Locked In with Ian Bick - My Experience Working In A Federal Prison | Jill Schlossberg

Episode Date: March 14, 2024

Therapist Jill Schlossberg gives us an inside scoop from her time working in the federal prison system including life behind bars for inmates, unique habits, mental health affects, commissary items & conducting room shakedowns. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Connect with Jill Schlossberg: https://www.instagram.com/floaton79?igsh=anVxYmtxYWd6NzZh https://floatontherapy.squarespace.com/ Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:04:28 - Finding a Passion in Helping Women in Prison 00:09:33 - The Importance of Judging Beyond Paperwork and Criminal History 00:13:57 - Cats and Groundhogs at the College Camp Campus 00:18:11 - Working within a Therapeutic Community 00:22:20 - Manipulation for Treatment and Charges 00:26:19 - Broken Prison System and Reintegration 00:30:46 - Experiencing Working in a Jail 00:35:34 - The Impact of Dehumanization in the Prison System 00:39:59 - Ice Maker Incident 00:44:43 - Seeing a Light at the End of the Tunnel 00:49:01 - Overcoming Adversity in Incarceration 00:53:10 - Sopranos and Going to Therapy 00:57:19 - Vulnerability and Safety in Prison 01:01:55 - Creative Prison Cooking 01:05:58 - Words of Encouragement for Inmates Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

USAA knows dynamic duos can save the day, like superheroes and sidekicks or auto and home insurance. With USAA, you can bundle your auto and home and save up to 10%. Tap the banner to learn more and get a quote at usaa.com slash bundle. Restrictions apply. I got to do room searches. Guys used to bring food and like keep it in there like bunks. And like this one guy was on a protein kick and we found like a dozen hard boiled eggs in his locker the one time. Like the whole unit smelled and we couldn't figure out like what it was.

And it was like, we opened up his locker and it was like, what are you doing? Like I need my protein. Like, you know, I got to have my eggs. I'm like, have like two and make sure you eat them like the whole. Welcome back to another episode of Locked in. We have a unique guest on the show today sharing a very unique point of view. Jill Schlossberg was an employee for the Federal Bureau of Prisons at the Fort Dix Low Security Prison that I myself was formerly incarcerated in.

I'm very excited for you to hear her perspective and my conversation with her as we dive into a behind-the-scenes look from an employee's perspective of the federal prison system. Remember to grab your official locked-in merch at eanbick.com and use code locked-in to get 50% off your order. And while you're on the eanbick.com website, remember to sign up for our mailing list so you could stay updated on all the exciting things we have going on in the locked-in podcast. Now sit back, relax, and get ready to lock in with Jill Schlossberg. Jill, welcome to Locked in.

It's an absolute pleasure to have you today. Thank you so much for having me. I think you're our first former Bureau of Prisons employee. Or is a subcontractor or were you a physical employee? No, I was actually a physical employee. And I was trying to think on the drive, like I was trying to do the math of, was I there when Ian was there? I was like, I don't think I was.

I started in 2012 and then I left in 2013. And you were at Fortex? Yep. This is so cool. Like when you sent me that email, that was like the most excited thing I was, I was like really pumped for it. Me too. Because we've been wanting someone that worked in the federal bureau of prisons.

I'm on a board for reentry and the woman who's the executive director is a former case manager for the FBOP. And, you know, we're trying to get some former guards in the state. stuff. But the fact that I was at Fort Dix, you were there as an employee, and I've dealt with a mental health therapist and psychologists that work there, which they weren't the best to put it lately. I'm sorry. No, it's okay. I mean, I understand like there's a lot of overwhelming circumstances and understaff and it's changed a lot too. And this was 2016. Okay. But why did you decide to get into that field? So it's funny. Like I was trying to think of what possible

questions you could have to ask me and I'm like this is the one he's going to ask me and I feel like everything kind of happens organically like in my life like my goal was never to be oh I'm going to work in a prison or I'm going to work in a jail like my goal was always how can I help people because I always root for the underdog like in everything because I myself I consider myself an underdog like in high school I was bullied relentlessly and And I never wanted anybody to feel the way that I felt. I never wanted anybody to feel like they were alone or like they couldn't reach out for help. So I went to school and I changed majors so many times.

I was a business major. I was going to be a teacher. I was going to be on Wall Street making six figures and all this crazy stuff. And I started taking psychology classes and I was like, okay, this is interesting. Like, what can I do with this? And I'm here to tell anybody who's looking to get a bachelor's in psychology, you can't do anything with nothing. Like, keep going, keep going with school. So I gave, after I graduated, I gave it like a year and then I went back for my master's.

And that's when things kind of started happening. Like I met some amazing professors and looking as to what I could do with this degree. And it was okay, well, you can become, you know, you can continue to go on to school and become, a therapist or you can, you know, work in hospital schools. Like the big thing is you want to work in a school because you'll get summers off. And I was like, kind of doesn't like really intrigue me. So I met this professor named Dr. Aileen and she was amazing. She had worked with women who were in prison.

She had worked with women's substance users. And I was like, listen, I think this is what I want to do. And she said, okay, you can have a passion for it. But if you don't do it, you're not going to. know if you like it and you're not going to know if you're good at it. So I tried to volunteer for an inpatient program and they were like, you don't have enough experience. And I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, free labor. Like, you get to teach me, but I don't have enough experience. Okay, cool. So then I got a job working at an inpatient women's facility and it was chaos. It was hectic.

The women had so, so, so many just issues between losing their kids, between chronic medical issues, between mental health, between fights going on, between frattenization because it was a male and female inpatient facility. Men were obviously on one side, women on the other, but fraternizing and all this stuff. So it was so chaotic. And I was like fresh out of school and like, what am I going to do with myself and trying to find myself? I was like, this is just, this is just a lot. So I stayed there for about a year and then I left and started doing assessments through a company who's contracted with, in New Jersey, it's called DCP. And P, so Division of Child Protection and Permanency. And in, I guess, Connecticut, it's like Division of Child Protection, like, DCP.

I started doing assessments and it was minimal client contact. I probably saw these people maybe like twice max three times. And we did drug screens. And yes, I had to do drug screens on females. And some of those stories were just wild. Like I just, like to think about it now is just like I can't believe it. Some of it. Like I had a woman one time because where we used to have to go to do like the, where we used to have to take the drug screens there was like this little chair.

So I was like trying to fill out the form, like get it done as quickly as possible. And she's standing over me with her pants dropped going, look, I don't have any drugs inside me. And I'm like, okay, that's cool. Like I'm just here to take your drug screen. Make sure it's monitored and we can talk outside. I did that for like three and a half years. And then the BOP opened up a position. And I was like, oh, this is going to be great.

