and again, like, I've, I've been to so many prisons and you forget sometimes. Like, you know, I have my clear bag with me and, you know, I'm like, you know, my whole, like, don't wear an underwire to go visit a federal prisoner. And I go in and I remember this girl looking at me and she goes, are you going in there with that? And it was just my place. I was like, why, what did I do? She's like, you got a $20 bill. You need to, that needs to be on singles.

And I'm like, it does? And she's like, yeah, I'm like, do you have change? And she's like, no, we don't have change. I'm like, well, what do I do? She's like, either run it to your car or you can tear it up in front of me. I'm like, I'm going to my car, you know. But these are the things that you just don't even know. But I think about like, and again, like, all I wanted to do is buying a cheeseburger from the vending machine,

the terrible, like, you know, cheeseburger from a vending machine. Which aren't bad. They're not terrible. He loved it. Yeah. When you did the Kevin Keith with Spotify, did you guys go to the studios in L.A.? No. So, oh, I mean, we did.

I've done a lot of recording there. But it's a great studio. I filmed my podcast there. Oh, you did? Yeah, we just have a partnership now with Spotify. Nice. So they let us, they have like a creator program. So we're a part of that program.

Oh, great. And they gave us video on Spotify now. Nice. And I go to their studio once a month in L.A. Oh. Have you ever seen the TV show Power? Yes. So we're slowly getting the whole cast on.

I just had Gianni Paolo on when I went out there. And then Patricia Callumber, who plays Tommy's mom in the show, she's coming to the studio on Friday. Oh my gosh, that's really cool. So we have all these figures and then Chevy Chase came on the podcast too. That's so cool. Yeah. So just like this whole world of celebrities, you never would have thought you cross paths with.

I know. It's great. now it's beautiful there and I'll never forget I am um L.A is this like ever since I've moved there I was because I'm a New Yorker you know it's like yeah it's a little it's a lot being in Los Angelino now but I remember coming into Spotify and coming in and they're like would you like some water I'm like yeah they're like with with bubbles or without because they have like a custom like yeah do you know what I'm talking about and they got the fridge and they got it's like a it's like a It's like a draft beer, only it's like Pellegrino.

I'm like, are we serious right now? I didn't get that treatment. I'm not big time. Yeah, I'm not big time either, but I was like, wow, this is very L.A. Bubbles are no bubbles in. They have so many studios that just sit there because a lot of people don't come in. And it's only for creators that work with Spotify. But it's so cool.

And like you can move the video. Do you guys do video for years? No. They have like a board. You can adjust the cameras manually. Oh, that's so cool. No, I know it was state of the art when we went in. I did a bunch of records there at the end of the, before we premiered.

I think it might have been promo or something. But no, when we were in the height of recording for the system, it was pandemic. We had gone into the field to get field material for the podcast on the ground in Ohio in February of 2020. And I touched back down in Los Angeles. on March 9th, 2020. And five days later, the world came to an end. God forbid. No, it's shut down for pandemic.

So we were on hold for a long time while everyone sort of figured out, you know, how life was going to maneuver and what this thing called COVID was going to be for all of us. And so I'm just lucky enough that, you know, I happen to live within, you know, five minutes from Kim. and when your co-host is Kim Kardashian and she has her own studio in her home, you know, we were able to record, you know,

as long as we were testing appropriately and things like that, I would just go to her house and record there. So that that became our studio for, you know, for the majority of the records that we've done together, you know, which is the majority of the podcast. But, you know, my, that podcast, the system is, you know, what we're doing right now is obviously a conversation between two people, whereas the system is really a storytelling documentary style serialized over eight episodes. So, you know, it really was

structured more like a storytelling device and, you know, weaving a lot of information over the course of eight episodes is really hard, especially when, and that, you know, the audio medium is so, it's magical, but it's super, super difficult to remember that your listener is only using one of their senses, right? They're creating the images in their head, whereas I'm a television producer, and so I'm so used to having both audio and visual in my documentaries, you know, accompanying them and reminding the viewer of pieces of information that you want them to thread through the story. And in audio, what we realize is that a lot of it is reminding people of the pieces of the puzzle that you want them to remember. Because it's hard.

It's not an easy case. None of these cases are easy to listen to and to understand because there's a lot of players and how they sort of intertwine and create the, you know, the narrative of the story. But I found it to be a very difficult medium to. to adjust to when you are so used to using two senses and not just one. And we had great partners in Tenderfoot TV. They're based out of Atlanta. Don Albright, Meredith Stedman. They're like some of the best audio producing podcast writers I've ever worked with. I mean, they're fantastic storytellers. I'm really, really grateful that they were part of that experience because it's definitely different than what I do. I don't claim to be a podcast.

producer. I'm definitely in television and can tell a great story and and that the system is part of my life because I dedicated so much time to that case, but they really crafted it. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting the podcast market was so flooded and now people are standing out by creating these miniseries. I was talking to Jed who I had mentioned and he has his own mini series and you see like Julia Fox who has a mini series every, you know, once a year with Spotify and a lot of creators go that route. But on the other end, it is harder with advertisers and whatnot because they're shorter. And whereas you have a podcast with weekly listeners every single week, it's kind of like it's on that balance beam. But it's super interesting to see how that's created.

I worked on a project with Sony. That was like an eight episode podcast with my story. And that hasn't come out yet. They're still in development. But I'm like, I'm looking at them. I'm like, how do we not do video? Like I want video. Well, right, right, because it's hard not, it's hard to put the pieces together. It's not an easy thing. But it's really hard. And I think that, you know, my favorite, I mean, what introduced me to the podcast medium was cereal. You know, that was my, at the Adnan-Syad case was, you know, that's what drew me in.

And I continue to, you know, I have other podcasts that I listened to. But that one again, it's serialized. It's over a course of, I think it was 13 episodes. I couldn't get out of my car. I was, you know, in L.A. You go from, you know, meeting to meeting in your car. And I would be late to all my meetings because I was still like, but I have to figure out what happened, you know. And that's what we really wanted for the system was for people to feel so compelled that they had to binge it in order to really understand what happened in this terrible case.

And then at the end of it, and what I did with the Adnan Sayed case is I purposely didn't go online. I didn't look out of any newspaper articles. I didn't want any information. I just wanted to listen to the whole thing. And to try to like what I thought Heyman Lee look like and then actually seeing the people. Like I love doing that. Like I love that experience. So I kind of, that's what we really wanted to do with the system.

And I hope that experience kind of came through for people that they were intrigued enough by the story, you know, as agitated as, as I was in the course of it and what has happened to Kevin and his family and the victims in that case. I mean, there are multiple victims in the case. And regardless of Kevin is innocent or not, there's still a killer that went in and created, you know, did a vicious crime. And they need to be brought to justice. And that's another thing. It's like, you know, when you learn in wrongful conviction that when someone goes to prison wrongfully, you know, especially in a murder case, God forbid, like Kevin or any of the other guys that I advocate for, those cases are considered closed, even when those people are exonerated, which means that

the victim never gets any justice, ever. So a killer remains free. Victim goes without their story being told as to what their truth was and what actually happened to them. And some person lost years of their life sitting in prison for a crime they didn't commit. It's, it's just a vicious, terrible thing that happens. I didn't even realize that aspect of it, that the cases don't get reopened. Yeah, because they're considered closed. And when a case is closed, the last thing anybody wants to do in law enforcement is admit that they got it wrong, right? It's like a big egg on the face.

