Locked In with Ian Bick - Psychologist Discusses PTSD Caused by Prison Experiences | Mental Health Insights | David Bonanno

Episode Date: June 23, 2024

A psychologist delves into the topic of PTSD caused by prison experiences. Discover how incarceration can impact mental health, the symptoms of PTSD in former inmates, and the therapeutic approaches used to support their recovery. Learn about the challenges faced by those re-entering society and the importance of mental health resources for a successful transition. Join us for a comprehensive discussion on the intersection of prison and mental health. Hosted, Executive Produced & Edited By Ian Bick: https://www.instagram.com/ian_bick/?hl=en https://ianbick.com/ Connect with David Bonanno: https://www.doctorbonanno.com/ Powered by: Just Media House : https://www.justmediahouse.com/ Creative direction, design, assets, support by FWRD: https://www.fwrd.co Buy Merch: https://lockedinbrand.com Use code lockedin at checkout to get 20% off your order Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Society's Misconceptions of PTSD 00:04:10 - Prison Life and PTSD 00:08:06 - Lack of Understanding of PTSD 00:12:02 - Experiences in Prison 00:16:09 - The Failures of Therapy with PTSD 00:20:32 - Biased Court-Ordered Therapy 00:24:29 - The Benefits and Concerns of EMDR Therapy 00:28:25 - The Power of Connection in Therapy 00:32:20 - Writing a Book with a Psychological Twist 00:36:27 - The Desire to Feel Special and Accepted 00:40:22 - Habits and PTSD 00:44:38 - Triggers and conditioning 00:48:37 - The Impact of Nervousness during Police Encounters 00:52:40 - The Effects of Adrenaline on First Responders 00:56:37 - Finding Inspiration and Discovering Passions 01:00:15 - Advice for PTSD 01:04:14 - Farewell and Future Collaborations Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Graham and Hemmy are registered trademarks of FCAUS LLC. I feel like society, when they hear the word PTSD, they're automatically assuming something to do with the war or the military or like an extremely tragic accident or car crash or something like that. Very rarely do they associate it with, say, prison. Yeah, and, you know, I think that anybody's been incarcerated for maybe even more than like three months. Like, I would say 100% of them have PTSD.

Dr. Banana, welcome to Lockton. How's it feel to be our first psychologist on the show? Oh, pretty good. And I think maybe our first doctor. I don't know if we've had a, we might have had a couple doctors. I'm not sure. But you're our first psychologist for sure. Very exciting.

Yeah. Yeah, thanks for having me for sure. Yeah. It's a nice break to get professionals on the show here and there, especially for the audience, because they hear an entirely different perspective, because they listen to individuals who have endured it and have gone through it and have lived the trauma. And then you have someone like yourself here who gives kind of like those in-death psychological analysis of it, which is interesting.

And not many shows have that kind of dynamic where you have both. Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, so I don't know if you knew, but I'm the first person in America to start helping people to qualify for medical marijuana in different states by evaluating them for mental health disorder. So especially PTSD. So I've talked to personally over 12,000 people in the last nine years. And then my company's helped almost 20,000 people to qualify for medical marijuana. And of course, I started talking to all kinds of people who've been incarcerated. And that's how I really learned a lot about PTSD. I mean, I thought I had,

I knew quite a bit after I graduated, but I think the books and just society as a whole doesn't really know how to conceptualize PTSD to really know what it is. And so that's one of the things I'd love to talk about today. And I feel like society, when they hear the word PTSD, they're automatically assuming something to do with the war or the military or like an extremely tragic accident or car crash or something like that. Very rarely do they associate it with, say, prison. Yeah, and you know, I think that anybody's been incarcerated for maybe even more than like three months. Like, I would say 100% of them have PTSD. And the reason I say that is because I'm not going by just the clinical, like, you know, in the DSM-5, which is the big book of psychological disorders, there's 19 criteria and you have to have all 19 of them in order to qualify as PTSD. So I've met people with like 17 or 18.

and the doctor says, well, you don't have anything. Let's call it anxiety. Here's a whole bunch of pills. I mean, I had a woman say to me one time, like how many times do I got to get raped before I can get diagnosed with PTSD? So anyway, the way that I define it is that it's your fight or flight system is just overactive. And it kicks in, you know, when you don't want it to when you're triggered. But it also, for a lot of us, doesn't really go away.

So you always have a certain amount of adrenaline. And so when you, and by the way, you know, if you look up PTSD, there's no definition. It's only a list of symptoms. So I kind of don't blame people if they don't really know what it is. Like if you were to ask somebody, what is it? Like they don't have a convenient definition. But anyway, just being in prison, if you could theoretically have a person who didn't experience anything terrible or see anything terrible, which I mean, who's that?

You know, who's incarcerated doesn't go through those things? it's still training your brain to be completely hypervigilant because, correct me from wrong, but you can't let your guard down when you're in there, right? Absolutely. You're kind of on high alert all the time. It's only if you're right to a camp where, you know, it's like a country club and you're more relaxed. But even then, there's snaky stuff that goes on. You're in prison.

It's prison, you know, it's not, it's not, even the cushy spots, there's still elements where you have to be on your guard. it could be something as simple as someone stealing from you or telling on you or planting a phone on you. And those are all things where something as little as planting a phone on you, you're in solitary now for a couple months. And that develops PTSD in itself right there. Oh, man. Yeah. People say that's the worst. I did six months. In solitary? Yeah. Because they're, you know, protective custody, you know, when they're traveling, when you have to be.

move from the compound, anything like that. It's all the same spot. It's just a cell smaller than this room, probably half the size of this room, with your bunk bed, a toilet, and a desk, and that's it. And wreck is just in another cell. They'll pop the doors and drag you to wreck. You're showering. They handcuff you to bring you the shower.

It's not a good thing. And you could go crazy in there. I used to read a book a day when I was in there. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you were able to do that. I mean, they treat you like an animal. and you have to act like an animal to survive, I guess. I mean, that's where I really kind of put two and two together

in terms of insomnia and PTSD, because I wasn't aware of any type of connection there, but it's because your brain develops PTSD as a healthy response to an unhealthy situation, and that adrenaline doesn't just go away. So that's why, in my opinion, nobody can sleep in or after jail. And as a matter of fact, like it, It's even the same thing.

