Locked In with Ian Bick - NYPD Detective On Body Cameras, Stopping Terrorists, Rescuing Hostages & Is America Safe? | Tom Smith

Episode Date: November 17, 2024

Retired NYPD Detective Tom Smith, host of the Gold Shields podcast, shares his remarkable 17-year journey with the FBI’s Joint Terrorism Task Force. Tom discusses the high-stakes cases he worked on, what it was like being assigned to one of the most intense roles in law enforcement, and the daily challenges he faced while helping to combat terrorism. He opens up about the skills he developed, the close calls, and the experiences that shaped his career. Join us as Tom reveals an insider’s perspective on life in the FBI’s task force, his dedication to keeping the public safe, and the lasting impact of his work. #FBI #NYPDDetective #JointTerrorismTaskForce #CounterTerrorism #LawEnforcement #InsideTheFBI #TrueCrime #TerrorismPrevention Thank you to our sponsors this week: PrizePicks: Visit https://prizepicks.onelink.me/LME0/IANBICK and download the app today & use code IANBICK to get $50 instantly after you play your first $5 lineup! Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with Tom Smith: IG: https://www.instagram.com/thegoldshieldshow?igsh=czlqZTR1amVxZ2Rs YT: https://m.youtube.com/@goldshields#bottom-sheet FB: https://www.facebook.com/TOMSMITH638?mibextid=LQQJ4d Presented by Tyson 2.0 & Wooooo Energy: https://tyson20.com/ https://woooooenergy.com/ Buy Merch: https://www.ianbick.com/shop Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 Introducing Gold Shields Podcast 00:05:34 Innovative UV Dye Marker for Law Enforcement 00:11:01 Introduction to Prize Picks 00:16:41 Impact of Bill Bratton's Leadership on NYPD 00:22:15 Challenges in Law Enforcement and Prosecution 00:27:48 Early Career Ambitions and Transition to Narcotics 00:34:21 Differences Between Local and Federal Law Enforcement 00:39:48 Dynamics of Multi-Agency Collaboration 00:46:36 Kidnapping Case of a New York Times Reporter 00:51:29 High-Stakes Intelligence Briefing Challenges 00:57:14 Collaborating with a Country's Top Criminal 01:03:12 The Real Dangers of Terrorist Threats While Driving 01:09:04 Detecting Criminals through Social Media 01:15:10 Career Aspirations in Homicide 01:21:00 Transitioning Careers After Law Enforcement 01:26:15 Addressing Mental Health in Law Enforcement 01:32:15 Future Guest Announcement: Gold Shields Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and be sure to check out all the special offers. Tirec.com, the way tire buying should be. Tom, welcome to Lockton, former NYPD, and you have a pretty wide range of history and accolades that I'm excited to get into today. But before we do, I really want you to plug your podcast and explain what you were just telling me out there about the pepper spray. Okay. I thought that was amazing, and it would be so good for, we have a lot of law enforcement that listens and Uber drivers. That was what I thought of at the top of my head. Uber drivers, cab drivers.

bus drivers. So we have a show called Gold Shields. And my partner and I, Dan Murphy, worked together in the NYPD. Dan was my sergeant in the gang unit, then in the Joint Terrorism Task Force. And a couple of years ago, I laid this plan on them. Let's do a podcast. And we both agreed to do it, but then we had to figure out what we wanted to do. And so what we did is we got together the thought of having people who went through high-profile cases and explain those cases, but give kind of a backstage pass to what they experienced. Dan and I don't talk about other people's cases. We actually have the people who went through those on, whether it's law enforcement,

military operations or victims, and authors of true crime books about big cases will come on and explain their own story. So it's a great perspective of getting that firsthand knowledge of these stories and investigations and how they developed. And we just have a great time doing it. And we're going into our third season, which is great because when we first started, I think we had seven shows lined up. And then kept asking each other, what are we going to do for number eight? And didn't really have an answer yet. And then it kind of just kept growing and growing and growing.

And now we're going into our third season. which is a great accomplishment. And we just have a blast doing it. The best part of it is the people we meet, you know, and now we call friends, which means more to us than anything. And we're on YouTube. We're on Rumble. And we're on every audio channel that everyone listens to podcasts.

We're on some that we don't know we're on. I get a notification of, hey, your shows up, you're like, what's that? And so the platforms are out there. And we're just, you know, I think we're doing a good job with getting these stories out there. A lot of people don't know about. A lot of people don't hear about. And we try to get them out there with the people who went through them. So it's a lot of fun.

And then the other thing we do in our spare time when we're free is Dan and I have a company called Impact Solutions. And what we did is we developed a alternative to pepper spray. Pepper spray, if anyone in law enforcement and everyone in the world knows, sucks. It's horrible. It's hard to use because it gets on you. You can only use it outside. You can't use it inside. You're also going to smother yourself.

And, you know, the one thing we thought of was cops need another tool on their body that's actually going to work. You talk to, we actually have the opportunity to talk to cops all over this country now with the business. And no one uses it. There's departments that don't even issue it anymore because they won't use it. And we thought that was insane that cops need, you know, an alternative. when they're facing a perp that this will work perfectly. But what this does is the complete opposite of pepper spray. So there's no cross-contamination whatsoever.

If anyone knows pepper spray in the law enforcement world is once you spray that person, you have to kind of wait till it dissipates a little before you jump on them or it's going to get all over you. Our spray does not do that. You can spray this person right in the eyes and jump right on him and nothing he's getting on you. There's no cross-contamination whatsoever. And that's a big deal because you don't want to waste time waiting for something to, you know, occur or work.

Hours is immediate. It is an extreme eye irritant. Spray it in their eyes and you cannot open your eyes. It burns like crazy. And, you know, you take a perp's eyes away from. You can't see where you are. You know, you have to do what you got to do. You get them down and you get them cuffed.

And the other thing is there's no impact on your respiratory system. With the advent of body camps today, the last thing any cop on the street wants to hear is a perp saying they can't breathe. You don't want that on your body cam, hearing it, whatever. Hours eliminates that totally. There's no problem with your respiratory system when using impact. And the two other big parts about this is, well, three, sorry. You can use it anywhere. You can use it in a car, in a stairwell, in an elevator, and there's no blowback.

nothing's getting on you. The only person affected by it is the person you're spraying. And then nitrogen propel bottles. So the distance is a targeted stream right at their eyes, which is big in the private world. You know, people wanting to protect themselves. It's available to the public and it's available to law enforcement. So that's a big deal for them. And on the law enforcement side, you get a half a bottle of water. Once the person is under control, you pour it over their eyes and wipe it away and it's gone. And you are completely back to normal with no issues whatsoever within a minute, which anyone who's used pepper spray on a perp and sit in the hospital for an hour and a half while they're screaming and yelling that their eyes burn and they can't breathe

understands how big an impact, impact this is, this part of it is. And the other great thing on the law enforcement side and the private side is it's armed with a invisible UV dye marker. So you can spray them and get out of that area if you're jogging, if you're walking. Call 911 and they can come identify him with a black light. He'll be covered in a UV dye and we'll never know it. He can get it out of his eyes. That's fine, you know, but it's going to be all over his neck and down his face and everything. So they can be identified that way.

And in crowd controls, large crowd controls, you have those agitators that are out there that you sometimes can't get to. this will identify them. Wow. I feel like this is like something that would be great on Shark Tank. Have you guys ever like pitched it on there? We thought about it for a while. We've actually had that suggestion a couple of times. But right now we're doing good.

We're in a lot of different states. A lot of departments are testing it right now. We're a big presence in Texas right now with departments switching over to it. And we have so many others lined up, you know, with personal demonstrations that we're going to do because there's nothing like seeing it. You can watch a video and you can listen to me talk about it all day. When we do this in front of people, they're blown away. They can't believe how it works because they haven't seen anything like it before. And a lot of times we'll, we'll intentionally do it inside. And people like, no, we can't do it in here. We've got to go

outside. We're like, no, that's the point. We're doing it right here. And the only thing you'll do is smell, it smells like salt and vinegar potato chips. That's it. And they cannot believe it. I've done demonstrations and I like freaking people out a little bit, so I'll do two separate things. I'll spray the person and walk up to them and actually wipe it off their face and wipe it on my face and I'm fine. Wow. There's no effect on me whatsoever. And one time, I didn't do that for some reason and it was a garbage can right next to me. So I sprayed. I emptied a can in the garbage can and then stuck my head in the garbage can. And I was fine. and people laughing and couldn't believe that that actually occurred and then see the effects of it.