So every person working on those cases. And there's no resources dedicated to go out and actually finding the real killer. So if there is no DNA, which a lot of these cases are non-DNA tests, cases, which means that what was presented in front of a jury was a narrative, was a story. And they were convinced that the story that was being told to them by the prosecution was the truth. That's why they convicted, right? But if that was all lies or not true, I don't want to use lies because I don't, I don't like to think that every one of these things were, you know, just people lying. I think that in law enforcement, which is a terribly difficult job, I'm not saying that it's easy,

but people get blinders on, right? They believe so fiercely that the story that they have in their head and the individual they have in front of them as their killer, quote-unquote killer, is the right one, that they'll do anything to prove that case. And it's, you know, it happens time and time again, but they will not dedicate resources to go, back and finding the right killer, especially if there's no DNA. If there's no DNA, there's no proof, right? Who's going to go back and then retry it? You know, something that's interesting about you is you've experienced all three elements of the criminal justice system. You came from law enforcement, like your family, your father. You worked with individuals who are incarcerated, and now you're

working with individuals that are not incarcerated in the reentry field. How did you get into all this? So it started with the Kevin Keith case. That's where it started. But, well, I mean, obviously, I come from law enforcement family. So that's, that's, you know, when you're part of like this, the world of law enforcement, you kind of hear the bad guys and the good guys and, you know, all that kind of stuff. But I started in documentary television at the Discovery Channel. I was inside of Discovery for many years. And when I came out of the network side and came into the production side, The main production company I worked for based in L.A. was they specialized in true crime. And this was like my field day. I was excited to do that because those are easy stories to tell for me. It was stories of, you know, great loss, the highest of stakes, someone lost their life. You have, you know, a bad guy and the good guys and the good guys are the cops, right? They were the people saving the day. They were going in.

They were doing a great investigation. And in the end, the bad guy went to prison. Justice was served. And for as many years as I did that work, and I still do that work. I'm still in true crime. I still do a lot of those cases, and I still work that. But I've seen a lot of really, really good police work all over this country. Police departments who have no resources, have zero funding, have, you know, six men crew

in a small little town and, you know, bohunk wherever, tiny little places, doing incredible investigative work. Work that your mind is blown by it. An example is there was this, and I don't remember where it was. I think it might have been Alabama. It's one of those states. It could have been, it was either Alabama or Arkansas, but I think it was Alabama. And a young girl had gone to a party in high school and came home late

and apparently walked home alone or with friends. And she never came home. Girl never came home. And they found her, I think, the next day, raped. And I believe, I think she was strangled if I remember it. Either way, she was not alive. She was deceased. And she was in the back of a baseball field.

I remember reading the story, and her body was tied up against the gates of the backstop of a baseball field. And there was grass under it. So maybe it wasn't the backstop. thought maybe it was around the outfield. But regardless, she was, she was against this, these, um, this fence and she was, you know, naked from the waist down kind of thing. And, uh, she was dead. And they went in and again, this is like a very small police department goes in. And they do the, um, the crime scene cleanup. You know, they take the body way. There's no, there's no, there's no wondering who the child is, you know who it is. And she was identified

immediately. But they had to find a killer and they, that case was cold for a really long. on time. And what's interesting and the reason why I bring that case up is because they did such a great job in the collection of the crime scene that they clipped the green grass that was underneath her body and they preserved it so beautifully and well that I think it was like 25 years later they were able to pull DNA and actually find her killer. Oh, wow. And so you can't tell me that there aren't great police officers out there. I've seen it with my own eyes. I've worked with law enforcement. I worked with someone today who called me about another case. And, you know, I've been through special homicide investigative classes. So I'm an investigator myself. And so I really applaud the

work that they do. What they see every single day is nothing that I get to see every day. And I'm happy that they do the work that they do. They're brave. And they deserve that sort of accolade. But in 2016, I was actually working on a show called Murder She Solved, which was basically when police officers don't do enough and women come in and like solve. It's like those sludes, you know, and there they like take it on themselves, you know, these crazy women. Anyway, this one woman who's incredible, she's got a great story herself. I was covering her story. She said, Lori, I know you love my story. She's based out of Ohio, but there's this guy, Charles Keith, and his brother's innocent and you should really look into it.

And, you know, I remember my first instinct was like, everybody who says they're innocent is in prison and says they're innocent. You know, it's like he's been convicted. I'm sure he actually did it. I remember it clearly passing through my brain. And she sent me a link to an article about the case. And I remember not clicking it. And I think she sent it like three additional times.

And there was just one day at work where I was just having lunch at my desk and I was going through emails and I came across and I clicked the link. And I read what she had sent me. It was in the Cleveland Scene magazine. A young reporter was covering the case. And I was intrigued. And I started investigating myself. And it never stopped. That was 2016.

And what attracted me to that case initially was not Kevin's story. It was his brother's story. Charles Keith. Charles is a guy who, you know, he was the eldest of, I don't know how many children, but I think it was more than six. He was the eldest brother, so of a single mom household, and he was the older brother, father figure. So when this happened to Kevin, his younger brother, and I asked him, I said, how do you know, how did you know your brother was innocent? He said, because I raised him. He was a champion football player in high school. He was, he might have been messed up with drugs. He might have done that. You know, he might have been smoking a lot of pot.

And he might have done crack. But I'm telling you right now, he's not a killer. I know. And he wouldn't kill kids. Like, that's not who he is. And so he knew it in his gut. And he, from the moment Kevin was arrested, it was as if Charles went to prison with his brother. And his prison was this constant search for his brother's innocence. And at first, and he always says it, it's a Charles Keith special. He's got these little bites that you just love because he just, he talks and sound bites. And he said, I didn't try to, I wasn't trying to prove my brother's innocence. I just wanted to figure out how they found him guilty, you know, because none of it made sense.

You know, he wasn't there that night. it wasn't there. He had an alibi. You know, why, you know, how, how was it that they could have found him guilty with the information that they had? So he knew from the jump. And that was sort of to me a really relatable thing is the first thing I said in my own head again was I had a sister. I mean, if my sister did something bad, would my instinct to be, would put my entire life on hold and prove her innocence. Jennifer, I would, I promise. But you think about it because it's relatable. Like, it's relatable. Like, you know, he's a really relatable character. And what's interesting about that and the Kevin, you know, the Charles Keith of it all, is that that's what attracted Kim, right? Kim and her sisters are arguably some of the most famous siblings on the planet.

