Locked In with Ian Bick - Redneck Walter White Kingpin Turned Pastor | Mikkle Hampton

Episode Date: August 31, 2023

Mikkle Hampton grew up in Kentucky and experimented with substances at a young age before various illegal activities and manufacturing landed him in prison. After prison Mikkle dedicated his life to helping those in recovery with the support they need by starting Lake Cumberland Recovery. Connect with Mikkle Hampton: https://www.lcrecovery.com/ Connect with Ian Bick:  https://www.ianbick.com/ 00:00 Intro  01:24 Childhood 05:44 Young Entrepreneur  11:05 Train-wreck  12:52 Christian School to Illegal Activities  15:40 Redneck Walter White  23:27 Arrested for Drug Test  29:34 Prison Hustle and Smuggling in Jail 32:55 Prison Sentencing in Kentucky  34:04 Life After Prison and as a Pastor  41:08 Difficulties he faces now  Subscribe to our membership program on YouTube to get early access to interviews, see behind the scenes photos, live chat with Ian & more: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCRvVklIft6DMelVW18M0oBw/join Powered by Q29 Productions, LLC Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Real California. Welcome back to the Locked In with Ian Bick podcast. You guys can listen to this podcast on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from. On today's episode, I have Michael Hampton, who just happens to be Andrew Hager's boss, coming on the show to talk about his time, struggling with addiction, landing himself in prison, and then getting out, turning his life around, and opening up a huge enterprise of recovery house. houses. Thank you guys for tuning into the show. Thank you guys for the love, the support you give week after week, all the emails, the Instagram messages, the Facebook messages, the YouTube

comments. It means so, so much to me, and we would not be here without you guys. You have consistently landed us in the top 200 podcasts in the world for society and culture, and it's just, who would have thought it would gotten here this quickly? If you guys are listening to this on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast from, please leave us a review. It really helps get the show out there to more people. And if you're watching this episode on YouTube, like, comment, subscribe, and share. It does us wonders. Thank you guys again. Sit back, relax, and enjoy my interview with Michael Hampton. Michael, welcome to the show. You know, I got to be honest with you for the first like three weeks after Andrew Hager introduced us, I was calling you Mickle, because of the

way your name's spelled. Yeah, most people do you anyway. Why is it spelled that way? Was it? I don't know. Mom just had a creative ideal. So I cursed all my kids with the same Michael or Malachi or McKinsey or Michaela's all with two K's. Yeah. Just I guess a family tradition. It's so unique. And then when Andrew finally said, hey, my boss is Michael. Because like, you know how Andrew talks sometimes? It's kind of says it very fast. So I thought it was Mickle. But then he finally said it's Michael. I was like, oh, okay. He really about sent me into relapse. second ago he said two Ks because at one time when I was kind of in the game, they called me two K's. That was your name? Yeah, that's what you just called me.

Is this a conspiracy? Awesome. So let's start at the beginning, man. Where are you from? Where did you grow up? What's like the early Michael or Mickle days like for you? Just kind of a normal childhood for the most part. You know, I'd honestly say. Kind of nothing crazy. Mom kept foster kids. Had a big family. I would actually. I could She just had one brother and sister, but we kept a lot of foster kids coming in and out of the house. Mom and dad, you know, divorced a couple of times while we were growing up. I don't know if that's normal or not normal. I guess it kind of is these days.

Kind of just a normal childhood had good grandparents. I really can't. A lot of stories with addiction, you know, started out with a really terrible childhood. Mine didn't. I actually had a great childhood. A lot of good memories, good grandparents. So I guess everything was pretty good until I started, you know, getting, you know, wild about the age of 15 or 16-year-old, you know, smoking weed behind the, behind the

house or shed or whatever it was down in Kentucky. But for the most part, it was a pretty good childhood. What did your parents do for work? Mom just kind of kept to your kids and then my dad worked construction. I've got a hammer in my hand since I was at the age about five. So is that like a well-paying job? Bonjour, compadre. It's the Price-line negotiator. How do I negotiate so many great travel deals? My greatest gadget. The Priceline app. It's got hotel deals, flight deals, rental car deals, all of those deals in a bundle, deals, game day deals, concert trip deals. No one deals more deals than Price Line. Hold your horses. There's more. The app let you filter hotels by neighborhood, vibe, star level, and amenities like pools and spas and beach fronts. Wait, I'm not done. Stop cutting me off. Exema is unpredictable, but you can flare less with ebbglis. A once-monthly treatment for moderate-t to disappear eczema.

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Eye problems can occur. Tell your doctor if you have new or worsening eye problems. You should not receive a live vaccine when treated with Ebbglis. Before starting Ebbglis, tell your doctor if you have a parasitic infection. Ask your doctor about Ebbglis. And visit Ebbglis.com or call 1800 LilyRX or 1-800 545-979. For them that they were able to foster other kids and provide for other kids? Yeah, yeah.

My dad, yeah, pretty much. but you also get paid from the state to keep kids. So we adopted a few over the years and stuff, but that's kind of what we did. Were you close with the foster kids at all that were adopted? Oh, yeah, I come pretty close. You consider them like siblings? Yeah, for some, for the most part, I guess.

You know, we have still in contact with a couple. It's just nothing. I don't know, you kind of fall apart over years. You know, after 22 years addiction, you kind of lose connection with everybody. Yeah, that's true. You know, especially if they're not direct family that's there to help support you and pick you up

and tell you they love you. unconditional, you know, so. Yeah, what kind of kid were you? Like, are you a trouble getting into trouble type kid, or are you like a cool rule follower, chill? No, I was never really the rule follower. I mean, Hopper, kind of ADHD, never really that good in school. I've done really good because my mom done most of my work. You know, I can't read or write like most kids can, but I'm really, you know, took me twice to

get to second grade, you know, it was just, I never really, I was never the, I was actually a straight A student, but not because I deserved it. Because I guess my mom done half of my homework. My mom used to do my homework all the time. Yes. The only thing I could do good is really, you know, when it comes to numbers, I'm coming in the numbers guy. Okay.

I think my whole life started when I got a set of triple beams at the age of 16 in front of me at a dope dealer's house. And he's like, hey, can you weigh out pot? And I'm like, I can do it. And so all of a sudden I started learning what triple beams were at three and a half, seven, 14, 28. Yeah. I just learned what, you know, grams was.