So one of the things I noticed, Ian, when I was talking to all these people, is how the symptoms of PTSD are very similar, and it doesn't really depend on what caused it. So, like, you could have a war veteran who would have very similar, you know, symptomatology as somebody who was molested, for example, or just grew up in a really tough area. And, you know, one thing I have to give credit to veterans, because I never hear about somebody who talks to a veteran and then they say,

oh, you think you got it. I went to Afghanistan. Like, they're never trying to have a monopoly on PTSD. You know what I mean? Like, they're always like, oh, shit, you got what I got. You got to call this guy, you know? So when I realized I had PTSD, it was 10 years after I got my doctorate. So, I mean, like, I thought I knew what was going on.

And by the way, I became a psychologist, so I could figure out what the hell is wrong with you. I mean, just like everybody else. And I didn't really get the answers. And when I realized I had PTSD, that was my first thought. It's like, I'm not trying to compare myself to war heroes or take anything away from them or anybody else. But on the other hand, I meet people with horror stories and they have no idea they have PTSD and even really resist it when I start talking that way because they're like, no, I'm not, what do you mean? I'm not going to be one of those people thinking like I'm belly aching, even though they've been through hell. and for a lot of people life is a war, you know?

Yeah. So you served in the military? No, no, I didn't. That's what I was thinking. Like, when I realized I had PTSD, that was my first thought. It's like, I'm not trying to compare myself to those guys or take anything away from them. Okay. But it's just such an indelible stereotype, I think, because, you know, you really, your heart goes out to those guys.

You know what I mean? They put themselves on the line for us. And now their life is totally different and compromised in so many different ways. And, I mean, I, they've become. such a poster, like, people for PTSD that I was talking to a therapist in Mexico, and I asked him, what's the situation down there? And he said, people, nobody in Mexico thinks they have PTSD. They think it's for American combat veterans. I'm like, well, you guys have drug wars. Like, you got a lot of shit going out down there. Like, yeah. So, I mean, it's really unfortunate. It's

very unfortunate how little understanding there really is, even among doctors and therapists about what PTSD is. Yeah, and just a society as a whole. They have no idea. And I'm sure a lot of people that come on the show have PTSD in their own regards. I mean, you think about the stores we hear about people getting raped or assisting in a murder or just the things that they're thrown into involuntarily because they're put in prison. And then it poses a question, okay, the person did a crime, whatever happened, that's their punishment. But then do they deserve all the mental trauma? that comes with that, you know? Yeah, I mean, I actually wrote my essay to get into grad school about the criminal justice system.

That's what I wanted to do it because I worked at an alternative incarceration center after I, and for people who are not in Connecticut or who don't know about it, it's just, it's like a diversionary program to keep you out of prison. And so I was working with all these offenders and like I just realized how prison is, It doesn't work really as a punishment because, you know, I mean, it is a punishment, I suppose. That's the only way that it works. It's not a deterrent. Anybody who commits a crime thinks they're going to get away with it. They're not doing this detailed cost-benefit analysis when they decide to, you know, commit a crime or whatever.

It does incapacitate them away from society, but it's rehabilitative for very few people. And I think it could be so much better. I mean, I think so many of us in society just don't give a shit and like, fuck those people. And I'm not one of those people. And by doing that, you're sort of dehumanizing them. But what happens in our prisons is just a travesty. Like, this is a first world country. And when you go to jail, I mean, you know, I don't have to tell your audience.

I mean, they treat you like an animal and you have to act like an animal. So PTSD is a very healthy response to an entirely unhealthy situation, in my opinion. I feel like the rehabilitation part is 99% psychological. Like you have to be willing. I've met a ton of guys in there where, you know, you have guys that are just looking for the next hustle, looking for the next crime, looking for how they can improve and do things better. And when they're in there, there's nothing that stimulates their mind. There's no conversations like me and you are having.

Yeah. It's all, they're being showed a lack of emotion, a lack of care. They're just like one and a group of hundreds and thousands. And I think if there was more conversations like for me, because of the way I think I had my next plans all planned out for a feature and how I wanted to rebound and rebuild, and that was what I've been able to create now and getting a job at Whole Foods after and having that success. That wasn't because I went to prison.

That was just because of my mentality that, you know, prison helped me develop because I had no choice but to develop that. But for most people, it doesn't work that way. And they don't have that one-on-one time. And they look at therapy or, you know, sitting down with someone in a bad way. There's a negative, you know, restraints to that. Yeah. I wish that prison was much more just healthy.

And I guess people, you know, are feeling like, well, screw those people. They deserve what they get. But yeah, they're going to have to come back to society. And we've made it so hard for people to get housing or to get a job. I mean, when I talk to somebody, I always ask, like, I'm talking about my people who are qualifying for medical marijuana. I'll ask, what do you do for work and what do you do for fun? If they say I work at a warehouse, I'm like, oh, okay, when did you get out?

You know, like, that's the only job they seem to be able to get. And they work with a whole bunch of other ex-cons and everybody's on edge. And, like, you know, it's just, I talk to a guy. who he was Caucasian and he was convicted of embezzling, he couldn't get a job at Wendy's. Like he, like they got all excited. He came in and they're like, oh, we really need somebody.

And then the manager comes back and like, oh, we can't hire you at all. Because he best, what's he going to freaking steal from the cash register? You know, like the, and I mentioned he's Caucasian because racism wasn't a factor there. But I mean, of course, I don't even know what the statistics are for minorities and how much more often they're incarcerated than, you know, white people, but it's really just crazy. It's just too bad. Now, does PTSD discriminate age-wise?

Like, say someone is a young person that goes to prison, for example, we'll use prison as the base. If a teenager goes to prison versus an adult that goes to prison is one more susceptible than the other to develop PTSD from their experience, is one immune to it? Well, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah, great question. First of all, nobody's immune to it. And, you never get used to this stuff. So like it all adds up. So, so yeah, if people have been through multiple traumas in their life, they're much more likely to have PTSD.

