Locked In with Ian Bick - Master Con Artist Exposes His Greatest Scams: How He Masterminded Unbelievable Frauds | Barry Minkow

Episode Date: June 13, 2024

Discover the mind-blowing secrets of a master con artist as he reveals his most daring and infamous scams. From intricate frauds to unbelievable cons, get an exclusive behind-the-scenes look at how he pulled off his greatest schemes. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Barry Minkow: https://linktr.ee/barryminkow Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:06:43 - Suffering Consequences 00:13:53 - The Propensity to Sink their Own Ship 00:21:01 - The Consequences of Lying 00:27:55 - "The Psychology Behind Our Decisions" 00:34:50 - The Scotch Guard Incident 00:41:24 - Check Kiting and Exploiting the Float 00:47:48 - The Meeting Payroll Mentality 00:54:39 - Uncovering Frauds and Devastating Consequences 01:01:42 - The Mob and Fraud Charges 01:08:09 - The SEC and Insider Trading 01:14:38 - Life after Prison and Paying Restitution 01:21:19 - Betrayal and Rebuilding Relationships 01:28:16 - Reflecting on Past Mistakes and Seeking Forgiveness 01:36:20 - Building Relationships through Helping 01:43:31 - Leaving a Lasting Legacy 01:50:34 - Lockdown in Terminal Island Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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So, 25797, I'd get an approval. That next, I'd bring it to the bank that day. The next day was clear funds. It took 60 days. Remember, today you would know tonight if somebody charged your credit card. Get an alert on your phone. Absolutely. It's not even tonight.

I'd know right this second. They didn't have no phone. They didn't have an alert. And everybody exploited the float time in kiting, every crook. And I'm not proud of it. and master charge of visa. And then the third was payroll taxes. What's up, guys, and welcome back to your favorite podcast, Locked in with Ian Bick. On today's episode, we have one of the original Fraud Kings of America before there was a Wolf of Wall Street,

before there was Bernie Madoff, before there was any of these hit, you know, fraud stories that everyone's fascinated about. There was Barry Minko. Barry has had books written about him, feature films done on him. And he started at such a young age in fraudulent businesses. It makes his story so fascinating and interesting. And I'm super excited to share it with you guys today. Thank you, as always, for the love and support. And I hope you sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with Barry Minko. Barry, I'm so excited for you to be here. And I'll tell you why. Tell me. Because when I got out of prison, my uncle, James Forrester, he's a medical doctor, a cardiologist.

He's written books and whatnot. Angry past carpet cleaning client or something? No, this gets better. Wait until you see this or hear this. And his son is a writer for the office. And they're a very successful family. And I get out of prison. And in the mail for me is a book.

And that book is your book. And he leaves me a note. And he says, you have to read this. this. And he goes on. He writes, like, I got to find the original email that he sent, well, along with the note. And it was just talk about how I should read this book and all of this. And this was your book. What year are we talking? This is 2019 when I got out. So a few years ago. And I got out in 18. You got out now in 18. But this book came out. It's a long story. Yeah. And we'll hear about that. But so I have this book. It is entitled,

Oops, I did it again. No, it's your first book. Got it. The carpet. Yeah, the cleaning one. That's in my office. It's been there. Yeah, I don't. Yeah. But.

My mom's got a million copies in the garage. What I'm fascinated is, is that life came full circle. And now here I am sitting with you. So when I saw the email come in that you wanted to come on the show, I was like, holy shit. We got to get this guy booked because I have his book. You should have brought the doctor. We could have done all of us here. So why did you give him that?

It's fascinating how life works, though. You know, who would have thought? Oh, man. That book. that came out in 2005, 2006, when I went back to Lexington for insider trading, and then later tax fraud and commingling funds and embezzlement all that, I got no small ridicule from the guys, you know, you know how they are.

And Lexington, they were like, well, my mom always wanted me to be like you, and here we are. It was rough. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, and you're one of those individuals that that was a time. period before social media. Yes.

Like you and I compare it to like Wolf of Wall Street because there was no, the people that are coming out of prison now like the Matt Cox has said, there's this whole world of social media content. Yeah. But whereas you guys didn't have that. So yeah, the second bit was I was out for 16 years in between. So technically the feds, I was a first time offender twice. Because if you're out 15, it clears your record.

Oh, it's 15. I thought it was 20. No, that's 15. Oh, good to know. So yeah, well, don't even, I don't recommend it. Well, anyway, definitely not. So when I got out, I was the second time I went in, 2011 and got out December 2018, and all the social media was there.

You know, that's a big seven and a half year gap. Not so much entering come out and it's everywhere. So but, and you had that same thing, but you went in a lot, a lot sooner, I mean a lot later, so you probably already knew going in about the social media. Whether you did or not is irrelevant, because you've certainly performed. affected it at this point. Well, thank you. I actually waited four years.

This was never my plan. I had a career at Whole Foods. Yes, I saw your, yes, yes. That was my career. That was my life. And I thought that was my purpose. And you don't have an ounce of fat on you. So it's where are the Whole Foods?

I looked in that fridge where's the Whole Foods? Yeah, no, that was what I did. And I was very focused on my story, like selling it. I wanted to become a movie. Like, that was my mission, you know? I wanted to be like the next Wolf of Wall Street, or you had a movie done about you, too. I was looking at the trailer earlier. I got to hear what you think about that later.

But yeah, and then I just started this a year ago, a year and a half ago now. And it just all started with TikToks in my car. And listen, on the record, I'm a huge fan because I really think that one of the most underreported topics is the incredible success stories of men, not me, that come out of prison and women, that have transformed their lives, that have learned their lesson the first time, not like me being a repeat offender, but sometimes they're sole learners, and after two times, they do do well. And Lord Willie, I stay on that path. But it's just amazing to me how you, it's trite to say, well, just use that.

as a drug dealer and become a market? No, it's much more complicated than that. And you have much more to overcome. So it takes tenacity, perseverance, consistency, and all those things that the perseverance that really you could learn in prison if you wanted to and plan and execute. And a lot of guys fail jail. They make all these wonderful plans. And I was just talking to Damien Law, who's a pastor in Oakland, African-American guy,

one of my mentors, dear friends in Atwater, three and a half years. years, four years. Talk all the time. He has, love him. And we were talking about the men who made promises about their health and nutrition, about their faith, about what they would do. And then they left, and it was just over. And we're like, were you lying then? Or what was the reason? So, but some, but many just execute. And it's underreported. Now, when you failed twice, like I was out for 16 years and when I went back, so I was like the OJ of 88 because there was no social media, but they stopped programming when my indictment came down on that Thursday night in January 14th, 1988. I mean, I was 21. Interesting. My 21st birthday in, I had a 5,000

square foot house in Westchester County Estates in Woodland Hills. Wow. Heather Locklear and Tommy Lee lived down the street. I think I actually did their carpets once or twice. Remember, this is 88. They were together at that time. Scott Bale was a good friend. He came to my 21st birthday. He was an old Happy Day Star, and we had been friends since childhood. And I remember on my 21st birthday,

an article came out in USA Today. Barry Minko, happy birthday, your stock is worth over $100 million, and ZBest's totally $300 million. So it's at the top. And little did I know by July that year I'd be bankrupt. But at the time, March 22nd, 1987, I go into my house and places packed and it dawned on me that every room I went to,

somebody was directly or indirectly being paid to like me. Not that overt, but, you know, one room, the auditors and the lawyers that, well, their fees are six figures a year. My PR firm while they're getting paid. My best friend, I had just given them some Z-Best stock. and I think he sold it before the crash. But still, at the time it was a huge value. At the time, we went from, you know, three shares in a warrant at 12 to 80,

so $4 for the common to 18 a share at the time at its height. And then the mobsters were there but undercover kind of thing. And well, I know why they were there protecting their interest. And I got a Z on the bottom of my pool because the company was Z best. and I had a gal at the time, and she was great, so really didn't think either way about that, so wouldn't throw her on her to bus. Probably was the standout in that regard,

but everybody was on the payroll. And indirectly, and I'm like, is there anybody here that really, really, you know, likes me just because me, and my mom came in the room, and she passed away last year when I was in prison. And we were in the kitchen and all kinds of noise, everything outside and, you know, some movie stars, people there. And she said, you know, son, I'm proud of you and all you've accomplished. But I think you need God.

And I said, God, how much is he? I'll buy them. And that was a clip from the movie, too. And I remember that in 21, 21 because you would ask about that. But that was an eye-opening time because who really likes you? You know, you climb that ladder to the top because you hear. And when you get there, you find out that's leaning against the wrong wall. And it's like who you had to step on to get there and lie to.

And then, you know, you know who you are when nobody's looking. So it was a devastating experience, but self-inflicted. And I can't speak for everybody who's been in federal prison. But, Ian, when I look back in my life, every regardless of, regretful thing I've ever suffered the consequence of went to prison for hopelessly regret is a self-inflicted wound. I can't blame anyone. I would love to. But when it really came down to it, the steroids as a young man.

You are on steroids. Oh, yeah. Ian's looking at me and said, that's a lie. Look at you, dude. Without my shirt on. I got a little... Anyway, I was lifting weights in Lexington on the Yardian. Come on, man.

You were lifting weights? Oh, yeah. So, no, I'd lift the weights my whole life. So the... But the shortcut was steroids. And I remember 16, 17, 18, in the gym. I was cleaning the showers because we were broke, growing up. Great parents, just not financially successful, but wonderful parents.

And I was cleaning the showers at Valley Gym. Human Health Club and Reseda just to get a membership. And everybody saw me do it, just loved me. They thought it was the greatest thing. I'm like, I'm doing this because I want to work out. And the owner was super cool. He said, yeah, I want you here, but clean the showers. And I did.