And I became fascinated from then on. Isn't it kind of crazy that like the real life experience sometimes teaches us what school is meant to teach us, but we can't learn it in the school setting? We have to learn it in the real world setting. Yeah, definitely so. I think so. Imagine if they did it reverse. Like they applied what you could actually use it for in the real world to teach someone, maybe not like weighing pounds of marijuana or anything. But in general, I think it would definitely help with the school system.

Oh, definitely so. I mean, the way to build credit, the way to, I mean, take people's strengths instead of the weaknesses and just. Instead of just picking on their weaknesses, use their strengths to see them succeed and do better, instead of kind of getting picked on because you can't read and you can't read out loud. And you can't, that wasn't me. I couldn't do it. It kind of held me back a lot. Did you have a plan, like, in high school, in the early days of high school, for what you wanted to do when you grew older?

Or were you kind of just going with the motion and the flow? Well, I had a lot of drive. I mean, at the age of 13, I ran a fruit stand on the side of the road. A fruit stand. Yeah, so at the age of 13, I also worked in a restaurant. At the age of 15, I took a full-time job at a restaurant. Actually, it became a waiter in a restaurant. So I just always worked.

Like, working is my thing, you know, picking up a hammer, framing houses, just doing. I was kind of have a lot of ambitions and everything I do, I kind of go full at it. Did that make you feel like very different from most kids, maybe like an outcast or anything? Oh, yeah, definitely. I would go to parties and stuff, and I'll never forget it. Like, I would be there sweeping up. instead of like working with rest of the kids. We were just playing with the rest of kids.

My mind was not like theirs. You know, it was, I was interested in how, how can I make money of these kids? You know, like, you're literally describing my mindset in high school too,

because I was a kid that I was always cleaning and taking care everyone at the parties. Going to the swap meets and buying a scooter and then flipping it for more money and just, it's kind of always hustling, just always work. Now, eventually you come into drug use in high school,

like starting out with weed, I guess. Yeah, It started, you know, out early. Anything I do, I do full blast. So at the age of, you know, 16, you know, I'm driving. I'm, you know, want to be the cool kid, you know, because I want to fit in, kind of the outcast a little bit. But at the same time, I had a driver's life.

And so I'm instantly cool, right? So I got introduced to pot really quick and they just kind of took off from there, you know, weighing out pot, getting pounds of pot at the age of 16. You know, I live in Kentucky. And, like, Macquarie County, Kentucky is the county. the poorest in the whole United States. And I live there. So, I mean, I live right beside it. So I just started hustling at a very young age, you know,

from my best friend's dad being a pharmacist, and we cleaning it out and going in the pharmacy and, you know, getting dazepam and laser cuts and getting tallyluxes and, you know, just getting pills. So it just started a life of, I guess, being accepted by others, but also kind of fit my work ethic, you know, hustling and making money and all that. So were you motivated by the drug use or by selling the drugs to make money? I was kind of both. I was kind of, I like to feed my habit, and I was a little different. I mean, I had a big habit to feed, so I'd always, everything I do, I'd do full blast. So, you know, from gambling to, you know, cooking dope to selling dope or this, whatever it is, to now drug rehabs. I'm full blast at it, you know, so. Were you like a functionalable drug dealer, even though you were using? Because some can't understand the business aspect of it, too, but you were business-minded at that age. Yeah, it took me 22 years.

years to finally get caught up, but I was, I wouldn't say functional. It never gets better. It only gets worse. But for the first few years of my life, for the first 10 years of my life, it was, I wouldn't say manageable, but I was doing it. I definitely, I'll never forget, and I was driving down the road. And I was just thinking the other day, I actually, I never built with big, like, trying to sound like something I'm not. But I was, you know, at that time, I had a bail of weed, a 22-pound bell, and, you know, it was in my truck, and I was going down the road to a job site, because I worked my dad and my brother at the time, and I flashed past my dad on the side road,

and he's like, what are you doing, son? I know you got something on you. My dad's straight-laced, right? And he knows, and I pull out a garbage bag, and I show him a bail weed. You know, it was probably like seven or eight pounds pulled off a bell, but it's, you know, that's just kind of, that was normal for me at that time at the age,

at 21, it just kind of took off. Are your parents trying to, like, talk you out of this lifestyle, sitting you down? Like, they seem like good people, good parents, good family. My mom was kind of naive in the whole idea. and my dad just, I don't think they ever knew the extent of everything. I wore a pretty good mask.

You know, I would still kind of show up to work for the most part until you can't no more. You know, there for years, you know, I helped run a business. I help run a framing crew. Then it just slowly, you just slowly get worse and worse and worse. How do you think your friends would describe you during this time period? I think most in this time period, they would think I would probably definitely end up in prison. I'd definitely be the one that never made amount to anything. I think people still was at shock for the most part, you know, that I've been out of prison for nine years,

but people just don't believe still. There's like, what's he really up to? You're like, that kind of behavior, like people just don't get it, you know, how completely change my life and flip the script. It's hard, like, once you get labeled, you know, as that person. Like, I still have people calling me, like, I'll post something, and then the people will comment that don't, even know me, they're like, oh, he's a scammer or this and that. Like, you just,

that people are, they're stupid in that sense. Yeah, and they don't understand. Like, I get high by doing the right thing today. So it gives me that, like, I used to get high by, you know, doing not really the wrong thing or hustling and selling, but it actually, it really thrills me to know that I'm not doing anything shady. And that's what keeps me going, you know, to have people in your life that hold you accountable and have business partners in your life like, they look at you and like, you're the best best best partner I ever had. I actually honestly trust you. I don't trust anybody, but I trust you because that's the image and that's what gives me more drive to do the right thing. Because I was at points in my life where I'd steal from my own father.