And we're talking about Kim Kardashian for people that live under a rock. Oh, yeah, that Kim. Yeah, that Kim. It's not just any Kim. Yeah, I'm sorry about that. Yeah, I say it as if everyone knows what I'm talking to. about but yeah um so that was the exact same thing that really kind of got to her and i knew it i knew that if you know once kim was able to see the um the story of charles keith it would be highly

relatable to her um and what she would do for her own siblings and we've talked we've talked about that a bunch about like you know knowing and and realizing what you would do for your family um and i think that's what makes that case incredibly powerful too, is that you really relate to, you know, the plight of the brother. And, I mean, Kevin really didn't have a clue what happened to him if you think about it. He was, you know, he thought he was getting arrested on additional drug charges when the police came and like banged down his door and arrested him for murder. He was like, murder.

Actually, they didn't even see murder. They just said they was being arrested. He didn't know, I think, for like, 12 hours that he was being arrested for murder. He was like, murder. Like, I thought you got me on drug charges again. I admit it. Like, you know, I haven't sold any drugs in a while, but maybe you got me in something. But he had no idea what it happened to him and what had happened in that apartment in Bucyrus, Ohio.

But it really was Charles' investigation into the entire thing that drew me in. So that's where it started for me. So it started really from law enforcement, really having this strong, like, respect for law enforcement. and detectives and investigation and realizing that there's great law enforcement out there. And then it bridged over to what if they got it wrong in wrongful convictions and realizing that the system isn't perfect and that when you have human beings out there

who have egos and sometimes they are promoted or given their jobs based on their wins, what length they will go to ensure a win because we're human beings. and we're not perfect and we do that. And that's based off what our system is. And then, you know, and then I, it was during pandemic, so I was in the middle of doing the podcast, the system podcast,

when I was presented with a story of a sheriff from a very small town in D. Queen, it was called D'Queen, Arkansas. I'd never heard of Dekine, Arkansas before this sheriff was presented to me and his deputy, this guy, Sheriff Robert Gentry and then Deputy Chris Walcott out of Sevier County, Arkansas. And they were really, really proud that they're from this really small town that was multi-generational. Once you basically are born there, you stay there. The grandparents are there, and it's a multi-generational town, and everybody knows everybody there. And so when they were in law enforcement there, in that small town where they grew up, they realized that, and like a lot of other towns across this country, they were being plagued with methamphetamine.

It was cheaper to get methamphetamine on the street than it was to go buy alcohol, especially in the Bible Belt where these were dry counties. You'd have to travel to go to a bar or buy alcohol. So it was really easier. It was much easier to get drugs. So what was happening is they were watching the people they grew up with, their family members included, get arrested on low-level drug crimes, do their 90 days, which was, you know, standard 90 days for their low-level drug crime, come out, get out of that sentence, go home, go back to the exact same environment, re-offend again, and be back in like two months, you know? So it's this revolving door of the same people coming through their jail. And they said, we have to do something better. And Jimmy McGill, who we know in love, has, you know, really worked hard in reforming how we look

at addiction in reentry in the great state of Arkansas. Again, you don't realize where these programs come from, but it really takes an addict to understand an addict, right? So he worked with the state to create these programs where those 90 days that a low-level drug user comes in and offends, those 90 days are seen as actually rehab. We use that time to rehabilitate to show and get them. Obviously, in that 90-day program, there's no drugs, right? It's very easy to stay clean when there's no drugs to be had around you. The problem is when they go home and they go back to the environment and they go back to their homey,

and they go back to what they know best. So how do you change that? So what they've done is the first 90 days is that rehab inside. They give them the tools to stay clean and to understand what their hope and dreams and desires are to not be an addiction. And then they give them the tools after. So a whole nine-month program after,

including halfway housing and support system and peer counseling and things like that. And they have a 78% success rate. They're saving, they're not saving lives, it's saving multiple generations of lives because everybody knows me when you're an addiction that it's not just the addicts that goes to prison and the entire family goes with them. So that really inspired me when I heard that story. We did an eight-part series for Discovery called the Program Prison Detox, and that was my first

foray into re-entry. So as soon as I did that program, so I had the law enforcement, the wrongful conviction, and low-level drug crime reentry. And that's when I met Jimmy McGill, and Jimmy Miguel said, you need to come to the re-entry, the NARP conference, and meet other people who have been through re-entry

and what re-entry actually looks like. And so that's when I became an advocate on the re-entry side as well. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah, Jimmy was parading you around last year. He wanted to meet everyone. I was a mixture of both.

Yeah, he's the best. He came on the show. I actually interviewed him at the Lowenow County Jail in Arkansas. I got invited into there and I interviewed the sheriff and Jimmy where Jimmy was formally incarcerated in there. That's great. So it was a great moment to see that. And Jimmy's opened up a lot of doors for me and he's just like a great guy. He's incredible.

His story is incredible. Absolutely. So how does Kim Kardashian fit into this whole mix? How are you able to get the attention of how many discounts does USA auto insurance offer? Too many to say here. Multi-vehicle discount. Safe driver discount. New vehicle discount.

Storage discount. How many discounts will you stack up? Tap the banner or visit usa.com slash auto discounts. Restrictions apply. To go on this podcast with you. You know, it's always by the grace of God when things happen. And, you know, at the beginning of, I would say when we were really sort of at the height of Kevin's The Investigation, the idea was to do a limited document.

series originally. That's what I wanted to do. And so at the time, there were all these other documentaries that were really making waves on Netflix and things like that. And I thought maybe if we could get, you know, someone, a name on this, it would help, you know, sort of bridge the gap and get it over the line to get this project made because there were so many of them out there. And so I talked to everybody. I mean, I, I, um, from, you know, Rock Nation, Jay Z's company to, um, Meek Mill. Um, I mean, I, everyone, T.I. I mean, there was so many people that we spoke to and met with.

And nothing really seemed quite right. Everyone, you know, and not that they don't all individually do great work, but it was like, it, it was a name to be put on and, and, um, it didn't feel organic to it. It was just felt like, you know, let's just put a person's name on it to put a person's name on it. And they felt the same way too, right? It's sort of God's work when things like that happen, when you all agree that it's like not the right thing. And then I remember, I was actually a produce, my production company at the time was housed inside of Fremantle. And Fremantle, if you don't know it, is a ginormous studio that's very, very, very, you know, well known for game shows. So American Idol, America's got talent, any game show that you can think of is basically through Fremantle. And we, my production company was this like true crime arm, right? We had this little production company inside a behemoth. And I remember people would walk by my office when I was like in my investigation mode. And I would have, you know, like a lunatic.

I'd have like pictures with red string and, you know, the whole thing. I was like a real, with papers all over my floor. newspaper clippings. I looked like I was like a psychotic. And there was this one guy who would always pass and be like, what's going on in here? You know, what are you doing? And I told him, and he was really great. And he was one of the producers on Family Feud. And so he came to my office one day, and he knew the story. I would tell him what was going on. And he was really intrigued by it. And we had gone on, we did an episode of the Breakfast Club, which was kind of neat. I had to tell my mom that I was going to New York to be on the breakfast club.