And they're just blown away by it. And it's really taken off. And our website is carryimpact.com. And you can order right on there. We're actually coming out with a new. We have three different bottles. It's kind of a small, medium, and large is what they are. MK3, 4, and 9.

But we're going to be having our key chain soon. Wow. That's perfect. Which is going to be a big, big deal. They're designed. They're approved. They're ready. We're just waiting for them to arrive in our hands.

There's so many women that carry the little pepper spray. Like keychain wants the old kind, you know, not your brand. But or in their purse. I was in an Uber in Tennessee yesterday and the woman carries a knife like next or on the left. You know, so this is perfect. It's great. And when we start talking about it and we talk about the key chain, so many women will talk to us and say they have pepper spray, but they won't use it. They carry it, but they're afraid to use it because of they don't want it affecting them,

which makes that situation 10 times worse. Now you're affected by your own spray, and it just makes a dangerous situation even worse, and ours just eliminates that what's altogether. And this is a great stocking stuff for Christmas is coming up. Yes, very much. Yep. And, you know, we're involved in a lot of organizations as well. One of our organizations that we're heavily into on Gold Shields is wheelchairs for Warriors.

and Wheelchairs Warriors provides wheelchairs to disable vets and law enforcement first responders. If they need a wheelchair because of a disability, they provide a wheelchair. So we came to an agreement with them that each wheelchair being made right now will be with a can of impact attached to each wheelchair. That's awesome. So we're very happy that we got that done and that deal. And Crystal Lauer-Mour is an amazing. She runs it. it's a really special organization to us.

Are you guys in stores too or is it just online? We're kind of way, no, it's online right now. I think the key chains is when we're going to really branch out into, you know, online stores and all that and get it out there. We've had a couple of interests in it, which we're just, you know, kind of dot and T's crossing, dot in the eyes crossing T's to see where it's going to end up in what store. So do you think you would have started this business if you weren't in law enforcement? No, absolutely not. And the reason we did, it was in 50 years between me and Danny combined, 50 years in NYPD, neither one of us ever used our pepper spray, ever.

I never even thought about using it because of how horrible it was. Because you're worried about hitting your partner. You were worried about hitting another cop that was at the scene. And like I said before, you didn't want to spend the rest of the day in the hospital with a perp who was screaming that you couldn't see or breathe. Yeah, I feel for those correctional officers because that's all they have. Right. And we're making it. We're a big push with correction facilities because you can use it in a cell. And a lot of their stuff, you have to spray and they wait outside. They wait until it takes effect. And then they have to charge into the cell to do whatever they need to do. Ours is right away. And in a cell, no other cop is going to be affected by it or correctional officer. That's awesome. All right. Let's talk about prize picks, the best place to get real money sports action. And they make it simple. With over 10, 10 million members and billions in awarded winnings. Prize picks has made daily fantasy sports accessible for everyone.

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So I grew up in that world. And then we left the city when he retired and moved upstate to New York. What was that like growing up, the son of an NYPD detective? Yeah, to be careful. Because, you know, I have four older sisters and me. and my dad when we lived in the city knew everybody, knew everyone. And you know what? And my sisters and I always talk while we were growing up that the biggest thing,

and we never really got in trouble. We never did because you didn't want to embarrass dad. You know, if you did something wrong and bad, a cop was going to show up and we knew he was going to know our dad. It was just he was that guy, you know, in Manhattan and in the Bronx. and that's where my sisters would hang out, so you just didn't get in trouble. And you couldn't lie.

It was the one thing, nope, not a shot in hell. Nothing was getting by him. And he would tell you that, listen, you could go rob a bank. Just don't lie to me. And that was his rule. And that was our rule growing up.

Whatever happened can get worked out. You know, getting in trouble or making a bad decision in your life growing up, which we all do. His rule was do not lie to me. me. And we stuck to that because you, first of all, you couldn't. There's no way, there was no story you could try to run by him that would get past it. Not a shot. He was very good and he was my hero and my influence with getting on the job and really proud to have him and call him

my dad. Because you know what I say? I said it on my show. I've said on many other occasions that a lot of us grow up saying I want to be like my dad. You say it. when you're little and I got to be. I got to work in some of the same places as him, worked with some people he knew, you know. So it was a great privilege to follow in his footsteps. You know, we just discussed out there how different policing is from your time versus now. I can't imagine what it was like because you got to see his time compared to now.

That's probably a whole different perspective. Oh, yeah. I mean, he was a cop in New York in the 50s, 60s and 70s when New York was just completely out of control, you know, with poverty and crime and cops didn't have bulletproof vests and, you know, had 38 still. I mean, when I got a job, but we had a 38, but, you know, what they had to go through and I would hear the stories from him. But it's interesting because when I got on in 1990, he would say the same thing. Like, you know, it's still like this in there and you should have seen back when I worked and all this. But even then, you know, New York was a dangerous place and growing up

and starting at the time we did when I did. But having him there to run stuff by made a lot of difference. You know, hey, this happened at work or I'm doing this tomorrow. You know, it was a big influence on me. But, you know, being on the job when I got on in 1990, the city was a mess. I mean, we were up close to 3,000 homicides a year and 115,000 robberies a year and 80,000 rapes. you know, it was a really tough place to work. And you had to learn really quick, no matter where you work, no matter what precinct you were assigned to,

you had to learn a job fast or else you were going to get caught up in it. Because every night where I worked in the 3-0 precinct, the west side of Harlem, every night was busy. And you had to know what you were doing. And it was great because you had experienced cops that were there already that would teach you, like, hey, you need to do it this way, you need to do it this way. And that made a big difference in, I think my profession, my career in starting off in such a busy time frame. And then the city got better in 1994 when Rudy Giuliani won the mayor and Bill Bratton became the police commissioner.

That changed a job dramatically because Bill Bratton came in and got his dream team, what we called it together, of Louis Anamone. John Timney, you know, and that crew, and said, hey, go clean the city up. You guys wanted to be cops? Now go be a cop and start locking everybody up and the broken windows policies of locking the little things up that led to, you know, stopping bigger crimes. That worked. I mean, worked dramatically. And the one thing I always tell people, and I always say this, it wasn't just a one-dimensional solution. Like Bratton didn't you come in and say, okay, all the cops just go lock everybody.

up and that's it. Juliani and Bratton got together with the district attorneys in New York and said, hey, they had a big meeting and said, listen, if I'm going to tell my cops to go out there and do their job, you damn well better do yours and you better keep these people in jail and come up with bigger, you know, harsher penalties and bigger sentences and longer sentences. That's the only way we're going to clean our city up, is if both of us work together. And then that started, then the feds got involved. And they jumped on board with, you know, trigger a lot of the city. lock and enhancements of the rest, which led to federal charges. There isn't a criminal walking around New York City that ever wants to hear the word fed

or federal. That scares the hell out of all of them. And they know what it entails. You know, you're not going downtown. You're going to that big building with all the granite and all the tile and that big jail. And they know that. And they knew the difference in that. So when we lock people up and say, hey, we're doing this to you.

game was over and they knew it. You know, RICO cases went through the roof with going after criminal enterprises. And look at it. It worked. You know, homicides dropped. Robberies dropped. And the city got back to what it should have been. You know, back then, you couldn't walk through Central Park.

You couldn't jog through Central Park. You didn't walk through Times Square. And you sure is hell, then going to subway unless it was, that was part of your life and you had to. You didn't do that. And when we started, you know, changing. the tone of New York City and the NYPD, people were now going to the park again with their families. Look what Times Square became. Businesses came back. You know, Broadway shows were always there, but even more, and, you know, it got even better. The restaurants around there started

to thrive because everyone was going to Times Square and everyone was going to Broadway shows. And it just dramatically changed the city. So how do you compare now to back then? Do you feel like it's worse now than it was when you when it got cleaned up it's different rules and it's a different mindset uh yes the homicides of what we had to deal with are dramatically down but i think what's different is the environment of policing i think is is dramatically different uh cops today are in a bad spot with what they can do and and you see cops getting hurt and and shot and killed all over this country and the problem with it and the reason for is you don't have the DAs on board with you.

You know, and it's a revolving door system where you're locking these people up and they're out in a couple hours. That's not helping anyone. You know, it's not just, you can't look at it as just the police. Like, I'm a cop, I'm a retired cop. I get it. But it's hurting citizens just as bad, if not even more. You know, that they can't bring their kids here,

they can't walk down the street at night, they can't leave a club when they used to without worrying who's on the street now because all the criminals is just through this revolving door and getting out of jail. And criminals aren't stupid. You know, criminals are on top of policies and laws more than cops are. They understand, you know, they're on social media. They got their phones. They know what they can get away with and how much time they get to spend in jail.