You know, I mean, I would, I was the worst of the worst in my eyes. And you're the guy that went to prison and that they're trusting the most too. So it's good that that you, they have that mindset of you now. I mean, it shows the growth. So do you go to college or do you skip college? Yeah, I don't, I don't even graduate high school. Actually, I went to Florida on September 2nd, 9th. 1993, got shot on October 2nd with the 357 in the stomach. Because of drugs? It was a kind of a, well, I would say a drug deal went bad, hanging out with the wrong people, wrong crowd, had a gun,

asked me if I ever played Russian a lad, and I mosaic words like, hey man, put that fucking gun away, don't want anything to do with that. And he shot me straight to the stomach. Came back to Kentucky, scared kid, you know, got involved in Christian school for a little bit. So I've always, you know, done the Christian card or played a Christian card for the best of my ability.

You've got to church hurt more than anyone in the world, probably. I would still, it was crazy because I came back. I was, you know, trying to do good. My grandma bought me a vehicle. The only thing I've ever had bought for me a whole entire life. She bought me, I'll never forget, 87 grandam. And she said, you start hanging out with those kids again, and God's going to take it from you. And sure enough, I get drunk and put it on the railroad tracks and watch a train hit it. You watch a train hit your car? Yeah, I was intoxicated. And I was going to cruise over the hill, a mountain, you know, you got mountains around here, and we was going to cruised over the mountain and go to towns and smoke a joint.

So the train actually hits the car? Yeah, yeah, the train hits it. I wasn't in it. I went around the curve and, you know. Yeah, you parked it. No, I jumped into the tracks because I was just not paying attention and went around the curve. Oh, wow. So busted all the tires and getting into wheels and get out and like, hey, come help me.

And then guys like, get the guy over the hill. So I take off running over the hill and ding, ding, ding, ding. And I'll watch a car cream or a train cream my car. Yeah, this is a lot of crazy stuff. Yeah, so right after this, like when you're in Florida, is that where you start, like, the actual drug business, like carrying it out even more? No, so like I said, I went to Christian school for just a little while and I came back here. Kind of started the same thing I always did in the summer. I started hanging out with the guys again.

I started wanting to really kind of be accepted amongst my friends that I really believe they were friends, but we were all just kind of in the madness together. And I started hanging around them and never really come out of it, you know, until 22 years later. Why do you think you wanted to be accepted by these groups of people? I think a lot of us fear acceptance, so we want to be accepted. Like we walk in the room and want people to like us, so therefore we go along with the crowd. We're allowed peer pressure to pressure us because you want to be accepted. You want people to like you.

So we walk into the room and wanted to be accepted. And that's my story all through even going to jail. Like I wanted to be accepted in jail, even though I wanted to straighten up. June 26, 2012 is my clean date. but even though I went to jail and I sold the box in and I sew meth and took care of all the tobacco in the jails. That's all I'd ever known was to hustle. And so I'd done it for so many years. And I'd only done it because people were like, man, we know you got the plug.

You can do it. You can do it. And I'm like, no, I'm not about that life no more. And every time I would give in and break week and, you know, get stuff brought in. And I didn't want to. It was just something I was so embedded in me for just doing the wrong thing for so many years. So when you get back and you're hanging out with these individuals, what types of, of business are you starting like with the drugs the gambling what's your entire operation so I

mean it's escalated over the years you know I ran a framing crew my dad and my brother and then you know eventually it never gets better only gets worse we end up buying a gas station together me and my brother kind of ran it in the ground we didn't run it in my ground but actually my dad took it and while we ran the construction company kind of in the ground we just we just not not able to work once you get so far in your addiction and you know had poe in the back of the gas station. And we also had, I opened a poker room up and also had, you know, I owned a poker room and also on the game room where we just play poker machines and that kind of life.

So it was just a world of craziness, you know, like it's hard to. What are the ends and outs of like running a poker table and a poker game off the books, like not legal in that sense? You can break the pot, you know what I mean? You can keep people in. You know, like you can, you know, you drag the pot for. forever, everhand you play. And so you bank money there. And then they got their spouses with them that don't play poker and they're in the back, playing the machines. And they're feeding them,

you know, anything that can back in a corner take on the world you're going to make money from. And it was, it was really just a crazy life. You know, I mean, I would cook dope to sell dope to to gamble, to lose it all, to start back over again. You were cooking dope. You had like a meth lab? Yeah, I actually, my charges is trafficking in methamphetamines was my last charge. But complicit in manufacture was was my deal. I sold meth for 16 years in my life. The last five years, six years, I think I got introduced to cooking meth. That's when life really took a turn. You know, I was always, I had a daughter, and, you know, she was seven when I went to prison, but I always wanted to be that good father. But my best thinking as an addict was cooking dope and blowing

dope, if anybody knows anything about cooking dope. You know, I actually done the actually whole cookup. I didn't do the shake and bake what they done the last few years. You know, It's been 13, 14 years since I cooked any dope, I guess more like 12 years. But I would sit on the outside of the house. You know, my house was condemned for cooking meth in it, even though I never cooked dope in it. But I would, my best thinking as a father was on the other side of the wall, I'd be blowing gas outside with my seven-year-old daughter sleeping on the other wall. That's just where my addiction finally got to. It's the craziest thing ever in insanity, thinking that you can mix them on your at trait and lie.

together in a five gallon in a in a in a gas jug use a cadencer make your own and your hydrant gas and and that's okay with your daughter on the other side of the wall you know like I wanted to be a good father you know how hard is it to cook meth is it like breaking bad like what are the similarities and differences well so there's different stages you know that was kind of a hiring I would guess you would say done in bigger real laboratories we were just kind of rednecks and just doing her doing our own thing, you know, you know, you take Sudafed and, you know, you crush them down and, you know, you get your batteries and your ether and you get your pitcher readies. And that's why I'd always blow gas, so I would take them on your nitrate a lot and blow gas. And I'd only do about 10 box cooks,

you know, I wasn't the Walter White. You know, like, I wish I could brag at that, you know, but I was never like that scale or I don't think it would be much of a brag. But, you know, like I would never, I was never at that league, but I was a lot different than just someone doing a little shake and bake, like a one box cook or something. Why is cooking that's so dangerous? Like you hear about in the TV shows when they do the raids and stuff, it's always like a big ordeal if it's a known meth lab. Why is that? I think it's just the chemicals. And, you know, like I really never did it in the house. I did strain off dope in the house. You know, after you cook it and you mix it together, just the toxins that they put off is very unhealthy for you. Okay.