Because in my mind, this was the step I needed to kind of. of go the federal way and like maybe do like FBI or DEA and I'm like okay if I can get my foot in the door then I'm golden so I filled out like the paperwork and the way they do it in the feds is when you you have to answer basically I want to say if I can remember like 10 to 15 questions and the way it works is you're either going to be qualified disqualified or best qualified And the questions are wonky. They're repetitive. It's like for people who have taken like a law enforcement test.

They're going to ask you the same question four different ways to see how you answer it. And lo and behold, I best qualified. And I was like, oh my God, this is like this is crazy. So then I had to get a background check done. And they go back like 10 years. It's one step below like really high security clearance. Like the only thing I didn't have to do was like a polygraph. So they interviewed like my landlord, my friends, the people I worked with.

I almost didn't get the job funny enough because I had a credit card in collections. And they run your credit and they're like, you need to get this squared away in like the next like week. Because if you don't, we can't offer you the job. And I was like, holy shit. I was like really for like a $200 credit card? Okay. So I got that squared away. And, you know, I was signed up.

and from there, you know, Fort, Fort Dix was, it was interesting. It really was like I met some, I met some interesting people. We had to do like on the job training like our first week and we met everybody from Fort Dix, like all different departments. And one of the biggest things stuck out for me and it still sticks out for me is I met an EMT and he said two things. he was like, you're never going to have to worry about the inmates. He's like, you won't have to worry about them. He's like, you know why they're here? He's like, just you're not going to have to worry.

And then the second thing he said was, just remember, you are one mistake or one bad move away from where they all are. And that to me resonates with every client I've seen since then, every person that I worked with, especially those who get involved in, like, the legal system, who get incarcerated. Because everybody has a story to tell. And if you judge somebody based on their paperwork, like their, you know, pre-sentencing report, if you base them on, you know, past criminal history, like, you're only judging them on a small piece of their life.

Like, you don't know what happened before then. You don't know what's going to happen after, like, hopefully they get out. It's just that was like the biggest piece of information and like knowledge. It's just stuck with me and it will continue to stick with me. It's also very biased. Like when you see the pre-sentence report that the probation officer who wasn't even tied to that individual's case, like my pre-sentence officer wasn't the person that wrote that report. So he was a third party that just literally took what the government had to say input at it. And that kind of affected my whole entire state too because the case manager's.

read that. Everyone reads that. And at a low security prison, it's not like, I mean, there are people that have killed people that have worked their way down and stuff, but like the majority of the people are not that. And you kind of like people form opinions based on that. And like you just said, that you hit the nail on the head, that everyone has a story, which is why I like this platform, because people get to share that story and kind of change the stigma. Definitely. Now, you were saying before you got to Fort Dix, you kind of had like a bottom of the barrel type of job. Do you think that kind of like detours individuals who are passionate about their field to be maybe a little less passionate and not kind of give the care that they can.

I think that like in the therapeutic world, everybody's goal is to always do like private practice. Like I want to work for myself. I want to have these like clients who pay like $300, you know, a session. Like I know I will never be extremely wealthy in my in my career trajectory because I see how expensive therapy is for people and like I just like if you make $30,000 a year, how am I going to charge you $300 for a session? I think that there is such a need for really good therapy and longer stays, especially with people who are recovering from substance use and like, you know,

mental health issues. I remember when so long ago, I was at the facility. that I was at and people could stay for a year. Like, they could be in treatment for a year and you actually got to see this change and you got to see the growth and you got to see like just the amazing process happen, you know, like when the light bulb moment happens when they got it. And like now people are fighting for like 14 day stays and 28 day stays and proving to insurances that this person is sick enough to need treatment.

And I've seen it on both ends. I've seen it from the care side, but I've also seen it from like the financial side and having to like fight with insurances or, you know, oh, this patient's ready to go home. And it's like, okay, but they just completed detox. Like, how can you send them back home? Like, they need longer care. So I think it just kind of encompasses everything. Like I would never want to deter somebody who's coming out of college to be like, don't do this. In fact, I would say try it.

Just try everything. Like, I'm a huge proponent of try everything. You're interested in a job. Try it because you never know what you'll meet, who you'll meet, excuse me, and you never know what opportunities you might, you might not seek out unless you go for it. No, absolutely. So Fort Dix, I always describe it in my videos as like a college campus was like my first impression of it. And people are like, how does it look like a college?

How does it resemble that? Can you describe what you thought of Fort Dix and what exactly the... Enjoy every day like it's the weekend at Treasure Island with special rates of only $79 midweek. Could it get any better? It does. Get free parking too at Treasure Island while staying in the center of the strip. With summer coming, enjoy all your favorites, steps away from your room, including their world-class spa, classic Vegas steakhouse, and tropical resort-style pool.

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So Fort Dix has two campuses. You have your west and your east. I'm trying to remember even what campus I was in. It was so long ago. Guys are really just kind of like hanging out all over the place. Like, you know, you have your little pockets of people. You know, nobody was really like rowdy. Everybody just kind of like doing their own thing.

feeling like each other out. But there is like, I could definitely see like a college campus because there's a lot of like camaraderie, especially when people are housed together or, you know, they're like doing the same things. Like if they're working at the same job or they're building like these different type of relationships, whether they're like, you know, father's son or like brother to brother or like best friends. So I can see that. And like when I was there, I mean, they were allowed to have emails. They were, like, commissary was crazy on the feds.

Like, I laugh. Like, Nike, guys could buy Nike sneakers and they could buy, like, huge, like, I was laughing, like, 12 packs of soda. Like, commissary day was great because my office was, like, right out the window from where they would pick it up. And I'd see guys, like, running with just, like, 12 packs of sodas and, like, new sneakers. And I'm trying to think what else at that time. I think they could buy, like, an, maybe an iPod or, like, they could get the G-shop. watches, you know, so it was just like buying new boots and everything. So I could definitely see how it was described as like a college campus because, you know, what else is like,

what else is going around? Like on, like people just hanging out. Like what else is there to do? Like get to know people. And there's different buildings. It's like, it's huge. I think there's like 2,500 inmates on each side. And there's a lot of cats, like stray cats running around. I know someone who adopted two of them. Like an inmate adopted? No. Somebody that I work. with. She used to, she took the cats. Were you there for like the groundhog invasion? No, I don't. So when we were there, we had groundhogs and like they were huge, like gigantic. And they would run around the entire compound. And it was like, I guess the cats must have chased the groundhogs out, but the groundhogs would burrow underneath the buildings. So you'd like walk outside and you'd see

these like huge holes and there would be like groundhogs coming out. Some guy worked as actually a baby groundhog ran up his leg while he was walking on the compound. So I guess the groundhogs are no more. But yeah, we had the cats and we had the groundhogs too. Yeah, that was like the weirdest thing. I saw the cats. It was just like 30 or 40 wild cats just roaming around. Inmates are feeding them.

They stand outside like the Chow Hall. It was crazy. Was your office in the doctor's like building? No. So we were, I wish I could remember the exact building. East Campus, one of the, like for, we were probably the closest building to 35 where like the fence was and where, you know, people are coming inside and out.