And they take advantage of that. You know, criminals aren't stupid. They know what they can get away with. And you see that now, not even in New York, but all over the country. and you have just these paid-for DAs that are just, you know, laying down in front of, you know, these criminals and letting them get away with all this. It's really horrible. And it puts police in a really bad spot because it's not just worrying about getting shot and killed now. You're worrying about getting indicted.

You're worrying about getting arrested and losing your pension and ended up in jail when you have a family. And all you're doing is going to work every day trying to do your job. And, you know, a lot of them are cops defending themselves. And I've said this numerous times Ian as well. Cops are allowed to defend themselves. And you see on these body cam footage and videos that I watch or have been on shows who talk about body cams and we kind of go through each one, cops are more just grabbing these bad guys when they get in fights and just holding them, waiting for kind of the pile on to happen so you could just put a pair of cuffs on them.

And that's how cops are getting hurt. because they're not defending themselves. They're not, you know, using the amount of force used on you. You can use back. You're allowed. And but they are so worried about the specter of these, these DAs who are just all about crime and backing criminals up and not have the backs of the cops. Do you think if the DAs weren't politically, political positions, it would be different?

Oh, yeah, sure it would. Absolutely. because, you know, you have to have to, it's a team concept. It's not one part of this team. Everyone has to work together. And when you see the difference in, in arrests being made and cops getting hurt getting, you know, making these arrests, but yet they're not getting prosecuted. They're not serving the time in jail that they need to.

That, you know, is demoralizing to everyone, citizens in the community, the police departments are demoralized by that. So what do you have? You have cops that might not go out there and, you know, bust it like they should be because why? Why, you know, why am I going to do this? I may get in trouble. I may get hurt. You know, so it brings every part of law enforcement and criminal justice system down when you don't have district attorneys who are more political than they are just doing your jobs. Why you went through law school, it's why you're a DA. It's a lot of bad guys up and keep them in jail. It's a job description. And when they're start doing the opposite of that, like Gascon in L.A. is horrible. And all it does is hurt good people. Hurts good cops. It hurts kids. And it hurts people in that community. Now, the body cam specifically, I mean, there was such a long period of time without body cams. The stuff that people see that gets people so worked up on the body cams now, was that happening before that, or was it just? Well, back then it was a different conversation because you had to explain like what happened. And a lot of people

didn't, you know, believe you. I was always in favor of body camps because I always thought it would do more good than bad. Because if you look at it again, I'm a cop. I get it. But more good things are done by cops and bad things. Are there bad apples? 100%. And I would never sit here and say, no, all cops are great. No, absolutely not. There's people that shouldn't be cops. One thousand percent. But I always thought that body cams would help cops more than hurt them. And that is the case. That's definitely the case because people start to realize how fast things happen, how it's not just one snapshot. You know, a lot of times you see that with, you know, when body cams first came out, you saw one part of an arrest. Oh my God, look what that cop did. Hold on. Let's back the

tape up 15 minutes and leading up to that. And that's what you're able to do today. more people are understanding how tough this job is, how fast things happen, and how much danger cops are in. Yeah, I think that's like social media is almost weaponized to cut up those clips and not get the full component out. Absolutely. Or they can alter the clip or they could do different things. Like there's a lot of times I'll see things that it's just a segment of that.

That's like a clip from a podcast. It's the same thing that could be applied to a body cam. Absolutely. You know, and AI today, God, you know, what can be done with that? you know, with what people are saying and in statements that are made that aren't really made. You know, that gets into a dangerous spot. And, you know, that's why I'm always in the belief of police departments, when there's a questionable arrest, shooting, whatever, get that footage out quick.

Don't let someone have the time to manipulate it. Get it out there during a press conference. Again, in front of it. And I think they do that for the most part because, like I said, Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airways sale is on now. Fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just 748. Or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with roundtrip fairs starting from 839.

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With the boiling water? Yeah, with the boiling water. They put that out right away before anyone else got that. Right. And they made the arrest and took care of that. And they should have because I was, there wasn't really one thing right about that. Not one thing. Yeah.

You know, that was a bad, bad situation and a problem for him. And you know what? Cops have to be held accountable. you know, with what they do. And I think they are. Nowadays, you know, you have to be responsible for what you have in front of you and what your job is. The responsibility is enormous of what cops go through. And if you make a mistake, you know, you have to be held accountable for it.

Because if you're not, it affects everybody else, you know. And I've said it forever, you know, that's why being a cop's a tough job because you can have an event or arrest in New York. And it's affecting a cop in California in a totally different department, totally different time zone and job description. But people see that and it resonates throughout the country. And that's why, you know, for the most part, you want, you know, all the time. You want your cops doing the right thing.

Absolutely. How long did it take you to move up in the ranks in the NYPD? I started in 1990. And I was only in uniform for about three years. Is that normal? It was a little quicker than most. There were some people right around the same time frame that went into like a plainclosed unit in a pretty single anti-crime. And we handled all the, you know, gun runs and shootings and all that.

And then I got promoted seven years after getting on the job to detective, which, you know, at the time was right around the right time, maybe a little earlier than some others. but being a detective is all I want to be. I didn't want to be a sergeant. I don't want to be a lieutenant. I didn't want to be any of that. You know, my dad was a detective. I grew up with that. That's what I wanted to be.

And, you know, when I got that gold shield in 1997, it was, it met the lot. And, you know, I took it serious. And, you know, and then just, you know what it was? I always had a goal of what I wanted to do on the job and where I wanted to go. you know, narcotics was probably the most fun I had. And people, I say fun and people look at me like, wait, how was that fun? Definition fun in the police department is different than just a regular person. You know, doing search warrants and doing long-term cases with getting drug dealers and all that was a great time.

And I had an incredible team that I worked with. My partner, you know, was obviously part of that team, but we had a very active team. did a lot of long-term cases. And it just made it, you know, it made it fun. And then the gang unit and then the robbery squad in the Bronx. And then 9-11 happened. And 9-11 changed my entire career. I would have been very happy.

My goal was to get to like a homicide team. That was what I wanted, whether in Manhattan north or the Bronx. That was my entire goal in my career. I would have been happy with that, but then 9-11 happened. And right after 9-11, I was asked to go to the FBI's Joint Terrorism Task Force, which is where I spent the last 17 years of my career. And spending 17 years in JTTF was a long time. There were only a handful of us that had that amount of time in the task force.

But we got to do things that the average detective didn't do. the cases we worked on, the kind of freedoms of traveling around the world is what I got to experience. And, you know, a lot of times you'd end up in one part of the world. And you sit in your hotel room and kind of laugh going, I'm a detective. What am I doing here? You know, you're talking to people, you're briefing people from the White House, from the State Department, from the Pentagon. You know, so you had to be on your game down there. And you had to kind of raise your game a little once we got down.

there after 9-11 and who we were going after. How does someone get recruited to a task force like that? I actually, mine was, you know, back then it was all word of mouth and it was all recommendations back then. And then JTTF got into like an application process and all that. But right after 9-11, it was just all hands on deck of who knew who. I happened to make a phone call to a former sergeant of mine that we had a case or something with a juvenile. And we had a question about it. So I knew a former Sergeant Mike Rodriguez

who worked with us in the 30, and I knew ran one of the juvenile units in the city. So I called them to ask him a question. And again, this was a couple of weeks after September 11th. And I call him, I'm like, hey, Mike, you know, talk to him for a little bit. And he immediately cuts me off. I don't even ask the question I wanted to ask him. And he goes, hey, where are you? I said I'm in a 5-2 RAM. You know, what's up? He goes, all right, meet me down in front of 26 Fed tomorrow. I'm going to hand you a big, you know, packet, fill it out,

get it back to me and get down to the task force. And I went, oh, okay. And that's how I got picked up down there. I met him. He gave me a national security packet, which was part of our background check that we needed, you know, the clearance levels to go down there. I feel it was like four or five inches thick. I had to fill out, got, you know, filled it out, got an interview, and then, you know, a group of us got picked up afterwards.

Did you ever think you would go back to your regular detective job? No. You knew life was, that was it. That was it. Because, you know, in the NYPD, JTTF was it. You know, that was kind of, that was a top level detail. And once you got there, you know, you hope to God everything worked out and you stayed there. But I ended up staying there for 17 years.