And what does one cook net you? Like profit? What's a breakdown? You do this cook? You do this cook? how much do you gross nothing? Nothing. I mean... So why do it? We wouldn't say because if I wasn't actually using yes. Because I used so much, I would sell so much

and I'd gamble so much. I just never, it was like a vicious cycle. I'd cook dope to have enough money to go to the game room and not, just to gamble it all the way, to wake up in the morning broke with about an hour of sleep, two hours of sleep, try to go to work and try to pull it off.

And it was just a cycle over and over and over for years. in my life. There was nearly no money in that. Now the money was in the game room. There was definitely crazy money in that. That was definitely I actually gave it up the day I got out of prison. You were still running the game rooms while you were in?

So I was only locked up for 24 months, Class D killer, state time. I was doing 24 months. I got an eight-year sentence. Day I got out, I'll never forget. My dad pulled up in the car. I walked down the treatment because I had to do six-month sap program in the state. And they were like, And dad walks in, or I walk down, and he's like, what are you going to do at your game room? I said, I don't know what I'm going to do, Dad, but I'm not going to serve two masters.

I said, I'm going to do something different in my life, and I'm going to do whatever it takes. And I try to talk to him while I was in prison, but every time I would mention it to him, he was like, we'll talk about that when you get home. We'll talk about that when you get home because it was totally my business, but he was managing my money while I was locked up. He was paying my child support. He was paying my house payment. He was paying with anything I needed. I was living pretty large in there and all the fun. time calling my daughter, calling whoever I want, because I had money coming in, had as much

money as I wanted coming in, whatever I told them to send me, sent me. So it was, and then I had drugs coming in on top of that. So it was just, it was endless money cycle, really. So it's kind of one them things. Like you just... Now, when you were doing meth, did you have like the skin, you know, lesions or that the messed up skin from the meth when you were using it? I didn't, so it was, you know, it was like 12, 13 years ago. I was a smoker. I smoked and smoked and smoked. I smoked my brains out, snore, do hot rails and stuff. So it was really never, I was never really started shooting. So the shooting causes those. I just, I think the cleanness of the dope, I was really kind of picky on all that. And I kind of maintained because I was not really functional, but I just never

really completely just bawled completely out, I guess you would say. I don't really know how I kept together. I mean, I would, I was, I burnt myself up twice. I'm still scarred from here. and my tats up here covers them. And, you know, I actually, I'll never forget, I was cooking a batch outside the house and came back in and I was draining my bucket off. And I'm up in the attic. And all of a sudden, I didn't ether the filter and all that sounds crazy. But then all of a sudden, bam, I pour the pitcher off, the lithium hits it,

and it shoots a flaming fire up. And actually, when I go down the steps and there was a fire signature there where we stole it from ripping out copper out of a factory. I mean, we were just crazy insanity of things that we'd done. And I would run up there and put out the fire and then come out and just sitting. I just remember sitting in the shower like waiting for the cops to get there and the cops never showed up. My skin melting off, you know, and my best thinking was just covered up and keep going on. You know, what am I going to do to get the next batch?

Did you have any close like overdose experiences for you yourself as a user? No, not. I was just really stuck to the meth. That was really. Is meth dangerous to use in that sense? Yeah, yeah, it definitely is. I think now with the fentanyl and just the craziness, and, you know, it was, I hate to say it was better back then

because that's almost like six. Different times, different times. Different times, yeah, it was just as sick, but it's just, yeah. I maintained for 16 years, you know, I don't know how. I just kept showing up. What was the most, like, craziest thing you've experienced as, like, a drug dealer, this meth cooker?

What happened? And, I mean, was there any, like, robberies, anything wild? I mean, that was just, it was constant stuff like that. You know, like it's been, you know, 11 years and your mind's blocked out. I remember cooking at an official in his house in Kentucky, and I'll never forget because I was in drug court. I was already on, publicity to cook manufacturer, cook methamphetamines. I was already charged for the five years for that, and I had to go to drug court. I'll never forget. The closest call I had after that, I guess I was in the barn and we were straining the dope off. And all of a sudden, here comes a dude up in the tractor and he's actually a county cop and I was on a big farm and I just remember looking at it. I mean there's bags hanging in there, you know, in like getting ready to smoke it off, smoke rolling out, you know, and kind of got away with that, you know, but there's just time after time of just crazy stories. Life was not manageable at all. It's almost like a block now because it's been a few years but then I'll start talking sometimes. I remember my wife really gets a

kick out of it. She's, because she's, she's never known me to be an addict. So I'll tell her these stories and she was like, well, you quit talking about my husband? Like, I don't know that man, you know, so over the years I've kind of numb myself of a lot of things, but just toxic behavior, toxic relationships. Yeah, we tend to shut out all those things until we start like talking about them and really, and then you're like, oh, I remember when that happened. Yeah. So when do you finally get, like, caught? Do you get like, is there like a big drug raid? Is there a big arrest? What goes down? Actually, it was, it wasn't, it was crazy because I graduated drug court. I'm the guy that went to drug court.

You know, addicts were master manipulators. We are, I think, one of the smartest people when it comes through getting our way, right? So the first day in drug court, I walk in, meet up with the guy. I begin to think, all right, in my brain not knowing, but I'm already knowing what I'm doing, I make friends with the guy doing the drug testing. I mean, that's just what we do. And I never forget walking in. and I was dirty, you know what I mean?

They don't lab me. They've been, you know, in the whole 16 years of my Matthews, I was only sober three months, and it was when I was in drug court, and I finally ended up, I was still cooking dope every day, and I was still doing the things. And I never forget, I just walked in there,

and I knew I was hot, I knew I was dirty, so I brought him piss with me. And when I brought him piss with me, I just dropped my drawers, and then all of a sudden, I just took piss out of my pocket and just poured it in the cup. And he's like, what are you doing?

I said, I don't know, but I'm sorry I'll never do it again. So I think I had them on the hook then. I really meant in my mind that I would never do it again, but of course I did it again. I'm an addict, you know, so I began to graduate drug court, totally hot, totally cooking dope, totally in the madness still. I was getting ready to get hardcore in the madness. I just left the gambling boat.