So the steroid abuse was a shortcut and devastating consequences. But at the time, I could bench X and I looked like whatever. And I remember people saying, you know, when you're 40, you'll die. I'm like, okay, I was 16, 70, you don't think about that. So, self-inflicted wound. The immediate gratification short-cut approach in business, self-inflicted wound. So when I look at my life and I look at my generation of men my age, I think that transformation can't really occur until you realize that,

that what was it C.S. Lewis said, he said, when a captain goes out to sea, he's got to ask himself three questions. What am I doing out here in the first place? How do I keep from sinking? And how do I keep from running into other ships? Now, with Lewis, it was just an analogy. And he's like, well, how do I keep from running into other ships? That's getting along with other people. What am I doing out here in the first place? Your purpose in life. But the one that got me was, how do you keep from sinking? Self-inflicted wounds. and I look at men like us and you learn the first time and look how terrific you're doing now. Me, slow learner, suffered devastating consequences and hurt a congregation, a family, just devastating consequences. But there are people who have the propensity to sink their own ship, what Lewis was referring to. How do you keep from sinking?

And me, it wasn't external forces or great child. I have wonderful sisters. The church I was at, absolutely phenomenal leadership. Everyone loved me, gave me, you know, embraced me. But it was those self-inflicted wounds, selfishness, shortcuts, greed, immediate gratification. So I speak to those who are my people, those ship sinkers who just can't stay off drugs or out of prison, who fail over and over again. and I say, if there is hope for me, how much more for you, and you are my people? I don't speak to the people who just are, they don't, quote, have needs like the,

I'm for the guy or gal that just has the propensity to sink their own ship in poor decision-making because that's where I live. And that's my story in a nutshell. And then it backs into the Z-best, and it works out in. to pastoring a church and doing the fraud uncovering. But I think you can relate. I mean, the worst decision, if somebody to ask you, what was the worst decision you ever made in your life?

You would say what? I would say it was the first lie I told when I lost, because I was successful in the concert business, which I'm sure you were successful in your own way and when you started out. We won't go there. Not at all. Let's stick with you were.

Okay, well, I experienced that success in the beginning. and when I started trusting other people and gotten over in my head, there was still an opportunity to just say, hey, this lost money, but instead I chose the path of, because I didn't want people to not like me, and I didn't want my friends to know that I had lost their money. And had I said that and just told them the truth?

You would have cut your lot. Well, we wouldn't be here right now. No, but that's my story. Like when I couldn't meet payroll at 16, I haven't talked much about this, But you got to remember, and excuse me, I'm not sick, so nobody, just the dry cough won't go away. When I was 16, it's 1982. I started Z-Best out of my garage.

And tell people what it is Z-Best. So it was a carpet furniture and drapery cleaning company, and I had worked at same-day carpet care when I was 13 in the summers. My mom was a telephone solicitor. So I got in to be on weekends and summers telemarketer. then I helped as a carpet cleaner. So I learned the industry inside it out. At the time I'm 16, I go out of business because some bookie, who I looked up to, had a wad of cash, said, I'll give you $1,600 a week interest only, start your own gig.

And I'm like 16. I'm in 11th grade. I have a crush on a cheerleader. What color hair do you have? Blonde. That's right. And I had a 1972 Buick, which you heard before it arrived. It was no, in carpet cleaning the equipment.

In the backseat, it was ugly. It was ugly. And nobody was going out with me, and I wasn't the star football player. And, you know, your nose is 50% of your body. It's bad. But I was on steroids, so I looked okay, sort of. So I needed money. And I said, all right, I'm going to start this company, get enough money, get a truck, or, you know,

Azuzu. Joe Azuzu was a big commercial on. Get on a Zuzu truck. She'll go out with me. So all that to have, again, get a date. And sadly, I quickly realize, now, I hire my mom, take out a picnic table in the garage in recita. I think I was the only, we were the only Jewish family in recita. Everybody else was Encino and Tarzana and Woodland else. We were in receded. Dad was great. Mom was great.

We weren't set in the world on fire financially. My dad was a commercial real estate broker when interest rates in 1980 were like 18%. So not great. But came to all my football games, played baseball in the middle of the street with all the kids. Great dad. So I spread out the picnic table, hire my mom, and she, believe me, I had to pay my mom. And Vera, the two best solicitors in all of carpet cleaning. If there was a Hall of Fame, Ian, for carpet.

Hi, Mrs. Jones. This is Vera from Z-Best carpet cleaning. We're going to be in your area, wherever the hell that was. And we have a special living room, dining room hall, three bedrooms, 59.95. And we move all the furniture, protective blocks and pads under the furniture. We're licensed, bonded, and insured. We can get there between 8 and 10, 10, 12, 12, and 2.

You just pick. We'll be there. It'll be great. And, you know, remember, you know, we're right in the area. So whatever the sale pitch was, and they would book these appointments. Now, I was in school. I was in 11th grade. So I had to hire, and the commission structure was whoever, the crew got 40%, you was the company with the lead and the insurance, 60, but I did 45, 55.

And then on weekends, I tried to make it up, right? I try to do as many jobs like that because that's 100% profit. So I quickly fell behind. And but as I was doing early on, I disguised my voice as a parent and called CBS Lawyer. local news and said, I just had some young 16-year-old come and clean my car, but I think you need to tell this story. So I pretexted and later would get me in all kinds of. And I pretended to be a satisfied female or male adult in Recita or Northridge or Chathworth. I just had the Z-best, and you're not going to believe this.

The owner was sick. I wish my son, Ethan, marijuana. So 10 minutes after I hung up, you know his phone number? Yeah, it's right here on his card. Ten minutes later, it rang. And I'm like, I better get my voice right. It worked. Dude, I did that with every news station.

So I go to school. Remember, there's no cable. There's no social. Forget about social media. There wasn't. No cell phones. No cell phones. No CNN.

No Fox. No MSNBC. None of that. So if you're on the local 247 ABC, NBC, NBC, CBS, and then the KT, whatever, you were like, you captured 60, 70 percent of the watching audience. So that wasn't fragmented like it is today. So people, hey, you're a genius. Meanwhile, I'm bouncing checks. I can't keep a checking account open because I'm not legally 18 to sign on a checking account.

So the local liquor store that I grew up going to my entire life had a check cashing place and the guy loved me and he let me bring my ZBass customer checks and he converted them to money orders so I could pay my people and my bills and I was short and I took a money order from the bottom to meet pay. It was all bad. So that was the truth. And I could have said to your point, you know what? I gave it a shot. I tried. I'll revisit this thing when I have time to deal with it. better financing options.

But the thought of publicly failing, so the made-off movie, there was like 100 of them, but one of them was quite good for one reason. Early on, it talked about like 63. He lost like 20 grand or 30 grand. He couldn't pay it. His father-in-law bailed him out. And he had an option to say,

hey, I failed. so you could be a failure or a liar. And I never forgot that when I saw that because it was me. So Madoff chose to be a liar. And when you'd make that choice, you're going to get failure. That's just where that thing ends up. You place your feet on the road of lying. That thing has one ultimate destination, prison or destruction or bankruptcy,

or all of the above. The irony is when you choose lying, you're going to get failure. anyway, it just doesn't happen immediately. And you think you're okay. So I chose liar instead of exactly what you said. You know what? Don't want to disappoint my fans. Hey, Diner's Club, Ian sent me a credit card.

And I noticed in 82 October. And I took everybody at a Victoria Station and Charlie Browns. And that was Northridge restaurants at the time, Jeremiah's steakhouse, all in the Valley all in the early 80s and the cool people that never would kind of include me when I was buying I was in and I made that connection very quickly publicity plus money equals acceptance and I'm never letting that go. I feel like there's two types of fraud. There's, you know, the ones that set out to intentionally do it and the ones that fall into

it because they made a mistake and they're facing that position and that's when it, you know, goes south. Okay, so here's the question. I used to be you and I do a little work for law enforcement over here. And I, and whenever I spoke or something in you have a thriving speaking career, by the way. He'll be in Nashville, folks. Maybe you can announce the date and I'm going to carry his bag. The thing, the theory used to be no doctor, lawyer, or accountant ever planned on ending up in federal prison.

no entrepreneur that I ever met. How about you? Planned. Like they went to law school. They passed the New York, California bar and said, well, going to prison. No, never. Medical school. How many doctors with the prescriptions and the overbillings?

Four years college. Four years medical school. Two years residency. Eight figures of student loans. Well, time to go to federal. Never. It's never in the plan. CPA exam, the tax?

luck in Cali or New York Pass and that thing. It's brutal. Audit may be tax prison. Now look at how many doctors, lawyers, just Google it, CPAs are in prison. To your point, it was never in the plan. And then, and I was always, me, do you think I planned when I'm sitting in that guys getting that 1600 to end up with the mafia, two families, destroy people's lives even when the second bit, going to seminary, getting two master's degrees, to end up in federal prison again? No, it's never the plan.

It's like the guy in prison you met. You would pass a polygraph. All of them would. If you would have sat there and said, will you ever repeat offend again? Nope. If they polygraphed all of us in Lexington or wherever you serve the most majority of your time

and said, when you get out, will you reoffend? We would all pass. At that time, we meant it. And then, circumstances, can't meet payroll, economic pressure. We reverted, I reverted. Let me use the proper pronoun of responsibility, R-DAP, right?

I re-remen. So my point would be COVID hit. And no, it wasn't just one law enforcement official who called me and said, see, you were wrong. No, it could be both and it's not either or. And what they meant is, who is trying to meet payroll there, Barry? what doctor was trying to pay off his student loan and got to, meaning their point was people are just flat out greedy

and they don't need a reason to steal. I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. And then COVID hit and changed the entire paradigm because you had people for no other reason than everybody else is doing it. The government put me in this situation. I'm going to pay it back. It's going to be okay. Whatever the rationale was, there was no economic pressure.

There was no reason for it. it. Look at the use of proceeds. Ferrari's cars. You had people who didn't even have businesses lying. And Ian, I had no answer other than, well, I mean, as a believer in my faith as a Christian, we have a sin nature. We're propensity for evil. I mean, my life's a example of that. But the criminal white collar, I was like you. Nobody ever plans on it. And then COVID ruined the paradigm because there were too many cases for me to say, aberration. I had to say, you know what, you're right. There is a set of circumstances that would cause people to loot during a disaster that normally wouldn't loot.

They didn't wake up saying, I'm going to loot today. You know what I'm saying? I don't know how many people woke up and said, well, COVID frauds today. I think it was a slow kind of, well, we're stuck inside. Everybody's doing it. Broke sucks. They got this money. It's for us.