Now, was there, the terrorist aspect of it, was there, these, did these task force happen before 9-11, or was this because of 9-11 that this was formed? No, JTTF was formed in New York in 1980, I believe, with the advent of some domestic terrorist groups, Black Liberation Army, FLAN, all terrorist organizations like that doing multiple bank robberies to finance what they were doing, leaving, you know, a array of bombs outside one police plaza that went off and injured and killed police officers back then. But it wasn't to the level it became, it is now by any stretch. On September 10th, let's just say, there were only 11 NYPD detectives assigned to JTTF. Wow. Whereas now September 11th happened. And New York's JTF became the largest in the country. We had over, I think, 65 different agencies assigned to the task force.

We had three different branches. We had domestic branch, an international branch, and an Intel branch. So we were enormous. And it worked. And it was a great functioning unit with the resources that we had. You know, at any moment, no matter what you were working on, someone was there that could help you out. Whether postal service, international stuff, it was just, it was a great place to work because it was like a candy store. You know, you were doing these cases that, again, weren't average just NYPD detective cases.

These were international cases that people want to blow the world up. And the one thing we'd never want, it was another 9-11. So you worked really hard and used all the resources we had to get, you know, get done what we had to get done. Does every major city contribute to this task force, like detectives? There's each, each field office in the FBI has a JTTF. The size of them vary dramatically. Like I said, you know, what we have in New York, you're not going to have in, you know, a, an office in Nebraska.

You know, you're going to have a smaller, you know, unit, but still all doing the same work. You know, so you would, if your case led to a different state or different city, you would always work hand in hand with that JTF. Now, what's the difference between you and an actual federal agent? We're still, even if I'm in the Joint Terrorism Task Force, I'm still an NYPD detective. I just have federal authorizations. We get sworn in as deputized federal marshals, which gives us our federal status. So we have the same law enforcement powers as an FBI agent.

You know, we're allowed to make an arrest anywhere in the country. We can carry a weapon anywhere in the country. We can carry a weapon on a plane. And our powers, you know, work anywhere. And it's the same level as any federal agent. And what was the benefit for these federal agents? agencies to recruit this? Were they out numbered? Do they not have enough staff on the federal agent level that they needed task force? Yeah, you need you need task forces because the how these

cases work and the like I said, the amount of resources you need to do these cases because you can get into a terrorism finance case. You need accountants. You need the IRS. You need, you know, So a lot of them are just not criminal, bad guy wants to, you know, blow something up, let's get them. A lot of them are very complex cases that you need multiple agencies to be involved in and getting them. Because the goal is to get them, you know, and lock them up and keep them in jail. So you want every resource you could possibly use on there, on top of other federal agencies, NSA, the CIA, the military. You know, all those also are part of the task force. How often did, like, your New York detective skills or instincts help you as a task force agent?

Oh, dramatically. It was, you know, and that's why, you know, a lot of us got asked to go down there because in our careers, we ran large-scale cases. And, you know, I always looked at working terrorism cases never to get too wrapped up into what it was. They're bad guys. build a case, just like you would, narcotics. Yes, different mindset, different kind of mission that you need to do, but just kind of keep it the same level and kind of do the same things you would with the bad guy in the Bronx.

And a lot of times that work, but even with that in, you had to use your imagination a lot. You had to think outside the box because they were, and you had to keep pace with them. And, you know, a lot of times you would think of something and go, oh, wow, that was a good idea. But a lot of it and the length of time doing these cases, you had to be patient because there was no federal case that was the same as a robbery in the Bronx. You know, I could get a guy in an hour or two. There were cases in JTTF that went off for years. And you had to be patient and you had to just methodically go from step A to B to C to make sure you got them and then kept them in jail and had enough to, to, to, to,

lock them up for as long as we could and preventing another 9-11. Was it challenging to not know like all of the federal laws and regulations that say a federal agent would have been taught versus an NYPD detective? Oh yeah. And that's why, again, working on the task force was so good because you had, you know, FBI agents on your team. So a lot of times when you were doing a case, you get partnered up with an FBI agent. So a lot of cases I did as a detective, I would have an FBI partner.

So if there was a line that had to be run on the federal level, he took that or she took that and did that part of it, which really helped. Because A, it was easier for someone to do it who's done it before and you learned. You know, you learned a lot of the federal system working in the task force that I might not have known earlier or before. But and even other, you know, other agencies and working with them, you got to learn how they worked. and tap into them. And then you just got, you know, again, sort of like what I said before about first starting off. You had no choice.

You had to learn. There wasn't kind of a learning curve. We got thrown in this immediately. And you had to learn real quick what was going on. Now, do these agencies actually in real life work well together? Because in movies and TV shows, you see the classic, you know, there's a bank robbery and the FBI or the Fed show up and the state's like, oh, what the fuck, you know?

Yeah. You know, before 9-11, it was a enormous problem, which led to 9-11. Communications and information sharing. Whose ball was it? I'm going to be the hero. It's my ball. You can't play. We saw the result of that.

So when we got down there, things were rough in the beginning with the FBI trust in the NYPD. We were new. You know, we were the new kids on the block and aggressive as hell. You know, there's a big difference between the mindset of an NYPD detective going after someone not to blow our city up again and a federal agent is a big difference. So that had to get worked out. But communications, I think, got better because they saw the results of it not working. And when you didn't do it right and didn't share information, 9-11 happened.

And that couldn't happen again. So there are, there is headbutting a lot. I'm not going to say there's not. It's a interesting sandbox when you get multiple agencies in the same room trying to come up with an idea how to get someone. Oh, it gets interesting. And it gets fired up and it gets heated. And not because it's kind of not because they want to be the heroes anymore. Or it's just they have their own kind of line of their mission and they want to make sure they are involved with that part.

So I think it's a lot better today than it used to be for sure. Was that more so at like the higher level positions? Like say someone like you and a regular age in a room where you guys like going back and forth? Oh, that could happen. Oh, yeah. That, yeah. It certainly happened because, listen, I was very, very aggressive. you know, in the way I worked.

If I had something, if I had a case, I went just all for it. I didn't, you know, I stayed at work late. I didn't eat. I didn't go home. You know, that was just the way I worked. And I worked that way in narcotics. And I worked that way, you know, in doing a homicide case or whatever. And sometimes you would get that, oh, wait, it's five o'clock.

It's time to go home. No, we're not going home. We're doing this. So there were some discussions like that or I was very into the face-to-face meetings. I hated phone calls. I hated Zoom calls or whatever. There's nothing like sitting in front of people you're working with. So if we had something going on in California, hey, let's go.

We're getting on a plane and going. Oh, no, we don't need to do that. Yes, we do. Because I just think it worked better. You got a better understanding of who you were working with. and information got shared a lot better in person than over a computer. I just had an ex- Homeland Security agent on the show, and he was saying he loved working with task force officers.

It was easier to work with. They were harder workers, and there was a lot of different dynamics to running investigations with them. Yeah. And that's the dynamic. That's the special dynamic of, you know, cops and agents. Cops and agents are different. You know, their mindsets are different. Their missions are different.

And our experiences are different. You know, I can have 22, you know, at the time, whatever years doing what we did on the street with long-term cases, getting in shootouts, you know, all that. And now you're working with a kid out of Quantico that's been an agent for two and a half years. You know, that, but I'm an FBI agent, so you're going to listen. No, we're going to, we're going to try it this way. So that was you, and most of the time, the majority of time, the respect level was. there. We never got, you know, and like I said, traveling around the world, I was in 18 different countries, you know, doing terrorist investigations. And when they hear it's an NYPD detective,

it's a different, it's a different thought because they know the experience we have. And, and we accepted that. And, and we took it serious. And that was a, it was a heavy burden to have, but we took that because that's who we are. You know, we, we've been called the world's police, you know, over and over again. And when you walk into that room and you have a group of people from a security agency from another country going, who's the detective? Oh, I am. Okay, you sit here. You know, that means a lot.

And you have to be on your game when that gets presented to you. Yeah. Did those local police agencies and other countries taking more of a liking to you because you weren't like the higher official federal agent? Oh, yeah. Listen, I played that to my advantage all the time. You know how many times I showed up somewhere and literally went, no, I'm not with them. I'm not one of them. I'm just a cop.

They love that. I did that all the time. You know, hey, no, no, no, I'm a cop. And people would gravitate to that because, listen, there's a stigma of being an NYPD detective. There just is. There's no way around it. It's not putting ourselves above anybody. And I don't mean it that way whatsoever.

But the view around the world is that. And you have to take that. can't you can't show up somewhere and someone say my god you're an NYPD they go out no that's nothing you don't do that you know you take it and you have that responsibility of of you know showing what a NYPD detective is all about and uh the respect level was always there around the world and one story uh that i love telling about this and it's not even overseas it was in this country i did an operation out in Las Vegas uh we were out there doing something and the local guys helped us out with what we needed.