Packages were getting thrown over sometimes. But my office was literally, I was with them. So the guys were in police barrack. I'm not police barracks. They were an army barracks. And there were, I want to say like six men to a cell, maybe four or six men to a room. and what we had was they would be on like the right side of the building, and there would be like a small corridor,

and then our offices would be to the left. So where the stairwell was was the gap between where they slept, and then the other side was where we would run like program, and our offices would be. Oh, so were you in the Ardap building? Yes, I was an Ardap. Okay, so, you know, that must have been the west side because that right overlooks the commissary.

Then that was it. on the West side, because Eastside commissary is a little bit different. I don't think it was next. There's no ARDAP on East Side, at least when I was there. I'm glad, see, I'm glad one of those are members. I got a picture to tell the stories for a living, so I got to remember everything. Yep, I was a drug treatment specialist. Okay, interesting.

Yeah. Very interesting. So what was like a typical day like when you walk in, are you going through the same security precautions? So I, it's funny, I still have my belt at home. I had to get, you know, a belt and chain. and we had what they called chits, which looked like their little circular, almost like, like, coins in like Atlantic City or Vegas, like little chip. So we would have to go and we would have to turn in those chits for keys and for like a radio. So I put the radio on my belt.

I had my keys. I locked on my keys. And then I would just walk in. Security clearance is obviously like no cell phones, nothing like that because it did go through like we went through a metal detector and then our bags went through. the metal detector. And then we just walk, like, we just walk the compound. And, you know, just see people, like, if we had, you know, clients who were, like, you know, on the compound, you know, they might say hi to us.

We might say hi to them. But really, it was just, like, a straight walk to the building. Like, there was, like, for me, there was never anything like cat calling. There was never anything like that. Like, I just went to work and did my job and then got to the office. and we'd start with like morning meeting and, you know, so our DAP is a, what they call a modified therapeutic community. So we're basically like the community runs itself.

So anything that's going on gets kind of handled by the community. So we have, we had like structure, which are like the, like, for lack of better term, like the heads of the community. And they would, you know, if guys were doing anything that they weren't supposed to do, they would pull them up or they would. you know, like, for lack of a better term, like discipline them and, you know, really just getting that sense of like socialization, community, like, right and wrong. So as far as, like, my role in R-DAP, I really, like, I wasn't able to do, like, therapy. So my role was pretty much to every three months we did treatment plans on the guys and you know we had to just make sure that we were following up with them and I ran groups and the groups were long like they were at

three hour intervals and like I know myself if I'm doing like a training after like 20 minutes I am zoned out and these guys were just always programming and you know once the groups were done for the day. I might meet with somebody to discuss, like I said, their treatment plan. But as far as, like, therapy, we were, we were really, like, hands off, like, unless something, like, major happens. Like, if, you know, somebody broke, like, a major rule and we had to go on lockdown. But, like, that was pretty much, like, again, for, like, the whole compound. So, yeah, it was very much, like, a hands-off thing. Like, if guys wanted to, like, talk to one of us, I don't want to say it was almost like frowned upon but like I can remember one time somebody was in my office and they were talking

about something that like had happened at home and they just wanted to like get some perspective and one of like the staff was like you know like what are you doing here like if you have a problem like you need to go talk about it with like the guys and you know I was like I'm sorry like I didn't mean to get you in trouble and he's like no he's like I didn't mean to get you into trouble I was like it's fine like whatever so the like I said the community really just like represents itself. And that was kind of like our role to like help keep the community in line as much as we could, but without like overstepping, so to speak.

And RDAP is it incentivizes individuals because they get a year off their sentence if they're eligible for it. Yeah. And eligibility, the biggest ones that deter people from being eligible are if you have a arson charge and I believe a gun charge. those are like the two big ones because I had I went through a lot of guys PSIs and checked and see if they were eligible and things like that and some people weren't and some people weren't but yeah everybody was like oh get a year of your sentence and go to a halfway house like you know this is great and it's like you got to do some work like you can't like just bullshit the program and think that like you're going to be done you know you're going to get out and everything because just as fast as you can get in if you're not progressing like we had the right to tell you that like this wasn't working for you. You know, like you had to leave. Yeah, and, you know, lawyers do tell their clients to say on your PSI, you have drug use. That's surprised.

If I had known that, I would have done that. I just said I had, like, minimal. I smoked the little weed in middle school, and they didn't let me into the program because I would have that time off. Listen, I'm not surprised. We, you know, we talk about, like, the things that you do to, like, get people into treatment and, like, get them help. Like, I can remember, like, hearing stories about, like, because it used to be so

hard to get into, like, detoxes. So we would tell people, like, take beer and, like, pour a can of beer on you and just, like, go to the hospital and tell them, like, that you really, really, really need to get into, like, treatment. So that doesn't surprise me. It's, like, the same reason why people, a lot of times will say, you know, instead of telling that, like, oh, I, I, you know, I'm a dealer. Oh, I, you know, I smoke. Like, I, you know, I smoke weed or I use heroin to, you know, to get the charges dropped because conspiracy to distribute is a lot less time than possession. So, yeah. And, I mean, Ardap does have kind of a bad rep among other inmates because they refer to it as like you have to be willing to snitch on each other, I guess, in the program.

Did you get that a lot? Like the tattletailing a little bit? So when we do like what they call pull-ups, so in morning meeting, we'll have like the day before we would have guys like write things like that they wanted to say to other people like, hey, you know, I didn't like it when you did this because, you know, it violates. or it showed like this negative behavior. We had some guys who were with it and who had no problem with it, but other guys who were like, you know, like, I'll maybe do it like once in a while, like, just like get in the program. Like, I'm laughing because you said snitching.

I thought you were going to, I thought you were going to say, because we got a bad rap as drug treatment specialist. We were called hug a thugs. What does that mean? We were like, you know, we were like the, not the goody goodies, but like, you know, we were like hug of thugs. like everybody was great and everybody's wonderful and nobody did anything wrong and we just want to help people we want to make the world like a better place like we don't see like you know this person

how they've been incarcerated for such a long time and all the things that they've done like we just want to be there to help people and I thought like that was such like a shitty way to to think about us because again all we're trying to do is is just help the guys get through their time as best as they can and help them learn as much as they can and also too and interesting things. So when I went for federal training, I had to, so I had to learn like everything, like how to be, literally how to be a corrections officer. So I learned how to shoot an M16. I learned how to shoot a nine. I shot a shotgun. Like I had to qualify. I learned to put handcuffs on people, all this stuff. But every other, every other position at Fort Dix had to do a custody post at some point,

whether you wanted to or not, like, it came your time during the year, and it was like, okay, you got to, you know, you got to work this shift over there, you know, whatever. We didn't have to. And our contract, we were not augmented. So as drug treatment specialists, we never had to worry about being like, oh, it's Jill's turn to work her custody post. No, I don't have to do that, like, unless I want to. So I think that's probably another reason why we were, we kind of got a bad breath too. Yeah, that's interesting because when I was like,

in the shoe or even just in the compound, you would see like nurses would be ordered to work shifts. And especially now with the staffing issues, the BOP faces, nurses, I don't think doctors, but I saw nurses because they'd be in like the military type outfit, like the blue. So they would be ordered. There would be other individuals that worked in admin and stuff. They would be walking the units. And from an inmate perspective, those were always the best times because they tended to not necessarily care. They would just sit in the office because they don't want to be there, but they're mandated to do it.