And of course, the way I'm defining it is not by the clinical standards where it's all or nothing. I'm thinking it's somewhat of a continuum and who gets through life unscathed as it is, you know. But if you're young, then your brain is, and if it's still forming, you know, which it still is until around 21 or 22, then that's, your brain will adapt to whatever situation you're in. So even, like if you grow up in a,

in a tough area, for example, and let's say your parents argue a lot, like that's very, those are two huge risk factors because it's going to orient your brain so that you're trying to, first of all,

read the environment. I mean, that's part of the whole thing. Like, it's your amygdala, you know, in your brain, it's responsible for sounding the alarm inside of your head, but it's also responsible for being able to detect danger. So if you have to detect danger, for example, if your father, for example, is explosive and doesn't necessarily even hit you, verbal abuse is really also extremely damaging for people, by the way. And I hope

I'm not jumping around too much, but I get so excited about this stuff. There's, a lot I want to say, you know, but, um, so, so yeah, the younger you are exposed to any type of trauma, the worst it is, in my opinion, um, because your brain's going to adapt in a healthy way. And then, yeah, you know, you never get immune to it. Um, and I, I don't know what the cutoff would be, but, um, I would, I would say like anybody who spends a significant amount of time in a, in a close environment where it's dangerous and you have to watch out for yourself, you're going to have PTSD. And then, so I wrote a book, if anybody's interested in it.

It's called Your Brain is a Robocat. I finally understand your trauma response. And so Robocat is a metaphor for how our brains work. And so there's two different systems at work at the same time. So there's your logical brain, which everybody wants to identify with. And that's what I call the robot. And then there's your emotional fight or flight brain, which is like a cat, and I call it a cat, because you can't get cats to do what you want.

And it kind of has a mind of its own. So when people, you know, try to give you advice, and they'll say, like, well, you know, you're not in prison anymore, so just relax. Like, well, that makes sense to your robot brain, and it makes sense to the other person's robot brain, but it has nothing to do with the cat brain. So if you're telling somebody who's full of adrenaline, you're... safe, just relax, it's all good, just chill out. That's like telling somebody who's full of alcohol, why don't you just be sober? Like, just be sober. That's what I'm doing. And so it doesn't work that way at all. And unfortunately, one of the things I would like to talk about today is how therapy

fails people with PTSD. Most therapy appeals to the robot part of your brain. And that's cognitive behavioral or even just talk therapy. And, you know, the idea that Sigmund Freud had was that as you're talking about your pain, you're supposed to be releasing your pain. But that's only if you've been holding something in forever. And those were the people he was dealing with in the 1880s, so 140 years ago, he's dealing people who had held secrets in forever. And then they finally get to talk to him. There was a whole lot of sexual abuse going on in Vienna at that time in Austria. And so he assumed that talking about stuff is the cure.

It's called the talking cure. And the more that you talk about it, the more you're curing yourself. And most therapists these days still operate of those exact same principles. And that's what I was taught as well. So I'm not really, you know, faulting people. But I think I wish that we could move beyond that because there's only so much we can do with our robot brain. You know, I mean, like, the question that has haunted me forever until I finally figured

out was why do smart people do stupid shit? I mean, like, you know, you look at somebody like, well, he's a really smart guy. Why is he an alcoholic? Like, that's just, that's not smart. You know what I mean? Or like, why is he, why is she triggered by any man when, like, but she's really smart person. Doesn't she know that some men are good?

Like, no, it's her adrenaline. and it's all, it's the same exact thing that happens for any mammal, really. All right, class, settle down. Today's lesson is on the Arco Rewards app. Try to stay with me. The fundamentals are simple. Earn at least five cents a gallon in rewards, then redeem them later for up to a dollar off every gallon.

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One time I had a therapist say to me, you know, Dave, the past is in the past. So it doesn't make sense for you to still be bothered by it. I'm like, well, no shit. What the hell am I still doing here under your couch, you know? And you can't just change your state. You can't just change how your body reacts to situations or to triggers. And when you don't know that, which nobody knows that, you just feel guilty about it. And you feel like you're a weak person.

And then you start to feel ashamed. And so that's the big reason why I wrote my book, Ian, is so that people don't have to blame themselves like I did for so long. I mean, you know what's terrible is, you know, not just when you're realizing to yourself, like I'm really kind of crazy. As much work as I've done on myself, I'm really still kind of crazy. I have all these issues still. When you spend $200,000 out of doctorate and you're still fucking crazy,

that's a terrible feeling. Yeah, I mean, the thing that I'm very intrigued about the therapy aspect because I was someone that was like our parents, my parents had us do like some social worker thing with a family social worker building thing when we were young, wasn't into it. I went to prison and then I got court-ordered therapy where I had to go and I would have gotten in trouble

and, you know, my probation revoked if I didn't go. and it took me a long time to open up to this woman. And I think half of the problem was I was forced to be there. We as humans and males do not want to be told where to go at what time. And when you're court ordered somewhere, that company is looking out for themselves. So they're super strict. There's not much flexibility. You kind of feel like you're trapped in jail.

So you're going to that meeting with your defenses up on guard and in a situation where there's already barriers. as a regular person would. And then your therapist has to report to the authorities, right? I mean, how much can you trust? Exactly. You don't know whose side. And in the criminal justice system, you know, they say prosecutors, judges or whatnot are neutral parties. And when you see how they work so in tangent with each other, it kind of gives people the thought

that maybe it's not as fair and as just as one would expect it to be. So when you have something like therapy and it becomes court-ordered and mandatory, And I'm an advocate where I think it's very helpful, the therapy aspect, but not the court-ordered part. Because I think that becomes very biased in the reports. And it should be two entirely separate divisions. But in my experience, so I met with a therapist for a year. And it really helped. And she was in her 80s.

And she gave me a different perspective. And I thought that was great. But then when she left, because they pushed her out when they were doing layoffs during COVID, because they weren't doing in person, I got assigned to someone who didn't know me, didn't take the time to understand me, and it just wasn't a match. And that goes back to a big part of therapy

is you need to find the right match for you. What one person you're able to talk to is not going to be the same as you're able to talk to another person about. And I realize that I compare it now in hindsight podcasting because I'm able to draw certain information from a guest that another podcaster wouldn't be able to, and vice versa.

So now we take that logic and we apply it to therapy. And then you realize there's a different perspective of why it might, why some people are turned off and it doesn't work for some people because they haven't found that person yet. Yeah, that's, you're totally right. I totally agree with you. And I never want to come across as saying that therapy sucks or it's not good or that you shouldn't do it.

I do have some pretty harsh criticisms of it. And yeah, when it's court ordered, I never. like that. I mean, those people, like, you know, how many, there's a joke, how many psychologists does it change, how many psychologists does it take to change a light bulb? Only one, but the light bulb has to want to change, you know? And so, yeah, if you get people in here who, like, they, before I had kids, I was really jealous of everybody else because I was a late bloomer in life. I didn't have a biological kid of my own until it was like 45. And so, um, my dad had me at 50, so it's Oh, awesome.