And I had a captain come up to me and say, hey, Tom, do you have your shield with you? And I said, yeah. You know, I had it in my pocket. And I take it out. He goes, can I hold it? And I handed it to him. And he looked at it. He goes, I've only seen this in the movies.

This is cool. You know, when you see someone do that of that rank, you know, somewhere else in this country, that's a great feeling. because it just shows the respect that the NYPD has around the world and in this country. So that was a pretty cool feeling. So were used to, did you still live in New York throughout your whole career with the task force? Yes. Yep. So what would be like a typical day and how long would you be out of New York for on these missions?

It depended on, well, a typical day was, you know, if you had a case, if you had a case that you were running. See, I had about an hour, hour and a half on a good day commute into the city. every day. So my mornings, like driving into work or all my phone calls, anyone I had to touch base with in the case I was running, I would do on my way into work because then I got to my desk and everything was, okay, let's go. And that was my morning. I would just spend it on the phone with whoever I needed to touch base with. And then it depended on what was going on. You know, if you had to travel a lot, a lot of the trips, if they were, it depends on what you're, it depends on you were doing a lot of them if they were meetings were three or four days uh i was down in dc a lot

because of one investigation i was running that i was down there a lot i mean i would leave almost every other sunday night be there for monday come home wednesday i was doing that a lot so uh you know but if you were doing like a surveillance or you were doing some sort of undercover operation that involved either an undercover agent or source that could take longer. I mean, one extremely long case, I was in Afghanistan for three months doing a kidnapping case of a New York Times reporter. So that was a long one.

So that would be considered a terrorist case when they're kidnapped like that? Yes, because he was kidnapped by a al-Qaeda affiliated group. And he lived in New York. He lived in Manhattan. So it became our case on our team. And myself and one of the other agents on the team were assigned to it. and, you know, it happened in Afghanistan, so we were actually tasked to get them home. I mean, I was in the middle of doing the case I mentioned before, a very large case that I was running that was hitting a lot of parts of the world and got asked, hey, can you put that on hold?

You know, we have to do this kidnapping. And, of course, I said, yes, that was a no-brainer. And that was the biggest case probably I ran being in Afghanistan. It was the most dangerous. And you had, again, it was a different mindset. Because Jimmy went to Afghanistan first. And that's the way we broke it up. We had a meeting when it happened and said, okay, how we kind of dividing this, divide and conquer.

He was set to go out there first. And I was here getting all the agencies lined up of who we needed. The agency, NSA, the military, a whole host of agencies that we needed to be on. one team to try to locate him and get him home. But then at some point, you know, whatever time it was, it was my turn to go to Afghanistan. And, you know, you got to remember, I'm not in the military. I'm a cop. And now I'm going into a war zone.

You know, I knew physically I'd be fine. It was getting mentally ready to do that. Leaving my family for three months was not easy. That was hard to do. And here's the worst part. and I couldn't tell why I was going. You know, I'm saying goodbye. I'm going to a war zone, and they had no idea why.

That was hard, but my family was involved in my entire career, so they got it. Not that it was easy, but they understood why I couldn't tell them what was going on because of clearance issues. But going there was a different mindset of being kind of militarily ready as a cop to, to do what we had to do there. I mean, we landed on a charter, and you're immediately in a wartime setting, and you're somewhat part of a military view. You know, you're giving an M4. You're given a heavy vest.

You're giving your sidearm, trackers, you know, all that stuff. And, you know, you kind of go, all right, I'm not in the Bronx anymore. You know, but then you just get into doing the case. we were assigned to work with one of the SEAL teams up in Bogram. So we were working with them a lot. We were very heavily working with the agency. But it was an incredible experience being there. And luckily, it all worked out and we got them home, which was the best part of it.

How advanced were those like communications technology compared to what you were used to in New York for that period of time? Oh, a lot. I mean, it was, you know, we were lucky if we were working in the city and our radio worked. You know, we're being a couple of blocks away from the precinct or whatever. You were happy if you used one battery for eight hours and then you see what is out there, you know. And that's where I said your imagination kicks in. Hey, can we have, do we have the ability to do A, B, and C and you have someone go, oh, yeah, sure. And all it was was like a far out thought of how can we maybe feel.

find him a certain way or whatever. And the technology that the military has and some of our government agencies have are very, very advanced. Thankfully, I've said it a lot that, you know, the technology and the like a SEAL team, I'm glad they're on our side. That's for sure. Yeah. When you were put on the task force, were you given extra like tactical training? Not too much. No. Which we get asked a lot. Like, oh, did you go through all this advanced training? it, no. Because, you know what? It was a lot of reasons we got picked up was our experience and doing investigations. The tactical stuff, when you went away, you kind of learned, you know, all of us kind of got it pretty quick. If you were in another country, what to do,

how to do, make sure you're not getting followed, you know, and all that. Kind of you just got as you traveled more. But a lot of the reasons that we were all picked up was on an investigative level. So did that make it more challenging when you're, say, over in a different country, working with like military personnel, the agency, things like that? I feel like that's a different league. Yeah, it is. And that's what I mean. You had to, you know, we were forced to step your game up. You know, you were on a different level with what we were dealing with. And you had to be precise. You know, I mentioned this a lot. You know, when we would do briefings on a case, say the kidnapping case, we had to be on point with our information because it was getting brief to the highest levels of our government in the presidential daily brief or whoever might get it.

So your info had to be spot on because there's one thing I learned in when it comes to federal government. Things can spin out of control with one word being missaid, misled, the wrong context, whatever. one word can spin this government completely out of control. And you had to be aware of that when you're writing reports or doing a brief. How hard was it to build and maintain a family and relationships at that kind of peak time where you're so focused on your career? But you also, you know, like you need to have a life too. It was, you know what? It was a lot of trust.

And I say this all the time. You know, people watching this are going to laugh at me, but I got the best wife in the world. we've been together for 35 years and three of the best kids in the world. And it was just, it was a lot of trust in what was going on and communication. You know, it was, hey, I will call you every time, every chance I can to make sure you know I'm okay. And it was just, you know, we communicate as much as we could. When I was on the job before JTTF, my wife was a big part of me not losing my mind. because of just coming home and her understanding what stresses we were under and what was going on.

So to come home after a bad night and kind of lay it out like, hey, this is what happened, this is what happened. Helped a lot. But I'm also not your prototypical detective that you see in the movies and on TV. I don't drink. I don't smoke. I don't gamble. I've been married to the same girl forever. You know, so it's not easy.

You know, are we perfect? Absolutely not. You know, was everything perfect in the world? No. And anyone who would say that is silly. But it took a lot, it took a lot of trust and a lot of work to just maintain it and be okay and understanding what was going on. And the traveling part my wife was great with because she understood the enormity of it and what it was. You know, we weren't going after a crackout on the corner. And she lived through 9-11, you know, and me going down there. you know, that day. And she understood what the mission of the task force was. So the traveling

was tough at times. But most of the time, we had enough heads up to kind of plan a trip. There wasn't many that were just like, you need to get on a plane tonight. You know, so there was enough time to kind of schedule out where the kids were at, what we were going to do. And that helped out a lot. Was it hard to receive like, you know, classified information about, say a potential threat and not being able to tell everyone. Yeah. I mean, especially in the beginning.

Once you got, you stay there for a while, no one asked anymore because they understood I wasn't going to be able to talk anymore. My dad, while he was alive, would try his best to get stuff out of me. But anyone watching, you know,

cops tell stories. You know, cops tell great stories. And before the task force, it was story at a family function or holiday what happened this, what happened with that, and you were just talking, talk and talk and talk. But after being on the task force for a while,

everyone kind of realized that wasn't going to. So the questions were, hey, you're okay, everything good, you're busy, yeah. Are you going away? Yeah. Like, there were times that I would go to Florida and tell my wife I was in California. You know, or I'd be in Oklahoma, tell her I was in, you know, Indiana. You know, I did that a lot. because a she didn't need to know where it was and it protected her for you know any other

questionings that would come up of where I am you know so she wouldn't have to lie. The only place she really knew where it was obviously was Afghanistan. That would have been hard to that would have been hard to hide for three months. But like I said, she didn't know why I was there, which, you know, I couldn't imagine, you know, getting in her brain what that was like. And probably over the three months, there was one time frame that we had to go down to Kandahar, which is the southern part of Afghanistan. And we knew at the time there was a good amount of fighting down there. And the cell service was horrible.