And she goes, well, what is that? And I said, well, it's kind of like, it's kind of like a black Howard Stern. Like, think of it that way. And she goes, oh, worry, I don't know about that. It was just so funny. I'll never forget. My mom was like, I don't know about that. But we sort of were getting like people were knowing about the Kevin Keith case because

we were talking to so many people, right? So he was really intrigued by the case and the success of like, like talking to all these people and that we were getting buzz around the case. And I remember him coming in and saying to me, Lori, we're actually doing an episode of the Kardashian Jenner's versus the Wests when Kim and Kanye were still together. And I go, really? I'm like, that's cool. And he goes, would you want me to like present the case to Kim?

Because she had done this work with Alice Johnson and got Alice Johnson out and, you know, became, you know, a name in the criminal justice reform space. So it wasn't like it was way out of question to have Kim be a part of it. And I'm like, sure. I promise you, it was just like, yeah, go ahead, you know, and I sent him the real, you know, or I sent him, you know, some information or whatever it might be, never thinking anything would happen. And it's actually a really funny story in my family because we're Italian and every Friday night we do pizza and a movie with my kids. So if you're in L.A. and you want to come for pizza in a movie. It's on Friday night.

Sounds good. Yeah. So, and that happens every Friday because I don't cook on Fridays. So, and it also works with Lent, you know what I mean? So you don't have meats. Anyway, it's an all-year-along thing. So it's a Friday night. And my kids already, I know my kids were already in bed because I was in,

and for some reason my husband, I think, already went to bed. And I was sitting having another glass of wine. So I'm definitely not in a position to take a business call. and my phone rings and it says unknown on it. And I go, who's calling me? You know, it didn't occur to me that it would be anywhere, anything around with Kim. But I pick up the phone and it was, you know, this woman who says, hi, you know, I work with Kim and I'm sorry to be calling so late,

but she's really intrigued by this story. And would you consider having a meeting with her like next week? what I consider. I was like beating. I was like slapping my face at the time because I thought I was like hallucinating. I was like of course, you know, of course. And you know, I just, I know it sounds like it's so L.A. to say this, but it's like I literally live in the same town as Kim. Like I live, my kids are, we, we live in Calabasas, California. So it's like the fact that she's, I remember saying like, as if it's normal. I was like, you know, I live in Calabasas. I could just go to her house if that's easier.

And they're like, that's perfect. And I'm like, really? Like, this is happening, right? And I remember I went into my, like, my eldest was a teen, like a, like a tween at the time. He's now a senior in high school. And I go and I go, Ethan, wake up. I was just on the phone with Kim Kardashian.

And, and it was just really funny. But, and he's like, oh, my God. Like, what are you going to wear? You know, that's what he was concerned about? That's, you know, it's like, oh, my God, what are you going to wear to that? I'm like, I don't know. But yeah, so then they scheduled a time for us to meet, and I went over to Kim's house, and I showed her the materials that I presented for, that was for a documentary.

And within hours, she was, you know, on board. And I was on the phone with her legal team and, you know, vetting the case. Because, you know, one of the biggest things for wrongful conviction is, making sure that your case is viable, you know, that when you're telling it, it's, there's, there's no pitfalls that could potentially happen. And really, what are the pathways to relief, right? There's some, there's some cases, unfortunately, out there that have really tremendous roadblocks in front of them. And in Kevin's case, where, while they still have tremendous roadblocks, there was a lot of pathways to relief in terms of like, we were still

in the courts. You know, we still had some appeals that we were able to work through, through his habeas. And then also, clemency was also a route that we could take. So there was pathways to relief that we could actually go for. And so we were really lucky that, you know, her legal team saw what we saw on it. And yeah, we came together as a team at that point. So at the very beginning it was not a podcast. It was, it was a documentary, I think it was supposed to be a three or four-part series for, you know, a major streamer. And then Spotify came along and said, would you be interested in doing a podcast? And I remember us talking about it and thinking about it as, well, we really see it as a three-layered approach to the cat.

I still see it this way. There is the podcast, there's the documentary, and there is scripted. Right? Because this is a movie. When and if Kevin walks out of that prison, that's a movie. Because nothing could, you know, the story that not just the, you know, the, as we all like to say in true crime, the twists and turns, but just the amazing characters within it, the Charles Keith, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, you know, who is his amazing attorney, a, uh, a, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, you know, a young attorney straight out of college, basically, taking on a case like this, who was a, who had dreams of being a public defender. And she really wanted to, like, change the world. And this is the case that gets landed on her desk. I mean, there's so many. And everyone says to me, and you're the, like, the Aaron Brockovich of it, you know, and, you know, for, you're probably too young to even know Aaron Brockovich is. But does, do you have a relative? Because

I recognize the name of Brockovich. That's so far. funny. So Aaron Brockovich is a very famous story. Julia Roberts played her. There was, I believe it was like a terrible like ring of cancers like very rare cancers happening in specific region. And she did the invest this woman, Aaron Brockovich, did this amazing investigation that uncovered. There was like, and you have to do the research on it because I'm not even it. But I know Julia Roberts played her in the movie. But Aaron Brockovich is like a is, is. you know, as an investigator who kind of like digs in. It's kind of like those armchair sleeves that we were talking about before.

So, yeah, and I remember talking to multiple very big actors who, when I first started, before I was on the breakfast club or maybe just after, I had a list actors asking me if they could play. They wanted, they were interested in playing Charles Keith. Wow. Yeah. So that's something that we want to do after. So the podcast kind of let us have that three-layered approach, whereas if we just did the documentary,

I don't know if the podcast would work. Like you'd already know the case too well. Like the visual would be too much, I think, to then go back and do the podcast and the way that we did it. So it's almost like we had this ladder that we thought about. And what would come first? We would do script it and then the documentary or documentary? Anyway. What was his reaction when you visit?

visited him or talked to him for the first time. Kevin. Did you think you were like some crazy woman obsessed with his case? Or did he believe in you and earn that trust? Yeah, I think he thought I was nuts when I first night on him, for sure. Now, I think he was really grateful. I think he was grateful that someone took notice of his case. I don't, I don't even say I think it.

I know that that's what he felt. I know that he was in awe that someone was taking the time to not only listen to his brother, right? Because his brother at this point, think about it, it's like 25 years. He sounds like a lunatic, right? When you start spewing the same information over again, you're just trying to get people to, you know, to listen, you become a broken record, right? And I think a lot of people around Charles was getting annoyed with Charles. It's like enough already about your brother in prison. Like he's not getting out, right? So finally, to have someone, you know, listen and see it for what it was and actually take in the investigation and listen to his attorney who was fighting for him, this girl, this now woman, Rachel Troutman.

I think he was really, and he remains eternally grateful for the work that's been done. And, you know, he, you know, he's got Kevin's Angels. He's got, you know, he's got Rachel Troutman, me, and Kim. Does Kim visit him? Has she visited? Yes, she has. Yeah. In fact, we did a panel at the Ohio State University back this past April where we all got together

and on a panel and talked about the Kevin Keith case for the students there who were in the Ohio State Law School and Law program. And we had a lot of other people obviously coming in because Kim was there to hear about like her work in criminal justice reform and specifically this case. And then after we did that presentation, she went over to Marion and he's a Marion correctional and she was able to sit down and meet Kevin for the first time face to face in prison. That's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. It's so fascinating how one thing is like a domino effect. Like if your friend never pushed it on you and was pursuant, you wouldn't be where you're at today. Kim never would have found out about it that everything wouldn't have transpired the way it did.