And so everybody would come in and then they're like, oh, I love my kids. Like, I'd love just hanging out with my kids. And, like, they're making it sound like so great. And I'm like, why is that? And then I realized they think I'm going to try to get their talking kids taken away. And if, yeah, if they said one little wrong thing, I have to report it. And then that could happen. And of course, I mean, the courts are well-meaning and DCF is well-meaning.

But these are some of the ways that, yeah, the whole system gets kind of screwed. up. And so when you go to therapy, it can be really great to have an authentic relationship with somebody and for them to give you that, to help you to think about how you think. And there's so many good things about therapy, but one of the ways that it breaks down, and this is a problem that I had as a therapist with my people, is when you would get to that separation between the robot and the cat. So, you know, you're both sitting there and you're, I'm at me as the therapist. I'm racking my brain. Like, how do I help this woman trust her husband again after he cheated on her? She wants to be able to trust him again, but she keeps seeing

scenes in her head of like the, you know, the emails she found or whatever. The husband, of course, wants that to happen. And there was no way to be able to interface directly with the cat brain. emotional fight or flight brain until I discovered accelerated resolution therapy. So that is based on EMDR. I don't know if you guys have heard of EMDR, but it uses eye movements where you move your eyes back and forth and there's different theories of how that works. But first of all, I did EMDR as a client. For a lot of people, it's great.

For me, I had to relive all the worst shit that ever happened to me like every session. I was going to see this therapist in Middletown. I had to go like for a long walk after every session. because I would be so messed up. I couldn't drive home. And I'm wondering, like, is this really good for me, you know? I think whatever you focus on, you magnify, they make you focus on all the worst shit that ever happened to you.

And that's what they're trained to do. But, oh, man, I lost a train of thought for a second there. Yeah, so that's where therapy sort of breaks down is being able to influence that fight-or-flight part of your brain. Accelerated Resolution Therapy is based on EMDR, and if you guys ever get a chance to look it up, I think it's fantastic. And then I've developed my own iteration of that, which I think is a little better,

but it's called de-adrenalizing, and that's basically what it does, is it just takes the adrenaline right out of the situation. So you can have people who have been, for example, sexually assaulted, and it's really difficult for them to open up to somebody. And then when they do, of course, they're reliving. They're literally reliving what happened. I mean, the same neurons are firing as what happened as those were when it was happening.

I had a veteran one time told me that he went to a therapist and she made him talk about, you know, the worst stuff. And then he was throwing up in her garbage can. And she was like, this is so wonderful. you're symbolically releasing your pain. And he's like, I don't think so lady. You know, you never saw her again. So that's kind of what my book is about is helping people to understand exactly what is

happening with your brain when you are suffering from trauma and what to do about it. And if you could do some kind of eye movement therapy, hopefully not EMDR, but EMDR is better than regular talk therapy. That's how you bridge that gap between knowing what you should feel and actually. feeling it. Yeah. That makes sense. And something that you said that stood out was therapy is about getting someone to think about

their thoughts and their actions. And that's a big part of what we do here where, you know, maybe there's more to therapy than just sitting down with, like, I don't have a college degree. I'm not a licensed therapist. But what we're doing with individuals that come on the show and sit and talk, it has that same outcome as therapy because I'm someone that shares lived experience with them. We can relate. and I get them to think and open up about things that they wouldn't be comfortable opening up with someone that hasn't been through that experience.

So maybe as a whole in the world, we have to rethink, you know, about how we go about things and licensing and doctors and this and that. Just because I'm not a licensed therapist doesn't mean I can still pull that same effect and feeling out from someone that a licensed therapist could. Yeah. Yeah, I liked how you interviewed Rich. I thought you were a really smart, sensitive guy who thinks deeply. And yeah, you're asking like really compelling questions. And I'm sure that's what makes you a really good host. And you really care. And you're really curious. With therapy, there is a little bit. There's no, I don't want to say a little bit. Like it looks like talking to a friend. And I've had people say to me, well, you know, I'm. I'm asking, what is your goal here? And they're like, well, I don't have any friends. So you're just my paid friend. And for me, I had a real reaction to that because I'm like, dude, I went to four years

of school. I'm not just to be your prostitute friend, you know. Like you're, you know, diagnosing them. You're thinking about things on higher levels. There's a lot of stuff that's happening in therapy between the two people. As a therapist, you're supposed to use your own feelings about that person. to be able to give them feedback on how they come across to people. And I'm sure you do that as well.

I'm sure you have your gut feelings about your guests and how they affect you, and then you're able to steer the conversation where you want to go, right? I mean, you must have some real electric interactions with people, I would think, right? That's really interesting that you said that because when someone's telling you their deepest trauma and thoughts and feelings, do you think that that automatically forms a bond? because what I've seen is that when I have these interviews and you hear about technically their entire life story, in some cases people cry in front of you,

they share their deepest darkets secrets, and they let it all out for the first time. I feel like in that moment there's like this type of connection because afterwards it's like you've known them for so long and they want to stay in contact, and I guess it's kind of like those love at first sight things, but as like a friend type of thing, like that feeling, like I've experienced the feeling of love and this and that connection.

But it seems like these individuals I talk to experience that with me on a friend level because I want to stay in touch and talk and just like that connection and banter back and forth and that feeling that they experienced. Yeah, I definitely agree with you. People want to be seen and we hide so much of ourselves in trying to sort of micromanage everybody else's impressions of us. And, you know, like guilt is, I wish I didn't do that. Shame is I'm a bad person.

And shame goes hand in hand with secrecy. So people who feel shame, they have to hide parts of themselves. And to be able to actually reveal that, if you reveal something that you're ashamed about to somebody and then they don't believe you or they judge you, that is called secondary trauma. That's horrible. If they do it to somebody like yourself or a good therapist who really does care and is not going to judge them and it's just going to accept them and be there with them and commune with them. Yeah, that's absolutely connecting. And that's bonding for sure, absolutely. Now, you were just mentioning Rich. If you want to tell the audience who Rich is, Rich was a guest on our show. He was the drug mule hauler and money

load hauler who went viral on our friend Johnny Mitchell's platform. But describe your relationship with him and what he means to you. Yeah, thank you. So we're from the same area, like near Willamette, Connecticut, near Yukon, Lake Coventry, and so these little towns that really are very, like,

it's interesting how Connecticut is a little bit like Europe, there's like four or five different Connecticut you know, like, this is like the New York part, but then if you go near to Rhode Island, like that's entirely different and there's like, I don't know. But, so we're from this tiny little area. We knew a lot of people

in common but never cross paths until we started going to this thing called meat club which is like a bunch of guys get together at this cabin in the woods and we make cook meat and my wife doesn't understand i'm like yeah that's the point like you're not supposed to get it um it's just a guy thing and i'd always heard that rich was like um involved with organized crime and then like you know because my last name um people i've kind of taken an interest in and people sometimes will ask me like are you related or whatever Rich asked me a couple years ago, like, would you want to write a book together? And I was like, no, I don't think so.