Nope. And anytime there was a guard that was ordered to do overtime, they weren't causing any trouble for inmates. They were just sitting there. So that was our time to shine. I don't blame you. When the cats are away, the mice will play. Yep. What do you think was the most surprising thing from an outsider, civilian's perspective, on Fort Dix and the prison system? I think that, you know, that was kind of like my start of really learning how, like, broken the system is. Like, being an outsider looking in and, like, just hearing, you know, like, there's so many things that are needed. Like, you can't expect somebody who's done 20, 30, 40 years in jail to have it all together and then just, like, send the person on their way. Like, I wish there was more schooling done.

I wish there were more like, you know, because at Fort Dix, the, like, the only, like, real job you could have that made money was, like, unicorn. So, you know, you're making stuff for other prisons. You're building furniture, things like that. But, like, once you leave, they're like, what are you going home to? Or, you know, maybe get a job in the kitchen. Like, I know you worked in the kitchen. Yeah, the bakery. Yes.

That didn't end well for me. But it's like, what do you, like, you've got to give somebody skills. You've got to give somebody a purpose. Like, once they leave, if they don't have that support, if they don't have that family, if they are, let's say, you know, because we had people who were, like, iced detainees and things like that. Like, what are you sending people out to? Like, if you don't give people a reason to stay outside of jail and to not engage in those behaviors,

you're literally sending them out to send them right back in. from an outside perspective, I really wish that there was more like, more like just programs to, to like help people reaclimate themselves back into society and doing it, you know, doing it slowly and allowing the, allowing the inmate to decide, like, what it is that they want to do and where it is that they want to go. Like personally, I would love to see, I would love, love, love, to see like peer recovery training in the prisons. I think that would be amazing. I think that would be a great like outlet for people to do and be able to give back to,

you know, to the community and then also learn to have that sense of strength within themselves to know that they can keep going because they get to help other people, especially from where they were. And states are doing that. Like I was in Arkansas and that's a huge program they have there. I love that. So if a tough on crime state like Arkansas, like Arkansas. Arkansas is willing to let individuals that have been incarcerated back into prison to do peer recovery.

There's no reason why the federal system shouldn't be allowing that. I'll tell you, I love Jimmy's story. Oh, Jimmy McGill. I love Jimmy. His story just like was, I was like, if this guy can make it, like, anybody can do it. Yeah. It's really that the world is everyone's oyster. There's so much potential to do different things.

and break down the stigma about felons not being able to be successful. And I was having a conversation with someone the other day. And we were just talking about how, like, now it's like a badge of honor. Like, have it out there, you know? Don't be afraid to tell people that you were an addict or you went to prison or this and that. Because not all, it's kind of cool, like, to share the stories and to talk about it. Not as like a being proud thing, but just use it. Like, don't let people belittle you for having that a part of your past.

No, and don't like, don't let people define you. Like, you are so much more than, like, your prison bid. You are so much more than, like, your addiction. You are so much more than, like, your mental health issue. And, like, if you don't, like, if you don't prove that to not only the world but to yourself, like, that's always who you're going to be remembered as, like, oh, you know, not this is Ian. You know, he's got this amazing podcast on Spotify. But this was Ian who did three years in prison.

And it's like that was one portion of my life. And that's not, you know, that's not who I am now, change person. Yeah. It'll always be a part of me, just that past and that record. And I own that. And I wouldn't have what I have now without that, you know, so everything happens for a reason. It does. But like, again, everything, like I say, everything happens organically the way that it's supposed to.

Like, I never knew I'd be working at Port Dix. I never knew then I would go on to work at a county correctional center, which would was so different than Fort Dix. Like Fort Dix, I was, I had, like, keys and I could let myself in and out as much as I wanted to. Transitioning from there, because I only worked there for, like, about a year. My dad got sick. And where I live, the commute was an hour and a half every day. And my car literally went on fire at one time.

I had, like, a 96 accord, and I was like, oh, yeah, I'm 75 miles or 100. 50 miles a day, this thing's going to like blow up at some point. So I moved closer. I took a job being like a caseworker. I hated it. I wasn't good at it. I just and then a position to open up at the county through a substance use treatment program. They had implemented into Hudson County Jail.

And I signed up and I got the position. And that's where I don't. I don't want to say I felt what it was like more to be an inmate because I've never been incarcerated so I don't know. But I used to have to ask, you know, can you let me in? Can you let me out? Can you open the door so I can use the bathroom? Like all of those things that we take for granted, like those little bit of freedoms because we are civilians, that was when it, again, it really like hit me. And that was when I learned to even more how broken like the system is.

Absolutely. Do you think that the federal prison system gave you the resources to do your job correctly and efficiently? I think so. Like, I learned that, you know, that people are going to be who they are. But if you don't allow them to be and see them as genuinely, like, if you don't allow them to be human, then you're doing yourself like such a disservice. All right, class settled down. Today's lesson is on the Arco Rewards app. Try to stay with me.

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Who available at this payment? PH 71529, PH7159. PH714659. Like that pinnacle moment when the guy said to me, like, you're one bad move or one mistake away from being where they are. And not seeing that at the forefront when I met everyone. And because I live in Hudson County, I saw people that I knew. Like my first day on the tier, I saw my friend's brother. And I was like, oh, shit.

Like, I can't be out here. Like, if he's out here, like, I know. that that's not like a good thing. That's like a breach of security or whatever. So I couldn't be on the tier with him. But I think it gave me like a sense of, of like more of a sense of purpose. Like I, I think that like I said to you, I will always fight for the underdog. And that's a population that really needs more resources. Like not only while they're inside, but also when they're outside. So, you know, like reentry is a huge. It's a, you know, it's a, it's a big, it's a big thing and not just taking people and just saying like, okay, like the expectation is you get a job. Here,

we're going to help you get a job. Like, you know, where are they, you know, where are they going to live? What, you know, what are they going to do for food? Like, what are they going to do for other resources? So you have to think about the person, like holistically when you're looking at somebody. Like you can't just, you know, again, look at them as somebody who is, struggling with substance use and like that's the only thing that makes them who they are. But yeah, I think Fort Dick started me on the trajectory to really like love working with that population, being able to see the process of change, but also coming to recognize that I can only do so, like I can only do so much like fighting the court and sending the court's letters and telling

them how much they're progressing and, you know, people are doing so great like the judge has the final say and somebody who may have like may have like the top tier of structure may just do everything that they need to do may be like this perfect person perfect inmate follow all the rules and then they come back and they're like yeah I got you know I'm going down for a five flat yeah it's like oh how much information do you get on an inmate like say a new inmate I walk in into your office as a federal employee, what can you find out about me? So everything. So federal, I could find out everything.