Exactly. And I think about that all the time. Like what made me click that link that day? I just had nothing to do. Like that was, I mean, it changed the trajectory of my, I wouldn't be sitting here with you probably today because I would not have been pitched the Dequeen, Arkansas reentry program if they didn't think I was in criminal justice reform.

It wouldn't have come to me. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm meant to be in the space. I don't know why. I don't know why I've been chosen for, and I'm grateful that I was. And, you know, I always say, like, half of my work in documentary television is, like, lifestyle and, like, family-friendly stuff. So I have, you know, TLC, large family shows that I do, doubling down with the Doricos. They have 14 kids and live in Las Vegas. It's an adorable show.

Aren't there, like, tens of those shows, like those types of shows? Like, so many different variations. I did the Seven Little Johnstons. The company I was at the Little Gros. the little couple. I mean, those are shows. I worked at the Travel Channel for many years. Yeah, I've done some food shows.

So I have like that part of my documentary career. And then the other side, which is all true crime and murder. And there's really nothing in between. It's like at some point I want to do, you know, just like a, I don't know, like a game show or something, something a little bit later. I got the perfect one for you. A game show? Yeah, I'll show you after. If you're in a reality TV at all, because I think it'll come right.

up this alley in this space. You got to. With exactly what you're doing right now with the people you're working with. Cool. Matt knows what it is, commissary cookoff. Yeah, I'll show it to you after.

I'm telling you, this thing's a home run. Yeah. And I know exactly what you're talking about. Have you seen the YouTube videos or no? No. Okay, so we actually,

I'll just give you a brief overlay. We, last year when I started producing the podcast and, you know, the article, No Jumper. Yeah.

So they had published a piece on me about the paying for protection and that's what blew up my podcast. And so I was like, well, what else can I do? And I wanted to do something that was fun with it. So we started putting out this show called the Commissary Cookoff. And what it was was inmates, former inmates that would come and do my podcast and we'd cook off against each other.

So we have like these episode, we have about 10 episodes that live on YouTube that have thousands of views and it's professionally done. And when my first episode came out, I had all these producers calling me, the producer from Juno, all of these guys that were like, I pitched this to MTV or whoever, and they didn't understand the concept because they didn't want to go into the prison.

But with this concept, you don't have to. Imagine having like a Martha Stewart who went to prison battling against like a professional chef or a Gordon Ramsey going against like a convict that because of this influencer space. I think the first person that taps into the prison influencer space is going to hit a home run. I think that's so interesting.

It's funny because I have had so many conversations with, with, I call them residents and I call them inmates. I find inmates to be sort of like, you know, it's too, it's too harsh for the guys that I speak to. But the recipes that they come up with with the basic ingredients that they're given. You could fry rice. Like literally we would take rice and fry it. How would you fry it? So it's a dehydrated rice and you fry it.

with oil in the microwave. They would replace the microwave so often because we're cooking in the microwave for 20 or 30 minutes at a time, running consistently, putting oil. I had so many dishes. Like there was nachos and fried rice. And when you see this series, I'll show you. I have to see it. It's like this fascinating world.

It's literally incredible. I speak to, I mean, every time I speak to Kevin, I'm always asked like, like, what are you eating, you know? and it's always fascinating. And what you can do with a ramen noodle is just fascinating too. But I mean, yeah, I mean, they're artists when it comes to that. I think it's a great idea. Yeah, that's really fun.

So you had mentioned before that you had that mentality when someone said to you prior that, you know, when the person says they're innocent, that's what they all say. How does that statement make you feel now? Knowing everything you know now and working in the space you know now, the next time someone says they're actually innocent to you, what would you do in that moment? I have a really hard time looking away, a really hard time. And I've had my heartbroken a bunch. I'll say that too. Where I really always, I will, any time I get contacted, I will do the diligence of looking into a case and doing my own vetting point. process and pulling information and talking to lawyers and understanding. Like I said, what are the

avenues to relief available to the case? What can we do to help this person? Because you have to be realistic in a lot of this. And you don't want to get someone's hopes up because it takes years. Kevin Keith is still in prison to this day, right? And I've been on that case since 2016, and I know who the real killer is. I'm not afraid to say it because this is not Kevin. And there are so many other cases that I know that are still in prison because of it, right? But there are people who, you know, and I think if you tell a narrative to yourself enough, you even believe it yourself, that I've gotten screwed or the DNA test was wrong or, you know, and I have other heartbreaking cases of gang-related activity where I believe that he wasn't there.

I believe that he didn't commit the crime. But when you have five of your homies from your gang all pointing at you to protect the other guy on the street, law enforcement doesn't give a shit. They're pointing at you. You've got five witnesses against you. And the streets are not going to come back, unfortunately, and say, just kidding. It was actually him. You know, it's hard to come back from that. So it would take the grace of God to find a piece of exculpatory evidence to knock away five.

eyewitnesses, even if they're liars. I mean, that's terrible. And it is the, it is the truth of what I see a lot. And I can't do anything about it. It breaks my heart. That's why I say that because I don't necessarily think they're lying. I think they're telling the truth where I think that they, you know, are in a, in a place that they desperately want to get out of and they're trying so hard to get someone to listen to their story, whatever it might be, even if it was a hardship. So it's not always the case that people say they're innocent and they truly are innocent. So you have to vet those cases. You have to make sure those pathways.

You have to find legal help, right? That's the other thing. You know, we have stolen voices has, you know, five or six now international law firms willing to give pro bono work, pro bono work to those cases that they feel are innocence cases. But they have to be innocence cases or else you're not getting a pro bono attorney to come on, right? They have to see that there is a pathway to relief. So has it changed my opinion? Absolutely.

I never look away. Anybody who contacts me, you know, you have to see the amount of mail I get. I'm sure a ton. I think I have 150,000 unread emails. Okay? I mean, there's only so much I can read and get through. My Instagram gets flooded and stuff like that with stuff. Anytime something like this will come out, I'll get more emails.

And I don't mind. I want everyone to do it. I'm not saying don't do it. It's incredibly important for family members to know that there are people out there that actually give a shit. But it takes a lot of time and effort and energy. to get a case from, hey, I'm calling you from about my brother, my husband, my sister, my cousin, whatever it might be, to getting them a pro bono attorney and getting, you know, the likes of... We're almost halfway through the year, and a lot of people are running on empty without fully realizing it.

Grow therapy helps you find care that's covered by insurance before burnout becomes the baseline. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. They connect you with thousands of independent licensed therapists across the U.S., offering both virtual and in-person sessions nights and weekends. You can search by what matters like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost.