I don't know what the rationale was, but too many did it who didn't. to have economic pressure. And that shattered the paradigm of white, for me. So I had to say, you're right, but it's still both in. Doesn't mean you're wrong. It just means we

can't be that, you know, normally and regularly, more often than not, those who perpetrate or promulgate white color crime face economic pressure. That, true, however, a big asterisk, COVID kind of was brutal.

Yeah, well, then you have the opportunity aspect of it where it presented itself with new opportunities, like the PPP loans, it became more accessible. Individuals to fall into these patterns and behaviors as well. So, but still a required initiative on the part of the perpetrator because it's like, right, what's the defense? Your Honor, that damn government tempted me. No, God, I had to take that money. Right. Of course that. No, I just think it's a mixture of like the pressure. There's some, there's always some sort of like pressure or point. And then there's the opportunity aspect. And when you combine those together, that's a key component. Who's the pressure point in the COVID? Believe me, Ian, I needed you as an advocate because I was getting hammered at this conference I did for securities regulators. And they're like, yeah, we heard you on record. I'm like, look. No, I would say that the pressure is, it could be a peer pressure.

That's true. That's true. They're not, listen, law enforcement cynical anyway. Yeah, and you're not using it as an excuse. It's just when you look at the psychology behind it, why we do certain things. Like I look at my story and I made my decisions based on economical pressure and social pressure. And social. Me too.

Mine was both, but I really connect with you on that point. I remember hearing that in your story that that's what I have in common with you is that you don't want to disappoint your friends. and I love the attention because people will do for applause what they'll never do for money. Yeah. So what do you think was the biggest flaw

of your carpet cleaning business? Because you clearly had that hustler mentality like you said you were cleaning bathrooms and showers just to get to be. Yeah. So you had that in you, just like I had that in me. So we were joking before,

we were joking before camera about how much time, energy and effort it takes to perpetrate white-collar crime. I really believe I remember an IRS criminal CID. Name was Paul Davis. He passed away in a tragic airplane incident like 10 years ago. But I really liked this guy because he was straight up. It was 1988.

He said, walked up to me and he goes 40 months, 30 banks, $112 million. And I know where everything went. And it was impressive because that's how length of time kiting checks. He wasn't saying you stole that money. In fact, the government said there's no missing money at all in the ZBEST case. That's how I got out in a third under the old law. But he goes, if you would have just spent the time, energy, and effort,

you put into creating 22,000 documents to fool the auditors. Now, today you can just do a Reg D real estate private equity deal and you don't have to fool any auditors because you don't even need to prove independent proof of profitability. You don't even need audited financials. But back of the day, when you wanted to go public on Wall Street with an S-1 registration statement, I used to joke with Sammy Antar, who I always have loved and respected. He never spoke to me again after I reoffended. He was totally dismayed.

He's right. Can't say him. Great guy. Brilliant off-the-chart. CFO of Crazy DeAantar. We used to joke about the money we spent to, tried to fool the auditors, hundreds of thousands of dollars, and created 22,000 documents. Now, we got three clean audit opinions.

That's what you needed to file an S-1 registration statement, which just means you're public for real. You have an underwriter. Your stock's free trading with a liquid market. You could borrow against it. It was marginal. It wasn't a penny stock. We started off when I was 19 as a penny stock, and then we backed into the real thing.

So 22,000 documents. And back then, 82, 83, right? It's all Whiteout. So for those in the audience who are young like, well, you, white out was like copy machines and whiteout could change a bank statement. Today they have software and PDFs. Not so. We were so proficient.

And it was not just me. It was me. And the team I directed my right-hand man and his mom and sister were just so proficient at creating bank statements that was. tie into earnings that would tie into a general ledger that would tie into a trial balance and then a financial statement. And I remember when I got sentenced and I don't know what your conditions for probation were, but mine were three years probation and I wasn't allowed within 20 feet of a bottle of white out for like three years. Wait, they really said that?

No, I'm kidding. But that's how proficient we were. So the point was all that energy, time and effort spent on fooling the auditors focused in a legitimate business. Who knows? I'll never know. But I do know that given the – Ian, I really wanted to do what was right, but I was prepared to do what was wrong. But, Barry, you had a business model. That's what I'm confused about.

Like this carpet – what you were pitching, is that not profitable, the $60. Carpet cleaning? It's a service business. So let me tell you how warped it was. Yeah, give us the breakdown of it. So is the carpet cleaning business profitable? It can be high competition, easy entry. But here's the problem.

And you're always going to need them. But when I was 14 years old, I was a helper. And it was a summer. My boss was, I was a carpet cleaning. help her so I would go out with Joel who's the best salesman. So the trick in the carpet cleaning business is to upsell. So anybody can clean a carpet. But so we had finished the job, Mission Hills, living room, dining room, hall, three bedrooms, a den, something like that. And then Joel says, and the carpets were look great because they were still wet. So they look great.

And Joel says, look to the lady, you know, your third largest investment, your house, your car, in your carpets. And I'm like, I got to write that down. That's a good one. That's a good one. How's car car car car? So, he said, and to protect your third largest investment, I'd like to put some scotch card. We charged by the square footage.

We only do it in the traffic areas, not under Ian's chair. Nobody's walking under there. No traffic. But you have pets. Now, he didn't know if they had pets or not, but it was an 80% chance. Whenever you went like this, you got pets, that means I could sell you a deodorizer, right? because, and no, oh, sorry, that must be me. You know, most of the time you walk in, it's a cat or a dog, right?

So you, even if you don't see him, if you smell like that, you're creating, oh, my God, is it that bad to the lady? Yeah, but we got the remedy. Deodorizer. It's only $25 extra. You know what I mean? So that was part of the sales tricks. So in this particular instance, he, she said, all right, just in the traffic areas, how much?

And he's like $120. This is 1980, two years before I started, plus or minus. So that was my call. Once she said, okay, go into the truck. We had a Hudson sprayer, pump it up. Remember those things? And you spray like an old, you know, Terminx guy. But it was Scotch Garden, and then you rake it in.

Done it many times. Go in the truck, I forgot to pack the Scotch Guardian. So I'm thinking, I just blew $120 sale. So I go in the cab and start crying. I'm 14. Joel knows the cadence. I'm not there. He comes out in the truck.

What's the matter with you? What happened? You're crying? I forgot the Scotch guard at the office. I'm so. He said, is that why you're crying? Is that why you're crying? I said, yeah.

And he opened the corridor. He knelt down and looked at me in the eye. And he said, listen to me, Barry. Fill that thing up with water. little bubble gum deodorizer and get your and spray it, she'll, she'll never know the difference. So I'm 14. I'm spraying another. She goes, man, that scotch card smells good.

I'm like, yeah. I raked it in, we left, we got paid. The minute I got back to the office, I'm like, any phone calls? Phone calls. I was sure like CSI carpet analyst call Madge was saying, we know what you did, Minko. it was never happened. So when I started Z-Best, I learned that you had a high profit margin when you sold Scotch card that you didn't ever purchase.

So entrenched in me, not blaming Joel, my choice, these shortcuts and these habits. You know, when the gates open from prison, we don't magically come out and transform. Well, I get out, I'm going to do this. what I learned between the first and the second time is there's significant steps. I'm sure that you went through. I know you went through. While you're in, you didn't feel jail. And what I tried to do, and for me, it wasn't, I went the education route the first time,

got a master's, then got out of prison, got another master's, thought, hey, educate. But it was my absolute relational void of, Who really knew me? And my fear that if they did, they'd run like hell. So it wasn't until Lexington and then Atwater, where I met, you know, Pastor Whitfield from, you know, he's a pastor in Blexey, Mississippi right now, but he was a judge in prison in Lexington. He was like a mentor to me and other just incredible men there and then atwater where I finally was able to say, you know, the truth about me is I'm a really deceptive human being. And the guy I'm saying that to is wearing green or tan and not tripping and saying, and he's saying, yep.

And for me, I can't stop selling that dope because it's easy money and I just can't stand the thought of listening to some dude tell me what to do. We all just were, it was true transparency. I think men today are the loneliest they've ever been. There is no one in their life that they could look in and say, you know something? I'm really a manipulative liar with an angle. And it's in me. And I need help.

And I just, I had that call with Damien three days ago. I never had that. Now, by the way, in defense of the people that were close to me at the church, they would have had those conversations. But when you're the pastor, don't want to say, yeah, I'm struggling with porn, because then they're looking at your preaching like, ew.

You know what I'm saying? You can't, even though they would have been wonderful or when I was addicted to Oxycontin telling somebody, hey, I'm struggling. They would have loved me. They wouldn't even fired me. But I never gave them the chance because image management still in me. When I got to prison the second time and the public humiliation of it, you know, even though 16 years had passed and I had uncovered all this fraud and you can have some mitigating factors,

but, you know, betrayed a church, betrayed the people of the church, committed for felonies a day. Ian, I was, the mail is, you know, I always teach accountants, find out who's got the mail. They're like, what? I said, oh, yeah. One thing you still can't do in today's technology is that stupid mail. So if you have an undisclosed loan relationship with a bank that you're showing his income because you're trying to fool the auditors, that loan statement's got to be mailed. That stupid bank, you know, it does it automatically.

FDI, boom. Well, you've got to get that mail before the lady at the front desk does or pay her somehow without her getting suspicious that you need the mail for whatever reason. I would literally sit across street for hours in a parking lot overlooking the church that I was pastoring, waiting for the mailman. Thinking in my car, this ain't going to end well. How do I end up here again? I'm thinking this while I'm waiting across just hiding out. In the church I pastor, because I got to sift through the mail and make sure that they don't find about undisclosed loan relationships. So committing four felonies a day or whatever the heck it was and being able to go to prison the second time.

And you're not fool anybody. So did you have any legitimate customers in the carpet claim? Oh, yeah, we did. We did. Yeah. So frauds the skin of the true stuff with the lie. That's how we define it. we had 23 locations, 1,200 employees, and our own chemical manufacturing facility.