I got your PSI. I could read that. I had access to your, I had access to how much cash you had in your commissary on your phone. I had access to your phone calls. Like I could tap in and listen, which I did occasionally. There was nothing crazy. Every new client I had on my caseload, I tried to read their PSI, like front. back because like I wanted to know some things before going in but I didn't want to pass judgment.

Like I kind of wanted to know like the reason why you're here but then like get to talk to you and find out maybe what, again, what things they missed. Like you had said like the person who did your PSI like barely knew you like didn't know you just like took the information from the courts and was like, okay, here you go. And I had this one guy and he was like five foot nothing and And he was from, I'll never forget, Newport News of Virginia. He talked with this heavy accent. And he came in on like a 32, there were like 32 co-defendants on his, you know, in his PSI. And I'm reading this.

And I'm like, can you tell me what you, like, tell me what you did? And I said, you know, why are you here? And he's like, I'm here on a conspiracy to distribute heroin. And I was like, okay. I was like, did you do it? He's like, no. I said, okay, so everybody says, no. Like, did you do it?

He said, Jill, he said, if you, like, if you read my charges, he said, I got caught on a wiretap. He's like, that's why I'm here. He said, if you read, like, if you, you know, like, if you continue to read it, he was like, I played such a small. And he did. He was like, the PSI was like, maybe like 60, 70 pages. and his portion was probably like a paragraph. And I was like, okay, so what happened? He said, Jill, I said, I was an addict.

He's like, and I bought weight. He said, so that's why. He said, I would get my Social Security. He's like, I lived with family. And he was like, oh God, he was like maybe 50s, 60s. And he said, I got my Social Security. And I would call up my dealer. He said, I bought heroin.

He's like, and I would buy weight. He said, that's how they got me. he's like that's literally how I got caught up in this he said I don't he's like look at me he's like I'm this tall guy he's to like shuffle around like he's like I'm not moving fast so I just he goes I used and because I got me on wiretap buying so much he was like there's no way that this person is like using this he's like but I did he's like like I said I get my social security the beginning of the month I'd buy what I needed for as long as I could and that was it and and he was there for like five years.

Wow. From a mental health standpoint, how do you feel about the prison system taking away inmates' first names where it's just referred to, like an inmate's referred to as their last name? I mean. What's like the psychology behind that? For me, like I would never call you, hey, Bick. Like, I would probably call you Mr. Bick or I'd call you Ian. Like, I think that for me, it's always a sign of, it's a sign of respect.

Like, I just, I don't even know what the psychology is behind that. I don't know if it's to, like, to mean people. I don't know if it's to, like, you think about, like, the military and people in the military usually called by their last names. I don't know what the psychology is behind that. Like, but I know for myself, like, I would never call someone, like, just their last name. Like, I don't know if I'd want to be called, hey, Slashberg. Slashberg, what are you doing over there?

I feel like it's almost like demeaning and like demoralizing to a certain extent. Like if you're going to call me by my last name, then like put, you know, put like Miss Slashberg or for you like Mr. Bick. Like it denotes that again like you're a human being. Like you're not just, you're not just last name. Like what happened to my first name. So I don't know. I don't know. Well, there would be some case managers or counselors.

They just call you your last name and then your ID number. And they'll shout that like over the loud speaker to come see them. and they could be really rude and nasty sometimes. I couldn't tell you what anybody, like, I never knew anybody's number, anything like that. Like they were, again, they were, like, if you were in my program, you'd be Mr. Bicker, you'd be Ian. Hey, Ian, can I see, you know, can I talk to you? Hey, Ian, there's something that you need to fill out. Like, I don't know.

Yeah. It's just, again, I think that a lot of things that you take away from people, like, what is, what is the reasoning behind it? Like, does it really rehabilitate them? or does it cause them to become more agitated, more violent? Like, I can tell you, like, I can tell you a funny story. So I was, first I was amazed at the stuff inmates could do with food. Like, I literally wanted a recipe on how somebody made fried rice with a microwave. Incredible.

It smelled, like, I would be walking down the stairs going, like, who's cooking? What are they doing with a microwave? Or a honey bun. Like just crazy, crazy, crazy stuff. So the guys used to have ice makers because they couldn't, you know, you can't just go to the chow hall and get ice when you want it. So they had this huge ice maker in our area. And one time one of the staff members went and used their ice maker. And the guys were, it was like, it was bananas.

And she couldn't understand why they got so upset. And I'm like, listen, I get it. It's ice. It's just ice. Like 25 pounds pumps out every like 10 minutes. But it's theirs. Like, we can go take our keys and walk out of the gate and go to, I don't even remember what the closest. It may be probably a Wawa.

We can go to Wawa and we can get ice for ourselves. like this is theirs like this is the one thing like oh hey I can get I can get ice whenever I want it like you don't need to take their stuff like they get so like they get so few like privileges and things like that why do it like it's yours like I'm not going to take it from you like there's been enough stuff taken from you while while you're here yeah so did you ever have the food in the chow hall at all so we went to we went to like see the chow hall um no i never did because again i always felt it was like a sign of respect like this is your you know like this is your place like i'm not going to i'm not going to intervene and then

also too like i feel that it puts people on a different like it puts people on a different level like i never wanted anybody to see me as better than but i never wanted anybody to get confused with like oh you know like we can like we can ask her for favor or like, you know, we can, you know, if we wanted to, like, we could easily, like, manipulate her. So was there ever a time you felt in danger working there? No. So not, not at the federal level. Like, the guys were just, I don't know.

They were just, like, no, I never felt disrespected. I never felt like I need to fear for my life. Like, somebody was going to, like, put hands on me. At the county, though, I had, like, an interesting encounter. So because our guys programmed, they were in a different, like a different mod. So they would sleep, like the way it was set up is there were like bunks behind this like little wall. And then there would be tables and chairs. We would run group.

And then there would be like these stainless steel tables. And then they had like a wreck yard, which was probably no bigger than the studio. And there was like a gate, you know, so like there was there was. fresh air coming through, and there was one, one like, not pushup, pushup bar, but there was just one like bench where guys would try to like, okay, wait, you know, use the bench to weight lift or whatever. And I, like, my first or second week of work in there, I walked in there because I was looking for, I was looking for somebody.