There are no subscriptions, no long-term commitments, you just pay per session. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow therapy is here to help. Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans, including Medicaid in some states. Sessions average about $21 with insurance, and some pay as little as $0, depending on their plan. Visit growth therapy.com slash book now to get started. That's growth therapy.com slash book now.

Growtherapy.com slash book now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan. Like a Kim Kardashian attached to it. Yeah, what advice would you give to someone that finds himself in your position where you're so passionate about something and you know this is in your heart what you're supposed to be doing, but you don't have that Kim Kardashian, you don't have that golden goose yet to bring you to the other side?

What would you tell that person? I would say that, you know, in this day and age, just as you know, we all have a microphone. some microphones are smaller than others. Kim's is a gigantic microphone, but we all have microphones in that you have the ability to tell the story to, you know, I always say if we could just rattle the cages, we just tell somebody, right? It's like, well, who do you tell, right? Find the people who are out there that can help you tell your story, whatever it might be.

So if you have a case of innocence or a case where, you. where, you know, you think that there has been some sort of wrongdoing at the hands of the criminal justice system that you want to out, you know, again, you can't unsee what you've already seen. And if you do, if you ignore it, then you're complicit and you're enabling it. Like, that's how I feel. So come forward. Social media is there to get in touch with people like you and me and advocates around this country that do the work.

There's a lot of organizations, Innocence Projects. you know, who are willing and able to listen and give you some good information with or without a celebrity on top, you know? Celebrities, you know, the other thing, and Kim knows, Kim and the majority of the celebrities that I work with or influencers that I work with, they know that that only takes you so far. There are certain places where you say, you know, a Kim Cardass. Oh, I'm partner with Kim Kardashian. And they sort of like, are you joking me?

Like I'm not. And listen, I know that Kim's amazing. I know that she's one of the smartest people I've ever met, that she's an unbelievable businesswoman and mogul and amazing mother and family member, right? I know all of this about her. But the reality is that she's got a, you know, people who like to talk crap, you know, and not believe in what the truth is behind who she is as a human being. And we also live in a toxic political climate right now where if you don't, if you say the wrong thing, people will cancel you or they don't like your politics and they don't want you around.

And I'll be honest with you, there's plenty of people I don't like their politics and I don't want to be around them either. So, you know, you just have to be careful and you have to really be thoughtful because treating a case in, let's say, New York or L.A. is much different than Florida. Florida or Texas or Oklahoma or, you know, where they have very different policies and thoughts and processes around like the death penalty or, you know, gun control or, you know, just things that, you know, are polarizing. And I think, to be careful. I think eventually that will change as more Kim's and more you and more of these types of influencers get older because then the people that are in now,

who are already getting ready to go past, you know, get out of office. I think the climate will change. Your mouth to God's ears. And I will say this, okay, and I firmly believe this because I've seen it with my own eyes. I am a very proud Gen Xer. I really am. I love my generation. But this generation, the generations below me, my I have an 18-year-old son and an 11-year-old daughter.

and because of the work I do and because of social media and because of influencers like you and the jimmies and everyone else in the world that really expose them to other the issues, the real issues that are facing young people today, they are now advocates. They are no longer sitting with their hands behind, you know, kind of like dreaming into space and playing video games, which they are, by the way,

especially my 11 year old. I don't have kids yet, so I don't know. Yeah, take your time. They're there a long time with you. But they are. My 11-year-old is a very proud supporter of what I do. She's a criminal justice reform advocate. She's already been to prison to visit one of my clients, I call them,

but I advocate for him. He's up in, the guy up in Salinas in California, Pierre Rushing, who's innocent of the crime that he's been convicted of. You know, it was funny, she said over Christmas break, everybody came back and said, who went on a cruise or who went to Greece or who went to New York? She's like, I went to prison, you know. But I think that that kind of exposure is necessary. And I think that for all the bad that social media is, there's some really great pieces of it,

like podcasting and things like that that exposes people to these stories. and I think these younger generations will change the world. And you're right, it will change, but it's going to take time because there's a lot of dinosaurs still lurking the earth. And that needs to, you know, they need to be sussed out before it change really happens. I mean, a perfect example is the media with prisons, either they're not allowed in or they only,

it's all scripted what actually goes on. So when you have social media of guys who have, say, a contraband cell phone showing how cooking's done or guys getting beat up or going live, or coming on a show like this, or they could talk where it's not edited and things are muted out and pieced together. You know, Remy Ma is My True Crime Story.

I love that. I have guests that come on all the time, and they're like, yeah, we gave this great, awesome interview, but it's all edited. So I had this woman that came on, her name's Jennifer Gomez, and she is a cat burglar, went to prison for 10 years. She was on My True Crime Story on MTV, and I put her on my show, didn't edit it,

it all, just put it on in our studio, and her story went super viral. Like one of the clips is at six million and all the New York Post picked it up. This was all last week. And the YouTube video, which looks like a documentary that tells her story in two hours, is almost at 200,000 views. And that gives a unvarnished look of her whole entire story in her own words. And you don't need a celebrity or the news to tell that properly. That's, no, you're exactly, right. And it's funny because what you're touching on is what's vitally important to all of the crime stories that we tell, right? There are nuances. There are pieces of the story that are just left out. And it could be for time purposes. They just edit it because they don't have enough time, right?

And it seems like to the editor or the producer, not very significant, right? But it could be. Here's an example. In the Pierre Russian case, the case I just spoke about the guy up in Salinas, he, when he, when he was, was originally questioned about a murder that he was not involved in, the police said to him, where were you on April 15th at 3.45 p.m.? It is today, what is it today? April 16th, right? Yes, today's a 16th. Let me ask you that question. Where were you on April 15th at 345? I have no idea. You don't remember. No, I don't remember off the top of my head. April 15th at that exact time. I was in this hotel. During what did you think about it? April 15, 345.

Is anything significant that happened? I think I was in the pool with Jimmy at 345. During the day? Yeah, well, April, that was Monday. Wait, no, I wasn't in the pool. What's today? Today's Tuesday. Yeah, today, so I was in the pool with Jimmy on Sunday.