That was all legal. And could that support the employees or no? I'll never know because of the hopelessly overencumbered mafia debt, loan shark debt, undisclosed debt, all these related party transactions that nobody knew about that I disguised as income, but they were really debt and I had to pay it. How did you get into that hole to begin with that? just from that one loan shark and you realize you need to borrow from another shady figure to pay him? And then I was under the impression that if I open more retail offices, that I generate more cash loan, that would solve the problem. And it did, but it also increased the expenses.

So, yeah, learning the hard way. But the other thing is you can't properly finance a service company, carpet cleaning company when you're 17 or 18 banks aren't throwing money at you. It's like you figured out check hiding. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. They had floats back then. People don't understand that.

It's a different time. I got to experience it a little bit before they really cracked down. Tell me, I got to hear this. Well, so there's a different couple ways in modern day technology. Citing with Ian Beck. There's a different couple of ways because I was in these positions where I needed to pay people. Because I was taking good money and mixing it with bad money by paying off shady loan sharks and biker club gangs and whatnot to prevent myself getting hurt. So I'm taking the money I'm making from the club and concerts and paying.

them off and it's just a big mess. But anyways, there's a couple of things I figured out. Back then, and this is in 2016, it's severely changed since then. And then I can't even imagine what it was like in your time. But you could take a check and you could deposit a check in your ATM and they'll clear the whole check right away. You'll get all that money for it. So I would take like a six, $700 check and the ATM Citibank would immediately give me that money. Yeah, I'd get it right away and then pull it right out. And then that's that money. And then, And then when it would bounce inevitably from my other account, it would take them days to find out. There wasn't this next day approval or whatever, and I would have that money.

And you could do that a couple times before the banks even traced it back to each other. So that was one way to do it. These are all small amounts. The next way was through sites when PayPal and Venmo had first came out. And you could do these e-checks. So you could pay. So say I want to Venmo you. I want to PayPal you.

and I needed to Venmo or PayPal you $5,000. I would select the e-check option because it was a brand new account. There was no history of account closure or bounce checks or whatever. So I would e-check you the money. You'd have it immediately. And then they would withdraw it from my bank account, PayPal or Venmo, a few days later. But the money wasn't there. That would then bounce.

You already have your money, you're paid. And then they would close my account, my Venmo account, because they found out two weeks later that the money was never even really there. Now you can't do that. They won't send you the money until that payment clears from my bank account, and there's precautions in place. But that was modern-day check cut. Hannity presents.

In the red corner, the undisputed, undefeated weed whacker guy. Champion of hurling grass and pollen everywhere. And in the blue corner, the challenger, extra strength, Hannity. Eye drops and work all day to prevent the release of histamines that cause itchy allergy. eyes. And the winner by knockout is Padiday. Paddy. Bring it on. All right, everyone, welcome to Arco Rewards Orientation. I'm Hannah. Whoa. Uh, is everything okay? That's a code green. Someone just earned at least five cents a gallon in rewards. Wow. Another one? Well, that one's a

gold. The customer just redeemed savings of up to a dollar a gallon. Impressive. Uh, what does that one mean? Oh, that's just piggy. He gets excited when we talk about rewards. Savings of up to $1 per gallon redeemable with $20 rewards dollars in your loyalty account. At participating locations, terms and conditions apply. And with electronic transfers and whatnot. So we call it the float. Yeah, the float, yeah.

Right. So the float is how I lived, but it also didn't just create cash flow. There's an accounting repercussion that I learned, and that is you can book it as income. So what I used to teach auditors, you know, they said, how did you fool the audit? Well, you guys are predictable. You send out confirmations. That's your big way of verifying things. So I gave you a phony address, set up a thing in the 80s you couldn't tell.

And I got the confirmation and verified the balance and whatever. The other thing was they never tested income. Today they can. But when I say that, the bank statement would show deposits and amounts. Now the expenses check number, whatever, for this amount, they'd go look that up because you could. And who was it to? What was it for? and the audit would often focus and test transactions on the expense side.

That's for the deposit side. What's the $50,000? Oh, that's the restoration job down payment for job $1.826. Oh, okay. Income. What was it? A kite from an account they didn't know about. But it flows into the account as a credit to cash of $50 grand.

Now, the hardest part of my scheme was we had Mark Mores and I at my 24,000, first birthday, my right-hand man, literally, and this actually happened, you can call him, brought a kite of a check to my, and nobody got up but me and him. Because of the time and hours, we had to spend every day remembering which bank had to get deposit, because we got immediate credit at all the banks, but if you ever missed one and the music stopped, you were done. So explain how the process works. So let's say you have a bank at Bank of America, and then Citibank, we'll use Contemporary, Bray Banks, not that we did, and Chase. So you have an account at Bank America.

You write a check to your Chase account. You get immediate credit that's available. You write a check to your city bank account. That's immediate credit that's available. Then you pay the B of A bank, and you keep it running. Now, checks took two, three, four days to clear. Back then. Right.

Better than checks, though, which helped me with income. So you could say 86% of our revenue was fraudulent, Ian, because of the restoration jobs. They were fraudulent. But why did everybody believe it? Everybody says everybody's supposed to... No, they weren't. 1,200 employees, 23 locations. Perpetrators of financial fraud know you've got to have something.

Skin of the Truth stuffed with a lie. Did Madoff really have a trading floor? And a lie? Yeah. But it was beneath or the top. That's for all. So skin of the true stuffed with a lie is true in every successful, and I use that in quotes, fraud. No different at C-Best.

Now, master charge and visa, remember you'll go like this. Okay, that's where the real... And they imprint the numbers, right? So all my cleaners had those, and when they'd come back, I'd get the authorization numbers. I'd add a two in front of the 5797. So 257.97, I'd get an approval. That next, I'd bring it to the bank that day. The next day was clear funds.

It took 60 days. Remember, today you would know tonight if somebody charged your credit card. Get an alert on your phone. Absolutely. It's not even tonight. I'd know right this second. They didn't have no phone. They didn't have no alert.

And everybody exploited the float time in kiting, every crook, and I'm not proud of it, and master charge visa. And then the third was payroll taxes. Back then, and the IRS, you know, I would like to think that, you know, our case was one of many that brought it to attention. I was withholding taxes and never sending them in at all. first of all, I didn't know how, but that wasn't an excuse because I figured out how to do accounting fraud, but I understood that you're supposed to do it. But while if I went to Bank of America with a $5 check, they would check to see if the money was there before they cashed it. The IRS, you can pull out at the time.

You can't today. You go to prison for it today. But then the 941s were due quarterly and you put it down what you paid. And their checks and balances were not there. I don't know. It wasn't until we became public and we had like this huge accounting system that we actually started to pay payroll taxes. But all those years, I would take taxes and be able to survive because I never paid the government those taxes. Nothing I'm proud of. And I explained that to the IRS after I did a four and a half month trial. But it was fake money anyways.

Right. But still, it was a hole in the system. The float. You mentioned it in 16. This is 82, 83, 87. This window of master charge of visa float doesn't exist today. Great, good thing. Check kinding doesn't exist for the most part today at all. And the whole IRS thing absolutely doesn't. They take out weekly because they don't trust employers, right? To pay it. And it's much more.

And it's good for the employer. You don't want to owe that money. You want to get rid of it. I imagine people do that with sales tax, though, because it's on you. Or at least I know in Connecticut, like you charge someone's sales tax and you file that monthly. If you could probably build up a hefty amount of money from charging, getting that extra sales tax, hypothetically. Yeah, you don't want to do that in California. They are not known for persecutting a whole lot of crime out there, but don't miss with their franchise tax board money.

Those people are, they're not playing. Yeah. So you're right. You could get into serious trouble there. But the point was is the energy and effort that goes into, and it doesn't happen overnight, it slowly escalates the demands on your time to fool the auditors. Then the stakes are higher. Then the loans have more zeros. Then the schemes change from check kiting to master charge and visa fraud to bank fraud. And they escalate. And the thing about white-collar crime is you're not caught immediately after the action

and it reinforces the behavior. This is the attraction. So the average person cheats on their... tax return tomorrow when they mail it in by Friday the IRS isn't at their front door. There's a lag time. You lie on a bank loan application. You could pay as a business person a loan off at a bank and lie and still be guilty under 18 USC for bank fraud, even if the loan's paid.

But everybody's doing it. Nobody's going to get hurt. I'm paying the loan back. How many times I use that rationale? I'm a young guy. What am I taking this money going to Europe? So I learned one of the greatest lessons ever, and it's called the meeting payroll lesson. And one of the things I try to convey when I speak or talk to people is you must guard yourself from meeting payroll mentality.

And they're like, what the heck is that? The money order that I stole from the liquor store at 16, he had trusted me to make my own money orders. Ben knew me since I was five. He loved me. He loved my sister. He loved my dad. He was the greatest guy ever.

He heard I couldn't open a check. He was so proud of me opening a business. And I couldn't meet payroll. And he trusted me with the box of money orders. He'd go in the back. And I'd show up. what the amounts were, all the customer checks, and he converted him to money orders, I'd do it all for him, and then he'd come sign it. I said, if I take one from the bottom stuff into my pocket,

give it a quick, you know, with the imprint, then they know it's real, then by the time he finds out, I'll pay it back. And I remember it was a Thursday night, Friday was payroll, and I went to Rick's liquor to get the money orders, as was my custom at the time. And he went in the back and trusted me. And when I was reaching in, I thought to myself, I'm not buying drugs with this. I'm not going to Europe with this. I'm not.

Vera needs to get paid. My carpet cleaners need to get paid. I'll pay it back. Every small businessman person goes through cash flow crunches. I have to do this. for no other reason than I'm not going to leave people without getting their paycheck. And I carried that mentality to when Z-Best had 1,000 employees. And the zeros were bigger.

And the lies were to banks and other financial institution, phony leases on equipment that never existed. I got it created just to get the cash. All with the mentality, I got to meet payroll until I have the cure. and the cure was selling my stock when I was able after the two-year restriction and paying off the mafia, paying off the Ponzi. Try to go legit. That's the lie. Every crime is a cure. But the meeting payroll is this.