I was getting ready to meet up with the machine lady the next morning. I only had $5,800 in my pocket. you know that was machine money i was going to re-up after i got my cut uh and you know i was only had like scales and baggies and like a half eight ball meth nothing crazy uh knocked on the door at seven 30 in the morning it's probation and pro it may be closer to eight but knocked on the door and i didn't know it was them i opened the door and i like oh crap so then i go to throw something and uh then they walk in they find the scales they find the baggies uh they come to just check on me after drug court which is supposed to expunge all that but i never reported

So I've never done like the last initial setup, you know, to talk to them. So they walked in and they rated me, of course, didn't find that much. But they got me for trafficking methamphetamines on top of my five-year sentence, so they sentenced me to eight years. So had you completed drug court successfully and gave up that lifestyle and the drugs, you never would have went to prison? Oh, definitely, yeah. I think so.

I just wasn't ready. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't ready when I got to jail, you know. I mean, I was wanting to all would do the right thing, but I said to walk in jail and people knew me and I would begin to hustle in jail because the only thing I ever known. I mean, that's the worst thing. If you stay in addiction for so many years, how do you straighten up? You know, it doesn't happen as magically as you want it to happen, you know,

because, you know, you've got other people in jail and then they're hoaxing to do this. I mean, I think that poses a great question, too. Is the system, you know, correct in that way? Because you're taking people that are committing crime and putting them with more people that have committed crime or are still committing crime in prison. is that necessarily helping them reform? I don't know. It's a tough thing.

Well, that's kind of, that's what I do today. You know, I went to a D.O.C. program, six-month program. That wasn't what worked for me. I got it, you know, I got involved in church. Not that I'm religious, but, you know, I do believe in Christianity. I'm a pastor of a church, but I kind of believe a lot differently in a lot of the ways I've been taught. I've been church, church so much. But I got, it was, it was neat because I, I know.

knew that day I wanted to do something different my life on June 26th, 2012. I wanted to do something different. I didn't know how to do it. And then I began to put action in play. I was the guy that, you know, jailhouse religion, I would carry my Bible. I'm going to take on hell with a squirt gun. I'm going to do all these things and the mighty works of God and do all this stuff. And it just didn't work that way. It was a long, slow process for me. We are learned behavior modification, which is I exactly don't believe in at all. I'm going to get a lot of slack off this. But I just think love and tolerance and encouragement is what gets people sober. I have a program that I just, I believe in a different way.

And, you know, it works for some. It works for most. It works for a lot of people. I've seen more success with that than behavior modification. Love and tolerance is our code. You know, so I guess I got out of the DOC program or Department of Corrections and wanted to do something different. And that's the kind of how I started.

How old were you when you went to president? I was 36 or seven and you're a white guy 36 that goes to prison are you given a hard time at all When I'm a prison I'm a class D killer from the state of Kentucky There's just we just I think it's just a talk we call prison it's a class D jail So what does that mean for someone that doesn't know it's it's work release You could go out during the day after you get classified and all that I was supposed to go the road The farm I was actually boasts to go do state time but where I got my five years up front from drug court and then I got three years stacked on top which made me a C, but time it all calculated went through.

I missed having to go to the rotary farm, which I should have went. But in state of Kentucky, anything non-drug violent ten years unless you go to a Class D facility. Yeah. So that's kind of where I bounced around to different county jails. So very easy going. Yeah, it kind of was. It was, you know, people going to say what it is, but yeah, it was pretty easy going. What are some of the guys there for charge-wise?

Just mostly drugs. Mostly drugs. Nonviolent drug offenders. Okay. It was, you know, also people coming out of doing a 20-year stint, they had to go first, you know, the county jail class D to get out. No. So you have, that's going towards the end of the sentence.

You know, you'll have them there. But, you know, like I said, I couldn't even get right in jail. I'd always seem to land good jobs. But, you know, I got kicked out of the, my first county jail I was in. And then I got shipped. I got kicked out of my first sap program for eating Lville, trading Reesey Cups. Like, I'm just a kid that don't follow rules.

So I just, I don't know, I have a complex with it. No, you said you hustled in prison. Can you describe, like, the hustle you built up and how much money you would make? I mean, people, I just don't really blow it up. You know, I made money. I made money on phone cards. I can make as much money as I wanted, but I've always been kind of a different kind of character. I really like to help people in a way.

And so I'd always have boxes, and I had money on the outside. and I had, so I would, I took care of a lot, I just kind of helped people, you know, like, you know, like a lot of the two for one, stores and stuff, I was just never into it. Sometimes I'd get took advantage of and stuff and I'm just like, you're going to get me once, but you're going to do it twice. And I just, you know, it's one of the things. I had more phone time than I could ever spend because, you know, you're getting seven suboxin strips in or with four or five subicade or with a half eight ball or meth or ball of meth that's in a county jail. You can live pretty large for a little while, you know, like, and, and I did it. even want to. So it was kind of just giving it away to the people that my cousin was in there was aggravating me and I would give it to him. And I wouldn't, didn't want anything to do with it because

I really wanted to do something different in my life. But if it's all you ever known, it's a, it's a process. How does that stuff get smuggled in? Is it through a guard or through some other process? It's so easy when you're on work release. I mean, there's just one guy, I don't know how you do it, but he keestered about a half pound of backer. Do you say he keistered it? Oh, yeah. So what's keystering for the people that don't know? Oh, yeah, we just, you, you, duct tape it and put it up to the ass, you know, that's what you do. You tape it down and compress it, compress it, and compress it, I put it in plastic and tape it up, and that's what you do, you know, put it inside. How much is it that's getting duct taped?

He can almost put a pound. I never seen a pound. I swear, I've never seen somebody, like, could do this, and he would bring it in with the Suboxone. And are you, like, hesitant to, like, smoke it or try it after, have bent up someone's ass? Yeah, I mean, that's how you do it, you know, like, I mean, they, one thing about it didn't come dirty, because, you know, you have to cut it up and they take a lot of, one thing about convicts, we're pretty smart when it comes to being clean, you know, it's kind of what you do, you learn that, you learn that respect when you go to go to jail. So it was, it was nothing nasty. Yeah. But I guess the initial first pullout might be, but I just, I couldn't picture it.