So Monday. Maybe I was seeing, I was watching someone present. Right. Okay, good. Right? So Pierre Rushing, where were you on April 15th at 3.45 p.m. Two things popped into his mind when he was at, asked that question. Number one, he was like, because this was weeks later. And he said,

April 15th, that's tax day. That's my dad's birthday. Where was I? Well, I know in the morning I went and I got him a gift and I know I went, I probably went to his house. It's probably with my dad, right? Because they didn't say April 15th at 3.45 a.m. They said 3.45. And so in his mind, just like you, you went to the daytime. You don't think about 3.45 a.m. on April 15th, do you? Why? Because you're sleeping, usually. And if they would have said 3.45 a.m., his instinctive, he would have still probably went April 15th is my dad's birthday

and went backtrack and realized that he was in his grandmother's house where he was living in the basement sleeping with his girlfriend. That's what he would have said. But instead he said that, and that cop said you lied. That's not what your original. alibi was. And that piece of material never made it into all of the different storytelling of the Peeroy or Russian case. They just said that he lied on his first time of his alibi, right? And he didn't have an attorney present, I'm sure. Oh, no. Like there was no attorney present for,

you know, he, again, your, you know, context, right? This is a guy who is, by the way, a massive talent, amazing musician, rapper, had his whole life. in front of him and was about to do a string of shows before this all happened to him. In fact, when they finally tracked him down, he was on a way to a show, to a show, and he was pulled offstage in order to give a lie of his alibi, you know, according to police. But he also came from a very rough area of Oakland. The area that he grew up in was very difficult and drug-ridden. He definitely, you know, dealt drugs in his days. But again, that doesn't make. you are murderer. It just makes you part of the socioeconomic sort of environment that you were,

you know, born into, you know? And it's unfortunate because he didn't know better. He answered with his brute attitude that he still has today, which I love. I still call him my pain in the ass. He's a huge pain in the ass. And I say that because Pierre Rushing will never let anyone ever forget that he's innocent. And that's why he'll call me every single day to tell me of his in the sense, right? But that's what I mean by pain in the ass. I don't mean that he's wrong or he's lying or anything like that. But he's that guy. He was, he was completely willing to tell the police exactly where he was. It's like, you know, why are you trying to pin me as a murder? I didn't murder anybody. I'm going to tell you everything. And wouldn't you do that if they came up to you

and said, where were you on? I was here. I don't know what you're talking about. I'll help you do whatever you want. I'll give you any information until you realize that all the information you just gave them can be used against you in a court of law because you didn't call your attorney first. Yeah. And once they start talking to you, they already have their suspect in mind before without even having all the facts. And there are the blinders, right? Didn't we talk about that before? They know exactly what they want to do because they've already built a narrative. And if that narrative sort of changes, they're like, oh, can't do that. We've already spent way too much resources going after this. Let's prove this. And it's sad. And it happens to a lot of

people. But to your point, that's what makes these types of conversations so vital in our version of society today with the type of media that we can do with those microphones that we do because it's not about the media anymore. We can't trust what the media gives to us anymore. You know, it's sad and true. It's like, you know exactly what network to watch when you want your version of the world to be told to you. Yeah. You know, and that's, and I think now more than ever, just like you said, the younger generations understand that.

And I also think that it's fascinating too. We did this whole study. There was a study that came out, and I forget who did it. But it was fascinating. And they were asking, I think, college students, where they get the news from. And they said the only, and it came overwhelmingly. The only way that they consume their news is through, documentaries and podcasts.

Really? Because they were real. And probably TikTok is on that list somewhere. You know, they didn't say social media, which I thought too. I thought they were going to say, because I was afraid they would say, oh, I got it from TikTok or Instagram, you know, Instagram Reels or something, or YouTube. But no, it was documentaries and podcasts, which, you know, is fascinating for what you just said because we're uncut, we're able to say what we want to say.

It's, you know, kind of a no bullshit approach to fact, you know, to getting information out. But remember that in documentary, just like anything else, it can be skewed any way you want it to be. So you have to be careful in fact check. And it's also, I think a lot of it, when I saw when they produced my documentary, if the producer and the director thought that I was guilty, they would have spun it a different way. But they formed an opinion after meeting me and they shared a favorable side to my story. And that very well could have been flipped in a different direction. Happens all the time. And especially in reality TV, you say something and they'll cut it into a thousand different ways to make you say something else. And with AI, now it's all bets are off. Because I can, right? It's like I could take a sample of your voice, run it through a, you know, in AI. I can have you saying anything. And they're doing that with photos too.

Yes. Photos, videos, everything. It's so crazy. It's crazy. And you don't know what's real and it's really scary. So I think that, you know, even though we have these media, out there, I think it's really important to have, you know, have the integrity to ensure that what we're putting out there is truth and correct and, you know, and that our kids understand that that is kind of an onus to ensure that you're getting the real truth, you know, out there. So, yeah. Well, Lori, thank you so much for taking the time to sit with me. And it's been an excellent conversation. Yeah.

And we definitely got to keep in touch. Yes. Have you seen our YouTube page at all? I think you sent me a bunch of stuff at the, yeah, so I know I've seen your stuff. And of course, I mean, we're on the board. So I know that I, so check, definitely look at like what we've been putting out recently. I will. Maybe it strikes something with you. And I feel like I'm like an IP house, like, pumping out like these mini documentaries because we do three episodes a week. And it's just shot in like that documentary form. How are you doing three episodes a week?

I edit everything myself. So I do the production. I do the clips. I do the social media. And And in a year, you know, we have almost 300,000 subscribers on YouTube. Our audio does 300,000 downloads a month on Apple and Spotify. I do all the clips. And then now we have clients that we run their podcast like Brittany Furlawn Lee. I do her podcast. I do the mean girls. I do all these different things.

This is incredible. I'm so happy for you. Thank you. That's incredible. I'm just a hustler. You are a hustler. And you know what? It's great that you're able to do.

it all yourself. It really is. I think when I first was in media, I was doing a lot of like, I need to understand how to, you know, run the lights and do the edit and, you know, do my microphones and all this stuff. And I think what I've lost in my kind of trajectory of like now owning a production company is that I have a lot of people doing that for me. And I miss that sense of hustle. And, you know, it's great. I'm so happy that you guys have so much success. Yeah. And then we just learned how to take this all on the road, like before you would pay that. thousands to have someone. I mean, last year I had a video guy and now we just do this on our own. We're three carrying cases. We have a full setup. And honestly, I owe all my success to these

things right here, these mic boxes. Aren't they fun? Because when a clip goes viral on TikTok, I have almost 700,000 followers. So when it goes viral, everyone's searching for this. And it puts you in the leaderboards on Spotify and YouTube and everything because of this. Isn't it great? This is the secret. I know. I will never forget. I was doing Mardi Gras Live for the Travel Channel many years ago. And by the way, never do Marty Girl Live. It's not a live performance here, especially for TV. Is the Travel Channel even exists, so?

I think it's like more of a paranormal, isn't it? Like it's the last time I looked, Travel Channel was like a lot of like UFO shows and things like that. Not that I don't love them. I do. I like that kind of stuff too. But they don't really do travel anymore. But I remember like doing Marty Girl Live and they sent me my mic box.

you know, my ID boxes and, you know, for my mics. And it looks so official. Like I was so proud of them. And I think I still have them in my office. But you're right. People knew exactly who you were. And they would come up and be like, oh, my gosh, you know, on this, that. It makes a huge difference for branding, especially on, you know, the clutter of social

media pieces that you see over the course. You want people to, like, kind of find you. So, yeah, I get it. Yeah. Every time someone asked, like, how I grew the podcast so quickly, I just send them to this website. This is all you need. Yeah, it's $106 for both with shipping and you're good to go. And then you don't have to imprint like your logo on the TikTok videos or anything like that. It's already there. You just got those. Yeah. And by the way, they're great like walkaways for later.