And maybe I'm naive, but I don't want to say I don't have, like, I have some fear about going into new places, but I've learned after having to do a group with 70 women, if you walk into a situation and you're like really scared or afraid or nervous like they're going to spot you out like regardless so i walked in and this guy comes up to me and he's like this six foot two like 250 pound guy and he like starts walking up to me and he's got his fist boiled up and he starts like smack in his wrist or starts smack in his hand and he's like miss jill you afraid of me and here i am this is like you know week two on the job and i'm like and i just looked at him and I thought to myself for a quick instance

I could run out the door and then he's gonna know like I'm shit scared or I could just talk to him and be like no I'm not afraid of you but like could you get out of my way because I'm looking for somebody and he was like I'm Mr. Jill you got that you got that off and like that interaction was so quick and could have went like so different

but he knew that I'm just here to again do a job I have no stake in the game with what happens with you and I just need to to get my client and I'll be out of here in a couple minutes. So no, I never felt threatened when I was like working in either position because I never felt like I did anything that disrespected somebody. Like there's a level of respect when you're out on the street and then there's a level

of respect when you're in prison and in jails that like there are things you, there are things you can and can't do, but the potential for violence is greater. in there versus out here like i saw a therapist one time put her hand up in front of a guy's face and i was like oh man i was like i was like she's so lucky that like he didn't like you wouldn't do that on the street why do you think that it's okay to do it to somebody just because you're a therapist and they're in here for like a drug charge yeah it just didn't make any sense to me absolutely Have you noticed any like weird habits that guys do in prison or rules? Like I noticed very weird things like kneeling to pee and just like a variety of things that you would never expect as a civilian on the street.

So it wasn't so much like in prison, in the jail. But when I left, I was working in an outpatient for a while. And we had this guy who used to like guys would talk about doing the washing my clothes in the shower. like washing my underwear in the shower and things like that and it was like okay that i could understand but we had this guy who used to take spoons like he would go into wendies and take this is before you could only get one he would take handfuls of spoons and he would like keep them everywhere so i was like why and he's like well because when i was in jailies like spoons were like you had to carry your spoon like everywhere you went like you would never get another one like this was like the only one that

you could have. He said, but I was so embarrassed because when he met his wife, she was looking for like a tissue or something and she opened up the glove box and like 40 spoons came flying out. He was like, and I had to explain this to her. Um, no, like guys, no, probably because there was, I don't know, like, no, no habits that like I can really like think of, probably because it wasn't like that close quarters. Like for somebody who was in there with them, you could probably, Say like 100. It was like knocking on the table. Like never saw guys do that.

Nothing like that. Do you find it interesting when you watch our show and it kind of relates to how you, what you worked at? You kind of see it on like the other end of the spectrum. That gives you a good perspective. I do. And I think that it gives me the hope that everybody who comes out of jails and prisons and institutions can see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Like things just don't have to stop there. Like, it's so funny to, like, how I found your show.

Like, my brother and I, we were driving home from, like, Quick Check. And he's like, you know what Ian Bick is? And I was like, no. I was like, who that? And he's like, he's got a podcast, you got to listen to. Because he knows that, like, I love, like, I love things about second chances. That's like, you know, like I said, I always root for the underdog. And he was like, you got to listen to him.

And I was like, okay. So he was like, just pick one. He's like, just listen. And I'm like, so. I listened to one and I was like, oh, this is really good. So then, like, I just was steamrolling through the episodes. And I would tell him, I was like, did you hear that one about, did you listen to the one about, you know, did you listen to Chicky? And he's like, no, who's that?

And I'm like, you got to listen to that episode. I was like, he's great. And I was like, just listen to one with Chad Marks. And he's like, no, who's at? And I'm like, you got to listen to that one. And I bought his book and I'm like halfway through it. And his book is great. like all these redemption stories like that you get to hear because once the guys were gone,

unless they wrote you like letters. And I did get a few letters to find like how some people were doing. But like that's kind of it. Like you never want them to come back. But it's always something that runs a potential to happen. So it's so amazing to see and hear a platform where like you get to hear the good stuff. Like you get to listen to what happens when people. are really able to overcome adversity and able to overcome the trauma that they've experienced.

And like whether or not people are ever willing to admit it, because, you know, rehabilitation and correctional centers, like there is so much trauma that happens when you get incarcerated. Like, it's just, you know, and I don't think people recognize that. I think that people look at, okay, well, like, you know, you did your time and then you get out and, like, that's it like everything's supposed to be like okay but like what were the things that you experienced what were the things that you saw like you know people who are in like pens and in highs and things like that like watching people get murdered or stabbed or even watching people get beat up or you know being um you know being exhorted like yourself and just like everything like

you have to go through and like listening to like you know when dylan was on the show and how he was you know he was raped while you're like you know he was raped while he was in prison. And then, you know, you come out and you're expected to like, everything's fine. Like, you did your time and like that's it. But it is really traumatizing to come out of those places. And then, like I said, the expectation is you're fine. You did your time.

Like, you're good. Like, you did what we asked for. Here you go. You'll be okay. But, like, I love on your show because, like, a lot of times you'll ask people, you know, did you get mental health treatment for that? Like, did you talk to a counselor? Did you, you know, speak to anybody who can help you?

Like, did you talk to your family? Nope. Nope. And like the majority of the people in the show are just like, no, I didn't. And like, where does that go? Like, where does all that trauma go? Does it get put to good use? Does it get stuffed down as far as it possibly can in, like, a deep, dark place?

So nobody sees it, but then has a potential to rear its ugly head at some point. Like, I don't know. Yeah, I mean, it's, I mean, men in prison frown. upon like going to talk to someone for help like if you went to the medical building you know you kind of got I would see guys like lie and say yeah I just wanted to see the doctor but really they're going to see like the therapist or the psychologist and there's just that stigma and I kind of had that stigma too until I got out and I was I did court ordered therapy for a year and that was great and I never went back to it because it took a while to open up to that woman who was she was in like

her 80s and she gave me a different perspective of life and then when she left If she retired, I got stuck with a guy who it just wasn't the same vibe and I never really went back. And now I'm lucky to have this because this is like you could talk open and freely, which is what I would get with someone else. And I'm comfortable in this setting because I kind of have like the control over it. But it could be intimidating to people too, especially with the court ordered ones where, you know, you're kind of forced to be there. And then you don't know if that other person's having an opinion of you and they have that information on you. it's difficult to navigate, I think, especially for a man. Yeah.

And especially, like, I, it's so funny. Like, I guess I'm, like, a Latin for punishment. Like, I loved working with, like, mandated clients because those were the ones who were the most challenging, but those were also the ones who were the most rewarding. Like, it took a while. Like, it took a long time with some of them. But, like, once you gain that trust, like, there was something to be said. And, you know, I, like, it's so funny because who I am is always who I am.