And then when I did hear him on the Johnny show, like, I had no idea that he was as prolific as he was. I mean, he was smuggled like billions of dollars, I guess. I don't know. But, and so he wanted to be interviewed by somebody, which I thought was a pretty cool idea. I mean, like, you know, instead of just like spewing it all out on paper, He wanted somebody to sort of draw it out of him.

But he must have just had a feeling about me, I guess. But the twist for this book is it's not, so we're writing a book and it's not going to be just like blow, like where it's a story about somebody who makes it big and then, you know, gets arrested or whatever. But we want to have a psychological twist to it. Whereas there's a book that came out about a year ago. It's called Determined. It's by Robert Sapolsky. he's a famous psychologist at um or it's an anthropologist at stanford and he talks about how we humans like to think that we have us like a character that is going to behave in the same way

across situations but he says that situation is so much more of a factor of what we do than we would even like to think and that he says that almost all of our actions as people who are supposedly having free will is really predetermined by our biology and by our hormones and like all kinds of circumstances and stuff. So one of the questions we're asking in this book is could the reader be like rich? Because he started off as a very normal guy. I mean, he was a normal guy for a long time. He had had some abuse when he was a kid, but I mean, a lot of people have.

And then he did get presented with these really, um, serendipitous opportunities and he chose to take that path. So he was living quite a glamorous life for a while there and did some amazing things. And so the reader gets to put themselves in his shoes and live vicariously through him. But also, we're going to be asking the question, like, how much could you or would you have done that? And I like to bring morality into it and ethics and then try to like, I'm going to be giving my notes as the transcript. So it's going to be written as a book. I mean, I'm sorry, the book is going to be written as sort of like an interview, but I'll be giving my notes after every chapter. Like, is rich a narcissist? And then I talk about

what is that actually? Is the sociopath? And what is that? And so people can sort of join along and try to figure out who is this guy and how much do they actually have in common with him. Looking to start 2026 with an unforgettable getaway. Fiji Airways sale is on now. Fly nonstop round trip to Fiji from just 748. Or enjoy a sunny Fiji stopover on your way to Australia with roundtrip fairs starting from 839. As a one world alliance member and American Airlines Advantage program partner, your miles go further across the South Pacific.

Book now at Fiji Airways.com or contact your local travel agent. Conditions apply. So it's going to be called, I'm not like, you, and we are actually looking for a literary agent. So if anybody out there knows a literary agent who would be interested in true crime, we can use your help. Now, on that topic, what do you think is like the psychology behind these men and women who want to come on, because this is a new world where there's these platforms and podcasts where

they talk about crimes and addiction and rock bottom and all of that? What do you think is the psychology behind these individuals that want to come on the show and share their story. And these are people, obviously you have the people that have a book or a movie and they have something to promote. But then I get just, and I think that's why this show is successful

because these are ordinary people that for some reason gravitate towards this, they feel for it by watching an episode and they come and share. Because I would say the majority of our guests don't have something to promote. They just want to share their story.

Yeah, right. So what do you think registers in their mind that they see an episode or whatever and it makes someone to reach out to come on the show and share their story, which is an extremely vulnerable thing to do to sit down with a random stranger and tell them everything. Yeah, right. Well, I mean, society can pretty much handle that now.

I mean, like, let's say 20 years ago, like if you were to do that, everybody would be judging you. And I think people really do appreciate authenticity. And in this day and age where you're just being bombarded with all kinds of people doing all kinds of things, like we're sort of attracted to what is real genuine. And I do believe that another thing is people, I think, use their problems to feel special. And so that's one of the problems I had as a therapist sometimes. I would try to really get some movement out of my people and not be that fucked up person anymore. But they're like, but that's my identity and that's what got me here.

And then I've been through so much and I want to get recognized for all the suffering I've done. And I mean, I have totally been that person myself. But yeah, so they want to, they want to feel special. They want to be seen. I think most people really do want to be seen and accepted. And so in this day and age, if you go on a show like yours and you really bury your soul and it's real and then, you know, people have been, people all have different circumstances, but everybody can relate to pain or loneliness or sorrow or grief or whatever. So I think those are sort of the themes that you have in common. And then you do feel connected.

And then for maybe Rich, he was the man. You know, he got a lot of, like, respect, and he was living the life. And he got a lot of appreciation. A lot of people looked up to him. And then he had to give all that up. But now that he's able to talk about this again, then he gets to be the man. And it is interesting to me how, like, it seems like on podcasts like Johnny's or yours, that you have all these people

who are talking about the crimes that they committed and maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me like RICO has enabled that to happen because now that people flip, then it's become commonplace. Like when we were talking to Rich's DEA handler, he said everybody flips these days. So there's really not much shame in it.

You're not in double jeopardy anymore and you really don't have that much to lose. So might as well tell your story. And then you get that taste again of being the man and talking about how these crazy shit things he did. Yeah. I mean, now you go on podcasts and you see guys that have literally committed multiple murders get immunity because they've ratted out. And now they're out there openly talking about it. And that's something Johnny does very well is getting these guys, these salacious, especially mob stories that come on.

And that's what also makes our platforms very different because I'm more about the psychological. what did that person learn and diving deep into that while still extracting those stories. And, you know, that's why there's a place for both of us in the podcast world. They're very different. And I have my quirkiness and weirdness and uniqueness to me, and that's why it works. And Johnny is a much more dominant male figure, and that's why it works in his sense, too. Yeah. But it's interesting to see all those dynamics and the world that it's changed into.

And it also, what I love the most about it is it takes away the power from the people that say, you know, like if you have a felon, you can't do anything with your life, you can only work this job. Like, this just opens a floodgates where like how could you say that this is in it anymore, you know? There's so much more out there. Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah, you're doing a good thing. Are there other podcasts like this, I wonder? I think like mine, I don't think so. I think specifically like this type of format and what we're doing and just the way it was built.