I couldn't either. Yeah. Like, you always hear the jokes like, what do you hide in your ass and stuff? I've never seen that in prison and I would never do that or try something that's been up in someone's asked. Yeah. In the federal prison system, they have the federal prison system. little thumb phones. Yeah. And I've heard stories of guys putting that up like an ass, but I don't know. It's disgusting. I couldn't imagine.

Yeah, every time I was like, I don't know about this. What are they using for the currency, like to pay for the drugs and whatnot? Because you guys don't have like cash, right? Just phone time. Just everything's phone time? Phone time and commissary and, you know. What's like a top commissary item at the prisons you were at? It was just, you know, just pops.

It was so in the class C, this kind of, you know, you get coffee, you know, you know, It's Keefi coffee. Yeah, all you guys had Keefe too in the yellow bags. Yeah, yeah, Keefe and then you could get the, we had store-bought stuff at some of the jails, and we get big things of vanilla creamer. Yeah. It's kind of like typical. I remember at the detention center I was at like every Wednesday you could order from a restaurant,

like a local restaurant. Yeah, we did too. Yeah, we could order pizza once a week. I think that's great. Like they should have that across the board. I mean, why not? The prison makes money, you know, the inmates can eat good. Yeah, I think so too.

That's what kind of did. How long do you end up spending in prison? Just 31 months. 31, 24 in county and then another six-month programs. This is on an eight-year sentence. So you did about half, or less than half. Yeah, I've done, yeah, a lot less. It has, well, but I've done 24 months.

So you do 15% in the state of Kentucky on an eight-year sentence. So in 19 months, I went up for pro, but where I got kicked out of a SAT program for eating Elville, I didn't get to, they flopped me for another six months. So then I had to go to another six months, and then I go up for pro again, and then they flopped me to a SAT program. So you only have to do 15 months?

You have to do 19 months on an eight-year sentence, 15%. You know, the South always has like a central South, whatever, has a bad rep for being really tough on drugs and crime. I'm surprised that you could get out so early on a drug crime? You go 45 minutes down the road to Tennessee, and you're going to do half. You know, you get four, you do two. You know, it's kind of simple. That's kind of wild.

Yeah. That's stricter than like in some other states, too. So it's just called where you're at. Yeah, but then you meet some. some guys in the Fed's that got 20 years in there doing 85% on weed on fucking pot that's crazy yeah it doesn't make sense at all is it the whole system's backwards when you got out what are like some struggles you faced are you dealing with relapse at all or are you completely clean you want to focus on your life yeah yeah I was really I was head strong you know I actually answered

my call on the preach while I was locked up uh that was which is very interesting uh got out want to take on held the squirt gun I'll just never forget the little things that gave me the strength every time you say no that the someone's seeing you're like hey man i'm called to preach and people's like what the hell you know like this guy's really you know like because people that knew me knew something was up just like you was saying earlier like people like is this really true is it true and i'd be like i'm called to preach or he's going to scam the church you know like so i don't even take a salary still to this day because of that like people think i'm going to rob them you know because i was so into the madness you know i was very capable of doing things you know when you

robbed your own father for for the games or for machine money that you got to cut of in a way but you'd still still you know like i got banned for pretty much every game room that that that wasn't mine because i could go in and get in the machines and manipulate them and and win and so it's just is just a crazy life is it fine is it do you find it's hard to get people to follow and believe in you as a preacher because of your past well sort of i guess you would say uh we i started with preaching a church had six people and went through different denominations at first. Now the church, we can't even set enough people in it on Sunday morning. It's completely full. A lot of them with clients of mine from Lake Common Recovery. But it's such a different atmosphere. It's kind of people that's kind of

fed up with the BS they've learned in church the whole life and just to love people and accept people and to encourage people and to let them know they are powerful and they have favor and they have choice and they're loved. So it's a different, different atmosphere. than what you would call your church right down the road, I guess. Yeah. I mean, that's what works nowadays, though, being different, taking a new spin on things, a new approach. Yeah, just making about Christianity is based on what Christ did.

Religion is based on what you do. So based on anything on what you do, we've already failed so much in our life, I can't do it. So that's why I've really believed the way I believe, my theology, we all have different God thoughts. I don't say my God thoughts are better than yours, my PTSD, my trauma, my background, my education is lead me to believe the way I believe.

So I do it in such a general way. No matter how you believe, we're all a little different. We don't have to exactly believe the same thing. But, you know, I get a lot of slack from people because I am the grace guy. And I believe in, I believe in it's so, it's so cheap, it's free. You know, it's like, so I'm definitely the grace guy. And I just think some people have such a low view of God's law. They think they can do it.

I have such a high view. I know I can. Yeah. So. Do you have any triggers like to relapse again? Or how do you stay away from wanting to go down those paths or the background? I just never, you know, after 10 years, 11 years now, I just never really had, I just was done. You know, like when you finally know that you're completely done.

And walking out of prison, you know, open up a rehab really helped. You know, I took the house that was good day and cooking meth in it and started a 16-bed rehab facility. Me and in that house. Yeah, in that house. And I can go in, I can talk to the clients, and I can show them things in the house and show them things.

Like, I never cooked dope in the house. So, but, yeah, it was the big orange stickers. And, you know, like the big, you know, me being in the front pages of paper with the guys in the white suits walking around and stuff, like the Martians looking guys, you know. And so it was, to people to see that living right on Main Street in 27 and Somerset,

to see the transformation, and people still, they wonder, you know. Do you think all that shit that happened to you led you to your purpose now? I think so. I think I really do. I mean, I think all that led me to the purpose. I was kind of agreeing but not agreeing with some of the guys of heard speak. I'm like, eh, you know what, if I had to do it over it, I probably would pick a lot of

different things. You know, I would like my first daughter to have seen a different life than she had to see. I'm sure she'll have some PTSD, even though she works in my HR department now. Your daughter does? Yeah, she's 19, just got married. You know, she makes TikToks about how her father, she was kind of funny the other day. She's like, we're going to the gas station to get a bug juice, but we're really going for a drug deal. You know, like, I mean, my daughter at seven years old know what I was doing and knew I was selling dope and knew I was the good father.