If there's a cause in your life that you can justify doing anything for in your mind that if they just knew your story, like your payroll, meeting payroll equivalent, which put lying on the table, you see it in politics all the time. Whether it's, you know, and I don't do politics, I know you don't and I definitely don't do it.

But if you think that something is so important, then truth that nothing matters because you've got to meet payroll. So I see people make devastating decisions, whether in business or politics or life, when they've justified in their mind that they're meeting payroll and they have to do it. So if this gal who's running for office is so bad, then writing a story or 10 about her that's maybe not true or doesn't. Who cares? I got to meet payroll.

She can't get it. Whatever you've justified in you. You're just meeting payroll. They're saying the ends justify the means. It's deeper than that because that's a, it doesn't, I don't think it does justice. The ends justify the meaning. In your mind, though. It does, but it's much more committed to that.

The ends justify the means has limitations in my mind. I'm like, okay, you can talk out of that. You're not talking me out of meeting payroll. I got to pay these people and everything's on the table to do so because of what I'm not doing. You just don't understand. the greater good here. So the ends justify the means is part the way there, but it's that extra what you're willing to do

because you're so increasingly convinced that if you don't, devastation will occur. And it's really for the public good. It's really for the employees good. Do you understand that families need to get paid every week? So dummy? Come on. Now, nobody ever thought to say, well, it's your fault for being financially irresponsible

and, you know, growing too quickly or all these horrible decisions, that's not on the table at the time you're making the decision. So I always warn people that if you have a big private equity real estate company and you're a big name or a small name, and you're thinking to yourself, well, this valuation here, it's a little high. But look at all the people who are depending on me. I saw courses.

I have tenants. Everybody steps on the valuation. to get a better LTV. So that's my meeting payroll excuse for crossing the line. See how easy that flows? Yeah. And that's the devastation. You talk about psychology of crime.

And Ian, for me, that was it. And it was even at the church. Ian, here, I know this up here. So I probably said that one or two times. And then I'm pastoring a church for 14 years. in San Diego. Love it. People are great.

I got no excuses. And I'm uncovering all this fraud. So you talk. I had this biker come to me from prison. Straight up Hells Angels. Straight up killer. Almost got me charged with the money laundering charge. The FBI came and saw me because I bought a cashier's check for the guy.

And the guy says, Barry, your name came up. I said, for what? He goes, well, you bought a cashier's check. And I said, that's right I did. And I'm not money lying. He goes, I know you're not, but I had to come check. You're on probation. And will you come speak at our thing?

Yeah, I got it. But he's somebody you don't say no to. So he comes to me and he says, I want you to check out this investment opportunity. A guy just pitched me. And I said, why would I do that? He goes, well, you speak to the FBI about fraud. I said, yeah, but I don't believe any of that crap I teach. And he's like, no, you got to, I don't want to go in.

This is 250 grand, but he's promised me 12% a quarter. I'll never forget it. I go, what kind of deal is it? Factoring receivables. And I thought to myself, I used to. to do that. That was one of the many lies, you know, phony factoring of receivables, fake invoices, fake travelers, employee, all that. But I remembered UCC ones are always filed when you do factoring. So I figured how hard could it be to run a UCC run check? It's probably all good. I said,

give me the package. I'm not paying you. I said, I know you're not. We're good. So this guy is a straight, if I didn't say, straight up hell's angel, but a good dude and somebody I knew from from prison. So, I'm checking the UCC ones for this company called MX Factors. You can Google it. And then Google Barry Minco. It's true. $100 million fraud, turns out.

But at the time, it's 2003. I'm pastoring a church. And I'm looking at this thing. I'm like, oh, no. So I called the guy, I said, listen, dude, I don't care what you're doing. But there's this guy who's going to invest, who will kill you.

So don't take his money. So keep it moving. I'm just calling to protect you guys. It was really nasty on the phone. I'm like, okay, it's like that, huh? So anyway, I did some more checking and come to find out. It was a huge fraud. I went to the SEC in L.A.

gave him the case. Within weeks, an article came out in the AP, look it up, MX Factory is bury me. And it was $100 million fraud. And from that, somebody called me and said, well, you look at this deal. And it was a $300 million fraud. And I got credit for uncovering it. So it kind of went like that until 16 and got more credit than I deserved.

And there was a movie made on the Derek Turner case, for example, in New Zealand, on Turning International undercover for the FBI in the Bahamas. This is why I'm pastoring. So I'm thinking to myself, I'm doing all this good. Church is growing. I'm uncovering this fraud. They ain't paying me. So I can commingle funds, lie, live a double life. I ended up addicted to Oxycontin, betray my church, betray the finances of the church,

violate a position of trust, be unfaithful to my wife and family, and my board and church. And it's all okay because who else is uncovering $1.8 billion and 60 minutes did a story and affirmed it, and people were calling. and then I went and started to do public companies because I wanted to monetize and then it was just destruction. My point of saying that is, is I know the mentality of where I ought not to go

from a first experience. But when you're, and you would have put me on a polygraph, I'm never going back. And it's subtle. And it doesn't happen overnight. And it's slow. And it starts off for me. with a church credit card where I had a church credit card and pay it back every month,

well, two months. I'll pay it back. I ultimately did, but it was longer. And, hey, I could play the float with that and compromising. So much to my shame, committing four felonies a day and uncovering fraud, pastoring a church. And, you know, the preaching, I had the incredible ability

to compartmentalize my evil. So I could passionately preach a sermon on Friday night, Saturday night, and then four on Sunday. And by Sunday night or Monday, view something I ought not to do or be involved in something I ought not to be involved in in a secret way that I knew was wrong.

and somehow justifying it by this is what I have to do to survive, to film the movie, keep the church going, uncover the fraud, I got these people depending on me, and you create this lie, almost like a meeting payroll equivalent excuse for every evil thing you do. And you're back in the deception. So it was brutal because the devastation of my family and my congregation who loved and trusted me for 14 years.

And then when I resigned, it was the worst day of my life. Back to the media for all the wrong reasons. My boys are like seven or eight. They're like, Dad, where are we going? Dad's running away because he's a punk and doesn't want to face the media. So we moved to Tennessee until I turned myself into Lexington six months later. So before you became the pastor and defrauded the church, though, you got sentenced for the ZZ. 1988

and 89 I got sentenced I got 25 years I did a four and a half month trial So you went to trial You got arrested by the defense Oh man when I went to trial How did they find out about the whole scam

So an article came out in the LA Times May 22nd 1987 You're 21 years old Friday I'll never forget it No yeah I'm 21 Dang Ian

I'm impressed The yes I was And it said behind Wiskid lies trail a false credit card billings. You can Google it. And you're one of probably the first national fraud guys. Of the CEOs. Yeah, of a legitimate publicly traded, audited.

That you scammed your way to get that. Yeah. So it was the mob. Then police learned how mob moved in on Minko. That wasn't known. But it was all voluntary. So I wasn't some victim, even though I tried to say it was. but I was worried I was going to die because, you know, the mob and was he going to tell?

Because they had some exposure with insider trading. And remember, they're buying the stock on the way up and shorting it on the way down because they got the information of I'm going down. And I'm telling them every day what's happening. And they're shorting. I'm not. And they're not sharing the money. So the mob did well.

None of them went to jail. They made a fortune. All good. Now, when you say the mob, any big players that would know? Yeah, there's two that are still alive. I won't mention their names ever. And I had no idea that first brown paper bag with 25K that came from Jack Coutain, who's passed, came from this particular gentleman and his brother who are still thriving in the underworld

and will never out of respect for them. And they, you know what, they were the greatest guys to me. They were always good to me. And then Francis, I met him in T.I. And he helped say, hey, he's going to trial. Kind of put the word on. He hired Kenner and Brookler's dad was a mom. mafia guy. And I went to trial for four and a half months. And all the guys in prison were like,

you're a stand-up guy. I'm like, no, I'm not. I'm trying to lie out of this. I'm not, I could talk my way out of anything. Little did I know about the federal rules of criminal procedure and cross-examination. So you didn't get Bond or anything. They booked 21 years old. Even though we turned myself in and we had this whole setup where, yeah, Judge Trevisian. This was a big hit. My judge, Judge Trevisian, when David Kenner had his 80th birthday party, Snoop was there. I was. I was. there, Beau Bennett was there. And my judge was there, Judge Trevisian, greatest guy. And he never wanted, you know, he's like, you were dumb. By 21, you're in prison. Okay, you made a mistake. And at the time I saw him with my wife and Encino a couple years, about a year and a half,

two years ago, he was, I had been out from the second offense. And that he was not happy about because I had been out 16 years. I was uncovering fraud. He went on 60 minutes for me. So he was a huge fan and I disappointed him. And he's there with his wife and he calls my wife over. He says, Lisa, can you keep him out of trouble, please? She goes, I'm trying. I'm trying.

So the judge turned out to be fantastic. But at my sentencing, he said, listen, I listened to you testify. It was El Toro Poooo-Poo. That's what he called it. It's true. And he gave me 25 years, but it was under the old law. So you did

a third. I had a B1 number. Oh, there's parole back then. I was under the old one. I was wondering how you got out so early. So you didn't testify. You didn't cooperate. I got four and a half month trial found guilty. It was a public trial. So I go to Englewood. It was a medium. Remember, 88, it was the youth acts.

I'm there in 89. It's like gladiator school at that time. It was medium. It was rock and roll. But I was 21, 22. I was ready. And the, everybody's like, he's such a stand-up guy. I'm like, dude, I'm a freaking lion manipulative weasel.

because you think I'm a stand-up guy, but I really went to trial thinking I could beat these feds, not that I'm a stand-up guy because I didn't testify against some mom. I'm sure maybe in some distant thing, but to be, remember, truth be told, Ian, I wasn't a stand-up guy, I was a selfish guy, and prison ethics are such that if you go to 25 years and you're the number one defendant and don't tell on anyone. Now, the irony of this is in the 16 years later in the second offense,

when I'm the only I'm the only charged person. There are no co-defendants. Even in your first case, too, there's no... No, in the first case, 57 people testified against me. I was the number one indicted. I got 25 years.

The closest to me got eight was out in four. Everybody else got 18 months or nothing. A business partner or something? No, the guy who did the kite. Mark. He was great. I'm not even tripping. He was fine.