I think that's why it works, why it took off and became a top podcast. And, you know, we've had people like Chevy Chase on the show, Brandon Novak, individuals that have celebrity to them too. And that kind of like spices it up. But I think mostly when you prioritize the ordinary individuals, it makes a better story because people relate to them. that and they see that. Right. Now, a question I had for you was, so we, we see a lot about on the show, habits, individuals pick up in prison, like sitting to pee or, you know, always having flip-flops on in the shower, stuff that maybe if you spend a couple days in prison, your mind's not going to automatically attract to that. But when you're there for months or years, you end up

leaving with that. Does that feeling and habit ever go away? Is it a possible to, to, to, to, to revert back to a normal life, or will that always be a habit within you that you'll kind of tend to go back to? So, in psychology, they say that whatever neurons fire together, wire together. So, like, if you're doing a certain behavior, then all of those neurons, it's sort of like you're wearing a path through the woods. And you can't just stop. You can't block the path.

So, like, if you have any type of habit or addiction or whatever, um, you're, you're not, you You can't just make it stop. You have to kind of ignore it and then you let the path grow over with weeds again, if that makes sense. So I would think that after time, then, yeah, it just kind of goes away. And it's not something that's conscious at all. You would just find yourself like, oh, shit, I didn't wear flip flops in the shower today. You know, but whatever you focus on, you magnify. So if you're really trying hard to not be.

like you were in prison, you're actually giving energy or you're activating those neurons and you're actually like sort of reinforcing that even by trying not to do it. So yeah, the best you can really hope for, I think, is to just kind of ignore it. Or you could replace it with something else. Like if you were to even like, I mean, well, yeah,

if you were to wear like water shoes in the, some kind of different shoe or something, then that just breaks the pattern and starts a new one, but it helps the old one to wear away. Does that answer your question? And do you think any of those habits kind of tie into the theme of PTSD at all where sometimes you're associating, like you're doing a certain habit in prison because there's a negative outcome that could happen. If you don't do that, like say there's stories where if you don't sit to pee in prison, you're getting jumped by your cellmate because he wants that cell a certain way.

So now you're out in the world and you're constantly sitting. to pee. And in the back of your mind, it's, okay, if I don't do it this way, then I could potentially get hurt. Is that where it links back to PTSD in that sense? 100%. Yeah. So any type of habit is what makes those paths, those neural pathways form is the energy supplies is emotion, either positive or negative. And often it's negative because it's our survival instinct and that's just how we mammals have evolved. So, yeah, if there's something that's threatening to you, especially life-threatening, then there's a lot of emotion there.

That habit is going to be ingrained pretty hard. So, yeah, that's what really, in my opinion, PTSD is conditioning. So, you know, like with Pavlov's dogs and stuff, like he trained them so that they would associate the bell with food. And then even when he took food out of the equation, he'd ring the bell. dogs would start salivating, in my opinion, that's exactly what PTSD is. Anything that is associated with a traumatic situation or even a threatening situation is going to be linked to your fighter flight system. And your fighter flight system, you know, is your heart racing

and your body preparing for fight or flight. But most therapists and scientists and everybody else, what they believe is that what PTSD is, is you're replaying memories, like, as if your brain's a video recorder and you're playing this back and you're telling yourself, oh, I don't want that to happen. So you do, so you react a certain way. I say that that's property of the robot and that the robot has nothing to do with PTSD. And one example that I give people is that my cat, he'll go outside. No problem, but he doesn't come inside.

He just hesitates. And I'm waiting there for 30 seconds, like, while he's freaking smelling the door. And I'm like, something must have happened to him that he now associates coming into the house as sort of dangerous. And he's absolutely not replaying any movies. And he's not thinking to himself, oh, coming into the house is dangerous. It's a simple amount of conditioning. And the reason why I try to hammer down this point is because, I want people to let go of the fantasy that you can just change your mind and change your

associations. You can't do that. So, like, people can tell you all day long. You're not in prison anymore. You can remind yourself all day long. I'm not in prison anymore. And then, oh, shit, I'm sitting it down again to pee. Like, before you even know it, it's, it, your thoughts have nothing to do with any of this stuff, in my opinion. Yeah, I know, like, something I've noticed with me is there's two specific scenarios. One, when someone refers to my last name, um, like if I'm in the doctor's office or I'm at the gym and someone's like, hey, Bick or whatever, my mind automatically triggers to two things. One, my prison ID number because they'll ask you for like your prison ID number and I have that

memorized by heart because you say it so many times when you're in prison. And two, just like that's your name in prison is your last name. So I'm automatically feeling like I'm getting put into that setting. And when I have that feeling, it's not necessarily a negative thing. It's not like a nervousness. I don't feel like scared. Um, that's just kind of like, it's just a thought's going to prison. But then the second thing that happens to me is when I'm in the same room as like a cop or pulled over or lights come on behind me, that's when I feel the physical aspects of that PTSD and the past because then my body starts shaking.

And then I feel a pit in my stomach and I feel very nervous. And I'm not doing anything wrong. Great. It's just every time I pass a cop, every like that's, that hasn't gone away since ever. Every time there's a knock at the door, it automatically brings me back to the day when, you know, at 5 in the morning and there's a knock on your door. I'll be at my parents' house walking my dog and the postman or the UPS will knock on the door. And I'm just thinking it's someone, you know, here to arrest me or whatever from back in the day. Right.

It just, that has never gone away. And I don't know if that'll ever go away. Yeah. I think it might diminish a little bit. for some people it does. Time heals all wounds. No, that's not true. Time heals some wounds sometimes.

And what really sucks, I mean, so I do talk to a lot of people who have PTSD from law enforcement and a lot of people of color as well. And so what really sucks is when you're triggered, so yeah, your fighter flight system is activating and your logical brain, your robot is designed to go offline. So that's the point I hadn't really made. Like, you're supposed to be in fight or flight. You are not supposed to be thinking. Like, throughout evolution, if you were in a crisis, you're not supposed to be weighing the pros and cons of all of your options. You're supposed to be acting.

Like, if you see a bear in the woods, you're fighting it or running away. I would be fighting it because of six a badass. Before you know that there's a bear there. Like, what I'm saying is before you consciously know that. So what sucks is that. If you get pulled over by a cop, then your logical brain, your robot goes offline. That's also the part that talks. That's the part that analyzes.