So that was a tough one with, hey, you know, you may not hear from me for three or four days. That was probably the roughest part of the three months while we were down there, you know, deal with the source that I developed, which is another funny story. Let's hear that one. When I got over there, like I said before, during this, I tried to look at each case as just the case. What would I do in narcotics? What would I do in a robbery squad?

And while I was heading over to Afghanistan, I was thinking, okay, now it's mine. You know, Jim was there, did his thing. Now this is my ballgame. and I said the number one thing I need is the source. I need someone on the ground. I'm not from Afghanistan. I need to have someone who knows what's going on over there.

So I got together with the agency and they had a couple of suggestions of, okay, we can use this guy. We can use this guy. And I went, okay, I don't want any of them because I don't trust a terrorist. I trust a criminal. As weird as that is, I trust a criminal more than a terrorist. I said, I want to know who you're your worst criminal. in this country is. And they kind of looked at me and smirked a little bit.

And I said, that's who I want. And they go, well, we kind of have one. I said, okay, cool. Let's hook it up. That's who I want. My source ended up being the largest number one heroin dealer in the entire country. He was my source. And he didn't get along great with the agency.

He didn't trust them. He didn't like him. So at first, there was a little pushback with listening. He's not, he doesn't, you know, cooperate. He doesn't talk to us. It may not go well working with him. I said, I don't care. I'm giving it a shot.

Let's hook it up. I'll deal with him. So it got hooked up. And then, you know, we found out he was the biggest heroin dealer around. So we met him down in Kandahar, which is, like I said, the southern part of we had to fly down there and meet him. And when we met him, it was a scene out of a movie. And it was so cheesy. that if you made it, that scene, a movie,

people would have laughed at it. We're standing on the side of the road outside one of the military bases down there. And on the road, you see all the SUVs and all the dust and all the smoke. And again, it was like a cheesy scene of, here comes the bad guy. But that's what it was. And he shows up in his entourage of like five or seven SUVs. And he gets out and we talked to him. And he went to school in Chicago.

I mean, so his English is perfect. He knows where we're from. I mean, you know, but what did I do with him? I told him right away, I'm not one of them. I'm a cop. And, you know, we sat down and we pick a location that we're going to go meet. Outside. We weren't going to sit on the side of the road and talk.

And we end up driving down the road. And this was an important story. And I'll get to why another crazy part of this in a couple of minutes. but Jimmy and I made a pact. It was a different gym. I had two gyms I worked with. Jimmy and I made a pact, and it was on the route to talk to him that we made this.

And we just said to each other, we're not getting kidnapped. No matter what, if we have to, and I don't mean this as a tough guy, I really don't. But if we have to die in a gunfight or whatever, fine. We're not getting tailed hostage. I'm a head cut off on Al Jazeera. That's not happening.

So we just shook on it and said, okay, and we had that pack. So while we're driving and we're following his entourage on either side of our cars, two pickup trucks with like 10 guys in each truck pointing AK-47s at us. And we're like, all right, well, I'm glad we just made that pack, Jim. And that was his, like, security team. And we get to where we got to get to and we sit down and we talk. And Jimmy knew my line. So he didn't take any offense to this. He understood what I was doing.

So we sit down in this little hut and he comes on and he sits down and we start going over what I need. And I said to him, listen, I'm not one of him. I'm a cop. I said, I don't give a rat's ass what you do in this country. I'm not here for you. You could sell all the heroin you want. You can go tomorrow and kill five people. I don't care.

I'm not here for you. I don't care. One bit. I need to get this guy home. and that resonated big with him of understand any trust me that I said and I was serious I don't care what he did that wasn't my goal my goal wasn't to worry about what he I needed his information and he was wired into every part of that country and that was the part that I needed and the agency would get pissed off because I would show up to a meeting go yeah he called me and they go he called you he doesn't

call us I go he doesn't like you of course not going to call you and we got along the way we needed to get along. And that was important. And he had, he would get us proof of life videos, which we never had to make sure the hostage was okay. And he was alive and well, we got a couple of those. And then like I said, you know, it worked out. I can't get into why or how it worked out.

But it worked out that we got him out. And he did have a part in that. Was it weird being in a country where like a guy like him is able to operate freely? and America doesn't really intervene because the end justifies the means. Yeah. And there was a reason for that because of who he was and not to get into who he was.

But there was a reason for that. And if I told you, you understand why. There was a reason he was allowed to do that. But it's a lawless place. I mean, you know, people that ask me all the time, what was it like there? And say it's rocks and dirt and bad guys. That was it.

That was all that was. there. And you just, you, you know, went in Rome kind of thing. And that's kind of how it was. And to have a presence of a law enforcement there, you know, did it mean a lot? No. You know, but he understood why I was there. That, you know, were we going to arrest anyone? No, that was not the point. Either the military was going to do what they had to do if we located him or he was just going to get rescued and that was it. And that's what ended up happening in the end. Did that surprise you about these countries or did you know that going into it?

No, going in, you were very well aware of what it was going to entail. But the danger was what was more worrisome, not the cultural aspect of it or the political aspect of it. It was there's so much terrorists running around here. They know who we are. Like driving a car, for instance. When you would drive a car, when we would drive our car, yes, they were armor-plated cars and all that. but you didn't stop. You would get into a traffic circle and we would push cars out of the way to not stop our car because that's when we were most vulnerable.

Because everyone knew our trucks. So we couldn't stop our cars. And driving around there was very stressful. You know, if you were the passenger, your job was to watch the road. Watch people walking. Watch a double parked car. Watch a car coming out of a driveway or something. you know, so getting to A to B was always dangerous.

And then when you got back to the embassy, you kind of took a breath like, okay, cool, day's good. We're one piece. Let's go to sleep. You know, so the danger part of it was more of a thought than like the political thing going on there. Is it tough to have seen what you've seen and done the job you've done and then see like people maybe on like social media, try to like kind of throw things into the air that aren't even true like conspiracies and stuff like. No doubt. It's very hard to deal with that. That's why, you know, when you kind of stroll with it, you just keep going, you know, and past it. But, you know, the lack of education of how things are done and why things are done, people need to get more up on, you know, a simple thing, you know, not to the border. Okay. People think that, oh, it's just this and it's people immigrating or emigrating from. from one area of the world, and that's not the case.

You know, terrorists are so in tuned in what's going on in this country. And we saw it before 9-11. Before 9-11, the big opening in this country was the visa system. And they took advantage of that, and that's how they got in. The visa system was easy to get into. You know, but here was the difference with the visa system. You still have to provide a picture and a name. Everything else could be fake.

your date of birth, where you were going, all that. But they actually would require a picture and a, maybe a date of birth or whatever. But your picture was there and a name. Now, terrorists understand that all I need to do is walk across that piece of water and I'm in. Okay. The biggest obstacle that terrorists have is getting in the country. That's their biggest obstacle. Once they're here, planning, strategizing, targeting is easy.

Getting in here was always the biggest obstacle to a group of bad guys who wanted to do something here on the terrorist level. Now, what's holding them back? And when you see the numbers of people who are caught on the terror watch list, times that by two or three, that's who got in. You're only catching a small amount. And a small amount isn't even a small amount. It's big. It's a large amount of people who are getting caught on the list. How many people got in?

And once they're here, they settle in, they assimilate, they wait for that phone call. And that's the scary part. And then, you know, so when you hear people go, oh, it's not that big of a deal, these people just want to come here and work. I get that. There's many good people who want to take advantage of what's afforded them in this country. I get that. A thousand percent.

But you also have to include the bad actors who are taking advantage of what's going on. And that's taking place. So that's one thing answering your question. You know, people need to get educated on how dangerous that border is. So do you think that these terrorists are still able to live undetected even with today's technology in the country? Oh, yeah, because there's no, like I said, there's no pictures. There's no names. There's no, you know, point of contacts.

Where are you going to work? you know, even if you were coming into a country in your visa application or a 994 sheet, you were filling in when you were coming here, had a point of contact, where you were going, where you were staying. That was all listed on there. Now you can make anything up you want, any name you want. I don't even know, you know, are they taking your picture? Who knows?

Even with that, that can change in an hour, you know, what you look like. So it's to a point now of a real danger level. and now, again, how long have they been here, how long they're strategizing? You know, you hope the powers that be, JTTFs, local departments are lined up and have the resources and sources that are telling them, hey, this group is here, this group is here. And we won't know that until either something bad happens or they lock them up, you know, and we shouldn't know. And I don't want to know. That's their job. in that world, so I understand it. You don't want that information getting out there of how many

they're tracking, how many cases are open. You know, you don't want to go, you don't want to hear someone behind a podium going, we have 112 open terrorism cases. You don't want to hear that, you know, nor should that be out there. So you don't really know where they're at, but hoping they're on top of it. Well, now there's like domestic terrorism more than ever, like with some of these individuals that aren't from a different country. that are just homegrown in America. Yeah, you know, the homegrown part is dangerous because they're here. And it's the lone wolf theory, and it's either that or one or two guys.