He told the truth. You were probably one of the youngest people for fraud because I was young when I went out of 21. I was the youngest person ever take a company public in American business history, but I was a crook, so don't be impressed, but that still holds today. No, but I'm saying the federal prison aspect, the youngest person sentenced for fraud. Oh, well, I'm sure there was some credit card guy. No, but at that time period and stuff, because I was very young.

When I went in, I was at 21, and that's why everyone thought I was a sex offender. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's not many young guys in federal prison for fraud at that age. So that's a good point, and I never thought of it. So, but the irony for my case, Ian, was fast forward to 2011. You got the real experience of modern day federal prison. Worse, because I don't, Alvin, and my criminal defense lawyer did not make many mistakes. He passed and recently always loved Alvin.

and he had me do an article, an interview with Fortune Magazine. So the guy, before I got, turned myself in September 2011, turned myself in, so the guy comes out to my house and he's nice, you know, it's a whole big lie. He writes a 12-page article, cover story, whatever. The minute it comes out in December of 2011, I'm out on the yard for like 90 days and doing well, adjusting friends in the church, friends, they lock me in the shoe.

10 days. And they're like, you're not getting out with this article because it points you as a government informant. I said, I'm not a government informant. I'm a licensed PI who gave cases to the government and saved most of these guys on this yard's mothers from being ripped off. And I never got a dime. And I didn't get any sentence reduction. Had nothing to do with my case. In fact, they didn't even give me any mitigating factors for uncovering all this fraud. And they didn't pay me. Remember, look it up. When did Dodd-Frank become law? 2011, the whistleblower law. So the SEC writes a letter, Peter Dale Greco from the LA office did.

Now, I'm getting busted for insider trading for Lenar and the church of. I'm in the Miami courtroom and the judge is like, well, I got this letter from the SEC saying you've uncovered a billion dollars in fraud. Well, that's wonderful, Mr. Minko, because they're the ones who are enforcing. This is a first. So when you get out, I'd like you to uncover fraud, but stay away from public companies. Would you please? because apparently they're too big of a temptation for you. But you certainly have a gift to uncover financial fraud here, as evidenced by the SEC writing a letter at your sentencing.

A first. To this day, Peter Do Greco is a friend, and he's still at the SEC in L.A. In fact, I probably see him in a week for lunch. But never forgot that. But the point was, is my cooperation never got a dime. And I never got a sentence reduction. It wasn't about that. For me, it was about the attention.

and made for a good movie, I guess. And it made for a great excuse to be the devil because it cleared my conscience. I was doing all this evil, but I wanted to sleep at night too, Ian. So if I'm saving all these old ladies from getting ripped off and uncovering all this fraud, which for me was kind of a natural thing,

it wasn't really difficult at the time, plus I was more lucky than good, it appeased my conscience. I helped me sleep at night. So nobody really knew why I did it. Yeah, for the attention, but it also was kind of a mitigating factor to the life that I and nobody else knew I was living. So I get on the yard.

They say, we're going to let you out after 10 days, but you got to sign a piece of paper. I said, what's this? Anything happens to you? You're on your own. I'm like, dang, it's like that, huh? I didn't know it was like that here in Lexington. So it wasn't like, you know, Big Sandy. It was Lexington.

So, but still, it was one through six, you know, it was administrative because. And this is a penitentiary? No, no, University of Kentucky. It was a medical center. So, oh, yeah, it was locked down, controlled movement, but you could get your USP guys in there because University of Kentucky, you know, so they had to, you know.

Anyway, I get out, and Ian, scariest time in my life. See, in prison, everybody's got it wrong who hasn't been there. It has nothing to do with how tough you are. 11 to 1 is, I don't care, this ain't a movie. It could be if,

things happen, a very bad place if you do things that are unwise. And it has nothing to do with your strength or how much you bench or how good you are at Jiu-Jitsu. Because they don't do that there, as you know, when it gets to fighting, it's five-on-one four-way. It's not a movie. So I was always the guy. I hugged everybody.

I went to church. I didn't, I wasn't tripping on color and any of that in my, And so the white guys already didn't like me a whole lot at all because my workout partner is black and Puerto Ricans. And I, you know, went to church and we're totally. And, of course, anybody at that time you could, you know, worship. You weren't on that kind of time with, oh, he's a choma. Wasn't on any of that time. I betrayed God.

Nobody's worse than I am. Everybody's cool with me. So I wasn't on that kind of time. and when I got out it was it was a the mafia guy I knew was like can't even talk to you don't even come near me

and I'm like dang with the exception of my church brothers and the African American community I was shunned now Jeremy Grammer was a cop detective at Arkansas Fayetteville

but he was also he looked like Kevin Costner and he was a karate guy but he was somebody that really knew how to take care of himself but he never he said Barry first thing he got to do is get back out on the yard is what are you talking about they're trying to get on the yard do your weights do your crew

like nothing ever happened he goes you have to understand that no matter how you feel these people need to see you that you're on that yard everything's normal cognitive dissidents and then they'll think it's normal. In life, when I got out, Ian, one of the best pieces of advice I give to somebody

get back out on the yard. I know you're hurt. I know you just went through a divorce of bankruptcy. Get on the yard. Get your exercise. Don't withdraw from people. Don't withdraw from your support group. Don't withdraw. Stop your dieting or your training. Get on the yard. One of the best pieces of advice I ever got. Second, Isaac Knapper, Angola State Penitentiary, did 20 years for murder he didn't commit. Golden Glove Champion. One of the great stories, book written about him. I went to Cardinal Unit when I got out of the shoe and he and befriended me, him and Vino. And he said, I know your story. I'm writing a book. You help me? I said, be honored. Now, he was so lethal that he had to report to the lieutenants once a week. I mean, that's how,

because he was Golden Glove Champion, and nobody messed with him. And he trained boxers on the third floor. knew it. Ed Murray, some of my other friends. So when he heard I was having trouble, he brought me to every unit on that compound. And Teas said, this is my friend Barry Minco. Let me explain something to you. In his first case, he went to a four and a half month trial. He has no defendants in this case. As for what that article said, that was his profession. He had a license. He was a PI. He never was paid a dime. And he never used his influence in fraud uncovering to benefit himself with his sentence. In fact, it worked against him. So your mom probably didn't get ripped off because of him. So if you have anything to say to him, you'll say it to me. And that was the end of it. So, I mean,

and it was just like back to know, like, well, we don't like him, but, well, we don't not like them that much. And, but the other thing I noticed was, obviously the Christian community stood by me, but the African American community was just like amazing. Like they were not tripping. and friends are like, we love you, man. Hey, show us how to short sell, would you? I mean, you're kidding. Well, you know, the older fraud guys can get away with more. Yeah.

I think in federal prison, like whether they're not going to attack you, even if you were a snitch or a rat in whoever's eyes, they're not going to have a little bit more. They're not looking to kill you or hurt you in that aspect. And they're very fascinating in federal prison with the fraud guys because they want to learn because they're serving lengthy sentences for whatever it was they did. they see a fraud guy get a fraction of the time. And they're curious about how to do that.

I immediately started a class how not to run a business. And they let me do it in education. And it sold out, man. I was the best failure you ever. I can't tell you what to do. But boy, can I tell you what not to do? So I'm sure they loved you in that sense. It was good.

So, like it was great. How much? You got 25 years that first time. Did seven and a half. Got out became. I got my second master's degree in Liberty University, M. Div. And started helping. And then started as an associate pastor and then an intern.

And then in 97 March, I was a senior pastor of community Bible church. But were you making money for this? So, yeah, you get paid for being a pastor, but I was also doing speaking engagements. Okay. Like continuing education for auditors. they had to do 30 hours a year in continuing ed. So state CPA societies, I'd go and teach, and that would be income. And what about restitution?

Did you have restitution? I've never stopped paying restitution. I have five, four a month I pay voluntarily now. $5,000 or $400? No, four different restitution orders. Yeah, yeah. So, no, no. At the Z-Best thing, I had won the Union Bank paid them.

from 1995 till 2011. I have a question about that. Yeah. Because you're the first person that's lived long enough and in between. When you have a restitution order, what happens after the 20 years?

So it's civil and then they stop enforcing after 15 today, but in the old law, it dropped when your probation dropped unless they sued you. Wait, so what happens at 15 now and present day? Yeah, their judge is good for 15.

But can't they read? We knew it or no? My understanding is they can't, but the financial AESA, we didn't take a chance. You know what we did? We went to court two months before I was off probation why my judge had jurisdiction. So I had a Miami case, insider trading, San Diego case, tax fraud and the church-related offenses of commingling, embezzlement, whatever. They put them together in L.A., and I got a great kind of like Obama appointee judge.

So we went in. It was my lawyer's advice. He said, yeah, you got to. a good AUSA now with your restitution, but she leaves, goes to private industry, some big law firm, and somebody who's got an attitude who doesn't like you is going to jack your restitution. I don't want to leave it up for, and at the time, I had just uncovered for financial frauds since I've been out that hit the papers. So it's like, let's leverage this a little bit to get them to settle and leave you alone.

You know, his attorney's like, okay, we'll do that deal. So I signed a deal that I would pay a certain amount and after 15 years it would drop. but I was paying anyway and was going to pay anyway but it was just an amount that wasn't going to escalate. Now the IRS, every two years it's an audit

and they jacked me up. But the feds... IRS jacks you up for that? They're tough. No, but what was that back taxes you owed? Yeah. But the irony is the San Diego case itself

is an IRS fraud. Mostly IRS. So that's why the IRS was involved. No, it's kind of complicated. So I got that criminally under control. with the judge and signed off. It's the civil side that I had some exposure

and they're kind of on me, but when you ain't doing nothing, I'm not tripping. They get my bangs, they do whatever the heck they want. So when they come and examine me, they're like, we want you, I said, what do you want?

Well, we want you to double your pen. Done. Okay, thank you. You just play ball with them. I don't, I ain't messing with these feds. I ain't messing. Listen, they call me for help with cases, like a couple I'm on now.