And so, like, for me, I clam up. I don't know what's saying. And I act like an idiot or maybe look guilty. Or even if I'm driving past a cop and I wonder if he's going to pull me over, I'm not going to be driving as well. Yeah. Because I'm. And that's a great point.

So when you get pulled over and you're nervous, like myself, the cops can automatically think you're guilty of something. And the only thing you're guilty of is being nervous that you're going to assume that they think you're guilty. And that can cause such a, it can escalate the situation tremendously. Yeah. And we see that in America. You don't know what some of these law enforcement issues that have happened have been triggered just because someone was nervous in their presence. And then it goes to the question, well, how do you fix this? How do you make this, you know, not nervous?

because I guarantee you if I was pulled over, my face is probably all red, redder than it normally is. Yeah, yeah. I'm, like, I clam up because I'm scared. I'm genuinely scared. I'm in fear of my life at that point. And I'm not going to do any. I know I won't do anything outrageous, but I'm just going to act weird and I'm going to come off as guilty. Yes.

And they're going to, if you have the wrong police officer that day, that could go very badly. Yeah, totally. Well, so there is a way to fix it. I mean, like, my therapy, de-adrenalizing is a way to unpaire those stimuli. Like, the condition responses that you've acquired, this kind of reconditions you to something else. So what I would do is I would have you remember certain times that you've interacted with law enforcement or especially maybe that time that they raided your house. Does that what happened? Yeah.

So, and then what you do is you imagine it happening as your eyes are moving. You don't have to talk about it. And then you rewrite the story in your head so that something else happened. And then for whatever reason, it just really works. Like, you don't have that association anymore. So that's amazing. But, you know, police officers themselves also have their own condition responses. And I don't know if this is going to be controversial, but racism starts as a condition response.

It's something that is beyond your control. Now, that doesn't mean you're not accountable. I mean, if a cop has a lot of interactions with a certain group of people and they're negative, then he or he or she is going to have a certain bias that is absolutely not by his creation and not voluntary. It's just automatic there. And then, you know, when you get into a situation where, like, they're in danger, then that's where your logical brain is offline. Like I said, so that part of you is not there to remind you, oh, don't be racist.

And it's all fight or flight, and that's why oftentimes people get shot for racist reasons. But I'm saying that that's not necessarily a choice on the part of the person who is racist and is still needs to be accountable for their actions. But I was trying to create a program for law enforcement where they do my type of therapy and then it helps to sort of reset, recalibrate, you know. Yeah, that's what I was just thinking, that there should be some type of additional training where every couple of. months, maybe there's a check-in or if you've had this many instances, like situations, there's some type of de-escalation where you're working through it just to get your mind back on track. So you're not being biased to someone.

You're not thinking that, oh, because this happened with one person, the rest of this population is like that. Absolutely. Yeah, totally. I wish we could do that. And, like, I came up with a term being adrenalized. So that's anybody who has a career that demands a certain amount of adrenaline. So that's correction officers, police, fire, medical workers, people where veterans, of course.

And the reason I want to call it being adrenalineized is because I think it captures better what's actually happening there. But also, we don't want to be calling everybody as having PTSD. It's such a dirty word for so many people, you know. So if we could have a program where it's like, you know, let's address this adrenalineized issue. I mean, when I talk to firefighters, for example, none of them can sleep. They all want to drink or they quit drinking. The rates of suicide, addiction, divorce, domestic violence are through the roof. And you ask them, why do you think that is?

They never have any idea. And then they just live with it. Well, it's because they have tons of adrenaline. They're always in fight or flight. And so that's one of the things that cannabis does, I think, is it just dials down your nervous system better than any of the pharmaceuticals do. But if we could really, as a society, look at that in those terms, I think we all be so much better off. You know, yeah, I did have this one client who was an air marshal. So that's the only time I met somebody who didn't see and experience horrible stuff all the time.

Like any cop or any firefighter or any EMT, you could say they're adrenalineized because of the horrible stuff they've experienced or witnessed. But with the air marshal, he had to be super hypervigilant the whole time to watch everybody on the plane. And he still had the same exact symptoms as somebody who was a first responder who did experience all that horrible stuff. Wow, that was probably a great conversation. I'd love to have an air marshal on the show. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. Yeah, I love those movies with the air marshals, like with,

Liam Neeson and those types of shows. Those are always really good ones. Yeah, right now? Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you've had a lot of interesting conversations with law enforcement and seeing things through their eyes as much as you've had with inmates and people from a, I mean, you've experienced people from all walks of life, really. You know, I wish I did have more with law enforcement.

They don't seem to come for medical marijuana. Well, even, so you've only done medical marijuana stuff your whole career? Oh, no, no. I started that in 2015, but I've been a therapist. I've been in the mental health field since 1993. So, yeah, I have talked to a lot of people from all walks of life. But I guess not too many law enforcement in proportion to the rest of society. So, yeah, I think, like, one time I did a paper in grad school because I was a pothead.

And I was like, who are these cops who just? rest people and ruin everybody's day. Like, what kind of person does that, you know? So I looked into the psychological testing that goes into being in law enforcement. They spike high for aggression, rigidity, and authoritarianism. And it turns out that if you have somebody who doesn't have those statistics, they don't do well as a police officer and they don't do their job. And so I realized, like, I would be the worst police officer ever. And, And I don't like them because my personality is not similar to theirs. But overall, I think they do a fantastic job.

And I'm glad that, you know, they do that, not me. Yeah. Was this your first career choice or did you have something planned before, like when you were in high school? Or you knew you wanted to be a psychologist or in the mental health field? No, I had no idea. I got it to college and I was going to be business and then I was going to be, I was pre-law, which neither of those would suit me at all. And then one, it was in the summer.

time. I was at my parents' house and I was sitting on the toilet and I was thinking like, what if I was a psychologist? And I had always thought, no, I'm not going to do that because that's touchy feeling. And I'm a guy. But then I realized like, no, it doesn't have to be that way. And what I love about the job, Ian, is that it's an intellectual exercise. So like, you know, if I get a new client for therapy, for example, I'm not thinking like, oh, I'm going to save this guy because I'm just a good person and I want to help. I'm like, I'm like, like, oh, what set of problems is this? And how can I unravel it?

And how can I understand it? So it's really fascinating to me. And yeah, so halfway through college, I was lucky enough to get that inspiration. And it's, I do feel for the people who don't quite know what they want to do. And everybody's still asking you all the time, oh, what are you going to do for the rest of your life? You have no idea. Well, because there's so much pressure. Yeah.