And that becomes extremely dangerous because a lot of times the only way you find them out is if they slip up on social media, they goof up or someone gives them up. And they engage in a conversation that they shouldn't. and we hope for that sometimes. We have experts, thankfully, that are social media gurus, that are all over social media looking for keywords and patterns and all stuff like that. So you hope they make a mistake. And a lot of times criminals do.

They make that one mistake that leads us to enable us to do our job and to stop something or get in front of something and open an investigation so you have a better view of them. But is there still room for improvement? Because in some of these high profile cases in America, you see that these individual social medias, there were red flags that kind of got by. Oh, there's always room for improvement. You could always improve something. And when you have, you know, that's a different conversation.

That's the social media giants being responsible for what they're putting out there. And that needs to be corralled. Yes, you want everyone in this country to have the freedoms of the First Amendment. no doubt about it. That is rock solid in our Constitution and everyone believes that. But when it gets to a danger level and you have terrorist organizations, documented terrorist organizations, putting stuff on social media that needs to be reported, where, who, all their info, now is on their info, bogus and not true? Yes. But there's ways around that. And there's always room for improvement. There's always a next level that we're.

we can get to on the technology world and technology level. And that's why a lot of times the government hires these people who are involved in this, who, you know, know how to hack and know how to track and know how to get, you know, into these groups. And that's what's needed. But improvement all the time, absolutely. Yeah, I remember being in middle school and how accessible it was when, like, ISIS first was out there on social media and the beheadings and everything,

that we were able to just so freely see that on, like, Facebook. Crazy. Yeah, that never should have happened. Absolutely right. And that's what I mean. You know, there bears a responsibility with the power that they have. And that has to be realized. And consequences, and you get into this, consequences have to be made or sentenced when things like that are out there.

Because they shouldn't have the ability to do that. And that's a flaw that hopefully is fixed and rectified and continues to be. you know, rectified when, when bad things are put out on social media. And a lot of it's just like a slap on the wrist. Like, there was some company that was charged criminally, but no one goes to prison. When a company is charged criminally, they get fined. They get fine. And they can pay it.

They're a billion trillion dollar company. Absolutely right. Right. And that's, you know, that's, that's another congressional level argument of what is necessary out there, what's dangerous and what's an everyday occurrence out there that kids are seeing. And other terrorist organizations are saying because that's a lot of times how they're communicating as well, you know, on social media platforms, code words, you know, keywords that means certain things. So it needs to be, you know, I hate using the word monitor or track.

I hate using that. But you know what I mean. It's just it's got to be checked out a certain way. Why did you decide to retire from the task force or leave? 30 years was a nice round number. And you know what? I started to see a little difference in what was going on and what objectives were and what the task force and the FBI were kind of hyper-focused on. And I wasn't into that.

So it was just it was the right time. And it ended up being really the right time because I actually retired a week before the world fell apart with COVID. So it was literally a week before. that I got out. So that timing was good. But it just, you know, you talk to everybody who is on the verge of retiring or coming to that point and you always hear the term you'll know. And I just knew it was just, it was time to go. Like I said, things were changing and moving in a direction that I wasn't really into anymore. And not throwing a resume out, but there wasn't a lot I didn't do that I didn't get to accomplish, you know, what I accomplished

or what I got to do on this job, most of it, a lot of detectives don't get to experience. You know, again, 19 different countries dealing with people from the White House and the Pentagon and talking to them, Afghanistan, you know, and the people I got to meet and, you know, got asked to participate in certain things. You know, it was all great. And I was very fortunate.

I'll say it all the time. I was blessed with the career I had. But, you know, I think I just worked hard to get to that. And it all just came together at the right time. And I think it was the right time to go. Do you think if you weren't in the task force, you would have retired earlier? Because policing had already changed drastically even in New York City, you know, by COVID. No doubt about it.

I wouldn't have been 30 years. You know, I was in a really good spot in JTTF and enjoying what I was doing. and in the midst of doing things, which was why kind of I couldn't get out because I was always in the middle of a case and doing something else. So there wasn't, you know, I never afforded myself to say,

okay, now because I was always in the middle of something, which is the way I wanted it. But if I was in Bronx homicide or something like that, no, it probably would have been a lot sooner. Do you ever think about like what life would have been, like if you got to homicide, which is where you wanted to be? I would have loved it.

You know, I always said that. I would have never regretted any of that because, you know, again, my dad, my dad and I were with the tightest two around. That's what he did. And I remember going with him before a Yankee game to his office and seeing how they worked and hearing the stories of, I mean, you couldn't drive anywhere in the city without a dozen stories. That building we did this and that building we did that. That corner had three homicides that we solved.

and, you know, all that. So it was always something I wanted to do. So if that was my path and where I ended up, I would have been thrilled with that. When you retire from a position like yours, what's that first day like? Like, one day you're on this, doing this, you know, saving the world. And then it just, what is it? It's different. And it's great you ask that because I've always been asked that.

And the one analogy I come up with, it's like walking forward for 30 years. and someone telling you to walk backwards. You'll get it. You'll stumble at first. It's going to be weird, but you'll eventually get it. But the first day was weird, you know, because you're doing something. You're just programmed to do something a certain way for more. I mean, think about more than half my life.

I've been doing this or I was doing this when I retired. And it took a little getting used to. and a lot of times you see things on the news and you go, I wish I was doing that. I wish I was involved in that. But then you get to do something else. You're like, I know, I don't want to do that anymore. You know, and I think that hit a lot in the summer of 2020 and 2021 watching the riots

and everything that was going on. And even in New York, you know, in stores burning and cops getting hurt. And for the first time in my adult life, sitting on a couch going, wow, I'm not going to be down there. My phone's not going to blow up and ring off the hook, you know, and I have to leave at midnight, you know, to fly down to the city. I don't have to do that anymore. And, you know, day by day by day, you get more used to it.

And now I'm glad I got out when I did. And I was right about it being the right time because of everything that's happened since then with the show and impact and all. that. So that even makes it even more of a good decision what I made. So does the phone just stop ringing? Like on a Tuesday, you know, you're in and it's blowing up and then Wednesday you're retired, it's done? Yeah, because here's the funny part. This is a great, I love telling the story. For 17 years, I had the FBI's phone. They gave us, we had department phones. So I never really had my own phone. I used their phone.

There was no reason for me to have two phones. In my mind, that was dumb. I never did that. So I had their phone and I had the same number for 17 years. Then I retire. That goes away. I have to go to Verizon and buy a phone, which I've never done. So we go and buy one.

Now I have to remember a new number. And I never, you know, all our phones got set up for us. I remember I got my phone. I tried to memorize the number, which I did. It's kind of an easy number. And I literally handed my phone to my daughter. My oldest daughter was like, here, set this up.

I don't know. Go ahead. Put whatever app you think I need. Set the screen up, the colors, do everything you want. I'm good with it. And she did. So, you know, she said it all up. It was like, okay, here, you're all set.

And, you know, so that was, you know, a reality hit of, all right, now, you know, not meaning it this way. but like, I'm a normal person now. You know, I don't have a department phone. I don't have this. I don't have that. So that was always a fun story to tell with the phone. Because like you said, it's a, it switches.

Yeah, like, I can't imagine, like, if my phone blows up every day because, like, all the guests have my phone number. So, like, would that compounds over time? So, like, I can't picture a day. Like, if I'm not doing the podcast, if it would have ever stop, you know? Oh, yeah. And then when I was in the club business, that was the same way. until the FBI took my phone when I got arrested and I had to go to the AT&T store,

get a new phone. You know, but now, now my phone blows up for the show and for, I mean, more of the show than anything. So I know exactly what you mean. Now my wife will laugh at me going, you're working more now than you ever did. You are not, can you put your phone down for a minute? And like you said, guests scheduling, can you do this promo? Can you do that, you know, is not. But here's the difference.