Like the therapist is still this person. Like I don't know how to do that. So, Ian, how does that make you feel? Let's talk about it. Like, my voice doesn't change. Like, this is who I am all the time. And for some people, it's great. For other people, they're like, you know,

oh, like, she's not that professional. But I do. I enjoy working with the clients who, like, I don't want to say that they don't have trust, but that it takes a while because the report, rapport is a lot better. Like once you have it, because once you've gained somebody's trust, they really open up to you and then they really start to do the work on themselves. Do you ever watch Sopranos? Oh, God, I'm going to get so many, I'm going to get so many

judgments on this. Okay. So I've watched a couple episodes. I've never finished the whole season, the series, just like I've never finished the wire. Go ahead. Feel free to pass judgment. Go ahead. I'm watching it now, and you literally, when you did that impression, you sound like the therapist or the rame broco that the yeah the psychologist on it when you did that voice that was really spot on um and it's interesting how much of like uh that promotes like going to therapy and the stigma like of that of how like other men look at it and then you know tony soprano is seeing her and and it's helping him you know figure out things in it in his life and stuff i think that's a great they they really hit the nail on the head with that for something i love i really love doing what i

Like I couldn't see myself doing anything else. Like I had this conversation with somebody actually before I got here. I said, listen, I tried. Like I'll dip my toe in the water of something new. And then I'm like, no, I can't. Like I just, I don't enjoy this. Like I love the process of change. I love giving people hope.

Like I love being the person that like, you know, my friends can call like three o'clock in the morning, even if it's just something like random, but they just need. need to process something. And they're like, Jill, I really need to talk to you. And I'm like, okay, what's up? Like, what do you need? Well, I have this problem going on. And it's like, did you do this or why are you thinking about it that way? Oh, you're right. Okay, talk to you later. And I'm like, well, it's three o'clock in the morning and I'm up now. So I might as well do something. But I think that's like, like, I think everybody has a calling and everybody has a purpose. And I think, like, for myself, like, this is really like what I was, what I was born, born to do.

I couldn't, I couldn't do anything else. I really couldn't. And I've tried. It just hasn't worked out the same way. Yeah. So inmates would, we would always kind of like gossip about which guards were corrupt and doing this and doing that. Would staff members have that same kind of gossip about each other or even about inmates up to no good? So I don't want to say I kind of tried to stay out of it. But like, like you would pass certain COs.

And so there was, when we had to do certain training, there was like this building. I don't know if it was like an administrative building, but you learn that every CEO who was house there had some type of disciplinary against them. So like if, again, if like we were talking about like cops out on the street, like if they had like desk duty, you know, like if they couldn't go out into the field, that was like the building. Like never kind of found out like what was going on, so to speak. Like I know one guy I passed when I was coming in and he was going into the building and I happened to ask. the person who I was with, I was like, why is he going in there? And it was like, oh, well, he tried to run, or he was running a gambling ring in a prison. And it was like, oh, okay.

Yeah. Good, good, like, good job, I guess. I don't know. But, yeah, I mean, like, you kind of, like, knew what was going on with people. Like, you definitely knew if they went to that building, like, there was something going on, like, with them. Like, they had done some underhanded stuff. And, like, you know, it's people. People have the ability to fall into traps really, really easily.

Like I also learned you never do favors for people in prison. You never, because you can get caught up real quick. So like, hey, Miss Jill, can you do me a favor? I don't do favors. What do you need? And if I can get it for you, I'll get it for you. I need a pen. Okay, well, what happened to the pen I gave you?

Well, it's out of ink. Okay, give me back the pen I gave you. And I'll give you a new one. No, no, it stills a little bit more. Okay, no problem. All right, well, let me know when it does and I'll give you. Like, something as simple as that. Or if, like, I always look at, like, the potential for, like, people, like, people seeking other people because they have the potential to be vulnerable and getting, like, like, tripped up for that.

Like, and, again, it really is, it happens so, so, so, so easily. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway? Airways sale is on now. Fly non-stop round-trip to Fiji from just 748 or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with round-trip fairs starting from 839. As a one-world alliance member and American Airlines Advantage program partner, your miles go further across the South Pacific. Book now at Fiji Airways.com or contact your local travel agent. Conditions apply. And even in like the clinical world, like I've seen therapists who do things that are you know, have gotten their license taken away.

Like, you can't date clients. In the prison system, you can't date inmates. Like, that's why they have Priya. That's why they have the prison rape elimination act. Like, these are things put into place to keep people safe. You and the other person. So, like. But that happens rampantly.

Like, there's a lot of, we would hear a lot of stories from female staff sleeping with male inmates and then there would be the male inmate in investigation for months in the shoe because it spreads quickly. I know I was reading that news article about the woman CEO. I think she worked for the feds in New York. She was dating an inmate and then got pregnant, something, but it was just like that was pretty much one of like the biggest ones that like I had ever seen. But, you know, I can believe it.

Like some people are lonely and some people got nothing but time to figure out what they're going to do. As someone like myself that went to prison, I always get a lot of questions from individuals about like, what was it like this? And like they're so curious. Did you get that from friends and family when they found out you were working in a prison? I think the biggest question I got was why? Like, why are you like, why are you doing this? you know it was more so like coming home and being like how is it like how is your day is everything okay like you know what's it like to be you know what's it like to work like in the in the feds

like what's it like to work for the BOP you know are you thinking about like leaving are you going to you know change positions so and I think too a lot of it was like safety and security was you know like and anybody bother you today didn't anybody say anything to you today, you know, are you okay? And like I said, I may be naive, but I never felt like I had to worry. My biggest thing was if I treat you with respect, and I know that I'm treating you with respect, and it's genuine, like, we're not going to, like, we're not going to have a problem. But I think to answer your question, the biggest thing was, like, just safety and security. Because there would be times, you know, I didn't always have

anybody to walk with. Like, if I came in earlier, if I came in later, if I left her, like I'd walk the compound by myself. And, you know, at any given time when guys are making movement, there's, like you said, like 2,500 guys on the, you know, on the compound unless they're, you know, in, like, religious services or, you know, they're in the shoe. So I never, like, like I said, I kept my head held high and just kept walking and that was it. What was some lingo you've learned from working in a prison?

Oh, my God. like the biggest phrase but I think everybody uses it like it is what it is I learned what and if I hope I get the terminology correct I know what like Fifi is I learned that how do you learn what a Fifi was so true this is going to be funny um was not when I was in the jail I had a friend who had been um who had been incarcerated and this was in college and somehow we got on the subject of that And he was like, oh, yeah, he's like, it's Fifi. And I was like, what the hell is Fifi?

And when he explained it to me, I was like, oh, okay. Oh, okay, that makes sense. You got to handle your business sometimes. So that made sense to me. Like, as far as lingo, like, I'm trying to think, hmm, no, like, nothing. Nothing that really is like coming to mind. What are some strange things you've witnessed in prison?

A guy broke his leg jumping out the second floor window to get chicken. Chicken? How do you, aren't there, isn't there like wired fence on the windows? I don't know how he did it or where he fell from, but fell from the second floor window to get to, to get to the chow hall to get chicken. Like, you could tell when chicken, when it was chicken day, I think they used to get there. I don't know. I want to say maybe like KFC or someplace, but they never cooked it there.