I mean, people are asking you that in high school or they think career choices. And then you have all these crazy exams and tests and things that are preparing you for everything. where if you just focus on the things that you like and stuff, I think it should be whittled down a little bit more. Like, who needs algebra and this stuff? If you're not going in that direction, I feel like life's too short to be wasting your energy on that aspect of it. I couldn't be more.

I couldn't even use. Yeah, I wish school was a lot more practical, starting at the earliest stages. And then college, too. Yeah, it's still so abstracted, everything. Like, the worst grade I got in college was intradict. to psychology. I got a C plus. It really was just a whole bunch of fancy terms

for stuff that I already knew. It wasn't interesting at all. And then when I went to I started Wesleyan, but I transferred to Yukon and they had a program that was like really practical psychology. And you really learn about society and how does your brain actually work instead of research and all these

rats running around in mazes and stuff like that. That was so much more interesting to me. I took intro to psych in high school and I thought that class was very well done with our teacher because she was very old school, and it was a lot of movie watching. Like, we watched Rain Man. We watched the butterfly effect, and that stimulates your mind to think.

Yeah. Whereas other classes were tests and quizzes and essays and papers, and I'm sure intro to psych wasn't meant to just be a movie watching class in their eyes, but that's what it was for us. And I thought that was great. And, like, I would make fun of going to reading class and looking back on it now, I think reading class was the best thing because that causes your mind to think and you're thinking fantasy. Like I read a lot of Harry Potter books in prison.

That stimulated my mind because it has like that visual effect because of the way it's written and whatnot. If I spent more time reading in school and doing things like that rather than spending time on the bookwork, I think it would have worked out even better too. Totally. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. It's so much teaching to the test. I mean, I see why they try to do that. but it has to be engaging to people.

What advice would you give to someone that is struggling, you know, mentally coming out of prison, coming out of addiction? What kind of guidance would you give them? Because that's what a lot of the listeners are on a show. And even, not even just those individuals, but the parents of these individuals who are looking for answers on how they can help their loved one. Yeah. That's such a good question. The first thing I want to tell people is you're not crazy and not as crazy as you feel like you are. I mean, if your whole nervous system has changed as a result of being institutionalized and now you're free and you don't feel comfortable, even around your own family, that is really quite normal.

It might take some time or whatever. I do have so many thousands of people tell me that cannabis has helped them and they'd be dead without it. So, I mean, that's an option. I will also say that I used to ask everybody, do the pharmaceuticals actually help? your PTSD and you would think that a certain percentage of people would have said yes, but 0.0% of people ever said that. So, I mean, I'm not saying don't take pharmaceuticals, but if you see a doctor and they are trying to give you something for your PTSD, I don't think that's a good way to go. I think doctors are good people and they want to help, but when you

have a hammer in your hand, everything looks like a nail. So when people, so people, loved ones, they're going to want to do something. Like they don't want to just like try to passively wade it out with the offender who gets out and try to, like, they want to do something. You need therapy. You need meds. And I don't blame anybody for saying that or feeling that way. But don't expect those things to work. I mean, that sounds pretty cynical.

But a lot of times people don't go to therapy because they know they're going to have to relive the worst stuff again. and again and again, and it's going to make them feel even worse. And then, I mean, and if you have a good therapist who you have a really good connection with and they don't push you too hard in that way, and you can really connect with them and they get you to, like, you sound like you got a great therapist. That's good. But so many therapists, unfortunately, fall prey to those mistakes. And then, like, if you're a loved one, yeah, really just try to empathize but not

solve the problem. So like if somebody keep saying like I'm so uncomfortable, I don't feel good or whatever. And you don't try to give them advice. I mean like if like some being people, well-meaning people have given me such simplistic, stupid advice over the years. And it really I think kind of ends up doing a little bit of harm because, you know, here I am as somebody who feels shitty. And when you have PTSD, you feel bad. You don't feel good. And there's an 80% correlation between PTSD and addiction.

I think it's even higher. But the biggest reason in my mind is because it's a break from feeling shitty. And so, what was I going to say? If I'm going to somebody to just to relate to them and say, like, you know, this is what I'm going through. And you're looking to connect with that. person if they say something like, well, just keep telling yourself you're not in jail or just look at the bright side or count your blessings or do what I do. I go for a run. Like I'm going to go, yeah, I can go for a run. I'm still going to be fucking feeling horrible and I'm just going to be

tired too. So don't just tell them to do what you do because you're going to be alienating them even more than when they started. And then why would they want to come talk to you again so that they could feel more crazy and more, you know, apart from the world or the family. Yeah, exactly. Don't try to do too much. Well, David, thank you so much for coming on the show today. Incredible, wonderful conversation. I'm glad we finally got to connect and talk.

And, you know, best of luck with the book with Rich. And we'll put the description to your book that you have out already that's available, right? I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. And then if anybody wants to find me, just look up PTSD doctor in Connecticut, and I'm number one, so I'll come up first. Oh, that's great. Yeah, yeah.

That's a good SEO right there. Yeah, right. Yeah, and I love, I'm a big advocate for, you know, marijuana, edibles. I use the Tyson bites to help me sleep and whatnot. I got to meet Mike Tyson a couple times. I love his stuff. Yeah. Great guy.

Yeah, I was talking to Rich this morning, and I had gone on your Instagram and saw you with Mike Tyson. I was thinking, oh, man, what if I was on his? his podcast, but he just stopped, he stopped doing that, right? I guess, like, his final episode was April 3rd, as far as I could tell. Oh, that's what they said, a final. They were doing a final. I know he's busy with training and whatnot. Oh, that's true.

Yeah, but he's a good guy, and I love the mic bites. They're shaped like an ear. Oh, my God. Yeah, they're literally shaped. I got a hoodie that I wear a lot, too, that's got the ear, the half bit and ear on it. That's hysterical. Yeah, definitely check those out. Well, it's really been a pleasure to be on your show, Ian.

And I mean, anytime we ever want to have me back, I like to... Oh, of course. We'll definitely have to have you back, you know. Every few months we could have you back. I love talking to the professionals. It's a different, something different, you know? Yeah, right. Different perspective gets my mind going.

Yeah, all right. But, yeah, safe travels back today and keep a touch. Thanks. And if anybody knows the literary agent, please call us.