I love every time my phone goes off. You know, I do. I treasure this time that I have in what's going on with our show. So literally every time the phone, I get an alert, it's cool. Because it's Instagram, it's Facebook, it's YouTube, it's a guest. Like you said, it's always something good, which wasn't the case working. it was oh god what am i doing now what do i got to go do now where am i going now now it's you know a member of seal team six going hey to me a call cool all right you know that's you know that's what i mean

it's it's getting an email from you hey be on my show you know things like that are it's a dramatic difference of of what busy is now it's an enjoyable busy and you know it's so cool to see you have this whole career and then you you go and you build a business after and that's like relatable to the guys that you know they lived a life of crime went to prison or battled addiction, then they are able to convert that into this too. So at any time in your life, you can build something. Oh, yeah. That's a big part, you know, of our show. We say that all the time. You know, there's another life after this. And I'm going to give her a big plug, you know, if I can. Yeah, of course. Jessica Flores has a show called Next Shift.

and I send so many people to her because her whole platform is she was a cop, she got hurt, she got forced off the job, oh crap, what am I doing? You know, because a lot of us in law enforcement, like me, start off as an eight-year-old wanting to do this job. And that's all you wanted to do. Then you get the opportunity to do it. And like me, following your dad's footsteps or whatever. and there's thousands of those stories, then you get hurt and can't do it anymore.

And the depression, alcoholism, drug addiction, you know, all that comes into play. And just as show gets people from that to your next shift in life, in a job, in this and that. And she's incredible what she does. And I just had a conversation with someone the other day who texts me, hey, Tom, who got, really banged up and bad and she was actually inducted into the National Law Enforcement

Officers Hall of Fame the same night I was and she called me said hey everything's good I can be on your show now you know I'm getting off the job finally and she got really banged I mean her story's wild what happened to her and I said okay great you know we'll schedule it you know for season three and everything and my next text was to Jess to get her together with her because it was, all right, what is she doing now? And, you know, she was kind of like that on the text like, hey, I'm done. And I'm like, okay, standby. I know who you're going to talk to.

That's awesome. You know, so you have, and that's what this show does, you know, and you know it. You meet so many people that can help other people and get messages out there and assist others because sometimes getting off this job is really, really difficult. Yeah, and I think I'm starting at, like, I think law enforcement is starting to be more comfortable, ex-law enforcement with coming on the show. Now I'm working on like the judges and the prosecutors because like they're like when they find out that I was in prison and this and that, like they don't get that.

Like yeah, it's a crime show and you use that to kind of like push the views up. But it's like it's just different than your average prison YouTube channel or anything like that. And I think that's what I'm trying to get to these professionals. And the more that come on like yourself, I think it helps change that narrative. Oh, I agree. And that's what we do. you know, in our show, you know, there's so many, and there's so many stories out there that no one knows.

You know, you might hear a little snippet of it on the news or whatever. And if we're in the position and have the platform to get stories out there. And a big part of why we started this was because of all the negativity that was going on in 2020 and 2021 of law enforcement. You know, you couldn't get anything good, you know, said anywhere. And Danny and I said there's so many good stories out there of cases that guys worked hard and girls worked hard on and got bad guys and went through hell to do it. Let's get them out there. And like you said before, you just mentioned it, educating people. You know, this is a hard job.

And 90% of this country wouldn't do our job for an hour. And they wouldn't. You know, you tell them, okay, good. Take that 40-pound ram, cave that door in and they run into a room. You have no idea what's behind it. Go ahead, go do it with that. And no, I'm not doing that. Us idiots did that.

You know, and this idiot did it more because when I was in narcotics, I was the Ram guy. So I did that all the time. But that goes to the funny saying that's at a fun, you know. But 90% of the people in this country won't do it. And we wanted to get those stories out there of the difficulties of this job, both mentally and physically, because the mental health aspect needs to be addressed in this country as well. well when it comes to law enforcement and the military. Yeah, and I think there's a way to go about these interviews where you could pull interesting information with being respectful and not like broaching on what they can and can't talk about.

And like we had a, I thought this interview was fascinating and we didn't talk about anything classified or, you know, name names. Like I think there's a respectful way to go about it. And I think that's like the direction like I'm learning to take the show in and stuff like that. Because the criminals could come on and say, oh, they stabbed this person. They killed this person, but you have to navigate differently with the professionals. Yeah. No, absolutely.

And, you know, there's stories that people aren't comfortable talking about. But it's funny when you start kind of down that road and they get a little bit more comfortable and you get a little bit more out of them. Like, you know, and for us was the mental health issue. We never had a plan to address that on our show. You know, that wasn't like, okay, when we set the show up and launched it, okay, we need to hit this. But what we found was as we were interviewing cops and vets from the military, everyone started talking about that.

You know, oh, I went through this or I had a tough time doing this and I became, you know, an alcoholic and I had anxiety and I was depressed. And it was one after another, Ian. And we like, all right, we need to start talking about this. This is a real thing. and then that led us into organizations that we're now part of that get into that and address those issues. Cop line, the wounded blue, Irish Angel. You know, we're involved with all these groups now because of how important it ended up being.

It kind of slapped us in the face, not realizing. And then you start thinking about your own, like, all right, what did I go through, that we weren't allowed to talk. about back then. You know, you didn't bring up mental health or or anything like that when we were on the job because you immediately got grabbed. Your gun and shield were taken. You were putting on a desk in the middle of nowhere on the midnight. Isn't that crazy? And that was it. Yeah. You're gone. You're done. You're having like nightmares. Nope. You're done. You're finished. And you know, now there's still a stigma. There's still a barrier that needs to be broke in the law enforcement community with with having the resources to reach out to these officers who are going through really, really bad things

that lead to problems at home. And, you know, but unfortunately, there's a lot of cops in this country that are scared to death to talk about it because they're worried about their department doing something to them, taking them off the road. So they try to handle it themselves and some people can and a lot can't. And that's when you get into the dark side of this job. And there is a very dark side to law enforcement. And that's what, you know, we try to bring up and talk about. But there is a really negative dark side that this job can lead you to.

Do you ever see a world where crime doesn't exist to the level that it kind of operates now? No, but I think there's a kind of generational thing. There's times it's going to go down. as times it goes up. It used to be a pretty solid 20-year cycle of downs and ups and downs and ups. And you see that a little more now. I think, is crime ever going to go away? No, that that's not going to happen. Because there's so many people that just are in the take advantage of world and I deserve this and you're not going to stop me from getting this. So I don't think that's going to stop. But I think it can be curbed. even more than it is.

But like we said in the beginning of this, you need the right people on board to do that. Can it be accomplished? No doubt about it. You can have a society that is sustainable. And yes, are there bad guys? Yes. But it's not here.

It's not at the highest level. Like we, you know, think about it like this. I mentioned to you when we started on this job, when I started on this job, There were 2,800 to 3,000 homicides in the city a year. You look at now, people, you know, cops now and administrators now, and people that live in New York City are losing their mind that the city is out of control. That's 600 homicides last year.

Live 30 years ago in New York City and then have that conversation with me. Things are still okay. The NYPD is still doing their job. and, you know, keeping crime down, you know, their numbers opposed to a lot of other big cities in this country are down. And it's because of men and women out there doing their job. And there is a level of the NYPD that has their back. Do other parts of the city, like the DA in Manhattan? No.

But that's not going to stop cops from doing their job. And those things change over time. Absolutely, right. Right. That's why you have to continue to do your job. because at some point, the right person is going to be in there. At some point, people are going to start voting the way they should. You know, I've said this so many times that people need to stop voting on what letters at the end of someone's name.

And all you need to do is listen to what these people say. So you need to do. And a lot of times, it's like, oh, God, I don't want that. Yeah, no kidding. Then don't vote for that. All you need to do. And they don't hide it. You know, these really radical people are not hiding the way they are because they want that side to keep voting for them.

But it's the other side that just votes because it's that line is what the danger is in this country and where we're at now because too many people are doing that. And if you just listened for five minutes to some of these people talk, your head would blow up. like, all right, I can't have that for my family. And then you vote the other way, you know, and you have to start voting of what's right for you, what's right for your family, what's going to keep you safe, what's going to put money in your pocket, you know, all things like that and stop with the personalities and stop with the identity politics and just vote with what's going to make us better. And that's it.

Absolutely. Well, Tom, thank you so, so much for coming out to Connecticut today to spend your Saturday with me. Absolutely. It was a great. Yeah, I had a blast talking to you. I really hope people, you know, support your business. I think it's awesome.

Thank you very much. We'll have all the links to everything. And I should be seeing you soon. Oh, we will. Absolutely will. And everyone for you, Gold Shields, Ian is going to be on. So that's a future guest. But thank you so much for the opportunity.

It means a lot, you know, when we're involved in what we do to get asked to do a show like this with you was a privilege. so thank you very much. Thank you. Who would have thought a cop would be saying that to me? I told you I'm a different cop. I like it.