They got it like brought in. And you would see guys running on the compound, just running, running, running, running. Chicken Day is sacred. It was every Thursday. And for holidays, they would give you the fried chicken.

See? Yep. And it was a big piece and we would smuggle it outside. Get out of here. In the Keefe coffee bag. So I would always, my roommates,

cellmates would say, here's some bags because they were like, you won't get stopped by the guards because they'd always have like six guards. outside the Chowhall patting down. Yeah. They were like, you look like a chomo, so you won't get patted down.

So I would be walking. Everyone would give me their chicken. I can't. And I would line it in my belt under my khakis because you had to be dressed in the khakis. I can't. And I'd have like six or seven birds in my pants walking by, walking past the guards that everyone else is getting pulled over and stopped and searched. It was the funniest thing.

You getting extorted for chicken. Yeah, I mean, it really is sacred to bring it back and freshen it up. I had one cellmate that would like put nice onions on it and you would chop it up for the fried rice. That's so cool. I mean, that's what you did, you know. You improve the meal. You make it special and then you'd have a whole feast and whatnot. We had what necessity is the mother of invention.

We got to do room searches. So finding some interesting things in room searches. Like we found, we found like a shank somebody made. we found what would possibly be classed. So the biggest thing was like we never wanted the guys to like disrespect women. So we would like open their lockers and there would be like naked pictures of women. And it was like really guys like there's like five women and one guy who worked with us like take it down.

Some got like guys used to bring food and like keep it in there like bunks. And like this one guy was on a protein kick. we found like a dozen hard-boiled eggs in his locker the one time. Like the whole unit smelled and we couldn't figure out like what it was. And it was like, we opened up his locker and it was like, what are you doing? Like I need my protein. Like, you know, I got to have my eggs. I'm like, have like two and make sure you eat them like the whole.

It was, yeah, that was probably like one of like the weirdest things like to save. But. Yeah, I would have bunk baits that were convinced that if they put it in the Tupperware, It was safe for however long. I was like, what are you doing? And then when I got out of prison and I had a roommate, he would just put the food, the leftover food in the microwave. Like it would just present, like you would make a meal and you would just stick it in a bin and leaving the microwave out of a plate or whatever. Like that would preserve the food.

Keeps it fresh. Yeah, I don't know where this ideology comes from. But if it's in a Tupperware, if it's in a microwave. Perfect. Yeah. It'll stay. It's like Twinkies, right? Twinkies will last the test of time.

So that chicken that you made like two weeks ago is still good because it's in the microwave on the plate. At the camp, it was on the bottom floor and the windows would open like halfway when there was no screen on the window. So we would hang out the net bag, the net laundry bag with all of our condiments, our milk we would take or anything. That would be like our refrigerator because it was in Wisconsin. It was in the winter and it was always cold. So we got creative that way. Yeah, I'm telling you, if people who did time in prison utilize their skills that they. because literally you have nothing and you have to create everything.

Like we talk about right, like the commissary. Like who thinks of using a microwave to make fried rice? Like, may I go to the, you know, the Asian spot and get my fried rice? But like you always think about those things. Like taking all that information, all that like knowledge and then just transposing it onto something amazing that you could do on the outside. And I feel like that's what your platform does for people. Like it lets them take their creative ideas and the tools.

that they have and then be able to, you know, harness their skills and harness their creativity to do what they have to do and then, like, present it to you for what they're doing. So it's pretty amazing. Thank you. Now, a lot of inmates watch a show that were formerly incarcerated. And I even get some messages of people that are in prison on contraband phones that listen to an air watch. What's something you want to, like, a direct message you want to get out to them that could

have made your job easier when you were working there or just, you know, in regards to prison staff in general. What's something that they should know? I think that like, you know, hopefully you're going to get out. Like just make the time as meaningful as possible and don't make your bed hard. Like, don't make it harder on yourself. Just do what you have to do for lack of a better term to survive and get home to the people who love you. Get home so you can be on this podcast. Like, You know, just do what you got to do and believe that you are more than, you're really just more than what is in your PSI. Like, just know that there are people out there. Like, if anybody else doesn't tell you, like, I'm proud of you.

Like, I'm proud of you for surviving and for coming home. So do you think men should seek, or even women seek, you know, mental health therapy after prison getting out? I definitely do like I you know I find that women are so much easier to engage in therapy because we are way more emotional and men are just more way more logical like that's how it is. So men can kind of like justify why they do the things they do and just very logical like I don't need this like I'll be fine. but there's so many underlying issues that a lot of men just don't want to face, like especially when it comes to, like, you know, like child sexual abuse or, like, trauma or, you know, being a victim of physical abuse and emotional abuse. Like, those are the things that, especially in most families you don't talk about.

Like, you don't talk about them. You don't bring them outside of the home, but it's like, what are you doing with that? Like, are you acting out because of it? of it. Are you using drugs because of it? Are you engaging in, you know, behavior that you might not have? Like, everybody is looking for a place to belong and a place to feel accepted. And sometimes where we find them is not the places that we should be looking. But if we can't count on the people who are supposed to love us, where else are we supposed to go? So, yeah, I think that a lot of things for a lot of people could be changed if more people intervened when they saw the things happening.

Like, I'm a big proponent of more, more therapy needs to be done in schools, like, way more. Because, like, I've listened to, you know, we'll start your podcast, and everything starts when these guys and girls are like 11, 12. Like, what do you, like, are we not talking to anybody? Do we not have, like, a counselor? Is it not, you know, it's such a big school. you've dropped out or there's nobody you can talk to like or somebody who kind of notices something about you that might look a little off and just say hey what's going on like is every you know is everything

okay like are you okay you look kind of sad like had somebody say to me yesterday like they random like they're like why are you so kind to me i'm like because it takes five minutes to just or it takes nothing to ask somebody if they're okay and when i say it and people laugh at me they're like do you really even meet it. I'm like, I do. Like, I'll say it to the waitress. I'll say to the person at Walmart. Like, okay. Like, how's your day going? Was everything okay with you? Yeah, you know, I just had kind of like a rough day because you never know when it could impact them so much. Like, you'll never know what an impact you have on people ever. Absolutely. Well, Jill, thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a real pleasure. Yeah, I love conversations like this because it breaks it up. And it's

it's something different for the listeners. And when I had the clinical therapist on the show, Teresa or Teresa, a few episodes back, that was like my first professional on the show, industry professional. And it was cool to see the feedback. People really enjoyed her interview. I'm looking forward to the feedback,

but if you have to judge me, please judge me on the fact that I haven't finished the Sopranos. It's fine. Or the wire. It's fine. I get judgment from family on that too. I don't think anyone's going to give you. a hard time. No, you did amazing.