Like when you're old, you can be like, look, kids. Look what I had. Yeah. We just rebranded like the logo and stuff. So I gave the old ones away to like listeners and whatnot. Ryan Reynolds here from MintMobil. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same premium wireless for 15 dollars a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities. So do like I did and have one of your assistance assistants assistants to switch you to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to do at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three month plan equivalent to $15 per month required. Intro rate first three months only, then full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. See full terms at mintmobile.com. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll keep getting new stuff. And if you're

ever in Connecticut area, you've got to see the studio. I would love to. I'm also, I'm sure you guys now, I'm doing a small documentary up there, starting in a few months that I can't talk about, but I will be up there. Oh, so come, we're in Richfield. Yeah. And I was, I live in Danbury, so it's right next to Richfield. Oh, so I think Dan, oh, I've been to Danbury.

Danbury has a prison, the federal prison, that orange is the new black space down. Yes, yes. But I was also, isn't there like a big spa? spa. Yeah, like hotel and spa, like the Danbury Inn or something. Oh, like the Ethan Allen. That's the furniture. No.

That's famous. Have you watched The Trashers documentary on Netflix? No. You got to watch that. That's about the mobster that bought his son the hockey team. We produce their podcast, too. Oh, I got to see that. That sounds awesome.

Yeah, you know the untold series on Netflix? Yeah, that was one of the episodes. Oh, cool. AJ Glante and Jimmy Galante. Netflix is doing like a scripted series with them. Oh, Galante. Yeah. Incredible.

documentary episode. I love all the untold series. They're so good. Like the one about the fake girlfriend and the Mateo story. Do you listen to Criminal? Do you listen to the criminal podcast? No, I know.

I always see it on the top charts, though. So there's something about, and I'll let you go. Probably because I just like to hear my own voice in my own head. But the woman who is the voice of that. is the host of that podcast. Her name is Phoebe. And she has the most meditative voice I've ever heard, like literally, like meditative. She's like, hi, it's Phoebe. It's like this really like ghostly. And she comes, I think, out of University of North Carolina, UNC or something like that. But she can tell a

crime story. And it's really not a crime story. It's stories about criminals. People with criminal behavior. and how they made the choice to do that wrong thing. Like, it's that moment where, you know, you become a bookie or you become, you know, you've killed somebody or you've set someone on fire unknowingly. Like this crazy shit the human condition can do. But she has a way of talking about it that really brings up. And it's, again, this meditative feel of her voice. And I think that those, like, again, it's like this untold series that you're talking about.

It's almost like a, it's this anthology of amazing stories that you can take and blow out into documentaries because they're so. In fact, how weird is this? That is where I found the woman's story. Her story, the woman for murder she solved, I found that story through criminal. Oh, really? And that's what led me to Kevin Keith. Is there guests on criminal or no? It's all solo, just the host talking about it.

It's the, yeah, it's a documentary. series. She does do field pieces where there is a little bit of, you know, conversation happening, but it's not like this, like more of a, you know, it's more of a bite-driven sort of storytelling approach. But, but yes. And that story is the, if you know it, it's a great crime story. It's called, I'm trying to remember the killer's name, Earl Man, Earl Man. And it was the story of so the woman that I was telling you about the one that solved the own crime the own crime it was her mother that gets brutally murdered and her husband is the one they go after and convict for the crime and she knows for a fact it wasn't her husband because she was with him and they didn't believe her because

she was this lowly housewife out of ohio that didn't have you know she was had her gED they were like yeah you're covering for her husband but she's like but this is my mother if i thought that my husband killed my mother. I would ship him off my, I would kill him myself, right? And she's like, it couldn't have been him. So she took it upon herself after her husband had been convicted,

forgot his name, lovely human, to find the real killer. And what she did is she made a list of suspects in her area, imagine, and went out on dates with them. Wow. And she finally, and she would collect

things like their hair or a cigarette butt or whatever to try to get DNA because there was DNA in her mother's case. And finally, a cigarette butt is what found the real killer. Wow. And linked a killer to her mother's crime and set her now ex-husband free. But what's even more incredible about her story is that she is one of the Hicks babies. Do you know that story? No, I don't. There's a guy back in Ohio in, I would say, the 1950. or 60s, who, when women would get pregnant and couldn't keep the baby, he would take them in and basically say, you have a safe place to get birth to your child so there's no abortion. And they would, you know, have the baby and then he would sell the babies to, you know, or not,

you know, to put them up for adoption in so that these kids could be okay. And I forget, I forget how it happened, but he was either raping these women or whatever, but the majority of the babies are his. Wow. And so she's one of them. She was one of like what they call the Hicks baby, who I think was sold. But it's an incredible story. And she was the one who found her mother's killer.

Yeah. Because it was adopted, it was an adopted mother. That documentary that just came out on Netflix about the girl that, um, um, um, her and her boyfriend were, they said that they faked the, the kidnapping or whatever. Did you see that one? American, American murder or whatever it was. Yeah, that was insane. That was crazy.

She was just on, call her daddy. Oh, she was? Yeah, I think two weeks ago. That, I watched that and the whole time I thought she was, they were guilty. And then when they catch the guy at the end, and her whole life was upended. It's good that I know they settled and they got money. Yeah, it was like American tragedy or something like that. Yeah, it was something like that.

But I remember her like being dropped off at the end of her street and like walking home and they thought it was all like a complete forest. I mean, when you look at the tape of her, that looks like so fake and because she looks fine. Yeah, she looks fine. Yeah, so that's the part where the media really spun it out of control. And it almost looks like it was taken out of context. Like that wasn't the time she got dropped off. Yeah.

And the other thing that I found fascinating with that documentary that I'm going to steal from my own documentaries, because it's a great tool. Remember when she's in the recreation of her in the trunk and you actually are seeing it through the goggles? This isn't where they put the goggles on her eyes. And you could actually see her eye movement. That's where they put camera and you can see eye movement of her like freaking out. Oh. Oh, it's one of that, like, it's terrifying.

It was such a great, it was such a great device to you. It must be so cool to work in the space and always just like get new ideas and then bounce it around and stuff. Oh, well, yeah, I mean, it's any time I see any of a true crime documentary, I always try to look at how they do the recreations. Because what you're trying to convey to your audience in those moments is, you know, the fear, right? or the anticipation of a kill, you know, it's that, again, it's a human condition. And how do you bring people in and make them feel what was happening in that moment, in a recreation, and being stylistic, not overly, you know, sort of unsympathetic to what you're about to see?

But I think people have really have some really amazingly, you know, kind of fun ideas to do it. And when I use fun, I use it in the worst possible way. Because seeing eye movement in an actor in the back of a car, because that's what it is. It's all acting, right? But to see that fear, it really, like, it really puts you in a dark space of clearly being in a confined area and not knowing what's about to happen. It's really frightening. And to do it in a recreation was genius.

It was really well done. Well, we just went down a whole rabbit hole. Yeah, I did. We should have ended this podcast like a week ago. Yeah, like a half hour ago. But Lori, thank you again. And safe travels back to California. Thank you.

To California. Yeah, please let me know when you're back.