So I wanted to do it at the gas station down the road instead of bringing people to my house. That's my best thinking. As someone that runs like recovery houses and whatnot, is it tough to interact with people? that are facing the same struggles that you faced once upon the time? To what now? Like in regards to like, you know, like drug use or alcohol use, anyone that's affected by that, is that hard for you to sit with them and work through it? No, that's, that's, I guess, my purpose.

You know, that's kind of what I do. I go into a treatment center every single morning that I own, like coming to recovery. I go in and tell them my experience, strength, and hope, and they can tell the realness of the stories and how really my life has been transformed. And I teach them how big of a mess that I still really am, how I don't have it all figured out. And I'm just getting up and showing up every day and putting one foot in front of the other with my willingness and stop making excuses. I don't do it perfect. Like my treatment centers, I've been open for over three years.

We've grown like wildfire, but people's like, man, you've been so obedient, man. God's really used you. And I'm like, God really uses me because I show up. It's not because I've been obedient. obedient to the fact that I show up, but not because I've done it perfect. You know, if God's going to use perfect people, there's nobody to use. Like, we're all equal. There's no one better than me. When I look at an addict, I look at myself, I like, there's no one better than you, no one better than me. We're all equal on this earth.

And so I have a different philosophy of just encouraging addicts to do something different in life because they can see me 22-year in addiction, selling drugs, owning game rooms, what I do to completely change in my life to help others. And I still hustle. I teach them how I started with an $8 an hour job to two years later quitting a $42 in our job to run my own business. And you can do it. And that's what I tell people. Like there's nothing you can't do. And I ask people, what would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail? And that's what you're called to do. Because we're all called to something. And we all have our heart desires to do. And I teach people that God says, delight yourself of me, biblical, and he gives you desires your heart. So I really

encourage people to really dig deep and you don't need me telling what you need to do and how to run your podcast. You already know in your heart the way you want to do it. And that's the way it should be done. So, and telling people that and really believing in them, you can see some people take off and do some wonderful things. Absolutely. Now, is it like hard to navigate as someone with a felony on your record in your line of work and owning businesses and being an entrepreneur. Are there, is it easy for someone to do that or are there obstacles? I haven't really seen many obstacles. I think there's, it gets a time that, that's me with the 10th grade education, I can't read or write well. I thought, let me see,

let's look here, 54, 50,000 unanswered emails. I can't put words together on paper. If you ever see me text you, I can't write. I can't write. I can't write a Facebook, sweet about my wife or about my kids without someone doing it for me, learning that I don't have to do it all the day and get people like I just hired a president for the company. You know, he's a veteran in the state of Kentucky. He's wonderful at what he does. So I grew too big. So I know now that I need to lay my title down or not necessarily lay it down, but, you know, I have over 100 employees. And a lot of those are addicts. And then I have a lot of professional people, doctors, I have clinicians, you know, probably 25 clinical clinicians that work for me.

So I think it's a lot of people we want to use excuses and we want to say that we can't do this. So what I try to empower people that you can do all things? There's nothing you can't do. What would you do if you knew you wouldn't fail and do it and go for it? We have nothing to lose. And maybe that I'm so radical and crazy because I'm content no matter what. I'm really content if I have to start back over again. You know, I put it all in the line.

We bought a motel last week that, uh, to house addicts. I mean, a big motel, you know, like it costs a lot of money and it's not even going to be profitable. But there's other ways, no other than incomes, that makes up for it. And that's to really give back. I got into, you know, the treatment world because I just couldn't stand the way other people were doing it. They didn't really, they want to milk people through to get the insurance money, but then there's no aftercare. There's nobody taking them to work. There's nobody making sure that they're paying bills. There's no one to teach them how to pay bills.

And so we kind of started a different program that people can come and succeed and start from nothing and start over. Have you had the conversation with your kids about your past and what you've been through and who you are today? Because if they Googled you, I'm sure they could find stuff from your past. And I'm sure, you know, as they get older, kids might say things or vice versa or whatever. How do you deal with that? I'm just so open about it.

There's not even, I don't even hide anything. Like if you meet me and I'm riding the golf car down the Suddivision and, you know, you're a doctor and I'm like, hey, you know, I talk to them and I let them know who I am. I'm not, I'm not scared of who I am. You know, that makes sense. I don't care that that was a two-time convicted felon. It doesn't bother me. I love to tell people my story so they can be open about their story.

What we do, we keep everything in. and we cover it with a band-aid, and we can meet more people with our brokenness than our goodness. So by me telling my story within a few minutes to anybody I meet, they're almost getting a little scared at first, and then all of a sudden they begin to open up and talk about their ugly self about their, their ugly self about their selves, and their truths, and their hurts and their habits and the things that they've done. And so it's actually almost, it's a good thing that I can get so honest about it. And my kids, I'm going to always be honest with them about it. What about your wife?

What does she think about everything that you've been through? What were some of those conversations like when you had to explain things to her? I think she just, everybody already knew, you know, like it was never been a secret. And so it was, like I said, she freaks out sometimes when I tell her stories or I'm like, this was that I've done that and I've done this there and I robbed that place and, you know, breaking into business. I broke in that door and done this. And she's like, who are you?

You know, like, and people don't get it, but people that know me, like, to see your friends that really come to you that really know you, like, we can't hide from our friends. There's nothing that we can hide, like, people that you really done crimes with. They look at you, they know you, they know your insides. They know you, you know, like. So one of my guys that, well, two of them, one of my best friends actually came to me, went to treatment, one of them went to treatment, got sober. he used to, I would get the picture ready, or I would blow the gas and he'd get the picture ready. When he would get the picture, I'd get the gas ready, I would, you know, we worked as a team. We became, and then he got, I went to prison, and then he went to prison, and then now he actually runs the drug testing lab for me.