And I still don't mess with them. Do you get paid for those? Can't talk about it, but yeah. So they say, but we'll see. But yeah. So the rest of, I'm fascinated with that. After 15 years, they can't enforce it. They pretty much, yeah, they're pretty much over as my understanding, but I would check with,

this is not financial advice. I would check with, because that financial restitution division of the, U.S. Attorney's Office is civil. Financial litigation unit. Yeah. And they're, actually, they're a lot easier to deal with them. Well, what I've learned to deal with them is you just pay them what they want and they're happy. Like, I send them my books every month and I pay $1,000 a month for my restitution.

So that's great. And what's the amount of your restitution? It's down to like $410,000. Oh, see, mine's $660 million. And the irony is. And I thought, well, for Wall Street had it bad with $100 billion. But they, listen, they didn't. say I got six hundred. That's the amount

the stock dropped in Lanar. Yeah. So you owe it. Two days and then it went back up. Yeah. And they're like, well, technically. So where's that money go to? Who are your victims? The stockholders? No, no. Linar gets Who's Linar? Linnar is a builder. Okay. And actually, you know what? I ain't tripping on that either because

when I was sentenced, the president of Linar, Stuart Miller, in Miami, came to sentencing. And we're, Alvin and I were up there. And he came with his general counsel. He goes, look, because we were like fighting and I lost. Petrocelli, who got OJ convicted civilly and who was the Enron lawyer, was their lawyer. And I had lost. And so we had mended facts. It's like no hard feelings.

It wasn't personal. I lost. And I pled guilty and it's over. And he said, because you did that, they wanted me to say something bad about you. I ain't saying nothing. I wish you the best. Wish your wife the best. And we're good.

We shook hands. That was it. So, and then I got the time. The restitution is IRS. I've finished paying the state of California. If you can believe that, that was no small miracle. The IRS, the San Diego case, which is mostly IRS, because we had insurance. Like when I was doing what I was doing at the church, I jacked our insurance policies

up behind the backs of my elders because I knew I didn't want to leave them hanging and they would be questioning, why are you upping the insurance? Well, only two people sued them for a couple hundred grand, but they were covered. So the main case was the mortgage and the IRS. So that and then the Lenar case. So it's every month, but I've been doing it since like, you know, before, like when we got out, December 18, you got out in. Yeah.

So, and even in prison, I was doing it in Unicorn. And before that, I was doing it for Union Bank. It took a couple hundred bucks in prison. There has never been a time since 80, since I got out and not, since, really, since 90 that I have not paid restitution. You just made me think about that. Because remember, I was Unicorn, right? You were Unicor.

They took half for restitution. So they put us in industry, not because they like, they want to take our money. So I worked Unicorn in both places, Englewood and later in Atwater. And they got 50%. And then when I got out, the first time I paid, got out the second time I paid. And when I got out the first time, even though the U.S. attorneys dropped $26 million, Union Bank had judgment.

So I paid them, and the lawyer was great. He was in La Jolla. It was fair. I'd refinance my house, give him $25 grand. He'd let me refi. I mean, I paid over six figures easily over the years to my single victim union bank, and then they merged and it was over. But now have the restitutions with Linar Church.

Yeah. So you get out, you rebuild your life. And by the way, you did 15 years on top of, so. Yeah, but I don't know. That's a gray area. What? Like, does prison cancel out the restitution? Oh, no, no, no.

So as a believer, you know, there's the old white-collar criminal Zakias in the Bible. I pay back everybody I stole from. Doesn't matter how much time you do. But my point is, in the criminal justice system today where you don't get indicted for burning down a police station. doing 15 for two white collar offenses and then paying the restitution, I'm just as guilty and I deserved it. Ain't no question and no excuses.

So we're good. But I agree with you 100% that the time you serve, but what the FBI told me when I got out when I was doing that speaking gig is they said, listen, you wouldn't be here if you didn't do seven and a half years on this bit for Lanar. You did your time. I respect that. And you're paying your restitution and you're uncovering fraud. Otherwise, I wouldn't have called you to come speak here because you'd have no credibility.

Say what you want about all the evil you did. That's why your kids grew up without you from ages 8 to 15. And there's not a lot of white-collar criminals that or even today violent ones that will make a similar statement. That's all he was saying. You earned your credibility back with me by just not finessing your way out of your time. You did it seven and a half both times. And you were first-time offender both times. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway.

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So you did your time. You're paying your restitution. we're good now what do you got well so you you get out and you get a second chance like you're this whiz kid and everyone's eyes everything's great yeah you become a pastor and that was your supposed to be your success story right but then you end up stealing from the church so yes so true guilty on all counts but it was much worse than that that's an oversimplification because the financial end was two three million bucks and mortgage insurance and it wasn't wasn't that. The much more significant offense was the betrayal. When you're a pastor and you do

people's weddings and funerals and violate a position to trust and you do what I did, that's a blow that some aren't going to recover from because the next pastor, I wonder if he's going to do that. So coming to grips with that was very humbling, difficult and real. realizing and then it came to a point where, you know, a lot of people at Lexington used to talk to me about, you know, you got to let this go, bro, it's why you're doing your time, man. You didn't get away with it. And, you know, it's some people are slow learners and you don't have the God of a second chance. You have the God of another chance. So it really humbled me and caused me to reflect on the importance of the transparency issue. But the other thing it did is it, it, it, it, is it made me realize the devastation of my family, Lisa, the boys. The fact that Lisa and I are married and we have our boys is a miracle. You guys are still married after all these years. So she divorced me in 2013 or 14 when she found out, I confessed.

I had my buddy say, you're never going to have a relationship with your wife unless you tell her the truth. And I'm like, I really don't want to tell her this. She knows anyway. you got to come clean. I'm like, done prison? No. Wrote her letter said, this is what I did. I was unfaithful and I'm guilty and I have no excuses.

Boom, divorce. Didn't see her here for the boys in like six months. It's brutal. I'm in Lexington, brutal. The devastating consequences. And I had guys tell me, God's going to bring your family back together. I'm like, yeah, not going to happen.

I mean, the hate mail. Advice I got was stay in touch with your kids, write them letters every week, even though you don't know they're going to get them. And I never missed, tried to do what I could. But I got what I deserved. She was right. I was unfaithful.

That's a basis for divorce. If we were ever going to start over again, that old thing had to die. Well, she never remarried or anything like that. And then I kind of want a settlement and a suit because we were actually right on our research. And we wanted an appeal. and there was a little money and I'm like, so sent her half.

And they started a visit. We slowly, and I was in the vision room and atwater. And my son Dylan and Lisa and Robert came, my twins. And they were 11, I want to say. and Dylan was at the visiting room table and he looked at me and he said, Dad, I have a question. I said anything, son. I hadn't seen him in six months.

He said, you know, I miss you, and Robert misses you and mom. And I know what happened. I can understand with the church. And you were a pastor. And he said, dad, why did you do that? I don't find a loss of words. And I was thinking back, never forget

whenever I'd go guest speak somewhere I'd always talk about the famous story of Jonah where he runs from God and he's on a boat and the waves are destroying the ship and the lot falls on him and the guys who don't have any relationship with God so we're looking at Jonah, the prophet, saying he's like, look, the reason the storm told me

I'm a freaking runner, liar, and just throw me in the ocean. and you're going to be just fine. It's all me. I ran. And you know what they said? And they said, Jonah, these are not religious people.

They said, why did you do that? And I think that is the toughest question for us who face a federal sentencing judge who are the recipient of a search warrant or a target letter. Or that incident

that we know it's going to upset the balance of our life forever. And we know it's because of a self-inflicted wound. And I'm looking at my son in the visiting room. And I remember just kind of tearing up a little bit. And I said, son, I'm so sorry. Answer that could ever explain you growing up in a apartment in North Hollywood, barely making it every month with your brother. and mom and the dog and i put you in that situation and all i could say is i'm so sorry son but i'm

gonna make it up to you i can't undo what i've done and i have no answer for it other than utter selfishness and sin and no blame just me my bad I'm so sorry I was in the hotel down the street here

by the way about three miles from here and it's a three hour time difference you know what happened Ian Dylan called at now he knows not to call his dad like passed like seven but he lives at home I could a bit early but with mom but I'm back east

it's three hours ahead and he was going through a rough time with my granddaughter and his you know her mom and I was tired and cranky a little bit and the phone rang in and he's like dad this happened last night I'll show you the call on my phone before I leave coming it's documented and he said Do you have time to talk? And I thought of myself, I've been praying for this for freaking 10 years, dude. 15 years.

Everybody who's ever failed who wants their family back prays for that one time when their son or daughter or wife says you got time to talk. You got credibility back in my life. I want to know what you have to say.

It's like it never happened. You're my dad, again and I need help. What do you think my answer was when Dylan called me last night, Ian, at the days in, at 11 o'clock Eastern time, you bet I do, son. That wasn't even, I'm honored. So, oh, it's nice to work for the feds to have them call you and uncover fraud and do this. and the miracle of the reconciliation of my family is, and friends,

and people who call me that it's like, we need your help with this, you've got a hand. I'm like, do you know who you're talking to? I've never done anything right in my life. And they trust you again. And no matter how far you've fallen, even if it's twice. Hey, you know what, Ian? even if it's three times or 70 times seven. I'm absolutely convinced there's hope for any person.

That's why I came 3,000 miles. Because you have a similar message of hope, optimism. You're not involved in the drama of the gossip and the nonsense. And you know what I'm talking about. You remove yourself from that because it just gets in the, way of your goals of encouragement and success and getting people's stories out that may have some meaningful impact. So my stories for those who are more than two-time losers, who have no hope, who think it's over, and why do you think I always say on the fraud minute,

it ain't over? Prison saying, it ain't over, but that's what he used to tell me. it ain't over, Barry. Every guy in Lexington, it ain't over. I never forgot that. There's hope. I think people don't get to see this side of you. Like, I'm sure when you get asked to do an interview, they want to know, like, the fraud, the money, the prison, this and that.

So to give someone a safe space to be able to share their more psychological thoughts, I think that teaches more than what, other shows do. And everyone has kind of like their place in this podcast world, but it's just unique in that sense because I'm sure you've worked with big platforms like CNN and like whoever, these big companies, a lot of it's scripted to their narrative and less about your narrative. So to be able to have a space like this, I think is super important in the world. As evidenced by the impact you've had in the finite amount of time you've been out, It's really, I mean, you know, you're going to have to forgive me for saying this man,

but I think God's got his hand on your life and your work here. I mean, it's amazing. And if they saw the guy who walked out of here in a wheelchair who you value and embraced, it was powerful and gave dignity, that's amazing. I tried to treat everyone, you know, as equal. And a lot, like someone said to me that's close to me recently, she was like, you know what I like about you is that you do a lot for others. And I think my whole life before, everything was transactional because that's the way people treated me.

In the music business, oh, you want this artist, great, it's $20,000. You want this connection. It's money. Now it's, to me, it's, you know, I could give my time. I can't give money, but I could give my time. And I'll always be willing to do that. And it's not about transactional. It's about building relationships and helping.

If you can help someone, you should help that person. I just remember being that a lone kid that when I asked for help, I didn't get the help that I needed. And I don't want to be in that position again with the people that are around me or anything like that. So it's been a huge learning lesson for me in that regard. And there's a lot of people in this world that look at everything as transactional. I have to comment on that because if you want to know a red flag for failure, If you're alive, if you only do for people with an expectation of something in return, and it's very subconscious, you can be on upwork or Fiver and get your delivery. And all they ask for is a review from somebody in India or Pakistan that's barely making it.

But because you got what you wanted, you won't even do the review because transactional. That or with people. Well, I called him. He called me. He owes me. I ain't calling him. That tit for tat. I'm not going to.

Relationships destroyed because we're on the O system. Just like you said, it's that. That's not a criminal behavior, but it's a red flag for a horrific propensity to lead you into one. People are not only as good as what they can do. They are. valuable because of who they are created in God's image. Now, I heard this guy say, if you make, if you don't make 400 grand a year, you're not a real man.

And I cringed because so lost, we have a culture that equates the value of a man based on what they can do rather than who they are. And that's the dignity that a faith brings is that, like the dignity. gentleman before me, and I can't give away the story, but I mean, it's powerful. And the dignity you showed him, what can, what is it in that he's doing for you? Oh, that would be, it didn't matter. So when you do for people that cannot return, that's the principal Christian value. I do. And don't always expect, well, it was quid pro quo my whole life. And I was a pastor. So you can get sucked into it. And that's a very, very good point that the transactional

identification of the red flag of transactional relationships in marriages even it's like i'm i'm not on that listen i'm i'm grateful i you are valuable if you make five dollars if you if if you're you have value to me i don't care what you've done or been through you are created in god's image ergo you have intrinsic value that is irreplaceable and uh i honor that and and um Yeah, that's a great point you made. So that question your son asked you when you were in prison that second time about why you did that. If he asked you that right now, what would your answer be? Wouldn't change a bit.

I'm not going to try to finesse my way out of my past evil with some trite answer. There are mitigating factors that will help people that were red flags that they ought to be aware of, isolation, not being transparency and so forth. but it's a question that unless you've done on the scale and scope of me, and I can't speak for you, but me especially are guys who have publicly failed and hurt not a victimless crime. The problem with my crime is it didn't just hurt the victims that trusted me. Anytime there's a crime involving position of trust is brutal, even if it's just a financial one.

But I think the minute you start to try to defend, you lost. I learned in prison that if you get in a fight with a 90-year-old woman and lose, you're an idiot, and if you win, you're an idiot, and it's a no-win situation. I learned in prison to avoid all no-win situations. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Not one good thing that's going to happen with the fight at the front of the line at the commissary with a four-hour wait that I'm going to go try to be involved. I mean, there's certain things. The no-win situation is the minute you start defending yourself, you need to know that nobody believes you.

And it took me a while. There's no defense for evil and betrayal. But there is a seeking of forgiveness. There is a humble, there's a repentance. There's a acceptance. Of course, everybody does good things along the way like, oh, yeah, you uncovered fraud. You do, well, a lot of people do good things, but it doesn't negate the evil. And even in basic Judaism, there's nothing that teaches that good works atones for sin,

let alone Christianity or any other faith. It doesn't happen. It's so much so in real life just because you do good. But, Ian, one thing that's never talked about enough is the entitlement factor when you become successful. that I had 82 speeding tickets in my Ferrari because I was 17 or 18 and I had 100 employees and laws don't apply to Barry Minco. The more success you get, the more propensity you have to say the rules don't apply to me. The accounting rules, the revenue recognition rules, the internal control rules,

the board rules, the church elder board rules, Nothing applies to me because do you understand that this place grows because of me? You're here because of me and you start with that attitude. It's over. So I am mindful of the attitude that the more success you get, there's a real temptation of entitlement that certain things no longer apply to you. It's only those mere mortals. Danger.

That was me. I don't know if that was you, But the more success and even, you know, you hear actors admit this later on in their courage. Like, man, I would go here and I thought I was all that. This table was mine. How do you expect me not to feel entitled everywhere I went? People did. I wouldn't have done any better.

What makes this time after prison different than the first time? Oh, a lot of things. Is there going to be a third round? Yeah, no, no, I ain't got it in me. The whole legacy factor, the kids, the wife, the cumulative. impact of your faith, the realization of your mortality, and we had a saying in prison, I ain't going out like that. Remember that thing?

Yeah. Okay. So here's, we can close with this because I know you got interviews and busy, but I didn't mean to ramble. I didn't mean to ramble. You're good. But the issue of legacy was the most significant transformative thing that I have a mentor, Jim Lishfield and Bob Shank and others.

Just into my, okay, you blew it, whatever. You can leverage this for good. You can encourage people. You can give people hope that if you can come back, they can. But you better start thinking your boys, your life. No hearse pulls a U-Ha. So the only thing that lives on after you die, a title will die when you die.

You could say he was the president of Z-Best carpet cleaning. But when I die, that title dies with me. What lives on after you die? That's the most significant thing to me now as it relates to my children, grandchildren, wife, friends. What legacy am I leaving for them that's going to live on? And I think, once you hit 50, I'm 58, you know,

and I feel like 88 the legacy issue I want Ian to sell tickets to my funeral that people will say that dude was there for me when I was hurting that dude helped me get off drugs

that dude took my call all the time he never had his handout he never asked me for no money he was there but quickly the sociological study you know

not unique with me, but 50 people over the age of 95 asked one question. If you had to do it all over again, what would you do differently? 50 people over the age of 95. Now, me, I mean, high school seems like yesterday. I mean, as soon as my face cleared up, my hair fell out, it was like I'm 58 and here I am. It's like it's going to happen. Remember the steroids? 40? I'll never be. 50 people over the 95's old. 50 people. If you had to do it all over again, what would you do? differently. Three things. Risk more, reflect more, do more things that would live on after they died. Risk more, they never started that business. They existed, but they never really lived.

Reflect more, the kids, the wife, the walks, the vacations. They smell the roses along the way kind of thing. But the big one that got me was they looked back on their lives and they wished they could do more things that would live on after they died. And for me, I got a message for people who have no hope and that I am grateful to belong to a faith that teaches, and it's the only one, good people don't go to heaven, forgiven people go to heaven because everybody lives forever somewhere. And I'm no good. And I need to be forgiven.

And he was forgiven much, loves much. And that's a legacy I want to live. I love that. Barry, thank you for coming on the show today, man. It was a pleasure. A total honor. And I will do the carpets. I know that was part of the deal.

They're bad, too. They came with the units. The carpets are. Okay, well, at least I'm not living above my means getting all these retail spaces. Thank you for having me. Question for our YouTube members, our YouTube subscribers and our membership program. How do you discover the show? Because I get all these young people that discover it.

They're out of prison. We don't necessarily get a lot of, I would say, adults that experience federal prison that reach out. Go ahead and say it. That are two-time losers. No, not at all. You know, Matt Cox was on the show. He went through it twice, even though the first time he didn't get prison. I know, but we don't talk about it.

Come on now, everybody knows. Yeah. So how did you find it? Did one of your children pass a show? Yeah, my show. Bro, we live in a tight net community. Ex-cons look out for each other. They don't compete against one another, which is why I love you.

Because you're not on that competing. You don't see like Bitcoin people fighting amongst themselves, do you? No. But we prisoner ex-con podcasters do. Man, I ain't a hater. I love all of them. I love, you're my people, man, and you're far exceeded me on every area. And I, I can't.

You have a movie bit about you. Yeah, yeah. Don't even. The point is, is that I am a huge fan and have nothing but respect for what you did and applaud what you did. And I love what you don't do. See, the great success of people is what they stay out of. And what speaks very loudly about Ian, big, is it met the same, you know. You're not in the negative nonsense.

You're all about affirmation. You're not competing against anybody. You're not talking smack against anybody. Brother, I am too old for any of that. There's no time for that. No time. And listen, it's why you have excellence in what you do because your energy is focused in the right place.

I see people make videos about me that are like in the space or whatever. And I'm like, if you spent that much time to make that video, you could have literally made. a video about what you wanted to do, and it could have been successful when said you're using that energy to come after me. Such a waste of time. And I don't go after anyone. I don't have bad mouth anyone.

You're not raising money. You're not saying. It's crazy. So, but you don't see the Bitcoin. Boy, those, they're united, aren't they? You know, those private equity real estate guys that are fleece and be, they're all friends. And the streamers that get people into shit, too. Oh, my God.

Oh, and crypto. Oh. So, yeah. So much fraud. So little time. Is that where you're on cover next of the next big crypto scam? We'll talk. Too bad you missed out on Bankman Fried, man.

You know what? I feel bad for that guy, actually. I actually feel bad for him because he was used, but he was willing to play just like me. I think he heard himself with the way he handled during on pretrial on supervised release. He got his bond revoked. He definitely made matters worse because he got, you seen it. When you had that much money, like him, he got a lot. He got very lucky with his condition.

The judge gave him chance after chance after chance. You don't mess with the, when they're nice and you. Yeah, because he got to go home on an internet monitor and all this shit. Trevezing gave me the shoe in Terminal Island, 23 hour a day lockdown. But I needed it. Yeah. I was in a hole for a year.