So we were still working in the laboratory together, but we don't work in the same time of lab. And my friends started coming to me, and they started seeing the real difference. And I had many friends that got sober, but then I have many friends that don't. don't. But I have people like they see the difference. They know it and they want it. And it works. Are you cautious of who you spend your time with and let into your circle? Somewhat, I guess. I mean, not so much. I mean, because I guess because of my mental health, I mean, and the way I struggle, I don't let a lot of people in, not because I don't want to. It's like I struggle with giving attention to the people I love the most. And it's really to do with my mental

health that's to do with my ADHD, to do with my, have them to work 27, I have to do this, you know, and it's almost sick a little bit, you know, where I love my family, my father, my wife, my kids, and I neglect them a lot of times. And that's something I got to get better at, you know. You work on it a little bit each day and, you know, helps there to reach out, therapy, anything like that, talking to, it goes wonders, just talking to someone. Yeah, I think it helps just knowing that I'm a mess, knowing that I don't have to pretend to be the great, grand, old father on Facebook because I'm not. I show up every day. I show up every day for my wife. I don't always do the right things, but I show up and I put effort in it. And I think that's part of it.

How do you think people would describe you now? Like if we had your wife here today and I asked her that question, how would she describe you? Crazy. Crazy? In a good way? Both. I mean, definitely she's a big supporter. I think she would, she's never seen the side of me that I talked to her about sometimes. But she loves it. Yeah, she's seen glimpse of it before, you know, get a little upset or something. But she luckily, she don't have to see that. But she does have to deal with the workaholic side. She has to deal with the always have to be doing something side. But there's good that comes with that too. They're definitely, my kids are not going to ever, I hope they don't ever to worry about the things that I had to worry about or, or, and I don't say I really have to worry about them that much myself. But, you know, like, I want to see my kids have things and do things. and not be a financial burden. And so I try to, like I said, I think she would just have to say that, you know, I'm just crazy.

What would your one takeaway be for someone that's listening to this? What do you want them to get out of your story, your message? I think you can do all things. There's nothing that you can't do in your life. There's, you know, there's really, you can hold yourself back and you can use excuses, but you have to become willing, willing to take suggestions. and willing to stop making excuses and become willing to show up even when it's hard. Like a lot of days are hard to get up.

I mean, you know, it's hard to go and you don't want to and you have to do it anyway. And that's the only way you're really going to succeed and do something different to your life has put a lot of effort into it. It's not going to be given to no one. You know, I think back in my life, I'm so glad that I guess no one's really ever handed to me that I always had to work for it. You know, I got that one car gave to me and I put it on the railroad tracks. So, and I had to earn, you know, everything.

Like if I had to get up and work and try and try over and over. And I think if I could tell anybody anything, it was, you know, you can do anything you choose in life if you just put the work behind it. And you don't have to do it perfect and you can keep messing up. But you can't not ever stop showing up. Yeah. And good things happen when you stay focused, consistent and keep showing up. That's amazing what can come from it. Yeah, like, you know, we, I have over 100 employees now, you know, and, and I don't say that, like, oh, you know, like, it's, it's because I keep showing up and I keep giving back.

And I walk into a room and try to give my life away instead of take and try to meet people right where they're at. Like, there's, you know, there's, there's so much judgment in the world today. And I want to have a different look where I just love people and accept people and just look at them and see their value. Once you go through some hard things in your life, you know, from, you know, I don't know how long we, got, but I have a pretty interesting little story about something that happened to me when I was young. You know, at the age of 16, I made a stupid decision, and I went home from work with some guys. I got raped, and I began to talk about that here in the last year or so, and it actually gave me freedom and actually gave me where actually can almost have compassion for the guy that did it,

which I shouldn't, but I do because what kind of pain he must have felt. Like, we've done some bad things in her life and we felt some and and and people's done some bad things to us but what made him do that and when i finally started realizing that it's okay to talk about that i don't have to be that manly to to someone to that wasn't my choice as a 16-year-old kid for someone to rape me you know that's that's hard you know that's hard to talk about that on a podcast it's hard to talk about that for the whole world to hear but there's so many stories like that and we can talk about it you know it's confessing your faults one turn over the hill or just getting open and been able to say, hey, I've had some bad stuff happening. I had some bad choices.

But, you know, it's okay. It's okay that I don't have the perfect life. It's okay that I can learn from my mistakes. And I don't have to put on the image of everything's perfect today because it's not. Has it really taken you a lot of years to really like process everything you've just said and be able to be open and talk about it? Because a lot of people can't do that and they can't talk about it. openly something that that's dramatically happened to them in that regards yeah i would just encourage them to get someone that you can because it's so freeing like as soon as i said it's like wow like it's no longer it's no it's it's not even there no more like it's the thought of it of me just totally forgiving the person that hurt me is what helped me you know and just total forgiveness

and do you think there is the ability to forgive when someone does something to that caliber even to you, you know, we hear about it happening to family members or people we know, but when it happens to you, I mean, that's just a, that's a different level of forgiveness. I think so, but, you know, like I tell people, and I guess you practice what you preach, we want God to hold grudges against the same type of people we hold grudges against. And I don't know what made him do that, but there was something off, something that's sick, and I almost have compassion for, because he's, was that messed up? You know, I mean, I don't know if that makes sense, but that's just a,

the reality of it, like, I just totally forgive. Do you think that instance or incident set things in motion for the rest of your life? I think things like that, a lot of, yeah, of keeping it in and keeping it hidden and keeping being sick about it. And yeah, it definitely does. Like any PTSD from that kind of really hurts and harms, and you can make excuses after excuses, but there's some bad, there's some things that's happened to all of us that it's really made us sick that's really hurt us. Yeah. Well, Michael, thank you so much for sharing that and opening up

today and just talking about your story and walking us through it. You have a great message. Really a truly tremendous story and it's a powerful one that I think is really going to resonate with a lot of our listeners and watchers. And, you know, thank you for traveling all the way out here. You had a long travel day today. Now we got a two-hour car ride back to the city. But I'm driving you this time, not my dad. I was wondering about, I don't know, about it and make it a couple times. No, it is a log drive out here. But yeah, man, it's been great talking to you, Michael. Yeah, thank you for having us. Thank you for having me and Andrew. And we really appreciate you. I was, I was always stalking you before I got the invite. I'm like, wow,

that's cool. And I didn't even know about locked in. I only knew about the TikTok side of it. Yeah, that's where I, well, that's where I started just doing the car selfie videos on TikTok and stuff. And then got the idea for the podcast. And now, you know, we're doing this. We're rocking. And it's great and you got a lot of good things going too we'll plug your information into the bio of the episode and you know hopefully it gets out there more to more people yeah definitely definitely thank you probably yep thank you